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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
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I'm editing -framework and resolving comments.

See in line for my responses

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shida Schubert [mailto:shida@ntt-at.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:55 PM
> To: ecrit@ietf.org
> Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; br@brianrosen.net
> Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> 
> 
> Hi;
> 
>  Few comments on the draft.
> 
>  1. What is the early URL? I can guess what this is but I think
>     it should be clarified somewhere as it
I removed the "early".  It's just a URI now.
> 
>  2. Section 3, 4th paragraph explains how the proxy(ESRP)
>    would query the LoST server to resolve a Service URN but
>    this is based on the assumption that the URI in the route header
>    addressing the PSAP(assuming we are using the loose-route
>    Jonathan proposed.) is stale. But is it really? And how do we
>    know. There is no indication to show how fresh the psap-URI
>    is. So UA can literally have obtained a new psap-URI just before
>    it initiated an emergency call but according to the draft, ESRP or
>    proxy would still redo the mapping.. Worse yet, because there is
>    no indication that mapping has been accomplished, we may see
>    multiple proxies redoing the mapping as it can't tell if the mapping
>    has been executed already.. I don't know if there is any resolution
>    to this and I actually don't know if this is really a problem but I
> figured
>    I should share my concern..
I'm in the midst of changing the example to be endpoint routed, rather than
proxy routed.  We want to promote the endpoint routed model anyway.  This
should eliminate the confusion in the text.  I think we need an unambiguous
indication that LoST mapping has been done.  We should discuss this point.
 
> 
>  3. Section 5.8 talks about location being validated prior to a device
> placing
>    an actual emergency call. I don't understand what the text is trying
> to say here.
>    How could the validation take place without the actual request?? I am
> probably
>    being stupid here and not fully understanding the text here so
> clarification would
>    be much appreciated.
If you read on, you will see that the real validation is loading the value
IN to the LIS.  The endpoint can revalidate when it gets location (which is
boot time and when it is reading location from the LIS), and any time
thereafter.


> 
>  4. Section 16.5. Call Signaling Integrity I think is better provided by
> SIP-Identity,
>    which can provide over some headers and message body end-to-end over
> TLS
>    which only provides integrity hop-by-hop. You already recommend the
> use of
>    sip-identity to provide caller-authentication, it won't hurt to
> recommend its use
>    to provide signaling integrity.
Well, most of the text talks about maintaining the privacy of the location
header, but I added text for the integrity protection Identity would get
you.

Thanks
Brian


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 01 22:02:47 2007
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Brian,

 My comments in-line.


Brian Rosen wrote:
> I'm editing -framework and resolving comments.
>
> See in line for my responses
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Shida Schubert [mailto:shida@ntt-at.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:55 PM
>> To: ecrit@ietf.org
>> Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; br@brianrosen.net
>> Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
>>
>>
>> Hi;
>>
>>  Few comments on the draft.
>>
>>  1. What is the early URL? I can guess what this is but I think
>>     it should be clarified somewhere as it
>>     
> I removed the "early".  It's just a URI now.
>   
>>  2. Section 3, 4th paragraph explains how the proxy(ESRP)
>>    would query the LoST server to resolve a Service URN but
>>    this is based on the assumption that the URI in the route header
>>    addressing the PSAP(assuming we are using the loose-route
>>    Jonathan proposed.) is stale. But is it really? And how do we
>>    know. There is no indication to show how fresh the psap-URI
>>    is. So UA can literally have obtained a new psap-URI just before
>>    it initiated an emergency call but according to the draft, ESRP or
>>    proxy would still redo the mapping.. Worse yet, because there is
>>    no indication that mapping has been accomplished, we may see
>>    multiple proxies redoing the mapping as it can't tell if the mapping
>>    has been executed already.. I don't know if there is any resolution
>>    to this and I actually don't know if this is really a problem but I
>> figured
>>    I should share my concern..
>>     
> I'm in the midst of changing the example to be endpoint routed, rather than
> proxy routed.  We want to promote the endpoint routed model anyway.  This
> should eliminate the confusion in the text.  I think we need an unambiguous
> indication that LoST mapping has been done.  We should discuss this point.
>   
 I agree.
 I think the current direction of how to route and label the emergency 
call was to place Service URN
in R-URI and PSAP URI in the Route header. Problem I see with this is 
that if there are more than
one LoST querying proxy, the recursive LoST query may result in each of 
the LoST server resolving
to the same URI placed in the Route header(time delay, failure at one 
server can mean call failure).

 As PSAP URI is expected to have no constant semantics indicating that 
it's a URI for PSAP, dip
indicator may be needed to prevent this recursive LoST query at every 
LoST querying proxy along
the signaling path.

 However, Henning did point out an interesting point (before or during 
the last IETF). I don't know
if I interpreted his comment properly though... If not Henning please 
clarify what you meant..

 As I understand Henning's idea was to use R-URI/Route header as an 
indicator to trigger the
resolution.

 1. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is not the proxy handling the 
message then the proxy is to assume
     the resolution is already done.
 2. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is the proxy handling the 
message then the proxy is to conduct
     the resolution if capable.
 3. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is empty obviously the 
resolution hasn't been completed thus
     the resolution is necessary if the proxy handling the message is 
capable to do so.

 I don't know how this would work with pre-configured route set and 
service-route etc.
 
>  
>   
>>  3. Section 5.8 talks about location being validated prior to a device
>> placing
>>    an actual emergency call. I don't understand what the text is trying
>> to say here.
>>    How could the validation take place without the actual request?? I am
>> probably
>>    being stupid here and not fully understanding the text here so
>> clarification would
>>    be much appreciated.
>>     
> If you read on, you will see that the real validation is loading the value
> IN to the LIS.  The endpoint can revalidate when it gets location (which is
> boot time and when it is reading location from the LIS), and any time
> thereafter.
>
>   
Okay.
>   
>>  4. Section 16.5. Call Signaling Integrity I think is better provided by
>> SIP-Identity,
>>    which can provide over some headers and message body end-to-end over
>> TLS
>>    which only provides integrity hop-by-hop. You already recommend the
>> use of
>>    sip-identity to provide caller-authentication, it won't hurt to
>> recommend its use
>>    to provide signaling integrity.
>>     
> Well, most of the text talks about maintaining the privacy of the location
> header, but I added text for the integrity protection Identity would get
> you.
>   
 Apologize for not reading it thorough enough.
> Thanks
> Brian
>
>
>   


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Hi all,

we would like to start a Working Group Last Call for the 
"Location-to-URL Mapping Architecture and Framework" draft:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-mapping-arch-01.txt

The WGLC starts today and will run until Friday 16th March.

Please review the document!

Ciao
Hannes & Marc


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 06:06:37 2007
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> I think the current direction of how to route and label the emergency 
> call was to place Service URN
> in R-URI and PSAP URI in the Route header. Problem I see with this is 
> that if there are more than
> one LoST querying proxy, the recursive LoST query may result in each of 
> the LoST server resolving
> to the same URI placed in the Route header(time delay, failure at one 
> server can mean call failure).

They should never resolve to the same URI, as that would presumably 
cause looping. Let's say if the outbound proxy resolves to (PSAP) URL A. 
If A does the resolution and again produces A, you have a problem. No 
amount of identification is going to help with that problem.

Please remember that SIP doesn't just randomly route messages. A proxy, 
except for the outbound proxy, will be named in the R-URL or the Route 
header. Otherwise, it's an error. You can't just expect to send a SIP 
message with a random URL to a proxy and say "please take care of it". 
(Otherwise, we'd have a problem very similar to the open relays in SMTP 
that caused a fair amount of email spam grief until running such an open 
relay would be a one-way ticket to a black list.)

> 
> As PSAP URI is expected to have no constant semantics indicating that 
> it's a URI for PSAP, dip
> indicator may be needed to prevent this recursive LoST query at every 
> LoST querying proxy along
> the signaling path.

See above; this doesn't work and is unnecessary.


> As I understand Henning's idea was to use R-URI/Route header as an 
> indicator to trigger the
> resolution.
> 
> 1. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is not the proxy handling the 
> message then the proxy is to assume
>     the resolution is already done.

As noted above, this can only occur if the proxy is an outbound proxy 
(P-CSCF in IMS terminology, I think).


> 2. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is the proxy handling the 
> message then the proxy is to conduct
>     the resolution if capable.

Right.

> 3. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is empty obviously the 
> resolution hasn't been completed thus
>     the resolution is necessary if the proxy handling the message is 
> capable to do so.
> 
> I don't know how this would work with pre-configured route set and 
> service-route etc.
> 

Case 2 applies. Details probably require a bit of thought, as there are 
several possible answers, depending on whether that resolving proxy also 
  "flushes" the remainder of the routes if it's in the middle of a route 
list or just adds the PSAP URI to the end of the list, which would be 
the normal behavior. I suspect that this depends a bit on the 
operational environment. Would an operator, for example, want the call 
to visit its service proxies before it heads to the PSAP? Given the 
proclivity of some architectures to tie, say, media authorization to SIP 
signaling, this may be necessary.

In short, I'm opposed to an explicit marking since it would either be 
redundant or insufficient. The latter would occur if multiple mappings 
are done, as you'd have to keep track not just of whether "a" mapping 
has taken place, but which ones and where, essentially re-inventing Via 
or history (4244), depending on the details of how calls are bounced around.

Henning

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Brian -

One comment in-line.

Terry Reese

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:39 PM
To: 'Shida Schubert'
Cc: 'ECRIT'
Subject: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00

I'm editing -framework and resolving comments.

See in line for my responses

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shida Schubert [mailto:shida@ntt-at.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:55 PM
> To: ecrit@ietf.org
> Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; br@brianrosen.net
> Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
>=20
>=20
> Hi;
>=20
>  Few comments on the draft.
>=20
>  1. What is the early URL? I can guess what this is but I think
>     it should be clarified somewhere as it
I removed the "early".  It's just a URI now.
>=20
>  2. Section 3, 4th paragraph explains how the proxy(ESRP)
>    would query the LoST server to resolve a Service URN but
>    this is based on the assumption that the URI in the route header
>    addressing the PSAP(assuming we are using the loose-route
>    Jonathan proposed.) is stale. But is it really? And how do we
>    know. There is no indication to show how fresh the psap-URI
>    is. So UA can literally have obtained a new psap-URI just before
>    it initiated an emergency call but according to the draft, ESRP or
>    proxy would still redo the mapping.. Worse yet, because there is
>    no indication that mapping has been accomplished, we may see
>    multiple proxies redoing the mapping as it can't tell if the
mapping
>    has been executed already.. I don't know if there is any resolution
>    to this and I actually don't know if this is really a problem but I
> figured
>    I should share my concern..
I'm in the midst of changing the example to be endpoint routed, rather
than
proxy routed.  We want to promote the endpoint routed model anyway.
This
should eliminate the confusion in the text.  I think we need an
unambiguous
indication that LoST mapping has been done.  We should discuss this
point.

[TER]  It should be made clear that the presence of such an indication
should in no way constrain a subsequent proxy from querying a LoST
server.  As we have discussed in the NENA Long Term Definition Working
Group, it is very likely that emergency call routing will involve
multiple queries being done by ESRPs of different levels (e.g., state,
county, city), with the potential for each to result in different
routing information.
=20
>=20
>  3. Section 5.8 talks about location being validated prior to a device
> placing
>    an actual emergency call. I don't understand what the text is
trying
> to say here.
>    How could the validation take place without the actual request?? I
am
> probably
>    being stupid here and not fully understanding the text here so
> clarification would
>    be much appreciated.
If you read on, you will see that the real validation is loading the
value
IN to the LIS.  The endpoint can revalidate when it gets location (which
is
boot time and when it is reading location from the LIS), and any time
thereafter.


>=20
>  4. Section 16.5. Call Signaling Integrity I think is better provided
by
> SIP-Identity,
>    which can provide over some headers and message body end-to-end
over
> TLS
>    which only provides integrity hop-by-hop. You already recommend the
> use of
>    sip-identity to provide caller-authentication, it won't hurt to
> recommend its use
>    to provide signaling integrity.
Well, most of the text talks about maintaining the privacy of the
location
header, but I added text for the integrity protection Identity would get
you.

Thanks
Brian


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 08:15:33 2007
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To: "'Reese, Theresa E'" <treese@telcordia.com>,
	"'Shida Schubert'" <shida@ntt-at.com>
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
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Sure.  We're just trying to make sure that proxies who try to be helpful
don't screw up when a prior element already did the dip.  The reliability of
the information tends to go down the farther you get from the endpoint.  

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Reese, Theresa E [mailto:treese@telcordia.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:44 AM
> To: Brian Rosen; Shida Schubert
> Cc: ECRIT
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> 
> Brian -
> 
> One comment in-line.
> 
> Terry Reese
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:39 PM
> To: 'Shida Schubert'
> Cc: 'ECRIT'
> Subject: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> 
> I'm editing -framework and resolving comments.
> 
> See in line for my responses
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shida Schubert [mailto:shida@ntt-at.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:55 PM
> > To: ecrit@ietf.org
> > Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; br@brianrosen.net
> > Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> >
> >
> > Hi;
> >
> >  Few comments on the draft.
> >
> >  1. What is the early URL? I can guess what this is but I think
> >     it should be clarified somewhere as it
> I removed the "early".  It's just a URI now.
> >
> >  2. Section 3, 4th paragraph explains how the proxy(ESRP)
> >    would query the LoST server to resolve a Service URN but
> >    this is based on the assumption that the URI in the route header
> >    addressing the PSAP(assuming we are using the loose-route
> >    Jonathan proposed.) is stale. But is it really? And how do we
> >    know. There is no indication to show how fresh the psap-URI
> >    is. So UA can literally have obtained a new psap-URI just before
> >    it initiated an emergency call but according to the draft, ESRP or
> >    proxy would still redo the mapping.. Worse yet, because there is
> >    no indication that mapping has been accomplished, we may see
> >    multiple proxies redoing the mapping as it can't tell if the
> mapping
> >    has been executed already.. I don't know if there is any resolution
> >    to this and I actually don't know if this is really a problem but I
> > figured
> >    I should share my concern..
> I'm in the midst of changing the example to be endpoint routed, rather
> than
> proxy routed.  We want to promote the endpoint routed model anyway.
> This
> should eliminate the confusion in the text.  I think we need an
> unambiguous
> indication that LoST mapping has been done.  We should discuss this
> point.
> 
> [TER]  It should be made clear that the presence of such an indication
> should in no way constrain a subsequent proxy from querying a LoST
> server.  As we have discussed in the NENA Long Term Definition Working
> Group, it is very likely that emergency call routing will involve
> multiple queries being done by ESRPs of different levels (e.g., state,
> county, city), with the potential for each to result in different
> routing information.
> 
> >
> >  3. Section 5.8 talks about location being validated prior to a device
> > placing
> >    an actual emergency call. I don't understand what the text is
> trying
> > to say here.
> >    How could the validation take place without the actual request?? I
> am
> > probably
> >    being stupid here and not fully understanding the text here so
> > clarification would
> >    be much appreciated.
> If you read on, you will see that the real validation is loading the
> value
> IN to the LIS.  The endpoint can revalidate when it gets location (which
> is
> boot time and when it is reading location from the LIS), and any time
> thereafter.
> 
> 
> >
> >  4. Section 16.5. Call Signaling Integrity I think is better provided
> by
> > SIP-Identity,
> >    which can provide over some headers and message body end-to-end
> over
> > TLS
> >    which only provides integrity hop-by-hop. You already recommend the
> > use of
> >    sip-identity to provide caller-authentication, it won't hurt to
> > recommend its use
> >    to provide signaling integrity.
> Well, most of the text talks about maintaining the privacy of the
> location
> header, but I added text for the integrity protection Identity would get
> you.
> 
> Thanks
> Brian
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


_______________________________________________
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Brian -

In the context of a multi-level ESRP model, I don't agree that
"reliability of the information tends to go down the farther you get
from the endpoint."

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net]=20
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:15 AM
To: Reese, Theresa E; 'Shida Schubert'
Cc: 'ECRIT'
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00

Sure.  We're just trying to make sure that proxies who try to be helpful
don't screw up when a prior element already did the dip.  The
reliability of
the information tends to go down the farther you get from the endpoint.


Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Reese, Theresa E [mailto:treese@telcordia.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:44 AM
> To: Brian Rosen; Shida Schubert
> Cc: ECRIT
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
>=20
> Brian -
>=20
> One comment in-line.
>=20
> Terry Reese
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:39 PM
> To: 'Shida Schubert'
> Cc: 'ECRIT'
> Subject: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
>=20
> I'm editing -framework and resolving comments.
>=20
> See in line for my responses
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shida Schubert [mailto:shida@ntt-at.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:55 PM
> > To: ecrit@ietf.org
> > Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; br@brianrosen.net
> > Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> >
> >
> > Hi;
> >
> >  Few comments on the draft.
> >
> >  1. What is the early URL? I can guess what this is but I think
> >     it should be clarified somewhere as it
> I removed the "early".  It's just a URI now.
> >
> >  2. Section 3, 4th paragraph explains how the proxy(ESRP)
> >    would query the LoST server to resolve a Service URN but
> >    this is based on the assumption that the URI in the route header
> >    addressing the PSAP(assuming we are using the loose-route
> >    Jonathan proposed.) is stale. But is it really? And how do we
> >    know. There is no indication to show how fresh the psap-URI
> >    is. So UA can literally have obtained a new psap-URI just before
> >    it initiated an emergency call but according to the draft, ESRP
or
> >    proxy would still redo the mapping.. Worse yet, because there is
> >    no indication that mapping has been accomplished, we may see
> >    multiple proxies redoing the mapping as it can't tell if the
> mapping
> >    has been executed already.. I don't know if there is any
resolution
> >    to this and I actually don't know if this is really a problem but
I
> > figured
> >    I should share my concern..
> I'm in the midst of changing the example to be endpoint routed, rather
> than
> proxy routed.  We want to promote the endpoint routed model anyway.
> This
> should eliminate the confusion in the text.  I think we need an
> unambiguous
> indication that LoST mapping has been done.  We should discuss this
> point.
>=20
> [TER]  It should be made clear that the presence of such an indication
> should in no way constrain a subsequent proxy from querying a LoST
> server.  As we have discussed in the NENA Long Term Definition Working
> Group, it is very likely that emergency call routing will involve
> multiple queries being done by ESRPs of different levels (e.g., state,
> county, city), with the potential for each to result in different
> routing information.
>=20
> >
> >  3. Section 5.8 talks about location being validated prior to a
device
> > placing
> >    an actual emergency call. I don't understand what the text is
> trying
> > to say here.
> >    How could the validation take place without the actual request??
I
> am
> > probably
> >    being stupid here and not fully understanding the text here so
> > clarification would
> >    be much appreciated.
> If you read on, you will see that the real validation is loading the
> value
> IN to the LIS.  The endpoint can revalidate when it gets location
(which
> is
> boot time and when it is reading location from the LIS), and any time
> thereafter.
>=20
>=20
> >
> >  4. Section 16.5. Call Signaling Integrity I think is better
provided
> by
> > SIP-Identity,
> >    which can provide over some headers and message body end-to-end
> over
> > TLS
> >    which only provides integrity hop-by-hop. You already recommend
the
> > use of
> >    sip-identity to provide caller-authentication, it won't hurt to
> > recommend its use
> >    to provide signaling integrity.
> Well, most of the text talks about maintaining the privacy of the
> location
> header, but I added text for the integrity protection Identity would
get
> you.
>=20
> Thanks
> Brian
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


_______________________________________________
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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 02 08:38:22 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
To: "'Reese, Theresa E'" <treese@telcordia.com>,
	"'Shida Schubert'" <shida@ntt-at.com>
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
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Ah, we're talking past each other. 

I'm referring to proxies in the origination network, not in the emergency
services network.  Agree that within the emergency services networks, you
may well do multiple levels of location based routing.  State level ESRPs to
PSAPs, PSAP ESRP to call takers.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Reese, Theresa E [mailto:treese@telcordia.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:18 AM
> To: Brian Rosen; Shida Schubert
> Cc: ECRIT
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> 
> Brian -
> 
> In the context of a multi-level ESRP model, I don't agree that
> "reliability of the information tends to go down the farther you get
> from the endpoint."
> 
> Terry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:15 AM
> To: Reese, Theresa E; 'Shida Schubert'
> Cc: 'ECRIT'
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> 
> Sure.  We're just trying to make sure that proxies who try to be helpful
> don't screw up when a prior element already did the dip.  The
> reliability of
> the information tends to go down the farther you get from the endpoint.
> 
> 
> Brian
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Reese, Theresa E [mailto:treese@telcordia.com]
> > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:44 AM
> > To: Brian Rosen; Shida Schubert
> > Cc: ECRIT
> > Subject: RE: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> >
> > Brian -
> >
> > One comment in-line.
> >
> > Terry Reese
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:39 PM
> > To: 'Shida Schubert'
> > Cc: 'ECRIT'
> > Subject: [Ecrit] RE: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> >
> > I'm editing -framework and resolving comments.
> >
> > See in line for my responses
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Shida Schubert [mailto:shida@ntt-at.com]
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:55 PM
> > > To: ecrit@ietf.org
> > > Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; br@brianrosen.net
> > > Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi;
> > >
> > >  Few comments on the draft.
> > >
> > >  1. What is the early URL? I can guess what this is but I think
> > >     it should be clarified somewhere as it
> > I removed the "early".  It's just a URI now.
> > >
> > >  2. Section 3, 4th paragraph explains how the proxy(ESRP)
> > >    would query the LoST server to resolve a Service URN but
> > >    this is based on the assumption that the URI in the route header
> > >    addressing the PSAP(assuming we are using the loose-route
> > >    Jonathan proposed.) is stale. But is it really? And how do we
> > >    know. There is no indication to show how fresh the psap-URI
> > >    is. So UA can literally have obtained a new psap-URI just before
> > >    it initiated an emergency call but according to the draft, ESRP
> or
> > >    proxy would still redo the mapping.. Worse yet, because there is
> > >    no indication that mapping has been accomplished, we may see
> > >    multiple proxies redoing the mapping as it can't tell if the
> > mapping
> > >    has been executed already.. I don't know if there is any
> resolution
> > >    to this and I actually don't know if this is really a problem but
> I
> > > figured
> > >    I should share my concern..
> > I'm in the midst of changing the example to be endpoint routed, rather
> > than
> > proxy routed.  We want to promote the endpoint routed model anyway.
> > This
> > should eliminate the confusion in the text.  I think we need an
> > unambiguous
> > indication that LoST mapping has been done.  We should discuss this
> > point.
> >
> > [TER]  It should be made clear that the presence of such an indication
> > should in no way constrain a subsequent proxy from querying a LoST
> > server.  As we have discussed in the NENA Long Term Definition Working
> > Group, it is very likely that emergency call routing will involve
> > multiple queries being done by ESRPs of different levels (e.g., state,
> > county, city), with the potential for each to result in different
> > routing information.
> >
> > >
> > >  3. Section 5.8 talks about location being validated prior to a
> device
> > > placing
> > >    an actual emergency call. I don't understand what the text is
> > trying
> > > to say here.
> > >    How could the validation take place without the actual request??
> I
> > am
> > > probably
> > >    being stupid here and not fully understanding the text here so
> > > clarification would
> > >    be much appreciated.
> > If you read on, you will see that the real validation is loading the
> > value
> > IN to the LIS.  The endpoint can revalidate when it gets location
> (which
> > is
> > boot time and when it is reading location from the LIS), and any time
> > thereafter.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >  4. Section 16.5. Call Signaling Integrity I think is better
> provided
> > by
> > > SIP-Identity,
> > >    which can provide over some headers and message body end-to-end
> > over
> > > TLS
> > >    which only provides integrity hop-by-hop. You already recommend
> the
> > > use of
> > >    sip-identity to provide caller-authentication, it won't hurt to
> > > recommend its use
> > >    to provide signaling integrity.
> > Well, most of the text talks about maintaining the privacy of the
> > location
> > header, but I added text for the integrity protection Identity would
> get
> > you.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Brian
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ecrit mailing list
> > Ecrit@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13 as a result of AD comments
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I've updated the requirements draft, which has been submitted, and will
get posted as draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13 soon. =20

RE: Change log to document changes from:
draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12 to upcoming version -13.
Date: 3/02/07
By: R. Marshall


C1. Delete following requirement Ma18, since it is not clear how it is
different than Ma15.

Ma18.  Alternate mapping sources: The mapping protocol MUST implement a
mechanism that allows for the retrieval of mapping information from
different sources.

Motivation: This provides the possibility of having available
alternative sources of mapping information when the normal source  is
unavailable or unreachable.


C2. Renumber Ma19 to Ma18 per above.


C3. Change last paragraph to section 1, based on Jon's comment:
I expected the last paragraph in Section 1 to have an additional=20
>> sentence saying something to the effect that the latter use=20
>> (displaying location information at the PSAP) is orthogonal to the=20
>> mapping protocol problem and the scope of this document.

Change from:

Location is required for two separate purposes, first, to support the
routing of the emergency call to the appropriate PSAP and second, to
display the caller's location to the call taker to help in dispatching
emergency assistance to the appropriate location.

Change to: (appended paragraph)

Location is required for two separate purposes, first, to support the
routing of the emergency call to the appropriate PSAP and second, to
display the caller's location to the call taker to help in dispatching
emergency assistance to the appropriate location.

This latter use, the display of location information to the PSAP, is
orthogonal to the mapping protocol, and is outside the scope of this
document.


C4. Change term "Internet Attachment Provider", based on comment below:

>> 3.2 - The term "Internet Attachment Provider" is not a common one,=20
>> and doesn't seem to be distinguished from the more common concept of=20
>> an access network. I would suggest that "access network" at least be=20
>> provided as a synonym in the definition.
>
> My suggestion would be to switch to "Internet Access Provider", as=20
> that seems closer to common usage. Plus, 'attachment' is probably not=20
> a good fit for, say, 'unattached' network connections, such as
wireless..

Change from: "Internet Attachment Provider" to: "Internet Access
Provider"=20
(throughout, including diagram).


C5. Change definition of ESRP from a B2BUA, to something more general,
per the folowing AD review comment.

>> 3.4 - I'm not sure what the need is to suggest that the ESRP function

>> might be performed by a B2BUA. At a high level, I suppose I see the=20
>> mapping client function as one that could be performed by a number of

>> entities, including entities that instantiate the SIP proxy role and=20
>> the SIP user agent client role. I think language to that effect would

>> be preferable to suggesting that there is some motivation for pairing

>> the mapping client function with a B2BUA.

Change from:

   Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP): An ESRP is an emergency call
      routing support entity that invokes the location-to-PSAP URI
      mapping, to return either the URI for the appropriate PSAP, or the
      URI for another ESRP.  (In a SIP system, the ESRP would typically
      be a SIP proxy, but may also be a back-to-back user agent
      (B2BUA)).

Change to:

   Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP): An ESRP is an emergency call
      routing support entity that invokes the location-to-PSAP URI
      mapping function, to return an appropriate PSAP URI, or the
      URI for another ESRP.  Client mapping requests could also be=20
      performed by a number of entities, including entities that=20
      instantiate the SIP proxy role and the SIP user agent client role.


C6. Fix broken sentence, (per comment below):

>> (Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific=20
>> (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) contains the address

>> of the PSAP or other emergency service.
>>
>> after the im: citation, you probably want the words: "identifier=20
>> which"
>>
Yes, "identifier which" must be added.

Change from:

   (Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific
      (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) contains the
      address of the PSAP or other emergency service.  It depends on the
      specific signaling or data transport protocol used to reach the
      emergency service.

Change to:

   (Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific
      (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) identifier which
contains the
      address of the PSAP or other emergency service.  It depends on the
      specific signaling or data transport protocol used to reach the
      emergency service.


C7. Change Lo5 Heading (per comment below):

>> In Section 6, why is Lo5 called "Validation resolution"? The=20
>> description of the requirement doesn't seem to relate to validation=20
>> or resolution, as far as I can tell. "Additional Information" or=20
>> something might be a better name for this requirement.
>
> I agree that the heading is not helpful. I'd suggest calling it
>
> Information about location data used for mapping
>
>
I agree that changing the heading would help to make it clearer.

Change Lo5 heading from: "Validation resolution"=20

Change Lo5 heading to: "Information about location data used for
mapping"


C8.=20

>> In Section 8, Ma11 uses the seemingly innocuous name "URI properties"
>> to provide requirements that seem to contradict Ma8. If the mapping=20
>> protocol is going to return multiple PSAP URIs as described in Ma11,=20
>> there should be a story stronger than "local policy" to meet the=20
>> requirement of Ma8. You might want to find a better name for Ma11=20
>> than "URI properties", too.

[RM comment - Whereas Ma8 is a SHOULD, i.e., that it is optimal for only
one URI be returned, yet it allows for cases where more than one may be
returned, Ma11 is a MUST, i.e., must be able to return extra info to
help pick one URI over the other - in the case where there are multiple
URIs returned.  I see no contradiction between the two reqs.]

No change made to either Ma8 or Ma11.


C9. Change to Ma15 Heading, change from, "Resilience to failure" to,
"Resilience to mapping server failure" (per the comments below).

[above comment con't]
>>
>> Also in 8, how is Ma15 different from Ma18?
>
> I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly, but Ma15 talks=20
> about reliability of the mapping protocol, while Ma8 talks about=20
> returning mappings to achieve reliability. To make this clearer, the=20
> title in Ma15 should be changed to
>
> Resilience to mapping server failure
>
I also believe that the problem would be fixed by changing the heading
of Ma15 to "Resilience to mapping server failure".


C10. Delete requirement Ma9 (per Henning's/Hannes' comments below):

> By the way, we've decided to not do Ma9, based on additional=20
> discussion, so I'd suggest dropping it. Not that anybody is going to=20
> do a point-by-point comparison of LoST to the requirements document...
>
I would also suggest to delete Ma9.

Requirement Ma9 deleted.
Requirements Ma10-Ma18 now renamed to Ma9-Ma17.

/end.

Roger Marshall =20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 6:12 AM
>To: Peterson, Jon
>Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu; Roger Marshall;=20
>Marc Linsner
>Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt
>
>Hi Jon,
>
>Ma15 vs. Ma18: Let's delete Ma18. I cannot figure out what the=20
>difference is to Ma15.
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>
>Peterson, Jon wrote:
>>>>> Also in 8, how is Ma15 different from Ma18?
>>>>>        =20
>>>> I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly, but
>>>>      =20
>>> Ma15 talks
>>>    =20
>>>> about reliability of the mapping protocol, while Ma8 talks about=20
>>>> returning mappings to achieve reliability. To make this
>>>>      =20
>>> clearer, the
>>>    =20
>>>> title in Ma15 should be changed to
>>>>
>>>> Resilience to mapping server failure
>>>>
>>>>      =20
>>> I also believe that the problem would be fixed by changing the=20
>>> heading of Ma15 to "Resilience to mapping server failure".
>>>
>>> Ma8 is fine as it is and fits perfectly what we did in the protocol=20
>>> design.
>>>    =20
>>
>> For the record, I was asking how Ma15 is different from
>-Ma18-, not -Ma8-.
>>
>> - J
>>  =20
>
>


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Henning,
>> I think the current direction of how to route and label the emergency 
>> call was to place Service URN
>> in R-URI and PSAP URI in the Route header. Problem I see with this is 
>> that if there are more than
>> one LoST querying proxy, the recursive LoST query may result in each 
>> of the LoST server resolving
>> to the same URI placed in the Route header(time delay, failure at one 
>> server can mean call failure).
>
> They should never resolve to the same URI, as that would presumably 
> cause looping. Let's say if the outbound proxy resolves to (PSAP) URL 
> A. If A does the resolution and again produces A, you have a problem. 
> No amount of identification is going to help with that problem.
>
> Please remember that SIP doesn't just randomly route messages. A 
> proxy, except for the outbound proxy, will be named in the R-URL or 
> the Route header. Otherwise, it's an error. You can't just expect to 
> send a SIP message with a random URL to a proxy and say "please take 
> care of it". (Otherwise, we'd have a problem very similar to the open 
> relays in SMTP that caused a fair amount of email spam grief until 
> running such an open relay would be a one-way ticket to a black list.)

 The source of resolution is location, so I am assuming every time you 
conduct the resolution,
the resolution in fact should resolve to the same URL. So your statement 
about resolution pointing
to a different PSAP URI puzzles me and concerns me a bit.
 If you are calling the fact that resolution for same location-info 
always resolve to the same URI
is a loop, and is a problem then I think we have problem in hand.

 1. Assuming user was roaming from a hotel.
 2. User ends up with record-set for outbound proxy of the hotel and 
home proxy.
 3. UA does the LoST resolution and forwards the request to outbound proxy.
 4. Outbound proxy does the LoST resolution and forwards the request to 
the next route(home proxy).
 5. Home proxy does the LoST resolution and forwards the request to the 
next route(hopefully PSAP).

 I think what's illustrated above can easily happen. I may be 
misunderstanding something very fundamental
and if so, I do appreciate it if you can aid me so I have the right 
understanding.

 As I was thinking about this, another question I had was if there are 
more than one LoST querying proxy
on the signaling path what happens when each LoST querying proxy uses 
different location information
contained in the request. 

 Assuming I was in Prague, connecting to my home proxy via VPN and my UA 
obtained location from
  1. GPS (geo-location[Prague])
  2. DHCP (civic-location[Czech])
 and home proxy inserted location reference (may be civic-location[North 
America])

 Each of the location may be different enough that resolution for each 
of the location may resolve to a different
PSAP URI. And if the behavior of proxy for the resolved URI is to push 
it into the route-set, the request may end
up with 3 Route entry each destined for different PSAPs.  Probably not a 
problem, as I understand PSAP operator
always ask for the physical location to the caller..

 Regards
  Shida

>
>>
>> As PSAP URI is expected to have no constant semantics indicating that 
>> it's a URI for PSAP, dip
>> indicator may be needed to prevent this recursive LoST query at every 
>> LoST querying proxy along
>> the signaling path.
>
> See above; this doesn't work and is unnecessary.
>
>
>> As I understand Henning's idea was to use R-URI/Route header as an 
>> indicator to trigger the
>> resolution.
>>
>> 1. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is not the proxy handling the 
>> message then the proxy is to assume
>>     the resolution is already done.
>
> As noted above, this can only occur if the proxy is an outbound proxy 
> (P-CSCF in IMS terminology, I think).
>
>
>> 2. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is the proxy handling the 
>> message then the proxy is to conduct
>>     the resolution if capable.
>
> Right.
>
>> 3. If R-URI is urn:sos and Route header is empty obviously the 
>> resolution hasn't been completed thus
>>     the resolution is necessary if the proxy handling the message is 
>> capable to do so.
>>
>> I don't know how this would work with pre-configured route set and 
>> service-route etc.
>>
>
> Case 2 applies. Details probably require a bit of thought, as there 
> are several possible answers, depending on whether that resolving 
> proxy also  "flushes" the remainder of the routes if it's in the 
> middle of a route list or just adds the PSAP URI to the end of the 
> list, which would be the normal behavior. I suspect that this depends 
> a bit on the operational environment. Would an operator, for example, 
> want the call to visit its service proxies before it heads to the 
> PSAP? Given the proclivity of some architectures to tie, say, media 
> authorization to SIP signaling, this may be necessary.
>
> In short, I'm opposed to an explicit marking since it would either be 
> redundant or insufficient. The latter would occur if multiple mappings 
> are done, as you'd have to keep track not just of whether "a" mapping 
> has taken place, but which ones and where, essentially re-inventing 
> Via or history (4244), depending on the details of how calls are 
> bounced around.
>
> Henning
>
>


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> The source of resolution is location, so I am assuming every time you 
> conduct the resolution,
> the resolution in fact should resolve to the same URL. So your statement 

Not necessarily. The idea, discussed on this list, would be that you do 
incremental resolution:

location -> national ESRP uses location to derive -> state ESRP, which 
uses location to arrive at actual PSAP

Thus, you might have the URLs

esrp@fema.gov
emergency@nj.state.us
911@leonianj.gov

along the way.

> 
> Each of the location may be different enough that resolution for each of 
> the location may resolve to a different
> PSAP URI. And if the behavior of proxy for the resolved URI is to push 
> it into the route-set, the request may end
> up with 3 Route entry each destined for different PSAPs.  Probably not a 
> problem, as I understand PSAP operator
> always ask for the physical location to the caller..

Note that the route will only be pushed once the call actually reaches 
that destination, unless each intermediary decides to do resolution from 
scratch. Even in that case, there will be somewhat rational behavior in 
that the call will arrive at the PSAP that has been identified first, 
with some additional Route's left over.


> 
> Regards
>  Shida
>

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Hmm.. Interesting..

 I understand how this would work once it gets into the ESRP domain(or
network or whatever you want to call it), to find a finer grained 
resolution.

 What I want to know is if I am understanding correctly whether UA,
hotel proxy and home proxy when conducting a LoST query on say, civic 
location
obtained through DHCP, that it would resolve to a same URI(PSAP or ESRP..)?

 If not I am totally LoST..

 Regards
  Shida


Henning Schulzrinne wrote:
>> The source of resolution is location, so I am assuming every time you 
>> conduct the resolution,
>> the resolution in fact should resolve to the same URL. So your statement 
>
> Not necessarily. The idea, discussed on this list, would be that you 
> do incremental resolution:
>
> location -> national ESRP uses location to derive -> state ESRP, which 
> uses location to arrive at actual PSAP
>
> Thus, you might have the URLs
>
> esrp@fema.gov
> emergency@nj.state.us
> 911@leonianj.gov
>
> along the way.
>
>>
>> Each of the location may be different enough that resolution for each 
>> of the location may resolve to a different
>> PSAP URI. And if the behavior of proxy for the resolved URI is to 
>> push it into the route-set, the request may end
>> up with 3 Route entry each destined for different PSAPs.  Probably 
>> not a problem, as I understand PSAP operator
>> always ask for the physical location to the caller..
>
> Note that the route will only be pushed once the call actually reaches 
> that destination, unless each intermediary decides to do resolution 
> from scratch. Even in that case, there will be somewhat rational 
> behavior in that the call will arrive at the PSAP that has been 
> identified first, with some additional Route's left over.
>
>
>>
>> Regards
>>  Shida
>>
>
>


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Shida Schubert wrote:
> What I want to know is if I am understanding correctly whether UA,
> hotel proxy and home proxy when conducting a LoST query on say, civic 
> location
> obtained through DHCP, that it would resolve to a same URI(PSAP or ESRP..)?

Yes, like you said - it would be rather odd (and some kind of fault) if 
they didn't. There are various disclaimers about caching behavior, 
roundtrip delays while databases are being updated, etc, but I don't 
think you were worried about that...

> 
> If not I am totally LoST..
> 
> Regards
>  Shida

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 16:32:37 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] Modification proposals for media support in
	draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp
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I want to propose a few small modifications to=20
draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt


1. Editorial and explanation.
----------------------------------
The last lines in section 2 reads:

  =93o  The proxy recognizes the call as an emergency call and routes =
the
      call using normal SIP routing mechanisms
   [RFC4504] details Best Current Practice for SIP user agents.  This
   memo can be considered an addition to it for endpoints.=94

A full stop is missing after mechanisms, and it is unusual to start a
sentence with a reference. I also suggest to include a hint on what is =
found
in RFC 4504

I suggest a slight change to:

"  o  The proxy recognizes the call as an emergency call, routes the
      call using normal SIP routing mechanisms.

Best Current Practice for SIP user agents including handling of audio =
and
real-time text [RFC 4103] media detailed in [RFC4504] SHOULD be applied.
This memo can be considered an addition to it for endpoints."

2. Add a bullet point in the list in section 2.
------------------------------------------------
I also suggest that the sequence of steps should end with media
establishment rather than just routing

Insert as a new bullet point last in the list in section 2:

   o  The call is established and common media streams opened.


3. More real-time text improvements
---------------------------------------
Section 3 starts:
" Although present PSAPs have only support for voice calls"

That is not true. A reasonable part of the population has also support =
for
real-time text calls. So, the support for real-time text expected from =
IP is
to maintain and extend support rather than fulfilling new expectations.

I suggest rewording to:

" Support for voice calls and real-time text calls placed
through PSTN facilities or systems connected to the PSTN is found in =
present
PSAPs. Future PSAPs will however support Internet connectivity and a =
wider
range of media types and provide higher functionality."

4. Handle unused references.
----------------------------
In the current version, I have observed two unused references.
[RFC 4103] and [draft-ietf-sipping-toip], both related to the real-time =
text
medium.=20

Revival of reference [rfc 4103] is proposed in 3) above.

In order to revive the use of [sipping-toip], I suggest adding this line
between the two paragraphs of section 3:

"The expectations for emergency service support for the real-time text
medium, described in [draft-ietf-sipping-toip], section 7.1 SHOULD be
fulfilled."

( draft-ietf-sipping-toip-07 is in publication requested state )



With these small changes I think the phonebcp draft will be a good =
guidance
for design of user terminals.



Thanks

Gunnar

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
Tel: +46708204288
www.omnitor.se



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I did not make many of the suggested additions in this review.

The subject of signing location is active, and when it concludes, I will add
text accordingly.

A number of other suggestions, I did not agree with, and will raise at
another time after I get this version out.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:51 AM
> To: ECRIT
> Cc: Nennker, Axel
> Subject: [Ecrit] Review of the ECRIT Framework Draft
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Axel Nennker has done a review of draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00.txt and
> he also suggests text!
> 
> Here is his review:
> http://www.ietf-ecrit.org/TEMP/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00-nennker.doc
> 
> Thank you Axel for your work.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
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I'm finally editing -framework.   See my responses inline

 

  _____  

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:Barbara.Stark@BellSouth.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 10:58 AM
To: ECRIT
Subject: [Ecrit] Comments on [draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00.txt]

 

I reviewed this document from the perspective of an employee of a major
service provider. Nonetheless, these opinions are mine, as an individual.

I think the overall framework here is reasonable and do-able, and I support
this effort. I also understand that this document is incomplete and not
ready for publication, and it will continue to be improved upon.

As a general comment, I had to review phonebcp in conjunction with this
framework, because there are so many references to it. I realize phonebcp
isn't an ecrit document, but I would recommend it be included on the service
provider review page. It's highly integral to understanding the overall
architecture.

<br>I agree.  -framework (which is informative and big picture) refers to
-phonebcp (which is "normative" in the sense that a BCP specifies behavior)
and -phonebcp tries to mechanize what -framework says.  I don't see any
request to change text in either document here, but if you have suggestions,
they would be welcome

Specific comments: 
------------------------------ 
The definition of ESRP in ecrit requirements seems different than the
definition of ESRP in the NENA i3 Functional and Interface Standards. The
ecrit requirements and the usage of the term in "framework" seem to suggest
that the ESRP could be in the VSP (voice provider) network, since proxies in
the VSP network may also do LoST queries. It's not clear that the ESRP
expects to get a different LoST response than the endpoint. The NENA doc
says that the ESRP is an entry point to a group of PSAPs, and implies that
it is the thing that gets routed to by the uri returned by the SIP device's
LoST query. Is there something we can do so ESRP means the same thing in
both places? I think the NENA usage is what's intended, and the query for
routing info done by the ESRP returns different and more detailed routing
info than the one done by the SIP end device. The SIP device LoST query
leads to the ESRP, and the ESRP query leads to the PSAP. It's also possible
for the VSP proxy to do LoST queries, but that doesn't make it an ESRP. A
VSP proxy's LoST query would return the same uri as the SIP device's query.

<br>I have modified the text to make it more clear that an "ESRP" is
something in the emergency services domain.  I just call a proxy that may
provide some emergency call services a "sip proxy server".  In the IMS
world, that would be an "E-CSCF", but if I had my druthers, it would be the
endpoing doing the work, with the regular outbound proxy (the first proxy
that gets a call) doing backstop for the endpoint not doing it.  We're not
going to get into the NENA i3 work in this document.

ecrit requirements:
Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP): An ESRP is an emergency call routing
support entity that invokes the location-to-PSAP URI mapping, to return
either the URI for the appropriate PSAP, or the URI for another ESRP. (In a
SIP system, the ESRP would typically be a SIP proxy, but may also be a
back-to-back user agent (B2BUA)). 

NENA:
Emergency Services Routing Proxy (ESRP) - This ESRP is a routing proxy that
acts on behalf of a group of PSAPs, to provide intermediate or final routing
to the PSAP, based on the caller's location. This function is not identified
explicitly in the i3 functional architecture, but has been discussed in
industry presentations and the concept is included in Framework for
Emergency Calling in Internet Multimedia
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosen-ecrit-framework-00.txt>
[3]. The ESRP function is included in the example physical architecture.

Section 2, 3rd full paragraph on Page 6 
The term "master-slave" is considered politically incorrect by many
governmental bodies in the US. I recommend using other terms to describe
these protocols.

<br> fixed

Section 3, Figure 1 
Needs descriptive text. What do the numbers mean? Boxes also need
definition, although they're defined in the Figure 2 description. This is
all just editorial, though. 

<br>the numbers are defined in the text as the message numbers.  I have
significantly reworked this part.  Would you look at it again and tell me if
you think I've dealt with this problems?

Bullet 2 (of Figure 2 description) 
What is meant by "local domain"? I usually consider my "local domain" to be
the domain of my home router, or the domain of my ISP (if my router has no
domain). But SIP registration uses a SIP domain, which I don't see as overly
"local", since the registration server could be 1000 miles away, or more.
Could this maybe be worded something like  "...for Alice's UA to register
with. Most SIP UAs will register with a server, so it will be a common
scenario for UAs that make emergency calls to be registered with a server."

<br> fixed

Bullet 3 [editorial]: change "initiated" to "initiates" 

<br>I reworded text here, and "initiated is gone

Paragraph after the bullets 
"...UA ... has location configured within her UA when her UA boots..." Is
this meant to describe the case where the UA gets location configuration as
part of its boot process, such as DHCP or L7 CP? Or does it imply a
statically stored location which the UA finds and uses during its boot
process? This wasn't clear to me. In general, I think there are 3 basic ways
the UA could be configured: (1) a saved manually entered location, (2)
location manually entered after it boots, (3) receives a location from the
network. The location from the network could be a measured location, or it
could be based on knowing the physical locations of network termination
points. This sentence doesn't convey that to me.

<br>the text has been edited heavily.  Is it more clear now?

Next paragraph, that starts with "Some time..." 
[Editorial]: change "initiated" to "initiates" 

<br>fixed

Section 6.3 
2nd paragraph: "XRef" should probably be [phonebcp]? If it is, then the 3rd
to last sentence and the last sentence would be redundant. Note that these
guidelines for dealing with multiple locations are not in phonebcp at this
time. I'll make this comment against phonebcp.

<br> -pidf-lo-profile discusses the various ways you get multiple location
things and what they should be used for.  Conveyance adds yet another
dimension to that.  -phonebcp needs text to advise.  I fixed the reference
here to -pidf-lo-profile, and added "additional" to "guidance".

3rd paragraph 
[editorial] end of the paragraph "...and ask the caller with." doesn't make
sense. 

<br>fixed

Section 5.4 
[editorial] 2 instances where "can" needs to be "can be" 

<br> fixed

Section 5.8 
I recommend changing "...to ensure that phone billing records correspond to
valid..." to 
"...to ensure that the service addresses in phone billing records correspond
to valid..." 

Section 5.9 
What is CMTS? 
Naturally, "(how?)" needs to be resolved. 

<br>defined as Cable Modem Termination system.  We need a discussion on how
to mark default locations. 

Section 6 
Paragraph at the end of page 20. 
I had questions here as to whether this VSP proxy would be an ESRP, based on
the ecrit requirements definition and the usage of that term in this
document. I'm hoping it would not be an ESRP.

<br>It's not, and the adjusted text above should make that clear

Section 7 
I'm not sure how practical persistent TLS connection are for large VSPs,
given that they may have to connect to thousands of PSAPs.

<br>I don't think that is a problem.  In practical terms in the U.S. the VSP
will connect to 50 state level ESRPs, which will be next hop for them.

Section 9 
Recommend several references to phonebcp in this section, since phonebcp
specifically discusses where these IDs are placed in the SIP message.

<br>done

Section 11 
I would slightly expand this section to also mention the disabling of
calling features. For example, change the header and add a sentence like
"The disabling of other call features, such as call waiting, is also
discussed in phonebcp.

<br>done

Barbara Stark
BellSouth Science & Technology (a recently acquired part of AT&T) 

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m finally editing
&#8211;framework.&nbsp;&nbsp; See my responses =
inline<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0mm 0mm =
0mm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
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face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Stark, Barbara
[mailto:Barbara.Stark@BellSouth.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007 10:58
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ECRIT<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Ecrit] Comments =
on
[draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-00.txt]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I
reviewed this document from the perspective of an employee of a major =
service
provider. Nonetheless, these opinions are mine, as an =
individual.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I
think the overall framework here is reasonable and do-able, and I =
support this
effort. I also understand that this document is incomplete and not ready =
for
publication, and it will continue to be improved =
upon.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>As
a general comment, I had to review phonebcp in conjunction with this =
framework,
because there are so many references to it. I realize phonebcp isn't an =
ecrit
document, but I would recommend it be included on the service provider =
review
page. It's highly integral to understanding the overall =
architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&lt;br&gt;I agree.&nbsp; &#8211;framework (which is
informative and big picture) refers to &#8211;phonebcp (which is
&#8220;normative&#8221; in the sense that a BCP specifies behavior) and
&#8211;phonebcp tries to mechanize what &#8211;framework says.&nbsp; I
don&#8217;t see any request to change text in either document here, but =
if you
have suggestions, they would be welcome<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Specific
comments:</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----------------------------=
--</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
definition of ESRP in ecrit requirements seems different than the =
definition of
ESRP in the NENA i3 Functional and Interface Standards. The ecrit =
requirements
and the usage of the term in &quot;framework&quot; seem to suggest that =
the
ESRP could be in the VSP (voice provider) network, since proxies in the =
VSP
network may also do LoST queries. It's not clear that the ESRP expects =
to get a
different LoST response than the endpoint. The NENA doc says that the =
ESRP is
an entry point to a group of PSAPs, and implies that it is the thing =
that gets
routed to by the uri returned by the SIP device's LoST query. Is there
something we can do so ESRP means the same thing in both places? I think =
the
NENA usage is what's intended, and the query for routing info done by =
the ESRP
returns different and more detailed routing info than the one done by =
the SIP
end device. The SIP device LoST query leads to the ESRP, and the ESRP =
query
leads to the PSAP. It's also possible for the VSP proxy to do LoST =
queries, but
that doesn't make it an ESRP. A VSP proxy's LoST query would return the =
same
uri as the SIP device's query.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&lt;br&gt;I have modified the text to make it more =
clear that
an &#8220;ESRP&#8221; is something in the emergency services =
domain.&nbsp; I
just call a proxy that may provide some emergency call services a =
&#8220;sip
proxy server&#8221;.&nbsp; In the IMS world, that would be an
&#8220;E-CSCF&#8221;, but if I had my druthers, it would be the endpoing =
doing
the work, with the regular outbound proxy (the first proxy that gets a =
call)
doing backstop for the endpoint not doing it.&nbsp; We&#8217;re not =
going to
get into the NENA i3 work in this document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>ecrit
requirements:<br>
Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP): An ESRP is an emergency call =
routing
support entity that invokes the location-to-PSAP URI mapping, to return =
either
the URI for the appropriate PSAP, or the URI for another ESRP. (In a SIP
system, the ESRP would typically be a SIP proxy, but may also be a =
back-to-back
user agent (B2BUA)). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>NENA:<br>
Emergency Services Routing Proxy (ESRP) - This ESRP is a routing proxy =
that
acts on behalf of a group of PSAPs, to provide intermediate or final =
routing to
the PSAP, based on the caller&#8217;s location. This function is not =
identified
explicitly in the i3 functional architecture, but has been discussed in
industry presentations and the concept is included in<u> <font =
color=3Dblue><span
style=3D'color:blue'>Framework for Emergency Calling in Internet =
Multimedia &lt;<a
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosen-ecrit-framework-0=
0.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosen-ecrit-framework-00=
.txt</a>&gt;</span></font></u>
[3]. The ESRP function is included in the example physical =
architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
2, 3rd full paragraph on Page 6 <br>
The term &quot;master-slave&quot; is considered politically incorrect by =
many governmental
bodies in the <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
I recommend using other terms to describe these =
protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;
fixed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
3, Figure 1 <br>
Needs descriptive text. What do the numbers mean? Boxes also need =
definition,
although they're defined in the Figure 2 description. This is all just
editorial, though. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;the
numbers are defined in the text as the message numbers.&nbsp; I have
significantly reworked this part.&nbsp; Would you look at it again and =
tell me
if you think I&#8217;ve dealt with this =
problems?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bullet
2 (of Figure 2 description) <br>
What is meant by &quot;local domain&quot;? I usually consider my =
&quot;local
domain&quot; to be the domain of my home router, or the domain of my ISP =
(if my
router has no domain). But SIP registration uses a SIP domain, which I =
don't
see as overly &quot;local&quot;, since the registration server could be =
1000
miles away, or more. Could this maybe be worded something like&nbsp;
&quot;...for <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Alice</st1:place></st1:City>'s
UA to register with. Most SIP UAs will register with a server, so it =
will be a
common scenario for UAs that make emergency calls to be registered with =
a
server.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;
fixed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bullet
3 [editorial]: change &quot;initiated&quot; to &quot;initiates&quot; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;I
reworded text here, and &#8220;initiated is =
gone<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Paragraph
after the bullets <br>
&quot;...UA ... has location configured within her UA when her UA
boots...&quot; Is this meant to describe the case where the UA gets =
location
configuration as part of its boot process, such as DHCP or L7 CP? Or =
does it
imply a statically stored location which the UA finds and uses during =
its boot
process? This wasn't clear to me. In general, I think there are 3 basic =
ways
the UA could be configured: (1) a saved manually entered location, (2) =
location
manually entered after it boots, (3) receives a location from the =
network. The
location from the network could be a measured location, or it could be =
based on
knowing the physical locations of network termination points. This =
sentence
doesn't convey that to me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;the
text has been edited heavily.&nbsp; Is it more clear =
now?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Next
paragraph, that starts with &quot;Some time...&quot; <br>
[Editorial]: change &quot;initiated&quot; to &quot;initiates&quot; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;fixed<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
6.3 <br>
2nd paragraph: &quot;XRef&quot; should probably be [phonebcp]? If it is, =
then
the 3rd to last sentence and the last sentence would be redundant. Note =
that
these guidelines for dealing with multiple locations are not in phonebcp =
at
this time. I'll make this comment against =
phonebcp.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;
-pidf-lo-profile discusses the various ways you get multiple location =
things
and what they should be used for. &nbsp;Conveyance adds yet another =
dimension
to that. &nbsp;&#8211;phonebcp needs text to advise. &nbsp;I fixed the
reference here to &#8211;pidf-lo-profile, and added =
&#8220;additional&#8221; to
&#8220;guidance&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3rd
paragraph <br>
[editorial] end of the paragraph &quot;...and ask the caller with.&quot;
doesn't make sense. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;fixed<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
5.4 <br>
[editorial] 2 instances where &quot;can&quot; needs to be &quot;can =
be&quot; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;
fixed<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
5.8 <br>
I recommend changing &quot;...to ensure that phone billing records =
correspond
to valid...&quot; to <br>
&quot;...to ensure that the service addresses in phone billing records
correspond to valid...&quot; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
5.9 <br>
What is CMTS? <br>
Naturally, &quot;(how?)&quot; needs to be resolved. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;defined
as Cable Modem Termination system. &nbsp;We need a discussion on how to =
mark
default locations. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
6 <br>
Paragraph at the end of page 20. <br>
I had questions here as to whether this VSP proxy would be an ESRP, =
based on
the ecrit requirements definition and the usage of that term in this =
document.
I'm hoping it would not be an ESRP.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;It&#8217;s
not, and the adjusted text above should make that =
clear<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
7 <br>
I'm not sure how practical persistent TLS connection are for large VSPs, =
given
that they may have to connect to thousands of =
PSAPs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;I
don&#8217;t think that is a problem. &nbsp;In practical terms in the =
<st1:country-region
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> =
the VSP
will connect to 50 state level ESRPs, which will be next hop for =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
9 <br>
Recommend several references to phonebcp in this section, since phonebcp
specifically discusses where these IDs are placed in the SIP =
message.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;done<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Section
11 <br>
I would slightly expand this section to also mention the disabling of =
calling
features. For example, change the header and add a sentence like =
&quot;The
disabling of other call features, such as call waiting, is also =
discussed in
phonebcp.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&lt;br&gt;done<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Barbara
Stark<br>
BellSouth Science &amp; Technology (a recently acquired part of =
AT&amp;T)</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 04 21:37:50 2007
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To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Gunnar_Hellstr=F6m'?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>,
	"'Ecrit@Ietf. Org'" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Modification proposals for media support
	indraft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 21:37:17 -0500
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-phonebcp-01 will be released before the deadline.  I have made all of =
these
changes, although I created a new "media" section where some of the
suggested text has been placed.  When the draft is announced, please =
have a
look and see if these changes meet your approval.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gunnar Hellstr=F6m [mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se]
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 4:32 PM
> To: Ecrit@Ietf. Org
> Subject: [Ecrit] Modification proposals for media support =
indraft-ietf-
> ecrit-phonebcp
>=20
> I want to propose a few small modifications to
> draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt
>=20
>=20
> 1. Editorial and explanation.
> ----------------------------------
> The last lines in section 2 reads:
>=20
>   =93o  The proxy recognizes the call as an emergency call and routes =
the
>       call using normal SIP routing mechanisms
>    [RFC4504] details Best Current Practice for SIP user agents.  This
>    memo can be considered an addition to it for endpoints.=94
>=20
> A full stop is missing after mechanisms, and it is unusual to start a
> sentence with a reference. I also suggest to include a hint on what is
> found
> in RFC 4504
>=20
> I suggest a slight change to:
>=20
> "  o  The proxy recognizes the call as an emergency call, routes the
>       call using normal SIP routing mechanisms.
>=20
> Best Current Practice for SIP user agents including handling of audio =
and
> real-time text [RFC 4103] media detailed in [RFC4504] SHOULD be =
applied.
> This memo can be considered an addition to it for endpoints."
>=20
> 2. Add a bullet point in the list in section 2.
> ------------------------------------------------
> I also suggest that the sequence of steps should end with media
> establishment rather than just routing
>=20
> Insert as a new bullet point last in the list in section 2:
>=20
>    o  The call is established and common media streams opened.
>=20
>=20
> 3. More real-time text improvements
> ---------------------------------------
> Section 3 starts:
> " Although present PSAPs have only support for voice calls"
>=20
> That is not true. A reasonable part of the population has also support =
for
> real-time text calls. So, the support for real-time text expected from =
IP
> is
> to maintain and extend support rather than fulfilling new =
expectations.
>=20
> I suggest rewording to:
>=20
> " Support for voice calls and real-time text calls placed
> through PSTN facilities or systems connected to the PSTN is found in
> present
> PSAPs. Future PSAPs will however support Internet connectivity and a =
wider
> range of media types and provide higher functionality."
>=20
> 4. Handle unused references.
> ----------------------------
> In the current version, I have observed two unused references.
> [RFC 4103] and [draft-ietf-sipping-toip], both related to the =
real-time
> text
> medium.
>=20
> Revival of reference [rfc 4103] is proposed in 3) above.
>=20
> In order to revive the use of [sipping-toip], I suggest adding this =
line
> between the two paragraphs of section 3:
>=20
> "The expectations for emergency service support for the real-time text
> medium, described in [draft-ietf-sipping-toip], section 7.1 SHOULD be
> fulfilled."
>=20
> ( draft-ietf-sipping-toip-07 is in publication requested state )
>=20
>=20
>=20
> With these small changes I think the phonebcp draft will be a good
> guidance
> for design of user terminals.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Gunnar
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
> Tel: +46708204288
> www.omnitor.se
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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I did most of these.

 

Look at the new text and see whether we need more "applicability" stuff in
the LCP section

 

I took a half hearted attempt to rework the text on relayed location.  Maybe
it's okay, but I'm expecting you still won't like it.

 

I'm not sure what we have agreed to for learning home dialstring.  It's not
DHCP (that is visited).  It's some form of configuration.

 

I think we have been moving down the line that if you have a mobile client,
you can do a point in polygon to figure out if you moved beyond the provided
service boundary.  We will offer advise that this boundary should be simple
(by using approximations when not near an edge, and using a small edge
section when near an edge)

 

I don't want to have another parameter for a declared dead call.  5 min is a
pretty long SWAG.  Got another suggestion?

 

Brian

 

  _____  

From: peter_blatherwick@mitel.com [mailto:peter_blatherwick@mitel.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 9:05 PM
To: ECRIT list
Cc: Brian Rosen; James Polk
Subject: Comments on Phone BCP (Re: [Ecrit] I-D
ACTION:draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt)

 


Hi all, 

I've given the new Phone BCP rev a good read, and have a bunch of comments /
questions.  None negative, just looking to further improve the spec.  I have
also collected a pile of editorial type nits that I don't want to torture
the whole list with, but would be happy to compile and fwd to the authors if
they like (Brian, James just let me know).   

First though, I'm really glad to see LLDP-MED specifically a MUST location
method.  I certainly believe this is a very good thing, especially in
managed enterprise environments.  Also think it has a lot of future
extension potential.   

Comments: 

o Pg 3, Introduction.  The "Phone BCP" also covers aspects of network
infrastructure and the overall Emergency Call Service itself, as required to
support the end device.  I think this needs to be more carefully stated in
the Intro material, to scope the spec.  If the scope cannot be easily
limited, then it might be better to either break up into multiple specs (one
for end device, one for access network, one for proxy ...), or intentionally
pile in all requirements on all elements in the path.  Personally, I hope
not to need to go to either option; think the content is well targeted,
however it is real important to get the right implementation people to take
it seriously.  A specific Scope section might help.  I could try some words
if you like.   

o Pg 3, under "As a quick overview...", 2nd bullet point, also add
LLDP-MED.  (DHCP and L7 mentioned only) 

o Sec 4 general.  This reads as one big mouthful, and as such makes it hard
to follow and determine what applies to what.  Suggest some subsectioning
would be a very helpful (albeit editorial) change. Suggest: Location
Determination Methods, Location Determination Timeliness, Mapping of
Location Information.   

o Sec 4, pg 5, 1st paragraph "Such a method MUST be specified, and every
device MUST support it.", I think it would be good to strengthen this, by
adding words to the effect of: "It is RECOMMENDED that at least one of the
location methods specified here be used, in order to promote improved
interoperability." 

o Sec 4, pg 5, 2nd paragraph, I think it would be helpful to tighten words:
"For all other devices, the device MUST support all of: DHCP [ref], L7
[ref], and LLDP-MED [ref]."  Also break off part of this paragraph about
DHCP to separate paragraph (see next). 

o Sec 4, pg 5, after above, I think all 3 methods should have some statement
of applicability and their general nature.  Notably, paragraph on LLDP-MED
should not characterize it as "an alternative to DHCP" --  it is not really,
though it shares common data format for Civic and Geo LCI.  I can try some
words if others agree that applicability would be a good thing.     

o Sec 4, pg 5, 5th paragraph, "For devices that operate in ...".  This one
is unclear to me.  (Thought I got it on first read ... now not so sure.)   I
*think* it is intended to be about deployments such as ethernet or wireless
boxes behind (say) cable / DSL modem, for example residential or small
office / home office.  (?!?!?)  I think this needs to be clarified, and
state more clearly which end is receiving location from the network
operator, how, and how it is relayed to the actual endpoint through one of
the 3 mechanisms.   

o Sec 4, pg 5, 7th paragraph.  Is "Self Reported" meant to mean end-user
configured, or something else?  It is capitalized as a Formal Term, yet not
defined.  Needs to be clarified.  (actually, a Definitions section might
help overall.) 

o Sec 5, pg 7, 8th paragraph, "Systems that support roaming ...".  I think
it would be helpful to point out "guest use" of the end device as another
important scenario (eg. Alice, visiting Germany; Dieter has an issue and
grabs Alice's phone, dials ... what exactly).  This is orthogonal to visited
network vs home, but  has many of the same requirements in terms of knowing
the local emergency dial string.   

o Sec 5, pg 8, 2nd paragraph.  This does not mention the proposed DHCP
method for supplying local dialstring.  I seem to have lost (or is that LoST
;-) track of where this went, if anywhere.  What's the state of the proposal
to supply dialstring by DHCP?  If it is alive, it would be worth mention
here.   

o Sec 6.2, pg 9, item 13, re compressed codecs.  Also seem to have lost
track on this one.  Personally, I believe compressed codecs should be in the
SDP list, but as last choice.  SHOULD NOT seems too strong, would personally
prefer "MUST be lowest priority".  At any rate, it should say non-compressed
audio codec MUST be supplied, and should name one (likely G.711).  Yeah,
this is probably still contentious... 

o Sec 6.2, pg 9, paragraph after item 13, re silence suppression.  I think
this deserves to be a numbered item, not merely a note.  Silence sup non-use
is the right thing (ie MUST NOT), normative, so not a side-note.   
o Sec 6.2, pg 10, 1st paragraph, " ... mapping is performed whenever the UA
acquires new location information that is outside the bounds of the current
PSAP coverage region ...".  Perhaps I'm missing something obvious here, but,
HOW can the UA determine this?  I would be VERY resistant to burden the end
device (which must be simple and very cost-sensitive) with complex and
possibly open-ended calculations to figure out PSAP bounds.  I think the
trigger to get new LoST PSAP URI info should be much simpler, either time
based, or at every time the underlying location data changes.   

o Sec 6.4, pg 11, 4th paragraph, " ... 5 minutes elapses ... call may be
declared dead ...".   Hmmmm....   Is the 5 minutes an arbitrary SWAG
(Scientific Wild-Ass Guess)?  Would this requirement potentially differ
depending on jurisdiction?  Agree there needs to be some time limit, but
this just seems arbitrary.   

o References, both LLDP and LLDP-MED needs corrections:   
[LLDP] IEEE 802.1AB-2005, Station and Media Access Control Connectivity
Discovery (aka Link Layer Discovery Protocol - LLDP), May 2005.   <-- Note
date, capitalization "AB" and (tm) ... IEEE folks are fussy about these
things.   
[LLDP-MED] ANSI/TIA-1057, Link Layer Discovery Protocol for Media Endpoint
Devices  (aka LLDP-MED), Apr 2006.   

---- 

Hope that helps.   

Peter Blatherwick 


.   




 

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org 

18.10.06 15:50 

        
        To:        i-d-announce@ietf.org 
        cc:        ecrit@ietf.org 
        Subject:        [Ecrit] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt




A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet
Technologies Working Group of the IETF.

                Title                                  : Best Current
Practice for Communications Services in support of Emergency Calling
                Author(s)                 : B. Rosen, J. Polk
                Filename                 : draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt
                Pages                                  : 16
                Date                                  : 2006-10-18
                

  Requesting help in an emergency using a communications device such as
  a telephone or mobile is an accepted practice in most of the world.
  As communications devices increasingly utilize the Internet to
  interconnect and communicate, users will continue to expect to use
  such devices to request help, regardless of whether or not they
  communicate using IP.  The emergency response community will have to
  upgrade their facilities to support the wider range of communications
  services, but cannot be expected to handle wide variation in device
  and service capability.  The IETF has several efforts targeted at
  standardizing various aspects of placing emergency calls.  This memo
  describes best current practice on how devices and services should
  use such standards to reliably make emergency calls


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I did most of =
these.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Look at the new text and see =
whether we
need more &#8220;applicability&#8221; stuff in the LCP =
section<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I took a half hearted attempt to =
rework
the text on relayed location. &nbsp;Maybe it&#8217;s okay, but I&#8217;m
expecting you still won&#8217;t like it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m not sure what we have =
agreed to
for learning home dialstring. &nbsp;It&#8217;s not DHCP (that is
visited).&nbsp; It&#8217;s some form of =
configuration.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we have been moving down =
the line
that if you have a mobile client, you can do a point in polygon to =
figure out
if you moved beyond the provided service boundary. &nbsp;We will offer =
advise
that this boundary should be simple (by using approximations when not =
near an
edge, and using a small edge section when near an =
edge)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don&#8217;t want to have another
parameter for a declared dead call. &nbsp;5 min is a pretty long =
SWAG.&nbsp; Got
another suggestion?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
peter_blatherwick@mitel.com [mailto:peter_blatherwick@mitel.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October =
25, 2006
9:05 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ECRIT list<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Brian Rosen; James =
Polk<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Comments on =
Phone BCP
(Re: [Ecrit] I-D =
ACTION:draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'>Hi all, </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>I've
given the new Phone BCP rev a good read, and have a bunch of comments /
questions. &nbsp;None negative, just looking to further improve the =
spec. &nbsp;I
have also collected a pile of editorial type nits that I don't want to =
torture
the whole list with, but would be happy to compile and fwd to the =
authors if
they like (Brian, James just let me know). &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>First
though, I'm really glad to see LLDP-MED specifically a MUST location =
method. &nbsp;I
certainly believe this is a very good thing, especially in managed =
enterprise
environments. &nbsp;Also think it has a lot of future extension =
potential. &nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Comments:
</span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Pg 3, Introduction. &nbsp;The &quot;Phone BCP&quot; also covers aspects =
of
network infrastructure and the overall Emergency Call Service itself, as
required to support the end device. &nbsp;I think this needs to be more
carefully stated in the Intro material, to scope the spec. &nbsp;If the =
scope
cannot be easily limited, then it might be better to either break up =
into
multiple specs (one for end device, one for access network, one for =
proxy ...),
or intentionally pile in all requirements on all elements in the path. =
&nbsp;Personally,
I hope not to need to go to either option; think the content is well =
targeted,
however it is real important to get the right implementation people to =
take it
seriously. &nbsp;A specific Scope section might help. &nbsp;I could try =
some
words if you like. &nbsp; </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Pg 3, under &quot;As a quick overview...&quot;, 2nd bullet point, also =
add &nbsp;LLDP-MED.
&nbsp;(DHCP and L7 mentioned only)</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 4 general. &nbsp;This reads as one big mouthful, and as such makes =
it hard
to follow and determine what applies to what. &nbsp;Suggest some =
subsectioning
would be a very helpful (albeit editorial) change. Suggest: Location
Determination Methods, Location Determination Timeliness, Mapping of =
Location
Information. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 4, pg 5, 1st paragraph &quot;Such a method MUST be specified, and =
every
device MUST support it.&quot;, I think it would be good to strengthen =
this, by
adding words to the effect of: &quot;It is RECOMMENDED that at least one =
of the
location methods specified here be used, in order to promote improved
interoperability.&quot;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 4, pg 5, 2nd paragraph, I think it would be helpful to tighten =
words:
&quot;For all other devices, the device MUST support all of: DHCP [ref], =
L7
[ref], and LLDP-MED [ref].&quot; &nbsp;Also break off part of this =
paragraph
about DHCP to separate paragraph (see next). </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 4, pg 5, after above, I think all 3 methods should have some =
statement of
applicability and their general nature. &nbsp;Notably, paragraph on =
LLDP-MED
should not characterize it as &quot;an alternative to DHCP&quot; -- =
&nbsp;it is
not really, though it shares common data format for Civic and Geo LCI. =
&nbsp;I
can try some words if others agree that applicability would be a good =
thing. &nbsp;
&nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 4, pg 5, 5th paragraph, &quot;For devices that operate in ...&quot;. =
&nbsp;This
one is unclear to me. &nbsp;(Thought I got it on first read ... now not =
so
sure.) &nbsp; I *think* it is intended to be about deployments such as =
ethernet
or wireless boxes behind (say) cable / DSL modem, for example =
residential or
small office / home office. &nbsp;(?!?!?) &nbsp;I think this needs to be
clarified, and state more clearly which end is receiving location from =
the
network operator, how, and how it is relayed to the actual endpoint =
through one
of the 3 mechanisms. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 4, pg 5, 7th paragraph. &nbsp;Is &quot;Self Reported&quot; meant to =
mean
end-user configured, or something else? &nbsp;It is capitalized as a =
Formal
Term, yet not defined. &nbsp;Needs to be clarified. &nbsp;(actually, a
Definitions section might help overall.) </span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 5, pg 7, 8th paragraph, &quot;Systems that support roaming =
...&quot;. &nbsp;I
think it would be helpful to point out &quot;guest use&quot; of the end =
device
as another important scenario (eg. <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Alice</st1:City>,
visiting <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">Germany</st1:country-region>; =
Dieter has
an issue and grabs <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Alice</st1:place></st1:City>'s
phone, dials ... what exactly). &nbsp;This is orthogonal to visited =
network vs
home, but &nbsp;has many of the same requirements in terms of knowing =
the local
emergency dial string. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 5, pg 8, 2nd paragraph. &nbsp;This does not mention the proposed =
DHCP
method for supplying local dialstring. &nbsp;I seem to have lost (or is =
that
LoST ;-) track of where this went, if anywhere. &nbsp;What's the state =
of the
proposal to supply dialstring by DHCP? &nbsp;If it is alive, it would be =
worth
mention here. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 6.2, pg 9, item 13, re compressed codecs. &nbsp;Also seem to have =
lost
track on this one. &nbsp;Personally, I believe compressed codecs should =
be in
the SDP list, but as last choice. &nbsp;SHOULD NOT seems too strong, =
would
personally prefer &quot;MUST be lowest priority&quot;. &nbsp;At any =
rate, it
should say non-compressed audio codec MUST be supplied, and should name =
one
(likely G.711). &nbsp;Yeah, this is probably still contentious... =
</span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 6.2, pg 9, paragraph after item 13, re silence suppression. &nbsp;I =
think
this deserves to be a numbered item, not merely a note. &nbsp;Silence =
sup
non-use is the right thing (ie MUST NOT), normative, so not a side-note. =
&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 6.2, pg 10, 1st paragraph, &quot; ... mapping is performed whenever =
the UA
acquires new location information that is outside the bounds of the =
current
PSAP coverage region ...&quot;. &nbsp;Perhaps I'm missing something =
obvious
here, but, HOW can the UA determine this? &nbsp;I would be VERY =
resistant to
burden the end device (which must be simple and very cost-sensitive) =
with
complex and possibly open-ended calculations to figure out PSAP bounds. =
&nbsp;I
think the trigger to get new LoST PSAP URI info should be much simpler, =
either
time based, or at every time the underlying location data changes. =
&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
Sec 6.4, pg 11, 4th paragraph, &quot; ... 5 minutes elapses ... call may =
be
declared dead ...&quot;. &nbsp; Hmmmm.... &nbsp; Is the 5 minutes an =
arbitrary
SWAG (Scientific Wild-Ass Guess)? &nbsp;Would this requirement =
potentially
differ depending on jurisdiction? &nbsp;Agree there needs to be some =
time
limit, but this just seems arbitrary. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>o
References, both LLDP and LLDP-MED needs corrections: =
&nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>[LLDP]
</span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>IEEE =
802.1AB-2005,
Station and Media Access Control Connectivity Discovery (aka Link Layer
Discovery Protocol - LLDP), May 2005. &nbsp;</span></font><font size=3D2
face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'> &lt;--
Note date, capitalization &quot;AB&quot; and (tm) ... IEEE folks are =
fussy
about these things. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>[LLDP-MED]
</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>ANSI/TIA-1057, Link
Layer Discovery Protocol for Media Endpoint Devices &nbsp;(aka =
LLDP-MED), Apr
2006. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>----
</span></font><br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Hope
that helps. &nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>Peter
Blatherwick</span></font> <br>
<br>
<br>
<font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif'>.
&nbsp;</span></font> <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

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  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D1 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:
  =
7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif;font-weight:bold'>Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</=
span></font></b>
  <o:p></o:p></p>
  <p><font size=3D1 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
  sans-serif'>18.10.06 15:50</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Arial'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </span></font><br>
  <font size=3D1 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>&nbsp;
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;i-d-announce@ietf.org</span></font>
  <br>
  <font size=3D1 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>&nbsp;
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;ecrit@ietf.org</span></font>
  <br>
  <font size=3D1 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:sans-serif'>&nbsp;
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[Ecrit] I-D
  ACTION:draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>A New Internet-Draft is available from the =
on-line
Internet-Drafts <br>
directories.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with =
Internet
Technologies Working Group of the IETF.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Title &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: Best Current Practice for Communications =
Services
in support of Emergency Calling<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Author(s) &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : B. Rosen, J. Polk<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Filename &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : =
draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Pages &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 16<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Date &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 2006-10-18<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
<br>
&nbsp; Requesting help in an emergency using a communications device =
such as<br>
&nbsp; a telephone or mobile is an accepted practice in most of the =
world.<br>
&nbsp; As communications devices increasingly utilize the Internet =
to<br>
&nbsp; interconnect and communicate, users will continue to expect to =
use<br>
&nbsp; such devices to request help, regardless of whether or not =
they<br>
&nbsp; communicate using IP. &nbsp;The emergency response community will =
have
to<br>
&nbsp; upgrade their facilities to support the wider range of =
communications<br>
&nbsp; services, but cannot be expected to handle wide variation in =
device<br>
&nbsp; and service capability. &nbsp;The IETF has several efforts =
targeted at<br>
&nbsp; standardizing various aspects of placing emergency calls. =
&nbsp;This
memo<br>
&nbsp; describes best current practice on how devices and services =
should<br>
&nbsp; use such standards to reliably make emergency calls<br>
<br>
<br>
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<br>
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt<br>
<br>
To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to =
<br>
i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of =
<br>
the message. <br>
You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce =
<br>
to change your subscription settings.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the <br>
username &quot;anonymous&quot; and a password of your e-mail address. =
After <br>
logging in, type &quot;cd internet-drafts&quot; and then <br>
&quot;get draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt&quot;.<br>
<br>
A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in<br>
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html <br>
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.<br>
<br>
Send a message to:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
mailserv@ietf.org.<br>
In the body type:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;FILE
/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt&quot;.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
NOTE: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The mail =
server
at ietf.org can return the document in<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MIME-encoded =
form by
using the &quot;mpack&quot; utility. &nbsp;To use this<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; feature, insert =
the
command &quot;ENCODING mime&quot; before the &quot;FILE&quot;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; command. =
&nbsp;To
decode the response(s), you will need &quot;munpack&quot; or<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a MIME-compliant =
mail
reader. &nbsp;Different MIME-compliant mail readers<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; exhibit =
different
behavior, especially when dealing with<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&quot;multipart&quot;
MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; up into multiple =
messages),
so check your local documentation on<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; how to =
manipulate these
messages.<br>
<br>
Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader<br>
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the<br>
Internet-Draft.<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3Dsans-serif><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:sans-serif'>ftp://anonymous@ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draf=
t-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-00.txt</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
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Ecrit mailing list<br>
Ecrit@ietf.org</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 08:16:20 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
To: "'ECRIT list'" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 08:15:51 -0500
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I have submitted an update to -framework.  Until it appears in the archives,
you can obtain a copy at:

http://www.brianrosen.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-01.txt
http://www.brianrosen.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-01.html
http://www.brianrosen.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-01.xml





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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 05 08:20:04 2007
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I have submitted an update to -phonebcp.  Until it appears in the
archives, you can obtain a copy at:

http://www.brianrosen.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp
-01.txt
http://www.brianrosen.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp
-01.html
http://www.brianrosen.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp
-01.xml

We have resolved comments received.  We added text covering parameters
on the Geolocation header.  We added text explicitly covering text
applicable to proxy servers and B2BUAs.  Additional security
considerations text was added.  Additional references to required
behavior were added.=20

Brian

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Requirements for Emergency Context  Resolution with Internet Technologies
	Author(s)	: H. Schulzrinne, R. Marshall
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13.txt
	Pages		: 32
	Date		: 2007-3-5
	
This document defines terminology and enumerates requirements for the
   context resolution of emergency calls placed by the public using
   voice-over-IP (VoIP) and general Internet multimedia systems, where
   Internet protocols are used end-to-end.

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: A Uniform Resource Name (URN) for Services
	Author(s)	: H. Schulzrinne
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn-06.txt
	Pages		: 15
	Date		: 2007-3-6
	
The content of many communication services depends on the context,
   such as the user's location.  We describe a 'service' URN that allows
   to identify context-dependent services that can be resolved in a
   distributed manner.

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To: Roger Marshall <RMarshall@telecomsys.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13 as a result of AD
	comments
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Let me also add that the changes were made based on a review by Jon.
Thanks Jon for the review comments and for the quick interaction to 
resolve them.

Ciao
Hannes

Roger Marshall wrote:
> I've updated the requirements draft, which has been submitted, and will
> get posted as draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13 soon.  
>
> RE: Change log to document changes from:
> draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12 to upcoming version -13.
> Date: 3/02/07
> By: R. Marshall
>
>
> C1. Delete following requirement Ma18, since it is not clear how it is
> different than Ma15.
>
> Ma18.  Alternate mapping sources: The mapping protocol MUST implement a
> mechanism that allows for the retrieval of mapping information from
> different sources.
>
> Motivation: This provides the possibility of having available
> alternative sources of mapping information when the normal source  is
> unavailable or unreachable.
>
>
> C2. Renumber Ma19 to Ma18 per above.
>
>
> C3. Change last paragraph to section 1, based on Jon's comment:
> I expected the last paragraph in Section 1 to have an additional 
>   
>>> sentence saying something to the effect that the latter use 
>>> (displaying location information at the PSAP) is orthogonal to the 
>>> mapping protocol problem and the scope of this document.
>>>       
>
> Change from:
>
> Location is required for two separate purposes, first, to support the
> routing of the emergency call to the appropriate PSAP and second, to
> display the caller's location to the call taker to help in dispatching
> emergency assistance to the appropriate location.
>
> Change to: (appended paragraph)
>
> Location is required for two separate purposes, first, to support the
> routing of the emergency call to the appropriate PSAP and second, to
> display the caller's location to the call taker to help in dispatching
> emergency assistance to the appropriate location.
>
> This latter use, the display of location information to the PSAP, is
> orthogonal to the mapping protocol, and is outside the scope of this
> document.
>
>
> C4. Change term "Internet Attachment Provider", based on comment below:
>
>   
>>> 3.2 - The term "Internet Attachment Provider" is not a common one, 
>>> and doesn't seem to be distinguished from the more common concept of 
>>> an access network. I would suggest that "access network" at least be 
>>> provided as a synonym in the definition.
>>>       
>> My suggestion would be to switch to "Internet Access Provider", as 
>> that seems closer to common usage. Plus, 'attachment' is probably not 
>> a good fit for, say, 'unattached' network connections, such as
>>     
> wireless..
>
> Change from: "Internet Attachment Provider" to: "Internet Access
> Provider" 
> (throughout, including diagram).
>
>
> C5. Change definition of ESRP from a B2BUA, to something more general,
> per the folowing AD review comment.
>
>   
>>> 3.4 - I'm not sure what the need is to suggest that the ESRP function
>>>       
>
>   
>>> might be performed by a B2BUA. At a high level, I suppose I see the 
>>> mapping client function as one that could be performed by a number of
>>>       
>
>   
>>> entities, including entities that instantiate the SIP proxy role and 
>>> the SIP user agent client role. I think language to that effect would
>>>       
>
>   
>>> be preferable to suggesting that there is some motivation for pairing
>>>       
>
>   
>>> the mapping client function with a B2BUA.
>>>       
>
> Change from:
>
>    Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP): An ESRP is an emergency call
>       routing support entity that invokes the location-to-PSAP URI
>       mapping, to return either the URI for the appropriate PSAP, or the
>       URI for another ESRP.  (In a SIP system, the ESRP would typically
>       be a SIP proxy, but may also be a back-to-back user agent
>       (B2BUA)).
>
> Change to:
>
>    Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP): An ESRP is an emergency call
>       routing support entity that invokes the location-to-PSAP URI
>       mapping function, to return an appropriate PSAP URI, or the
>       URI for another ESRP.  Client mapping requests could also be 
>       performed by a number of entities, including entities that 
>       instantiate the SIP proxy role and the SIP user agent client role.
>
>
> C6. Fix broken sentence, (per comment below):
>
>   
>>> (Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific 
>>> (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) contains the address
>>>       
>
>   
>>> of the PSAP or other emergency service.
>>>
>>> after the im: citation, you probably want the words: "identifier 
>>> which"
>>>
>>>       
> Yes, "identifier which" must be added.
>
> Change from:
>
>    (Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific
>       (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) contains the
>       address of the PSAP or other emergency service.  It depends on the
>       specific signaling or data transport protocol used to reach the
>       emergency service.
>
> Change to:
>
>    (Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific
>       (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) identifier which
> contains the
>       address of the PSAP or other emergency service.  It depends on the
>       specific signaling or data transport protocol used to reach the
>       emergency service.
>
>
> C7. Change Lo5 Heading (per comment below):
>
>   
>>> In Section 6, why is Lo5 called "Validation resolution"? The 
>>> description of the requirement doesn't seem to relate to validation 
>>> or resolution, as far as I can tell. "Additional Information" or 
>>> something might be a better name for this requirement.
>>>       
>> I agree that the heading is not helpful. I'd suggest calling it
>>
>> Information about location data used for mapping
>>
>>
>>     
> I agree that changing the heading would help to make it clearer.
>
> Change Lo5 heading from: "Validation resolution" 
>
> Change Lo5 heading to: "Information about location data used for
> mapping"
>
>
> C8. 
>
>   
>>> In Section 8, Ma11 uses the seemingly innocuous name "URI properties"
>>> to provide requirements that seem to contradict Ma8. If the mapping 
>>> protocol is going to return multiple PSAP URIs as described in Ma11, 
>>> there should be a story stronger than "local policy" to meet the 
>>> requirement of Ma8. You might want to find a better name for Ma11 
>>> than "URI properties", too.
>>>       
>
> [RM comment - Whereas Ma8 is a SHOULD, i.e., that it is optimal for only
> one URI be returned, yet it allows for cases where more than one may be
> returned, Ma11 is a MUST, i.e., must be able to return extra info to
> help pick one URI over the other - in the case where there are multiple
> URIs returned.  I see no contradiction between the two reqs.]
>
> No change made to either Ma8 or Ma11.
>
>
> C9. Change to Ma15 Heading, change from, "Resilience to failure" to,
> "Resilience to mapping server failure" (per the comments below).
>
> [above comment con't]
>   
>>> Also in 8, how is Ma15 different from Ma18?
>>>       
>> I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly, but Ma15 talks 
>> about reliability of the mapping protocol, while Ma8 talks about 
>> returning mappings to achieve reliability. To make this clearer, the 
>> title in Ma15 should be changed to
>>
>> Resilience to mapping server failure
>>
>>     
> I also believe that the problem would be fixed by changing the heading
> of Ma15 to "Resilience to mapping server failure".
>
>
> C10. Delete requirement Ma9 (per Henning's/Hannes' comments below):
>
>   
>> By the way, we've decided to not do Ma9, based on additional 
>> discussion, so I'd suggest dropping it. Not that anybody is going to 
>> do a point-by-point comparison of LoST to the requirements document...
>>
>>     
> I would also suggest to delete Ma9.
>
> Requirement Ma9 deleted.
> Requirements Ma10-Ma18 now renamed to Ma9-Ma17.
>
> /end.
>
> Roger Marshall  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 6:12 AM
>> To: Peterson, Jon
>> Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu; Roger Marshall; 
>> Marc Linsner
>> Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt
>>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> Ma15 vs. Ma18: Let's delete Ma18. I cannot figure out what the 
>> difference is to Ma15.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>> Peterson, Jon wrote:
>>     
>>>>>> Also in 8, how is Ma15 different from Ma18?
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>             
>>>>> I'm not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly, but
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> Ma15 talks
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> about reliability of the mapping protocol, while Ma8 talks about 
>>>>> returning mappings to achieve reliability. To make this
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> clearer, the
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>>>> title in Ma15 should be changed to
>>>>>
>>>>> Resilience to mapping server failure
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>> I also believe that the problem would be fixed by changing the 
>>>> heading of Ma15 to "Resilience to mapping server failure".
>>>>
>>>> Ma8 is fine as it is and fits perfectly what we did in the protocol 
>>>> design.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> For the record, I was asking how Ma15 is different from
>>>       
>> -Ma18-, not -Ma8-.
>>     
>>> - J
>>>   
>>>       
>>     
>
>
> The information contained in this message may be privileged and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, or responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review, forwarding, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication or any attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please so notify the sender immediately, and delete it and all attachments from your computer and network.
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This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol
	Author(s)	: T. Hardie, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-05.txt
	Pages		: 71
	Date		: 2007-3-7
	
This document describes an XML-based protocol for mapping service
   identifiers and geodetic or civic location information to service
   contact URIs.  In particular, it can be used to determine the
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	Title		: Framework for Emergency Calling in Internet Multimedia
	Author(s)	: B. Rosen, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-framework-01.txt
	Pages		: 32
	Date		: 2007-3-8
	
Summoning emergency help by the public is a core feature of telephone
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Best Current Practice for Communications Services in support of Emergency Calling
	Author(s)	: B. Rosen, J. Polk
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-01.txt
	Pages		: 21
	Date		: 2007-3-8
	
Requesting help in an emergency using a communications device such as
   a telephone or mobile is an accepted practice in most of the world.
   As communications devices increasingly utilize the Internet to
   interconnect and communicate, users will continue to expect to use
   such devices to request help, regardless of whether or not they
   communicate using IP.  The emergency response community will have to
   upgrade their facilities to support the wider range of communications
   services, but cannot be expected to handle wide variation in device
   and service capability.  The IETF has several efforts targeted at
   standardizing various aspects of placing emergency calls.  This memo
   describes best current practice on how devices and services should
   use such standards to reliably make emergency calls

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 14:28:13 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] ECRIT Meeting Scheduling
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Hi all,

here is the current (and hopefully) final status of the ECRIT meeting 
scheduling:

* Official ECRIT WG Meeting

THURSDAY, March 22, 2007
1510-1610 Afternoon Session II
Congress I

* 2nd Part of the SIPPING slot on FRIDAY, Congress II, March 23, 2007, 
namely 1030-1130, will be used for ECRIT as well


* ECRIT / IEEE Information Sharing Workshop

Monday, 19th March, 11:30 - 13:00
Room: TBD

You need to register for this meeting since we will organize food for 
you. I will post a separate mail.

Ciao
Hannes


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 09 17:13:54 2007
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Hi all,

we would like to inform you about the progress of the preparation of the 
2nd SDO Emergency Services Workshop hosted by the U.S. Department of 
Transportation (DOT). The workshop will be held April 10, 11 & 12, 2007, 
from 8:30 am – 6:00 pm., in the Jefferson Building of the Library of 
Congress, located at 101 Independence Avenue SE in Washington, D.C.

Please find updated information at this webpage:
http://www.emergency-services-coordination.info/2007/

Best regards,

Jenny Hansen
Marc Linsner
Stephen McCann
Christian Militeau
Atle Monrad
Henning Schulzrinne
Hannes Tschofenig
Harry Worstell

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 11 16:23:38 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] LoST 05
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LoST 05 is now in the archives, with the following changes based on  
ECRIT list discussion:

* Added the terms 'Mapping', 'LoST Client and Server', 'Service  
Boundary', and 'Validation' to the terminology section
* Extended the description in Section 3 "Overview of Protocol Usage".
* Fixed a bug in the example of Section 4 "LoST servers and Their  
Resolution"
* Removed the 'version' attribute of Section 5.1, from the Relax NG  
schema and from the examples.
* Modified the schema to prevent empty <path> elements.
* Updated text in Section 5.5. "Defining the Service Region with the  
<serviceBoundary> Element",
"5.6. Service Boundaries by Reference: the <serviceBoundaryReference>  
Element",
"7.3.4. Service Boundary", and
"7.4.2. Civic Address Validation: the <locationValidation> Element"
* Fixed a bug in the examples with respect to the srsName
* Updated Section 12. "Errors, Warnings, and Redirects"
* Changed the default value for the recursion attribute from 'true'  
to 'false".

* Added Jonathan's intro paragraph.
* Took out the optional <path> for responses.
* Added NO-CACHE and NO-EXPIRATION for expires attribute with  
corresponding text in Section 5.2.

* Modified the description in Section 6 "Path of a Request"
* Modified the description in Section 7.3.3. "Recursion and Iteration"

* Update to location profiles in  Section 11.1. "Location Profile  
Usage" and in
Section 11.2. "Two Dimensional Geodetic Profile"

There is still a need for a bit of clean-up in the examples, which  
didn't quite get done in the rush to meet the I-D deadline. We'll  
also add an error for an invalid/unknown SRS. Otherwise, we believe  
this to reflect list comments, so it would be particularly useful if  
those that have provided comments take a look at their main concerns  
and make sure that these have been addressed.

Henning
(on behalf of the LoST author team)

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This doc has a normative reference to

    [13]  Reed, C. and M. Thomson, "GML 3.1.1 PIDF-LO Shape Application
          Schema for use by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)",
          Candidate OpenGIS Implementation Specification , December  
2006.

Can anyone give a bit of an update of how that is preceding and at  
what point we might be expect it to be an OpenGIS specification?

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 11 18:47:26 2007
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To: ECRIT <ecrit@ietf.org>
From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 15:46:53 -0700
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Few small comments ..

If a phone makes an anonymous call to the police emergency number, is  
that handled about the same as any other anonymous call?

One small thing - I note that it says the UA should insert an 3325 P- 
Asserted-Identity. I really doubt this would ever be of much use and  
don't think it should be recommended unless it has value. I do see  
the value of the service provider putting one in and passing to PSAP  
but that is different.

I think you should require all the PSAP equipment to support multipart.

In the support for IM stuff, it's pretty clear to me how SIP pager  
mode fits in, but it is really unclear to me how a phone doing xmpp  
would end up connected with the PSAP such that they were speaking to  
same operator as voice call. I'm sure it could be done but seem like  
a lot more specification is needed that what is here. I guess the  
obvious approach would be using SIP to set up an XMPP media session  
using something like the comedia stuff in SIP.






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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 12 07:51:07 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-01
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See below

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cullen Jennings [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 6:47 PM
> To: ECRIT
> Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-01
> 
> 
> Few small comments ..
> 
> If a phone makes an anonymous call to the police emergency number, is
> that handled about the same as any other anonymous call?
In most jurisdictions, it is a legal requirement for the carrier to provide
location and telephone number, so the answer is no.  We need some text I
think.

> 
> One small thing - I note that it says the UA should insert an 3325 P-
> Asserted-Identity. I really doubt this would ever be of much use and
> don't think it should be recommended unless it has value. I do see
> the value of the service provider putting one in and passing to PSAP
> but that is different.
Right, it's the carrier that should do this.  I'll change the text

> 
> I think you should require all the PSAP equipment to support multipart.
Yes, it must

> 
> In the support for IM stuff, it's pretty clear to me how SIP pager
> mode fits in, but it is really unclear to me how a phone doing xmpp
> would end up connected with the PSAP such that they were speaking to
> same operator as voice call. I'm sure it could be done but seem like
> a lot more specification is needed that what is here. I guess the
> obvious approach would be using SIP to set up an XMPP media session
> using something like the comedia stuff in SIP.
Yeah, but I don't want to invent something like that.  I don't think it's a
practical problem, because I think if the "call" is multimedia (more than
one media) it will be signaled with SIP, and XMPP would only be used in an
IM-only circumstance.  I'll clarify the text.  If someone comes along and
defines SIP establishment of XMPP, and we see some deployment for multimedia
calls, then maybe we can revisit.

Brian


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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] LoST 05
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From: "Reese, Theresa E" <treese@telcordia.com>
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LoST Author Team:

I want to take this opportunity to thank you for all your hard work on
the LoST Internet Draft.  I have reviewed lost-05 in detail and find it
to be quite complete.  I just have a few additional minor comments for
your consideration.


1.	Editorial comments: =20

Section 3, first paragraph under <findService> and <findServiceResponse>

Change the first sentence to read:  "This message pattern allows for the
retrieval of contact URIs based on location information together with a
service identifier."

Section 3, first paragraph under <getServiceBoundary> and
<getServiceBoundaryResponse>

Change the first sentence to read: "This message pattern supports a
query for a service boundary.  The details can be found in Section 8."

Section 5.6, last paragraph, last line:  remove the extra "the".

Section 11.1, item 3, first sentence:  Change "profiles of derived" to
"profiles if derived".

Section 13, second paragraph:  Add a period at the end of the sentence.


2.	Section 6, third paragraph states, "If a query is answered
iteratively, the querier includes all servers."

The only "querier" in an iterative example is the original client.  The
authoritative (responding) server will only identify itself in this
scenario, so the <path> element should contain only the <via>
corresponding to the responding server.  Perhaps this could be clarified
in the text.

3.	Section 7.3.3, second paragraph states, "In iterative mode, the
server contacted returns a redirection response indicating the next
server to be queried."

Must a redirection response always be provided?  Wouldn't that only be
necessary if the first server could not respond to the request?

4.	Figure 7, Figure 9, Figure 17

Based on Section 5.1, hasn't the "version" attribute been removed from
the Data Source information in <findServiceResponse> messages? =20

5. Section 12, first paragraph states, "This document does not define
warnings." =20

This sentence seems to conflict with the last sentence in the same
paragraph which states, "Unless otherwise noted, all elements below can
be either an error or a warning, depending on whether a default
response, such as a mapping, is included."  What is intent of the
statement that says that this document does not define warnings?  Is the
idea that warnings are not explicitly defined AT THIS TIME (i.e., that
they will be addressed in the future), or that warnings should not be
used at all.  I think warnings could be very useful.  The last sentence
of Section 12.2 seems to imply the former.  (I noticed that there was no
pattern provided in the Relax NG Schema in Section 14 for "Warning".)


Thank you again for all your hard work and your patience in addressing
my comments and those of the others on the ECRIT list.

Terry Reese

-----Original Message-----
From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu]=20
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 4:23 PM
To: ECRIT
Subject: [Ecrit] LoST 05

LoST 05 is now in the archives, with the following changes based on =20
ECRIT list discussion:

* Added the terms 'Mapping', 'LoST Client and Server', 'Service =20
Boundary', and 'Validation' to the terminology section
* Extended the description in Section 3 "Overview of Protocol Usage".
* Fixed a bug in the example of Section 4 "LoST servers and Their =20
Resolution"
* Removed the 'version' attribute of Section 5.1, from the Relax NG =20
schema and from the examples.
* Modified the schema to prevent empty <path> elements.
* Updated text in Section 5.5. "Defining the Service Region with the =20
<serviceBoundary> Element",
"5.6. Service Boundaries by Reference: the <serviceBoundaryReference> =20
Element",
"7.3.4. Service Boundary", and
"7.4.2. Civic Address Validation: the <locationValidation> Element"
* Fixed a bug in the examples with respect to the srsName
* Updated Section 12. "Errors, Warnings, and Redirects"
* Changed the default value for the recursion attribute from 'true' =20
to 'false".

* Added Jonathan's intro paragraph.
* Took out the optional <path> for responses.
* Added NO-CACHE and NO-EXPIRATION for expires attribute with =20
corresponding text in Section 5.2.

* Modified the description in Section 6 "Path of a Request"
* Modified the description in Section 7.3.3. "Recursion and Iteration"

* Update to location profiles in  Section 11.1. "Location Profile =20
Usage" and in
Section 11.2. "Two Dimensional Geodetic Profile"

There is still a need for a bit of clean-up in the examples, which =20
didn't quite get done in the rush to meet the I-D deadline. We'll =20
also add an error for an invalid/unknown SRS. Otherwise, we believe =20
this to reflect list comments, so it would be particularly useful if =20
those that have provided comments take a look at their main concerns =20
and make sure that these have been addressed.

Henning
(on behalf of the LoST author team)

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Theresa,

thanks again for your careful review. I will be editing -06 based on  
these comments; please see inline.

On Mar 12, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:

>
>
> 1.	Editorial comments:
>
> Section 3, first paragraph under <findService> and  
> <findServiceResponse>
>
> Change the first sentence to read:  "This message pattern allows  
> for the
> retrieval of contact URIs based on location information together  
> with a
> service identifier."

Reworded.

>
> Section 3, first paragraph under <getServiceBoundary> and
> <getServiceBoundaryResponse>
>
> Change the first sentence to read: "This message pattern supports a
> query for a service boundary.  The details can be found in Section 8."

Fixed.

>
> Section 5.6, last paragraph, last line:  remove the extra "the".
>
> Section 11.1, item 3, first sentence:  Change "profiles of derived" to
> "profiles if derived".
>
> Section 13, second paragraph:  Add a period at the end of the  
> sentence.

Fixed.

Henning

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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #2 (iterative/recursive)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:36:08 -0400
To: "Reese, Theresa E" <treese@telcordia.com>
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>
> 2.	Section 6, third paragraph states, "If a query is answered
> iteratively, the querier includes all servers."
>
> The only "querier" in an iterative example is the original client.   
> The
> authoritative (responding) server will only identify itself in this
> scenario, so the <path> element should contain only the <via>
> corresponding to the responding server.  Perhaps this could be  
> clarified
> in the text.

The idea was that the query would contain all the servers the client  
has contacted so far. This allows a mixture of iterative and  
recursive resolution, if desired, without losing the loop protection  
mechanism. For example, if client C has contact X and Y so far, where  
X has redirected C to Y and Y to Z, C would send a message to Z:

<path>
   <via>X</via>
   <via>Y</via>
</path>

I don't know if this is helpful or necessary, but it seems at least  
harmless.

Henning

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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #3
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On Mar 12, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:


>
> 3.	Section 7.3.3, second paragraph states, "In iterative mode, the
> server contacted returns a redirection response indicating the next
> server to be queried."
>
> Must a redirection response always be provided?  Wouldn't that only be
> necessary if the first server could not respond to the request?
>

Indeed. Added

if the server contacted connot provide an answer itself



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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:55:56 -0400
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>
> 4.	Figure 7, Figure 9, Figure 17
>
> Based on Section 5.1, hasn't the "version" attribute been removed from
> the Data Source information in <findServiceResponse> messages?

This is a bug; fixed.

>
> 5. Section 12, first paragraph states, "This document does not define
> warnings."
>
> This sentence seems to conflict with the last sentence in the same
> paragraph which states, "Unless otherwise noted, all elements below  
> can
> be either an error or a warning, depending on whether a default
> response, such as a mapping, is included."  What is intent of the
> statement that says that this document does not define warnings?   
> Is the
> idea that warnings are not explicitly defined AT THIS TIME (i.e., that
> they will be addressed in the future), or that warnings should not be
> used at all.  I think warnings could be very useful.  The last  
> sentence
> of Section 12.2 seems to imply the former.  (I noticed that there  
> was no
> pattern provided in the Relax NG Schema in Section 14 for "Warning".)
>

This is an incomplete discussion. We had started to discuss the idea  
you quote, namely that the same condition can lead to both an error  
or a warning, depending on the circumstances. However, this does not  
appear to be the case for any of the errors defined in the document,  
i.e., for none of the errors listed would it be possible to return a  
(partial) answer, as far as I can tell.

Maybe my co-authors have a different perspective.

Henning


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From: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 23:14:27 -0400
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On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:55 PM, Henning Schulzrinne wrote:
>> 5. Section 12, first paragraph states, "This document does not define
>> warnings."
>>
>> This sentence seems to conflict with the last sentence in the same
>> paragraph which states, "Unless otherwise noted, all elements  
>> below can
>> be either an error or a warning, depending on whether a default
>> response, such as a mapping, is included."  What is intent of the
>> statement that says that this document does not define warnings?   
>> Is the
>> idea that warnings are not explicitly defined AT THIS TIME (i.e.,  
>> that
>> they will be addressed in the future), or that warnings should not be
>> used at all.  I think warnings could be very useful.  The last  
>> sentence
>> of Section 12.2 seems to imply the former.  (I noticed that there  
>> was no
>> pattern provided in the Relax NG Schema in Section 14 for "Warning".)
>>
>
> This is an incomplete discussion. We had started to discuss the  
> idea you quote, namely that the same condition can lead to both an  
> error or a warning, depending on the circumstances. However, this  
> does not appear to be the case for any of the errors defined in the  
> document, i.e., for none of the errors listed would it be possible  
> to return a (partial) answer, as far as I can tell.
>
> Maybe my co-authors have a different perspective.

Apparently we seem to be circling on this issue.  I think the case  
could be made that a server that for some reason could not get to its  
RDBMS data store might want to return a default configured answer and  
an <internalError> warning, because the policy of the server is to  
respond on a best effort basis.  Similarly, a server operator may  
want to issue a <badRequest> warning and return some sort of default  
answer for queries that just cannot be parsed -- again as part of a  
best effort basis.  Some server operators may not want to do that.   
I'm not saying either way is right or wrong.  It's a matter policy,  
and it's one I'd feel more comfortable putting in the hands of the  
operators and not making in a protocol.  The important thing from a  
protocol perspective is that a client acts upon an answer with  
warnings in the same exact way that it would act upon the answer if  
no warnings were given.  Warnings are strictly for postmortem analysis.

Incidentally, <warnings> is defined in the Relax NG, page 43 of the  
draft.  It is part of the commonResponsePattern.

-andy

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At 11:14 PM -0400 3/12/07, Andrew Newton wrote:
>Apparently we seem to be circling on this issue.  I think the case could be made that a server that for some reason could not get to its RDBMS data store might want to return a default configured answer and an <internalError> warning, because the policy of the server is to respond on a best effort basis.  Similarly, a server operator may want to issue a <badRequest> warning and return some sort of default answer for queries that just cannot be parsed -- again as part of a best effort basis.  Some server operators may not want to do that.  
>I'm not saying either way is right or wrong.  It's a matter policy, and it's one I'd feel more comfortable putting in the hands of the operators and not making in a protocol.  The important thing from a protocol perspective is that a client acts upon an answer with warnings in the same exact way that it would act upon the answer if no warnings were given.  Warnings are strictly for postmortem analysis.
>
>Incidentally, <warnings> is defined in the Relax NG, page 43 of the draft.  It is part of the commonResponsePattern.

I think this remains a tension we identified a long time ago; for most protocols,
a clear error when the server cannot process a request is a useful thing.  If
your life depends on it, *some* answer, however derived, is better than
nothing.  You don't care if the answer is old, the backup's backup, or what--it
gives you a better chance of reaching a call taker than nothing.

In the ECRIT version of LoST, in other words, we throw out protocol
purity in order to allow the server to be as robust as possible in the general
aim.  The warnings Andy identified would be there to tag the requests as somehow
sub-optimal, without refusing to provide some answer.  With a bit more experience,
we're likely to have a better shot at identifying what warnings will be useful.
In the meantime, I would personally suggest returning the answer you have,
without identifying its shortcomings explicitly at the moment (possibly
manipulating the expiry if it is a transient error).

				Ted

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From: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:52:28 -0400
To: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
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On Mar 13, 2007, at 12:10 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:
> In the ECRIT version of LoST, in other words, we throw out protocol
> purity in order to allow the server to be as robust as possible in  
> the general
> aim.  The warnings Andy identified would be there to tag the  
> requests as somehow
> sub-optimal, without refusing to provide some answer.  With a bit  
> more experience,
> we're likely to have a better shot at identifying what warnings  
> will be useful.
> In the meantime, I would personally suggest returning the answer  
> you have,
> without identifying its shortcomings explicitly at the moment  
> (possibly
> manipulating the expiry if it is a transient error).

Are you suggesting we get rid of the warnings?  Just trying to  
understand your last sentence.

We might want to put something in the draft, perhaps in an appendix,  
about best-effort answers.  Using the value NO-CACHE in the expiry  
attribute is the proper way of manipulating the expiry in this case,  
I believe.

-andy

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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:42:58 -0400
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From: "Reese, Theresa E" <treese@telcordia.com>
To: "Andrew Newton" <andy@hxr.us>, "Ted Hardie" <hardie@qualcomm.com>
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LoST Authors:

I believe warnings will be useful in situations where, for example, a
client sends an iterative <findService> query that includes a request
for location validation, and the server, while capable of returning
routing information, does not itself do location validation.  In this
instance, only the routing information would be included in the
response, but is would be useful to indicate via a warning that
validation information is not available.  This may trigger the client to
either send future queries requesting recursive service (with the idea
being that the server will have an arrangement with another server that
performs location validation), or to omit requests for validation from
future queries sent to the "routing only" server. =20

I would like to see some additional work done to include warnings in a
future update to LoST.

Terry Reese

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Newton [mailto:andy@hxr.us]=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:52 AM
To: Ted Hardie
Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; Reese, Theresa E; ECRIT
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5


On Mar 13, 2007, at 12:10 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:
> In the ECRIT version of LoST, in other words, we throw out protocol
> purity in order to allow the server to be as robust as possible in =20
> the general
> aim.  The warnings Andy identified would be there to tag the =20
> requests as somehow
> sub-optimal, without refusing to provide some answer.  With a bit =20
> more experience,
> we're likely to have a better shot at identifying what warnings =20
> will be useful.
> In the meantime, I would personally suggest returning the answer =20
> you have,
> without identifying its shortcomings explicitly at the moment =20
> (possibly
> manipulating the expiry if it is a transient error).

Are you suggesting we get rid of the warnings?  Just trying to =20
understand your last sentence.

We might want to put something in the draft, perhaps in an appendix, =20
about best-effort answers.  Using the value NO-CACHE in the expiry =20
attribute is the proper way of manipulating the expiry in this case, =20
I believe.

-andy

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From: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:59:55 -0400
To: "Reese, Theresa E" <treese@telcordia.com>
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On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:

> I believe warnings will be useful in situations where, for example, a
> client sends an iterative <findService> query that includes a request
> for location validation, and the server, while capable of returning
> routing information, does not itself do location validation.  In this
> instance, only the routing information would be included in the
> response, but is would be useful to indicate via a warning that
> validation information is not available.  This may trigger the  
> client to
> either send future queries requesting recursive service (with the idea
> being that the server will have an arrangement with another server  
> that
> performs location validation), or to omit requests for validation from
> future queries sent to the "routing only" server.

Theresa, the behavior you have specified seems to violate the rule  
that I called out.  Specifically, that warnings DO NOT change the  
behavior of clients.  Or were you suggesting that a human was the one  
observing the warning and changing recursive flag?

> I would like to see some additional work done to include warnings in a
> future update to LoST.

The schema does allow the addition of warning from other XML  
namespaces without the need for specifically revising the LoST  
protocol to accommodate them.

-andy
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	0.54.2

<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -kht=
ml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:=
42 AM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:</DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newlin=
e"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"=
><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">I b=
elieve warnings will be useful in situations where, for example, a</FONT>=
</P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica=
" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">client sends an iterative &=
lt;findService&gt; query that includes a request</FONT></P> <P style=3D"m=
argin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=
=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">for location validation, and the server, whil=
e capable of returning</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0=
.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica=
">routing information, does not itself do location validation.<SPAN class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>In this</FONT></P> <P style=3D"marg=
in: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D=
"font: 12.0px Helvetica">instance, only the routing information would be =
included in the</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><=
FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">respo=
nse, but is would be useful to indicate via a warning that</FONT></P> <P =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D=
"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">validation information is not availa=
ble.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>This may trigger the =
client to</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT f=
ace=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">either send =
future queries requesting recursive service (with the idea</FONT></P> <P =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D=
"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">being that the server will have an a=
rrangement with another server that</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.=
0px Helvetica">performs location validation), or to omit requests for val=
idation from</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FON=
T face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">future q=
ueries sent to the "routing only" server. <SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-=
space">=A0</SPAN></FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-p=
laceholder"></DIV><DIV>Theresa, the behavior you have specified seems to =
violate the rule that I called out.=A0 Specifically, that warnings DO NOT =
change the behavior of clients.=A0 Or were you suggesting that a human wa=
s the one observing the warning and changing recursive flag?</DIV><BR><BL=
OCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">I would li=
ke to see some additional work done to include warnings in a</FONT></P> <=
P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=
=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">future update to LoST.</FONT></P> =
</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>The schema does allow the addition of warning =
from other XML namespaces without the need for specifically revising the =
LoST protocol to=A0accommodate them.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-p=
laceholder"></DIV><DIV>-andy</DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From: "Reese, Theresa E" <treese@telcordia.com>
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Andy -

=20

I was thinking that the return of the warning could be logged (like the
return of an error indication), and that this could result in a human
potentially

modifying some settings.  Even if the modification didn't take place, I
was envisioning that the logging would.  It seems odd to me that if a
client makes an explicit request (e.g., for location validation), and
the server cannot accommodate it and so does not return the requested
information (even though it can and does return routing information),
that this would not be flagged as some kind of abnormal situation.

=20

While the schema may allow for warnings from other XML namespaces, the
text in the document is currently ambiguous about whether they are
supported or not.

=20

Terry

=20

________________________________

From: Andrew Newton [mailto:andy@hxr.us]=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:00 AM
To: Reese, Theresa E
Cc: Ted Hardie; Henning Schulzrinne; ECRIT
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5

=20

=20

On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:





I believe warnings will be useful in situations where, for example, a

client sends an iterative <findService> query that includes a request

for location validation, and the server, while capable of returning

routing information, does not itself do location validation.  In this

instance, only the routing information would be included in the

response, but is would be useful to indicate via a warning that

validation information is not available.  This may trigger the client to

either send future queries requesting recursive service (with the idea

being that the server will have an arrangement with another server that

performs location validation), or to omit requests for validation from

future queries sent to the "routing only" server. =20

=20

Theresa, the behavior you have specified seems to violate the rule that
I called out.  Specifically, that warnings DO NOT change the behavior of
clients.  Or were you suggesting that a human was the one observing the
warning and changing recursive flag?





I would like to see some additional work done to include warnings in a

future update to LoST.

=20

The schema does allow the addition of warning from other XML namespaces
without the need for specifically revising the LoST protocol to
accommodate them.

=20

-andy


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andy =
&#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I was thinking that the return of =
the
warning could be logged (like the return of an error indication), and =
that this
could result in a human potentially<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>modifying some settings.&nbsp; Even =
if the
modification didn&#8217;t take place, I was envisioning that the logging =
would.&nbsp;
It seems odd to me that if a client makes an explicit request (e.g., for =
location
validation), and the server cannot accommodate it and so does not return =
the
requested information (even though it can and does return routing =
information),
that this would not be flagged as some kind of abnormal =
situation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>While the schema may allow for =
warnings
from other XML namespaces, the text in the document is currently =
ambiguous
about whether they are supported or not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Terry<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Andrew Newton
[mailto:andy@hxr.us] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 13, =
2007
11:00 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Reese, Theresa E<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Ted Hardie; Henning
Schulzrinne; ECRIT<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Ecrit] LoST =
05 #4,
#5</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Reese, Theresa E =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>I believe warnings will =
be useful
in situations where, for example, a</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>client sends an =
iterative
&lt;findService&gt; query that includes a =
request</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>for location validation, =
and the
server, while capable of returning</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>routing information, =
does not
itself do location validation.<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp; =
</span>In
this</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>instance, only the =
routing
information would be included in the</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>response, but is would =
be useful
to indicate via a warning that</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>validation information =
is not
available.<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp; </span>This may =
trigger the
client to</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>either send future =
queries
requesting recursive service (with the idea</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>being that the server =
will have
an arrangement with another server that</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>performs location =
validation), or
to omit requests for validation from</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>future queries sent to =
the
&quot;routing only&quot; server. <span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Theresa, the behavior you have specified seems to violate the =
rule that
I called out.&nbsp; Specifically, that warnings DO NOT change the =
behavior of
clients.&nbsp; Or were you suggesting that a human was the one observing =
the
warning and changing recursive flag?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>I would like to see some
additional work done to include warnings in =
a</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>future update to =
LoST.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The schema does allow the addition of warning from other XML =
namespaces
without the need for specifically revising the LoST protocol
to&nbsp;accommodate them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>-andy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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From: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:46:47 -0400
To: "Reese, Theresa E" <treese@telcordia.com>
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On Mar 13, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:

> Andy =96
>
>
>
> I was thinking that the return of the warning could be logged (like =20=

> the return of an error indication), and that this could result in a =20=

> human potentially
>
> modifying some settings.  Even if the modification didn=92t take =20
> place, I was envisioning that the logging would.  It seems odd to =20
> me that if a client makes an explicit request (e.g., for location =20
> validation), and the server cannot accommodate it and so does not =20
> return the requested information (even though it can and does =20
> return routing information), that this would not be flagged as some =20=

> kind of abnormal situation.

Ok.  So you were thinking along the same lines as I was.

I believe Henning has stated in the past that such logging could take =20=

place because the validation information would not be present and =20
therefore no explicit warning is needed.  However, an explicit =20
warning does provide a place to put appropriate descriptive text if =20
that is desirable.  I see no harm in adding an =20
<validationUnavailable> element as a compromise to this issue.  =20
Henning?  Anybody else?

>  While the schema may allow for warnings from other XML namespaces, =20=

> the text in the document is currently ambiguous about whether they =20
> are supported or not.
Agreed.  Once we come to resolution, the text needs to be better =20
about what is going on here.

-andy=

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Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:30:50 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
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At 9:52 AM -0400 3/13/07, Andrew Newton wrote:
>On Mar 13, 2007, at 12:10 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:
>>In the ECRIT version of LoST, in other words, we throw out protocol
>>purity in order to allow the server to be as robust as possible in the general
>>aim.  The warnings Andy identified would be there to tag the requests as somehow
>>sub-optimal, without refusing to provide some answer.  With a bit more experience,
>>we're likely to have a better shot at identifying what warnings will be useful.
>>In the meantime, I would personally suggest returning the answer you have,
>>without identifying its shortcomings explicitly at the moment (possibly
>>manipulating the expiry if it is a transient error).
>
>Are you suggesting we get rid of the warnings?  Just trying to understand your last sentence.

Sorry, it was late and my cold medicine was kicking in.  I do not want to get
rid of the warnings.  I was trying to say that someone deploying now can just
return the answer it has, without worrying about providing a warning, if
they are not sure what warning to provide.  They might, as you suggest below,
use NO-CACHE to make sure that the answer is expired promptly.

					ted



>We might want to put something in the draft, perhaps in an appendix, about best-effort answers.  Using the value NO-CACHE in the expiry attribute is the proper way of manipulating the expiry in this case, I believe.
>
>-andy


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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:42:35 -0400
To: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
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I have no objection to providing additional diagnostic information, =20
as long as it is optional for this particular case (no validation). =20
In other words, a client should be able to ignore the warning and =20
still function just fine.

On Mar 13, 2007, at 11:46 AM, Andrew Newton wrote:

>
> On Mar 13, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Reese, Theresa E wrote:
>
>> Andy =96
>>
>>
>>
>> I was thinking that the return of the warning could be logged =20
>> (like the return of an error indication), and that this could =20
>> result in a human potentially
>>
>> modifying some settings.  Even if the modification didn=92t take =20
>> place, I was envisioning that the logging would.  It seems odd to =20
>> me that if a client makes an explicit request (e.g., for location =20
>> validation), and the server cannot accommodate it and so does not =20
>> return the requested information (even though it can and does =20
>> return routing information), that this would not be flagged as =20
>> some kind of abnormal situation.
>
> Ok.  So you were thinking along the same lines as I was.
>
> I believe Henning has stated in the past that such logging could =20
> take place because the validation information would not be present =20
> and therefore no explicit warning is needed.  However, an explicit =20
> warning does provide a place to put appropriate descriptive text if =20=

> that is desirable.  I see no harm in adding an =20
> <validationUnavailable> element as a compromise to this issue.  =20
> Henning?  Anybody else?
>
>>  While the schema may allow for warnings from other XML =20
>> namespaces, the text in the document is currently ambiguous about =20
>> whether they are supported or not.
> Agreed.  Once we come to resolution, the text needs to be better =20
> about what is going on here.
>
> -andy


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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] LoST 05 #4, #5
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:46:35 -0400
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I generally agree with the objective, but will point out practical  
limitations. It is not clear to me what useful answer can be returned  
by a local resolver, say, unless you return some global emergency  
calling center. In some cases, such as authoritative servers that are  
responsible only for a state, such a default answer is reasonable,  
since they wouldn't have been contacted unless somebody else believed  
the location to be in that state, say.

In any event, making the Warning optional and indicating its purpose  
for logging, while explaining the behavior should allow sufficient  
implementation flexibility for server writers without burdening  
clients with numerous additional code paths and special cases.

On Mar 13, 2007, at 12:10 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:

> At 11:14 PM -0400 3/12/07, Andrew Newton wrote:
>> Apparently we seem to be circling on this issue.  I think the case  
>> could be made that a server that for some reason could not get to  
>> its RDBMS data store might want to return a default configured  
>> answer and an <internalError> warning, because the policy of the  
>> server is to respond on a best effort basis.  Similarly, a server  
>> operator may want to issue a <badRequest> warning and return some  
>> sort of default answer for queries that just cannot be parsed --  
>> again as part of a best effort basis.  Some server operators may  
>> not want to do that.
>> I'm not saying either way is right or wrong.  It's a matter  
>> policy, and it's one I'd feel more comfortable putting in the  
>> hands of the operators and not making in a protocol.  The  
>> important thing from a protocol perspective is that a client acts  
>> upon an answer with warnings in the same exact way that it would  
>> act upon the answer if no warnings were given.  Warnings are  
>> strictly for postmortem analysis.
>>
>> Incidentally, <warnings> is defined in the Relax NG, page 43 of  
>> the draft.  It is part of the commonResponsePattern.
>
> I think this remains a tension we identified a long time ago; for  
> most protocols,
> a clear error when the server cannot process a request is a useful  
> thing.  If
> your life depends on it, *some* answer, however derived, is better  
> than
> nothing.  You don't care if the answer is old, the backup's backup,  
> or what--it
> gives you a better chance of reaching a call taker than nothing.
>
> In the ECRIT version of LoST, in other words, we throw out protocol
> purity in order to allow the server to be as robust as possible in  
> the general
> aim.  The warnings Andy identified would be there to tag the  
> requests as somehow
> sub-optimal, without refusing to provide some answer.  With a bit  
> more experience,
> we're likely to have a better shot at identifying what warnings  
> will be useful.
> In the meantime, I would personally suggest returning the answer  
> you have,
> without identifying its shortcomings explicitly at the moment  
> (possibly
> manipulating the expiry if it is a transient error).
>
> 				Ted


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Am 14.03.2007 um 00:29 schrieb Dawson, Martin:
>
> Secondly, one of the things that emergency services don't concern
> themselves with in responding to callers is whether you really are the
> individual they claim to be. Anonymous emergency calling via public
> payphones, SIMless mobiles, and any other point a caller can lay their
> hands on a device is an accepted feature of the service.

just noting SIMless 911 seems to be not universally accepted -

Switzerland explicitely denies SIMless emergency calls

in Austria recommended procedure for mountaineers is to remove the  
SIM before the hike to get better coverage for 140 (mountain rescue)

downside of this is - Vienna police gets a surge of SIMless 112 calls  
every saturday as stolen mobiles are tested for functionality on the  
flea markets by calling 112

more relevant (possibly to ECRIT towards PSAP contact publishing  
requirements) is - Switzerland publishes *routing numbers* as PSAP  
destinations which are meaningful only in a national interconnect  
scenario

-Michael





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=20
We have had similar discussion in ETSI many Times, I can confirm that
Currently, Two Countries mandate by law that SIM-less Emergency Calls
Shall be allowed. In Germany these calls are still traceable though the
Mobile may not be uniquely identifiable, as a dummy CLI is allocated to
the call, the actual Mobile Equipment may also be traced as the IMEI may
be sent over the air. In Austria I am not aware of the solution.

In the UK, Eire, Switzerland, and increasingly in other EU countries;
SIM-Less Emergency Calls are forbidden as the Mobile traceability is
mandated by law. In a number of countries like France and Portugal that
did allow SIM-less Emergency calls though not by mandate the laws and
systems now (or soon will) forbid them. The reason for this change is
that the Emergency services were flooded with Anonymous calls from
second hand traders of Mobile handsets.=20

Regards,

Ray Forbes
Ericsson Limited
BU Networks (CV/ETL/BBC/D)
Telephone: +44 (0) 24 7656 3106
Mobile: +44 (0) 771 851 1361
Email: Raymond.Forbes@Ericsson.com

Registered Office: Unit 4, Midleton Gate, Guildford Business Park,
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-----Original Message-----
From: Haberler Michael [mailto:ml1234@mah.priv.at]=20
Sent: 14 March 2007 06:25
To: Dawson, Martin
Cc: GEOPRIV WG; ecrit@ietf.org
Subject: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal


Am 14.03.2007 um 00:29 schrieb Dawson, Martin:
>
> Secondly, one of the things that emergency services don't concern=20
> themselves with in responding to callers is whether you really are the

> individual they claim to be. Anonymous emergency calling via public=20
> payphones, SIMless mobiles, and any other point a caller can lay their

> hands on a device is an accepted feature of the service.

just noting SIMless 911 seems to be not universally accepted -

Switzerland explicitely denies SIMless emergency calls

in Austria recommended procedure for mountaineers is to remove the SIM
before the hike to get better coverage for 140 (mountain rescue)

downside of this is - Vienna police gets a surge of SIMless 112 calls
every saturday as stolen mobiles are tested for functionality on the
flea markets by calling 112

more relevant (possibly to ECRIT towards PSAP contact publishing
requirements) is - Switzerland publishes *routing numbers* as PSAP
destinations which are meaningful only in a national interconnect
scenario

-Michael





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Hi Raymond,

one issue that is quite important to me is whether regulators will demand

* "unauthenticated network access" for emergency calls
This means that an emergency caller can attach to a network even though 
it does not have credentials for this network. For example, someone 
might just use Ericsson enterprise network (or my private WLAN DSL home 
network) for an emergency call.

* authenticated (but unauthorized) emergency calls where some form of 
authentication of the emergency caller needs to take place.

None of these two aspect directly correspond the concept of SIMless 
emergency calls since the credentials for the two mechanisms are 
typically different.
So, it remains open what it means to have SIM-less emergency calls on 
the Internet, from a technical and from a regulatory side. It might well 
be that the trend for a more restrictive user identification makes the 
entire subject irrelevant.

Ciao
Hannes

Raymond Forbes (CV/ETL) wrote:
>  
> We have had similar discussion in ETSI many Times, I can confirm that
> Currently, Two Countries mandate by law that SIM-less Emergency Calls
> Shall be allowed. In Germany these calls are still traceable though the
> Mobile may not be uniquely identifiable, as a dummy CLI is allocated to
> the call, the actual Mobile Equipment may also be traced as the IMEI may
> be sent over the air. In Austria I am not aware of the solution.
>
> In the UK, Eire, Switzerland, and increasingly in other EU countries;
> SIM-Less Emergency Calls are forbidden as the Mobile traceability is
> mandated by law. In a number of countries like France and Portugal that
> did allow SIM-less Emergency calls though not by mandate the laws and
> systems now (or soon will) forbid them. The reason for this change is
> that the Emergency services were flooded with Anonymous calls from
> second hand traders of Mobile handsets. 
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray Forbes
> Ericsson Limited
> BU Networks (CV/ETL/BBC/D)
> Telephone: +44 (0) 24 7656 3106
> Mobile: +44 (0) 771 851 1361
> Email: Raymond.Forbes@Ericsson.com
>
> Registered Office: Unit 4, Midleton Gate, Guildford Business Park,
> Guildford, Surrey, GU2 8SG.  Registered Number in England and Wales:
> 942215
>
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for the
> addressee(s). Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution
> is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in
> error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and
> delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you. 
>
> Ericsson Limited does not enter into contracts or contractual
> obligations via electronic mail, unless otherwise agreed in writing
> between the parties concerned.
>
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption,
> interruption, unauthorised amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only
> send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any
> such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
> consequences thereof. 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haberler Michael [mailto:ml1234@mah.priv.at] 
> Sent: 14 March 2007 06:25
> To: Dawson, Martin
> Cc: GEOPRIV WG; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
>
>
> Am 14.03.2007 um 00:29 schrieb Dawson, Martin:
>   
>> Secondly, one of the things that emergency services don't concern 
>> themselves with in responding to callers is whether you really are the
>>     
>
>   
>> individual they claim to be. Anonymous emergency calling via public 
>> payphones, SIMless mobiles, and any other point a caller can lay their
>>     
>
>   
>> hands on a device is an accepted feature of the service.
>>     
>
> just noting SIMless 911 seems to be not universally accepted -
>
> Switzerland explicitely denies SIMless emergency calls
>
> in Austria recommended procedure for mountaineers is to remove the SIM
> before the hike to get better coverage for 140 (mountain rescue)
>
> downside of this is - Vienna police gets a surge of SIMless 112 calls
> every saturday as stolen mobiles are tested for functionality on the
> flea markets by calling 112
>
> more relevant (possibly to ECRIT towards PSAP contact publishing
> requirements) is - Switzerland publishes *routing numbers* as PSAP
> destinations which are meaningful only in a national interconnect
> scenario
>
> -Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 14 05:19:40 2007
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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:21:17 +0100
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From: "Raymond Forbes \(CV/ETL\)" <raymond.forbes@ericsson.com>
To: "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
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=20
Hannes,

Currently By analogy with the GSM Regulation, The German and Austrian
Regulators Demand Unauthenticated access on Publicly Licensed networks.
The Private Corporate Networks (CSP IP access; in the IP context) are
not subject to this regulation.=20

This will be confusing to the IETF as they do not differentiate between
CSP networks and ISP networks. In their relationship with 3GPP the IETF
considered 3GPP network as Private Enterprise networks. Some Private
Enterprise Networks are nationally Licensed to Sell services to the
Public (T-Mobil-D1 or Vodafone-D2), and subject to regulation [they must
provide unauthenticated access, but authorise its use with IMEIs and
Dummy CLIs; analogous to P_Asserted_Identies in Validated in Proxies],
others Only provide corporate access (Siemens or Ericsson) and have a
closed community and less or no regulation in this context).

Germany and Austria are the only countries that mandate Unauthenticated
Access you may be closer to what their governments are thinking about IP
access

In Other Countries the regulation may be exactly the Opposite un UK,
Eire, Private Enterprise Networks are nationally Licensed to Sell
services to the Public (T-Mobile-UK or Vodafone-UK), and subject to
regulation they must forbid unauthenticated access.

You do not need to consider the case of Corporate CSP access, But
Publicly Incensed Enterprise Networks.

In All cases calls have to be authorised calls to allow traceability.

I am not sure that this helps except to say the technology need to
provide all cases, except unauthorised.

Currently the only Authentication Provide on VoIP Emergency calls is to
the ISP/CSP access using Radius or IPSec.

Regards,

Ray Forbes
Ericsson Limited
BU Networks (CV/ETL/BBC/D)
Telephone: +44 (0) 24 7656 3106
Mobile: +44 (0) 771 851 1361
Email: Raymond.Forbes@Ericsson.com

Registered Office: Unit 4, Midleton Gate, Guildford Business Park,
Guildford, Surrey, GU2 8SG.  Registered Number in England and Wales:
942215

This communication is confidential and intended solely for the
addressee(s). Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution
is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in
error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and
delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.=20

Ericsson Limited does not enter into contracts or contractual
obligations via electronic mail, unless otherwise agreed in writing
between the parties concerned.

E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption,
interruption, unauthorised amendment, tampering and viruses, and we only
send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any
such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
consequences thereof.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
Sent: 14 March 2007 08:55
To: Raymond Forbes (CV/ETL)
Cc: Dawson, Martin; GEOPRIV WG; ecrit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal

Hi Raymond,

one issue that is quite important to me is whether regulators will
demand

* "unauthenticated network access" for emergency calls This means that
an emergency caller can attach to a network even though it does not have
credentials for this network. For example, someone might just use
Ericsson enterprise network (or my private WLAN DSL home
network) for an emergency call.

* authenticated (but unauthorized) emergency calls where some form of
authentication of the emergency caller needs to take place.

None of these two aspect directly correspond the concept of SIMless
emergency calls since the credentials for the two mechanisms are
typically different.
So, it remains open what it means to have SIM-less emergency calls on
the Internet, from a technical and from a regulatory side. It might well
be that the trend for a more restrictive user identification makes the
entire subject irrelevant.

Ciao
Hannes

Raymond Forbes (CV/ETL) wrote:
> =20
> We have had similar discussion in ETSI many Times, I can confirm that
> Currently, Two Countries mandate by law that SIM-less Emergency Calls
> Shall be allowed. In Germany these calls are still traceable though
the
> Mobile may not be uniquely identifiable, as a dummy CLI is allocated
to
> the call, the actual Mobile Equipment may also be traced as the IMEI
may
> be sent over the air. In Austria I am not aware of the solution.
>
> In the UK, Eire, Switzerland, and increasingly in other EU countries;
> SIM-Less Emergency Calls are forbidden as the Mobile traceability is
> mandated by law. In a number of countries like France and Portugal
that
> did allow SIM-less Emergency calls though not by mandate the laws and
> systems now (or soon will) forbid them. The reason for this change is
> that the Emergency services were flooded with Anonymous calls from
> second hand traders of Mobile handsets.=20
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray Forbes
> Ericsson Limited
> BU Networks (CV/ETL/BBC/D)
> Telephone: +44 (0) 24 7656 3106
> Mobile: +44 (0) 771 851 1361
> Email: Raymond.Forbes@Ericsson.com
>
> Registered Office: Unit 4, Midleton Gate, Guildford Business Park,
> Guildford, Surrey, GU2 8SG.  Registered Number in England and Wales:
> 942215
>
> This communication is confidential and intended solely for the
> addressee(s). Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution
> is prohibited. If you believe this message has been sent to you in
> error, please notify the sender by replying to this transmission and
> delete the message without disclosing it. Thank you.=20
>
> Ericsson Limited does not enter into contracts or contractual
> obligations via electronic mail, unless otherwise agreed in writing
> between the parties concerned.
>
> E-mail including attachments is susceptible to data corruption,
> interruption, unauthorised amendment, tampering and viruses, and we
only
> send and receive e-mails on the basis that we are not liable for any
> such corruption, interception, amendment, tampering or viruses or any
> consequences thereof.=20
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haberler Michael [mailto:ml1234@mah.priv.at]=20
> Sent: 14 March 2007 06:25
> To: Dawson, Martin
> Cc: GEOPRIV WG; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
>
>
> Am 14.03.2007 um 00:29 schrieb Dawson, Martin:
>  =20
>> Secondly, one of the things that emergency services don't concern=20
>> themselves with in responding to callers is whether you really are
the
>>    =20
>
>  =20
>> individual they claim to be. Anonymous emergency calling via public=20
>> payphones, SIMless mobiles, and any other point a caller can lay
their
>>    =20
>
>  =20
>> hands on a device is an accepted feature of the service.
>>    =20
>
> just noting SIMless 911 seems to be not universally accepted -
>
> Switzerland explicitely denies SIMless emergency calls
>
> in Austria recommended procedure for mountaineers is to remove the SIM
> before the hike to get better coverage for 140 (mountain rescue)
>
> downside of this is - Vienna police gets a surge of SIMless 112 calls
> every saturday as stolen mobiles are tested for functionality on the
> flea markets by calling 112
>
> more relevant (possibly to ECRIT towards PSAP contact publishing
> requirements) is - Switzerland publishes *routing numbers* as PSAP
> destinations which are meaningful only in a national interconnect
> scenario
>
> -Michael
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>  =20


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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Re: [Geopriv] RE: Strawman Proposal
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 08:28:42 -0400
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>
> In the UK, Eire, Switzerland, and increasingly in other EU countries;
> SIM-Less Emergency Calls are forbidden as the Mobile traceability is
> mandated by law. In a number of countries like France and Portugal  
> that
> did allow SIM-less Emergency calls though not by mandate the laws and
> systems now (or soon will) forbid them. The reason for this change is
> that the Emergency services were flooded with Anonymous calls from
> second hand traders of Mobile handsets.

I don't know what kind of location conveyance is used there (the  
equivalent of Phase II wireless seems less common in Europe), but it  
is pretty clear that reliable location delivery would help very  
little. It would be interesting to see where most of today's crank  
calls are coming from; if they are from pay phones on strip malls,  
location reporting isn't exactly going to help with that problem, as  
the location information for these is not in doubt.

I agree with Hannes that we need an overall threat model, not just a  
threat model for conveying location. After all, I suspect that NENA  
and PSAP don't really care whether bogus calls are prevented by some  
fancy crypto math or some truth inducer in handsets that makes it  
impossible for callers to lie when dialing 911.

Like I said before, I'm not opposed to investigating the role of  
signing location information, but I believe that it is being oversold.

Henning

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>
> My point, however, is that the actual identity of the caller isn't the
> gating factor. Indeed, the question of whether you're using your phone
> or someone else's doesn't come up.

The whole point of disallowing SIMless emergency calls is that

- it makes it impossible to find and fine the nuisance caller

- the caller knows that and acts accordingly

I believe that traceable identity largely addresses the individual  
nuisance call problem. (Unlike for SIMless phones, where the SIM is  
tied to having a contract and paying, it is much easier to imagine no- 
fee, verified SIP accounts that only do emergency calling.)

Just like location signing, this does not have to be perfect to be  
useful. Most everyone seems to agree that not all calls will have  
signed locations, so, with any assurance scheme, PSAPs will have to  
deal with unauthenticated and unsigned calls, using the  
prioritization mechanisms Brian keeps talking about.

The advantage of verified identity is that it works today, without a  
new infrastructure or a new national CA. Thus, I see it as an  
important part of the tool kit that will lower the deployment hurdles  
and will allow us to avoid having to build a perfect location signing  
system.

Thus, I can imagine four levels of calls:

(1) assured identity and assured fine-grained location

(2) assured identity and unsigned location -> unlikely to be spoofed;  
equivalent to a large fraction of today's wireless calls

(3) no traceable identity and signed location -> equivalent to a  
payphone or SIMless wireless call today, i.e., treat with caution

(4) no identity assurance, no location signing -> suspicious, handle  
with care and drop during overload

Here, identity can be either a L2/L3 identity or a VSP identity; it  
really doesn't much matter, although VSP identity is the one that's  
currently available without extra mechanism.

The "bot net" out of area attack vector is a different issue and  
should be discussed separately.

Henning



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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 05:42:50 2007
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Hi all,

I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.

Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the work done 
by NENA?

Consider the following SDOs, as an example
- 3GPP
- 3GPP2
- Wimax
- Wifi Alliance
- DSL Forum
- ETSI TISPAN
- CableLabs

Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being developed in 
these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work going to be 
used on the Internet?

Ciao
Hannes


_______________________________________________
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From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS" <mdolly@att.com>
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ATIS=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
Subject: [Ecrit] NENA

Hi all,

I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.

Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the work done=20
by NENA?

Consider the following SDOs, as an example
- 3GPP
- 3GPP2
- Wimax
- Wifi Alliance
- DSL Forum
- ETSI TISPAN
- CableLabs

Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being developed in

these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work going to be

used on the Internet?

Ciao
Hannes


_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 06:36:46 2007
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From: "Tschofenig, Hannes" <hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com>
To: "DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS" <mdolly@att.com>,
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Hi Martin,=20

what do you mean by "ATIS"?

You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should have =
included ATIS in the list of SDOs?=20

Ciao
Hannes

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]=20
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
> An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> ATIS=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
>=20
> Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the=20
> work done=20
> by NENA?
>=20
> Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> - 3GPP
> - 3GPP2
> - Wimax
> - Wifi Alliance
> - DSL Forum
> - ETSI TISPAN
> - CableLabs
>=20
> Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being=20
> developed in
>=20
> these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work=20
> going to be
>=20
> used on the Internet?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20

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From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS" <mdolly@att.com>
To: "Tschofenig, Hannes" <hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com>,
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Yes=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:31 AM
To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA

Hi Martin,=20

what do you mean by "ATIS"?

You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should have =
included ATIS in the list of SDOs?=20

Ciao
Hannes

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]=20
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
> An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> ATIS=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
>=20
> Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the=20
> work done=20
> by NENA?
>=20
> Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> - 3GPP
> - 3GPP2
> - Wimax
> - Wifi Alliance
> - DSL Forum
> - ETSI TISPAN
> - CableLabs
>=20
> Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being=20
> developed in
>=20
> these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work=20
> going to be
>=20
> used on the Internet?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20

_______________________________________________
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Hi Martin,=20

Thanks for the quick response.=20

I am trying to figure out what the impact to the Internet is if many =
SDOs develop their own specifications for emergency services without =
considering the NENA work and I am particularly referring to the SDOs =
that potentially impact real networks.=20

More comments below:=20

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@andrew.com]=20
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 12:47
> An: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes=20
> Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Betreff: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) meant that ATIS=20
> works with NENA specifications. NENA is not an accredited SDO=20
> - in the same sense, for example, that ATIS is accredited and=20
> able to publish American National Standards. Of course, that=20
> doesn't prevent NENA from publishing referencable documents.=20
> The E2 interface specification used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a=20
> NENA document and, as ever, the i2 architecture specification=20
> is a NENA document.
>=20
> I don't think there's anything prescriptive about how the=20
> work of NENA interacts with other SDOs. I think it's best=20
> understood in terms of the general role of NENA - which is to=20
> provide a national consensus view on how the elements of the=20
> emergency service fit together. This ends up covering=20
> everything from devices through access and core networks, and=20
> into the emergency network elements - the routers, call=20
> centers, and ALI and ANI databases.
>=20
> This is particularly important in an environment such as the=20
> US which is extremely devolved with multiple independent=20
> parties operating at every level and every function. Without=20
> a body like NENA it would all deteriorate into chaos -=20
> despite how it seems to some, that's not what it is now. :)
>=20
> It's good to look at a case study.
>=20
> NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA=20
> J-STD-036 specification for phase 2 wireless which=20
> subsequently formed the deployment model for how the FCC=20
> mandate for wireless E-9-1-1 should be satisfied. This=20
> consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2.

>From the last SDO workshop I got the impression that the 3GPP2 actually =
had nothing expect for a few high-level requirements. Since a lot of the =
3GPP2 work is taken from 3GPP it might well be possible that they also =
recycle the emergency services work.=20

Maybe they have developed a solution already. Maybe you can point to the =
relevant documents.=20

 There are even=20
> parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification called NA-ESRK and=20
> NA-ESRD (the NA part stands for North American) - though they=20
> do actually have generic utility.

But the NENA work is more than just these parameters.=20

>=20
> A typical chain of influence would go along the lines that US=20
> carriers need to meet some regulatory requirement for which=20
> definitions originating or influenced by NENA form the model=20
> for deployment. The carriers need their vendors to support=20
> the functionality associated with the model. Both the vendors=20
> and the carriers participate in the SDOs governing the=20
> specifications for the network elements involved and=20
> subsequently influence what those specifications look like.=20
> To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications as=20
> an extended phenotype of the significance and influence of=20
> the US market and the role of NENA in that market.

But it is not really good if the NENA work does not appear in the =
standardization work of other SDOs.=20

>=20
> Does that make sense? I'm not aware that there are any strict=20
> definitions for the relationship between NENA and other SDOs.
It makes sense but to me it looks like the recipe for a non-working =
global emergency service solution since there are too many players =
involved that want to develop their own story.=20


Ciao
Hannes


> Cheers,
> Martin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM
> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> Hi Martin,=20
>=20
> what do you mean by "ATIS"?
>=20
> You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should=20
> have included ATIS in the list of SDOs?=20
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]=20
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > ATIS=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> > To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > Hi all,
> >=20
> > I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
> >=20
> > Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the=20
> > work done=20
> > by NENA?
> >=20
> > Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> > - 3GPP
> > - 3GPP2
> > - Wimax
> > - Wifi Alliance
> > - DSL Forum
> > - ETSI TISPAN
> > - CableLabs
> >=20
> > Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being=20
> > developed in
> >=20
> > these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work=20
> > going to be
> >=20
> > used on the Internet?
> >=20
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ecrit mailing list
> > Ecrit@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Geopriv mailing list
> > Geopriv@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may
> contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20
> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
> immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
> this email is prohibited.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> [mf2]
>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 08:14:00 2007
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Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <Barbara.Stark@BellSouth.com>
To: "Tschofenig, Hannes" <hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com>,
	"Dawson, Martin" <Martin.Dawson@andrew.com>,
	"Dolly, Martin C \(Attlabs\)" <mdolly@att.com>,
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Errors-To: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org

DSL Forum is also using the NENA documents to determine requirements for =
network elements and CPE.
Barbara=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:58 AM
To: Dawson, Martin; Dolly, Martin C (Attlabs); Hannes Tschofenig; =
GEOPRIV; ECRIT
Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA

Hi Martin,=20

Thanks for the quick response.=20

I am trying to figure out what the impact to the Internet is if many =
SDOs develop their own specifications for emergency services without =
considering the NENA work and I am particularly referring to the SDOs =
that potentially impact real networks.=20

More comments below:=20

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@andrew.com]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 12:47
> An: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig;=20
> GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Betreff: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) meant that ATIS works with=20
> NENA specifications. NENA is not an accredited SDO
> - in the same sense, for example, that ATIS is accredited and able to=20
> publish American National Standards. Of course, that doesn't prevent=20
> NENA from publishing referencable documents.
> The E2 interface specification used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a NENA=20
> document and, as ever, the i2 architecture specification is a NENA=20
> document.
>=20
> I don't think there's anything prescriptive about how the work of NENA =

> interacts with other SDOs. I think it's best understood in terms of=20
> the general role of NENA - which is to provide a national consensus=20
> view on how the elements of the emergency service fit together. This=20
> ends up covering everything from devices through access and core=20
> networks, and into the emergency network elements - the routers, call=20
> centers, and ALI and ANI databases.
>=20
> This is particularly important in an environment such as the US which=20
> is extremely devolved with multiple independent parties operating at=20
> every level and every function. Without a body like NENA it would all=20
> deteriorate into chaos - despite how it seems to some, that's not what =

> it is now. :)
>=20
> It's good to look at a case study.
>=20
> NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA
> J-STD-036 specification for phase 2 wireless which subsequently formed =

> the deployment model for how the FCC mandate for wireless E-9-1-1=20
> should be satisfied. This consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2.

>From the last SDO workshop I got the impression that the 3GPP2 actually =
had nothing expect for a few high-level requirements. Since a lot of the =
3GPP2 work is taken from 3GPP it might well be possible that they also =
recycle the emergency services work.=20

Maybe they have developed a solution already. Maybe you can point to the =
relevant documents.=20

 There are even=20
> parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification called NA-ESRK and NA-ESRD=20
> (the NA part stands for North American) - though they do actually have =

> generic utility.

But the NENA work is more than just these parameters.=20

>=20
> A typical chain of influence would go along the lines that US carriers =

> need to meet some regulatory requirement for which definitions=20
> originating or influenced by NENA form the model for deployment. The=20
> carriers need their vendors to support the functionality associated=20
> with the model. Both the vendors and the carriers participate in the=20
> SDOs governing the specifications for the network elements involved=20
> and subsequently influence what those specifications look like.
> To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications as an=20
> extended phenotype of the significance and influence of the US market=20
> and the role of NENA in that market.

But it is not really good if the NENA work does not appear in the =
standardization work of other SDOs.=20

>=20
> Does that make sense? I'm not aware that there are any strict=20
> definitions for the relationship between NENA and other SDOs.
It makes sense but to me it looks like the recipe for a non-working =
global emergency service solution since there are too many players =
involved that want to develop their own story.=20


Ciao
Hannes


> Cheers,
> Martin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM
> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> what do you mean by "ATIS"?
>=20
> You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should have=20
> included ATIS in the list of SDOs?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > ATIS
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> > To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > Hi all,
> >=20
> > I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
> >=20
> > Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the work=20
> > done by NENA?
> >=20
> > Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> > - 3GPP
> > - 3GPP2
> > - Wimax
> > - Wifi Alliance
> > - DSL Forum
> > - ETSI TISPAN
> > - CableLabs
> >=20
> > Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being=20
> > developed in
> >=20
> > these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work going=20
> > to be
> >=20
> > used on the Internet?
> >=20
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ecrit mailing list
> > Ecrit@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Geopriv mailing list
> > Geopriv@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain=20
> privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information.
> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately =

> and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of this email is=20
> prohibited.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> [mf2]
>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit

*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to =
which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or =
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other =
use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by =
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From: "Marc Linsner" <mlinsner@cisco.com>
To: "'Dawson, Martin'" <Martin.Dawson@andrew.com>
Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
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Errors-To: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org

Martin D.,

As I have expressed in many NENA venues and will reiterate here, NENA =
goes
way past their boundary of expertise.  I've pleaded many times, for many
years (starting at the 2000 TDC), at many a microphone in NENA venues to
please provide the requirements they need to perform their function.  =
IMO,
no other organization can do that as well as NENA for North America.
If/when NENA does such, the IP/VoIP/Internet industry/SDO community
would/will provide the best solution possible to meet those =
requirements.

My statement didn't change over time: 'Please draw a line in the sand, =
on
one side is the world and the other side is NENA constituents, state the
requirements when crossing the line.'

Instead, many people have promoted to NENA members that they can not =
only
take NENA requirements to the SDO community, but that NENA can somehow
dictate the solution.

NENA's current review of location acquisition mechanisms is an example =
of
NENA crossing the line.  Those documents which have now filtered to ATIS
then liaised to a wide variety of SDOs 'on behalf of NENA' are fraught =
with
technical errors and misguided assumptions.  But, when the responses to =
the
liaise attempt to point out those issues, it's passed off as a derelict
response.  Further discussion of the ATIS process wrt this isn't =
warranted
in this venue.  But my point is that it seems to be common thread with =
what
we're experiencing in the IETF.

But, there is good in the world!

In my obviously biased opinion, I believe an example of what has worked =
is
the relationship between NENA and ECRIT.  I believe that LoST/related =
drafts
have met almost all, if not all of the goals/requirements of the NENA =
LTD
wg.  I did get a little testy when I (possibly mistakenly) sensed a late
change in requirements, but I sense that has resolved itself.  I've also
witnessed a willingness by the LoST team to make adjustments to the =
solution
as we/NENA gain implementation experience.  If that isn't an example of =
how
things should work, then all hope has vanished.

So, I ask that you compare the difference between the NENA-ECRIT
relationship and the NENA-GeoPriv relationship, what is your opinion of =
what
worked/didn't work/isn't working/and why?

Yes, NENA does count!  Threats of regulation do not count!

-Marc-




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@andrew.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:47 AM
> To: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes=20
> Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) meant that ATIS=20
> works with NENA specifications. NENA is not an accredited SDO=20
> - in the same sense, for example, that ATIS is accredited and=20
> able to publish American National Standards. Of course, that=20
> doesn't prevent NENA from publishing referencable documents.=20
> The E2 interface specification used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a=20
> NENA document and, as ever, the i2 architecture specification=20
> is a NENA document.
>=20
> I don't think there's anything prescriptive about how the=20
> work of NENA interacts with other SDOs. I think it's best=20
> understood in terms of the general role of NENA - which is to=20
> provide a national consensus view on how the elements of the=20
> emergency service fit together. This ends up covering=20
> everything from devices through access and core networks, and=20
> into the emergency network elements - the routers, call=20
> centers, and ALI and ANI databases.
>=20
> This is particularly important in an environment such as the=20
> US which is extremely devolved with multiple independent=20
> parties operating at every level and every function. Without=20
> a body like NENA it would all deteriorate into chaos -=20
> despite how it seems to some, that's not what it is now. :)
>=20
> It's good to look at a case study.
>=20
> NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA=20
> J-STD-036 specification for phase 2 wireless which=20
> subsequently formed the deployment model for how the FCC=20
> mandate for wireless E-9-1-1 should be satisfied. This=20
> consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2. There are even=20
> parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification called NA-ESRK and=20
> NA-ESRD (the NA part stands for North American) - though they=20
> do actually have generic utility.
>=20
> A typical chain of influence would go along the lines that US=20
> carriers need to meet some regulatory requirement for which=20
> definitions originating or influenced by NENA form the model=20
> for deployment. The carriers need their vendors to support=20
> the functionality associated with the model. Both the vendors=20
> and the carriers participate in the SDOs governing the=20
> specifications for the network elements involved and=20
> subsequently influence what those specifications look like.=20
> To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications as=20
> an extended phenotype of the significance and influence of=20
> the US market and the role of NENA in that market.
>=20
> Does that make sense? I'm not aware that there are any strict=20
> definitions for the relationship between NENA and other SDOs.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Martin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM
> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> Hi Martin,=20
>=20
> what do you mean by "ATIS"?
>=20
> You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should=20
> have included ATIS in the list of SDOs?=20
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > ATIS
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> > To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > Hi all,
> >=20
> > I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
> >=20
> > Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of=20
> the work done=20
> > by NENA?
> >=20
> > Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> > - 3GPP
> > - 3GPP2
> > - Wimax
> > - Wifi Alliance
> > - DSL Forum
> > - ETSI TISPAN
> > - CableLabs
> >=20
> > Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being=20
> developed=20
> > in
> >=20
> > these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA=20
> work going to=20
> > be
> >=20
> > used on the Internet?
> >=20
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ecrit mailing list
> > Ecrit@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Geopriv mailing list
> > Geopriv@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may=20
> contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20
> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender=20
> immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of=20
> this email is prohibited.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> [mf2]
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit



From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 10:50:07 2007
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Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 10:49:30 -0400
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Thread-Topic: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
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From: "Abbott, Nadine B" <nabbott@telcordia.com>
To: "Marc Linsner" <mlinsner@cisco.com>
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Marc,

I think that you misrepresent the NENA WG work on location acquisition.

The NENA WG worked to provide requirements and to feed these =
requirements into the IETF Geopriv process, and it seems to me that many =
IETF Geopriv members have exerted considerable effort to consider how to =
include those requirements.
Many of those requirements were in fact, quite aligned with the related =
Long-Term Definition requirements provided to ECRIT.=20

Further, the NENA WG then has tried to stay aware of what is going on in =
many industry forums in the expectation of  identifying and recommending =
standard solutions that would meet those requirements, and in the hope =
of promoting widespread implementation of location-related capabilities. =
 This is an ongoing work effort.

In the liaisons that were sent out to many SDOs last summer, the NENA WG =
encouraged these SDOs to work in cooperation with IETF toward common =
solutions. NENA has a keen interest in seeing common location solutions =
become widely available. In addition to this encouragement, the liaisons =
that were sent out included a summary of the above-mentioned =
requirements, as well as examples of proposed solution(s) that the NENA =
WG found to meet many of these requirements, to stimulate dialog. =20

To my knowledge, the NENA WG has never "passed off as a derelict =
response" the responses that have been received from several SDOs to =
these liaisons. =20

As you point out, IETF has the deepest understanding of the Internet, =
but it has always seemed to me that in the area of location =
capabilities, the community of mobile and IP service and solution =
providers have valuable insights to offer.  Members of the NENA WG have =
tried to advocate within IETF (and industry SDOs) for solutions that =
would meet practical needs of the emergency services community, and also =
have a better chance of being implemented in existing infrastructures =
beyond enterprise environments.

I am encouraged by Ted Hardie's comments and the hope that the Geopriv =
WG will be able to make some progress in the Prague meeting. =20

Regards,
Nadine Abbott
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Linsner [mailto:mlinsner@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:43 AM
To: 'Dawson, Martin'
Cc: 'GEOPRIV'; 'ECRIT'
Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA

Martin D.,

As I have expressed in many NENA venues and will reiterate here, NENA =
goes way past their boundary of expertise.  I've pleaded many times, for =
many years (starting at the 2000 TDC), at many a microphone in NENA =
venues to please provide the requirements they need to perform their =
function.  IMO, no other organization can do that as well as NENA for =
North America.
If/when NENA does such, the IP/VoIP/Internet industry/SDO community =
would/will provide the best solution possible to meet those =
requirements.

My statement didn't change over time: 'Please draw a line in the sand, =
on one side is the world and the other side is NENA constituents, state =
the requirements when crossing the line.'

Instead, many people have promoted to NENA members that they can not =
only take NENA requirements to the SDO community, but that NENA can =
somehow dictate the solution.

NENA's current review of location acquisition mechanisms is an example =
of NENA crossing the line.  Those documents which have now filtered to =
ATIS then liaised to a wide variety of SDOs 'on behalf of NENA' are =
fraught with technical errors and misguided assumptions.  But, when the =
responses to the liaise attempt to point out those issues, it's passed =
off as a derelict response.  Further discussion of the ATIS process wrt =
this isn't warranted in this venue.  But my point is that it seems to be =
common thread with what we're experiencing in the IETF.

But, there is good in the world!

In my obviously biased opinion, I believe an example of what has worked =
is the relationship between NENA and ECRIT.  I believe that LoST/related =
drafts have met almost all, if not all of the goals/requirements of the =
NENA LTD wg.  I did get a little testy when I (possibly mistakenly) =
sensed a late change in requirements, but I sense that has resolved =
itself.  I've also witnessed a willingness by the LoST team to make =
adjustments to the solution as we/NENA gain implementation experience.  =
If that isn't an example of how things should work, then all hope has =
vanished.

So, I ask that you compare the difference between the NENA-ECRIT =
relationship and the NENA-GeoPriv relationship, what is your opinion of =
what worked/didn't work/isn't working/and why?

Yes, NENA does count!  Threats of regulation do not count!

-Marc-




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@andrew.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:47 AM
> To: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig;=20
> GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) meant that ATIS works with=20
> NENA specifications. NENA is not an accredited SDO
> - in the same sense, for example, that ATIS is accredited and able to=20
> publish American National Standards. Of course, that doesn't prevent=20
> NENA from publishing referencable documents.
> The E2 interface specification used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a NENA=20
> document and, as ever, the i2 architecture specification is a NENA=20
> document.
>=20
> I don't think there's anything prescriptive about how the work of NENA =

> interacts with other SDOs. I think it's best understood in terms of=20
> the general role of NENA - which is to provide a national consensus=20
> view on how the elements of the emergency service fit together. This=20
> ends up covering everything from devices through access and core=20
> networks, and into the emergency network elements - the routers, call=20
> centers, and ALI and ANI databases.
>=20
> This is particularly important in an environment such as the US which=20
> is extremely devolved with multiple independent parties operating at=20
> every level and every function. Without a body like NENA it would all=20
> deteriorate into chaos - despite how it seems to some, that's not what =

> it is now. :)
>=20
> It's good to look at a case study.
>=20
> NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA
> J-STD-036 specification for phase 2 wireless which subsequently formed =

> the deployment model for how the FCC mandate for wireless E-9-1-1=20
> should be satisfied. This consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2. There=20
> are even parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification called NA-ESRK and=20
> NA-ESRD (the NA part stands for North American) - though they do=20
> actually have generic utility.
>=20
> A typical chain of influence would go along the lines that US carriers =

> need to meet some regulatory requirement for which definitions=20
> originating or influenced by NENA form the model for deployment. The=20
> carriers need their vendors to support the functionality associated=20
> with the model. Both the vendors and the carriers participate in the=20
> SDOs governing the specifications for the network elements involved=20
> and subsequently influence what those specifications look like.
> To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications as an=20
> extended phenotype of the significance and influence of the US market=20
> and the role of NENA in that market.
>=20
> Does that make sense? I'm not aware that there are any strict=20
> definitions for the relationship between NENA and other SDOs.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Martin
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM
> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> what do you mean by "ATIS"?
>=20
> You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should have=20
> included ATIS in the list of SDOs?
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > ATIS
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> > To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> > Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
> >=20
> > Hi all,
> >=20
> > I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
> >=20
> > Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of
> the work done
> > by NENA?
> >=20
> > Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> > - 3GPP
> > - 3GPP2
> > - Wimax
> > - Wifi Alliance
> > - DSL Forum
> > - ETSI TISPAN
> > - CableLabs
> >=20
> > Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being
> developed
> > in
> >=20
> > these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA
> work going to
> > be
> >=20
> > used on the Internet?
> >=20
> > Ciao
> > Hannes
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ecrit mailing list
> > Ecrit@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Geopriv mailing list
> > Geopriv@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain=20
> privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information.
> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately =

> and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of this email is=20
> prohibited.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> [mf2]
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv

_______________________________________________
Geopriv mailing list
Geopriv@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit



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From: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
Subject: Re: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:21:22 -0400
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On Mar 15, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Abbott, Nadine B wrote:

> The NENA WG worked to provide requirements and to feed these  
> requirements into the IETF Geopriv process, and it seems to me that  
> many IETF Geopriv members have exerted considerable effort to  
> consider how to include those requirements.
> Many of those requirements were in fact, quite aligned with the  
> related Long-Term Definition requirements provided to ECRIT.
>
> Further, the NENA WG then has tried to stay aware of what is going  
> on in many industry forums in the expectation of  identifying and  
> recommending standard solutions that would meet those requirements,  
> and in the hope of promoting widespread implementation of location- 
> related capabilities.  This is an ongoing work effort.

I'm currently sitting in a NENA NG Partner Program meeting in  
Arlington, VA.  One of the presentations was a list of the SDOs that  
NENA has reached out to, with the IETF left off the list.  When  
questioned about that, the response was (summarizing) "Working with  
the IETF is a given.  We work with them every day."

I think some of the frustration around the requirements has been  
that, from the perspective of many IETF'ers, the requirements from  
NENA have been thrown over the wall, they are done as far as NENA is  
concerned, and that the IETF has no right to question them.  I do not  
believe that was the intent, because I know many NENA active  
participants have been active in GEOPRIV and ECRIT.  From the other  
perspective, I'm sure NENA participants see the IETF reacting badly.

In the future, both organizations should strive to work together  
during the requirements development.  I personally I have casually  
pursued getting the IETF to have an official liaison to NENA, but the  
IAB has not exactly been receptive of the idea.  I think it is time  
that the ECRIT and GEOPRIV co-chairs push harder on the IAB to  
establish an official relationship if NENA is willing to allow it.

-andy
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -kht=
ml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Mar 15, 2007, at 10:=
49 AM, Abbott, Nadine B wrote:</DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newlin=
e"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"=
><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">The =
NENA WG worked to provide requirements and to feed these requirements int=
o the IETF Geopriv process, and it seems to me that many IETF Geopriv mem=
bers have exerted considerable effort to consider how to include those re=
quirements.</FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">Many of th=
ose requirements were in fact, quite aligned with the related Long-Term D=
efinition requirements provided to ECRIT.<SPAN class=3D"Apple-converted-s=
pace">=A0</SPAN></FONT></P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; =
font: 12.0px Helvetica; min-height: 14.0px"><BR></P> <P style=3D"margin: =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"fon=
t: 12.0px Helvetica">Further, the NENA WG then has tried to stay aware of =
what is going on in many industry forums in the expectation of<SPAN class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>identifying and recommending standa=
rd solutions that would meet those requirements, and in the hope of promo=
ting widespread implementation of location-related capabilities.<SPAN cla=
ss=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </SPAN>This is an ongoing work effort.</=
FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>I'm currently sitting in a NENA NG =
Partner Program meeting in Arlington, VA.=A0 One of the presentations was =
a list of the SDOs that NENA has reached out to, with the IETF left off t=
he list.=A0 When questioned about that, the response was (summarizing) "W=
orking with the IETF is a given.=A0 We work with them every day."</DIV><D=
IV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I think some of the f=
rustration around the requirements has been that, from the perspective of =
many IETF'ers, the requirements from NENA have been thrown over the wall, =
they are done as far as NENA is concerned, and that the IETF has no right =
to question them.=A0 I do not believe that was the intent, because I know =
many NENA active participants have been active in GEOPRIV and ECRIT.=A0 F=
rom the other perspective, I'm sure NENA participants see the IETF reacti=
ng badly.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>In t=
he future, both organizations should strive to work together during the r=
equirements development.=A0 I personally I have casually pursued getting =
the IETF to have an official liaison to NENA, but the IAB has not exactly =
been receptive of the idea.=A0 I think it is time that the ECRIT and GEOP=
RIV co-chairs push harder on the IAB to establish an official relationshi=
p if NENA is willing to allow it.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-plac=
eholder"></DIV><DIV>-andy</DIV></BODY></HTML>
--=_zeke.ecotroph.net-23436-1173971917-0001-2--


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From: "Marc Linsner" <mlinsner@cisco.com>
To: "'Abbott, Nadine B'" <nabbott@telcordia.com>
Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:45:55 -0400
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Nadine,


> Further, the NENA WG then has tried to stay aware of what is 
> going on in many industry forums in the expectation of  
> identifying and recommending standard solutions that would 
> meet those requirements, and in the hope of promoting 
> widespread implementation of location-related capabilities.  
> This is an ongoing work effort.

It is the act of NENA 'recommending standard solutions' that I am referring
to.  IMO, that is outside of NENA's expertise.

> 
> In the liaisons that were sent out to many SDOs last summer, 
> the NENA WG encouraged these SDOs to work in cooperation with 
> IETF toward common solutions. NENA has a keen interest in 
> seeing common location solutions become widely available. In 
> addition to this encouragement, the liaisons that were sent 
> out included a summary of the above-mentioned requirements, 
> as well as examples of proposed solution(s) that the NENA WG 
> found to meet many of these requirements, to stimulate dialog.

I wasn't specifically referring to the liaisons from NENA last summer, sorry
that wasn't clear, but I was focused on NENA's new found agent, ESIF/NGES.
It's very interesting on how Martin is characterizing these latest liaisons
from NGES as an ESIF effort, but yet in that very venue when I questioned
why normal ANSI engineering practices were not being exercised, I was told
to go back to NENA if I questioned the requirements.  So either that effort
is an ESIF project requiring due ANSI proscribed engineering, or ESIF/NGES
is an agent for NENA as was explained to me in that venue.  Martin is
changing the characterization of this project to fit his needs in the
current conversation.

  
> 
> To my knowledge, the NENA WG has never "passed off as a 
> derelict response" the responses that have been received from 
> several SDOs to these liaisons.

Again, this is my opinion of how NGES is handling responses to their
liaison, sorry for the confusion.

> 
> As you point out, IETF has the deepest understanding of the 
> Internet, but it has always seemed to me that in the area of 
> location capabilities, the community of mobile and IP service 
> and solution providers have valuable insights to offer.  
> Members of the NENA WG have tried to advocate within IETF 
> (and industry SDOs) for solutions that would meet practical 
> needs of the emergency services community, and also have a 
> better chance of being implemented in existing 
> infrastructures beyond enterprise environments.

So, come one and all with requirements.  When consensus on requirements is
achieved, come one and all with solution proposals.  I've tried to
demonstrate with the ECRIT example how that process works and at the same I
believe we've witnessed how it doesn't work by bringing the requirements
along with a proposed solution in what appears to be a mixed up sequence.

> 
> I am encouraged by Ted Hardie's comments and the hope that 
> the Geopriv WG will be able to make some progress in the 
> Prague meeting.

I have great hope for this effort.  I hope Ted can provide the spark to get
things moving forward.  I know I'm tired of trying.

-Marc-

 

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[Unrelated to ecrit/geopriv, but I'm curious.]

On 2007/03/14 09:03, "Raymond Forbes (CV/ETL)" <raymond.forbes@ericsson.com> wrote:
> 
> In the UK, Eire, Switzerland, and increasingly in other EU countries;
> SIM-Less Emergency Calls are forbidden as the Mobile traceability is
> mandated by law. In a number of countries like France and Portugal that
> did allow SIM-less Emergency calls though not by mandate the laws and
> systems now (or soon will) forbid them. The reason for this change is
> that the Emergency services were flooded with Anonymous calls from
> second hand traders of Mobile handsets. 

If these anonymous test calls are reason for disabling a possible
life-saving feature (emergency calls from SIM-less phones), why didn't
the regulator instead force carriers to implement a simple test-number
which could be used by those second hand traders without bothering PSAPs?

It's not like these traders _want_ to harrass the PSAPs.

/ol
-- 
< Otmar Lendl (lendl@nic.at) | nic.at Systems Engineer >

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 13:34:06 2007
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I am the chair of the Long Term Definition Working Group in NENA.  We are
developing a specification currently entitled "Functional and Interface
Requirements for Next Generation 9-1-1 (i3)".  The central concept to i3 is
the Emergency Services IP Network, which is a managed IP network to which
all public safety agencies will be connected.  The ESInet, which WILL be
connected to the Internet, is the entry point for emergency calls, but it is
also used among public safety agencies to exchange calls and data.

The above referenced document has a defined scope.  That scope is the
interface for calls and asynchronous events from access networks (including
the Internet), and the 9-1-1 system, coming into the ESInet and things
within the ESInet itself.  After a transition period, ALL calls and events
will enter the ESInet through an i3 defined interface.  A succinct
definition of that interface is "SIP, with location and call back, routed by
LoST".  We may support other interfaces (e.g. XMPP).  There will be an
asynchronous event interface.  The scope does not include what happens
inside a PSAP, but does include the external interfaces it exposes and uses.

The working group is intimately familiar with, and attempts to work with
ecrit to make sure that the interface it defines aligns with the work of
ecrit.  The interface for multimedia calls will be SIP, and should conform
to the -framework and -phonebcp documents.  The scope of i3 is slightly
bigger than the edge of the ESInet, because it includes the "Emergency Call
Routing Function" (ECRF) which is the database callers use to route calls to
an Emergency Services Routing Proxy (ESRP) which sits at the edge of the
ESInet.  The ECRF will have a LoST interface.  

Any carrier who delivers calls via IP to a PSAP in North America, will be
required to use the NENA interface, since that is the only interface that
will be supported.  During transition, other interfaces may be supported,
and of course, existing interfaces will be supported for some time during
transition.  PSAPs presently define their interfaces, and carriers are
required to conform to them.  That will not change.  Carriers don't get to
make up their own interface and demand the PSAP conform to that.  On the
other hand, PSAPs, and NENA, don't get to tell carriers how to build their
networks.  We only define the interface, and, in this case, supply databases
for routing and validation.

A draft of the document was liaisoned to a number of SDOs for comments.  We
are reluctant to put the document on a public website, since it is just a
draft, and NENA policies to not permit drafts of its standards to be
publicly available.  I would have to get the group and NENA's concurrence,
but if there are members of ecrit who cannot get the document by another
path, I can probably arrange to email it to you.

LTD has, on a number of occasions, sent requirements to ecrit.  This has
been done in the usual informal way, as an email or an Internet Draft
submitted by an individual.  We discuss ecrit drafts in our meeting, achieve
consensus on what we would like to see happen, and delegate individuals to
pursue the changes we want.  Theresa Reese has recently been fulfilling that
role with respect to the LoST drafts. 

In the NENA division of labor, location for NG9-1-1 is the province of a
different working group (the "VoIP Location Working Group"), which has
different leadership, but similar style.  They mainly deal with geopriv.

While a formal liaison relationship with NENA is possible, I don't feel we
need one.  NENA, like IETF, can do formal liaisons, but the organization is
not an SDO, and doesn't really have a great process for liaisons.  It would
be nice to have a better way to get document drafts to IETF folks.

I hope this is a sufficient explanation of NENAs work on IP based interfaces
to emergency calls, the scope of its current work in that area, the way it
thinks it interacts with IETF, and how it expects its work product to be
used.  If you have any questions, I would be please to answer them.

Brian Rosen
Chair
Long Term Definition Working Group
VoIP/Packet Technical Committee
NENA

Note: This email is my personal opinion and does not represent any
discussions in NENA

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
> To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
> Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
> 
> Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the work done
> by NENA?
> 
> Consider the following SDOs, as an example
> - 3GPP
> - 3GPP2
> - Wimax
> - Wifi Alliance
> - DSL Forum
> - ETSI TISPAN
> - CableLabs
> 
> Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being developed in
> these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work going to be
> used on the Internet?
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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On Mar 15, 2007, at 1:33 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:

> While a formal liaison relationship with NENA is possible, I don't  
> feel we
> need one.  NENA, like IETF, can do formal liaisons, but the  
> organization is
> not an SDO, and doesn't really have a great process for liaisons.   
> It would
> be nice to have a better way to get document drafts to IETF folks.

Brian,

The IETF has liaison relationships with organizations that are not  
typically classified as SDOs.  ICANN is a big example.  I would also  
disagree about NENA not being an SDO, as they appear to be publishing  
standards in the context of these conversations.  The standards may  
not be typical technical wire protocol specifications, but  
requirements can also be standards.  I just had a conversation with  
Roger Hixson about the possibility of a formal liaison, and he  
believes it to be appropriate.

-andy
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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -kht=
ml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Mar 15, 2007, at 1:3=
3 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:</DIV><BR class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BL=
OCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT =
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rmal liaison relationship with NENA is possible, I don't feel we</FONT></=
P> <P style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">need one.<SPAN class=3D"Apple=
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=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">be nice to have a better way to get document =
drafts to IETF folks.</FONT></P> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>Brian,</DIV>=
<DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The IETF has liaiso=
n relationships with organizations that are not typically classified as S=
DOs.=A0 ICANN is a big example.=A0 I would also disagree about NENA not b=
eing an SDO, as they appear to be publishing standards in the context of =
these conversations.=A0 The standards may not be typical technical wire p=
rotocol specifications, but requirements can also be standards.=A0 I just =
had a conversation with Roger Hixson about the possibility of a formal li=
aison, and he believes it to be appropriate.</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml=
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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 15 15:41:56 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
To: "'Andrew Newton'" <andy@hxr.us>
Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:41:47 -0400
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Okay, just so you know what you are asking for.

 

For my group to send an email to the ecrit or geopriv list, we discuss it in
a conference call, we MAY (but often don't) pass around a draft, and we
designate some one to send it.

 

To get a liaison out, we fill out a form, hold a semi-official vote, send it
to the "tech lead team", which includes Roger.  They approve it, and then
Roger sends it.  So far, the average time to get through that process is
between one and three months, although everyone agrees that is ridiculous,
and we should be able to get it down to a couple of weeks.

 

So sure, we can have a formal liaison if you want one.

 

Brian

 

  _____  

From: Andrew Newton [mailto:andy@hxr.us] 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:31 PM
To: Brian Rosen
Cc: 'Hannes Tschofenig'; 'GEOPRIV'; 'ECRIT'
Subject: Re: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA

 

 

On Mar 15, 2007, at 1:33 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:





While a formal liaison relationship with NENA is possible, I don't feel we

need one. NENA, like IETF, can do formal liaisons, but the organization is

not an SDO, and doesn't really have a great process for liaisons. It would

be nice to have a better way to get document drafts to IETF folks.

 

Brian,

 

The IETF has liaison relationships with organizations that are not typically
classified as SDOs. ICANN is a big example. I would also disagree about NENA
not being an SDO, as they appear to be publishing standards in the context
of these conversations. The standards may not be typical technical wire
protocol specifications, but requirements can also be standards. I just had
a conversation with Roger Hixson about the possibility of a formal liaison,
and he believes it to be appropriate.

 

-andy


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Okay, just so you know what you are =
asking
for.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For my group to send an email to =
the ecrit
or geopriv list, we discuss it in a conference call, we MAY (but often =
don&#8217;t)
pass around a draft, and we designate some one to send =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To get a liaison out, we fill out a =
form,
hold a semi-official vote, send it to the &#8220;tech lead team&#8221;, =
which
includes Roger. &nbsp;They approve it, and then Roger sends it.&nbsp; So =
far,
the average time to get through that process is between one and three =
months,
although everyone agrees that is ridiculous, and we should be able to =
get it
down to a couple of weeks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So sure, we can have a formal =
liaison if
you want one.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0mm 0mm =
0mm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Andrew Newton
[mailto:andy@hxr.us] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, March 15, =
2007
3:31 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Brian Rosen<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> 'Hannes Tschofenig';
'GEOPRIV'; 'ECRIT'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Geopriv] =
RE: [Ecrit]
NENA</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mar 15, 2007, at 1:33 PM, Brian Rosen =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0mm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>While a formal liaison
relationship with NENA is possible, I don't feel =
we</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0mm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>need one.<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>NENA, like IETF, can do formal =
liaisons,
but the organization is</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0mm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>not an SDO, and doesn't =
really
have a great process for liaisons.<span class=3Dapple-converted-space> =
</span>It
would</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin:0mm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DHelvetica><span
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>be nice to have a better =
way to
get document drafts to IETF folks.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Brian,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The IETF has liaison relationships with organizations that are =
not
typically classified as SDOs. ICANN is a big example. I would also =
disagree
about NENA not being an SDO, as they appear to be publishing standards =
in the
context of these conversations. The standards may not be typical =
technical wire
protocol specifications, but requirements can also be standards. I just =
had a
conversation with Roger Hixson about the possibility of a formal =
liaison, and
he believes it to be appropriate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>-andy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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This ends up being a bit of an essay - but it was the only way I felt I cou=
ld respond to the question. The executive summary just says "I think the si=
gnificance of these forums to the Internet depends on the nature of the for=
um." I know there's a mutual dependence between the Internet and these foru=
ms - in a very real way, neither would survive without the other.=0D=0A=0D=0A=
1) A number of the forums are specialists in access technology. They care t=
o the extent that convention and regulation impact the functionality they n=
eed to provide.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe IEEE, for example, reported at the SDO works=
hop in Columbia that they were considering dropping work on explicit locati=
on support because the "L7" approach was gaining focus - and because the NE=
NA requirements were based on that model. They are now thinking that it's b=
etter to provide the mechanisms to deliver network measurement parameters b=
y which a LIS could determine location - and subsequently package, deliver,=
 and protect according to a general model, rather than provide a WiMAX spec=
ific mechanism to get location information to an end device. For them, it's=
 kind of a relief that they don't have to push up into the application issu=
es associated with location.=0D=0A=0D=0A2) I'm not sure what the implicatio=
ns are for the "Internet". My suspicion is that there aren't particularly s=
trong implications for it. Access technologies will continue to diversify a=
nd evolve as they have done for the last few decades. WiMAX, WiFi, Ethernet=
=2E.. none of them are technically just for IP access but the only market w=
hich permits them to become commodities is IP and the most common applicati=
on for that is Internet access. I think the IEEE and other access forums wi=
ll continue to try and keep their products relevant to that use.=0D=0A=0D=0A=
3) In the case of 3GPP/2 however, we have a definite collision of worlds. T=
hey represent a complete end to end network architecture covering everythin=
g from devices through functional network elements, protocols, and even the=
 services. While the architecture defines Packet Service (on top of the inc=
reasingly defunct Circuit Service) it is definitely not the same as being t=
he Internet. Strictly speaking, IMS only has meaning within that constraint=
 (even though the term is being used for a general Internet based VoIP serv=
ice). The most significant convergence issue is between the likes of 3G and=
 the general Internet model. The probability envelope still hasn't collapse=
d on whether 3G is primarily just another Internet access technology or whe=
ther it's a complete network itself - with Internet access bolted on the si=
de as a peripheral function. I think market forces will not permit it to co=
ntinue as a relatively complete but closed network - but that's just my vie=
w.=0D=0A=0D=0A4) NENA, ETSI TISPAN, and similar organizations represent spe=
cial interest groups that live on the Internet - I think we'll see increasi=
ng numbers of such organizations - NENA didn't used to worry about it, but =
now it does. The Internet is paying the price of its success; people wanted=
 everyone to use it, now they do and they have things to say about how they=
'd like it to be. To some extent they will just want to refine their own ap=
plications and conventions but, also, they will seek to influence the funct=
ionality that is available in the Internet to make it optimal for their int=
erests.=0D=0A=0D=0A5) The role of the IETF in all this... I am not sure. I =
understand that in principal it may be the anointed party that ensures ther=
e is consistency and integrity to support global interoperability and some =
principles in support of users. When I look around, though, I see many many=
 working groups focusing on very eclectic topics - and I'm not sure what so=
rt of constitutional governance is used to really decide what's pertinet fo=
r the IETF and what might be better off having its own forum.=0D=0A=0D=0AAn=
 alternative view would have been to say that "internet" means that it stop=
s at the internetworking layer (layer 3 really) and that the Internet is th=
e specific most significant global set of interconnected networks. From tha=
t perspective, the IETF would have made sure there was a consistent layer 3=
, including control functions (like DNS, DHCP, BGCP, etc.) but wouldn't spo=
nsor applications - nor necessarily session, transport, and presentation la=
yer technologies. In it's purest form the Internet is an openly connected s=
et of layer 3 networks; a global platform for any number of applications. V=
oice is just a service, instant messaging is just a service, U-Tube is just=
 a service... they all involve protocols and have interworking issues in th=
eir own domain but that's their problem and they shouldn't be able to impac=
t a properly robust Internet. I think that's the virtue of the Internet ove=
r 3GPP/2 by the way - it's not as heavily prescriptive about what it is use=
d for.=0D=0A=0D=0AOf course - the IETF is not as I just suggested it could =
be - I said earlier what it looks like to me... confusing. In practice some=
 of the application protocols are defined in the IETF and others are not. W=
3C was formed by Berners-Lee so he could pursue WWW principles independentl=
y of the IETF. It didn't really make any difference to the Internet that he=
 did that - just added a terrific new application area with its own forum. =
It's certainly good that there's a place for people to go if they think the=
y have a useful idea for something to do on the Internet but it certainly b=
ecomes a "grab bag". Perhaps it was because the IETF inherited other "stuff=
" like SMTP, FTP, and SNMP from the original ARPANet suite that opened the =
door to make it forum that's an application free for all... I don't know.=0D=
=0A=0D=0ACheers,=0D=0AMartin=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFro=
m: Stark, Barbara [mailto:Barbara.Stark@BellSouth.com]=20=0D=0ASent: Thursd=
ay, 15 March 2007 11:13 PM=0D=0ATo: Tschofenig, Hannes; Dawson, Martin; Dol=
ly, Martin C (Attlabs); Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0ASubject: RE:=
 [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A=0D=0ADSL Forum is also using the NENA doc=
uments to determine requirements for network elements and CPE.=0D=0ABarbara=
=20=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFrom: Tschofenig, Hannes [ma=
ilto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]=20=0D=0ASent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 =
7:58 AM=0D=0ATo: Dawson, Martin; Dolly, Martin C (Attlabs); Hannes Tschofen=
ig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0ASubject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A=0D=0A=
Hi Martin,=20=0D=0A=0D=0AThanks for the quick response.=20=0D=0A=0D=0AI am =
trying to figure out what the impact to the Internet is if many SDOs develo=
p their own specifications for emergency services without considering the N=
ENA work and I am particularly referring to the SDOs that potentially impac=
t real networks.=20=0D=0A=0D=0AMore comments below:=20=0D=0A=0D=0A> -----Ur=
spr=FCngliche Nachricht-----=0D=0A> Von: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Daws=
on@andrew.com]=0D=0A> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 12:47=0D=0A> An=
: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig;=20=0D=0A=
> GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> Betreff: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A>=20=0D=
=0A> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) meant that ATIS works with =0D=
=0A> NENA specifications. NENA is not an accredited SDO=0D=0A> - in the sam=
e sense, for example, that ATIS is accredited and able to=20=0D=0A> publish=
 American National Standards. Of course, that doesn't prevent=20=0D=0A> NEN=
A from publishing referencable documents.=0D=0A> The E2 interface specifica=
tion used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a NENA=20=0D=0A> document and, as ever, t=
he i2 architecture specification is a NENA=20=0D=0A> document.=0D=0A>=20=0D=
=0A> I don't think there's anything prescriptive about how the work of NENA=
=20=0D=0A> interacts with other SDOs. I think it's best understood in terms=
 of=20=0D=0A> the general role of NENA - which is to provide a national con=
sensus=20=0D=0A> view on how the elements of the emergency service fit toge=
ther. This=20=0D=0A> ends up covering everything from devices through acces=
s and core=20=0D=0A> networks, and into the emergency network elements - th=
e routers, call=20=0D=0A> centers, and ALI and ANI databases.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A=
> This is particularly important in an environment such as the US which=20=0D=
=0A> is extremely devolved with multiple independent parties operating at =0D=
=0A> every level and every function. Without a body like NENA it would all =0D=
=0A> deteriorate into chaos - despite how it seems to some, that's not what=
=20=0D=0A> it is now. :)=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> It's good to look at a case study=
=2E=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA=0D=
=0A> J-STD-036 specification for phase 2 wireless which subsequently formed=
=20=0D=0A> the deployment model for how the FCC mandate for wireless E-9-1-=
1=20=0D=0A> should be satisfied. This consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2.=0D=
=0A=0D=0A>From the last SDO workshop I got the impression that the 3GPP2 ac=
tually had nothing expect for a few high-level requirements. Since a lot of=
 the 3GPP2 work is taken from 3GPP it might well be possible that they also=
 recycle the emergency services work.=20=0D=0A=0D=0AMaybe they have develop=
ed a solution already. Maybe you can point to the relevant documents.=20=0D=
=0A=0D=0A There are even=20=0D=0A> parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification=
 called NA-ESRK and NA-ESRD=20=0D=0A> (the NA part stands for North America=
n) - though they do actually have=20=0D=0A> generic utility.=0D=0A=0D=0ABut=
 the NENA work is more than just these parameters.=20=0D=0A=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A=
> A typical chain of influence would go along the lines that US carriers =0D=
=0A> need to meet some regulatory requirement for which definitions=20=0D=0A=
> originating or influenced by NENA form the model for deployment. The=20=0D=
=0A> carriers need their vendors to support the functionality associated =0D=
=0A> with the model. Both the vendors and the carriers participate in the =0D=
=0A> SDOs governing the specifications for the network elements involved =0D=
=0A> and subsequently influence what those specifications look like.=0D=0A>=
 To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications as an=20=0D=0A>=
 extended phenotype of the significance and influence of the US market=20=0D=
=0A> and the role of NENA in that market.=0D=0A=0D=0ABut it is not really g=
ood if the NENA work does not appear in the standardization work of other S=
DOs.=20=0D=0A=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> Does that make sense=3F I'm not aware that t=
here are any strict=20=0D=0A> definitions for the relationship between NENA=
 and other SDOs.=0D=0AIt makes sense but to me it looks like the recipe for=
 a non-working global emergency service solution since there are too many p=
layers involved that want to develop their own story.=20=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AC=
iao=0D=0AHannes=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A> Cheers,=0D=0A> Martin=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> -=
----Original Message-----=0D=0A> From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.ts=
chofenig@siemens.com]=0D=0A> Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM=0D=0A> T=
o: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> Subje=
ct: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> Hi Martin,=0D=0A>=20=0D=
=0A> what do you mean by "ATIS"=3F=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> You mean that ATIS is u=
sing the NENA architecture or I should have=20=0D=0A> included ATIS in the =
list of SDOs=3F=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> Ciao=0D=0A> Hannes=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> > ----=
-Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----=0D=0A> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mai=
lto:mdolly@att.com]=0D=0A> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28=0D=
=0A> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE=
: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > ATIS=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > -----Original=
 Message-----=0D=0A> > From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gm=
x.net]=0D=0A> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM=0D=0A> > To: GEOPRIV=
; ECRIT=0D=0A> > Subject: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Hi all,=0D=0A> =
>=20=0D=0A> > I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.=0D=0A=
> >=20=0D=0A> > Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of th=
e work=20=0D=0A> > done by NENA=3F=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Consider the follow=
ing SDOs, as an example=0D=0A> > - 3GPP=0D=0A> > - 3GPP2=0D=0A> > - Wimax=0D=
=0A> > - Wifi Alliance=0D=0A> > - DSL Forum=0D=0A> > - ETSI TISPAN=0D=0A> >=
 - CableLabs=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Since there is often a mismatch between t=
he standards being=20=0D=0A> > developed in=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > these SDOs=
 I would like to also understand how the NENA work going=20=0D=0A> > to be=0D=
=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > used on the Internet=3F=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Ciao=0D=0A>=
 > Hannes=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > ________________________________=
_______________=0D=0A> > Ecrit mailing list=0D=0A> > Ecrit@ietf.org=0D=0A> =
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > _______=
________________________________________=0D=0A> > Geopriv mailing list=0D=0A=
> > Geopriv@ietf.org=0D=0A> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopri=
v=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> ____________________________________________=
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Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:27:47 -0500
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Hi Marc,=0D=0A=0D=0AI don't know what you mean. NENA wrote requirements. Th=
e IETF is defining protocols. I think that's what you just said should happ=
en.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe acquisition protocol comparison isn't a NENA document, i=
t's an ESIF document. Perhaps you don't distinguish between them. Either wa=
y, it's in response to some industry demand for clarity on what they should=
 be implementing. I think it's been worthwhile in bringing the requirements=
 to the fore across a number of forums.=0D=0A=0D=0AI haven't been involved =
in the NENA/ECRIT work, so I couldn't comment on how effective it's been.=0D=
=0A=0D=0ACheers,=0D=0AMartin=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFro=
m: Marc Linsner [mailto:mlinsner@cisco.com]=20=0D=0ASent: Friday, 16 March =
2007 12:43 AM=0D=0ATo: Dawson, Martin=0D=0ACc: 'GEOPRIV'; 'ECRIT'=0D=0ASubj=
ect: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A=0D=0AMartin D.,=0D=0A=0D=0AAs I h=
ave expressed in many NENA venues and will reiterate here, NENA goes=0D=0Aw=
ay past their boundary of expertise.  I've pleaded many times, for many=0D=0A=
years (starting at the 2000 TDC), at many a microphone in NENA venues to=0D=
=0Aplease provide the requirements they need to perform their function.  IM=
O,=0D=0Ano other organization can do that as well as NENA for North America=
=2E=0D=0AIf/when NENA does such, the IP/VoIP/Internet industry/SDO communit=
y=0D=0Awould/will provide the best solution possible to meet those requirem=
ents.=0D=0A=0D=0AMy statement didn't change over time: 'Please draw a line =
in the sand, on=0D=0Aone side is the world and the other side is NENA const=
ituents, state the=0D=0Arequirements when crossing the line.'=0D=0A=0D=0AIn=
stead, many people have promoted to NENA members that they can not only=0D=0A=
take NENA requirements to the SDO community, but that NENA can somehow=0D=0A=
dictate the solution.=0D=0A=0D=0ANENA's current review of location acquisit=
ion mechanisms is an example of=0D=0ANENA crossing the line.  Those documen=
ts which have now filtered to ATIS=0D=0Athen liaised to a wide variety of S=
DOs 'on behalf of NENA' are fraught with=0D=0Atechnical errors and misguide=
d assumptions.  But, when the responses to the=0D=0Aliaise attempt to point=
 out those issues, it's passed off as a derelict=0D=0Aresponse.  Further di=
scussion of the ATIS process wrt this isn't warranted=0D=0Ain this venue.  =
But my point is that it seems to be common thread with what=0D=0Awe're expe=
riencing in the IETF.=0D=0A=0D=0ABut, there is good in the world!=0D=0A=0D=0A=
In my obviously biased opinion, I believe an example of what has worked is=0D=
=0Athe relationship between NENA and ECRIT.  I believe that LoST/related dr=
afts=0D=0Ahave met almost all, if not all of the goals/requirements of the =
NENA LTD=0D=0Awg.  I did get a little testy when I (possibly mistakenly) se=
nsed a late=0D=0Achange in requirements, but I sense that has resolved itse=
lf.  I've also=0D=0Awitnessed a willingness by the LoST team to make adjust=
ments to the solution=0D=0Aas we/NENA gain implementation experience.  If t=
hat isn't an example of how=0D=0Athings should work, then all hope has vani=
shed.=0D=0A=0D=0ASo, I ask that you compare the difference between the NENA=
-ECRIT=0D=0Arelationship and the NENA-GeoPriv relationship, what is your op=
inion of what=0D=0Aworked/didn't work/isn't working/and why=3F=0D=0A=0D=0AY=
es, NENA does count!  Threats of regulation do not count!=0D=0A=0D=0A-Marc-=0D=
=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A> -----Original Message-----=0D=0A> From: Dawson=
, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@andrew.com]=20=0D=0A> Sent: Thursday, March =
15, 2007 7:47 AM=0D=0A> To: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; H=
annes=20=0D=0A> Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> Subject: RE: [Geopriv] RE=
: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) m=
eant that ATIS=20=0D=0A> works with NENA specifications. NENA is not an acc=
redited SDO=20=0D=0A> - in the same sense, for example, that ATIS is accred=
ited and=20=0D=0A> able to publish American National Standards. Of course, =
that=20=0D=0A> doesn't prevent NENA from publishing referencable documents.=
=20=0D=0A> The E2 interface specification used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a =0D=
=0A> NENA document and, as ever, the i2 architecture specification=20=0D=0A=
> is a NENA document.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> I don't think there's anything presc=
riptive about how the=20=0D=0A> work of NENA interacts with other SDOs. I t=
hink it's best=20=0D=0A> understood in terms of the general role of NENA - =
which is to=20=0D=0A> provide a national consensus view on how the elements=
 of the=20=0D=0A> emergency service fit together. This ends up covering=20=0D=
=0A> everything from devices through access and core networks, and=20=0D=0A=
> into the emergency network elements - the routers, call=20=0D=0A> centers=
, and ALI and ANI databases.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> This is particularly importan=
t in an environment such as the=20=0D=0A> US which is extremely devolved wi=
th multiple independent=20=0D=0A> parties operating at every level and ever=
y function. Without=20=0D=0A> a body like NENA it would all deteriorate int=
o chaos -=20=0D=0A> despite how it seems to some, that's not what it is now=
=2E :)=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> It's good to look at a case study.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=
 NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA=20=0D=0A> J-STD-036 s=
pecification for phase 2 wireless which=20=0D=0A> subsequently formed the d=
eployment model for how the FCC=20=0D=0A> mandate for wireless E-9-1-1 shou=
ld be satisfied. This=20=0D=0A> consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2. There=
 are even=20=0D=0A> parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification called NA-ESRK=
 and=20=0D=0A> NA-ESRD (the NA part stands for North American) - though the=
y=20=0D=0A> do actually have generic utility.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> A typical ch=
ain of influence would go along the lines that US=20=0D=0A> carriers need t=
o meet some regulatory requirement for which=20=0D=0A> definitions originat=
ing or influenced by NENA form the model=20=0D=0A> for deployment. The carr=
iers need their vendors to support=20=0D=0A> the functionality associated w=
ith the model. Both the vendors=20=0D=0A> and the carriers participate in t=
he SDOs governing the=20=0D=0A> specifications for the network elements inv=
olved and=20=0D=0A> subsequently influence what those specifications look l=
ike.=20=0D=0A> To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications a=
s=20=0D=0A> an extended phenotype of the significance and influence of=20=0D=
=0A> the US market and the role of NENA in that market.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> Do=
es that make sense=3F I'm not aware that there are any strict=20=0D=0A> def=
initions for the relationship between NENA and other SDOs.=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A>=
 Cheers,=0D=0A> Martin=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> -----Original Message-----=0D=0A> F=
rom: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]=0D=0A> Sent:=
 Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM=0D=0A> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hanne=
s Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=
=0A>=20=0D=0A> Hi Martin,=20=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> what do you mean by "ATIS"=3F=0D=
=0A>=20=0D=0A> You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I shoul=
d=20=0D=0A> have included ATIS in the list of SDOs=3F=20=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> C=
iao=0D=0A> Hannes=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----=0D=
=0A> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]=0D=0A> > Gesen=
det: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28=0D=0A> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOP=
RIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> =
> ATIS=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > -----Original Message-----=0D=0A> > From: Hanne=
s Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=0D=0A> > Sent: Thursday, Ma=
rch 15, 2007 5:41 AM=0D=0A> > To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT=0D=0A> > Subject: [Ecrit] =
NENA=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Hi all,=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > I would like to bett=
er understand the work done by NENA.=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Which SDOs are go=
ing to make use (or is already used) of=20=0D=0A> the work done=20=0D=0A> >=
 by NENA=3F=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Consider the following SDOs, as an example=0D=
=0A> > - 3GPP=0D=0A> > - 3GPP2=0D=0A> > - Wimax=0D=0A> > - Wifi Alliance=0D=
=0A> > - DSL Forum=0D=0A> > - ETSI TISPAN=0D=0A> > - CableLabs=0D=0A> >=20=0D=
=0A> > Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being=20=0D=0A=
> developed=20=0D=0A> > in=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > these SDOs I would like to =
also understand how the NENA=20=0D=0A> work going to=20=0D=0A> > be=0D=0A> =
>=20=0D=0A> > used on the Internet=3F=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > Ciao=0D=0A> > Ha=
nnes=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > _____________________________________=
__________=0D=0A> > Ecrit mailing list=0D=0A> > Ecrit@ietf.org=0D=0A> > htt=
ps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit=0D=0A> >=20=0D=0A> > ____________=
___________________________________=0D=0A> > Geopriv mailing list=0D=0A> > =
Geopriv@ietf.org=0D=0A> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv=0D=
=0A> >=20=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> _______________________________________________=0D=
=0A> Geopriv mailing list=0D=0A> Geopriv@ietf.org=0D=0A> https://www1.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv=0D=0A>=20=0D=0A> -----------------------------=
---------------------------------=0D=0A> ----------------------------------=0D=
=0A> This message is for the designated recipient only and may=20=0D=0A> co=
ntain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20=0D=0A>=
 If you have received it in error, please notify the sender=20=0D=0A> immed=
iately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of=20=0D=0A> this ema=
il is prohibited.=0D=0A> --------------------------------------------------=
------------=0D=0A> ----------------------------------=0D=0A> [mf2]=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A>=20=0D=0A> _______________________________________________=0D=0A> Geopr=
iv mailing list=0D=0A> Geopriv@ietf.org=0D=0A> https://www1.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/geopriv=0D=0A=0D=0A---------------------------------------------=
---------------------------------------------------=0D=0AThis message is fo=
r the designated recipient only and may=0D=0Acontain privileged, proprietar=
y, or otherwise private information. =20=0D=0AIf you have received it in er=
ror, please notify the sender=0D=0Aimmediately and delete the original.  An=
y unauthorized use of=0D=0Athis email is prohibited.=0D=0A-----------------=
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----=0D=0A[mf2]=0D=0A

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Subject: [Ecrit] IETF ECRIT / IEEE Meeting @ IETF#68: Room Tyrolka 
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Hi all,

we got a room, namely Tyrolka, for your meeting on Monday. It will hold 
around 40 person (the room setting is u-shaped).

Ciao
Hannes


Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I wanted to inform you that we picked
>
> *19th March 2007 (Monday)
> 11:30 - 13:00
>
> *for our meeting (based on the preference indicated on the Wiki page). 
> I am still waiting for the room reservation. *
>
> *Ciao
> Hannes
>
>


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From: "Carl Reed OGC Account" <creed@opengeospatial.org>
To: "Tschofenig, Hannes" <hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com>,
	"Dawson, Martin" <Martin.Dawson@andrew.com>,
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Subject: Re: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 09:53:02 -0600
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Errors-To: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org

Hannes -

A really interesting question - especially from the perspective of locati=
on=20
payloads and location provision. We in the OGC struggle with this issue o=
n a=20
regular basis. This is perhaps why the OGC has formal agreements with abo=
ut=20
a dozen SDOs and other organizations that develop specifications in the=20
location/geospatial space. And even with lots of coordination and=20
collaboration, sometimes folks go their own way - which plays havoc with=20
consistent architecture and infrastructure. And we find new efforts cropp=
ing=20
up on a regular basis.

That said, from a standards "professional" perspective, I am very pleased=
=20
with how the IETF GeoPRIV collaboration and standard work is progressing.=
 I=20
know that there is a bit of concern about discord in some of the recent=20
discussions . . . but compared to some standards discussions I have=20
witnessed over the years, the ones in the GeoPRIV WG are consistently=20
professional and well mannered!

Regards

Carl

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Tschofenig, Hannes" <hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com>
To: "Dawson, Martin" <Martin.Dawson@andrew.com>; "DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLAB=
S"=20
<mdolly@att.com>; "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>; "GEOPR=
IV"=20
<geopriv@ietf.org>; "ECRIT" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:57 AM
Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA


> Hi Martin,
>
> Thanks for the quick response.
>
> I am trying to figure out what the impact to the Internet is if many SD=
Os=20
> develop their own specifications for emergency services without=20
> considering the NENA work and I am particularly referring to the SDOs t=
hat=20
> potentially impact real networks.
>
> More comments below:
>
>> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Dawson, Martin [mailto:Martin.Dawson@andrew.com]
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 12:47
>> An: Tschofenig, Hannes; DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes
>> Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
>> Betreff: RE: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>>
>> I think Martin (the other Martin, not me) meant that ATIS
>> works with NENA specifications. NENA is not an accredited SDO
>> - in the same sense, for example, that ATIS is accredited and
>> able to publish American National Standards. Of course, that
>> doesn't prevent NENA from publishing referencable documents.
>> The E2 interface specification used for wireless E-9-1-1 is a
>> NENA document and, as ever, the i2 architecture specification
>> is a NENA document.
>>
>> I don't think there's anything prescriptive about how the
>> work of NENA interacts with other SDOs. I think it's best
>> understood in terms of the general role of NENA - which is to
>> provide a national consensus view on how the elements of the
>> emergency service fit together. This ends up covering
>> everything from devices through access and core networks, and
>> into the emergency network elements - the routers, call
>> centers, and ALI and ANI databases.
>>
>> This is particularly important in an environment such as the
>> US which is extremely devolved with multiple independent
>> parties operating at every level and every function. Without
>> a body like NENA it would all deteriorate into chaos -
>> despite how it seems to some, that's not what it is now. :)
>>
>> It's good to look at a case study.
>>
>> NENA had a lot of influence on, for example, the TIA
>> J-STD-036 specification for phase 2 wireless which
>> subsequently formed the deployment model for how the FCC
>> mandate for wireless E-9-1-1 should be satisfied. This
>> consequently had an impact on 3GPP/2.
>
>>From the last SDO workshop I got the impression that the 3GPP2 actually=
=20
>>had nothing expect for a few high-level requirements. Since a lot of th=
e=20
>>3GPP2 work is taken from 3GPP it might well be possible that they also=20
>>recycle the emergency services work.
>
> Maybe they have developed a solution already. Maybe you can point to th=
e=20
> relevant documents.
>
> There are even
>> parameters in the 3GPP MAP specification called NA-ESRK and
>> NA-ESRD (the NA part stands for North American) - though they
>> do actually have generic utility.
>
> But the NENA work is more than just these parameters.
>
>>
>> A typical chain of influence would go along the lines that US
>> carriers need to meet some regulatory requirement for which
>> definitions originating or influenced by NENA form the model
>> for deployment. The carriers need their vendors to support
>> the functionality associated with the model. Both the vendors
>> and the carriers participate in the SDOs governing the
>> specifications for the network elements involved and
>> subsequently influence what those specifications look like.
>> To a large extent, artefacts turn up in SDO specifications as
>> an extended phenotype of the significance and influence of
>> the US market and the role of NENA in that market.
>
> But it is not really good if the NENA work does not appear in the=20
> standardization work of other SDOs.
>
>>
>> Does that make sense? I'm not aware that there are any strict
>> definitions for the relationship between NENA and other SDOs.
> It makes sense but to me it looks like the recipe for a non-working glo=
bal=20
> emergency service solution since there are too many players involved th=
at=20
> want to develop their own story.
>
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tschofenig, Hannes [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@siemens.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, 15 March 2007 9:31 PM
>> To: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS; Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
>> Subject: AW: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> what do you mean by "ATIS"?
>>
>> You mean that ATIS is using the NENA architecture or I should
>> have included ATIS in the list of SDOs?
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
>> > Von: DOLLY, MARTIN C, ATTLABS [mailto:mdolly@att.com]
>> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. M=E4rz 2007 11:28
>> > An: Hannes Tschofenig; GEOPRIV; ECRIT
>> > Betreff: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
>> >
>> > ATIS
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:41 AM
>> > To: GEOPRIV; ECRIT
>> > Subject: [Ecrit] NENA
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I would like to better understand the work done by NENA.
>> >
>> > Which SDOs are going to make use (or is already used) of the
>> > work done
>> > by NENA?
>> >
>> > Consider the following SDOs, as an example
>> > - 3GPP
>> > - 3GPP2
>> > - Wimax
>> > - Wifi Alliance
>> > - DSL Forum
>> > - ETSI TISPAN
>> > - CableLabs
>> >
>> > Since there is often a mismatch between the standards being
>> > developed in
>> >
>> > these SDOs I would like to also understand how the NENA work
>> > going to be
>> >
>> > used on the Internet?
>> >
>> > Ciao
>> > Hannes
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Ecrit mailing list
>> > Ecrit@ietf.org
>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Geopriv mailing list
>> > Geopriv@ietf.org
>> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geopriv mailing list
>> Geopriv@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------------------------
>> This message is for the designated recipient only and may
>> contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information.
>> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
>> immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
>> this email is prohibited.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------------------------
>> [mf2]
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>=20


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Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:09:33 +0100
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Subject: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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Hi all,

next Monday we are going to have our information sharing event with the 
IEEE. I went through their documents to get a better idea of their work 
and I noticed that the IEEE is working on solutions for unauthenticated 
network access. This essentially allows an emergency caller without 
credentials to access an IEEE 802 network. (Hence, I am not talking 
about unauthenticated emergency calls at the SIP layer).

The support for  unauthenticated network access raises a number of 
security challenges including architectural questions.

I was wondering whether there are some regulatory requirements that 
require an architecture to support this type of functionality.

Ciao
Hannes


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 16 10:57:07 2007
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Subject: Re: [Geopriv] RE: [Ecrit] NENA
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 10:56:40 -0400
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On Mar 15, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> To get a liaison out, we fill out a form, hold a semi-official =20
> vote, send it to the =93tech lead team=94, which includes Roger.  They =
=20
> approve it, and then Roger sends it.  So far, the average time to =20
> get through that process is between one and three months, although =20
> everyone agrees that is ridiculous, and we should be able to get it =20=

> down to a couple of weeks.

All I ever wanted to do was write software.  How did I get myself =20
into this mess?

-andy=

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Sun Mar 18 07:37:42 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] [Fwd: IEEE 802.11 Review Comments on IETF ECRIT Framework
 internet draft]
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------030506000101080307060708
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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Hi all,

IEEE members have provided a response to our review request.
I would like to thank them for their quick response.

Ciao
Hannes


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	IEEE 802.11 Review Comments on IETF ECRIT Framework internet 
draft
Date: 	Sun, 18 Mar 2007 02:06:37 -0700
From: 	Dorothy Stanley <DStanley@arubanetworks.com>
To: 	<brc@zurich.ibm.com>, "Hannes Tschofenig" 
<Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, <marc.linsner@cisco.com>, 
<jon.peterson@neustar.biz>, <fluffy@cisco.com>
CC: 	<stuart@ok-brit.com>, "Dorothy Stanley" 
<DStanley@arubanetworks.com>, <hworstell@research.att.com>, 
<apetrick@WIDEFI.COM>, <ietf-liaisons@ietf.org>, "McCann, Stephen" 
<stephen.mccann@roke.co.uk>



Hannes,

 

The attached document, 11-07-0476-01-0000-liaison-response-to-ietf-ecrit
contains the response to your request that the IEEE 802.11 Working Group
provide comments on the IETF ECRIT Framework for Emergency Calling in
Internet Multimedia internet draft, available at 
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework/draft-ietf-ecr
it-
<http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework/draft-ietf-ec
rit-framework-00.txt> framework-00.txt
<http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-framework/draft-ietf-ec
rit-framework-00.txt>  .

 

The attached response document was approved by the IEEE 802.11 Working
Group on March 16th, 2007 and is also available at 
ftp://ftp.802wirelessworld.com/11/07/11-07-0476-01-0000-liaison-response
-to-ietf-ecrit.doc  . 

 

Please let me know if there are further questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Dorothy Stanley

Liaison from IEEE 802.11 to IETF

 

-----------------

Dorothy Stanley

Aruba Networks

630-363-1389 (cell) 630-836-9734 (office)

 




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Subject: [Ecrit] IETF ECRIT / IEEE Meeting @ IETF#68: Slides available
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Hi all,

the slides are available at:
http://www.tschofenig.priv.at/twiki/pub/EmergencyServices/IetfEcritRoadMap/11-07-0505-01-0000-emergency-services-shortened-tutorial.ppt

Ciao
Hannes

Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> we got a room, namely Tyrolka, for your meeting on Monday. It will 
> hold around 40 person (the room setting is u-shaped).
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
> Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I wanted to inform you that we picked
>>
>> *19th March 2007 (Monday)
>> 11:30 - 13:00
>>
>> *for our meeting (based on the preference indicated on the Wiki 
>> page). I am still waiting for the room reservation. *
>>
>> *Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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Please send your presentation to us.

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Subject: [Ecrit] 
	IETF ECRIT / IEEE Meeting @ IETF#68: Monday, 19th March 2007,
	11:30 - 13:00, Room Tyrolka
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Update......

For those worried about eating....there will be pick-up food available in
the lobby level of the hotel.  Please visit there and bring the food to room
Tyrolka on the Mezzanine level.

Agenda:

802.11 - Dorothy 
802.16 - DJ 
802.1 / LLDP MED - Peter, Dan 





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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 10:46:29 2007
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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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Hello,

I do not think this question is relevant from ieee point of view.=20

But as ieee technology is used to deploy commercial cellular radio
networks (e.g. wimax), which may (or are already) inherit the current
existing requirement of being possible to place an emergency call using
a phone without a SIM card (i.e. no credentials), I think it is natural
that ieee is going to provide a solution of satisfying the requirement.

Gabor
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:10 PM
To: ECRIT
Subject: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access

Hi all,

next Monday we are going to have our information sharing event with the
IEEE. I went through their documents to get a better idea of their work
and I noticed that the IEEE is working on solutions for unauthenticated
network access. This essentially allows an emergency caller without
credentials to access an IEEE 802 network. (Hence, I am not talking
about unauthenticated emergency calls at the SIP layer).

The support for  unauthenticated network access raises a number of
security challenges including architectural questions.

I was wondering whether there are some regulatory requirements that
require an architecture to support this type of functionality.

Ciao
Hannes


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 11:02:47 2007
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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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Okay, but please understand the current situation.

The PSAPs have now lived with the "uninitialized device" problem for several
years. The current considered position is that the cure is worse than the
problem.  The number of legitimate emergency calls from uninitialized phones
is infinitesimally small.  Most PSAPs can go a year without one.

The number of prank calls is huge.  In many PSAPs, it's their largest source
of nuisance calls.  They are NOT eager to have more such calls.

Nevertheless, there is presently a regulator requirement in some countries
to support them on mobile phones.  There are some carriers who believe that
802.11 (or whatever) wireless networks which they support seamless roaming
to will need to allow them to meet their regulatory obligations when
uninitialized devices are on such networks.

However, that is ALL that is needed, and you should, I believe, design
support for such a circumstance as narrow as possible.  It only needs to
work on networks which the carriers have roaming agreements with, and it
ONLY needs to work for their devices.  I would also strongly urge you to
copy whatever identity information the device can supply and carry it
through, so that we have as much information as possible to track down prank
callers.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com [mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:45 AM
> To: Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I do not think this question is relevant from ieee point of view.
> 
> But as ieee technology is used to deploy commercial cellular radio
> networks (e.g. wimax), which may (or are already) inherit the current
> existing requirement of being possible to place an emergency call using
> a phone without a SIM card (i.e. no credentials), I think it is natural
> that ieee is going to provide a solution of satisfying the requirement.
> 
> Gabor
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:10 PM
> To: ECRIT
> Subject: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> next Monday we are going to have our information sharing event with the
> IEEE. I went through their documents to get a better idea of their work
> and I noticed that the IEEE is working on solutions for unauthenticated
> network access. This essentially allows an emergency caller without
> credentials to access an IEEE 802 network. (Hence, I am not talking
> about unauthenticated emergency calls at the SIP layer).
> 
> The support for  unauthenticated network access raises a number of
> security challenges including architectural questions.
> 
> I was wondering whether there are some regulatory requirements that
> require an architecture to support this type of functionality.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 11:27:36 2007
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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:26:41 -0400
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In the IP environment, we have two identities (L2/L3 and L7), instead  
of one. Thus, I think we have more design freedom. As an example,  
consider a model where a wireless (802.16 or otherwise) ISP has  
agreements with a number of modest number of consumer VSPs that allow  
unauthenticated L2 calls, with the assumption that these VSPs have  
strong customer identity information. This customer identity  
information is conveyed to the PSAP, either literally or in some  
discoverable format should the call pose problems. (In other words,  
where anonymous emergency calls are a requirement, a PSAP can get a  
court order if there's a crank call to map the call-ID to an  
indictable identity.)

Sure, it discriminates against small VSPs, non-domestic VSPs or the  
SIP-proxy-at-home crowd, but I'd rather allow L7-authenticated  
emergency call to a larger population than not at all. I'm guessing  
that you'd get 90%+ of all possible callers with fewer than a dozen  
VSPs. Naturally, nothing prevents customers of these VSPs make calls  
as authenticated L2 users.

Given the widespread and increasing availability of open-access  
hotspots, I do see this as a more generic problem. Would you suggest  
preventing emergency calls from such networks? How would you enforce  
that?

Henning

On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:

> Okay, but please understand the current situation.
>
> The PSAPs have now lived with the "uninitialized device" problem  
> for several
> years. The current considered position is that the cure is worse  
> than the
> problem.  The number of legitimate emergency calls from  
> uninitialized phones
> is infinitesimally small.  Most PSAPs can go a year without one.
>
> The number of prank calls is huge.  In many PSAPs, it's their  
> largest source
> of nuisance calls.  They are NOT eager to have more such calls.
>
> Nevertheless, there is presently a regulator requirement in some  
> countries
> to support them on mobile phones.  There are some carriers who  
> believe that
> 802.11 (or whatever) wireless networks which they support seamless  
> roaming
> to will need to allow them to meet their regulatory obligations when
> uninitialized devices are on such networks.
>
> However, that is ALL that is needed, and you should, I believe, design
> support for such a circumstance as narrow as possible.  It only  
> needs to
> work on networks which the carriers have roaming agreements with,  
> and it
> ONLY needs to work for their devices.  I would also strongly urge  
> you to
> copy whatever identity information the device can supply and carry it
> through, so that we have as much information as possible to track  
> down prank
> callers.
>
> Brian
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com [mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com]
>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:45 AM
>> To: Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net; ecrit@ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I do not think this question is relevant from ieee point of view.
>>
>> But as ieee technology is used to deploy commercial cellular radio
>> networks (e.g. wimax), which may (or are already) inherit the current
>> existing requirement of being possible to place an emergency call  
>> using
>> a phone without a SIM card (i.e. no credentials), I think it is  
>> natural
>> that ieee is going to provide a solution of satisfying the  
>> requirement.
>>
>> Gabor
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:10 PM
>> To: ECRIT
>> Subject: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> next Monday we are going to have our information sharing event  
>> with the
>> IEEE. I went through their documents to get a better idea of their  
>> work
>> and I noticed that the IEEE is working on solutions for  
>> unauthenticated
>> network access. This essentially allows an emergency caller without
>> credentials to access an IEEE 802 network. (Hence, I am not talking
>> about unauthenticated emergency calls at the SIP layer).
>>
>> The support for  unauthenticated network access raises a number of
>> security challenges including architectural questions.
>>
>> I was wondering whether there are some regulatory requirements that
>> require an architecture to support this type of functionality.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


_______________________________________________
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> work for their devices.  I would also strongly urge you to 
> copy whatever identity information the device can supply and 
> carry it through, so that we have as much information as 
> possible to track down prank callers.

Ah yes, I can see it now.  Buy your Linksys 802.11 phone at the Walmart gun
counter so they can register your mac address with the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms.

:^)

-Marc-

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 11:44:15 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
To: "'Henning Schulzrinne'" <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:43:24 -0400
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But then you are not talking about a non-initialized device.  You have a
good identity.  If you have a good identity, then I'm all for being able to
use that to make an emergency call.  The problem we are talking about is a
device that has no identity at all. 

I'm not sure how you get into a circumstance where you have a good L7
identity but an unauthenticated L2.  How does that arise?  It would seem to
me that if the ISP supports the VSP, then the device should be able to be
authorized on the L2/L3 network.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:27 AM
> To: Brian Rosen
> Cc: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> In the IP environment, we have two identities (L2/L3 and L7), instead
> of one. Thus, I think we have more design freedom. As an example,
> consider a model where a wireless (802.16 or otherwise) ISP has
> agreements with a number of modest number of consumer VSPs that allow
> unauthenticated L2 calls, with the assumption that these VSPs have
> strong customer identity information. This customer identity
> information is conveyed to the PSAP, either literally or in some
> discoverable format should the call pose problems. (In other words,
> where anonymous emergency calls are a requirement, a PSAP can get a
> court order if there's a crank call to map the call-ID to an
> indictable identity.)
> 
> Sure, it discriminates against small VSPs, non-domestic VSPs or the
> SIP-proxy-at-home crowd, but I'd rather allow L7-authenticated
> emergency call to a larger population than not at all. I'm guessing
> that you'd get 90%+ of all possible callers with fewer than a dozen
> VSPs. Naturally, nothing prevents customers of these VSPs make calls
> as authenticated L2 users.
> 
> Given the widespread and increasing availability of open-access
> hotspots, I do see this as a more generic problem. Would you suggest
> preventing emergency calls from such networks? How would you enforce
> that?
> 
> Henning
> 
> On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:01 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> 
> > Okay, but please understand the current situation.
> >
> > The PSAPs have now lived with the "uninitialized device" problem
> > for several
> > years. The current considered position is that the cure is worse
> > than the
> > problem.  The number of legitimate emergency calls from
> > uninitialized phones
> > is infinitesimally small.  Most PSAPs can go a year without one.
> >
> > The number of prank calls is huge.  In many PSAPs, it's their
> > largest source
> > of nuisance calls.  They are NOT eager to have more such calls.
> >
> > Nevertheless, there is presently a regulator requirement in some
> > countries
> > to support them on mobile phones.  There are some carriers who
> > believe that
> > 802.11 (or whatever) wireless networks which they support seamless
> > roaming
> > to will need to allow them to meet their regulatory obligations when
> > uninitialized devices are on such networks.
> >
> > However, that is ALL that is needed, and you should, I believe, design
> > support for such a circumstance as narrow as possible.  It only
> > needs to
> > work on networks which the carriers have roaming agreements with,
> > and it
> > ONLY needs to work for their devices.  I would also strongly urge
> > you to
> > copy whatever identity information the device can supply and carry it
> > through, so that we have as much information as possible to track
> > down prank
> > callers.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com [mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:45 AM
> >> To: Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net; ecrit@ietf.org
> >> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I do not think this question is relevant from ieee point of view.
> >>
> >> But as ieee technology is used to deploy commercial cellular radio
> >> networks (e.g. wimax), which may (or are already) inherit the current
> >> existing requirement of being possible to place an emergency call
> >> using
> >> a phone without a SIM card (i.e. no credentials), I think it is
> >> natural
> >> that ieee is going to provide a solution of satisfying the
> >> requirement.
> >>
> >> Gabor
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ext Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:10 PM
> >> To: ECRIT
> >> Subject: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> next Monday we are going to have our information sharing event
> >> with the
> >> IEEE. I went through their documents to get a better idea of their
> >> work
> >> and I noticed that the IEEE is working on solutions for
> >> unauthenticated
> >> network access. This essentially allows an emergency caller without
> >> credentials to access an IEEE 802 network. (Hence, I am not talking
> >> about unauthenticated emergency calls at the SIP layer).
> >>
> >> The support for  unauthenticated network access raises a number of
> >> security challenges including architectural questions.
> >>
> >> I was wondering whether there are some regulatory requirements that
> >> require an architecture to support this type of functionality.
> >>
> >> Ciao
> >> Hannes
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ecrit mailing list
> >> Ecrit@ietf.org
> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ecrit mailing list
> >> Ecrit@ietf.org
> >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ecrit mailing list
> > Ecrit@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:

> But then you are not talking about a non-initialized device.  You  
> have a
> good identity.  If you have a good identity, then I'm all for being  
> able to
> use that to make an emergency call.  The problem we are talking  
> about is a
> device that has no identity at all.

I think part of the problem is defining "identity" and "device". In  
this particular case, the device has no identity as such; rather a  
piece of software running SIP has a L7 identity and happens to reside  
on a laptop using  a non-authenticating network.

I don't think it is helpful to conflate 'device' and 'service'. If  
they are the same, we could greatly simplify the SIPPING  
configuration discussion :-)

If we agree that authenticated means "has a traceable identity either  
at L2 or L7 (or both)", we are in agreement, but clearly,  
unauthenticated network access doesn't imply that.

>
> I'm not sure how you get into a circumstance where you have a good L7
> identity but an unauthenticated L2.  How does that arise?  It would  
> seem to
> me that if the ISP supports the VSP, then the device should be able  
> to be
> authorized on the L2/L3 network.

I gave two examples:

- 802.11 networks with no authentication (e.g., all city parks in NYC  
in the near future, Columbia University and many other universities,  
Panera Bread, non-WEP home networks with SSID linksys, corporate  
networks with 'guest' access)

- 802.16 networks that explicitly allow non-authenticated emergency  
call access, as I described in my note.

At a more basic level, this is even true for the IETF Ethernet. A few  
years ago, the Lexington airport offered Ethernet plugs on their  
lower level for free, without any authentication.


Henning




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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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Brian, 

> I'm not sure how you get into a circumstance where you have a 
> good L7 identity but an unauthenticated L2.  How does that 
> arise?  It would seem to me that if the ISP supports the VSP, 
> then the device should be able to be authorized on the L2/L3 network.

Your 802.11 phone works, Vonage is your VSP, but you don't have $6 in your
pocket to buy time on T-Mobile.


-Marc-


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 12:09:48 2007
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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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But Vonage doesn't have an agreement with T-Mobile that would permit this.
If they did, then it would work.  That was Henning's preposition.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Linsner [mailto:mlinsner@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:59 AM
> To: 'Brian Rosen'; 'Henning Schulzrinne'
> Cc: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> Brian,
> 
> > I'm not sure how you get into a circumstance where you have a
> > good L7 identity but an unauthenticated L2.  How does that
> > arise?  It would seem to me that if the ISP supports the VSP,
> > then the device should be able to be authorized on the L2/L3 network.
> 
> Your 802.11 phone works, Vonage is your VSP, but you don't have $6 in your
> pocket to buy time on T-Mobile.
> 
> 
> -Marc-


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 12:11:38 2007
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	IETF ECRIT / IEEE Meeting @ IETF#68: Monday, 19th March 2007
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Dear all,
	I listened in to today's lunch time meeting (thanks
for setting up the audio link by the away) and I just wanted
to state a couple of things from the IEEE 802.11 point of=20
view:

1)	The presentation from Dorothy is very much work in progress
      and we require assistance from the IETF to fill in some of
      our gaps.

2)	The whole issue of emergency services is now gaining momentum
      within IEEE 802 (not just specifically 802.11) and is not
      something it can ignore or dismiss.

3)	I think it might be useful for ECRIT to write a list of issues
      that IEEE 802.11 needs to respond to, as an outcome of this
      meeting.

Kind regards

Stephen

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Mon Mar 19 12:18:33 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that if the user has an identity acceptable
to the VSP, then it can be arranged that he has an identity acceptable to
the L2/L3 operator.  I think that is the direction everyone is heading, so
that a phone can roam.  For example, most pay-for-service wifi hotspots have
roaming agreements that allow subscribers to other hotspot users to use
their credentials.  The VSP could arrange the same courtesy.

Traceable identity, either by the L2/L3 operator or the L7 operator is
acceptable, I agree.

I still don't understand the examples.  They seem to already allow
unfettered L2/L3 access, but would require identity to the L7 provider.  If
the L2/L3 provider starts requiring some kind of credentials for access,
then the L7 provider can arrange such credentials as above.  I don't think
we need more than that.

The work that I'm objecting to seems to provide for any device to gain
access by declaring that it's trying to place an emergency call without
regard to whether it has L7 credentials or not.

Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 11:56 AM
> To: Brian Rosen
> Cc: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com; Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> 
> On Mar 19, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Brian Rosen wrote:
> 
> > But then you are not talking about a non-initialized device.  You
> > have a
> > good identity.  If you have a good identity, then I'm all for being
> > able to
> > use that to make an emergency call.  The problem we are talking
> > about is a
> > device that has no identity at all.
> 
> I think part of the problem is defining "identity" and "device". In
> this particular case, the device has no identity as such; rather a
> piece of software running SIP has a L7 identity and happens to reside
> on a laptop using  a non-authenticating network.
> 
> I don't think it is helpful to conflate 'device' and 'service'. If
> they are the same, we could greatly simplify the SIPPING
> configuration discussion :-)
> 
> If we agree that authenticated means "has a traceable identity either
> at L2 or L7 (or both)", we are in agreement, but clearly,
> unauthenticated network access doesn't imply that.
> 
> >
> > I'm not sure how you get into a circumstance where you have a good L7
> > identity but an unauthenticated L2.  How does that arise?  It would
> > seem to
> > me that if the ISP supports the VSP, then the device should be able
> > to be
> > authorized on the L2/L3 network.
> 
> I gave two examples:
> 
> - 802.11 networks with no authentication (e.g., all city parks in NYC
> in the near future, Columbia University and many other universities,
> Panera Bread, non-WEP home networks with SSID linksys, corporate
> networks with 'guest' access)
> 
> - 802.16 networks that explicitly allow non-authenticated emergency
> call access, as I described in my note.
> 
> At a more basic level, this is even true for the IETF Ethernet. A few
> years ago, the Lexington airport offered Ethernet plugs on their
> lower level for free, without any authentication.
> 
> 
> Henning
> 



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On Mar 19, 2007, at 12:18 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:

> Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that if the user has an identity  
> acceptable
> to the VSP, then it can be arranged that he has an identity  
> acceptable to
> the L2/L3 operator.  I think that is the direction everyone is  
> heading, so
> that a phone can roam.  For example, most pay-for-service wifi  
> hotspots have
> roaming agreements that allow subscribers to other hotspot users to  
> use
> their credentials.  The VSP could arrange the same courtesy.
>

This might be true and I'm clearly only guessing, but I'm guessing  
that it's a lot easier to simply route calls to a proxy than  
authenticate users and share IDs. The latter requires some kind of  
AAA access, and then distinguish emergency-only from fully-paid  
customers.

Given that wireless hotspots charge $10 or more a day and that VSPs  
charge $10 or so a month, I'm not quite sure that courtesy wireless  
roaming is imminent.


> Traceable identity, either by the L2/L3 operator or the L7 operator is
> acceptable, I agree.
>
> I still don't understand the examples.  They seem to already allow
> unfettered L2/L3 access, but would require identity to the L7  
> provider.  If
> the L2/L3 provider starts requiring some kind of credentials for  
> access,
> then the L7 provider can arrange such credentials as above.  I  
> don't think
> we need more than that.
>
> The work that I'm objecting to seems to provide for any device to gain
> access by declaring that it's trying to place an emergency call  
> without
> regard to whether it has L7 credentials or not.
>

I think we're in general agreement; we just need to be precise in our  
discussions. "unrestricted unauthenticated network access" is bad,  
"L7-authenticated unauthenticated network access" is ok.


> Brian


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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
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=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu]=20
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:06 AM
To: Brian Rosen
Cc: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-NET/MtView); Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net;
ecrit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access


> The work that I'm objecting to seems to provide for any device to gain

> access by declaring that it's trying to place an emergency call=20
> without regard to whether it has L7 credentials or not.
>

I think we're in general agreement; we just need to be precise in our
discussions. "unrestricted unauthenticated network access" is bad,
"L7-authenticated unauthenticated network access" is ok.


IEEE is trying to solve the "unauthenticated network access" case, not
the "unrestricted unauthenticated network access". Unauthentication here
referring to L2. Whether L-7 authentication will be required or not,
that is going to be decided by the carrier which will deploy ieee
technology for commercial VoIP services. So, if e.g. wimax is going to
use the "unauthenticated network access" solution provided by ieee, you
can ask wimax to require L-7 authentication in their specs.

Gabor


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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
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	<hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:10:11 -0400
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I continue to not understand why the credentials used for L7 access are not
acceptable for L2 access.  They are for WiFi now.  Why would you supply a
solution that is not as good as they do today?

Today, the carrier wishing to provide L2/L3 authenticated access on a
partner's WiFi network would provide (something like) a RADIUS
authentication of the subscriber username/password collected by the partner.
The partner would only provide access if the user correctly authenticated
via the carrier's RADIUS server.

Brian



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com [mailto:Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: hgs@cs.columbia.edu; br@brianrosen.net
> Cc: Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:06 AM
> To: Brian Rosen
> Cc: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-NET/MtView); Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net;
> ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
> 
> 
> > The work that I'm objecting to seems to provide for any device to gain
> 
> > access by declaring that it's trying to place an emergency call
> > without regard to whether it has L7 credentials or not.
> >
> 
> I think we're in general agreement; we just need to be precise in our
> discussions. "unrestricted unauthenticated network access" is bad,
> "L7-authenticated unauthenticated network access" is ok.
> 
> 
> IEEE is trying to solve the "unauthenticated network access" case, not
> the "unrestricted unauthenticated network access". Unauthentication here
> referring to L2. Whether L-7 authentication will be required or not,
> that is going to be decided by the carrier which will deploy ieee
> technology for commercial VoIP services. So, if e.g. wimax is going to
> use the "unauthenticated network access" solution provided by ieee, you
> can ask wimax to require L-7 authentication in their specs.
> 
> Gabor


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Please remember that the WiMax provider may not necessarily be the  
VoIP provider. The case where ISP = VSP is the easy one. We certainly  
don't want to imply this.

On Mar 19, 2007, at 2:58 PM, <Gabor.Bajko@nokia.com> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu]
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:06 AM
> To: Brian Rosen
> Cc: Bajko Gabor (Nokia-NET/MtView); Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net;
> ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated Network Access
>
>
>> The work that I'm objecting to seems to provide for any device to  
>> gain
>
>> access by declaring that it's trying to place an emergency call
>> without regard to whether it has L7 credentials or not.
>>
>
> I think we're in general agreement; we just need to be precise in our
> discussions. "unrestricted unauthenticated network access" is bad,
> "L7-authenticated unauthenticated network access" is ok.
>
>
> IEEE is trying to solve the "unauthenticated network access" case, not
> the "unrestricted unauthenticated network access". Unauthentication  
> here
> referring to L2. Whether L-7 authentication will be required or not,
> that is going to be decided by the carrier which will deploy ieee
> technology for commercial VoIP services. So, if e.g. wimax is going to
> use the "unauthenticated network access" solution provided by ieee,  
> you
> can ask wimax to require L-7 authentication in their specs.
>
> Gabor
>


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On Mar 19, 2007, at 5:10 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:

> I continue to not understand why the credentials used for L7 access  
> are not
> acceptable for L2 access.  They are for WiFi now.  Why would you  
> supply a
> solution that is not as good as they do today?

Do know any any WiFi credentials that can be used for SIP or vice versa?

It's theoretically possible, but requires a significant change in AAA  
mechanisms, for example.

>
> Today, the carrier wishing to provide L2/L3 authenticated access on a
> partner's WiFi network would provide (something like) a RADIUS
> authentication of the subscriber username/password collected by the  
> partner.
> The partner would only provide access if the user correctly  
> authenticated
> via the carrier's RADIUS server.
>

This requires a full-fledged business relationship, given the high  
relative charges for WiFi access. If it's so easy, why hasn't Vonage  
done this already, say?

Henning


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Brian, 

> 
> I continue to not understand why the credentials used for L7 
> access are not acceptable for L2 access.  They are for WiFi 
> now.  Why would you supply a solution that is not as good as 
> they do today?

Can you provide an example of L7 service credentials used for
roaming/multi-carrier L2 access?  I'm only familiar with those like IPass
that is strictly L2/L3.  IPass doesn't buy you much in the L7 world.

-Marc-

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Subject: [Ecrit] AD Draft Reviews
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Hi all,

during today's WG chairs lunch presentation about the PROTO writeup Marc 
and myself checked the I-D Tracker and noticed that Jon's comments are 
not available in the tracker and are therefore not visible to ECRIT 
working group members. Jon recently did the AD review for 
draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt, 
draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn-05.txt and 
draft-ietf-ecrit-security-threats-03.txt. The draft editors quickly 
reacted and responded to the review comments to publish a draft update. 
An update to draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt, and to 
draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn-05.txt was published. An update to 
draft-ietf-ecrit-security-threats-03.txt will be published within the 
next few days.

The PROTO shepherd will post the AD review and the proposed resolution. 
We would like to make sure that you feel comfortable with the changes.

Ciao
Hannes & Marc


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 21 08:24:24 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] [Fwd: AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn-05.txt]
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Hi all,

I am the PROTO shepherd for draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn. You can find 
Jon's review in the attachment. Henning published a draft update. Here 
is the diff version: 
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn/draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn-06-from-05.diff.html

Here is the list of updates:
* Updated Registration Template
* Added introduction to the IANA Considerations section for better 
readability.
* Minor update to the introduction section

Ciao
Hannes

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn-05.txt
Date: 	Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:31:11 -0500
From: 	Peterson, Jon <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
To: 	<hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu>
CC: 	Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, Marc Linsner 
<marc.linsner@cisco.com>



Very nice document, in good shape.

Given that the urn-nid review was performed some time ago for the service URN, I assume that any outstanding issues from that review were already incorporated here. 

Nit in the Introduction, the first citation of the SIP reference does not coincide with the first use of the term.

Also nit in the Intro, end of the 5th to last paragraph, "Rather, protocols would carry the service URN described here, allowing universal identification." - it's unclear from the preceding paragraph what "rather" is intended to contrast.

In Section 3, I note that "Declared registrant of the namespace" is still "TBD". I assume we would make the organization the ECRIT WG and assign Henning as the responsible entity?

I think the IANA Considerations section might be a little difficult for IANA to parse. In Section 4 (before we get into the subsections), please do a sort of an overview - explicitly direct the IANA to create a new registry for "Service URN Labels" which will be initially populated with the values given in 4.4. Furthermore note that the definitions of those initially populated values are given in 4.2 and 4.3. Finally, state that the rules that are to be followed for handling new registrations in the "Service URN Labels" registry are given in Section 4.1. 

Finally, Section 4 should note that this document registers a new URN scheme and that the registration template for that scheme is given in Section 3. Again, might seem obvious, but best to be explicit.

A note on the last sentence of the Sec Cons - the threats document does in fact characterize itself as investigating threats related to the "marketing" of signals (including the service URN), not just the mapping protocol. It would be appropriate to point to [18] more generally as a source of security considerations for use of the service URN, the mapping protocol aside.

- J


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Subject: [Ecrit] [Fwd: AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt]
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Hi all,

I am the PROTO shepherd for draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn. You can find 
Jon's review in the attachment. Henning published a draft update. Here 
is the diff version:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements/draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13-from-12.diff.html

Here is the list of updates:
* Update to the introduction
* Terminology: Changed "Internet Attachment Provider (IAP)" to "Internet 
Access Provider (IAP)"; Updated "Emergency Service Routing Proxy (ESRP)" 
term
* Editorial change to Lo5
* Deleted requirement Ma9 regarding "URI alternate contact"
* Clarified Ma15
* Deleted requirement Ma18 regarding "Alternate mapping sources"
* Boilerplate update

Scanning through the diff I noticed two nits:
* The intended status of the document is not "Standards Track"
* I-D.hardie-ecrit-lost reference needs to be replaced with 
I-D.ietf-ecrit-lost

Ciao
Hannes


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt
Date: 	Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:30:00 -0500
From: 	Peterson, Jon <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
To: 	<hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu>, <rmarshall@telecomsys.com>
CC: 	Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, Marc Linsner 
<marc.linsner@cisco.com>



Document is in fine shape. You may need a pass to meet current I-D nits constraints introduced since it was last issued.

I expected the last paragraph in Section 1 to have an additional sentence saying something to the effect that the latter use (displaying location information at the PSAP) is orthogonal to the mapping protocol problem and the scope of this document.

3.2 - The term "Internet Attachment Provider" is not a common one, and doesn't seem to be distinguished from the more common concept of an access network. I would suggest that "access network" at least be provided as a synonym in the definition.

3.4 - I'm not sure what the need is to suggest that the ESRP function might be performed by a B2BUA. At a high level, I suppose I see the mapping client function as one that could be performed by a number of entities, including entities that instantiate the SIP proxy role and the SIP user agent client role. I think language to that effect would be preferable to suggesting that there is some motivation for pairing the mapping client function with a B2BUA.

3.6 - This sentence is broken:    

	(Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific
      (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) contains the
      address of the PSAP or other emergency service. 

after the im: citation, you probably want the words: "identifier which"

In Section 6, why is Lo5 called "Validation resolution"? The description of the requirement doesn't seem to relate to validation or resolution, as far as I can tell. "Additional Information" or something might be a better name for this requirement.

In Section 8, Ma11 uses the seemingly innocuous name "URI properties" to provide requirements that seem to contradict Ma8. If the mapping protocol is going to return multiple PSAP URIs as described in Ma11, there should be a story stronger than "local policy" to meet the requirement of Ma8. You might want to find a better name for Ma11 than "URI properties", too.

Also in 8, how is Ma15 different from Ma18?

- J


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Subject: RE: [Ecrit] [Fwd: AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt]
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Hannes:
Clarification: I think what we're talking about is the
draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements, (rather than service-urn).  As such, the
next version, (-14), will at least fix the two nits mentioned below:

>Scanning through the diff I noticed two nits:
>* The intended status of the document is not "Standards Track"

Changed this to "info"

>* I-D.hardie-ecrit-lost reference needs to be replaced with=20
>I-D.ietf-ecrit-lost

Done.

Anything else?


-roger marshall.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]=20
>Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:24 AM
>To: ECRIT
>Subject: [Ecrit] [Fwd: AD review of=20
>draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt]
>
>Hi all,
>
>I am the PROTO shepherd for draft-ietf-ecrit-service-urn. You=20
>can find Jon's review in the attachment. Henning published a=20
>draft update. Here is the diff version:
>http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements/dr
>aft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-13-from-12.diff.html
>
>Here is the list of updates:
>* Update to the introduction
>* Terminology: Changed "Internet Attachment Provider (IAP)" to=20
>"Internet Access Provider (IAP)"; Updated "Emergency Service=20
>Routing Proxy (ESRP)"=20
>term
>* Editorial change to Lo5
>* Deleted requirement Ma9 regarding "URI alternate contact"
>* Clarified Ma15
>* Deleted requirement Ma18 regarding "Alternate mapping sources"
>* Boilerplate update
>
>Scanning through the diff I noticed two nits:
>* The intended status of the document is not "Standards Track"
>* I-D.hardie-ecrit-lost reference needs to be replaced with=20
>I-D.ietf-ecrit-lost
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: 	AD review of draft-ietf-ecrit-requirements-12.txt
>Date: 	Fri, 2 Mar 2007 06:30:00 -0500
>From: 	Peterson, Jon <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
>To: 	<hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu>, <rmarshall@telecomsys.com>
>CC: 	Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>, Marc Linsner=20
><marc.linsner@cisco.com>
>
>
>
>Document is in fine shape. You may need a pass to meet current=20
>I-D nits constraints introduced since it was last issued.
>
>I expected the last paragraph in Section 1 to have an=20
>additional sentence saying something to the effect that the=20
>latter use (displaying location information at the PSAP) is=20
>orthogonal to the mapping protocol problem and the scope of=20
>this document.
>
>3.2 - The term "Internet Attachment Provider" is not a common=20
>one, and doesn't seem to be distinguished from the more common=20
>concept of an access network. I would suggest that "access=20
>network" at least be provided as a synonym in the definition.
>
>3.4 - I'm not sure what the need is to suggest that the ESRP=20
>function might be performed by a B2BUA. At a high level, I=20
>suppose I see the mapping client function as one that could be=20
>performed by a number of entities, including entities that=20
>instantiate the SIP proxy role and the SIP user agent client=20
>role. I think language to that effect would be preferable to=20
>suggesting that there is some motivation for pairing the=20
>mapping client function with a B2BUA.
>
>3.6 - This sentence is broken:   =20
>
>	(Emergency) service URL: The service URL is a protocol-specific
>      (e.g., SIP) or protocol-agnostic (e.g., im: [5]) contains the
>      address of the PSAP or other emergency service.=20
>
>after the im: citation, you probably want the words: "identifier which"
>
>In Section 6, why is Lo5 called "Validation resolution"? The=20
>description of the requirement doesn't seem to relate to=20
>validation or resolution, as far as I can tell. "Additional=20
>Information" or something might be a better name for this requirement.
>
>In Section 8, Ma11 uses the seemingly innocuous name "URI=20
>properties" to provide requirements that seem to contradict=20
>Ma8. If the mapping protocol is going to return multiple PSAP=20
>URIs as described in Ma11, there should be a story stronger=20
>than "local policy" to meet the requirement of Ma8. You might=20
>want to find a better name for Ma11 than "URI properties", too.
>
>Also in 8, how is Ma15 different from Ma18?
>
>- J
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ecrit mailing list
>Ecrit@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>


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Subject: [Ecrit] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: A Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP) based Location-to-Service Translation Protocol (LoST) Discovery Procedure
	Author(s)	: H. Schulzrinne, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt
	Pages		: 9
	Date		: 2007-3-22
	
The Location-to-Service Translation Protocol (LoST) describes an XML-
   based protocol for mapping service identifiers and geospatial or
   civic location information to service contact Uniform Resource
   Locators (URLs).  LoST servers can be located anywhere but a
   placement closer to the end host, e.g., in the access network, is
   desireable.  Such a LoST server placement provides benefits in
   disaster situations with intermittent network connectivity regarding
   the resiliency of emergency service communication.

   This document describes how a LoST client can discover a LoST server
   using the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP).

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt

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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Thu Mar 22 11:31:43 2007
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
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To: Leslie Daigle <leslie@thinkingcat.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt
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Hi Leslie,

you provided review comments for this document.
Could you please check whether you are OK with the draft update?

Here is the diff:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery/draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01-from-00.diff.html

Ciao
Hannes

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Working Group of the IETF.
>
> 	Title		: A Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP) based Location-to-Service Translation Protocol (LoST) Discovery Procedure
> 	Author(s)	: H. Schulzrinne, et al.
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt
> 	Pages		: 9
> 	Date		: 2007-3-22
> 	
> The Location-to-Service Translation Protocol (LoST) describes an XML-
>    based protocol for mapping service identifiers and geospatial or
>    civic location information to service contact Uniform Resource
>    Locators (URLs).  LoST servers can be located anywhere but a
>    placement closer to the end host, e.g., in the access network, is
>    desireable.  Such a LoST server placement provides benefits in
>    disaster situations with intermittent network connectivity regarding
>    the resiliency of emergency service communication.
>
>    This document describes how a LoST client can discover a LoST server
>    using the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP).
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of 
> the message. 
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce 
> to change your subscription settings.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the 
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After 
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then 
> "get draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html 
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-dhc-lost-discovery-01.txt".
> 	
> NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
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>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Fri Mar 23 08:18:44 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] Equivstor
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Hai,=0A=
=0A=
Can you people help me In Knowing about equivstor , which can be implemente=
d in the layer two devices ...=20=0A=
=0A=
IF SNMP is not supported..Equivstor is implemented instead of SNMP , in whi=
ch the functional equivalent is provided in the depending on the  mode of O=
peration ( Tx, Rx , Tx &Rx ) ....=0A=
=0A=
                        Destination address,Source address,Ethertype, LLDPD=
U.=0A=
=0A=
        LLDPDU Contains=20=20=20=20=0A=
        Chassis ID TLV.=0A=
=0A=
         Port ID TLV.=0A=
=0A=
         Time To Live TLV.=0A=
=0A=
         Optional TLVs Such as System Capabilities  (may be inserted in any=
 order).=0A=
=0A=
         The End Of LLDPDU TLV ( the last TLV in the LLDPDU).=0A=
=0A=
LLDP agents need to have a place to store both information about the local =
system and information they have received about remote systems=0A=
=0A=
  LLDP Entity's Data storage and retrieval is provided by the LLDP/LSAP and=
 LLC to transmit and receive LLDPDUs...=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Regards,=0A=
=0A=
Sheltan.T.T=0A=
=0A=

------=_NextPart_000_01A0_01C76D73.A1C30E10
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">=0A=
<HTML><HEAD>=0A=
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">=
=0A=
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1589" name=3DGENERATOR>=0A=
<STYLE></STYLE>=0A=
</HEAD>=0A=
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hai,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can you people help me In Knowing about <F=
ONT=20=0A=
size=3D1><STRONG><FONT color=3D#ff00ff size=3D2>equivstor</FONT></STRONG> ,=
 which can=20=0A=
be implemented in the layer two devices ... </FONT></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>=0A=
<P align=3Dleft>IF SNMP is not supported..<FONT=20=0A=
color=3D#800000><STRONG>Equivstor</STRONG> </FONT>is implemented instead of=
 SNMP ,=20=0A=
in which the functional&nbsp;equivalent is provided in the&nbsp;depending o=
n the=20=0A=
&nbsp;mode of Operation <FONT color=3D#ff0000>( Tx, Rx , Tx &amp;Rx )</FONT=
>=20=0A=
....</P></FONT></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20=0A=
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20=
=0A=
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>Destination address,Source=20=0A=
address,Ethertype,&nbsp;LLDPDU.</FONT></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=0A=
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=0A=
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; LLDPDU=20=0A=
    Contains&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>=0A=
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=0A=
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=0A=
        <P align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Chassis ID TLV.</FONT></P>=0A=
        <P align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;Port ID TLV.</FONT></P>=
=0A=
        <P align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;Time To Live TLV.</FONT=
></P>=0A=
        <P align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;Optional TLVs</FONT>=20=
=0A=
        Such&nbsp;as System Capabilities&nbsp; (may be inserted in any=20=
=0A=
        order).</P>=0A=
        <P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#0000ff>The End Of LLDPDU=20=0A=
        TLV</FONT>&nbsp;( the last TLV in the=20=0A=
  LLDPDU).</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<P dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D3><FONT=
=20=0A=
face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>LLDP agents need to have a plac=
e to store=20=0A=
both information about the local system and information they have received =
about=20=0A=
remote systems</FONT></P>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=0A=
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>LLDP Entity's Data storage and=20=0A=
  retrieval&nbsp;is provided by the LLDP/LSAP and LLC to transmit and recei=
ve=20=0A=
  LLDPDUs...</FONT></DIV>=0A=
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#ff0000=20=0A=
size=3D2>Sheltan.T.T</FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>=
=0A=

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------090207020203080603050609
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,

the chairs have sent request for reviews to VoIP providers and we have 
already received a few responses. Here is another one from the Deutsche 
Telekom.

We would like to thank Deutsche Telekom for their honest review comments.

Ciao
Hannes

--------------090207020203080603050609
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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 11:08:41 2007
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From: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
To: "'Hannes Tschofenig'" <Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net>
Subject: RE: [Ecrit] ECRIT Architecture Review by Deutsche Telekom
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:07:56 -0400
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I've looked at the review from Deutsche Telecom and have some comments.

There are three major themes to the response:
1. No one knows if the IMS emergency call support will align with the =
IETF
ecrit architecture
2. Giving endpoints location has a number of economic, operational, and
possibly legal ramifications
3. It doesn't match existing PSAP systems

In addition, there are some misconceptions about the ecrit approach.

I'd like to examine each of these in turn.

We are well aware of the issues surrounding the alignment of the IETF =
ecrit
emergency calling architecture and the 3GPP IMS architecture.  As =
members of
the work group know, there has been significant effort expended between =
IETF
and 3GPP to explore this issue.  I believe there is intent on both sides =
to
not allow the architectures to deviate, and indeed 3GPP has gone to =
great
lengths to make certain that its protocols align with IETF protocols =
where
they are appropriate.  A great many individual participants in both 3GPP =
and
IETF are committed to making sure the two architectures align.  Clearly,
getting DT behind the effort to align IMS and ecrit would be beneficial.

I would also point out that nearly every IMS system supports a raw IP =
packet
service, which typically could allow a device with, for example, a PC =
Card
to have Internet access.  With such a card plugged into any device which
routes, and has other access connections such as an Ethernet or WiFi,
regular hardwired VoIP phones could be attached to the 3GPP wireless =
network
and would work through nearly any VoIP service.  These VoIP telephones =
or
terminal adapters could reasonably be expected to conform to IETF =
protocols,
and specifically draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp (or at least the expected RFC
that it will become).  If these phones cannot place emergency calls =
because
location is not supplied in a manner the phones can use, the access =
network
may be liable. =20

It would be unreasonable to expect EVERY phone device to conform to IMS
specifications, while it would be reasonable to expect every phone =
device to
conform to IETF standards in this regard.  While IMS handsets may =
conform to
different requirements and be able to place emergency calls on any IMS
network, the cost to the carrier who supports both a raw packet service =
and
an IMS calling service will be significantly larger if there is a =
divergence
of architecture.  The ability of the access carrier to specify the
requirements of all VoIP end devices is very limited.  Warnings or other
mechanisms that disclaim support for emergency calls on such devices are
unlikely to be acceptable to regulatory authorities.

Further, there is work in several countries to specify next generation =
IP
based PSAP interfaces.  So far, the IETF standards have been looked upon
favorably, and indeed, in the United States it now seems quite certain =
that
"Next Generation 9-1-1" systems will conform to IETF standards.  In the =
U.S.
effort, there is also great interest in assuring that IMS standards and
ecrit standards align, and participants in that effort expect that they
ultimately will.

Turning now to the issues of supplying devices to endpoints, we observe =
the
quandary that has largely driven this decision: The access network and =
the
calling network do not have a relationship.  Historically, the calling
network and the access network have come from the same entity.  The =
Internet
has broken that connection.  It is possible, today, to take a device and =
use
it from nearly any access network in the world that supplies a raw =
packet
service and get to any calling network.  Since the emergency calling =
system
needs a call, there are only three choices:
1. Force relationships between access networks and calling networks to =
allow
the access network to supply the calling network with location
2. Force all access networks to support emergency calling for all =
possible
end devices, thus restricting location to the access network.
3. Force the access network to supply location to its subscriber, and =
have
the subscriber supply it to the calling network, noting that the =
endpoint is
the customer of BOTH the access network and the calling network.

Forcing relationships between calling and access networks won't scale.
There are thousands to tens of thousands of each, and any calling =
network
may have to process an emergency call originating on any access network. =
 My
usual example is a nomadic caller from Sierra Leone, using a Sierra =
Leone
VoIP service, connecting a softclient through a WiFi Access Point in a =
caf=E9
in Chicago served by a WiFi network with a DSL connection from the local
ILEC.  Trying to create a relationship between the Sierra Leone VoIP
Services Pty and any of Starbucks, T-Mobile Hotspot or AT&T (DSL) is not
feasible. You can claim this is a corner case, but it's happening NOW, =
and
there are millions of subscribers to VoIP services who are independent =
of
any access network (e.g. Vonage).  To make it work, the access network =
has
to trust the calling network that there is an emergency call, that the
putative caller is actually using the access network it is contacting, =
etc.
Further, it would be necessary to have some kind of identifier that the
calling network can determine, which is known to the access network, and =
can
be used to identify what location is needed.  Assuming NATs and VPNs, =
such
identifiers are very difficult to create, especially without the =
endpoint
directly participating.

We have looked at forcing all access providers, regardless of whether =
they
offer any kind of calling service, to have to support an emergency =
calling
service.  We have determined that this is unfeasible.  There is too much
variation in services as seen by endpoints.  For example, Next =
Generation
PSAPs are expected to allow Instant Messaging.  While the PSAP interface =
can
reasonably be restricted to SIP/SIMPLE and/or XMPP/Jabber, clients may =
have
those or AOL AIM, MSN Messenger, Yahoo and/or Skype interfaces.  The =
access
networks would have to accept a wide range of clients, but interwork to =
a
small number of PSAP interfaces.  Text, video and voice clients would =
need
to be supported.  Any form of authentication would be difficult, and =
PSAPs
do not like unauthenticated callers (although they may accept such calls
anyway).  To expect every access network to pay for the cost of =
supporting
these services seems unlikely at best.  DG worries about the cost of
supporting the location service; this would be additional costs beyond =
that.

The latter alternative, requiring access networks to give their own
subscribers their location provides the most practical answer, and also
meets the very real requirements in the IETF architecture to protect the
privacy of location.  The endpoint is the ONLY entity that is known to =
have
a formal, authenticated, contractual relationship with BOTH the access
network and the calling network.  This is always true one way or the =
other;
albeit in some networks, the endpoint has a formal relationship with a =
home
network, that network has an existing relationship with the visited =
network,
and all of the issues solved by the endpoint getting location from the
access network hold.

With respect to privacy, if the only entity that gets the location is =
the
endpoint, then it can decide who else gets it.  It could subsequently
delegate some service to serve as its location provider (e.g. presence
service), but assuming the access network is the subscribers location
service of choice is not seen as conducive to allowing users to control =
the
privacy of their own location.  We understand the economic implications =
of
this architecture.  In theory, if the endpoint has its location, it can =
give
it to anyone else, and the access network may not receive any payment.  =
It
may be permissible, in some environments, to prevent this contractually.
It=92s also quite clear that IMS standards will support endpoints =
getting
their own location and unless DT intends to prohibit this (and thus =
restrict
the range of applications that can execute on IMS endpoints), that
particular issue is moot.

With respect to PSAP interfaces, as DT well knows, there are no
international standards for TDM interfaces to PSAPs.  Every country has
their own standards.  Networks have had to cope with these issues, and =
will
continue to have to cope.  Next Generation, IP based PSAPs may not have =
such
variation.  There is reason to hope that international standards, and
probably IETF standards, will be able to be adopted worldwide for =
emergency
calling.  The benefits to DT and other carriers are obvious.  Again, the
benefits of alignment between IETF standards and 3GPP standards are =
obvious
if this occurs.  IETF does not believe it is feasible to standardize
mechanisms that will work with ALL existing TDM based emergency calling
networks.

We do observe, however, that it seems feasible to interwork most of the =
IETF
emergency calling architecture to existing standards on a case by case
basis.  The LoST based routing mechanisms may not be able to be used in =
all
cases, but the location, marking, and other components of the ecrit
architecture do seem to map fairly well into existing systems.  DT may =
wish
to look at the NENA i2 standard to see how the ecrit location =
architecture,
in particular, smoothly integrates into existing North American PSAP
networks.  The nomadic cases will fail, of course, which is a large
incentive to move to IP based PSAP interfaces that don't have the
restrictions of current networks.

Finally, the DT paper has some misconceptions about the IETF ecrit
architecture.  Most prominent among these is the assumption that there =
is
some kind of relationship between the SIP REGISTER and any other part of
emergency calling.  There is not.  It would be common for the endpoint =
to
REGISTER on boot, and it is specified that the endpoint should get =
location
at boot, and periodically thereafter, but those operations are =
independent.
The endpoint's interactions between it and the access network and =
between it
and the calling network are separate until there is an emergency call.

Some other specifics:
In point 3, DT worries about the liability of providing location when =
the
device may be corrupted.  I do not understand this issue.  The access
network has never been held liable for any other information it may =
supply
the device when it is corrupted, why would location be treated =
differently?
IMS standards permit devices to learn their location.  Would this =
engender
the same concerns?

With respect to point 4, there are some who believe that contractual
limitations may be effective in preventing location dereferences where =
there
is not a genuine emergency and no other arrangements have been made.  In
general, I do agree that when a location is dereferenced as part of an
emergency call, the LIS cannot demand any form of credential, or we are =
back
to the problem of forcing relationships between access networks and =
calling
networks.

In point 6, I do not believe the ecrit architecture would permit callers =
to
dial the PSAP directly.  The caller would use the sos urn marking, and =
route
with LoST to a URI that was the "front door" of the PSAP.  The PSAP =
could,
theoretically, restrict who can place calls through that front door, but =
as
a practical matter, as with the example of Sierra Leone VoIP services =
PTY,
the Chicago PSAP is unlikely to have some kind of authorization in place =
for
the Sierra Leone call.  The notion that calls only come from
known-in-advance, small number of domestic carriers is an anachronism of =
the
PSTN, and no longer holds on the Internet. The law may have to change to
reflect reality.  That would be up to the German regulators, of course, =
but
in my discussions with EU regulators, they seem to grasp the issues, =
even if
they wish it were not so.

Point 7 refers to what is called "Location Update".  The IETF documents
(-phoneBCP) specifically suggests that devices get location when they =
boot,
periodically thereafter, AND JUST BEFORE PLACING THE EMERGENCY CALL.  It =
is,
of course, best if the route chosen for the call is based on the current
location of the caller.  However, the IETF ecrit architecture is =
designed to
work in stressful situations (such as disasters), in which, when the
emergency call is placed, some of the infrastructure is busy or not
available.  In these circumstances, cached location should be used, in
preference to no location, or failing the call.  Although getting =
location
at boot and periodically thereafter does place some load on the location
infrastructure, it is fairly minimal (devices don't boot often, and the
update interval can be controlled by the access network).  The load is =
much
less than most location based services, and does help substantially in
disaster scenarios.  Note that in most mobile networks, it may be =
reasonable
to provide a coarse, cell site/sector based location until the emergency
call is placed if the location determination infrastructure can't =
reasonably
support more accurate location determination.

Brian






> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannes Tschofenig [mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:04 AM
> To: ECRIT
> Cc: Liess, Laura
> Subject: [Ecrit] ECRIT Architecture Review by Deutsche Telekom
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> the chairs have sent request for reviews to VoIP providers and we have
> already received a few responses. Here is another one from the =
Deutsche
> Telekom.
>=20
> We would like to thank Deutsche Telekom for their honest review =
comments.
>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes


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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Tue Mar 27 11:51:53 2007
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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] ECRIT Architecture Review by Deutsche Telekom
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:51:51 -0400
To: "Brian Rosen" <br@brianrosen.net>
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Some additional remarks inline.

>
> Forcing relationships between calling and access networks won't scale.
> There are thousands to tens of thousands of each, and any calling =20
> network
> may have to process an emergency call originating on any access =20
> network.  My
> usual example is a nomadic caller from Sierra Leone, using a Sierra =20=

> Leone
> VoIP service, connecting a softclient through a WiFi Access Point =20
> in a caf=E9
> in Chicago served by a WiFi network with a DSL connection from the =20
> local
> ILEC.  Trying to create a relationship between the Sierra Leone VoIP
> Services Pty and any of Starbucks, T-Mobile Hotspot or AT&T (DSL) =20
> is not
> feasible. You can claim this is a corner case, but it's happening =20
> NOW, and
> there are millions of subscribers to VoIP services who are =20
> independent of
> any access network (e.g. Vonage).  To make it work, the access =20
> network has

It is also quite likely that even if an ILEC provides VoIP service, =20
that it would want this service to work outside of its own network. =20
In other words, DT will, in order to be competitive with other =20
providers, want to be able to have its VoIP users use non-DT access =20
networks, e.g., while traveling, using a public hot spot  or visiting =20=

neighbors. Thus, even DT has an incentive to make this type of =20
arrangement work. Naturally, this is not a concern if DT is not =20
interested in selling VoIP service at all.


>
> With respect to privacy, if the only entity that gets the location =20
> is the
> endpoint, then it can decide who else gets it.  It could subsequently
> delegate some service to serve as its location provider (e.g. presence
> service), but assuming the access network is the subscribers location
> service of choice is not seen as conducive to allowing users to =20
> control the
> privacy of their own location.  We understand the economic =20
> implications of
> this architecture.  In theory, if the endpoint has its location, it =20=

> can give
> it to anyone else, and the access network may not receive any =20
> payment.  It
> may be permissible, in some environments, to prevent this =20
> contractually.
> It=92s also quite clear that IMS standards will support endpoints =20
> getting
> their own location and unless DT intends to prohibit this (and thus =20=

> restrict
> the range of applications that can execute on IMS endpoints), that
> particular issue is moot.

To emphasize a point you hinted at earlier: the customer is already =20
paying for location information, by subscribing to the DSL or similar =20=

service. Since location is fundamentally an access network service, =20
unbundling it makes as much sense as charging separately for getting =20
an IP address or IP packets, since they can also used by other =20
entities to derive value.

It should also be noted that there are regulatory models in the US =20
that allow network providers to charge customers for emergency-=20
calling related services (the 9-1-1 tax). The model has its flaws, =20
but it is disingenuous to claim that there is no alternative beyond =20
giving location information "for free" (as untrue as that is) or not =20
giving it out at all.



>
> We do observe, however, that it seems feasible to interwork most of =20=

> the IETF
> emergency calling architecture to existing standards on a case by case
> basis.  The LoST based routing mechanisms may not be able to be =20
> used in all
> cases, but the location, marking, and other components of the ecrit
> architecture do seem to map fairly well into existing systems.  DT =20
> may wish

In particular, LoST can easily point to a proxy, which dials the =20
'hidden' PSTN number through a special gateway, so that the number is =20=

never visible to callers.


>
> Some other specifics:
> In point 3, DT worries about the liability of providing location =20
> when the
> device may be corrupted.  I do not understand this issue.  The access
> network has never been held liable for any other information it may =20=

> supply
> the device when it is corrupted, why would location be treated =20
> differently?
> IMS standards permit devices to learn their location.  Would this =20
> engender
> the same concerns?

Plus, a corrupted device could easily just snoop on audio, likely =20
obtaining far more sensitive data. (Besides, users will enter their =20
home location on e-commerce web pages, so a keyboard sniffer can =20
easily get this data on a machine that has been 0wned.) I'll also =20
note that DT (used to?) use telephone numbers as identifiers for DSL =20
customers; these numbers provide fairly fine-grained location and =20
identity information. (In Germany, area codes are often specific to a =20=

small community of no more than a few thousand people, so even =20
unlisted numbers provide lots of location detail that is likely =20
equivalent to the amount of detail needed for PSAP routing.)

Henning



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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 11:35:10 2007
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> Forcing relationships between calling and access networks won't scale.
> There are thousands to tens of thousands of each, and any calling network
> may have to process an emergency call originating on any access network. =
 My
> usual example is a nomadic caller from Sierra Leone, using a Sierra Leone
> VoIP service, connecting a softclient through a WiFi Access Point in a ca=
f=E9
> in Chicago served by a WiFi network with a DSL connection from the local
> ILEC.  Trying to create a relationship between the Sierra Leone VoIP
> Services Pty and any of Starbucks, T-Mobile Hotspot or AT&T (DSL) is not
> feasible. You can claim this is a corner case, but it's happening NOW, an=
d
> there are millions of subscribers to VoIP services who are independent of
> any access network (e.g. Vonage).

Most of the Skype network operates on the very same principle of nomadic
subscribers, so there are 100+ million of people working exactly the way.
This is by no means a corner case.

Yours,
Andres



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From ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Wed Mar 28 15:28:58 2007
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Subject: [Ecrit] SDO Emergency Services Workshop: Reminder
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Hi all,

a high-level agenda for the workshop is now available and the agenda 
will be updated frequently:
http://www.emergency-services-coordination.info/2007/agenda.html

Please do not forget to register for the workshop (by using the EDAS 
system as described at 
http://www.emergency-services-coordination.info/2007/, Section "Meeting 
Organization"). The size of the meeting venue is limited and for safety 
reasons we have to limit the number of participants. Hence, we may need 
to enforce a first come first serve policy.

Best regards

Jenny Hansen
Marc Linsner
Stephen McCann
Christian Militeau
Atle Monrad
Henning Schulzrinne
Hannes Tschofenig
Harry Worstell

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