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Subject: [Ecrit] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC5222 (4174)
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The following errata report has been held for document update 
for RFC5222, "LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5222&eid=4174

--------------------------------------
Status: Held for Document Update
Type: Technical

Reported by: Dan Banks <dbanks@ddti.net>
Date Reported: 2014-11-12
Held by: Alissa Cooper (IESG)

Section: 15 & Apdx A

Original Text
-------------
In section 15, the Exception pattern says (in part):
  locationProfileUnrecognized =
    element locationProfileUnrecognized {
      attribute unsupportedProfiles { xsd:NMTOKENS },
      basicException
    }

The corresponding section in Appendix A says:
       <define name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
         <element name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
           <attribute name="unsupportedProfiles">
             <data type="NMTOKENS"/>
           </attribute>
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>


Corrected Text
--------------
Section 15 should say:
  locationProfileUnrecognized =
    element locationProfileUnrecognized {
      basicException
    }

Appendix A should say:
       <define name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
         <element name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>


Notes
-----
The ‘unsupportedProfiles’ attribute is not referenced anywhere else in the text of the document; no instruction is given describing the use of this attribute.  This, by itself, is problematic.  However, based on the type, it seems reasonable that the intent may have been to list the location profiles which the server is unable to understand.

Consider the condition under which the ‘locationProfileUnrecognized’ error is returned (section 12.1):
    8. If a server receives a request that only contains location
       information using profiles it does not understand, the server
       responds with a <locationProfileError>

If none of the locations include the optional ‘profile’ attribute, the server may not be able to identify any of the profiles and therefore would be incapable of returning a list of profile names.  This is especially problematic considering that the ‘unsupportedProfiles’ attribute is required by the schema.

Even in cases where one or more locations include the profile attribute, the client already knows what profiles were used in the request, so returning a list of these profiles does not provide new information to the client.

At best, use of the ‘unsupportedProfiles’ attribute appears to be redundant; at worst, it is impossible.  Therefore, the suggested course of action is to remove the attribute from the schema.

--------------------------------------
RFC5222 (draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-10)
--------------------------------------
Title               : LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol
Publication Date    : August 2008
Author(s)           : T. Hardie, A. Newton, H. Schulzrinne, H. Tschofenig
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies RAI
Area                : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


From nobody Sun Apr  3 06:10:56 2016
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Subject: [Ecrit] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC5222 (4176)
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The following errata report has been held for document update 
for RFC5222, "LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5222&eid=4176

--------------------------------------
Status: Held for Document Update
Type: Technical

Reported by: Dan Banks <dbanks@ddti.net>
Date Reported: 2014-11-13
Held by: Alissa Cooper (IESG)

Section: 15 & Apdx A

Original Text
-------------
Section 15:  

exceptionContainer =
    (badRequest?
     & internalError?
     & serviceSubstitution?
     & defaultMappingReturned?
     & forbidden?
     & notFound?
     & loop?
     & serviceNotImplemented?
     & serverTimeout?
     & serverError?
     & locationInvalid?
     & locationProfileUnrecognized?),
    extensionPoint,
    source

And:

  serverError = element serverError { basicException }
  locationInvalid = element locationInvalid { basicException }

Appendix A:

           <optional>
             <ref name="serverError"/>
           </optional>
           <optional>
             <ref name="locationInvalid"/>
           </optional>

And:

       <define name="serverError">
         <element name="serverError">
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>

       <define name="locationInvalid">
         <element name="locationInvalid">
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>

Corrected Text
--------------
Section 15:  

exceptionContainer =
    (badRequest?
     & internalError?
     & serviceSubstitution?
     & defaultMappingReturned?
     & forbidden?
     & notFound?
     & loop?
     & serviceNotImplemented?
     & serverTimeout?
     & serverError?
     & SRSInvalid?
     & locationInvalid?
     & locationProfileUnrecognized?),
    extensionPoint,
    source

And:

  serverError = element serverError { basicException }
  SRSInvalid = element SRSInvalid { basicException }
  locationInvalid = element locationInvalid { basicException }

Appendix A:

           <optional>
             <ref name="serverError"/>
           </optional>
           <optional>
             <ref name="SRSInvalid"/>
           </optional>
           <optional>
             <ref name="locationInvalid"/>
           </optional>

And:

       <define name="serverError">
         <element name="serverError">
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>

       <define name="SRSInvalid">
         <element name="SRSInvalid">
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>

       <define name="locationInvalid">
         <element name="locationInvalid">
           <ref name="basicException"/>
         </element>
       </define>

Notes
-----
The SRSInvalid error is defined in section 13.1, but was omitted from the schemas.

--------------------------------------
RFC5222 (draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-10)
--------------------------------------
Title               : LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol
Publication Date    : August 2008
Author(s)           : T. Hardie, A. Newton, H. Schulzrinne, H. Tschofenig
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies RAI
Area                : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


From nobody Sun Apr  3 06:39:34 2016
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Cc: ecrit@ietf.org, hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu, hardie@qualcomm.com, Hannes.Tschofenig@nsn.com, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: [Ecrit] [Errata Verified] RFC5222 (4174)
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FYI, this has been changed to "Status: Verified" per a request from Alissa Cooper.

Thank you.
RFC Editor/ar

On Apr 3, 2016, at 10:05 AM, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

The following errata report has been held for document update 
for RFC5222, "LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5222&eid=4174

--------------------------------------
Status: Held for Document Update
Type: Technical

Reported by: Dan Banks <dbanks@ddti.net>
Date Reported: 2014-11-12
Held by: Alissa Cooper (IESG)

Section: 15 & Apdx A

Original Text
-------------
In section 15, the Exception pattern says (in part):
 locationProfileUnrecognized =
   element locationProfileUnrecognized {
     attribute unsupportedProfiles { xsd:NMTOKENS },
     basicException
   }

The corresponding section in Appendix A says:
      <define name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
        <element name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
          <attribute name="unsupportedProfiles">
            <data type="NMTOKENS"/>
          </attribute>
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>


Corrected Text
--------------
Section 15 should say:
 locationProfileUnrecognized =
   element locationProfileUnrecognized {
     basicException
   }

Appendix A should say:
      <define name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
        <element name="locationProfileUnrecognized">
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>


Notes
-----
The ‘unsupportedProfiles’ attribute is not referenced anywhere else in the text of the document; no instruction is given describing the use of this attribute.  This, by itself, is problematic.  However, based on the type, it seems reasonable that the intent may have been to list the location profiles which the server is unable to understand.

Consider the condition under which the ‘locationProfileUnrecognized’ error is returned (section 12.1):
   8. If a server receives a request that only contains location
      information using profiles it does not understand, the server
      responds with a <locationProfileError>

If none of the locations include the optional ‘profile’ attribute, the server may not be able to identify any of the profiles and therefore would be incapable of returning a list of profile names.  This is especially problematic considering that the ‘unsupportedProfiles’ attribute is required by the schema.

Even in cases where one or more locations include the profile attribute, the client already knows what profiles were used in the request, so returning a list of these profiles does not provide new information to the client.

At best, use of the ‘unsupportedProfiles’ attribute appears to be redundant; at worst, it is impossible.  Therefore, the suggested course of action is to remove the attribute from the schema.

--------------------------------------
RFC5222 (draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-10)
--------------------------------------
Title               : LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol
Publication Date    : August 2008
Author(s)           : T. Hardie, A. Newton, H. Schulzrinne, H. Tschofenig
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies RAI
Area                : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG



From nobody Sun Apr  3 06:40:25 2016
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Cc: ecrit@ietf.org, hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu, hardie@qualcomm.com, Hannes.Tschofenig@nsn.com, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Subject: [Ecrit] [Errata Verified] RFC5222 (4176)
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FYI, this has been changed to "Status: Verified" per a request from Alissa Cooper.

Thank you.
RFC Editor/ar

On Apr 3, 2016, at 10:10 AM, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

The following errata report has been held for document update 
for RFC5222, "LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5222&eid=4176

--------------------------------------
Status: Held for Document Update
Type: Technical

Reported by: Dan Banks <dbanks@ddti.net>
Date Reported: 2014-11-13
Held by: Alissa Cooper (IESG)

Section: 15 & Apdx A

Original Text
-------------
Section 15:  

exceptionContainer =
   (badRequest?
    & internalError?
    & serviceSubstitution?
    & defaultMappingReturned?
    & forbidden?
    & notFound?
    & loop?
    & serviceNotImplemented?
    & serverTimeout?
    & serverError?
    & locationInvalid?
    & locationProfileUnrecognized?),
   extensionPoint,
   source

And:

 serverError = element serverError { basicException }
 locationInvalid = element locationInvalid { basicException }

Appendix A:

          <optional>
            <ref name="serverError"/>
          </optional>
          <optional>
            <ref name="locationInvalid"/>
          </optional>

And:

      <define name="serverError">
        <element name="serverError">
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>

      <define name="locationInvalid">
        <element name="locationInvalid">
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>

Corrected Text
--------------
Section 15:  

exceptionContainer =
   (badRequest?
    & internalError?
    & serviceSubstitution?
    & defaultMappingReturned?
    & forbidden?
    & notFound?
    & loop?
    & serviceNotImplemented?
    & serverTimeout?
    & serverError?
    & SRSInvalid?
    & locationInvalid?
    & locationProfileUnrecognized?),
   extensionPoint,
   source

And:

 serverError = element serverError { basicException }
 SRSInvalid = element SRSInvalid { basicException }
 locationInvalid = element locationInvalid { basicException }

Appendix A:

          <optional>
            <ref name="serverError"/>
          </optional>
          <optional>
            <ref name="SRSInvalid"/>
          </optional>
          <optional>
            <ref name="locationInvalid"/>
          </optional>

And:

      <define name="serverError">
        <element name="serverError">
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>

      <define name="SRSInvalid">
        <element name="SRSInvalid">
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>

      <define name="locationInvalid">
        <element name="locationInvalid">
          <ref name="basicException"/>
        </element>
      </define>

Notes
-----
The SRSInvalid error is defined in section 13.1, but was omitted from the schemas.

--------------------------------------
RFC5222 (draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-10)
--------------------------------------
Title               : LoST: A Location-to-Service Translation Protocol
Publication Date    : August 2008
Author(s)           : T. Hardie, A. Newton, H. Schulzrinne, H. Tschofenig
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies RAI
Area                : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG



From nobody Tue Apr  5 14:07:20 2016
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies of the IETF.

        Title           : Additional Data Related to an Emergency Call
        Authors         : Randall Gellens
                          Brian Rosen
                          Hannes Tschofenig
                          Roger Marshall
                          James Winterbottom
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
	Pages           : 113
	Date            : 2016-04-05

Abstract:
   When an emergency call is sent to a Public Safety Answering Point
   (PSAP), the originating device, the access network provider to which
   the device is connected, and all service providers in the path of the
   call have information about the call, the caller or the location
   which is helpful for the PSAP to have in handling the emergency.
   This document describes data structures and mechanisms to convey such
   data to the PSAP.  The intent is that every emergency call carry as
   much as possible of the information described here using the
   mechanisms described here.

   The mechanisms permit the data to be conveyed by reference (as an
   external resource) or by value (within the body of a SIP message or a
   location object).  This follows the tradition of prior emergency
   services standardization work where data can be conveyed by value
   within the call signaling (i.e., in the body of the SIP message) or
   by reference.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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To: Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Dan Banks <DBanks@ddti.net>, James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>, Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has 
been uploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs 
and avoids any substantial changes.

We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this 
would cause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is 
again in Appendix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the 
xCard schema since these are not used in the draft.

--Randy


At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:

>  So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>
>  Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>
>  (1) Revert namespace to original name?
>  (2) Revert schema to informative?
>  (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?
>
>
>  At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>
>>   Hi Dan,
>>
>>   the situation looks a bit tricky.
>>
>>   It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since it
>>   changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>>   registering the new schema.
>>
>>   In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>>   schema again (without changing the namespace).
>>
>>   I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of the
>>   XML schema actually is.
>>
>>   I see a couple of different usages:
>>
>>   a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other
>>   than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>>
>>   b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instance
>>   documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be needed.
>>
>>   c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>>   reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>>   (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>>
>>   I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's
>>   why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>>   broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers"
>>   is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>>   actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found problems).
>>
>>   However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to
>>   improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>>   area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not only
>>   about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related
>>   to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>>   other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>>
>>   Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:
>>   What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from the
>>   original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>>
>>   Ciao
>>   Hannes
>>
>>
>>   On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>   I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>>>
>>>   First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>>>   excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>>>   an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>>>
>>>   Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>>>   understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>>>   RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>>>   light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>>>   opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>>>   implementation should take this errata into account.
>>>
>>>   Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>>>   not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>>>   considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>>>   normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>>>   an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>>>   doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>>>
>>>   Dan Banks
>>>
>>>   -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>>>   [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>>>   AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>>>   Newton; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft
>>>   (again)
>>>
>>>   Hi Randy, Hi James,
>>>
>>>   the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>>    > reflect these changes.
>>>
>>>   Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>>>
>>> 
>>> https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
>>>
>>>    Ciao Hannes
>>>
>>>   On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>>>   Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>>>>
>>>>   Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>>>>
>>>>   Brian, do you concur?
>>>>
>>>>   Thanks everyone.
>>>>
>>>>   At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>>>>>   enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>>>>>   registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>>>>>   namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>>>>>   register the namespace and schema with IANA
>>>>>
>>>>>   Cheers James
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>   On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>   <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>>>>>>>   unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>>>>>>>   because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>>>>>>>   error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Cheers James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>>   <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>>>>>>>>>   documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>>>>>>>>>   to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>>>>>>>>>   informative schema in the additional data document to
>>>>>>>>>   take into account the verified errata (there are
>>>>>>>>>   several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>>>>>>>>>   addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>>>>>>>>>   draft to formally make  that addition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>>>>>>>>   the namespace.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>>>>>>>>   suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>>>>>>>>   selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>>>>>>>>   its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>>>>>>   I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>>>>>>   ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>>>>>>   Gates, 1981
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
>>   Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>>   Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"
>>
>>   Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) (0331F6EF)
>
>
>  --
>  Randall Gellens
>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>  Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman


From nobody Tue Apr  5 14:32:55 2016
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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Thanks Randy.

We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If =
anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft =
(acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the =
schema is non-normative), please send them to the list before then.

Thanks,
Alissa

> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens =
<rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has =
been uploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs =
and avoids any substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this =
would cause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is =
again in Appendix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard =
schema since these are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>>=20
>> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) =
or
>>=20
>> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
>> (2) Revert schema to informative?
>> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA =
tokens?
>>=20
>>=20
>> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>=20
>>>  Hi Dan,
>>>=20
>>>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>>>=20
>>>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing =
since it
>>>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>>>  registering the new schema.
>>>=20
>>>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>>>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>>>=20
>>>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value =
of the
>>>  XML schema actually is.
>>>=20
>>>  I see a couple of different usages:
>>>=20
>>>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything =
other
>>>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>>>=20
>>>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate =
instance
>>>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be =
needed.
>>>=20
>>>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>>>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the =
text
>>>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>>>=20
>>>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and =
that's
>>>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are =
actually
>>>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most =
developers"
>>>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, =
who
>>>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found =
problems).
>>>=20
>>>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not =
going to
>>>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and =
the
>>>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not =
only
>>>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly =
related
>>>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are =
many
>>>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>>>=20
>>>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, =
namely:
>>>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from =
the
>>>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>>>=20
>>>  Ciao
>>>  Hannes
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>>>>=20
>>>>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>>>>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big =
of
>>>>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>>>>=20
>>>>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I =
don't
>>>>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that =
the
>>>>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me =
in
>>>>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>>>>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC =
6351
>>>>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards =
will
>>>>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one =
that
>>>>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>>>>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema =
with
>>>>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  =
This
>>>>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Dan Banks
>>>>=20
>>>>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 =
9:09
>>>>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>>>>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft
>>>>  (again)
>>>>=20
>>>>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>>>>=20
>>>>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update =
to
>>>   > reflect these changes.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>>>>=20
>>>> =
https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-=
data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
>>>>=20
>>>>   Ciao Hannes
>>>>=20
>>>>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>>>>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Brian, do you concur?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Thanks everyone.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>>>>>>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>>>>>>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>>>>>>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>>>>>>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  Cheers James
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>>>>>>>>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>>>>>>>>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>>>>>>>>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>  Cheers James
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>>>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>>>>>>>>>>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>>>>>>>>>>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>>>>>>>>>>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>>>>>>>>>>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>>>>>>>>>>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>>>>>>>>>>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>>>>>>>>>>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>>>>>>>>>  the namespace.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>>>>>>>>>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>>>>>>>>>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>>>>>>>>>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>>>>>>>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>>>>>>>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>>>>>>>  Gates, 1981
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>>>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>>>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>>>=20
>>>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) =
(0331F6EF)
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>

--Apple-Mail=_FF8C27D6-FB75-49EC-B2C5-67717DAE1F5D
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thanks Randy.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We will unstick this in the RFC =
Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If anyone has strong objections to =
the approach in this draft (acknowledging that there is no perfect =
compromise here and that the schema is non-normative), please send them =
to the list before then.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Alissa</div><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Thanks very much to everyone who helped with =
this. &nbsp;Version -38 has been uploaded to the drafts repository. =
&nbsp;It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids any substantial =
changes.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">We decided not to change =
the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would cause further problems =
(sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Appendix A. &nbsp;We =
did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since these are =
not used in the draft.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">--Randy</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">So, I think we have three =
remaining open questions, which are:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Should =
we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">(1) Revert namespace to original name?<br =
class=3D"">(2) Revert schema to informative?<br class=3D"">(3) Do we add =
to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, =
Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Dan,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the situation looks a bit tricky.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the =
right thing since it<br class=3D"">&nbsp;changes an XML schema without =
defining a new namespace and without<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registering the =
new schema.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;In some sense, we could =
be equally "relaxed" and just change their<br class=3D"">&nbsp;schema =
again (without changing the namespace).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what =
the value of the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;XML schema actually is.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I see a couple of different usages:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;a) If someone uses the XML schema to =
generate code then anything other<br class=3D"">&nbsp;than defining our =
own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to =
validate instance<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents than defining our own, =
corrected XML schema will also be needed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a =
different way of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;reading the document content then =
changing the schema within the text<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(as we had done =
up to version -37) is fine.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I =
personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications =
are actually<br class=3D"">&nbsp;broken (not only in the IETF but also =
elsewhere). The "most developers"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;is important here =
since we have found developers, such as Philip, who<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;actually produce code based on the schema (which is why =
he found problems).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;However, by =
making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;improve the situation. It is also the question what the =
IESG and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;area directors think about this =
situation. In some sense it is not only<br class=3D"">&nbsp;about the =
use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. =
There are many<br class=3D"">&nbsp;other places where we messed things =
up, such as with ABNF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ultimately, it =
fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is =
different from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;original VCard schema in terms of =
re-use with existing software.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ciao<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm not entirely =
sure this is the right way to go.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;First, if the values can only come from the registry, =
that still<br class=3D"">&nbsp;excludes the x-name values (which seems =
to me to be nearly as big of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;an omission as leaving =
out the iana-token values).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Second, =
is changing the namespace really necessary? &nbsp;Perhaps I don't<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;understand the errata process correctly, but James' =
argument that the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;RFC 6351 schema error requires it =
does not seem persuasive to me in<br class=3D"">&nbsp;light of the =
existing errata already being verified status (as<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;opposed to held for update). &nbsp;That suggests to me =
that any RFC 6351<br class=3D"">&nbsp;implementation should take this =
errata into account.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Changing the =
namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation =
(even one that<br class=3D"">&nbsp;considers the errata), and the =
Appendix A schema would have to be<br class=3D"">&nbsp;normative. =
&nbsp;This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG =
schema. &nbsp;This<br class=3D"">&nbsp;doesn't seem like a good idea to =
me.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Dan Banks<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;-----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;[<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" =
class=3D"">mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>] Sent: Sunday, March 20, =
2016 9:09<br class=3D"">&nbsp;AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom =
Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Newton; <a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a> Subject: =
Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(again)<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Randy, Hi James,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working =
on an update to<br class=3D""></blockquote>&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; reflect =
these changes.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Here is the link to the work in progress document:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/add=
itional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/=
additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao Hannes<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks for listing =
the steps, James.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes, does this =
sound like the plan to you?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Brian, do =
you concur?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks everyone.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James =
Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) =
Remove the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;enumeration for the schema so all values =
now come from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registry only 2) Add main number =
to the registry 3) Change the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;namespace 4) Update =
all examples to use the new namespace 5)<br class=3D"">&nbsp;register =
the namespace and schema with IANA<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers James<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&nbsp;On 19 Mar 2016, at =
8:51 am, Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm OK with changing the namespace if we =
need to.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, =
James Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&nbsp;I think that the general approach is =
okay, I remain<br class=3D"">&nbsp;unconvinced that we don't need a new =
namespace however,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;because the schema in RFC 6351 is =
normative and it has an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;error and our solution =
requires the error be corrected.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers=
 James<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&nbsp;On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall =
Gellens<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I am not very familiar with the process around =
updating<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents, &nbsp;but to me this suggests: - =
we should not need<br class=3D"">&nbsp;to do an update to RFC 6351, - we =
should fix the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;informative schema in the additional =
data document to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;take into account the verified =
errata (there are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;several), - we should seek review =
of "main-number" as an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;addition to the =
&nbsp;registry, and update the additional data<br class=3D"">&nbsp;draft =
to formally make &nbsp;that addition.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;This sounds reasonable to me. &nbsp;We also won't need =
to change<br class=3D"">&nbsp;the namespace.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;suspect; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;selected tag: --------------- &nbsp;A list is only as =
strong as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;its weakest link. &nbsp;--Donald Knuth<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect;<br class=3D"">&nbsp;I speak for =
myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;--------------- &nbsp;640K ought to be enough for =
anybody. &nbsp;--Bill<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Gates, 1981<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; =
name=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Description: OpenPGP =
digital signature<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Disposition: attachment; =
filename=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Attachment =
converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc ( &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;) (0331F6EF)<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D"">Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only<br class=3D"">-------------- =
Randomly selected tag: ---------------<br class=3D"">Military justice is =
to justice what military music is to music.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" =
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class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
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start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Randall Gellens</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for =
myself only</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: =
---------------</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Not knowing is much more interesting than =
believing an answer which</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
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none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">might be wrong. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Richard Feynman</span><br =
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From nobody Tue Apr  5 14:39:56 2016
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion List <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
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Just having a quick look at this.

Many regulatory authorities will not allow this type of call as an emergenc=
y call. In principle because they do want their PSAPs to be able to indulge=
 in session based communication.

In the UK while you might have burglar alarms that go direct to the police =
station, these are not classed as emergency calls, or some other answer poi=
nt.

I would suggest that the introduction section should contain a warning to t=
his effect, i.e. that such mechanisms should only be used as an emergency c=
all where the regulatory authority permits such usage.

Regards

Keith


From nobody Tue Apr  5 14:43:03 2016
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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:15:29 +0200
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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I am not in favour of this decision.
Multiple different schemas with same namespace is bad practice.

Cheers
James

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Apr 2016, at 11:12 pm, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wr=
ote:
>=20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has been u=
ploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids a=
ny substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would c=
ause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Appen=
dix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since thes=
e are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>>=20
>> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>>=20
>> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
>> (2) Revert schema to informative?
>> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens=
?
>>=20
>>=20
>> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>=20
>>>  Hi Dan,
>>>=20
>>>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>>>=20
>>>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since i=
t
>>>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>>>  registering the new schema.
>>>=20
>>>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>>>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>>>=20
>>>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of th=
e
>>>  XML schema actually is.
>>>=20
>>>  I see a couple of different usages:
>>>=20
>>>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other
>>>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>>>=20
>>>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instanc=
e
>>>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be need=
ed.
>>>=20
>>>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>>>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>>>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>>>=20
>>>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's=

>>>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>>>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers"=

>>>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>>>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found proble=
ms).
>>>=20
>>>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to=

>>>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>>>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not only=

>>>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly relate=
d
>>>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>>>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>>>=20
>>>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:
>>>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from the=

>>>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>>>=20
>>>  Ciao
>>>  Hannes
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>>>>=20
>>>>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>>>>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>>>>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>>>>=20
>>>>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>>>>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>>>>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>>>>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>>>>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>>>>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>>>>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>>>>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>>>>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>>>>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>>>>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Dan Banks
>>>>=20
>>>>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>>>>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>>>>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft
>>>>  (again)
>>>>=20
>>>>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>>>>=20
>>>>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>>>   > reflect these changes.
>>>>=20
>>>>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>>>>=20
>>>> https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/addition=
al-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
>>>>=20
>>>>   Ciao Hannes
>>>>=20
>>>>>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>>>>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Brian, do you concur?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Thanks everyone.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>>>>>>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>>>>>>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>>>>>>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>>>>>>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  Cheers James
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>>>>>>>>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>>>>>>>>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>>>>>>>>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>  Cheers James
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>>>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>>>>>>>>>>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>>>>>>>>>>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>>>>>>>>>>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>>>>>>>>>>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>>>>>>>>>>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>>>>>>>>>>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>>>>>>>>>>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>>>>>>>>>  the namespace.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>>>>>>>>>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>>>>>>>>>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>>>>>>>>>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>>>>>>>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>>>>>>>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>>>>>>>  Gates, 1981
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>>>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>>>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>>>=20
>>>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) (0331F6EF)
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman


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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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From nobody Tue Apr  5 15:09:24 2016
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To: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Hi James,

I know you are not happy about this.  Unfortunately, there was no 
ideal answer, so we went with what seems the least bad approach.

--Randy

At 11:15 PM +0200 4/5/16, James Winterbottom wrote:

>  I am not in favour of this decision.
>  Multiple different schemas with same namespace is bad practice.
>
>  Cheers
>  James
>
>  Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On 5 Apr 2016, at 11:12 pm, Randall Gellens 
>> <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 
>> has been uploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all 
>> identifies bugs and avoids any substantial changes.
>>
>>  We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that 
>> this would cause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard 
>> schema is again in Appendix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" 
>> tokens to the xCard schema since these are not used in the draft.
>>
>>  --Randy
>>
>>
>>  At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>
>>>  So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>>>
>>>  Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>>>
>>>  (1) Revert namespace to original name?
>>>  (2) Revert schema to informative?
>>>  (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?
>>>
>>>
>>>  At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Hi Dan,
>>>>
>>>>   the situation looks a bit tricky.
>>>>
>>>>   It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since it
>>>>   changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>>>>   registering the new schema.
>>>>
>>>>   In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>>>>   schema again (without changing the namespace).
>>>>
>>>>   I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of the
>>>>   XML schema actually is.
>>>>
>>>>   I see a couple of different usages:
>>>>
>>>>   a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other
>>>>   than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>>>>
>>>>   b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instance
>>>>   documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also 
>>>> be needed.
>>>>
>>>>   c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>>>>   reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>>>>   (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>>>>
>>>>   I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's
>>>>   why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>>>>   broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers"
>>>>   is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>>>>   actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he 
>>>> found problems).
>>>>
>>>>   However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to
>>>>   improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>>>>   area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not only
>>>>   about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related
>>>>   to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>>>>   other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>>>>
>>>>   Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:
>>>>   What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from the
>>>>   original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>>>>
>>>>   Ciao
>>>>   Hannes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>   On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>>   I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>   First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>>>>>   excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>>>>>   an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>   >>>>
>>>>>   Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>   >>>>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>>>>>   RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>>>>>   light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>>>>>   opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>>>>>   implementation should take this errata into account.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>>>>>   not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>>>>>   considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>>>>>   normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>>>>>   an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>>>>>   doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Dan Banks
>>>>>
>>>>>   -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>>>>>   [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>>>>>   AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>>>>>   Newton; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft
>>>>>   (again)
>>>>>
>>>>>   Hi Randy, Hi James,
>>>>>
>>>>>   the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>>>>    > reflect these changes.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
>>>>>
>>>>>    Ciao Hannes
>>>>>
>>>>>>   On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>>>>>   Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Brian, do you concur?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Thanks everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>>>>>>>   enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>>>>>>>   registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>>>>>>>   namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>>>>>>>   register the namespace and schema with IANA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Cheers James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>>   <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>>>>>>>>>   unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>>>>>>>>>   because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>>>>>>>>>   error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   Cheers James
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>>>>>>>>>>   <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>>>>>>>>>>>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>>>>>>>>>>>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>>>>>>>>>>>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>>>>>>>>>>>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>>>>>>>>>>>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>>>>>>>>>>>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>>>>>>>>>>>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>>>>>>>>>>   the namespace.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>>>>>>>>>>   suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>>>>>>>>>>   selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>>>>>>>>>>   its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>>>>>>>>   I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>>>>>>>>   ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>>>>>>>>   Gates, 1981
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
>   >>>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>   >>>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"
>>>>
>>>>   Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) (0331F6EF)
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Randall Gellens
>>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>>  Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  Ecrit mailing list
>>>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Randall Gellens
>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>  Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
>>  might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are
headed.


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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 03:13:23 +0200
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ecrit/bCZ91eKislh0Gi9Ud7SmrCJ8CA0>
Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish to intr=
oduce a new IANA token into the registry for use in a way that schema will b=
reak validation for. So the registration is fine, using it is another questi=
on.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia=
.com> wrote:
>=20
> I did a quick skim and noted two issues.
> =20
> 1)    I see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative reference. This=
 is a set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and we do not need to w=
rite normative requirements on IANA. This should be moved to the informative=
 references. In any case, the actions of IANA are outside the scope of the d=
ocument as defined in section 3.
> 2)    Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from priva=
cy considerations. At least from a European viewpoint this is not true. The p=
rivacy legislation in Europe makes no specific mention of emergency calls, a=
nd therefore it is up to those organizations making use of the data as to wh=
ether any of the other exemptions might apply instead. I would suggest that =E2=
=80=9CThe data structures defined here are not appropriate to be conveyed in=
 non-emergency calls because they carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D=
 is deleted from section 3, and possibly replaced with some statement about t=
aking account of any local regulatory framework on privacy.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Alissa Cooper=

> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:33
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Thanks Randy.
> =20
> We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If any=
one has strong objections to the approach in this draft (acknowledging that t=
here is no perfect compromise here and that the schema is non-normative), pl=
ease send them to the list before then.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Alissa
> =20
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wr=
ote:
> =20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has been u=
ploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids a=
ny substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would c=
ause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Appen=
dix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since thes=
e are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>=20
> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>=20
> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
> (2) Revert schema to informative?
> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?=

>=20
>=20
> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>=20
>=20
>  Hi Dan,
>=20
>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>=20
>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since it
>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>  registering the new schema.
>=20
>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>=20
>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of the
>  XML schema actually is.
>=20
>  I see a couple of different usages:
>=20
>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other
>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>=20
>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instance
>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be needed=
.
>=20
>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>=20
>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's
>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers"
>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found problems=
).
>=20
>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to
>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not only
>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related
>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>=20
>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:
>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from the
>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>=20
>  Ciao
>  Hannes
>=20
>=20
>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>=20
>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>=20
>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>=20
>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>=20
>  Dan Banks
>=20
>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft
>  (again)
>=20
>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>=20
>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>   > reflect these changes.
>=20
>=20
>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>=20
> https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-=
data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
>=20
>   Ciao Hannes
>=20
>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>=20
>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>=20
>  Brian, do you concur?
>=20
>  Thanks everyone.
>=20
>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>=20
>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>=20
>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>  the namespace.
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>=20
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>  Gates, 1981
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>=20
>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) (0331F6EF)
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. T=
he schema is in error, we wish to introduce a new IANA token into the regist=
ry for use in a way that schema will break validation for. So the registrati=
on is fine, using it is another question.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><d=
iv><br>On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I did a quick skim and note=
d two issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"=
>1)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=

</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I see no reason why RFC 5226 n=
eeds to be a normative reference. This is a set of instructions that IANA ne=
eds to follow, and we do not need to write normative requirements
 on IANA. This should be moved to the informative references. In any case, t=
he actions of IANA are outside the scope of the document as defined in secti=
on 3.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<h1 style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"=
><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">2)<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext;font-weight:normal">Section 3 s=
omehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from privacy considerations. A=
t least from a European viewpoint this is not true. The
 privacy legislation in Europe makes no specific mention of emergency calls,=
 and therefore it is up to those organizations making use of the data as to w=
hether any of the other exemptions might apply instead. I would suggest that=
 =E2=80=9CThe data structures defined
 here are not appropriate to be conveyed in non-emergency calls because they=
 carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D is deleted from section 3, and p=
ossibly replaced with some statement about taking account of any local regul=
atory framework on privacy.<o:p></o:p></span></h1>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Keith<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Ecrit [<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>EXT Alissa Cooper<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 05 April 2016 22:33<br>
<b>To:</b> Randall Gellens<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Rosen; <a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org">ecrit@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Randy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queu=
e on April 15. If anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft=
 (acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the schema=
 is non-normative), please send them to
 the list before then.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alissa<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks very much to everyone who helped w=
ith this. &nbsp;Version -38 has been uploaded to the drafts repository. &nbs=
p;It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids any substantial changes.<br>
<br>
We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would ca=
use further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Append=
ix A. &nbsp;We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since t=
hese are not used in the draft.<br>
<br>
--Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:<br>
<br style=3D"orphans: auto;text-align:start;widows: auto;-webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So, I think we have three remaining open=
 questions, which are:<br>
<br>
Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or<br>
<br>
(1) Revert namespace to original name?<br>
(2) Revert schema to informative?<br>
(3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;Hi Dan,<br>
<br>
&nbsp;the situation looks a bit tricky.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since i=
t<br>
&nbsp;changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without<br>=

&nbsp;registering the new schema.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their<br>=

&nbsp;schema again (without changing the namespace).<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of t=
he<br>
&nbsp;XML schema actually is.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I see a couple of different usages:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other=
<br>
&nbsp;than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems<br>
<br>
&nbsp;b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instan=
ce<br>
&nbsp;documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be nee=
ded.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of<br>
&nbsp;reading the document content then changing the schema within the text<=
br>
&nbsp;(as we had done up to version -37) is fine.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that'=
s<br>
&nbsp;why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually<b=
r>
&nbsp;broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers=
"<br>
&nbsp;is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who<=
br>
&nbsp;actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found probl=
ems).<br>
<br>
&nbsp;However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going t=
o<br>
&nbsp;improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the<b=
r>
&nbsp;area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not onl=
y<br>
&nbsp;about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly relat=
ed<br>
&nbsp;to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many<=
br>
&nbsp;other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:=
<br>
&nbsp;What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from th=
e<br>
&nbsp;original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Ciao<br>
&nbsp;Hannes<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;I'm not entirely sure this is the r=
ight way to go.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still<br>
&nbsp;excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of<b=
r>
&nbsp;an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Second, is changing the namespace really necessary? &nbsp;Perhaps I do=
n't<br>
&nbsp;understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the<=
br>
&nbsp;RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in<br=
>
&nbsp;light of the existing errata already being verified status (as<br>
&nbsp;opposed to held for update). &nbsp;That suggests to me that any RFC 63=
51<br>
&nbsp;implementation should take this errata into account.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will<=
br>
&nbsp;not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that<br=
>
&nbsp;considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be<br>
&nbsp;normative. &nbsp;This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema wi=
th<br>
&nbsp;an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema. &nbsp;T=
his<br>
&nbsp;doesn't seem like a good idea to me.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Dan Banks<br>
<br>
&nbsp;-----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig<br>
&nbsp;[<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net">mailto:hannes.tschofenig=
@gmx.net</a>] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09<br>
&nbsp;AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew<br>
&nbsp;Newton; <a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org">ecrit@ietf.org</a> Subject: R=
e: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft<br>
&nbsp;(again)<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Hi Randy, Hi James,<br>
<br>
&nbsp;the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; reflect these changes.<=
br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&nbsp;Here is the link to the work in progress document:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/ad=
ditional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt">https://github.com/ha=
nnestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-a=
dditional-data-38.txt</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao Hannes<br>
<br>
&nbsp;On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;Thanks for listing the steps, Jame=
s.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Brian, do you concur?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Thanks everyone.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;So, just make sure I am clear on w=
hat the plan is: 1) Remove the<br>
&nbsp;enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the<br>
&nbsp;registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the<br>
&nbsp;namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)<br>
&nbsp;register the namespace and schema with IANA<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Cheers James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randal=
l Gellens<br>
&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org">rg+ietf@randy.pensive=
.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;I think that the general approach i=
s okay, I remain<br>
&nbsp;unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,<br>
&nbsp;because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an<br>
&nbsp;error and our solution requires the error be corrected.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Cheers James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randal=
l Gellens<br>
&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org">rg+ietf@randy.pensive=
.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;I am not very familiar with the pr=
ocess around updating<br>
&nbsp;documents, &nbsp;but to me this suggests: - we should not need<br>
&nbsp;to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the<br>
&nbsp;informative schema in the additional data document to<br>
&nbsp;take into account the verified errata (there are<br>
&nbsp;several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an<br>
&nbsp;addition to the &nbsp;registry, and update the additional data<br>
&nbsp;draft to formally make &nbsp;that addition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&nbsp;This sounds reasonable to me. &nbsp;We also won't need to change<br>
&nbsp;the namespace.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are<=
br>
&nbsp;suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Rand=
omly<br>
&nbsp;selected tag: --------------- &nbsp;A list is only as strong as<br>
&nbsp;its weakest link. &nbsp;--Donald Knuth<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are s=
uspect;<br>
&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:<br>
&nbsp;--------------- &nbsp;640K ought to be enough for anybody. &nbsp;--Bil=
l<br>
&nbsp;Gates, 1981<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:37:59 +1000
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To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
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Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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So just to make sure I get this right.
You believe that text in the RFC can update the schema, without having =
to republish the schema?


> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) =
<keith.drage@nokia.com> wrote:
>=20
> I do not believe you are correct.
> =20
> IANA works as a subcontractor for IETF in maintaining a set of =
registries. Putting something into the registry does not change anything =
in the protocol, it merely ensures that no one else tries to use that =
value for something else, and provides an informative pointer as to =
which documents the real allocation may be found in. We do not need =
normative text to get IANA to do something, in the same way as we =
don=E2=80=99t need a normative statement to ensure the RFC editor edits =
the document in accordance with the IETF drafting rules.
> =20
> Ensuring that the schema does not break validation is the =
responsibility of the text in the RFC, not the registry.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com]=20=

> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:13
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish =
to introduce a new IANA token into the registry for use in a way that =
schema will break validation for. So the registration is fine, using it =
is another question.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I did a quick skim and noted two issues.
> =20
> 1)      I see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative =
reference. This is a set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and =
we do not need to write normative requirements on IANA. This should be =
moved to the informative references. In any case, the actions of IANA =
are outside the scope of the document as defined in section 3.
> 2)   Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from =
privacy considerations. At least from a European viewpoint this is not =
true. The privacy legislation in Europe makes no specific mention of =
emergency calls, and therefore it is up to those organizations making =
use of the data as to whether any of the other exemptions might apply =
instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe data structures defined here =
are not appropriate to be conveyed in non-emergency calls because they =
carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D is deleted from section 3, =
and possibly replaced with some statement about taking account of any =
local regulatory framework on privacy.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of EXT Alissa Cooper
> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:33
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Thanks Randy.
> =20
> We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If =
anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft =
(acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the =
schema is non-normative), please send them to the list before then.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Alissa
> =20
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org =
<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
> =20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has =
been uploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs =
and avoids any substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this =
would cause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is =
again in Appendix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard =
schema since these are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>=20
> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>=20
> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
> (2) Revert schema to informative?
> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA =
tokens?
>=20
>=20
> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Hi Dan,
>=20
>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>=20
>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since =
it
>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>  registering the new schema.
>=20
>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>=20
>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of =
the
>  XML schema actually is.
>=20
>  I see a couple of different usages:
>=20
>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything =
other
>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>=20
>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate =
instance
>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be =
needed.
>=20
>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>=20
>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and =
that's
>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most =
developers"
>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found =
problems).
>=20
>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going =
to
>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not =
only
>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly =
related
>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>=20
>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, =
namely:
>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from =
the
>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>=20
>  Ciao
>  Hannes
>=20
>=20
>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>=20
>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>=20
>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>=20
>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>=20
>  Dan Banks
>=20
>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>] =
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] =
Additional Data Draft
>  (again)
>=20
>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>=20
>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>   > reflect these changes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>=20
> =
https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-=
data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt =
<https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional=
-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt>
>=20
>   Ciao Hannes
>=20
>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>=20
>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>=20
>  Brian, do you concur?
>=20
>  Thanks everyone.
>=20
>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>=20
>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>=20
>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>=20
>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>=20
>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>  the namespace.
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>=20
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>  Gates, 1981
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>=20
>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) =
(0331F6EF)
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">So just to make sure I get this right.<div class=3D"">You =
believe that text in the RFC can update the schema, without having to =
republish the schema?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I do not believe you are correct.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">IANA works as a =
subcontractor for IETF in maintaining a set of registries. Putting =
something into the registry does not change anything in the protocol, it =
merely ensures that no one else tries to use that value for something =
else, and provides an informative pointer as to which documents the real =
allocation may be found in. We do not need normative text to get IANA to =
do something, in the same way as we don=E2=80=99t need a normative =
statement to ensure the RFC editor edits the document in accordance with =
the IETF drafting rules.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ensuring that the schema does not break =
validation is the responsibility of the text in the RFC, not the =
registry.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Keith<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT James Winterbottom [<a =
href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 02:13<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen; <a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Point 1 is not a =
simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish to introduce a new =
IANA token into the registry for use in a way that schema will break =
validation for. So the registration is fine, using it is another =
question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith =
(Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I did a quick skim and =
noted two issues.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: =
-18pt;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">1)<span style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: =
normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative reference. This is a =
set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and we do not need to =
write normative requirements on IANA. This should be moved to the =
informative references. In any case, the actions of IANA are outside the =
scope of the document as defined in section 3.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><h1 style=3D"margin: 24pt 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; =
page-break-after: avoid; font-size: 14pt; font-family: Cambria, serif; =
color: rgb(54, 95, 145); text-indent: -18pt;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">2)<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: =
'Times New Roman';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext; =
font-weight: normal;" class=3D"">Section 3 somehow implies that =
emergency calls are exempt from privacy considerations. At least from a =
European viewpoint this is not true. The privacy legislation in Europe =
makes no specific mention of emergency calls, and therefore it is up to =
those organizations making use of the data as to whether any of the =
other exemptions might apply instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe =
data structures defined here are not appropriate to be conveyed in =
non-emergency calls because they carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D=
 is deleted from section 3, and possibly replaced with some statement =
about taking account of any local regulatory framework on =
privacy.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></h1><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ecrit [<a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>EXT Alissa =
Cooper<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>05 April 2016 22:33<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian Rosen;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thanks Randy.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">We will unstick this in the RFC =
Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If anyone has strong objections to =
the approach in this draft (acknowledging that there is no perfect =
compromise here and that the schema is non-normative), please send them =
to the list before then.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Alissa<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Apr 5, 2016, at =
6:12 PM, Randall Gellens &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks very much to =
everyone who helped with this. &nbsp;Version -38 has been uploaded to =
the drafts repository. &nbsp;It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids any =
substantial changes.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">We decided not to =
change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would cause further =
problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Appendix A. =
&nbsp;We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since =
these are not used in the draft.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--Randy<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, =
Randall Gellens wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, I think we have three remaining open =
questions, which are:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Should we go with -38 =
as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">(1) Revert namespace to original name?<br class=3D"">(2) =
Revert schema to informative?<br class=3D"">(3) Do we add to the schema =
"x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Dan,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the situation looks a bit tricky.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the =
right thing since it<br class=3D"">&nbsp;changes an XML schema without =
defining a new namespace and without<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registering the =
new schema.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;In some sense, we could =
be equally "relaxed" and just change their<br class=3D"">&nbsp;schema =
again (without changing the namespace).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what =
the value of the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;XML schema actually is.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I see a couple of different usages:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;a) If someone uses the XML schema to =
generate code then anything other<br class=3D"">&nbsp;than defining our =
own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to =
validate instance<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents than defining our own, =
corrected XML schema will also be needed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a =
different way of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;reading the document content then =
changing the schema within the text<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(as we had done =
up to version -37) is fine.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I =
personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications =
are actually<br class=3D"">&nbsp;broken (not only in the IETF but also =
elsewhere). The "most developers"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;is important here =
since we have found developers, such as Philip, who<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;actually produce code based on the schema (which is why =
he found problems).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;However, by =
making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;improve the situation. It is also the question what the =
IESG and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;area directors think about this =
situation. In some sense it is not only<br class=3D"">&nbsp;about the =
use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. =
There are many<br class=3D"">&nbsp;other places where we messed things =
up, such as with ABNF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ultimately, it =
fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is =
different from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;original VCard schema in terms of =
re-use with existing software.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ciao<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;First, if the values can only come from =
the registry, that still<br class=3D"">&nbsp;excludes the x-name values =
(which seems to me to be nearly as big of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;an =
omission as leaving out the iana-token values).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Second, is changing the namespace really necessary? =
&nbsp;Perhaps I don't<br class=3D"">&nbsp;understand the errata process =
correctly, but James' argument that the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;RFC 6351 =
schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;light of the existing errata already being verified =
status (as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;opposed to held for update). &nbsp;That =
suggests to me that any RFC 6351<br class=3D"">&nbsp;implementation =
should take this errata into account.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Changing the namespace also brings new complications: =
the xCards will<br class=3D"">&nbsp;not be interoperable with an RFC =
6351 implementation (even one that<br class=3D"">&nbsp;considers the =
errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;normative. &nbsp;This essentially redefines the entire =
xCard schema with<br class=3D"">&nbsp;an XML schema when the previous =
version was a Relax NG schema. &nbsp;This<br class=3D"">&nbsp;doesn't =
seem like a good idea to me.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Dan =
Banks<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;-----Original Message----- =
From: Hannes Tschofenig<br class=3D"">&nbsp;[<a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</a>] Sent: Sunday, March 20, =
2016 9:09<br class=3D"">&nbsp;AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom =
Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Newton;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subject: Re: [Ecrit] =
Additional Data Draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(again)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Randy, Hi James,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working =
on an update to</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; reflect these =
changes.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Here is the link to the work in progress =
document:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/add=
itional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/=
additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao Hannes<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks for listing the steps, James.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Brian, do you concur?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks everyone.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At =
9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) =
Remove the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;enumeration for the schema so all values =
now come from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registry only 2) Add main number =
to the registry 3) Change the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;namespace 4) Update =
all examples to use the new namespace 5)<br class=3D"">&nbsp;register =
the namespace and schema with IANA<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers James<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James =
Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I think that the general approach is okay, =
I remain<br class=3D"">&nbsp;unconvinced that we don't need a new =
namespace however,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;because the schema in RFC 6351 is =
normative and it has an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;error and our solution =
requires the error be corrected.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers=
 James<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall =
Gellens<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan =
Banks wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I am not very familiar with the process =
around updating<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents, &nbsp;but to me this =
suggests: - we should not need<br class=3D"">&nbsp;to do an update to =
RFC 6351, - we should fix the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;informative schema in =
the additional data document to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;take into account =
the verified errata (there are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;several), - we should =
seek review of "main-number" as an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;addition to the =
&nbsp;registry, and update the additional data<br class=3D"">&nbsp;draft =
to formally make &nbsp;that addition.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;This sounds reasonable to me. &nbsp;We =
also won't need to change<br class=3D"">&nbsp;the namespace.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are =
personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;suspect; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;selected tag: --------------- &nbsp;A list is only as =
strong as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;its weakest link. &nbsp;--Donald =
Knuth</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall =
Gellens Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly =
selected tag:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;--------------- &nbsp;640K ought to be =
enough for anybody. &nbsp;--Bill<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Gates, =
1981</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; =
name=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Description: OpenPGP =
digital signature<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Disposition: attachment; =
filename=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Attachment =
converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc ( &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;) (0331F6EF)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">Opinions are =
personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak =
for myself only<br class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: =
---------------<br class=3D"">Military justice is to justice what =
military music is to music.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Randall =
Gellens<br class=3D"">Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are =
suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only<br =
class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------<br =
class=3D"">Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer =
which<br class=3D"">might be wrong. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Richard Feynman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</a></div></div></bl=
ockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
Thread-Index: AQHRj3/au+LR+z2zYUOLHsbM9DRpV597xN4AgAAlYxCAABg/gIAAIetw///k9ICAACHMQA==
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 01:40:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA6BC@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 11:41:07 +1000
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References: <56E03BA4.5080104@gmx.net> <CAAQiQRdAbWQk5d+_a6D9wk6ocUTcL3iYpSpS5C5haXO18oyvSg@mail.gmail.com> <6B0C4B6C-C597-4A83-8BB1-B9C059CEB392@gmail.com> <CY1PR17MB0362D522FED4FC4102AF3519A78A0@CY1PR17MB0362.namprd17.prod.ou tlook.com> <p06240603d30f5c3a484f@[99.111.97.136]> <A6BAB996-DE33-473F-A91A-283E40206D68@gmail.com> <p06240607d31228c439d0@[99.111.97.136]> <64464174-A94C-4B2F-8C4E-CAA1BCB4E40F@gmail.com> <p06240608d3123d871783@[99.111.97.136]> <56EEA101.6010409@gmx.net> <SN1PR17MB0366B887DA4EF1BAD5789AF3A78F0@SN1PR17MB0366.namprd17.prod.ou tlook.com> <56F04C03.4010105@gmx.net> <p0624060bd316296861fe@[99.111.97.136]> <p0624060dd329da08e9a0@dhcp-93ce.meeting.ietf.org> <AEF2C313-59FE-49F4-BF8B-3DC164A15110@cooperw.in> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA553@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <8622C464-985C-4100-A9B3-E193AB406B0A@gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA67B@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <A26E5D8F-C522-4DCA-876E-5AA3BC980EF2@gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA6BC@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
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Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Yes, and, as specified, it cannot use the new token we are introducing.


> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:40 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) =
<keith.drage@nokia.com> wrote:
>=20
> The schema is in the RFC. That is the normative version.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com]=20=

> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:38
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> So just to make sure I get this right.
> You believe that text in the RFC can update the schema, without having =
to republish the schema?
> =20
> =20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I do not believe you are correct.
> =20
> IANA works as a subcontractor for IETF in maintaining a set of =
registries. Putting something into the registry does not change anything =
in the protocol, it merely ensures that no one else tries to use that =
value for something else, and provides an informative pointer as to =
which documents the real allocation may be found in. We do not need =
normative text to get IANA to do something, in the same way as we =
don=E2=80=99t need a normative statement to ensure the RFC editor edits =
the document in accordance with the IETF drafting rules.
> =20
> Ensuring that the schema does not break validation is the =
responsibility of the text in the RFC, not the registry.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com =
<mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:13
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish =
to introduce a new IANA token into the registry for use in a way that =
schema will break validation for. So the registration is fine, using it =
is another question.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I did a quick skim and noted two issues.
> =20
> 1)      I see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative =
reference. This is a set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and =
we do not need to write normative requirements on IANA. This should be =
moved to the informative references. In any case, the actions of IANA =
are outside the scope of the document as defined in section 3.
> 2)   Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from =
privacy considerations. At least from a European viewpoint this is not =
true. The privacy legislation in Europe makes no specific mention of =
emergency calls, and therefore it is up to those organizations making =
use of the data as to whether any of the other exemptions might apply =
instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe data structures defined here =
are not appropriate to be conveyed in non-emergency calls because they =
carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D is deleted from section 3, =
and possibly replaced with some statement about taking account of any =
local regulatory framework on privacy.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of EXT Alissa Cooper
> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:33
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Thanks Randy.
> =20
> We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If =
anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft =
(acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the =
schema is non-normative), please send them to the list before then.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Alissa
> =20
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org =
<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
> =20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has =
been uploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs =
and avoids any substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this =
would cause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is =
again in Appendix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard =
schema since these are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>=20
> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>=20
> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
> (2) Revert schema to informative?
> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA =
tokens?
>=20
>=20
> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Hi Dan,
>=20
>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>=20
>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since =
it
>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>  registering the new schema.
>=20
>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>=20
>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of =
the
>  XML schema actually is.
>=20
>  I see a couple of different usages:
>=20
>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything =
other
>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>=20
>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate =
instance
>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be =
needed.
>=20
>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>=20
>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and =
that's
>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most =
developers"
>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found =
problems).
>=20
>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going =
to
>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not =
only
>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly =
related
>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>=20
>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, =
namely:
>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from =
the
>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>=20
>  Ciao
>  Hannes
>=20
>=20
>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>=20
>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>=20
>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>=20
>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>=20
>  Dan Banks
>=20
>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>] =
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] =
Additional Data Draft
>  (again)
>=20
>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>=20
>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>   > reflect these changes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>=20
> =
https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-=
data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt =
<https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional=
-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt>
>=20
>   Ciao Hannes
>=20
>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>=20
>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>=20
>  Brian, do you concur?
>=20
>  Thanks everyone.
>=20
>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>=20
>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>=20
>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>=20
>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>=20
>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>  the namespace.
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>=20
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>  Gates, 1981
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>=20
>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) =
(0331F6EF)
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Yes, and, as specified, it cannot use the new token we are =
introducing.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
6 Apr 2016, at 11:40 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The schema is in the RFC. That is the =
normative version.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Keith<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT James Winterbottom [<a =
href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 02:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen; <a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">So just to make sure I get this =
right.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">You believe that text in the RFC can update the =
schema, without having to republish the schema?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 6 =
Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I do not believe you are =
correct.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">IANA works as a subcontractor for IETF in =
maintaining a set of registries. Putting something into the registry =
does not change anything in the protocol, it merely ensures that no one =
else tries to use that value for something else, and provides an =
informative pointer as to which documents the real allocation may be =
found in. We do not need normative text to get IANA to do something, in =
the same way as we don=E2=80=99t need a normative statement to ensure =
the RFC editor edits the document in accordance with the IETF drafting =
rules.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ensuring that the schema does not break =
validation is the responsibility of the text in the RFC, not the =
registry.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">EXT=
 James Winterbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 02:13<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The =
schema is in error, we wish to introduce a new IANA token into the =
registry for use in a way that schema will break validation for. So the =
registration is fine, using it is another question.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On=
 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
did a quick skim and noted two issues.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;" =
class=3D"">1)<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative reference. This is a =
set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and we do not need to =
write normative requirements on IANA. This should be moved to the =
informative references. In any case, the actions of IANA are outside the =
scope of the document as defined in section 3.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><h1 style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; =
margin-left: 36pt; font-size: 24pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -18pt; page-break-after: =
avoid;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Cambria, =
serif; color: rgb(54, 95, 145);" class=3D"">2)</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(54, 95, 145); font-weight: normal;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-weight: =
normal;" class=3D"">Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are =
exempt from privacy considerations. At least from a European viewpoint =
this is not true. The privacy legislation in Europe makes no specific =
mention of emergency calls, and therefore it is up to those =
organizations making use of the data as to whether any of the other =
exemptions might apply instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe data =
structures defined here are not appropriate to be conveyed in =
non-emergency calls because they carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D=
 is deleted from section 3, and possibly replaced with some statement =
about taking account of any local regulatory framework on =
privacy.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Cambria, =
serif; color: rgb(54, 95, 145);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></h1><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit [<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>EXT Alissa =
Cooper<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>05 April 2016 22:33<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian Rosen;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thanks Randy.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">We will unstick this in the RFC =
Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If anyone has strong objections to =
the approach in this draft (acknowledging that there is no perfect =
compromise here and that the schema is non-normative), please send them =
to the list before then.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Alissa<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this. =
&nbsp;Version -38 has been uploaded to the drafts repository. &nbsp;It =
fixes all identifies bugs and avoids any substantial changes.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">We decided not to change the namespace, per =
Dan's warning that this would cause further problems (sorry, James), and =
the xCard schema is again in Appendix A. &nbsp;We did not add "x-" and =
"vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since these are not used in the =
draft.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--Randy<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, I think we have =
three remaining open questions, which are:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema =
normative) or<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(1) Revert namespace to =
original name?<br class=3D"">(2) Revert schema to informative?<br =
class=3D"">(3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as =
IANA tokens?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 8:31 PM =
+0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Dan,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the situation looks a bit tricky.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the =
right thing since it<br class=3D"">&nbsp;changes an XML schema without =
defining a new namespace and without<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registering the =
new schema.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;In some sense, we could =
be equally "relaxed" and just change their<br class=3D"">&nbsp;schema =
again (without changing the namespace).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what =
the value of the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;XML schema actually is.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I see a couple of different usages:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;a) If someone uses the XML schema to =
generate code then anything other<br class=3D"">&nbsp;than defining our =
own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to =
validate instance<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents than defining our own, =
corrected XML schema will also be needed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a =
different way of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;reading the document content then =
changing the schema within the text<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(as we had done =
up to version -37) is fine.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I =
personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications =
are actually<br class=3D"">&nbsp;broken (not only in the IETF but also =
elsewhere). The "most developers"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;is important here =
since we have found developers, such as Philip, who<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;actually produce code based on the schema (which is why =
he found problems).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;However, by =
making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;improve the situation. It is also the question what the =
IESG and the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;area directors think about this =
situation. In some sense it is not only<br class=3D"">&nbsp;about the =
use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. =
There are many<br class=3D"">&nbsp;other places where we messed things =
up, such as with ABNF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ultimately, it =
fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is =
different from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;original VCard schema in terms of =
re-use with existing software.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ciao<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm not entirely sure this is the right =
way to go.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;First, if the values can =
only come from the registry, that still<br class=3D"">&nbsp;excludes the =
x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Second, is changing the namespace really =
necessary? &nbsp;Perhaps I don't<br class=3D"">&nbsp;understand the =
errata process correctly, but James' argument that the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem =
persuasive to me in<br class=3D"">&nbsp;light of the existing errata =
already being verified status (as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;opposed to held =
for update). &nbsp;That suggests to me that any RFC 6351<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;implementation should take this errata into account.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Changing the namespace also brings new =
complications: the xCards will<br class=3D"">&nbsp;not be interoperable =
with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would =
have to be<br class=3D"">&nbsp;normative. &nbsp;This essentially =
redefines the entire xCard schema with<br class=3D"">&nbsp;an XML schema =
when the previous version was a Relax NG schema. &nbsp;This<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;doesn't seem like a good idea to me.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Dan Banks<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;-----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;[<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</span></a>] Sent: Sunday, =
March 20, 2016 9:09<br class=3D"">&nbsp;AM To: Randall Gellens; James =
Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Newton;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subject: Re: [Ecrit] =
Additional Data Draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(again)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Randy, Hi James,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working =
on an update to</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; reflect these changes.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Here is the link to the =
work in progress document:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/add=
itional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/=
additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt</span></a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao Hannes<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks for listing the steps, James.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes, does this sound like the plan to =
you?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Brian, do you concur?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks everyone.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;So, just make sure =
I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;enumeration for the schema so all values now come from =
the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registry only 2) Add main number to the registry =
3) Change the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;namespace 4) Update all examples to =
use the new namespace 5)<br class=3D"">&nbsp;register the namespace and =
schema with IANA<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers James<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;On 19 Mar 2016, at =
8:51 am, Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm OK with changing the namespace if we =
need to.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, =
James Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I think that the general approach is okay, I remain<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace =
however,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative =
and it has an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;error and our solution requires the =
error be corrected.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers James<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;On 17 Mar 2016, at =
5:54 am, Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I am not very =
familiar with the process around updating<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents, =
&nbsp;but to me this suggests: - we should not need<br class=3D"">&nbsp;to=
 do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;informative schema in the additional data document =
to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;take into account the verified errata (there =
are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;several), - we should seek review of =
"main-number" as an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;addition to the &nbsp;registry, =
and update the additional data<br class=3D"">&nbsp;draft to formally =
make &nbsp;that addition.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;This sounds reasonable to me. &nbsp;We =
also won't need to change<br class=3D"">&nbsp;the namespace.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are =
personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;suspect; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;selected tag: --------------- &nbsp;A list is only as =
strong as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;its weakest link. &nbsp;--Donald =
Knuth</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect;<br class=3D"">&nbsp;I speak for =
myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;--------------- &nbsp;640K ought to be enough for =
anybody. &nbsp;--Bill<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Gates, 1981</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; =
name=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Description: OpenPGP =
digital signature<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Disposition: attachment; =
filename=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Attachment =
converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc ( &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;) (0331F6EF)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<br =
class=3D"">Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for =
myself only<br class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: =
---------------<br class=3D"">Military justice is to justice what =
military music is to music.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a></span><o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Randall =
Gellens<br class=3D"">Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are =
suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only<br =
class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------<br =
class=3D"">Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer =
which<br class=3D"">might be wrong. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Richard Feynman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 13:45:22 +0200
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ecrit/Dy8UQVWQMtnzI2DSDKZ9lAOtmIw>
Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Thank you Keith that is my point exactly, but that is NOT what is being done=
.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 6 Apr 2016, at 1:32 pm, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.=
com> wrote:
>=20
> But that is nothing to do with IANA.
> =20
> I am not an XML expert, but a schema is defined by an RFC. If another RFC n=
eeds to change it, it needs a point of extension somewhere in the original s=
chema, and then the new RFC needs to proposal that extension.
> =20
> Otherwise the new RFC needs to do a delete all and replace on the old RFC.=

> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:41
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Yes, and, as specified, it cannot use the new token we are introducing.
> =20
> =20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:40 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <keith.drage@nokia.c=
om> wrote:
> =20
> The schema is in the RFC. That is the normative version.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:38
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> So just to make sure I get this right.
> You believe that text in the RFC can update the schema, without having to r=
epublish the schema?
> =20
> =20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <keith.drage@nokia.c=
om> wrote:
> =20
> I do not believe you are correct.
> =20
> IANA works as a subcontractor for IETF in maintaining a set of registries.=
 Putting something into the registry does not change anything in the protoco=
l, it merely ensures that no one else tries to use that value for something e=
lse, and provides an informative pointer as to which documents the real allo=
cation may be found in. We do not need normative text to get IANA to do some=
thing, in the same way as we don=E2=80=99t need a normative statement to ens=
ure the RFC editor edits the document in accordance with the IETF drafting r=
ules.
> =20
> Ensuring that the schema does not break validation is the responsibility o=
f the text in the RFC, not the registry.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:13
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish to in=
troduce a new IANA token into the registry for use in a way that schema will=
 break validation for. So the registration is fine, using it is another ques=
tion.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia=
.com> wrote:
>=20
> I did a quick skim and noted two issues.
> =20
> 1)      I see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative reference. Th=
is is a set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and we do not need to=
 write normative requirements on IANA. This should be moved to the informati=
ve references. In any case, the actions of IANA are outside the scope of the=
 document as defined in section 3.
> 2)   Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from privac=
y considerations. At least from a European viewpoint this is not true. The p=
rivacy legislation in Europe makes no specific mention of emergency calls, a=
nd therefore it is up to those organizations making use of the data as to wh=
ether any of the other exemptions might apply instead. I would suggest that =E2=
=80=9CThe data structures defined here are not appropriate to be conveyed in=
 non-emergency calls because they carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D=
 is deleted from section 3, and possibly replaced with some statement about t=
aking account of any local regulatory framework on privacy.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Alissa Cooper=

> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:33
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Thanks Randy.
> =20
> We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If any=
one has strong objections to the approach in this draft (acknowledging that t=
here is no perfect compromise here and that the schema is non-normative), pl=
ease send them to the list before then.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Alissa
> =20
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wr=
ote:
> =20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has been u=
ploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids a=
ny substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would c=
ause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Appen=
dix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since thes=
e are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>=20
> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>=20
> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
> (2) Revert schema to informative?
> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?=

>=20
>=20
> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Hi Dan,
>=20
>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>=20
>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since it
>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>  registering the new schema.
>=20
>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>=20
>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of the
>  XML schema actually is.
>=20
>  I see a couple of different usages:
>=20
>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other
>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>=20
>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instance
>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be needed=
.
>=20
>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>=20
>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's
>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers"
>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found problems=
).
>=20
>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going to
>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not only
>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly related
>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>=20
>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:
>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from the
>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>=20
>  Ciao
>  Hannes
>=20
>=20
>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>=20
>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>=20
>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>=20
>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>=20
>  Dan Banks
>=20
>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft
>  (again)
>=20
>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>=20
>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>   > reflect these changes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>=20
> https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-=
data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt
>=20
>   Ciao Hannes
>=20
>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>=20
>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>=20
>  Brian, do you concur?
>=20
>  Thanks everyone.
>=20
>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>=20
>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>=20
>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>  the namespace.
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>=20
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>  Gates, 1981
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>=20
>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) (0331F6EF)
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
> =20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Thank you Keith that is my point exact=
ly, but that is NOT what is being done.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div=
><br>On 6 Apr 2016, at 1:32 pm, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:keith.drage@nokia.com">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But that is nothing to do w=
ith IANA.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I am not an XML expert, but=
 a schema is defined by an RFC. If another RFC needs to change it, it needs a=
 point of extension somewhere in the original schema,
 and then the new RFC needs to proposal that extension.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Otherwise the new RFC needs=
 to do a delete all and replace on the old RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Keith<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> EXT James W=
interbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com">mailto:a.jame=
s.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 06 April 2016 02:41<br>
<b>To:</b> Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; <a href=3D"mailt=
o:ecrit@ietf.org">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, and, as specified, it cannot use the new token w=
e are introducing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:40 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The schema is in the RFC. T=
hat is the normative version.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Keith</span><o:p></o:p></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-co=
nverted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">EXT
 James Winterbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com">mailt=
o:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 April 2016=
 02:38<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (N=
okia - GB)<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Coop=
er; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen;
<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit=
] Additional Data Draft (again)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So just to make sure I get this right.<o:p></o:p></p>=

</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You believe that text in the RFC can update the schem=
a, without having to republish the schema?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">k=
eith.drage@nokia.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I do not believe you are co=
rrect.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">IANA works as a subcontract=
or for IETF in maintaining a set of registries. Putting something into the r=
egistry does not change anything in the protocol, it
 merely ensures that no one else tries to use that value for something else,=
 and provides an informative pointer as to which documents the real allocati=
on may be found in. We do not need normative text to get IANA to do somethin=
g, in the same way as we don=E2=80=99t
 need a normative statement to ensure the RFC editor edits the document in a=
ccordance with the IETF drafting rules.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Ensuring that the schema do=
es not break validation is the responsibility of the text in the RFC, not th=
e registry.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Keith</span><o:p></o:p></p>=

</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-co=
nverted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">EXT
 James Winterbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</span></a>]<sp=
an class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 April 2016=
 02:13<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (N=
okia - GB)<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Coop=
er; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">ecrit=
@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit=
] Additional Data Draft (again)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The schema is in=
 error, we wish to introduce a new IANA token into the registry for use in a=
 way that schema will break validation for. So the registration is fine, usi=
ng it is another question.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:keith.drage@nokia.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">keith.drage@nokia.com<=
/span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I did a quick skim and note=
d two issues.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt">1)<span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a=
 normative reference.
 This is a set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and we do not need=
 to write normative requirements on IANA. This should be moved to the inform=
ative references. In any case, the actions of IANA are outside the scope of t=
he document as defined in section
 3.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<h1 style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;mar=
gin-left:36.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;page-break-after:a=
void">
<span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cambria&quot;,&quot;serif&=
quot;;color:#365F91">2)</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#365F91;f=
ont-weight:normal">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;font-weight:normal">Section
 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from privacy consideratio=
ns. At least from a European viewpoint this is not true. The privacy legisla=
tion in Europe makes no specific mention of emergency calls, and therefore i=
t is up to those organizations
 making use of the data as to whether any of the other exemptions might appl=
y instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe data structures defined here ar=
e not appropriate to be conveyed in non-emergency calls because they carry s=
ensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D is deleted
 from section 3, and possibly replaced with some statement about taking acco=
unt of any local regulatory framework on privacy.</span><o:p></o:p></h1>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Keith</span><o:p></o:p></p>=

</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-co=
nverted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Ecrit
 [<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">mai=
lto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an></b>EXT Alissa Cooper<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>05 April 2016=
 22:33<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Randall Gellens=
<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian Rosen;<sp=
an class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf=
.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit=
] Additional Data Draft (again)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Randy.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queu=
e on April 15. If anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft=
 (acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the schema=
 is non-normative), please send them to
 the list before then.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alissa<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">rg+ietf=
@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thanks very much to everyone who helped w=
ith this. &nbsp;Version -38 has been uploaded to the drafts repository. &nbs=
p;It fixes all identifies bugs and avoids any substantial changes.<br>
<br>
We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this would ca=
use further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is again in Append=
ix A. &nbsp;We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since t=
hese are not used in the draft.<br>
<br>
--Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">So, I think we have three remaining open=
 questions, which are:<br>
<br>
Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or<br>
<br>
(1) Revert namespace to original name?<br>
(2) Revert schema to informative?<br>
(3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA tokens?<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;Hi Dan,<br>
<br>
&nbsp;the situation looks a bit tricky.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since i=
t<br>
&nbsp;changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without<br>=

&nbsp;registering the new schema.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their<br>=

&nbsp;schema again (without changing the namespace).<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of t=
he<br>
&nbsp;XML schema actually is.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I see a couple of different usages:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything other=
<br>
&nbsp;than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems<br>
<br>
&nbsp;b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instan=
ce<br>
&nbsp;documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be nee=
ded.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of<br>
&nbsp;reading the document content then changing the schema within the text<=
br>
&nbsp;(as we had done up to version -37) is fine.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and that'=
s<br>
&nbsp;why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually<b=
r>
&nbsp;broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most developers=
"<br>
&nbsp;is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who<=
br>
&nbsp;actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found probl=
ems).<br>
<br>
&nbsp;However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going t=
o<br>
&nbsp;improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the<b=
r>
&nbsp;area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not onl=
y<br>
&nbsp;about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly relat=
ed<br>
&nbsp;to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many<=
br>
&nbsp;other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, namely:=
<br>
&nbsp;What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from th=
e<br>
&nbsp;original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Ciao<br>
&nbsp;Hannes<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;I'm not entirely sure this is the r=
ight way to go.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still<br>
&nbsp;excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of<b=
r>
&nbsp;an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Second, is changing the namespace really necessary? &nbsp;Perhaps I do=
n't<br>
&nbsp;understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the<=
br>
&nbsp;RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in<br=
>
&nbsp;light of the existing errata already being verified status (as<br>
&nbsp;opposed to held for update). &nbsp;That suggests to me that any RFC 63=
51<br>
&nbsp;implementation should take this errata into account.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will<=
br>
&nbsp;not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that<br=
>
&nbsp;considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be<br>
&nbsp;normative. &nbsp;This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema wi=
th<br>
&nbsp;an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema. &nbsp;T=
his<br>
&nbsp;doesn't seem like a good idea to me.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Dan Banks<br>
<br>
&nbsp;-----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig<br>
&nbsp;[<a href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</span></a>] Sent: Sunday, March 20, 20=
16 9:09<br>
&nbsp;AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew<br>
&nbsp;Newton;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"m=
ailto:ecrit@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a>=
<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Addi=
tional Data Draft<br>
&nbsp;(again)<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Hi Randy, Hi James,<br>
<br>
&nbsp;the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; reflect these changes.<=
br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&nbsp;Here is the link to the work in progress document:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/ad=
ditional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/addit=
ional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt</span></a><br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao Hannes<br>
<br>
&nbsp;On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;Thanks for listing the steps, Jame=
s.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Brian, do you concur?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Thanks everyone.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;So, just make sure I am clear on w=
hat the plan is: 1) Remove the<br>
&nbsp;enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the<br>
&nbsp;registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the<br>
&nbsp;namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)<br>
&nbsp;register the namespace and schema with IANA<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Cheers James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randal=
l Gellens<br>
&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;I think that the general approach i=
s okay, I remain<br>
&nbsp;unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,<br>
&nbsp;because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an<br>
&nbsp;error and our solution requires the error be corrected.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Cheers James<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randal=
l Gellens<br>
&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;I am not very familiar with the pr=
ocess around updating<br>
&nbsp;documents, &nbsp;but to me this suggests: - we should not need<br>
&nbsp;to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the<br>
&nbsp;informative schema in the additional data document to<br>
&nbsp;take into account the verified errata (there are<br>
&nbsp;several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an<br>
&nbsp;addition to the &nbsp;registry, and update the additional data<br>
&nbsp;draft to formally make &nbsp;that addition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
&nbsp;This sounds reasonable to me. &nbsp;We also won't need to change<br>
&nbsp;the namespace.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are<=
br>
&nbsp;suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Rand=
omly<br>
&nbsp;selected tag: --------------- &nbsp;A list is only as strong as<br>
&nbsp;its weakest link. &nbsp;--Donald Knuth</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are s=
uspect;<br>
&nbsp;I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:<br>
&nbsp;--------------- &nbsp;640K ought to be enough for anybody. &nbsp;--Bil=
l<br>
&nbsp;Gates, 1981</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"<br>
&nbsp;Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature<br>
&nbsp;Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"<br>
<br>
&nbsp;Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc ( &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ &=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;) (0331F6EF)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Randall Gellens<br>
Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;I speak for myself only<br>
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------<br>
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ecrit mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">Ecrit@ietf.or=
g</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a></span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<br>
--<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
Randall Gellens<br>
Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;I speak for myself only<br>
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------<br>
Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which<br>
might be wrong. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Richard Feynman<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ecrit mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:purple">Ecrit@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a><o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Ecrit mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">Ecrit@ietf.or=
g</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a><o:p></o:p></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBAB64@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 22:08:32 +1000
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References: <56E03BA4.5080104@gmx.net> <CAAQiQRdAbWQk5d+_a6D9wk6ocUTcL3iYpSpS5C5haXO18oyvSg@mail.gmail.com> <6B0C4B6C-C597-4A83-8BB1-B9C059CEB392@gmail.com> <CY1PR17MB0362D522FED4FC4102AF3519A78A0@CY1PR17MB0362.namprd17.prod.ou tlook.com> <p06240603d30f5c3a484f@[99.111.97.136]> <A6BAB996-DE33-473F-A91A-283E40206D68@gmail.com> <p06240607d31228c439d0@[99.111.97.136]> <64464174-A94C-4B2F-8C4E-CAA1BCB4E40F@gmail.com> <p06240608d3123d871783@[99.111.97.136]> <56EEA101.6010409@gmx.net> <SN1PR17MB0366B887DA4EF1BAD5789AF3A78F0@SN1PR17MB0366.namprd17.prod.ou tlook.com> <56F04C03.4010105@gmx.net> <p0624060bd316296861fe@[99.111.97.136]> <p0624060dd329da08e9a0@dhcp-93ce.meeting.ietf.org> <AEF2C313-59FE-49F4-BF8B-3DC164A15110@cooperw.in> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA553@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <8622C464-985C-4100-A9B3-E193AB406B0A@gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA67B@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <A26E5D8F-C522-4DCA-876E-5AA3BC980EF2@gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBA6BC@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <9CED0855-85CA-44CB-9774-2CCCE712C074@gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBAB0B@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <7B19A75C-77E9-482A-9389-A8023ADE665C@gmail.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBAB64@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
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Cc: Brian Rosen <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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	charset=utf-8

Point 1 is from registering an entity in an IANA registry.

My issue, as you say, is that the schema can=E2=80=99t handle it and =
saying =E2=80=9Cjust use it anyway=E2=80=9D in the additional-data draft =
is not a reasonable solution.

Cheers
James

> On 6 Apr 2016, at 9:48 pm, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) =
<keith.drage@nokia.com> wrote:
>=20
> Right, so my point 1 is therefore fine from your perspective.
> =20
> I am not going to take sides on whether the extra indication is =
required, but I would not that any coding (in this case a schema) should =
indicate how it is extensible and apparently this one does not.=20
> =20
> Otherwise the fundamental aspects of forward compatibility have not =
been dealt with.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com]=20=

> Sent: 06 April 2016 12:45
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Thank you Keith that is my point exactly, but that is NOT what is =
being done.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 1:32 pm, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
>=20
> But that is nothing to do with IANA.
> =20
> I am not an XML expert, but a schema is defined by an RFC. If another =
RFC needs to change it, it needs a point of extension somewhere in the =
original schema, and then the new RFC needs to proposal that extension.
> =20
> Otherwise the new RFC needs to do a delete all and replace on the old =
RFC.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com =
<mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:41
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Yes, and, as specified, it cannot use the new token we are =
introducing.
> =20
> =20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:40 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
> =20
> The schema is in the RFC. That is the normative version.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com =
<mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:38
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> So just to make sure I get this right.
> You believe that text in the RFC can update the schema, without having =
to republish the schema?
> =20
> =20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I do not believe you are correct.
> =20
> IANA works as a subcontractor for IETF in maintaining a set of =
registries. Putting something into the registry does not change anything =
in the protocol, it merely ensures that no one else tries to use that =
value for something else, and provides an informative pointer as to =
which documents the real allocation may be found in. We do not need =
normative text to get IANA to do something, in the same way as we =
don=E2=80=99t need a normative statement to ensure the RFC editor edits =
the document in accordance with the IETF drafting rules.
> =20
> Ensuring that the schema does not break validation is the =
responsibility of the text in the RFC, not the registry.
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: EXT James Winterbottom [mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com =
<mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: 06 April 2016 02:13
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall Gellens; Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Point 1 is not a simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish =
to introduce a new IANA token into the registry for use in a way that =
schema will break validation for. So the registration is fine, using it =
is another question.
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 6 Apr 2016, at 12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" =
<keith.drage@nokia.com <mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I did a quick skim and noted two issues.
> =20
> 1)      I see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative =
reference. This is a set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and =
we do not need to write normative requirements on IANA. This should be =
moved to the informative references. In any case, the actions of IANA =
are outside the scope of the document as defined in section 3.
> 2)   Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are exempt from =
privacy considerations. At least from a European viewpoint this is not =
true. The privacy legislation in Europe makes no specific mention of =
emergency calls, and therefore it is up to those organizations making =
use of the data as to whether any of the other exemptions might apply =
instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe data structures defined here =
are not appropriate to be conveyed in non-emergency calls because they =
carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D is deleted from section 3, =
and possibly replaced with some statement about taking account of any =
local regulatory framework on privacy.
> =20
> Regards
> =20
> Keith
> =20
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of EXT Alissa Cooper
> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:33
> To: Randall Gellens
> Cc: Brian Rosen; ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
> =20
> Thanks Randy.
> =20
> We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on April 15. If =
anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft =
(acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the =
schema is non-normative), please send them to the list before then.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Alissa
> =20
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org =
<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
> =20
> Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this.  Version -38 has =
been uploaded to the drafts repository.  It fixes all identifies bugs =
and avoids any substantial changes.
>=20
> We decided not to change the namespace, per Dan's warning that this =
would cause further problems (sorry, James), and the xCard schema is =
again in Appendix A.  We did not add "x-" and "vnd-" tokens to the xCard =
schema since these are not used in the draft.
>=20
> --Randy
>=20
>=20
> At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So, I think we have three remaining open questions, which are:
>=20
> Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema normative) or
>=20
> (1) Revert namespace to original name?
> (2) Revert schema to informative?
> (3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as IANA =
tokens?
>=20
>=20
> At 8:31 PM +0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Hi Dan,
>=20
>  the situation looks a bit tricky.
>=20
>  It seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since =
it
>  changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace and without
>  registering the new schema.
>=20
>  In some sense, we could be equally "relaxed" and just change their
>  schema again (without changing the namespace).
>=20
>  I believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of =
the
>  XML schema actually is.
>=20
>  I see a couple of different usages:
>=20
>  a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then anything =
other
>  than defining our own, corrected XML schema will lead to problems
>=20
>  b) If the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate =
instance
>  documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema will also be =
needed.
>=20
>  c) If the XML schema is, however, only used as a different way of
>  reading the document content then changing the schema within the text
>  (as we had done up to version -37) is fine.
>=20
>  I personally think that most developers don't do (a) and (b) and =
that's
>  why most of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually
>  broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The "most =
developers"
>  is important here since we have found developers, such as Philip, who
>  actually produce code based on the schema (which is why he found =
problems).
>=20
>  However, by making these types of "fixes" we are obviously not going =
to
>  improve the situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the
>  area directors think about this situation. In some sense it is not =
only
>  about the use of XML schemas but the issue is a bit more broadly =
related
>  to the use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many
>  other places where we messed things up, such as with ABNF.
>=20
>  Ultimately, it fear it will boil down to a different question, =
namely:
>  What does it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from =
the
>  original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing software.
>=20
>  Ciao
>  Hannes
>=20
>=20
>  On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.
>=20
>  First, if the values can only come from the registry, that still
>  excludes the x-name values (which seems to me to be nearly as big of
>  an omission as leaving out the iana-token values).
>=20
>  Second, is changing the namespace really necessary?  Perhaps I don't
>  understand the errata process correctly, but James' argument that the
>  RFC 6351 schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in
>  light of the existing errata already being verified status (as
>  opposed to held for update).  That suggests to me that any RFC 6351
>  implementation should take this errata into account.
>=20
>  Changing the namespace also brings new complications: the xCards will
>  not be interoperable with an RFC 6351 implementation (even one that
>  considers the errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be
>  normative.  This essentially redefines the entire xCard schema with
>  an XML schema when the previous version was a Relax NG schema.  This
>  doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
>=20
>  Dan Banks
>=20
>  -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig
>  [mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net <mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>] =
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:09
>  AM To: Randall Gellens; James Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew
>  Newton; ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] =
Additional Data Draft
>  (again)
>=20
>  Hi Randy, Hi James,
>=20
>  the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working on an update to
>   > reflect these changes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Here is the link to the work in progress document:
>=20
> =
https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional-=
data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt =
<https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/additional=
-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt>
>=20
>   Ciao Hannes
>=20
>  On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Thanks for listing the steps, James.
>=20
>  Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?
>=20
>  Brian, do you concur?
>=20
>  Thanks everyone.
>=20
>  At 9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) Remove the
>  enumeration for the schema so all values now come from the
>  registry only 2) Add main number to the registry 3) Change the
>  namespace 4) Update all examples to use the new namespace 5)
>  register the namespace and schema with IANA
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>=20
>  I'm OK with changing the namespace if we need to.
>=20
>  At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, James Winterbottom wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I think that the general approach is okay, I remain
>  unconvinced that we don't need a new namespace however,
>  because the schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an
>  error and our solution requires the error be corrected.
>=20
>  Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens
>  <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>=20
>  At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  I am not very familiar with the process around updating
>  documents,  but to me this suggests: - we should not need
>  to do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the
>  informative schema in the additional data document to
>  take into account the verified errata (there are
>  several), - we should seek review of "main-number" as an
>  addition to the  registry, and update the additional data
>  draft to formally make  that addition.
>=20
>  This sounds reasonable to me.  We also won't need to change
>  the namespace.
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are
>  suspect;    I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly
>  selected tag: ---------------  A list is only as strong as
>  its weakest link.  --Donald Knuth
>=20
>=20
>  -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;
>  I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:
>  ---------------  640K ought to be enough for anybody.  --Bill
>  Gates, 1981
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
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>  Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=3D"signature.asc"
>  Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>  Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=3D"signature.asc"
>=20
>  Attachment converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc (    /    ) =
(0331F6EF)
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Not knowing is much more interesting than believing an answer which
> might be wrong.                              --Richard Feynman
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
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> Ecrit@ietf.org <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>

--Apple-Mail=_0D6F3887-6C32-49CC-B887-06C6B5703E9B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Point 1 is from registering an entity in an IANA =
registry.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My issue, =
as you say, is that the schema can=E2=80=99t handle it and saying =
=E2=80=9Cjust use it anyway=E2=80=9D in the additional-data draft is not =
a reasonable solution.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers</div><div class=3D"">James</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
6 Apr 2016, at 9:48 pm, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Right, so my point 1 is therefore fine =
from your perspective.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I am not going to take sides on whether =
the extra indication is required, but I would not that any coding (in =
this case a schema) should indicate how it is extensible and apparently =
this one does not.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Otherwise the =
fundamental aspects of forward compatibility have not been dealt =
with.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Regards<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Keith<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT James Winterbottom [<a =
href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 12:45<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen; <a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thank you Keith that =
is my point exactly, but that is NOT what is being done.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On=
 6 Apr 2016, at 1:32 pm, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But that is nothing to =
do with IANA.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I am not an XML expert, but a schema is =
defined by an RFC. If another RFC needs to change it, it needs a point =
of extension somewhere in the original schema, and then the new RFC =
needs to proposal that extension.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Otherwise the new RFC =
needs to do a delete all and replace on the old RFC.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT James =
Winterbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 02:41<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Yes, and, as specified, it cannot use the =
new token we are introducing.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 6 Apr 2016, at =
11:40 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The schema is in the RFC. That is the =
normative version.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">EXT=
 James Winterbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 02:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">So just to make sure I get this right.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">You believe that text in the RFC can =
update the schema, without having to republish the schema?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 6 =
Apr 2016, at 11:36 am, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I do not believe you =
are correct.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">IANA works as a subcontractor for IETF in maintaining a set =
of registries. Putting something into the registry does not change =
anything in the protocol, it merely ensures that no one else tries to =
use that value for something else, and provides an informative pointer =
as to which documents the real allocation may be found in. We do not =
need normative text to get IANA to do something, in the same way as we =
don=E2=80=99t need a normative statement to ensure the RFC editor edits =
the document in accordance with the IETF drafting rules.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ensuring that the schema does not break =
validation is the responsibility of the text in the RFC, not the =
registry.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">EXT=
 James Winterbottom [<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>06 =
April 2016 02:13<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Drage, Keith (Nokia - =
GB)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>EXT Alissa Cooper; Randall =
Gellens; Brian Rosen;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Point 1 is not a =
simple IANA change. The schema is in error, we wish to introduce a new =
IANA token into the registry for use in a way that schema will break =
validation for. So the registration is fine, using it is another =
question.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On 6 Apr 2016, at =
12:05 am, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:keith.drage@nokia.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">keith.drage@nokia.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I did a quick skim and noted two =
issues.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 36pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: =
-18pt;" class=3D"">1)<span style=3D"font-size: 7pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I =
see no reason why RFC 5226 needs to be a normative reference. This is a =
set of instructions that IANA needs to follow, and we do not need to =
write normative requirements on IANA. This should be moved to the =
informative references. In any case, the actions of IANA are outside the =
scope of the document as defined in section 3.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><h1 style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; =
margin-left: 36pt; font-size: 24pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-indent: -18pt; page-break-after: =
avoid;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Cambria, =
serif; color: rgb(54, 95, 145);" class=3D"">2)</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(54, 95, 145); font-weight: normal;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-weight: =
normal;" class=3D"">Section 3 somehow implies that emergency calls are =
exempt from privacy considerations. At least from a European viewpoint =
this is not true. The privacy legislation in Europe makes no specific =
mention of emergency calls, and therefore it is up to those =
organizations making use of the data as to whether any of the other =
exemptions might apply instead. I would suggest that =E2=80=9CThe data =
structures defined here are not appropriate to be conveyed in =
non-emergency calls because they carry sensitive and private data.=E2=80=9D=
 is deleted from section 3, and possibly replaced with some statement =
about taking account of any local regulatory framework on =
privacy.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></h1><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Regards</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Keith</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit [<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>EXT Alissa =
Cooper<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>05 April 2016 22:33<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian Rosen;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data =
Draft (again)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thanks Randy.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">We will unstick this in the RFC Editor=E2=80=99s queue on =
April 15. If anyone has strong objections to the approach in this draft =
(acknowledging that there is no perfect compromise here and that the =
schema is non-normative), please send them to the list before then.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Alissa<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Randall =
Gellens &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks very much to everyone who helped with this. =
&nbsp;Version -38 has been uploaded to the drafts repository. &nbsp;It =
fixes all identifies bugs and avoids any substantial changes.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">We decided not to change the namespace, per =
Dan's warning that this would cause further problems (sorry, James), and =
the xCard schema is again in Appendix A. &nbsp;We did not add "x-" and =
"vnd-" tokens to the xCard schema since these are not used in the =
draft.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--Randy<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 5:05 PM -0700 3/21/16, Randall Gellens =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, I think we have =
three remaining open questions, which are:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Should we go with -38 as it is (new namespace and schema =
normative) or<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(1) Revert namespace to =
original name?<br class=3D"">(2) Revert schema to informative?<br =
class=3D"">(3) Do we add to the schema "x-" and "vnd-" tokens as well as =
IANA tokens?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">At 8:31 PM =
+0100 3/21/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Dan,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;the =
situation looks a bit tricky.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;It =
seems that accepting the errata wasn't quite the right thing since it<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;changes an XML schema without defining a new namespace =
and without<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registering the new schema.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;In some sense, we could be equally =
"relaxed" and just change their<br class=3D"">&nbsp;schema again =
(without changing the namespace).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I =
believe it ultimately boils down to the question what the value of =
the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;XML schema actually is.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I see a couple of different usages:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;a) If someone uses the XML schema to generate code then =
anything other<br class=3D"">&nbsp;than defining our own, corrected XML =
schema will lead to problems<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;b) If =
the XML schema is only used by an implementer to validate instance<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;documents than defining our own, corrected XML schema =
will also be needed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;c) If the XML =
schema is, however, only used as a different way of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;reading the document content then changing the schema =
within the text<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(as we had done up to version -37) =
is fine.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I personally think that most =
developers don't do (a) and (b) and that's<br class=3D"">&nbsp;why most =
of the XML schemas in technical specifications are actually<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;broken (not only in the IETF but also elsewhere). The =
"most developers"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;is important here since we have =
found developers, such as Philip, who<br class=3D"">&nbsp;actually =
produce code based on the schema (which is why he found problems).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;However, by making these types of =
"fixes" we are obviously not going to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;improve the =
situation. It is also the question what the IESG and the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;area directors think about this situation. In some =
sense it is not only<br class=3D"">&nbsp;about the use of XML schemas =
but the issue is a bit more broadly related<br class=3D"">&nbsp;to the =
use of formal languages in the IETF in general. There are many<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;other places where we messed things up, such as with =
ABNF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ultimately, it fear it will =
boil down to a different question, namely:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;What does =
it mean if the VCard schema in our spec is different from the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;original VCard schema in terms of re-use with existing =
software.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Ciao<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/21/2016 05:20 PM, Dan Banks wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm not entirely sure this is the right way to go.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;First, if the values can only come from =
the registry, that still<br class=3D"">&nbsp;excludes the x-name values =
(which seems to me to be nearly as big of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;an =
omission as leaving out the iana-token values).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Second, is changing the namespace really necessary? =
&nbsp;Perhaps I don't<br class=3D"">&nbsp;understand the errata process =
correctly, but James' argument that the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;RFC 6351 =
schema error requires it does not seem persuasive to me in<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;light of the existing errata already being verified =
status (as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;opposed to held for update). &nbsp;That =
suggests to me that any RFC 6351<br class=3D"">&nbsp;implementation =
should take this errata into account.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Changing the namespace also brings new complications: =
the xCards will<br class=3D"">&nbsp;not be interoperable with an RFC =
6351 implementation (even one that<br class=3D"">&nbsp;considers the =
errata), and the Appendix A schema would have to be<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;normative. &nbsp;This essentially redefines the entire =
xCard schema with<br class=3D"">&nbsp;an XML schema when the previous =
version was a Relax NG schema. &nbsp;This<br class=3D"">&nbsp;doesn't =
seem like a good idea to me.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Dan =
Banks<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;-----Original Message----- =
From: Hannes Tschofenig<br class=3D"">&nbsp;[<a =
href=3D"mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net</span></a>] Sent: Sunday, =
March 20, 2016 9:09<br class=3D"">&nbsp;AM To: Randall Gellens; James =
Winterbottom Cc: Dan Banks; Andrew<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Newton;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subject: Re: [Ecrit] =
Additional Data Draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;(again)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hi Randy, Hi James,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the proposal makes sense to me an I have been working =
on an update to</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; reflect these changes.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Here is the link to the work in progress =
document:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/add=
itional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/hannestschofenig/tschofenig-ids/blob/master/=
additional-data/draft-ietf-ecrit-additional-data-38.txt</span></a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao Hannes<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 03/19/2016 12:20 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks for listing the steps, James.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Hannes, does this sound like the plan to you?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Brian, do you concur?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Thanks everyone.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At =
9:05 AM +1100 3/19/16, James Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;So, just make sure I am clear on what the plan is: 1) =
Remove the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;enumeration for the schema so all values =
now come from the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;registry only 2) Add main number =
to the registry 3) Change the<br class=3D"">&nbsp;namespace 4) Update =
all examples to use the new namespace 5)<br class=3D"">&nbsp;register =
the namespace and schema with IANA<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers James<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 19 Mar 2016, at 8:51 am, Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;I'm OK with changing the namespace if we =
need to.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 6:51 PM +1100 3/17/16, =
James Winterbottom wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I think that the =
general approach is okay, I remain<br class=3D"">&nbsp;unconvinced that =
we don't need a new namespace however,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;because the =
schema in RFC 6351 is normative and it has an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;error =
and our solution requires the error be corrected.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Cheers James<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;On 17 Mar 2016, at 5:54 am, Randall Gellens<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</span></a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;At 3:50 PM +0000 3/16/16, Dan Banks =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I am not very =
familiar with the process around updating<br class=3D"">&nbsp;documents, =
&nbsp;but to me this suggests: - we should not need<br class=3D"">&nbsp;to=
 do an update to RFC 6351, - we should fix the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;informative schema in the additional data document =
to<br class=3D"">&nbsp;take into account the verified errata (there =
are<br class=3D"">&nbsp;several), - we should seek review of =
"main-number" as an<br class=3D"">&nbsp;addition to the &nbsp;registry, =
and update the additional data<br class=3D"">&nbsp;draft to formally =
make &nbsp;that addition.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;This =
sounds reasonable to me. &nbsp;We also won't need to change<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the namespace.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;-- =
Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only =
-------------- Randomly<br class=3D"">&nbsp;selected tag: =
--------------- &nbsp;A list is only as strong as<br class=3D"">&nbsp;its =
weakest link. &nbsp;--Donald Knuth</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;-- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect;<br class=3D"">&nbsp;I speak for =
myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;--------------- &nbsp;640K ought to be enough for =
anybody. &nbsp;--Bill<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Gates, 1981</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; =
name=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Description: OpenPGP =
digital signature<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Content-Disposition: attachment; =
filename=3D"signature.asc"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;Attachment =
converted: TiLand:signature 1702.asc ( &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;) (0331F6EF)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">Opinions are =
personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak =
for myself only<br class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: =
---------------<br class=3D"">Military justice is to justice what =
military music is to music.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a></span><o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">Opinions are personal; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for =
myself only<br class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: =
---------------<br class=3D"">Not knowing is much more interesting than =
believing an answer which<br class=3D"">might be wrong. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Richard Feynman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit</span></a></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Randall Gellens (IETF)" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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We did modify the schema; it contains an IANAtoken value.=20

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 9, 2016, at 10:23 PM, James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
>=20
> I totally disagree with this approach and the argument that the document i=
s far progressed not a reasonable excuse for publishing a document that has c=
lear issues.
>=20
> The approach below results in two different schemas with the same namespac=
e one of which is considered normative and the other informative yet the add=
itional-data specification will require use of the informative schema.
>=20
> What is the issue with altering the schema to accommodate what we want, mo=
ve the undesirable token sets into a repository, change the namespace and ma=
king it normative?
> This ensures integrity of namespaces, it doesn=E2=80=99t really structural=
ly change the document, but it does result in a much better outcome.
>=20
> Cheers
> James
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 10 Mar 2016, at 11:35 am, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> w=
rote:
>>=20
>> At 4:05 PM +0100 3/9/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Because of this normative change we need to reach out to you. If you
>>> have other suggestions on what we should do please let us know!
>>=20
>> The solution detailed by Hannes is a fine one, and is the approach I'd re=
commend if the draft was earlier in the process.  Given the late stage, my p=
reference is to make minimal changes to the draft. The minimalist approach w=
ould be the following:
>>=20
>>   (1) fix the example to use 'main-number'
>>   (2) fix the xCard schema in Appendix A to add 'main-number' to the list=
 of values
>>   (3) in the text in Section 4 that normatively adds 'main-number' to xCa=
rd, add an explanatory note that this new value is added in the xCard schema=
 in the document but does not appear in RFC 6351, and note that should addit=
ional values be needed in the future, a new IANA registry of the values is r=
ecommended
>>   (4) in Appendix A, add a note that the schema is a simplified version o=
f RFC 6351 with the addition of 'main-number'
>>=20
>> These changes are a way to fix the document with the least impact. There i=
s no requirement that XML schemas in RFCs be normative since the text is alw=
ays normative.  There is no requirement to add an IANA registry when a list o=
f strings is expanded.  In new documents, it is cleaner and better to do bot=
h, but to fix late-stage bugs we can skip both.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>> The great Chinese philosopher Confucius wrote, "When words lose their
>> meaning, the universe crumbles."  Theologically and cosmologically, I'm
>> not sure about that.  I am sure that when our government is
>> characterized as "amoral, godless and secularist," our public schools
>> as "failures" and our judges as "tyrants," simplistic solutions
>> promoted by demagogues will seem appropriate.
>> -- Barry Lynn,
>>  Executive Director of
>>  Americans United for Separation of Church and State
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equ=
iv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div>We did modif=
y the schema; it contains an IANAtoken value.&nbsp;<br><br>Sent from my iPad=
</div><div><br>On Mar 9, 2016, at 10:23 PM, James Winterbottom &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com">a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Co=
ntent-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8">I totally disagree with th=
is approach and the argument that the document is far progressed not a reaso=
nable excuse for publishing a document that has clear issues.<div class=3D""=
><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The approach below results in two diff=
erent schemas with the same namespace one of which is considered normative a=
nd the other informative yet the additional-data specification will require u=
se of the informative schema.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">What is the issue with altering the schema to accommodate what w=
e want, move the undesirable token sets into a repository, change the namesp=
ace and making it normative?</div><div class=3D"">This ensures integrity of n=
amespaces, it doesn=E2=80=99t really structurally change the document, but i=
t does result in a much better outcome.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
</div><div class=3D"">Cheers</div><div class=3D"">James<br class=3D""><div c=
lass=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div cla=
ss=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 10 Mar 2016, at 11:35 am, Randa=
ll Gellens &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" class=3D"">rg+ie=
tf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newl=
ine"><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;=
 font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spaci=
ng: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !impor=
tant;" class=3D"">At 4:05 PM +0100 3/9/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font=
-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1=
2px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-=
indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D=
"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transf=
orm: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Because of this normative ch=
ange we need to reach out to you. If you<br class=3D"">have other suggestion=
s on what we should do please let us know!<br class=3D""></blockquote><br st=
yle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-var=
iant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: norm=
al; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none=
; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-=
width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp=
acing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !im=
portant;" class=3D"">The solution detailed by Hannes is a fine one, and is t=
he approach I'd recommend if the draft was earlier in the process. &nbsp;Giv=
en the late stage, my preference is to make minimal changes to the draft. Th=
e minimalist approach would be the following:</span><br style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font=
-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;=
 text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=
=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-=
height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra=
nsform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-=
text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; f=
ont-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: norma=
l; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: s=
tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display=
: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(1) fix the example to use 'mai=
n-number'</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-s=
tyle: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: nor=
mal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px=
; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px=
; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: He=
lvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-wei=
ght: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; tex=
t-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;=
 widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: non=
e; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(2) fix the xCard sch=
ema in Appendix A to add 'main-number' to the list of values</span><br style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-varian=
t: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;=
 orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; w=
hite-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;=
 font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spaci=
ng: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !impor=
tant;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(3) in the text in Section 4 that normatively a=
dds 'main-number' to xCard, add an explanatory note that this new value is a=
dded in the xCard schema in the document but does not appear in RFC 6351, an=
d note that should additional values be needed in the future, a new IANA reg=
istry of the values is recommended</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica=
; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: no=
rmal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align=
: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows=
: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-=
variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;(4) in Appendix A, add a note that the schema is a simplified version of=
 RFC 6351 with the addition of 'main-number'</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-=
weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norma=
l; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D=
""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transf=
orm: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font=
-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: in=
line !important;" class=3D"">These changes are a way to fix the document wit=
h the least impact. There is no requirement that XML schemas in RFCs be norm=
ative since the text is always normative. &nbsp;There is no requirement to a=
dd an IANA registry when a list of strings is expanded. &nbsp;In new documen=
ts, it is cleaner and better to do both, but to fix late-stage bugs we can s=
kip both.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-s=
tyle: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: nor=
mal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px=
; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px=
; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helv=
etica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weigh=
t: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-=
align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; w=
idows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">=
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heigh=
t: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">--<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; f=
ont-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: au=
to; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: n=
ormal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: n=
ormal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; li=
ne-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-=
transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D=
"">Randall Gellens</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12p=
x; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spa=
cing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-in=
dent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spa=
cing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;=
 font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: a=
uto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; fl=
oat: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Opinions are personal; &n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only=
</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: nor=
mal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; f=
ont-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: norma=
l; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: s=
tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display=
: inline !important;" class=3D"">-------------- Randomly selected tag: -----=
----------</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-=
style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: no=
rmal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p=
x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0p=
x; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: no=
ne; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The great Chinese philosopher Co=
nfucius wrote, "When words lose their</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvet=
ica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:=
 normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-al=
ign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wid=
ows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height=
: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-s=
troke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">meani=
ng, the universe crumbles." &nbsp;Theologically and cosmologically, I'm</spa=
n><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heigh=
t: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-s=
ize: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; le=
tter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;=
 text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; w=
ord-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inli=
ne !important;" class=3D"">not sure about that. &nbsp;I am sure that when ou=
r government is</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing=
: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent=
: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto=
; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float=
: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">characterized as "amoral, go=
dless and secularist," our public schools</span><br style=3D"font-family: He=
lvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-wei=
ght: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; tex=
t-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;=
 widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal=
; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-he=
ight: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-trans=
form: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te=
xt-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">a=
s "failures" and our judges as "tyrants," simplistic solutions</span><br sty=
le=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-vari=
ant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: norma=
l; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;=
 white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-w=
idth: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12p=
x; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spa=
cing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-in=
dent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spa=
cing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !imp=
ortant;" class=3D"">promoted by demagogues will seem appropriate.</span><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-va=
riant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: nor=
mal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1=
2px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-=
indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !i=
mportant;" class=3D"">-- Barry Lynn,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helveti=
ca; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-alig=
n: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widow=
s: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font=
-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;Ex=
ecutive Director of</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp=
acing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-=
family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal=
; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:=
 auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac=
e: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; f=
loat: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;Americans United f=
or Separation of Church and State</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;=
 font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br st=
yle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-var=
iant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: norm=
al; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none=
; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-=
width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp=
acing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !im=
portant;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><=
br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fon=
t-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:=
 normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-st=
roke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-siz=
e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; lett=
er-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inlin=
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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:33:15 +0200
To: "Randall Gellens (IETF)" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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But it has kept the same namespace which is a clash.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 6 Apr 2016, at 3:26 pm, "Randall Gellens (IETF)" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive=
.org> wrote:
>=20
> We did modify the schema; it contains an IANAtoken value.=20
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
>> On Mar 9, 2016, at 10:23 PM, James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gma=
il.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I totally disagree with this approach and the argument that the document i=
s far progressed not a reasonable excuse for publishing a document that has c=
lear issues.
>>=20
>> The approach below results in two different schemas with the same namespa=
ce one of which is considered normative and the other informative yet the ad=
ditional-data specification will require use of the informative schema.
>>=20
>> What is the issue with altering the schema to accommodate what we want, m=
ove the undesirable token sets into a repository, change the namespace and m=
aking it normative?
>> This ensures integrity of namespaces, it doesn=E2=80=99t really structura=
lly change the document, but it does result in a much better outcome.
>>=20
>> Cheers
>> James
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 10 Mar 2016, at 11:35 am, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>=
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>> At 4:05 PM +0100 3/9/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Because of this normative change we need to reach out to you. If you
>>>> have other suggestions on what we should do please let us know!
>>>=20
>>> The solution detailed by Hannes is a fine one, and is the approach I'd r=
ecommend if the draft was earlier in the process.  Given the late stage, my p=
reference is to make minimal changes to the draft. The minimalist approach w=
ould be the following:
>>>=20
>>>   (1) fix the example to use 'main-number'
>>>   (2) fix the xCard schema in Appendix A to add 'main-number' to the lis=
t of values
>>>   (3) in the text in Section 4 that normatively adds 'main-number' to xC=
ard, add an explanatory note that this new value is added in the xCard schem=
a in the document but does not appear in RFC 6351, and note that should addi=
tional values be needed in the future, a new IANA registry of the values is r=
ecommended
>>>   (4) in Appendix A, add a note that the schema is a simplified version o=
f RFC 6351 with the addition of 'main-number'
>>>=20
>>> These changes are a way to fix the document with the least impact. There=
 is no requirement that XML schemas in RFCs be normative since the text is a=
lways normative.  There is no requirement to add an IANA registry when a lis=
t of strings is expanded.  In new documents, it is cleaner and better to do b=
oth, but to fix late-stage bugs we can skip both.
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Randall Gellens
>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>> The great Chinese philosopher Confucius wrote, "When words lose their
>>> meaning, the universe crumbles."  Theologically and cosmologically, I'm
>>> not sure about that.  I am sure that when our government is
>>> characterized as "amoral, godless and secularist," our public schools
>>> as "failures" and our judges as "tyrants," simplistic solutions
>>> promoted by demagogues will seem appropriate.
>>> -- Barry Lynn,
>>>  Executive Director of
>>>  Americans United for Separation of Church and State
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>But it has kept the same namespace whi=
ch is a clash.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On 6 Apr 2016, at 3:=
26 pm, "Randall Gellens (IETF)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.=
org">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" conten=
t=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div>We did modify the schema; it contains a=
n IANAtoken value.&nbsp;<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Mar 9, 20=
16, at 10:23 PM, James Winterbottom &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a.james.winterbott=
om@gmail.com">a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"tex=
t/html charset=3Dutf-8">I totally disagree with this approach and the argume=
nt that the document is far progressed not a reasonable excuse for publishin=
g a document that has clear issues.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">The approach below results in two different schemas with the sam=
e namespace one of which is considered normative and the other informative y=
et the additional-data specification will require use of the informative sch=
ema.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What is the i=
ssue with altering the schema to accommodate what we want, move the undesira=
ble token sets into a repository, change the namespace and making it normati=
ve?</div><div class=3D"">This ensures integrity of namespaces, it doesn=E2=80=
=99t really structurally change the document, but it does result in a much b=
etter outcome.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Che=
ers</div><div class=3D"">James<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></=
div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""=
><div class=3D"">On 10 Mar 2016, at 11:35 am, Randall Gellens &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font=
-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">At 4:05 P=
M +0100 3/9/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Hel=
vetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weig=
ht: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text=
-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; w=
idows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">=
<br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fo=
nt-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height=
: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-s=
troke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font=
-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;=
 text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=
=3D""><br class=3D"">Because of this normative change we need to reach out t=
o you. If you<br class=3D"">have other suggestions on what we should do plea=
se let us know!<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helveti=
ca; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-alig=
n: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widow=
s: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font=
-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The solu=
tion detailed by Hannes is a fine one, and is the approach I'd recommend if t=
he draft was earlier in the process. &nbsp;Given the late stage, my preferen=
ce is to make minimal changes to the draft. The minimalist approach would be=
 the following:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing=
: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent=
: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-=
weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norma=
l; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: norma=
l; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-h=
eight: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;(1) fix the example to use 'main-number'</span><br style=3D"font=
-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: norma=
l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans=
: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=
" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-st=
yle: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: norm=
al; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;=
 text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;=
 -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" c=
lass=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(2) fix the xCard schema in Appendix A to add 'main-nu=
mber' to the list of values</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-=
size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D=
"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: n=
ormal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(3) in t=
he text in Section 4 that normatively adds 'main-number' to xCard, add an ex=
planatory note that this new value is added in the xCard schema in the docum=
ent but does not appear in RFC 6351, and note that should additional values b=
e needed in the future, a new IANA registry of the values is recommended</sp=
an><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transf=
orm: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font=
-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: in=
line !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;(4) in Appendix A, add a note that t=
he schema is a simplified version of RFC 6351 with the addition of 'main-num=
ber'</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:=
 normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; l=
ine-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text=
-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -web=
kit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;=
 font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-va=
riant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: nor=
mal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke=
-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">These chan=
ges are a way to fix the document with the least impact. There is no require=
ment that XML schemas in RFCs be normative since the text is always normativ=
e. &nbsp;There is no requirement to add an IANA registry when a list of stri=
ngs is expanded. &nbsp;In new documents, it is cleaner and better to do both=
, but to fix late-stage bugs we can skip both.</span><br style=3D"font-famil=
y: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto=
; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" clas=
s=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: nor=
mal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; f=
ont-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: norma=
l; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: s=
tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display=
: inline !important;" class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span></span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-=
style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: no=
rmal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p=
x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0p=
x; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: no=
ne; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Randall Gellens</span><br style=3D=
"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: n=
ormal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font=
-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0=
px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;=
" class=3D"">Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helve=
tica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight=
: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-a=
lign: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wi=
dows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><=
span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heigh=
t: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">----=
---------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------</span><br style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; f=
ont-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: au=
to; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: n=
ormal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" cla=
ss=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: n=
ormal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; li=
ne-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-=
transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D=
"">The great Chinese philosopher Confucius wrote, "When words lose their</sp=
an><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transf=
orm: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font=
-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: in=
line !important;" class=3D"">meaning, the universe crumbles." &nbsp;Theologi=
cally and cosmologically, I'm</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; fon=
t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: sta=
rt; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: aut=
o; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-varia=
nt: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal=
; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; w=
hite-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">not sure about=
 that. &nbsp;I am sure that when our government is</span><br style=3D"font-f=
amily: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;=
 font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: a=
uto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" c=
lass=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style=
: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;=
 line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">characterized as "amoral, godless and secularist," our public schools=
</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: nor=
mal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line=
-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; f=
ont-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: norma=
l; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: s=
tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: a=
uto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display=
: inline !important;" class=3D"">as "failures" and our judges as "tyrants," s=
implistic solutions</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-sp=
acing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-=
family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal=
; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:=
 auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spac=
e: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; f=
loat: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">promoted by demagogues w=
ill seem appropriate.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1=
2px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-=
indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font=
-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: norma=
l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans=
: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=
 float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">-- Barry Lynn,</span><=
br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; fon=
t-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:=
 normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-st=
roke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-siz=
e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; lett=
er-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inlin=
e !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;Executive Director of</span><br style=3D"fon=
t-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: norm=
al; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphan=
s: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-sp=
ace: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px=
;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-s=
tyle: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: nor=
mal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px=
; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px=
; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" c=
lass=3D"">&nbsp;Americans United for Separation of Church and State</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font=
-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: n=
ormal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 1=
2px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-=
indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font=
-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: norma=
l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans=
: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=
 float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">______________________=
_________________________</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-si=
ze: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; let=
ter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; t=
ext-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; wo=
rd-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: n=
ormal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Ecrit mailing list<=
/span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-=
height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra=
nsform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-=
text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org" style=3D=
"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: n=
ormal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orp=
hans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white=
-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px;" class=3D"">Ecrit@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-=
size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;=
 font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">https:=
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""></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>, "Randall Gellens (IETF)" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
Thread-Index: AQHRkAffu+LR+z2zYUOLHsbM9DRpV5980CeAgABCRDA=
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 15:47:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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--_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEBAEF9FR712WXCHMBA11z_--


From nobody Wed Apr  6 08:52:25 2016
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Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 08:52:07 -0700
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>, EXT James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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We were faced with a dilemma without an ideal solution: as Dan Banks 
pointed out, the schema already changed without changing the 
namespace, so if we'd have incompatibilities if we changed the 
namespace as well as if we didn't.  Given that the schema is 
informative, with the text being normative, we went with not changing 
the namespace.  People are supposed to implement based on the 
normative text, not the schema (just as they aren't supposed to 
implement to examples).

At 3:47 PM +0000 4/6/16, Keith (Nokia - GB) Drage wrote:

>  I do not think this an appropriate manner of extending a coding.
>
>  Regards
>
>  Keith
>
>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT James 
> Winterbottom
>  Sent: 06 April 2016 14:33
>  To: Randall Gellens (IETF)
>  Cc: ecrit@ietf.org
>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
>
>  But it has kept the same namespace which is a clash.
>
>  Sent from my iPhone
>
>  On 6 Apr 2016, at 3:26 pm, "Randall Gellens (IETF)" 
> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>  We did modify the schema; it contains an IANAtoken value. 
>
>  Sent from my iPad
>
>  On Mar 9, 2016, at 10:23 PM, James Winterbottom 
> <<mailto:a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
>  I totally disagree with this approach and the argument that the 
> document is far progressed not a reasonable excuse for publishing a 
> document that has clear issues.
>
>  The approach below results in two different schemas with the same 
> namespace one of which is considered normative and the other 
> informative yet the additional-data specification will require use 
> of the informative schema.
>
>  What is the issue with altering the schema to accommodate what we 
> want, move the undesirable token sets into a repository, change the 
> namespace and making it normative?
>  This ensures integrity of namespaces, it doesn't really 
> structurally change the document, but it does result in a much 
> better outcome.
>
>  Cheers
>  James
>
>
>
>
>
>  On 10 Mar 2016, at 11:35 am, Randall Gellens 
> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>  At 4:05 PM +0100 3/9/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>
>
>  Because of this normative change we need to reach out to you. If you
>  have other suggestions on what we should do please let us know!
>
>  The solution detailed by Hannes is a fine one, and is the approach 
> I'd recommend if the draft was earlier in the process.  Given the 
> late stage, my preference is to make minimal changes to the draft. 
> The minimalist approach would be the following:
>
>    (1) fix the example to use 'main-number'
>    (2) fix the xCard schema in Appendix A to add 'main-number' to 
> the list of values
>    (3) in the text in Section 4 that normatively adds 'main-number' 
> to xCard, add an explanatory note that this new value is added in 
> the xCard schema in the document but does not appear in RFC 6351, 
> and note that should additional values be needed in the future, a 
> new IANA registry of the values is recommended
>    (4) in Appendix A, add a note that the schema is a simplified 
> version of RFC 6351 with the addition of 'main-number'
>
>  These changes are a way to fix the document with the least impact. 
> There is no requirement that XML schemas in RFCs be normative since 
> the text is always normative.  There is no requirement to add an 
> IANA registry when a list of strings is expanded.  In new 
> documents, it is cleaner and better to do both, but to fix 
> late-stage bugs we can skip both.
>
>  -- 
>  Randall Gellens
>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>  The great Chinese philosopher Confucius wrote, "When words lose their
>  meaning, the universe crumbles."  Theologically and cosmologically, I'm
>  not sure about that.  I am sure that when our government is
>  characterized as "amoral, godless and secularist," our public schools
>  as "failures" and our judges as "tyrants," simplistic solutions
>  promoted by demagogues will seem appropriate.
>  -- Barry Lynn,
>   Executive Director of
>   Americans United for Separation of Church and State
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>Ecrit@ietf.org
> 
> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities.                                         --Voltaire


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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 17:56:22 +0200
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ecrit/H3gSsfHcClDczEo4Xs0vPhms1bQ>
Cc: "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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As I said, the errata simply brings the error to the attention of implemento=
rs, it doesn't change the schema. Changes to the schema require a specificat=
ion.



Sent from my iPhone

> On 6 Apr 2016, at 5:52 pm, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wro=
te:
>=20
> We were faced with a dilemma without an ideal solution: as Dan Banks point=
ed out, the schema already changed without changing the namespace, so if we'=
d have incompatibilities if we changed the namespace as well as if we didn't=
.  Given that the schema is informative, with the text being normative, we w=
ent with not changing the namespace.  People are supposed to implement based=
 on the normative text, not the schema (just as they aren't supposed to impl=
ement to examples).
>=20
> At 3:47 PM +0000 4/6/16, Keith (Nokia - GB) Drage wrote:
>=20
>> I do not think this an appropriate manner of extending a coding.
>>=20
>> Regards
>>=20
>> Keith
>>=20
>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT James Winter=
bottom
>> Sent: 06 April 2016 14:33
>> To: Randall Gellens (IETF)
>> Cc: ecrit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
>>=20
>> But it has kept the same namespace which is a clash.
>>=20
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>=20
>> On 6 Apr 2016, at 3:26 pm, "Randall Gellens (IETF)" <<mailto:rg+ietf@rand=
y.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> We did modify the schema; it contains an IANAtoken value.=20
>> Sent from my iPad
>>=20
>> On Mar 9, 2016, at 10:23 PM, James Winterbottom <<mailto:a.james.winterbo=
ttom@gmail.com>a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I totally disagree with this approach and the argument that the document i=
s far progressed not a reasonable excuse for publishing a document that has c=
lear issues.
>>=20
>> The approach below results in two different schemas with the same namespa=
ce one of which is considered normative and the other informative yet the ad=
ditional-data specification will require use of the informative schema.
>>=20
>> What is the issue with altering the schema to accommodate what we want, m=
ove the undesirable token sets into a repository, change the namespace and m=
aking it normative?
>> This ensures integrity of namespaces, it doesn't really structurally chan=
ge the document, but it does result in a much better outcome.
>>=20
>> Cheers
>> James
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10 Mar 2016, at 11:35 am, Randall Gellens <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensi=
ve.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> At 4:05 PM +0100 3/9/16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Because of this normative change we need to reach out to you. If you
>> have other suggestions on what we should do please let us know!
>>=20
>> The solution detailed by Hannes is a fine one, and is the approach I'd re=
commend if the draft was earlier in the process.  Given the late stage, my p=
reference is to make minimal changes to the draft. The minimalist approach w=
ould be the following:
>>=20
>>   (1) fix the example to use 'main-number'
>>   (2) fix the xCard schema in Appendix A to add 'main-number' to the list=
 of values
>>   (3) in the text in Section 4 that normatively adds 'main-number' to xCa=
rd, add an explanatory note that this new value is added in the xCard schema=
 in the document but does not appear in RFC 6351, and note that should addit=
ional values be needed in the future, a new IANA registry of the values is r=
ecommended
>>   (4) in Appendix A, add a note that the schema is a simplified version o=
f RFC 6351 with the addition of 'main-number'
>>=20
>> These changes are a way to fix the document with the least impact. There i=
s no requirement that XML schemas in RFCs be normative since the text is alw=
ays normative.  There is no requirement to add an IANA registry when a list o=
f strings is expanded.  In new documents, it is cleaner and better to do bot=
h, but to fix late-stage bugs we can skip both.
>>=20
>> --  Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>> The great Chinese philosopher Confucius wrote, "When words lose their
>> meaning, the universe crumbles."  Theologically and cosmologically, I'm
>> not sure about that.  I am sure that when our government is
>> characterized as "amoral, godless and secularist," our public schools
>> as "failures" and our judges as "tyrants," simplistic solutions
>> promoted by demagogues will seem appropriate.
>> -- Barry Lynn,
>>  Executive Director of
>>  Americans United for Separation of Church and State
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> <mailto:Ecrit@ietf.org>Ecrit@ietf.org
>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit>https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
> atrocities.                                         --Voltaire


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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: "EXT Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
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From nobody Wed Apr  6 09:28:52 2016
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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
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Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:26:59 +0000
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Cc: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion List <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
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I don't think so. There really is this one issue, which is actually a bit m=
ore complex in that there are regulations, but there are also local convent=
ions, which are not regulations but have similar consequences.   I will mak=
e this issue fairly prominent in the text, but I don't think it needs a who=
le section. =20

> On Apr 6, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson=
.com> wrote:
>=20
> Should there be an Applicability section covering Keith's issue? =20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drage, Keith (No=
kia - GB)
> Sent: 06 April 2016 19:03
> To: EXT Rosen, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
> Cc: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion Li=
st <ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
>=20
> Whether I speak the future or you speak the future I do not know.
>=20
> What I do know is that the attitude of regulators as to what is and what =
is not an emergency call is different round the world.=20
>=20
> So in the US, it appears that anything that might relate to someone in di=
stress is automatically an emergency call. From the UK perspective there is=
 much more of a requirement that the user is selecting an emergency call as=
 the appropriate way of summoning help. Thus burglar alarms, alarms for inf=
irm persons and so on may get handled ultimately by an emergency responder =
(or alternatively by a private provider), but they do not go through a PSAP=
 to get that response. I am sure other countries could all give a slightly =
different take.
>=20
> Anyway, I think you have agreed to address the issue. It is important in =
many countries that only genuine emergency calls (according to the local de=
finition) get made as emergency calls.=20
>=20
> Keith
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EXT Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]=20
> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:53
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion Li=
st
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
>=20
> We can do this. =20
>=20
> Our experience in the US is old news: ban them, current news: allow in sp=
ecific instances, coming news: allow as long as we have a validated source =
I expect most of the world will evolve similarly, but I wouldn=92t care to =
bet on timeframe.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <keith.drage@nokia=
.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Just having a quick look at this.
>>=20
>> Many regulatory authorities will not allow this type of call as an emerg=
ency call. In principle because they do want their PSAPs to be able to indu=
lge in session based communication.
>>=20
>> In the UK while you might have burglar alarms that go direct to the poli=
ce station, these are not classed as emergency calls, or some other answer =
point.
>>=20
>> I would suggest that the introduction section should contain a warning t=
o this effect, i.e. that such mechanisms should only be used as an emergenc=
y call where the regulatory authority permits such usage.
>>=20
>> Regards
>>=20
>> Keith
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


From nobody Wed Apr  6 09:39:14 2016
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: "EXT Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
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Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2016 16:39:04 +0000
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Cc: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion List <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
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My assumption was that it would go in the existing scope section.=20

At least to solve my problem, I don't think we need to get into too many de=
tails in the document; just a need to check whether the mechanism is consis=
tent with local regulation before it is used/deployed.

Keith



-----Original Message-----
From: EXT Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]=20
Sent: 06 April 2016 17:27
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB); Emergency Context Resolution with Internet T=
echnologies Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11

I don't think so. There really is this one issue, which is actually a bit m=
ore complex in that there are regulations, but there are also local convent=
ions, which are not regulations but have similar consequences.   I will mak=
e this issue fairly prominent in the text, but I don't think it needs a who=
le section. =20

> On Apr 6, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson=
.com> wrote:
>=20
> Should there be an Applicability section covering Keith's issue? =20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Drage, Keith (No=
kia - GB)
> Sent: 06 April 2016 19:03
> To: EXT Rosen, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
> Cc: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion Li=
st <ecrit@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
>=20
> Whether I speak the future or you speak the future I do not know.
>=20
> What I do know is that the attitude of regulators as to what is and what =
is not an emergency call is different round the world.=20
>=20
> So in the US, it appears that anything that might relate to someone in di=
stress is automatically an emergency call. From the UK perspective there is=
 much more of a requirement that the user is selecting an emergency call as=
 the appropriate way of summoning help. Thus burglar alarms, alarms for inf=
irm persons and so on may get handled ultimately by an emergency responder =
(or alternatively by a private provider), but they do not go through a PSAP=
 to get that response. I am sure other countries could all give a slightly =
different take.
>=20
> Anyway, I think you have agreed to address the issue. It is important in =
many countries that only genuine emergency calls (according to the local de=
finition) get made as emergency calls.=20
>=20
> Keith
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EXT Rosen, Brian [mailto:Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz]=20
> Sent: 05 April 2016 22:53
> To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
> Cc: Emergency Context Resolution with Internet Technologies Discussion Li=
st
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ietf-ecrit-data-only-ea-11
>=20
> We can do this. =20
>=20
> Our experience in the US is old news: ban them, current news: allow in sp=
ecific instances, coming news: allow as long as we have a validated source =
I expect most of the world will evolve similarly, but I wouldn't care to be=
t on timeframe.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <keith.drage@nokia=
.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Just having a quick look at this.
>>=20
>> Many regulatory authorities will not allow this type of call as an emerg=
ency call. In principle because they do want their PSAPs to be able to indu=
lge in session based communication.
>>=20
>> In the UK while you might have burglar alarms that go direct to the poli=
ce station, these are not classed as emergency calls, or some other answer =
point.
>>=20
>> I would suggest that the introduction section should contain a warning t=
o this effect, i.e. that such mechanisms should only be used as an emergenc=
y call where the regulatory authority permits such usage.
>>=20
>> Regards
>>=20
>> Keith
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 11:04:09 -0300
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Cc: "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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On 6 April 2016 at 12:52, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
> We were faced with a dilemma without an ideal solution: as Dan Banks pointed
> out, the schema already changed without changing the namespace, so if we'd
> have incompatibilities if we changed the namespace as well as if we didn't.
> Given that the schema is informative, with the text being normative, we went
> with not changing the namespace.  People are supposed to implement based on
> the normative text, not the schema (just as they aren't supposed to
> implement to examples).

The problem in this case is that the xCard specification IS the schema.

Let us not double-down on that error.  Yes, James is technically
right, but he is advocating log-jam.  Let's do as Randall says, but
ALSO take responsibility for our actions and commit to fixing xCard.

Caveat: If someone has an existing xCard implementation that would be
adversely affected by this, then that would invalidate this position.


From nobody Thu Apr  7 08:42:00 2016
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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At 11:04 AM -0300 4/7/16, Martin Thomson wrote:

>  On 6 April 2016 at 12:52, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>  We were faced with a dilemma without an ideal solution: as Dan Banks pointed
>>  out, the schema already changed without changing the namespace, so if we'd
>>  have incompatibilities if we changed the namespace as well as if we didn't.
>>  Given that the schema is informative, with the text being normative, we went
>>  with not changing the namespace.  People are supposed to implement based on
>>  the normative text, not the schema (just as they aren't supposed to
>>  implement to examples).
>
>  The problem in this case is that the xCard specification IS the schema.
>
>  Let us not double-down on that error.  Yes, James is technically
>  right, but he is advocating log-jam.  Let's do as Randall says, but
>  ALSO take responsibility for our actions and commit to fixing xCard.
>
>  Caveat: If someone has an existing xCard implementation that would be
>  adversely affected by this, then that would invalidate this position.

The additional-data draft has limited scope, so I think its schema 
and changes only affect implementations conformant to this document.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.


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To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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I concede.

> On 8 Apr 2016, at 1:41 am, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> =
wrote:
>=20
> At 11:04 AM -0300 4/7/16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>=20
>> On 6 April 2016 at 12:52, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> =
wrote:
>>> We were faced with a dilemma without an ideal solution: as Dan Banks =
pointed
>>> out, the schema already changed without changing the namespace, so =
if we'd
>>> have incompatibilities if we changed the namespace as well as if we =
didn't.
>>> Given that the schema is informative, with the text being normative, =
we went
>>> with not changing the namespace.  People are supposed to implement =
based on
>>> the normative text, not the schema (just as they aren't supposed to
>>> implement to examples).
>>=20
>> The problem in this case is that the xCard specification IS the =
schema.
>>=20
>> Let us not double-down on that error.  Yes, James is technically
>> right, but he is advocating log-jam.  Let's do as Randall says, but
>> ALSO take responsibility for our actions and commit to fixing xCard.
>>=20
>> Caveat: If someone has an existing xCard implementation that would be
>> adversely affected by this, then that would invalidate this position.
>=20
> The additional-data draft has limited scope, so I think its schema=20
> and changes only affect implementations conformant to this document.
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.


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From: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 22:40:21 +1000
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Cc: draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing@ietf.org, Roger Marshall <rmarshall@telecomsys.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, ecrit@ietf.org, ecrit-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing-04: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Stephen,

This document is now in AUTH48 and I wanted to make sure that issue you =
raised below was addressed to your satisfaction.

Would the following addition to the second paragraph os section 4 =
address your concern?

The request element indicates that the requestor wants the LIS to
   provide routing information based on the location of the end-device.
   If the routing request is sent with no attribute then URIs for
   urn:service:sos are returned.  If the requestor wants routing
   information for a specific service then they may include an optional
   service URN. This service MUST exist in the IANA URN Service Labels =
repository
   created by [RFC5031].  If a service is specified, and the LIS does =
not
   understand the requested service then URIs for urn:service:sos are
   returned.


Cheers
James


> On 4 Feb 2016, at 11:38 pm, Stephen Farrell =
<stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>=20
> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing-04: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
> section 4: The optional service URN seems like a thing where
> it could be dangerous to be over-general, and where being
> specific to emergency calling services would be a good
> restriction. I would not like "service=3Durn:advertising" to be
> something that'd work here. (At least not without
> consideration of how that could be used for ad blocking:-)
> The registry from RFC5031 does however seem to control that
> correctly (via standards action or ECRIT WG/IESG review) so I
> think it'd be better here to say that the service URN MUST be
> in that specific registry. If that is already in the text
> that's fine, but I didn't read it as quite having that MUST.
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Stephen,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This document is now in AUTH48 and I wanted to make sure that =
issue you raised below was addressed to your satisfaction.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Would the following =
addition to the second paragraph os section 4 address your =
concern?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The request element indicates that the requestor wants the =
LIS to</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;provide routing information =
based on the location of the end-device.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;If the routing request is sent with no attribute then URIs =
for</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;urn:service:sos are returned. =
&nbsp;If the requestor wants routing</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;information for a specific service then they may include an =
optional</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;service URN. <font =
color=3D"#e32400" class=3D""><b class=3D"">This service MUST exist in =
the IANA URN Service Labels repository</b></font></div><div =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#e32400" class=3D""><b class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;created by [RFC5031].</b></font> &nbsp;If a service is specified, =
and the LIS does not</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;understand the =
requested service then URIs for urn:service:sos are</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;returned.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers</div><div class=3D"">James</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 4 Feb 2016, at 11:38 pm, =
Stephen Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" =
class=3D"">stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">Stephen Farrell has =
entered the following ballot position for<br =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing-04: No Objection<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">When responding, please keep the subject line =
intact and reply to all<br class=3D"">email addresses included in the To =
and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br class=3D"">introductory =
paragraph, however.)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please =
refer to <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><b=
r class=3D"">for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT =
positions.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The document, =
along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing/=
</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D"">COMMENT:<br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">section 4: The =
optional service URN seems like a thing where<br class=3D"">it could be =
dangerous to be over-general, and where being<br class=3D"">specific to =
emergency calling services would be a good<br class=3D"">restriction. I =
would not like "service=3Durn:advertising" to be<br class=3D"">something =
that'd work here. (At least not without<br class=3D"">consideration of =
how that could be used for ad blocking:-)<br class=3D"">The registry =
from RFC5031 does however seem to control that<br class=3D"">correctly =
(via standards action or ECRIT WG/IESG review) so I<br class=3D"">think =
it'd be better here to say that the service URN MUST be<br class=3D"">in =
that specific registry. If that is already in the text<br =
class=3D"">that's fine, but I didn't read it as quite having that =
MUST.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_5DD3F543-1AED-4638-92F1-9789A9A7F6B6--


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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing-04: (with COMMENT)
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On 08/04/16 13:40, James Winterbottom wrote:
> Hi Stephen,
>=20
> This document is now in AUTH48 and I wanted to make sure that issue
> you raised below was addressed to your satisfaction.
>=20
> Would the following addition to the second paragraph os section 4
> address your concern?

Yes, that addresses the concern just fine.
Thanks,
S.

>=20
> The request element indicates that the requestor wants the LIS to=20
> provide routing information based on the location of the end-device.=20
> If the routing request is sent with no attribute then URIs for=20
> urn:service:sos are returned.  If the requestor wants routing=20
> information for a specific service then they may include an optional=20
> service URN. This service MUST exist in the IANA URN Service Labels
> repository created by [RFC5031].  If a service is specified, and the
> LIS does not understand the requested service then URIs for
> urn:service:sos are returned.
>=20
>=20
> Cheers James
>=20
>=20
>> On 4 Feb 2016, at 11:38 pm, Stephen Farrell
>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>=20
>> Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for=20
>> draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing-04: No Objection
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to
>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more
>> information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
>> here:=20
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ecrit-held-routing/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=

>>
>>=20
COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=

>>
>>
>>
>>=20
section 4: The optional service URN seems like a thing where
>> it could be dangerous to be over-general, and where being specific
>> to emergency calling services would be a good restriction. I would
>> not like "service=3Durn:advertising" to be something that'd work
>> here. (At least not without consideration of how that could be used
>> for ad blocking:-) The registry from RFC5031 does however seem to
>> control that correctly (via standards action or ECRIT WG/IESG
>> review) so I think it'd be better here to say that the service URN
>> MUST be in that specific registry. If that is already in the text=20
>> that's fine, but I didn't read it as quite having that MUST.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 07:40:01 +0000
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Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info Packages in I=
NFO responses. The text does recognize it is now allowed per RFC 6086, but =
gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never agreed on =
such exception, and there has never been any consulting with SIPCORE (there=
 may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall=
 can make such exception without updating RFC 6086.

My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented on this =
earlier.

Regards,

Christer

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated =
with Info Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now all=
owed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of &#8220;exception&#8221; for ecall=
 usage.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As far as I know (please correct me if I&#8217;m wro=
ng), we have never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any c=
onsulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it&#8217;s not allow=
ed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such
 exception without updating RFC 6086.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My apologies for this late comment, but I *<b>think<=
/b>* I have commented on this earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2016 08:13:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.

Regards,

Christer

From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
To: ecrit@ietf.org
Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses

Hi,

Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info Packages in I=
NFO responses. The text does recognize it is now allowed per RFC 6086, but =
gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never agreed on =
such exception, and there has never been any consulting with SIPCORE (there=
 may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall=
 can make such exception without updating RFC 6086.

My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented on this =
earlier.

Regards,

Christer

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Correction: NOT allowe=
d per RFC 6086.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Christer<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christer Holmberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 April 2016 10:40<br>
<b>To:</b> ecrit@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO respo=
nses<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated =
with Info Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now all=
owed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of &#8220;exception&#8221; for ecall=
 usage.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As far as I know (please correct me if I&#8217;m wro=
ng), we have never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any c=
onsulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it&#8217;s not allow=
ed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such
 exception without updating RFC 6086.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My apologies for this late comment, but I *<b>think<=
/b>* I have commented on this earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
Thread-Index: AdGVV1O4BtGMTehpTzqKB0stkFOWAQABOkuAAAfE9aA=
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The suggesti=
on is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO response, but as =
a generic body.

While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not how INFO =
was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed non-Info-Packages bodies in =
INFO responses was for backward compatibility - if there is a node that doe=
s not support RFC 6080 and inserts some body in a INFO response.

Regards,

Christer

From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
To: ecrit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO response=
s

Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.

Regards,

Christer

From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
To: ecrit@ietf.org<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses

Hi,

Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info Packages in I=
NFO responses. The text does recognize it is now allowed per RFC 6086, but =
gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never agreed on =
such exception, and there has never been any consulting with SIPCORE (there=
 may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall=
 can make such exception without updating RFC 6086.

My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented on this =
earlier.

Regards,

Christer

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Ok, it seems like I sh=
ould have read the paragraph to the end. The suggestion is to not send the =
data as an Info-Package in the INFO response, but as a generic body.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">While not &#8220;illeg=
al&#8221;, I think that is bad protocol design, and not how INFO was suppos=
ed to be used. The reason we allowed non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO respo=
nses was for backward compatibility - if there is
 a node that does not support RFC 6080 and inserts some body in a INFO resp=
onse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Christer<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christer Holmberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 April 2016 11:13<br>
<b>To:</b> ecrit@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO r=
esponses<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Correction: NOT allowe=
d per RFC 6086.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Christer<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> Ecrit [<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:ecrit-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christer Holmberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 13 April 2016 10:40<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org">ecrit@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO respo=
nses<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated =
with Info Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now all=
owed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of &#8220;exception&#8221; for ecall=
 usage.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As far as I know (please correct me if I&#8217;m wro=
ng), we have never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any c=
onsulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it&#8217;s not allow=
ed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such
 exception without updating RFC 6086.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My apologies for this late comment, but I *<b>think<=
/b>* I have commented on this earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christer<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_--


From nobody Thu Apr 14 00:45:49 2016
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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 00:40:38 -0700
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi Christer,

I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.  Keep in mind 
that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft is limited to 
emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where both ends expect 
certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a control block). 
There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block, and 
an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.  The alternative would be 
to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with INFO 
being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent in its 
response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO request, 
which makes things more verbose (something you specifically have been 
urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.

--Randy

At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>  Content-Language: en-US
>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>   boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_"
>
>  Hi,
>
>  Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The 
> suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO 
> response, but as a generic body.
>
>  While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not 
> how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed 
> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward 
> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080 
> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>  Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>  To: ecrit@ietf.org
>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
>
>  Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>  From: Ecrit 
> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On 
> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>  Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>  To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>  Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
>
>  Hi,
>
>  Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info 
> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now 
> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall 
> usage.
>
>  As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never 
> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting 
> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I 
> am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without 
> updating RFC 6086.
>
>  My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented 
> on this earlier.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
There are three possible parts to a date, of which at least two
must be offered: entertainment, food, and affection.  It is
customary to begin a series of dates with a great deal of
entertainment, a moderate amount of food, and the merest
suggestion of affection.  As the amount of affection increases,
the entertainment can be reduced proportionately.  When the
affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
      --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

>I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.

It is, because:

1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on
whether it=B9s sent in a request or response.

2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be
sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages
bodies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976
endpoints.

>Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft is
>limited to
>emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where both ends expect
>certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a control block).
>There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block, and
>an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.

We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don=B9t have
to be followed, just because they think it=B9s ok for their specific case -
without even consulting SIPCORE.


>The alternative would be
>to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with INFO
>being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent in its
>response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO request,
>which makes things more verbose (something you specifically have been
>urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.

I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you
can only send information in INFO requests.

Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be
sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated
with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify
that in the additional-data draft.

Regards,

Christer


>
>At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>>  Content-Language: en-US
>>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>  =20
>>boundary=3D"_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_=
"
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>>  Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The
>> suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO
>> response, but as a generic body.
>>
>>  While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not
>> how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed
>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward
>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080
>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Christer
>>
>>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer
>>Holmberg
>>  Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>  To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>responses
>>
>>  Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Christer
>>
>>  From: Ecrit=20
>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>  Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>  To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>  Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>responses
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>>  Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info
>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now
>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall
>> usage.
>>
>>  As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never
>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting
>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I
>> am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without
>> updating RFC 6086.
>>
>>  My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented
>> on this earlier.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Christer
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Ecrit mailing list
>>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>
>--=20
>Randall Gellens
>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>There are three possible parts to a date, of which at least two
>must be offered: entertainment, food, and affection.  It is
>customary to begin a series of dates with a great deal of
>entertainment, a moderate amount of food, and the merest
>suggestion of affection.  As the amount of affection increases,
>the entertainment can be reduced proportionately.  When the
>affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>      --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior


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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defined =
the way it is.

With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechanism=
 that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should not =
put information in SIP responses unless:

1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response i=
tself is not received, the information does not matter.

I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call un=
der these considerations.

In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO reques=
t and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application usin=
g the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting th=
e data in a normal SIP response.

Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, we =
need an RFC 3261 bis.

Regards

Keith

-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Christer Holmb=
erg
Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO response=
s

Hi,

>I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.

It is, because:

1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on w=
hether it=B9s sent in a request or response.

2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be se=
nt in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodies =
in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.

>Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft is=20
>limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where both=20
>ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a control=20
>block).
>There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block, and=20
>an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.

We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don=B9t have=
 to be followed, just because they think it=B9s ok for their specific case =
- without even consulting SIPCORE.


>The alternative would be
>to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with INFO=20
>being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent in its=20
>response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO request,=20
>which makes things more verbose (something you specifically have been=20
>urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.

I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you c=
an only send information in INFO requests.

Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be s=
ent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated wi=
th specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify th=
at in the additional-data draft.

Regards,

Christer


>
>At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>>  Content-Language: en-US
>>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>  =20
>>boundary=3D"_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_=
"
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>>  Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The=20
>> suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO=20
>> response, but as a generic body.
>>
>>  While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not=20
>> how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed=20
>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward=20
>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080 and=20
>> inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Christer
>>
>>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer=20
>>Holmberg
>>  Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>  To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>responses
>>
>>  Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Christer
>>
>>  From: Ecrit
>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On =20
>>Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>  Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>  To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>  Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>responses
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>>  Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info=20
>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now allowed=20
>> per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.
>>
>>  As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never=20
>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting=20
>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am=20
>> not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without updating=20
>> RFC 6086.
>>
>>  My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented=20
>> on this earlier.
>>
>>  Regards,
>>
>>  Christer
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Ecrit mailing list
>>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>
>--
>Randall Gellens
>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are three=20
>possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:=20
>entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a series=20
>of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate amount of food,=20
>and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the amount of affection=20
>increases, the entertainment can be reduced proportionately.  When the=20
>affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>      --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC5222 (4174)
Thread-Index: AQHRlz0bo59awYoslUy0BJDHh8oxlA==
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:34:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC5222 (4174)
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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 13:41:26 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

Christer asked me to comment on this. I haven't been following closely, 
so I just now reviewed the draft.

I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to 
carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to 
INFO, it is just following the standard mechanism from the 
additional-data draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and 
responses. So I find attaching to an INFO response to be no worse than 
attaching to an INVITE response.

But I share some of Keith's concern about bad protocol design. There has 
been an attempt to deal with Keith's concern about loss of data in 
responses, by the introduction of <ack>. But I think it still has some 
problems:

- Things that result in other messaging in the other direction are not 
acked. But if such a request is sent and a message of the requested type 
is then received, there is some ambiguity whether the message was the 
expected response or an unsolicited message. This could result in confusion.

- There is no specification of what to do if a message is sent and the 
expected response is not received. How long should you wait before 
concluding the message was lost? And what should then be done?

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defined the way it is.
>
> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechanism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should not put information in SIP responses unless:
>
> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>
> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call under these considerations.
>
> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO request and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting the data in a normal SIP response.
>
> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Christer Holmberg
> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
>
> Hi,
>
>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>
> It is, because:
>
> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on whether it¹s sent in a request or response.
>
> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>
>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft is
>> limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where both
>> ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a control
>> block).
>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block, and
>> an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>
> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don¹t have to be followed, just because they think it¹s ok for their specific case - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>
>
>> The alternative would be
>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with INFO
>> being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent in its
>> response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO request,
>> which makes things more verbose (something you specifically have been
>> urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>
> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you can only send information in INFO requests.
>
> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify that in the additional-data draft.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>>
>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   Content-Language: en-US
>>>   Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>
>>> boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_"
>>>
>>>   Hi,
>>>
>>>   Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The
>>> suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO
>>> response, but as a generic body.
>>>
>>>   While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not
>>> how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed
>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward
>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080 and
>>> inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   Christer
>>>
>>>   From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer
>>> Holmberg
>>>   Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>   To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>> responses
>>>
>>>   Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   Christer
>>>
>>>   From: Ecrit
>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>   Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>   To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>> responses
>>>
>>>   Hi,
>>>
>>>   Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info
>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now allowed
>>> per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.
>>>
>>>   As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never
>>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting
>>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am
>>> not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without updating
>>> RFC 6086.
>>>
>>>   My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented
>>> on this earlier.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   Christer
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>>
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are three
>> possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a series
>> of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate amount of food,
>> and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the amount of affection
>> increases, the entertainment can be reduced proportionately.  When the
>> affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>       --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>


From nobody Fri Apr 15 13:50:13 2016
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33BBF@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33EA5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <p06240610d334f8c3f456@[10.13.49.219]> <D3352642.6F00%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC2055@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <571127C6.6090802@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 20:50:11 -0000

Hi,

...

>I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to ca=
rry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO, it =
is just following the standard mechanism from the >additional-data draft fo=
r attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find attaching t=
o an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE response.

If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it should be br=
ought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086 currently says M=
UST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot override that rule).

Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care about th=
e MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???

Regards,

Christer



On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is define=
d the way it is.
>
> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechani=
sm that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should no=
t put information in SIP responses unless:
>
> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response=
 itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>
> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call =
under these considerations.
>
> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO requ=
est and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application us=
ing the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting =
the data in a normal SIP response.
>
> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, w=
e need an RFC 3261 bis.
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Christer=20
> Holmberg
> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
> responses
>
> Hi,
>
>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>
> It is, because:
>
> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on=
 whether it=B9s sent in a request or response.
>
> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be =
sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodie=
s in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>
>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft is=20
>> limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where both=20
>> ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a control=20
>> block).
>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block, and=20
>> an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>
> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don=B9t ha=
ve to be followed, just because they think it=B9s ok for their specific cas=
e - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>
>
>> The alternative would be
>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with INFO=20
>> being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent in its=20
>> response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO request,=20
>> which makes things more verbose (something you specifically have been=20
>> urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>
> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you=
 can only send information in INFO requests.
>
> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be=
 sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated =
with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify =
that in the additional-data draft.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>>
>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   Content-Language: en-US
>>>   Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>
>>> boundary=3D"_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209eric=
s_"
>>>
>>>   Hi,
>>>
>>>   Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The=20
>>> suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO=20
>>> response, but as a generic body.
>>>
>>>   While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not=20
>>> how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed=20
>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward=20
>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080=20
>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   Christer
>>>
>>>   From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer=20
>>> Holmberg
>>>   Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>   To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>> responses
>>>
>>>   Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   Christer
>>>
>>>   From: Ecrit
>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>   Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>   To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>> responses
>>>
>>>   Hi,
>>>
>>>   Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info=20
>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now=20
>>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usag=
e.
>>>
>>>   As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never=20
>>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting=20
>>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am=20
>>> not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without updating=20
>>> RFC 6086.
>>>
>>>   My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented=20
>>> on this earlier.
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   Christer
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>>
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are three=20
>> possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a=20
>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate amount=20
>> of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the amount of=20
>> affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced=20
>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer =
call it dating.
>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>       --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33BBF@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33EA5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <p06240610d334f8c3f456@[10.13.49.219]> <D3352642.6F00%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC2055@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <571127C6.6090802@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3948B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <57115FD8.10506@alum.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 17:40:40 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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On 4/15/16 4:49 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
> ...
>
>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO, it is just following the standard mechanism from the >additional-data draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find attaching to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE response.
>
> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it should be brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086 currently says MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot override that rule).
>
> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care about the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???

While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates 
rfc6086. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not 
"associated with the INFO message". It is associated with a Call-Info 
header field, as defined in the additional-info draft.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defined the way it is.
>>
>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechanism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should not put information in SIP responses unless:
>>
>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>
>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call under these considerations.
>>
>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO request and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting the data in a normal SIP response.
>>
>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Christer
>> Holmberg
>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>> responses
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>
>> It is, because:
>>
>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on whether it¹s sent in a request or response.
>>
>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>
>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft is
>>> limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where both
>>> ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a control
>>> block).
>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block, and
>>> an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>
>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don¹t have to be followed, just because they think it¹s ok for their specific case - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>
>>
>>> The alternative would be
>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with INFO
>>> being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent in its
>>> response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO request,
>>> which makes things more verbose (something you specifically have been
>>> urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>
>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you can only send information in INFO requests.
>>
>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify that in the additional-data draft.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>>
>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>    Content-Language: en-US
>>>>    Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>
>>>> boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_"
>>>>
>>>>    Hi,
>>>>
>>>>    Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end. The
>>>> suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the INFO
>>>> response, but as a generic body.
>>>>
>>>>    While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and not
>>>> how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed
>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward
>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080
>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Christer
>>>>
>>>>    From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer
>>>> Holmberg
>>>>    Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>    To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>>> responses
>>>>
>>>>    Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Christer
>>>>
>>>>    From: Ecrit
>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>    Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>    To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>>> responses
>>>>
>>>>    Hi,
>>>>
>>>>    Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info
>>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now
>>>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.
>>>>
>>>>    As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never
>>>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting
>>>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I am
>>>> not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without updating
>>>> RFC 6086.
>>>>
>>>>    My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have commented
>>>> on this earlier.
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Christer
>>>>
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Ecrit mailing list
>>>>    Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randall Gellens
>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are three
>>> possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a
>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate amount
>>> of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the amount of
>>> affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced
>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>        --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33BBF@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33EA5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <p06240610d334f8c3f456@[10.13.49.219]> <D3352642.6F00%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC2055@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <571127C6.6090802@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3948B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <57115FD8.10506@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

>>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to=
 carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO, =
it is just following the standard mechanism from the >>>additional-data dra=
ft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find attach=
ing to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE response=
.
>>
>> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it should be=
 brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086 currently say=
s MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot=20
>> override that rule).
>>
>> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care about=
 the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???
>
>While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates rfc608=
6. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not "associated w=
ith the INFO message". It is associated with a Call->Info header field, as =
defined in the additional-info draft.

So, why did we invent the Info-Package concept to begin with? The RFC even =
says that new INFO usages must use Info-Packages. What makes it ok to not u=
se them in responses?

A I said before, the only reason we allow bodies in INFO responses is for b=
ackward compatibility (previously it was allowed, or at least not forbidden=
, to include bodies in INFO responses).

Regards,

Christer




> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defin=
ed the way it is.
>>
>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechan=
ism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should n=
ot put information in SIP responses unless:
>>
>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the respons=
e itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>
>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call=
 under these considerations.
>>
>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO req=
uest and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application u=
sing the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting=
 the data in a normal SIP response.
>>
>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, =
we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Christer=20
>> Holmberg
>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>> responses
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>
>> It is, because:
>>
>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending o=
n whether it=B9s sent in a request or response.
>>
>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be=
 sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodi=
es in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>
>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft=20
>>> is limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where=20
>>> both ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a=20
>>> control block).
>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block,=20
>>> and an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>
>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don=B9t h=
ave to be followed, just because they think it=B9s ok for their specific ca=
se - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>
>>
>>> The alternative would be
>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with=20
>>> INFO being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent=20
>>> in its response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO=20
>>> request, which makes things more verbose (something you specifically=20
>>> have been urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>
>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: yo=
u can only send information in INFO requests.
>>
>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can b=
e sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated=
 with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify=
 that in the additional-data draft.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>>
>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>    Content-Language: en-US
>>>>    Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>
>>>> boundary=3D"_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209eri=
cs_"
>>>>
>>>>    Hi,
>>>>
>>>>    Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end.=20
>>>> The suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the=20
>>>> INFO response, but as a generic body.
>>>>
>>>>    While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and=20
>>>> not how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed=20
>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward=20
>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080=20
>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Christer
>>>>
>>>>    From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>    Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>    To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in=20
>>>> INFO responses
>>>>
>>>>    Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Christer
>>>>
>>>>    From: Ecrit
>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>    Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>    To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>>> responses
>>>>
>>>>    Hi,
>>>>
>>>>    Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info=20
>>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now=20
>>>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usa=
ge.
>>>>
>>>>    As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never=20
>>>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting=20
>>>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I=20
>>>> am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without=20
>>>> updating RFC 6086.
>>>>
>>>>    My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have=20
>>>> commented on this earlier.
>>>>
>>>>    Regards,
>>>>
>>>>    Christer
>>>>
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Ecrit mailing list
>>>>    Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randall Gellens
>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are=20
>>> three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a=20
>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate=20
>>> amount of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the=20
>>> amount of affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced=20
>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer=
 call it dating.
>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>        --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>


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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33BBF@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33EA5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <p06240610d334f8c3f456@[10.13.49.219]> <D3352642.6F00%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC2055@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <571127C6.6090802@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3948B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <57115FD8.10506@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3978D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 18:31:16 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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On 4/15/16 5:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
>>>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO, it is just following the standard mechanism from the >>>additional-data draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find attaching to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE response.
>>>
>>> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it should be brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086 currently says MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot
>>> override that rule).
>>>
>>> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care about the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???
>>
>> While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates rfc6086. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not "associated with the INFO message". It is associated with a Call->Info header field, as defined in the additional-info draft.
>
> So, why did we invent the Info-Package concept to begin with? The RFC even says that new INFO usages must use Info-Packages. What makes it ok to not use them in responses?
>
> A I said before, the only reason we allow bodies in INFO responses is for backward compatibility (previously it was allowed, or at least not forbidden, to include bodies in INFO responses).

I still don't see this as having anything to do with *INFO*.

This is really about body parts that are present because they are 
referenced by a header field. It isn't much different by-value PIDF-LO 
bodies referenced from geoloc headers, or STIR signatures. (AFAIK 
neither of those currently go in INFO requests or responses, but in 
principle they could.)

In the use here, the body has nothing to do with the kind of message. It 
could in principle go in any sip request or response that happens to be 
going in the desired direction at the time.

They did make a special case when they send their body in INFO 
*requests*, in that they actually define and use an INFO package for the 
purpose. So they use a different Content-Disposition when sending in 
INFO requests than they do everywhere else.

Don't get me wrong - I don't like the way this is all designed, it is an 
ugly hack, and a terrible example of tunneling another protocol over 
sip. (Using INFO packages alone, in both directions, is the recommended 
way of tunneling another protocol over SIP.) But I don't think they are 
technically violating rfc6086.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
>
>> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defined the way it is.
>>>
>>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechanism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should not put information in SIP responses unless:
>>>
>>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>>
>>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call under these considerations.
>>>
>>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO request and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting the data in a normal SIP response.
>>>
>>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Christer
>>> Holmberg
>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>> responses
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>>
>>> It is, because:
>>>
>>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on whether it¹s sent in a request or response.
>>>
>>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>>
>>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft
>>>> is limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where
>>>> both ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a
>>>> control block).
>>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block,
>>>> and an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>>
>>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don¹t have to be followed, just because they think it¹s ok for their specific case - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The alternative would be
>>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with
>>>> INFO being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent
>>>> in its response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO
>>>> request, which makes things more verbose (something you specifically
>>>> have been urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>>
>>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you can only send information in INFO requests.
>>>
>>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify that in the additional-data draft.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Christer
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>     Content-Language: en-US
>>>>>     Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>
>>>>> boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_"
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end.
>>>>> The suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the
>>>>> INFO response, but as a generic body.
>>>>>
>>>>>     While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and
>>>>> not how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed
>>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward
>>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080
>>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>     From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>     Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>>     To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>     Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in
>>>>> INFO responses
>>>>>
>>>>>     Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>     From: Ecrit
>>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>>     Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>>     To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>     Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>>>> responses
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info
>>>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now
>>>>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.
>>>>>
>>>>>     As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have never
>>>>> agreed on such exception, and there has never been any consulting
>>>>> with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not allowed). I
>>>>> am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception without
>>>>> updating RFC 6086.
>>>>>
>>>>>     My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have
>>>>> commented on this earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>     Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are
>>>> three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a
>>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate
>>>> amount of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the
>>>> amount of affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced
>>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>>         --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>
>


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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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At 1:41 PM -0400 4/15/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

>  - Things that result in other messaging in the other direction are 
> not acked. But if such a request is sent and a message of the 
> requested type is then received, there is some ambiguity whether 
> the message was the expected response or an unsolicited message. 
> This could result in confusion.

An eCall control block acknowledgment carries the CID of the data 
block being acknowledged.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
I employ no person who smokes.      --- Thomas Edison
[Handwritten note by Edison to Henry Ford, April 26, 1914


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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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At 6:31 PM -0400 4/15/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

>  a terrible example of tunneling another protocol over sip. (Using 
> INFO packages alone, in both directions, is the recommended way of 
> tunneling another protocol over SIP.)

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it.  On this specific issue, I 
see it differently: the scope of the draft is emergency calls, and 
the data being conveyed part of the emergency call.  In the typical 
case, the eCall MSD is carried in the INVITE request that sets starts 
the emergency call, and the acknowledgment is carried in the INVITE 
response.  To me, this isn't tunneling, this is an enhancement.  I 
think of tunneling as using one protocol only to carry another.  If 
we had a protocol that was unrelated to establishing SIP sessions and 
we carried that protocol in a SIP INVITE, then I'd agree that would 
be tunneling.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Nothing is as irritating as a man who chats pleasantly while he's
overcharging you.                                   --Kin Hubbard


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 11:10:58 +0000
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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33BBF@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33EA5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <p06240610d334f8c3f456@[10.13.49.219]> <D3352642.6F00%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC2055@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <571127C6.6090802@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3948B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <57115FD8.10506@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3978D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <57116BB4.4030401@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

>>>>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO =
to carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO=
, it is just following the standard mechanism from the >>>>additional-data =
draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find att=
aching to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE respo=
nse.
>>>>
>>>> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it=20
>>>> should be brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086=
 currently says MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot override that ru=
le).
>>>>
>>>> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care abo=
ut the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???
>>>
>>> While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates rfc=
6086. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not "associate=
d with the INFO message". It is associated with a Call->>Info header field,=
 as defined in the additional-info draft.
>>
>> So, why did we invent the Info-Package concept to begin with? The RFC ev=
en says that new INFO usages must use Info-Packages. What makes it ok to no=
t use them in responses?
>>
>> A I said before, the only reason we allow bodies in INFO responses is fo=
r backward compatibility (previously it was allowed, or at least not forbid=
den, to include bodies in INFO responses).
>
> I still don't see this as having anything to do with *INFO*.
>
> This is really about body parts that are present because they are referen=
ced by a header field. It isn't much different by-value PIDF-LO bodies refe=
renced from geoloc headers, or STIR signatures. (AFAIK > neither of those c=
urrently go in INFO requests or responses, but in principle they could.)
>
> In the use here, the body has nothing to do with the kind of message. It =
could in principle go in any sip request or response that happens to be goi=
ng in the desired direction at the time.

Fair enough, but I don't think that applies to the eCall usage. In eCall th=
e INFOs are explicitly used for carrying a protocol, and the message bodies=
 we are talking about are associated with that protocol. And, in INFO reque=
sts the protocol message bodies are associated with an Info-Package.

Now, if I understand you correctly, anyone could use INFO responses to carr=
y information associated with ANY Info Package - simply by using a differen=
t Content-Disposition value and calling it something else than Info-Package=
... If that's the case, we should update RFC 6086 to allow Info-Package bod=
ies also in responses, so that people don't have to do hacks to get around =
it...

>They did make a special case when they send their body in INFO *requests*,=
 in that they actually define and use an INFO package for the purpose. So t=
hey use a different Content-Disposition when >sending in INFO requests than=
 they do everywhere else.

Sure, my point is that they send the same kind of information (read: same p=
rotocol) in INFO responses. It is not geolocation information, STIR signatu=
res etc... It is information for which an Info-Package has been defined, an=
d is used in the INFO requests.

Regards,

Christer


> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
>
>> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defi=
ned the way it is.
>>>
>>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mecha=
nism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should =
not put information in SIP responses unless:
>>>
>>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the respon=
se itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>>
>>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency cal=
l under these considerations.
>>>
>>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO re=
quest and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application =
using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by puttin=
g the data in a normal SIP response.
>>>
>>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way,=
 we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT=20
>>> Christer Holmberg
>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>> responses
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>>
>>> It is, because:
>>>
>>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending =
on whether it=B9s sent in a request or response.
>>>
>>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall b=
e sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bod=
ies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>>
>>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft=20
>>>> is limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where=20
>>>> both ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a=20
>>>> control block).
>>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block,=20
>>>> and an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>>
>>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don=B9t =
have to be followed, just because they think it=B9s ok for their specific c=
ase - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The alternative would be
>>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with=20
>>>> INFO being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent=20
>>>> in its response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO=20
>>>> request, which makes things more verbose (something you=20
>>>> specifically have been urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>>
>>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: y=
ou can only send information in INFO requests.
>>>
>>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can =
be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associate=
d with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarif=
y that in the additional-data draft.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Christer
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>     Content-Language: en-US
>>>>>     Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>
>>>>> boundary=3D"_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209er=
ics_"
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end.
>>>>> The suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the=20
>>>>> INFO response, but as a generic body.
>>>>>
>>>>>     While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and=20
>>>>> not how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed=20
>>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward=20
>>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080=20
>>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>     From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>     Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>>     To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>     Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in=20
>>>>> INFO responses
>>>>>
>>>>>     Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>     From: Ecrit
>>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>>     Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>>     To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>     Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>>>> responses
>>>>>
>>>>>     Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info=20
>>>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now=20
>>>>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall us=
age.
>>>>>
>>>>>     As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have=20
>>>>> never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any=20
>>>>> consulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not=20
>>>>> allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception=20
>>>>> without updating RFC 6086.
>>>>>
>>>>>     My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have=20
>>>>> commented on this earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>     Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>     Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself onl=
y
>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are=20
>>>> three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a=20
>>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate=20
>>>> amount of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the=20
>>>> amount of affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced=20
>>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longe=
r call it dating.
>>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>>         --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>
>


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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33BBF@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F33EA5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <p06240610d334f8c3f456@[10.13.49.219]> <D3352642.6F00%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC2055@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <571127C6.6090802@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3948B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <57115FD8.10506@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F3978D@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <57116BB4.4030401@alum.mit.edu> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F4A4FD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Christer,

I think we are agreeing on the spirit of the thing, while disagreeing on 
the details. My point is that IMO they are *technically* not violating 
anything. But that is me acting as a spec-lawyer for the defense. But 
from a broader perspective this is clearly an abuse of INFO.

I recognize that they don't want to use INFO for the whole thing because 
they want to minimize latence by putting the initial information in the 
INVITE.

I think a solution might be to separate this into two clearly distinct 
parts:

1) transmit the initial information in the INVITE, using the 
additional-data mechanism.

2) define a protocol over INFO for any further information during the 
call. This can use INFO in both directions, so no need to send data in 
INFO responses.

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 4/16/16 7:10 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
>>>>>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO, it is just following the standard mechanism from the >>>>additional-data draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find attaching to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE response.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it
>>>>> should be brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086 currently says MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot override that rule).
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care about the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???
>>>>
>>>> While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates rfc6086. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not "associated with the INFO message". It is associated with a Call->>Info header field, as defined in the additional-info draft.
>>>
>>> So, why did we invent the Info-Package concept to begin with? The RFC even says that new INFO usages must use Info-Packages. What makes it ok to not use them in responses?
>>>
>>> A I said before, the only reason we allow bodies in INFO responses is for backward compatibility (previously it was allowed, or at least not forbidden, to include bodies in INFO responses).
>>
>> I still don't see this as having anything to do with *INFO*.
>>
>> This is really about body parts that are present because they are referenced by a header field. It isn't much different by-value PIDF-LO bodies referenced from geoloc headers, or STIR signatures. (AFAIK > neither of those currently go in INFO requests or responses, but in principle they could.)
>>
>> In the use here, the body has nothing to do with the kind of message. It could in principle go in any sip request or response that happens to be going in the desired direction at the time.
>
> Fair enough, but I don't think that applies to the eCall usage. In eCall the INFOs are explicitly used for carrying a protocol, and the message bodies we are talking about are associated with that protocol. And, in INFO requests the protocol message bodies are associated with an Info-Package.
>
> Now, if I understand you correctly, anyone could use INFO responses to carry information associated with ANY Info Package - simply by using a different Content-Disposition value and calling it something else than Info-Package... If that's the case, we should update RFC 6086 to allow Info-Package bodies also in responses, so that people don't have to do hacks to get around it...
>
>> They did make a special case when they send their body in INFO *requests*, in that they actually define and use an INFO package for the purpose. So they use a different Content-Disposition when >sending in INFO requests than they do everywhere else.
>
> Sure, my point is that they send the same kind of information (read: same protocol) in INFO responses. It is not geolocation information, STIR signatures etc... It is information for which an Info-Package has been defined, and is used in the INFO requests.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>>>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defined the way it is.
>>>>
>>>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechanism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should not put information in SIP responses unless:
>>>>
>>>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>>>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>>>
>>>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call under these considerations.
>>>>
>>>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO request and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting the data in a normal SIP response.
>>>>
>>>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT
>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>>>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>>> responses
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>>>
>>>> It is, because:
>>>>
>>>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on whether it¹s sent in a request or response.
>>>>
>>>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>>>
>>>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft
>>>>> is limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where
>>>>> both ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a
>>>>> control block).
>>>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block,
>>>>> and an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>>>
>>>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don¹t have to be followed, just because they think it¹s ok for their specific case - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The alternative would be
>>>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with
>>>>> INFO being the only message where emergency call data can't be sent
>>>>> in its response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a new INFO
>>>>> request, which makes things more verbose (something you
>>>>> specifically have been urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you can only send information in INFO requests.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify that in the additional-data draft.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Christer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>      Content-Language: en-US
>>>>>>      Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end.
>>>>>> The suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the
>>>>>> INFO response, but as a generic body.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design, and
>>>>>> not how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed
>>>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward
>>>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080
>>>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>      Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>>>      To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>      Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in
>>>>>> INFO responses
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      From: Ecrit
>>>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>      Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>>>      To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>      Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>>>>> responses
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with Info
>>>>>> Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is now
>>>>>> allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have
>>>>>> never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any
>>>>>> consulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not
>>>>>> allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception
>>>>>> without updating RFC 6086.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have
>>>>>> commented on this earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>>>      Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>>      Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are
>>>>> three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>>>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a
>>>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate
>>>>> amount of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the
>>>>> amount of affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced
>>>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>>>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>>>          --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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On 4/15/16 8:26 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> At 1:41 PM -0400 4/15/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>>  - Things that result in other messaging in the other direction are
>> not acked. But if such a request is sent and a message of the
>> requested type is then received, there is some ambiguity whether the
>> message was the expected response or an unsolicited message. This
>> could result in confusion.
>
> An eCall control block acknowledgment carries the CID of the data block
> being acknowledged.

I realize that. My concern was for those requests that don't get 
explicit ACK because the cause some other response. The problem being 
that there is no way to indicate that the resulting response was 
triggered by the request.

	Thanks,
	Paul


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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Hi,

> I think we are agreeing on the spirit of the thing, while disagreeing on =
the details. My point is that IMO they are *technically* not violating anyt=
hing.=20
> But that is me acting as a spec-lawyer for the defense. But from a broade=
r perspective this is clearly an abuse of INFO.

I think we would set a dangerous prejudice. If we allow this, anyone could =
transport information associated with an Info Package in an INFO response, =
simply by using a different Content-Disposition value...

Also, section 3 or RFC 6086 says:

  "3.  UAs are allowed to enable both legacy INFO usages and Info
       Package usages as part of the same invite dialog usage, but UAs
       SHALL NOT mix legacy INFO usages and Info Package usages in order
       to transport the same application level information.  If
       possible, UAs SHALL prefer the usage of an Info Package."

And, IMHO, mixing legacy INFO usage and Info Package usage for transport of=
 the same application level information is exactly what is happening in the=
 eCall case: Info Package usage in INFO requests, and legacy usage in INFO =
responses....

Also, for those of us who have "been around" for a while, we know that the =
issues with legacy INFO were discussed for years in SIPCORE (and the WGs be=
fore that), and it took quite a while to agree the Info-Package mechanism t=
oo, as some people more or less wanted to deprecate INFO...

> I recognize that they don't want to use INFO for the whole thing because =
they want to minimize latence by putting the initial information in the INV=
ITE.

I have no problem putting the initial information in the INVITE. People do =
that for other INFO usages too, e.g. DTMF.

>I think a solution might be to separate this into two clearly distinct par=
ts:
>
> 1) transmit the initial information in the INVITE, using the additional-d=
ata mechanism.

I have no problem with that.

> 2) define a protocol over INFO for any further information during the cal=
l. This can use INFO in both directions, so no need to send data in INFO re=
sponses.

I don't think the protocol as such has to change. What has to change is tha=
t the protocol will only be carried in INFO requests.

Regards,

Christer




On 4/16/16 7:10 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
>>>>>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO=
 to carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INF=
O, it is just following the standard mechanism from the >>>>additional-data=
 draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find at=
taching to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE resp=
onse.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it=20
>>>>> should be brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 608=
6 currently says MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot override that r=
ule).
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care ab=
out the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???
>>>>
>>>> While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates rf=
c6086. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not "associat=
ed with the INFO message". It is associated with a Call->>Info header field=
, as defined in the additional-info draft.
>>>
>>> So, why did we invent the Info-Package concept to begin with? The RFC e=
ven says that new INFO usages must use Info-Packages. What makes it ok to n=
ot use them in responses?
>>>
>>> A I said before, the only reason we allow bodies in INFO responses is f=
or backward compatibility (previously it was allowed, or at least not forbi=
dden, to include bodies in INFO responses).
>>
>> I still don't see this as having anything to do with *INFO*.
>>
>> This is really about body parts that are present because they are=20
>> referenced by a header field. It isn't much different by-value=20
>> PIDF-LO bodies referenced from geoloc headers, or STIR signatures.=20
>> (AFAIK > neither of those currently go in INFO requests or responses,=20
>> but in principle they could.)
>>
>> In the use here, the body has nothing to do with the kind of message. It=
 could in principle go in any sip request or response that happens to be go=
ing in the desired direction at the time.
>
> Fair enough, but I don't think that applies to the eCall usage. In eCall =
the INFOs are explicitly used for carrying a protocol, and the message bodi=
es we are talking about are associated with that protocol. And, in INFO req=
uests the protocol message bodies are associated with an Info-Package.
>
> Now, if I understand you correctly, anyone could use INFO responses to ca=
rry information associated with ANY Info Package - simply by using a differ=
ent Content-Disposition value and calling it something else than Info-Packa=
ge... If that's the case, we should update RFC 6086 to allow Info-Package b=
odies also in responses, so that people don't have to do hacks to get aroun=
d it...
>
>> They did make a special case when they send their body in INFO *requests=
*, in that they actually define and use an INFO package for the purpose. So=
 they use a different Content-Disposition when >sending in INFO requests th=
an they do everywhere else.
>
> Sure, my point is that they send the same kind of information (read: same=
 protocol) in INFO responses. It is not geolocation information, STIR signa=
tures etc... It is information for which an Info-Package has been defined, =
and is used in the INFO requests.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>>>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is def=
ined the way it is.
>>>>
>>>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mech=
anism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should=
 not put information in SIP responses unless:
>>>>
>>>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>>>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the respo=
nse itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>>>
>>>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency ca=
ll under these considerations.
>>>>
>>>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO r=
equest and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application=
 using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putti=
ng the data in a normal SIP response.
>>>>
>>>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way=
, we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT=20
>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>>>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO=20
>>>> responses
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>>>
>>>> It is, because:
>>>>
>>>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending=
 on whether it=B9s sent in a request or response.
>>>>
>>>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall =
be sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bo=
dies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>>>
>>>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft=20
>>>>> is limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where=20
>>>>> both ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a=20
>>>>> control block).
>>>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block,=20
>>>>> and an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>>>
>>>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don=B9t=
 have to be followed, just because they think it=B9s ok for their specific =
case - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The alternative would be
>>>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with=20
>>>>> INFO being the only message where emergency call data can't be=20
>>>>> sent in its response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a=20
>>>>> new INFO request, which makes things more verbose (something you=20
>>>>> specifically have been urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: =
you can only send information in INFO requests.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can=
 be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associat=
ed with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clari=
fy that in the additional-data draft.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Christer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>      Content-Language: en-US
>>>>>>      Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> boundary=3D"_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209e=
rics_"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end.
>>>>>> The suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the=20
>>>>>> INFO response, but as a generic body.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design,=20
>>>>>> and not how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed=20
>>>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward=20
>>>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080=20
>>>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20
>>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>      Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>>>      To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>      Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages=20
>>>>>> in INFO responses
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      From: Ecrit
>>>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
>>>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>      Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>>>      To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>      Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in=20
>>>>>> INFO responses
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with=20
>>>>>> Info Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is=20
>>>>>> now allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for eca=
ll usage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have=20
>>>>>> never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any=20
>>>>>> consulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not=20
>>>>>> allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception=20
>>>>>> without updating RFC 6086.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have=20
>>>>>> commented on this earlier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Christer
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>>>>      Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>>      Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself on=
ly
>>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are=20
>>>>> three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered=
:
>>>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a=20
>>>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate=20
>>>>> amount of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the=20
>>>>> amount of affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced=20
>>>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no long=
er call it dating.
>>>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>>>          --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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At 11:31 AM -0400 4/16/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

>  On 4/15/16 8:26 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>  At 1:41 PM -0400 4/15/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>
>>>   - Things that result in other messaging in the other direction are
>>>  not acked. But if such a request is sent and a message of the
>>>  requested type is then received, there is some ambiguity whether the
>>>  message was the expected response or an unsolicited message. This
>>>  could result in confusion.
>>
>>  An eCall control block acknowledgment carries the CID of the data block
>>  being acknowledged.
>
>  I realize that. My concern was for those requests that don't get 
> explicit ACK because the cause some other response. The problem 
> being that there is no way to indicate that the resulting response 
> was triggered by the request.

The only requests that don't get an explicit acknowledgment are 
requests to send a data block (e.g., another MSD).  Those are only 
sent by request (except for in the initial INVITE), so I'm not seeing 
the potential confusion.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Q:  Why do mountain climbers rope themselves together?
A:  To prevent the sensible ones from going home.


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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO responses
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On 4/16/16 12:19 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> I think we are agreeing on the spirit of the thing, while disagreeing on the details. My point is that IMO they are *technically* not violating anything.
>> But that is me acting as a spec-lawyer for the defense. But from a broader perspective this is clearly an abuse of INFO.
>
> I think we would set a dangerous prejudice. If we allow this, anyone could transport information associated with an Info Package in an INFO response, simply by using a different Content-Disposition value...
>
> Also, section 3 or RFC 6086 says:
>
>    "3.  UAs are allowed to enable both legacy INFO usages and Info
>         Package usages as part of the same invite dialog usage, but UAs
>         SHALL NOT mix legacy INFO usages and Info Package usages in order
>         to transport the same application level information.  If
>         possible, UAs SHALL prefer the usage of an Info Package."
>
> And, IMHO, mixing legacy INFO usage and Info Package usage for transport of the same application level information is exactly what is happening in the eCall case: Info Package usage in INFO requests, and legacy usage in INFO responses....
>
> Also, for those of us who have "been around" for a while, we know that the issues with legacy INFO were discussed for years in SIPCORE (and the WGs before that), and it took quite a while to agree the Info-Package mechanism too, as some people more or less wanted to deprecate INFO...
>
>> I recognize that they don't want to use INFO for the whole thing because they want to minimize latence by putting the initial information in the INVITE.
>
> I have no problem putting the initial information in the INVITE. People do that for other INFO usages too, e.g. DTMF.
>
>> I think a solution might be to separate this into two clearly distinct parts:
>>
>> 1) transmit the initial information in the INVITE, using the additional-data mechanism.
>
> I have no problem with that.
>
>> 2) define a protocol over INFO for any further information during the call. This can use INFO in both directions, so no need to send data in INFO responses.
>
> I don't think the protocol as such has to change. What has to change is that the protocol will only be carried in INFO requests.

Yes, that should work. It is what I had in mind.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
>
> On 4/16/16 7:10 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>>>>>> I am less concerned than Christer about the use of responses to INFO to carry ecall message bodies. The usage isn't specifically related to INFO, it is just following the standard mechanism from the >>>>additional-data draft for attaching data to arbitrary requests and responses. So I find attaching to an INFO response to be no worse than attaching to an INVITE response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we think it's ok to carry bodies in INFO responses, then it
>>>>>> should be brought to SIPCORE, and RFC 6086 should be updated. RFC 6086 currently says MUST NOT (the additional-data draft cannot override that rule).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, do we want to take a path where people are allowed to not care about the MUSTs, MUST NOTs etc whenever they think it won't matter???
>>>>>
>>>>> While I'm not fond of the approach taken, I don't think it violates rfc6086. When a body is added to an INFO response, that body is not "associated with the INFO message". It is associated with a Call->>Info header field, as defined in the additional-info draft.
>>>>
>>>> So, why did we invent the Info-Package concept to begin with? The RFC even says that new INFO usages must use Info-Packages. What makes it ok to not use them in responses?
>>>>
>>>> A I said before, the only reason we allow bodies in INFO responses is for backward compatibility (previously it was allowed, or at least not forbidden, to include bodies in INFO responses).
>>>
>>> I still don't see this as having anything to do with *INFO*.
>>>
>>> This is really about body parts that are present because they are
>>> referenced by a header field. It isn't much different by-value
>>> PIDF-LO bodies referenced from geoloc headers, or STIR signatures.
>>> (AFAIK > neither of those currently go in INFO requests or responses,
>>> but in principle they could.)
>>>
>>> In the use here, the body has nothing to do with the kind of message. It could in principle go in any sip request or response that happens to be going in the desired direction at the time.
>>
>> Fair enough, but I don't think that applies to the eCall usage. In eCall the INFOs are explicitly used for carrying a protocol, and the message bodies we are talking about are associated with that protocol. And, in INFO requests the protocol message bodies are associated with an Info-Package.
>>
>> Now, if I understand you correctly, anyone could use INFO responses to carry information associated with ANY Info Package - simply by using a different Content-Disposition value and calling it something else than Info-Package... If that's the case, we should update RFC 6086 to allow Info-Package bodies also in responses, so that people don't have to do hacks to get around it...
>>
>>> They did make a special case when they send their body in INFO *requests*, in that they actually define and use an INFO package for the purpose. So they use a different Content-Disposition when >sending in INFO requests than they do everywhere else.
>>
>> Sure, my point is that they send the same kind of information (read: same protocol) in INFO responses. It is not geolocation information, STIR signatures etc... It is information for which an Info-Package has been defined, and is used in the INFO requests.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Christer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 4/14/16 5:22 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) wrote:
>>>>> It is bad protocol design for exactly the same reason that INFO is defined the way it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> With SIP, UDP is allowed, and responses form part of the protocol mechanism that confirms a piece of data has been received. Therefore one should not put information in SIP responses unless:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1)	One is prepared to lose it because it did not matter anyway.
>>>>> 2)	Its usage is tied to receiving the response, therefore if the response itself is not received, the information does not matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not think we should be treating data relating to the emergency call under these considerations.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the INFO mechanism, the response to INFO indicates that that INFO request and its contents, had been received and delivered to the application using the INFO mechanism. You have no way of doing the equivalent by putting the data in a normal SIP response.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now of course, one could deprecate UDP, but if you want to go that way, we need an RFC 3261 bis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Keith
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT
>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>> Sent: 14 April 2016 09:00
>>>>> To: Randall Gellens; ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in INFO
>>>>> responses
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see why you think it's bad protocol design.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is, because:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) You want to use different mechanisms for sending the body depending on whether it¹s sent in a request or response.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) When we did RFC 6086, we explicitly decided that INFO bodies shall be sent in requests only. The ONLY reason for allowing non-Info-Packages bodies in a response was for backward compatibility with RFC 2976 endpoints.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Keep in mind that, unlike with INFO packages in general, the draft
>>>>>> is limited to emergency calls between a vehicle and a PSAP, where
>>>>>> both ends expect certain specific body parts (i.e., an MSG and a
>>>>>> control block).
>>>>>> There's no harm in using an INFO request to send a control block,
>>>>>> and an INFO response to send the MSD in reply.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can not allow specific INFO usages to decide that the rules don¹t have to be followed, just because they think it¹s ok for their specific case - without even consulting SIPCORE.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The alternative would be
>>>>>> to make INFO an exception to the additional-data mechanism, with
>>>>>> INFO being the only message where emergency call data can't be
>>>>>> sent in its response.  This would force a reply to be sent in a
>>>>>> new INFO request, which makes things more verbose (something you
>>>>>> specifically have been urging us to avoid doing) for no benefit.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sure I indicated that earlier, when the mechanism was discussed: you can only send information in INFO requests.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the statement in the additional-data draft, saying that data can be sent in "any SIP request and response", can NOT override rules associated with specific requests and responses. It would probably be good to clarify that in the additional-data draft.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 11:59 AM +0000 4/13/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Content-Language: en-US
>>>>>>>       Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F34525ESESSMB209erics_"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Ok, it seems like I should have read the paragraph to the end.
>>>>>>> The suggestion is to not send the data as an Info-Package in the
>>>>>>> INFO response, but as a generic body.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       While not "illegal", I think that is bad protocol design,
>>>>>>> and not how INFO was supposed to be used. The reason we allowed
>>>>>>> non-Info-Packages bodies in INFO responses was for backward
>>>>>>> compatibility - if there is a node that does not support RFC 6080
>>>>>>> and inserts some body in a INFO response.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Christer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>>       Sent: 13 April 2016 11:13
>>>>>>>       To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>>       Subject: Re: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages
>>>>>>> in INFO responses
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Correction: NOT allowed per RFC 6086.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Christer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       From: Ecrit
>>>>>>> [<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>>       Sent: 13 April 2016 10:40
>>>>>>>       To: <mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>>       Subject: [Ecrit] draft-ecall: sending of Info Packages in
>>>>>>> INFO responses
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Section 9.2 of draft-ecall allows bodies associated with
>>>>>>> Info Packages in INFO responses. The text does recognize it is
>>>>>>> now allowed per RFC 6086, but gives some kind of "exception" for ecall usage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), we have
>>>>>>> never agreed on such exception, and there has never been any
>>>>>>> consulting with SIPCORE (there may be a good reason why it's not
>>>>>>> allowed). I am not even sure draft-ecall can make such exception
>>>>>>> without updating RFC 6086.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       My apologies for this late comment, but I *think* I have
>>>>>>> commented on this earlier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       Christer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>       Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>>>       Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There are
>>>>>> three possible parts to a date, of which at least two must be offered:
>>>>>> entertainment, food, and affection.  It is customary to begin a
>>>>>> series of dates with a great deal of entertainment, a moderate
>>>>>> amount of food, and the merest suggestion of affection.  As the
>>>>>> amount of affection increases, the entertainment can be reduced
>>>>>> proportionately.  When the affection IS the entertainment, we no longer call it dating.
>>>>>> Under no circumstances can the food be omitted.
>>>>>>           --Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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References: <56E03BA4.5080104@gmx.net> <p06240600d3066fa11e71@121.160.49.48> <EDC3E17A-49B1-48DF-BD7F-66E7E2EB9650@gmail.com> <D5F7FF7C-154D-4B51-8B41-AB5EE1BBAA39@randy.pensive.org> <5D0C513C-3D10-4AC1-B824-907A749C59FC@gmail.com> <p06240602d32ae0740069@dhcp-93ce.meeting.ietf.org> <CABkgnnUyVdD=HdLufu489kO9j_t_7d70iHBjZ4-C-6V_Aj3mDw@mail.gmail.com> <p06240603d32c2fcdf786@dhcp-93ce.meeting.ietf.org> <C6E2151F-948D-4C15-AC67-FB3165C7AD18@gmail.com>
To: James Winterbottom <a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Additional Data Draft (again)
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Based on this list discussion the document has been unstuck in the RFC =
Editor=E2=80=99s queue.

Thanks all.

Alissa

> On Apr 7, 2016, at 8:50 AM, James Winterbottom =
<a.james.winterbottom@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I concede.
>=20
>> On 8 Apr 2016, at 1:41 am, Randall Gellens =
<rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> At 11:04 AM -0300 4/7/16, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 6 April 2016 at 12:52, Randall Gellens =
<rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>> We were faced with a dilemma without an ideal solution: as Dan =
Banks pointed
>>>> out, the schema already changed without changing the namespace, so =
if we'd
>>>> have incompatibilities if we changed the namespace as well as if we =
didn't.
>>>> Given that the schema is informative, with the text being =
normative, we went
>>>> with not changing the namespace.  People are supposed to implement =
based on
>>>> the normative text, not the schema (just as they aren't supposed to
>>>> implement to examples).
>>>=20
>>> The problem in this case is that the xCard specification IS the =
schema.
>>>=20
>>> Let us not double-down on that error.  Yes, James is technically
>>> right, but he is advocating log-jam.  Let's do as Randall says, but
>>> ALSO take responsibility for our actions and commit to fixing xCard.
>>>=20
>>> Caveat: If someone has an existing xCard implementation that would =
be
>>> adversely affected by this, then that would invalidate this =
position.
>>=20
>> The additional-data draft has limited scope, so I think its schema=20
>> and changes only affect implementations conformant to this document.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>> A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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To: "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in the roo=
m & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to progress both ID'=
s, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 & draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submi=
ssion in accordance with our work group milestones.

The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for a sync w=
ith other SDO progress right before final approval.

Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IESG.

Roger Marshall
Marc Linsner
ECRIT chairs



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect t=
he agreement in the room &amp; the chairs action to confirm consensus on th=
e list to progress both ID&#8217;s, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &amp; dra=
ft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance
 with our work group milestones.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The agreement as documented was with a caveat of ask=
ing the AD for a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please confirm your support on moving these two forw=
ard/submission to IESG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Roger Marshall<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marc Linsner<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ECRIT chairs<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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--_000_D33E4A4E74B5christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO responses (which =
is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.

Regards,

Christer


From: Ecrit <ecrit-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>> on beha=
lf of Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com<mailto:Roger.Marshall@c=
omtechtel.com>>
Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
To: "ecrit@ietf.org<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>" <ecrit@ietf.org<mailto:ecrit@ie=
tf.org>>
Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>>
Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and dra=
ft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in the roo=
m & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to progress both ID=
=92s, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 & draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG su=
bmission in accordance with our work group milestones.

The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for a sync w=
ith other SDO progress right before final approval.

Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IESG.

Roger Marshall
Marc Linsner
ECRIT chairs



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--_000_D33E4A4E74B5christerholmbergericssoncom_
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e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO responses (w=
hich is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Ecrit &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:e=
crit-bounces@ietf.org">ecrit-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Roger Ma=
rshall &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com">Roger.Marshall@=
comtechtel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:=
13<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@i=
etf.org">ecrit@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ecrit@ietf.org">ecr=
it@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>Ben Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[Ecrit] since BA, confirmi=
ng draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect t=
he agreement in the room &amp; the chairs action to confirm consensus on th=
e list to progress both ID=92s, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &amp; draft-i=
etf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance
 with our work group milestones.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The agreement as documented was with a caveat of ask=
ing the AD for a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please confirm your support on moving these two forw=
ard/submission to IESG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Roger Marshall<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marc Linsner<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ECRIT chairs<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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--_000_D33E4A4E74B5christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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I'm afraid I cannot support ecall moving forward because of thetotal lack o=
f synchronization with the other SDO. It is becoming more and more apparent=
 that there are divergences with the current 3GPP thinking.

Further, I cannot support carcrash moving forward for the same reason unles=
s it uses different subtypes to ecall. Please also note that if these diffe=
rent values are used in 3GPP support of emergency call, they will be routed=
 to the default emergency PSAP in accordance with 3GPP specifications.

Keith

From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Roger Marshall
Sent: 21 April 2016 05:13
To: ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and dra=
ft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in the roo=
m & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to progress both ID'=
s, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 & draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submi=
ssion in accordance with our work group milestones.

The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for a sync w=
ith other SDO progress right before final approval.

Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IESG.

Roger Marshall
Marc Linsner
ECRIT chairs



NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain informa=
tion which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client privileged and/or =
controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations and may be restricted fro=
m disclosure by applicable State and Federal law. Nothing in this email sha=
ll create any legal binding agreement between the parties unless expressly =
stated herein and provided by an authorized representative of Comtech Telec=
ommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipi=
ent of this message, be advised that any dissemination, distribution, or us=
e of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you received t=
his message in error, please notify us immediately by return email and perm=
anently delete all copies of the original email and any attached documentat=
ion from any computer or other media.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m afraid I can=
not support ecall moving forward because of thetotal lack of synchronizatio=
n with the other SDO. It is becoming more and more apparent that there are =
divergences with the current 3GPP thinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Further, I cannot supp=
ort carcrash moving forward for the same reason unless it uses different su=
btypes to ecall. Please also note that if these different values are used i=
n 3GPP support of emergency call, they
 will be routed to the default emergency PSAP in accordance with 3GPP speci=
fications.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Keith<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Ecrit [m=
ailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>EXT Roger Marshall<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 21 April 2016 05:13<br>
<b>To:</b> ecrit@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 =
and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect t=
he agreement in the room &amp; the chairs action to confirm consensus on th=
e list to progress both ID&#8217;s, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &amp; dra=
ft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance
 with our work group milestones.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The agreement as documented was with a caveat of ask=
ing the AD for a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please confirm your support on moving these two forw=
ard/submission to IESG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Roger Marshall<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marc Linsner<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ECRIT chairs<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;color:black">NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This em=
ail, including attachments, may contain information which is confidential, =
proprietary, attorney-client privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export=
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 from disclosure by applicable State and Federal law. Nothing in this email=
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sly stated herein and provided by an authorized representative of Comtech T=
elecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries.
 If you are not the intended recipient of this message, be advised that any=
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At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>  I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO responses 
> (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.

The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there 
would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft 
registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft 
is using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The 
debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which 
use INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which 
carries information intrinsic to the emergency call.


>  From: Ecrit <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org> 
> on behalf of Roger Marshall 
> <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>  Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>  To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org" 
> <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>  Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>  Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 
> and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>
>  During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in 
> the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to 
> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 & 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with 
> our work group milestones.
>
>
>
>  The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for 
> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>
>
>
>  Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IESG.
>
>
>
>  Roger Marshall
>
>  Marc Linsner
>
>  ECRIT chairs
>
>
>
>
>
>  NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain 
> information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client 
> privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations 
> and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable State and 
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>
>  _______________________________________________
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>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
It wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought.
                                           --Wilkes, 1949


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hi,

Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated rules
are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.

Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a tunnel
mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just some data
sent between two application endpoints.

Regards,

Christer




On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:

>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>>  I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO responses
>> (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in
>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>
>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there
>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft
>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft
>is using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The
>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which
>use INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which
>carries information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>
>
>>  From: Ecrit <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>> on behalf of Roger Marshall
>> <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>  Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>  To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>> <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>  Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>  Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07
>> and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>
>>
>>  During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in
>> the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to
>> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with
>> our work group milestones.
>>
>>
>>
>>  The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for
>> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to
>>IESG.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Roger Marshall
>>
>>  Marc Linsner
>>
>>  ECRIT chairs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain
>> information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client
>> privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations
>> and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable State and
>> Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal binding
>> agreement between the parties unless expressly stated herein and
>> provided by an authorized representative of Comtech
>> Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the
>> intended recipient of this message, be advised that any
>> dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message
>> is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error,
>> please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete
>> all copies of the original email and any attached documentation
>> from any computer or other media.
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Ecrit mailing list
>>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>
>--=20
>Randall Gellens
>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>It wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>                                           --Wilkes, 1949


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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:50:07 -0700
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>, EXT Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hi Keith,

At 1:23 PM +0000 4/21/16, Keith (Nokia - GB) Drage wrote:

>  I'm afraid I cannot support ecall moving forward because of 
> thetotal lack of synchronization with the other SDO. It is becoming 
> more and more apparent that there are divergences with the current 
> 3GPP thinking.

Can you give more details and perhaps an example of these 
divergences?  I am not aware of any, and neither are our people in 
3GPP.

>   Further, I cannot support carcrash moving forward for the same 
> reason unless it uses different subtypes to ecall. Please also note 
> that if these different values are used in 3GPP support of 
> emergency call, they will be routed to the default emergency PSAP 
> in accordance with 3GPP specifications.

The two drafts use the same SOS child service URN at your insistence. 
Originally, these were two different child URNs, and you argued at 
that time that the call set-up must be identical in the two drafts. 
Your argument was accepted, so the drafts were modified so that 
car-crash inherits the call set-up and other technical aspects from 
ecall, with the only technical difference being the mandatory crash 
data set (MSD in ecall and VEDS in car-crash).

--Randy


>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Roger Marshall
>  Sent: 21 April 2016 05:13
>  To: ecrit@ietf.org
>  Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>  Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 
> and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>  During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in 
> the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to 
> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 & 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with 
> our work group milestones.
>
>  The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for 
> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>
>  Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IESG.
>
>  Roger Marshall
>  Marc Linsner
>  ECRIT chairs
>
>
>  NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain 
> information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client 
> privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations 
> and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable State and 
> Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal binding 
> agreement between the parties unless expressly stated herein and 
> provided by an authorized representative of Comtech 
> Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the 
> intended recipient of this message, be advised that any 
> dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message 
> is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, 
> please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete 
> all copies of the original email and any attached documentation 
> from any computer or other media.
>
>  _______________________________________________
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>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
    Freddie Laker
    May be at peace with his Maker.
    But he is persona non grata
    With IATA.
            --HRH Duke of Edinburgh


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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Roger Marshall	<Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hi Christer,

At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>  Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated rules
>  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.

This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this 
draft is different from the general case where INFO is used as a 
tunnel mechanism for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as 
transport.  In the case here, we're using SIP as a way to establish 
emergency calls, and to transport small amounts of data that are 
intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.

--Randy

>
>  Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a tunnel
>  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just some data
>  sent between two application endpoints.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>
>
>
>  On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO responses
>>>  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in
>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>
>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there
>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft
>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft
>>is using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The
>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which
>>use INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which
>>carries information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>
>>
>>>   From: Ecrit <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>  on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>  <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>   Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>   To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>  <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>   Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07
>>>  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>>
>>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in
>>>  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to
>>>  progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with
>>>  our work group milestones.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for
>>>  a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to
>>>IESG.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Roger Marshall
>>>
>>>   Marc Linsner
>>>
>>>   ECRIT chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain
>>>  information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client
>>>  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations
>>>  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable State and
>>>  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal binding
>>>  agreement between the parties unless expressly stated herein and
>>>  provided by an authorized representative of Comtech
>>>  Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the
>>>  intended recipient of this message, be advised that any
>>>  dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message
>>>  is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error,
>>>  please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete
>>>  all copies of the original email and any attached documentation
>>>  from any computer or other media.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   >
>>
>>--
>>Randall Gellens
>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>It wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>                                            --Wilkes, 1949


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Maybe Computer Science should be in the College of Theology.  -
                                              -R. S. Barton


From nobody Thu Apr 21 08:01:17 2016
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From: Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>, EXT Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hello,

3GPP SA2 (architecture) did not decide to endorse the draft-ietf-ecrit-ecal=
l yet.
3GPP CT1 (protocol) decided to refer to section 14.1 of draft-ietf-ecrit-ec=
all for purpose of URNs referencing. Rest of the draft is FFS subject to 3G=
PP SA2 decisions.

So, IMO, Keith has a point on lack of synchronization of the solutions betw=
een 3GPP and ECRIT on draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.

Kind regards

Ivo Sedlacek

-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall Gellens
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:50 PM
To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB); EXT Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

Hi Keith,

At 1:23 PM +0000 4/21/16, Keith (Nokia - GB) Drage wrote:

>  I'm afraid I cannot support ecall moving forward because of thetotal=20
> lack of synchronization with the other SDO. It is becoming more and=20
> more apparent that there are divergences with the current 3GPP=20
> thinking.

Can you give more details and perhaps an example of these divergences?  I a=
m not aware of any, and neither are our people in 3GPP.

>   Further, I cannot support carcrash moving forward for the same=20
> reason unless it uses different subtypes to ecall. Please also note=20
> that if these different values are used in 3GPP support of emergency=20
> call, they will be routed to the default emergency PSAP in accordance=20
> with 3GPP specifications.

The two drafts use the same SOS child service URN at your insistence.=20
Originally, these were two different child URNs, and you argued at that tim=
e that the call set-up must be identical in the two drafts.=20
Your argument was accepted, so the drafts were modified so that car-crash i=
nherits the call set-up and other technical aspects from ecall, with the on=
ly technical difference being the mandatory crash data set (MSD in ecall an=
d VEDS in car-crash).

--Randy


>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Roger=20
> Marshall
>  Sent: 21 April 2016 05:13
>  To: ecrit@ietf.org
>  Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>  Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07=20
> and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>  During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in=20
> the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to=20
> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with our=20
> work group milestones.
>
>  The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for a=20
> sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>
>  Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IE=
SG.
>
>  Roger Marshall
>  Marc Linsner
>  ECRIT chairs
>
>
>  NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain=20
> information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client=20
> privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations=20
> and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable State and Federal=20
> law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal binding agreement=20
> between the parties unless expressly stated herein and provided by an=20
> authorized representative of Comtech Telecommunications Corp. or its=20
> subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient of this message,=20
> be advised that any dissemination, distribution, or use of the=20
> contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you received this=20
> message in error, please notify us immediately by return email and=20
> permanently delete all copies of the original email and any attached=20
> documentation from any computer or other media.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
    Freddie Laker
    May be at peace with his Maker.
    But he is persona non grata
    With IATA.
            --HRH Duke of Edinburgh

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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From: Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hello,

1) IMO, either RFC6086 should be used as intended in RFC6086, or RFC6086 sh=
ould not be used. Else, everyone trying to use RFC6086 can claim his contex=
t is different.

2) on "to transport small amounts of data that are intrinsic to the call" -=
 how can we be sure that the amounts of data that are intrinsic to the call=
 will stay "small" forever? The need on data transfers tend to grown, and t=
he cars are getting more and more intelligent.

Kind regards

Ivo Sedlacek

-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall Gellens
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:57 PM
To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

Hi Christer,

At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>  Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated=20
> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.

This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this draft i=
s different from the general case where INFO is used as a tunnel mechanism =
for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as transport.  In the case here=
, we're using SIP as a way to establish emergency calls, and to transport s=
mall amounts of data that are intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.

--Randy

>
>  Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a=20
> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just=20
> some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>
>
>
>  On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO=20
>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in =20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>
>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there=20
>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft=20
>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft is=20
>>using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The=20
>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which use=20
>>INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which carries=20
>>information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>
>>
>>>   From: Ecrit=20
>>> <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>  on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>  <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>   Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>   To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>  <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>   Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming=20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>>
>>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement=20
>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to =20
>>> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with =20
>>> our work group milestones.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for =20
>>> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission=20
>>>to IESG.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Roger Marshall
>>>
>>>   Marc Linsner
>>>
>>>   ECRIT chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may=20
>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,=20
>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws=20
>>> and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable=20
>>> State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal=20
>>> binding  agreement between the parties unless expressly stated=20
>>> herein and  provided by an authorized representative of Comtech =20
>>> Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the =20
>>> intended recipient of this message, be advised that any =20
>>> dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message =20
>>> is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, =20
>>> please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete =20
>>> all copies of the original email and any attached documentation =20
>>> from any computer or other media.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   >
>>
>>--
>>Randall Gellens
>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as=20
>>easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>                                            --Wilkes, 1949


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer Scienc=
e should be in the College of Theology.  -
                                              -R. S. Barton

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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To: Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)"	<keith.drage@nokia.com>, EXT Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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The fact that 3GPP SA2 and CT1 have not yet decided how to proceed is 
not evidence of divergences.

At 3:00 PM +0000 4/21/16, Ivo Sedlacek wrote:

>  Hello,
>
>  3GPP SA2 (architecture) did not decide to endorse the 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall yet.
>  3GPP CT1 (protocol) decided to refer to section 14.1 of 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall for purpose of URNs referencing. Rest of the 
> draft is FFS subject to 3GPP SA2 decisions.
>
>  So, IMO, Keith has a point on lack of synchronization of the 
> solutions between 3GPP and ECRIT on draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>
>  Kind regards
>
>  Ivo Sedlacek
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall Gellens
>  Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:50 PM
>  To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB); EXT Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
>  Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>  Hi Keith,
>
>  At 1:23 PM +0000 4/21/16, Keith (Nokia - GB) Drage wrote:
>
>>   I'm afraid I cannot support ecall moving forward because of thetotal
>>  lack of synchronization with the other SDO. It is becoming more and
>   > more apparent that there are divergences with the current 3GPP
>>  thinking.
>
>  Can you give more details and perhaps an example of these 
> divergences?  I am not aware of any, and neither are our people in 
> 3GPP.
>
>>    Further, I cannot support carcrash moving forward for the same
>>  reason unless it uses different subtypes to ecall. Please also note
>>  that if these different values are used in 3GPP support of emergency
>>  call, they will be routed to the default emergency PSAP in accordance
>>  with 3GPP specifications.
>
>  The two drafts use the same SOS child service URN at your insistence.
>  Originally, these were two different child URNs, and you argued at 
> that time that the call set-up must be identical in the two drafts.
>  Your argument was accepted, so the drafts were modified so that 
> car-crash inherits the call set-up and other technical aspects from 
> ecall, with the only technical difference being the mandatory crash 
> data set (MSD in ecall and VEDS in car-crash).
>
>  --Randy
>
>
>>   From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Roger
>>  Marshall
>>   Sent: 21 April 2016 05:13
>>   To: ecrit@ietf.org
>>   Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07
>>  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>
>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in
>>  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to
>>  progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with our
>>  work group milestones.
>>
>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for a
>>  sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>
>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IESG.
>>
>>   Roger Marshall
>>   Marc Linsner
>>   ECRIT chairs
>>
>>
>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain
>>  information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client
>>  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws and regulations
>>  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable State and Federal
>>  law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal binding agreement
>>  between the parties unless expressly stated herein and provided by an
>>  authorized representative of Comtech Telecommunications Corp. or its
>>  subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient of this message,
>>  be advised that any dissemination, distribution, or use of the
>>  contents of this message is strictly prohibited. If you received this
>>  message in error, please notify us immediately by return email and
>   > permanently delete all copies of the original email and any attached
>>  documentation from any computer or other media.
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>
>  --
>  Randall Gellens
>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>      Freddie Laker
>      May be at peace with his Maker.
>      But he is persona non grata
>      With IATA.
>              --HRH Duke of Edinburgh
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Walter Benjamin's concept of "aura" in simple terms means that
something assumes a particularly intense and melancholy power
to fascinate at the moment of its disappearance.
                --Joachim Kalka, from "Money As We Knew It."


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To: Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>, Christer Holmberg	<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roger Marshall	<Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hi Ivo,

We are dealing with a very limited set of data now.  For this draft, 
that's all we are dealing with.  It is possible that in the future, 
new uses will appear that require transmitting larger sets of data, 
and if that happens, I'd be happy to develop an extension to the 
additional-data draft that provides a third mechanism for 
transmitting data, so that in addition to the current mechanisms of 
by-value in the SIP signaling and by-reference using HTTPS, we'd have 
a third mechanism using a separate media channel.

At 3:05 PM +0000 4/21/16, Ivo Sedlacek wrote:

>  Hello,
>
>  1) IMO, either RFC6086 should be used as intended in RFC6086, or 
> RFC6086 should not be used. Else, everyone trying to use RFC6086 
> can claim his context is different.
>
>  2) on "to transport small amounts of data that are intrinsic to the 
> call" - how can we be sure that the amounts of data that are 
> intrinsic to the call will stay "small" forever? The need on data 
> transfers tend to grown, and the cars are getting more and more 
> intelligent.
>
>  Kind regards
>
>  Ivo Sedlacek
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall Gellens
>  Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:57 PM
>  To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
>  Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming 
> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>  Hi Christer,
>
>  At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>>   Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated
>>  rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.
>
>  This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this 
> draft is different from the general case where INFO is used as a 
> tunnel mechanism for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as 
> transport.  In the case here, we're using SIP as a way to establish 
> emergency calls, and to transport small amounts of data that are 
> intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.
>
>  --Randy
>
>>
>>   Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a
>>  tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just
>>  some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>>
>>   Regards,
>>
>>   Christer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>
>>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>    I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO
>>>>  responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in 
>>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>>
>>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there
>>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft
>>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft is
>>>using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The
>>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which use
>>>INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which carries
>>>information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>>
>>>
>>>>    From: Ecrit
>>>>  <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>>   on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>>   <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>>    Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>>    To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>>   <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>>    Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>>    Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement
>>>>  in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to 
>>>>  progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>   >>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with 
>>>>  our work group milestones.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for 
>>>>  a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission
>>>>to IESG.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Roger Marshall
>>>>
>>>>    Marc Linsner
>>>>
>>>>    ECRIT chairs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may
>>>>  contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,
>>>>  attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws
>>>>  and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable
>>>>  State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal
>>>>  binding  agreement between the parties unless expressly stated
>>>>  herein and  provided by an authorized representative of Comtech 
>>>>  Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the 
>>>>  intended recipient of this message, be advised that any 
>>>>  dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message 
>>>>  is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, 
>>>>  please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete 
>>>>  all copies of the original email and any attached documentation 
>>>>  from any computer or other media.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Ecrit mailing list
>>>>    Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>    >
>>>
>>>--
>>>Randall Gellens
>>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as
>>>easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>>                                             --Wilkes, 1949
>
>
>  --
>  Randall Gellens
>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe 
> Computer Science should be in the College of Theology.  -
>                                                -R. S. Barton
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
A successful tool is used to do something undreamed of by its author.
                                                           --Johnson


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
Thread-Index: AQHRm94d63LXPbhw2UmX/aCjHkVfR5+Ul9qg
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:10:55 +0000
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]>
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ecrit/ZPAoLNUDfXSG0MYqOruudZL4wCE>
Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hi,

>>  Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated=20
>> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.
>
>This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this draft =
is different from the general case where INFO is used as a tunnel mechanism=
 for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as >transport.  In the case he=
re, we're using SIP as a way to establish emergency calls, and to transport=
 small amounts of data that are intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.

It is still transparent data to the SIP session. The receiving SIP stack wi=
ll receive the INFO, send 200, and send the content to the associated appli=
cation without processing the content (the receiver will only make sure the=
 receiver has indicated support of the associated Info Package).

And, even if you think the context is different, I don't see how that justi=
fies anything. But, again, if you think it does, bring it to SIPCORE. RFC 6=
086 currently says nothing about different contexts.

Regards,

Christer



>  Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a=20
> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just=20
> some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>
>
>
>  On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO=20
>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in =20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>
>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there=20
>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft=20
>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft is=20
>>using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The=20
>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which use=20
>>INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which carries=20
>>information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>
>>
>>>   From: Ecrit=20
>>> <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>  on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>  <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>   Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>   To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>  <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>   Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming=20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>>
>>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement=20
>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to =20
>>> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with =20
>>> our work group milestones.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for =20
>>> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission=20
>>>to IESG.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Roger Marshall
>>>
>>>   Marc Linsner
>>>
>>>   ECRIT chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may=20
>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,=20
>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws=20
>>> and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable=20
>>> State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal=20
>>> binding  agreement between the parties unless expressly stated=20
>>> herein and  provided by an authorized representative of Comtech =20
>>> Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the =20
>>> intended recipient of this message, be advised that any =20
>>> dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message =20
>>> is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, =20
>>> please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete =20
>>> all copies of the original email and any attached documentation =20
>>> from any computer or other media.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   >
>>
>>--
>>Randall Gellens
>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as=20
>>easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>                                            --Wilkes, 1949


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer Scienc=
e should be in the College of Theology.  -
                                              -R. S. Barton


From nobody Thu Apr 21 09:28:11 2016
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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As far as I am aware, both SIP, now deceased, and SIPCORE, have made no gen=
eral provision of the use of SIP as a transport, outside the use of INFO.

Specific mechanisms do exist such as MESSAGE, PUBLISH and SUBSCRIBE NOTIFY.

Moreover there is a long history of the use of SIP as a transport mechanism=
 which is why I believe SIP/SIPCORE focused on INFO as being the correct me=
ans of providing this. That is INFO without miscellaneous extensions. There=
 was IETF consensus on moving forward with INFO in the form that it is in, =
and one should stick within those rules.

Regards

Keith Drage

P.S. I need to go back an pick up on earlier mails for which I did not, and=
 still do not, agree with your response.



-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Randall Gellen=
s
Sent: 21 April 2016 15:57
To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

Hi Christer,

At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>  Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated=20
> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.

This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this draft i=
s different from the general case where INFO is used as a tunnel mechanism =
for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as transport.  In the case here=
, we're using SIP as a way to establish emergency calls, and to transport s=
mall amounts of data that are intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.

--Randy

>
>  Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a=20
> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just=20
> some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>
>
>
>  On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO=20
>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in =20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>
>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there=20
>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft=20
>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft is=20
>>using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The=20
>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which use=20
>>INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which carries=20
>>information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>
>>
>>>   From: Ecrit=20
>>> <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>  on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>  <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>   Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>   To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>  <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>   Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming=20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>>
>>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement=20
>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to =20
>>> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with =20
>>> our work group milestones.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for =20
>>> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission=20
>>>to IESG.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Roger Marshall
>>>
>>>   Marc Linsner
>>>
>>>   ECRIT chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may=20
>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,=20
>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws=20
>>> and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable=20
>>> State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal=20
>>> binding  agreement between the parties unless expressly stated=20
>>> herein and  provided by an authorized representative of Comtech =20
>>> Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the =20
>>> intended recipient of this message, be advised that any =20
>>> dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message =20
>>> is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, =20
>>> please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete =20
>>> all copies of the original email and any attached documentation =20
>>> from any computer or other media.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   >
>>
>>--
>>Randall Gellens
>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as=20
>>easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>                                            --Wilkes, 1949


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer Scienc=
e should be in the College of Theology.  -
                                              -R. S. Barton

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


From nobody Thu Apr 21 17:30:31 2016
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
Thread-Index: AdGbgjNuRKGpq4m9QZ+LvTDn5NlseQAG5eqAAAlGNAAAALwNAAAB4GoAAARU0FD//+3lgP//YBhg
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 00:30:20 +0000
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]> <39B5E4D390E9BD4890E2B31079006101163A8C8F@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <p06240606d33ea7c8e15a@[172.20.11.94]>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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The reason we are dealing with limited sets of data in CS domain ecall is b=
ecause it is carried using modem type data transmission.

As the world evolves to and end-to-end IP connection I can well envisage a =
call for extension to the data in the form of for example:
a)	the last 30s of statistics downloaded from the engine management system
b)	the last 30s from the dashcam or any forward facing cameras

I am missing out additional real time streams here as I am assuming they co=
uld be added as additional media.

While 3GPP is not studying those as part of the release 14 work, and not pr=
oposing to increase that currently to maintain compatibility with the CS do=
main, I believe we need to build a mechanism to take account of the additio=
n of large amounts of data in the future. I suspect for compatibility purpo=
ses there will remain the need for the limited block when interworking with=
 the CS domain, but an enhanced block when we have end to end IP. I fail to=
 see why we should have to have two different mechanisms because one block =
is bigger than the other.

The general principle in emergency calls as far as I can understand the mor=
e information that can be made available to the call taker, the better (ass=
uming it is done in a controlled manner). That means that much of the addit=
ional data may well be subsequent data rather than included in the INVITE.

Regards

Keith=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Randall Gellen=
s
Sent: 21 April 2016 16:57
To: Ivo Sedlacek; Christer Holmberg; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

Hi Ivo,

We are dealing with a very limited set of data now.  For this draft, that's=
 all we are dealing with.  It is possible that in the future, new uses will=
 appear that require transmitting larger sets of data, and if that happens,=
 I'd be happy to develop an extension to the additional-data draft that pro=
vides a third mechanism for transmitting data, so that in addition to the c=
urrent mechanisms of by-value in the SIP signaling and by-reference using H=
TTPS, we'd have a third mechanism using a separate media channel.

At 3:05 PM +0000 4/21/16, Ivo Sedlacek wrote:

>  Hello,
>
>  1) IMO, either RFC6086 should be used as intended in RFC6086, or
> RFC6086 should not be used. Else, everyone trying to use RFC6086 can=20
> claim his context is different.
>
>  2) on "to transport small amounts of data that are intrinsic to the=20
> call" - how can we be sure that the amounts of data that are intrinsic=20
> to the call will stay "small" forever? The need on data transfers tend=20
> to grown, and the cars are getting more and more intelligent.
>
>  Kind regards
>
>  Ivo Sedlacek
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall=20
> Gellens
>  Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:57 PM
>  To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall;=20
> ecrit@ietf.org
>  Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>  Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>  Hi Christer,
>
>  At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>
>>   Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated =20
>> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.
>
>  This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this=20
> draft is different from the general case where INFO is used as a=20
> tunnel mechanism for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as=20
> transport.  In the case here, we're using SIP as a way to establish=20
> emergency calls, and to transport small amounts of data that are=20
> intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.
>
>  --Randy
>
>>
>>   Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a =20
>> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is=20
>> just  some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>>
>>   Regards,
>>
>>   Christer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote=
:
>>
>>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>    I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO =20
>>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in =20
>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>>
>>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there=20
>>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft=20
>>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft=20
>>>is using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The=20
>>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which=20
>>>use INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which=20
>>>carries information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>>
>>>
>>>>    From: Ecrit
>>>>  <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>>   on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>>   <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com=
>
>>>>    Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>>    To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>>   <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>>    Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>>    Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement =20
>>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list=20
>>>> to  progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>   >>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance=20
> with
>>>>  our work group milestones.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD=20
>>>> for  a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Please confirm your support on moving these two=20
>>>>forward/submission to IESG.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Roger Marshall
>>>>
>>>>    Marc Linsner
>>>>
>>>>    ECRIT chairs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may =20
>>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary, =20
>>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export=20
>>>> laws  and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by=20
>>>> applicable  State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall=20
>>>> create any legal  binding  agreement between the parties unless=20
>>>> expressly stated  herein and  provided by an authorized=20
>>>> representative of Comtech  Telecommunications Corp. or its=20
>>>> subsidiaries. If you are not the  intended recipient of this=20
>>>> message, be advised that any  dissemination, distribution, or use=20
>>>> of the contents of this message  is strictly prohibited. If you=20
>>>> received this message in error,  please notify us immediately by=20
>>>> return email and permanently delete  all copies of the original=20
>>>> email and any attached documentation  from any computer or other media=
.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Ecrit mailing list
>>>>    Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>    >
>>>
>>>--
>>>Randall Gellens
>>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as=20
>>>easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>>                                             --Wilkes, 1949
>
>
>  --
>  Randall Gellens
>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer=20
> Science should be in the College of Theology.  -
>                                                -R. S. Barton
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- A successful tool is =
used to do something undreamed of by its author.
                                                           --Johnson

_______________________________________________
Ecrit mailing list
Ecrit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>, "EXT Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
Thread-Index: AdGbgjNuRKGpq4m9QZ+LvTDn5NlseQAG5eqAAAlGNAAAALwNAAAB4GoAAAQ6xPAAFAmVYA==
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 00:38:18 +0000
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC8A5D@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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One thing I forgot to add to this message.

INFO was originally a specific mechanism for one use case.

When it was agreed to generalize it to the document we have now, there was =
a lot of resistance to any mechanism that allowed data to be carried in SIP=
. The argument was that SIP is a rendezvous protocol for a very specific pu=
rpose, and data transport should be met by other protocols, possibly with t=
he support of SIP.

You seem to have evaded that discussion by writing it in ECRIT rather than =
involving SIPCORE.

Further I am not sure that ECRIT has the scope to invent new SIP protocol. =
Which part of the SIP charter justifies extending SIP in this manner?

Regards

Keith


-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Drage, Keith (=
Nokia - GB)
Sent: 21 April 2016 17:28
To: EXT Randall Gellens; Christer Holmberg; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

As far as I am aware, both SIP, now deceased, and SIPCORE, have made no gen=
eral provision of the use of SIP as a transport, outside the use of INFO.

Specific mechanisms do exist such as MESSAGE, PUBLISH and SUBSCRIBE NOTIFY.

Moreover there is a long history of the use of SIP as a transport mechanism=
 which is why I believe SIP/SIPCORE focused on INFO as being the correct me=
ans of providing this. That is INFO without miscellaneous extensions. There=
 was IETF consensus on moving forward with INFO in the form that it is in, =
and one should stick within those rules.

Regards

Keith Drage

P.S. I need to go back an pick up on earlier mails for which I did not, and=
 still do not, agree with your response.



-----Original Message-----
From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Randall Gellen=
s
Sent: 21 April 2016 15:57
To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

Hi Christer,

At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:

>  Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated=20
> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.

This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this draft i=
s different from the general case where INFO is used as a tunnel mechanism =
for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as transport.  In the case here=
, we're using SIP as a way to establish emergency calls, and to transport s=
mall amounts of data that are intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.

--Randy

>
>  Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a=20
> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is just=20
> some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Christer
>
>
>
>
>  On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>
>>At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>
>>>   I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO=20
>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in=20
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>
>>The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there=20
>>would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft=20
>>registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft is=20
>>using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.  The=20
>>debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols which use=20
>>INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here, which carries=20
>>information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>
>>
>>>   From: Ecrit
>>> <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>  on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>  <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>   Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>   To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>  <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>   Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>>
>>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement=20
>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to=20
>>> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>  draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with=20
>>> our work group milestones.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for=20
>>> a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission=20
>>>to IESG.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Roger Marshall
>>>
>>>   Marc Linsner
>>>
>>>   ECRIT chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may=20
>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,=20
>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export laws=20
>>> and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by applicable=20
>>> State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall create any legal=20
>>> binding  agreement between the parties unless expressly stated=20
>>> herein and  provided by an authorized representative of Comtech=20
>>> Telecommunications Corp. or its subsidiaries. If you are not the=20
>>> intended recipient of this message, be advised that any=20
>>> dissemination, distribution, or use of the contents of this message=20
>>> is strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error,=20
>>> please notify us immediately by return email and permanently delete=20
>>> all copies of the original email and any attached documentation from=20
>>> any computer or other media.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>   >
>>
>>--
>>Randall Gellens
>>Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as=20
>>easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>                                            --Wilkes, 1949


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer Scienc=
e should be in the College of Theology.  -
                                              -R. S. Barton

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From nobody Thu Apr 21 17:48:18 2016
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, EXT Roger Marshall <Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 00:48:12 +0000
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADEC8778@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-l ucent.com> <p06240602d33e894cbc65@[172.20.11.94]>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Assuming by "our people" you mean "Qualcomm" rather than "pensive" or some =
other organization.

I am aware that Qualcomm is trying to drive a specific solution forward in =
3GPP.

That does not mean that the rest of 3GPP agree with that solution, and ther=
e still needs to be some serious discussion on the future extensibility, an=
d interaction with other emergency call capabilities, of the Qualcomm solut=
ion, versus other proposals.

As regards the service URN usage, you dismissed the point I made about this=
 usage in ecall in an earlier mail, in regard to the resource addressed. I =
am not happy with that response and need to come back on it. Until we have =
sorted the semantics of the URN used in ecall, it is impossible to say whet=
her those are also applicable to carcrash, and vice versa.

Regards

Keith

-----Original Message-----
From: EXT Randall Gellens [mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org]=20
Sent: 21 April 2016 15:50
To: Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB); EXT Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and=
 draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07

Hi Keith,

At 1:23 PM +0000 4/21/16, Keith (Nokia - GB) Drage wrote:

>  I'm afraid I cannot support ecall moving forward because of thetotal=20
> lack of synchronization with the other SDO. It is becoming more and=20
> more apparent that there are divergences with the current 3GPP=20
> thinking.

Can you give more details and perhaps an example of these divergences?  I a=
m not aware of any, and neither are our people in 3GPP.

>   Further, I cannot support carcrash moving forward for the same=20
> reason unless it uses different subtypes to ecall. Please also note=20
> that if these different values are used in 3GPP support of emergency=20
> call, they will be routed to the default emergency PSAP in accordance=20
> with 3GPP specifications.

The two drafts use the same SOS child service URN at your insistence.=20
Originally, these were two different child URNs, and you argued at that tim=
e that the call set-up must be identical in the two drafts.=20
Your argument was accepted, so the drafts were modified so that car-crash i=
nherits the call set-up and other technical aspects from ecall, with the on=
ly technical difference being the mandatory crash data set (MSD in ecall an=
d VEDS in car-crash).

--Randy


>  From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Roger=20
> Marshall
>  Sent: 21 April 2016 05:13
>  To: ecrit@ietf.org
>  Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>  Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07=20
> and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>
>  During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement in=20
> the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list to=20
> progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance with our=20
> work group milestones.
>
>  The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD for a=20
> sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>
>  Please confirm your support on moving these two forward/submission to IE=
SG.
>
>  Roger Marshall
>  Marc Linsner
>  ECRIT chairs
>
>
>  NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may contain=20
> information which is confidential, proprietary, attorney-client=20
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>  _______________________________________________
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--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
    Freddie Laker
    May be at peace with his Maker.
    But he is persona non grata
    With IATA.
            --HRH Duke of Edinburgh


From nobody Fri Apr 22 07:03:35 2016
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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]> <39B5E4D390E9BD4890E2B31079006101163A8C8F@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <p06240606d33ea7c8e15a@[172.20.11.94]> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADED537A@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com>
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From nobody Fri Apr 22 07:36:49 2016
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ecrit/hj8pfpI4ildhNWYT2JNH0MJMVbs>
Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From nobody Fri Apr 22 08:15:00 2016
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]> <39B5E4D390E9BD4890E2B31079006101163A8C8F@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <p06240606d33ea7c8e15a@[172.20.11.94]> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADED537A@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <8DEC3EE9-D343-46DF-BD82-B97C79D8E101@neustar.biz> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F754DC@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 11:14:54 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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On 4/22/16 10:36 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> It seems to me that you would need a data path well beyond a SIP path for that kind of thing.  I’m not even sure a SUB/NOT is the right way to do that.
>> You might then pass the service point URI in Additional Data, but the negotiation of the transfer should be completely outside SIP.
>>
>> Since it’s not real time, it’s not even an RTP thing, or, I suspect, even an SDP thing.  Just pass an HTTPS URI and define a new protocol.  If we have IP end to end, then use it.
>
> You can negotiate other types of media/data channels than RTP/real-time with SDP.
>
> I agree that SUB/NOT doesn't solve anything. And, as you need to send data in both directions, you'd have to create subscriptions (all of which have to be separate dialogs) in both directions, and then somehow associate them.

If there is video, then another RTP channel could be used to transfer 
it, or it could be transferred as a file.

For other stuff, MSRP and data channels are possibilities.

So there are lots of options.

But an INFO package seems ok to me for the little stuff that didn't go 
in the INVITE as additional data. But at that point I think it would be 
best to use INFO as intended, with INFO messages in both directions if 
needed.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
>> On Apr 21, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <keith.drage@nokia.com> wrote:
>>
>> The reason we are dealing with limited sets of data in CS domain ecall is because it is carried using modem type data transmission.
>>
>> As the world evolves to and end-to-end IP connection I can well envisage a call for extension to the data in the form of for example:
>> a)	the last 30s of statistics downloaded from the engine management system
>> b)	the last 30s from the dashcam or any forward facing cameras
>>
>> I am missing out additional real time streams here as I am assuming they could be added as additional media.
>>
>> While 3GPP is not studying those as part of the release 14 work, and not proposing to increase that currently to maintain compatibility with the CS domain, I believe we need to build a mechanism to take account of the addition of large amounts of data in the future. I suspect for compatibility purposes there will remain the need for the limited block when interworking with the CS domain, but an enhanced block when we have end to end IP. I fail to see why we should have to have two different mechanisms because one block is bigger than the other.
>>
>> The general principle in emergency calls as far as I can understand the more information that can be made available to the call taker, the better (assuming it is done in a controlled manner). That means that much of the additional data may well be subsequent data rather than included in the INVITE.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Randall
>> Gellens
>> Sent: 21 April 2016 16:57
>> To: Ivo Sedlacek; Christer Holmberg; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
>> Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>
>> Hi Ivo,
>>
>> We are dealing with a very limited set of data now.  For this draft, that's all we are dealing with.  It is possible that in the future, new uses will appear that require transmitting larger sets of data, and if that happens, I'd be happy to develop an extension to the additional-data draft that provides a third mechanism for transmitting data, so that in addition to the current mechanisms of by-value in the SIP signaling and by-reference using HTTPS, we'd have a third mechanism using a separate media channel.
>>
>> At 3:05 PM +0000 4/21/16, Ivo Sedlacek wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> 1) IMO, either RFC6086 should be used as intended in RFC6086, or
>>> RFC6086 should not be used. Else, everyone trying to use RFC6086 can
>>> claim his context is different.
>>>
>>> 2) on "to transport small amounts of data that are intrinsic to the
>>> call" - how can we be sure that the amounts of data that are
>>> intrinsic to the call will stay "small" forever? The need on data
>>> transfers tend to grown, and the cars are getting more and more intelligent.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>>
>>> Ivo Sedlacek
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall
>>> Gellens
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:57 PM
>>> To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall;
>>> ecrit@ietf.org
>>> Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>> Hi Christer,
>>>
>>> At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated
>>>> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.
>>>
>>> This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this
>>> draft is different from the general case where INFO is used as a
>>> tunnel mechanism for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as
>>> transport.  In the case here, we're using SIP as a way to establish
>>> emergency calls, and to transport small amounts of data that are
>>> intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.
>>>
>>> --Randy
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a
>>>> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is
>>>> just  some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>>>>
>>>>   Regards,
>>>>
>>>>   Christer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>    I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO
>>>>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in
>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>>>>
>>>>> The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there
>>>>> would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft
>>>>> registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft
>>>>> is using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.
>>>>> The debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols
>>>>> which use INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here,
>>>>> which carries information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>    From: Ecrit
>>>>>> <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>>>>   on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>>>>   <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>>>>    Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>>>>    To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>>>>   <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>>>>    Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>>>>    Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement
>>>>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list
>>>>>> to  progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance
>>> with
>>>>>> our work group milestones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD
>>>>>> for  a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Please confirm your support on moving these two
>>>>>> forward/submission to IESG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Roger Marshall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Marc Linsner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    ECRIT chairs
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may
>>>>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,
>>>>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export
>>>>>> laws  and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by
>>>>>> applicable  State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall
>>>>>> create any legal  binding  agreement between the parties unless
>>>>>> expressly stated  herein and  provided by an authorized
>>>>>> representative of Comtech  Telecommunications Corp. or its
>>>>>> subsidiaries. If you are not the  intended recipient of this
>>>>>> message, be advised that any  dissemination, distribution, or use
>>>>>> of the contents of this message  is strictly prohibited. If you
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>>>>>> return email and permanently delete  all copies of the original
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>    Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>>    Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as
>>>>> easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>>>>                                             --Wilkes, 1949
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randall Gellens
>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer
>>> Science should be in the College of Theology.  -
>>>                                                -R. S. Barton
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>>
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- A successful tool is used to do something undreamed of by its author.
>>                                                            --Johnson
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ecrit mailing list
>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>


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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
Thread-Index: AQHRnJ+2AEfvXas/Y06/XBhdcy6pZw==
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 15:17:18 +0000
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]> <39B5E4D390E9BD4890E2B31079006101163A8C8F@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <p06240606d33ea7c8e15a@[172.20.11.94]> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADED537A@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <8DEC3EE9-D343-46DF-BD82-B97C79D8E101@neustar.biz> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F754DC@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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On 4/22/16 11:17 AM, Rosen, Brian wrote:
> A data channel negotiated in SDP?  For this?
>
> Please.  If we need a new protocol, because we’re bending SIP too much, let’s design a new protocol.  These are not some power sensitive, size sensitive devices.  It’s a fully connected vehicle.  We are quite capable of designing an appropriate protocol for this kind of data, and SDP negotiation isn’t appropriate.  If we’re past SIP, we’re past SIP.  And past SDP offer/answer.
>
> I don’t think the possibility of needing a new protocol for data way beyond what we’ve considered so far for Additional Data is  bad idea, or obviates what Additional Data does now.  I’m happy to start discussion of such a thing, but please we need to get this simple stuff done now.
>
> You are thinking camera video from a car.   Consider active building data, or security camera pan/tilt/zoom, or controlling an elevator, or medical sensor data.  All related to an emergency call, all beyond SIP, all bigger than passing in a body would be appropriate for.
>
> It’s not just vehicle telematics.
>
> Very much in scope for ecrit.   Probably beyond 3GPP scope, but that’s not for me to say.
>
> But a data channel negotiated in SDP over a SIP connection?  Really?  Look at it this way - establishing or taking down such a connection is not, at all related to establishing or taking down the SIP connection.  The two sessions are related, sure, but they don’t go up and down at the same time.  The SIP session is for the real time media to between the humans.  The stuff we’re talking about is machine to machine, possibly viewed real time or non-real time by one end (it’s streaming, RTSP stuff).

I'm just a kibitzer here - I don't really understand the details of the 
use cases, and am just responding to the discussion.

But from what I have read, there are real differences of opinion about 
how this stuff should work. It seems the Europeans think it is important 
for there to be a real-time channel to the car, for use by the humans 
there. And all the other stuff is somehow associated with that.

OTOH, I gather from what you have said, that the US considers those to 
be separate things. So the car (or whatever) might want to report stuff 
without establishing a real-time channel.

Those differences either need to be reconciled, or else they may well 
lead to different mechanisms.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> Brian
>
>> On Apr 22, 2016, at 10:36 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> It seems to me that you would need a data path well beyond a SIP path for that kind of thing.  I’m not even sure a SUB/NOT is the right way to do that.
>>> You might then pass the service point URI in Additional Data, but the negotiation of the transfer should be completely outside SIP.
>>>
>>> Since it’s not real time, it’s not even an RTP thing, or, I suspect, even an SDP thing.  Just pass an HTTPS URI and define a new protocol.  If we have IP end to end, then use it.
>>
>> You can negotiate other types of media/data channels than RTP/real-time with SDP.
>>
>> I agree that SUB/NOT doesn't solve anything. And, as you need to send data in both directions, you'd have to create subscriptions (all of which have to be separate dialogs) in both directions, and then somehow associate them.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 21, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <keith.drage@nokia.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The reason we are dealing with limited sets of data in CS domain ecall is because it is carried using modem type data transmission.
>>>
>>> As the world evolves to and end-to-end IP connection I can well envisage a call for extension to the data in the form of for example:
>>> a)	the last 30s of statistics downloaded from the engine management system
>>> b)	the last 30s from the dashcam or any forward facing cameras
>>>
>>> I am missing out additional real time streams here as I am assuming they could be added as additional media.
>>>
>>> While 3GPP is not studying those as part of the release 14 work, and not proposing to increase that currently to maintain compatibility with the CS domain, I believe we need to build a mechanism to take account of the addition of large amounts of data in the future. I suspect for compatibility purposes there will remain the need for the limited block when interworking with the CS domain, but an enhanced block when we have end to end IP. I fail to see why we should have to have two different mechanisms because one block is bigger than the other.
>>>
>>> The general principle in emergency calls as far as I can understand the more information that can be made available to the call taker, the better (assuming it is done in a controlled manner). That means that much of the additional data may well be subsequent data rather than included in the INVITE.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Randall
>>> Gellens
>>> Sent: 21 April 2016 16:57
>>> To: Ivo Sedlacek; Christer Holmberg; Roger Marshall; ecrit@ietf.org
>>> Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>
>>> Hi Ivo,
>>>
>>> We are dealing with a very limited set of data now.  For this draft, that's all we are dealing with.  It is possible that in the future, new uses will appear that require transmitting larger sets of data, and if that happens, I'd be happy to develop an extension to the additional-data draft that provides a third mechanism for transmitting data, so that in addition to the current mechanisms of by-value in the SIP signaling and by-reference using HTTPS, we'd have a third mechanism using a separate media channel.
>>>
>>> At 3:05 PM +0000 4/21/16, Ivo Sedlacek wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> 1) IMO, either RFC6086 should be used as intended in RFC6086, or
>>>> RFC6086 should not be used. Else, everyone trying to use RFC6086 can
>>>> claim his context is different.
>>>>
>>>> 2) on "to transport small amounts of data that are intrinsic to the
>>>> call" - how can we be sure that the amounts of data that are
>>>> intrinsic to the call will stay "small" forever? The need on data
>>>> transfers tend to grown, and the cars are getting more and more intelligent.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards
>>>>
>>>> Ivo Sedlacek
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ecrit [mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall
>>>> Gellens
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 4:57 PM
>>>> To: Christer Holmberg; Randall Gellens; Roger Marshall;
>>>> ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: Ben Campbell (ben@nostrum.com)
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>>
>>>> Hi Christer,
>>>>
>>>> At 2:03 PM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Again, if you think the INFO package mechanism and the associated
>>>>> rules  are silly, bring the issue to SIPCORE.
>>>>
>>>> This is not what I am saying.  I am saying that the context of this
>>>> draft is different from the general case where INFO is used as a
>>>> tunnel mechanism for a protocol that just happens to use SIP as
>>>> transport.  In the case here, we're using SIP as a way to establish
>>>> emergency calls, and to transport small amounts of data that are
>>>> intrinsic to the call.  Different contexts.
>>>>
>>>> --Randy
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure I understand your comment about INFO not being used as a
>>>>> tunnel  mechanism. From a SIP protocol perspective the content is
>>>>> just  some data  sent between two application endpoints.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Christer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 21/04/16 16:42, "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At 6:16 AM +0000 4/21/16, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   I think we still have the issue with sending data in INFO
>>>>>>> responses  (which is not related to the sync with other SDOs) in
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The argument seems silly to me.  If the draft uses re-INVITE, there
>>>>>> would be no issue.  I suspect the problem may be that the draft
>>>>>> registers an INFO package, which invites implication that the draft
>>>>>> is using INFO as a pure tunnel mechanism, which is not the case.
>>>>>> The debate over INFO responses mixes up the context of protocols
>>>>>> which use INFO as a tunnel/transport mechanism with the case here,
>>>>>> which carries information intrinsic to the emergency call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   From: Ecrit
>>>>>>> <<mailto:ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>ecrit-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> on behalf of Roger Marshall
>>>>>>> <<mailto:Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>Roger.Marshall@comtechtel.com>
>>>>>>>   Date: Thursday 21 April 2016 at 07:13
>>>>>>>   To: "<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org"
>>>>>>> <<mailto:ecrit@ietf.org>ecrit@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   Cc: Ben Campbell <<mailto:ben@nostrum.com>ben@nostrum.com>
>>>>>>>   Subject: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07  and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   During our meeting in BA, the posted notes reflect the agreement
>>>>>>> in  the room & the chairs action to confirm consensus on the list
>>>>>>> to  progress both ID's, draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 &
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07 for IESG submission in accordance
>>>> with
>>>>>>> our work group milestones.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   The agreement as documented was with a caveat of asking the AD
>>>>>>> for  a sync with other SDO progress right before final approval.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Please confirm your support on moving these two
>>>>>>> forward/submission to IESG.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Roger Marshall
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Marc Linsner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ECRIT chairs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: This email, including attachments, may
>>>>>>> contain  information which is confidential, proprietary,
>>>>>>> attorney-client  privileged and/or controlled under U.S. export
>>>>>>> laws  and regulations  and may be restricted from disclosure by
>>>>>>> applicable  State and  Federal law. Nothing in this email shall
>>>>>>> create any legal  binding  agreement between the parties unless
>>>>>>> expressly stated  herein and  provided by an authorized
>>>>>>> representative of Comtech  Telecommunications Corp. or its
>>>>>>> subsidiaries. If you are not the  intended recipient of this
>>>>>>> message, be advised that any  dissemination, distribution, or use
>>>>>>> of the contents of this message  is strictly prohibited. If you
>>>>>>> received this message in error,  please notify us immediately by
>>>>>>> return email and permanently delete  all copies of the original
>>>>>>> email and any attached documentation  from any computer or other media.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   Ecrit mailing list
>>>>>>>   Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It wasn't as
>>>>>> easy to get programs right as we had thought.
>>>>>>                                            --Wilkes, 1949
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Maybe Computer
>>>> Science should be in the College of Theology.  -
>>>>                                               -R. S. Barton
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randall Gellens
>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- A successful tool is used to do something undreamed of by its author.
>>>                                                           --Johnson
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ecrit mailing list
>>> Ecrit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> Ecrit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>


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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From nobody Fri Apr 22 13:23:08 2016
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 20:21:58 +0000
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
Thread-Index: AQHRnJ+2AEfvXas/Y06/XBhdcy6pZw==
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 17:06:08 +0000
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References: <FBD5AAFFD0978846BF6D3FAB4C892ACC398847CA@SEA-EXMB-2.telecomsys.com> <D33E4A4E.74B5%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240601d33e88b498cf@[172.20.11.94]> <D33EB5D5.7560%christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> <p06240604d33e9a21ae30@[172.20.11.94]> <39B5E4D390E9BD4890E2B31079006101163A8C8F@ESESSMB301.ericsson.se> <p06240606d33ea7c8e15a@[172.20.11.94]> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8BADED537A@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <8DEC3EE9-D343-46DF-BD82-B97C79D8E101@neustar.biz> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F754DC@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <B52EBFD8-6B49-4162-BB46-43691D841DEF@neustar.biz> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37F75AB5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se>
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Cc: "Ben Campbell \(ben@nostrum.com\)" <ben@nostrum.com>, "ecrit@ietf.org" <ecrit@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From nobody Sat Apr 23 11:00:17 2016
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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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On 4/23/16 1:06 PM, Rosen, Brian wrote:
> I don’t think MSRP is at all appropriate to send large quantity of data between a device and a PSAP.
>
> I think that if a session has media, then SIP is an appropriate protocol to establish the session, and if there is data related to the call, then it’s appropriate to pass small quantity of such data in the SIP headers or bodies.
>
> Once you get beyond a small amount of data, I think SIP is not appropriate.  You can pass some data, like a URI, that could be used to establish some other kind of data connection in SIP, again, assuming the data is related to the call.  Here it really is related, not directly tied to the call.
>
> AFAIK, we don’t consider networks, even mobile networks, to be power sensitive or size sensitive.  We’re often asked to bend common sense to accommodate small battery operated mobile devices because of their limitations.  Those are usually not network limitations, they are end device limitations.  I don’t think we have those issues here.  You could imagine other devices, like a small medical sensor, that could have such limitations, so I think some consideration of those issues is appropriate, but they don’t apply to vehicle telematics.
>
> The draft does define eCall for SIP, and provides ways to transfer a small amount of data in SIP headers or bodies.  I think that is fine.  When we start suggesting we use these mechanisms for one way streaming video, then I think we’re probably beyond what this draft attempts to do.  I think accommodating large quantities of data related to an emergency call is useful, and I’d like a solution, but I don’t think this draft should do that, and I think such data transfer isn’t something you do in SIP.  I don’t mind passing info that could be used to establish some other session for such data, as long as the data is related to the emergency call,using the mechanisms described in the draft.
>
> I don’t think establishing an MSRP session is useful unless there is text being exchanged between the caller and the PSAP.  I certainly would object to using MSRP as a generic data transport mechanism.

What about RFC5547: file transfer over MSRP?

	Thanks,
	Paul


From nobody Mon Apr 25 00:00:05 2016
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From: Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From nobody Mon Apr 25 06:10:00 2016
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From: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
To: Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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From nobody Mon Apr 25 06:16:33 2016
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Hi,

>Yes, that is helpful, and I would not object to a statement in both
>drafts that the mechanisms are intended for small amounts of data and the
>server can reject whatever it considers too big using 513.


That=B9s why we should have a solution from day one that can also handle bi=
g
amounts of data - whatever the definition of "big amount" is.

Regards,

Christer




>
>Brian
>
>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 2:59 AM, Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>>> AFAIK, we don=B9t consider networks, even mobile networks, to be power
>>>sensitive or >>>size sensitive<<<.
>>=20
>> Be aware that RFC3261 defines 513 response:
>> ------------------------------------
>> 21.5.7 513 Message Too Large
>>=20
>>   The server was unable to process the request since the message length
>>   exceeded its capabilities.
>> ------------------------------------
>>=20
>> This response can also be sent by a SIP network entity if a SIP request
>>(e.g. SIP INFO with an additional data) is too large for it. Such
>>rejection is particularly likely if the SIP network entity is optimized
>>for regular sizes of SIP signalling for sesson setup, modification and
>>release.
>>=20
>> Kind regards
>>=20
>> Ivo Sedlacek
>


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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:59:10 -0700
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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The ecall draft says:

    Note that if additional data sets are defined and registered (e.g.,
    in the future or in other regions) and transmitted using the same
    mechanisms, the size and frequency of transmission during a session
    needs to be evaluated to be sure it is appropriate to use the
    signaling channel.

The additional-data drafts says:

    Transmitting data by value is especially useful in certain cases,
    such as when the data exists in or is generated by the originating
    device, but is not intended for very large data blocks.




At 1:09 PM +0000 4/25/16, Brian Rosen wrote:

>  Yes, that is helpful, and I would not object to a statement in both 
> drafts that the mechanisms are intended for small amounts of data 
> and the server can reject whatever it considers too big using 513.
>
>  Brian
>
>>  On Apr 25, 2016, at 2:59 AM, Ivo Sedlacek <ivo.sedlacek@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  AFAIK, we don't consider networks, even mobile networks, to be 
>>> power sensitive or >>>size sensitive<<<. 
>>
>>  Be aware that RFC3261 defines 513 response:
>>  ------------------------------------
>>  21.5.7 513 Message Too Large
>>
>>    The server was unable to process the request since the message length
>>    exceeded its capabilities.
>>  ------------------------------------
>>
>>  This response can also be sent by a SIP network entity if a SIP 
>> request (e.g. SIP INFO with an additional data) is too large for 
>> it. Such rejection is particularly likely if the SIP network 
>> entity is optimized for regular sizes of SIP signalling for sesson 
>> setup, modification and release.
>>
>>  Kind regards
>>
>>  Ivo Sedlacek
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Ecrit mailing list
>  Ecrit@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
But, something that only exists in thought is even better, as
you can read for yourself in my favorite book of (English)
verse and drawings, "The Space-Child's Mother Goose" (Verses
by Frederick Winsor, Illustrations by Marian Parry, Simon and
Schuster, 1958, unfortunately out of print):
    I have a pet hen whose name is Probable. She lays eggs in
    concept, being a sophist bird.  But not in reality at all;
    those would be inferior eggs; for thought is superior to
    reality.
--unknown


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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: "EXT Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 13:22:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] since BA, confirming draft-ietf-ecrit-car-crash-07 and draft-ietf-ecrit-ecall-07
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