From nobody Tue Aug 5 09:21:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742431A035C for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:21:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xWV0RLPyLqlQ for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B31A91A0380 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.22.229.45] ([162.210.130.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id s75GKv82021683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:20:57 -0700 Message-ID: <53E10469.1080409@sonic.net> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:20:57 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVb4Fyd9tVGbYfdnHdNROkHULV32ADyZCwer0z2pOM0ruW1yOfkzxN8VlNz9KthFs4Vygg8Gm9mmOJcQPCTP7kqP X-Sonic-ID: C;Hvk6e7wc5BGDG2yt54E5FQ== M;phpke7wc5BGDG2yt54E5FQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/i8OMjXox5pE4PWHp2f8m8PyJvYg Subject: [Efficientnd-dt] On PTO this Thu X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:21:01 -0000 Going hiking in Yosemite. Feel free to hold a meeting without me. Erik From nobody Tue Aug 5 09:30:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA6E1B2A82 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:29:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MyNfUiXGjHfY for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22a.google.com (mail-qg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EDD11A036B for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id j5so1295262qga.15 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:29:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=qYLwZ4TimElg40sNdP8q6x2fmAKh7Im420CDfPY8Hqw=; b=EQsZ7Zt3P37d2H9n9bMXEh+SGF/5y+SZxc9R0PsUM4+d3JwKaQrQqR9W79HQe3z/7I tex1/6qY2lU+nDb9tFwpS//y6WNABZfnRpbfppJ0dVtfVvbCJLclNHPMOfwPU4y2XOz0 o07VwMWGhHXDj3qNmBGaq/L65W65YPspTiYjIMRNydQINtV5cZlfyh2cLQgaPBefABnD ps7pdPLCKXhkInuA9PyWBevXl1HgT+r8uqbhIvw9eMXZmUJbbn9F4QeQYEHnWvgD6+jH WbEilh6c8DqGtZvYVRczd54KEH/GpsiO6iMa6vIVgldoz10cRuqyE+uKhA5070DjVOBj UM2A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=qYLwZ4TimElg40sNdP8q6x2fmAKh7Im420CDfPY8Hqw=; b=OTnR4mUDzlR0GE/rHMYJf+QCHLcd2y4NNFYNOIL8tSAZI1g31FOyKDKjADsUhuN+T5 Bk/16KhGE9Zj+GTg5Ycl2GfYJ1auVzpbQtFTHv4VvUZxPIxpT41qo2tVeW7Bp0yO+ojh 34IwicznM60mgr5pbXF7yfIe2Jm1IXWwk5IOyT3h+DHZXKqSntcQMtlzazlxtR5/S3hP 1/SdC+97XB3F+rYizl+OdAf6a3ze1h8+pyiRvmPu8B9fn7GSFaz+c3Rum3/bbW0VGJZL E+DdgWaa1k6byiD3HQotRdo1xDAmAugyWe9ibFgeY0Zo/xC6VZif6774yCsqZEAJPJdf hzAw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmmnS99kqpb7XxSniBue4sSng3aFNLEp+QX3zNWZaJHGUjlI4YnDg/J1nVAsjZSmIYHi6gK X-Received: by 10.224.7.193 with SMTP id e1mr7575469qae.74.1407256196460; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:29:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.23.200 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53E10469.1080409@sonic.net> References: <53E10469.1080409@sonic.net> From: Erik Kline Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:29:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Erik Nordmark Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6765f0b2ed6a04ffe45d9c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/TKxKyZ-jl3BJMOYBi6Y0s_jhWwE Cc: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Efficientnd-dt] On PTO this Thu X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:29:59 -0000 --047d7b6765f0b2ed6a04ffe45d9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hopefully the fires have died down. And I notice you have a sonic.net email address. If that means what I think it means, care to contact the ISP-folk and inject some expertise: https://forums.sonic.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2148&p=13498#p13498 "...IPv6 delivers actual data payload at a rate of about 10% slower than IPv4..." On 5 August 2014 09:20, Erik Nordmark wrote: > Going hiking in Yosemite. > > Feel free to hold a meeting without me. > > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > Efficientnd-dt mailing list > Efficientnd-dt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/efficientnd-dt > --047d7b6765f0b2ed6a04ffe45d9c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hopefully the fires have died down.

<= ;unrelated>
And I notice you have a sonic.net email address. =C2=A0If that means what I think it means, = care to contact the ISP-folk and inject some expertise:

=
"...IPv6 delivers actual data payload at a rate of abou= t 10% slower than IPv4..."
</unrelated>


On 5 August 2014 09:20, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@son= ic.net> wrote:
Going hiking in Yosemite.

Feel free to hold a meeting without me.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Erik

_______________________________________________
Efficientnd-dt mailing list
Efficientnd-dt= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/efficientnd-dt

--047d7b6765f0b2ed6a04ffe45d9c-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 09:48:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130141A01E7 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5fVA7xthie0U for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E54C01A0389 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.22.229.45] ([162.210.130.3]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id s75GlhoX008520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:47:43 -0700 Message-ID: <53E10AAF.9040104@sonic.net> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:47:43 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZ6ZdAQ9K8S1m5quVVRPIms/88rTDrMbWaDoUYfs4FBMuT+s5DJhitYrlk+hEuCRvr86+QCAqAuVzcIjjbmVHCM X-Sonic-ID: C;NsyTOMAc5BGeX08doK8kYw== M;EjC4OMAc5BGeX08doK8kYw== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/R_DlbPLv0ZrkPOmWbCONiHSsDmk Subject: [Efficientnd-dt] IEEE P802.11aa Reliable Multicast X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:47:51 -0000 I just saw an reference to that work.I gather it is targeting audio-video bridging. Does anybody know whether it could also be used improve the reliability of other multicast? Erik From nobody Wed Aug 6 01:09:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D394B1B2CCF for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 01:09:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NByJlJUG3qsE for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 01:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E3CC1B2CCC for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 01:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=514; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407312560; x=1408522160; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=FKIjq5Stw7FucXBoN7dCLrJT47R+3vT8PAf8ELsWVNo=; b=Wr/UNzy9U0Y6hpc15hHOE3+bnnvVvXuVMrhCaU5QHNj/IRgjbmpjauZh ++5jNhe+yx8RGyK30McKiqD7FlAQogD+R7SKpkwGBBRRGr9PDl10UDaHT m3RHxAnsQT8Gd/QUlNVHh7OUT6PLujtlHwEdcM3sQH4yfOd/3hMVS6Lrx 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmQFAHDi4VOtJV2b/2dsb2JhbABZgw1SV8wVCoZ1UwGBDhZ3hAQBAQMBAQEBawsFCwIBCEYnCyUCBAENBYg6CA3DCRMEjxkzB4MvgRwFilmEI40WlGWDVGw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,810,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="66905363" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2014 08:09:19 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com [173.37.183.82]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7689JBv004128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:09:19 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x01.cisco.com ([169.254.1.37]) by xhc-rcd-x08.cisco.com ([173.37.183.82]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 03:09:19 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Erik Nordmark , "Norman Finn (nfinn)" Thread-Topic: [Efficientnd-dt] IEEE P802.11aa Reliable Multicast Thread-Index: AQHPsM0GTh8HX1HPokqMxuF+Qy60F5vDOdc4 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 08:09:18 +0000 Message-ID: <8A187969-4866-4B04-95D9-45F743BEFB80@cisco.com> References: <53E10AAF.9040104@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: <53E10AAF.9040104@sonic.net> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/QhsOWV3lyk1eS1vwusS9xnkdfdU Cc: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Efficientnd-dt] IEEE P802.11aa Reliable Multicast X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:09:26 -0000 Hi Erik: Cc ing Norm. Pascal > Le 5 ao=FBt 2014 =E0 18:48, "Erik Nordmark" a =E9cri= t : >=20 >=20 > I just saw an reference to that work.I gather it is targeting audio-video= bridging. >=20 > Does anybody know whether it could also be used improve the reliability o= f other multicast? >=20 > Erik >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Efficientnd-dt mailing list > Efficientnd-dt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/efficientnd-dt From nobody Wed Aug 6 03:33:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C561B2D28 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 03:33:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GFzK5G9_Bynb for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 03:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 186081B2D25 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 03:33:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1945; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407321191; x=1408530791; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version; bh=KvbeFGIC9I8M/GQmbOdiskUAfKBBU5v3nEbmcrY4m+g=; b=QTXY9ky3ffW82029f/jID6H7mECAZGQXEm5WN482kWoKPY74WTcW+rFa jR+PHtFm6CAugpZcEVA9sp2PaPZ23+xHIyoPB5c73sXt5pwjlGTjvjptu jI4+BT0WFKkXUOg3I+likdOjAXrx57jXNpv6BYJg1hn//iQCGQaBySovC 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah0HAPMD4lOtJV2P/2dsb2JhbABaFoJ3UlcErhQBAQEBAQEFAW6dCQyGc1MBgRAWd4QEAQECAQEBAQFrCwULC0YnMAYOBQmIMQgNwyEXhXyJUAeESwWKWYpSiDuFUI1Bg1ZqAQEBgUM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,811,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="345253758" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2014 10:33:10 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com [173.37.183.87]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s76AXAT6020171 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:33:10 GMT Received: from [10.61.196.182] (10.61.196.182) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (173.37.183.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 05:33:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 12:32:56 +0200 From: Andrew Yourtchenko X-X-Sender: ayourtch@ayourtch-mac To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" In-Reply-To: <8A187969-4866-4B04-95D9-45F743BEFB80@cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <53E10AAF.9040104@sonic.net> <8A187969-4866-4B04-95D9-45F743BEFB80@cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-466455134-1407321194=:39200" X-Originating-IP: [10.61.196.182] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/Z-WKdrWon5N8k2cby_v8wZjkPfA Cc: Erik Nordmark , "Norman Finn \(nfinn\)" , "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Efficientnd-dt] IEEE P802.11aa Reliable Multicast X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:33:13 -0000 --0-466455134-1407321194=:39200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT FWIW, (and Norm please correct me if I am saying anything that does not make sense :) I've looked at these two: http://aetos.it.teithe.gr/~peris/research/ICC_2012_802.11aa.pdf - the overview of the mechanisms and http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2014/January/2567561-2567567.pdf - the experiences with running code. To me seems like they are not video-specific, even though they keep mentioning video (probably just because this is where the biggest impact is): DMS - directed multicast service - this seems to be a variation of what is done today. send multicast as per-station unicast. UR - unsolicited retries - basically, send multiple copies of the packet at a higher rate. BA - block acknowledgement - send the burst of groupcast frames, then poll each receiving station for the block ACKs. The implementation from the second paper is open source, so this seems to be a good topic for a student project to compare the energy efficiency of all the approaches :) --a On Wed, 6 Aug 2014, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Hi Erik: > > Cc ing Norm. > > Pascal > >> Le 5 août 2014 à 18:48, "Erik Nordmark" a écrit : >> >> >> I just saw an reference to that work.I gather it is targeting audio-video bridging. >> >> Does anybody know whether it could also be used improve the reliability of other multicast? >> >> Erik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Efficientnd-dt mailing list >> Efficientnd-dt@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/efficientnd-dt > > _______________________________________________ > Efficientnd-dt mailing list > Efficientnd-dt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/efficientnd-dt > --0-466455134-1407321194=:39200-- From nobody Thu Aug 21 00:35:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF491A0424 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:35:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoF6L1zJn9VG for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80E071A00D8 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (70-36-182-172.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [70.36.182.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id s7L7ZhHK002558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:35:43 -0700 Message-ID: <53F5A14F.70501@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:35:43 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" References: <53F5A0F6.5060909@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <53F5A0F6.5060909@acm.org> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <53F5A0F6.5060909@acm.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070605010305030105050204" X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZ+BRuAwLGlpIdmsQQiDTtQvg2hPvw41sHXWRZUMMxR4CCxshilUBWH1B1pAk2qEBuZNhG0Fc1iR+puHsDU4eun X-Sonic-ID: C;ElQYwgUp5BGQuAvd54E5FQ== M;yqMuwgUp5BGQuAvd54E5FQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/ST92bousT4sYSMHr6etCvPSxykQ Subject: [Efficientnd-dt] Food for thought - router-controlled RS refresh X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:35:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070605010305030105050204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I mentioned this in our Friday meeting in Toronto - finally put it on paper. Do folks think this is a reasonable starting point for some Design Team output when it comes to RS/RA? If so, should we include all the RS/RA pieces in one document? 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00:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.568 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.568 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7XU3jWakFyXU for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63BBC1A0652 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (70-36-182-172.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [70.36.182.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id s7L7glcm012065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:42:47 -0700 Message-ID: <53F5A2F7.5030209@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:42:47 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZwgADcFokgNbfBF9HSoKD4tJySjskfEM2lHG9StcnywMHFjEM6pMtI7FYAgSt8Q5xuLpKK85mkBCa9kU7WCQFs X-Sonic-ID: C;aO/YvgYp5BGamgvd54E5FQ== M;wqLuvgYp5BGamgvd54E5FQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/bd0YVSmdg7NTXZaDcCZMNCpeivw Subject: [Efficientnd-dt] AIs from Toronto X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:42:50 -0000 Here are the AIs I wrote down at our Friday meeting in Toronto. We can check on progress on the call tomorrow. AI: John - /64 per subscriber draft AI: Suresh - check if 64 share addresses DAD and addr resolution for tether AI: John - duration of connections data AI: Andrew - check whether iOS sleep proxy is the source of the unsolicited all-nodes NA we saw in London data AI: Suresh - RA interval. Do we need infinity? (pt-pt L2) AI: Erik - initial draft on RS refresh AI: Pascal/Eric - write up DAD supression (some of it might have IPR) Sorry for not getting those out sooner. Erik From nobody Sun Aug 24 23:52:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB1A1A8AAB for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ti16N4SpRPzq for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x229.google.com (mail-qg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9FF91A8AAC for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z107so9345731qgd.14 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:52:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=4EsjCxnO1Xk5t3IEGuJy7W9UhZZtzNftBwPmUByOWQQ=; b=GeY2+aDPC7/zvu1UXV0gTDVUe25f0wm2ihoBWRee2xzLiQG/ZZ3u1bC+s0V2VUNjQs H+oVU3Nrqz/Ao8HB7ScVVyUyPI7greYSQkvp/KMUL6sPw4ua5Mq6PDHWSq98x49DDdhI jdXQM7vz5yCdW33iLPn/tRyc0eudLx2zn3gLVjUjj8rLWEn2kB34eKVYg7apqUgsnpOs B/CRLPkC8itLazxl3KP0SIaCR1UzGgLYdinOgADCgwJtYbyEMDC4om+Vc1p2ZutMrSg3 NMjSOXJ6+ezA2B+1bpIkLTWEPmVuos/I1jZ41q9UDziAMEgOZNj5ZWStsKebjp29hTrk jOsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=4EsjCxnO1Xk5t3IEGuJy7W9UhZZtzNftBwPmUByOWQQ=; b=eqF3i8tv+dyO3onXhrBKMGQeiLGn+JI525V16wNSjWdlE2KIccnPKQ3f6yZBCJ96w8 JKg6lK4XlcuEoFUdcIXdbEe4unOxNuTXXn5w8e4urfb+Mtz4aW5UltODjCpLhJYpuagF QZFA/suL/egmrET+zC0HJUyygIbg/a/+hunMY72K6xWszdOLHrxeq9L7zuIO/eQSfwT8 lOeEnmm4aw1S8SHu0HZCc6L37xeaeA9qU/57bFBqqgXFhN//ZfCLeSNJXa4j+5dARPp2 62j2TOwDr8vXY/rWum/i0XnZ3P6vvP9ftk+iLcxYCl2+H75hrw1gOADxWnDWiFACPc8t zy8A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlOkwswkRsqYtPitWxHFWArd4QNfji9WuAP9s8f5EABBQBxoLkUTDpBWytSDSYoVFd2KNbo X-Received: by 10.140.97.131 with SMTP id m3mr29592570qge.80.1408949530841; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:52:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.23.200 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 23:51:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53F5A14F.70501@sonic.net> References: <53F5A0F6.5060909@acm.org> <53F5A14F.70501@sonic.net> From: Erik Kline Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:51:50 +0900 Message-ID: To: Erik Nordmark Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a99064afc8505016ea0c6 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/p1uks95h8AFbdXpTWGy021ihlPQ Cc: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Efficientnd-dt] Food for thought - router-controlled RS refresh X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:52:12 -0000 --001a113a99064afc8505016ea0c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for writing this up. A question: is it a problem if we make resilient-rs a MUST for rs-refresh implementations? =E2=80=8B --001a113a99064afc8505016ea0c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for writing this up.

A question:= is it a problem if we make resilient-rs a MUST for rs-refresh implementati= ons?
=E2=80=8B
--001a113a99064afc8505016ea0c6-- From nobody Mon Aug 25 11:08:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735951A01F4 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NCf61rSPDWSk for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBD991A01D5 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.22.249.34] ([162.210.130.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id s7PI7i0B023298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:07:44 -0700 Message-ID: <53FB7B70.6030501@sonic.net> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:07:44 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erik Kline References: <53F5A0F6.5060909@acm.org> <53F5A14F.70501@sonic.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVYorreYZhvQg8nNKTpbByXi0E/tWDIVm9er0sZQZJx984MhK6MlCjvq/2ZUR/cxpK9GbnG0y5i3ANmc9i5G8Br9 X-Sonic-ID: C;yHUrtoIs5BGxvicfoK8kYw== M;dhpHtoIs5BGxvicfoK8kYw== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/wF0QDa78owrWZs_CEnne9sgxeO8 Cc: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Efficientnd-dt] Food for thought - router-controlled RS refresh X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 18:07:59 -0000 On 8/24/14, 11:51 PM, Erik Kline wrote: > Thanks for writing this up. > > A question: is it a problem if we make resilient-rs a MUST for > rs-refresh implementations? > ​ IMHO It would make sense to implement both at the the same time. If we could argue that a MUST dependency makes sense it would be fine with me. The argument could be something like: --- If rs-refresh is implemented and someone deploys a network which assume hosts do rs-refresh, than a host which didn't do resilent-rs would be completely dead if their 3 initial RSs were lost. But even without a rs-refresh such hosts would be dead for a long time (until the periodic multicast RA). Therefor it is strongly RECOMMENDED that hosts which implement rs-refresh also implement resilent-rs. --- Can we make that a MUST or do we need a stronger argument? Erik From nobody Tue Aug 26 08:04:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: efficientnd-dt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49AE1A00D8 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:34:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.465 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUkLt2RAlqF4 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EE001A0424 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (70-36-182-172.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [70.36.182.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id s7L7YEAM032461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:34:15 -0700 Message-ID: <53F5A0F6.5060909@acm.org> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:34:14 -0700 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "efficientnd-dt@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090903010202000500010007" X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVbqEjNt/oaUlG5oN/GltXuZgVrbmA+DJHfz0hRZHKKdDiE/MhEGcXp1JQuHyRUQgRdz3wkb2LyKfEeLp9TzdCjC X-Sonic-ID: C;EncbjQUp5BGT0wvd54E5FQ== M;nrNXjQUp5BGT0wvd54E5FQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/efficientnd-dt/R5RdardJWxGmGlIkj4vB5iZBpmg X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:04:05 -0700 Subject: [Efficientnd-dt] Food for thought - router-controlled RS refresh X-BeenThere: efficientnd-dt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: 6man Efficient ND Design Team discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:34:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090903010202000500010007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I mentioned this in our Friday meeting in Toronto - finally put it on paper. Do folks think this is a reasonable starting point for some Design Team output when it comes to RS/RA? If so, should we include all the RS/RA pieces in one document? (implementation advise, raise the max advinterval, etc) Erik --------------090903010202000500010007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="draft-endt-6man-rs-ra.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-endt-6man-rs-ra.txt" 6man WG E. Nordmark Internet-Draft Arista Networks Updates: 4861 (if approved) August 21, 2014 Intended status: Standards Track Expires: February 22, 2015 IPv6 Neighbor Discovery Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh draft-endt-6man-rs-ra00 Abstract IPv6 Neighbor Discovery relies on periodic multicast Router Advertisement messages to update timer values and to distribute new information (such as new prefixes) to hosts. On some links the use of periodic multicast messages to all host becomes expensive, and in some cases it results in hosts waking up frequently. Many implementations of RFC 4861 also use multicast for solicited Router Advertisement messages, even though that behavior is optional. This specification provides an optional mechanism for hosts and routers where instead of periodic multicast Router Advertisements the hosts are instructed (by the routers) to use unicast Router Solicitations to request refreshed Router Advertisements. This mechanism is enabled by configuring the router to include a new option in the Router Advertisement in order to allow the network administrator to choose host behavior based on whether periodic multicast are more efficient on their link or not. The routers can also tell whether the hosts are capable of the new behavior through a new flag in the Router Solicitations. Status of This Memo This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet- Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." This Internet-Draft will expire on February 22, 2015. Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 1] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 Copyright Notice Copyright (c) 2014 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the document authors. All rights reserved. This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of publication of this document. Please review these documents carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect to this document. Code Components extracted from this document must include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as described in the Simplified BSD License. Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2. Goals and Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3. Definition Of Terms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 4. Protocol Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5. New Neighbor Discovery Flags and Options . . . . . . . . . . 5 5.1. Introducing a Router Solicitation Flag . . . . . . . . . 5 5.2. Refresh Time option . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6. Conceptual Data Structures . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7. Host Behavior . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7.1. Sleep and Wakeup . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7.2. Movement . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8. Router Behavior . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8.1. Router and/or Interface Initialization . . . . . . . . . 7 8.2. Periodic Multicast RA for unmodified hosts . . . . . . . 7 8.3. Multicast RA when new information . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9. Router Advertisement Consistency . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 10. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 11. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 12. Changelog . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 13. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 14. Open Issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 15. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 15.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 15.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 Author's Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 1. Introduction IPv6 Neighbor Discovery [RFC4861] was defined at a time when local area networks had different properties than today. A common link was the yellow-coax shared wire Ethernet, where a link-layer multicast Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 2] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 and unicast worked the same - send the packet on the wire and the interested receivers will pick it up. Thus the network cost (ignoring any processing cost on the receivers that might not completely filter out Ethernet multicast addresses that they did not want) and the reliability of sending a link-layer unicast and multicast was the same. Furthermore, the hosts at the time was always on and connected. Powering on and off the workstation/PC hosts at the time was slow and disruptive process. Under the above assumptions it was quite efficient to maintain the shared state of the link such as the prefixes and their lifetimes using periodic multicast Router Advertisement messages. It was also efficient to use multicast Neighbor Solicitations for address resolution as a slight improvement over the broadcast use in ARP. And finally, checking for a potential duplicate IPv6 address using broadcast was efficient and natural. There are still links, such a satellite links, where periodic multicast advertisements is the most efficient and reliable approach to keep the hosts up to date. However, on for instance WiFi links the performance and reliability for multicast is quite different than for unicast (see for instance [I-D.vyncke-6man-mcast-not-efficient]). Cellular networks which employ paging and support sleeping hosts have different issues (see e.g., [I-D.garneij-6man-nd-m2m-issues] that would benefit from having the hosts wake up and request information from the routers instead of the routers periodically multicasting the information. Since different links types and deployments have different needs, this specification provides mechanism by which the routers can determine whether all the hosts support the RS refresh, and the hosts only employ the RS refresh when instructed by the routers using an option in the Router Advertisement. The operator retains the option to use unsolicited multicast Router Advertisement to announce new or removed information. That can be useful for uncommon cases while allowing using a higher refresh time for normal network operations. The specification does not assume that all hosts on the link implement the new capability. As soon as the router(s) on a link which supports these optimizations, then the updated hosts on the link can sleep better, while co-existing on the same link with unmodified hosts. Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 3] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 2. Goals and Requirements The key goal is to allow the operator to choose whether unicast RS refresh is more efficient that periodic multicast RAs. In addition, an operator might want to be notified whether the link includes hosts that do not support the new mechanism. Potential router implementations can react dynamically to that information, or can log events to system management when hosts appear which do not implement this new capability. The assumption is that host which implement this specification also implement [I-D.ietf-6man-resilient-rs] as that ensures resiliency to packet loss that host initialization. 3. Definition Of Terms The keywords "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. 4. Protocol Overview The hosts include a new flag in the Router Solicitation message, which allows the routers to report to system management whether there are hosts that do not support the RS refresh on the link. If the network administrator has configured the routers to send the new Refresh Timer option, then the option will be included in all the Router Advertisements. This option includes the time interval when the hosts should unicast Router Solicitations. The host maintains the value of the Refresh Timer option (RTO) by recording it in the default router list. A value of zero can be used to indicate that a router did not include a Refresh Timer option. The host calculates a timeout after it has sent a RTO - either per router or per link. If it is maintained per link then the host SHOULD use the minimum Refresh Timer it has received from the routers on the link. The timeout is a random value uniformly distributed between 0.5 and 1.5 times the Refresh Timer value (in order to avoid synchronization of the timers across hosts. [TBD: Add SYNC reference from RFC 4861.] When this timer fires the host sends one unicast Router Solicitation to the router (if maintained per router) or to all the routers on the link (if maintained per link.) Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 4] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 5. New Neighbor Discovery Flags and Options This specification introduces a option used in the RAs which both indicates that the router can handle RS refresh using unicast RA, and a flag for the RS that indicates to the router that the host will do RS refresh if the router so wishes. 5.1. Introducing a Router Solicitation Flag A node which implements this specification i.e., will send unicast RS refresh messages if so instructed by the router, sets the R flag in the Router Solicitation message. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type | Code | Checksum | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |R| Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ New fields: R-flag: When set indicates that the sending node is capable of doing unicast RS refresh. Reserved: Field is reduced from 32 bits to 31 bits. It MUST be initialized to zero by the sender and MUST be ignored by the receiver. 5.2. Refresh Time option A router which implements this specification can be configured to operate without periodic multicast Router Advertisements. When the operator configures this mode of operation, then the router will include this new option in the RA. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type | Length=1 | Refresh Time | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Fields: Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 5] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 Type: TBD ND option code value (IANA) Length: 8-bit unsigned integer. The length of the option (including the type and length fields) in units of 8 bytes. The value 0 is invalid. Value is 1 for this option. Refresh Time: 16-bit unsigned integer. Units is seconds. The all- ones value (65535) means infinite. Reserved: 32 bits. This field is unused. It MUST be initialized to zero by the sender and MUST be ignored by the receiver. 6. Conceptual Data Structures In addition to the Conceptual Data structures in [RFC4861] a host records the received RTO value in the default router list. It also maintains a timeout - either per link or per default router. 7. Host Behavior See Protocol Overview section above. A host implementing this specification MAY also implement [I-D.ietf-6man-resilient-rs]. If there is no RTO in the received Router Advertisements, then the host behavior does not change. However, if RTOs start appearing in RAs after the initial RAs, the host SHOULD start performing RS refresh. As the last router that included RTO options time out from the default router list, the host SHOULD stop sending RS refresh messages. The host MUST join the all-nodes multicast address as in [RFC4861] since the routers MAY send multicast RAs for important changes. 7.1. Sleep and Wakeup The protocol allows the sleepy nodes to complete its sleep schedule without waking up due to multicast Router Advertisement messages and the host is not required to wake up solely for the purposes of performing RS refresh. This assumes that sleepy nodes perform a RS refresh when they wake up. If hosts do wake up due to multicast RAs, then the host only needs to perform a refresh on wakeup if the Refresh timeout has expired while the host was sleeping. Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 6] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 7.2. Movement When a host wakes up it can combine movement detecting (DNA), NUD, and refreshing its Address Registration by sending a unicast RA to each of its existing default router(s). If it receives unicast RA from a router, then it can mark the router as REACHABLE. Note that DNA [RFC6059] specifies using NS messages since many IPv6 routers delay (and multicast) solicited RAs and DNA wants to avoid that delay. Routers which implement this specification SHOULD unicast solicited RAs, hence if a router included the RTO then the host can use RS for DNA. For non-RTO routers the host MAY choose to use NS for DNA as in [RFC6059]. 8. Router Behavior See Protocol Overview section. A router implementing this specification (and including RTO in the RAs) SHOULD also respond to unicast RS messages (that do not have an unspecified source address) with unicast RAs. If a RS message has an unspecified source address then the host MAY respond with a RA unicast at layer 2 (sent to the link-layer address in the SLLAO in the RS, or the link-layer source address of the RS), or it MAY follow the rate-limited multicast RA procedure in [RFC4861]. The RECOMMENDED default configuration for routers is to have RTO disabled. 8.1. Router and/or Interface Initialization This specification does not change the initialization procedure. Thus a router multicasts some initial Router Advertisements (MAX_INITIAL_RTR_ADVERTISEMENTS) at system startup or interface initialization as specified in [RFC4861] and its updates. 8.2. Periodic Multicast RA for unmodified hosts By default a router MUST send periodic multicast RAs as specified in [RFC4861]. A router can be configured to omit those, which can be used in particular deployments. If they are omitted, then there MUST be a mechanism to prevent or detect the existence of unmodified hosts on the link. That be be performed at deployment time (e.g., only hosts which are known to support RTO are configured with the layer 2 security keys), or the routers detect any RSs which do not include the R-flag and report this to system management, or dynamically enable periodic multicast RAs when observing at least one RS without the R-flag. Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 7] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 Note that such dynamic detection is not bullet proof. If a host does not implement RS refresh nor implements resilient RS [I-D.ietf-6man-resilient-rs], then the host might receive a multicast RA (from router initialization or the periodic multicast RAs) without the router ever receiving a RS from the host. Such a host would function as long as the routers are sending periodic multicast RAs. 8.3. Multicast RA when new information When a router has new information to share (new prefixes, prefixes that should be immediately deprecated, etc) it MAY multicast up to MAX_INITIAL_RTR_ADVERTISEMENTS number of Router Advertisements. Note that such new information is not likely to reach sleeping hosts until those hosts refresh by sending a RS. 9. Router Advertisement Consistency The routers follows section 6.2.7 in [RFC4861] by receiving RAs from other routers on the link. In addition to the checks in that section, the routers SHOULD verify that the RTO have the same Refresh Time, and report to system management if they differ. While the host will pick the lowest time and operate correctly, it is not useful to use different Refresh Times for different routers. 10. Security Considerations These optimizations are not known to introduce any new threats against Neighbor Discovery beyond what is already documented for IPv6 [RFC3756]. Section 11.2 of [RFC4861] applies to this document as well. The mechanisms in this document work with SeND [RFC3971]. 11. IANA Considerations A new flag (R-flag) in the Router Solicitation message has been introduced by carving out a bit from the Reserved field. There is currently no IANA registry for RS flags. Perhaps one should be created? This document needs a new Neighbor Discovery option type for the RTO. 12. Changelog Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 8] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 13. Acknowledgements This document has (TBD will be?) discussed in the efficient-nd design team. 14. Open Issues Should we update the DNA procedures [RFC6059]? We can use a unicast RS with this approach since that will result in an immediate unicast RA which would include any updated prefixes. Should we add an epoch to the RS and RA? There is room in the RTO. An epoch can be used to make the RAs smaller - if the epoch number is the same than the RA can exclude all the options (since they haven't changed). 15. References 15.1. Normative References [I-D.ietf-6man-resilient-rs] Krishnan, S., Anipko, D., and D. Thaler, "Packet loss resiliency for Router Solicitations", draft-ietf-6man- resilient-rs-03 (work in progress), April 2014. [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. [RFC2460] Deering, S. and R. Hinden, "Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6) Specification", RFC 2460, December 1998. [RFC4861] Narten, T., Nordmark, E., Simpson, W., and H. Soliman, "Neighbor Discovery for IP version 6 (IPv6)", RFC 4861, September 2007. 15.2. Informative References [I-D.garneij-6man-nd-m2m-issues] Garneij, F., Chakrabarti, S., and S. Krishnan, "Impact of IPv6 Neighbor Discovery on Cellular M2M Networks", draft- garneij-6man-nd-m2m-issues-00 (work in progress), July 2014. [I-D.vyncke-6man-mcast-not-efficient] Vyncke, E., Thubert, P., Levy-Abegnoli, E., and A. Yourtchenko, "Why Network-Layer Multicast is Not Always Efficient At Datalink Layer", draft-vyncke-6man-mcast-not- efficient-01 (work in progress), February 2014. Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 9] Internet-Draft Optional Unicast RS/RA Refresh August 2014 [RFC3756] Nikander, P., Kempf, J., and E. Nordmark, "IPv6 Neighbor Discovery (ND) Trust Models and Threats", RFC 3756, May 2004. [RFC3971] Arkko, J., Kempf, J., Zill, B., and P. Nikander, "SEcure Neighbor Discovery (SEND)", RFC 3971, March 2005. [RFC5175] Haberman, B. and R. Hinden, "IPv6 Router Advertisement Flags Option", RFC 5175, March 2008. [RFC6059] Krishnan, S. and G. Daley, "Simple Procedures for Detecting Network Attachment in IPv6", RFC 6059, November 2010. Author's Address Erik Nordmark Arista Networks Santa Clara, CA USA Email: nordmark@sonic.net Nordmark Expires February 22, 2015 [Page 10] --------------090903010202000500010007--