From nobody Wed Sep 13 07:47:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E21A132DFB for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k3GoUiuEXGuC for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFBE0132949 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([131.111.5.143]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0McmFl-1e9Oo835Hd-00HyjZ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:46:53 +0200 To: Russ Housley Cc: fud@ietf.org References: <8f8528da-d1eb-08c7-b3fe-b1f4febed595@gmx.net> From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: <4666e022-7b57-29e8-28b9-21a7f193f26f@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:46:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:oXvmrvZuqp554DHWYuG9taGE+nZGdcxj95+SZTql6qpW88E5LrL XQpEgCRSgjuAm/S/eC39KTfaXSJ+5AbukZZa1YhENn3KmxcKXB87sP0LxRv1UJdO8b8xgvw eLuHA42NTDBAcZb/BxB2/UFsxQyxJ8mSN5PGHBlSJAbtutllJSK7urQOSSY6TxMoWp0DurK lnApMzWfMORkjAnbJe2Ng== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:okH3xaIxLHk=:EKg4hyGWCcIsNPfey2uRCq /Hj8+n53zK9rLyKT1IZnhLelXeb9j/Ye+MLumQBVyOlz5w2VcEhi9Vh3Q78U7Gz/NMBr90H2C NJQTzbfZ04M3J5fMFy0GxOGafr7+fiJ8jDVg2hPV3wN32aT8geOc1hQgarD1Aft1RYaTognSN 1F8ZOnN9zdpSMSVX9Cfn/UYIotxTmoQVgDCjr1+04iweYC1q/2kFdDVBfRFJU/7vRD7OefgGl kI7bkC/OHkItlfnxt7dSO9gbAf9tcK6TEdJx+3wbl+0HzioX+zpibgFCLGLsChmAPEzb/H6Ba L2bksJDC9AM6uaawbj8pyT/M6knBKCtC3UuAtU/d1mz/9qRqtcXsmv9MGKt44WukM9QmlLRRC y/0DqMOVFte2oBAK7faCuP2AiUehWWCGWxpCjOekbP6oaLSosyd9RG7eM74aeNvRY9++0dXqz hE0bHQkmyc7aS+i9xeyAQFfmwAPaoHkrq2By9mXTC3ovNPrzjtrlUsDa2MUEMeCNQeHjy3lAw d/nJ6r/cZp3Kp2INJ0seEngHI6yN0/mEWw4cRuNf6b7jShIIi3t+vHJGnAZhIIz1t26YZ2JzT WYlrTSl3tgN6Ci+3jQxhhdH5wrtuh475+bhhupfVFKlPYuQUmchhT4UjGtOhvYgFH5nWZFgEk zeJ/iW6Ocq5XuiJcB5+LRTD3BeCaPPA9tnsDfNbtfqSWl58ybZ4pP2mC9rdXcyTp7Mgv/URny H8jgycIu4DM0tM3uje8SFkQK8GwtY/DZV3wUXvJ6Nf/d8vhSZ0DOK27qpDzmZQVB0d+Z4NO6u Fl6N/wxhFlIHrp1oUdks0JiOb/fP2UxuuHZqOto2ZhB9OzlT5w= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:47:00 -0000 Hi Russ, thanks for your feedback. A few remarks below: On 08/14/2017 03:05 PM, Russ Housley wrote: > I'm jumping into this conversation after vacation. I have read the whole thread to date before composing this note. > > >> Firmware Updating Description (FUD) > > The page that Kathleen set up call this group Firmware UpDate (FUD). > > >> Vulnerabilities with Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the >> need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for >> constrained devices. Security experts, researchers and regulators >> recommend that all IoT devices are equipped with such a mechanism. While >> there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today there >> is a lack of an modern interoperable approach of securely updating IoT >> devices. >> >> A firmware update solution consists of several components, including a >> mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices and a manifest >> that provides meta-data about the firmware image as well as >> cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an >> end-to-end fashion. With RFC 4018 the IETF standardized a manifest >> format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect >> firmware packages. > > There are some vital pieces of information that need to be conveyed, but from the above text, it is not clear to me whether they are expected to be in the manifest and meta-data. The vital data includes: > > - a firmware package identifier; > - whether the package is a patch or upgrade; > - the hardware the package needs to run; > - dependencies on other firmware packages; and > - if the package is encrypted to protect intellectual property, the key needed to decrypt it. > ----- The above-listed information is expected to be included in the manifest. Maybe the paragraph should be expanded in the following way: A firmware update solution consists of several components, including * a mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices, * a manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, dependencies on other firmware packages, etc.) as well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion, and * the firmware image itself. With RFC 4018 the IETF standardized a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. ----- Do you think that this is better text? > >> Since the publication of RFC 4108 more than 10 years have passed and >> more experience with IoT deployments have lead to additional >> functionality requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. The >> purpose of this group is to standardize a version 2 of RFC 4108 that >> reflects best current practices. This group will not define any >> transport mechanism. >> >> In 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on >> 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at >> Trinity College Dublin, Ireland on the 13th and 14th of June, 2016. The > > 13-14 June 2016 OK. > >> main goal of the workshop was to foster a discussion on requirements, >> challenges and solutions for bringing software and firmware updates to >> IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that there are challenges >> with lack of regulatory requirements, and misaligned incentives. It is >> nevertheless seen as important to standardize the building blocks that >> help interested parties to implement and deploy a solid firmware update >> mechanism. >> >> In particular this group aims to publish two documents, namely >> * an IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of >> the involved entities, security threats and assumptions, and >> * the manifest format itself. > > The text a few paragraphs ago made me think that rfc4108bis was an output. Why is it not here? > >> This group does not aim to standardize a generic software update >> mechanism used by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead >> focuses on software development practices in the embedded industry. > > This should be expanded to make it clear that JavaScript is not a goal either. > Good point. ----- This group does not aim to standardize a generic software update mechanism used by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead focuses on software development practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions that aim to take the features of scripting languages, such as JavaScript variants like JerryScript, into account are also outside the scope of this group. ----- >> This group will aim to develop a close relationship with silicon vendors >> and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >> >> Milestones >> >> Dec 2017 Submit "Architecture" document as WG item. >> >> Dec 2017 Submit "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. >> >> Jul 2018 Submit "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an >> Informational RFC. >> >> Nov 2018 Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a >> Proposed Standard. > > The text a few paragraphs ago made me think that rfc4108bis was an output. Why is it not here? I didn't use the term "rfc4108bis" but instead called it "manifest format". Ciao Hannes > Russ > From nobody Wed Sep 13 07:51:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FA2132DFB for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NXPE0QMuV017 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2377132949 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([131.111.5.143]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9Jss-1dipsX2cyU-00Cm7h; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:51:11 +0200 To: Michael Richardson , fud@ietf.org References: <525.1503422326@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: <3d78ce15-553e-2423-3185-95e789fca3d5@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:51:10 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <525.1503422326@dooku.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FCQ4WhQE+EmuVJP4kBwnYExhXe7ilMcIBVHzpIKlBWnSBcdOVaa 9DwiZJl04Pn56Vo0z7r9d47YG2JNfU9Snf1toOCsN7rrbRimmsugt3FLclYc8l3lJABmGSp ju5WGjf1DpGXjjxPRZaxBwc0z/YyvKgMerEyl/pss0OJ83+PD5JRw/7s6PxCckHvQopcE4T wJ1lotq4PgPBWVF2Ya4kA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:ofsMZusZHpM=:lKPcTjwrON5g0OZZHPwJ6i THH7ljA0DFLVYyojSo90KzVc8eFUHXXmPSleD41t4W2YkVC5Ntq5zwy+MCFcR4+lree2sToVP IUKi7BYSwXC05N7kDnJM5mV/NLgKP47lg6mT4NDhUsBTn6caEBWHZfbg70WNVrVJzl/ZI2E59 0EL97O5BUjSCKU3W/MdbLTEU55G45+O1zbqROqRXEnQkek0sinb1rnonl8bgtHQAdtrf+tMPO lWohy5NQv1bt/HJpY3OuPbpMVfrLBAMivDVi/JcAsw+LlqdY7/528me6okq5bKpKXtFfnd/K6 VCiLTHbTyZ6Lt3qo8/HzxM3xROx1iw7iSZHuCdAOqCnTEd6LHCgtmklkROg8GRAZro6/33xm0 yXROsRGTthBzm04Lrz0Yod107D3zKXMLjoQSlHwRldIxdcHhTUXZ7nPA3/RbPOsJj6DHSzFPL 9HShwIEnnKz+k5yTHwropxULWux8RQQK9ofjCsBqdIGBG/v2FjiHZH/KYXKemQAM+33KtT4oR /MpFkoMiu2Ujp30/sUxhL/7vtgDha10JnNIWeDJmzEJCv28MmMa9fLAVNeiQe3AXldQ6tksOF Rwlr9+lqmt8Mq8u0mBpObBGKgGeA0tyj8wCNtssipOCvqD3vtf7qfV+d/217i5CNkIRF8PklQ JYtFBmLA/AQHirnysWRve5TAY3tu9BjCgFLg5VKa8+CM7MrB9xb78E65EHG0WYXV3zhNWrRAq 5C2QUITVl/9p/T9VZLy05FIl3Uk3gL8dAJnXRXk+q4dk2I3YwskLQR+pS3K6buHVSXxqQdTj9 KpWg6Z95kR1yy6EHt3H/I4Xw3Ju6yGiRvYFoUiR4ig44om9BQg= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Comment on draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:51:24 -0000 Hi Michael, here is my take on this issue: I don't think that the idea of having multiple parties sign the manifest so that the device can check all the signatures in order to decide whether the vendor, enterprise operator, and regulator "agreed" on deploying a specific firmware update for a medical device. I think that this is a too heavy for an IoT device and too much policy for the device to consider. While this is not impossible to do (even with the proposed manifest format) I believe it is more likely that the party providing the firmware update to the IoT device will make that policy decision (which will typically involve humans). Hence, I think we need to make sure that the common case works well. If someone wants to do research on the other option that's fine for me as well. Ciao Hannes On 08/22/2017 07:18 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > > interesting idea. > > > As an optional feature I don't see a problem with it. > > > How exactly the approval process for applying a firmware update in a > > particular product looks like will of course vary a lot. At the IOTSU > > workshop we had people describing a healthcare setting where any code > > changes need to go through certification first. In smart home > > environments the firmware updates are most likely facing fewer > > regulatory restrictions. > > I think that the regulated (e.g. health-care) situation is different than > the security vs feature update situation. > > In the regulated situation, I can see two ways to go about the process: > a) devices have a built-in policy that requires signatures from X,Y and Z > before they will apply them. > > b) devices have a built-in policy that will accept updates on from Z > (the regulator) > Z has a policy where it only reviews things once X and Y > have signed. Applying the signature from Z may remove the signature > from X and Y (that's a space optimization only). > As the device does not recognize X or Y, it would ignore those signatures. > > Whereas, Thomas is suggesting that when any of X, Y or Z signs, it would > include some kind of flag (probably an OID?) saying the reason for the > update. > (Maybe we'd want to also have optional space for a URL pointing at update notes) > > > On 08/11/2017 12:37 AM, Thomas Eichinger wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> reading draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 I am wondering what people think > >> about adding a component to the manifest classifying the described > >> update as a security and/or feature update (others are imaginable) in > >> a machine-readable manner. > >> > >> The use case I see is that users then can define rules to deploy > >> security only updates in an automated timely fashion while being able > >> to review others before. Similar to Directive.applyImmediately but not > >> forced by the Author of the update. > >> > >> Any opinions on that? > >> > >> Best, Thomas > >> > >> _______________________________________________ Fud mailing list > >> Fud@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud > >> > > > _______________________________________________ Fud mailing list > > Fud@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fud mailing list > Fud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud > From nobody Wed Sep 13 07:52:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47C7133055 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:52:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HdqwnmcewnL8 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 447AE132DFB for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 07:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830A0300564 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:52:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Sysd4lVmt4E9 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [5.5.33.84] (vpn.snozzages.com [204.42.252.17]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BCE630044B; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <4666e022-7b57-29e8-28b9-21a7f193f26f@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:52:08 -0400 Cc: fud@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <991B3FD8-E317-44C0-9A10-44311083B5DD@vigilsec.com> References: <8f8528da-d1eb-08c7-b3fe-b1f4febed595@gmx.net> <4666e022-7b57-29e8-28b9-21a7f193f26f@gmx.net> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:52:09 -0000 Thanks for addressing my comments. Russ > On Sep 13, 2017, at 10:46 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: >=20 > Hi Russ, >=20 > thanks for your feedback. >=20 > A few remarks below: >=20 > On 08/14/2017 03:05 PM, Russ Housley wrote: >> I'm jumping into this conversation after vacation. I have read the = whole thread to date before composing this note. >>=20 >>=20 >>> Firmware Updating Description (FUD) >>=20 >> The page that Kathleen set up call this group Firmware UpDate (FUD). >>=20 >>=20 >>> Vulnerabilities with Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised = the >>> need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable = for >>> constrained devices. Security experts, researchers and regulators >>> recommend that all IoT devices are equipped with such a mechanism. = While >>> there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today = there >>> is a lack of an modern interoperable approach of securely updating = IoT >>> devices. >>>=20 >>> A firmware update solution consists of several components, including = a >>> mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices and a manifest >>> that provides meta-data about the firmware image as well as >>> cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an >>> end-to-end fashion. With RFC 4018 the IETF standardized a manifest >>> format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect >>> firmware packages. >>=20 >> There are some vital pieces of information that need to be conveyed, = but from the above text, it is not clear to me whether they are expected = to be in the manifest and meta-data. The vital data includes: >>=20 >> - a firmware package identifier; >> - whether the package is a patch or upgrade; >> - the hardware the package needs to run; >> - dependencies on other firmware packages; and >> - if the package is encrypted to protect intellectual property, the = key needed to decrypt it. >>=20 > ----- >=20 > The above-listed information is expected to be included in the = manifest. > Maybe the paragraph should be expanded in the following way: >=20 > A firmware update solution consists of several components, including > * a mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices, > * a manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as = a > firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, > dependencies on other firmware packages, etc.) as well as > cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an > end-to-end fashion, and > * the firmware image itself. > With RFC 4018 the IETF standardized a manifest format that uses the > Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. >=20 > ----- > Do you think that this is better text? >=20 >>=20 >>> Since the publication of RFC 4108 more than 10 years have passed and >>> more experience with IoT deployments have lead to additional >>> functionality requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. = The >>> purpose of this group is to standardize a version 2 of RFC 4108 that >>> reflects best current practices. This group will not define any >>> transport mechanism. >>>=20 >>> In 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on >>> 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place = at >>> Trinity College Dublin, Ireland on the 13th and 14th of June, 2016. = The >>=20 >> 13-14 June 2016 > OK. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> main goal of the workshop was to foster a discussion on = requirements, >>> challenges and solutions for bringing software and firmware updates = to >>> IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that there are challenges >>> with lack of regulatory requirements, and misaligned incentives. It = is >>> nevertheless seen as important to standardize the building blocks = that >>> help interested parties to implement and deploy a solid firmware = update >>> mechanism. >>>=20 >>> In particular this group aims to publish two documents, namely >>> * an IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of >>> the involved entities, security threats and assumptions, and >>> * the manifest format itself. >>=20 >> The text a few paragraphs ago made me think that rfc4108bis was an = output. Why is it not here? >>=20 >>> This group does not aim to standardize a generic software update >>> mechanism used by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead >>> focuses on software development practices in the embedded industry. >>=20 >> This should be expanded to make it clear that JavaScript is not a = goal either. >>=20 >=20 > Good point. >=20 > ----- >=20 > This group does not aim to standardize a generic software update > mechanism used by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead > focuses on software development practices in the embedded industry. > Software update solutions that aim to take the features of scripting > languages, such as JavaScript variants like JerryScript, into account > are also outside the scope of this group. >=20 > ----- >=20 >>> This group will aim to develop a close relationship with silicon = vendors >>> and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >>>=20 >>> Milestones >>>=20 >>> Dec 2017 Submit "Architecture" document as WG item. >>>=20 >>> Dec 2017 Submit "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. >>>=20 >>> Jul 2018 Submit "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an >>> Informational RFC. >>>=20 >>> Nov 2018 Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as = a >>> Proposed Standard. >>=20 >> The text a few paragraphs ago made me think that rfc4108bis was an = output. Why is it not here? > I didn't use the term "rfc4108bis" but instead called it "manifest = format". >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 >> Russ >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Fud mailing list > Fud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud From nobody Wed Sep 13 12:59:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E30A132EE2 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4esNiLWntuR for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 966E0132ED1 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F9BE1D3; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 16:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F67480CFA; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 15:59:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig cc: fud@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <3d78ce15-553e-2423-3185-95e789fca3d5@gmx.net> References: <525.1503422326@dooku.sandelman.ca> <3d78ce15-553e-2423-3185-95e789fca3d5@gmx.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Comment on draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:59:04 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > and regulator "agreed" on deploying a specific firmware update for a > medical device. I think that this is a too heavy for an IoT device and > too much policy for the device to consider. While this is not > impossible I agree with you, and that's situation (b) that I described. > to do (even with the proposed manifest format) I believe it is more > likely that the party providing the firmware update to the IoT device > will make that policy decision (which will typically involve humans). >> b) devices have a built-in policy that will accept updates on from Z >> (the regulator) >> Z has a policy where it only reviews things once X and Y >> have signed. Applying the signature from Z may remove the signature >> from X and Y (that's a space optimization only). >> As the device does not recognize X or Y, it would ignore those >> signatures. The question is, can the signatures from X and Y *remain* for the purposes of auditing? Removing them then becomes an option, rather than a requirement. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlm5jgUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVnOQf8CvmwV02+wg6hHl/sP3QLm5+QmOUiqJj1BYutuxubnVbnWw/YrewwFQGH u+zkfSm9za/i1YOq8z8YoRR45Cqh46k8ZFi0UTZDpVXSO5+VKS9Obf+cHAzqb00U F3IZPRkrAb5CViAfUaX0FEL+X4W8ciQZW1h3KsQDsJnNhfajOyMJmUhQHFhV/Xc3 bOVbh8JgDvIbL95Vg2bS2z7U56b41jJYVcD1ddWtKnSon6BdV+MJF/kYBBZZ0CiN 6nHQNFve8tCgJJwYHDamjdKrz53wSzhw7JBBlQiEtcW7tz7/JSw5JaIq07hPRlI5 +p5Uv73fOL3fwqvCIKxYEpWT2AwTSQ== =wTyD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Sep 13 14:02:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA21513305C for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2017 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM4PR08MB1171; H:AM4PR08MB2836.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR08MB2836AC6C1608244AE937346AEA6E0AM4PR08MB2836eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2017 21:02:03.0921 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR08MB1171 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Comment on draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 21:02:09 -0000 --_000_AM4PR08MB2836AC6C1608244AE937346AEA6E0AM4PR08MB2836eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this comes down to a matter of configuration. Devices need to be co= nfigured to either: 1. require at least one signature to match 2. require all signatures to match I don't see a reason not to support both modes of operation. Brendan ________________________________ From: Fud on behalf of Michael Richardson Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 8:59:01 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: fud@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Fud] Comment on draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > and regulator "agreed" on deploying a specific firmware update for a > medical device. I think that this is a too heavy for an IoT device an= d > too much policy for the device to consider. While this is not > impossible I agree with you, and that's situation (b) that I described. > to do (even with the proposed manifest format) I believe it is more > likely that the party providing the firmware update to the IoT device > will make that policy decision (which will typically involve humans). >> b) devices have a built-in policy that will accept updates on from Z >> (the regulator) >> Z has a policy where it only reviews things once X and Y >> have signed. Applying the signature from Z may remove the signature >> from X and Y (that's a space optimization only). >> As the device does not recognize X or Y, it would ignore those >> signatures. The question is, can the signatures from X and Y *remain* for the purposes of auditing? Removing them then becomes an option, rather than a requireme= nt. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM4PR08MB2836AC6C1608244AE937346AEA6E0AM4PR08MB2836eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think this comes down to a matter of configuration. Devices need to be= configured to either:

  1. re= quire at least one signature to match
  2. require all signatures to match


I don't see a reason not to support both modes of operation.


Brendan

From: Fud <fud-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca= >
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 8:59:01 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig
Cc: fud@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Fud] Comment on draft-moran-fud-manifest-00
 

Hannes Tschofenig <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    > and regulator "agreed" on deploying a spe= cific firmware update for a
    > medical device. I think that this is a too heavy fo= r an IoT device and
    > too much policy for the device to consider. While t= his is not
    > impossible

I agree with you, and that's situation (b) that I described.

    > to do (even with the proposed manifest format) I be= lieve it is more
    > likely that the party providing the firmware update= to the IoT device
    > will make that policy decision (which will typicall= y involve humans).

    >> b) devices have a built-in policy that will acc= ept updates on from Z
    >> (the regulator)
    >> Z has a policy where it only reviews things onc= e X and Y
    >> have signed.  Applying the signature from = Z may remove the signature
    >> from X and Y (that's a space optimization only)= .
    >> As the device does not recognize X or Y, it wou= ld ignore those
    >> signatures.

The question is, can the signatures from X and Y *remain* for the purposes<= br> of auditing?  Removing them then becomes an option, rather than a requ= irement.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Wo= rks
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachme= nts are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the c= ontents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank = you. --_000_AM4PR08MB2836AC6C1608244AE937346AEA6E0AM4PR08MB2836eurp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 15 08:29:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0197E132713 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2017 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i5mNmSLMKXu2 for ; Fri, 15 Sep 2017 08:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga01.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D531874E95BF4A12804915794BCD1039intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Fud] A few questions / observations X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:29:50 -0000 --_000_D531874E95BF4A12804915794BCD1039intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 wrcgICAgICAgICBJcyBpdCBwb3NzaWJsZSBmb3IgdGhlIGltYWdlIHR5cGUgdG8gYmUgYW4gZXhp c3Rpbmcg4oCcbWFuaWZlc3TigJ0gc3VjaCBhcyDigJxwYWNrYWdlc+KAnSBvciDigJxidW5kbGVz 4oCdPw0KDQrCtyAgICAgICAgIElzIHRoZSBwdXNoIG1vZGVsIHN1cHBvcnRlZCAoY2xvdWQgc3Rv cmFnZSBwdXNoZXMgdXBkYXRlIGZpbGUgcHJvYWN0aXZlbHkpPw0KDQrCtyAgICAgICAgIFdoeSB3 YXMgQVNOLjEgc2VsZWN0ZWQgYXMgdGhlIGVuY29kaW5nIGZvcm1hdD8gKFdoeSBub3QgQ09TRT8p DQoNCsK3ICAgICAgICAgSXQgaXNu4oCZdCBjbGVhciBob3cgdGhlIG1hbmlmZXN0IGFuZCB0aGUg 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--_000_D531874E95BF4A12804915794BCD1039intelcom_-- From nobody Tue Sep 19 16:59:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FA7133011 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JdKspuVannjJ for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.stillroot.org (mail.stillroot.org [176.9.132.253]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F417C132944 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.stillroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E5D42F6C; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:59:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at ba.stillroot.org Received: from mail.stillroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.stillroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JIHVY9ruyIfx; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:59:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (unknown [IPv6:2602:306:36e3:3580:1d7a:6a27:c0ff:e24f]) by mail.stillroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A94084269D; Wed, 20 Sep 2017 01:59:16 +0200 (CEST) From: "Thomas Eichinger" To: "Hannes Tschofenig" Cc: fud@ietf.org Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: <9A771B0B-A182-4C29-B283-99B8282560FA@riot-os.org> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6090) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Comment on draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 23:59:57 -0000 Hi Hannes, First, I'm sorry for the massive latency. I'd be ok with having it as an optional feature but maybe bound to an optional textual description. Meaning if you provide a textual description also provide a machine readable classification or only a classification one or neither. What do you think? Totally agree with you regarding certification and regulation. The proposed addition in my opinion just allows for a wider variety of update strategies while some others might just ignore it. Best, Thomas On 22 Aug 2017, at 4:33 PDT(-0700), Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > interesting idea. > > As an optional feature I don't see a problem with it. > > How exactly the approval process for applying a firmware update in a > particular product looks like will of course vary a lot. At the IOTSU > workshop we had people describing a healthcare setting where any code > changes need to go through certification first. In smart home > environments the firmware updates are most likely facing fewer > regulatory restrictions. > > Ciao > Hannes > > > > On 08/11/2017 12:37 AM, Thomas Eichinger wrote: >> Hi, >> >> reading draft-moran-fud-manifest-00 I am wondering what people think >> about >> adding a component to the manifest classifying the described update >> as a >> security and/or feature update (others are imaginable) in a >> machine-readable >> manner. >> >> The use case I see is that users then can define rules to deploy >> security >> only updates in an automated timely fashion while being able to >> review >> others before. Similar to Directive.applyImmediately but not forced >> by the >> Author of the update. >> >> Any opinions on that? >> >> Best, >> Thomas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fud mailing list >> Fud@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud >> From nobody Mon Sep 25 11:07:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CA413451F for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 11:07:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eM3_2BZp8QYb for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 11:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B34AE1330B2 for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 11:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([80.92.122.248]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lkwc9-1dOIph1LgD-00ajnQ for ; Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:07:20 +0200 To: fud@ietf.org From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:07:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FI/0TPaq4b3SO9mWNBpfPaDHnP+9VJx/8AwpZ9e8xOH0bw+x94O UPGYQDRtrNfE/BgcwBk6IDxOEDNYZeac1DAkGSD/+sHlA173w1xlNQssw/8TSvuQnKrad3d /uyQMCAaFSE+1FBX2l/xDtQh2jw8mBNrURG+QTASjec38gAtUShHvwPBINEDCa+0QGwJr9c 2GhxIvOG1ylHi/rkNCP7A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:X+s44UFeSfE=:NsTwYZr4GeFKlulQI+1/Ot c/n/a3ohaxU6fWdg7Wppcu+zKYaZXP0Sn7G/Y0z22S4YlPKez/sfaXisojRmGEui0yPcewqnO ObUAzHXOkdlOyO62EWW0XYY8G67lYMLcOQCv989flyM81ILfw81+Fpxp6x1UqPMKH0aEvkUO8 xVqwOt8bPKPP2LBYJa7U5VqHUbmNwb6qAc5r8LrpsQ/pxmyPHrSeCaiq1oXKCWFu4ohSrV+cs 7w37aPx02LrW/udCNA3/Xwcf/aDqzvozTZq62anuorULAqW3cWU7HOk2al31D0QkfIRCmn2Lx VLqTiG7Ff8zF2zwlvN9eHRSS0UxsUA2qc2G3VVgg0WwR0QizANZzg5DAPopsxoP8S866NhgRO mbJUuOB64d0uzm0Usa8MDpQkIRRFOYzpX+1neDJKqWO7P7cm2ZOBai4flLqJ+yloybPUfY7i2 0jU3tsE0bE6kntP+rXYrrBlDdOKPxoswiAsIhGRuTHhptFpIwdqzUjn/8CEcjXGrW8HtS+v3g arE+n9QnN/7eMKD/6qYxiX8SUC0NP7F1mnx1rwiLL77Ev9wobIrhVoQubra51lfrtCZIjdpwN 8+9B0dw5iA4+OUin+dmTeGAiu06YYUm1psZlPqMCr/OfYrpAoCzlaLWunFQjqXSZ6aNo+pHJx 3zAwuQGbCC/KOye885ZY6ry7KC++WfMP2i1jSth5nlY0nUbtaG88JK0fHe+eRyWG05/BkYEMq lwa7g6dSmHoUCax4XCPp6IXzwZBEibVlIA1DfWG51vDEcezrqlT44IcFJRKE7fdSa4SFPIUx1 YAKAaP5EGeYTuXL/pPk81B3P5bDgqUyhi65LUqSWVGa4CiXeEM= Archived-At: Subject: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 18:07:25 -0000 Based on the feedback following the IETF meeting in Prague I have updated the charter text. Ciao Hannes ---- Firmware Updating Description (FUD) [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things).] Vulnerabilities with Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained devices. Security experts, researchers and regulators recommend that all IoT devices are equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today there is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating IoT devices. A firmware update solution consists of several components, including * a mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices, * a manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, dependencies on other firmware packages, etc.) as well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion, and * the firmware image itself. With RFC 4108 the IETF standardized a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. Since the publication of RFC 4108 more than 10 years have passed and more experience with IoT deployments have lead to additional functionality requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. The purpose of this group is to standardize a version 2 of RFC 4108 that reflects best current practices. This group focuses on defining a firmware update solution for Class 1 devices, as defined in RFC 7228, i.e., IoT devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. This group will not define any transport mechanism. In 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at Trinity College Dublin, Ireland on the 13-14 June 2016. The main goal of the workshop was to foster a discussion on requirements, challenges and solutions for bringing software and firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that there are challenges with lack of regulatory requirements, and misaligned incentives. It is nevertheless seen as important to standardize the building blocks that help interested parties to implement and deploy a solid firmware update mechanism. In particular this group aims to publish two documents, namely * an IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the involved entities, security threats and assumptions, and * the manifest format itself. This group does not aim to standardize a generic software update mechanism used by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead focuses on software development practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions that aim to take the features of scripting languages, such as JavaScript variants like JerryScript, into account are also outside the scope of this group. This group will aim to develop a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Milestones Dec 2017 Submit "Architecture" document as WG item. Dec 2017 Submit "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. Jul 2018 Submit "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an Informational RFC. Nov 2018 Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard. Additional calendar items: Mar 2018 Release initial version of the manifest creation tools as open source. Apr 2018 Release first version of manifest test tool suite as open source. Jun 2018 Release first IoT OS implementation of firmware update mechanisms as open source. From nobody Tue Sep 26 04:23:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A5E13293A for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 04:23:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7i6MPZ3v7Wl for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 04:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C6EE120720 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 04:23:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v8QBNWmd028393; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 13:23:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.20.10.9] (ip-109-45-0-30.web.vodafone.de [109.45.0.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3y1dql6SKMzDLJD; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 13:23:31 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 13:23:30 +0200 Cc: fud@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 528117810.150504-a651ecf62de196421fd28acabb86fb8e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 11:23:36 -0000 > Firmware Updating Description (FUD) > [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of = Things).] SUIT is so much better than FUD. (When we created the DICE working group, which was about =E2=80=9CImprovem= ents to DTLS for the Internet of Things=E2=80=9D, we got some strong = feedback that people weren=E2=80=99t going to install =E2=80=9CIDIOT=E2=80= =9D modifications into their systems. I think the same applies for =E2=80=9CFUD=E2=80=9D. And the suits will = quickly agree with installing SUIT :-)) > The > purpose of this group is to standardize a version 2 of RFC 4108 I think this (part of the) sentence can be misunderstood, and it does = not mesh with the rest of the charter. The possible misunderstanding of this sentence is that this is going to = be a =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s fix the bugs in and make some tweaks to RFC = 4108=E2=80=9D WG. The rest of the charter does not say this, but misunderstanding that = sentence may make people read that rest under the presumption that = bugfixing/tweaking RFC 4108 is all that is going to happen. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Sep 26 09:42:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD58C1330B3 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:42:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y57PBozt_uuj for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDFD3132025 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([80.92.122.248]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MTfZc-1doBkb23QO-00QOwP; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:41:57 +0200 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: fud@ietf.org References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: <5578ca84-bd41-3864-db3a-bbc7f8cd9177@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:41:56 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:32TcnvR24z1d7pWoit2NpmvBfYZX4u5u4jaAND1Q/4jYbepHiVn c1AmY09OdZPndhjLWxDhSytKA26IY1sPWGOZoaplFAboVEiAAGAfyXMvDYDIFLuk0Rr65Ey c99mFwa1RQbB1biYJJYe7tNSRZoSy9bt08pihEr/rTbXP4WhvbU8vwwMYb2y9Gf4vQSn4SU X/1zhdCxsmfWkj89YnhUg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:l19gE5QUsi4=:9h+0ACR8gTp/+GEuRCFZ09 I2ptjLQUjiidmS3A+RusXltxPQC87hBCYYm1uV2VXSuG6pvnvMazHZII7GQyd9upyns5oQuC7 Wghv4inv0K0HiRXKbbIgrQ1SwRDRK1Gj8A9NJTvidrufL6o/L4WXuVmzBvRwi0yqZ0UduAiG6 LGHzZU9UzhydAE9Lr6EL646YoMzxR6ZDQCFK7+ofZGSjdIFgBz0thrdQRcoTvG6i9NGjmYppN 0ERqHSedZEwUZ6GPJP1ofY+L40wqkCu+TRkUzL1FkDoxEc+eSS4RRDNH+EIlaIRpegp17ngg4 kcVQV7fGwSrk8v/3CSfqH/Vblo5IGCgVBZg4UP9Syao/2EBlDEpbn/ImIzwBUKZ+AAtQpyDFe 1erZQqJ2QZocwyRQ+HiZ/jEsk2ejIlQCwZKZnFNFtfnarFZIH06EcSLHYBzoPvJx6Zd7psZR5 yip6ZZz60bV2jJXhZB7gSFr9ebJrWtcYNs7DMLJpLmkkGW5w2O/+HNsVtJRPrnboTJAPTMKmB c8DjXdKbm3zw0NC56oCCzPr08lwdyR3MtXYVezkpS/cU7PE/zoyoGpW0Jg21At+VivntS7V9J GfuJ/05SouzQAU3I9IVBTCREeuQm21oun3qKZuGYN+sHHU9b3JNLsJ/ahZAY1CtW4BgTztfKi iAwDvDnxfGcy3LTDtLpCLdqyRvYtvE8oVcoAmWvQpl0d4jbPXIALWHx5/cThAgILvkPyPdxQ0 NPFs36A+03ZQj+PEu5+tnJxQb/LZwtsmAUzkhPOWi/oyEE1f7O4SaOYlBDVKgvb+SA3QRgBD5 hU6rKbWhFJI0rjdPxuDRP6LBLs/9Z2EwHqEKEODthZAyoLPJZI= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:42:09 -0000 Hi Carsten for us RFC 4108 served as a great starting point since it contains a lot of well thought components. But that's just us. So, the question is what updated sentence would you suggest? Ciao Hannes On 09/26/2017 01:23 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Firmware Updating Description (FUD) >> [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things).] > > SUIT is so much better than FUD. > > (When we created the DICE working group, which was about “Improvements to DTLS for the Internet of Things”, we got some strong feedback that people weren’t going to install “IDIOT” modifications into their systems. > I think the same applies for “FUD”. And the suits will quickly agree with installing SUIT :-)) > >> The >> purpose of this group is to standardize a version 2 of RFC 4108 > > I think this (part of the) sentence can be misunderstood, and it does not mesh with the rest of the charter. > > The possible misunderstanding of this sentence is that this is going to be a “let’s fix the bugs in and make some tweaks to RFC 4108” WG. > > The rest of the charter does not say this, but misunderstanding that sentence may make people read that rest under the presumption that bugfixing/tweaking RFC 4108 is all that is going to happen. > > Grüße, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Fud mailing list > Fud@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud > From nobody Tue Sep 26 09:45:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069A51342DB for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7VfMALXqBVhD for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D30C21330AE for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([80.92.122.248]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lj25i-1dLuKn0jmw-00dJoP; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:45:19 +0200 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: fud@ietf.org References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: <88205e11-2b12-d88a-5613-4a52e865afc5@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:45:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:TVvKMx/nhEICtrse3lLaRlMz7P/KpdtxTuSKSW18doPVOaNoq5y IeN6PJxK1XhpPfXPfPZUjgTJaNFfIyl4yhqbh8XaD9VffSx/HGGrZoWX1Kskr8QnMCB1I/P uoCCl9EB0iM1ycFzxqlknDmfWyksJi5yaC4HK7xQoHO9G0uvwgPjbVJ0RaOVOFWMUUu5l4p foOIf8+mIfD3z8lDQrqQQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:DWqh5Af7nyo=:2S1APZji1VhWKyhM3XvW6C PUTFMbEqz6P0GfX8+3kI155DaHidb9pg8onH2jBGVQuLW/8xiLmO+viIqgjjaBBOPKeZWI+e0 zPqdMuyJYxU9DWnxVKfZfO9pftq+C7g6cC4gps+UjpZWa6hMKG/rLI6JizeQHtC00KjyYSFTw YIhhCasG3igw69Xm1B1FZzw90XQun0NZIxJQrpSy4K1VlbTauAMK/qG4LXnoGiVT++xqdprGI jBkFXnXgX0smLNlaaWZ23v+JMpTRXISc3qDGLmPyLTKiYS3fY5YlrvkIEoS8KOhr70WjmINte AaLsaEQ7r20deYNu5tCcpN9KOqfl5Tuz6AG9um02WMYzXlIHvam95OkER5fUPvlLVVCyE8RzP I06HYe3V3YBDDKESu/iquiQM5tLzA/srSlFANgsSIXlqn5R+YQQuBCum2TcotFW4NRParnVjl 2fH4yo3WHVaCjBpgpRdIHBKPpGQk+O2F8QJQFqxo4ynMM7tkCM2kHpsI0y8gI4AmGTeEkDdSB P+6OD3v8UDUdbxrlrIf4ezh+Rjl2zkoias3BWdq0S/eohk49GrV6Z19yY2X4Q2b9bjzenT8Cy MtYLprwkB9zU5THDchilwYa9RtIYK1HpqJDozyxj3rP9fsFGMNMHUFnLoDmaqQ8moVVr2gGUp x+13fNsW5+cpk2cdFEBDIgfzuEqBw2RDJfXa1j9qW6Umf4zIxHN+GTmwe9UgTZA4+hsJxShmP wLiPsnOejmAM//20cb5HWVwm5yahJIGsXdToSG6fGxF+Hc/eSxnSNk/TMaYiTX7+NfGSK6y0r YF380oQMUyoaJSeJKSqUAYWMbDrTWmzh7mXOS3nHmnxlLXitmg= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:45:30 -0000 FWIW: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things) is totally fine for me. Finding the right name for a group or a protocol is always tricky. On 09/26/2017 01:23 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Firmware Updating Description (FUD) >> [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things).] > SUIT is so much better than FUD. > > (When we created the DICE working group, which was about “Improvements to DTLS for the Internet of Things”, we got some strong feedback that people weren’t going to install “IDIOT” modifications into their systems. > I think the same applies for “FUD”. And the suits will quickly agree with installing SUIT :-)) > From nobody Tue Sep 26 09:54:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BF81342F7 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:53:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54FlhlFuGGh6 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gcc01-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cy1gcc01on0131.outbound.protection.outlook.com [23.103.200.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B3211342DB for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:53:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nist-gov; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=tH0d5gAtgieLaOr7l6iw5kZbGGm8lXcbzRomjG1gI88=; b=sF7LCfAKmBwj9jvhalybrVlJuV57hLqPnMPlEE+fFv53QEI9Y+WzCv+oYZQ1pDLBAT7fyAAm46OcxgGRQd90m6eL8uiWjiVHaPP0usH7273Lm6EqE2L+BpZPlot4j+dXBANt7cDo/b+j0PP8DzevIHs7U3wcBz+SFjefzSXxiTU= Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.141) by CY4PR09MB1494.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.77.7; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:53:52 +0000 Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) by CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) with mapi id 15.20.0077.011; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:53:52 +0000 From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" To: Hannes Tschofenig , Carsten Bormann CC: "fud@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Fud] Revised Charter Text Thread-Index: AQHTNikt7Pq4Bg4OrEyBBc9r7k3jU6LHB3AAgABZ54CAAAEPMA== Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:53:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> <88205e11-2b12-d88a-5613-4a52e865afc5@gmx.net> In-Reply-To: <88205e11-2b12-d88a-5613-4a52e865afc5@gmx.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=david.waltermire@nist.gov; x-originating-ip: [129.6.224.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR09MB1494; 6:Ensec5hwfYewgEutrbQuLU7MSuCS++Rx0Q2pH+cFuv+qnEpCU9Bjq2fbjHaVGYL6ESWRu5aOJsoIHazI+EjTtiCz5fsdr7ZaNv4AHXyDX5a7+R/tAbnI6X3lmMyFLEb6BsuY1ARs/g1aYVHEMp58OY2TVBTypSxRZWopFMxDL/DdQOUxIgIR5zcGulJICVRkxbN/oa1Vb+npV2ndApTWgWFKKGvylWLKVGyzpP96v23GxBUzDwyrDjl2zkenyg8T+WwB29U7AzSV1iFHuswU+QGaSWVQJRF1QPFacjyi5SXfIc0W7cTa0HTUlB06m/yyMFpbfRf5GXhjUMiE3Jj1ag==; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR09MB1494; H:CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Sep 2017 16:53:51.9966 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR09MB1494 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:53:56 -0000 SWYgd2UgZG8gbWFrZSB0aGUgY2hhbmdlIHRvIFNVSVQsIHdlIHdpbGwgbmVlZCB0byByZXF1ZXN0 IGEgbmV3IERhdGF0cmFja2VyIHBhZ2UuIENoYW5naW5nIHRoZSBuYW1lIHRvICJGaXJtd2FyZSBV cGRhdGluZyBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbiIgZG9lcyBub3QgcmVxdWlyZSBhIG5ldyBEYXRhdHJhY2tlciBw YWdlLg0KDQpGV0lXLCBvbmNlIHRoZSBSRkNzIHdlIHByb2R1Y2UgYXJlIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCwgdGhl IG5hbWUgRlVELCBTVUlULCBvciBhbnl0aGluZyBlbHNlIHdpbGwgYmUgbGVzcyByZWxldmFudCBh bmQgZG9lcyBub3QgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBtZW50aW9uZWQgaW4gYW55IG9mIHRoZSBwcm9kdWNlZCBk b2N1bWVudHMuIFRoaXMgbWFrZXMgbWUgbGVzcyBjb25jZXJuZWQgYWJvdXQgd2hhdCB3ZSBjYWxs IHRoZSBXRy4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCkRhdmUNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0t LQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBGdWQgW21haWx0bzpmdWQtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9m IEhhbm5lcyBUc2Nob2ZlbmlnDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAyNiwgMjAxNyAx Mjo0NSBQTQ0KPiBUbzogQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIDxjYWJvQHR6aS5vcmc+DQo+IENjOiBmdWRA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtGdWRdIFJldmlzZWQgQ2hhcnRlciBUZXh0DQo+IA0K PiBGV0lXOiBTVUlUIChTb2Z0d2FyZSBVcGRhdGVzIGZvciBJbnRlcm5ldCBvZiBUaGluZ3MpIGlz IHRvdGFsbHkgZmluZSBmb3IgbWUuDQo+IEZpbmRpbmcgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IG5hbWUgZm9yIGEgZ3Jv dXAgb3IgYSBwcm90b2NvbCBpcyBhbHdheXMgdHJpY2t5Lg0KPiANCj4gT24gMDkvMjYvMjAxNyAw MToyMyBQTSwgQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+PiBGaXJtd2FyZSBVcGRhdGluZyBE ZXNjcmlwdGlvbiAoRlVEKQ0KPiA+PiBbQWx0ZXJuYXRpdmUgcHJvcG9zYWw6IFNVSVQgKFNvZnR3 YXJlIFVwZGF0ZXMgZm9yIEludGVybmV0IG9mDQo+ID4+IFRoaW5ncykuXQ0KPiA+IFNVSVQgaXMg c28gbXVjaCBiZXR0ZXIgdGhhbiBGVUQuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiAoV2hlbiB3ZSBjcmVhdGVkIHRoZSBE SUNFIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAsIHdoaWNoIHdhcyBhYm91dA0KPiDigJxJbXByb3ZlbWVudHMgdG8g RFRMUyBmb3IgdGhlIEludGVybmV0IG9mIFRoaW5nc+KAnSwgd2UgZ290IHNvbWUgc3Ryb25nDQo+ IGZlZWRiYWNrIHRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIHdlcmVu4oCZdCBnb2luZyB0byBpbnN0YWxsIOKAnElESU9U 4oCdIG1vZGlmaWNhdGlvbnMgaW50byB0aGVpcg0KPiBzeXN0ZW1zLg0KPiA+IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhl IHNhbWUgYXBwbGllcyBmb3Ig4oCcRlVE4oCdLiAgQW5kIHRoZSBzdWl0cyB3aWxsIHF1aWNrbHkg YWdyZWUNCj4gPiB3aXRoIGluc3RhbGxpbmcgU1VJVCA6LSkpDQo+ID4NCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEZ1ZCBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QNCj4gRnVkQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vZnVkDQo= From nobody Tue Sep 26 09:59:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074191342DB for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFDsA7oI-OQx for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 892BB1330AE for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v8QGxm6O001674; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.27.22.22] (unknown [195.37.142.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3y1nHm18KrzDLRt; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <5578ca84-bd41-3864-db3a-bbc7f8cd9177@gmx.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:59:46 +0200 Cc: fud@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 528137986.615691-5015d66d4d643d58bc7f03edee824267 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <946B5D4B-C81A-44B3-9337-E9A7AB3F737D@tzi.org> References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> <5578ca84-bd41-3864-db3a-bbc7f8cd9177@gmx.net> To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:59:55 -0000 > On Sep 26, 2017, at 18:41, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: >=20 > Hi Carsten >=20 > for us RFC 4108 served as a great starting point since it contains a = lot > of well thought components. But that's just us. There is no doubt about RFC 4108 being a good input. Let me try explain my point in an analogy: if the QUIC WG had said it = wants to do TLS 1.4, there might have been about the same = misunderstanding (and QUIC certainly does use TLS as a great starting = point). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > So, the question is what updated sentence would you suggest? >=20 > Ciao > Hannes >=20 > On 09/26/2017 01:23 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> Firmware Updating Description (FUD) >>> [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of = Things).] >>=20 >> SUIT is so much better than FUD. >>=20 >> (When we created the DICE working group, which was about = =E2=80=9CImprovements to DTLS for the Internet of Things=E2=80=9D, we = got some strong feedback that people weren=E2=80=99t going to install = =E2=80=9CIDIOT=E2=80=9D modifications into their systems. >> I think the same applies for =E2=80=9CFUD=E2=80=9D. And the suits = will quickly agree with installing SUIT :-)) >>=20 >>> The >>> purpose of this group is to standardize a version 2 of RFC 4108 >>=20 >> I think this (part of the) sentence can be misunderstood, and it does = not mesh with the rest of the charter. >>=20 >> The possible misunderstanding of this sentence is that this is going = to be a =E2=80=9Clet=E2=80=99s fix the bugs in and make some tweaks to = RFC 4108=E2=80=9D WG. >>=20 >> The rest of the charter does not say this, but misunderstanding that = sentence may make people read that rest under the presumption that = bugfixing/tweaking RFC 4108 is all that is going to happen. >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Fud mailing list >> Fud@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fud >>=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Sep 26 10:09:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337B11342EE for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:09:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m5m86GOW89kM for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F299413428A for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 10:09:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v8QH9T9w009549; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 19:09:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.27.22.22] (unknown [195.37.142.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3y1nVx5dWczDLRy; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 19:09:29 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 19:09:28 +0200 Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "fud@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 528138568.25437-1fc0613419e333653772edc3ba812018 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> <88205e11-2b12-d88a-5613-4a52e865afc5@gmx.net> To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 17:09:34 -0000 On Sep 26, 2017, at 18:53, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) = wrote: >=20 > FWIW, once the RFCs we produce are published, the name FUD, SUIT, or = anything else will be less relevant and does not need to be mentioned in = any of the produced documents. This makes me less concerned about what = we call the WG. While that is theoretically true, that is not the way things work out in = practice =E2=80=94 people still call TLS =E2=80=9CSSL=E2=80=9D because = that was the name the technology was referred to before 1999 (1996, = actually). We will need to do marketing for the WG's output *before* it = has an RFC number, and being able to call it SUIT in that marketing does = help. (A new data tracker page is relatively low effort compared to fixing up = marketing material.) (And no, we shouldn=E2=80=99t have a FUD WG producing the SUIT protocol, = just as we shouldn=E2=80=99t have suits producing FUD :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (Says someone who is not innocent for calling a WG CoRE that then went = on producing the CoAP protocol.) 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VGhhbmsgeW91Lg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_2BF4654C42604C7C8DD5CF892628711Barmcom_-- From nobody Tue Sep 26 16:05:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9254134499 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olNb72Nqv9-i for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35FA813202D for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BA02009E for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 19:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170878189F for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 19:05:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: fud@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <88205e11-2b12-d88a-5613-4a52e865afc5@gmx.net> References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> <88205e11-2b12-d88a-5613-4a52e865afc5@gmx.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 23:05:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain > FWIW: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things) is totally fine for > me. Finding the right name for a group or a protocol is always tricky. It's really an awesome name. My koodos to whomever came up with it. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlnK3T4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVBxQgAoaYFNL6iAuDHeh+6J46ATaa45zuJFTMhCI9GRqdlFQtqQrKTiBBtE7rs Bxx1nWMgPTyj2AhHctdXOQii5vBNArgl69sjbXlvnWGYYpWvFunv29+4LeFq1qKI 9txjOJTLyMikkdMXeDr6hNqTQppMHMGKFXDCg8lw+iA2FklNlHM81XwhpyWPFdxM RblAVj3KQZTu1lhbnJsVwK9JjiD8W6SbC+LiwLB8lIXKm04vkw9qBMOlLj3/tzRO Xqt405xJzupcfpEFrbRuA00nWUo5Q6HpNjJxvbakUVssBtssvkAiCFckFX+iZJpE WbeIUFv8xygSgBLjC5IxSkvoEQGJdA== =Dw7l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Sep 26 17:01:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECB913306F for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 17:01:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFO1ZNo82vbh for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 17:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga14.intel.com (mga14.intel.com [192.55.52.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4F64133032 for ; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 17:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fmsmga004.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.48]) by fmsmga103.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Sep 2017 17:01:44 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.42,442,1500966000"; d="scan'208,217";a="316584716" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by fmsmga004.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 26 Sep 2017 17:01:44 -0700 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.116]) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.45]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Tue, 26 Sep 2017 17:01:43 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Brendan Moran CC: "Fud@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Fud] A few questions / observations Thread-Index: AQHTLjdsLe1oeSwl+Em8FCdFITDsKqLHtvcAgAA0MwA= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 00:01:43 +0000 Message-ID: <88B5ACDC-AEB9-4611-B3D5-8A3C720E2795@intel.com> References: <2BF4654C-4260-4C7C-8DD5-CF892628711B@arm.com> In-Reply-To: <2BF4654C-4260-4C7C-8DD5-CF892628711B@arm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.21.0.170409 x-originating-ip: [10.241.231.84] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_88B5ACDCAEB94611B3D58A3C720E2795intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] A few questions / observations X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 00:01:47 -0000 --_000_88B5ACDCAEB94611B3D58A3C720E2795intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U2VlIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgY29tbWVudHMgaW5saW5lIGJlbG93Lg0KLU5lZA0KDQpGcm9tOiBCcmVu ZGFuIE1vcmFuIDxCcmVuZGFuLk1vcmFuQGFybS5jb20+DQpEYXRlOiBUdWVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1i ZXIgMjYsIDIwMTcgYXQgMTo1NCBQTQ0KVG86ICJTbWl0aCwgTmVkIiA8bmVkLnNtaXRoQGludGVs LmNvbT4NCkNjOiAiRnVkQGlldGYub3JnIiA8RnVkQGlldGYub3JnPg0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtG dWRdIEEgZmV3IHF1ZXN0aW9ucyAvIG9ic2VydmF0aW9ucw0KDQpIaSBOZWQsDQpJ4oCZdmUgcGxh Y2VkIG15IGNvbW1lbnRzIGlubGluZS4NCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrIQ0KDQpC ZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQpCcmVuZGFuDQoNCg0KT24gMTUgU2VwIDIwMTcsIGF0IDE2OjI5LCBTbWl0 aCwgTmVkIDxuZWQuc21pdGhAaW50ZWwuY29tPG1haWx0bzpuZWQuc21pdGhAaW50ZWwuY29tPj4g 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 914B0134902 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 02:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([80.92.122.248]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MCggg-1e5M5g0hxi-009Q1i; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:43:46 +0200 To: Brendan Moran , "Smith, Ned" Cc: "Fud@ietf.org" References: <2BF4654C-4260-4C7C-8DD5-CF892628711B@arm.com> From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:43:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2BF4654C-4260-4C7C-8DD5-CF892628711B@arm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:V+bh82s7MgKatoAqlCTkUowTGs0ARFsPQkmroBHOiv8jPr07H21 KN0Gvgwyu0nR5UnAGHKtK3Q461IPkmkruebY9RD8J2ed8DZxvBbRuPlHF7zwFc1h4YBTzpW mtll6Tjs2h5Civfd2+Hb/0s1vxxSH9snDsYakrsq5KMQJZ9UQ2umH3oUvvUF2hJcox8crPk 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few questions / observations X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 09:43:57 -0000 One minor remark: On 09/26/2017 10:54 PM, Brendan Moran wrote: >> ·         Is the push model supported (cloud storage pushes update >> file proactively)? > > Certainly. This is one of the expected use-cases, however manifest must > precede payload. The way to convey manifests and firmware images is actually independent from the manifest format itself. This group aims to standardize the manifest format. The different ways to transport the manifest/firmware image to the devices can happen using a variety of protocols and in different flavors, including push and pull approaches. We are using LwM2M as a way to transport the firmware/manifest, for example. Ciao Hannes From nobody Wed Sep 27 14:17:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8915D1350D9 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 14:17:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CeSQRPFUb0rs for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 233601350D3 for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA8430058D for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 17:17:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 55_A-t3E-Avh for ; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 17:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.20.1.237] (h60.74.129.40.static.ip.windstream.net [40.129.74.60]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 244893002A3; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 17:17:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_169ABCC2-F08E-41A9-96FE-9DFDCFBA2516" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 17:17:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: fud@ietf.org To: Carsten Bormann References: <598d9373-4a4a-01c3-33e8-34ed1beceaa2@gmx.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Fud] Revised Charter Text X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 21:17:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_169ABCC2-F08E-41A9-96FE-9DFDCFBA2516 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> Firmware Updating Description (FUD) >> [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of = Things).] >=20 > SUIT is so much better than FUD. >=20 > (When we created the DICE working group, which was about = =E2=80=9CImprovements to DTLS for the Internet of Things=E2=80=9D, we = got some strong feedback that people weren=E2=80=99t going to install = =E2=80=9CIDIOT=E2=80=9D modifications into their systems. > I think the same applies for =E2=80=9CFUD=E2=80=9D. And the suits = will quickly agree with installing SUIT :-)) I am chairing two groups where the WG got a different name than the BoF. = In both cases, the mail list continues to have the BoF name, and it = causes confusion. If the WG gets called something other than FUD, I = strongly recommend closing this mail list and opening one that is named = the same as the WG. Russ --Apple-Mail=_169ABCC2-F08E-41A9-96FE-9DFDCFBA2516 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Firmware Updating Description (FUD)
[Alternative = proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things).]

SUIT is so much better than = FUD.

(When we created the DICE = working group, which was about =E2=80=9CImprovements to DTLS for the = Internet of Things=E2=80=9D, we got some strong feedback that people = weren=E2=80=99t going to install =E2=80=9CIDIOT=E2=80=9D modifications = into their systems.
I think the same applies for = =E2=80=9CFUD=E2=80=9D.  And the suits will quickly agree with = installing SUIT :-))

I am chairing two groups where the WG got a = different name than the BoF.  In both cases, the mail list = continues to have the BoF name, and it causes confusion.  If the WG = gets called something other than FUD, I strongly recommend closing this = mail list and opening one that is named the same as the = WG.

Russ


= --Apple-Mail=_169ABCC2-F08E-41A9-96FE-9DFDCFBA2516-- From nobody Fri Sep 29 04:00:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: fud@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41EEA134290 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 04:00:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38rtHztxrexi for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 04:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A6E3132D49 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 04:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.91.203] ([80.92.122.248]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M4nt7-1d8gtD41Wv-00yvV3 for ; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:00:27 +0200 To: "Fud@ietf.org" From: Hannes Tschofenig Openpgp: id=071A97A9ECBADCA8E31E678554D9CEEF4D776BC9 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:00:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:yUBNJpNOw5Q3W+rCRFsiyCBEhBSdwcsU6bscqits382TCAvakfM qIvlAno7KrLRkg48XDxvfF7xunpcYQX7rB+aoea8W4q7a1rh9Xy2ajSgXo/Zolwv5eZq3pn AMlWLAAIzoyFsngw74iPazCLJB7XgB2ht4Gnxti8vWZ1Q/Xn/lCt1QLFASTXgVD/FdH6Tjt MNUYPbed6mVVjDaYaBRcg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:GczvObEPbP8=:beLLX1nQSAPW+hxkipuAAj uDzkpc7Gjn4I4N+zBZNROvRzcrYSpd0fXjpVQdjAjB2seG0DSlgrXDQMPUKStT2uZQFjvyQsb Q65T9RloQHdNfvlUpgmBxczSGmBsKnelD+QNc0WDzUgdcAMuJkMVQnEu6/K1dq+VEfbOOkRta hSghHzzXA0ELMdC88VVgGb/5t6k5fQ5g0hm2aLkzHn4OodTAvz+Z/DLOLcLJFBY66gpxKaItM ZV0GvmStUM/RJtOPYTs0gCjQaEWVyaKzz12xPm8MoyEzS2hYCBAWJseyQRODT0ALGGWHkazl3 lBRmt7FJdyEetuoTKZU0ifN0EA8wXKDdxZ/xAhCSVk33QF8Wf3b9O8XxPJeh86RMv7Ng3J6+0 3cn58nrP/Uzf1k2QuuAet0fLCh4yL6Ci04ECs4huMRFz36nF1xBstURPGDhKNjIwWEFbEqnDx 59Q+EOag8i96HxfifeZQTZrtflzMtwOL2+CwDUTvsU7BXzWPs/NMRWZAUZo/c4SuKQiWAB6h/ UmlDOmqQOX5VVhBd2zvcC2ZU5+AT/J9Avjk4NcYQ37zMRusD45M7UuuxqXWbAuLA0Pc578yMd FY67Tl0sZO45x8ppXkA7476gjXfI0UIbsHE6sAR82brKYXRMQL/DddRS+4W6iKO5Gib3R1vx2 hK6APZfXSC1KzHbnrohDt/5bUol33Sxyx6DImU3C2XW2vyjI0toCOqOTtHJXp4C9ZLB1Cf3lt 9Ha9365s0gjSpJK/ssLaqkH930fkx3CImXAdI8umQa+rQikQRTi4nkHE8PbLGo8z9H7sXykvs 2e5MKoqoY1h46LMRRVWWrzlzHM6cUJJSkgeQmVnJZyxRFot5kw= Archived-At: Subject: [Fud] Editorial Charter Update X-BeenThere: fud@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: FUD - Firmware Updating Description List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:00:32 -0000 Irit Arkin, my co-worker, helped to improve readability of the charter text. Below is the updated charter text: ----- Firmware Updating Description (FUD) [Alternative proposal: SUIT (Software Updates for Internet of Things).] Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained devices. Security experts, researchers and regulators recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating IoT devices. A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: * A mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices. * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. * The firmware image itself. With RFC 4108 the IETF standardized a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with IoT deployments has lead to additional functionality, requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. The purpose of this group is to standardize a second version of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. This group focuses on defining a firmware update solution for Class 1 devices, as defined in RFC 7228, that is - IoT devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. This group will not define any transport mechanisms. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at Trinity College Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was to foster a discussion on requirements, challenges and solutions for bringing software and firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that there are challenges with lack of regulatory requirements and misaligned incentives. It is nevertheless seen as important to standardize the building blocks that help interested parties implement and deploy a solid firmware update mechanism. In particular this group aims to publish two documents, namely: * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the involved entities, security threats and assumptions. * The manifest format itself. This group does not aim to standardize a generic software update mechanism used by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead focuses on software development practices in the embedded industry. Also out of scope are software update solutions that aim to take the features of scripting languages, such as JavaScript variants like JerryScript, into account. This group will aim to develop a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Milestones Dec 2017 Submit "Architecture" document as WG item. Dec 2017 Submit "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. Jul 2018 Submit "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an Informational RFC. Nov 2018 Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard. Additional calendar items: Mar 2018 Release initial version of the manifest creation tools as open source. Apr 2018 Release first version of manifest test tool suite as open source. Jun 2018 Release first IoT OS implementation of firmware update mechanisms as open source.