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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sun Nov  2 10:37:01 2003
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Subject: [eap] EAP WG Last call on EAP State Machine draft
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This is to announce EAP WG Last Call on the EAP State Machine draft, prior
to requesting IESG approval to publish it as an Informational
RFC.  The draft is available for inspection here:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.txt

EAP WG Last Call will complete on November 19, 2003.

Please send your comments to eap@frascone.com, in the format recommended
in the EAP Issues list:

http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sun Nov  2 12:16:59 2003
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Subject: [eap] Issue 190: Inconsistent capitalization
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Issue 190: Inconsistent Capitalization
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: 11/2/2003
Reference:
Document: RFC2284bis
Comment type: 'E'ditorial
Priority: '1' Should fix
Section: Various
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

The term 'Code' is inconsistently capitalized.  When this refers to the
Code field in the EAP header, it should be capitalized.  Also the term
should not be used when referring to other fields, since this is
confusing.

Section 2.2: "EAP packets with codes of Success or Failure" => "EAP
packets with Codes of Success or Failure"

Section 5.7: "Expanded Nak and Legacy Nak packets share the same code, but
must be treated differently because they have a different format." =>
"Expanded Nak and Legacy Nak packets share the same Type, but must be
treated differently because they have a different format."

Section 6.2: "Method Type 255 is allocated for Experimental use, such as
testing of new EAP methods before a permanent Type code is allocated." =>
"Method Type 255 is allocated for Experimental use, such as testing of new
EAP methods before a permanent Type is allocated."

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov  3 08:57:04 2003
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Extensible Authentication Protocol (eap) WG

Chair(s):
Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Jari Arkko <Jari.Arkko@ericsson.com>

Monday, November 10, 2003
1930 - 2200

Preliminaries (10 minutes)
   Agenda Bashing
   Bluesheets
   Minutes
   Document Status
   Issue Status: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html

WG Work Items (70 minutes)
-------------

RFC 2284bis (10 minutes), Henrik Lefkowetz
http://www.levkowetz.com/pub/ietf/drafts/eap/rfc2284bis/draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-07.d.html

EAP State Machine (20 minutes), Pasi Eronen
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.txt

EAP Key Framework, Bernard Aboba (40 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-01.txt

Drafts relating to WG work items (30 minutes)
--------------------------------

Network Selection, Farid Adrangi (10 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-and-selection-00.txt

EAP Key Derivation for Multiple Applications, Joe Salowey (10 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt

The Compound Binding Problem, Jose Puthenkulam (10 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-puthenkulam-eap-binding-04.txt

EAP methods - Status & Issues (20 minutes)
-----------------------------

PEAPv2, Jose Salowey (5 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-josefsson-pppext-eap-tls-eap-07.txt

EAP SIM/AKA, Pasi Eronen (5 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-haverinen-pppext-eap-sim-12.txt
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-pppext-eap-aka-11.txt

EAP Smartcard, Pascal Urien (5 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-urien-eap-smartcard-03.txt

EAP-IKEv2,  Hannes Tschofenig (5 minutes)
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tschofenig-eap-ikev2-02.txt

Roadmap (10 minutes), WG Chairs and ADs
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov  3 11:10:03 2003
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Subject: [eap] binding draft issues 64, 65, 70, 88, 89, 123, new1, new2
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I have taken a look at the issues I filed earlier
on the binding draft and their resolution in the new
documents.

I'm fine with the resolutions of issues 88, 89, 123
which I filed myself or were filed by my colleagues.

I'm also personally fine with the resolutions of
the other open issues 64, 65, 70, though it would
be better if Bernard and Dan could also confirm that
they are OK with them.

In addition, I have performed a new review of the
draft version 04, with the comments available at:

   http://www.piuha.net/~jarkko/publications/eap/binding-04-review.txt

Most of these issues are editorial in nature, and I
think that the document is in general in relatively
good shape. However, one bigger issue is whether section
4 should stay in the document -- currently it goes
into quite deep level of detail including specific
format extensions of PEAP, which itself isn't and RFC.
I would suggest deleting section 4 and only keep a some
key general parts from it.

For Bernard's issue list, I'll provide below two separate
issues, the editorial and section4 issues:

Submitter name: Jari Arkko
Submitter email address: jarkko@piuha.net
Date first submitted: Nov 3, 2003
Reference: http://www.piuha.net/~jarkko/publications/eap/binding-04-review.txt
Document: EAP Binding
Comment type: 'E'ditorial
Priority: '1' Should fix
Section: Multiple
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

See reference for details.

Submitter name: Jari Arkko
Submitter email address: jarkko@piuha.net
Date first submitted: Nov 3, 2003
Reference: http://www.piuha.net/~jarkko/publications/eap/binding-04-review.txt
Document: EAP Binding
Comment type: 'T'echnical
Priority: 'S' Must fix
Section: Multiple
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

Section 4 seems to go in too specific details about
PEAP extensions. Consider cutting it to just the general
parts, e.g. CSK derivation.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov  3 13:33:01 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] binding draft issues 64, 65, 70, 88, 89, 123, new1, new2
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> I'm fine with the resolutions of issues 88, 89, 123
> which I filed myself or were filed by my colleagues.

OK. I've marked these as resolved.

> I'm also personally fine with the resolutions of
> the other open issues 64, 65, 70, though it would
> be better if Bernard and Dan could also confirm that
> they are OK with them.

I believe that Issue 65 and 70 are resolved, but the organization of the
first section still needs work so I will keep #64 open.

> I would suggest deleting section 4 and only keep a some
> key general parts from it.

I agree.  Much of the material in this section belongs in the PEAP draft
(and in fact seems to have been copied there in the latest version).

All that is really needed here is general guidance on how a solution can
be constructed.  There are a number of other WGs now dealing with the MiTM
problem (IKEv2, NFS CCM, etc.) so that this could be generally helpful.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov  3 13:58:03 2003
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Subject: RE: [eap] binding draft issues 64, 65, 70, 88, 89, 123, new1, new2
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From: "Puthenkulam, Jose P" <jose.p.puthenkulam@intel.com>
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Thanks Jari & Bernard for help in closing the old issues.

Also thanks for your detailed review of the 04 draft. Will try to
address them in the next revision.

Regarding the section 4 reference solution, will try to see how best to
address your suggestions.

best regards,
jose

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]=20
> On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:56 AM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [eap] binding draft issues 64, 65, 70, 88, 89,=20
> 123, new1, new2
>=20
>=20
> > I'm fine with the resolutions of issues 88, 89, 123
> > which I filed myself or were filed by my colleagues.
>=20
> OK. I've marked these as resolved.
>=20
> > I'm also personally fine with the resolutions of
> > the other open issues 64, 65, 70, though it would
> > be better if Bernard and Dan could also confirm that
> > they are OK with them.
>=20
> I believe that Issue 65 and 70 are resolved, but the=20
> organization of the
> first section still needs work so I will keep #64 open.
>=20
> > I would suggest deleting section 4 and only keep a some
> > key general parts from it.
>=20
> I agree.  Much of the material in this section belongs in the=20
> PEAP draft
> (and in fact seems to have been copied there in the latest version).
>=20
> All that is really needed here is general guidance on how a=20
> solution can
> be constructed.  There are a number of other WGs now dealing=20
> with the MiTM
> problem (IKEv2, NFS CCM, etc.) so that this could be=20
> generally helpful.
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>=20
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Tue Nov  4 13:40:04 2003
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From: John Vollbrecht <jrv@umich.edu>
To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 189: Handling of the identity response
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--On Friday, October 31, 2003 2:50 PM -0800 Joseph Salowey 
<jsalowey@cisco.com> wrote:

> >
> > The first case - where the method uses the Identity Response
> > data from the
> > previous request as an identity does not seem right.  In
> > thinking about it
> > I am not sure it actually happens in any implementations [as
> > opposed to
> > selecting the method instance based on the Response Data].
>
> [Joe] I was under the impression that EAP-OTP required the identity.
>
They do require and identity, but it is not clear it is the EAP identity 
response but the identity as processed by the NAS and (if necessary) 
inserted in the RADIUS identity attribute.  I think this is the same as MD5.

This is a bit fuzzy, and I seem to recall some conversation about this. 
However, I don't see how it would work if, for example, something like 
Broker/joe@company.com were used.  Certainly the user would not understand 
"Broker".

-- John

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov  5 19:07:16 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
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Subject: [eap] 802.1X/EAP State Machine Issues (fwd)
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Note the following excerpts from recent 802.1X ballots, relating to issues
with the 802.1X and EAP state machines.

NAME:           Les Bell
COMMENT TYPE:   TR
CLAUSE:         9.4.1.1.3
PAGE:           76
LINE:           19
COMMENT START:
The value txPeriod is not used in any of the state machines.  I think this
may now belong to the EAP state machine, which is not in this document, so
it should not be referenced in this section.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Remove the definition of txPeriod from this section and section 9.4.1.2.2.
Deprecate the equivalent MIB object, dot1xAuthTxPeriod.
Update the reference for this object in the MIB to 802.1X-2001.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME:           Les Bell
COMMENT TYPE:   TR
CLAUSE:         9.4.1.1.3
PAGE:           76
LINE:           25
COMMENT START:
The value maxReq is not used in any of the state machines.  I think this
may now belong to the EAP state machine, which is not in this document, so
it should not be referenced in this section.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Remove the definition of maxReq from this section and section 9.4.1.2.2.
Deprecate the equivalent MIB object, dot1xAuthMaxReq.
Update the reference for this object in the MIB to 802.1X-2001.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.1.9
PAGE: 40
LINE: 13
COMMENT START:
Definition appears missing.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Figure 4-6 refers to "txWhen" but this does not appear defined anywhere.
Should the reference be removed or should a definition be added? Or did I
miss the definition?
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.9.4
PAGE: 61
LINE: 38-42
COMMENT START:
As noted in the EAP state machine document, the eapSuccess state can be
reached without receiving an EAP Success and the eapFail state can be
reached without receiving an EAP Failure.  So I think the text is
misleading.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Recommend that this be rephrased to say:
"If the higher layer indicates that authentication has been successful
(eapSuccess) then the state machine transitions to the SUCCESS state.
If the higher layer indicates that authentication has been unsuccessful
(eapFail) then the state machine transitions to the FAIL state."
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.2.2
PAGE: 45
LINE: 21
COMMENT START:
The definition of eapolEap does not take into account the Code field in
the EAP packet.  For example, the Backend authenticator (Figure 8-15)  machine should not
transition from REQUEST to RESPONSE state based on receipt of *any*  EAP packet, only
EAP packets with Code=2 (Response). Similarly, only packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
(Success) or 4 (Failure) are relevant to the Supplicant state machine.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Change definition to the following:
eapolEap.  This variable is set TRUE by an external entity if an EAPOL PDU
carrying a Packet Type of EAP-Packet, and an appropriate Code field is
received.  In the Backend Authentication State Machine, eapolEap is set
TRUE when Code=2 (Response).  In the Supplicant State Machine, eapolEap is
set TRUE when Code=1 (Request), 3 (Success) or 4 (Failure).
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.4.1.1
PAGE: 50
LINE: 15
COMMENT START:
The definition of portMode does not seem right since the values
in the text do not include the value "portControl" included in
Figure 8-10.  I suspect that this was actually the definition of
portControl, and that the definition of portMode was ommitted.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Change "portMode" to "portControl".  Add definition of portMode, which
according to Figure 8-10 can take the value "portControl".
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.4
PAGE: 49
LINE: 19
COMMENT START:
The transition should be from the HELD state to the RESTART state on
quietWhile==0, not to the CONNECTING state.  Once this is done it is not
clear why RESTART and CONNECTING need to be separate states.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Change arrow from HELD to CONNECTING on quietWhile==0 to point to the
RESTART state instead.  Merge the RESTART and CONNECTING states into a
CONNECTING state.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.4.6
PAGE: 53
LINE: 11
COMMENT START:
I don't understand why the Authenticator PAE state machine transitions
from CONNECTING to AUTHENTICATING state on eapSuccess or eapFail. It
seems like the only cases in which this can occur are the canned Success
or canned Failure cases.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Change the text to "If the higher layer is ready to send an initial
EAP-Request message, the state machine transitions to the AUTHENTICATING
state."
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.4
PAGE: 49
LINE: 27
COMMENT START:
I don't understand why the Authenticator PAE state machine transitions
from CONNECTING to AUTHENTICATING state on eapSuccess or eapFail. It
seems like the only cases in which this can occur are the canned Success
or canned Failure cases.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Delete eapSuccess || eapFail from Figure 8-10 as a condition for the
transition from CONNECTING to AUTHENTICATING.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.11.4
PAGE: 67
LINE: 19
COMMENT START:
I don't understand why the Supplicant PAE state machine transitions
from CONNECTING to AUTHENTICATING state on eapSuccess or eapFail. It
seems like the only cases in which this can occur are the canned Success
or canned Failure cases.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Delte the sentence: "If the higher layer has decided it is satisfied with
an eapSuccess or eapFail, the Supplicant transitions directly to the
AUTHENTICATING state."
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.11
PAGE: 65
LINE: 23
COMMENT START:
I don't understand why the Supplicant PAE state machine transitions
from CONNECTING to AUTHENTICATING state on eapSuccess or eapFail. It
seems like the only cases in which this can occur are the canned Success
or canned Failure cases.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Delete eapSuccess || eapFail from Figure 8-17 as a condition for the
transition fromnCONNECTING to AUTHENTICATING.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

NAME: Bernard Aboba
COMMENT TYPE: T
CLAUSE: 8.2.11
PAGE: 65
LINE: 15
COMMENT START:
A transition is made to RESTART state from several states (CONNECTING,
AUTHENTICATED, HELD) based on receipt of *any* EAP packet (eapolEap).
It seems like this should only occur if an EAP Request is received and
EAP indicates that methodState==INIT within the EAP state machine.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Change the condition for transition to RESTART from "eapolEap" to
"eapolEap && methodState==INIT".  Include definition of the methodState
variable from the EAP state machine.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sat Nov  8 19:10:04 2003
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Subject: [eap] review of draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt
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Joe, Pasi,

I took a look at your draft draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt.
It looks quite reasonable to me -- thanks for working on it! --
though I do have some comments:

Substantial:

1. The goal of the draft. Is there an intent that some of this
    should be discussed in the eap-keying document? Or would this
    be a later extension to that? Or just for our information?

2. If the security ADs wanted us to name current keys generated
    from EAP, I think its likely that they will require AMSKs
    be named as well. A discussion of the naming is missing, though
    the EMSK itself is named in the document.

3. I'm not sure I like the idea of EMSK Name being derived from
    KDF(EMSK), if there are alternatives. Would it be possible to
    name the EMSK by the EAP SA Name defined in eap-keying (derived
    from nonces), concanated with, say, "EMSK". Similarly, we could
    name each AMSK as the name of the EMSK, concatenated with "AMSK"
    and the key label and application data?

4. Section 3.1, what is the unit of "O"? Bytes or bits?

5. Section 3.3 fails to discuss that if EMSK is going to be
    useful, there's probably going to be some state kept in
    the AAA server.

Editorial:

1. Section 1.2, last paragraph. Missing "." at the end.

2. Section 2.1, s/MSUT/MUST/


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Subject: [eap] REVISED Last Call: 'Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)'
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The IESG has received a request from the Extensible Authentication Protocol 
WG to consider the following document:

- 'Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)'
   <draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-06.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send any comments to the
iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2003-11-26.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-06.txt

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Subject: RE: [eap] REVISED Last Call: 'Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)' to Proposed Standard
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In section 7.2 [c]

Replace "acknowledged result indications" with "protected result
indications". It makes more sense to have the EAP method indicate its
result in a protected manner than making sure the result is
acknowledged.

Also for section 7.4 Man-in-the-middle attacks would it not be
appropriate to add an informative reference to the EAP Binding Draft and
the Nokia Mitm paper.

best regards,
jose




> -----Original Message-----
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> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] REVISED Last Call: 'Extensible Authentication=20
> Protocol (EAP)' to Proposed Standard
>=20
>=20
> The IESG has received a request from the Extensible=20
> Authentication Protocol=20
> WG to consider the following document:
>=20
> - 'Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP)'
>    <draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-06.txt> as a Proposed Standard
>=20
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final comments on this action.  Please send any comments to the
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> The file can be obtained via
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sun Nov  9 08:30:29 2003
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Subject: [eap] some comments on draft-josefsson-pppext-eap-tls-eap-07 (peapv2)
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I read this document on the way to Minneapolis, and have
some questions and comments:

Substantial:

1. Section 1, identity protection. Wouldn't it still be
    possible to have an active attack against identity protection?
    This seems possible
      - if one of the other servers trusted by the CA
        wants to intervene (or do you require specific
        server cert?)
      - if the client won't or can't (network access case)
        check the CRL and the server's key has been compromised

2. Section 1, protected termination and dos attacks. I wonder
    if there still exists a dos attack where the attacker simply
    injects some bad TLS records into the stream. Will this cause
    a disconnect or is there some protection against that?

3. Section 2, the possibility of running zero EAP methods
    in part 2. What would be the usefulness of that over
    running EAP TLS? The ability to send TLVs?

4. Section 2.2.2.1, why is it just a "should" to decide that
    a tunnel compromise error has occurred when an invalid
    Crypto-Binding-TLV is received? And where does it say
    what actions "tunnel compromise error" implies?

5. I wonder if the protocol specification would be clearer
    with a state machine. I'm not 100% convinced that all
    the cases have been covered in the text, and its hard
    to visualize what is happening. Maybe its just me, but...

6. Section 4.7, Connection-Binding TLV. This is very
    interesting! You say that the actual parameters are
    defined by the link layers. But this does not appear
    to suffice for the definition of the format on how
    they are carried in this TLV, or? How would we know
    which parameters and in which order are sent here
    unless the 802.11i, for instance, explicitly said that
    SSID and MAC address were carried inside PEAPv2 in
    a particular way?

7. What is the purpose and semantics of the URI TLV?

8. I'm not sure if Section 5.2 contains enough information
    about the version negotiation and potential downgrade
    attacks involved in PEAPv2 - PEAPv1 choice.

9. Section 5.8 says "Hence, the recommended solution is
    to always deploy authentication methods with protection
    of PEAPv2." Hmm... I would formulate this slightly
    differently if the intent is to avoid mitm problems:
    "Hence, the recommended solution is to deploy
    authentication methods for a given user either always
    with the protection of PEAPv2 or never with PEAPv2."

Editorial:

1. Draft name would probably be more descriptive if it contained
    "peap".

2. Recommended author limit has been exceeded, I think.

3. Section 2.4 has some duplication, e.g. the paragraphs starting
    with "a single tls record may be up to 16384...".

--Jari


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Puthenkulam, Jose P wrote:
> In section 7.2 [c]
> 
> Replace "acknowledged result indications" with "protected result
> indications". It makes more sense to have the EAP method indicate its
> result in a protected manner than making sure the result is
> acknowledged.

Ok. The term is defined in 7.2.1, and the text already requires protection,
I agree that the name "protected result indications" would be appropriate.
Need to change the name then in both 7.2 and 7.2.1 as well as in a few
other places in the document...

> Also for section 7.4 Man-in-the-middle attacks would it not be
> appropriate to add an informative reference to the EAP Binding Draft and
> the Nokia Mitm paper.

Yes, this would be appropriate.

Thanks for your comments.

--Jari


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Presentations for IETF-58 EAP session will be available at
   http://www.piuha.net/~jarkko/publications/eap/ietf-58/

(Not all are there yet -- presenters, please send in yours...)

--Jari

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Issue 193: Peer SM review
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
Reference:
Document: SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 2, 4
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

pp. 5, first paragraph

"pass EAP messages to a Backend Server where the real Authentication
Method resides"

As is made clear later, the pass-through authenticator does *not* forward
all EAP messages to the backend authentication server, only EAP-Responses.
Rephrase to:

"pass EAP-Response messages to a Backend Server where the Authentication
Method resides"

Third paragraph:

The implication is the EAP method demultiplexing depends on the lower
layer. This is not the case because all EAP implementations on all media
must support  demultiplexing (whether they support an authenticator or
peer listener is another issue).

Suggest replacing the paragraph with:

"As noted in RFC 2284bis, Section 2.3, the EAP layer demultiplexes
incoming EAP packets. Packets with Code=2 (Response) are delivered to the
Authenticator state  machine, while packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
(Success) or 4 (Failure) are  delivered to the Peer state machine."

Page 9, Figure 3.

The notation used later (Figure 6) is more clear than the use of the "|"
operator as in Figure 3. I'd recommend adopting the Figure 6 notation
everywhere.

It would appear to me that methodState is a variable that needs to be
exported from the peer to the lower layer. This is so that lower layer
state  machines such as 802.1X can know whether their own state machines
should be  affected or not.

The INITIALIZE state does not initialize all variables. Non-initialized
variables
include:

eapKeyData = NONE
eapKeyAvailable = FALSE
eapSuccess = FALSE
eapFail = FALSE
methodState = NONE
selectedMethod = NONE
decision = FAIL

The initialization values seem important since transitions can be based on
them before they are initialized. Re-initializing variables in the
INITIALIZE  state is a bit different from giving the variables initial
values before they are ever used.

Not sure what "decision = FAIL | COND_SUCC" means in the INITIALIZE state.
I assume this means that this variable can be assigned one of two values,
at the  implementation's descretion. I think we want this variable
initialized to FAIL.

There is a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS and FAILURE
states. This occurs without appearing to require receipt of a packet. I
think that this can't  be the case;  something has to be received at some
point for the peer to leave idleWhile  OR it is a situation where the peer
is testing whether the authenticator is  EAP-capable (e.g.
a wired LAN application).

The transition to FAILURE state occurs when an alternative indication of
Rejection occurs (e.g. Disassociate); when the idleWhile timer runs out
and the decision is not an unconditional success; when an alternative
indication of success is available but the decision is FAIL.

There is also a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS state.
This can occur when the idleWhile timer runs out and the decision is
an unconditional success; or when an alternative indication of success
is available and the decision is not FAILURE.

It seems that the INITIALIZE state will need to have the correct default
values or these transitions may not occur correctly.
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Subject: [eap] Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator SM review
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Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator SM review
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
Reference:
Document: SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 5, 5.1
Rationale/Explanation of issue:
pp. 17, page 52

m.getTimeout prototype should be after the paragraph
explaining what m.buildReq does, not before.

pp. 15, Figure 4

Shouldn't there be a function in SEND_REQUEST state
to actually hand the packet over to the lower layer?

The Type code for NAK and EXPANDED_NAK
are the same, so that the definition of
respMethod should probably be modified.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov 10 08:48:02 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
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Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 193: Peer SM review
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 2, 4
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> 
> pp. 5, first paragraph
> 
> "pass EAP messages to a Backend Server where the real Authentication
> Method resides"
> 
> As is made clear later, the pass-through authenticator does *not* forward
> all EAP messages to the backend authentication server, only EAP-Responses.
> Rephrase to:
> 
> "pass EAP-Response messages to a Backend Server where the Authentication
> Method resides"
> 
> Third paragraph:
> 
> The implication is the EAP method demultiplexing depends on the lower
> layer. This is not the case because all EAP implementations on all media
> must support  demultiplexing (whether they support an authenticator or
> peer listener is another issue).
> 
> Suggest replacing the paragraph with:
> 
> "As noted in RFC 2284bis, Section 2.3, the EAP layer demultiplexes
> incoming EAP packets. Packets with Code=2 (Response) are delivered to the
> Authenticator state  machine, while packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
> (Success) or 4 (Failure) are  delivered to the Peer state machine."
> 
> Page 9, Figure 3.
> 
> The notation used later (Figure 6) is more clear than the use of the "|"
> operator as in Figure 3. I'd recommend adopting the Figure 6 notation
> everywhere.

I'm fine with either format.

> It would appear to me that methodState is a variable that needs to be
> exported from the peer to the lower layer. This is so that lower layer
> state  machines such as 802.1X can know whether their own state machines
> should be  affected or not.
> 
> The INITIALIZE state does not initialize all variables. Non-initialized
> variables
> include:
> 
> eapKeyData = NONE
> eapKeyAvailable = FALSE
> eapSuccess = FALSE
> eapFail = FALSE
> methodState = NONE
> selectedMethod = NONE
> decision = FAIL
> 
> The initialization values seem important since transitions can be based on
> them before they are initialized. Re-initializing variables in the
> INITIALIZE  state is a bit different from giving the variables initial
> values before they are ever used.

Ok.

> Not sure what "decision = FAIL | COND_SUCC" means in the INITIALIZE state.
> I assume this means that this variable can be assigned one of two values,
> at the  implementation's descretion. I think we want this variable

Section 3.1 gives the notation.

> initialized to FAIL.

Is this about potentially allowing success even without a single
method run? I agree that FAIL seems appropriate.

> There is a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS and FAILURE
> states. This occurs without appearing to require receipt of a packet. I
> think that this can't  be the case;  something has to be received at some
> point for the peer to leave idleWhile  OR it is a situation where the peer

I think the transition is essentially a timer running to zero, i.e.
idleWhile == 0. That would be appropriate transition imho.

> is testing whether the authenticator is  EAP-capable (e.g.
> a wired LAN application).
> 
> The transition to FAILURE state occurs when an alternative indication of
> Rejection occurs (e.g. Disassociate); when the idleWhile timer runs out
> and the decision is not an unconditional success; when an alternative
> indication of success is available but the decision is FAIL.

Yes.

> There is also a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS state.
> This can occur when the idleWhile timer runs out and the decision is
> an unconditional success; or when an alternative indication of success
> is available and the decision is not FAILURE.

Yes.

> It seems that the INITIALIZE state will need to have the correct default
> values or these transitions may not occur correctly.

I agree.

--Jari



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Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator SM review
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 5, 5.1
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> pp. 17, page 52
> 
> m.getTimeout prototype should be after the paragraph
> explaining what m.buildReq does, not before.

Right. Just split the paragraph into the two sentences and
put the m.getTimeout in between.

> pp. 15, Figure 4
> 
> Shouldn't there be a function in SEND_REQUEST state
> to actually hand the packet over to the lower layer?

I think the style of the specification is that you
just set a variable, and the lower layer magically reads
it.

> The Type code for NAK and EXPANDED_NAK
> are the same, so that the definition of
> respMethod should probably be modified.

Yes.

--Jari

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


I read the EAP state machine draft this morning in the airport.

I had printed it, since reading diagrams on the computer is not very
pleasant. My comments:

1) presentation. 

a) Please make the diagrams use non-zero-width lines in the boxes. Zero-width
   lines do not always render perfectly with all tools/printers. True, it is
   bugs in some tools, and in some printers and some printer drivers.  But
   it is not always fixable.

   Specifically, I experience that some sides of the boxes are not being
   drawn. The PDF is fine, btw. The Postscript is not. I am not certain where
   the problem originates, or where the postscript was generated. 

   (I recall that diagrams that I did with other tools with zero-width
   lines did not import into MS-Office 2000 either)

b) please write the conditionals, with one condition per line.
	  i.e.	A &&
		B &&
		C || 
		D
		
   rather than	A && B &&
		C || D.

   You may even want to use a somewhat unorthodox, but often more clear 
   format of:
	  A
	  && B
	  && C
	  || D

  (FreeS/WAN's pluto uses this style for its C code. It weirded me out at
  first, but I've come to appreciate it a bit)

2) authority

>3.3 Document authority
>
>   Should a  conflict  exist  between  the  interpretation  of  a  state
>   diagram and  either  the  corresponding  global transition  tables
>   or the  textual  description  associated  with  the  state  machine,
>   the state  diagram  takes precedence. When a discrepancy occurs
>   between any part of this document (text or diagram) and any of the
>   related documents ([I-D.ietf-eap-rfc2284bis], [RFC3579], etc.) the
>   latter (the other document) is considered authoritative and takes
>   precedence.

  I am concerned that the diagram, which can't easily be quoted, displayed
or edited is considered authoritative. In addition, while 2223 is slightly
vague about which version is considered authoritative,
draft-rfceditor-editor-rfc2223bis-07 is pretty clear: 
    
      The ASCII plain text version (and its .txt.pdf facsimile) is
      always the official specification, and it must adequately and
      completely define the technical content.  (A very few exceptions
      have been made over the 30 year history of RFCs, allowing a
      definitive PostScript (.ps) version with no .txt version.)  The
      primacy of the ASCII version typically requires that the critical
      diagrams and packet formats be rendered as "ASCII art" in the .txt
      version.

  The above text would seem to contradict this.

  I am also concerned that this document is not authoritative vs the other
documents. 

  I believe that each state in the diagram should have a paragraph explaining
it, its entry conditions and exit conditions.

3) Standalone authenticator State machine - retransmit state

There is no text for me to quote to discuss this, so I can't really 
point at anything, nor can I offer "alternative text" either.

There is a major problem with this state. It can not be implemented in some
transports. The major one is radius. A radius server (which would be the EAP
Requestor) does not initiate new messages on its own. 

It also does not retransmit ever. Rather, it relies on the client to resend
its request, and it will retransmit the reply. EAP does not easily fit into
this, and this state machine shows nothing.

One might say that this is radius' problem. Perhaps. But, it needs to be
documented, and I believe that it has effects on the client (peer) state
machine as well. 

So, I do not agree that this document is ready for last call.

] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [







-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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iKEFTjxfdcwRPyVxzzgGGlcgjM1HzGXy6ddaB1LaChbAvgdNDdWW3Hi/tt9w31oW
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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine
In-reply-to: <1691.1068472096@marajade.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca>
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Hi,

On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:48:16AM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 3) Standalone authenticator State machine - retransmit state
> 
> There is no text for me to quote to discuss this, so I can't really 
> point at anything, nor can I offer "alternative text" either.
> 
> There is a major problem with this state. It can not be implemented in some
> transports. The major one is radius. A radius server (which would be the EAP
> Requestor) does not initiate new messages on its own. 

Standalone authenticator does not use any AAA protocol (RADIUS,
Diameter, etc.), So I don't undersand why RADIUS comes into the
picture here.

Yoshihiro Ohba

> 
> It also does not retransmit ever. Rather, it relies on the client to resend
> its request, and it will retransmit the reply. EAP does not easily fit into
> this, and this state machine shows nothing.
> 
> One might say that this is radius' problem. Perhaps. But, it needs to be
> documented, and I believe that it has effects on the client (peer) state
> machine as well. 
> 
> So, I do not agree that this document is ready for last call.
> 
> ] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
> ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
> ] panic("Just another Debian/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Finger me for keys
> 
> iQCVAwUBP6+W+YqHRg3pndX9AQH8gQP/WP6hDumYvv4RRGTv2sJeisvO6xCcLsI9
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To: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>, eap@frascone.com
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Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>>>>> "Yoshihiro" == Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com> writes:
    Yoshihiro> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:48:16AM -0500, Michael Richardson
    Yoshihiro> wrote:
    >> 3) Standalone authenticator State machine - retransmit state
    >> 
    >> There is no text for me to quote to discuss this, so I can't really
    >> point at anything, nor can I offer "alternative text" either.
    >> 
    >> There is a major problem with this state. It can not be implemented in
    >> some transports. The major one is radius. A radius server (which would
    >> be the EAP Requestor) does not initiate new messages on its own.

    Yoshihiro> Standalone authenticator does not use any AAA protocol
    Yoshihiro> (RADIUS, Diameter, etc.), So I don't undersand why RADIUS
    Yoshihiro> comes into the picture here.

  Uh, what?

  EAP doesn't live on a wire. It lives in other protocols.

  For instance, this is a "standalone" server - it doesn't talk to any
"backend"


         |-------------------------EAP------------------|

      supplicant              AP--------radius--------server 
	 +-------- 802x ------+ 


] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Finger me for keys

iQCVAwUBP6/5lIqHRg3pndX9AQEZowP+Kwg5/LB1qZk30+Zz32kfACMIs2lnsYux
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Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 02:48:21PM -0600, Michael Richardson wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> >>>>> "Yoshihiro" == Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com> writes:
>     Yoshihiro> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:48:16AM -0500, Michael Richardson
>     Yoshihiro> wrote:
>     >> 3) Standalone authenticator State machine - retransmit state
>     >> 
>     >> There is no text for me to quote to discuss this, so I can't really
>     >> point at anything, nor can I offer "alternative text" either.
>     >> 
>     >> There is a major problem with this state. It can not be implemented in
>     >> some transports. The major one is radius. A radius server (which would
>     >> be the EAP Requestor) does not initiate new messages on its own.
> 
>     Yoshihiro> Standalone authenticator does not use any AAA protocol
>     Yoshihiro> (RADIUS, Diameter, etc.), So I don't undersand why RADIUS
>     Yoshihiro> comes into the picture here.
> 
>   Uh, what?
> 
>   EAP doesn't live on a wire. It lives in other protocols.
> 
>   For instance, this is a "standalone" server - it doesn't talk to any
> "backend"
> 
> 
>          |-------------------------EAP------------------|
> 
>       supplicant              AP--------radius--------server 
> 	 +-------- 802x ------+ 

When we use the word "standalone", it points to EAP authenticator 
that shows a basic, non-passthrough authenticator's behavior, as described 
in section 2 of the state machines draft.  

In the above example, AP acts as a passthrough authenticator, and 
the RADIUS server is a "backend" server to the passthough authenticator, 
not a "standalone" authenticator.  (AP is talking to the backend server).

Yoshihiro Ohba



> 
> 
> ] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
> ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
> ] panic("Just another Debian/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [
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From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca>
Cc: eap@frascone.com, aland@nitros9.org, mah@eunet.at
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine
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Michael Richardson wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> I read the EAP state machine draft this morning in the airport.
> 
> I had printed it, since reading diagrams on the computer is not very
> pleasant. My comments:
> 
> 1) presentation. 
> 
> a) Please make the diagrams use non-zero-width lines in the boxes.

Agree, but I'm not even sure we need postscript versions.

> b) please write the conditionals, with one condition per line.
> 	  i.e.	A &&
> 		B &&
> 		C || 
> 		D

Agree.
  		
>    rather than	A && B &&
> 		C || D.
>
>    You may even want to use a somewhat unorthodox, but often more clear 
>    format of:
> 	  A
> 	  && B
> 	  && C
> 	  || D

Uh.

>   (FreeS/WAN's pluto uses this style for its C code. It weirded me out at
>   first, but I've come to appreciate it a bit)
> 
> 2) authority
> 
> 
>>3.3 Document authority
>>
>>  Should a  conflict  exist  between  the  interpretation  of  a  state
>>  diagram and  either  the  corresponding  global transition  tables
>>  or the  textual  description  associated  with  the  state  machine,
>>  the state  diagram  takes precedence. When a discrepancy occurs
>>  between any part of this document (text or diagram) and any of the
>>  related documents ([I-D.ietf-eap-rfc2284bis], [RFC3579], etc.) the
>>  latter (the other document) is considered authoritative and takes
>>  precedence.
> 
> 
>   I am concerned that the diagram, which can't easily be quoted, displayed
> or edited is considered authoritative. In addition, while 2223 is slightly
> vague about which version is considered authoritative,
> draft-rfceditor-editor-rfc2223bis-07 is pretty clear: 
>     
>       The ASCII plain text version (and its .txt.pdf facsimile) is
>       always the official specification, and it must adequately and
>       completely define the technical content.  (A very few exceptions
>       have been made over the 30 year history of RFCs, allowing a
>       definitive PostScript (.ps) version with no .txt version.)  The
>       primacy of the ASCII version typically requires that the critical
>       diagrams and packet formats be rendered as "ASCII art" in the .txt
>       version.

We are working with the RFC editor to figure out what to do in our
particular case. Our statemachines aren't easily representable in
ASCII art, so we do have a problem. Or should we publish state
*tables* in ASCII, and an associated PDF version.

But *if* we can figure out a way to do this in ASCII, then I
would agree with you that it should be the authorative one.
Just don't know if its possible in this case.

>   The above text would seem to contradict this.
> 
>   I am also concerned that this document is not authoritative vs the other
> documents. 
> 
>   I believe that each state in the diagram should have a paragraph explaining
> it, its entry conditions and exit conditions.

Hmm... I think most of the explanations of why things are done in a certain
way are in 2284bis. We had some explanations in earlier versions of the state
machine document too, but it was hard to get them synchronized with the diagrams.
Personally, I find it easies to grasp the semantics from the diagram. Additional
text does not help, it hurts.

> 3) Standalone authenticator State machine - retransmit state
> 
> There is no text for me to quote to discuss this, so I can't really 
> point at anything, nor can I offer "alternative text" either.
> 
> There is a major problem with this state. It can not be implemented in some
> transports. The major one is radius. A radius server (which would be the EAP
> Requestor) does not initiate new messages on its own. 
> 
> It also does not retransmit ever. Rather, it relies on the client to resend
> its request, and it will retransmit the reply. EAP does not easily fit into
> this, and this state machine shows nothing.
> 
> One might say that this is radius' problem. Perhaps. But, it needs to be
> documented, and I believe that it has effects on the client (peer) state
> machine as well. 

Well, the functionality split in the passthrough case is non-trivial.
When the authenticator is standalone, all of EAP is terminated in the
same node. However, with a passthrough some parts of the termination
(such as retransmission) are done in the passthrough and the rest
in the backend authenticator.

So I would agree with Yoshi that you shouldn't apply the standalone
authenticator diagram in the case of radius. Then you should apply
the Figure 7 diagram in the passsthrough and the backend auth diagram
in the RADIUS server.

> So, I do not agree that this document is ready for last call.

Hey, we got you reading it, didn't we ;-)

--Jari

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Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>>>>> "Jari" == Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> writes:
    Jari> But *if* we can figure out a way to do this in ASCII, then I
    Jari> would agree with you that it should be the authorative one.
    Jari> Just don't know if its possible in this case.

  My opinion is that each state needs to have text explaining it.
  It should explain how you enter the state, and the conditions to exit it.
Instead, this document seems to spend a lot of space explaining a lot of
variables, but doesn't seem to shed any light on the problem.
  
  Is this document modeled after some IEEE document format?

    >> One might say that this is radius' problem. Perhaps. But, it needs to be
    >> documented, and I believe that it has effects on the client (peer) state
    >> machine as well. 

    Jari> Well, the functionality split in the passthrough case is non-trivial.
    Jari> When the authenticator is standalone, all of EAP is terminated in the
    Jari> same node. However, with a passthrough some parts of the termination
    Jari> (such as retransmission) are done in the passthrough and the rest
    Jari> in the backend authenticator.

  No. You don't understand radius then.
  A radius server, which is where the EAP would be terminated CAN NOT
RETRANSMIT. It can only respond to retransmissions from the client.

    Jari> So I would agree with Yoshi that you shouldn't apply the standalone
    Jari> authenticator diagram in the case of radius. Then you should apply
    Jari> the Figure 7 diagram in the passsthrough and the backend auth diagram
    Jari> in the RADIUS server.

  I don't understand why. The EAP is inside the Radius server.

    Jari> Hey, we got you reading it, didn't we ;-)

  Actually, it got printed before the last call got issued. 
  I have to be at IPSP as well, so I won't be there at some point.
  
] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
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To: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Cc: eap@frascone.com, aland@nitros9.org, mah@eunet.at
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>>>>> "Yoshihiro" == Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com> writes:
    Yoshihiro> When we use the word "standalone", it points to EAP
    Yoshihiro> authenticator that shows a basic, non-passthrough
    Yoshihiro> authenticator's behavior, as described in section 2 of the
    Yoshihiro> state machines draft.   

    Yoshihiro> In the above example, AP acts as a passthrough authenticator,
    Yoshihiro> and the RADIUS server is a "backend" server to the passthough
    Yoshihiro> authenticator, not a "standalone" authenticator.  (AP is
    Yoshihiro> talking to the backend server). 

  okay.   I understand the terminology now. 

  I don't see anything in the backend state machine to accomplish
retransmission. It says that the radius server retransmits... but so what?

  When it retransmits, it will be sending a response to the previous EAP
request, NOT the current one, so the IDs won't match, etc. 

] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
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Subject: [eap] Issue 196: Peer SM Issues
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Issue 196: Peer SM Issues
Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
Date first submitted: Nov 10, 2003
Reference:
Document: SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 4
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

In Figure 3, it is not clear from the diagrams that SUCCESS and FAILURE
are terminal states; perhaps a function call is necessary to cause
the packet to be sent.

EapTunnelled should probably be a function call rather than
a variable, so that there is no confusion that it is set
when the tunnelled method is selected and applies to either
cleartext or tunnelled packets.

The EapTunnelled variable does not describe the behavior
of current tunneled methods such as PEAP. For example
the state IDENTITY is reached from the RECEIVED state
if (selectedMethod == NONE || EapTunnelled). However
inside PEAP, an Identity can't be sent when a method
has been selected and isn't complete.

Similarly, the transition from RECEIVED to GET_METHOD
seems to occur on EapTunnell == TRUE even if a method
has previously been selected and is in progress. This seems wrong.
Suggest adding a getIdentity() call in the IDENTITY state,
which can take into account the information that the peer
has available, in order to determine the appropriate
identity to put into the EAP-Response/Identity. This
could include, for example, "hints" in the EAP-Request/Identity,
default settings in the peer, etc.
The state machine doesn't appear to suppport sequences
of authentication methods within tunnels.

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Subject: [eap] Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
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Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
Reference:
Document: SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: Multiple
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

pp. 21, Section 6

It's draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf, not .ps, no?

pp. 22, Figure 5

respMethod has the same value if it is a NAK or an expanded NAK.

pp. 23

The definition of aaaMethodTimeout should make it clear that this
method-provided hint is not used to control the AAA timeout, only
the value of the Session-Timeout attribute sent by AAA.

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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] EAP state machine
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 05:06:57PM -0600, Michael Richardson wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> >>>>> "Yoshihiro" == Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com> writes:
>     Yoshihiro> When we use the word "standalone", it points to EAP
>     Yoshihiro> authenticator that shows a basic, non-passthrough
>     Yoshihiro> authenticator's behavior, as described in section 2 of the
>     Yoshihiro> state machines draft.   
> 
>     Yoshihiro> In the above example, AP acts as a passthrough authenticator,
>     Yoshihiro> and the RADIUS server is a "backend" server to the passthough
>     Yoshihiro> authenticator, not a "standalone" authenticator.  (AP is
>     Yoshihiro> talking to the backend server). 
> 
>   okay.   I understand the terminology now. 

OK.

> 
>   I don't see anything in the backend state machine to accomplish
> retransmission. It says that the radius server retransmits... but so what?

In Figure 5 (EAP Backend Authenticator State Machine), there is no 
"RETRANSMIT" state unlike standalone authenticator.  So the diagram indicates 
that the backend authenticator does not perform timer-based retransmission.
(i.e., we actually understand the RADIUS behavior.)

Yoshihiro Ohba


> 
>   When it retransmits, it will be sending a response to the previous EAP
> request, NOT the current one, so the IDs won't match, etc. 
> 
> ] Collecting stories about my dad: http://www.sandelman.ca/cjr/ |  firewalls  [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
> ] mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/ |device driver[
> ] panic("Just another Debian/notebook using, kernel hacking, security guy");  [
> 
> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Finger me for keys
> 
> iQCVAwUBP7AaD4qHRg3pndX9AQGkIgP9HZAMG800CjVA9pT7WY/nyiRBIHgCgUdI
> XDiHOJy6xvmR1VVI/auR7L14KydgGhvmhiL0JIlZM2BgZOHdfwLLqs6fgAPSqZ7B
> UWQp0riJem6VIwyqXvhkiVULBifQeexLWJ7dmtGYzmUvixq/AVVDcgLaMpEpFkTT
> Qv31hFJPLMs=
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Subject: [eap] Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
Date first submitted: Nov 11, 2003
Reference:
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001831.html
Document: SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 4
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

The IDENTITY method is independent of the method being negotiated. How do
we deal with the case where different methods require different
identities?

During EAP authentication sequences, the server can ask for different
identities for different eap methods  how does the client know which
identity it is supposed to provide?

clientTimeout  who is responsible for setting this? Is this set per
request, per eap host, or is it based on some other criteria?

eapTunnelled. Who sets this? It is not clear to me.

Does the SM behavior when eapTunnelled is set really correspond to that of
existing tunneled methods? I don't think so.

Is portEnabled condition generic enough? Can it apply to any media, such
as PPP?

Why do we have allowNotification condition? Whats the use case that a
specific eap method turns it on/off? Or is this an EAP setting?

Chapter 4.2, in methodState=Done, it says The method always continues at
this point. I think it should be ends instead.

This document only provides timeout and keys to application. In protocols
such as PEAP, other information is also returned such as EAP TLV.  So
perhaps the text on interfaces between EAP and methods should be clear
that this is extensible.

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Subject: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
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Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
Date first submitted: Nov 11, 2003
Reference:
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001832.html
Document: SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 7
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

Can the EAP server forward to other servers if it cannot negotiate
authentication? The EAP full authenticator seems to allow Pass-through in
this case.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 12 12:16:05 2003
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Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
> Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
> Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 11, 2003
> Reference:
> http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001832.html
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 7
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> 
> Can the EAP server forward to other servers if it cannot negotiate
> authentication? The EAP full authenticator seems to allow Pass-through in
> this case.

Do you mean the case where EAP is forwarded first to a RADIUS server,
and then that forwards it *again* to yet another RADIUS server?

I think this should be allowed.

--Jari

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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
Message-ID: <340B5AC242DEF44AAFCD6DC102B51CD30385AC66@WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
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From: "Ashwin Palekar" <ashwinp@windows.microsoft.com>
To: <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, "Bernard Aboba" <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
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This is the case where EAP is forwarded to first RADIUS server; which
tries to negotiate EAP methods with peer. If the client NAKs all the EAP
methods proposed, the first RADIUS server forwards it to yet another
RADIUS server.

-----Original Message-----
From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf
Of Jari Arkko
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 9:11 AM
To: Bernard Aboba
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue

Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
> Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
> Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 11, 2003
> Reference:
>
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001832.html
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 7
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
>=20
> Can the EAP server forward to other servers if it cannot negotiate
> authentication? The EAP full authenticator seems to allow Pass-through
in
> this case.

Do you mean the case where EAP is forwarded first to a RADIUS server,
and then that forwards it *again* to yet another RADIUS server?

I think this should be allowed.

--Jari

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 12 14:24:01 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
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Ashwin Palekar wrote:
> This is the case where EAP is forwarded to first RADIUS server; which
> tries to negotiate EAP methods with peer. If the client NAKs all the EAP
> methods proposed, the first RADIUS server forwards it to yet another
> RADIUS server.

Yes.

I have looked at the state machine again, and now I believe
it does not support this (and that is OK).

The way that I read the state machines is that the full
machine is for the NAS that either does the authentication
itself or forwards it to a RADIUS server. But the RADIUS
server side should follow only the backend machine. And
the backend machine does not have a transition to send
the authentication somewhere else. Pasi, John, & co --
is this your interpretation too?

--Jari

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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
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In this case, the second RADIUS server will receive a Nak while it is 
in "PICK_UP_METHOD" state.  There are two issues:

- Does RFC3579 allow "pickup" operation when the initial EAP-Response
is a Nak?  I think the document is a bit vague on this (at least it
does not seem to prohibit the case).

- If the above question is yes, how does the backend authenticator
state machine work in this case?  I think there would need a state
transition from "PICK_UP_METHOD" to "NAK" state to explicitly support
the case.

Yoshihiro Ohba


On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 09:22:00AM -0800, Ashwin Palekar wrote:
> This is the case where EAP is forwarded to first RADIUS server; which
> tries to negotiate EAP methods with peer. If the client NAKs all the EAP
> methods proposed, the first RADIUS server forwards it to yet another
> RADIUS server.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf
> Of Jari Arkko
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 9:11 AM
> To: Bernard Aboba
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
> 
> Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
> > Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
> > Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
> > Date first submitted: Nov 11, 2003
> > Reference:
> >
> http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001832.html
> > Document: SM-01
> > Comment type: T
> > Priority: S
> > Section: 7
> > Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> > 
> > Can the EAP server forward to other servers if it cannot negotiate
> > authentication? The EAP full authenticator seems to allow Pass-through
> in
> > this case.
> 
> Do you mean the case where EAP is forwarded first to a RADIUS server,
> and then that forwards it *again* to yet another RADIUS server?
> 
> I think this should be allowed.
> 
> --Jari
> 
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
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_______________________________________________
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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
In-reply-to: <3FB2878C.7030006@piuha.net>
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 09:18:36PM +0200, Jari Arkko wrote:
> Ashwin Palekar wrote:
> >This is the case where EAP is forwarded to first RADIUS server; which
> >tries to negotiate EAP methods with peer. If the client NAKs all the EAP
> >methods proposed, the first RADIUS server forwards it to yet another
> >RADIUS server.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I have looked at the state machine again, and now I believe
> it does not support this (and that is OK).
> 
> The way that I read the state machines is that the full
> machine is for the NAS that either does the authentication
> itself or forwards it to a RADIUS server. But the RADIUS
> server side should follow only the backend machine. And
> the backend machine does not have a transition to send
> the authentication somewhere else. Pasi, John, & co --
> is this your interpretation too?

I think that, if the first RADIUS server uses full authenticator state machine, 
with setting retransmission timer an infinite value (to prohibit timer-based 
retransmission), it is possible to support the scenario on the first RADIUS server.

Yoshihiro Ohba


> 
> --Jari
> 
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:23:31 -0700
From: Jim Burns <jeb@mtghouse.com>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: Paul Congdon <paul_congdon@hp.com>
Subject: 802.1X Rev D7.1 State Machine Comment 30

Hello Bernard,
We have analyzed your comment 30 on 802.1X Rev D7.1 (reappears below)
and would like to discuss our understanding with you.   If you feel it
would be useful to forward this to the EAP state machine folks please
feel free to do so.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary:
The summary of our analysis is that you were either attempting to ensure
that the 802.1X and EAP state machines stayed synchronized or that you
wished to avoid a denial of service attack.
If it was the former, this is already handled by passing through the
RESTART state and the two state machines handshaking on the eapRestart
variable.
If it is the latter, then we agree that you have detected a potential
denial of service attack against EAP running over EAPoL, but that
security is not compromised and the state machines continue to operate.
In addition, the changes required to prevent this denial of service
attack would be extensive and would not prevent other denial of service
attacks so is not worth the effort in the current revision of 802.1X.
Although Link Security will certainly be taking on this and other
issues.  Due to this analysis we have rejected this comment, but we want
to pass along our complete analysis.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Details:
Bernard's original comment 30:
CLAUSE: 8.2.11
PAGE: 65
LINE: 15
COMMENT START:
A transition is made to RESTART state from several states (CONNECTING,
AUTHENTICATED,
HELD) based on receipt of *any* EAP packet (eapolEap). It seems like this
should only occur if an EAP Request is received and EAP indicates that
method-
State==INIT within the EAP state machine.
COMMENT END:
SUGGESTED CHANGES START:
Change the condition for transition to RESTART from "eapolEap" to
"eapolEap &&
methodState==INIT". Include definition of the methodState variable from
the EAP state
machine.
SUGGESTED CHANGES END:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
802.1X Philosophy:
We are a transport for EAP and carry out this transport without
intruding on the EAP header which means that EAP may freely change
without affecting the transport on which it is carried.  It is our
assumption that EAP is prepared to handle the arrival of unexpected EAP
frames and the EAP state machines reflect this and the connection
between the two machines allow EAP to indicate an unexpected frame
without causing a problem in the machines.

Our analysis of what happens today if an unexpected eapolEAP frame arrives:
SUPPLICANT STATE MACHINES (FS=Front End Supplicant, BS=Back End Supplicant)
- Assume we begin in 1X FS CONNECTING
- eapEAPOL frame arrives, assume it is an unexpected EAP for a
supplicant, such as an EAP response , it could just as easily be a bogus
EAP request (either maliciously created or a glitch)
- 1X FS RESTART - set eapRestart
- EAP DISABLED - reset eapRestart
- EAP INITIALIZE
- EAP IDLE
- 1X FS AUTHENTICATING - set suppStart
- 1X BS REQUEST - set eapReq
- EAP RECEIVED - attempts to parse eapReq, fails due to it being a response
- EAP DISCARD - reset eapReq, set eapNoResp
- EAP IDLE - begin idleWhile Timeout set to ClientTimeout
- 1X BS RECEIVE - begin authWhile Timeout set to authPeriod
<<< at this point, either we receive an EAP request, another unexpected
EAP frame, EAP times out or 1X times out >>>
** If we receive an EAP request then, assuming it is a valid first
request then we will authenticate.
** If we receive another unexpected EAP frame then we will repeat
beginning at the EAP RECEIVED state above
** If EAP times out then:
- EAP Failure - set eapFail
- 1X BS FAIL - set suppFail
- 1X BS IDLE - reset suppStart
- 1X FS HELD - after held period
- 1X FS CONNECTING
** If 1X times out then:
- 1X BS TIMEOUT - set suppTimeout
- 1X BS IDLE - reset suppStart
- 1X FS CONNECTING

The are no differences in the above state machine traces for the case
that you start in the HELD or AUTHENTICATED other than the starting
state.  So in all the cases, the DoS attack of sending an unexpected EAP
frame will result in an attempt to do another authentication.  If there
had been a pre-existing authenticated connection (in the case that we
began in the AUTHENTICATED state) this connection will not be broken
during the reauthentication.

Furthermore, if we begin in the AUTHENTICATED state, the DoS attack is
made less likely in .11i  because the EAPOL frame will arrive encrypted
using the current keys and will be more difficult for a malicious
attacker to spoof an EAPOL frame.  So, this attack appears to mostly be
against clients who have not begun authentication (are in the CONNECTING
state) or who have failed an authentication (are in the HELD state).

Sincerely,
Jim Burns

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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0311091902150.5446@internaut.com>
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I have one comment in line.

On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 07:10:34PM -0800, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 193: Peer SM review
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 2, 4
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> 
> pp. 5, first paragraph
> 
> "pass EAP messages to a Backend Server where the real Authentication
> Method resides"
> 
> As is made clear later, the pass-through authenticator does *not* forward
> all EAP messages to the backend authentication server, only EAP-Responses.
> Rephrase to:
> 
> "pass EAP-Response messages to a Backend Server where the Authentication
> Method resides"
> 
> Third paragraph:
> 
> The implication is the EAP method demultiplexing depends on the lower
> layer. This is not the case because all EAP implementations on all media
> must support  demultiplexing (whether they support an authenticator or
> peer listener is another issue).
> 
> Suggest replacing the paragraph with:
> 
> "As noted in RFC 2284bis, Section 2.3, the EAP layer demultiplexes
> incoming EAP packets. Packets with Code=2 (Response) are delivered to the
> Authenticator state  machine, while packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
> (Success) or 4 (Failure) are  delivered to the Peer state machine."
> 
> Page 9, Figure 3.
> 
> The notation used later (Figure 6) is more clear than the use of the "|"
> operator as in Figure 3. I'd recommend adopting the Figure 6 notation
> everywhere.
> 
> It would appear to me that methodState is a variable that needs to be
> exported from the peer to the lower layer. This is so that lower layer
> state  machines such as 802.1X can know whether their own state machines
> should be  affected or not.

I don't think exposing methodState to the lower layer is a good idea.
Since the state machine draft is an informational document, an
implementation can be based on yet another state machine that realizes
the same on-the-wire behavior but uses a different set of states.  If
a lower layer requires such internal state exposition, I believe there
is something wrong with the lower layer design...

Yoshihiro Ohba



> 
> The INITIALIZE state does not initialize all variables. Non-initialized
> variables
> include:
> 
> eapKeyData = NONE
> eapKeyAvailable = FALSE
> eapSuccess = FALSE
> eapFail = FALSE
> methodState = NONE
> selectedMethod = NONE
> decision = FAIL
> 
> The initialization values seem important since transitions can be based on
> them before they are initialized. Re-initializing variables in the
> INITIALIZE  state is a bit different from giving the variables initial
> values before they are ever used.
> 
> Not sure what "decision = FAIL | COND_SUCC" means in the INITIALIZE state.
> I assume this means that this variable can be assigned one of two values,
> at the  implementation's descretion. I think we want this variable
> initialized to FAIL.
> 
> There is a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS and FAILURE
> states. This occurs without appearing to require receipt of a packet. I
> think that this can't  be the case;  something has to be received at some
> point for the peer to leave idleWhile  OR it is a situation where the peer
> is testing whether the authenticator is  EAP-capable (e.g.
> a wired LAN application).
> 
> The transition to FAILURE state occurs when an alternative indication of
> Rejection occurs (e.g. Disassociate); when the idleWhile timer runs out
> and the decision is not an unconditional success; when an alternative
> indication of success is available but the decision is FAIL.
> 
> There is also a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS state.
> This can occur when the idleWhile timer runs out and the decision is
> an unconditional success; or when an alternative indication of success
> is available and the decision is not FAILURE.
> 
> It seems that the INITIALIZE state will need to have the correct default
> values or these transitions may not occur correctly.
> _______________________________________________
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The slides from the EAP WG presentations at IETF 58 are available here:

http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IETF58/EAP.zip
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From aczpress@mail.com  Fri Nov 14 01:15:46 2003
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Reply-To: "ConstruNews" <livrariavirtual2003@yahoo.com.br>
From: "Temas "Patrulhados"" <aczpress@mail.com>
To: eap-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Lindenberg: opiniões "politicamente incorretas" vêm sendo marginalizadas                                  ref.: azb
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<P ALIGN="CENTER">hpq                                          <!-- Please, unsubscribe: 
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--><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:EnEspa&ntilde;ol">EnEspa&ntilde;ol</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> - </FONT><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:InEnglish">InEnglish</A> 
<B><FONT FACE="Garamond"><P>Temas "patrulhados"</P>
</FONT><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=5><P>Opini&otilde;es "politicamente incorretas" v&ecirc;m sendo marginalizadas no debate nacional, diz Lindenberg</P>
</FONT><FONT FACE="Garamond"><P>* Patrulhamento...</P>
</B><P>Em meios empresariais e religiosos continua repercutindo o livro <B>"Os cat&oacute;licos e a economia de mercado"</B>, de autoria de Adolpho Lindenberg. O trabalho denuncia uma pol&iacute;tica com vi&eacute;s esquerdista que visa censurar, marginalizar ou encobrir com um manto de sil&ecirc;ncio, not&iacute;cias, coment&aacute;rios, livros, reportagens e opini&otilde;es "politicamente incorretas", n&atilde;o afinadas com as assim denominadas "causas sociais". Noutras palavras, os meios de comunica&ccedil;&atilde;o, e a pr&oacute;pria sociedade brasileira, est&atilde;o sendo "patrulhados".</P>
<B><P>* Ant&iacute;doto</P>
</B><P>O ant&iacute;doto para esta situa&ccedil;&atilde;o de viol&ecirc;ncia psicol&oacute;gica e espiritual consiste na difus&atilde;o - por meios alternativos, se preciso for - de informa&ccedil;&otilde;es id&ocirc;neas, capazes de esclarecer a opini&atilde;o p&uacute;blica e provocar debates construtivos. Com efeito, uma vez rompidos os anteparos da censura, cada um em seu pr&oacute;prio ambiente poder&aacute;, sem medo, manifestar sua opini&atilde;o sobre os assuntos 'patrulhados'. &Eacute; a proposta inovadora de um programa de liberta&ccedil;&atilde;o ideol&oacute;gica, impulsionado pela coragem, em defesa do esclarecimento popular.</P>
<B><P>* Esclarecimento!</P>
</B><P>Esse programa tem alcance pr&aacute;tico, especialmente para os cat&oacute;licos. O destaque que, h&aacute; muitos anos, a m&iacute;dia vem dando aos pronunciamentos de bispos e sacerdotes (em geral ligados &agrave; CNBB), que favorecem as invas&otilde;es de terras promovidas pelos MST, bem como &agrave;s repetidas cr&iacute;ticas &agrave; &Aacute;rea de Livre Com&eacute;rcio das Am&eacute;ricas (ALCA), &agrave;s privatiza&ccedil;&otilde;es, &agrave; alegada amea&ccedil;a das multinacionais e do capital estrangeiro, e at&eacute; mesmo ao plantio de transg&ecirc;nicos, apresenta dois inconvenientes s&eacute;rios. Em primeiro lugar, tais pronunciamentos podem criar a impress&atilde;o de que a maioria do Episcopado e dos setores mais respons&aacute;veis do Clero brasileiro pensa como esses prelados. Em segundo, de que as teses da Teologia da Liberta&ccedil;&atilde;o t&ecirc;m fundamentos s&oacute;lidos na doutrina cat&oacute;lica. Tudo isso tem muita import&acirc;ncia pr&aacute;tica. Com efeito, na vasta rede de movimentos contestat&aacute;rios, ativa no pa&iacute;s inteiro, a ala progressista religiosa se sobressai hoje como o setor mais ativo e mais radical nas proposi&ccedil;&otilde;es. </P>
<B><P>* Tem&aacute;ticas</P>
</B><P>Diante deste cen&aacute;rio e visando alertar a opini&atilde;o p&uacute;blica cat&oacute;lica, o livro acima citado procura debater as seguintes tem&aacute;ticas:</P>
<B><P>-</B> Capitalismo, globaliza&ccedil;&atilde;o, neoliberalismo e privatiza&ccedil;&otilde;es seriam os grandes respons&aacute;veis pelos bols&otilde;es de mis&eacute;rias, desigualdades sociais e depend&ecirc;ncia externa (isto &eacute;, dos Estados Unidos)?</P>
<B><P>-</B> Os programas sociais estatais seriam a solu&ccedil;&atilde;o para combater a fome, o analfabetismo, o atraso e a indig&ecirc;ncia das classes mais pobres do Brasil?</P>
<B><P>-</B> O materialismo, o anonimato, a exclus&atilde;o social, o relacionamento burocr&aacute;tico entre as pessoas s&atilde;o causados muito especialmente pelo crescimento desordenado das cidades ou sobretudo pela descristianiza&ccedil;&atilde;o de nossos h&aacute;bitos?</P>
<B><P>*</B> <B>Informe-se!</P>
</B><P>Informe-se desses assuntos - e ainda de v&aacute;rios outros - no livro <B>"Os cat&oacute;licos e a economia de mercado"</B>. Voc&ecirc; pode adquiri-lo, clicando nos links abaixo. E complemente seus dados com artigos de Adolpho Lindenberg que lhe ser&atilde;o enviados gratuitamente (clique nos links abaixo). O autor analisa tais assuntos com base na doutrina social cat&oacute;lica, expressa nas enc&iacute;clicas: discorre sobre as rela&ccedil;&otilde;es entre a economia e a moral, liberdade e responsabilidade dos atos econ&ocirc;micos, direito de propriedade, respeito &agrave;s leis naturais no mercado, liceidade do lucro, assist&ecirc;ncia social, rela&ccedil;&otilde;es humanas na empresa e na vida civil.</P>
<B><P>* Destaque</P>
</B><P>E, por fim, um ponto com merecido destaque em <B>"Os cat&oacute;licos e a economia de mercado"</B>: como as reivindica&ccedil;&otilde;es "sociais" t&ecirc;m como fim o socorro aos necessitados e a diminui&ccedil;&atilde;o de desigualdades sociais, &eacute; indispens&aacute;vel ter em vista que esse objetivo s&oacute; poderia ser alcan&ccedil;ado com a eleva&ccedil;&atilde;o significativa do padr&atilde;o de vida do povo (para o autor, por uma dose maior de capitalismo aut&ecirc;ntico) e sobretudo pela recristianiza&ccedil;&atilde;o da sociedade. A assist&ecirc;ncia aos necessitados deve, al&eacute;m do mais, sempre que poss&iacute;vel, ter um tom pessoal, familiar, t&iacute;pico das sociedades org&acirc;nicas harmonicamente diferenciadas, das quais ainda se encontram reflexos vivos em antigas cidades do interior brasileiro. Ali ainda hoje subsistem hospitais, creches, asilos, de iniciativa religiosa e particular, que atendem aos necessitados de modo mais humano e eficaz que a assist&ecirc;ncia estatal prestada nas grandes metr&oacute;poles.</P>
<P>LINKS DE OPINI&Atilde;O:</P>
<P>Entre aqueles que enviarem sua valiosa opini&atilde;o a respeito do texto acima, at&eacute; 30 de novembro, usando qualquer um dos tr&ecirc;s links seguintes, ser&atilde;o sorteados 10 exemplares do livro "Os cat&oacute;licos e a economia de mercado". Os favorecidos ser&atilde;o comunicados por e-mail e dever&atilde;o enviar o endere&ccedil;o postal para receberem os exemplares do livro, por Correio).</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Concordo">Lindenberg:Concordo</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (pode simplesmente enviar seu voto virtual, e acrescentar seu coment&aacute;rio caso desejar)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Discordo">Lindenberg:Discordo</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (idem)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:MinhaOpini&atilde;o">Lindenberg:MinhaOpini&atilde;o</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (para enviar sua valiosa opini&atilde;o, assim como sugerir a Lindenberg temas relacionados com a tem&aacute;tica apresentada, a serem abordados em seus pr&oacute;ximos artigos)</P>
<P>LINKS PARA ADQUIRIR O LIVRO</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirLivroEditora">Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirLivroEditora</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (receber&aacute; por e-mail o link para adquirir o livro impresso, diretamente da Editora, com cart&atilde;o de cr&eacute;dito ou boleto banc&aacute;rio; pre&ccedil;o: R$ 30,00 mais SEDEX)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirE-Book">Lindenberg:DesejoAdquirirE-Book</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (para adquirir o livro, em formato Word, que ser&aacute; enviado por e-mail; receber&aacute; n&uacute;mero de conta banc&aacute;ria para efetuar transfer&ecirc;ncia; pre&ccedil;o promocional do e-book, at&eacute; 30 de novembro: R$ 8,80)</P>
<P>LINKS PARA RECEBER ARTIGOS GRATUITOS:</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:PaginasGratuitas">PaginasGratuitas</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (para receber gratuitamente, por e-mail, &Iacute;ndice e Introdu&ccedil;&atilde;o &agrave; edi&ccedil;&atilde;o brasileira do livro de Lindenberg)</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:GratuitamenteArtigosAnteriores">GratuitamenteArtigosAnteriores</A></P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:GratuitamenteProximosArtigos">GratuitamenteProximosArtigos</A></P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:GratuitamenteTodosOsArtigos">GratuitamenteTodosOsArtigos</A></P>
<FONT FACE="Garamond"><P>Para solicitar alguns t&iacute;tulos espec&iacute;ficos:</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Artigo1">Artigo1</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> "Acabemos com mais uma exclus&atilde;o: o Brasil precisa ouvir a voz do Clero sem-microfone"</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Artigo2">Artigo2</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> "Moral e Economia"</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Artigo3">Artigo3</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> "Assist&ecirc;ncia Social e Capitalismo n&atilde;o precisam estar em guerra: podem dar o abra&ccedil;o da paz"</P>
</FONT><P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:Artigo4">Artigo4</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> "Intervencionismo estatal e fermenta&ccedil;&atilde;o revolucion&aacute;ria versus assist&ecirc;ncia particular e personalizada"</P>
<P>Pr&oacute;ximos temas:</P>
<P>"Capitalismo, globaliza&ccedil;&atilde;o, neoliberalismo, privatiza&ccedil;&otilde;es"</P>
<P>"Economia de Mercado, Neoliberalismo"</P>
<P>"Estatiza&ccedil;&atilde;o da Economia"</P>
</FONT><P>LINK DE REMO&Ccedil;&Atilde;O</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=ConstruNews:Remover eap-archive@ietf.org">ConstruNews:Remover eap-archive@ietf.org</A></P>
<P>LINK PARA TOMAR CONTATO COM LINDENBERG</P>
<P><A HREF="mailto:construnews@yahoo.com.br?subject=Lindenberg:TomarContato">Lindenberg:TomarContato</A><FONT FACE="Garamond"> (tamb&eacute;m pode ligar diretamente, se desejar, ao 11- 92527873, em S&atilde;o Paulo)</P>
</FONT><B><FONT FACE="Garamond" SIZE=2><P ALIGN="CENTER">A difus&atilde;o e o conte&uacute;do desta mensagem s&atilde;o de exclusiva responsabilidade da ConstruNews</P>
</B></FONT><P ALIGN="CENTER">&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY>
</HTML>




From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 14 20:57:33 2003
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Thread-Topic: EAP Codepoints
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From: <Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com>
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Hi All,

Apparently, I said something at the EAP meeting in Minneapolis that
has caused some confusion about the IANA allocation of EAP codepoints.

Just to erase any confusion, I want to make it clear that I support
the current wording in the EAP draft -- that EAP codepoints should be
allocated on the basis of expert review.  This represents an increase
in scrutiny from the current policy (first-come-first-served), which
I think is appropriate.  I do not believe that EAP codepoints should
require an IETF standard, and I do believe that it would be appropriate
to allocate EAP codepoints in some situations (vendor-specific or
environment-specific) where it wouldn't make sense to produce an
IETF standard.=20

I do hope that the WG will consider standardizing secure, general=20
purpose EAP methods in the future, but I do not believe that we
should require a standards-track document in order to obtain a=20
codepoint.

If there are any questions about this, please ask.

Margaret

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sat Nov 15 01:41:01 2003
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From: "CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <paul.congdon@hp.com>
To: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>,
        Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
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I agree completely with Yoshihiro.   The lower layer (e.g. 802.1X) does not
want to know what EAP method is running.  Ideally, the lower layers might
even want to support another authentication protocol other than EAP (though
this is not an explicit design objective of 802.1aa now called 802.1X-D7.1).
Tying the interface between the layers with method specific details is not a
good idea.


Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] 
> On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba
> Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:49 AM
> To: Bernard Aboba
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
> 
> 
> I have one comment in line.
> 
> On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 07:10:34PM -0800, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > Issue 193: Peer SM review
> > Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> > Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> > Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> > Reference:
> > Document: SM-01
> > Comment type: T
> > Priority: S
> > Section: 2, 4
> > Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> > 
> > pp. 5, first paragraph
> > 
> > "pass EAP messages to a Backend Server where the real 
> Authentication 
> > Method resides"
> > 
> > As is made clear later, the pass-through authenticator does *not* 
> > forward all EAP messages to the backend authentication server, only 
> > EAP-Responses. Rephrase to:
> > 
> > "pass EAP-Response messages to a Backend Server where the 
> > Authentication Method resides"
> > 
> > Third paragraph:
> > 
> > The implication is the EAP method demultiplexing depends on 
> the lower 
> > layer. This is not the case because all EAP implementations on all 
> > media must support  demultiplexing (whether they support an 
> > authenticator or peer listener is another issue).
> > 
> > Suggest replacing the paragraph with:
> > 
> > "As noted in RFC 2284bis, Section 2.3, the EAP layer demultiplexes 
> > incoming EAP packets. Packets with Code=2 (Response) are 
> delivered to 
> > the Authenticator state  machine, while packets with Code=1 
> (Request), 
> > 3
> > (Success) or 4 (Failure) are  delivered to the Peer state machine."
> > 
> > Page 9, Figure 3.
> > 
> > The notation used later (Figure 6) is more clear than the 
> use of the 
> > "|" operator as in Figure 3. I'd recommend adopting the Figure 6 
> > notation everywhere.
> > 
> > It would appear to me that methodState is a variable that 
> needs to be 
> > exported from the peer to the lower layer. This is so that 
> lower layer 
> > state  machines such as 802.1X can know whether their own state 
> > machines should be  affected or not.
> 
> I don't think exposing methodState to the lower layer is a 
> good idea. Since the state machine draft is an informational 
> document, an implementation can be based on yet another state 
> machine that realizes the same on-the-wire behavior but uses 
> a different set of states.  If a lower layer requires such 
> internal state exposition, I believe there is something wrong 
> with the lower layer design...
> 
> Yoshihiro Ohba
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > The INITIALIZE state does not initialize all variables. 
> > Non-initialized variables
> > include:
> > 
> > eapKeyData = NONE
> > eapKeyAvailable = FALSE
> > eapSuccess = FALSE
> > eapFail = FALSE
> > methodState = NONE
> > selectedMethod = NONE
> > decision = FAIL
> > 
> > The initialization values seem important since transitions can be 
> > based on them before they are initialized. Re-initializing 
> variables 
> > in the INITIALIZE  state is a bit different from giving the 
> variables 
> > initial values before they are ever used.
> > 
> > Not sure what "decision = FAIL | COND_SUCC" means in the INITIALIZE 
> > state. I assume this means that this variable can be 
> assigned one of 
> > two values, at the  implementation's descretion. I think we 
> want this 
> > variable initialized to FAIL.
> > 
> > There is a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS 
> and FAILURE 
> > states. This occurs without appearing to require receipt of 
> a packet. 
> > I think that this can't  be the case;  something has to be 
> received at 
> > some point for the peer to leave idleWhile  OR it is a 
> situation where 
> > the peer is testing whether the authenticator is  
> EAP-capable (e.g. a 
> > wired LAN application).
> > 
> > The transition to FAILURE state occurs when an alternative 
> indication 
> > of Rejection occurs (e.g. Disassociate); when the idleWhile 
> timer runs 
> > out and the decision is not an unconditional success; when an 
> > alternative indication of success is available but the decision is 
> > FAIL.
> > 
> > There is also a transition from the IDLE state to the 
> SUCCESS state. 
> > This can occur when the idleWhile timer runs out and the 
> decision is 
> > an unconditional success; or when an alternative indication 
> of success 
> > is available and the decision is not FAILURE.
> > 
> > It seems that the INITIALIZE state will need to have the correct 
> > default values or these transitions may not occur correctly. 
> > _______________________________________________
> > eap mailing list
> > eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> 
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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0311120819040.25257@internaut.com>
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On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 08:20:00AM -0800, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
> Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
> Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 11, 2003
> Reference:
> http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001831.html
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 4
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> 
> The IDENTITY method is independent of the method being negotiated. How do
> we deal with the case where different methods require different
> identities?

The case is supposed to be handled by each method with defining
method-specific identity handling.  It might be better to explicitly
mention this in the statemachines draft.

> 
> During EAP authentication sequences, the server can ask for different
> identities for different eap methods  how does the client know which
> identity it is supposed to provide?

The same as above.

> 
> clientTimeout  who is responsible for setting this? Is this set per
> request, per eap host, or is it based on some other criteria?

I think the draft is not clear on this.  The current peer state
machine reads that idleWhile variable is set to clientTimerout value
even when the peer receives an invalid EAP message, which should not
actually change the timer value.

Speaking about my EAP peer implementation, the clientTimeout can be
set either by applications that use the EAP peer state machine or by
EAP methods.  The idleWhile timer is set only when the state enters
"IDLE" state from "INITIALIZE" state.

> 
> eapTunnelled. Who sets this? It is not clear to me.
> 
> Does the SM behavior when eapTunnelled is set really correspond to that of
> existing tunneled methods? I don't think so.

I agree. The variable eapTunnelled is defined without describing how
sequence of methods inside a tunneling method can be supported with
this state machine.  I think we need to do one of the following:

o Remove eapTunneled variable.

o Describe details on how sequence of methods inside a tunneling
method is supported.

If doing the latter is a hard thing, I would suggest just removing the
eapTunneled variable.  But if the latter can be easily done, it might
be helpful to describe more about sequencing.

> 
> Is portEnabled condition generic enough? Can it apply to any media, such
> as PPP?

I don't think portEnabled condition is generic enough.  PANA and
IKEv2 do not have a notion of port.  My implementation uses more
generic "Start()" and "Restart()" functions in the API, which modify
portEnabled and eapRestart conditions (i.e., the variables are used
just to follow the state machine draft, not really necessary IMHO.)

> 
> Why do we have allowNotification condition? Whats the use case that a
> specific eap method turns it on/off? Or is this an EAP setting?


According to the description in section 5.2 of RFC2284bis, this is
basically eap method settings (except that EAP peer state machine just
initializes the condition to TRUE).

> 
> Chapter 4.2, in methodState=Done, it says The method always continues at
> this point. I think it should be ends instead.

I agree.

> 
> This document only provides timeout and keys to application. In protocols
> such as PEAP, other information is also returned such as EAP TLV.  So
> perhaps the text on interfaces between EAP and methods should be clear
> that this is extensible.

Perhaps if we add the following text in section 8 "Implementation
Considerations", that should be sufficient:

"Implementations may define an additional interface to pass
method-specific information between methods and applications.  Such
method-specific interface definition can be left to implementations
and thus is not defined in this document."

Yoshihiro Ohba



> 
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
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Subject: [eap] Issue 200: Endpoint verification
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Issue 200: Endpoint verification
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: Nov 17, 2003
Reference:
Document: RFC2284bis-06
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 4
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

The Security Claims section doesn't include a claim for
a solution to the "Lying NAS" problem, and this attack
is not included in the threat model either.

Add to sections 5.1, 5.2, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 the following
security claim:

Endpoint verification:  No

Add to Section 7.1:

[10] An attacker acting as an authenticator may provide
inconsistent information to the EAP peer
and server.  This includes impersonating another
authenticator,  or communicating incorrect information
via out-of-band mechanisms such as via
a AAA or lower layer protocol.

Add the following definition to section 7.2.1:

Endpoint verification
The verification within an EAP method of endpoint
identifiers communicated out of band, such as via
a AAA or lower layer protocol.

Add Section 7.15:

7.15  Endpoint Verification

It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP
authenticator to communicate inconsistent information to
the EAP peer and server.   This may enable an authenticator
to impersonate another authenticator or communicate
incorrect information via out-of-band mechanisms such as via a
AAA or lower layer protocol.

Where EAP is used in passthrough mode, the EAP peer typically
does not verify the identity of the authenticator, it
only verifies that the authenticator is trusted by the EAP
server.  This lack of endpoint verification creates a potential
security vulnerability.

While [RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP authenticator
providing incorrect information to a AAA server
(such as a forged NAS-Identifier, NAS-IP-Address or NAS-IPv6-Address
attributes) can be detected, it is possible for the AP to provide the
correct information to the AAA server while communicating
incorrect information to the EAP peer via a lower layer
protocol.

For example, it is possible for an authenticator to utilize another
authenticator's Calling-Station-Id in communicating with
the EAP peer, or for the authenticator to provide incorrect information on
the peer's Calling-Station-Id to the AAA server.

In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may support
a protected  exchange of endpoint identifiers, including
(but not limited to):
Called-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], Calling-Station-Id
[RFC2865][RFC3580],
NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and
NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].

Using such an exchange,  the EAP server could match the
Called-Station-Id and Calling-Station-Id provided by the EAP
peer against that provided by the authenticator via the AAA protocol.
Similarly, if the peer is provided with the authenticator's
NAS-Identifier, NAS-IP-Address or NAS-IPv6-Address via the lower layer
protocol, it could provide this information to the EAP server via the
EAP method, allowing the EAP server to match it against the equivalent
information provided by the authenticator via the AAA protocol.  Where
discrepancies exist, these SHOULD be logged.

Add to non-normative references:

[RFC2865]      Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson,
"Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)",
RFC 2865, June 2000.

[RFC3162]      Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and IP6",
RFC 3162, August 2001.

[RFC3580]      Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J.
Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User
Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580,
September 2003.
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
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Subject: [eap] Propsoed resolution to Issue 201: Some NITs
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The text of Issue 201 is enclosed below.  The proposed resolution is as
follows:

Replace "acknowledged result indications" with "protected result
indications" throughout the document.

In Section 7.4, change:

Where EAP is tunneled within another protocol that omits peer
authentication, there exists a potential vulnerability to
man-in-the-middle attack.

To:

Where EAP is tunneled within another protocol that omits peer
authentication, there exists a potential vulnerability to
man-in-the-middle attack.   For details, see [BINDING] and [MiTM].

Change:

[b] Requiring cryptographic binding between the EAP tunneling protocol and
the tunneled EAP methods. Where cryptographic binding is supported, a
mechanism is also needed to protect against downgrade attacks that would
bypass it.

To:

[b] Requiring cryptographic binding between the EAP tunneling protocol and
the tunneled EAP methods. Where cryptographic binding is supported, a
mechanism is also needed to protect against downgrade attacks that would
bypass it.   For further details on cryptographic binding, see [BINDING].

Add the following informative references:

[BINDING] Puthenkulam, J., et al., "The Compound Authentication Binding
Problem", draft-puthenkulam-eap-binding-04.txt,
Internet draft (work in progress), October 2003.

[MITM]  N. Asokan, Valtteri Niemi and Kaisa Nyberg, Man-in-the-middle in
tunneled authentication protocols,
Technical Report 2002/163, IACR ePrint archive, October 2002. Available
from http://eprint.iacr.org/2002/163

------------------------------------------------
Issue 201: Some NITs
Submitter name: Jose Puthenkulam
Submitter email address: jose.p.puthenkulam@intel.com
Date first submitted: Nov 17, 2003
Reference:
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001814.html
Document: RFC2284bis-06
Comment type: E
Priority: 1
Section: 7.2, 7.4
Rationale/Explanation of issue:
In section 7.2 [c]

Replace "acknowledged result indications" with "protected result
indications". It makes more sense to have the EAP method indicate its
result in a protected manner than making sure the result is
acknowledged.

Also for section 7.4 Man-in-the-middle attacks would it not be
appropriate to add an informative reference to the EAP Binding Draft and
the Nokia Mitm paper.

[Jari Arkko]

Ok. The term is defined in 7.2.1, and the text already requires
protection, I agree that the name "protected result indications" would be
appropriate. Need to change the name then in both 7.2 and 7.2.1 as well as
in a few other places in the document...

> Also for section 7.4 Man-in-the-middle attacks would it not be
> appropriate to add an informative reference to the EAP Binding Draft and
> the Nokia Mitm paper.

Yes, this would be appropriate.

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Subject: RE: [eap] Propsoed resolution to Issue 201: Some NITs
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Thread-Index: AcOt5st8dNJpLkDVTjywgw1p1wWAAwAAXpSw
From: "Puthenkulam, Jose P" <jose.p.puthenkulam@intel.com>
To: "Bernard Aboba" <aboba@internaut.com>, <eap@frascone.com>
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The resolution and changes look good.

best regards,
jose

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]=20
> On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:34 AM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] Propsoed resolution to Issue 201: Some NITs
>=20
>=20
> The text of Issue 201 is enclosed below.  The proposed=20
> resolution is as
> follows:
>=20
> Replace "acknowledged result indications" with "protected result
> indications" throughout the document.
>=20
> In Section 7.4, change:
>=20
> Where EAP is tunneled within another protocol that omits peer
> authentication, there exists a potential vulnerability to
> man-in-the-middle attack.
>=20
> To:
>=20
> Where EAP is tunneled within another protocol that omits peer
> authentication, there exists a potential vulnerability to
> man-in-the-middle attack.   For details, see [BINDING] and [MiTM].
>=20
> Change:
>=20
> [b] Requiring cryptographic binding between the EAP tunneling=20
> protocol and
> the tunneled EAP methods. Where cryptographic binding is supported, a
> mechanism is also needed to protect against downgrade attacks=20
> that would
> bypass it.
>=20
> To:
>=20
> [b] Requiring cryptographic binding between the EAP tunneling=20
> protocol and
> the tunneled EAP methods. Where cryptographic binding is supported, a
> mechanism is also needed to protect against downgrade attacks=20
> that would
> bypass it.   For further details on cryptographic binding,=20
> see [BINDING].
>=20
> Add the following informative references:
>=20
> [BINDING] Puthenkulam, J., et al., "The Compound=20
> Authentication Binding
> Problem", draft-puthenkulam-eap-binding-04.txt,
> Internet draft (work in progress), October 2003.
>=20
> [MITM]  N. Asokan, Valtteri Niemi and Kaisa Nyberg,=20
> Man-in-the-middle in
> tunneled authentication protocols,
> Technical Report 2002/163, IACR ePrint archive, October 2002.=20
> Available
> from http://eprint.iacr.org/2002/163
>=20
> ------------------------------------------------
> Issue 201: Some NITs
> Submitter name: Jose Puthenkulam
> Submitter email address: jose.p.puthenkulam@intel.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 17, 2003
> Reference:
> http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/00
1814.html
Document: RFC2284bis-06
Comment type: E
Priority: 1
Section: 7.2, 7.4
Rationale/Explanation of issue:
In section 7.2 [c]

Replace "acknowledged result indications" with "protected result
indications". It makes more sense to have the EAP method indicate its
result in a protected manner than making sure the result is
acknowledged.

Also for section 7.4 Man-in-the-middle attacks would it not be
appropriate to add an informative reference to the EAP Binding Draft and
the Nokia Mitm paper.

[Jari Arkko]

Ok. The term is defined in 7.2.1, and the text already requires
protection, I agree that the name "protected result indications" would
be
appropriate. Need to change the name then in both 7.2 and 7.2.1 as well
as
in a few other places in the document...

> Also for section 7.4 Man-in-the-middle attacks would it not be
> appropriate to add an informative reference to the EAP Binding Draft
and
> the Nokia Mitm paper.

Yes, this would be appropriate.

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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
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Recently when updating the EAP Issues list, I found I had missed a few
issues.  My apologies to the submitters.

In reviewing the web archive for submitted issues, I typically scan for
the string "[Issue]" in the subject line, assuming that other
postings are not document change requests.

The issues I missed did not have [Issue] in the subject line, so I did not
pick them out when glancing through the web archive.

In order to make sure your issue is properly tracked and added to the
Issues list, please add "[Issue]" to the subject line when requesting a
change to a document.

Thanks!

Bernard
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Preliminary Minutes of the Extensible Authentication Protocol (eap) WG at IETF-58

Time: Monday, November 10, 2003 at 1930-2200

Chairs: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
         Jari Arkko <Jari.Arkko@ericsson.com>

Minutes: Dirk Kroeselberg (Dirk.kroeselberg@web.de)
          Henrik Levkowetz (henrik@levkowetz.com)
          Edited by Jari Arkko (jarkko@piuha.net)

URLs: Issue Status: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html
       Presentations: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IETF58/EAP.zip

Preliminaries
=============

  - Agenda Bashing. No comments on the agenda.

  - Bluesheets going around and note takers assigned.

  - Document Status. Jari summarized the document status:

    o EAP base spec passed WG last call, is in IETF last call.

    o EAP state machine (informational) is in WG last call.

    o EAP keying framework has been adopted as WG document. There is
      still a number of open issues, needs more work than the other docs.

    o EAP over Radius (2289bis) approved, now RFC 3579.

    o Method documents: Approval of methods needs to wait for
      completion of base EAP specifications.  Currently not in EAP WG
      charter to work on methods. Future methods might be specified
      either as individual submissions, Informational documents outside
      the WG or as chartered EAP WG work

WG Work Items -- RFC 2284bis, Henrik Levkowetz
==============================================

  - http://www.levkowetz.com/pub/ietf/drafts/eap/rfc2284bis/draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-07.d.html

  - 3rd last call on the document was held in September. There are two open issues left:

    1) Handling of Identity response
    2) Editorial comments by J. Puthenkulam

    Margaret missed her editorial comments among the open issues, but
    these were already fixed.

    No other questions.

WG Work Items -- EAP State Machine, Pasi Eronen
===============================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf
  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.txt

  - Now in WG last call. Next steps: Handle issues from last call, and
    publish as informational.

  - Draft describes state machine for EAP peer and EAP
    authenticator. No changes on peer side since IETF-57.

  - The approach for the authenticator now is changed, due to comments
    on AAA interaction: three state machines:

    o Standalone (no pass-through or AAA)

    o Backend (Interfaces to AAA module (RFC3579, Diameter), EAP
      methods).

    o Full authenticator (Interfaces to lower layer (matching
      802.1X-REV), EAP methods, AAA module)

  - Discussion:

    o Bernard: What is the difference for handling tunneled methods
      (tunneled variable)?  Pasi Eronen: If you are not inside the
      tunnel, you are not allowed to do multiple authentication
      methods. Complicated, tunneled-variable will be taken out.
      Joe: Makes me somewhat nervous to have that in there.
      Bernard: For now, should be in there to stimulate discussion.

    o I'd also like to say that the quality is very good, and thank the
      authors, and tell people to set aside 4+4 hours and go and read
      it.

WG Work Items -- EAP Key Framework, Bernard Aboba
=================================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-01.txt

  - Normative statements relating to EAP moved to RFC2284bis. As a
    result, EAP methods no longer depend on keying framework.
    Substantial revisions are in progress, currently the draft lacks a
    threat model.

  - Open issues:

    o 15 (key distr. Insecure),
    o 179 (EAP PRF), and
    o 187 (Service SAs).

  - Security issues are:

    o Key scoping: AAA protocols authenticate at NAS granularity Client
      may not be able to recognize NAS scope without assistance from
      the lower layer. Possible solutions:

      . AAA agent checks
      . Logging
      . Key Mixing
      . Method-specific binding

    o Correctness in fast handoff & context transfer

    o Lying NAS Problem

  - There were no questions.


Related Work -- Network Discovery and Selection, Farid Adrangi & Pasi Eronen
============================================================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-and-selection-00.txt

  - Discussion scoping by Jari: there's been previous question marks on
    whether this functionality is needed. Since feedback is required
    from other organizations, and we don't have much time for
    discussion in the meeting, we will assume that network selection is
    needed. Lets use the meeting time to discuss what alternatives we
    have for providing this feature.

  - Problem: Even if you select an AP (based on e.g. SSID) you haven't
    selected a mediating network which will carry your traffic back to
    your home network

  - Farid presented examples of mediating networks, such as iPass,
    3GPP-VPLMN, GRIC.  Home service network is e.g. wireless
    provider. Access networks are public hotspot.  Problem is not AP
    selection in hotspot. EAP-based client needs information on which
    home network /mediating networks are affiliated to the access
    network.  The proposed solution complies with the EAP spec and uses
    EAP-Identity Requests to deliver network information.

  - Proposed solution is to use a "decorated NAI" inside the Identity
    Response, on first or subsequent Identity Request. Identity Request
    may carry information about the network which makes it possible for
    the peer to select an appropriate NAI (if more than one is
    available).

  - There is a 3GPP dependency for this work (3GPP TSG CN).

  - Related presentation by Pasi Eronen: Based on a discussion between
    Jari, Bernard, Pasi.

    o But other solutions are possible, e.g. SSID-based.

    o Suffix routing on a NAI is better than prefix routing.

    o If an eap-layer based solution is used, EAP identity request
      hints are probably OK.

    o The network cannot always ( and maybe should not ) do the
      selection. So information has to be provided to the users.

    o If you try to encode the mediary network information into virtual
      AP's ssid's, the amount of beacons needed might end up consuming
      a significant part of the bandwidth.

    o On the other hand, if you have to associate with each of a large
      number of APs, and start a EAP exchange with each in order to get
      the information about

  - Discussion:

    Margaret Wasserman: Are there lessons to learn from loose source
    routing? Can we become victims of single points of failure?

    Pete: Seems we are limiting us to a solution which doesn't scale
    very well. And I'm not sure we should be doing this at all.

    Bernard: Today we have internet connectivity and DNS-based
    routing. This was not possible with RADIUS.  Why are we doing this?
    It looks like there is no layer-2 alternative that can handle all
    cases.

    Margaret: Assume I can choose based on some string between
    mediating networks. Does not seem to be right as there should be
    some policy. Do we gain something over the existing solutions
    today?

    Farid: These policies can be pushed to the subsciber device
    from the home network

    Farooq: It's the home network which has to settle the roaming
    cost.

    Farid: Some users may care about QoS, some about cost. Policy can
    be pushed by the user's home network.  Margaret: There are other
    WGs that investigated the concept, should be looked at as well.
    Bernard Aboba: Take it to the list.

    Jari: We have a cost factor in selecting the right network. End
    users care about the cost.

  - Strawpoll:

    Should this be solved in the IETF? Consensus that the problem is
    worth solving.

    Should the EAP WG solve the problem? Consensus that it should be
    solved in WG, but less strong than for the first question.

  - Comment by Pasi: There are solutions that do not involve EAP at
    all. But EAP WG could be a good place to explore this.


Related Work -- EAP Key Derivation for Multiple Applications, Joe Salowey
=========================================================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt

  - Changed the draft name to "EMSK usage guidelines"

  - 2284bis defines the EMSK. Several applications have been suggested
    that use the EMSK (eap-keying, aaaarch-handoff, eap-protectedtlv)
    The current proposal should either be incorporated into key
    framework draft, or the keying framework should reference it.

  - Jari: May be a separate specification as well. Joe: Key framework
    itself references EMSK. So either take that out, or reference it.
    Russ: Its just two pages, merge it in. Jari: Ok

Related Work - The Compound Binding Problem, Farid Adrangi (on behalf of Jose Puthenkulam)
==========================================================================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-puthenkulam-eap-binding-04.txt

  - Status update for 04 version of the draft: mostly editorial
    improvements. Three issues (64, 191, 192) are still open.  Some
    crypto experts have reviewed the draft, no issues so far.  Timeline
    is to resolve open issues this year. Revise section 4, synchronize
    with keying framework. Submit for final review in January, close in
    February 04.

  - Issue: The EMSK may not be the best thing to use for the compound
    bindings. We need to look a this

  - Bernard: We started looking at this because many other groups
    needed something like this. Now IKEv2 is doing something similar,
    and .... is doing something similar. Right now it seems like the
    IETF is going violently in different directions and we get
    incompatibilities. An there may be different views of whether there
    is a problem.

  - Russ Housley: True, need solution, proposal to formulate this in a
    few slides for broader presentation in SAAG.  Farid: his has
    already been done in former IETFs. Bernard: We got no input then.


EAP methods - EAP SIM/AKA, Pasi Eronen
======================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-haverinen-pppext-eap-sim-12.txt
  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-pppext-eap-aka-11.txt

  - No open issues with the drafts. It is part of 3GPP Release 6 WLAN
    inter-working. EAP/SIM products are available, deployment is
    beginning.  Plan is to do individual submissions as informational,
    once EAP base docs finalized.  No implications to 2284bis, state
    machine or keying framework.


EAP Methods -- PEAPv2, Jose Salowey
===================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-josefsson-pppext-eap-tls-eap-07.txt

  - Recently submitted draft -07. Features are complete. Added support
    for sequences of EAP methods. Supports inner method binding.  Goal
    is to submit as informational. Currently WG item not requested.

  - Margaret: All drafts are planned to be published as
    informational. I wonder about this. Bernard: It took so long to get
    this WG started that much work was already more or less done, and
    it may be hard for people to give up change control now, and make
    these WG documents. Pasi: Correct with respect to EAP/SIM and
    EAP/AKA

EAP METHODS - EAP-IKEv2, Dirk Kroeselberg
=========================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tschofenig-eap-ikev2-02.txt

  - A number of issues have been improved in the update, e.g. error
    handling, fragmentation.  There are still open issues like
    optimizing the no. of messages, security claims section.  Another
    update planned before next IETF to address these issues.

  - Michael Richardson: Tunneling seems to be complicated, suggestion
    remove support of tunneled methods or to detail use case.  Dirk:
    True, but applies to all tunneled methods. Is only an optional
    feature in IKEv2.

  - Bernard: Is it intended to handle address assignment in EAP-IKEv2,
    do we need that?  Bernard: Are all identity payloads needed? Is
    IKEv2 a limitation in terms of identity payloads? Dirk: Need to
    check this.


EAP Methods - EAP Smartcard, Pascal Urien
=========================================

  - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-urien-eap-smartcard-03.txt

  - Goal of the proposal is to support EAP in smartcards. No
    discussion.


Roadmap discussion (10 minutes), WG Chairs and ADs
==================================================

  - Steven Hayes: (clarifying 3GPP position) 3GPP requires the two
    methods discussed, and network selection. Otherwise there are no
    further requirements on EAP. Request to publish EAP-SIM and EAP-AKA
    as informational.

  - Someone: Are the available methods sufficient to progress the
    documents to Draft Standard?

    Margaret: Good point. Especially for the keying framework, a method
    that uses all the features is required.

    Bernard: There is no standard method required for this, just the
    use of the features with any method.

    Russ: Requirement is two independent interoperable methods.

    Bernard: You can show interoperability without having particular
    methods showing them

    Margaret: Are all the methods done informational forever? So what
    does the EAP WG do - wait till somebody comes along with a method
    to be standardized?

    Bernard: There is one standardized mandatory method

    Russ: But that one doesn't exercise all features.

    Bernard: Somebody has to ask for a standardization effort.

    Margaret: There is no interoperability without using informational RFCs.

    Bernard: The same issue (mandate one method) has been brought to
    the group by 802.11.

    Pasi: Could update EAP-TLS as this is the only key-generating RFC
    method. Current status is experimental, however.

    Jari: Some defined methods should be standardized in their second
    revision, e.g. EAP-TLS.

    Margaret: We don't have the rule that because something has been
    deployed, it can't be a standards track document!

    Donald: It almost seems like everything developed outside never is
    to become IETF standards. We have some examples where v2 of some
    documents have become - after rework - standards track documents.

    Margaret: How will expert review differ from the expert review done
    for standards track documents.

    Bernard: The intention is to basically raise the bar for new
    methods, as many have already been allocated, but about 70 percent
    do not have a useful documentation (expert review is defined in
    2284bis).

    Bernard: If you already have a type code, it's not even sure that
    the need for expert review will get triggered. Even if you have a
    code allocated, that's not a guarantee that the RFC editor would
    publish a document, he could decide this is awful.

      (Editor's note: Margaret later sent this e-mail to the list:
      "Apparently, I said something at the EAP meeting in Minneapolis
       that has caused some confusion about the IANA allocation of EAP
       codepoints.

       Just to erase any confusion, I want to make it clear that I
       support the current wording in the EAP draft -- that EAP
       codepoints should be allocated on the basis of expert review.
       This represents an increase in scrutiny from the current policy
       (first- come- first- served), which I think is appropriate. I
       do not believe that EAP codepoints should require an IETF
       standard, and I do believe that it would be appropriate to
       allocate EAP codepoints in some situations (vendor-specific or
       environment-specific) where it wouldn't make sense to produce an
       IETF standard.

       I do hope that the WG will consider standardizing secure,
       general purpose EAP methods in the future, but I do not believe
       that we should require a standards-track document in order to
       obtain a codepoint.")

    Chris Elliot: I'd really like to se you take on methods work.

Meeting adjourned.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Tue Nov 18 16:48:05 2003
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> Since the EAP peer/auth listener terms are used in the below text
> a number of times, do we need a definition for them?

Perhaps.  The intended meaning is roughly equivalent to the "Suppliant
PAE" and "Authenticator PAE" in 802.1x.

> >    Where the pass-through device implements an EAP peer listener,
> >    it will not forward to the backend authentication server
> >    EAP Request (Code=1), Success (Code=3) or Failure (Code=4)
> >    packets in order to act on them locally.  The use of the
> >    RADIUS protocol for encapsulation of EAP in pass-through
> >    operation is described in [RFC3579].
>
> I had to read the above paragraph a few times to understand
> what you are saying. So this is an EAP peer-side passthrough?
> Or an EAP passthrough authenticator with an EAP peer side to
> the other direction?

A pass-through device can act as an EAP peer as well as an authenticator.
For example, an AP could need to authenticate to a switch in order to be
allowed to connect to the wired network.  In this case, it will act
locally on any EAP-Requests it receives; it will never act as a
pass-through for Code=2 packets, regardless of whether the AAA protocol
supports peer pass-through or not.  This is because an EAP peer or
authenticator can only take one action on an EAP packet: act on it,
forward it, or drop it.  If it chooses to act on the packet, then it
cannot also forward it.

Does this help?

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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
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From: <Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com>
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Yoshihiro Ohba wrote:
>=20
> In this case, the second RADIUS server will receive a Nak while=20
> it is in "PICK_UP_METHOD" state.  There are two issues:
>=20
> - Does RFC3579 allow "pickup" operation when the initial=20
> EAP-Response is a Nak?  I think the document is a bit vague on=20
> this (at least it does not seem to prohibit the case).

I don't think RFC3579 discusses the case where the EAP
conversation is "switched" from one RADIUS server to another
(it doesn't prohibit it either). It does allow the case
where the initial EAP-Response is a Nak:
=20
  "Where the initial EAP-Request sent by the NAS is for an
  authentication Type (4 or greater), the peer MAY respond with
  a Nak indicating that it would prefer another authentication
  method that is not implemented locally.  In this case, the NAS
  SHOULD send Access-Request encapsulating the received
  EAP-Response/Nak."

> - If the above question is yes, how does the backend
> authenticator state machine work in this case?  I think there
> would need a state transition from "PICK_UP_METHOD" to "NAK"
> state to explicitly support the case.

There is already a transition from INITIALIZE to NAK that=20
does this.

There is currently no text explicitly discussing how a backend
might pass EAP messages to another backend.  However, I'm not
sure that this is really needed (at least in the state machine
doc): in this case, the first backend really works as an ordinary=20
RADIUS proxy (and not as EAP passthrough NAS).

So, I propose that we close issue 199 with no changes to the
document.

Best regards,
Pasi
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Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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Subject: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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Proposed resolution to issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues

- Remove all references to EapTunnelled (it does not adequately
  define behavior of existing tunneled methods, and we don't even
  need to describe their behavior in this document).

- Change in Section 4.1.1 (portEnabled) from:

  "Indicates that there is a valid port to use for the
  communication.  If at any point the port is not available,
  portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
  to DISABLED (or BACKEND_DISABLED)."

  to

  "Indicates that the EAP peer state machine should be ready for
  communication. This is set to TRUE when the EAP conversation is
  started by the lower layer. If at any point the communication
  port or session is not available, portEnabled is set to FALSE
  and the state machine transitions to DISABLED."
     =20
- Change in Section 5.1.1 (portEnabled) from

  "Indicates that there is a valid port to use for the
  communication.  If at any point the port is not available,
  portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
  to DISABLED."
=20
  to=20

  "Indicates that the EAP authenticator state machine should be
  ready for communication.  This is set to TRUE when the EAP
  conversation is started by the lower layer. If at any point
  the communication port or session is not available,
  portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
  to DISABLED."

- Change in Section 4.1.3 (ClientTimeout) from:

  "Configurable amount of time to wait for a valid request
  before aborting."
 =20
  to

  "Configurable amount of time to wait for a valid request
  before aborting, initialized by implementation-specific=20
  means (e.g. a configuration setting)."

- Change in Section 4.2 from

  "methodState=3DDONE: The method always continues at this point,
  (or the peer sees no point in continuing it)."

  to

  "methodState=3DDONE: The method never continues at this point
  (or the peer sees no point in continuing it)."

- Add to Section 8 (implementation considerations):

  "Implementations may define an additional interfaces to pass
  method-specific information between methods and lower layers.
  These interfaces are beyond the scope of this document."

Best regards,
Pasi
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Hi Jari,

Thanks for the review, comments below:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] 
> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 3:49 PM
> To: Joe Salowey; Pasi Eronen
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: review of draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt
> 
> 
> 
> Joe, Pasi,
> 
> I took a look at your draft draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt.
> It looks quite reasonable to me -- thanks for working on it! 
> -- though I do have some comments:
> 
> Substantial:
> 
> 1. The goal of the draft. Is there an intent that some of this
>     should be discussed in the eap-keying document? Or would this
>     be a later extension to that? Or just for our information?
> 
[Joe] I'll be submitting issues to incorporate most of the content into
the key framework document.


> 2. If the security ADs wanted us to name current keys generated
>     from EAP, I think its likely that they will require AMSKs
>     be named as well. A discussion of the naming is missing, though
>     the EMSK itself is named in the document.
> 
[Joe] Yes, more of a discussion of naming is needed.  


> 3. I'm not sure I like the idea of EMSK Name being derived from
>     KDF(EMSK), if there are alternatives. Would it be possible to
>     name the EMSK by the EAP SA Name defined in eap-keying (derived
>     from nonces), concanated with, say, "EMSK". Similarly, we could
>     name each AMSK as the name of the EMSK, concatenated with "AMSK"
>     and the key label and application data?

[Joe] I don't like the proposal either.  The problem is that the EAP SA
name is not concretely defined.  I'm not sure you can define this for
all methods in general.  We need to place a requirement on methods that
if they are going to generate additional keys they must also export an
EAP-SA name.

> 
> 4. Section 3.1, what is the unit of "O"? Bytes or bits?
>
[Joe] Should be bytes
 
> 5. Section 3.3 fails to discuss that if EMSK is going to be
>     useful, there's probably going to be some state kept in
>     the AAA server.
> 
[Joe] true

> Editorial:
> 
> 1. Section 1.2, last paragraph. Missing "." at the end.
> 
> 2. Section 2.1, s/MSUT/MUST/
> 
> 

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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: "CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <paul.congdon@hp.com>
Cc: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
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Thanks.  In reviewing the state machines again, I think I agree with you.
They function even if the 802.1X state machine does not differentiate
between an EAP Request and an EAP Response.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, CONGDON,PAUL (HP-Roseville,ex1) wrote:

>
> I agree completely with Yoshihiro.   The lower layer (e.g. 802.1X) does not
> want to know what EAP method is running.  Ideally, the lower layers might
> even want to support another authentication protocol other than EAP (though
> this is not an explicit design objective of 802.1aa now called 802.1X-D7.1).
> Tying the interface between the layers with method specific details is not a
> good idea.
>
>
> Paul
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]
> > On Behalf Of Yoshihiro Ohba
> > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:49 AM
> > To: Bernard Aboba
> > Cc: eap@frascone.com
> > Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
> >
> >
> > I have one comment in line.
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 07:10:34PM -0800, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > > Issue 193: Peer SM review
> > > Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> > > Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> > > Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> > > Reference:
> > > Document: SM-01
> > > Comment type: T
> > > Priority: S
> > > Section: 2, 4
> > > Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> > >
> > > pp. 5, first paragraph
> > >
> > > "pass EAP messages to a Backend Server where the real
> > Authentication
> > > Method resides"
> > >
> > > As is made clear later, the pass-through authenticator does *not*
> > > forward all EAP messages to the backend authentication server, only
> > > EAP-Responses. Rephrase to:
> > >
> > > "pass EAP-Response messages to a Backend Server where the
> > > Authentication Method resides"
> > >
> > > Third paragraph:
> > >
> > > The implication is the EAP method demultiplexing depends on
> > the lower
> > > layer. This is not the case because all EAP implementations on all
> > > media must support  demultiplexing (whether they support an
> > > authenticator or peer listener is another issue).
> > >
> > > Suggest replacing the paragraph with:
> > >
> > > "As noted in RFC 2284bis, Section 2.3, the EAP layer demultiplexes
> > > incoming EAP packets. Packets with Code=2 (Response) are
> > delivered to
> > > the Authenticator state  machine, while packets with Code=1
> > (Request),
> > > 3
> > > (Success) or 4 (Failure) are  delivered to the Peer state machine."
> > >
> > > Page 9, Figure 3.
> > >
> > > The notation used later (Figure 6) is more clear than the
> > use of the
> > > "|" operator as in Figure 3. I'd recommend adopting the Figure 6
> > > notation everywhere.
> > >
> > > It would appear to me that methodState is a variable that
> > needs to be
> > > exported from the peer to the lower layer. This is so that
> > lower layer
> > > state  machines such as 802.1X can know whether their own state
> > > machines should be  affected or not.
> >
> > I don't think exposing methodState to the lower layer is a
> > good idea. Since the state machine draft is an informational
> > document, an implementation can be based on yet another state
> > machine that realizes the same on-the-wire behavior but uses
> > a different set of states.  If a lower layer requires such
> > internal state exposition, I believe there is something wrong
> > with the lower layer design...
> >
> > Yoshihiro Ohba
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The INITIALIZE state does not initialize all variables.
> > > Non-initialized variables
> > > include:
> > >
> > > eapKeyData = NONE
> > > eapKeyAvailable = FALSE
> > > eapSuccess = FALSE
> > > eapFail = FALSE
> > > methodState = NONE
> > > selectedMethod = NONE
> > > decision = FAIL
> > >
> > > The initialization values seem important since transitions can be
> > > based on them before they are initialized. Re-initializing
> > variables
> > > in the INITIALIZE  state is a bit different from giving the
> > variables
> > > initial values before they are ever used.
> > >
> > > Not sure what "decision = FAIL | COND_SUCC" means in the INITIALIZE
> > > state. I assume this means that this variable can be
> > assigned one of
> > > two values, at the  implementation's descretion. I think we
> > want this
> > > variable initialized to FAIL.
> > >
> > > There is a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS
> > and FAILURE
> > > states. This occurs without appearing to require receipt of
> > a packet.
> > > I think that this can't  be the case;  something has to be
> > received at
> > > some point for the peer to leave idleWhile  OR it is a
> > situation where
> > > the peer is testing whether the authenticator is
> > EAP-capable (e.g. a
> > > wired LAN application).
> > >
> > > The transition to FAILURE state occurs when an alternative
> > indication
> > > of Rejection occurs (e.g. Disassociate); when the idleWhile
> > timer runs
> > > out and the decision is not an unconditional success; when an
> > > alternative indication of success is available but the decision is
> > > FAIL.
> > >
> > > There is also a transition from the IDLE state to the
> > SUCCESS state.
> > > This can occur when the idleWhile timer runs out and the
> > decision is
> > > an unconditional success; or when an alternative indication
> > of success
> > > is available and the decision is not FAILURE.
> > >
> > > It seems that the INITIALIZE state will need to have the correct
> > > default values or these transitions may not occur correctly.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > eap mailing list
> > > eap@frascone.com http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> > _______________________________________________
> > eap mailing list
> > eap@frascone.com
> > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> >
>
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 14:05:00 2003
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In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in part
by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP authenticator
state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.

Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 14:24:59 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Question on EAP SM
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I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
machine as I read it.

Is this wrong?

nick

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
> the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in part
> by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
> variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP authenticator
> state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
>
> Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 14:41:11 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: <Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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I agree with the proposed changes.

nick

Nick L. Petroni, Jr.
Graduate Student, Computer Science
Maryland Information Systems Security Lab
University of Maryland
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~npetroni

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:

> Proposed resolution to issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
>
> - Remove all references to EapTunnelled (it does not adequately
>   define behavior of existing tunneled methods, and we don't even
>   need to describe their behavior in this document).
>
> - Change in Section 4.1.1 (portEnabled) from:
>
>   "Indicates that there is a valid port to use for the
>   communication.  If at any point the port is not available,
>   portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
>   to DISABLED (or BACKEND_DISABLED)."
>
>   to
>
>   "Indicates that the EAP peer state machine should be ready for
>   communication. This is set to TRUE when the EAP conversation is
>   started by the lower layer. If at any point the communication
>   port or session is not available, portEnabled is set to FALSE
>   and the state machine transitions to DISABLED."
>
> - Change in Section 5.1.1 (portEnabled) from
>
>   "Indicates that there is a valid port to use for the
>   communication.  If at any point the port is not available,
>   portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
>   to DISABLED."
>
>   to
>
>   "Indicates that the EAP authenticator state machine should be
>   ready for communication.  This is set to TRUE when the EAP
>   conversation is started by the lower layer. If at any point
>   the communication port or session is not available,
>   portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
>   to DISABLED."
>
> - Change in Section 4.1.3 (ClientTimeout) from:
>
>   "Configurable amount of time to wait for a valid request
>   before aborting."
>
>   to
>
>   "Configurable amount of time to wait for a valid request
>   before aborting, initialized by implementation-specific
>   means (e.g. a configuration setting)."
>
> - Change in Section 4.2 from
>
>   "methodState=DONE: The method always continues at this point,
>   (or the peer sees no point in continuing it)."
>
>   to
>
>   "methodState=DONE: The method never continues at this point
>   (or the peer sees no point in continuing it)."
>
> - Add to Section 8 (implementation considerations):
>
>   "Implementations may define an additional interfaces to pass
>   method-specific information between methods and lower layers.
>   These interfaces are beyond the scope of this document."
>
> Best regards,
> Pasi
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>
>

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 14:45:57 2003
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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 199: Full authenticator SM issue
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> So, I propose that we close issue 199 with no changes to the
> document.
agree.

Regards,
nick

>
> Best regards,
> Pasi
> _______________________________________________
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> eap@frascone.com
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>
>

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 15:28:08 2003
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Joseph Salowey wrote:

>>3. I'm not sure I like the idea of EMSK Name being derived from
>>    KDF(EMSK), if there are alternatives. Would it be possible to
>>    name the EMSK by the EAP SA Name defined in eap-keying (derived
>>    from nonces), concanated with, say, "EMSK". Similarly, we could
>>    name each AMSK as the name of the EMSK, concatenated with "AMSK"
>>    and the key label and application data?
> 
> 
> [Joe] I don't like the proposal either.  The problem is that the EAP SA
> name is not concretely defined.  I'm not sure you can define this for
> all methods in general.  We need to place a requirement on methods that
> if they are going to generate additional keys they must also export an
> EAP-SA name.

Yes, that's right. Ok, I'll settle for your current text then on
that.

--Jari




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Yes, they are set in Figure 8-15 in the Backend Authenticator SM.
However, these are set based on the eapFail and eapSuccess variables.

Is that right?  This seems to imply that it is EAP that determines the
success or failure of the Authenticator SM, when in fact is the decision
communicated by the AAA protocol (Accept/Reject).

For example, in the EAP Authenticator SM (Figure 5), the variables
aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess are set.  Shouldn't these variables cause the
transition from RESPONSE state to SUCCESS or FAILURE state in Figure 8-15
in 802.1X, instead of eapFail and eapSuccess?

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Nick Petroni wrote:

> I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
> are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
> eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
> machine as I read it.
>
> Is this wrong?
>
> nick
>
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>
> > In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
> > the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in part
> > by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
> > variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP authenticator
> > state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
> >
> > Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
> > _______________________________________________
> > eap mailing list
> > eap@frascone.com
> > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> >
>
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 16:02:59 2003
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Nick,
   Actually, Bernard's statement has reminded that in fact I should have 
said:
       eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between 1X and *Higher 
Layer* (which according to 2284bis this will be AAA, not EAP).
       authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front 
end and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
   A subtle but very important distinction.
Jim B.

Jim Burns wrote:

> Nick,
>    Correct.
>    eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between the 1X and EAP 
> machine.
>    authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front end 
> and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
> Sincerely,
> Jim B.
>
> Nick Petroni wrote:
>
>> I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
>> are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
>> eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
>> machine as I read it.
>>
>> Is this wrong?
>>
>> nick
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>> In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
>>> the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in 
>>> part
>>> by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
>>> variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP 
>>> authenticator
>>> state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
>>>
>>> Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> eap mailing list
>>> eap@frascone.com
>>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>>>
>>>   
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> eap mailing list
>> eap@frascone.com
>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>>
>>  
>>
>
>


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 16:05:57 2003
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Nick,
    Correct.
    eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between the 1X and EAP machine.
    authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front end 
and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
Sincerely,
Jim B.

Nick Petroni wrote:

>I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
>are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
>eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
>machine as I read it.
>
>Is this wrong?
>
>nick
>
>On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>
>  
>
>>In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
>>the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in part
>>by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
>>variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP authenticator
>>state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
>>
>>Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
>>_______________________________________________
>>eap mailing list
>>eap@frascone.com
>>http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>eap mailing list
>eap@frascone.com
>http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>
>  
>


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 19 16:12:58 2003
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To: Jim Burns <jeb@mtghouse.com>
Cc: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Question on EAP SM
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I'm not sure how this works because eapSuccess and eapFail are not set in
the EAP SM as a result of AAA activity.   So this isn't quite right, I
think.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Jim Burns wrote:

> Nick,
>    Actually, Bernard's statement has reminded that in fact I should have
> said:
>        eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between 1X and *Higher
> Layer* (which according to 2284bis this will be AAA, not EAP).
>        authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front
> end and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
>    A subtle but very important distinction.
> Jim B.
>
> Jim Burns wrote:
>
> > Nick,
> >    Correct.
> >    eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between the 1X and EAP
> > machine.
> >    authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front end
> > and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
> > Sincerely,
> > Jim B.
> >
> > Nick Petroni wrote:
> >
> >> I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
> >> are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
> >> eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
> >> machine as I read it.
> >>
> >> Is this wrong?
> >>
> >> nick
> >>
> >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
> >>> the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in
> >>> part
> >>> by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
> >>> variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP
> >>> authenticator
> >>> state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
> >>>
> >>> Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> eap mailing list
> >>> eap@frascone.com
> >>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> eap mailing list
> >> eap@frascone.com
> >> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Question on EAP SM
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Bernard,
Maybe this is a subtle, but important point but I think you need to
convince me of it. I am not completely understanding the objection. Your
initial comment was that authSuccess and authFail are not set in the EAP
state machine, but now you are asking why the EAP state machine leads
directly to them being set? I think I am misunderstanding.

As for AAA making the decision, eapFail/eapSucess get set based on the
response aaaFail or aaaSuccess in figure 7. Figures 4 and 6 are the case
where AAA is not used.

can you clarify?

thanks,
nick

Nick L. Petroni, Jr.
Graduate Student, Computer Science
Maryland Information Systems Security Lab
University of Maryland
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~npetroni

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> Yes, they are set in Figure 8-15 in the Backend Authenticator SM.
> However, these are set based on the eapFail and eapSuccess variables.
>
> Is that right?  This seems to imply that it is EAP that determines the
> success or failure of the Authenticator SM, when in fact is the decision
> communicated by the AAA protocol (Accept/Reject).
>
> For example, in the EAP Authenticator SM (Figure 5), the variables
> aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess are set.  Shouldn't these variables cause the
> transition from RESPONSE state to SUCCESS or FAILURE state in Figure 8-15
> in 802.1X, instead of eapFail and eapSuccess?
>
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Nick Petroni wrote:
>
> > I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
> > are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
> > eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
> > machine as I read it.
> >
> > Is this wrong?
> >
> > nick
> >
> > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> >
> > > In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
> > > the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in part
> > > by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
> > > variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP authenticator
> > > state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
> > >
> > > Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > eap mailing list
> > > eap@frascone.com
> > > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> > >
> >
>


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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: Jim Burns <jeb@mtghouse.com>, <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Question on EAP SM
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why are they not? the only authenticator code that interracts with AAA is
figure 7 and that clearly shows eapFail/eapSucces being driven from
aaaFail/aaaSuccess, no?

Nick L. Petroni, Jr.
Graduate Student, Computer Science
Maryland Information Systems Security Lab
University of Maryland
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~npetroni

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:

> I'm not sure how this works because eapSuccess and eapFail are not set in
> the EAP SM as a result of AAA activity.   So this isn't quite right, I
> think.
>
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Jim Burns wrote:
>
> > Nick,
> >    Actually, Bernard's statement has reminded that in fact I should have
> > said:
> >        eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between 1X and *Higher
> > Layer* (which according to 2284bis this will be AAA, not EAP).
> >        authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front
> > end and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
> >    A subtle but very important distinction.
> > Jim B.
> >
> > Jim Burns wrote:
> >
> > > Nick,
> > >    Correct.
> > >    eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between the 1X and EAP
> > > machine.
> > >    authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front end
> > > and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Jim B.
> > >
> > > Nick Petroni wrote:
> > >
> > >> I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
> > >> are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
> > >> eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
> > >> machine as I read it.
> > >>
> > >> Is this wrong?
> > >>
> > >> nick
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
> > >>> the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in
> > >>> part
> > >>> by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
> > >>> variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP
> > >>> authenticator
> > >>> state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
> > >>>
> > >>> Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> eap mailing list
> > >>> eap@frascone.com
> > >>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> eap mailing list
> > >> eap@frascone.com
> > >> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>

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To: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
Cc: Jim Burns <jeb@mtghouse.com>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Question on EAP SM
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Yes, I understand figure 7 and this seems to make sense.  But Figure 5 is
for the Backend Authenticator state machine and Section 6 mentions AAA,
yet the eapFail/eapSuccess variables aren't driven in the same way.  I'm
not sure why this is the case.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Nick Petroni wrote:

> why are they not? the only authenticator code that interracts with AAA is
> figure 7 and that clearly shows eapFail/eapSucces being driven from
> aaaFail/aaaSuccess, no?
>
> Nick L. Petroni, Jr.
> Graduate Student, Computer Science
> Maryland Information Systems Security Lab
> University of Maryland
> http://www.cs.umd.edu/~npetroni
>
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure how this works because eapSuccess and eapFail are not set in
> > the EAP SM as a result of AAA activity.   So this isn't quite right, I
> > think.
> >
> > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Jim Burns wrote:
> >
> > > Nick,
> > >    Actually, Bernard's statement has reminded that in fact I should have
> > > said:
> > >        eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between 1X and *Higher
> > > Layer* (which according to 2284bis this will be AAA, not EAP).
> > >        authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front
> > > end and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
> > >    A subtle but very important distinction.
> > > Jim B.
> > >
> > > Jim Burns wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nick,
> > > >    Correct.
> > > >    eapSuccess and eapFail are the variables between the 1X and EAP
> > > > machine.
> > > >    authSuccess and authFail are variables between the 802.1X front end
> > > > and 802.1X back end authenticator state machines.
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Jim B.
> > > >
> > > > Nick Petroni wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I could be wrong, but my understanding is that authSuccess and authFail
> > > >> are set in the Backend authenticator 1x state machine (p. 59) after
> > > >> eapSuccess or eapFail are set. These ARE set in the Authenticator state
> > > >> machine as I read it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Is this wrong?
> > > >>
> > > >> nick
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> In IEEE 802.1XD7.1, page 49 in the Authenticator PAE state machine,
> > > >>> the transition from AUTHENTICATING state appears to be controlled in
> > > >>> part
> > > >>> by the value of the authSuccess and authFail variables.  However, these
> > > >>> variables do not appear to be set in the corresponding EAP
> > > >>> authenticator
> > > >>> state machines, either in Figure 4, 5 or 6.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Note that Figure 5 does set the aaaEapFail and aaaEapSuccess variables.
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> eap mailing list
> > > >>> eap@frascone.com
> > > >>> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> eap mailing list
> > > >> eap@frascone.com
> > > >> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > eap mailing list
> > eap@frascone.com
> > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> >
>
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Subject: [eap] Issue 202: Peer-to-peer cleanup
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Issue 202: Peer-to-peer cleanup
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: Nov 19, 2003
Reference:
Document: RFC2284bis-06
Comment type: E
Priority: 1
Section: 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 7.2.1
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

This is an issue to cleanup wording on peer-to-peer topics.  This responds
to issues raised by Jari Arkko relating to the term "peer listener" and
"authenticator listener".  On rethinking the terminology it appears to me
that the terms "peer layer" and "authenticator layer" serve just as well.

In Section 2.2, change:

"Within EAP, the Code field functions much like a protocol number in IP.
It is assumed that the EAP layer demultiplexes incoming EAP packets
according to the Code field. Received EAP packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
(Success) and 4 (Failure) are delivered by the EAP layer to the EAP peer
listener, if present. EAP packets with Code=2 (Response) are delivered to
the EAP authenticator listener, if present. Within EAP, the Type field
functions much like a port number in UDP or TCP. It is assumed that the
EAP peer and authenticator layers demultiplex incoming EAP packets
according to their Type, and deliver them only to the EAP method
corresponding to that Type. An EAP method implementation on a host may
register to receive packets from the peer or authenticator listener, or
both."

To:

"Within EAP, the Code field functions much like a protocol
number in IP.  It is assumed that the EAP layer demultiplexes incoming EAP
packets according to the Code field. Received EAP packets with Code=1
(Request), 3 (Success) and 4 (Failure) are delivered by the EAP layer to
the EAP peer layer, if implemented. EAP packets with Code=2 (Response) are
delivered to the EAP authenticator layer, if implemented. Within EAP, the
Type field functions much like a port number in UDP or TCP. It is assumed
that the EAP peer and authenticator layers demultiplex incoming EAP
packets according to their Type, and deliver them only to the EAP method
corresponding to that Type. An EAP method implementation on a host may
register to receive packets from the peer or authenticator layer, or both,
depending on which role(s) it supports."

In Section 2.3, change:

"When operating as a "pass-through authenticator", an authenticator
performs checks on the Code, Identifier and Length fields as described in
Section 4.1. It forwards EAP packets received from the peer and destined
to its authenticator listener to the backend authentication server;
packets received from the backend authentication server destined to the
peer are forwarded to it.  The forwarding decision is based on examination
of the
Code, Identifier and Length fields. Since a "pass-through authenticator"
only forwards to the backend authentication server EAP packets received
from the peer and destined for its authenticator listener, pass-through
authenticator implementations MUST be capable of forwarding to the backend
authentication server EAP packet received from the peer with Code=2
(Response). They also MUST be capable of receiving EAP packets from the
backend authentication server and forwarding EAP packets of Code=1
(Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) to the peer.  Since
pass-through authenticators rely on a backend authenticator server to
implement methods, the EAP method layer header fields (Type, Type-Data)
are not examined as part of the forwarding decision, except where the
authenticator implements one or more authentication methods locally. In
this case, the authenticator may examine the Type field to determine
whether to act on the packet itself or forward it. Compliant pass-through
authenticator implementations MUST be default forward EAP packets of any
Type. The forwarding model is illustrated in Figure 2.  Since EAP packets
received with Code=1 (Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) are
demultiplexed by the EAP layer and delivered to the peer listener, unless
a host implements an EAP peer listener, these packets will be silently
discarded. The behavior of a "pass-through peer"  is undefined within this
specification, and is unsupported by AAA protocols such as RADIUS[RFC3579]
and Diameter[DIAM-EAP]. "

To:

"When operating as a "pass-through
authenticator", an authenticator performs checks on the Code, Identifier
and Length fields as described in Section 4.1. It forwards EAP packets
received from the peer and destined to its authenticator layer to the
backend authentication server; packets received from the backend
authentication server destined to the peer are forwarded to it.  A host
receiving an EAP packet may only do one of three things with it:  act on
it, drop it, or forward it.  The forwarding decision is typically based
only on examination of the Code, Identifier and Length fields.  A
pass-through authenticator implementation MUST be capable of forwarding to
the backend authentication server EAP packets received from the peer with
Code=2 (Response). It also MUST be capable of receiving EAP packets from
the backend authentication server and forwarding EAP packets of Code=1
(Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) to the peer.  Unless the
authenticator implements one or more authentication methods locally which
support the authenticator role, the EAP method layer header fields (Type,
Type-Data) are not examined as part of the forwarding decision.  Where the
authenticator supports local authentication methods, it MAY examine the
Type field to determine whether to act on the packet itself or forward it.
Compliant pass-through authenticator implementations MUST by default
forward EAP packets of any Type.  EAP packets received with Code=1
(Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) are demultiplexed by the
EAP layer and delivered to the peer layer.  Therefore unless a host
implements an EAP peer layer, these packets will be silently discarded.
Similarly, EAP packets received with Code=2 (Response) are demultiplexed
by the EAP layer and delivered to the authenticator layer. Therefore
unless a host implements an EAP authenticator layer, these packets will be
silently discarded.  The behavior of a "pass-through peer" is undefined
within this specification, and is unsupported by AAA protocols such as
RADIUS[RFC3579] and Diameter[DIAM-EAP].  The forwarding model is
illustrated in Figure 2."

In Section 2.4, change:

"Since EAP is a
peer-to-peer protocol, an independent and simultaneous authentication may
take place in the reverse direction (depending on the capabilities of the
lower layer). Both peers may act as authenticators and authenticatees at
the same time; in this case it is necessary to both peers to implement
both EAP authenticator and peer listeners. In addition, the EAP method
implementations on both peers must support both authenticator and peer
functionality.  Although EAP supports peer-to-peer operation, some EAP
implementations, methods, AAA protocols and link layers may not support
this. For example, EAP-TLS[RFC2716] is a client-server protocol requiring
a different certificate profile for the client and server. This implies
that a host supporting both the EAP-TLS peer and authenticator roles would
need to implement both peer and authenticator listeners; would need to
support both the peer and authenticator roles in the EAP-TLS
implementation; would need to be provisioned with two distinct
certificates, one appropriate for each role."

To:

"Since EAP is a
peer-to-peer protocol, an independent and simultaneous authentication may
take place in the reverse direction (depending on the capabilities of the
lower layer). Both peers may act as authenticators and authenticatees at
the same time, in which case it is necessary for both peers to implement
EAP authenticator and peer layers. In addition, the EAP method
implementations on both peers must support both authenticator and peer
functionality.  Although EAP supports peer-to-peer operation, some EAP
implementations, methods, AAA protocols and link layers may not support
this. For example, EAP-TLS[RFC2716] is a client-server protocol with a
different certificate profile for the client and server. This implies that
a host supporting peer-to-peer authentication with EAP-TLS would need to
implement both the EAP peer and authenticator layers; support both peer
and authenticator roles in the EAP-TLS implementation;  and provision two
distinct certificates, one appropriate for each role."
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--On Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11:52 AM +0200 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com 
wrote:

> Proposed resolution to issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
>
> - Remove all references to EapTunnelled (it does not adequately
>   define behavior of existing tunneled methods, and we don't even
>   need to describe their behavior in this document).
>
I like all the changes except the removing of EapTunnelled.  It is set if 
EAP is running in tunnelled mode and hence allowed to do method sequencing. 
I think this is a marker that says that sequences are not allowed on 
unprotected connections, but are (or are not forbidden) in protected 
connections.  I see no reason to take this out.  EAP is not constrained to 
run in an unprotected mode, and this indicates that everything should be 
the same in protected mode, except that method sequences are possible.




> - Change in Section 4.1.1 (portEnabled) from:
>
>   "Indicates that there is a valid port to use for the
>   communication.  If at any point the port is not available,
>   portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
>   to DISABLED (or BACKEND_DISABLED)."
>
>   to
>
>   "Indicates that the EAP peer state machine should be ready for
>   communication. This is set to TRUE when the EAP conversation is
>   started by the lower layer. If at any point the communication
>   port or session is not available, portEnabled is set to FALSE
>   and the state machine transitions to DISABLED."
>
> - Change in Section 5.1.1 (portEnabled) from
>
>   "Indicates that there is a valid port to use for the
>   communication.  If at any point the port is not available,
>   portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
>   to DISABLED."
>
>   to
>
>   "Indicates that the EAP authenticator state machine should be
>   ready for communication.  This is set to TRUE when the EAP
>   conversation is started by the lower layer. If at any point
>   the communication port or session is not available,
>   portEnabled is set to FALSE and the state machine transitions
>   to DISABLED."
>
> - Change in Section 4.1.3 (ClientTimeout) from:
>
>   "Configurable amount of time to wait for a valid request
>   before aborting."
>
>   to
>
>   "Configurable amount of time to wait for a valid request
>   before aborting, initialized by implementation-specific
>   means (e.g. a configuration setting)."
>
> - Change in Section 4.2 from
>
>   "methodState=DONE: The method always continues at this point,
>   (or the peer sees no point in continuing it)."
>
>   to
>
>   "methodState=DONE: The method never continues at this point
>   (or the peer sees no point in continuing it)."
>
> - Add to Section 8 (implementation considerations):
>
>   "Implementations may define an additional interfaces to pass
>   method-specific information between methods and lower layers.
>   These interfaces are beyond the scope of this document."
>
> Best regards,
> Pasi
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap


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Subject: [eap] [Issue] Comments on EAP-Peer state machine
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Submitter name: Joe Salowey
Submitter email address: jsalowey@cisco.com
Date first submitted: 11/20/2003
Reference: 
Document:  State Machine
Comment type: 'E'ditorial
Priority: '1' Should fix 
Section: 4.x
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

1. portEnabled

portEnabled seems very .1x/PPP specific.  EAP is being used in cases
such as IKE and PANA where this concept may a bit more abstract.
Perhaps we can change the name of the variable and/or expand its
definition to include other cases.  

Suggestion:
Perhaps "indicates that a lower layer communcation channel has been
established".

2. EAPTunneled

The behavior inside tunnels needs to be defined by the tunnel as there
are severl ways you can handle EAP within a tunnel.  I think we decided
to remove this variable at the meeting, but I want to mae sure we track
it.  In PEAPv2 we started out with a behavior similar to what is
described in the state machine,  but in order to make sure the policy on
the peer and authenticator stayed in sync we introduced itermediate
result indicators which I think change the state machine a little.

Suggestion:
Remove variable.  We could explore this in an apppendix or a separate
document.

3. Interface to method

The interface to the method seems too complicated.  

First I don't think that intCheck should be a different process.
Integrity checking is done as part of the method processing.  Also
methods aren't required to ingore packets, some methods with ignore some
problems and return errors on others.  I think this behavior should be
incorporated into m.process.

On a separate but related note it seems that the method state and
decision is very complex. I don't really see the need for the
independent methodState and decision variables.  M.process() should
return one of serverl possible results: IGNORE, CONTINUE, COND_SUCCESS,
SUCCESS, FAILURE.  MethodState should be able to take on CONTINUE,
COND_SUCCESS, SUCCESS, FAILURE.  I don't think a separate decision
variable is necessary.

Suggestion

In method:

methodResult = m.process(eapRespData)
If (methodResult != IGNORE)
{
   methodState = methodResult
   allowNotifications = TRUE|FALSE
   eapRespData = m.buildResponse(reqID)
   if (methodState == SUCCESS || methodState == COND_SUCCESS)
   {
	eapKeyData = NONE|m.getKey()
   }
}

Transition to discard: (methodResult == IGNORE)
Combine methodState and decision transition conditions

4. Idle timer

It seems that there is a problem with the idle timer.  It would be
possible for the peer to never time out if it keeps on receiving packets
that it discards.  This is not so good.  

Suggestion:

Perhaps the client timeout should be set outside the IDLE state in the
INITIALIZE state and in the METHOD or SEND_RESPONSE state.

5.  rxSuccess and rxFailure

Shouldn't rxSuccess and rxFailure check to see if (reqId == lastReqID)?


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Thanks very much for the good notes.  I have cut and pasted some comments 
below.

--On Tuesday, November 18, 2003 5:34 PM +0200 Jari Arkko 
<jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:

>
> Preliminary Minutes of the Extensible Authentication Protocol (eap) WG at
> IETF-58
>
> Time: Monday, November 10, 2003 at 1930-2200
>
> Chairs: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
>          Jari Arkko <Jari.Arkko@ericsson.com>
>
> Minutes: Dirk Kroeselberg (Dirk.kroeselberg@web.de)
>           Henrik Levkowetz (henrik@levkowetz.com)
>           Edited by Jari Arkko (jarkko@piuha.net)
>
> URLs: Issue Status: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html
>        Presentations: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/IETF58/EAP.zip
>
>
.
.

>     o Method documents: Approval of methods needs to wait for
>       completion of base EAP specifications.  Currently not in EAP WG
>       charter to work on methods. Future methods might be specified
>       either as individual submissions, Informational documents outside
>       the WG or as chartered EAP WG work
>
When will the group decide whether to work on methods?  Seems like this is 
very close.

> WG Work Items -- RFC 2284bis, Henrik Levkowetz
> ==============================================
>
>   -
> http://www.levkowetz.com/pub/ietf/drafts/eap/rfc2284bis/draft-ietf-eap-rf
> c2284bis-07.d.html
>
>   - 3rd last call on the document was held in September. There are two
> open issues left:
>
>     1) Handling of Identity response
>     2) Editorial comments by J. Puthenkulam
.
.
I think the identity response should be worked on by the group for the long 
term, but not as part of 2284bis.

> WG Work Items -- EAP State Machine, Pasi Eronen
> ===============================================
>
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.txt
>
>   - Now in WG last call. Next steps: Handle issues from last call, and
>     publish as informational.
>
>   - Draft describes state machine for EAP peer and EAP
>     authenticator. No changes on peer side since IETF-57.
>
>   - The approach for the authenticator now is changed, due to comments
>     on AAA interaction: three state machines:
>
>     o Standalone (no pass-through or AAA)
>
>     o Backend (Interfaces to AAA module (RFC3579, Diameter), EAP
>       methods).
>
>     o Full authenticator (Interfaces to lower layer (matching
>       802.1X-REV), EAP methods, AAA module)
>
>   - Discussion:
>
>     o Bernard: What is the difference for handling tunneled methods
>       (tunneled variable)?  Pasi Eronen: If you are not inside the
>       tunnel, you are not allowed to do multiple authentication
>       methods. Complicated, tunneled-variable will be taken out.
>       Joe: Makes me somewhat nervous to have that in there.
>       Bernard: For now, should be in there to stimulate discussion.
>
As I noted in response to Pasi, I think this should stay in as well.  I 
think it says that tunnelled and non-tunnelled EAP and EAP methods have the 
same structure, except that tunnelled methods are allowed to do sequences 
of methods.
>     o I'd also like to say that the quality is very good, and thank the
>       authors, and tell people to set aside 4+4 hours and go and read
>       it.
>
> WG Work Items -- EAP Key Framework, Bernard Aboba
> =================================================
>
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eap-keying-01.txt
>
>   - Normative statements relating to EAP moved to RFC2284bis. As a
>     result, EAP methods no longer depend on keying framework.
>     Substantial revisions are in progress, currently the draft lacks a
>     threat model.
>
>   - Open issues:
>
>     o 15 (key distr. Insecure),
>     o 179 (EAP PRF), and
>     o 187 (Service SAs).
>
>   - Security issues are:
>
>     o Key scoping: AAA protocols authenticate at NAS granularity Client
>       may not be able to recognize NAS scope without assistance from
>       the lower layer. Possible solutions:
>
>       . AAA agent checks
>       . Logging
>       . Key Mixing
>       . Method-specific binding
>
>     o Correctness in fast handoff & context transfer
>
>     o Lying NAS Problem
>
>   - There were no questions.
>
I think this is good work, and is making progress.  I am confused about why 
it is not needed for methods, especially methods that generate, and 
possibly keep keys.  I would like to see at least one required to implement 
method that generates and keeps keys for anyone who implements such 
capabilities.  I don't care much which method is required, but I think that 
TLS could be one since it is widely implemented, or I personally think 
requiring an Archie method, or an IKEv2 method would be good.  I think such 
a requirement should go at least with implementing the Key Framework RFC.

I also would suggest that the document might be helped with a framework 
that    shows as outside the EAP/RADIUS framework, but that EAP/RADIUS is 
one place that it can be used.


>
> Related Work -- Network Discovery and Selection, Farid Adrangi & Pasi
> Eronen
> =========================================================================
> ===
>
>   -
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-a
> nd-selection-00.txt
>
>   - Discussion scoping by Jari: there's been previous question marks on
>     whether this functionality is needed. Since feedback is required
>     from other organizations, and we don't have much time for
>     discussion in the meeting, we will assume that network selection is
>     needed. Lets use the meeting time to discuss what alternatives we
>     have for providing this feature.
>
>   - Problem: Even if you select an AP (based on e.g. SSID) you haven't
>     selected a mediating network which will carry your traffic back to
>     your home network
>
>   - Farid presented examples of mediating networks, such as iPass,
>     3GPP-VPLMN, GRIC.  Home service network is e.g. wireless
>     provider. Access networks are public hotspot.  Problem is not AP
>     selection in hotspot. EAP-based client needs information on which
>     home network /mediating networks are affiliated to the access
>     network.  The proposed solution complies with the EAP spec and uses
>     EAP-Identity Requests to deliver network information.
>
>   - Proposed solution is to use a "decorated NAI" inside the Identity
>     Response, on first or subsequent Identity Request. Identity Request
>     may carry information about the network which makes it possible for
>     the peer to select an appropriate NAI (if more than one is
>     available).
>
>   - There is a 3GPP dependency for this work (3GPP TSG CN).
>
>   - Related presentation by Pasi Eronen: Based on a discussion between
>     Jari, Bernard, Pasi.
>
>     o But other solutions are possible, e.g. SSID-based.
>
>     o Suffix routing on a NAI is better than prefix routing.
>
>     o If an eap-layer based solution is used, EAP identity request
>       hints are probably OK.
>
>     o The network cannot always ( and maybe should not ) do the
>       selection. So information has to be provided to the users.
>
>     o If you try to encode the mediary network information into virtual
>       AP's ssid's, the amount of beacons needed might end up consuming
>       a significant part of the bandwidth.
>
>     o On the other hand, if you have to associate with each of a large
>       number of APs, and start a EAP exchange with each in order to get
>       the information about
>
>   - Discussion:
>
>     Margaret Wasserman: Are there lessons to learn from loose source
>     routing? Can we become victims of single points of failure?
>
>     Pete: Seems we are limiting us to a solution which doesn't scale
>     very well. And I'm not sure we should be doing this at all.
>
>     Bernard: Today we have internet connectivity and DNS-based
>     routing. This was not possible with RADIUS.  Why are we doing this?
>     It looks like there is no layer-2 alternative that can handle all
>     cases.
>
>     Margaret: Assume I can choose based on some string between
>     mediating networks. Does not seem to be right as there should be
>     some policy. Do we gain something over the existing solutions
>     today?
>
>     Farid: These policies can be pushed to the subsciber device
>     from the home network
>
>     Farooq: It's the home network which has to settle the roaming
>     cost.
>
>     Farid: Some users may care about QoS, some about cost. Policy can
>     be pushed by the user's home network.  Margaret: There are other
>     WGs that investigated the concept, should be looked at as well.
>     Bernard Aboba: Take it to the list.
>
>     Jari: We have a cost factor in selecting the right network. End
>     users care about the cost.
>
>   - Strawpoll:
>
>     Should this be solved in the IETF? Consensus that the problem is
>     worth solving.
>
>     Should the EAP WG solve the problem? Consensus that it should be
>     solved in WG, but less strong than for the first question.
>
>   - Comment by Pasi: There are solutions that do not involve EAP at
>     all. But EAP WG could be a good place to explore this.
I think a question is who interprets the identity and how is it used.  Do 
we expect the identiy response to be kept whole for the method but brokenup 
by the NAS for routing?  This seems a big question, which I think should 
not be included in 2284bis, but possibly considered by the working group.

>
>
> Related Work -- EAP Key Derivation for Multiple Applications, Joe Salowey
> =========================================================================
>
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt
>
>   - Changed the draft name to "EMSK usage guidelines"
>
>   - 2284bis defines the EMSK. Several applications have been suggested
>     that use the EMSK (eap-keying, aaaarch-handoff, eap-protectedtlv)
>     The current proposal should either be incorporated into key
>     framework draft, or the keying framework should reference it.
>
>   - Jari: May be a separate specification as well. Joe: Key framework
>     itself references EMSK. So either take that out, or reference it.
>     Russ: Its just two pages, merge it in. Jari: Ok
>
> Related Work - The Compound Binding Problem, Farid Adrangi (on behalf of
> Jose Puthenkulam)
> =========================================================================
> =================
>
>   -
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-puthenkulam-eap-binding-04.txt
>
>   - Status update for 04 version of the draft: mostly editorial
>     improvements. Three issues (64, 191, 192) are still open.  Some
>     crypto experts have reviewed the draft, no issues so far.  Timeline
>     is to resolve open issues this year. Revise section 4, synchronize
>     with keying framework. Submit for final review in January, close in
>     February 04.
>
>   - Issue: The EMSK may not be the best thing to use for the compound
>     bindings. We need to look a this
>
>   - Bernard: We started looking at this because many other groups
>     needed something like this. Now IKEv2 is doing something similar,
>     and .... is doing something similar. Right now it seems like the
>     IETF is going violently in different directions and we get
>     incompatibilities. An there may be different views of whether there
>     is a problem.
Can someone describe the different directions?

>
>   - Russ Housley: True, need solution, proposal to formulate this in a
>     few slides for broader presentation in SAAG.  Farid: his has
>     already been done in former IETFs. Bernard: We got no input then.
>
>
> EAP methods - EAP SIM/AKA, Pasi Eronen
> ======================================
>
>   -
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-haverinen-pppext-eap-sim-12.txt
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-pppext-eap-aka-11.txt
>
>   - No open issues with the drafts. It is part of 3GPP Release 6 WLAN
>     inter-working. EAP/SIM products are available, deployment is
>     beginning.  Plan is to do individual submissions as informational,
>     once EAP base docs finalized.  No implications to 2284bis, state
>     machine or keying framework.
>
>
> EAP Methods -- PEAPv2, Jose Salowey
> ===================================
>
>   -
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-josefsson-pppext-eap-tls-eap-07
> .txt
>
>   - Recently submitted draft -07. Features are complete. Added support
>     for sequences of EAP methods. Supports inner method binding.  Goal
>     is to submit as informational. Currently WG item not requested.
>
This draft is very long, and for me sometimes confusing.  I would like to 
see an overview of what the overall flow is, including key generation and 
use, how the innner and outer keys are bound, how methods are sequenced, 
whether remote authorization over the tunnel is permitted (and what the 
reasoning is- perhaps this is here, but I am not finding it).  I also am 
confused about what the crypto binding TLV does and why it is necessary.

I think a diagram in a PDF document would be very helpful in this case, 
along with a text document, like the State Machine doc.

>   - Margaret: All drafts are planned to be published as
>     informational. I wonder about this. Bernard: It took so long to get
>     this WG started that much work was already more or less done, and
>     it may be hard for people to give up change control now, and make
>     these WG documents. Pasi: Correct with respect to EAP/SIM and
>     EAP/AKA
>
> EAP METHODS - EAP-IKEv2, Dirk Kroeselberg
> =========================================
>
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tschofenig-eap-ikev2-02.txt
>
>   - A number of issues have been improved in the update, e.g. error
>     handling, fragmentation.  There are still open issues like
>     optimizing the no. of messages, security claims section.  Another
>     update planned before next IETF to address these issues.
>
>   - Michael Richardson: Tunneling seems to be complicated, suggestion
>     remove support of tunneled methods or to detail use case.  Dirk:
>     True, but applies to all tunneled methods. Is only an optional
>     feature in IKEv2.
>
>   - Bernard: Is it intended to handle address assignment in EAP-IKEv2,
>     do we need that?  Bernard: Are all identity payloads needed? Is
>     IKEv2 a limitation in terms of identity payloads? Dirk: Need to
>     check this.
>
Can just the initial authentication part of IKEv2 be used as a "norm", not 
including other payloads?

Is the "normal" authentication in IKEv2 (not EAP) without Intellectual 
Property hindrances?

>
> EAP Methods - EAP Smartcard, Pascal Urien
> =========================================
>
>   - http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-urien-eap-smartcard-03.txt
>
>   - Goal of the proposal is to support EAP in smartcards. No
>     discussion.
>
>
> Roadmap discussion (10 minutes), WG Chairs and ADs
> ==================================================
>
>   - Steven Hayes: (clarifying 3GPP position) 3GPP requires the two
>     methods discussed, and network selection. Otherwise there are no
>     further requirements on EAP. Request to publish EAP-SIM and EAP-AKA
>     as informational.
>
>   - Someone: Are the available methods sufficient to progress the
>     documents to Draft Standard?
>
>     Margaret: Good point. Especially for the keying framework, a method
>     that uses all the features is required.
>
>     Bernard: There is no standard method required for this, just the
>     use of the features with any method.
>
>     Russ: Requirement is two independent interoperable methods.
>
>     Bernard: You can show interoperability without having particular
>     methods showing them
>
>     Margaret: Are all the methods done informational forever? So what
>     does the EAP WG do - wait till somebody comes along with a method
>     to be standardized?
>
>     Bernard: There is one standardized mandatory method
>
>     Russ: But that one doesn't exercise all features.
>
>     Bernard: Somebody has to ask for a standardization effort.
>
>     Margaret: There is no interoperability without using informational
> RFCs.
>
>     Bernard: The same issue (mandate one method) has been brought to
>     the group by 802.11.
>
>     Pasi: Could update EAP-TLS as this is the only key-generating RFC
>     method. Current status is experimental, however.
>
>     Jari: Some defined methods should be standardized in their second
>     revision, e.g. EAP-TLS.
>
>     Margaret: We don't have the rule that because something has been
>     deployed, it can't be a standards track document!
>
>     Donald: It almost seems like everything developed outside never is
>     to become IETF standards. We have some examples where v2 of some
>     documents have become - after rework - standards track documents.
>
>     Margaret: How will expert review differ from the expert review done
>     for standards track documents.
>
>     Bernard: The intention is to basically raise the bar for new
>     methods, as many have already been allocated, but about 70 percent
>     do not have a useful documentation (expert review is defined in
>     2284bis).
>
>     Bernard: If you already have a type code, it's not even sure that
>     the need for expert review will get triggered. Even if you have a
>     code allocated, that's not a guarantee that the RFC editor would
>     publish a document, he could decide this is awful.
>
>       (Editor's note: Margaret later sent this e-mail to the list:
>       "Apparently, I said something at the EAP meeting in Minneapolis
>        that has caused some confusion about the IANA allocation of EAP
>        codepoints.
>
>        Just to erase any confusion, I want to make it clear that I
>        support the current wording in the EAP draft -- that EAP
>        codepoints should be allocated on the basis of expert review.
>        This represents an increase in scrutiny from the current policy
>        (first- come- first- served), which I think is appropriate. I
>        do not believe that EAP codepoints should require an IETF
>        standard, and I do believe that it would be appropriate to
>        allocate EAP codepoints in some situations (vendor-specific or
>        environment-specific) where it wouldn't make sense to produce an
>        IETF standard.
>
>        I do hope that the WG will consider standardizing secure,
>        general purpose EAP methods in the future, but I do not believe
>        that we should require a standards-track document in order to
>        obtain a codepoint.")
>
>     Chris Elliot: I'd really like to se you take on methods work.
>
> Meeting adjourned.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> eap@frascone.com
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 00:56:04 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
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Subject: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the Identity Response
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The text of Issue 189 is enclosed below.  The proposed fix is as follows:

In Section 5.1, change:
"Since Identity Requests and Responses are not protected, from a privacy
perspective, it may be preferable for protected method-specific Identity
exchanges to be used instead. Where the peer is configured to only accept
authentication methods supporting protected identity exchanges, the peer
MAY provide an abbreviated Identity Response (such as omitting the
peer-name portion of the NAI [RFC2486]). For further discussion of
identity protection, see Section 7.3."

To the following:

"It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
for routing purposes and that EAP Methods SHOULD include an
method-specific mechanism for obtaining the identity, so that
they do not have to rely on the Identity Response. Identity
Requests and Responses are not protected, so from a privacy
perspective it is preferable for an EAP method to include its
own protected identity exchange. The Identity Response may
not be the appropriate identity for the method; it may have
been truncated or obfuscated so as to provide privacy; or it
may have been decorated for routing purposes. Where the peer
is configured to only accept authentication methods
supporting protected identity exchanges, the peer MAY
provide an abbreviated Identity Response (such as omitting
the peer-name portion of the NAI [RFC2486]). For further
discussion of identity protection, see Section 7.3.

--------------------------------------------------------
Issue 189: Handling of the Identity Response
Submitter name: Joe Salowey
Submitter email address: jsalowey@cisco.com
Date first submitted: 10/30/3003
Reference:
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-October/001787.html,
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-October/001788.html
Document: RFC2284bis
Comment type: 'E'ditorial
Priority: '1' Should fix
Section: Section 5.1 and Section 2.2
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

The data in the EAP-Identity Response method is typically provided to a
method for processing.  There are several reasons why a method may not
be able to process this identity.  First the identity may not be the
appropriate identity for the method chosen by the server.  Second the
identity may have been decorated to ensure that it is routed correctly
to the appropriate EAP-Server.

The recommendation is to suggest that the EAP-Identity response be used
primarily for routing and method selection.  EAP-Methods should provided
a separate mechanism for obtaining identity and not rely upon the
identity response.  Many proposed methods already have a way to do this.

Requested change:

Modify the following text in section 2.2:

"Since some EAP authentication methods may wish to access the Identity,
implementations SHOULD make the Identity Request and Response accessible
to authentication methods (Types 4 or greater) in addition to the
Identity method.  However, it is recommended that future EAP Methods not
rely upon the identity received in the Identity Response and have an
alternate way of obtaining identity.  There are several reasons why a
method may not be able to process this identity; the identity may not be
the appropriate identity for the method chosen by the server, the
identity may have been decorated to ensure that it is routed correctly
to the appropriate EAP-Server, or the identity may have been truncated
or obfuscated for privacy reasons.  It is recommended that the identity
be used primarily for routing the request to an appropriate EAP server
and that the identity response be ignored by the EAP Method. The
Identity Type is discussed in Section 5.1."

I 'm not sure we need to add anything to section 5.1 (although I think
the implementation note needs to be fixed).  There may be security
considerations: in order to prevent mechanisms from revealing too much
information about valid users method implementations may always ignore
the identity response and use the mechanism specific identity query.
The reason is that the Data in the Identity Response may not be
the appropriate identity for the method chosen by the server: the identity
may have been decorated to ensure that it is routed correctly by a NAS or
Proxy AAAA Server to the appropriate EAP-Server, or the identity may have
been truncated or obfuscated for privacy reasons. It is recommended that
the Identity Response Data be used primarily for routing the request to an
appropriate EAP server and/or selecting an EAP method, and that the
Identity Response Data be ignored by subsequent the EAP Method. Identity
Type is discussed in Section 5.1.

[John Vollbrecht]

how about:

When an EAP Identity Method is used, Data in the EAP-Identity Response is
typically provided to subsequent EAP Methods.  The subsequent Method MAY
use this in its processing its algorithm.  Note that the information in
the Identity Response is primarily used for routiing following EAP requests
and for selecting a method to process the request.  A method SHOULD NOT use
information in the Identity response as the actual Identity to be
authenticated.

[Joe] I'm not sure about the last sentence. The SHOULD NOT may conflict
with the previous MAY.  How about.
"A method SHOULD provide a method specific means for obtaining identity
so it does not have to rely upon the information in identity response.

[John] I understand your point.  I was trying to say that the algorithm
MAY use the information, otherwise why would we give it to him?  However, it
should not use it as the method's identity.  Note that it may use the
identity or identity as modified by the NAS to select which EAP method to
use.  That is different than using it in the method.

[Joe] Isn't the method section is done before the method gets the
identity?  Some existing methods may require the identity that is why it
should be provided to the method.  I think we want to discourage
reliance on the identity response in methods moving forward.

[John] I think the Identity may be used by some methods (actually I am not
sure this is true) which are capable of doing whatever treating of the
method to get its meaning.  However some methods may also use the identity
from the RADIUS User-ID to get the identity.  These are not the same, as
the NAS may modify the EAP Identity data to support RADIUS proxy routing.

I am thinking the second case [routing] is governed by a set of rules
agreed to by the organization of clients and NASs not covered in this
spec. This is ok.

The first case - where the method uses the Identity Response data from the
previous request as an identity does not seem right.  In thinking about it
I am not sure it actually happens in any implementations [as opposed to
selecting the method instance based on the Response Data].  I think this
is what you are saying should be discouraged, and I am wondering if it is
SHOULD or MUST not.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 02:38:00 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 202: Peer-to-peer cleanup
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Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Issue 202: Peer-to-peer cleanup
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 19, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: RFC2284bis-06
> Comment type: E
> Priority: 1
> Section: 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 7.2.1
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> 
> This is an issue to cleanup wording on peer-to-peer topics.  This responds
> to issues raised by Jari Arkko relating to the term "peer listener" and
> "authenticator listener".  On rethinking the terminology it appears to me
> that the terms "peer layer" and "authenticator layer" serve just as well.

Sounds good.

> In Section 2.2, change:
> 
> "Within EAP, the Code field functions much like a protocol number in IP.
> It is assumed that the EAP layer demultiplexes incoming EAP packets
> according to the Code field. Received EAP packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
> (Success) and 4 (Failure) are delivered by the EAP layer to the EAP peer
> listener, if present. EAP packets with Code=2 (Response) are delivered to
> the EAP authenticator listener, if present. Within EAP, the Type field
> functions much like a port number in UDP or TCP. It is assumed that the
> EAP peer and authenticator layers demultiplex incoming EAP packets
> according to their Type, and deliver them only to the EAP method
> corresponding to that Type. An EAP method implementation on a host may
> register to receive packets from the peer or authenticator listener, or
> both."
> 
> To:
> 
> "Within EAP, the Code field functions much like a protocol
> number in IP.  It is assumed that the EAP layer demultiplexes incoming EAP
> packets according to the Code field. Received EAP packets with Code=1
> (Request), 3 (Success) and 4 (Failure) are delivered by the EAP layer to
> the EAP peer layer, if implemented. EAP packets with Code=2 (Response) are
> delivered to the EAP authenticator layer, if implemented. Within EAP, the
> Type field functions much like a port number in UDP or TCP. It is assumed
> that the EAP peer and authenticator layers demultiplex incoming EAP
> packets according to their Type, and deliver them only to the EAP method
> corresponding to that Type. An EAP method implementation on a host may
> register to receive packets from the peer or authenticator layer, or both,

maybe s/layer/layers/?

> depending on which role(s) it supports."
> 
> In Section 2.3, change:
> 
> "When operating as a "pass-through authenticator", an authenticator
> performs checks on the Code, Identifier and Length fields as described in
> Section 4.1. It forwards EAP packets received from the peer and destined
> to its authenticator listener to the backend authentication server;
> packets received from the backend authentication server destined to the
> peer are forwarded to it.  The forwarding decision is based on examination
> of the
> Code, Identifier and Length fields. Since a "pass-through authenticator"
> only forwards to the backend authentication server EAP packets received
> from the peer and destined for its authenticator listener, pass-through
> authenticator implementations MUST be capable of forwarding to the backend
> authentication server EAP packet received from the peer with Code=2
> (Response). They also MUST be capable of receiving EAP packets from the
> backend authentication server and forwarding EAP packets of Code=1
> (Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) to the peer.  Since
> pass-through authenticators rely on a backend authenticator server to
> implement methods, the EAP method layer header fields (Type, Type-Data)
> are not examined as part of the forwarding decision, except where the
> authenticator implements one or more authentication methods locally. In
> this case, the authenticator may examine the Type field to determine
> whether to act on the packet itself or forward it. Compliant pass-through
> authenticator implementations MUST be default forward EAP packets of any
> Type. The forwarding model is illustrated in Figure 2.  Since EAP packets
> received with Code=1 (Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) are
> demultiplexed by the EAP layer and delivered to the peer listener, unless
> a host implements an EAP peer listener, these packets will be silently
> discarded. The behavior of a "pass-through peer"  is undefined within this
> specification, and is unsupported by AAA protocols such as RADIUS[RFC3579]
> and Diameter[DIAM-EAP]. "
> 
> To:
> 
> "When operating as a "pass-through
> authenticator", an authenticator performs checks on the Code, Identifier
> and Length fields as described in Section 4.1. It forwards EAP packets
> received from the peer and destined to its authenticator layer to the
> backend authentication server; packets received from the backend
> authentication server destined to the peer are forwarded to it.  A host
> receiving an EAP packet may only do one of three things with it:  act on
> it, drop it, or forward it.  The forwarding decision is typically based
> only on examination of the Code, Identifier and Length fields.  A
> pass-through authenticator implementation MUST be capable of forwarding to
> the backend authentication server EAP packets received from the peer with
> Code=2 (Response). It also MUST be capable of receiving EAP packets from
> the backend authentication server and forwarding EAP packets of Code=1
> (Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) to the peer.  Unless the
> authenticator implements one or more authentication methods locally which
> support the authenticator role, the EAP method layer header fields (Type,
> Type-Data) are not examined as part of the forwarding decision.  Where the
> authenticator supports local authentication methods, it MAY examine the
> Type field to determine whether to act on the packet itself or forward it.
> Compliant pass-through authenticator implementations MUST by default
> forward EAP packets of any Type.  EAP packets received with Code=1
> (Request), Code=3 (Success), and Code=4 (Failure) are demultiplexed by the
> EAP layer and delivered to the peer layer.  Therefore unless a host
> implements an EAP peer layer, these packets will be silently discarded.
> Similarly, EAP packets received with Code=2 (Response) are demultiplexed
> by the EAP layer and delivered to the authenticator layer. Therefore
> unless a host implements an EAP authenticator layer, these packets will be
> silently discarded.  The behavior of a "pass-through peer" is undefined
> within this specification, and is unsupported by AAA protocols such as
> RADIUS[RFC3579] and Diameter[DIAM-EAP].  The forwarding model is
> illustrated in Figure 2."

Good.

> In Section 2.4, change:
> 
> "Since EAP is a
> peer-to-peer protocol, an independent and simultaneous authentication may
> take place in the reverse direction (depending on the capabilities of the
> lower layer). Both peers may act as authenticators and authenticatees at
> the same time; in this case it is necessary to both peers to implement
> both EAP authenticator and peer listeners. In addition, the EAP method
> implementations on both peers must support both authenticator and peer
> functionality.  Although EAP supports peer-to-peer operation, some EAP
> implementations, methods, AAA protocols and link layers may not support
> this. For example, EAP-TLS[RFC2716] is a client-server protocol requiring
> a different certificate profile for the client and server. This implies
> that a host supporting both the EAP-TLS peer and authenticator roles would
> need to implement both peer and authenticator listeners; would need to
> support both the peer and authenticator roles in the EAP-TLS
> implementation; would need to be provisioned with two distinct
> certificates, one appropriate for each role."
> 
> To:
> 
> "Since EAP is a
> peer-to-peer protocol, an independent and simultaneous authentication may
> take place in the reverse direction (depending on the capabilities of the
> lower layer). Both peers may act as authenticators and authenticatees at
> the same time, in which case it is necessary for both peers to implement
> EAP authenticator and peer layers. In addition, the EAP method
> implementations on both peers must support both authenticator and peer
> functionality.  Although EAP supports peer-to-peer operation, some EAP
> implementations, methods, AAA protocols and link layers may not support
> this. For example, EAP-TLS[RFC2716] is a client-server protocol with a
> different certificate profile for the client and server. This implies that
> a host supporting peer-to-peer authentication with EAP-TLS would need to
> implement both the EAP peer and authenticator layers; support both peer
> and authenticator roles in the EAP-TLS implementation;  and provision two
> distinct certificates, one appropriate for each role."

Good. (Sent an editorial nit in another e-mail).

--Jari


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 07:33:29 2003
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From: <henry.haverinen@nokia.com>
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Hi everyone,

Here are some questions about draft-urien-eap-smartcard-03.txt.

The subscriber profile is a service that can be used to retrieve the EAP =

types that the smart card implements, right? I suppose the supplicant
software can easily enumerate the all the EAP methods that are available =

beforehand. But I find it confusing that the draft talks about identity =
selection=20
rather than EAP type selection. Shouldn't the supplicant software
select the active EAP method rather than an identity?=20

Maybe the subscriber profile could contain a short description of=20
the EAP method so that could be shown by the supplicant UI.

Have you considered EAP method negotiation in cases when=20
some methods are implemented by the smart card and others by
supplicant software? I think this topic deserves some discussion in this =
draft.

If the supplicant first tries a software EAP method, and later receives=20
an EAP request of some other type, the software could forward the EAP =
request
to the smart card. In this case, does the terminal first need to cycle =
the identities to find
the correct EAP type, or can the EAP packet be directly forwarded to the
card?

If the smart card method is not the first method to try during
EAP method negotiation, then there might not be an EAP identity
round at all, so the smart card authentication should start directly
with an EAP request other than identity. So it should be possible to
by-pass the identity services. Or does the supplicant software need to
fake an EAP identity request and then ignore the response in order=20
to get the smart card's state initialized?

IPR notices: I believe the correct thing to do is to refer to the IETF =
IPR pages
(http://www.ietf.org/ipr.html) for an up-to-date listing of IPR =
statements, and
declare all IPR there. There is already one patent statement pertaining =
to this=20
document:
http://www.ietf.org/ietf/IPR/NOKIA-EAP-SMARTCARD.txt

Regards,
Henry




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Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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From: <Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com>
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John Vollbrecht wrote:
>
> > Proposed resolution to issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
> >
> > - Remove all references to EapTunnelled (it does not adequately
> >   define behavior of existing tunneled methods, and we don't even
> >   need to describe their behavior in this document).
>
> I like all the changes except the removing of EapTunnelled.  It is
> set if EAP is running in tunnelled mode and hence allowed to do
> method sequencing.  I think this is a marker that says that
> sequences are not allowed on unprotected connections, but are (or
> are not forbidden) in protected connections.  I see no reason to
> take this out.  EAP is not constrained to run in an unprotected
> mode, and this indicates that everything should be the same in
> protected mode, except that method sequences are possible.

Ashwin Palekar thought that there actually are other differences,=20
and the current SM (with the EapTunnelled flag) doesn't correctly=20
describe the behavior of existing tunneled methods (and Yoshihiro=20
seemed to agree with him).

I think they're right... there are some tricky issues relating to
e.g. interrupting a method that hasn't yet finished and dealing=20
with methods that have protected result indications.

2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I=20
think the state machine document should not specify them either.

Best regards,
Pasi

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 07:48:05 2003
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Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the Identity Response
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Thread-Topic: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the Identity Response
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From: <Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com>
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Bernard Aboba wrote:
>=20
> The text of Issue 189 is enclosed below.  The proposed fix is=20
> as follows:
>
<snip>
>=20
> To the following:
>=20
> "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
> for routing purposes and that EAP Methods SHOULD include an
> method-specific mechanism for obtaining the identity, so that
> they do not have to rely on the Identity Response. Identity
> Requests and Responses are not protected, so from a privacy
> perspective it is preferable for an EAP method to include its
> own protected identity exchange. The Identity Response may
> not be the appropriate identity for the method; it may have
> been truncated or obfuscated so as to provide privacy; or it
> may have been decorated for routing purposes. Where the peer
> is configured to only accept authentication methods
> supporting protected identity exchanges, the peer MAY
> provide an abbreviated Identity Response (such as omitting
> the peer-name portion of the NAI [RFC2486]). For further
> discussion of identity protection, see Section 7.3.

This omits the point that Identity Response is also used to
select which method to use. I suggest we rephrase the beginning
something like this:

  "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily=20
  for routing purposes and selecting which EAP Method to use. =20
  EAP Methods SHOULD include an method-specific..."

Best regards,
Pasi
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 09:44:00 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:
> John Vollbrecht wrote:
> 
>>>Proposed resolution to issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
>>>
>>>- Remove all references to EapTunnelled (it does not adequately
>>>  define behavior of existing tunneled methods, and we don't even
>>>  need to describe their behavior in this document).
>>
>>I like all the changes except the removing of EapTunnelled.  It is
>>set if EAP is running in tunnelled mode and hence allowed to do
>>method sequencing.  I think this is a marker that says that
>>sequences are not allowed on unprotected connections, but are (or
>>are not forbidden) in protected connections.  I see no reason to
>>take this out.  EAP is not constrained to run in an unprotected
>>mode, and this indicates that everything should be the same in
>>protected mode, except that method sequences are possible.
> 
> 
> Ashwin Palekar thought that there actually are other differences, 
> and the current SM (with the EapTunnelled flag) doesn't correctly 
> describe the behavior of existing tunneled methods (and Yoshihiro 
> seemed to agree with him).
> 
> I think they're right... there are some tricky issues relating to
> e.g. interrupting a method that hasn't yet finished and dealing 
> with methods that have protected result indications.

Not to mention the *very* tricky issues such as the
AND/OR success schemes provided by PEAP. If I understood
it correctly, you get to choose either requiring all
methods in the sequence to be succesful, or just one
one of them.

I'm not quite sure, however, because like John I had
trouble understanding the big picture in the PEAP
document. That document also needs a state machine...
and that state machine can then deal with issues such
as the eapTunneled variable ;-)

> 2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I 
> think the state machine document should not specify them either.

I agree.

--Jari

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> > 2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I
> > think the state machine document should not specify them either.
>
> I agree.
for what it's worth, I think this is the key factor. The other arguments
are convincing as well. I vote keep it out.

Regards,
nick

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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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> Ashwin Palekar thought that there actually are other differences,
> and the current SM (with the EapTunnelled flag) doesn't correctly
> describe the behavior of existing tunneled methods (and Yoshihiro
> seemed to agree with him).
>
> I think they're right... there are some tricky issues relating to
> e.g. interrupting a method that hasn't yet finished and dealing
> with methods that have protected result indications.
>
> 2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I
> think the state machine document should not specify them either.

Yes. I believe that PEAPv2, EAP-TTLS and EAP-IKEv2 behave somewhat
differently in terms of their state machines, so that a single
eapTunnelled flag doesn't adequately describe the behavior of all
tunnelled methods.

I support removing the eapTunnelled variable.
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the Identity
 Response
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> This omits the point that Identity Response is also used to
> select which method to use. I suggest we rephrase the beginning
> something like this:
>
>   "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
>   for routing purposes and selecting which EAP Method to use.
>   EAP Methods SHOULD include an method-specific..."

I've changed the proposed text to reflect this.
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Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the Identity Response
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Thanks Bernard, this looks good.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] 
> On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:27 AM
> To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling 
> of the Identity Response
> 
> 
> > This omits the point that Identity Response is also used to select 
> > which method to use. I suggest we rephrase the beginning something 
> > like this:
> >
> >   "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
> >   for routing purposes and selecting which EAP Method to use.
> >   EAP Methods SHOULD include an method-specific..."
> 
> I've changed the proposed text to reflect this. 
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 11:53:58 2003
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Subject: [eap] Completion of WG last call on the EAP State Machine document
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EAP WG last call has completed on the EAP State Machine document,
draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf.  8 issues were raised: 193, 194, 195,
196, 197, 198, 199, and 203.  For details, see:

http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html

The issues were substantitive enough that once they are resolved and an
-02 document is published, we will go through EAP WG last call again.
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From: Yoshihiro Ohba <yohba@tari.toshiba.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0311210822350.6517@internaut.com>
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On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 08:24:25AM -0800, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > Ashwin Palekar thought that there actually are other differences,
> > and the current SM (with the EapTunnelled flag) doesn't correctly
> > describe the behavior of existing tunneled methods (and Yoshihiro
> > seemed to agree with him).
> >
> > I think they're right... there are some tricky issues relating to
> > e.g. interrupting a method that hasn't yet finished and dealing
> > with methods that have protected result indications.
> >
> > 2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I
> > think the state machine document should not specify them either.
> 
> Yes. I believe that PEAPv2, EAP-TTLS and EAP-IKEv2 behave somewhat
> differently in terms of their state machines, so that a single
> eapTunnelled flag doesn't adequately describe the behavior of all
> tunnelled methods.
> 
> I support removing the eapTunnelled variable.

I agree.

Yoshihiro Ohba
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--On Friday, November 21, 2003 2:34 PM +0200 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:

> John Vollbrecht wrote:
> >
> > > Proposed resolution to issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM issues
> > >
> > > - Remove all references to EapTunnelled (it does not adequately
> > >   define behavior of existing tunneled methods, and we don't even
> > >   need to describe their behavior in this document).
> >
> > I like all the changes except the removing of EapTunnelled.  It is
> > set if EAP is running in tunnelled mode and hence allowed to do
> > method sequencing.  I think this is a marker that says that
> > sequences are not allowed on unprotected connections, but are (or
> > are not forbidden) in protected connections.  I see no reason to
> > take this out.  EAP is not constrained to run in an unprotected
> > mode, and this indicates that everything should be the same in
> > protected mode, except that method sequences are possible.
>
> Ashwin Palekar thought that there actually are other differences,
> and the current SM (with the EapTunnelled flag) doesn't correctly
> describe the behavior of existing tunneled methods (and Yoshihiro
> seemed to agree with him).
>
> I think they're right... there are some tricky issues relating to
> e.g. interrupting a method that hasn't yet finished and dealing
> with methods that have protected result indications.
>

I agree that some tricky tunnelling issues may exist when tunnelling, but 
in principal a method that runs on outside a tunnell should run inside.  If 
we are saying that one does something different inside a tunnel then it 
seems that tunnelled EAP and EAP are quite different, and then we should 
wait to get tunnelled EAP sorted out before doing methods.

If there are reasons for not including this, I would at least like to know 
some specifics.  I would think we could have something now that is 
restrictive and expand later in a draft for tunnelled EAP to support 
expanded issues like interrupted methods and handling protected results.


> 2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I
> think the state machine document should not specify them either.
>

I agree.  The tunnelled attribute limits what can be done untunnelled.  It 
doesn't add anything.

What do you think?

-- John
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From: "Joseph Salowey" <jsalowey@cisco.com>
To: <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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Hi Jari,

Thanks for the review.  Comments inline below.

Thanks,

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net] 
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:33 AM
> To: Joe Salowey
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: some comments on 
> draft-josefsson-pppext-eap-tls-eap-07 (peapv2)
> 
> 
> 
> I read this document on the way to Minneapolis, and have
> some questions and comments:
> 
> Substantial:
> 
> 1. Section 1, identity protection. Wouldn't it still be
>     possible to have an active attack against identity protection?
>     This seems possible
>       - if one of the other servers trusted by the CA
>         wants to intervene (or do you require specific
>         server cert?)
>       - if the client won't or can't (network access case)
>         check the CRL and the server's key has been compromised

[Joe] Yes, if the client fails to correctly authenticate and authorize
the server then attacks on identity are possible.  PEAP does not require
a particular certificate profile, it is currently up to the deployment.
Individaul servers could authenticated, but it is not clear that that is
generally required.  It is also possible for the client and server to
support TLS extensison to use OSCP for certificate validation.  

 
> 3. Section 2, the possibility of running zero EAP methods
>     in part 2. What would be the usefulness of that over
>     running EAP TLS? The ability to send TLVs?
> 

[Joe] EAP-TLS requires client authentication. PEAP can be run with
server only authentication and provide anonymous access to the client.
The ability to send TLVs is also very very useful

> 5. I wonder if the protocol specification would be clearer
>     with a state machine. I'm not 100% convinced that all
>     the cases have been covered in the text, and its hard
>     to visualize what is happening. Maybe its just me, but...
> 
[Joe] this would probably be helpful.


> 6. Section 4.7, Connection-Binding TLV. This is very
>     interesting! You say that the actual parameters are
>     defined by the link layers. But this does not appear
>     to suffice for the definition of the format on how
>     they are carried in this TLV, or? How would we know
>     which parameters and in which order are sent here
>     unless the 802.11i, for instance, explicitly said that
>     SSID and MAC address were carried inside PEAPv2 in
>     a particular way?
> 
[Joe] The connection binding TLV is meant to provide a way to bind PEAP
to lower layer parameters.  The exact information is specific to the
application that is using PEAP such as 802.11i or IKE or ???.  We also
need to describe a bit more about the processing of this data since the
EAP-Server may not have enough information to validate it.  In general I
think this information would be provide to the AAA code as
"authenticated channel attributes" since the AAA portion of the system
would have a better idea of what to do with them.


> 7. What is the purpose and semantics of the URI TLV?
>
[Joe] Good question.  Maybe Ashwin can provide more details.


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From: John Vollbrecht <jrv@umich.edu>
To: Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com, aboba@internaut.com, eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the
 Identity Response
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I like this -- John

--On Friday, November 21, 2003 2:47 PM +0200 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:

> Bernard Aboba wrote:
> >
> > The text of Issue 189 is enclosed below.  The proposed fix is
> > as follows:
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > To the following:
> >
> > "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
> > for routing purposes and that EAP Methods SHOULD include an
> > method-specific mechanism for obtaining the identity, so that
> > they do not have to rely on the Identity Response. Identity
> > Requests and Responses are not protected, so from a privacy
> > perspective it is preferable for an EAP method to include its
> > own protected identity exchange. The Identity Response may
> > not be the appropriate identity for the method; it may have
> > been truncated or obfuscated so as to provide privacy; or it
> > may have been decorated for routing purposes. Where the peer
> > is configured to only accept authentication methods
> > supporting protected identity exchanges, the peer MAY
> > provide an abbreviated Identity Response (such as omitting
> > the peer-name portion of the NAI [RFC2486]). For further
> > discussion of identity protection, see Section 7.3.
>
> This omits the point that Identity Response is also used to
> select which method to use. I suggest we rephrase the beginning
> something like this:
>
>   "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
>   for routing purposes and selecting which EAP Method to use.
>   EAP Methods SHOULD include an method-specific..."
>
> Best regards,
> Pasi
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 14:44:06 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: John Vollbrecht <jrv@umich.edu>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 189: Handling of the Identity
 Response
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agreed.

Nick L. Petroni, Jr.
Graduate Student, Computer Science
Maryland Information Systems Security Lab
University of Maryland
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~npetroni

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, John Vollbrecht wrote:

>
> I like this -- John
>
> --On Friday, November 21, 2003 2:47 PM +0200 Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:
>
> > Bernard Aboba wrote:
> > >
> > > The text of Issue 189 is enclosed below.  The proposed fix is
> > > as follows:
> > >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > To the following:
> > >
> > > "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
> > > for routing purposes and that EAP Methods SHOULD include an
> > > method-specific mechanism for obtaining the identity, so that
> > > they do not have to rely on the Identity Response. Identity
> > > Requests and Responses are not protected, so from a privacy
> > > perspective it is preferable for an EAP method to include its
> > > own protected identity exchange. The Identity Response may
> > > not be the appropriate identity for the method; it may have
> > > been truncated or obfuscated so as to provide privacy; or it
> > > may have been decorated for routing purposes. Where the peer
> > > is configured to only accept authentication methods
> > > supporting protected identity exchanges, the peer MAY
> > > provide an abbreviated Identity Response (such as omitting
> > > the peer-name portion of the NAI [RFC2486]). For further
> > > discussion of identity protection, see Section 7.3.
> >
> > This omits the point that Identity Response is also used to
> > select which method to use. I suggest we rephrase the beginning
> > something like this:
> >
> >   "It is RECOMMENDED that the Identity Response be used primarily
> >   for routing purposes and selecting which EAP Method to use.
> >   EAP Methods SHOULD include an method-specific..."
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Pasi
> > _______________________________________________
> > eap mailing list
> > eap@frascone.com
> > http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
>

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Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 198: Other EAP Peer SM Issues
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> > Ashwin Palekar thought that there actually are other 
> differences, and 
> > the current SM (with the EapTunnelled flag) doesn't 
> correctly describe 
> > the behavior of existing tunneled methods (and Yoshihiro seemed to 
> > agree with him).
> >
> > I think they're right... there are some tricky issues 
> relating to e.g. 
> > interrupting a method that hasn't yet finished and dealing with 
> > methods that have protected result indications.
> >
> 
> I agree that some tricky tunnelling issues may exist when 
> tunnelling, but 
> in principal a method that runs on outside a tunnell should 
> run inside.  If 
> we are saying that one does something different inside a 
> tunnel then it 
> seems that tunnelled EAP and EAP are quite different, and 
> then we should 
> wait to get tunnelled EAP sorted out before doing methods.
> 
[Joe] I don't think the problem is methods behaving differently inside
and outside the tunnel, but rather in how the tunnels behave themselves.

> If there are reasons for not including this, I would at least 
> like to know 
> some specifics.  I would think we could have something now that is 
> restrictive and expand later in a draft for tunnelled EAP to support 
> expanded issues like interrupted methods and handling 
> protected results.
> 
[Joe] There are several issues to consider: how inner authenticaiton is
bound to the tunneling layer, how the peer and server maintain
synchronicity of state, and there are probably others. I think that
having something now that is restrictive is not good.  I think it would
be very worthwile to explore these issues outside of the SM and 2284bis.



> 
> > 2284bis does _not_ specify how to handle these issues, so I 
> think the 
> > state machine document should not specify them either.
> >
> 
> I agree.  The tunnelled attribute limits what can be done 
> untunnelled.  It 
> doesn't add anything.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> -- John
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 15:16:59 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 193: Peer SM review
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Sorry I am just getting around to commenting. Comments inline.

>
> "pass EAP messages to a Backend Server where the real Authentication
> Method resides"
>
> As is made clear later, the pass-through authenticator does *not* forward
> all EAP messages to the backend authentication server, only EAP-Responses.
> Rephrase to:
>
> "pass EAP-Response messages to a Backend Server where the Authentication
> Method resides"

ok.

> Third paragraph:
>
> The implication is the EAP method demultiplexing depends on the lower
> layer. This is not the case because all EAP implementations on all media
> must support  demultiplexing (whether they support an authenticator or
> peer listener is another issue).
>
> Suggest replacing the paragraph with:
>
> "As noted in RFC 2284bis, Section 2.3, the EAP layer demultiplexes
> incoming EAP packets. Packets with Code=2 (Response) are delivered to the
> Authenticator state  machine, while packets with Code=1 (Request), 3
> (Success) or 4 (Failure) are  delivered to the Peer state machine."

ok.

> Page 9, Figure 3.
>
> The notation used later (Figure 6) is more clear than the use of the "|"
> operator as in Figure 3. I'd recommend adopting the Figure 6 notation
> everywhere.

sure, it doesn't matter to me. The notation is clearly stated, but it's
fine if the second way is more readable.

> It would appear to me that methodState is a variable that needs to be
> exported from the peer to the lower layer. This is so that lower layer
> state  machines such as 802.1X can know whether their own state machines
> should be  affected or not.

already discussed, I agree with Yoshihiro.

>
> The INITIALIZE state does not initialize all variables. Non-initialized
> variables
> include:
>
> eapKeyData = NONE
> eapKeyAvailable = FALSE
> eapSuccess = FALSE
> eapFail = FALSE
> methodState = NONE
> selectedMethod = NONE
> decision = FAIL
>
> The initialization values seem important since transitions can be based on
> them before they are initialized. Re-initializing variables in the
> INITIALIZE  state is a bit different from giving the variables initial
> values before they are ever used.

agreed.

>
> Not sure what "decision = FAIL | COND_SUCC" means in the INITIALIZE state.
> I assume this means that this variable can be assigned one of two values,
> at the  implementation's descretion. I think we want this variable
> initialized to FAIL.

The problem here is that while the default value is to NOT accept a canned
success, there are protocols wehre canned success is used. For example,
figure 8-10 of 802.1X-REV contains a txCannedSuccess() function. If we don
not handle this on the EAP side, they will have to explicitly check for it
themselves. Perhaps we should note that the preferred vale is FAIL, but
that COND_SUCC is also possible for those willing to accept canned succes.

> There is a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS and FAILURE
> states. This occurs without appearing to require receipt of a packet. I
> think that this can't  be the case;  something has to be received at some
> point for the peer to leave idleWhile  OR it is a situation where the peer
> is testing whether the authenticator is  EAP-capable (e.g.
> a wired LAN application).
perhaps this should be a separate issue. It seems that if a canned success
is allowed, a canned alternative success also should be,but this reduces
to a no-EAP-message protocol. Sounds funny.

> The transition to FAILURE state occurs when an alternative indication of
> Rejection occurs (e.g. Disassociate); when the idleWhile timer runs out
> and the decision is not an unconditional success; when an alternative
> indication of success is available but the decision is FAIL.
>
> There is also a transition from the IDLE state to the SUCCESS state.
> This can occur when the idleWhile timer runs out and the decision is
> an unconditional success; or when an alternative indication of success
> is available and the decision is not FAILURE.
>
> It seems that the INITIALIZE state will need to have the correct default
> values or these transitions may not occur correctly.

yes. agree the initailizations should be explicit.


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 21 18:09:00 2003
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From: "Joseph Salowey" <jsalowey@cisco.com>
To: "'Bernard Aboba'" <aboba@internaut.com>, <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 200: Endpoint verification
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I'm a little worried about the usage of EAP server and AAA server
terminology.  I don't think that these two entities are the same thing.
An EAP-Server is typically embedded within the AAA server, but I don't
think that this has to be the case.  In particular the EAP-Server knows
how to execute EAP mechanisms, but it knows little or nothing about the
underlying application using EAP.  The underlying application is the
domain of the AAA server.

Also if discrepancies exist in the data provided to the AAA may it be
appropriate to take action beyond logging?

Suggested revision below:

> 
> 7.15  Endpoint Verification
> 
> It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP 
> authenticator to communicate inconsistent information to
> the EAP peer and server.   This may enable an authenticator
> to impersonate another authenticator or communicate
> incorrect information via out-of-band mechanisms such as via 
> a AAA or lower layer protocol.
> 
> Where EAP is used in passthrough mode, the EAP peer typically 
> does not verify the identity of the authenticator, it only 
> verifies that the authenticator is trusted by the EAP server. 
>  This lack of endpoint verification creates a potential 
> security vulnerability.
> 
> While [RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP 
> authenticator providing incorrect information to a AAA server 
> (such as a forged NAS-Identifier, NAS-IP-Address or NAS-IPv6-Address
> attributes) can be detected, it is possible for the AP to 
> provide the correct information to the AAA server while 
> communicating incorrect information to the EAP peer via a 
> lower layer protocol.
> 
> For example, it is possible for an authenticator to utilize 
> another authenticator's Calling-Station-Id in communicating 
> with the EAP peer, or for the authenticator to provide 
> incorrect information on the peer's Calling-Station-Id to the 
> AAA server.
> 
> In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may 
> support a protected  exchange of endpoint identifiers, 
> including (but not limited to): Called-Station-Id 
> [RFC2865][RFC3580], Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], 
> NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and 
> NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].
> 
> Using such an exchange,  the EAP server could match the 
> Called-Station-Id and Calling-Station-Id provided by the EAP 
> peer against that provided by the authenticator via the AAA 
> protocol. Similarly, if the peer is provided with the 
> authenticator's NAS-Identifier, NAS-IP-Address or 
> NAS-IPv6-Address via the lower layer protocol, it could 
> provide this information to the EAP server via the EAP 
> method, allowing the EAP server to match it against the 
> equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the 
> AAA protocol.  Where discrepancies exist, these SHOULD be logged.
> 
[Joe] replace 

"allowing the EAP server to match it against the 
equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the 
AAA protocol."

With 

"allowing the EAP server to provide this information to the AAA 
server to match it against the equivalent information provided 
by the authenticator via the AAA protocol."


> Add to non-normative references:
> 
> [RFC2865]      Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson,
> "Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)",
> RFC 2865, June 2000.
> 
> [RFC3162]      Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and IP6",
> RFC 3162, August 2001.
> 
> [RFC3580]      Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J.
> Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User
> Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580,
> September 2003.
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sat Nov 22 12:48:59 2003
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To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>,
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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 200: Endpoint verification
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--On Friday, November 21, 2003 3:08 PM -0800 Joseph Salowey 
<jsalowey@cisco.com> wrote:

> I'm a little worried about the usage of EAP server and AAA server
> terminology.  I don't think that these two entities are the same thing.
> An EAP-Server is typically embedded within the AAA server, but I don't
> think that this has to be the case.  In particular the EAP-Server knows
> how to execute EAP mechanisms, but it knows little or nothing about the
> underlying application using EAP.  The underlying application is the
> domain of the AAA server.
>
> Also if discrepancies exist in the data provided to the AAA may it be
> appropriate to take action beyond logging?
>
> Suggested revision below:
>
> >
> > 7.15  Endpoint Verification
> >
> > It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP
> > authenticator to communicate inconsistent information to
> > the EAP peer and server.   This may enable an authenticator
> > to impersonate another authenticator or communicate
> > incorrect information via out-of-band mechanisms such as via
> > a AAA or lower layer protocol.
> >
> > Where EAP is used in passthrough mode, the EAP peer typically
> > does not verify the identity of the authenticator, it only
> > verifies that the authenticator is trusted by the EAP server.
> >  This lack of endpoint verification creates a potential
> > security vulnerability.
> >
> > While [RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP
> > authenticator providing incorrect information to a AAA server
> > (such as a forged NAS-Identifier, NAS-IP-Address or NAS-IPv6-Address
> > attributes) can be detected, it is possible for the AP to
> > provide the correct information to the AAA server while
> > communicating incorrect information to the EAP peer via a
> > lower layer protocol.
> >

This is certainly true.  I am not sure what the consequences are.  Nothing 
in the spec says what except the EAP packet and perhaps the Identity gets 
passed to the EAP method.

> > For example, it is possible for an authenticator to utilize
> > another authenticator's Calling-Station-Id in communicating
> > with the EAP peer, or for the authenticator to provide
> > incorrect information on the peer's Calling-Station-Id to the
> > AAA server.
> >
In this case the AP is lying accross the interface to either EAP directly 
or to AAA and to EAP indirectly.  In the latter case it has a fraudulent 
RADIUS packet sent from a trusted AP to the RADIUS server.

> > In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may
> > support a protected  exchange of endpoint identifiers,
> > including (but not limited to): Called-Station-Id
> > [RFC2865][RFC3580], Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580],
> > NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and
> > NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].
> >
This may be needed to create a binding with this info to a key in methods 
that create keys.  If this information is not included in EAP exchange but 
passed by the AP to the EAP method (directly or indirectly via AAA 
protocol) and then included in the key binding, then perhaps this attribute 
passing capability should be included in the spec.

Including it in methods seems reasonable suggestion.

> > Using such an exchange,  the EAP server could match the
> > Called-Station-Id and Calling-Station-Id provided by the EAP
> > peer against that provided by the authenticator via the AAA
> > protocol. Similarly, if the peer is provided with the
> > authenticator's NAS-Identifier, NAS-IP-Address or
> > NAS-IPv6-Address via the lower layer protocol, it could
> > provide this information to the EAP server via the EAP
> > method, allowing the EAP server to match it against the
> > equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the
> > AAA protocol.  Where discrepancies exist, these SHOULD be logged.
> >
> [Joe] replace
>
> "allowing the EAP server to match it against the
> equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the
> AAA protocol."
>
> With
>
> "allowing the EAP server to provide this information to the AAA
> server to match it against the equivalent information provided
> by the authenticator via the AAA protocol."
>
>
I think this is a good statement, except that it doesn't seem to matter 
whether the information is provided directly by the AP or indirectly by the 
AAA protocol.  So - the AP could lie to EAP, or the RADIUS Server could lie 
to EAP.  I think both cases should be included.

Also, I am not sure that the EAP Server per se would do the checking, but 
the EAP method could.   Perhaps the EAP Server and method are the same in 
this instance? The terminology is a bit unclear to me.   Since the Client 
and AP can use the key to verify that the Client and EAP Server/method 
created the key, one check is made when the AP and Client initiate 
communication with the key.  The check could be made somewhere else as 
well, but I am not clear exacly where it is useful - perhaps someone could 
explain.

-- John

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Subject: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint Verification
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The text of Issue 200 is enclosed below.  The proposed resolution is as
follows:

Add to sections 5.1, 5.2, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 the following
security claim:

Endpoint verification: No
Add the following definition to section 7.2.1:

Endpoint verification
The verification within an EAP method of endpoint
identifiers communicated out of band (such as via
a AAA or lower layer protocol).

Add to Section 7.1:

[10] An attacker acting as an authenticator may provide
inconsistent information to the EAP peer
and server. This includes impersonating another
authenticator, or communicating incorrect information
via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via
a AAA or lower layer protocol).

Add Section 7.15:

7.15 Endpoint Verification

It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP
authenticator to communicate incorrect information to the EAP
peer and/or server. This may enable an authenticator
to impersonate another authenticator or communicate
incorrect information via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via a
AAA or lower layer protocol).

Where EAP is used in pass-through mode, the EAP peer typically
does not verify the identity of the pass-through authenticator, it
only verifies that the pass-through authenticator is trusted by the EAP
server.  This lack of endpoint verification creates a potential
security vulnerability.

[RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP pass-through authenticator
acting as a AAA client can be detected if it attempts to impersonate
another authenticator (such by sending incorrect NAS-Identifier [RFC2865],
NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865] or NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162] attributes
via the AAA protocol). However, it is possible for a pass-through
authenticator acting as a AAA client to provide correct information to
the AAA server while communicating misleading information to the EAP peer
via a lower layer protocol.

For example, it is possible for a compromised authenticator to utilize
another authenticator's Called-Station-Id in communicating with the EAP
peer via a lower layer protocol, or for a pass-through authenticator
acting as a AAA client to provide an incorrect peer Calling-Station-Id
[RFC2865] [RFC3580] to the AAA server via the AAA protocol.

In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may support
a protected exchange of endpoint identifiers, including
(but not limited to): Called-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580],
Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865],
NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].

Using such an exchange, the EAP peer and server can match parameters
provided by the authenticator (such as endpoint identifiers) via
out-of-band mechanisms against those exchanged within the EAP method.
Where discrepancies exist, these SHOULD be logged; additional actions MAY
also be taken, such as denying access.

Add to non-normative references:

[RFC2865] Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson,
"Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)",
RFC 2865, June 2000.

[RFC3162] Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and IP6",
RFC 3162, August 2001.

[RFC3580] Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J.
Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User
Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580,
September 2003.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue 200: Endpoint verification
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: Nov 17, 2003
Reference:
http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001845.html
Document: RFC2284bis-06
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 5, 7
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

The Security Claims section doesn't include a claim for
a solution to the "Lying NAS" problem, and this attack
is not included in the threat model either.

[Joe Salowey] I'm a little worried about the usage of EAP server and AAA
server terminology.  I don't think that these two entities are the same
thing.

An EAP-Server is typically embedded within the AAA server, but I don't
think that this has to be the case.  In particular the EAP-Server knows
how to execute EAP mechanisms, but it knows little or nothing about the
underlying application using EAP.  The underlying application is the
domain of the AAA server.

Also if discrepancies exist in the data provided to the AAA may it be
appropriate to take action beyond logging?
Replace:

"allowing the EAP server to match it against the
equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the
AAA protocol."

With

"allowing the EAP server to provide this information to the AAA
server to match it against the equivalent information provided
by the authenticator via the AAA protocol."

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov 24 08:34:00 2003
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Subject: [eap] Proposed resolutions to Greg's comments on EAP SIM and EAP AKA
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Hi everyone,=20

I just forwarded Greg Rose's comments on EAP SIM
to this mailing list. I'm not sure the file will=20
be posted because it is quite big. If not, I'll
make it available at some www page.

Most of Greg's comments on EAP SIM are easy to resolve just=20
by incorporating them in the document. Most of them are
relevant to EAP AKA too, so we'll update it as well.
Please see below for discussion on the ones that need=20
more attention.

The changes are clarifications and corrections on=20
the specification language. There won't be any=20
technical changes to the protocol.

Regards,
Henry

--

The usage of owlan.org in the NAI realm portion:=20
The 3gppnetwork.org realm should be used instead of owlan.org,=20
once the the 3GPP spec is stable. I wonder if it already is.=20
The owlan.org thing was introduced before the 3GPP standardization.=20
It could still be mentioned to inform people that it is=20
used by some implementations.
I don't think there are DNS servers at owlan.org, so this realm can
only be used for manually configured AAA routing.

Re-authentication: It is included because it is recommended
in 802.11i. There are good reasons to believe that EAP=20
authentication will be performed frequently. It could be OK to use=20
the full authentication procedure instead.
The re-authentication procedure is optional, and the operator can=20
take into use only once there is evidence that it is needed.

What NAI realm to use with pseudonym usernames and=20
re-authentication usernames: We should probably discuss this=20
some more in the document. We assume that all servers are
able to map pseudonyms to the permanent identity. So the peer=20
can use the same realm name with pseudonyms as it uses
with the permanent identity, and it does not matter if the
server is different. For example, if the 3GPP pseudonym mechanism
is used, then the servers share a pseudonym encryption key which
they can use to decode each other's pseudonyms. (There is
also a mechanism to request for the permanent identity in case
the server fails to map the pseudonym to the permanent identity.)
We have included a realm in the re-authentication identities assigned=20
by the server. This should allow the re-authentication requests
to be routed to the same server that performed=20
the full authentication.

Encrypting the NONCE_S: it would not be necessary. It is encrypted=20
just because it _can_ be, and the encryption doesn't cost anything.=20
All parameters in this message are encrypted.

Use of CTR mode instead of CBC: Yes, it would be a lot more convenient.=20
We have been avoiding any incompatible changes unless they are
critical. So we think we shouldn't change this for the first versions=20
of the protocol, because the CBC mode doesn't have any critical=20
problems. But if there are other reasons to break compatibility in=20
some later version, we should definitely consider replacing=20
the CBC mode too.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov 24 14:29:07 2003
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From: "Joseph Salowey" <jsalowey@cisco.com>
To: "'Bernard Aboba'" <aboba@internaut.com>, <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint Verification
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I still find this section to be problematic, comments inlien below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] 
> On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 8:44 AM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint Verification
> 
> 
> The text of Issue 200 is enclosed below.  The proposed 
> resolution is as
> follows:
> 
> Add to sections 5.1, 5.2, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 the 
> following security claim:
> 
> Endpoint verification: No
> Add the following definition to section 7.2.1:
> 
> Endpoint verification
> The verification within an EAP method of endpoint
> identifiers communicated out of band (such as via
> a AAA or lower layer protocol).

[Joe]Having this verification within an EAP-Method is problemaitc.  It
requires the EAP-Method to have a lot of specific details about the
environment in which it is used.  EAP-methods should be independent of
the environemnt.  

I would rather see 

"Channel Binding

The communiction of integrity protected data of underlying channel
proterties such as endpoint identifiers that can be compared outside the
EAP method to values communicated via out of band mechanisms (such as
via a AAA or lower layer protocol)."




> 
> Add to Section 7.1:
> 
> [10] An attacker acting as an authenticator may provide 
> inconsistent information to the EAP peer and server. This 
> includes impersonating another authenticator, or 
> communicating incorrect information via out-of-band 
> mechanisms (such as via a AAA or lower layer protocol).
> 
> Add Section 7.15:
> 
> 7.15 Endpoint Verification

[Joe] Replace with "Channel Binding"

> 
> It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP 
> authenticator to communicate incorrect information to the EAP 
> peer and/or server. This may enable an authenticator to 
> impersonate another authenticator or communicate incorrect 
> information via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via a AAA or 
> lower layer protocol).
> 
> Where EAP is used in pass-through mode, the EAP peer 
> typically does not verify the identity of the pass-through 
> authenticator, it only verifies that the pass-through 
> authenticator is trusted by the EAP server.  This lack of 
> endpoint verification creates a potential security vulnerability.
> 
> [RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP pass-through 
> authenticator acting as a AAA client can be detected if it 
> attempts to impersonate another authenticator (such by 
> sending incorrect NAS-Identifier [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address 
> [RFC2865] or NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162] attributes via the 
> AAA protocol). However, it is possible for a pass-through 
> authenticator acting as a AAA client to provide correct 
> information to the AAA server while communicating misleading 
> information to the EAP peer via a lower layer protocol.
> 
> For example, it is possible for a compromised authenticator 
> to utilize another authenticator's Called-Station-Id in 
> communicating with the EAP peer via a lower layer protocol, 
> or for a pass-through authenticator acting as a AAA client to 
> provide an incorrect peer Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865] 
> [RFC3580] to the AAA server via the AAA protocol.
> 
> In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may 
> support a protected exchange of endpoint identifiers, 
> including (but not limited to): Called-Station-Id 
> [RFC2865][RFC3580], Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], 
> NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and 
> NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].
> 
> Using such an exchange, the EAP peer and server can match 
> parameters provided by the authenticator (such as endpoint 
> identifiers) via out-of-band mechanisms against those 
> exchanged within the EAP method. Where discrepancies exist, 
> these SHOULD be logged; additional actions MAY also be taken, 
> such as denying access.
> 
> Add to non-normative references:
> 
> [RFC2865] Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson, 
> "Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)", RFC 
> 2865, June 2000.
> 
> [RFC3162] Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and 
> IP6", RFC 3162, August 2001.
> 
> [RFC3580] Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J. 
> Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User 
> Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580, September 2003.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> Issue 200: Endpoint verification
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 17, 2003
> Reference: 
> http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/00
1845.html
Document: RFC2284bis-06
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: 5, 7
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

The Security Claims section doesn't include a claim for
a solution to the "Lying NAS" problem, and this attack
is not included in the threat model either.

[Joe Salowey] I'm a little worried about the usage of EAP server and AAA
server terminology.  I don't think that these two entities are the same
thing.

An EAP-Server is typically embedded within the AAA server, but I don't
think that this has to be the case.  In particular the EAP-Server knows
how to execute EAP mechanisms, but it knows little or nothing about the
underlying application using EAP.  The underlying application is the
domain of the AAA server.

Also if discrepancies exist in the data provided to the AAA may it be
appropriate to take action beyond logging?
Replace:

"allowing the EAP server to match it against the
equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the AAA
protocol."

With

"allowing the EAP server to provide this information to the AAA server
to match it against the equivalent information provided by the
authenticator via the AAA protocol."

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Mon Nov 24 16:08:00 2003
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From: John Vollbrecht <jrv@umich.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint Verification
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nice - I like it.  John

--On Sunday, November 23, 2003 8:43 AM -0800 Bernard Aboba 
<aboba@internaut.com> wrote:

> The text of Issue 200 is enclosed below.  The proposed resolution is as
> follows:
>
> Add to sections 5.1, 5.2, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 the following
> security claim:
>
> Endpoint verification: No
> Add the following definition to section 7.2.1:
>
> Endpoint verification
> The verification within an EAP method of endpoint
> identifiers communicated out of band (such as via
> a AAA or lower layer protocol).
>
> Add to Section 7.1:
>
> [10] An attacker acting as an authenticator may provide
> inconsistent information to the EAP peer
> and server. This includes impersonating another
> authenticator, or communicating incorrect information
> via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via
> a AAA or lower layer protocol).
>
> Add Section 7.15:
>
> 7.15 Endpoint Verification
>
> It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP
> authenticator to communicate incorrect information to the EAP
> peer and/or server. This may enable an authenticator
> to impersonate another authenticator or communicate
> incorrect information via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via a
> AAA or lower layer protocol).
>
> Where EAP is used in pass-through mode, the EAP peer typically
> does not verify the identity of the pass-through authenticator, it
> only verifies that the pass-through authenticator is trusted by the EAP
> server.  This lack of endpoint verification creates a potential
> security vulnerability.
>
> [RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP pass-through authenticator
> acting as a AAA client can be detected if it attempts to impersonate
> another authenticator (such by sending incorrect NAS-Identifier [RFC2865],
> NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865] or NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162] attributes
> via the AAA protocol). However, it is possible for a pass-through
> authenticator acting as a AAA client to provide correct information to
> the AAA server while communicating misleading information to the EAP peer
> via a lower layer protocol.
>
> For example, it is possible for a compromised authenticator to utilize
> another authenticator's Called-Station-Id in communicating with the EAP
> peer via a lower layer protocol, or for a pass-through authenticator
> acting as a AAA client to provide an incorrect peer Calling-Station-Id
> [RFC2865] [RFC3580] to the AAA server via the AAA protocol.
>
> In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may support
> a protected exchange of endpoint identifiers, including
> (but not limited to): Called-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580],
> Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865],
> NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].
>
> Using such an exchange, the EAP peer and server can match parameters
> provided by the authenticator (such as endpoint identifiers) via
> out-of-band mechanisms against those exchanged within the EAP method.
> Where discrepancies exist, these SHOULD be logged; additional actions MAY
> also be taken, such as denying access.
>
> Add to non-normative references:
>
> [RFC2865] Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson,
> "Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)",
> RFC 2865, June 2000.
>
> [RFC3162] Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and IP6",
> RFC 3162, August 2001.
>
> [RFC3580] Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J.
> Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User
> Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580,
> September 2003.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Issue 200: Endpoint verification
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 17, 2003
> Reference:
> http://mail.frascone.com/pipermail/public/eap/2003-November/001845.html
> Document: RFC2284bis-06
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 5, 7
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
>
> The Security Claims section doesn't include a claim for
> a solution to the "Lying NAS" problem, and this attack
> is not included in the threat model either.
>
> [Joe Salowey] I'm a little worried about the usage of EAP server and AAA
> server terminology.  I don't think that these two entities are the same
> thing.
>
> An EAP-Server is typically embedded within the AAA server, but I don't
> think that this has to be the case.  In particular the EAP-Server knows
> how to execute EAP mechanisms, but it knows little or nothing about the
> underlying application using EAP.  The underlying application is the
> domain of the AAA server.
>
> Also if discrepancies exist in the data provided to the AAA may it be
> appropriate to take action beyond logging?
> Replace:
>
> "allowing the EAP server to match it against the
> equivalent information provided by the authenticator via the
> AAA protocol."
>
> With
>
> "allowing the EAP server to provide this information to the AAA
> server to match it against the equivalent information provided
> by the authenticator via the AAA protocol."
>
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Tue Nov 25 02:38:01 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint Verification
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OK.  How does this look?

Add to sections 5.1, 5.2, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 the following
security claim:

Channel Binding: No

Add the following definition to section 7.2.1:

Channel binding
The communication within an EAP method of integrity-protected channel properties
such as endpoint identifiers which can be compared to values communicated via out
of band mechanisms (such as via a AAA or lower layer protocol).

Add to Section 7.1:

[10] An attacker acting as an authenticator may provide incorrect
information to the EAP peer and/or server via out-of-band mechanisms
(such as via a AAA or lower layer protocol).  This includes impersonating
another authenticator, or providing inconsistent information to the peer
and EAP server.

Add Section 7.15:

7.15 Channel binding

It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP
authenticator to communicate incorrect information to the EAP
peer and/or server. This may enable an authenticator
to impersonate another authenticator or communicate
incorrect information via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via a
AAA or lower layer protocol).

Where EAP is used in pass-through mode, the EAP peer typically
does not verify the identity of the pass-through authenticator, it
only verifies that the pass-through authenticator is trusted by the EAP
server.  This creates a potential security vulnerability.

[RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP pass-through authenticator
acting as a AAA client can be detected if it attempts to impersonate
another authenticator (such by sending incorrect NAS-Identifier [RFC2865],
NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865] or NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162] attributes
via the AAA protocol). However, it is possible for a pass-through
authenticator acting as a AAA client to provide correct information to
the AAA server while communicating misleading information to the EAP peer
via a lower layer protocol.

For example, it is possible for a compromised authenticator to utilize
another authenticator's Called-Station-Id or NAS-Identifier in
communicating with the EAP peer via a lower layer protocol, or for a
pass-through authenticator acting as a AAA client to provide an incorrect
peer Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865] [RFC3580] to the AAA server via the AAA protocol.

In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may support
a protected exchange of channel properties such as endpoint identifiers,
including (but not limited to): Called-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580],
Calling-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865],
NAS-IP-Address [RFC2865], and NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].

Using such a protected exchange, it is possible to match the channel
properties provided by the authenticator via out-of-band mechanisms
against those exchanged within the EAP method.  Where discrepancies are found,
these SHOULD be logged; additional actions MAY also be taken, such as
denying access.

Add to non-normative references:

[RFC2865] Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson,
"Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)",
RFC 2865, June 2000.

[RFC3162] Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and IP6",
RFC 3162, August 2001.

[RFC3580] Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J.
Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User
Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580,
September 2003.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Tue Nov 25 03:11:58 2003
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Subject: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
Date first submitted: 11/24/2003
Reference:
http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/private/x-REV-drafts/d7/802-1X-rev-d7-1-dis.pdf
(See disposition of comment 15)
Document:  SM-01
Comment type: T
Priority: S
Section: Various
Rationale/Explanation of issue:

As noted in the IEEE 802.1XD7.1 ballot resolution, comment 15, the current
EAP SMs do not fully support peer-to-peer operation.

The current EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for the EAP method to
signal to EAP and the lower layer that mutual authentication has been
achieved.

In addition, the EAP authenticator SM does not provide a mechanism for the
EAP layer to indicate to the lower layer that a protected result
indication has been received from the peer, indicating that the peer has
authenticated the authenticator.

Similarly, the EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for the EAP layer
to indicate to the lower layer that a protected result indication has been
received from the authenticator, indicating that the Authenticator has
authenticated the peer.

As a result of these missing indications, it is not possible for EAP to
provide for mutual opening of the 802.1X controlled ports for use in
peer-to-peer operation, even where a method providing for protected result
indications is in use.
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Subject: [eap] Greg Rose's review on EAP SIM
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The PDF file with Greg Rose's review is available at the following URL:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~haverinh/draft-haverinen-pppext-eap.pdf

Please see anothre posting to this mailing list for=20
how we plan to incorporate the proposed changes.

-----Original Message-----
From: Haverinen Henry (NES/Jyvaskyla)=20
Sent: 24 November, 2003 14:06
To: eap@frascone.com
Subject: FW: EAP-SIM review



Please find below some comments on EAP SIM from Greg Rose.
Most comments also apply to EAP AKA.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Greg Rose [mailto:ggr@qualcomm.com]
Sent: 12 November, 2003 05:16
To: Haverinen Henry (NES/Jyvaskyla)
Cc: ggr@qualcomm.com; Niemi Valtteri (NRC/Helsinki)
Subject: RE: EAP-SIM and EAP-AKA Review?


I've reviewed the EAP-SIM one. Unfortunately I'm running out of time at =
the=20
moment and probably won't be able to get to EAP-AKA, although I wouldn't =
be=20
surprised if some of the comments are common to both. Anyway, see =
attached=20
PDF document with yellow highlights. Tell me if you have any trouble =
with it.

regards,
Greg.

At 01:51 AM 11/4/2003, henry.haverinen@nokia.com wrote:

>Greg,
>
>We have revised the EAP SIM and EAP AKA documents, and the latest
>versions are available at the following URLs. We'd still
>very much appreciate your comments on the drafts, especially
>on EAP AKA that has received less review.
>
>Best regards,
>Henry
>
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-haverinen-pppext-eap-sim-12.tx=
t
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-pppext-eap-aka-11.txt
>


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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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From: <Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com>
To: <aboba@internaut.com>, <eap@frascone.com>
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Bernard Aboba wrote:
> As noted in the IEEE 802.1XD7.1 ballot resolution, comment 15,
> the current EAP SMs do not fully support peer-to-peer
> operation.
>
> The current EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for the
> EAP method to signal to EAP and the lower layer that mutual
> authentication has been achieved.
>
> In addition, the EAP authenticator SM does not provide a
> mechanism for the EAP layer to indicate to the lower layer
> that a protected result indication has been received from the
> peer, indicating that the peer has authenticated the
> authenticator.
>
> Similarly, the EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for
> the EAP layer to indicate to the lower layer that a protected
> result indication has been received from the authenticator,
> indicating that the Authenticator has authenticated the peer.
>
> As a result of these missing indications, it is not possible
> for EAP to provide for mutual opening of the 802.1X controlled
> ports for use in peer-to-peer operation, even where a method
> providing for protected result indications is in use.

Hmm, I'm not sure if I understand this... Is this issue about the=20
case when there are two independent EAP conversations (i.e. both=20
parties act as peers and authenticators), or ordinary mutual=20
authentication with only a single EAP conversation?

The latter case should be rather simple, since setting the
controlled port to "authorized" when eapSuccess is set=20
seems to be exactly the right thing to do (and the lower
layer doesn't really need to know anything else).

In the former case, both parties have both peer and
authenticator state machines, and this is something that .1X
doesn't handle well (for instance, we have two separate
variables both named eapSuccess :-). Is this what you mean?

Best regards,
Pasi
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> As noted in the IEEE 802.1XD7.1 ballot resolution, comment 15, the current
> EAP SMs do not fully support peer-to-peer operation.

I am not completely convinced of this. It seems to me what you are asking
for here is for EAP to provide two signals indicating the success of
authentication in each direction. This is not how I read the model of
2284bis. I would argue that the use of a method providing mutual
authentication still requires EAP to provide only one answer to
the conversation. It is possible to require mutual authentication before
Success and even to guarantee that answer with protection, but I do not
see a reason for the lower layer to get an explicit "mutual
authentication" signal. If mutual authentication is required and it was
not obtained then success (the signal, not the packet) will never follow
for a properly configured peer.

> The current EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for the EAP method to
> signal to EAP and the lower layer that mutual authentication has been
> achieved.
I disagree. If you require mutual authentication then EAP Success is this
indication.

> In addition, the EAP authenticator SM does not provide a mechanism for the
> EAP layer to indicate to the lower layer that a protected result
> indication has been received from the peer, indicating that the peer has
> authenticated the authenticator.
hmm, this one is slightly more interesting, but I have no idea how the
backend would ever alert the passthrough of this. Still, I think it is
possible to say that if mutual authentication is required and not
achieved then the decision will be fail.

> Similarly, the EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for the EAP layer
> to indicate to the lower layer that a protected result indication has been
> received from the authenticator, indicating that the Authenticator has
> authenticated the peer.
I disagree with  this too. 2284bis states that the only thing which can
follow a protected success/failure is an unprotected version of the same.
The EAP Success indication is therefore sufficient to indicated succes. If
a protected indication is required the peer policy should reflect this and
the SUCCESS state will not be reached until it comes.

I disagree that peer-to-peer is not supported. I would agree that the
specific interface is not provided for two signals, but I would like to
understand better why those signals are needed. Also, a suggestion for
where these signals would go and who sets them might help me understand
this issue better.

Thanks,
nick





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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> Hmm, I'm not sure if I understand this... Is this issue about the
> case when there are two independent EAP conversations (i.e. both
> parties act as peers and authenticators), or ordinary mutual
> authentication with only a single EAP conversation?

I assume it is the latter.

> The latter case should be rather simple, since setting the
> controlled port to "authorized" when eapSuccess is set
> seems to be exactly the right thing to do (and the lower
> layer doesn't really need to know anything else).

The claim in IEEE 802.1XD7.1's comment resolution is that the lower layer
does indeed to know more.

> In the former case, both parties have both peer and
> authenticator state machines, and this is something that .1X
> doesn't handle well (for instance, we have two separate
> variables both named eapSuccess :-). Is this what you mean?

It wasn't what I meant, but it might be what the comment is referring to
:)
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2003, Nick Petroni wrote:

> > As noted in the IEEE 802.1XD7.1 ballot resolution, comment 15, the current
> > EAP SMs do not fully support peer-to-peer operation.
>
> I am not completely convinced of this. It seems to me what you are asking
> for here is for EAP to provide two signals indicating the success of
> authentication in each direction. This is not how I read the model of
> 2284bis. I would argue that the use of a method providing mutual
> authentication still requires EAP to provide only one answer to
> the conversation. It is possible to require mutual authentication before
> Success and even to guarantee that answer with protection, but I do not
> see a reason for the lower layer to get an explicit "mutual
> authentication" signal. If mutual authentication is required and it was
> not obtained then success (the signal, not the packet) will never follow
> for a properly configured peer.

That makes sense to me, because the peer would not accept the access
offered by the authenticator otherwise.  However, the response to IEEE
802.1X D7.1 comment 15 suggests that something further is needed. I'm not clear
what this is, but I'm suggesting that we need to be clear on why this is
not required (and note this explicitly in the SM document).

> > The current EAP Peer SM does not provide a mechanism for the EAP method to
> > signal to EAP and the lower layer that mutual authentication has been
> > achieved.
> I disagree. If you require mutual authentication then EAP Success is this
> indication.

The resolution of IEEE 802.1X D7.l comment 15 states explicitly that this
indication is insufficient for peer-to-peer operation, potentially because
of the issue with protected result indications below.

> > In addition, the EAP authenticator SM does not provide a mechanism for the
> > EAP layer to indicate to the lower layer that a protected result
> > indication has been received from the peer, indicating that the peer has
> > authenticated the authenticator.
> hmm, this one is slightly more interesting, but I have no idea how the
> backend would ever alert the passthrough of this. Still, I think it is
> possible to say that if mutual authentication is required and not
> achieved then the decision will be fail.

I think the issue is the following:

a. The authenticator figures out whether it wants to offer access to the
peer or not.  In the case of pass-through this is communicated in the
Access-Accept.

b. The authenticator communicates it desire to offer access to the peer.
This occurs via a protected result indication.

c. The peer figures out whether it wants to accept that access. This is
communicated to the authenticator via a protected result indication
and communicated to the peer lower layer via eapSuccess.

c. This creates a situation where the peer has full knowledge of each
side's decision (peer knows the authenticator is offering access, and that
it wants to use the access), but the authenticator may not (authenticator
knows that it wants to offer access, but in the case of pass-through
operation it may not know if the peer has accepted it).

To fix this, the authenticator SM could have a variable that says that
the peer has provided a protected result indication to it, indicating that
it will accept the offered access.  In terms of AAA, this
could result in a new attribute indicating "peer-to-peer auth achieved" or
something of that nature, so that another EAP authentication need not be
rerun in the opposite direction.

> I disagree that peer-to-peer is not supported. I would agree that the
> specific interface is not provided for two signals, but I would like to
> understand better why those signals are needed. Also, a suggestion for
> where these signals would go and who sets them might help me understand
> this issue better.

Have a look at the IEEE 802.1X D7.1 resolutions to comment 15.  They're
available here:

http://www.ieee802.org/1/files/private/x-REV-drafts/d7/802-1X-rev-d7-1-dis.pdf

Username: p8021
password: go_wildcats
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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Preface: I am not a AAA expert so correct me where I am wrong.

comments inline.

> I think the issue is the following:
>
> a. The authenticator figures out whether it wants to offer access to the
> peer or not.  In the case of pass-through this is communicated in the
> Access-Accept.
This does not come until the conversation is over, no? That is, all
protected messages will be finished before the Access-Accept, right?

> b. The authenticator communicates it desire to offer access to the peer.
> This occurs via a protected result indication.
yes, but this would be in an access-challenge, right? Protected success
cannot be the last message in the protocol since a response is required
from the peer even if it's just "ACK".

> c. The peer figures out whether it wants to accept that access. This is
> communicated to the authenticator via a protected result indication
> and communicated to the peer lower layer via eapSuccess.
these do not happen in the same step. the result will come as the final
EAP response, which will be communicated as an Access-request. The peer
will then wait for an unprotected success or timeout and go to SUCCESS.

> c. This creates a situation where the peer has full knowledge of each
> side's decision (peer knows the authenticator is offering access, and that
> it wants to use the access), but the authenticator may not (authenticator
> knows that it wants to offer access, but in the case of pass-through
> operation it may not know if the peer has accepted it).
not in the case you describe above where a protected response is given.
this will make it back before the Accept-success is ever sent (at least
according to my understanding of RADIUS/EAP interraction).

> To fix this, the authenticator SM could have a variable that says that
> the peer has provided a protected result indication to it, indicating that
> it will accept the offered access.  In terms of AAA, this
> could result in a new attribute indicating "peer-to-peer auth achieved" or
> something of that nature, so that another EAP authentication need not be
> rerun in the opposite direction.
I am not a AAA expert so I do not completely understand what you mean by
this, but it seems plausible that such an indication could be set in the
current system.

> Have a look at the IEEE 802.1X D7.1 resolutions to comment 15.  They're
> available here:

I have read it and did so before my last post, but I find the discussion
vague and unclear. Perhaps someone who participated in that comment
resolution can elighten me? I will re-read it in case I am just slow this
morning ;).

thanks,
nick

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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> > a. The authenticator figures out whether it wants to offer access to the
> > peer or not.  In the case of pass-through this is communicated in the
> > Access-Accept.
> This does not come until the conversation is over, no? That is, all
> protected messages will be finished before the Access-Accept, right?

Right.  The Access-Accept lets the pass-through know that it is to offer
access.

> > b. The authenticator communicates it desire to offer access to the peer.
> > This occurs via a protected result indication.
> yes, but this would be in an access-challenge, right? Protected success
> cannot be the last message in the protocol since a response is required
> from the peer even if it's just "ACK".

Yes. So the peer knows that it will be offered access by the
authenticator.  I say "will be" because the pass-through authenticator
does not know this yet, because it hasn't gotten the Access-Accept. And
until it gets the Access-Accept it can't actually provide the access.

> > c. The peer figures out whether it wants to accept that access. This is
> > communicated to the authenticator via a protected result indication
> > and communicated to the peer lower layer via eapSuccess.
> these do not happen in the same step. the result will come as the final
> EAP response, which will be communicated as an Access-request. The peer
> will then wait for an unprotected success or timeout and go to SUCCESS.


Yes. The peer communicates to the backend authentication that it will
accept the access, but the pass-through authenticator does not know this.
I think the point of this is that as a result, it might have to rerun an
EAP authentication in the other direction in order to be sure that it has
been granted access to the peer.

> > c. This creates a situation where the peer has full knowledge of each
> > side's decision (peer knows the authenticator is offering access, and that
> > it wants to use the access), but the authenticator may not (authenticator
> > knows that it wants to offer access, but in the case of pass-through
> > operation it may not know if the peer has accepted it).
> not in the case you describe above where a protected response is given.
> this will make it back before the Accept-success is ever sent (at least
> according to my understanding of RADIUS/EAP interraction).

This is true in non-passthrough operation.  But in pass-through, the
pass-through authenticator doesn't know that the peer is going to offer
access, because it didn't snoop on the result indication sent by the peer.
So the backend authenticator knows, but the authenticator doesn't.

> > To fix this, the authenticator SM could have a variable that says that
> > the peer has provided a protected result indication to it, indicating that
> > it will accept the offered access.  In terms of AAA, this
> > could result in a new attribute indicating "peer-to-peer auth achieved" or
> > something of that nature, so that another EAP authentication need not be
> > rerun in the opposite direction.
> I am not a AAA expert so I do not completely understand what you mean by
> this, but it seems plausible that such an indication could be set in the
> current system.

The goal is to bring the pass-through authenticator and backend
authenticator to the same level of knowledge and make it unnecessary to
rerun EAP in the other direction.

> > Have a look at the IEEE 802.1X D7.1 resolutions to comment 15.  They're
> > available here:
>
> I have read it and did so before my last post, but I find the discussion
> vague and unclear. Perhaps someone who participated in that comment
> resolution can elighten me? I will re-read it in case I am just slow this
> morning ;).

Yes, I also found it vague (I wasn't at the IEEE 802 meeting, since it
conflicted with IETF).  Perhaps someone who was there can enlighten us
both :)
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Tue Nov 25 13:07:03 2003
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From: "Joseph Salowey" <jsalowey@cisco.com>
To: "'Bernard Aboba'" <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint Verification
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This is better.  

Thanks,

Joe  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] 
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 11:57 PM
> To: Joseph Salowey
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed Resolution to Issue 200: Endpoint 
> Verification
> 
> 
> OK.  How does this look?
> 
> Add to sections 5.1, 5.2, 5.3.1, 5.3.2, 5.4, 5.5, 5.6 the 
> following security claim:
> 
> Channel Binding: No
> 
> Add the following definition to section 7.2.1:
> 
> Channel binding
> The communication within an EAP method of integrity-protected 
> channel properties such as endpoint identifiers which can be 
> compared to values communicated via out of band mechanisms 
> (such as via a AAA or lower layer protocol).
> 
> Add to Section 7.1:
> 
> [10] An attacker acting as an authenticator may provide 
> incorrect information to the EAP peer and/or server via 
> out-of-band mechanisms (such as via a AAA or lower layer 
> protocol).  This includes impersonating another 
> authenticator, or providing inconsistent information to the 
> peer and EAP server.
> 
> Add Section 7.15:
> 
> 7.15 Channel binding
> 
> It is possible for a compromised or poorly implemented EAP 
> authenticator to communicate incorrect information to the EAP 
> peer and/or server. This may enable an authenticator to 
> impersonate another authenticator or communicate incorrect 
> information via out-of-band mechanisms (such as via a AAA or 
> lower layer protocol).
> 
> Where EAP is used in pass-through mode, the EAP peer 
> typically does not verify the identity of the pass-through 
> authenticator, it only verifies that the pass-through 
> authenticator is trusted by the EAP server.  This creates a 
> potential security vulnerability.
> 
> [RFC3579] Section 4.3.7 describes how an EAP pass-through 
> authenticator acting as a AAA client can be detected if it 
> attempts to impersonate another authenticator (such by 
> sending incorrect NAS-Identifier [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address 
> [RFC2865] or NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162] attributes via the 
> AAA protocol). However, it is possible for a pass-through 
> authenticator acting as a AAA client to provide correct 
> information to the AAA server while communicating misleading 
> information to the EAP peer via a lower layer protocol.
> 
> For example, it is possible for a compromised authenticator 
> to utilize another authenticator's Called-Station-Id or 
> NAS-Identifier in communicating with the EAP peer via a lower 
> layer protocol, or for a pass-through authenticator acting as 
> a AAA client to provide an incorrect peer Calling-Station-Id 
> [RFC2865] [RFC3580] to the AAA server via the AAA protocol.
> 
> In order to address this vulnerability, EAP methods may 
> support a protected exchange of channel properties such as 
> endpoint identifiers, including (but not limited to): 
> Called-Station-Id [RFC2865][RFC3580], Calling-Station-Id 
> [RFC2865][RFC3580], NAS-Identifier, [RFC2865], NAS-IP-Address 
> [RFC2865], and NAS-IPv6-Address [RFC3162].
> 
> Using such a protected exchange, it is possible to match the 
> channel properties provided by the authenticator via 
> out-of-band mechanisms against those exchanged within the EAP 
> method.  Where discrepancies are found, these SHOULD be 
> logged; additional actions MAY also be taken, such as denying access.
> 
> Add to non-normative references:
> 
> [RFC2865] Rigney, C., Willens, S., Rubens, A. and W. Simpson, 
> "Remote Authentication Dial In User Service (RADIUS)", RFC 
> 2865, June 2000.
> 
> [RFC3162] Aboba, B., Zorn, G. and D. Mitton, "RADIUS and 
> IP6", RFC 3162, August 2001.
> 
> [RFC3580] Congdon, P., Aboba, B., Smith, A., Zorn, G. and J. 
> Roese, "IEEE 802.1X Remote Authentication Dial In User 
> Service (RADIUS) Usage Guidelines", RFC 3580, September 2003.
> 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Tue Nov 25 15:38:59 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> Yes. So the peer knows that it will be offered access by the
> authenticator.  I say "will be" because the pass-through authenticator
> does not know this yet, because it hasn't gotten the Access-Accept. And
> until it gets the Access-Accept it can't actually provide the access.
yes, but until it gets the Access-Accept it won't send the EAP Success
either so the peer won't try to have access. In this case all is still
well.

Do we agree there is no problem on the peer side? If so, let's turn to the
authenticator...

> Yes. The peer communicates to the backend authentication that it will
> accept the access, but the pass-through authenticator does not know this.
> I think the point of this is that as a result, it might have to rerun an
> EAP authentication in the other direction in order to be sure that it has
> been granted access to the peer.
It seems to me what you are saying is that even after recieving and
Accept-Accept, the passthrough does not know it is allowed to have access
even though it is allowed.

There are two possible solutions I see-
1. make Access-Accept mean that BOTH things are ok and that mutual auth
is known to have succeeded or
2. make Access-Accept strictly mean the Peer is to be given access, and
make some other AAA signal/message provide the other information.

If mutual auth is required, the server can tie the auth directly to the EAP
aaaEapSuccess signal. That is, both must be authenticated for
aaaEapSuccess to be true. This
only works for case 1 above, as the AAA layer can't separate these two if
it is only given binary input. I believe THIS is the missing variable you
describe?

I am really having trouble with the model for why the passthrough needs
this information. when using a peer and a passthrough authenticator, it's
tough for me to see the true peer-to-peer relationship we are describing
in any real-world scenario. That being said, this does not mean we
shouldn't handle the situation. My understanding of all passthrough
implemenations is that if there was to be mutual authentication, but the
peer failed to authenticate the authenticator the peer will just go away
(or try again) anyway.

Additionally, I understand the argument that we want
passthrough and standalone to have the same semantics, but I think even
in the peer and standalone statemachines it is policy that is tying
together the two authentication decisions into a single signal. The method
should be set to only succeed in the case of mutual authentication if
mutual auth is required.


> Yes, I also found it vague (I wasn't at the IEEE 802 meeting, since it
> conflicted with IETF).  Perhaps someone who was there can enlighten us
> both :)
I look forward to it :).

My current position is that I don't see why you need two answers. If you
know you are using a method with mutual authentication, then you should be
able to tie the outcome of that method to a two-way relationship.

comments welcome.

nick

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Please find below some comments on EAP SIM from Greg Rose.
Most comments also apply to EAP AKA.

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Greg Rose [mailto:ggr@qualcomm.com]
Sent: 12 November, 2003 05:16
To: Haverinen Henry (NES/Jyvaskyla)
Cc: ggr@qualcomm.com; Niemi Valtteri (NRC/Helsinki)
Subject: RE: EAP-SIM and EAP-AKA Review?


I've reviewed the EAP-SIM one. Unfortunately I'm running out of time at =
the=20
moment and probably won't be able to get to EAP-AKA, although I wouldn't =
be=20
surprised if some of the comments are common to both. Anyway, see =
attached=20
PDF document with yellow highlights. Tell me if you have any trouble =
with it.

regards,
Greg.

At 01:51 AM 11/4/2003, henry.haverinen@nokia.com wrote:

>Greg,
>
>We have revised the EAP SIM and EAP AKA documents, and the latest
>versions are available at the following URLs. We'd still
>very much appreciate your comments on the drafts, especially
>on EAP AKA that has received less review.
>
>Best regards,
>Henry
>
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-haverinen-pppext-eap-sim-12.tx=
t
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arkko-pppext-eap-aka-11.txt
>


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> Do we agree there is no problem on the peer side? If so, let's turn to the
> authenticator...

Yes, I agree with this.  Not sure about the IEEE 802.1aa folks.  Can
anyone who was there fill us in?

> It seems to me what you are saying is that even after receiving an
> Accept-Accept, the passthrough does not know it is allowed to have access
> even though it is allowed.

Yes, the pass-through knows it will provide access to the peer, but
doesn't know whether the peer will accept the access.  Note that if the
authenticator was not a pass-through, then it would know, because it would
have received the result indication from the peer.

> There are two possible solutions I see-
> 1. make Access-Accept mean that BOTH things are ok and that mutual auth
> is known to have succeeded or

I don't think we can change the meaning of Access-Accept at this point.

> 2. make Access-Accept strictly mean the Peer is to be given access, and
> make some other AAA signal/message provide the other information.

This one could work.  For example, we could add a "P2P complete" attribute
to tell the pass-through that the peer has sent a successful result
indication.

> If mutual auth is required, the server can tie the auth directly to the EAP
> aaaEapSuccess signal. That is, both must be authenticated for
> aaaEapSuccess to be true. This
> only works for case 1 above, as the AAA layer can't separate these two if
> it is only given binary input. I believe THIS is the missing variable you
> describe?

I think another variable is needed on the authenticator SM to indicate
that a result indication has been received from the peer.

> I am really having trouble with the model for why the passthrough needs
> this information. when using a peer and a passthrough authenticator, it's
> tough for me to see the true peer-to-peer relationship we are describing
> in any real-world scenario.

The scenario that IEEE 802.1af has been looking are bridges talking to one
another.  I think that the IEEE 802.11 adhoc scenario may also be
affected. The way to think about this is "can the two sides confirm that
both controlled ports are passing packets, so that another EAP
authentication will not have to be run in both directions".  If the answer
is no, then you need to do another authentication, which is wasteful.

> That being said, this does not mean we
> shouldn't handle the situation. My understanding of all passthrough
> implementations is that if there was to be mutual authentication, but
> the peer failed to authenticate the authenticator the peer will just go
> away (or try again) anyway.

Yes.

> Additionally, I understand the argument that we want
> passthrough and standalone to have the same semantics, but I think even
> in the peer and standalone statemachines it is policy that is tying
> together the two authentication decisions into a single signal. The method
> should be set to only succeed in the case of mutual authentication if
> mutual auth is required.

I think there may be subtle distinction being made between mutual auth
(where the authenticator might not know whether the peer is going to
accept the access it granted), and protected result indications, where the
authenticator would know the peer decision, absent the pass-through issues
we just talked about.

> My current position is that I don't see why you need two answers. If you
> know you are using a method with mutual authentication, then you should be
> able to tie the outcome of that method to a two-way relationship.

As mentioned above, I think it's about both sides being able to confirm
that they are willing to talk at L3, not just for the authenticator to
confirm its willingness to offer access to the peer.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 05:23:00 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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Interesting discussion! When we come to a conclusion, we
should document the result in the state machine
spec just to avoid people asking about it later.

A couple of points:

   o  Assuming 802.11i, wouldn't mutual authentication be
      required in any case, so in theory 802.11i equipment
      could assume Access-Accept = mutual authentication?

   o  But in general, I agree that if methods could provide
      information to other layers about the type of
      authentication they performed, this would be useful.

   o  If we do provide such information over an API, we
      also need new AAA attributes as Bernard pointed out.

--Jari

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 10:48:22 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> Interesting discussion! When we come to a conclusion, we
> should document the result in the state machine
> spec just to avoid people asking about it later.
>
> A couple of points:
>
>    o  Assuming 802.11i, wouldn't mutual authentication be
>       required in any case, so in theory 802.11i equipment
>       could assume Access-Accept = mutual authentication?

I think the issue may in part be that mutual auth != confirmed result
indications.

>    o  But in general, I agree that if methods could provide
>       information to other layers about the type of
>       authentication they performed, this would be useful.
>
>    o  If we do provide such information over an API, we
>       also need new AAA attributes as Bernard pointed out.

Yes, I think that may be required.
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] 
> On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:07 AM
> To: Jari Arkko
> Cc: Nick Petroni; eap@frascone.com
> Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
> 
> 
> > Interesting discussion! When we come to a conclusion, we should 
> > document the result in the state machine spec just to avoid people 
> > asking about it later.
> >
> > A couple of points:
> >
> >    o  Assuming 802.11i, wouldn't mutual authentication be
> >       required in any case, so in theory 802.11i equipment
> >       could assume Access-Accept = mutual authentication?
> 
> I think the issue may in part be that mutual auth != 
> confirmed result indications.

[Joe] Yes this seems to be the issue, but I'm still not sure what the
value is in confirmed result indicators or why it has to be done in EAP
and not the layer calling EAP.  

> 
> >    o  But in general, I agree that if methods could provide
> >       information to other layers about the type of
> >       authentication they performed, this would be useful.
> >
> >    o  If we do provide such information over an API, we
> >       also need new AAA attributes as Bernard pointed out.
> 
> Yes, I think that may be required. 

[Joe] If these attributes are not present do you deny access or is this
a local policy decision on the NAS?   Shouldn't this be centralized with
the rest of the access policy in AAA?

> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
> 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 11:53:57 2003
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> > Yes, I think that may be required.
>
> [Joe] If these attributes are not present do you deny access or is this
> a local policy decision on the NAS?   Shouldn't this be centralized with
> the rest of the access policy in AAA?

I think this is more about whether it is necessary to rerun EAP in the
other direction.  The authenticator will still provide access either way.
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 9:13 AM
> To: Joseph Salowey
> Cc: 'Jari Arkko'; 'Nick Petroni'; eap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
> 
> 
> > > Yes, I think that may be required.
> >
> > [Joe] If these attributes are not present do you deny 
> access or is this
> > a local policy decision on the NAS?   Shouldn't this be 
> centralized with
> > the rest of the access policy in AAA?
> 
> I think this is more about whether it is necessary to rerun 
> EAP in the other direction.  The authenticator will still 
> provide access either way.
> 
[Joe] OK, sorry to be playing catch up, so the possibility is that the
Peer has not had its policy satisfied so it will not open its port, but
the authenticator may not have any way to know this since it may have
considered its policy complete.  It would seem that in this case the
peer would then want to reverse roles and authenticate the previous
authenticator.  Can't this be signaled in 802.1x?

 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 12:28:58 2003
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Subject: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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Issue 204 has been filed against the state machine document, but it has
been an open question as to what effect it would have (if any) on RFC
2284bis.

After looking at the revised section 2.4 "Peer to Peer operation", the
first four paragraphs of the section are about limitations on
peer-to-peer operation, which is somewhat orthogonal to Issue 204.

The next two paragraphs seem to be about a slightly different subject --
whether an authentication is necessary in each direction, which is the
subject of Issue 204.

My suggestion is that we replace the last two paragraphs in Section 2.4,
with the following text:

"Lower layer considerations may dictate whether two EAP authentications,
(one in each direction) are required, rather than a single EAP
method supporting mutual authentication and protected result indications.
These include:

[1] Support for bi-direction session key derivation.  Lower layers such as
IEEE 802.11 only support uni-directional  derivation and transport of
transient session keys. For example, the group-key handshake defined in
[IEEE-802.11i] is uni-directional, since in IEEE 802.11 only the Access
Point (AP) sends multicast traffic. This means that in ad-hoc operation
where either peer may send multicast traffic, two uni-directional
group-key exchanges are required. Due to constraints imposed by the 4-way
unicast key handshake state machine, this also implies two 4-way handshake
and EAP method exchanges.

[2] Support for tie-breaking.  Lower layers such as IEEE 802.11 adhoc
do not support "tie breaking" wherein two hosts initiating authentication
with each other will only go forward with a single authentication. This
implies that even if 802.11 were to support a bi-directional group-key
handshake, then two authentications, one in each direction, might still
occur.

[3] Support for protected result indications.  When an EAP method
supporting mutual authentiation and protected result indication is
in use,  the EAP peer and server will typically be aware of each other's
access decision, as well as their own.  For example, the EAP server will
indicate to the peer whether the peer has successfully authenticated to
it, and the peer will indicate to the EAP server whether the server has
successfully authenticated to the peer. As a result, the EAP peer and
server can determine whether an authentication is required in the
opposite direction.  However, where the authenticator operates as a
pass-through, it will not be aware whether the peer has
accepted the access offered to it by the EAP server unless this
information is provided to it via the AAA protocol.  As a result, two
authentications, one in each direction, may still need to occur."
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 12:36:59 2003
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To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> [Joe] OK, sorry to be playing catch up, so the possibility is that the
> Peer has not had its policy satisfied so it will not open its port, but
> the authenticator may not have any way to know this since it may have
> considered its policy complete.  It would seem that in this case the
> peer would then want to reverse roles and authenticate the previous
> authenticator.  Can't this be signaled in 802.1x?

The authenticator originates EAP authentication and then it offers access
to the peer, or it doesn't.  It might like to send some packets to the
peer, in which case it is interested in whether the peer has accepted the
access it offered, but it may not know that.  If so, then it could send an
EAP-Start to the peer, to signal the peer that it would like to start an
authentication in the other direction.  So it's not a big deal, really.

The point (for RFC 2284bis at least) is just to describe the situation in
Section 2.4, Peer-to-peer operation.  I think that some changes may be
required in the EAP SM to allow the signals to be passed to the lower
layer though.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 12:45:58 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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> [3] Support for protected result indications.  When an EAP method
> supporting mutual authentiation and protected result indication is
> in use,  the EAP peer and server will typically be aware of each other's
> access decision, as well as their own.  For example, the EAP server will
> indicate to the peer whether the peer has successfully authenticated to
> it, and the peer will indicate to the EAP server whether the server has
> successfully authenticated to the peer. As a result, the EAP peer and
> server can determine whether an authentication is required in the
> opposite direction.  However, where the authenticator operates as a
> pass-through, it will not be aware whether the peer has
> accepted the access offered to it by the EAP server unless this
> information is provided to it via the AAA protocol.  As a result, two
> authentications, one in each direction, may still need to occur."

based on this text, a proposed change to the state machine doc would
(roughly) look something like this:

In Figure 5 "EAP Backend Authenticator State Machine", change the
METHOD_RESPONSE state to read

  m.process(aaaEapRespData)
  if (m.isDone()) {
     Policy.update(<...>)
     aaaEapKeyData = m.getKey()
     aaaEapPeerDecision = m.getPeerDecision()
     methodState = END
  } else
    methodState = CONTINUE

aaaEapPeerDecision would take values UNKNOWN, KNOWN_ACCEPT and
KNOWN_REJECT and be exported to the lower layer.

thoughts? any other required changes?

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 13:01:27 2003
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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 9:56 AM
> To: Joseph Salowey
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
> 
> 
> > [Joe] OK, sorry to be playing catch up, so the possibility 
> is that the 
> > Peer has not had its policy satisfied so it will not open its port, 
> > but the authenticator may not have any way to know this 
> since it may 
> > have considered its policy complete.  It would seem that in 
> this case 
> > the peer would then want to reverse roles and authenticate the 
> > previous authenticator.  Can't this be signaled in 802.1x?
> 
> The authenticator originates EAP authentication and then it 
> offers access to the peer, or it doesn't.  It might like to 
> send some packets to the peer, in which case it is interested 
> in whether the peer has accepted the access it offered, but 
> it may not know that.  

[Joe] So the protected result is not just signaling that the
authentication was successful, but also that the peer has authorized the
opening of its port. If the Peer actually wanted to do bi-drection
authenticaiton perhaps using a different EAP method then it wouldn't
send a protected result indication of succss even if the first method
succeeded?

> If so, then it could send an EAP-Start 
> to the peer, to signal the peer that it would like to start 
> an authentication in the other direction.  So it's not a big 
> deal, really.
> 
[Joe] Couldn't the peer to signal to the authenticator to start
authentication in the other direction since it is the peer that knows if
it has opened.  If it can't then this seems like a .1x problem. If it
can then I don't think it is a big deal.  


> The point (for RFC 2284bis at least) is just to describe the 
> situation in Section 2.4, Peer-to-peer operation.  I think 
> that some changes may be required in the EAP SM to allow the 
> signals to be passed to the lower layer though.

[Joe] Yes, I think we need to revisit the method interfaces in the state
machines (for issue 203 as well).


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 13:33:21 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>
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Subject: RE: [eap] Issue 204: Peer-to-peer operation
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> [Joe] So the protected result is not just signaling that the
> authentication was successful, but also that the peer has authorized the
> opening of its port. If the Peer actually wanted to do bi-drection
> authenticaiton perhaps using a different EAP method then it wouldn't
> send a protected result indication of succss even if the first method
> succeeded?

I think those are orthogonal issues.  The peer would send a protected
result indication for the initial method.  The authenticator would then
assume that the peer was happy so that it would not ask the to
authenticate to the peer (e.g. by sending an EAPOL-Start).  But the peer
could always send an EAP-Request if it wanted to do bi-drectional
authentication for some reason.

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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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> based on this text, a proposed change to the state machine doc would
> (roughly) look something like this:
>
> In Figure 5 "EAP Backend Authenticator State Machine", change the
> METHOD_RESPONSE state to read
>
>   m.process(aaaEapRespData)
>   if (m.isDone()) {
>      Policy.update(<...>)
>      aaaEapKeyData = m.getKey()
>      aaaEapPeerDecision = m.getPeerDecision()
>      methodState = END
>   } else
>     methodState = CONTINUE
>
> aaaEapPeerDecision would take values UNKNOWN, KNOWN_ACCEPT and
> KNOWN_REJECT and be exported to the lower layer.
>
> thoughts? any other required changes?

I think this is correct.  The lower layer can then use this variable to
decide whether to initiate EAP authentication in the other direction.

On the peer side, there is also a need to make a decision (as Joe noted).
However there I think that existing interfaces may be adequate because the
peer knows whether it has been granted access and is willing to accept it;
the only question is whether its policy requires an authentication in the
other direction too.  That doesn't seem like a decision that requires
additional interfaces to the lower layer.

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 14:02:14 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] [Issue 203] Comments on EAP-Peer state machine
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> 1. portEnabled
>
> portEnabled seems very .1x/PPP specific.  EAP is being used in cases
> such as IKE and PANA where this concept may a bit more abstract.
> Perhaps we can change the name of the variable and/or expand its
> definition to include other cases.
>
> Suggestion:
> Perhaps "indicates that a lower layer communcation channel has been
> established".
[npetroni] this is fine for me. the name is not really of importance to me
so I would just as soon leave it the same. If others think a name change
is necessary it's fine. I like the definition change.

> Suggestion:
> Remove variable.  We could explore this in an apppendix or a separate
> document.
[npetroni] previously disussed. I agree it should be removed.


> 3. Interface to method
>
> The interface to the method seems too complicated.
>
> First I don't think that intCheck should be a different process.
> Integrity checking is done as part of the method processing.  Also
> methods aren't required to ingore packets, some methods with ignore some
> problems and return errors on others.  I think this behavior should be
> incorporated into m.process.
[npetroni] intCheck is needed because SOMETIMES a method will decide not
to use the packet at all. in this case, intCheck is the way the method
tells the SM it will not be using that packet. Methods with other ways of
dealing with this will just not set intCheck to be true.

> On a separate but related note it seems that the method state and
> decision is very complex. I don't really see the need for the
> independent methodState and decision variables.  M.process() should
> return one of serverl possible results: IGNORE, CONTINUE, COND_SUCCESS,
> SUCCESS, FAILURE.  MethodState should be able to take on CONTINUE,
> COND_SUCCESS, SUCCESS, FAILURE.  I don't think a separate decision
> variable is necessary.
[npetroni] This is meant to show that a method really has its own state
machine and that these states are separate from the final decision. I
think it provides nice way of separating the two, but I am willing to
discuss this alternative notation.

>
> 4. Idle timer
>
> It seems that there is a problem with the idle timer.  It would be
> possible for the peer to never time out if it keeps on receiving packets
> that it discards.  This is not so good.
[npetroni] hmm, that seems like a trivial DoS, no? Send enough bad packets
to the Peer and it goes away for a while?

> 5.  rxSuccess and rxFailure
>
> Shouldn't rxSuccess and rxFailure check to see if (reqId == lastReqID)?
[npetroni] probably so. I think this should be added.



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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 14:25:26 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 196: Peer SM Issues
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> In Figure 3, it is not clear from the diagrams that SUCCESS and FAILURE
This is stylistic I think. If there is a special notation for final states
in Figure 3, there should be in all of them. I am open to other
discussion, but I think the text descibing them as final is sufficient.
Other votes?

> are terminal states; perhaps a function call is necessary to cause
> the packet to be sent.
There are no packets to send- the Peer does not respond to success or
failure.


> Suggest adding a getIdentity() call in the IDENTITY state,
> which can take into account the information that the peer
> has available, in order to determine the appropriate
> identity to put into the EAP-Response/Identity. This
> could include, for example, "hints" in the EAP-Request/Identity,
> default settings in the peer, etc.
I think this is abstracted away in buildIdentity(). We could add
information about these considerations in the function definition if the
group thinks it is necessary.

The remainder of this issue seems to be about tunnels, so I propose to
reject the issue. We can make the style changes above as other issues or
just as editiorial liberties if the group thinks they are good ideas.


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 14:37:29 2003
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From: Nick Petroni <npetroni@cs.umd.edu>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: Re: [eap] Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
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> pp. 21, Section 6
>
> It's draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf, not .ps, no?
ok, that's no problem. I guess I thought either one could be official.
just let me know which it should be.

>
> pp. 22, Figure 5
>
> respMethod has the same value if it is a NAK or an expanded NAK.
yeah, seems right.

>
> pp. 23
>
> The definition of aaaMethodTimeout should make it clear that this
> method-provided hint is not used to control the AAA timeout, only
> the value of the Session-Timeout attribute sent by AAA.
yes.

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From: "Joseph Salowey" <jsalowey@cisco.com>
To: "'Bernard Aboba'" <aboba@internaut.com>, <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] 
> On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 9:48 AM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
> 
> 
> Issue 204 has been filed against the state machine document, 
> but it has been an open question as to what effect it would 
> have (if any) on RFC 2284bis.
> 
> After looking at the revised section 2.4 "Peer to Peer 
> operation", the first four paragraphs of the section are 
> about limitations on peer-to-peer operation, which is 
> somewhat orthogonal to Issue 204.
> 
> The next two paragraphs seem to be about a slightly different 
> subject -- whether an authentication is necessary in each 
> direction, which is the subject of Issue 204.
> 
> My suggestion is that we replace the last two paragraphs in 
> Section 2.4, with the following text:
> 
> "Lower layer considerations may dictate whether two EAP 
> authentications, (one in each direction) are required, rather 
> than a single EAP method supporting mutual authentication and 
> protected result indications. These include:
> 
> [1] Support for bi-direction session key derivation.  Lower 
> layers such as IEEE 802.11 only support uni-directional  
> derivation and transport of transient session keys. For 
> example, the group-key handshake defined in [IEEE-802.11i] is 
> uni-directional, since in IEEE 802.11 only the Access Point 
> (AP) sends multicast traffic. This means that in ad-hoc 
> operation where either peer may send multicast traffic, two 
> uni-directional group-key exchanges are required. Due to 
> constraints imposed by the 4-way unicast key handshake state 
> machine, this also implies two 4-way handshake and EAP method 
> exchanges.

[Joe] Where is the use of multicast/broadcast defined in the case of an
ad-hoc network? Is it defined in 802.11i?
> 
> [2] Support for tie-breaking.  Lower layers such as IEEE 
> 802.11 adhoc do not support "tie breaking" wherein two hosts 
> initiating authentication with each other will only go 
> forward with a single authentication. This implies that even 
> if 802.11 were to support a bi-directional group-key 
> handshake, then two authentications, one in each direction, 
> might still occur.
> 
> [3] Support for protected result indications.  When an EAP 
> method supporting mutual authentiation and protected result 
> indication is in use,  the EAP peer and server will typically 
> be aware of each other's access decision, as well as their 
> own.  For example, the EAP server will indicate to the peer 
> whether the peer has successfully authenticated to it, and 
> the peer will indicate to the EAP server whether the server 
> has successfully authenticated to the peer. As a result, the 
> EAP peer and server can determine whether an authentication 
> is required in the opposite direction.  However, where the 
> authenticator operates as a pass-through, it will not be 
> aware whether the peer has accepted the access offered to it 
> by the EAP server unless this information is provided to it 
> via the AAA protocol.  As a result, two authentications, one 
> in each direction, may still need to occur." 

[Joe] Here is a suggestion. It may need a little work, but I think it is
more characteristic of the scenario. 

[3] Peer Policy is not satisfied. It is possible that the EAP Peer's
access policy was not satisfied during the EAP-Method exchange, for
example the peer may not have satisfactorily authenticated the
authenticator.  In this case the peer may wish to open another
authentication exchange with the authenticator in the reverse direction.
It is possible for an EAP mechanism to allow the Peer to return a
protected result indicator to indicate that it successfully
authenticated the authenticator.  However, where the authenticator
operates as a pass-through, it will not be aware whether the peer has
accepted the credentials offered to it by the EAP server unless this
information is provided to it via the AAA protocol.  As a result, two
authentications, one in each direction, may still need to occur.  It is
also possible for the peer to require additional authentication in the
reverse direction even if the protected result indicator from the peer
indicated success.  


> ______
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> eap@frascone.com
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 17:37:04 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
To: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>
Cc: eap@frascone.com
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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How about this?

[3] Peer Policy satisfaction. EAP methods may support
protected result indications, enabling the peer to indicate
to the EAP server that it successfully authenticated it.
However, a pass-through authenticator will not be aware that the peer
has accepted the credentials offered to it by the EAP server, unless
this information is provided to the authenticator via the AAA protocol.
As a result, two authentications, one in each direction, may still need
to occur.

It is also possible that the EAP peer's access policy was not satisfied
during the EAP method exchange. For example, the authenticator may
not have successfully authenticated to the peer, or may not have
demonstrated sufficient authorization to act in multiple roles.
For example, in EAP-TLS [RFC2716], the authenticator may have
authenticated using a valid TLS server certificate, but not using
a valid TLS client certificate. As a result, the peer may require
an additional authentication in the reverse direction, even if
the peer provided a protected result indication to the EAP server
indicating that the server had successfully authenticated to it.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 18:03:02 2003
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To: "'Bernard Aboba'" <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: <eap@frascone.com>
Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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Looks good.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:aboba@internaut.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 2:56 PM
> To: Joseph Salowey
> Cc: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: RE: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
> 
> 
> How about this?
> 
> [3] Peer Policy satisfaction. EAP methods may support
> protected result indications, enabling the peer to indicate
> to the EAP server that it successfully authenticated it. 
> However, a pass-through authenticator will not be aware that 
> the peer has accepted the credentials offered to it by the 
> EAP server, unless this information is provided to the 
> authenticator via the AAA protocol. As a result, two 
> authentications, one in each direction, may still need to occur.
> 
> It is also possible that the EAP peer's access policy was not 
> satisfied during the EAP method exchange. For example, the 
> authenticator may not have successfully authenticated to the 
> peer, or may not have demonstrated sufficient authorization 
> to act in multiple roles. For example, in EAP-TLS [RFC2716], 
> the authenticator may have authenticated using a valid TLS 
> server certificate, but not using a valid TLS client 
> certificate. As a result, the peer may require an additional 
> authentication in the reverse direction, even if the peer 
> provided a protected result indication to the EAP server 
> indicating that the server had successfully authenticated to it.
> 

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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 19:01:05 2003
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From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
To: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
Cc: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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The first paragraph of the replacement text for the end of 2.4 still reads:

  "Lower layer considerations may dictate whether two EAP authentications,
  (one in each direction) are required, rather than a single EAP
  method supporting mutual authentication and protected result indications.
  These include:"

However the list item 3 below seems to me not to really fall into the
category of "Lower layer considerations"?  Mayby the paragraph quoted above
also needs a tweak?

Wednesday 26 November 2003, Bernard wrote:
> Peer Policy satisfaction. EAP methods may support
> protected result indications, enabling the peer to indicate
> to the EAP server that it successfully authenticated it.
> However, a pass-through authenticator will not be aware that the peer
> has accepted the credentials offered to it by the EAP server, unless
> this information is provided to the authenticator via the AAA protocol.
> As a result, two authentications, one in each direction, may still need
> to occur.
> 
> It is also possible that the EAP peer's access policy was not satisfied
> during the EAP method exchange. For example, the authenticator may
> not have successfully authenticated to the peer, or may not have
> demonstrated sufficient authorization to act in multiple roles.
> For example, in EAP-TLS [RFC2716], the authenticator may have
> authenticated using a valid TLS server certificate, but not using
> a valid TLS client certificate. As a result, the peer may require
> an additional authentication in the reverse direction, even if
> the peer provided a protected result indication to the EAP server
> indicating that the server had successfully authenticated to it.
_______________________________________________
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http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap


From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 19:09:05 2003
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To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
Cc: Joseph Salowey <jsalowey@cisco.com>, eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 204 (for RFC 2284bis)
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>   "Lower layer considerations may dictate whether two EAP authentications,
>   (one in each direction) are required, rather than a single EAP
>   method supporting mutual authentication and protected result indications.
>   These include:"
>
> However the list item 3 below seems to me not to really fall into the
> category of "Lower layer considerations"?  Mayby the paragraph quoted above
> also needs a tweak?

Good catch! I've gone ahead and tweaked the resolution to address this.
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Wed Nov 26 20:58:04 2003
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From: Bernard Aboba <aboba@internaut.com>
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Subject: [eap] RFC 2284bis-07
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IETF WG last call has now completed on RFC 2284bis.  The -07 version of
the document, (incorporating resolutions to all submitted issues) is
available here, prior to showing up on the IETF archive next week:

http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-07.txt

Many thanks to Henrik Levkowetz for his excellent (and expeditious!)
editorial work on -07.
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Subject: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 196: Peer SM Issues
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Hi,

Here's my proposal for resolving issue 196:

- Add "processIdentity(eapReqData)" to IDENTITY state (as first
  line) to show that the Identity Request may contain something=20
  that needs to be processed. It seems that NOTIFICATION state
  needs something similar ("processNotify(eapReqData)").
  We also need to describe these procedures in Section 4.4:

  processIdentity(): Process the contents of Identity Request.

  processNotify(): Process the contents of Notification Request
  (for instance, display it to the user or log it).

- If Issue 198 removes the EapTunnelled variable, most of=20
  the points below are solved.

- No change for first point (in IEEE notation, terminal states
  are identified by having no outgoing transitions; and the=20
  peer doesn't send any packets at this point).

Best regards,
Pasi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com=20
> [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of
> ext Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:36 AM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] Issue 196: Peer SM Issues
>=20
>=20
> Issue 196: Peer SM Issues
> Submitter name: Ashwin Palekar
> Submitter email address: ashwinp@microsoft.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 10, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 4
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
>=20
> In Figure 3, it is not clear from the diagrams that SUCCESS
> and FAILURE are terminal states; perhaps a function call is
> necessary to cause the packet to be sent.
>
> EapTunnelled should probably be a function call rather than
> a variable, so that there is no confusion that it is set
> when the tunnelled method is selected and applies to either
> cleartext or tunnelled packets.
>=20
> The EapTunnelled variable does not describe the behavior
> of current tunneled methods such as PEAP. For example
> the state IDENTITY is reached from the RECEIVED state
> if (selectedMethod =3D=3D NONE || EapTunnelled). However
> inside PEAP, an Identity can't be sent when a method
> has been selected and isn't complete.
>=20
> Similarly, the transition from RECEIVED to GET_METHOD
> seems to occur on EapTunnell =3D=3D TRUE even if a method
> has previously been selected and is in progress. This seems=20
> wrong.
>
> Suggest adding a getIdentity() call in the IDENTITY state,
> which can take into account the information that the peer
> has available, in order to determine the appropriate
> identity to put into the EAP-Response/Identity. This
> could include, for example, "hints" in the EAP-Request/Identity,
> default settings in the peer, etc.
>
> The state machine doesn't appear to suppport sequences
> of authentication methods within tunnels.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Thu Nov 27 04:51:59 2003
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Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
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Subject: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
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Hi,

Here's my proposal for issue 195:

- Change .ps to .pdf everywhere.

- Section 4.3.1 already says the EAP type can be an expanded type,
  and that if it's an expanded type, it also contains "254"
  (that's why the variable type is "EAP Type" and not "integer").=20
  So we can already tell Legacy and Expanded Naks apart...

- In Section 7.1.1, change

  "aaaMethodTimeout (integer): Method-provided hint for suitable
  retransmission timeout, or NONE."=20

  to
  =20
  "aaaMethodTimeout (integer): Method-provided hint for suitable
  retransmission timeout, or NONE (note that this hint is for=20
  the EAP retransmissions done by the passthrough authenticator,
  not retransmissions of AAA packets)." =20


Best regards,
Pasi


> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com=20
> [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of
> ext Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 12:37 AM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
>=20
>=20
> Issue 195: Backend Authenticator SM review
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: Multiple
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
>=20
> pp. 21, Section 6
>=20
> It's draft-ietf-eap-statemachine-01.pdf, not .ps, no?
>=20
> pp. 22, Figure 5
>=20
> respMethod has the same value if it is a NAK or an expanded NAK.
>=20
> pp. 23
>=20
> The definition of aaaMethodTimeout should make it clear that this
> method-provided hint is not used to control the AAA timeout, only
> the value of the Session-Timeout attribute sent by AAA.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> eap mailing list
> eap@frascone.com
> http://mail.frascone.com/mailman/listinfo/eap
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Thu Nov 27 16:49:01 2003
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The ADs have requested that a summary of the situation of each
WG be posted after each meeting.

The summary should include information about what decisions were
taken in the meeting, what the action items exist, whether the WG
milestones are up-to-date, if there's a need to update the charter,
and so on.

So this is the summary as Bernard and I see it. Please note your
action items, and if you find something missing or wrong, let us
know.

--Jari

EAP WG Summary, IETF-58

EVENTS

  o  EAP Base Specification (2284bis) is in IETF
     Last Call ending on Nov 26 (Note: It has now ended.
     The -07 version of the document, incorporating
     resolutions to all submitted issues, is available
     here, prior to showing up on the IETF archive next week:
     http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/draft-ietf-eap-rfc2284bis-07.txt)

  o  EAP State Machine document in in WG Last Call ending
     on Nov 19. (Note: it has now ended, 8 issues were
     raised: 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, and 203.
     For details, see: http://www.drizzle.com/~aboba/EAP/eapissues.html
     The issues were substantitive enough that once they
     are resolved and an -02 document is published, we will
     go through EAP WG last call again.)

ONGOING WORK

  o  EAP Keying Framework (draft-ietf-eap-keying-01.txt) is
     being worked on. A number of open issues exist against
     the document.

  o  Several method definitions are being worked on by individual
     contributors. These documents have been held up in queue during
     the 2284bis work. The documents have been briefly discussed in
     EAP WG, but are for the most part intended as Individual
     submissions outside the WG, once the 2284bis IANA rules are
     in effect.

DECISIONS

  o  The EAP WG will look at the network
     selection problem.

  o  Merge the contents of EMSK related issues from
     draft-salowey-eap-key-deriv-02.txt into
     the EAP Keying Framework draft.

  o  ADs support the current 2284bis IANA rules i.e.
     that EAP codepoints should be allocated on the basis
     of expert review.

INPUT TO THE WG

  o  Stephen Hayes, 3GPP, told the WG that 3GPP's wishes
     for EAP include currently the base specifications, EAP-AKA,
     EAP-SIM, and some solution for network selection. There
     are no known other wishes.

  o  IEEE's desires for new generally applicable EAP methods,
     as documented in their earlier liaison statements, are
     still in effect.

ACTION ITEMS

  o  Initiate a mailing list discussion to define
     the goals and constraints for network selection (Jari
     Arkko, Nov 30, 2003)

  o  Produce solution proposal(s) for the network
     selection (Farid & others, Jan 2004)

  o  Define which parts of IKEv2 can be used in EAP IKEv2
     method (draft-tschofenig-eap-ikev2-02.txt). Possibly
     e.g. address configuration makes no sense within EAP.
     (Dirk Kroeselberg, Dec 30, 2003)

  o  Review and hopefully approve the 2284bis document
     (IESG, Dec 15, 2003)

  o  Correct the issues raised in the WG last call
     on the EAP State Machine document, and issue a
     new draft. (Pasi Eronen and Nick Petroni, Dec 5)

  o  Issue a new WG Last Call on the EAP State Machine
     document. (Chairs, Dec 10)

  o  Propose resolutions to the open issues in the
     EAP Keying Framework document. (Keying Design
     Team members, Dec 20)

  o  Text suggestion for the additional EMSK-related
     content for EAP Keying Framework Draft (Joe Salowey,
     Dec 15, 2003)

  o  Issue a WG Last Call on the EAP Keying Framework
     document (Chairs, Jan 20)

  o  Charter update (Chairs and ADs, Dec 30)

CHARTER MILESTONES

  o The keying problem document milestone needs to be changed:
    to say 'Feb 04' instead of the current 'Jun 03'. Does the
    WG feel that Feb 04 is realistic?

CHARTER REVIEW

  o We expect that charter items 1-4 and 6-7 are going to be approved
    soon in the EAP Base Specification (2284bis). And item 5 is going
    to be approved relatively soon after that in the EAP State Machine
    specification. This leaves just the keying issues on the charter,
    as the rest should be removed as we move on.

  o It would be useful to add the EAP Binding Issues to the charter
    as well under its own item. It is expected that this work can
    complete in early 2004, though the lack of reviewers has been
    an issue.

  o In addition, the WG wishes network selection issues to be studied.
    A new charter item would be needed for that.

  o A number of methods have been proposed, but most of the authors
    desire an Individual submission route rather than a WG item and
    a Standards Track path. It is expected that future EAP methods
    and their authors are interested in Standards Track and WG charter
    items, but the charter can be changed later when this need arises.


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 28 06:11:00 2003
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Thread-Topic: [eap] Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator SM review
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Hi,

Here's my proposal for issue 194:

- Move prototype of m.getTimeout as proposed.

The other points don't IMHO need any changes:

- The packet is handed over using variables (eapReq/eapReqData),
  so no function calls are needed.

- As I mentioned in issue 195, respMethod is not a plain=20
  integer, so the authenticator can already tell them apart.

Best regards,
Pasi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eap-admin@frascone.com=20
> [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com]On Behalf Of
> ext Bernard Aboba
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 2:32 PM
> To: eap@frascone.com
> Subject: [eap] Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator SM review
>=20
>=20
> Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator SM review
> Submitter name: Bernard Aboba
> Submitter email address: aboba@internaut.com
> Date first submitted: Nov 8, 2003
> Reference:
> Document: SM-01
> Comment type: T
> Priority: S
> Section: 5, 5.1
> Rationale/Explanation of issue:
> pp. 17, page 52
>=20
> m.getTimeout prototype should be after the paragraph
> explaining what m.buildReq does, not before.
>=20
> pp. 15, Figure 4
>=20
> Shouldn't there be a function in SEND_REQUEST state
> to actually hand the packet over to the lower layer?
>=20
> The Type code for NAK and EXPANDED_NAK
> are the same, so that the definition of
> respMethod should probably be modified.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> eap@frascone.com
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Subject: Re: [eap] Proposed resolution of Issue 194: Standalone Authenticator
 SM review
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Pasi.Eronen@nokia.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Here's my proposal for issue 194:
> 
> - Move prototype of m.getTimeout as proposed.
> 
> The other points don't IMHO need any changes:
> 
> - The packet is handed over using variables (eapReq/eapReqData),
>   so no function calls are needed.
> 
> - As I mentioned in issue 195, respMethod is not a plain 
>   integer, so the authenticator can already tell them apart.


Agreed.

--Jari


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 28 12:12:04 2003
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Subject: [eap] network discovery & selection: problem definition
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Folks,

In IETF-58 we discussed network discovery and selection issues,
and the straw poll indicated that the WG wants to work on this.

I'd like initiate a discussion on the problem definition
for this work before actually adopting it as something that
the EAP WG intends to standardize. As a result of the discussion,
we should know what the issue is, what functions are required, and
what constraints should be placed on a potential solution.

Here is the plan for the discussion:

  o  All input should be received by December 15. The goal
     is to have also a common understanding of the problem
     by then.

  o  Lets keep the actual solution discussion separate. In
     other words, lets not talk about the pros and cons of
     different approaches, or where this functionality should
     be placed in terms of the network or the protocol stack.

  o  The results of the discussion will be summarized by
     the chairs. The need for documentation in the form
     of a draft will be determined during the process.

  o  Next steps after this discussion has been concluded
     include another discussion & possible drafts in the
     solution space. At that time we also need to make
     a decision whether the work should stay in the EAP WG
     or be moved elsewhere.

The following is my first cut at the problem definition.
Comments appreciated -- I'd be happy if you can shoot my
definition down. I have included a few questions within
the definition -- if you have answers I'm sure the group
would like to hear them.

The primary network discovery and selection issue
is routing within the AAA infrastructure, giving
access to the user from the right home AAA and via
the right AAA proxies. Currently, we have the NAI [RFC2486]
functionality. NAIs allow users to specify their
domain so that the AAA requests can be routed to the
right home AAA servers. However, this does not provide
support for the following:

   o  Ability of the client to know which of his multiple
      home networks are available from a given access?
      Can I get to jari.arkko@ericsson.com, or only to
      jarkko@piuha.net?

   o  Ability of the AAA requests to be routed correctly
      where there is no complete, global AAA routing table.

      Deployed AAA mechanisms use an essentially
      statically configured local routing tables,
      there is no e.g. link state routing protocols
      for AAA.

      Such local mechanisms are sufficient when there
      limited amout of branching in the AAA network.
      For instance, there is no need for a global
      routing table if all your clients are either
      locally authenticated or served by one other entity
      (such as a global ISP, teleoperator, or a roaming
      consortium).

      However, if the access network supports two different
      intermediaries, it becomes necessary to figure out
      which intermediary handles the domain given in a NAI.

      Question: what is the expected number of intermediaries
      per one network hop? Can you cite current numbers from
      existing networks, or projections of future network
      topologies?

      Question: Is it necessary to support multiple levels
      of selection, e.g. go first to intermediary 1, then
      to intermediary 2, etc?

   o  For commercial reasons, intermediaries want
      to participate the AAA transaction.

      Question: Is there a need for someone else than
      the access network to control the routing to go
      via a special intermediary? This is not very
      clear to me.

   o  For the purposes of choosing an intermediary
      with specific properties, users may wish to
      control network selection, or at least wish
      to be aware of the results. For instance,
      I can get to @ericsson.com either via piuha.net
      or commercialoperator.net, but since I want to
      go via piuha.net since it is free for me.

      Question: what are the security requirements for
      this? This is bordering on solution space, but as
      far as I know, none of the proposed mechanisms
      can support secure advertisements or secure
      selection indications. Is this acceptable?

      Question: what kind of information needs to be
      presented in protocols vs. provisioned in the
      clients vs. simply told to the user off-line?
      It seems that it would be possible to provide
      network name over protocols, but a standardized
      format for offered CoS of QoS would probably
      not be possible.

An interesting twist in the AAA routing problem
is that all the above has to work for requests, responses,
as well as server-initiated messages.

The network discovery and selection problem is closely
related to the problem of access point discovery and
selection in wireless networks. The two problems coincide
when each access point offers exactly one network over
one AAA route. However, the network discovery and selection
problem may exist even where there is just one access
point to attach to, if it offers multiple networks
or multiple routes to these networks.

During the discussion of solutions for these problems,
it has become apparent that there are some additional
constraints that may have to be placed on solutions.
Some of the possible constraints are listed below:

   o  Solution can be adopted for the whole network
      without requiring changes to the largest base
      of installed devices -- access points and
      clients.

   o  Allow interoperability with clients, access networks,
      AAA proxies, and AAA servers that have not been
      modified to support network discovery and selection.

   o  Works on all AAA protocols.

   o  Does not prevent the introduction of new AAA or
      access network features, such as link-state AAA
      routing protocols (pretty far fetched) or
      fast handoffs.

   o  Does not consume a significant amount of
      resources, such as bandwidth or network
      attachment time.

   o  Does not cause a problem with limited packet
      sizes of current protocols.

Further discussion can be found from
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-adrangi-eap-network-discovery-and-selection-00.txt
(including some solution space issues too).

--Jari


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An additional area, maybe out of scope:
    how do I know that these intermediaries are legitimate, vs MITM?

i.e. how do I avoid being tricked into selecting the wrong network?
- -or- do I believe anything I've discovered?

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@xelerance.com      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Fri Nov 28 17:31:01 2003
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Michael Richardson wrote:

> An additional area, maybe out of scope:
>     how do I know that these intermediaries are legitimate, vs MITM?

I suppose they still have to be legitimate AAA proxies.
That is, an access network should not send your request to
an unknown intermediary. If it has a business relationship
with three intermediaries int1.com, int2.com, and int3.com,
it will route your request through one of them, even if you
tried to request routing through mitm.org.

Its good that you brought this up! This is a requirement.
And if we don't write it down, an implementation might
actually forget to check this.

An additional issue is that even if the intermediaries
are legitimate, they could be switched. For instance,
an access network could advertise that it has a deal
with elcheapointermediary.net, and then switch the user's
selection to pricey.com instead. To make this relevant,
the pricing would have to be based on the intermediary.
Furthermore, even if were to secure the selection, we
would be unable to guarantee that the QoS or other
properties claimed by the network were indeed provided.
This leads me to think that at the moment, the advertisements
and selections cannot be more than hints, and everyone should
be made aware of that. Typically, non-protocol means
are used to detect problems like that. [Solution space:
Independent of the network selection issue, some of
us have talked about ways to authenticate claims made
by access points and service selections picked by the
client. It looks like we could do it as a backwards
compatible extension of popular EAP methods such as
EAP-TLS or EAP-SIM. I would rather design a general
feature for such protection rather than somethign
specific for network selection.]

--Jari

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>>>>> "Jari" == Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> writes:
    Jari> Michael Richardson wrote:

    >> An additional area, maybe out of scope:
    >> how do I know that these intermediaries are legitimate, vs MITM?

    Jari> I suppose they still have to be legitimate AAA proxies.
    Jari> That is, an access network should not send your request to
    Jari> an unknown intermediary. If it has a business relationship
    Jari> with three intermediaries int1.com, int2.com, and int3.com,
    Jari> it will route your request through one of them, even if you
    Jari> tried to request routing through mitm.org.

  It is more immediate than that.

  Let's assume that there are two competing hotspots, physically adjacent
to each other. The signal is available in both locations. Both are using
NAT. 

  Call the two operators DeltaCoffee and GammaCoffee. They are using ESSID
"delta" and "gamma". Both make deals with arkohotspotproxy.com, the most
popular clearing house for EAP-AKA based payments.

  However, GammaCoffee has found a way to make money without spending much.
  They set their ESSID to "delta", and respond to EAP.

  As a supplicant, one could get a EAP Request from either one. Let's say
that I get one from GammaCoffee's AP. It takes my request, goes back on the
wireless, authenticates against arkohotspotproxy.com using radius. Yes,
passing the packets to DeltaCoffee's AP, to which it has already
authenticated *itself* with.

  The supplicant and authenticator do their thing, and then the supplicant
gets an IP address from GammaCoffee's AP. supplicant's packets are NAT'ed by
Gamma, and sent to Delta (who NATs them again).

  The result:
      Gamma gets a revenue stream from arkohotspotproxy.com
      Delta pays for the bandwidth

  If the charges are based upon per-byte, then maybe Gamma has to pay Delta
as much as it takes in. If they are based upon time, then Gamma wins. 
  (Best is if Gamma manages to steal a username/password along the way,
from some user that is willing to do username/password instead of something
that is secure)

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@xelerance.com      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [


  
  
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MxKKWmxvnDKwCZL35AEH7eIxZT+y4hgKPas43+HA77eIudbQcTiu30mXhq2pfsCl
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sun Nov 30 05:07:01 2003
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Subject: Re: [eap] network discovery & selection: problem definition
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Michael Richardson wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>"Jari" == Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> writes:
> 
>     Jari> Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
>     >> An additional area, maybe out of scope:
>     >> how do I know that these intermediaries are legitimate, vs MITM?
> 
>     Jari> I suppose they still have to be legitimate AAA proxies.
>     Jari> That is, an access network should not send your request to
>     Jari> an unknown intermediary. If it has a business relationship
>     Jari> with three intermediaries int1.com, int2.com, and int3.com,
>     Jari> it will route your request through one of them, even if you
>     Jari> tried to request routing through mitm.org.
> 
>   It is more immediate than that.

Ok, reading on...

>   Let's assume that there are two competing hotspots, physically adjacent
> to each other. The signal is available in both locations. Both are using
> NAT. 
> 
>   Call the two operators DeltaCoffee and GammaCoffee. They are using ESSID
> "delta" and "gamma". Both make deals with arkohotspotproxy.com, the most
> popular clearing house for EAP-AKA based payments.
> 
>   However, GammaCoffee has found a way to make money without spending much.
>   They set their ESSID to "delta", and respond to EAP.

This could happen, yes.

>   As a supplicant, one could get a EAP Request from either one. Let's say
> that I get one from GammaCoffee's AP. It takes my request, goes back on the
> wireless, authenticates against arkohotspotproxy.com using radius. Yes,
> passing the packets to DeltaCoffee's AP, to which it has already
> authenticated *itself* with.

Are you thinking that the GammaCoffee's AP simply has its own userid for
access to DeltaCoffee, or some sort of a mitm authentication attack?
I am assuming the former, because I do not see the mitm authentication
attack here. Only one of the access points gets the session keys from
the home AAA. The other AP would not, and hence one of the AP could not
complete the 4-way handshake or send/receive packets.

>   The supplicant and authenticator do their thing, and then the supplicant
> gets an IP address from GammaCoffee's AP. supplicant's packets are NAT'ed by
> Gamma, and sent to Delta (who NATs them again).
> 
>   The result:
>       Gamma gets a revenue stream from arkohotspotproxy.com
>       Delta pays for the bandwidth
> 
>   If the charges are based upon per-byte, then maybe Gamma has to pay Delta
> as much as it takes in. If they are based upon time, then Gamma wins. 
>   (Best is if Gamma manages to steal a username/password along the way,
> from some user that is willing to do username/password instead of something
> that is secure)

I think I see your attack (if my assumption above was correct). Its an
interesting attack, though I'm not sure how specific it is to network selection
or even to authentication mechanisms such as EAP. Here's why: the current
network access mechanisms enable us to have authentication, and link layer
protection. They do not, however, guarantee anything about the delivery of
the actual payload packets. In particular, there is no guarantee that the
payload packets are delivered through a right route, or NATed only up to
some specific number of times.

We could call this the "payload route binding problem". In this
problem, authentication and l2 support do not guarantee that
the packets are actually routed through the path that appears to have
been offered. Basically, if I have a flat fee account *and* a deal with
a clearing house, I can offer access to anyone with a per-byte account,
NAT their packets, and send the traffic forward on my account, and get
a lot of money. The local ISP would not be any wiser, as I could tunnel
my AAA packets through him encrypted. The user would not be any wiser
either, because there's nothing in 802.11i or EAP that binds the SSID
to the authentication. And even if there were, the user wouldn't care
about the SSID enough to look at it. You would probably be breaking
the contract with your provider, often they have just-one-machine
clauses. But it would be hard for them to detect this.

In conclusion this looks like an interesting attack. It appears
to exist without any network selection functionality, so its a
general issue. What would you like to do with this issue - solve
or document it? I am not sure if we talk about something like this
already in the keying document. Or maybe we should go into business
together and start selling software that does this on the background
on everyone's PC ;-)

--Jari

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Subject: RE: [eap] network discovery & selection: problem definition 
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From: "Adrangi, Farid" <farid.adrangi@intel.com>
To: "Michael Richardson" <mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca>, <eap@frascone.com>
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Hi Michael,
Please see my reply inline (marked by Farid>).
BR,
Farid


-----Original Message-----
From: eap-admin@frascone.com [mailto:eap-admin@frascone.com] On Behalf
Of Michael Richardson
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 3:35 PM
To: eap@frascone.com
Subject: Re: [eap] network discovery & selection: problem definition=20

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


>>>>> "Jari" =3D=3D Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> writes:
    Jari> Michael Richardson wrote:

    >> An additional area, maybe out of scope:
    >> how do I know that these intermediaries are legitimate, vs MITM?

    Jari> I suppose they still have to be legitimate AAA proxies.
    Jari> That is, an access network should not send your request to
    Jari> an unknown intermediary. If it has a business relationship
    Jari> with three intermediaries int1.com, int2.com, and int3.com,
    Jari> it will route your request through one of them, even if you
    Jari> tried to request routing through mitm.org.

  It is more immediate than that.

  Let's assume that there are two competing hotspots, physically
adjacent
to each other. The signal is available in both locations. Both are using
NAT.=20

  Call the two operators DeltaCoffee and GammaCoffee. They are using
ESSID
"delta" and "gamma". Both make deals with arkohotspotproxy.com, the most
popular clearing house for EAP-AKA based payments.


  However, GammaCoffee has found a way to make money without spending
much.
  They set their ESSID to "delta", and respond to EAP.

Farid> Is this a legal thing to do?  That is, having two overlapping
hotspots whose ESSID values are the same.  It seems that this will
create other problems ...!  But, let's go on with this assumption.

  As a supplicant, one could get a EAP Request from either one. Let's
say
that I get one from GammaCoffee's AP. It takes my request, goes back on
the
wireless, authenticates against arkohotspotproxy.com using radius.

Farid> Okay - here is my interpretation of the above paragraph:  the
GammaCoffee's AP takes the EAP-Response from the supplicant and puts
into an Access-Request and sends it arkohoptsportproxy.com (assuming
that there is a business relationship between the two).  After a few EAP
and EAP-over-RADIUS exchanges, the supplicant authenticates itself to
its home service network through GammaCoffee's AP and the
arkohotsportproxy.com (the intermediary proxy).

 Yes,
passing the packets to DeltaCoffee's AP, to which it has already
authenticated *itself* with.

Farid> Here you losing me!  Are we still talking about authentication
packets here?  Who is passing the packets to DeltaCoffee's AP?

  The supplicant and authenticator do their thing, and then the
supplicant
gets an IP address from GammaCoffee's AP. supplicant's packets are
NAT'ed by
Gamma, and sent to Delta (who NATs them again).

Farid> How do supplicant's IP packets get sent to Delta hotspot?  If it
double NATed, I assume that the packets are forwarded by some Access
Router within Gamma to Delta.  That means that there has to be some
business agreement between Gamma and Delta, otherwise Delta can simply
drop the packets. =20

  The result:
      Gamma gets a revenue stream from arkohotspotproxy.com
      Delta pays for the bandwidth


  If the charges are based upon per-byte, then maybe Gamma has to pay
Delta
as much as it takes in. If they are based upon time, then Gamma wins.=20
  (Best is if Gamma manages to steal a username/password along the way,
from some user that is willing to do username/password instead of
something
that is secure)

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |
firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net
architect[
] mcr@xelerance.com      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device
driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security
guy"); [


 =20
 =20
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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sun Nov 30 10:42:00 2003
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Subject: [eap] Re: network discovery & selection: problem definition
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I'd suggest that there are three somewhat orthogonal problems being discussed
under the rubric of "network selection".

First, there is the problem of "Network discovery".  This is the problem of
discovering access networks available in the vicinity, and the points of
presence (POPs) associated with those networks.

Second, there is the problem of "Identifier selection".  This is the problem
of selecting which identity (and credentials) to use to authenticate to
a given POP.

Thirdly, there is the problem of "Access routing" which involves figuring
out how to route the authentication conversation originating from the
selected identity back to the home realm.

Network Discovery
-----------------
Traditionally, the problem of discovering available networks has been
handled out-of-band of EAP.

RFC 2194 describes the pre-provisioning of dialup roaming clients, which
typically included a list of potential phone numbers, updated by the
provider(s) with which the client had a contractual relationship.
RFC 3017 describes the IETF Proposed Standard for the Roaming Access XML
DTD.  This covers not only the attributes of the Points of Presence (POPs)
and Internet Service Providers (ISPs), but also hints on the appropriate
NAI to be used with a particular POP.

In IEEE 802.11 WLANs, the Beacon/Probe Request/Response mechanism provides
a way for Stations to discover Access Points (APs), as well as the
capabilities of those APs.  Among the Information Elements (IEs) included
within the Beacon and Probe Response is the SSID, a non-unique identifier of
the network to which an Access Point is attached.  By combining network
identification along with capabilities discovery, the Beacon/Probe facility
provides the information required for both network discovery and roaming
decisions within a single mechanism.

As noted in [Velayos], the Beacon mechanism does not scale well;
with a Beacon interval of 100ms, and 10 APs in the vicinity, approximately
32 percent of an 802.11b AP's capacity is used for beacon transmission.
In addition, since Beacon/Probe Response frames are sent by each AP over the
wireless medium,  stations can only discover APs within range, which implies
substantial coverage overlap for roaming to occur without interruption.

A number of enhancements have been proposed to the Beacon/Probe Response
mechanism in order to improve scalability and roaming performance.  These
include allowing APs to announce capabilities of neighbor APs as well as their
own, as proposed in IEEE 802.11k; propagation of discovery information over
IP, as handled in the CARD protocol developed within the IETF SEAMOBY WG, etc.

Typically scalability enhancement mechanisms attempt to get around Beacon/Probe
Response restrictions by sending advertisements at the higher rates which are
enabled one the station has associated with an AP.  Since these mechanisms
run over IP, they can utilize IP facilities such as fragmentation, which the
Beacon/Probe Response mechanism cannot.

Identity selection
------------------
As networks proliferate, it becomes more and more likely that a given EAP
peer may have multiple identities and credential sets, available for use
in different situations.  For example, the EAP peer may have an account with
one or more Public WLAN providers;  a corporate WLAN;  one or more wireless
WAN providers. As a result, the EAP peer has to decide which credential set
to use when presented with a given set of potential EAP authenticators.

Traditionally, hints useful in identity selection have also been provided
out-of-band.  For example, via the IETF Proposed Standard Roaming Access
XML DTD, a client can select between potential POPs, and then based on
information provided in the DTD, determine the appropriate NAI to use
with the selected POP.

However, it is also possible for hints to be embedded within credentials.
In [Housley], usage hints are provided within certificates used for
wireless authentication.  This involves extending the certificate to include
the SSIDs with which the certificate can be used.


Access routing
--------------
Once the identity has been selected, it is necessary for the authentication
conversation to be routed back to the home realm.  Within the IETF ROAMOPS
WG, a number of approaches were considered for this, including source routing
techniques based on the NAI [RFC2486], and techniques relying on the AAA
infrastructure.  Given the relative simplicity of the roaming implementations
described in RFC 2194,  static routing mechanisms appeared adequate for the
task and it was not deemed necessary to develop dynamic routing
protocols.

As noted in RFC 2607, RADIUS proxies are deployed not only for routing purposes,
but also to mask a number of inadequacies in the RADIUS protocol design, such
as the lack of standarized retransmission behavior and the need for shared secret
provisioning.

By removing many of the protocol inadequacies, introducing new AAA agent
types such as Redirects, providing support for certificate-based authentication
as well as inter and intra-domain service discovery, Diameter allows a NAS
to directly open a Diameter connection to the home realm without having to
utilize a network of proxies.

This is somewhat analagous to the evolution of email delivery.  Prior to the
widespread proliferation of the Internet, it was necessary to gateway between
SMTP-based mail systems and alternative delivery technologies, such as UUCP
and FidoNet, and email-address based source-routing was used to handle this.
However, as mail could increasingly be delivered directly, the use of source
routing disappeared.

As with the selection of certificates by stations, a Diameter client wishing
to authenticate with a Diameter server may have a choice of available certificates,
and therefore it may need to choose between them.

References
----------

[Housley] Housley, R., and T. Moore, "Certificate Extensions and Attributes
Supporting Authentication in PPP and Wireless LAN", draft-ietf-pkix-wlan-extns-04.txt,
Internet Draft (work in progress), June 2003.

[Mishra] Mishra, A., Shin, M. and W. Arbaugh, "An empirical analysis
of the IEEE 802.11 MAC layer handoff process", University of Maryland
Technical Report, UMIACS-TR-2002-75, 2002.

[Velayos] Velayos, H. and G. Karlsson, "Techniques to Reduce IEEE 802.11b
MAC Layer Handover Time", Laboratory for Communication Networks, KTH,
Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden, TRITA-IMIT-LCN R 03:02


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From eap-admin@frascone.com  Sun Nov 30 11:20:59 2003
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It seems to me that the "false SSID" attack brought up by Michael
Richardson as part of the "network selection" thread is another variation
on the "channel binding" attack that is discussed in Issue 200.  That is,
the AP advertises an SSID to the user, but presumably does not include
this SSID in the Called-Station-Id sent to the AAA server.

Can someone take a look at the proposed resolution of Issue 200 and
determine whether the issue is being adequately handled?  My understanding
is that including an exchange of SSIDs within the EAP method would allow
the station and AAA server to determine that the AP had launched this
attack.
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Subject: Re: [eap] network discovery & selection: problem definition 
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>>>>> "Jari" == Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> writes:
    Jari> Are you thinking that the GammaCoffee's AP simply has its own
    Jari> userid for 
    Jari> access to DeltaCoffee, or some sort of a mitm authentication attack?

  Either way.

  If DeltaCoffee regularly uses username/password to get online (such as,
for instance, for regular customers, or for the "staff" machines), then it is
trivial for GammaCoffee to steal such an ID.
  But, we agree that those methods are inheirently insecure.

    Jari> I think I see your attack (if my assumption above was correct). Its
    Jari> an 
    Jari> interesting attack, though I'm not sure how specific it is to
    Jari> network selection 

  If the customer can figure out which AP belongs to DeltaCoffee and which
ones does not, then they customer can input this to their selection
algorithm.

  Btw, this was essentially the situation that we had at the last IETF,
except that the "rogue APs" weren't so cooperative as to route our packets.

    Jari> network access mechanisms enable us to have authentication, and
    Jari> link layer 
    Jari> protection. They do not, however, guarantee anything about the
    Jari> delivery of 
    Jari> the actual payload packets. In particular, there is no guarantee
    Jari> that the 
  
  Right, so this opens up the whole system up to disputes that one was
charged for service that was not received. You included QoS and pricing
in your "selection" algorithm.
  (No service is a QoS)

    Jari> We could call this the "payload route binding problem". In this
    Jari> problem, authentication and l2 support do not guarantee that
    Jari> the packets are actually routed through the path that appears to have
    Jari> been offered. Basically, if I have a flat fee account *and* a deal 

  If I took a shared key from the EAP EMSK somewhere, and used that to
authenticate the DHCP server (3118), it might have a serious positive
benefit. 

  In v6 land, we could use the channel created by EAP to provide the
certificates for the SEND secured RA. Both ways, that means that we are 
sure we are speaking at layer 3 to the services that we authenticated at
layer two.
  
    Jari> a lot of money. The local ISP would not be any wiser, as I could
    Jari> tunnel 
    Jari> my AAA packets through him encrypted. The user would not be any wiser
    Jari> either, because there's nothing in 802.11i or EAP that binds the SSID
    Jari> to the authentication. And even if there were, the user wouldn't care
    Jari> about the SSID enough to look at it. You would probably be breaking
    Jari> the contract with your provider, often they have just-one-machine
    Jari> clauses. But it would be hard for them to detect this.

  The one-machine clause has effectively died around here, with pretty much
all the ISPs selling "network sharing" NAT boxes themselves.

    Jari> In conclusion this looks like an interesting attack. It appears
    Jari> to exist without any network selection functionality, so its a
    Jari> general issue. What would you like to do with this issue - solve
    Jari> or document it? I am not sure if we talk about something like this
    Jari> already in the keying document. Or maybe we should go into business
    Jari> together and start selling software that does this on the background
    Jari> on everyone's PC ;-)

  I'd like a way to avoid the attack by careful network selection.
  If you think it is out of scope - that's fine. But it is, in my opinion
one of the major things that has fallen through the cracks between IETF
and IEEE. cf. my comment last summer about "subipSEC"

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@xelerance.com      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [


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    mcr>   However, GammaCoffee has found a way to make money without spending
    mcr> much.
    mcr>   They set their ESSID to "delta", and respond to EAP.

    Farid> Is this a legal thing to do?  That is, having two overlapping
    Farid> hotspots whose ESSID values are the same.  It seems that this will
    Farid> create other problems ...!  But, let's go on with this assumption.

  It is unlicensed space. Everything is legal, as long as you don't exceed
the transmit power. 
  Further, multiple APs on the same ESSID - well, that's how we arrange to
cover more space. This is a feature of 802.11.

  At this point, Farid's choice of non-Usenet anti-quoting loses me
completely, so he'll have to ask his question again.
	    (see http://www.lemis.com/email/fixing-outlook.html)

    Farid> Here you losing me!  Are we still talking about authentication
    Farid> packets here?  Who is passing the packets to DeltaCoffee's AP? 

  GammaCoffee's AP takes the packets from the client machine, NATs them,
and then *retransmits* them to Delta.

    Farid> How do supplicant's IP packets get sent to Delta hotspot?  If it
    Farid> double NATed, I assume that the packets are forwarded by some
    Farid> Access Router within Gamma to Delta.  That means that there has to
    Farid> be some business agreement between Gamma and Delta, otherwise
    Farid> Delta can simply drop the packets.  

  Delta thinks that Gamma is just another flat-rate customer.

]       ON HUMILITY: to err is human. To moo, bovine.           |  firewalls  [
]   Michael Richardson,    Xelerance Corporation, Ottawa, ON    |net architect[
] mcr@xelerance.com      http://www.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca/mcr/ |device driver[
] panic("Just another Debian GNU/Linux using, kernel hacking, security guy"); [
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