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Cc: ecrit@ietf.org, ecrit-bounces@ietf.org Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:54:12 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0067D333852578B0_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q29tbWVudHMgb24gdGhlIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uDQoNCiANCkluIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgcGFyYWdyYXBo IG9mIHRoZSBJbnRybywgSSBzdWdnZXN0IGNoYW5naW5nICJ1bmRlcnN0YW5kYWJsZSIgDQp0byAi dW5kZXJzdG9vZCIsIHRvIGJldHRlciBwYXJhbGxlbCB0aGUgd29yZGluZyBpbiA0NDEyLiANCg0K SSBhbSBzdGlsbCBjb25jZXJuZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgSW50cm9kdWN0aW9uIG1lbnRpb25zIE9OTFkg Ik1MUFAtbGlrZSIgDQpiZWhhdmlvciAoYW5kIGRvZXMgbm90IG1lbnRpb24gcXVldWluZyBBVCBB TEwpLCB3aGVuIHRoZSBuYW1lc3BhY2UgaXMgDQpiZWluZyByZWdpc3RlcmVkIGFzICJxdWV1ZS1i 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YnI+DQpOT1RFOiBSZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIGNvbnRlbnQsIHRoaXMgZS1tYWlsIHNoYWxsIG5vdCBv cGVyYXRlIHRvIGJpbmQgQ1NDDQp0byBhbnkgb3JkZXIgb3Igb3RoZXIgY29udHJhY3QgdW5sZXNz IHB1cnN1YW50IHRvIGV4cGxpY2l0IHdyaXR0ZW4gYWdyZWVtZW50DQpvciBnb3Zlcm5tZW50IGlu aXRpYXRpdmUgZXhwcmVzc2x5IHBlcm1pdHRpbmcgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBlLW1haWwgZm9yIHN1Y2gN CnB1cnBvc2UuPC9mb250Pg0K --=_alternative 0067D333852578B0_=-- From jmpolk@cisco.com Wed Jun 15 18:24:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80FD011E8163 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uy1yIwuHWcjm for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8208E11E8080 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:24:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=7251; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1308187471; x=1309397071; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LvjuiIp21Qrd0STYXOWxApwacTiI7SUrR6gw4xXBiTU=; b=WhZQYq+zfCF7ZBQHgO8lAdqqCwzH/agNaqf+gaw1Ao1vH3avWYr/8v5z Bp8Kp3A3UiJaE0fIJNFx5wKvDnK5l8jbutNoWNRbHpuqJYzZtc8gODeyD vDXeOfHLDgFgUEuqB8BF2zs058yMutiOsWa2071Z8D2o/tCh3mxazzcUC Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EANZa+U2rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABSpl93q02eL4YmBIcamkc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,372,1304294400"; d="scan'208";a="337962635" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Jun 2011 01:24:31 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8711.cisco.com [10.99.80.18]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5G1OUbn011648; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:24:30 GMT Message-Id: <201106160124.p5G1OUbn011648@mtv-core-3.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:24:29 -0500 To: Janet P Gunn , Janet P Gunn From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:24:32 -0000 At 01:53 PM 6/15/2011, Janet P Gunn wrote: >Comments on the new version > > >In the second paragraph of the Intro, I suggest=20 >changing "understandable" to "understood", to=20 >better parallel the wording in 4412. > >I am still concerned that the Introduction=20 >mentions ONLY "MLPP-like" behavior (and does not=20 >mention queuing AT ALL), when the namespace is=20 >being registered as "queue-based". I have no=20 >problem with the discussion of MLPP-like=20 >behavior- but the Intro needs to mention queueing AS WELL. I disagree. The Intro is merely informative, and=20 the above request is treating the queuing as=20 normative, which is a limitation I do not want to do. >I also still think that "MLPP - like behavior=20 >without the prememption", and without queueing,=20 >is pretty useless. It cannot "ensure more the=20 >important calls are established or retained" sure it can. voice isn't the only think that is traversing the=20 routers, even within an ESInet. >Furthermore, the second part of the sentence is=20 >a non sequitor - "THEREFORE (my caps) the=20 >"esnet" namespace is given 5 priority-levels". what was the sentence before and after the one=20 you quote? They provide some context to having=20 more than one or two priority-levels. >The need for 5 priority levels is orthogonal to=20 >whether it is MLPP-like or queue-based. If you=20 >got rid of the "therefore", and made it two sentences, it would be fine. "therefore" is concluding what was just said to=20 justify why more than 1 or 2 priority-levels are=20 being assigned to this namespace. >In section 2, I still have problems with this sentence > > "The "esnet" namespace SHOULD only be used in times of an emergency, > where at least one end of the signaling is within a local emergency > organization." > >This, of course, begs the question -what is the=20 >definition of a =E2=80=9Ctime of emergency=E2=80=9D? you mean "local emergency" right? Is it not clear that in local emergencies one=20 (effectively) dials a number like 911 or 112 or 999? Who does this type of dialing? answer - local citizens Who do they call? answer - PSAPs I'm not going to define each of these terms -=20 especially a highly subjective one like "times of=20 an emergency" (which is a phrase, not a term).=20 Citizens self-determine when they are experiences=20 or witnessing a time of emergency and either act on it or choose not to. The point is that this is generally (hence the=20 SHOULD) for citizen-to-authority communications,=20 not authority-to-authority or=20 authority-to-citizen communications; and I'm not=20 going to define any of those phrases either). >Does some authority have to formally declare a =E2=80=9Ctime of= emergency=E2=80=9D? you're killing me here... it's=20 citizen-to-authority communication like the diagram shows. If someone is breaking into your house, do you=20 really need to wait for an authority to declare=20 "a time of emergency" before you call 911? really?! >It would seem that, by definition, every=20 >911/112/999 call represents a =E2=80=9Ctime of=20 >emergency=E2=80=9D, at least for the caller. yeah... so what can you conclude from that? That=20 maybe its all about citizen-to-authority=20 communications (which is shown in the diagram)? >And what do you mean by =E2=80=9Cone end of signaling? Is a B2BUA an= =E2=80=9Cend=E2=80=9D? can a B2BUA by itself represent a citizen, or=20 does a B2BUA continue the received signaling from=20 a UA (albeit as a separate dialog or call leg)=20 towards a PSAP for the 911/112/999 call? This document is NOT building an architecture,=20 not even attempting to, and I'm not inclined to be drug down that path= either. >What is the definition of =E2=80=9Ca local emergency=20 >organization=E2=80=9D? Is that the same as a PSAP? you're killing me here (again)... do I need to=20 define each word in this ID before you agree to consider it? I've got a better idea, I can remove the context=20 for why this namespace is needed and just make it=20 a 3 page IANA registration doc. That solves all=20 the terminology issues (by not having any). But seriously, even the abstract draws this distinction: "... for local emergency usage to a public safety answering point (PSAP) ..." >If a PSAP is directly connected to the (public)=20 >Service Provider network, without a separate=20 >=E2=80=9CESI network=E2=80=9D, is it allowed to use this namespace? which Internet police would prevent this? This document cannot define all the different=20 network configurations possible, nor should it try. >At the end of 3.2, > "The remaining rules originated in RFC 4412 apply with regard to an > RP actor, who understands more than one namespace, and MUST maintain > its locally significant relative priority order." >is still awkwardly worded, but the content is OK. I'm going to stick with your "ok"... >In section 5 I still have problems following this sentence > >"...the implications of using this > namespace within the field incorrectly can potentially cause a large > impact on a network, given that this indication is to give > preferential treatment of marked traffic great preference within the > network verses other traffic. " > >First, =E2=80=9Cmarked=E2=80=9D could mean many different=20 >things. Second, given that you have 5 different=20 >priority levels, it is unlikely that they ALL=20 >=E2=80=9Cgive preferential treatment of marked=20 >traffic great preference=E2=80=9D (which is also redundant). > >I still prefer > >=E2=80=9CIncorrectly using this namespace within the=20 >Resource-Priority header field can cause a large=20 >impact on a network. For some priority=20 >values, this namespace can give great=20 >preference within the network over other traffic.=E2=80=9D This is the Sec-Cons section, and the idea of=20 marked packets or calls is the proper description. >Finally, I think it would make sense to include=20 >an informative reference for "MLPP-like behavior"- perhaps 4411. 4411 creates, defines, describes how the=20 preemption indication is communicated, which has=20 nothing directly to do with this doc. If=20 anything, MLPP is described in 4412 which is=20 already a normative reference in this doc. James BTW - the subject line is wrong above, it's not=20 "draft-ietf-ecrit-...-01.txt" anymore, it's=20 "draft-polk-...-01.txt", making this a non-WG=20 item. This gives me a far greater latitude in how I edit the doc... >Janet > >This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the=20 >intended recipient, please delete without=20 >copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. >NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall=20 >not operate to bind CSC to any order or other=20 >contract unless pursuant to explicit written=20 >agreement or government initiative expressly=20 >permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From jgunn6@csc.com Thu Jun 16 06:52:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E3B11E80E1 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:52:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i6eNoYszPnGf for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail85.messagelabs.com (mail85.messagelabs.com [216.82.241.211]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47B511E80BF for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:52:15 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: jgunn6@csc.com X-Msg-Ref: server-3.tower-85.messagelabs.com!1308232333!10503713!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [20.137.2.88] Received: (qmail 11354 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2011 13:52:14 -0000 Received: from amer-mta102.csc.com (HELO amer-mta102.csc.com) (20.137.2.88) by server-3.tower-85.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 16 Jun 2011 13:52:14 -0000 Received: from amer-gw09.amer.csc.com (amer-gw09.amer.csc.com [20.6.39.245]) by amer-mta102.csc.com (Switch-3.4.3/Switch-3.3.3mp) with ESMTP id p5GDqBNs002386 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:52:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: <201106160124.p5G1OUbn011648@mtv-core-3.cisco.com> References: <201106160124.p5G1OUbn011648@mtv-core-3.cisco.com> To: "James M. Polk" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-KeepSent: A60AED56:D020E2A1-852578B1:004B82AC; type=4; name=$KeepSent X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.0.2FP1 CCH2 April 23, 2009 From: Janet P Gunn Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:52:10 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on AMER-GW09/SRV/CSC(Release 8.5.2FP1 HF29|January 09, 2011) at 06/16/2011 09:50:46 AM, Serialize complete at 06/16/2011 09:50:46 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 004C2FD0852578B1_=" Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re: draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:52:17 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004C2FD0852578B1_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Polk" Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:22:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC2C39.27E8086C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQoNCiANCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IOKAnHF1ZXVpbmfigJ0gYXMgYSBtZXRob2QgbmVl ZHMgdG8gYmUgbWVudGlvbmVkLCBhcyBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIHVzZWQgaW4gY29tbWVyY2lhbCBkZXBs b3ltZW50cy4NCg0KIA0KDQpBbHNvLCAgaXMgdGhlIHRlcm0gaW4gdGhlIG5hbWVzcGFjZSDigJxl c25ldOKAnSBnbG9iYWw/DQoNCiANCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCg0KIA0KDQpNYXJ0aW4gRG9sbHkNCkxl YWQgTWVtYmVyIFRlY2huaWNhbCBTdGFmZg0KDQpDb3JlICYgR292ZXJubWVudC9SZWd1bGF0b3J5 IFN0YW5kYXJkcw0KQVQmVCBTZXJ2aWNlcywgSW5jLg0KbWQzMTM1QGF0dC5jb20NCg0KKzEtNjA5 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IGZvciBzdWNoIHB1cnBvc2UuPC90dD48YnI+PHR0PiZndDtfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXzwvdHQ+PGJyPjx0dD4mZ3Q7RWNyaXQgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0PC90dD48YnI+PHR0PiZndDtFY3JpdEBpZXRmLm9yZzwvdHQ+PGJyPjx0dD4mZ3Q7PC90dD48 L3NwYW4+PGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9lY3Jp dCI+PHR0PjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0Jz5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Vjcml0PC9zcGFuPjwvdHQ+PC9hPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250 LXNpemU6MTAuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDb3VyaWVyIE5ldyInPjxicj48YnI+PGJyPjwvc3Bh bj48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD48L2Rpdj48L2JvZHk+PC9odG1sPg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC2C39.27E8086C-- From jmpolk@cisco.com Thu Jun 16 11:25:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFDD611E8255 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EtEf1CwR7mJm for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADEF11E8081 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=9525; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1308248724; x=1309458324; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AQLGkdfEbq2zCFQ3DpgjnTrvKdJoY6HY3jI4S5kBESI=; b=iIlh7Hr922SAKEN2xEmitCop6cpMecgZ0zPOvOJ33iv60DWnLczYv2cD DyZJikC451hLZY3+r4et7AU9aOODpsxvSJiYuTolBtG2PpBObwXEBldLx IDVu952HJDVsZMlqEuSnFMUVsP8WyukaDnX1EDdeYrY+RvKajO/+t2M6o s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,376,1304294400"; d="scan'208";a="714966399" Received: from mtv-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.58.9]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Jun 2011 18:25:24 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8711.cisco.com [10.99.80.18]) by mtv-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5GIPN5I013790; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:25:23 GMT Message-Id: <201106161825.p5GIPN5I013790@mtv-core-4.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:25:22 -0500 To: "DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI)" , "Janet P Gunn" , "James M. Polk" From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: <14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA0A5B2064@gaalpa1msgusr7e.u gd.att.com> References: <201106160124.p5G1OUbn011648@mtv-core-3.cisco.com> <14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA0A5B2064@gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:25:26 -0000 At 10:22 AM 6/16/2011, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI) wrote: >Hello, > >I agree that =E2=80=9Cqueuing=E2=80=9D as a method needs to=20 >be mentioned, as it will be used in commercial deployments. likely in the US, but not likely in some other=20 markets. The queuing method is listed as the=20 method of use, but the doc clearly states the=20 preemption method is not prevented either. > >Also, =C2 is the term in the namespace =E2=80=9Cesnet=E2=80=9D global? verses being just US based? What in the IETF is only US based (that's standards track)? To your question - of course it's a global=20 namespace, as I call out 911 (which isn't only US=20 based), 112 (used by 3GPP - and nearly ubiquitous=20 throughout European GSM systems), and 999 (used=20 in the UK) as the style of calls this namespace is intended for. James > >Regards, > >Martin Dolly >Lead Member Technical Staff >Core & Government/Regulatory Standards >AT&T Services, Inc. >md3135@att.com >+1-609-903-3360 > > > >From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org=20 >[mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Janet P Gunn >Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:52 AM >To: James M. Polk >Cc: ecrit@ietf.org >Subject: [Ecrit]=20 >draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt=20 >was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 > > >James, > >Apologies for the cut and paste error on the=20 >current document name- fixed now. > >I still think it is important that queuing be=20 >MENTIONED in the Intro- even if it is a vague as=20 >"...possibly in addition to, or instead of, queuing" > >For the rest, if no one else agrees with my=20 >concerns, I will plead guilty to being pedantic, and let it go. > >You already fixed my primary concern. > >Janet >, > >From: >"James M. Polk" >To: >Janet P Gunn/USA/CSC@CSC, Janet P Gunn/USA/CSC@CSC >Cc: >ecrit@ietf.org >Date: >06/15/2011 09:24 PM >Subject: >Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 > > > > > >At 01:53 PM 6/15/2011, Janet P Gunn wrote: > > >Comments on the new version > > > > > >In the second paragraph of the Intro, I suggest > >changing "understandable" to "understood", to > >better parallel the wording in 4412. > > > >I am still concerned that the Introduction > >mentions ONLY "MLPP-like" behavior (and does not > >mention queuing AT ALL), when the namespace is > >being registered as "queue-based". I have no > >problem with the discussion of MLPP-like > >behavior- but the Intro needs to mention queueing AS WELL. > >I disagree. The Intro is merely informative, and >the above request is treating the queuing as >normative, which is a limitation I do not want to do. > > > >I also still think that "MLPP - like behavior > >without the prememption", and without queueing, > >is pretty useless. It cannot "ensure more the > >important calls are established or retained" > >sure it can. > >voice isn't the only think that is traversing the >routers, even within an ESInet. > > > >Furthermore, the second part of the sentence is > >a non sequitor - "THEREFORE (my caps) the > >"esnet" namespace is given 5 priority-levels". > >what was the sentence before and after the one >you quote? They provide some context to having >more than one or two priority-levels. > > >The need for 5 priority levels is orthogonal to > >whether it is MLPP-like or queue-based. If you > >got rid of the "therefore", and made it two sentences, it would be fine. > >"therefore" is concluding what was just said to >justify why more than 1 or 2 priority-levels are >being assigned to this namespace. > > > >In section 2, I still have problems with this sentence > > > > "The "esnet" namespace SHOULD only be used in times of an emergency, > > where at least one end of the signaling is within a local emergency > > organization." > > > >This, of course, begs the question -what is the > >definition of a =C3=A2=80=C5=C5=93time of emergency=C3=A2=80=C2=9D? > >you mean local emergency" right? > >Is it not clear that in local emergencies one >(effectively) dials a number like 911 or 112 or 999? > >Who does this type of dialing? > >answer - local citizens > >Who do they call? > >answer - PSAPs > >I'm not going to define each of these terms - >especially a highly subjective one like "times of >an emergency" (which is a phrase, not a term). >Citizens self-determine when they are experiences >or witnessing a time of emergency and either act on it or choose not to. > >The point is that this is generally (hence the >SHOULD) for citizen-to-authority communications, >not authority-to-authority or >authority-to-citizen communications; and I'm not >going to define any of those phrases either). > > >Does some authority have to formally declare a =C3=A2=80=9Ctime of e= emergency=C3=A2=80=C2=9D? > >you're killing me here.... it's >citizen-to-authority communication like the diagram shows. > >If someone is breaking into your house, do you >really need to wait for an authority to declare >"a time of emergency" before you call 911? really?! > > >It would seem that, by definition, every > >911/112/999 call represents a =C3=A2=80=9Ctime o of > >emergency=C3=A2=80=C2=9D, at least for the calller. > >yeah... so what can you conclude from that? That >maybe its all about citizen-to-authority >communications (which is shown in the diagram)? > > > >And what do you mean by =C3=A2=80=9Cone end of=20 > signaling? Is a B2BUA an =C3=A2=80=9Cen=AC=C5=93end=C3=A2=80=C2=9D? > >can a B2BUA by itself representt a citizen, or >does a B2BUA continue the received signaling from >a UA (albeit as a separate dialog or call leg) >towards a PSAP for the 911/112/999 call? > >This document is NOT building an architecture, >not even attempting to, and I'm not inclined to be drug down that path= either. > > > > >What is the definition of =C3=A2=80=9Ca local emergency > >organization=C3n=C3=A2=80=C2=9D? Is that the same as a PSAP? > >you'rre killing me here (again)... do I need to >define each word in this ID before you agree to consider it? > >I've got a better idea, I can remove the context >for why this namespace is needed and just make it >a 3 page IANA registration doc. That solves all >the terminology issues (by not having any). > >But seriously, even the abstract draws this distinction: > > "... for local emergency > usage to a public safety answering point (PSAP) ..." > > > >If a PSAP is directly connected to the (public) > >Service Provider network, without a separate > >=C3=A2=80=9CESI network=C3k=C3=A2=80=C2=9D, is it allowed to use this= namespace? > > >which Internet police would prevent this? > >This document cannot define all the different >network configurations possible, nor should it try. > > > > >At the end of 3.2, > > "The remaining rules originated in RFC 4412 apply with regard to an > > RP actor, who understands more than one namespace, and MUST maintain > > its locally significant relative priority order." > >is still awkwardly worded, but the content is OK. > >I'm going to stick with your "ok"... > > > > >In section 5 I still have problems following this sentence > > > >"...the implications of using this > > namespace within the field incorrectly can potentially cause a large > > impact on a network, given that this indication is to give > > preferential treatment of marked traffic great preference within the > > network verses other traffic. " > > > >First, =C3=A2=80=9Cmarked=C3=A2=80=C2=9D could mean many different > >things. Second, given that you have 5 different > >priority levels, it is unlikely that they ALL > >=C3=A2=80=9Cgive preferentitial treatment of marked > >traffic great preference=C3=A2=80=C2=9D (which is also redundant). > > > >I still prefer > > > >=C3=A2=80=9CIncorrectly using this namesespace within the > >Resource-Priority header field can cause a large > >impact on a network. For some priority > >values, this namespace can give great > >preference within the network over other traffic.=C3=A2=80=C2=9D >This is the Sec-Cons section, and the idea of >marked packets or calls is the proper description. > > > >Finally, I think it would make sense to include > >an informative reference for "MLPP-like behavior"- perhaps 4411. > >4411 creates, defines, describes how the >preemption indication is communicated, which has >nothing directly to do with this doc. If >anything, MLPP is described in 4412 which is >already a normative reference in this doc. > >James > >BTW - the subject line is wrong above, it's not >"draft-ietf-ecrit-...-01.txt" anymore, it's >"draft-polk-...-01.txt", making this a non-WG >item. This gives me a far greater latitude in how I edit the doc... > > > > >Janet > > > >This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the > >intended recipient, please delete without > >copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. > >NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall > >not operate to bind CSC to any order or other > >contract unless pursuant to explicit written > >agreement or government initiative expressly > >permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. > >_______________________________________________ > >Ecrit mailing list > >Ecrit@ietf.org > >ht=20 > tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit > From md3135@att.com Thu Jun 16 11:43:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2394811E8269 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:43:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqQ7NMd5vFQY for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail119.messagelabs.com (mail119.messagelabs.com [216.82.241.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498F311E8081 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: md3135@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-14.tower-119.messagelabs.com!1308249828!24551113!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.146] Received: (qmail 25277 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2011 18:43:48 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp7.sbc.com (HELO mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.146) by server-14.tower-119.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 16 Jun 2011 18:43:48 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p5GIgeGq021383 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:42:40 -0400 Received: from gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com (gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com [135.53.26.19]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p5GIgZSD021245 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:42:35 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:43:41 -0400 Message-ID: <14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA093DBF21@gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 Thread-Index: AcwsUsmz5k6zfmI1SZ61erX9qbZb0wAAoaQd From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI)" To: , Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:43:51 -0000 SmFtZXMNCg0KVGhhbmtzLiBXaGF0IGlzIHRoZSB0YXJnZXQgZm9yIGFwcHJvdmFsPw0KDQpSZWdh cmRzLA0KDQpNYXJ0aW4NCk1hcnRpbiBDLiBEb2xseQ0KU2VudCB0byB5b3UgYnkgQVQmVC4uLiBB bWVyaWNhJ3MgRmFzdGVzdCBNb2JpbGUgQnJvYWRiYW5kIE5ldHdvcmsuIFJldGhpbmsgUG9zc2li bGUuDQorMS42MDkuOTAzLjMzNjANCg0KLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLQ0KRnJv bTogSmFtZXMgTS4gUG9sayA8am1wb2xrQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4NClRvOiBET0xMWSwgTUFSVElOIEMg KEFUVFNJKTsgSmFuZXQgUCBHdW5uIDxqZ3VubjZAY3NjLmNvbT47IEphbWVzIE0uIFBvbGsgPGpt cG9sa0BjaXNjby5jb20+DQpDYzogZWNyaXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcgPGVjcml0QGlldGYub3JnPg0KU2Vu dDogVGh1IEp1biAxNiAxNDoyNToyMiAyMDExDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogW0Vjcml0XSBkcmFmdC1w b2xrLWxvY2FsLWVtZXJnZW5jeS1ycGgtbmFtZXNwYWNlLTAxLnR4dCAgd2FzIFJlOmRyYWZ0LWll dGYtZWNyaXQtbG9jYWwtZW1lcmdlbmN5LXJwaC1uYW1lc3BhY2UtMDENCg0KQXQgMTA6MjIgQU0g 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ZGx5IGFkdmlzZSB1cyBieSBlLW1haWwgb2YgdGhlIG1pc3Rha2UgaW4gZGVsaXZlcnkuDQo+ID5O T1RFOiBSZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIGNvbnRlbnQsIHRoaXMgZS1tYWlsIHNoYWxsDQo+ID5ub3Qgb3Bl cmF0ZSB0byBiaW5kIENTQyB0byBhbnkgb3JkZXIgb3Igb3RoZXINCj4gPmNvbnRyYWN0IHVubGVz cyBwdXJzdWFudCB0byBleHBsaWNpdCB3cml0dGVuDQo+ID5hZ3JlZW1lbnQgb3IgZ292ZXJubWVu dCBpbml0aWF0aXZlIGV4cHJlc3NseQ0KPiA+cGVybWl0dGluZyB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIGUtbWFpbCBm b3Igc3VjaCBwdXJwb3NlLg0KPiA+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPkVjcml0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+RWNyaXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g PjxodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Vjcml0Pmh0IA0KPiB0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9lY3JpdA0KPg0KDQo= From brian.rosen@neustar.biz Thu Jun 16 12:24:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1994511E8273 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qFQzjZJRw7uO for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neustar.com (smartmail.neustar.com [156.154.25.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E452211E826B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=neustar.biz; s=neustarbiz; t=1308252263; x=1623594295; q=dns/txt; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Language: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=KSXqXEibxhRpD6JWLA7BH p3Hfb1xYE7NZsJt5fbcMAU=; b=GxP3JAvi0VJ/IQVgHmRQoUMyRz9ayodhRmJNF DoQbLYGzFZRv88Ifi1WSkdGc1+PrJW/1p7Z4AC4GysqB31Osg== Received: from ([10.31.13.229]) by chihiron2.nc.neustar.com with ESMTP with TLS id 5202415.38532838; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:22 -0400 Received: from STNTEXCH01.cis.neustar.com ([fe80::31b6:4d09:2ada:e6c0]) by STNTEXCHHT02.cis.neustar.com ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:22 -0400 From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:24:21 -0400 Thread-Topic: NENA i3 spec approved and published Thread-Index: AcwsWv51QFsW3I4hTLy8YE4wuTLWMQ== Message-ID: <91485B92-892F-47B2-8A18-ACFA2970416A@neustar.biz> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US x-ems-proccessed: R64IxjzeHPwwd+efoj3ZcA== x-ems-stamp: 3ptKd9RHZ5eNYCCTzn8OzA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ecrit] NENA i3 spec approved and published X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:24:29 -0000 Today, the NENA executive board approved final release of Version 1 of NENA= 08-003, the i3 Standard. It's available at: http://www.nena.org/sites/default/files/08-003%20Detailed%20Functional%20an= d%20Interface%20Specification%20for%20the%20NENA%20i3%20Solution%20-%20Stag= e%203_1.pdf =20 Brian= From jmpolk@cisco.com Thu Jun 16 12:36:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D0B11E8143 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.751 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.848, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HLP7CsOmF4m8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6716011E8110 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:36:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=11365; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1308252974; x=1309462574; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:cc:in-reply-to: references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=e2RIG1eHJonmFYhl6WlZCdfqzi1srj8HP6eI93wE5dQ=; b=DEetSuozOOsH5xoPdrIJLZWBWSt3Mz8st2Qt8PY49gHqYIjHBdFcV9MJ yuLS/29cHGZb5jjkaVbG/4vFwZO6JS3RgKV5uIaY0h7Pw6/8buagKQ0oi 4hm7r0weFS0vRNIioUvSGAKWXj21g6Ff9EHmdCcv3siyLhjIuuiPLZGn+ 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,377,1304294400"; d="scan'208";a="715043868" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Jun 2011 19:35:49 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8711.cisco.com [10.99.80.18]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5GJZm6f019945; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:35:48 GMT Message-Id: <201106161935.p5GJZm6f019945@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:35:47 -0500 To: "DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI)" , From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: <14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA093DBF21@gaalpa1msgusr7e.u gd.att.com> References: <14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA093DBF21@gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:36:15 -0000 At 01:43 PM 6/16/2011, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI) wrote: >James > >Thanks. What is the target for approval? this is no longer a WG item (don't get me started=20 on that without beers in front of us!), the PROTO=20 write-up has already written and is about to go=20 to the IESG as an individual submission on a=20 standards track - so it could be an RFC within 2-3 months. Is that the kind of answer you were looking for (wrt "target for approval")? cheers James >Regards, > >Martin >Martin C. Dolly >Sent to you by AT&T... America's Fastest Mobile=20 >Broadband Network. Rethink Possible. >+1.609.903.3360 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: James M. Polk >To: DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI); Janet P Gunn=20 >; James M. Polk >Cc: ecrit@ietf.org >Sent: Thu Jun 16 14:25:22 2011 >Subject: RE: [Ecrit]=20 >draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt=20 >was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 > >At 10:22 AM 6/16/2011, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI) wrote: > >Hello, > > > >I agree that =C3=A2=80=9Cqueuing=C3=A2=80=C2=9D as a method needs to >o > >be mentioned, as it will be used in commercial deployments. > >likely in the US, but not likely in some other >markets. The queuing method is listed as the >method of use, but the doc clearly states the >preemption method is not prevented either. > > > > >Also, =C3=82 is the term in the namespace =C3=A2=80=9Cesnet=C3=A2=80=C2= =9D global? > >verses being jug just US based? > >What in the IETF is only US based (that's standards track)? > >To your question - of course it's a global >namespace, as I call out 911 (which isn't only US >based), 112 (used by 3GPP - and nearly ubiquitous >throughout European GSM systems), and 999 (used >in the UK) as the style of calls this namespace is intended for. > >James > > > > >Regards, > > > >Martin Dolly > >Lead Member Technical Staff > >Core & Government/Regulatory Standards > >AT&T Services, Inc. > >md3135@att.com > >+1-609-903-3360 > > > > > > > >From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org > >[mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Janet P Gunn > >Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:52 AM > >To: James M. Polk > >Cc: ecrit@ietf.org > >Subject: [Ecrit] > >draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt > >was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 > > > > > >James, > > > >Apologies for the cut and paste error on the > >current document name- fixed now. > > > >I still think it is important that queuing be > >MENTIONED in the Intro- even if it is a vague as > >"...possibly in addition to, or instead of, queuing" > > > >For the rest, if no one else agrees with my > >concerns, I will plead guilty to being pedantic, and let it go. > > > >You already fixed my primary concern. > > > >Janet > >, > > > >From: > >"James M. Polk" > >To: > >Janet P Gunn/USA/CSC@CSC, Janet P Gunn/USA/CSC@CSC > >Cc: > >ecrit@ietf.org > >Date: > >06/15/2011 09:24 PM > >Subject: > >Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 > > > > > > > > > > > >At 01:53 PM 6/15/2011, Janet P Gunn wrote: > > > > >Comments on the new version > > > > > > > > >In the second paragraph of the Intro, I suggest > > >changing "understandable" to "understood", to > > >better parallel the wording in 4412. > > > > > >I am still concerned that the Introduction > > >mentions ONLY "MLPP-like" behavior (and does not > > >mention queuing AT ALL), when the namespace is > > >being registered as "queue-based". I have no > > >problem with the discussion of MLPP-like > > >behavior- but the Intro needs to mention queueing AS WELL. > > > >I disagree. The Intro is merely informative, and > >the above request is treating the queuing as > >normative, which is a limitation I do not want to do. > > > > > > >I also still think that "MLPP - like behavior > > >without the prememption", and without queueing, > > >is pretty useless. It cannot "ensure more the > > >important calls are established or retained" > > > >sure it can. > > > >voice isn't the only think that is traversing the > >routers, even within an ESInet. > > > > > > >Furthermore, the second part of the sentence is > > >a non sequitor - "THEREFORE (my caps) the > > >"esnet" namespace is given 5 priority-levels". > > > >what was the sentence before and after the one > >you quote? They provide some context to having > >more than one or two priority-levels. > > > > >The need for 5 priority levels is orthogonal to > > >whether it is MLPP-like or queue-based. If you > > >got rid of the "therefore", and made it two sentences, it would be= fine. > > > >"therefore" is concluding what was just said to > >justify why more than 1 or 2 priority-levels are > >being assigned to this namespace. > > > > > > >In section 2, I still have problems with this sentence > > > > > > "The "esnet" namespace SHOULD only be used in times of an emergency, > > > where at least one end of the signaling is within a local emergency > > > organization." > > > > > >This, of course, begs the question -what is the > > >definition of a =C3=83=C2=A2=E2=82=AC=C3=85=C3=85=E2=80=9Ctime of= emergency=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D? > > > >you mean locaal emergency" right? > > > >Is it not clear that in local emergencies one > >(effectively) dials a number like 911 or 112 or 999? > > > >Who does this type of dialing? > > > >answer - local citizens > > > >Who do they call? > > > >answer - PSAPs > > > >I'm not going to define each of these terms - > >especially a highly subjective one like "times of > >an emergency" (which is a phrase, not a term). > >Citizens self-determine when they are experiences > >or witnessing a time of emergency and either act on it or choose not to. > > > >The point is that this is generally (hence the > >SHOULD) for citizen-to-authority communications, > >not authority-to-authority or > >authority-to-citizen communications; and I'm not > >going to define any of those phrases either). > > > > >Does some authority have to formally declare=20 > a =C3=83=C2=A2=80=9Ctime of e emergency=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D? > > > >you're kre killing me here.... it's > >citizen-to-authority communication like the diagram shows. > > > >If someone is breaking into your house, do you > >really need to wait for an authority to declare > >"a time of emergency" before you call 911? really?! > > > > >It would seem that, by definition, every > > >911/112/999 call represents a =C3=83=C2=A2=80=9Ctime o of >f > > >emergency=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D, at least for the calller. > > > >>yeah... so what can you conclude from that? That > >maybe its all about citizen-to-authority > >communications (which is shown in the diagram)? > > > > > > >And what do you mean by =C3=83=C2=A2=80=9Cone end of > > signaling? Is a B2BUA an =C3=83=C2=83=C2=A2=80=9Cen=C2=AC=C3=85=E2=80=9C= end=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D? > > > >can a B2BUA by itselfself representt a citizen, or > >does a B2BUA continue the received signaling from > >a UA (albeit as a separate dialog or call leg) > >towards a PSAP for the 911/112/999 call? > > > >This document is NOT building an architecture, > >not even attempting to, and I'm not inclined=20 > to be drug down that path either. > > > > > > > > >What is the definition of =C3=83=C2=A2=80=9Ca local emergency > > >organization=C3=83n=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D=C3=82=C2=9D? Is that the= same as a PSAP? > > > >you'rre killing me here (again)... do I need to > >define each word in this ID before you agree to consider it? > > > >I've got a better idea, I can remove the context > >for why this namespace is needed and just make it > >a 3 page IANA registration doc. That solves all > >the terminology issues (by not having any). > > > >But seriously, even the abstract draws this distinction: > > > > "... for local emergency > > usage to a public safety answering point (PSAP) ..." > > > > > > >If a PSAP is directly connected to the (public) > > >Service Provider network, without a separate > > >=C3=83=C2=A2=80=9CESI n network=C3=83k=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D, is= it allowed to use this namespacee? > > > > >which Internet police would prevent this? > > > >This document cannot define all the different > >network configurations possible, nor should it try. > > > > > > > > >At the end of 3.2, > > > "The remaining rules originated in RFC 4412 apply with regard to an > > > RP actor, who understands more than one namespace, and MUST maintain > > > its locally significant relative priority order." > > >is still awkwardly worded, but the content is OK. > > > >I'm going to stick with your "ok"... > > > > > > > > >In section 5 I still have problems following this sentence > > > > > >"...the implications of using this > > > namespace within the field incorrectly can potentially cause a large > > > impact on a network, given that this indication is to give > > > preferential treatment of marked traffic great preference within the > > > network verses other traffic. " > > > > > >First, =C3=83=C2=A2=80=9Cmarked=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D coulcould= mean many different > > >things. Second, given that you have 5 different > > >priority levels, it is unlikely that they ALL > > >=C3=83=C2=A2=80=9Cgive preferentitial treatment t of marked > > >traffic great preference=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82=C2=9D (which is also= redundant). > > > > > >I still prefer > > > > > >=C3=83=C2=A2=80=9CIncorrectly using this namesespace within the > > >ReResource-Priority header field can cause a large > > >impact on a network. For some priority > > >values, this namespace can give great > > >preference within the network over other traffic.=C3=83=C2=A2=80=C3=82= =C2=9D > >This is the Sec-Cons sectioon, and the idea of > >marked packets or calls is the proper description. > > > > > > >Finally, I think it would make sense to include > > >an informative reference for "MLPP-like behavior"- perhaps 4411. > > > >4411 creates, defines, describes how the > >preemption indication is communicated, which has > >nothing directly to do with this doc. If > >anything, MLPP is described in 4412 which is > >already a normative reference in this doc. > > > >James > > > >BTW - the subject line is wrong above, it's not > >"draft-ietf-ecrit-...-01.txt" anymore, it's > >"draft-polk-...-01.txt", making this a non-WG > >item. This gives me a far greater latitude in how I edit the doc... > > > > > > > > >Janet > > > > > >This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the > > >intended recipient, please delete without > > >copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. > > >NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall > > >not operate to bind CSC to any order or other > > >contract unless pursuant to explicit written > > >agreement or government initiative expressly > > >permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Ecrit mailing list > > >Ecrit@ietf.org > > >ht > > tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit > > From md3135@att.com Thu Jun 16 12:40:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB0011E8224 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.381 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.381 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ot4P7UNq+Grb for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com (mail120.messagelabs.com [216.82.250.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E371711E8238 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: md3135@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1308253222!23156720!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.146] Received: (qmail 15014 invoked from network); 16 Jun 2011 19:40:23 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp7.sbc.com (HELO mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.146) by server-4.tower-120.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 16 Jun 2011 19:40:23 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p5GJdEIX008313 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:39:15 -0400 Received: from gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com (gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com [135.53.26.19]) by mlpd194.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p5GJd9rj008178 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:39:09 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:40:15 -0400 Message-ID: <14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA093DBF29@gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was Re:draft-ietf-ecrit-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01 Thread-Index: AcwsXK0mu78CLHa9SBGT+5Zi4UYXNwAAIn4x From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI)" To: Cc: "DALY, BRIAN K \(ATTSI\)" , ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-polk-local-emergency-rph-namespace-01.txt was 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Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2Vjcml0Pmh0DQo+ID4gdHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZWNyaXQNCj4gPg0KDQo= From internet-drafts@ietf.org Mon Jun 20 04:29:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD29011E810D; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:29:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsnVa-kAbAnY; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E488A11E807A; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:29:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.55 Message-ID: <20110620112944.14754.98331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 04:29:44 -0700 Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: [Ecrit] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-11.txt X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:29:45 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Int= ernet Technologies Working Group of the IETF. Title : Synchronizing Location-to-Service Translation (LoST) Pro= tocol based Service Boundaries and Mapping Elements Author(s) : Henning Schulzrinne Hannes Tschofenig Filename : draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-11.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2011-06-20 The Location-to-Service Translation (LoST) protocol is an XML-based protocol for mapping service identifiers and geodetic or civic location information to service URIs and service boundaries. In particular, it can be used to determine the location-appropriate Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) for emergency services. The main data structure, the <mapping> element, used for encapsulating information about service boundaries is defined in the LoST protocol specification and circumscribes the region within which all locations map to the same service Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) or set of URIs for a given service. This document defines an XML protocol to exchange these mappings between two nodes. This mechanism is designed for the exchange of authoritative <mapping> elements between two entities. Exchanging cached <mapping> elements, i.e. non-authoritative elements, is possible but not envisioned. In any case, this document can also be used without the LoST protocol even though the format of the <mapping> element is re-used from the LoST specification. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-11.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-11.txt From hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net Mon Jun 20 05:51:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D3011E8092 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:51:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G86aNh7Dlv3A for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E417211E8096 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 05:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jun 2011 12:51:17 -0000 Received: from letku214.adsl.netsonic.fi (EHLO [10.0.0.8]) [194.29.195.214] by mail.gmx.net (mp063) with SMTP; 20 Jun 2011 14:51:17 +0200 X-Authenticated: #29516787 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/ZVOQjqK7ZHDY2ufcremYOLyBfHEwoexQ+SsWReg A0wPIFibKa9b19 From: Hannes Tschofenig Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:51:16 +0300 Message-Id: <93E6E44E-C610-4366-88B5-3D99A659895E@gmx.net> To: ecrit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-11.txt X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:51:21 -0000 Hi all=20 some time ago we asked for a review from the XML directorate.=20 It took some time to get this review. Andy kindly enough did this = review.=20 He found a couple of bugs in the examples; I fixed them with this draft = update.=20 New version is here:=20 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-11.txt There are no open issues with this document. Ciao Hannes From brian.rosen@neustar.biz Mon Jun 20 08:57:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3EF9E802F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:57:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.240, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X7eCbjbmXPGO for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neustar.com (smartmail.neustar.com [156.154.17.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DEF89E8029 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=neustar.biz; s=neustarbiz; t=1308585470; x=1623925490; q=dns/txt; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Language: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=rulrlbUIny0yccV1oFoNy DN7s+Jl0Dksv39wfnMnuQw=; b=iCtXlSpZwCEFASahKS5tge1D94APeXkgPkV1F DPXVX3qmwYnZ3XJCs2j1fnWyvwAZFICmAlVpRubez4AaVjbFw== Received: from ([10.31.13.228]) by stihiron2.va.neustar.com with ESMTP with TLS id 5202732.46611093; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:57:49 -0400 Received: from STNTEXCH01.cis.neustar.com ([fe80::31b6:4d09:2ada:e6c0]) by STNTEXCHHT01.cis.neustar.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:57:48 -0400 From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:57:47 -0400 Thread-Topic: Whose standards in -phonebcp Thread-Index: AcwvYs0DMQLmKQg0ROGVB447gU2NrQ== Message-ID: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US x-ems-proccessed: R64IxjzeHPwwd+efoj3ZcA== x-ems-stamp: JGwwXGEHrg8xyJ2Cqkv1SQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:57:57 -0000 Steven Farrell said (in a comment): > (1) Abstract could make it clear if this doc just addresses > BCP for IETF docs or also for others as well, and if others > are included which SDOs? The relevant text is: The IETF and other standards organization have efforts targeted at standard= izing various aspects of placing emergency=20 calls on IP networks. This memo describes best current practice on how devi= ces, networks and services should use=20 such standards to make emergency calls. I believe "other standards organizations" refers to other location configur= ation protocols. One way to address this is just to ignore the other SDOs= and drop "other standards organizations". Another is to explicitly say "u= se IETF standards". I am inclined to do the former. Any other suggestions? Brian= From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 09:27:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C1B1F0C67 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:27:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.208, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VJDJHe5PG7e1 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s18.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s18.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.157]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A2061F0C64 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU152-W26 ([65.55.111.136]) by blu0-omc4-s18.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:27:51 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_bb030cd1-9309-4801-a731-d34c627a36be_" X-Originating-IP: [98.203.198.61] From: Bernard Aboba To: , Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:27:51 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> References: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jun 2011 16:27:51.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[003AC410:01CC2F67] Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 16:27:53 -0000 --_bb030cd1-9309-4801-a731-d34c627a36be_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dropping "and other standards organizations" works for me.=20 > From: Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz > To: ecrit@ietf.org > Date: Mon=2C 20 Jun 2011 11:57:47 -0400 > Subject: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp >=20 > Steven Farrell said (in a comment): > > (1) Abstract could make it clear if this doc just addresses > > BCP for IETF docs or also for others as well=2C and if others > > are included which SDOs? >=20 >=20 > The relevant text is: > The IETF and other standards organization have efforts targeted at standa= rdizing various aspects of placing emergency=20 > calls on IP networks. This memo describes best current practice on how de= vices=2C networks and services should use=20 > such standards to make emergency calls. >=20 > I believe "other standards organizations" refers to other location config= uration protocols. One way to address this is just to ignore the other SD= Os and drop "other standards organizations". Another is to explicitly say = "use IETF standards". I am inclined to do the former. >=20 > Any other suggestions? >=20 >=20 > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit = --_bb030cd1-9309-4801-a731-d34c627a36be_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dropping "and other standards organizations" works for me.

>= =3B From: Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz
>=3B To: ecrit@ietf.org
>=3B Da= te: Mon=2C 20 Jun 2011 11:57:47 -0400
>=3B Subject: [Ecrit] Whose stan= dards in -phonebcp
>=3B
>=3B Steven Farrell said (in a comment):=
>=3B >=3B (1) Abstract could make it clear if this doc just address= es
>=3B >=3B BCP for IETF docs or also for others as well=2C and if = others
>=3B >=3B are included which SDOs?
>=3B
>=3B
&= gt=3B The relevant text is:
>=3B The IETF and other standards organiza= tion have efforts targeted at standardizing various aspects of placing emer= gency
>=3B calls on IP networks. This memo describes best current pra= ctice on how devices=2C networks and services should use
>=3B such st= andards to make emergency calls.
>=3B
>=3B I believe "other stan= dards organizations" refers to other location configuration protocols. On= e way to address this is just to ignore the other SDOs and drop "other stan= dards organizations". Another is to explicitly say "use IETF standards". = I am inclined to do the former.
>=3B
>=3B Any other suggestions?=
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B Brian
>=3B __________________________= _____________________
>=3B Ecrit mailing list
>=3B Ecrit@ietf.org=
>=3B https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
=
= --_bb030cd1-9309-4801-a731-d34c627a36be_-- From hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net Mon Jun 20 09:33:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2637A11E809B for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10-mDKgBWaRC for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 10D7C11E8070 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 20 Jun 2011 16:33:44 -0000 Received: from letku214.adsl.netsonic.fi (EHLO [10.0.0.8]) [194.29.195.214] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 20 Jun 2011 18:33:44 +0200 X-Authenticated: #29516787 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19fuJIEZz9fOOXhUxVBuKZt0FyVRxpe8nWyVA4QOY HHGdAqueDA4aNX Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Hannes Tschofenig In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:33:42 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> To: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 Cc: brian.rosen@neustar.biz, ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 16:33:47 -0000 Fine for me as well. Not a big deal in general. On Jun 20, 2011, at 7:27 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Dropping "and other standards organizations" works for me.=20 >=20 > > From: Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz > > To: ecrit@ietf.org > > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:57:47 -0400 > > Subject: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp > >=20 > > Steven Farrell said (in a comment): > > > (1) Abstract could make it clear if this doc just addresses > > > BCP for IETF docs or also for others as well, and if others > > > are included which SDOs? > >=20 > >=20 > > The relevant text is: > > The IETF and other standards organization have efforts targeted at = standardizing various aspects of placing emergency=20 > > calls on IP networks. This memo describes best current practice on = how devices, networks and services should use=20 > > such standards to make emergency calls. > >=20 > > I believe "other standards organizations" refers to other location = configuration protocols. One way to address this is just to ignore the = other SDOs and drop "other standards organizations". Another is to = explicitly say "use IETF standards". I am inclined to do the former. > >=20 > > Any other suggestions? > >=20 > >=20 > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > > Ecrit mailing list > > Ecrit@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From rbarnes@bbn.com Mon Jun 20 10:13:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA50011E816D for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 10:13:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rz3N2Z3Es1P5 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 10:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC3211E8163 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 10:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.89.253.103] (port=58962 helo=[172.27.17.202]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.74 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1QYi2a-000Acw-Ld; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:13:36 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:13:34 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> To: "Rosen, Brian" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:13:38 -0000 Could we just drop the first sentence altogether? " This memo describes best current practices on how devices, networks, and = services should use Internet protocols to make emergency calls. " On Jun 20, 2011, at 11:57 AM, Rosen, Brian wrote: > Steven Farrell said (in a comment): >> (1) Abstract could make it clear if this doc just addresses >> BCP for IETF docs or also for others as well, and if others >> are included which SDOs? >=20 >=20 > The relevant text is: > The IETF and other standards organization have efforts targeted at = standardizing various aspects of placing emergency=20 > calls on IP networks. This memo describes best current practice on how = devices, networks and services should use=20 > such standards to make emergency calls. >=20 > I believe "other standards organizations" refers to other location = configuration protocols. One way to address this is just to ignore the = other SDOs and drop "other standards organizations". Another is to = explicitly say "use IETF standards". I am inclined to do the former. >=20 > Any other suggestions? >=20 >=20 > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From turners@ieca.com Mon Jun 20 14:04:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF98711E8120 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:04:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.955 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.955 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.643, BAYES_00=-2.599, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YIJRmFeE0JDC for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F1191F0C4F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [98.139.212.148] by nm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2011 21:04:15 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.207] by tm5.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2011 21:04:15 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Jun 2011 21:04:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 857158.48441.bm@omp1016.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 53616 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2011 21:04:15 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1308603855; bh=1tAQDx9bivd2OmCXz86Uj6tecsQznvwIscVkixolAyg=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:Date:From:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=SXcHzw0isJuX2xicexTA1VLVWqktiNo4/vLiUarq+Nk0opGMDgGbAC28/3gWFSIVcFsO7EjxY2XTAV6ZSOuGbKDyW/aWMcwGhdZRxhH2sYfCtm874sWX3zaB+3IqTRGI4jdtRwkC5EEw1FHH2TQd/NgqAQ49q1CrYQzIQ+9IFtE= X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: B28cdDQVM1mgSMDWZ8yCNRjNSmSoYHMQ_1ftmgNHZUEsrOF Aldc.t41xne.r5qsRAx.s7Jr325rfrVXOv.HMAA2i__u3A109YQdw3VSwiUW 0E.pRgan34YvBFWjCJsOQ6xreqDm6n0n9BiU2US7QPuE3hltgl2ozLe7vBn2 tZ98TNjvC4YsiyeHCBqTYwS6fJIogjh0it6rmg60gW.Xuhj7vMg7yJfaELI1 A2f4Vd1mluIOikbKEqfLdOacyRMMiCV37u18amgHqLFJNUH_ySl1lYMP1z85 WM5SQ3oa69h7JlWlO.kpPYB48YienXf9aLARbuithy5vwU0mAcDqTOtusuna YfZxY0ksRTqFU1RljIx2Av5OJ86GFhfmOBEqjHfpRnuY2Xn17Kvvvvme3yo4 X.lLF0rAgL9dxw66_wBS2scaTPqLJqROLaiEXnT9L3P4DGn8SzjgasIVYCbv qH00nvvcX4GKYYJIuuPI4Fw-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: ZrP3VLSswBDL75pF8ymZHDSu9B.vcMfDPgLJ Received: from thunderfish.westell.com (turners@96.231.124.103 with plain) by smtp112.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jun 2011 14:04:14 -0700 PDT Message-ID: <4DFFB5CD.605@ieca.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:04:13 -0400 From: Sean Turner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Rosen References: <20110427161005.8104.78165.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <14EBC61F-348C-4587-B4F7-23869089B736@brianrosen.net> <4DB96A5B.2090100@ieca.com> <0B612AE2-2969-4D89-B868-1BFAEFF2C3FD@brianrosen.net> In-Reply-To: <0B612AE2-2969-4D89-B868-1BFAEFF2C3FD@brianrosen.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:37:03 -0700 Cc: ecrit-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp@tools.ietf.org, The IESG , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Sean Turner's Discuss on draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:04:19 -0000 Brian, That'd work for me. spt On 6/20/11 12:15 PM, Brian Rosen wrote: > I propose: > Endpoints, Intermediate Devices and Service Providers receiving > other forms of location representation MUST map them into either > a geo or civic for use in emergency calls. > > Brian > > On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:23 AM, Sean Turner wrote: > >> On 4/27/11 9:15 PM, Brian Rosen wrote: >>> See inline for my responses >>> >>> On Apr 27, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Sean Turner wrote: >>> >>>> Sean Turner has entered the following ballot position for >>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-17: Discuss >>>> >>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>> >>>> Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> DISCUSS: >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> This is an updated discuss. >>>> >>>> Section 6.1: For the 1st paragraph which entity is the requirement on? All the other requirements statements are targeted at an entity or entities. >>> I get the point. It might be a bit difficult to word, but I'll take a shot at it. It applies to any entity that gets location from somewhere other than a mechanism that delivers a PIDF. >>> >>>> >>>> ED-74 made me wonder whether there should be a statement that if the endpoints support video it should remain on? >>> I'm not aware of anything approaching silence suppression with video. Motion sensing? Even something like blanking the video when you detected silence doesn't work at all. >>> >>> Before we have a requirement, it would be nice if we had a real problem. I would propose that we not do anything. >> >> Fair enough. I'll update the discuss to nix this bit. >> >> Thanks, >> >> spt > > From brian.rosen@neustar.biz Mon Jun 20 14:54:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B8E9E800F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:54:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.122 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZeVo8s82nMY for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neustar.com (keys.neustar.biz [156.154.17.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082529E800D for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 14:54:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=neustar.biz; s=neustarbiz; t=1308606886; x=1623965049; q=dns/txt; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Language: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=qjNq4AqOkoHPO+kSLZi6v Vx3fzxQ1YgFGS5dtCx4K5s=; b=U5wW+doXuK1rRkyG4OvcfFMPkUN/a2HMtI6MQ HywtCyFcynDDnn1H0EKwW88I2JQ8eb1WJW2GfWwFNUBD593Iw== Received: from ([10.31.13.228]) by stihiron1.va.neustar.com with ESMTP with TLS id G6K7MJ1.24052308; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:54:45 -0400 Received: from STNTEXCH01.cis.neustar.com ([fe80::31b6:4d09:2ada:e6c0]) by STNTEXCHHT01.cis.neustar.com ([::1]) with mapi; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:54:40 -0400 From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:54:38 -0400 Thread-Topic: Who has to support HELD/DHCP? Thread-Index: AcwvlKbrJ1McwxpIRGCPx/EuU8t5yw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US x-ems-proccessed: R64IxjzeHPwwd+efoj3ZcA== x-ems-stamp: G/KKdElJY6V+i1aL2DICkw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:54:50 -0000 Pete Resnick has a DISCUSS on -phonebcp on AN-13/INT-14 ED-21/INT-13 Devices MUST support both the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP) location options [RFC4776], [RFC3825] and HTTP Enabled Location Delivery (HELD) [RFC5985]. When devices deploy a specific access network interface for which location configuration mechanisms such as Link Layer Discovery Protocol - Media Endpoint Discovery (LLDP-MED) [LLDP-MED] or 802.11v are specified, the device SHOULD support the additional respective access network specific location configuration mechanism. AN-13/INT-14 The access network MUST support either DHCP location=20 options or HELD. The access network SHOULD support other location=20 configuration technologies that are specific to the type of access networ= k. There are a couple of issues. One is when a proxy is providing location. = In that case, it doesn't need HELD or DHCP. Another is where there is an i= ntermediary device. The network doesn't have to support SIP/HELD if the in= termediary does. Another is where the network has a network specific LCP a= nd requires all devices to support it; don't need SIP/HELD there either What to do? It would be a big rework to try to get all of this in there, but that may b= e the best thing to do. I would a) Change MUST to SHOULD in ED-21/INT-13 and add a sentence that says if th= e access network requires support of a specific LCP, the endpoint MUST supp= ort it. b) Separate AN-13 from INT-14 c) Change AN-13 to say SHOULD support either, SHOULD support others, and MA= Y support only other(s) if it requires all devices and intermediary devices= connected to the network to support that one. MAY not provide LCP if all = services that could place calls can have a proxy insert location. d) Change INT-14 to say MUST support at least one of the LCPs the AN suppor= ts and must interwork to SIP or HELD. Probably needs some text in -framework to match This is a big change. =20 The simplest change is to add in AN-13 "Where the AN is certain all service= s that could place emergency calls have proxys that can insert location of = the endpoint, and it has relationships and compatible protocols implemented= with all such services to provide location, it MAY rely on such proxies to= provide location, rather than supply location to endpoints and intermediat= e devices". Other ideas? Brian= From rbarnes@bbn.com Mon Jun 20 15:33:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654C411E81D6 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d+wwUChMEYzM for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.bbn.com (smtp.bbn.com [128.33.0.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F63311E8103 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.89.253.103] (port=63039 helo=[172.27.17.202]) by smtp.bbn.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.74 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1QYn2V-000FjQ-UF; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:33:52 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: "Richard L. Barnes" In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:33:50 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8EA226D5-9896-43B2-9D6F-2BD18149C7B8@bbn.com> References: To: "Rosen, Brian" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:33:53 -0000 What's common to the three use cases you present is that they all assume = some out of band coupling between one or more of the players in the = ECRIT system. In the "proxy adding" case, the proxy is coupled with the = location server. In the "walled garden" case, the endpoint is coupled = with the network (at a deeper level than "using for IP access"). While in principle we could address these cases in ECRIT, you quickly = run into a combinatorial explosion problem given all the possible = agreements that the different actors could make. So my inclination is = to leave the problem alone altogether, or at most to say something = general, e.g.: " This document assumes the general case where the end device, access = network, and VoIP provider have no special association or configuration = other than existing basic service relationships, i.e., the end device = receiving IP service and VoIP service from the access network and VSP. = In cases where special arrangements exist, some interoperability = requirements may not apply. For example, a proxy that is provisioned = with an up-to-date list of mappings between dial strings and PSAP URIs = would not need to support LoST (see SP-25). =20 " --Richard P.S.: I thought we had this conversation before, and decided not to leave the = loophole. Quoth the minutes from IETF 73: " A Hum was taken in the room between a two-optioned approach to changes in the existing text around which LCPs are =93musts=94. The two options for the Hum, Option 1.) which is to make the wording in phonebcp read, =93end points MUST implement both HELD and DHCP, and if the device is an 802 wired device, it MUST implement LLDP. Option 2.) is to change text to as follows, =93MUST implement both of HELD and DHCP, period.=94, (with any other LCPs mentioned, as a MAY.) The results of the 2 Hums were inconclusive =96 so chairs will take it to the list. " I haven't been able to track down a conclusive answer to the hums in the = mailing list archives, but given that the room was OK with those two = choices, it seems like *adding* additional options for LCPs was not = really something that was supported. On Jun 20, 2011, at 5:54 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote: > Pete Resnick has a DISCUSS on -phonebcp on AN-13/INT-14 > ED-21/INT-13 Devices MUST support both the Dynamic Host Configuration > Protocol (DHCP) location options [RFC4776], [RFC3825] and HTTP > Enabled Location Delivery (HELD) [RFC5985]. When devices deploy a > specific access network interface for which location configuration > mechanisms such as Link Layer Discovery Protocol - Media Endpoint > Discovery (LLDP-MED) [LLDP-MED] or 802.11v are specified, the device > SHOULD support the additional respective access network specific > location configuration mechanism. >=20 > AN-13/INT-14 The access network MUST support either DHCP location=20 > options or HELD. The access network SHOULD support other location=20= > configuration technologies that are specific to the type of access = network. >=20 > There are a couple of issues. One is when a proxy is providing = location. In that case, it doesn't need HELD or DHCP. Another is where = there is an intermediary device. The network doesn't have to support = SIP/HELD if the intermediary does. Another is where the network has a = network specific LCP and requires all devices to support it; don't need = SIP/HELD there either >=20 > What to do? >=20 > It would be a big rework to try to get all of this in there, but that = may be the best thing to do. >=20 > I would > a) Change MUST to SHOULD in ED-21/INT-13 and add a sentence that says = if the access network requires support of a specific LCP, the endpoint = MUST support it. > b) Separate AN-13 from INT-14 > c) Change AN-13 to say SHOULD support either, SHOULD support others, = and MAY support only other(s) if it requires all devices and = intermediary devices connected to the network to support that one. MAY = not provide LCP if all services that could place calls can have a proxy = insert location. > d) Change INT-14 to say MUST support at least one of the LCPs the AN = supports and must interwork to SIP or HELD. >=20 > Probably needs some text in -framework to match >=20 > This is a big change. =20 >=20 > The simplest change is to add in AN-13 "Where the AN is certain all = services that could place emergency calls have proxys that can insert = location of the endpoint, and it has relationships and compatible = protocols implemented with all such services to provide location, it MAY = rely on such proxies to provide location, rather than supply location to = endpoints and intermediate devices". >=20 > Other ideas? >=20 > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From Martin.Dawson@commscope.com Mon Jun 20 20:49:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2432B11E8191 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ty+DCZjHLE8d for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcsmgw01.commscope.com (fw.commscope.com [198.135.207.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F9D311E80DB for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:48:59 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 0a0404e8-b7baaae0000009ea-93-4e0014b644b2 Received: from ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com ( [10.86.20.103]) by cdcsmgw01.commscope.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 51.D2.02538.6B4100E4; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:49:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CDCE10HC2.commscope.com (10.86.20.22) by ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com (10.86.20.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.159.2; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:49:13 -0500 Received: from SISPE7HC1.commscope.com (10.97.4.12) by CDCE10HC2.commscope.com (10.86.20.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:49:12 -0500 Received: from SISPE7MB1.commscope.com ([fe80::9d82:a492:85e3:a293]) by SISPE7HC1.commscope.com ([fe80::8a9:4724:f6bb:3cdf%10]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:49:10 +0800 From: "Dawson, Martin" To: "Richard L. Barnes" , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:49:07 +0800 Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? Thread-Index: AcwvmwqUS8VkT83+StSX1MHMvanlJAAKmcmw Message-ID: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26C070@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> References: <8EA226D5-9896-43B2-9D6F-2BD18149C7B8@bbn.com> In-Reply-To: <8EA226D5-9896-43B2-9D6F-2BD18149C7B8@bbn.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 03:49:00 -0000 I agree with approach and (most of) the wording. The example isn't complete; at best the "would not need" is "wouldn't neces= sarily need". The dial strings may be insufficient and still require a geo-= based resolution of the PSAP URI. I'd suggest that an example isn't necessa= ry - example exceptions have a tendency to become a canonical exception. Cheers, Martin -----Original Message----- From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R= ichard L. Barnes Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 8:34 AM To: Rosen, Brian Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? What's common to the three use cases you present is that they all assume so= me out of band coupling between one or more of the players in the ECRIT sys= tem. In the "proxy adding" case, the proxy is coupled with the location se= rver. In the "walled garden" case, the endpoint is coupled with the networ= k (at a deeper level than "using for IP access"). While in principle we could address these cases in ECRIT, you quickly run i= nto a combinatorial explosion problem given all the possible agreements tha= t the different actors could make. So my inclination is to leave the probl= em alone altogether, or at most to say something general, e.g.: " This document assumes the general case where the end device, access network= , and VoIP provider have no special association or configuration other than= existing basic service relationships, i.e., the end device receiving IP se= rvice and VoIP service from the access network and VSP. In cases where spe= cial arrangements exist, some interoperability requirements may not apply. = For example, a proxy that is provisioned with an up-to-date list of mappin= gs between dial strings and PSAP URIs would not need to support LoST (see S= P-25). =20 " --Richard P.S.: I thought we had this conversation before, and decided not to leave the loo= phole. Quoth the minutes from IETF 73: " A Hum was taken in the room between a two-optioned approach to changes in the existing text around which LCPs are "musts". The two options for the Hum, Option 1.) which is to make the wording in phonebcp read, "end points MUST implement both HELD and DHCP, and if the device is an 802 wired device, it MUST implement LLDP. Option 2.) is to change text to as follows, "MUST implement both of HELD and DHCP, period.", (with any other LCPs mentioned, as a MAY.) The results of the 2 Hums were inconclusive - so chairs will take it to the list. " I haven't been able to track down a conclusive answer to the hums in the ma= iling list archives, but given that the room was OK with those two choices,= it seems like *adding* additional options for LCPs was not really somethin= g that was supported. On Jun 20, 2011, at 5:54 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote: > Pete Resnick has a DISCUSS on -phonebcp on AN-13/INT-14 > ED-21/INT-13 Devices MUST support both the Dynamic Host Configuration > Protocol (DHCP) location options [RFC4776], [RFC3825] and HTTP > Enabled Location Delivery (HELD) [RFC5985]. When devices deploy a > specific access network interface for which location configuration > mechanisms such as Link Layer Discovery Protocol - Media Endpoint > Discovery (LLDP-MED) [LLDP-MED] or 802.11v are specified, the device > SHOULD support the additional respective access network specific > location configuration mechanism. >=20 > AN-13/INT-14 The access network MUST support either DHCP location=20 > options or HELD. The access network SHOULD support other location=20 > configuration technologies that are specific to the type of access netwo= rk. >=20 > There are a couple of issues. One is when a proxy is providing location.= In that case, it doesn't need HELD or DHCP. Another is where there is an= intermediary device. The network doesn't have to support SIP/HELD if the = intermediary does. Another is where the network has a network specific LCP= and requires all devices to support it; don't need SIP/HELD there either >=20 > What to do? >=20 > It would be a big rework to try to get all of this in there, but that may= be the best thing to do. >=20 > I would > a) Change MUST to SHOULD in ED-21/INT-13 and add a sentence that says if = the access network requires support of a specific LCP, the endpoint MUST su= pport it. > b) Separate AN-13 from INT-14 > c) Change AN-13 to say SHOULD support either, SHOULD support others, and = MAY support only other(s) if it requires all devices and intermediary devic= es connected to the network to support that one. MAY not provide LCP if al= l services that could place calls can have a proxy insert location. > d) Change INT-14 to say MUST support at least one of the LCPs the AN supp= orts and must interwork to SIP or HELD. >=20 > Probably needs some text in -framework to match >=20 > This is a big change. =20 >=20 > The simplest change is to add in AN-13 "Where the AN is certain all servi= ces that could place emergency calls have proxys that can insert location o= f the endpoint, and it has relationships and compatible protocols implement= ed with all such services to provide location, it MAY rely on such proxies = to provide location, rather than supply location to endpoints and intermedi= ate devices". >=20 > Other ideas? >=20 > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit _______________________________________________ Ecrit mailing list Ecrit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From mlinsner@cisco.com Tue Jun 21 07:26:36 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DD611E8139 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:26:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJU0N2ue-E34 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2410011E80C9 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:26:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=mlinsner@cisco.com; l=6600; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1308666395; x=1309875995; h=date:subject:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:mime-version: content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hm+6GDcPjwsLkydbBupZW1ttOdvFf+TMdD2QgjT5ePk=; b=SgT5INoAMVhvCHK+jukIfEeHdzb2r7tmoZRPMILJPjshhzVftlJjv2Mj m5RJCu8P3nkkTGieHdRRvdsYxTIS3Gchl9mjjgFEbGopUL9gykL+vkCPt r1S0u5jtd6FMTHFEx2AJAM60VCyknOmqFqvu1f0JhlbgxGdU44YpozJC7 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgMHAJepAE6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABUpnBwB6kwgR2eSYYqBJFmhGKLQA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,401,1304294400"; d="scan'208";a="382202813" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jun 2011 14:26:16 +0000 Received: from [10.116.195.124] (rtp-mlinsner-87111.cisco.com [10.116.195.124]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5LEQAOF005151 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:26:15 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.10.0.110310 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:26:08 -0400 From: Marc Linsner To: "ecrit@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? In-Reply-To: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26C070@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:26:36 -0000 How about: "This document assumes the general case where the end device, access network, and VoIP provider have no association or configuration other than a common customer, i.e., the end device is receiving IP service from the access provider and VoIP service from the VoIP provider. In the case where there is an association between the various service providers, some interoperability requirements may not apply." -Marc- -----Original Message----- From: "Dawson, Martin" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:49:07 +0800 To: "Richard L. Barnes" , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? >I agree with approach and (most of) the wording. > >The example isn't complete; at best the "would not need" is "wouldn't >necessarily need". The dial strings may be insufficient and still require >a geo-based resolution of the PSAP URI. I'd suggest that an example isn't >necessary - example exceptions have a tendency to become a canonical >exception. > >Cheers, >Martin > >-----Original Message----- >From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >Richard L. Barnes >Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 8:34 AM >To: Rosen, Brian >Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Org >Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? > > > >What's common to the three use cases you present is that they all assume >some out of band coupling between one or more of the players in the ECRIT >system. In the "proxy adding" case, the proxy is coupled with the >location server. In the "walled garden" case, the endpoint is coupled >with the network (at a deeper level than "using for IP access"). > >While in principle we could address these cases in ECRIT, you quickly run >into a combinatorial explosion problem given all the possible agreements >that the different actors could make. So my inclination is to leave the >problem alone altogether, or at most to say something general, e.g.: >" >This document assumes the general case where the end device, access >network, and VoIP provider have no special association or configuration >other than existing basic service relationships, i.e., the end device >receiving IP service and VoIP service from the access network and VSP. >In cases where special arrangements exist, some interoperability >requirements may not apply. For example, a proxy that is provisioned >with an up-to-date list of mappings between dial strings and PSAP URIs >would not need to support LoST (see SP-25). >" > >--Richard > > >P.S.: > >I thought we had this conversation before, and decided not to leave the >loophole. Quoth the minutes from IETF 73: >" >A Hum was taken in the room between a two-optioned approach to changes >in the existing text around which LCPs are "musts". The two options >for the Hum, Option 1.) which is to make the wording in phonebcp read, >"end points MUST implement both HELD and DHCP, and if the device is >an 802 wired device, it MUST implement LLDP. Option 2.) is to change >text to as follows, "MUST implement both of HELD and DHCP, period.", >(with any other LCPs mentioned, as a MAY.) The results of the 2 Hums >were inconclusive - so chairs will take it to the list. >" >I haven't been able to track down a conclusive answer to the hums in the >mailing list archives, but given that the room was OK with those two >choices, it seems like *adding* additional options for LCPs was not >really something that was supported. > > > > >On Jun 20, 2011, at 5:54 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote: > >> Pete Resnick has a DISCUSS on -phonebcp on AN-13/INT-14 >> ED-21/INT-13 Devices MUST support both the Dynamic Host Configuration >> Protocol (DHCP) location options [RFC4776], [RFC3825] and HTTP >> Enabled Location Delivery (HELD) [RFC5985]. When devices deploy a >> specific access network interface for which location configuration >> mechanisms such as Link Layer Discovery Protocol - Media Endpoint >> Discovery (LLDP-MED) [LLDP-MED] or 802.11v are specified, the device >> SHOULD support the additional respective access network specific >> location configuration mechanism. >> >> AN-13/INT-14 The access network MUST support either DHCP location >> options or HELD. The access network SHOULD support other location >> configuration technologies that are specific to the type of access >>network. >> >> There are a couple of issues. One is when a proxy is providing >>location. In that case, it doesn't need HELD or DHCP. Another is where >>there is an intermediary device. The network doesn't have to support >>SIP/HELD if the intermediary does. Another is where the network has a >>network specific LCP and requires all devices to support it; don't need >>SIP/HELD there either >> >> What to do? >> >> It would be a big rework to try to get all of this in there, but that >>may be the best thing to do. >> >> I would >> a) Change MUST to SHOULD in ED-21/INT-13 and add a sentence that says >>if the access network requires support of a specific LCP, the endpoint >>MUST support it. >> b) Separate AN-13 from INT-14 >> c) Change AN-13 to say SHOULD support either, SHOULD support others, >>and MAY support only other(s) if it requires all devices and >>intermediary devices connected to the network to support that one. MAY >>not provide LCP if all services that could place calls can have a proxy >>insert location. >> d) Change INT-14 to say MUST support at least one of the LCPs the AN >>supports and must interwork to SIP or HELD. >> >> Probably needs some text in -framework to match >> >> This is a big change. >> >> The simplest change is to add in AN-13 "Where the AN is certain all >>services that could place emergency calls have proxys that can insert >>location of the endpoint, and it has relationships and compatible >>protocols implemented with all such services to provide location, it MAY >>rely on such proxies to provide location, rather than supply location to >>endpoints and intermediate devices". >> >> Other ideas? >> >> Brian >> _______________________________________________ >> Ecrit mailing list >> Ecrit@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit > >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From brian.rosen@neustar.biz Tue Jun 21 13:39:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714ED11E807C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.211, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9x+c5jHECLtL for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neustar.com (smartmail.neustar.com [156.154.25.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A8B11E8075 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:39:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=neustar.biz; s=neustarbiz; t=1308688790; x=1624035321; q=dns/txt; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Language: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=gyvPVUI9EeTz3fVPt+Css Shj6pu+DujFv0AtybxCahk=; b=sGRrllZJj6EnuuStxZwEetoDU13s4W4vPKAK0 NrO8MXFeHV+4IlDCNj3pM8uzH5zW9AzULVDX2EL8oGqIl94ug== Received: from ([10.31.13.229]) by chihiron2.nc.neustar.com with ESMTP with TLS id 5202415.38710049; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:39:49 -0400 Received: from STNTEXCH01.cis.neustar.com ([fe80::31b6:4d09:2ada:e6c0]) by STNTEXCHHT02.cis.neustar.com ([::1]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:39:49 -0400 From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:39:47 -0400 Thread-Topic: Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? Thread-Index: AcwwU1zeR3hpO7IlRz62RyWUuZkefw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US x-ems-proccessed: R64IxjzeHPwwd+efoj3ZcA== x-ems-stamp: 0uo9GK/RChWtgtBOh5Sakw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:39:54 -0000 Section 6.2.4 of framework (Network Measured Location) has this: Location beacons: A short range wireless beacon, e.g., using Bluetooth or infrared, announces its location to mobile devices in the vicinity. This allows devices to get location from the beacon source's location. Pete says a beacon is end system measured location. How about we just delete it? I can move it if someone cares. Brian From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com Tue Jun 21 13:44:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF39C11E815E for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eu04z87nFqUa for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc4-s21.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s21.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.160]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D5711E8122 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU152-W13 ([65.55.111.136]) by blu0-omc4-s21.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:44:13 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_365b431c-f627-4db0-877f-b7d1053acf0d_" X-Originating-IP: [131.107.0.94] From: Bernard Aboba To: , Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:44:12 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jun 2011 20:44:13.0282 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAAAD420:01CC3053] Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:44:15 -0000 --_365b431c-f627-4db0-877f-b7d1053acf0d_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd be ok with deleting this paragraph. Neither bluetooth nor infrared ha= ve any significant deployment of AP-based infrastructures that could be used for location dete= rmination=2C so the paragraph made little sense anyway.=20 > From: Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz > To: ecrit@ietf.org > Date: Tue=2C 21 Jun 2011 16:39:47 -0400 > Subject: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location= and do we care? >=20 > Section 6.2.4 of framework (Network Measured Location) has this: > Location beacons: A short range wireless beacon=2C e.g.=2C using > Bluetooth or infrared=2C announces its location to mobile devices i= n > the vicinity. This allows devices to get location from the beacon > source's location. >=20 >=20 > Pete says a beacon is end system measured location. >=20 > How about we just delete it? I can move it if someone cares. >=20 > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit = --_365b431c-f627-4db0-877f-b7d1053acf0d_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'd be ok with deleting this paragraph. =3B =3B Neither bluetooth n= or infrared have any significant
deployment of AP-based infrastructures = that could be used for location determination=2C so
the paragraph made l= ittle sense anyway.

>=3B From: Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz
&g= t=3B To: ecrit@ietf.org
>=3B Date: Tue=2C 21 Jun 2011 16:39:47 -0400>=3B Subject: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured l= ocation and do we care?
>=3B
>=3B Section 6.2.4 of framework (Ne= twork Measured Location) has this:
>=3B Location beacons: A short = range wireless beacon=2C e.g.=2C using
>=3B Bluetooth or infrare= d=2C announces its location to mobile devices in
>=3B the vicini= ty. This allows devices to get location from the beacon
>=3B so= urce's location.
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B Pete says a beacon is end = system measured location.
>=3B
>=3B How about we just delete it?= I can move it if someone cares.
>=3B
>=3B Brian
>=3B ____= ___________________________________________
>=3B Ecrit mailing list>=3B Ecrit@ietf.org
>=3B https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecri= t
= --_365b431c-f627-4db0-877f-b7d1053acf0d_-- From brian.rosen@neustar.biz Tue Jun 21 13:48:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AB411E807B for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.138 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.138 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A7XQ03GzDI2q for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neustar.com (keys.neustar.biz [156.154.17.104]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F390711E8071 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:48:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=neustar.biz; s=neustarbiz; t=1308689286; x=1624040726; q=dns/txt; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Language: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=ieOWhkA2r+M4eBfdROX1k mbe7UJ5EVNnDvbTTAUZ6zw=; b=MY/ZxmBvROsSTZVUjD/HVFXqEBnVUPAz7/A0D 8cNqy5qOyImuYE7sMGRn1CD7nCFkBbaXVTHxhYCWSpBr4vPng== Received: from ([10.31.13.242]) by stihiron2.va.neustar.com with ESMTP with TLS id 5202732.46669834; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:48:05 -0400 Received: from STNTEXCH01.cis.neustar.com ([fe80::31b6:4d09:2ada:e6c0]) by STNTEXCHHT03.cis.neustar.com ([::1]) with mapi; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:48:05 -0400 From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:48:03 -0400 Thread-Topic: Should I move text about VPNs Thread-Index: AcwwVIRDAB4OUmn6RtqiYT/4nh5qRw== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US x-ems-proccessed: R64IxjzeHPwwd+efoj3ZcA== x-ems-stamp: ZZvh38gA8OK42Rhy2jyEyA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ecrit] Should I move text about VPNs X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:48:09 -0000 Pete Resnick points out that some text in section 6.6 When location should = be considered, is misplaced. The VPN discussion is not about when, but abo= ut mechanism. If I move it (I'd move it up to 6.5), I have to move the corresponding requ= irements in -phonebcp (the sections align), and thus renumber them, and the= requirements between the old and new positions. I'll do it if the group t= hinks it's worth it, but at the moment, I'd prefer to wimp out and not. Brian= From mlinsner@cisco.com Tue Jun 21 13:48:11 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBF111E80E4 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:48:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KXEobZtk7T+q for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE4811E8071 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:48:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=mlinsner@cisco.com; l=864; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1308689290; x=1309898890; h=date:subject:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:mime-version: content-transfer-encoding; bh=O28YKbDo/SKLCrpjutNVEKt+MI68+RZ5nmgKzWm321s=; b=L3ATemUJwhyNemUda06ZmG6ZK7Ur8wCx9+h7Xl6KzArPue9xrSrZZP/x seD5CeRQcMRSA6zikAMk+xcmcBaR81Zz/cwe4CCtuAT8QnrtfGTPvC501 frJFw8qsVCwt1RfSetKOwUAYGbMepxJEKF1FSU4LpsQQcba9+rpQAPn51 c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAK4CAU6rRDoI/2dsb2JhbABUpwF3qhieLYYqBJFmhGKLQA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,402,1304294400"; d="scan'208";a="382570083" Received: from mtv-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.58.8]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jun 2011 20:48:10 +0000 Received: from [10.116.195.124] (rtp-mlinsner-87111.cisco.com [10.116.195.124]) by mtv-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5LKm6L2030051; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:48:08 GMT User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.10.0.110310 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:48:05 -0400 From: Marc Linsner To: "Rosen, Brian" , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:48:11 -0000 IMO, remove it. -Marc- -----Original Message----- From: "Rosen, Brian" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:39:47 -0400 To: "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Subject: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? >Section 6.2.4 of framework (Network Measured Location) has this: > Location beacons: A short range wireless beacon, e.g., using > Bluetooth or infrared, announces its location to mobile devices in > the vicinity. This allows devices to get location from the beacon > source's location. > > >Pete says a beacon is end system measured location. > >How about we just delete it? I can move it if someone cares. > >Brian >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From RMarshall@telecomsys.com Tue Jun 21 14:45:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3367011E80F7 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bxnbc4w0qZWC for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sea-mimesweep-1.telecomsys.com (sea-mimesweep-1.telecomsys.com [199.165.246.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4403C11E80ED for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEA-EXCHVS-2.telecomsys.com (unverified [10.32.12.6]) by sea-mimesweep-1.telecomsys.com (Clearswift SMTPRS 5.2.9) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:45:52 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:45:49 -0700 Message-ID: <8C837214C95C864C9F34F3635C2A65751A308F47@SEA-EXCHVS-2.telecomsys.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? Thread-Index: AcwwU1zeR3hpO7IlRz62RyWUuZkefwACS4Vg References: From: "Roger Marshall" To: "Rosen, Brian" , Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:45:55 -0000 I'm ok with seeing it deleted. -roger. -----Original Message----- From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rosen, Brian Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 1:40 PM To: ecrit@ietf.org Org Subject: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? Section 6.2.4 of framework (Network Measured Location) has this: Location beacons: A short range wireless beacon, e.g., using Bluetooth or infrared, announces its location to mobile devices in the vicinity. This allows devices to get location from the beacon source's location. Pete says a beacon is end system measured location. How about we just delete it? I can move it if someone cares. Brian _______________________________________________ Ecrit mailing list Ecrit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this message may be pr= ivileged and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, or res= ponsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review,= forwarding, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication o= r any attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this messa= ge in error, please notify the sender immediately, and delete it and all at= tachments from your computer and network. From jmpolk@cisco.com Tue Jun 21 15:02:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6D411E810D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.153, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LWhd6mvk1XL7 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com (sj-iport-6.cisco.com [171.71.176.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5A111E80D5 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; l=787; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1308693730; x=1309903330; h=message-id:date:to:from:subject:in-reply-to:references: mime-version; bh=3NemvuZrY3faYroLwiOI6f6McXEmZa0ETnykNwxofh4=; b=JbGr+Y0PbJRKN9JoBe8aIRwlMaIjD7KySWI8rTZakJNuJjjfEuYIeFN1 NDNGeTOw8w5DVEVBp2FCPeWxoIWbMh+RuF8ObXrHVPga9t49/Bndcwozy bZ4wVpSFqmpfbhkTu8NDzN6DH8XiJCzQkx5+6FdAnZ+WAsCAalbMxdHXf s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAIsUAU6rRDoG/2dsb2JhbABUpwZ3qlqeIYYqBIcimmg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,402,1304294400"; d="scan'208";a="719031532" Received: from mtv-core-1.cisco.com ([171.68.58.6]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Jun 2011 22:02:07 +0000 Received: from jmpolk-wxp01.cisco.com (rcdn-jmpolk-8711.cisco.com [10.99.80.18]) by mtv-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p5LM26QQ011768; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 22:02:06 GMT Message-Id: <201106212202.p5LM26QQ011768@mtv-core-1.cisco.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:02:00 -0500 To: "Rosen, Brian" , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Should I move text about VPNs X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 22:02:10 -0000 At 03:48 PM 6/21/2011, Rosen, Brian wrote: >Pete Resnick points out that some text in section 6.6 When location >should be considered, is misplaced. The VPN discussion is not about >when, but about mechanism. > >If I move it (I'd move it up to 6.5), I have to move the >corresponding requirements in -phonebcp (the sections align), and >thus renumber them, and the requirements between the old and new >positions. I'll do it if the group thinks it's worth it, but at the >moment, I'd prefer to wimp out and not. Whatever you do, this concept (I'd say 'text' but it might change) needs to remain in both docs. James >Brian >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From Martin.Dawson@commscope.com Tue Jun 21 19:07:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3FC11E80FB for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:07:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BlPqpLiiOp-T for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcsmgw02.commscope.com (fw.commscope.com [198.135.207.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC03C11E80C5 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 0a0404e9-b7c5fae000000985-30-4e014e51275a Received: from ACDCE7HC1.commscope.com ( [10.86.20.102]) by cdcsmgw02.commscope.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 2A.42.02437.15E410E4; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:07:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SISPE7HC2.commscope.com (10.97.4.13) by ACDCE7HC1.commscope.com (10.86.20.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.159.2; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:07:21 -0500 Received: from SISPE7MB1.commscope.com ([fe80::9d82:a492:85e3:a293]) by SISPE7HC2.commscope.com ([fe80::58c3:2447:f977:57c3%10]) with mapi; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:07:16 +0800 From: "Dawson, Martin" To: Roger Marshall , "Rosen, Brian" , "ecrit@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:07:16 +0800 Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? Thread-Index: AcwwU1zeR3hpO7IlRz62RyWUuZkefwACS4VgAAkfkLA= Message-ID: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26C1E8@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> References: <8C837214C95C864C9F34F3635C2A65751A308F47@SEA-EXCHVS-2.telecomsys.com> In-Reply-To: <8C837214C95C864C9F34F3635C2A65751A308F47@SEA-EXCHVS-2.telecomsys.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 02:07:05 -0000 And I'm ok with not seeing it... after it's deleted. Sorry; couldn't resist. Cheers, Martin -----Original Message----- From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R= oger Marshall Sent: Wednesday, 22 June 2011 7:46 AM To: Rosen, Brian; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured locati= on and do we care? I'm ok with seeing it deleted. -roger. -----Original Message----- From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rosen, Brian Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 1:40 PM To: ecrit@ietf.org Org Subject: [Ecrit] Is a beacon a network or an end system measured location and do we care? Section 6.2.4 of framework (Network Measured Location) has this: Location beacons: A short range wireless beacon, e.g., using Bluetooth or infrared, announces its location to mobile devices in the vicinity. This allows devices to get location from the beacon source's location. Pete says a beacon is end system measured location. How about we just delete it? I can move it if someone cares. Brian _______________________________________________ Ecrit mailing list Ecrit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this message may be pr= ivileged and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, or res= ponsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, any review,= forwarding, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication o= r any attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this messa= ge in error, please notify the sender immediately, and delete it and all at= tachments from your computer and network. _______________________________________________ Ecrit mailing list Ecrit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From Martin.Dawson@commscope.com Tue Jun 21 19:07:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4854311E80FB for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6p2xJ78f9G8W for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcsmgw01.commscope.com (fw.commscope.com [198.135.207.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5F6911E80C5 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:07:39 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 0a0404e8-b7baaae0000009ea-8b-4e014e76356f Received: from ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com ( [10.86.20.103]) by cdcsmgw01.commscope.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id F9.FA.02538.67E410E4; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:07:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SISPE7HC2.commscope.com (10.97.4.13) by ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com (10.86.20.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.159.2; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:07:54 -0500 Received: from SISPE7MB1.commscope.com ([fe80::9d82:a492:85e3:a293]) by SISPE7HC2.commscope.com ([fe80::58c3:2447:f977:57c3%10]) with mapi; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:07:52 +0800 From: "Dawson, Martin" To: "ecrit@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:07:51 +0800 Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? Thread-Index: AcwwH0zZEJEnzReqQ0ytPymZYk630AAYdTjw Message-ID: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26C1EA@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> References: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26C070@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 02:07:42 -0000 Yes; that's what I was thinking. Succinct. Cheers, Martin -----Original Message----- From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of M= arc Linsner Sent: Wednesday, 22 June 2011 12:26 AM To: ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? How about: "This document assumes the general case where the end device, access network, and VoIP provider have no association or configuration other than a common customer, i.e., the end device is receiving IP service from the access provider and VoIP service from the VoIP provider. In the case where there is an association between the various service providers, some interoperability requirements may not apply." -Marc- -----Original Message----- From: "Dawson, Martin" Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:49:07 +0800 To: "Richard L. Barnes" , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? >I agree with approach and (most of) the wording. > >The example isn't complete; at best the "would not need" is "wouldn't >necessarily need". The dial strings may be insufficient and still require >a geo-based resolution of the PSAP URI. I'd suggest that an example isn't >necessary - example exceptions have a tendency to become a canonical >exception. > >Cheers, >Martin > >-----Original Message----- >From: ecrit-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >Richard L. Barnes >Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 8:34 AM >To: Rosen, Brian >Cc: ecrit@ietf.org Org >Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Who has to support HELD/DHCP? > > > >What's common to the three use cases you present is that they all assume >some out of band coupling between one or more of the players in the ECRIT >system. In the "proxy adding" case, the proxy is coupled with the >location server. In the "walled garden" case, the endpoint is coupled >with the network (at a deeper level than "using for IP access"). > >While in principle we could address these cases in ECRIT, you quickly run >into a combinatorial explosion problem given all the possible agreements >that the different actors could make. So my inclination is to leave the >problem alone altogether, or at most to say something general, e.g.: >" >This document assumes the general case where the end device, access >network, and VoIP provider have no special association or configuration >other than existing basic service relationships, i.e., the end device >receiving IP service and VoIP service from the access network and VSP. >In cases where special arrangements exist, some interoperability >requirements may not apply. For example, a proxy that is provisioned >with an up-to-date list of mappings between dial strings and PSAP URIs >would not need to support LoST (see SP-25). >" > >--Richard > > >P.S.: > >I thought we had this conversation before, and decided not to leave the >loophole. Quoth the minutes from IETF 73: >" >A Hum was taken in the room between a two-optioned approach to changes >in the existing text around which LCPs are "musts". The two options >for the Hum, Option 1.) which is to make the wording in phonebcp read, >"end points MUST implement both HELD and DHCP, and if the device is >an 802 wired device, it MUST implement LLDP. Option 2.) is to change >text to as follows, "MUST implement both of HELD and DHCP, period.", >(with any other LCPs mentioned, as a MAY.) The results of the 2 Hums >were inconclusive - so chairs will take it to the list. >" >I haven't been able to track down a conclusive answer to the hums in the >mailing list archives, but given that the room was OK with those two >choices, it seems like *adding* additional options for LCPs was not >really something that was supported. > > > > >On Jun 20, 2011, at 5:54 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote: > >> Pete Resnick has a DISCUSS on -phonebcp on AN-13/INT-14 >> ED-21/INT-13 Devices MUST support both the Dynamic Host Configuration >> Protocol (DHCP) location options [RFC4776], [RFC3825] and HTTP >> Enabled Location Delivery (HELD) [RFC5985]. When devices deploy a >> specific access network interface for which location configuration >> mechanisms such as Link Layer Discovery Protocol - Media Endpoint >> Discovery (LLDP-MED) [LLDP-MED] or 802.11v are specified, the device >> SHOULD support the additional respective access network specific >> location configuration mechanism. >>=20 >> AN-13/INT-14 The access network MUST support either DHCP location >> options or HELD. The access network SHOULD support other location >> configuration technologies that are specific to the type of access >>network. >>=20 >> There are a couple of issues. One is when a proxy is providing >>location. In that case, it doesn't need HELD or DHCP. Another is where >>there is an intermediary device. The network doesn't have to support >>SIP/HELD if the intermediary does. Another is where the network has a >>network specific LCP and requires all devices to support it; don't need >>SIP/HELD there either >>=20 >> What to do? >>=20 >> It would be a big rework to try to get all of this in there, but that >>may be the best thing to do. >>=20 >> I would >> a) Change MUST to SHOULD in ED-21/INT-13 and add a sentence that says >>if the access network requires support of a specific LCP, the endpoint >>MUST support it. >> b) Separate AN-13 from INT-14 >> c) Change AN-13 to say SHOULD support either, SHOULD support others, >>and MAY support only other(s) if it requires all devices and >>intermediary devices connected to the network to support that one. MAY >>not provide LCP if all services that could place calls can have a proxy >>insert location. >> d) Change INT-14 to say MUST support at least one of the LCPs the AN >>supports and must interwork to SIP or HELD. >>=20 >> Probably needs some text in -framework to match >>=20 >> This is a big change. >>=20 >> The simplest change is to add in AN-13 "Where the AN is certain all >>services that could place emergency calls have proxys that can insert >>location of the endpoint, and it has relationships and compatible >>protocols implemented with all such services to provide location, it MAY >>rely on such proxies to provide location, rather than supply location to >>endpoints and intermediate devices". >>=20 >> Other ideas? >>=20 >> Brian >> _______________________________________________ >> Ecrit mailing list >> Ecrit@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit > >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit >_______________________________________________ >Ecrit mailing list >Ecrit@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit _______________________________________________ Ecrit mailing list Ecrit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit From dromasca@avaya.com Wed Jun 22 01:15:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FB021F8446; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.273 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.273 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.326, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZDJ4heM5SqU9; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com (de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.71.100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE46121F8443; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:15:33 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EADekAU7GmAcF/2dsb2JhbABUpw53rHACm2yGLQSWbIsM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,405,1304308800"; d="scan'208";a="252674220" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.5]) by de307622-de-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2011 04:15:31 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO 307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.140.12]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2011 04:15:06 -0400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:15:28 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7556C2A9-86AB-4C74-9E86-51729FA511F2@brianrosen.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Dan Romascanu's Discuss on draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AcwwRUvFve8V49WKT5OQoT6/2T46jAAbT5hw References: <20110427124143.8317.20417.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <8BEBE8CA-9CAC-404F-8E04-1A9732E25242@brianrosen.net> <7556C2A9-86AB-4C74-9E86-51729FA511F2@brianrosen.net> From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: "Brian Rosen" Cc: ecrit-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp@tools.ietf.org, The IESG , ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Dan Romascanu's Discuss on draft-ietf-ecrit-phonebcp-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:15:35 -0000 Hi Brian,=20 I will add one level of quoting, but take out all that is agreed. Very little is left.=20 Thanks and Regards, Dan=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Rosen [mailto:br@brianrosen.net] > >>> > >>> In a number of cases normative language appears to be used in ways > >>> different from those described in RFC 2119. In some cases, > >> the term > >>> "SHOULD" is used in situations where statutes or > >> regulations may mandate behavior. > >> We believe this to be the best choice. It's MUST except in > >> specified circumstances. The circumstances are when > >> regulations say otherwise. > > > > It would be good to clarify this in the document. > I went through the document SHOULDs and looked for cases where we > should say that. I didn't spot any. Could you point some out for me? >=20 What about ED-10 and ED-73? What are the reasons for these SHOULD not to be MUST? =20 > >>> > >>> I also find odd the fact that the document does not refer > >> at least informationaly to the NENA i2 and i3 architectures. > >> The behavior of the system and requirements may be different > >> in i2 and i3 environments. There are places where behavior > >> should be configurable or negotiated to allow for better > >> behavior in a transitional environment. There are also places > >> where behavior will be prescribed by local statues or > >> regulations, so that configuration and/or negotiation is a > >> practical requirement. > >> It would be inappropriate to refer to i2 and i3 in -phonebcp. > > > > Why? It's not about the specific North-American regulatory aspects, > it's > > about the fact that the document targets an all-IP architecture which > is > > associated to i3 for everybody who deals with emergency. > I covered "all-IP". Therefore i2 is not relevant. >=20 > i3 might be relevant only in that it defines PSAP requirements, the > mirror of this document. I still don't understand the value of a > reference here. I'll put one in -framework. >=20 > The only thing we could say is kind of weird - "This document is used > by other organizations who define PSAP interfaces, such as NENA i3". >=20 > We don't say anything in i3 that this document is dependent upon - it's > the other way around. >=20 Understood and agreed. Yet, any user, implementer, lawmaker, etc. looking into the requirements and architecture of an IP-based solution in North America will need to look at these two documents (at least) in tandem to have an understanding. This is why even the 'kind of weird' phrase would be useful IMO.=20 >=20 > > > >> I do think we could refer to it in -framework however, and > >> we will draft a paragraph that does that. > >> From randy@qualcomm.com Wed Jun 22 09:54:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5876F21F8505 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:54:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p3cGTMG64vh0 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0855721F84FF for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1308761680; x=1340297680; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20=0D=0A=20<892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neusta r.biz>|References:=20<892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C7 8@neustar.biz>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78 @neustar.biz>|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X |Date:=20Wed,=2022=20Jun=202011=2009:54:37=20-0700|To:=20 "Rosen,=20Brian"=20,=20"ecrit@ie tf.org=20Org"=0D=0A=09,=20Bernard=20Aboba =20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens =20|Subject:=20Re:=20[Ecrit]=20Whose =20standards=20in=20-phonebcp|MIME-Version:=201.0 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B =20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=fkiGMVAsj/NQ72ZjibBT/eXE0vEOM+/PBIjDGk0Z05k=; b=WKQpKJ+R4mnVXJyUc+StX7jbHI5k/1iU71SWm3gdJfWNbdKd5umVS92F Iw3ie1AtylLZ0998FwNr6TqQEamyFO7q7bk6VirCJN0B77vr9Mwpi4+Zr WLn4zkUxFR9wsqekRPCsKuMuDYQbMBaEL0TsyBaRv19pipMqCj4RRmvqL U=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6385"; a="99389662" Received: from ironmsg02-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.16]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 22 Jun 2011 09:54:40 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.65,406,1304319600"; d="scan'208";a="115997270" Received: from nasanexhc07.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.190]) by ironmsg02-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 22 Jun 2011 09:54:40 -0700 Received: from loud.pensive.org (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.270.1; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:54:40 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> References: <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> <892046A6-24C5-478B-9904-EB37567C1C78@neustar.biz> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:54:37 -0700 To: "Rosen, Brian" , "ecrit@ietf.org Org" , Bernard Aboba From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:54:42 -0000 I think dropping the first sentence and replacing "such" with "IETF" in the remaining sentence is a clean approach. Just to be clear, the remaining sentence goes from: This memo describes best current practice on how devices, networks and services should use such standards to make emergency calls. to: This memo describes best current practice on how devices, networks and services should use IETF standards to make emergency calls. At 11:57 AM -0400 6/20/11, Brian Rosen wrote: > Steven Farrell said (in a comment): > > (1) Abstract could make it clear if this doc just addresses >> BCP for IETF docs or also for others as well, and if others >> are included which SDOs? > > The relevant text is: > The IETF and other standards organization have efforts targeted at > standardizing various aspects of placing emergency > calls on IP networks. This memo describes best current practice on > how devices, networks and services should use > such standards to make emergency calls. > > I believe "other standards organizations" refers to other location > configuration protocols. One way to address this is just to > ignore the other SDOs and drop "other standards organizations". > Another is to explicitly say "use IETF standards". I am inclined > to do the former. > > Any other suggestions? > > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit At 9:27 AM -0700 6/20/11, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Dropping "and other standards organizations" works for me. > > > From: Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz >> To: ecrit@ietf.org >> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:57:47 -0400 >> Subject: [Ecrit] Whose standards in -phonebcp >> > ...snip... > > _______________________________________________ >> Ecrit mailing list >> Ecrit@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit > > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- All true wisdom is found on T-shirts. From Martin.Thomson@commscope.com Mon Jun 27 23:39:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A72A21F8681 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:39:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6kddARg9Kqm for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcsmgw02.commscope.com (fw.commscope.com [198.135.207.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8512121F866B for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:39:39 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 0a0404e9-b7c5fae000000985-fe-4e097734a4b3 Received: from ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com ( [10.86.20.103]) by cdcsmgw02.commscope.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 12.56.02437.437790E4; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 01:39:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SISPE7HC1.commscope.com (10.97.4.12) by ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com (10.86.20.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.159.2; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 01:40:07 -0500 Received: from SISPE7MB1.commscope.com ([fe80::9d82:a492:85e3:a293]) by SISPE7HC1.commscope.com ([fe80::8a9:4724:f6bb:3cdf%10]) with mapi; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:40:07 +0800 From: "Thomson, Martin" To: "christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:40:09 +0800 Thread-Topic: PSAP callback Thread-Index: Acw1Xjl8KWX6PyjFSeORSy+kDda55Q== Message-ID: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26C9D9@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-puzzleid: {C62AB6A1-CC99-4601-84A0-437878EE2097} x-cr-hashedpuzzle: B0qF DSzB DgbI F1B7 GNKo G61+ I4oq MiYB Mkc0 M4vK Nlyk Nuxy P7r8 Qzvk UGXa UvVh; 2; YwBoAHIAaQBzAHQAZQByAC4AaABvAGwAbQBiAGUAcgBnAEAAZQByAGkAYwBzAHMAbwBuAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBlAGMAcgBpAHQAQABpAGUAdABmAC4AbwByAGcA; Sosha1_v1; 7; {C62AB6A1-CC99-4601-84A0-437878EE2097}; bQBhAHIAdABpAG4ALgB0AGgAbwBtAHMAbwBuAEAAYwBvAG0AbQBzAGMAbwBwAGUALgBjAG8AbQA=; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:40:09 GMT;UABTAEEAUAAgAGMAYQBsAGwAYgBhAGMAawA= acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "ecrit@ietf.org" Subject: [Ecrit] PSAP callback X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 06:39:40 -0000 Christer, Looking at draft-holmberg-ecrit-callback-00, I'm struggling with the necess= ity of the sip.psap.callback tag. The idea that I recall being floated is very similar to the one I see propo= sed here. That used a GRUU but no explicit tag. This is subtly different = and I can't see a reason why it is better. This could be a very simple thing to specify. Adding the tag could actuall= y make it harder. =09 In your proposal, registrations and calls initiated by the UAC include a sp= ecial tag that indicates that this particular contact is for PSAP callback = purposes. That tag shouldn't be necessary - the knowledge is really only n= ecessary at the UAC - the UAC would just request a couple of extra GRUUs (p= erhaps by making a new instance id). In my recollection, one GRUU (temp or pub depending on anonymity requiremen= ts) the was identified by the UAC as its "emergency" GRUU. This GRUU is he= nceforth only ever used for emergency call initiation. Calls were identifi= ed as a callback because no one but a PSAP ever gets a call from the "emerg= ency" GRUU. The difference is that in your proposal, there is an explicit indicator thr= oughout the network. I'm not certain that this is necessary, or even helpf= ul. In some constrained environments, it might be possible to hang some sp= ecial policy off the tag, but that leaves it open to abuse elsewhere. As long as call treatment is either sufficiently conducive to a callback, o= r can be trivially modified to be based on a particular target URI (the "em= ergency" GRUU), then a special tag is more hindrance than help. If steps are taken to disable certain call controls for callbacks based on = the presence of the tag, then that can be abused. We've already pretty muc= h written off the idea of validating a tag. As long as you construct an "emergency" GRUU that is difficult to guess [*]= and only use it for emergency calling, then you could relax call screening= rules. Abuse is only a problem after the "emergency" GRUU is used. =20 [*] RFC 5627 specifically doesn't provide this property (see Sec10.1), advi= sing the use of call screening, so might be cause for the inclusion of a ta= g in the registration, if only to gain that property. --Martin From Martin.Thomson@commscope.com Tue Jun 28 23:37:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ecrit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2C59E801E for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:37:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hoxs0XRaAyiY for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcsmgw01.commscope.com (fw.commscope.com [198.135.207.129]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED199E801B for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 0a0404e8-b7baaae0000009ea-e1-4e0ac820d85a Received: from ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com ( [10.86.20.103]) by cdcsmgw01.commscope.com (Symantec Brightmail Gateway) with SMTP id 13.B0.02538.028CA0E4; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:37:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SISPE7HC1.commscope.com (10.97.4.12) by ACDCE7HC2.commscope.com (10.86.20.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.159.2; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:37:32 -0500 Received: from SISPE7MB1.commscope.com ([fe80::9d82:a492:85e3:a293]) by SISPE7HC1.commscope.com ([fe80::8a9:4724:f6bb:3cdf%10]) with mapi; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:36:38 +0800 From: "Thomson, Martin" To: "ecrit@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:37:27 +0800 Thread-Topic: Unauthenticated access review Thread-Index: Acw2JwNffVbX44QpSVqIy7F4clYdMg== Message-ID: <8B0A9FCBB9832F43971E38010638454F040B26CBA8@SISPE7MB1.commscope.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [Ecrit] Unauthenticated access review X-BeenThere: ecrit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 06:37:10 -0000 -02 is a considerable improvement over earlier iterations of this work. I'm a little concerned about the suggested flow for NAA, specifically the p= otential for abuse and what options are available for an operator. The sec= urity considerations discusses this issue reasonably well, but it takes a f= airly weak position, preferring to shunt the problem than deal with it outr= ight. >From the perspective of an operator, the potential for abuse is increased w= hen they have to permit signaling to an arbitrary ASP. Permitting the path= to anything other than NASP from NAA reduces an operator's ability to cons= train network access. In NASP, the ISP need only provide access to a LIS, = a LoST server and the emergency services network. Normal call procedures a= re great, but it is a lot harder to constrain access when you can't predict= what ASP a device is going to use. =20 Of course, constraints might not be Boolean condition - an operator might l= imit bandwidth on emergency-only access. But in a world where IP over DNS = is/was a reality, I'd want to be able to do better than that. Does this work better for Section 4? >>> ZBP includes all cases where a subscriber is known to an ASP, but lacks = the necessary authorization to access regular ASP services. Example ZBP ca= ses include empty prepaid accounts, barred accounts, roaming and mobility r= estrictions, or any other conditions set by ASP policy. =09 Local regulation might demand that emergency calls are always authorized= . An ASP can identify emergency sessions by identifying the service URN [5= 0xx] used in call setup. Emergency calls can then be authorized accordingl= y. The ZBP case therefore only affects the ASP. Permitting a call with limited authorization could present an opportunit= y for abuse. The ASP MAY choose to validate session initiation messages fo= r valid destinations, see Section 7. An ASP without a regulatory requirement to authorize emergency calls can= deny emergency call setup. Where an ASP does not authorize an emergency c= all, the caller can fall back to NASP procedures. <<< Section 5 Section 5 duplicates a lot of the recommendations from phone-bcp. In fact,= it's difficult to identify how this draft differs from phone-bcp. It shou= ld only be necessary to call out the points of divergence here (which are f= ew). For instance, the ESRP section could just say "follow [phone-bcp]". = Even the ISP/IAP section could say the same, with a possible reference to t= he NAA section regarding constrained access. What is missing from 5.1.2 is the SIP-based discovery of the ESRP - if the = End Host is sending signaling straight to the ESRP, it will probably have t= o use RFC 3263. Section 6 In spite of considerable improvements over prior iterations, I still think = that Section 6 is too specific in parts and too vague in others. =20 - (Section 6.1) The reasons for NOT doing something do not need to be so ex= haustively enumerated. In particular, I found the last two points (EAP and= NAI) a little baffling and non-sequitur. - Section 6.2 makes some non-specific recommendations about securing layer = 2 communications, but doesn't really elucidate why. One good reason for se= curing layer 2, with strong mutual authentication is that most of the confi= guration (LIS, LoST, SIP) use a DHCP bootstrap, and DHCP has no authenticat= ion framework. Again, for the reasons cited in Section 6.1, anything more = concrete is going to be hard to justify. Oh, and... Expand Acronyms Prior to using them. They are Not Always Intuitive. Cheers, Martin