From nobody Tue Mar 2 03:33:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22A23A1628 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 03:33:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1PwD2bViniuj for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 03:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E4413A1627 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 03:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QPC0FF1UARI7M@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 05:33:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QPC00M0OANG1K@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 03:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 02 Mar 2021 03:30:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 03:33:16 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Fernando Gont , Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-id: <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210224] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 11:33:21 -0000 On 2/27/21 7:00 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Hello , Phillip, > > On 27/2/21 14:15, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > [....] >> >> TERM is in a similar situation. We are going to need to deal with a >> lot of cross cultural issues and even within the Anglosphere. >> >> Take the OK hand gesture. Until a few years ago it had no facsist >> associations whatsoever. Then a group of racists on 4-Chan decided to >> start using the gesture 'pretending' it to be a racist gang sign. And >> of course the minute that racists started flashing it as a gang sign, >> it became a racist gang sign. And of course, deliberately insulting >> people and then telling them they must treat it as a joke or they >> will 'look stupid', is simply a way to double down on the insult. >> Bully, bully. swagger, swagger, sneer, sneer, oh why are we being >> cancelled? >> >> >> Meaning is determined by usage. Who is using the term, why they are >> using it, matter. > > I'm not sure what this means.  That said, given the number of > countries and cultures on this globe, I doubt anyone could really > expect that people should be aware about stuff like the stuff you're > referencing. > > For instance, I don't know what's 4-chan (some online forum?), or even > what you call the "ok sign" -- here we probably have at least to > different signs for it. > > In a multi-cultural environment, you probably *need* to apply Postel's > principle.   That is exactly right!   The thing is, the OK symbol still has no "fascist" association. It was not racists, it was a group of trolls that wanted to see what ridiculous thing they could get people to believe. These trolls did things like convince people to put their iphones in a microwave oven and so they decided to have a go at the unfortunate trend to label everything "racist".   It became "Operation O-KKK". As one 4-channer said, "Leftists have dug so deep down in their lunacy, we must force [them] to dig more." In an effort to recover lost pride, said leftists realized they should probably stop digging and they decided to say that it wasn't them that were fooled, it was really actual racists that got fooled and the innocuous symbol really became racist. They still can't admit they got pranked.   This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It has become a weapon to attack opponents. And that's where it becomes dangerous. "Who is using the term" matters, as PHB said. What it boils down to is: I can use it because I'm good, when my opponent uses it, though, it's racism straight up.   Which brings us back to TERM. We need to avoid the temptation to include these sorts of subjectively "bad" terms. Especially when they are so specific to one subset of one culture. Instead of selectively applying a rule-- "who is using this term?"-- we should assume the best in what we hear, and we should be careful in what we say, something like that. >> And yes, there is a partisan political dimension to this. I didn't >> remove the terms 'master' etc.' from the Mesh specifications because >> I was concerned they might cause offense. I removed them because I >> want to make absolutely clear that I oppose the fascist seditionists >> who stormed the US Capitol on January 6th. > > I believe that our ability to do useful work may be endangered if our > documents are going to become "political statements". > > (quite the contrary, there reason for which I'd be keen to avoid > specific terms is for the possibility that might offend e.g. a fellow > colleague)   Yes, these stunning and brave gestures of language policing have no place here. >> When a bully appears and attempts to appropriate the US flag as his >> own personal banner, there has to be resistance. Defining the exact >> means by which the US flag is to be worshiped by taking away the >> career of the man who defied him was a way of claiming sole ownership >> of the interpretation of the nation's symbols. Which was of course >> the reason we needed to demolish the monuments to their ideology. > > This thread was started in the hopes of fostering diversity and > inclusiveness in the IETF. > > I don't think discussion of USA internal political affairs is of use > for such purpose.   Amen!*   Dan. * https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/01/06/amen-awomen-rep-cleaver-religion-gender-column/4142111001/ -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Tue Mar 2 11:31:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F7103A0E2D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:31:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xewP2EdLFszI for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 016AE3A0E28 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 11:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD51B5C0117 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Mar 2021 14:31:34 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=91opt04md6P5HB+NVqFf8mvp2BVYI4INAwf/tMDuM zA=; b=k5C7pW1Bp7v0y32VdTiP7OM0qXp6strbP7dofc8UGYwFIFctXbfyQ9Bpu YOOAPJt9Bpq98D3HvBQ/lvt1s2JeoDBZMhFRhQRZ4sjp3xCXs1VZ96lcTrLdvPpU u/TlQZUWP8QLh0DK8+ByN7QLVEDmhgrrVR8BIyay5UilywIzjn6kgGp/mzrYer00 cQUtenHTrkpZIXa7ZM9mW+xX/UDRJeUs47QCFkXVDa8fQyoMAHfwgYSSA6TDG/DP /LX2hydGY1Uye8bBlItfXpqYd9CZSH7g4S8f+Xx3MnlKp6dLeJN4u47EW9x9AnFk YDtlT9xP2M65Y6OgvybMHer/b3kTg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledruddttddguddulecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedthe efgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecukfhppedutdek rddvvddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmh grihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1C078240054 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:31:34 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:31:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 19:31:39 -0000 On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >   This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of > folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK > gesture > but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use > it. It > has become a weapon to attack opponents. I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks. Keith From nobody Tue Mar 2 13:37:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C47E3A10D8 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:37:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hjdaq42t1hhO for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21BCF3A10D7 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse75.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.75] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx135.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lHChs-000oqq-Ed for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 22:37:29 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Dqr7m4l2zznMf for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.18] (helo=xmail08.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lHCho-0005im-HL for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 13:37:24 -0800 Received: (qmail 23792 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2021 21:37:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.106]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.95]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail08.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 2 Mar 2021 21:37:21 -0000 To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:37:24 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8EC8AC05B4C77FA314C1A2C7" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.75 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu7cT wKPWyy+00EuC9wOBvlbKLMyCg2dNZJAK3gbNiIydSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVYdpmG+4wmS2bfkHlT9Uxp5otTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WVsvCwp YJpdb4B2L4Z5wQyKkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgGI409Uexq5zP1TE60A1w5b 7Vdg1PejGHEkkvMdd3VPb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAltNB9Mj9nCE019R6b/Lk5zEOtp+q3yU+z72+fnpodgpDf4QA ylyZ0B4zlGKByRJyP7zuA9HqzANh7RJd9VxOHSlmMRr+w2X69ygMahiTQMBd6AmfsEnjkCbgIoEh 9veHpjheMPxghFsjIwINNqkbXC8q7fBXfwiTkcwbv0dB5b3yNR3oW5YiBYO7UVjw0gdRPrII++x6 YSSQfv2n7TJ4De1knRDjH7QY7Fm+gQ0M40rBtaly/uPaPGs4IuAYIIDnnmIMx2SsJMcYcfaTa1Z5 siYOS4qqjKkTvrhEiORgsEtrMS+4ayUpOtEhdxekWDmK9g== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 21:37:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8EC8AC05B4C77FA314C1A2C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: > >>   This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of >> folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK >> gesture >> but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use >> it. It >> has become a weapon to attack opponents. > > I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about > creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".   Because > people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. > to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers > believe will harm their interests.   It's often easier to attack > people personally than to attack their technical contributions, and we > want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks. It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too. -- Christian Huitema --------------8EC8AC05B4C77FA314C1A2C7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote:

On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:

  This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of
folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture
but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It
has become a weapon to attack opponents.

I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks.

It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too.

-- Christian Huitema


--------------8EC8AC05B4C77FA314C1A2C7-- From nobody Tue Mar 2 13:53:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF0A3A1126 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:53:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UJWaT9zng7qe for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f180.google.com (mail-yb1-f180.google.com [209.85.219.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E67C3A112D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 13:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f180.google.com with SMTP id d9so22331558ybq.1 for ; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 13:53:47 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TE6uMvcDyUc5gnM1Q3pPR9eJaXXLgeED5CNqJu6Z200=; b=RurEeTnyWCO0p2Xvi2N628HFJjt0gcsZ7eWL6VWWewBweKenmJV1qmCno8Oearhnb0 QLToV05X0WgYAycFQEo9HX3SKj1aGZl7M57j6dpjzj5vwMNcCwZbWFdSb1XWJNP2c4d/ yXvp+uwk64zxgl5dPD9KEVZ1qUFGm8WLEzcUAvAJfxvYG3/idm1P6dSaG+ftZbHKtws0 BOd2V9Ea45db3vE14Q2dB4xAHzYVGSEGvR6hqr10+MbF235j/sqnVNQePPAo5fYph7+9 4BumL+c3J1BvMlFhQEVjdYwP4Ki5pvOgjnEnGOcnAByiOQ5EAt3uzwzId9Mmr3j8jD3Y IZzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530y36SFLlmk2i7qQzTmrlsmFmLFvr/3OesumGZYna7Llkp0Meah zowN11Sgn/8YZ8MzXjizjDGCSibQzsXGrPaM/8iigwc6p6aM8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyM0Qvy0/qmPWoVtNLfW26gk74YiF7zTaJSV6zA4EZ3mJk8HIv3XU0bEP2D358kKFr2mOpAlIoDIcD3oqkdFA4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:aa6d:: with SMTP id s100mr36773408ybi.523.1614722026497; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 13:53:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 16:53:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: Keith Moore , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cce8c405bc94c40d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 21:53:49 -0000 --000000000000cce8c405bc94c40d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > > On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: > > This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of > folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture > but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It > has become a weapon to attack opponents. > > > I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about > creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents". Because > people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. to > demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will > harm their interests. It's often easier to attack people personally than > to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful > about legitimizing such attacks. > > It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. > In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground > check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to > signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a > consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service > members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it > out of habit, and I suppose others do too. > > -- Christian Huitema > The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular group of people decided to subvert that meaning. And no, I do not accept Dan's interpretation of events here. If you have a group of swaggering bullies discussing ways to 'own the libs' who come up with the idea of 'pretending' that a certain sign has a racist interpretation, the outcome is that other groups of people with swastikas are going to end up using that sign with precisely that racist meaning. There is a phrase 'whistling Dixie'. Dan Emmett's lyrics aren't explicitly racist but the context in which they were presented is the runaway slave pining for his former bondage. It is an anti-abolitionist song. And 'whistling Dixie' means making a coded racist reference whose meaning can be denied by the swaggering bully who knows full well that it is not being missed. Implausible deniability is a real thing. --000000000000cce8c405bc94c40d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema &l= t;huitema@huitema.net> wrote:=
=20 =20 =20

On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote:

On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:

=C2=A0 This = is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of
folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture
but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It
has become a weapon to attack opponents.

I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".=C2=A0=C2=A0 Because people can and will use such wea= pons for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It's often easier to attack people persona= lly than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks.

It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too.

-- Christian Huitema


The issue is not the fact= that it is a legitimate gesture with a widespread legitimate use. What cre= ates an issue is that a particular group of people decided to subvert that = meaning.

And no, I do not= accept Dan's interpretation of events here. If you have a group of swa= ggering bullies discussing ways to 'own the libs' who come up with = the idea of 'pretending' that a certain sign has a racist interpret= ation, the outcome is that other groups of people with swastikas are going = to end up using that sign with precisely that racist meaning.

There is a phrase 'whistling Dixie= '.=C2=A0Dan Emmett's lyrics aren't explicitly racist but the co= ntext in which they were presented is the runaway slave pining for his form= er bondage. It is an anti-abolitionist song. And 'whistling Dixie' = means making a coded racist reference whose meaning can be denied by the sw= aggering bully who knows full well that it is not being missed.

Implausible deniability is a real th= ing.

=

--000000000000cce8c405bc94c40d-- From nobody Tue Mar 2 14:21:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBB03A1315; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3GiVLyXJd4Sg; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-f172.google.com (mail-yb1-f172.google.com [209.85.219.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9EAC3A1314; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f172.google.com with SMTP id p193so22407165yba.4; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 14:21:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DmpE4I4dvaprx/ke61WRnuSOUi92PUkGIQxzBg5Z/AI=; b=WzEj4UP69KtWEA/ewgaKiBBgVpMNQIZ1jcgXWFnEk9Otw3dF1g8swyfZpZdXJE6MJR v43fG/XpTPdk4xnSTF+kAbgdMrExoETExdP2MzPhBd13hfXOTxko9DIlLLcmHSPGMcf0 EzeocdwNKXldrrU7oJlGdhPcWzw/kqB1hlkNXcBGgjs4IiP6nYO3uVS0RoBLX2imDV/Z 2i0kA7Rm9D3i/OnRSDlJ6XQjftQ38p0qGex0/seCYCdeX00WDuDNlsIcjzyC+5jjUAQR AQmkP2rMJdpp146JjmWv6+69ORJfulbhubBE3ahiVNstsG3wHqhOh1m4cXoO9dWWPggn LhUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531CLvEXHkb13F238O9qXwQzgWx+/ljE74NXhX7/pSCAFkD/6Cc6 D7kVx4WnrMjuyyVMA+rxfg7PmMs8YcM/QKoiKaStDiqAXWs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3gGVE7Zyib4/VanewhQ7t7UJO/jfNd3uEGG5eJtK6JaI+zKIC0Lj07kalH1hht5D1/lP+dGkZvWdmtk0XzQA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2ac3:: with SMTP id q186mr35556784ybq.213.1614723684061; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 14:21:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:21:13 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Wroclawski Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Theresa Enghardt , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore , "ietf@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099547305bc95276e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 22:21:27 -0000 --00000000000099547305bc95276e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 10:38 PM John Wroclawski wrote: > > > > On Feb 25, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so there i= s > definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. However, > usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic papers= . > And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to papers, bu= t > at least in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. > >> > >> One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to > assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a > prerequisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output. > > > > Nevertheless, it is in general hard to get RFCs recognised as valuable > for tenure and promotion purposes, compared to more traditional publicati= on > streams such as highly-rated journals. That's one reason we did > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1672308.1672315 but I'm not sure it has > had much impact. > > Seconding Brian=E2=80=99s comment (and Keith=E2=80=99s in the next msg), = the DOI effort > and CCR articles were excellent, necessary first steps, but by themselves > they=E2=80=99re not likely to change the landscape very much, I think. > > The issue is more fundamental. Academia wishes to claim that its highest > value publications are =E2=80=9Coriginal research=E2=80=9D, and consensus= -driven standards > with the stated goal of codifying existing or emerging practice don=E2=80= =99t > =E2=80=9Clook=E2=80=9D like that. My weasel words are because both sides = of this stereotype > are sometimes truly true and sometimes, well, not. But it's the perceptio= n, > and it=E2=80=99ll be really hard to get the academic publication world to= weigh > RFCs heavily without changing it in some way. > > Which, I think, might possibly be doable. Academia does have other values > - you can get brownie points for a good survey paper, for example, becaus= e > you=E2=80=99re "systematizing knowledge" - and increasingly (although not= as much > as one might hope) work that validates research results by showing the > they=E2=80=99re repeatable is seen as publishable. But the trick here is = to frame > this as a case that RFCs and IETF participation advance some substantive > academic value - not just to argue that they follow the =E2=80=9Cform=E2= =80=9D of academic > publication by being peer-reviewed and having DOIs. I=E2=80=99m not sure = if > anyone=E2=80=99s every quite tried to do this, but it seems at least pote= ntially > possible. > +1 I have the profound luxury of not needing to play the academic game for either recognition or for research funding. As far as I am aware, I am the only person currently working on TKI. I don't expect that to change soon. The way to fix Academia is to look at the funding structures that support it. MIT tenure committees don't look at the number of publications in academic journals because they think them a good way to assess the intellectual calibre of a candidate. They use them because that is the yardstick they know that DARPA, NSF, etc use. And they use them because they can't currently think of a better one. So the way to fix the problem is to fix Academia. Which is something that might well take half a century or more to fully realize. But a start is being made. The UK recently made a requirement that all government funded research has to be published in journals that are open access. While discussing this with one of the politicians behind the move I pointed out that they were going to be facing opposition from UK academics who were likely to find it harder to get positions at prestigious overseas universities. Turned out that was a feature, not a bug. If we had a digital environment that allowed a better understanding of the intellectual contributions being made by individual academics than publications in academic journals, there would be a lot of interest from all the stakeholders. --00000000000099547305bc95276e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 10:38 PM John Wroclawski &l= t;jtw@isi.edu> wrote:


> On Feb 25, 2021, at 4:21 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good point about publications. RFCs are publications, too, so = there is definitely some ROI in (co-)authoring an RFC as an academic. Howev= er, usually the entire process takes much longer than writing academic pape= rs. And I'm not sure how academia at large values RFCs relative to pape= rs, but at least in the part that I know, I would say they're valued. >>
>> One thing we did to increase the value of RFCs to academics was to= assign them DOIs, which at least for universities in some geos is a prereq= uisite to even recognizing RFCs as academic output.
>
> Nevertheless, it is in general hard to get RFCs recognised as valuable= for tenure and promotion purposes, compared to more traditional publicatio= n streams such as highly-rated journals. That's one reason we did https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1672308.1672315 but I= 9;m not sure it has had much impact.

Seconding Brian=E2=80=99s comment (and Keith=E2=80=99s in the next msg), th= e DOI effort and CCR articles were excellent, necessary first steps, but by= themselves they=E2=80=99re not likely to change the landscape very much, I= think.

The issue is more fundamental. Academia wishes to claim that its highest va= lue publications are =E2=80=9Coriginal research=E2=80=9D, and consensus-dri= ven standards with the stated goal of codifying existing or emerging practi= ce don=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Clook=E2=80=9D like that. My weasel words are beca= use both sides of this stereotype are sometimes truly true and sometimes, w= ell, not. But it's the perception, and it=E2=80=99ll be really hard to = get the academic publication world to weigh RFCs heavily without changing i= t in some way.

Which, I think, might possibly be doable. Academia does have other values -= you can get brownie points for a good survey paper, for example, because y= ou=E2=80=99re "systematizing knowledge" - and increasingly (altho= ugh not as much as one might hope) work that validates research results by = showing the they=E2=80=99re repeatable is seen as publishable. But the tric= k here is to frame this as a case that RFCs and IETF participation advance = some substantive academic value - not just to argue that they follow the = =E2=80=9Cform=E2=80=9D of academic publication by being peer-reviewed and h= aving DOIs. I=E2=80=99m not sure if anyone=E2=80=99s every quite tried to d= o this, but it seems at least potentially possible.
+1

I have the profound luxury of= not needing to play the academic game for either recognition or for resear= ch funding. As far as I am aware, I am the only person currently working on= TKI. I don't expect that to change soon.

The way to fix Academia is t= o look at the funding structures that support it. MIT tenure committees don= 't look at the number of publications in academic journals because they= think them a good way to assess the intellectual calibre of a candidate. T= hey use them because that is the yardstick they know that DARPA, NSF, etc u= se. And they use them because they can't currently think of a better on= e.

So the way to fix the = problem is to fix Academia. Which is something that might well take half a = century or more to fully=C2=A0realize. But a start is being made.

The UK recently made a requirement= that all government funded research has to be published in journals that a= re open access. While discussing this with one of the politicians behind th= e move I pointed out that they were going to be facing opposition from UK a= cademics who were likely to find it harder to get positions at prestigious= =C2=A0overseas universities. Turned out that was a feature, not a bug.
If we had a digital en= vironment that allowed a better understanding of the intellectual contribut= ions being made by individual academics than publications in academic journ= als, there would be a lot of interest from all the stakeholders.

<= /div>

=C2=A0
--00000000000099547305bc95276e-- From nobody Tue Mar 2 14:35:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C593A1357 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmailteam.com header.b=Vd9jMGLW; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=rhr1vwVf Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PAARWwNpyN_u for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE07F3A1355 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1238E1738 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap7 ([10.202.2.57]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 02 Mar 2021 17:35:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= fastmailteam.com; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to :references:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=BxzkRbQ IUbHm4+lVbqZ5Pc85EdDapKRE6hH8zBZ2c/A=; b=Vd9jMGLWYGOgOZ78rEYtDOb GKhSGKjaozxZ0N0X99G9a9VgfnvtYofEdOQIhUfq7F4My57wH1tr7dVRmakaWuWg rPcRQkLuD5aS8h8PhLEYV5tgwzmqSqXMP+0rJpLMziOo7MPgQr5c6eKjjnJ1d+pF w/ryD/Slfh2rmKjUwOkjC8sNzI1iwETZDnooQPGR6OGtlnjLj74aeGRkyMQIRrcD QdVXrKk1mB2Q7Fze2hSKnmpBURv3iOZoShbiu7sfkF/k3i0lg0ezlJeDx6mEaGi0 lRchmdEr4DsU70axZ5DsbFoXdTn0Dqeli7lyeDEO8+vxLEtIOtGUtTPZTm3+7ZA= = DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=BxzkRb QIUbHm4+lVbqZ5Pc85EdDapKRE6hH8zBZ2c/A=; b=rhr1vwVfHbwBg0XjSemqyi U0ZWMkhrjhBRo7Qe/M4ETrfGyXSqSLPMYT7s5Ae0GwMHNlL5e/l4oB6JSLRYyO5i zUCo0qmVaysHj6dmfj+D8S68TgC5FzY820VhC09MmEx/PkEUafCR2IUOs6v32tzm V/+bNzxUD8q6OjmdyHHfsnJsBAqbqe+R3XASCdlvWAY6zjO/BXye/DuZFi/+A7lD b5wSfTqwCf/3DmJdazqtSh64pNANAMtMRBNnEkcMxQiEsKKktbIV4GtJsuwO5UFk GIs217MfrmRjgdBtBu0416iQ0Y9Ummdv+d10akyFutgdbHjOnIVzXnEEvAjlj4Rw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledruddttddgudehfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrg dtreerreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdeurhhonhcuifhonhgufigrnhgrfdcuoegsrhhonhhg sehfrghsthhmrghilhhtvggrmhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvdduueeihe fgvdehueeujeejuedugfeigfevteefleetfeffgfdtjeejgfeuuddvnecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghrohhnghesfhgrshhtmh grihhlthgvrghmrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 57D053603DF; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:35:01 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-206-g078a48fda5-fm-20210226.001-g078a48fd Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <47ad1293-5bb9-4792-9618-8d043c65959d@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 09:34:40 +1100 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=afac767ec8a24eedac7ad129afa1629e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 22:35:06 -0000 --afac767ec8a24eedac7ad129afa1629e Content-Type: text/plain On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, at 08:53, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema wrote: >> On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >>> On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> >>> >>>> This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of >>>> folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture >>>> but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It >>>> has become a weapon to attack opponents. >>> >>> I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents". Because people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests. It's often easier to attack people personally than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks. >> It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too. >> -- Christian Huitema > > The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular group of people decided to subvert that meaning. That is a totally unworkable standard. By that standard, if "the racists"[tm] decided to go all in on the "I like my coffee" memes (CONTENT WARNING: search at your peril) then me slurping down my large coffee without milk becomes a racist and vaguely homoerotic act with no change of intent or behaviour from me. Bron. -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --afac767ec8a24eedac7ad129afa1629e Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, at 08:53, Phillip Hall= am-Baker wrote:
=


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at = 4:37 PM Christian Huitema <hui= tema@huitema.net> wrote:

On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, K= eith Moore wrote:

On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:

=
<= div>  This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of
folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture
but now people feel empowered to sele= ctively condemn people who use it. It
has become a weapon to attack opponen= ts.

I think the lesson for IET= F and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapo= ns for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests.   It's often easier to attack people personal= ly than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks.

= It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true= in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too.

-- Christian Huitema


The issue is not the fact that it is a legiti= mate gesture with a widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is = that a particular group of people decided to subvert that meaning.
That is a totally unworkable st= andard.

By that standard, if "the racists"[tm] decided to g= o all in on the "I like my coffee" memes (CONTENT WARNING: search at you= r peril) then me slurping down my large coffee without milk becomes a ra= cist and vaguely homoerotic act with no change of intent or behaviour fr= om me.

Bron.

--
 = Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
=   brong@fastmailteam.com


--afac767ec8a24eedac7ad129afa1629e-- From nobody Tue Mar 2 15:46:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F953A1476 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:46:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hu_rIofoZAro for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D2933A1472 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QPD0FFEW8OS83@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 17:46:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QPD00MH28KN1K@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:43:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:46:01 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <47ad1293-5bb9-4792-9618-8d043c65959d@dogfood.fastmail.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pRy65I106Ems69LJVMrAyA)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> <47ad1293-5bb9-4792-9618-8d043c65959d@dogfood.fastmail.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210224] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 23:46:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_pRy65I106Ems69LJVMrAyA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 3/2/21 2:34 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, at 08:53, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema > > wrote: >> >> On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote: >> >>> On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >>> >>> >>>>   This is why it is important to set the record straight on >>>> this bit of >>>> folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the >>>> OK gesture >>>> but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who >>>> use it. It >>>> has become a weapon to attack opponents. >>> >>> I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious >>> about creating new weapons that can be used to attack >>> opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for >>> purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are >>> promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their >>> interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than >>> to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very >>> careful about legitimizing such attacks. >> >> It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on >> veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the >> standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the >> mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was >> true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely >> used in regular communication between service members to signal >> that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of >> habit, and I suppose others do too. >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> >> >> The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a >> widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular >> group of people decided to subvert that meaning. > > That is a totally unworkable standard.   Exactly! There was no issue created by authoritarian communist dictatorships deciding to subvert the meaning of "democratic" or "people's republic". We all knew that the Federal Republic of Germany was the good guys and the German Democratic Republic was the bad guys and we all still understood what "democracy" meant. > By that standard, if "the racists"[tm] decided to go all in on the "I > like my coffee" memes (CONTENT WARNING: search at your peril) then me > slurping down my large coffee without milk becomes a racist and > vaguely homoerotic act with no change of intent or behaviour from me.   We can't allow some fringe group of people-- be they PHB's swaggering bullies or the leftists who got punked by 4chan trolls-- to decide what words mean for the rest of us.   The OK sign is used as part of a standard ground check in the French air force. It's also used by divers to tell each other that things are just fine underwater. And if some rando somewhere thinks it's the symbol of white supremacy then just hope he's not flying your plane or diving with you.   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_pRy65I106Ems69LJVMrAyA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

On 3/2/21 2:34 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote:
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, at 08:53, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote:

On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:


  This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of
folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture
but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It
has become a weapon to attack opponents.

I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks.

It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too.

-- Christian Huitema


The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular group of people decided to subvert that meaning.

That is a totally unworkable standard.

  Exactly! There was no issue created by authoritarian communist dictatorships
deciding to subvert the meaning of "democratic" or "people's republic". We
all knew that the Federal Republic of Germany was the good guys and the
German Democratic Republic was the bad guys and we all still understood
what "democracy" meant.

By that standard, if "the racists"[tm] decided to go all in on the "I like my coffee" memes (CONTENT WARNING: search at your peril) then me slurping down my large coffee without milk becomes a racist and vaguely homoerotic act with no change of intent or behaviour from me.

  We can't allow some fringe group of people-- be they PHB's swaggering
bullies or the leftists who got punked by 4chan trolls-- to decide what
words mean for the rest of us.

  The OK sign is used as part of a standard ground check in the French air force.
It's also used by divers to tell each other that things are just fine underwater.
And if some rando somewhere thinks it's the symbol of white supremacy then
just hope he's not flying your plane or diving with you.

  Dan.

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_pRy65I106Ems69LJVMrAyA)-- From nobody Tue Mar 2 18:07:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B7B3A1682 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:07:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykRJStqPcvCx for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE53C3A1681 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:65ed:1380:287f:86d0] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:65ed:1380:287f:86d0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 37436280477; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 02:07:26 +0000 (UTC) To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , Christian Huitema Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 23:07:20 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 02:07:36 -0000 On 2/3/21 18:53, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: [...] >> >> I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious >> about creating new weapons that can be used to attack >> opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for >> purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are >> promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their >> interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than to >> attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very >> careful about legitimizing such attacks. > [...] > > The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a > widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular > group of people decided to subvert that meaning. Are you proposing to abolish religion, religious institutions, national symbols such as flags, military organizations, governments, etc., too? It is very hard for me to think about one of those that has not been used to or associated with atrocities. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Mar 2 19:33:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7EF3A1825 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 19:33:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7C1JVbfmLZvV for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 19:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABE1B3A1824 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 2021 19:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QPD0FFINJ6Y83@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 21:32:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QPD00PFXJ2S5O@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2021 19:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Tue, 02 Mar 2021 19:30:29 -0800 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 19:32:55 -0800 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-id: <81eef2a6-8ed7-2b8a-4a70-1181a672303f@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_0HYMJ07rT1VmIX7TL3BJ8A)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210224] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 03:33:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0HYMJ07rT1VmIX7TL3BJ8A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT On 3/2/21 1:53 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema > wrote: > > On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > >> On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote: >> >>> This is why it is important to set the record straight on this >>> bit of >>> folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the >>> OK gesture >>> but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who >>> use it. It >>> has become a weapon to attack opponents. >> >> I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious >> about creating new weapons that can be used to attack >> opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for >> purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are >> promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their >> interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than >> to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very >> careful about legitimizing such attacks. > > It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on > veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the > standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the > mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true > in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in > regular communication between service members to signal that > things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, > and I suppose others do too. > > -- Christian Huitema > > > The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a > widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular > group of people decided to subvert that meaning.   I was in a far eastern airport (it might've been Macau or maybe Taipei, I'm not 100% sure) several years ago and this airport had prayer rooms for those so inclined. They used an icon to indicate which religion the room catered to. The Christian prayer room had a cross, the Muslim prayer room had a crescent, and the Buddhist prayer room had a swastika.   Being a western person, the swastika is repulsive to me due to the fact that, how you put it, "a particular group of people decided to subvert its meaning." But you know what? I didn't attempt to impose my view of religious iconography on the people running this airport. I didn't try to tell them that there was an issue with their religious iconography. That would've been boorish and rude.   So maybe some restraint is in order on the idea that there are issues surrounding some words or gestures that you think a particular group of people decided to subvert. If you don't want to use "master key" in your I-D or feel that the OK gesture is a symbol of white supremacy then bully for you, but don't try and impose that on everyone else.   Widespread legitimate use makes use of a thing legitimate, a group of trolls or "swaggering bullies" notwithstanding. That's how it works.   regards,   Dan. -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_0HYMJ07rT1VmIX7TL3BJ8A) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

On 3/2/21 1:53 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:37 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:

On 3/2/2021 11:31 AM, Keith Moore wrote:

On 3/2/21 6:33 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:

  This is why it is important to set the record straight on this bit of
folklore. There is really no racist baggage associated with the OK gesture
but now people feel empowered to selectively condemn people who use it. It
has become a weapon to attack opponents.

I think the lesson for IETF and TERM there is "be very cautious about creating new weapons that can be used to attack opponents".   Because people can and will use such weapons for purely political ends, e.g. to demonize the people who are promoting ideas that the attackers believe will harm their interests.   It's often easier to attack people personally than to attack their technical contributions, and we want to be very careful about legitimizing such attacks.

It could be say that demonizing the OK gesture is an attack on veterans. In the French air force, that gesture was part of the standard ground check. So much noise that you can't speak, so the mechanics used it to signal all clear. I suppose the same was true in other NATO countries. As a consequence, it was widely used in regular communication between service members to signal that things were fine. I sometime find myself doing it out of habit, and I suppose others do too.

-- Christian Huitema


The issue is not the fact that it is a legitimate gesture with a widespread legitimate use. What creates an issue is that a particular group of people decided to subvert that meaning.
 
  I was in a far eastern airport (it might've been Macau or maybe Taipei, I'm not
100% sure) several years ago and this airport had prayer rooms for those so inclined.
They used an icon to indicate which religion the room catered to. The Christian prayer
room had a cross, the Muslim prayer room had a crescent, and the Buddhist prayer room
had a swastika.

  Being a western person, the swastika is repulsive to me due to the fact that,
how you put it, "a particular group of people decided to subvert its meaning." But
you know what? I didn't attempt to impose my view of religious iconography on the
people running this airport. I didn't try to tell them that there was an issue
with their religious iconography. That would've been boorish and rude.

  So maybe some restraint is in order on the idea that there are issues surrounding
some words or gestures that you think a particular group of people decided to subvert.
If you don't want to use "master key" in your I-D or feel that the OK gesture is
a symbol of white supremacy then bully for you, but don't try and impose that on
everyone else.

  Widespread legitimate use makes use of a thing legitimate, a group of trolls or
"swaggering bullies" notwithstanding. That's how it works.

  regards,

  Dan.
 
-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
--Boundary_(ID_0HYMJ07rT1VmIX7TL3BJ8A)-- From nobody Wed Mar 3 05:18:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA8A3A1101 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 05:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I1lEP0BsTBGj for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 05:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89D633A1100 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 05:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AD05C014D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 03 Mar 2021 08:18:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=OSReklgQpsaSz9xp6Cy86DkloJzsPgfIztrhlp7Rd uw=; b=buTbJtF8oBE92qCGvkbIGJTOXOe2vEVWuAlTL1GHRoYdQTK+XMuTGhgaa TBtIokoi/MT+0Q58PHn0RgowRyKuve/wRGjUyNG7z86H88jNnIhu6+XsapBrZMvu 1tqvsbSRMgGFYdLa6IpKcacWZFx1R+y+UZ4htjlKpW2AgKE97d+L+y9F7nKbPHZ5 RrtPC1Hpyh5GUJaRTDoCwEHOhGMpdSx1mXUcDR6SQnyfaXUfJYKtrhWXTx228w/e k+BtFmK6ZkP9oB/AH+MGBYXiHyjm9eYlU9vUmJ7NR5IubdikzNpJ10I31Kb2rAnE ynyeJmXHGxRzwu/x4WlWxDFAqxTEw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledruddtvddgheduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtje ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekvdeggfelue elkeeuhfffheeghffhkeeuvdduudeihfehudefffdtgfdtkeffgfenucfkphepuddtkedr vddvuddrudektddrudehnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 93C3C24005D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:18:12 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <1fdfebbf-58ab-0f18-da53-ec06d9953c5f@gmail.com> <1384196287.69381.1614159584429@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <5fec09e1-38d8-9e46-4d27-f10f28ac4db2@lounge.org> <716b6e9a-bdd2-d864-8931-cdd67cb3d182@huitema.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <92ec07fc-aeba-4c4a-0295-efb2be659c26@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:18:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 13:18:16 -0000 On 3/2/21 9:07 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Are you proposing to abolish religion, religious institutions, > national symbols such as flags, military organizations, governments, > etc., too? I thought it was John Lennon who did that :) From nobody Wed Mar 3 13:32:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261573A1B6C; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:32:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4NknEtmJ_sQ; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EF483A1B6B; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:3d2a:476a:3ba9:ea99] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:3d2a:476a:3ba9:ea99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D46328274B; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 21:32:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Fernando Gont To: "'ietf@ietf.org'" Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Jay Daley Message-ID: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:32:22 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 21:32:40 -0000 Folks, While studying the topic of diversity and inclusiveness in the IETF, the question arouse about what are the implications of the IETF LLC being registered in the USA. In particular, I'm concerned about the possible implications for participants from USA-sanctioned countries or organizations. I asked a few people here and there, and was referred to this document: https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_LLC_OFAC_Compliance_Policy_2020-10-06.pdf That document contains text such as: ---- cut here ---- Meeting Registrations The current automated meeting registration system can continue, but at regular intervals, and no later than 30 days before the meeting begins, the list of registered participants and financial institutions associated with payment of registration fees must be checked (both for individual names and country of domicile and residence). ---- cut here ---- and ---- cut here ---- Action The IETF Executive Director will work with IETF LLC counsel to determine what action to take in each individual case. This may include not pursuing the contractual relationship, revoking the meeting registration, cancelling any existing contract or other action. ---- cut here ---- I'm certainly not a lawyer, and hence I'd like an authoritative and clear explanation about what are the possible outcomes of this "OFAC Compliance Policy". For example, could it result in participants from Cuba, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan or Syria being rejected their registration, and hence being prevented to participate in IETF meetings? If that were the case, I'm sure that we'd all agree that that would be inappropriate, discriminatory, oppressive, and ultimately unacceptable. I hope that that's not even a possibility. Could anyone please clarify this? P.S.: Besides sanctions on countries such as the above, there also seems to be a whole list of people and organizations that are sanctioned/banned: https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/specially-designated-nationals-and-blocked-persons-list-sdn-human-readable-lists Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Wed Mar 3 13:44:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A103A1BA1; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:44:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qPUMSM6rxHhX; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A38E3A1B9D; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252AD5C0131; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 03 Mar 2021 16:44:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=bMZbVi43vnwHEaxcaKCtNlCkOGSsd8N+lXeq4GBBP Q8=; b=Pj2H18be07Jowimrl81s89VOn7hrBz9vOyB6/WLkCp4HWXCFBfX0cDQSw CGb25fm96PNw2AQnS5NWTD12zLIFALNYkeJT8OVv3Q4pPGIP9tVwJNj9h+ZVUm0k K9MC4pMsM01UubDetVpi/fav1A+QifKQQT3TPn0PRvhlRjf+H6PRm1nhcw1oyBYo +KHz5yhuDICxC6O+daj35cPdkXmNFuAGADEYVc+wokag79JjA24E86zo8nwojWVc Y/KVGMrUABsftmwY0Anbqu2pyKdElYsA0w7QmhyFPp1EMhJU0ELMPmFDGbju+/A5 VhgeR4NvGQjBZ6oW+ZNhtccXue7aA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledruddtvddgudegfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enfghrlhcuvffnffculddqiedmnecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredt tdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorh hkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffeutdetheegfeeu heefveegueefteekkeeffeegleegfeehieeitdethfdvleegnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivg htfhdrohhrghdpthhrvggrshhurhihrdhgohhvnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedt rdduheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.90] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 47D5D108005C; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:44:01 -0500 (EST) To: Fernando Gont , "'ietf@ietf.org'" Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Jay Daley References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:43:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 21:44:07 -0000 In addition to the clarification that Fernando asked for, I guess I'd like to know (vaguely) whether this has been a problem in the past, maybe how many people have been turned away. I'm guessing that there are other barriers in a similar category: do we have any  idea how many people haven't been able to attend meetings in person because of visa issues? And perhaps also: do we have any idea how many people have been unable to participate remotely due to internet censorship in the countries where they were located? (note: we don't need to try to address these problems at the moment, just trying to make the list of issues that limit participation reasonably complete.) On 3/3/21 4:32 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Folks, > > While studying the topic of diversity and inclusiveness in the IETF, > the question arouse about what are the implications of the IETF LLC > being registered in the USA. > > In particular, I'm concerned about the possible implications for > participants from USA-sanctioned countries or organizations. > > I asked a few people here and there, and was referred to this > document: > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_LLC_OFAC_Compliance_Policy_2020-10-06.pdf > > That document contains text such as: > > ---- cut here ---- > Meeting Registrations > The current automated meeting registration system can continue, but at > regular intervals, and no later than 30 days before the meeting > begins, the list of registered participants and financial institutions > associated with payment of registration fees must be checked (both for > individual names and country of domicile and residence). > ---- cut here ---- > > and > > ---- cut here ---- > Action > The IETF Executive Director will work with IETF LLC counsel to > determine what action to take in each individual case. This may > include not pursuing the contractual relationship, revoking the > meeting registration, cancelling any existing contract or other action. > ---- cut here ---- > > > I'm certainly not a lawyer, and hence I'd like an authoritative and > clear explanation about what are the possible outcomes of this "OFAC > Compliance Policy". > > For example, could it result in participants from Cuba, Iran, Myanmar, > North Korea, Sudan or Syria being rejected their registration, and > hence being prevented to participate in IETF meetings? > > If that were the case, I'm sure that we'd all agree that that would be > inappropriate, discriminatory, oppressive, and ultimately > unacceptable. I hope that that's not even a possibility. > > Could anyone please clarify this? > > P.S.: Besides sanctions on countries such as the above, there also > seems to be a whole list of people and organizations that are > sanctioned/banned: > https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/specially-designated-nationals-and-blocked-persons-list-sdn-human-readable-lists > > Thanks, From nobody Wed Mar 3 13:47:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5883A1BBA; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:47:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qa3l8xg0bOpY; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.pch.net (keriomail.pch.net [206.220.231.84]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 831FC3A1BB5; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:47:36 -0800 (PST) X-Footer: cGNoLm5ldA== Received: from [10.19.48.19] ([69.166.14.2]) by mail.pch.net (Kerio Connect 9.2.7 patch 3) with ESMTPS (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256 bits)); Wed, 3 Mar 2021 13:47:24 -0800 From: Bill Woodcock Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_48156678-AC21-400E-BB2B-8D36771D060D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 22:47:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Fernando Gont , "ietf@ietf.org" , Jay Daley , GENDISPATCH List To: Keith Moore References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 21:47:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_48156678-AC21-400E-BB2B-8D36771D060D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 3, 2021, at 10:43 PM, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > In addition to the clarification that Fernando asked for, I guess I'd = like to know (vaguely) whether this has been a problem in the past, = maybe how many people have been turned away. >=20 > I'm guessing that there are other barriers in a similar category: do = we have any idea how many people haven't been able to attend meetings = in person because of visa issues? Anecdotally, my understanding is that getting US (and sometimes Schengen = and other country) visas has been a much larger problem than the = sanctions problem. PCH has staff globally, and we=E2=80=99ve had our staff refused visas = for conference participation with some regularity. -Bill --Apple-Mail=_48156678-AC21-400E-BB2B-8D36771D060D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEm6XJ0FdpKWJHso4lb6RwSyiLf4cFAmBAA+YACgkQb6RwSyiL f4fIBA/8DtLU+ZXAMyH/EF/9rJ2jDDnHhX8LbD+5z4xkilUmsntOuMGqBMZCgcRL 5UwPpBgfcSgWNtRMuAww6y233nWoU4JdaSnPoeRNR/s1vQZRrisuCZXrySFPJERU gHWmNFCZgK9IWqX55mY9UUhkVCtt2DvsrXwQ72lLgMdDFUZg7+CBnjEAbC8SbNIl ZyNmgc+9ql/63CUmBv8dDiVauee2XpWW29l1nMYY4IcvcP7xBc6gJ8us6tw0Q9nG 5t7BfX9P2DewfvYlA5XoMo7lkZ3VaehFLw5WxmT3lUqvzMvHy8JlcCFYwsgg5Xhc koMduJg6E85CnYB1Dv5UJ9xAT7whjxogFsNafEjyPri9O+AqZuqwQyoc8PRLcZWm GMDmHF/N0Rhpe/mAv/t4EJLG83NRFXjTlKNR4I/xOJLDfUMWapoRfjHkRfqOCmd1 GNUe9UoU8RGtGDaKRNQ5MshCmhofUVS9aEaIlAeBDABbYIWam1a0krK6uG7PvTMh lz2NwpOZ1Gf9VMDTZuDCFwUIEdm6nxKZWeiaGZh9YI88y2mvIYxgEKQclTL9OFbX M/MEBnnwBYgQOxZp8NBGehe8WFMuzSo5COGp1zdIv6PwvYihlsnIq3qXR936oogW /aHRKii8NNLOOmqDn6U4+v+R4BYw3HT4RNsREJwF6O0J5Z0EoHU= =re/c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_48156678-AC21-400E-BB2B-8D36771D060D-- From nobody Wed Mar 3 14:11:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB623A1C18; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 14:11:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass 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cHM6Ly91cmxkZWZlbnNlLmNvbS92My9fX2h0dHBzOi8vaG9tZS50cmVhc3VyeS5nb3YvcG9saWN5 LWlzc3Vlcy9maW5hbmNpYWwtc2FuY3Rpb25zL3NwZWNpYWxseS1kZXNpZ25hdGVkLW5hdGlvbmFs cy1hbmQtYmxvY2tlZC1wZXJzb25zLWxpc3Qtc2RuLWh1bWFuLXJlYWRhYmxlLWxpc3RzX187ISFD UWwzbWNIWDJBIVZTa094eWlYeHV1RzF1UGE5VVNqN2UzR0FUMm5MLUQ5WnBMZXVyRXZUSnprck9q Q1REcWR1bXlPemt1Wl9ZVzI4QTc5RmckDQoNCiAgICBUaGFua3MsDQogICAgLS0NCiAgICBGZXJu YW5kbyBHb250DQogICAgZS1tYWlsOiBmZXJuYW5kb0Bnb250LmNvbS5hciB8fCBmZ29udEBzaTZu ZXR3b3Jrcy5jb20NCiAgICBQR1AgRmluZ2VycHJpbnQ6IDc4MDkgODRGNSAzMjJFIDQ1QzcgRjFD OSAzOTQ1IDk2RUUgQTlFRiBEMDc2IEZGRjENCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 3 14:25:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB44F3A1C5D; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 14:25:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WUG8l9CBxABV; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 14:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB50F3A1C5B; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 14:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:3d2a:476a:3ba9:ea99] (unknown [IPv6:2800:810:464:2b9:3d2a:476a:3ba9:ea99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 000E6282752; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 22:25:29 +0000 (UTC) To: Keith Moore , Fernando Gont , "'ietf@ietf.org'" Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <6de3d2b4-14a8-3309-8033-81b04ce8b6b3@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 19:10:53 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 22:25:36 -0000 On 3/3/21 18:43, Keith Moore wrote: > > I'm guessing that there are other barriers in a similar category: do we > have any  idea how many people haven't been able to attend meetings in > person because of visa issues? FWIW, all of the questions that you raise are certainly valid and important. However, if the "OFAC Compliance Policy" could result in people prevented from participating, much more than an obstacle, but rather outright discrimination being exercised by the IETF itself. -- as noted, I'd hope that's not even among the possible outcomes. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Mar 5 06:12:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE393A25C8; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:12:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OstU_F9R43HU; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C5A83A25C6; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D41E522FCD; Fri, 5 Mar 2021 06:12:44 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Hardaker To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Cc: John Wroclawski , "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List , Keith Moore References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <41698b83-25ff-574e-390a-65a8c3dc591a@tenghardt.net> <0e35a879-b814-ca37-5d8a-1f8e18c2d4a2@si6networks.com> <201DFFC0-89D9-4653-A500-8DDC6ACDE667@eggert.org> <5a2743c6-dbbf-6f31-a0cd-9a6098b56fbb@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 06:12:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Phillip Hallam-Baker's message of "Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:21:13 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2021 14:12:48 -0000 Phillip Hallam-Baker writes: > The way to fix Academia is to look at the funding structures that support it. ... > So the way to fix the problem is to fix Academia. You highlight the problem well that there are multiple confounding issues that all mingle together. (Most) RFCs are typically harder to get published than academic papers. They take multiple years to get published and require extensive negotiations with many parties. This leads to: 1) Its not really a viable goal for students to take on, since they're likely to graduate before the completion of the publication effort. Nor can you ensure consensus, and isn't easy "fallback publication venues" if you fail the IETF as the tier-1 to publish in. 2) That leaves staff and faculty to do the work, which means funding agencies must understand both the long term commitment required (2-3 years beyond the point of the solution being initially documented) and the cost required (its not the travel cost -- its the labor required for said negotiations). Then there is the "running code" cost, that will likely keep changing as the eventually-to-be-standard keeps changing underneath the code. When I've discussed contracting with funding sources before for research work, and explained situation #2 I've often given them two quotes: one just to do the work and a second that included a standardization-effort cost that wasn't even assured. Many organizations saw the second and understandably didn't take that option. And then, yes, you're right that academia must change as well. Back in early days the IETF was seen as a place to do research. Now its seen as a place to do "real stuff" and many opinions exist that its "not researchy enough to warrant our participation". So, yes, I agree: both funding and academia itself needs to change in order to bring them back in full force (we have light participation now, but nothing like we had in the past). The IRTF has greatly helped improve things lately, IMHO and fortunately. -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Mon Mar 8 18:35:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B0D3A09C0 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:35:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=INWgfguC; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=RPlBNLqy Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dNtvAOy26oPg for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F37743A09BE for ; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 18:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E46B5C015E; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 08 Mar 2021 21:35:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:cc:to; s=fm2; bh=D9Y5kNchYx9vK3MwWyhSKILkhkO/qI HF5J+pSczlN/c=; b=INWgfguCrGvbJOUcJGl7v1SYIqkjbNTRTi2gqTvGuE06Pj yaMgKlCgjmZpCOvXKsoFcqj2ebWmO2WB+zMnWdZa3T7oBtlqBRqK4kzaYtvTiZY3 P1cyc+kyEyYMkr3AJ/qU0xTIkmoRoQAbQ91FwijwLClQAE/9SAyNRVS7FVwe7zK9 JcQk6GMNXOaHTy2AgxmgwmkB0Q5y38GfWcbHQpRwU9LUEgcJVT4d66z6CLgec8jl BfZrRiw5LU/TGbOHVSY4yxI/Hb7Lr36bgjffsBlWidgkchFx4XJdfPks2BSMYsGb BXHKJXgr4jcE0XBPkOFo+P/qRekv2IIPwv+A4NTg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=D9Y5kN chYx9vK3MwWyhSKILkhkO/qIHF5J+pSczlN/c=; b=RPlBNLqyTSs6tzNuS5BqOZ 3ZyC2XTH1RL5o8Xfr8iZWY6CIkEGywwDJ5T3LRFFaRo0H0IkscDSGL5bvIK4hghu Tdj5CtTXA5MlGd4v8hTOgtce3ytMNn4HBh+bUJ3sEA3DZWvK1uZ/lzwshEghCmlr jAFUs02KFSFPmQySmiliSwo1mZTE28WWYqcGJiYe03XeM1wrC1V+pFUIG18FAU/5 HsejVBbgnUUvxs87XOiRTftV3XwGFNrUon6gbzRY1jv/9PA4S9iTIgT5I4OpeyhF kkMMONexqmA0dgCDsOwOUEC5dQk9hjOGk8mXF/DvaICVECXMPc21xPuPBOG0qvJA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudduhedggeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffkfffvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomheptehlihhsshgr ucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpefhtdefkeelvdeitdevgeejkeevgfehhefhveeftdeileeihedtleeguefgteel jeenucfkphepuddtkedrhedurddutddurdelkeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtne curfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhn X-ME-Proxy: Received: from alcoop-m-c46z.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-101-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.101.98]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D19C11080063; Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:35:04 -0500 (EST) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:35:03 -0500 Cc: Lars Eggert , Kirsty P To: GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Co-chair changes X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 02:35:08 -0000 Hi all, Please join me in welcoming Kirsty P as the new gendispatch co-chair. = Kirsty will be joining Pete after Francesca steps down later this week. Many thanks to Francesca for her years of capable leadership in this = group! Alissa= From nobody Tue Mar 9 01:46:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C1223A18B1 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2021 01:46:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fiej7sQBc1xq for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2021 01:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A356B3A18AE for ; Tue, 9 Mar 2021 01:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee71fe6000d0688f47e1139b7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e71f:e600:d06:88f4:7e11:39b7]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1lJYw7-00047b-4r; Tue, 09 Mar 2021 10:45:55 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 10:45:53 +0100 Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Lars Eggert , Kirsty P Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4D124F90-553A-419F-A4E3-92B6A9024056@kuehlewind.net> References: To: Alissa Cooper X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1615283158;5c9aa17b; X-HE-SMSGID: 1lJYw7-00047b-4r Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Co-chair changes X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2021 09:46:00 -0000 Thanks Francesca! Welcome Kirsty! > On 9. Mar 2021, at 03:35, Alissa Cooper wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > Please join me in welcoming Kirsty P as the new gendispatch co-chair. = Kirsty will be joining Pete after Francesca steps down later this week. >=20 > Many thanks to Francesca for her years of capable leadership in this = group! >=20 > Alissa > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Thu Mar 11 17:45:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1CE3A186D for ; Thu, 11 Mar 2021 17:45:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 11 Mar 2021 20:45:23 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_067B62F8-577D-4E99-9765-60A90FE27368" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Message-Id: <2BDF7CD7-F5C5-4A27-9A2F-B40311A1851B@mnot.net> References: <161551347345.9380.1240690555706841290@ietfa.amsl.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:45:21 +1100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 01:45:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_067B62F8-577D-4E99-9765-60A90FE27368 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello gendispatch, This is a topic I've made comments on in the past; I'd like for this = draft to be dispatched. Thanks, > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt > Date: 12 March 2021 at 12:44:33 pm AEDT > To: "Mark Nottingham" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from > Revision: 00 > Title: Clarifying IETF Document Status > Document date: 2021-03-12 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from= -00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-fro= m/ > Html: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from= -00.html > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts = and > RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and other > streams. This document recommends several interventions to more > closely align reader perceptions with actual document status. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ --Apple-Mail=_067B62F8-577D-4E99-9765-60A90FE27368 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hello= gendispatch,

This = is a topic I've made comments on in the past; I'd like for this draft to = be dispatched.

Thanks,


Begin = forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
Date: = 12 March 2021 at 12:44:33 pm = AEDT
To: = "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>

A new version of I-D, = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from
Revision: 00
Title: = Clarifying IETF Document Status
Document date: = 2021-03-12
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 7
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-tha= t-come-from-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-th= at-come-from/
Html: =           https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-tha= t-come-from-00.html
Htmlized: =       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-co= me-from-00


Abstract:
  There is widespread confusion about the status = of Internet-Drafts and
  RFCs, especially = regarding their association with the IETF and other
=   streams.  This document recommends several = interventions to more
  closely align reader = perceptions with actual document status.




Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--
Mark Nottingham  =  https://www.mnot.net/

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Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:56:17 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHXFuF5RMwMGx+uaUWBDh9VbEmheKqAKZRQ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:56:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <161551347345.9380.1240690555706841290@ietfa.amsl.com> <2BDF7CD7-F5C5-4A27-9A2F-B40311A1851B@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <2BDF7CD7-F5C5-4A27-9A2F-B40311A1851B@mnot.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: mnot.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mnot.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [82.12.233.180] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d3fc17c5-e830-4b4f-a19c-08d8e5457651 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4288: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, Thanks for writing this document. I agree that this is a problem that should be solved, and I am supportive o= f any work that helps makes it clearer to end users between work that has b= een produced as the consensus of the IETF vs work that is published as an R= FC via another stream. Ideally, I would like us to go further, so that the actual IETF protocol st= andards were more clearly differentiated from informational, experimental, = or IETF process related documents. I'm not sure that I have a good suggestion as to where this is dispatched, = but one question is whether this work has any overlap with the discussions = in RFCed-future? Rob // As a participant From: Gendispatch On Behalf Of Mark Nottingh= am Sent: 12 March 2021 01:45 To: gendispatch@ietf.org Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-w= here-does-that-come-from-00.txt Hello gendispatch, This is a topic I've made comments on in the past; I'd like for this draft = to be dispatched. Thanks, Begin forwarded message: From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come= -from-00.txt Date: 12 March 2021 at 12:44:33 pm AEDT To: "Mark Nottingham" > A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from Revision: 00 Title: Clarifying IETF Document Status Document date: 2021-03-12 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does= -that-come-from-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-doe= s-that-come-from/ Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does= -that-come-from-00.html Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-where-does-tha= t-come-from-00 Abstract: There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts and RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and other streams. This document recommends several interventions to more closely align reader perceptions with actual document status. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ --_000_MN2PR11MB4366BA1ADCDA58908980C8B4B56F9MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mark,<= o:p>

&nbs= p;

Thanks fo= r writing this document.

&nbs= p;

I agree t= hat this is a problem that should be solved, and I am supportive of any wor= k that helps makes it clearer to end users between work that has been produ= ced as the consensus of the IETF vs work that is published as an RFC via another stream.

&nbs= p;

Ideally, = I would like us to go further, so that the actual IETF protocol standards w= ere more clearly differentiated from informational, experimental, or IETF p= rocess related documents.

&nbs= p;

I’m= not sure that I have a good suggestion as to where this is dispatched, but= one question is whether this work has any overlap with the discussions in = RFCed-future?

&nbs= p;

Rob<= /o:p>

// As a p= articipant

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

From: Gendispatch <gendispatch-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham
Sent: 12 March 2021 01:45
To: gendispatch@ietf.org
Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-notti= ngham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt

 

Hello gendispatch,

 

This is a topic I've made comments on in the past; I= 'd like for this draft to be dispatched.

 

Thanks,

 



Begin forwarded message:

 

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org<= /o:p>

Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-where-do= es-that-come-from-00.txt

Date: 12 March 2= 021 at 12:44:33 pm AEDT

To: "Mark= Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>= ;

 


A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:      &nb= sp;        draft-nottingham-where= -does-that-come-from
Revision:      = ;    00
Title:      &n= bsp;           Cla= rifying IETF Document Status
Document date:     =        2021-03-12
Group:      &n= bsp;            = ;         Individual Submiss= ion
Pages:      &n= bsp;        7
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-= that-come-from-00.txt
Status:         https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from/=
Html:           https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-th= at-come-from-00.html
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00


Abstract:
  There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Draf= ts and
  RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and = other
  streams.  This document recommends several interventions t= o more
  closely align reader perceptions with actual document status.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

 

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.m= not.net/

 

--_000_MN2PR11MB4366BA1ADCDA58908980C8B4B56F9MN2PR11MB4366namp_-- From nobody Fri Mar 12 06:09:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82A73A105C for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 06:09:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AjaTvd0ZYZpE for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 06:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B1823A105B for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 06:09:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4056; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1615558180; x=1616767780; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=FnRLamCoxtgxnArj1bYBQjkxuQOFnZa9lBcN5hRibyA=; b=nA1NR+5mA/X+7AjgDWWqlrYH7sfHpnfeNn0zNWrbIRVROwUPFBe3zCRy 7HSVE5iPN30q8EyHVrVde64RLX8aIWkWlkLddkfCVIqu7rYAe9JGOzsaf 9GHMgEWgoF2fzvO/4acIT9tuNCZGi9JWKg2h5254nLvLmkuMqnch7+LD6 k=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ADAADZdEtgjBbLJq1aGgEBAQEBAQEBAQEDAQEBARIBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAgIBAQEBgXsFAQEBAQsBgSKCVAEnEjGEQYgkYIgbJQOHdIxChiOBfAQHA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBCgMBATQEAQGETQKBdSY0CQ4CAwEBAQMCAwEBAQEFAQEBAgEGBBQBAQEBh?= =?us-ascii?q?keGRAEBAQECASNUAgULCwQUKgICVwYTgnABgmYhq3d2gTKFWIRtEIE5AYFSh?= =?us-ascii?q?SoBhkVCggyBOAwQglg+gmAEhHM0gisEgl1RQySBPA2BF50OnGSDC4MzgT+XR?= =?us-ascii?q?QMfk26QIrJ6TwGDdgIEBgUCFoFUOIFZMxoIGxVlAYI+PhIZDY44HY4TQAMvA?= =?us-ascii?q?jYCBgEJAQEDCZQAAQE?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: A9a23:NsODyKGaeawOU3SwpLqEaseALOonbusQ8zAX/mp6ICYlEfCwvc aogfgdyFvImC8cMUtNpfmsMLSNKEm8ybdb+o8UVI3JYCDHvy+SIJhm/c/exVTbexHW0uJGz6 9vf+xfBbTLYGRSqcb/7E2GH807wN+BmZrGuc7kw31gTR5nZshbhm8TNi+hHkJ7XwVAD5Yifa Dsg/ZvnSaqengcc62AaEUtYu6rnayoqLvWJToPBxsq82C1/FeVwY+/NQSE1REDVD4K5rEu/Q H+4mrEz5Tmle2nwRnB0GKW1bBqoZ/Kz9tOA9HksLlzFgnR X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,243,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="34137032" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 12 Mar 2021 14:09:35 +0000 Received: from [10.61.144.47] ([10.61.144.47]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 12CE9YqK011542 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Mar 2021 14:09:35 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B53F607F-9A38-4018-ACF1-2EAD0A2ED20A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:09:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Mark Nottingham , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" References: <161551347345.9380.1240690555706841290@ietfa.amsl.com> <2BDF7CD7-F5C5-4A27-9A2F-B40311A1851B@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.144.47, [10.61.144.47] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 14:09:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B53F607F-9A38-4018-ACF1-2EAD0A2ED20A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4F66B019-F121-4CCC-B1F9-D6724D996DFA" --Apple-Mail=_4F66B019-F121-4CCC-B1F9-D6724D996DFA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Rob, > On 12 Mar 2021, at 11:56, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure that I have a good suggestion as to where this is = dispatched, but one question is whether this work has any overlap with = the discussions in RFCed-future? This proposal actually intertwines two functions: internet-drafts and = RFCs. The RFCs surely come under the RFC Editor function. = Internet-Drafts? That=E2=80=99s not clear. It is also not clear when = the Program will complete its work, but I suspect we will know more = within a month. It would be good if this proposal =E2=80=9Cdirected=E2=80= =9D through the results of the RFCed-future program, but that will be a = matter of timing. Certainly the IETF should not dictate to the other = streams. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_4F66B019-F121-4CCC-B1F9-D6724D996DFA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Rob,

On 12 Mar 2021, at 11:56, Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m not sure = that I have a good suggestion as to where this is dispatched, but one = question is whether this work has any overlap with the discussions in = RFCed-future?


This proposal actually = intertwines two functions: internet-drafts and RFCs.  The RFCs = surely come under the RFC Editor function.  Internet-Drafts? =  That=E2=80=99s not clear.  It is also not clear when the = Program will complete its work, but I suspect we will know more within a = month.  It would be good if this proposal =E2=80=9Cdirected=E2=80=9D = through the results of the RFCed-future program, but that will be a = matter of timing.  Certainly the IETF should not dictate to the = other streams.

Eliot
= --Apple-Mail=_4F66B019-F121-4CCC-B1F9-D6724D996DFA-- --Apple-Mail=_B53F607F-9A38-4018-ACF1-2EAD0A2ED20A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmBLdh4ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejPOYwf/c4T4fbX4YSSBhOgVZME2Ej6sefCMYYp/VN4q6OKLWsP15wSSkPYXATcG ikk1Af6tRpNeg47M36Q9Kpsjtj9euwzJ4LPX314Tya/WG6Oivl2ygKzmlWHDM44N 7b8OfAeDqGnDdFrYqIHnJbbyxZiP3Fn+3qtyurqFjlJS0jNihdK3e95XoY+OL8P4 WPLx3fiduP9bJMHrvO20AXVXoEeWVlEP5S4p6nT2G++ZcVLDDmeiYUkyojJi7gsZ UX9Uqpk9mJATwmevQZO5e97noRt8Jsc4h+QRZOB5dIisePkj3NfOicnypay2UKfK 70YZn+0jrBMyCYplFx1yoFtx6SbmNQ== =B4on -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B53F607F-9A38-4018-ACF1-2EAD0A2ED20A-- From nobody Fri Mar 12 10:07:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C113A1952; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:07:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=riseup.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lowszFhlqQ_3; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F0AC3A1950; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Dxv0p0SFxzDxcD; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:07:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1615572442; bh=QoYwSMltngcEu3QQ5UnIgDYyNdKCBv7g05bJUitz1kM=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=I4JEW3kCIzoNAtVyA/sI6j/GuYUi1lxN8PAn1RYd6S1f+TGVJ8dF49eulgvZaN6q1 TgtVFdR4NYrOV2L1GHVbShY0BRs1cvgTMv8GEfYxfE17WVSoX+U1cM/6Nj/HftvIFL kPqjkrWPZkX9bIJj6FBqtcZVyZrSMHu/RKd4SPDA= X-Riseup-User-ID: F8BD105E13A2B771899522C94D0D5698DE3F69CAC57D8012E433DDD444E8B518 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dxv0m6mBZz5vNR; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Khashayar Danesh In-Reply-To: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:07:10 +0100 Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <76241230-DDB2-4A87-A8E1-C8852DE55790@riseup.net> References: <4619acc8-1ed4-52e8-849b-bfda9de61bb0@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] IETF LLC & IETF Participation from USA-sanctioned countries X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 18:07:25 -0000 Hi, An Iranian national over here.=20 Firstly, I=E2=80=99m very happy and a bit surprised to see this issue = recognized by entities other than the affected group of people = (nationals of sanctioned countries). Having lived in Iran for 20 years and the last 2 years in the = Netherlands, I can say there are a whole lot of preventive schemes for a = hypothetical person interested in community-based activities in general = and more specifically in the area of computers, networking and = electronics.=20 I=E2=80=99m going to explain some of my observations and obviously these = paragraphs will contain my opinions, feelings and overall = understandings.=20 There are a lot of moving parts in being included in activities in an = International task force, for example IETF:=20 1. The government of the interested person=E2=80=99s country of origin - The international relations of the interested person=E2=80=99s = country=20 - The environment that person lives in - The person interested in participation | | | | V 2. The country in which the community of interest is registered and = based - The Government of the country in which the community of interest = is registered - The immigration policies of the Government of the country in = which the community of interest is registered (The community itself is excluded from this diagram, and let=E2=80=99s = say the community itself is in a state of art in the area of = inclusivity) All the mentioned items play significant roles in having a person = included in X kind of activity, in the country of Y in the area of Z.=20 First off, having people go towards the X kind of activity and getting = interested in them has a lot of different pre-requirements, such as = freedom to experiment, peace of mind, having enough personal freedom, = somewhat stable financial situation (an annual inflation rate that is = not around 300%), some kind of social and job security, having the = privilege of not being crippled by fear and being able to have concerns = other than survival. Many of these rule a lot of people out, because it=E2=80=99s just too = much and bearing a part of this myself has had consequences that I=E2=80=99= m dealing with still. If the activity requires traveling per-se, it requires a passport = that=E2=80=99s not completely worthless and the person should be able to = pay for things over their trip.=20 Let=E2=80=99s say the person has had enough resources, peace of mind, = means of research and development (yes, this is a problem as well, where = people have their social and job security on the line every day this is = a bit of a 1st world problem), a stable financial situation and their = national travel documents (yes, the dictatorships have turned this one = into a kind of mercy as well.) And freedom of access to information itself is a problem in Iran at = least, they enforce a very sophisticated scheme of filtering and = censorship over the internet you get from an ISP or Datacenter.=20 And not only there are issues with the Country of X, making a whole lot = of problem for the person, there will be restrictions for them enforced = by the US of A in the area of use and contribution in/to opensource = software, use of free services (such as github), payment and so on and = so forth (in case of free services and opensource, it=E2=80=99s just = wrong.) The person has had to fight all these things to be able to find what = they=E2=80=99re interested in, try and learn things in that area, = experiment a bit, try and fix some small problems, then a very rare = percentage of those people would reach a state in which they=E2=80=99re = able to innovate and have meaningful participation. Going through more = trouble in general increases the chances of being bored, tired and = de-motivated.=20 Many of the mentioned restrictions about Iranian people at least are = driven by the US Embargo Sanctions, due to the seizure of the US Embassy = in 1979. And worth to mention: Many of the people who are suffering the = consequences of that event are born way after 1979. And also not only = seizing an embassy is not approved and it is highly despised, we = couldn=E2=80=99t have possibly had anything to do with it and we are = willing to go through c-14 radiocarbon dating to prove it; in case a = date of birth way after 1979 is not enough.=20 So, people are subject to enforcement of the policies of their = government, and if they=E2=80=99re discriminatory or exclusive, or = vague, or senseless, everything applies to everyone unless proven = otherwise.=20 Traveling from such a state is a whole other story.=20 Assuming the financial stability being there (even though it=E2=80=99s = not and most people in Iran are making a median of 10K USD per year if = they=E2=80=99re highly talented and this money has to get them through a = whole year with unpredictable inflation), you need to apply for visas, = go through extensive wait times, interviews, background checks, etc, = I=E2=80=99d freely say Immigration to most of Europe for work purposes = is way easier than going to a conference/meetup/event you have to pay = for yourself and go through the pain of visas.=20 So, the residents of the mentioned states and specifically Iran have = something like this going on. =46rom one side dictatorship and from the = other side highly vague rules and policies from EU/US which mostly = affect normal citizens rather than actual people in charge of = destruction and illegal/criminal activities. Sorry for the long email, but I had to write this down and share my = personal pain. Feel free to contact me about any of these. P.S: I=E2=80=99d be happy to help anyone who wants to register a .ir = domain. Kind regards from Amsterdam-ish,=20 Khashayar Danesh=20 From nobody Fri Mar 12 12:54:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37693A12F6 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:54:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ZzKm1bEny5D for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B5143A12F1 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id t18so5729411pjs.3 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:54:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=J+ojYhquRgP6msAokinGhxVRUOtNTFiFSagTJUf0jcU=; b=ioaZKPAsI98f79BoKtT2bcoZdkqu41HXW9hzC2YC83guLFjPMFZYwmfIgQA0/fRgyY XgEouSnc3MlZhDjfer0gqok3kw9eholPVlapBx7/R09y6jRIpX5t7U7INSCuvkikwSA/ P9C29rdY2sdwapwJEbqJgCWTWBIl2Ja6AXdYmFx9v616OwbeL8IZEPGJwiWiS5VrIbNn SGCZJQtU/Iw2qBEhYJh19CWyDkZrgZ0AKONOItNX/YNbOPZf4xtuQ7gXW7yd66JTYSxO MY2VJHPoDr0EYL/LcS1DBJeTN5YITVbR/j6Exgoq+1pdMrYDMmMwd5BJ2TmNR0xZe8NZ CV4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=J+ojYhquRgP6msAokinGhxVRUOtNTFiFSagTJUf0jcU=; b=YZ0qSwYwJbfYcBR+uEygEgqD3FiDuvN3/1pY3aM3rSfr+68fhEE5GzLFs7E+dg3JoQ LT5d6acfnCoY2R//kWn7xUbj3t89IIg/QnSMWXiFujwgeDWg+E1SD1KddGMZEV80IoYX dOrxnWJDb1fJcYTCSroe/h2BEsw02WGHaZtjLl4xeMdUipO3yVcOFkwEoGoAtUiwGmvM ujcmM+au6tw/SpNFxp6T/6TYtXgq+uE2vwoW5zDzpW2SDs2IJos1Dy+6H/rSeD2WEhLy Q8HK8FkyVTcfbA/2mNRDWzv0MQyfTF/pyjnblKFXP3eDK7t6txXlarP8VJSGK4gGwSvl YR3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532xFybW4z1Nqq7Sg5PfiOx8RL7hRdDwdz1DyjYR1W0cOS2BCH/2 8sCESzW72xYP8buw4x/Qpy8kvDme6ocTQA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwdZXpw5vyNbegIZnLB7sRJYZ1P7nAEaAjCEYTm2oIMooJlYNx11KPAfhTkncjy6wEFa4ijMg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a513:: with SMTP id a19mr157908pjq.210.1615582438088; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id gm9sm2953844pjb.13.2021.03.12.12.53.56 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:53:57 -0800 (PST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 09:53:53 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 20:54:03 -0000 As already noted, this can't really be an IETF document since it purports to cover all streams. > 2.1.3. Proposal 3: domain usage I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly have pointers to the canonical copies). Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as pointers. > 2.2. Internet-Drafts > > The following recommendations apply to the publication of Internet-Drafts. The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from? Regards Brian On 12-Mar-21 14:44, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Clarifying IETF Document Status > Author : Mark Nottingham > Filename : draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2021-03-11 > > Abstract: > There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts and > RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and other > streams. This document recommends several interventions to more > closely align reader perceptions with actual document status. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from/ > > There is also an HTML version available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.html > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Fri Mar 12 16:43:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9ED3A0DD8 for ; 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Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:42:59 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:42:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E44D259EC74ACA3A18728686" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 00:43:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E44D259EC74ACA3A18728686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/12/21 3:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly have pointers to the canonical copies). > > Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as pointers. Given the long history and very widespread practice of mirroring RFCs to numerous sites, and having seen many times how useful this can be, I really doubt it's a good idea to start discouraging this practice, even by the ietf.org site. (now if ietf.org wants to mirror RFCs at rfc-mirrors.ietf.org and issue redirects to the latter domain, that probably wouldn't bother me) Relying entirely on a single site makes things more fragile, and RFCs should IMO be widely replicated in order to limit the potential for access to them to be restricted either accidentally or deliberately.   (It's not  as if RFCs never say things that are inconvenient to powerful parties.) >> 2.2. Internet-Drafts >> >> The following recommendations apply to the publication of Internet-Drafts. > The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from? Maybe we don't need to solve that problem.   IMO even I-Ds that have been adopted by a working group are still not blessed by IETF and shouldn't be given any elevated status in the minds of the general public until they've been published in final form. Keith --------------E44D259EC74ACA3A18728686 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 3/12/21 3:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly have pointers to the canonical copies).

Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as pointers.

Given the long history and very widespread practice of mirroring RFCs to numerous sites, and having seen many times how useful this can be, I really doubt it's a good idea to start discouraging this practice, even by the ietf.org site.

(now if ietf.org wants to mirror RFCs at rfc-mirrors.ietf.org and issue redirects to the latter domain, that probably wouldn't bother me)

Relying entirely on a single site makes things more fragile, and RFCs should IMO be widely replicated in order to limit the potential for access to them to be restricted either accidentally or deliberately.   (It's not  as if RFCs never say things that are inconvenient to powerful parties.) 

 2.2. Internet-Drafts

The following recommendations apply to the publication of Internet-Drafts.

The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from?

Maybe we don't need to solve that problem.   IMO even I-Ds that have been adopted by a working group are still not blessed by IETF and shouldn't be given any elevated status in the minds of the general public until they've been published in final form.

Keith


--------------E44D259EC74ACA3A18728686-- From nobody Fri Mar 12 17:09:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C3A3A0F0A for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K0ka-JT4TYcM for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEB623A0F09 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id kk2-20020a17090b4a02b02900c777aa746fso11878883pjb.3 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:09:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BNBCZJMewlN3hJIqOsM6oK8PS3CpxV1kQHw/rFX0eJo=; b=ltjzrmshAqleE5gSSESkRCuvBSKIfVzk85+4LSdNqa/nM9h/c8fBP7hw768wARlopN xpvHfV+6iy7RKsbCL0MnOnVj93vfDBO7pLnKKJwMjLSuSFJGQ/y1bhRz57WpYBkhHVdV SWqudZo3aRgmUR02aPSKwDASoBKP5KoUy18wIHPOEbIqb42H/CKynhpC8s/KA6lYoSTE XaH6u3+oXD5zcp81UXtyOXxgLiBZp7adspuOqJmRc+aaFv2o9zAvSXpOGT/oxdZpGb7+ 0Bq750SvBfvr6lt3Byftbu8/sesH4MJ2MQQrjYOincctM2Hf/tVtX6oxcPApvtws0TCy zaGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BNBCZJMewlN3hJIqOsM6oK8PS3CpxV1kQHw/rFX0eJo=; b=KpbOlYPBenZXNmtLNKyAUiRMeURBgRUic7hXOrCQbosGQuEQAJIy6KVJ/m5qeg1AWk rPldpWNJ1o4pNquRN+nh/2j5ACh72uIAu5la7c6WUP658/v6GEaprzI3sDNbUhcfYKD+ nSDKMpxEqrGDjqUYrr4dj20tqk4+BCDD11rw900I0bEqCl5q1TqszattJBACu5akeXpD kjcGJYJtfJyGz6xOMdLZTRGHL0y9GZuOT4tXIsW5RnV/2osyKnXnTDtRrtq1YV3jXPYj UR+BSvmai5rpr+QVrep3Ex5MEVyLTK1wedJ6XoguTiqG/SPa18n2Lt8Y6E1sianGaJZH 3spw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QM44YoEJkBwBKrN4LsUDpOyxbWhV8OHXeU91+B8iMkQt3jClo Or2yTRmsH4ot9xSLiPmHj1ERDR0bm9E09Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzikKAkO+u9n6rnnsMRlbkH666hIu4Li3XsgVcZ/FK/QVqEBFT7Wt3/0Fi2AVBaA52gxncUhg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:5284:: with SMTP id w4mr998702pjh.29.1615597756121; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x11sm12657806pjh.0.2021.03.12.17.09.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:09:15 -0800 (PST) To: Keith Moore , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <72cebab7-3fdb-a69f-1204-28b22510022c@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:09:11 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 01:09:19 -0000 On 13-Mar-21 13:42, Keith Moore wrote: > On 3/12/21 3:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >> I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all = RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate copi= es in any other domains (although those domains should certainly have poi= nters to the canonical copies). >> >> Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as pointer= s. >=20 > Given the long history and very widespread practice of mirroring RFCs t= o numerous sites, and having seen many times how useful this can be, I re= ally doubt it's a good idea to start discouraging this practice, even by = the ietf.org site. I agree that lots of mirrors of the canonical versions is a Good Thing. N= ow that the RFC Editor is showing the htmlized version for older RFCs, as= well as the modern html versions, I think we should encourage all mirror= s to carry them too. But what the draft seems to suggest is a *partial* m= irror. That's a Bad Idea IMHO. =20 > (now if ietf.org wants to mirror RFCs at rfc-mirrors.ietf.org and issue= redirects to the latter domain, that probably wouldn't bother me) >=20 > Relying entirely on a single site makes things more fragile, and RFCs s= hould IMO be widely replicated in order to limit the potential for access= to them to be restricted either accidentally or deliberately. =C2=A0 (It= 's not=C2=A0 as if RFCs never say things that are inconvenient to powerfu= l parties.) >=20 >>> 2.2. Internet-Drafts >>> >>> The following recommendations apply to the publication of Internet-Dr= afts. >> The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of= the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft beco= mes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we algorithmically cla= ssify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or draft-nottingham-where-does-that-= come-from? >=20 > Maybe we don't need to solve that problem.=C2=A0=C2=A0 IMO even I-Ds th= at have been adopted by a working group are still not blessed by IETF and= shouldn't be given any elevated status in the minds of the general publi= c until they've been published in final form. Well, that's a bit vague in the draft. If it was more precisely defined, = we could discuss it further. Brian >=20 > Keith >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Mar 12 17:14:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4642F3A0FB3 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:14:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.248, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UMXPjYmOX1kv for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF4163A0FAF for ; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 01:14:30 -0000 --_000_BA63FEE3F7F8435B8105A173CABCC154akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SXTigJlzIHNpbGx5IHRvIHRyeSBhbmQgaGF2ZSBvbmUg4oCcb2ZmaWNpYWzigJ0gcGxhY2UgZm9y IFJGQ+KAmXMsIGFuZCBkZXByZWNhdGUgYWxsIG90aGVyIGxvY2F0aW9ucy4gIEV2ZW4gaWYgaXQg Y291bGQgYmUgZG9uZSwgYW5kIEnigJlkIGxpa2UgdG8ga25vdyB3aHksIHdlIHdhbnQgdGhlc2Ug ZG9jcyB0byBiZSB3aWRlbHkgYW5kIGZyZWVseSBhdmFpbGFibGUuDQo= --_000_BA63FEE3F7F8435B8105A173CABCC154akamaicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6bz0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6b2ZmaWNlIiB4 bWxuczp3PSJ1cm46c2NoZW1hcy1taWNyb3NvZnQtY29tOm9mZmljZTp3b3JkIiB4bWxuczptPSJo dHRwOi8vc2NoZW1hcy5taWNyb3NvZnQuY29tL29mZmljZS8yMDA0LzEyL29tbWwiIHhtbG5zPSJo dHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIj4NCjxoZWFkPg0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVp dj0iQ29udGVudC1UeXBlIiBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9dXRmLTgiPg0KPG1l dGEgbmFtZT0iR2VuZXJhdG9yIiBjb250ZW50PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxNSAoZmlsdGVyZWQg bWVkaXVtKSI+DQo8c3R5bGU+PCEtLQ0KLyogRm9udCBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KQGZvbnQtZmFj ZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2 IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToy IDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAzIDIgNDt9DQpAZm9udC1mYWNlDQoJe2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNvbnNvbGFz Ow0KCXBhbm9zZS0xOjIgMTEgNiA5IDIgMiA0IDMgMiA0O30NCi8qIFN0eWxlIERlZmluaXRpb25z ICovDQpzcGFuLkVtYWlsU3R5bGUyMQ0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25hbC1yZXBseTsN Cglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsNCgljb2xvcjp3aW5kb3d0ZXh0O30N Ci5Nc29DaHBEZWZhdWx0DQoJe21zby1zdHlsZS10eXBlOmV4cG9ydC1vbmx5Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6 ZToxMC4wcHQ7fQ0KQHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6OC41aW4gMTEuMGluOw0KCW1h cmdpbjoxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbiAxLjBpbjt9DQpkaXYuV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3BhZ2U6 V29yZFNlY3Rpb24xO30NCi0tPjwvc3R5bGU+DQo8L2hlYWQ+DQo8Ym9keSBsYW5nPSJFTi1VUyIg bGluaz0iIzA1NjNDMSIgdmxpbms9IiM5NTRGNzIiIHN0eWxlPSJ3b3JkLXdyYXA6YnJlYWstd29y ZCI+DQo8ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJXb3JkU2VjdGlvbjEiPg0KPHA+SXTigJlzIHNpbGx5IHRvIHRyeSBh bmQgaGF2ZSBvbmUg4oCcb2ZmaWNpYWzigJ0gcGxhY2UgZm9yIFJGQ+KAmXMsIGFuZCBkZXByZWNh dGUgYWxsIG90aGVyIGxvY2F0aW9ucy4mbmJzcDsgRXZlbiBpZiBpdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBkb25lLCBh bmQgSeKAmWQgbGlrZSB0byBrbm93IHdoeSwgd2Ugd2FudCB0aGVzZSBkb2NzIHRvIGJlIHdpZGVs eSBhbmQgZnJlZWx5IGF2YWlsYWJsZS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0K PC9odG1sPg0K --_000_BA63FEE3F7F8435B8105A173CABCC154akamaicom_-- From nobody Fri Mar 12 17:22:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016E13A1025 for ; 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Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p17sm6647254pfn.62.2021.03.12.17.22.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:22:38 -0800 (PST) To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:22:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 01:22:42 -0000 On 13-Mar-21 14:14, Salz, Rich wrote: > It=E2=80=99s silly to try and have one =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D place= for RFC=E2=80=99s, and deprecate all other locations.=C2=A0 Even if it c= ould be done, and I=E2=80=99d like to know why, we want these docs to be = widely and freely available. Yes, in fact I agree, see my reply to Keith. Brian From nobody Sat Mar 13 00:17:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27583A0990 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2021 00:17:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WBFiL8IZZ4Hx for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2021 00:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD50F3A098C for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2021 00:17:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1862; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1615623457; x=1616833057; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=m7LYf1bIbGEwwF8sml7osdVL1e1SslHiKEc/cmESqAc=; b=DmBGdd9yefSoVa7ymR7uFY7x6bmspeutElUCYLq81xBSgBQyVu6j5QF8 y1BM7FB3u3XalaTdUVt8hra9EkIBq7lS0qny6DPnj424GgKEo0tH7NFun bBCut2Hu1nDjAVGLgIG6u/94rMdV5ppFRpyrK+uqbSuCVBRBwFBwzaFgZ 4=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DaAADOdExgjBbLJq1aGwEBAQEBAQEBBQEBARIBAQEDA?= =?us-ascii?q?wEBAYIPgyFWAScSMYRBiQSIQQOKJ5IuBAcBAQEKAwEBHQsMBAEBhAlEAoF1J?= =?us-ascii?q?jgTAgMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBQEBAQIBBgQUAQEBAYY6DYZEAQEBAQIBAQEhSwsFC?= =?us-ascii?q?wsYKgICIQYwBhOCcAGCVQMOIQ+rZHeBMoVYgk0NghgKBoE5gVOLcEKCDIE4H?= =?us-ascii?q?IJYPoIeQgEBhHWCYASBSxqBQwZTWzE4DDFznRCcC1uDDIMzgT+SGYUuAx+Tc?= =?us-ascii?q?JAjo0+PfgGDeAIEBgUCFoFrIYFZMxoIGxU7KgGCPj4SGQ2OKw0JiGGFRkADL?= =?us-ascii?q?wI2AgYBCQEBAwmVLgEB?= IronPort-HdrOrdr: A9a23:VCRvI67T7KBXYvX5VAPXwErXdLJzesId70hD6mlaQ3VuA6+lvu qpm+kW0gKxtSYJVBgb9eyoFaGcTRrnlKJdzpIWOd6ZNjXOmGztF4166Jun/juIIU3D38pQz7 1pfaQ7KNCYNzVHpOL75AX9LNo62tmA98mT6tv29HtmQQF0Z6wI1W4QYTqzKUF4SBJLApA0Dv Onl696jgC9cncaZNnTPBc4dtXEzue79q7OUFojDx4j5BLmt0LN1JfKVz6FwxwZTzRDhZAl/G StqX2e2oyT99em1xTby2jfq65zpeKk4N5CCMuQ4/JlTQnRtg== X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,245,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="34155447" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 13 Mar 2021 08:17:31 +0000 Received: from [10.61.144.48] ([10.61.144.48]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 12D8HUd9004648 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 13 Mar 2021 08:17:30 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <6AAB9FD1-3EE1-4D26-B875-930607107CAF@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_17E27879-0CF3-4230-B06F-A86F7DB72BA0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 09:17:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: Brian E Carpenter References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.144.48, [10.61.144.48] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 08:17:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_17E27879-0CF3-4230-B06F-A86F7DB72BA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This having been said, I agree with Mark that this is a problem, that = branding can help, and that the matter should get addressed. Where it = gets addressed is a matter of timing. I really do hope that we can = dispatch this work to the new WG-like structure that is being = contemplated in the program. Eliot > On 13 Mar 2021, at 02:22, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 13-Mar-21 14:14, Salz, Rich wrote: >> It=E2=80=99s silly to try and have one =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D = place for RFC=E2=80=99s, and deprecate all other locations. Even if it = could be done, and I=E2=80=99d like to know why, we want these docs to = be widely and freely available. >=20 > Yes, in fact I agree, see my reply to Keith. >=20 > Brian >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_17E27879-0CF3-4230-B06F-A86F7DB72BA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmBMdRkACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMnxwf/X8ALBKfP0OHI2IXmwmTQ3uRxLKr7Oz2ksfG0M4eruOOFSrXK1w42YShk ZqJnPAXCbNtLh7JqQQZgFXljlxdrgjC9gqwWWz592E8fqh/5nR9O6ursynZgxr9p WUaEP3E4jylIMC3W6/X/JLsqlkCC9gffoqjMNcam7kMJspQJSu6fmgcpO1nbRNaC fewJN16CrvtBTfoGSZQAgQE9Dl4xPWEdbK0lvWiIlrjhupbGPNwfIBTM64F6qDtg /aevn09mHkuy63iU8Glt1qOJ1BV3UCVQ39CUn4IINNxBEGxW68aA7Sa8yd+QlD9V 7CraF//mWhA1X6+pEt6EZk3QFDTLHg== =x633 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_17E27879-0CF3-4230-B06F-A86F7DB72BA0-- From nobody Sat Mar 13 06:34:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A673E3A103F for ; 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Sat, 13 Mar 2021 09:33:59 -0500 (EST) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> <6AAB9FD1-3EE1-4D26-B875-930607107CAF@cisco.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <54b1c733-0915-f52b-af3d-21e07a1106c3@network-heretics.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 09:33:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6AAB9FD1-3EE1-4D26-B875-930607107CAF@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:34:03 -0000 On 3/13/21 3:17 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > This having been said, I agree with Mark that this is a problem, that branding can help, and that the matter should get addressed. Agree with this much.   Especially now that HTML and PDF are widely used for RFCs, it seems reasonable to include logos in the HTMLized and PDF versions of newly produced RFCs, and perhaps also HTMLized and PDF versions of older RFCs. But these seem a bit out of scope for IETF to specify in detail, so perhaps should be limited to brief recommendations to the RFC Editor. I don't think Internet-Drafts should be stamped by IETF at all, but maybe authors should be able to specify one or more small logos of the organizations that they represent, if they wish.   If this is done I recommend that they be on a (single) cover/title page that doesn't change the format of the remainder of the draft. Keith From nobody Sun Mar 14 20:59:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABA93A1272 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=rwbO3AYH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=at2bWrmi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MbNqjxQ8u7oI for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0575B3A1271 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 20:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3511348; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:59:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=+ UV9UnoD47KBylqtHUS8VQedjbv8KNNS5SSEx3UShM4=; b=rwbO3AYHxTBEnBQ2A eVsP1ImnY+LhGYZLovmtmQcVl7yh/N2V3AN4zbnxQYtAcgwpUEEIL/wH+Hd1Zu1t ohmYeG7kPDrBQQCoyYZBjhycSp6F2yl3XBc5Pe2sT+ks/VdpAmbBy63ehMx4xH/g piIiSB6Ronh3awJWtm8apNsNMXSSR6YjdKCx2+plludRcp20r/o7IctDbLfMIC4U OQbqx24XlS5XTsbKXrqmBbha5Sa00EAUbAVHlC6PJc5Y4ebM8fJQK9z3vo4DnPpO YVlRFmsZPKOYCn6bVIctPWYM5Yv4TlbMTBphiH5DlX2Rc+JJ5ts9Lq7yW3/X6jLL 2DDPQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=+UV9UnoD47KBylqtHUS8VQedjbv8KNNS5SSEx3USh M4=; b=at2bWrmib4wuhH10qu82CCCpaBd9ZyRwQM80KYi8acVhVx7ypEwz07yH1 3CJJkRurLgAVcsvIWyWX4LOuHtglcLNk/ZvRIQDa9vXhIK6b5wj+Te5IFMcRTYCT YOdKpxr1qu6fdRUWLYk9CNZRWc7tYGh3MCaNEB9yzqV3tnpTHqRrgbfOQBfIhV9m 7ylEpRy14QZV7NhQF/iN2HSKBMs3LjrJpTPQM3b396KW2dU+GI41c21mBKLN40K4 eFLd5u8SXlSn4+cVCtolIlRYJspYNQaQO/979lLAfqLUozvcEvjnTH/1mWuIfNzV BDUDQNFSNS2vrMRW1QLzUb9QNm/wQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledruddvkedgieehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeetfeegfeevjeekteegvddvgeffkedtieevudfftdehieeuheegjeejjeetgfdu jeenucffohhmrghinheprhhftgdqvgguihhtohhrrdhorhhgpdhinhhtvghrnhgvthdqug hrrghfthhsrdhorhhgpdhivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudel rddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmh grihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A88961080057; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 23:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 14:58:53 +1100 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6E90BCEE-C9B8-4D33-A218-707EC160730B@mnot.net> References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 03:59:04 -0000 Hi Brian, > On 13 Mar 2021, at 7:53 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > As already noted, this can't really be an IETF document since it = purports to cover all streams. Some parts will need to be initiated by other streams, but they stream = managers can effectively opt into its suggestions. Also, much of it is = about what it *not* associated with the IETF -- which we do control. >> 2.1.3. Proposal 3: domain usage=20 >=20 > I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all = RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate = copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly = have pointers to the canonical copies). >=20 > Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as = pointers. If we can cure ourselves of the addition to the augmented views on tools = and datatracker, I'm all for this. What we really need to encourage is = augmentation of the RFC Editor view (perhaps on the metadata page, = etc.). >> 2.2. Internet-Drafts >>=20 >> The following recommendations apply to the publication of = Internet-Drafts. >=20 > The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of = the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft = becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we = algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from? As unassociated drafts on internet-drafts.org; they're not adopted on = any stream. Cheers, >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 12-Mar-21 14:44, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >>=20 >>=20 >> Title : Clarifying IETF Document Status >> Author : Mark Nottingham >> Filename : = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt >> Pages : 7 >> Date : 2021-03-11 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts = and >> RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and = other >> streams. This document recommends several interventions to more >> closely align reader perceptions with actual document status. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-fro= m/ >>=20 >> There is also an HTML version available at: >> = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from= -00.html >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Mar 14 21:11:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E173A1278 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:11:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.122 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.122 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U1WNKsS6QHTT for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A79273A1251 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DzNJX4G8Rz6G9tG; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1615781468; bh=fzE+BCT9WTUjSkhXWmEGaQpcMXcKxxSpoBIPTpF9p0s=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nIdIwH+2v7fzGTQrJy54yJxGPO4FPNKMUuyst/yptec4dA5j9qs/fOnXMLHjnfyFh 03Xq0WnMNZkvVQxtEPPAuJ1qx5yUkZVfYq7ZPrlT/UCvRAHSLk1mPV7eK5fXLyqj6D ikjSfpJM9p2Fc0LC0gv9Y7umQK1sYkHAcJ/p2iyw= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (unknown [50.225.209.66]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DzNJX0blrz6G9rV; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:11:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> <6E90BCEE-C9B8-4D33-A218-707EC160730B@mnot.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <06a5ed8c-d8fd-8dae-973f-6d869e6736d3@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 00:11:07 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6E90BCEE-C9B8-4D33-A218-707EC160730B@mnot.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 04:11:10 -0000 Mark, I think the whole game with domains is a mistake. As others have said, the content (drafts, RFCs, ...) is mirrored in multiple places. And we want people to do that. Also, when it comes to drafts, it is actually important that individual drafts aimed at a working group be known to and easily visible by the working group. So if folks are using things like the datatracker WG summary page, the drafts need to be there. At which point putting them in a different domain is completely worthelss. I don't object to putting logos on different stream RFCs. I don't know that it will help much. Note that none of your changes would seem to help much with the most common consufion, namely informational or experimental IETF RFCs being treated as Standards Track RFCs by external promoters. And no, I do not think the right answer is to remove Informational or Experimental RFCs. And we already see folks (maybe deliberately, maybe accidentally) confusing individual or WG Internet Drafts with RFCs. Even though any form of reference is completely different. I don't see most of this document as usefully improving much of any of the many problems I have seen. Yours, Joel PS: At least in my experience, folks don't generally conflate or misrepresent either IRTF or Independent Stream documents with IETF product. Maybe if we could figure out why not, we could get more leverage for actually solving the problem. PPS: My recommendation would be to not dispatch this document. On 3/14/2021 11:58 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Brian, > >> On 13 Mar 2021, at 7:53 am, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> As already noted, this can't really be an IETF document since it purports to cover all streams. > > Some parts will need to be initiated by other streams, but they stream managers can effectively opt into its suggestions. Also, much of it is about what it *not* associated with the IETF -- which we do control. > > >>> 2.1.3. Proposal 3: domain usage >> >> I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly have pointers to the canonical copies). >> >> Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as pointers. > > If we can cure ourselves of the addition to the augmented views on tools and datatracker, I'm all for this. What we really need to encourage is augmentation of the RFC Editor view (perhaps on the metadata page, etc.). > > >>> 2.2. Internet-Drafts >>> >>> The following recommendations apply to the publication of Internet-Drafts. >> >> The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from? > > As unassociated drafts on internet-drafts.org; they're not adopted on any stream. > > Cheers, > > >> >> Regards >> Brian >> >> On 12-Mar-21 14:44, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >>> >>> >>> Title : Clarifying IETF Document Status >>> Author : Mark Nottingham >>> Filename : draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt >>> Pages : 7 >>> Date : 2021-03-11 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts and >>> RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and other >>> streams. This document recommends several interventions to more >>> closely align reader perceptions with actual document status. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from/ >>> >>> There is also an HTML version available at: >>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.html >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>> >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > From nobody Sun Mar 14 21:22:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359DA3A12E8 for ; 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Mon, 15 Mar 2021 00:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <06a5ed8c-d8fd-8dae-973f-6d869e6736d3@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:22:05 +1100 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <99F90A14-125C-40E3-A7BD-385BF7F2885A@mnot.net> References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> <6E90BCEE-C9B8-4D33-A218-707EC160730B@mnot.net> <06a5ed8c-d8fd-8dae-973f-6d869e6736d3@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 04:22:15 -0000 Hi Joel, > On 15 Mar 2021, at 3:11 pm, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > Mark, I think the whole game with domains is a mistake. > As others have said, the content (drafts, RFCs, ...) is mirrored in = multiple places. And we want people to do that. I'm not proposing that we disallow people from mirroring drafts and RFCs = - I see the value in mirroring, and even dabble in it myself. What I'm proposing is that we not lend the IETF branding -- in the form = of the domain name, which appears in the browser bar for tools and = datatracker -- to any random draft that gets submitted. That's = misleading as to its status, and is one of the reasons we see I-Ds cited = as 'the IETF draft...'. > Also, when it comes to drafts, it is actually important that = individual drafts aimed at a working group be known to and easily = visible by the working group. So if folks are using things like the = datatracker WG summary page, the drafts need to be there. At which = point putting them in a different domain is completely worthelss. Nothing in the proposal prevents *linking* to drafts elsewhere on such a = page. > I don't object to putting logos on different stream RFCs. I don't = know that it will help much. >=20 > Note that none of your changes would seem to help much with the most = common consufion, namely informational or experimental IETF RFCs being = treated as Standards Track RFCs by external promoters. And no, I do not = think the right answer is to remove Informational or Experimental RFCs. That's indeed a problem, but personally I think we need to get this part = of our house in order before we can tackle it. > And we already see folks (maybe deliberately, maybe accidentally) = confusing individual or WG Internet Drafts with RFCs. Even though any = form of reference is completely different. >=20 > I don't see most of this document as usefully improving much of any of = the many problems I have seen. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > PS: At least in my experience, folks don't generally conflate or = misrepresent either IRTF or Independent Stream documents with IETF = product. Maybe if we could figure out why not, we could get more = leverage for actually solving the problem. >=20 > PPS: My recommendation would be to not dispatch this document. >=20 > On 3/14/2021 11:58 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> Hi Brian, >>> On 13 Mar 2021, at 7:53 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>> As already noted, this can't really be an IETF document since it = purports to cover all streams. >> Some parts will need to be initiated by other streams, but they = stream managers can effectively opt into its suggestions. Also, much of = it is about what it *not* associated with the IETF -- which we do = control. >>>> 2.1.3. Proposal 3: domain usage >>>=20 >>> I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for = all RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate = copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly = have pointers to the canonical copies). >>>=20 >>> Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as = pointers. >> If we can cure ourselves of the addition to the augmented views on = tools and datatracker, I'm all for this. What we really need to = encourage is augmentation of the RFC Editor view (perhaps on the = metadata page, etc.). >>>> 2.2. Internet-Drafts >>>>=20 >>>> The following recommendations apply to the publication of = Internet-Drafts. >>>=20 >>> The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any = of the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft = becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we = algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from? >> As unassociated drafts on internet-drafts.org; they're not adopted on = any stream. >> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> Regards >>> Brian >>>=20 >>> On 12-Mar-21 14:44, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Title : Clarifying IETF Document Status >>>> Author : Mark Nottingham >>>> Filename : = draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt >>>> Pages : 7 >>>> Date : 2021-03-11 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: >>>> There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts = and >>>> RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and = other >>>> streams. This document recommends several interventions to more >>>> closely align reader perceptions with actual document status. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-fro= m/ >>>>=20 >>>> There is also an HTML version available at: >>>> = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from= -00.html >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >>>>=20 >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Gendispatch mailing list >>> Gendispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Mar 14 22:00:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80C03A13C5 for ; 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Mon, 15 Mar 2021 06:00:43 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DzNZd45BFzNvp for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lLelF-000873-Dc for gendispatch@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:23:21 -0700 Received: (qmail 27543 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2021 04:23:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.104]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.146]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 15 Mar 2021 04:23:20 -0000 To: Eliot Lear , Brian E Carpenter Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" References: <161551347322.9380.3417782072654776845@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a5f3d29-2ffe-b47e-59e9-f69eaa228f70@gmail.com> <6AAB9FD1-3EE1-4D26-B875-930607107CAF@cisco.com> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 21:23:18 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6AAB9FD1-3EE1-4D26-B875-930607107CAF@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E12825FA45B67D744B454DC9" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.250 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiquwy+ i6SmItLXxqJRd5s9GHFE1kEpApc/0qepGA558F8hSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVukujs7wKDOGxE6aVvvE3KpotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WX1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dj1kvSgT4G6Wgcnfwvu7dYrS Vs0NaTyayCLHtCSP1V1sb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlmC3rwXqOlfba82Xzq1K1p+3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdla/FmF EBObTmpxrSSTgp422UySeiBhu6vqt+OtpVRLqmhRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Z6hqASwOfbRziKDBc OzJKs9Yq/lrmOIggGSbFQcaLnZSN9/YGRrhMRGhIOTxMW00yF8F1u0YDQf8cLP9taeSLFY0fPBnF 89BphpBNlUg+TzHwBTL1+6vDOMemz/4I88NDcmnEJ4r7C+SwLRamrhQTd3PrpJpP5ewAjeqkzRNl ucyd+NO2McmveAr4ch9F7rE89jihx+Za/cV70jOJzN2r4A== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 05:00:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E12825FA45B67D744B454DC9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not sure that I agree with Mark. Or at least not entirely. Yes, the = way we publish documents is confusing. But I am not sure that Mark's=20 proposal is the best we can do. Mark proposes to distinguish the various categories of RFC based on the=20 stream in which they were published. I think that this classification=20 overlaps and partially conflicts with the nature of the RFC, i.e. the=20 label as standard, BCP, informational and experimental. I think it is=20 important to distinguish standards and BCP documents from the rest, and=20 that Mark's suggestion of an IETF branding is certainly a good idea. But = it is not obvious that informational documents and independent stream=20 documents should have different statuses, or even different branding.=20 Similarly, it is not obvious that IRTF documents shall have different=20 branding from informational or experimental documents from the IETF. It=20 also seems that many IAB documents overlap with the BCP and=20 informational categories, and that branding IAB and IETF documents=20 differently may or may not be a good idea. I am particularly sensitive to the attempt to differentiate branding of=20 informational documents coming through the IETF and through the=20 independent stream. One important function of the independent stream is=20 to provide "checks and balances" to the IETF, and ensure that minority=20 opinions are not silenced. A strong branding differentiation would=20 weaken this function of checks and balances, by clearly marking the=20 minority opinions as second class citizens. -- Christian Huitema On 3/13/2021 12:17 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > This having been said, I agree with Mark that this is a problem, that b= randing can help, and that the matter should get addressed. Where it get= s addressed is a matter of timing. I really do hope that we can dispatch= this work to the new WG-like structure that is being contemplated in the= program. > > Eliot > >> On 13 Mar 2021, at 02:22, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 13-Mar-21 14:14, Salz, Rich wrote: >>> It=E2=80=99s silly to try and have one =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D pla= ce for RFC=E2=80=99s, and deprecate all other locations. Even if it coul= d be done, and I=E2=80=99d like to know why, we want these docs to be wid= ely and freely available. >> Yes, in fact I agree, see my reply to Keith. >> >> Brian >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --------------E12825FA45B67D744B454DC9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I am not sure that I agree with Mark. Or at least not entirely. Yes, the way we publish documents is confusing. But I am not sure that Mark's proposal is the best we can do.

Mark proposes to distinguish the various categories of RFC based on the stream in which they were published. I think that this classification overlaps and partially conflicts with the nature of the RFC, i.e. the label as standard, BCP, informational and experimental. I think it is important to distinguish standards and BCP documents from the rest, and that Mark's suggestion of an IETF branding is certainly a good idea. But it is not obvious that informational documents and independent stream documents should have different statuses, or even different branding. Similarly, it is not obvious that IRTF documents shall have different branding from informational or experimental documents from the IETF. It also seems that many IAB documents overlap with the BCP and informational categories, and that branding IAB and IETF documents differently may or may not be a good idea.

I am particularly sensitive to the attempt to differentiate branding of informational documents coming through the IETF and through the independent stream. One important function of the independent stream is to provide "checks and balances" to the IETF, and ensure that minority opinions are not silenced. A strong branding differentiation would weaken this function of checks and balances, by clearly marking the minority opinions as second class citizens.

-- Christian Huitema

On 3/13/2021 12:17 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
This having been said, I agree with Mark that this is a problem, that branding can help, and that the matter should get addressed.  Where it gets addressed is a matter of timing.  I really do hope that we can dispatch this work to the new WG-like structure that is being contemplated in the program.

Eliot


On 13 Mar 2021, at 02:22, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 13-Mar-21 14:14, Salz, Rich wrote:

It’s silly to try and have one “official” place for RFC’s, and deprecate all other locations.  Even if it could be done, and I’d like to know why, we want these docs to be widely and freely available.

Yes, in fact I agree, see my reply to Keith.

  Brian

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From: Eliot Lear 
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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 14:14:52 +0100
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" 
To: Christian Huitema 
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
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Hi Christian,

> On 15 Mar 2021, at 05:23, Christian Huitema  =
wrote:
>=20
> I am not sure that I agree with Mark. Or at least not entirely. Yes, =
the way we publish documents is confusing. But I am not sure that Mark's =
proposal is the best we can do.
>=20

I=E2=80=99m not sure that I agree with everything in Mark=E2=80=99s =
proposal either, but I think we have to agree that this is a problem =
that has been bothering many people for a long time.

> Mark proposes to distinguish the various categories of RFC based on =
the stream in which they were published. I think that this =
classification overlaps and partially conflicts with the nature of the =
RFC, i.e. the label as standard, BCP, informational and experimental. I =
think it is important to distinguish standards and BCP documents from =
the rest, and that Mark's suggestion of an IETF branding is certainly a =
good idea. But it is not obvious that informational documents and =
independent stream documents should       have different statuses, or =
even different branding. Similarly, it is not obvious that IRTF =
documents shall have different branding from informational or =
experimental documents from the IETF. It also seems that many IAB =
documents overlap with the BCP and informational categories, and that =
branding IAB and IETF documents differently may or may not be a good =
idea.
>=20
These documents do have different statuses.  The only real question is =
how they should best be distinguished.  And we have a lot of =
capabilities, with which to do so.  For instance, the logo of the IETF =
needn=E2=80=99t appear on non-IETF documents.  Also, one could imagine =
either a water mark that indicates that something isn=E2=80=99t a =
standard, or a header or a footer along those lines.  In fact, one could =
imagine that even being applied retroactively to HTML!

> I am particularly sensitive to the attempt to differentiate branding =
of informational documents coming through the IETF and through the =
independent stream. One important function of the independent stream is =
to provide "checks and balances" to the       IETF, and ensure that =
minority opinions are not silenced. A strong branding differentiation =
would weaken this function of checks and balances, by clearly marking =
the minority opinions as second class citizens.
>=20
I don=E2=80=99t think this is the distinction over which to really =
worry.  The bigger concern is whether or not something is an IETF =
standard (proposed or full).  I also don=E2=80=99t see the harm in =
indicating consensus through a visual cue such as a logo.  In fact, I =
could imagine some really entertaining logos to indicate obsolescence or =
updating.

For example, in the upper right hand corner of the display:



I=E2=80=99m sure that someone with more of a creative graphics sense =
could have even more fun.  What the logo looks like is for the IETF to =
decide.  That the logo can be used is for the RFC Editor process to =
decide. Anyway, just food for thought.  [Oh and don=E2=80=99t even start =
on the color situation! ;-]

Eliot

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Hi =
Christian,

On 15 Mar 2021, at 05:23, Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net> wrote:



 =20
  
I am not sure that I agree with Mark. Or =
at least not entirely.
      Yes, the way we publish documents is confusing. But I am not sure
      that Mark's proposal is the best we can do.

I=E2=80=99=
m not sure that I agree with everything in Mark=E2=80=99s proposal =
either, but I think we have to agree that this is a problem that has =
been bothering many people for a long time.


    
Mark proposes to distinguish the various =
categories of RFC based
      on the stream in which they were published. I think that this
      classification overlaps and partially conflicts with the nature of
      the RFC, i.e. the label as standard, BCP, informational and
      experimental. I think it is important to distinguish standards and
      BCP documents from the rest, and that Mark's suggestion of an IETF
      branding is certainly a good idea. But it is not obvious that
      informational documents and independent stream documents should
      have different statuses, or even different branding. Similarly, it
      is not obvious that IRTF documents shall have different branding
      from informational or experimental documents from the IETF. It
      also seems that many IAB documents overlap with the BCP and
      informational categories, and that branding IAB and IETF documents
      differently may or may not be a good =
idea.
These documents do have different statuses.  The only real =
question is how they should best be distinguished.  And we have a =
lot of capabilities, with which to do so.  For instance, the logo =
of the IETF needn=E2=80=99t appear on non-IETF documents.  Also, =
one could imagine either a water mark that indicates that something isn=E2=80=99t a standard, or a header or a footer =
along those lines.  In fact, one could imagine that even being =
applied retroactively to HTML!

I am particularly sensitive to =
the attempt to differentiate
      branding of informational documents coming through the IETF and
      through the independent stream. One important function of the
      independent stream is to provide "checks and balances" to the
      IETF, and ensure that minority opinions are not silenced. A strong
      branding differentiation would weaken this function of checks and
      balances, by clearly marking the minority opinions as second class
      citizens.
I don=E2=80=99t think this =
is the distinction over which to really worry.  The bigger concern =
is whether or not something is an IETF standard (proposed or full). =
 I also don=E2=80=99t see the harm in indicating consensus through =
a visual cue such as a logo.  In fact, I could imagine some really =
entertaining logos to indicate obsolescence or updating.

For example, in the upper right hand corner of the =
display:


I=E2=80=99m sure that =
someone with more of a creative graphics sense could have even more fun. =
 What the logo looks like is for the IETF to decide.  That the =
logo can be used is for the RFC Editor process to decide. Anyway, just =
food for thought.  [Oh and don=E2=80=99t even start on the color =
situation! ;-]

Eliot
=

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From nobody Mon Mar 15 06:27:12 2021
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From: "Rodney W. Grimes" 
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To: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 06:27:05 -0700 (PDT)
CC: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
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Gendisp, etc,
	Three comments inline marked [RWG].
Regards,
Rod

> Mark, I think the whole game with domains is a mistake.
> As others have said, the content (drafts, RFCs, ...) is mirrored in 
> multiple places.  And we want people to do that.
> 
> Also, when it comes to drafts, it is actually important that individual 
> drafts aimed at a working group be known to and easily visible by the 
> working group.  So if folks are using things like the datatracker WG 
> summary page, the drafts need to be there.  At which point putting them 
> in a different domain is completely worthelss.
> 
> I don't object to putting logos on  different stream RFCs.  I don't know 
> that it will help much.

[RWG] I agree that iw wont help much, but perhaps a pre/post very
concise clear statement of the status of a document might help.
People outside the IETF may not even know to look up in the corner
as to what the status: experimental/informational/etc actually means.

> 
> Note that none of your changes would seem to help much with the most 
> common consufion, namely informational or experimental IETF RFCs being 
> treated as Standards Track RFCs by external promoters.  And no, I do not 
> think the right answer is to remove Informational or Experimental RFCs.
> 
> And we already see folks (maybe deliberately, maybe accidentally) 
> confusing individual or WG Internet Drafts with RFCs.  Even though any 
> form of reference is completely different.

[RWG] I have actually seen a rather large open source project propose
adopting an Individual Draft as a policy as if the IETF had
published that work as an RFC.  This is a dangeriously bad state
of affairs and is worth spending some time thinking about how
the IETF can minimize such mistakes.

> 
> I don't see most of this document as usefully improving much of any of 
> the many problems I have seen.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> PS: At least in my experience, folks don't generally conflate or 
> misrepresent either IRTF or Independent Stream documents with IETF 
> product.  Maybe if we could figure out why not, we could get more 
> leverage for actually solving the problem.
> 
> PPS: My recommendation would be to not dispatch this document.

[RWG]  Would it be worth creating a better document, or is this
a solution in need of a problem?

> On 3/14/2021 11:58 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> > Hi Brian,
> > 
> >> On 13 Mar 2021, at 7:53 am, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
> >>
> >> As already  noted, this can't really be an IETF document since it purports to cover all streams.
> > 
> > Some parts will need to be initiated by other streams, but they stream managers can effectively opt into its suggestions. Also, much of it is about what it *not* associated with the IETF -- which we do control.
> > 
> > 
> >>> 2.1.3. Proposal 3: domain usage
> >>
> >> I think this section is actively harmful. The canonical place for all RFCs is rfc-editor.org; I think that we should very likely deprecate copies in any other domains (although those domains should certainly have pointers to the canonical copies).
> >>
> >> Really, RFCs have no place in the IETF data tracker, except as pointers.
> > 
> > If we can cure ourselves of the addition to the augmented views on tools and datatracker, I'm all for this. What we really need to encourage is augmentation of the RFC Editor view (perhaps on the metadata page, etc.).
> > 
> > 
> >>> 2.2. Internet-Drafts
> >>>
> >>> The following recommendations apply to the publication of Internet-Drafts.
> >>
> >> The problem here is that draft-foo-bar has no intrinsic link to any of the streams. A differentiation can only be made later, if the draft becomes draft-ietf-bar or draft-irtf-bar. So how would we algorithmically classify draft-nottingham-quic-new-idea or draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from?
> > 
> > As unassociated drafts on internet-drafts.org; they're not adopted on any stream.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > 
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>    Brian
> >>
> >> On 12-Mar-21 14:44, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> >>>
> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>         Title           : Clarifying IETF Document Status
> >>>         Author          : Mark Nottingham
> >>> 	Filename        : draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
> >>> 	Pages           : 7
> >>> 	Date            : 2021-03-11
> >>>
> >>> Abstract:
> >>>    There is widespread confusion about the status of Internet-Drafts and
> >>>    RFCs, especially regarding their association with the IETF and other
> >>>    streams.  This document recommends several interventions to more
> >>>    closely align reader perceptions with actual document status.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from/
> >>>
> >>> There is also an HTML version available at:
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> >>>
> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> I-D-Announce mailing list
> >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> >>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >>>
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Gendispatch mailing list
> >> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
> > 
> > --
> > Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
> 

-- 
Rod Grimes                                                 rgrimes@freebsd.org


From nobody Mon Mar 15 06:48:53 2021
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To: "Rodney W. Grimes" 
Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org
References: <202103151327.12FDR5oX003868@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" 
Message-ID: <0b169e33-a419-92ce-89fc-1df6d37dc2b1@joelhalpern.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 09:48:45 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-nottingham-where-does-that-come-from-00.txt
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I am happy to discuss (somewhere?  by direct email?  on the IETF list? 
It is not the role of Gendispatch even if we are abusing it that way.) 
ideas for effective ways to keep internet drafts effective while better 
differentiating them.  I have no good ideas to offer, sorry.

Yours,
Joel

On 3/15/2021 9:27 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> Gendisp, etc,
> 	Three comments inline marked [RWG].
> Regards,
> Rod
> 
 >> Joel Halpern wrote
...
>> Note that none of your changes would seem to help much with the most
>> common consufion, namely informational or experimental IETF RFCs being
>> treated as Standards Track RFCs by external promoters.  And no, I do not
>> think the right answer is to remove Informational or Experimental RFCs.
>>
>> And we already see folks (maybe deliberately, maybe accidentally)
>> confusing individual or WG Internet Drafts with RFCs.  Even though any
>> form of reference is completely different.
> 
> [RWG] I have actually seen a rather large open source project propose
> adopting an Individual Draft as a policy as if the IETF had
> published that work as an RFC.  This is a dangeriously bad state
> of affairs and is worth spending some time thinking about how
> the IETF can minimize such mistakes.
> 
...
> 
> [RWG]  Would it be worth creating a better document, or is this
> a solution in need of a problem?
> 


From nobody Wed Mar 24 09:58:26 2021
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From: IETF Administration LLC Board of Directors Chair 
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Hi – The IETF LLC has today posted a statement on OFAC Compliance questions on our blog at https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-ofac-compliance-questions.

Thanks,
Jason Livingood
Chair, IETF LLC Board
LLC-Board-Chair@ietf.org
 
 
++++++++++ How to Contact the IETF LLC ++++++++++
Executive Director: Exec-Director@ietf.org 
Sponsorship: sponsorship@ietf.org
Board: LLC-Board@ietf.org
 
++++++++++ General IETF LLC Board Background ++++++++++
About the IETF LLC: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/
Meeting minutes: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/minutes/
Future meetings: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/llc-board/meeting-info/
Financial statements: https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/financial-statements/


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Subject: [Gendispatch] Updating BCP45 (was: Fwd: is last-call working the way the IESG intended?)
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Hi,

FYI, I started an individual draft to update BCP45 as promised as a =
consequence of the successful conclusion of the last-call experiment =
some years back. Id like to ask to have the discussion of this I-D on =
the gendispatch list. More context below.

Thanks,
Lars


> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Lars Eggert 
> Subject: Re: is last-call working the way the IESG intended?
> Date: March 29, 2021 at 15:10:45 GMT+3
> To: Michael Richardson 
> Cc: The IESG , ietf@ietf.org
>=20
> Hi Michael,
>=20
> On 2021-3-16, at 22:20, Michael Richardson  =
wrote:
>> There has been a very long thread on last-call about the crocker =
draft on
>> email emojis.  I'm now seeing the secdir review of
>> draft-ietf-ecrit-location-profile-registry-policy-01 and subsequent =
thread
>> related to that.  (Not yet as long as emoji)
>>=20
>> Now, I think that the crocker draft was AD sponsored so maybe it =
didn't have
>> another place for the thread to go.  But, certain draft-ietf-ecrit =
should
>> go back to ecrit list only?
>=20
> both of these threads were on Last Call reviews, and so the last-call =
mailing list is an appropriate home for them.
>=20
> I'll also note that he discussion on =
draft-ietf-ecrit-location-profile-registry-policy-01 was CC'ed to the =
ecrit WG, so you could set up your mail filter to move those into your =
ecrit mail folder instead of the last-call folder, should you prefer =
that.
>=20
>> I'm just wondering if last-call is working the way it was imagined it =
would,
>> or if there are some anomalies here.   Should some kind of Reply-To: =
be enforced?
>=20
> We discussed this in the IESG, and we believe that the last-call =
mailing list is working as intended. I'll note that there was a lengthy =
discussion =
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/1Jum0QW3b6AATJXF31P3g7IpUF4/) =
six months after the last-call experiment started that seemed to =
indicate that the community agrees with that assessment.
>=20
> Looking back at the mail archives, I noticed that the email =
establishing the last-call experiment =
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7GbGngqSg/) =
suggested two actions in the case that the experiment concluded =
successfully, which seem to have not been implemented yet:
>=20
> 1. update BCP 45 to formally move the location for last-call =
discussions (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc3005/)
>=20
> 2. update the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call Guidance =
(https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-guidance/)
>=20
> I've started an individual draft on the fist item =
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/), and we'll =
discuss the second item in the IESG.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Lars Eggert
> IETF Chair
>=20


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Hi,

FYI, =
I started an individual draft to update BCP45 as promised as a =
consequence of the successful conclusion of the last-call experiment =
some years back. Id like to ask to have the discussion of this I-D on =
the gendispatch list. More context below.

Thanks,
Lars


Begin =
forwarded message:

From: =
Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: =
Re: is last-call =
working the way the IESG intended?
Date: =
March 29, 2021 at 15:10:45 =
GMT+3
To: =
Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, ietf@ietf.org

Hi Michael,

On 2021-3-16, at 22:20, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
There has been a very long thread on last-call =
about the crocker draft on
email emojis.  I'm now =
seeing the secdir review of
draft-ietf-ecrit-location-profile-registry-policy-01 and =
subsequent thread
related to that.  (Not yet as long =
as emoji)

Now, I think that the crocker =
draft was AD sponsored so maybe it didn't have
another =
place for the thread to go.  But, certain draft-ietf-ecrit =
should
go back to ecrit list only?

both of these threads were on =
Last Call reviews, and so the last-call mailing list is an appropriate =
home for them.

I'll also note that he =
discussion on draft-ietf-ecrit-location-profile-registry-policy-01 was =
CC'ed to the ecrit WG, so you could set up your mail filter to move =
those into your ecrit mail folder instead of the last-call folder, =
should you prefer that.

I'm just wondering if last-call is working the =
way it was imagined it would,
or if there are some =
anomalies here.   Should some kind of Reply-To: be =
enforced?

We discussed this in =
the IESG, and we believe that the last-call mailing list is working as =
intended. I'll note that there was a lengthy discussion (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/1Jum0QW3b6AATJXF31P3=
g7IpUF4/) six months after the last-call experiment started that =
seemed to indicate that the community agrees with that assessment.

Looking back at the mail archives, I noticed =
that the email establishing the last-call experiment (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/LiB_dlvv3ZFlTF8hGp7G=
bGngqSg/) suggested two actions in the case that the experiment =
concluded successfully, which seem to have not been implemented yet:

1. update BCP 45 to formally move the location =
for last-call discussions (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc3005/)

2. update the 2007 IESG Statement on Last Call =
Guidance (https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/last-call-gui=
dance/)

I've started an individual =
draft on the fist item (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/), =
and we'll discuss the second item in the IESG.

Thanks,
Lars Eggert
IETF Chair


=

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To: gendispatch@ietf.org
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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 08:59:34 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
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Thanks for this, it looks good. One small point:

>  *  Questions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings, although	
>  most of these topics are better brought up on the discussion list	
>  for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS] or the attendee	
>  discussion list for a given IETF meeting, such as	
>  [IETF110-ATTENDEES] for IETF-110.

However, since not everybody attends IETF meetings, and therefore
not everybody is on the attendee lists, we should be clear that
messages like "we are going to discuss the very interesting topic X
at the next IETF meeting" do IMHO still belong on the IETF list. The
previous bullet in the draft already says this, but maybe we could
reove any doubt by having this bullet start:

* Questions and clarifications concerning practical aspects of IETF meetings...

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 30-Mar-21 00:58, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 
>         Title           : IETF Discussion List Charter
>         Author          : Lars Eggert
> 	Filename        : draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 6
> 	Date            : 2021-03-29
> 
> Abstract:
>    The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list
>    furthers the development and specification of Internet technology
>    through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated
>    mailing lists exists.  As this is the most general IETF mailing list,
>    considerable latitude is allowed.  Advertising, whether to solicit
>    business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside the
>    range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature.
> 
>    This document obsoletes RFC3005.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/
> 
> There is also an HTML version available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.html
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 


From nobody Mon Mar 29 23:57:10 2021
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To: Brian E Carpenter 
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Hi,

On 2021-3-29, at 22:59, Brian E Carpenter  =
wrote:
>=20
>> *  Questions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings, although
>> most of these topics are better brought up on the discussion list
>> for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS] or the attendee
>> discussion list for a given IETF meeting, such as
>> [IETF110-ATTENDEES] for IETF-110.
>=20
> However, since not everybody attends IETF meetings, and therefore
> not everybody is on the attendee lists, we should be clear that
> messages like "we are going to discuss the very interesting topic X
> at the next IETF meeting" do IMHO still belong on the IETF list. The
> previous bullet in the draft already says this, but maybe we could
> reove any doubt by having this bullet start:
>=20
> * Questions and clarifications concerning practical aspects of IETF =
meetings...

thanks, that is a good suggestion!

Thanks,
Lars


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To: Lars Eggert 
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On 2021-3-29, at 22:59, Brian E Carpenter  =
wrote:
>=20
>> *  Questions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings, although
>> most of these topics are better brought up on the discussion list
>> for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS] or the attendee
>> discussion list for a given IETF meeting, such as
>> [IETF110-ATTENDEES] for IETF-110.
>=20
> However, since not everybody attends IETF meetings, and therefore
> not everybody is on the attendee lists, we should be clear that
> messages like "we are going to discuss the very interesting topic X
> at the next IETF meeting" do IMHO still belong on the IETF list. The
> previous bullet in the draft already says this, but maybe we could
> reove any doubt by having this bullet start:
>=20
> * Questions and clarifications concerning practical aspects of IETF =
meetings...


If the intent is to makes sure that people are aware of relevant =
discussions, even if they're not on one of the attendee lists (and I =
usually decline that), it might be better to use ietf-announce@ -- e.g., =
in a "rollup" e-mail before the meeting, where submissions are solicited =
ahead of time. Or with an open calendar / wiki space (we rely on e-mail =
to much for stateful things anyway).

Again, ietf@ should _not_ be the default place for announcing things. It =
is a subset of the community.

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Eliot Lear 
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Cc: Lars Eggert , gendispatch@ietf.org
To: Mark Nottingham 
References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com>  <963ED8F3-712F-4E8D-BF29-A3E7735E4641@mnot.net>
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Hi,

I=E2=80=99d prefer to discuss fundamentals before we dispatch this =
draft.  The first question I think we should ask is this:

Is there an IETF community, members of which are meant to =
cross-fertilize ideas, such that end product is the most generally =
useful? OR
Are there merely disparate efforts that occasionally interact with one =
another, who all happen to use roughly the same processes and =
publication format?

If one believes the latter, then we might as well dispose of the IETF =
list in its entirety and perhaps let the IESG advise authors as to which =
dispatch function they should use, if needs be.  If one believes the =
former, as I do, then I would rather see the list function to address =
cross-cutting issues that community members would like to discuss.

Regardless, perhaps better modes for discussion (on the IETF list and =
elsewhere) need should be considered.  For instance, a general list =
might best be moderated or curated.  Let it be a bit closer to the IPJ, =
for instance.

Just some thoughts to chew on.

Eliot


> On 30 Mar 2021, at 09:05, Mark Nottingham  wrote:
>=20
> On 2021-3-29, at 22:59, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>>=20
>>> *  Questions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings, although
>>> most of these topics are better brought up on the discussion list
>>> for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS] or the attendee
>>> discussion list for a given IETF meeting, such as
>>> [IETF110-ATTENDEES] for IETF-110.
>>=20
>> However, since not everybody attends IETF meetings, and therefore
>> not everybody is on the attendee lists, we should be clear that
>> messages like "we are going to discuss the very interesting topic X
>> at the next IETF meeting" do IMHO still belong on the IETF list. The
>> previous bullet in the draft already says this, but maybe we could
>> reove any doubt by having this bullet start:
>>=20
>> * Questions and clarifications concerning practical aspects of IETF =
meetings...
>=20
>=20
> If the intent is to makes sure that people are aware of relevant =
discussions, even if they're not on one of the attendee lists (and I =
usually decline that), it might be better to use ietf-announce@ -- e.g., =
in a "rollup" e-mail before the meeting, where submissions are solicited =
ahead of time. Or with an open calendar / wiki space (we rely on e-mail =
to much for stateful things anyway).
>=20
> Again, ietf@ should _not_ be the default place for announcing things. =
It is a subset of the community.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch


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Hi,

I=E2=80=
=99d prefer to discuss fundamentals before we dispatch this draft. =
 The first question I think we should ask is this:

  • Is there an IETF community, members =
of which are meant to cross-fertilize ideas, such that end product is =
the most generally useful? OR
  • Are =
there merely disparate efforts that occasionally interact with one =
another, who all happen to use roughly the same processes and =
publication format?

If one believes the latter, then we might as well dispose of =
the IETF list in its entirety and perhaps let the IESG advise authors as =
to which dispatch function they should use, if needs be.  If one =
believes the former, as I do, then I would rather see the list function =
to address cross-cutting issues that community members would like to =
discuss.

Regardless, perhaps better modes for discussion (on the IETF =
list and elsewhere) need should be considered.  For instance, a =
general list might best be moderated or curated.  Let it be a bit =
closer to the IPJ, for instance.

Just some thoughts to chew =
on.

Eliot


On 30 =
Mar 2021, at 09:05, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

On =
2021-3-29, at 22:59, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

*  Questions and clarifications =
concerning IETF meetings, although
most of these topics =
are better brought up on the discussion list
for IETF LLC =
administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS] or the attendee
discussion list for a given IETF meeting, such as
[IETF110-ATTENDEES] for IETF-110.

However, since not everybody =
attends IETF meetings, and therefore
not everybody is on =
the attendee lists, we should be clear that
messages like =
"we are going to discuss the very interesting topic X
at =
the next IETF meeting" do IMHO still belong on the IETF list. The
previous bullet in the draft already says this, but maybe we =
could
reove any doubt by having this bullet start:

* Questions and clarifications concerning =
practical aspects of IETF meetings...


If the intent is to makes sure that people are =
aware of relevant discussions, even if they're not on one of the =
attendee lists (and I usually decline that), it might be better to use =
ietf-announce@ -- e.g., in a "rollup" e-mail before the meeting, where =
submissions are solicited ahead of time. Or with an open calendar / wiki =
space (we rely on e-mail to much for stateful things anyway).

Again, ietf@ should _not_ be the default place =
for announcing things. It is a subset of the community.

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

-- 
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

=

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From: Lars Eggert 
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Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org
To: Eliot Lear 
References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com>  <963ED8F3-712F-4E8D-BF29-A3E7735E4641@mnot.net> <53AB2142-8BC2-43AC-86E7-EC9F1E72D9D3@cisco.com>
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Hi,

On 2021-3-30, at 13:59, Eliot Lear  =
wrote:
> I=E2=80=99d prefer to discuss fundamentals before we dispatch this =
draft.  The first question I think we should ask is this:
>=20
> 	=E2=80=A2 Is there an IETF community, members of which are meant =
to cross-fertilize ideas, such that end product is the most generally =
useful? OR
> 	=E2=80=A2 Are there merely disparate efforts that occasionally =
interact with one another, who all happen to use roughly the same =
processes and publication format?

I think neither of these two captures my mental model of the IETF, which =
is one of several (many?) communities around different technical (or =
administrative) topics, which are all overlapping one another to some =
degree or another (the topics and the communities both). The union of =
all these communities would be "an IETF community", as in your first =
bullet.

That said, I don't think these differences matter very much, because:

> If one believes the latter, then we might as well dispose of the IETF =
list in its entirety and perhaps let the IESG advise authors as to which =
dispatch function they should use, if needs be.  If one believes the =
former, as I do, then I would rather see the list function to address =
cross-cutting issues that community members would like to discuss.

draft-eggert-bcp45bis doesn't intend to introduce any changes to the =
charter of ietf@ietf.org other than those that are already in effect due =
to the establishment of the last-call list and other lists that have =
been created since BCP45 we published to be a home for recurring =
discussion topics. In other words, draft-eggert-bcp45bisit doesn't =
change the ability for the community to have cross-cutting discussions =
or to cross-fertilize ideas on the ietf@ietf.org list.

(Part of the cross-fertilization, in the form of last-call reviews, now =
happens on the last-call list, but that change wasn't introduced by =
draft-eggert-bcp45bis.)

> Regardless, perhaps better modes for discussion (on the IETF list and =
elsewhere) need should be considered.  For instance, a general list =
might best be moderated or curated.  Let it be a bit closer to the IPJ, =
for instance.

I think draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter makes a pretty convincing =
case that ietf@ietf.org isn't a general list for the IETF community (=3D =
the "union" I mentioned above), and probably hasn't been for quite some =
time.

Whether we can (re?)create such a "general" discussion forum and what =
shape it would take are interesting questions, but go far beyond what =
the purpose of draft-eggert-bcp45bis is.

Thanks,
Lars


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To: Lars Eggert , Eliot Lear 
Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org
References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com>  <963ED8F3-712F-4E8D-BF29-A3E7735E4641@mnot.net> <53AB2142-8BC2-43AC-86E7-EC9F1E72D9D3@cisco.com> <71B14C3D-AF8C-4C7F-9C14-03686F499E4D@eggert.org>
From: Stephen Farrell 
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Hiya,

On 30/03/2021 12:33, Lars Eggert wrote:
> I think draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter makes a pretty
> convincing case thatietf@ietf.org  isn't a general list for the IETF
> community (= the "union" I mentioned above), and probably hasn't been
> for quite some time.

I don't agree that Mark's draft is convincing. I do think
the topics raised are interesting and warrant debate some
place/time, but I don't really agree with the fundamental
ideas that representation and productivity are the most
important characteristics for our broadest discussion venue.

That said, the draft in the subject line doesn't go there
and is fine.

My only quibble with draft-eggert-bcp45bis is that the
opening sentence from section 2 ("This list is meant for
initial technical discussion only.") is badly phrased
and contradicted by later text. I think it'd be better to
say "This list is not meant for detailed technical
discussion that belongs on a WG list or on it's own list,
once such a list exists." (Or, just delete the first
sentence as it's not needed.)

Cheers,
S.


From nobody Tue Mar 30 04:51:58 2021
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From: Lars Eggert 
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To: Stephen Farrell 
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Hi,

On 2021-3-30, at 14:49, Stephen Farrell  wrote:
> My only quibble with draft-eggert-bcp45bis is that the
> opening sentence from section 2 ("This list is meant for
> initial technical discussion only.") is badly phrased
> and contradicted by later text.

true - it's unchanged from RFC3005 at the moment.

> I think it'd be better to
> say "This list is not meant for detailed technical
> discussion that belongs on a WG list or on it's own list,
> once such a list exists." (Or, just delete the first
> sentence as it's not needed.)

I'll come up with a better alternative.

Thanks,
Lars


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From: Eliot Lear 
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Cc: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List 
To: Lars Eggert 
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Hi Lars,

Just two comments for now.

> On 30 Mar 2021, at 13:33, Lars Eggert  wrote:
>=20
> Signed PGP part
> Hi,
>=20
> On 2021-3-30, at 13:59, Eliot Lear  =
wrote:
>> I=E2=80=99d prefer to discuss fundamentals before we dispatch this =
draft.  The first question I think we should ask is this:
>>=20
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Is there an IETF community, members of which are meant =
to cross-fertilize ideas, such that end product is the most generally =
useful? OR
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Are there merely disparate efforts that occasionally =
interact with one another, who all happen to use roughly the same =
processes and publication format?
>=20
> I think neither of these two captures my mental model of the IETF, =
which is one of several (many?) communities around different technical =
(or administrative) topics, which are all overlapping one another to =
some degree or another (the topics and the communities both). The union =
of all these communities would be "an IETF community", as in your first =
bullet.

Sure.  And there may be other ways to look at this as well.

>=20
> That said, I don't think these differences matter very much, because:
>=20
>> If one believes the latter, then we might as well dispose of the IETF =
list in its entirety and perhaps let the IESG advise authors as to which =
dispatch function they should use, if needs be.  If one believes the =
former, as I do, then I would rather see the list function to address =
cross-cutting issues that community members would like to discuss.
>=20
> draft-eggert-bcp45bis doesn't intend to introduce any changes to the =
charter of ietf@ietf.org other than those that are already in effect due =
to the establishment of the last-call list and other lists that have =
been created since BCP45 we published to be a home for recurring =
discussion topics. In other words, draft-eggert-bcp45bisit doesn't =
change the ability for the community to have cross-cutting discussions =
or to cross-fertilize ideas on the ietf@ietf.org list.

That=E2=80=99s my point.  Before we do a BCP45 update, perhaps we should =
ask if we should go farther, and take on Mark=E2=80=99s draft as well in =
this context, and then consider what should be done.  I like the idea of =
facilitated conversation.  I think it could be fun (a term not usually =
associated with the IETF list) but that=E2=80=99s me.  I=E2=80=99m sure =
others have their own ideas.

Eliot

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Cc: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List 
To: Eliot Lear 
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Hi,

On 2021-3-30, at 15:07, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> That=E2=80=99s my point.  Before we do a BCP45 update, perhaps we =
should ask if we should go farther, and take on Mark=E2=80=99s draft as =
well in this context, and then consider what should be done.  I like the =
idea of facilitated conversation.  I think it could be fun (a term not =
usually associated with the IETF list) but that=E2=80=99s me.  I=E2=80=99m=
 sure others have their own ideas.

I'd prefer to do a minimal update to BCP45 soon, to bring its charter =
back in line with its current use.

We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more =
fundamental changes.

Thanks,
Lars


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Cc: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List 
To: Lars Eggert 
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Lars,

> On 30 Mar 2021, at 14:58, Lars Eggert  wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> On 2021-3-30, at 15:07, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>> That=E2=80=99s my point.  Before we do a BCP45 update, perhaps we =
should ask if we should go farther, and take on Mark=E2=80=99s draft as =
well in this context, and then consider what should be done.  I like the =
idea of facilitated conversation.  I think it could be fun (a term not =
usually associated with the IETF list) but that=E2=80=99s me.  I=E2=80=99m=
 sure others have their own ideas.
>=20
> I'd prefer to do a minimal update to BCP45 soon, to bring its charter =
back in line with its current use.
>=20
> We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more =
fundamental changes.

If we have to have consensus on changes, what is the point of =
dispatching at all?  We might as well just go right to RFC from here.  =
You are setting the bar so high that we cannot even have the discussion.

Eliot


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Hi,

On 2021-3-30, at 16:20, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>> On 30 Mar 2021, at 14:58, Lars Eggert  wrote:
>>=20
>> I'd prefer to do a minimal update to BCP45 soon, to bring its charter =
back in line with its current use.
>>=20
>> We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more =
fundamental changes.
>=20
> If we have to have consensus on changes, what is the point of =
dispatching at all?  We might as well just go right to RFC from here.

it isn't clear that we have consensus for the minimal update to BCP45 =
that I'm trying to propose. I'm using gendispatch to get some initial =
feedback.

>  You are setting the bar so high that we cannot even have the =
discussion.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. I'm not setting any bar or stopping any =
discussion. If participants want to make a case for more fundamentally =
revamping the ietf@ietf.org list, or replacing it with some other =
discussion forum, that's completely fine by me.

But that discussion will likely take some time, whereas a minimal update =
to bring BCP45 into alignment with current practice need not be delayed =
by that discussion. And if that minimal update becomes obsolete at that =
point, that's fine, too.

Thanks,
Lars

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On 30-Mar-21 20:05, Mark Nottingham wrote:
> On 2021-3-29, at 22:59, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>>> *  Questions and clarifications concerning IETF meetings, although
>>> most of these topics are better brought up on the discussion list
>>> for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS] or the attendee
>>> discussion list for a given IETF meeting, such as
>>> [IETF110-ATTENDEES] for IETF-110.
>>
>> However, since not everybody attends IETF meetings, and therefore
>> not everybody is on the attendee lists, we should be clear that
>> messages like "we are going to discuss the very interesting topic X
>> at the next IETF meeting" do IMHO still belong on the IETF list. The
>> previous bullet in the draft already says this, but maybe we could
>> reove any doubt by having this bullet start:
>>
>> * Questions and clarifications concerning practical aspects of IETF meetings...
> 
> 
> If the intent is to makes sure that people are aware of relevant discussions, even if they're not on one of the attendee lists (and I usually decline that), it might be better to use ietf-announce@ -- e.g., in a "rollup" e-mail before the meeting, where submissions are solicited ahead of time. Or with an open calendar / wiki space (we rely on e-mail to much for stateful things anyway).

Sure, if it's an "official" topic that somebody with posting rights for -announce decides to publicise.
 
> Again, ietf@ should _not_ be the default place for announcing things. It is a subset of the community.

But it's the list that anybody can write to about possibly heretical ideas, including people outside the leadership bubble. (Also, BTW, ietf-announce is a shockingly small subset of the community. A lot of people apparently limit themselves to specific IETF echo chambers.)

On that topic, my own experience is that twice in my life, I have stopped reading ietf@ for about a year - once when I stepped down from the IAB, and once when I stepped down from the IESG. Both times, I felt like a break from the rather weird threads that sometimes develop there. Both times, I rejoined because I don't know a better way to hear what's on people's minds.

Regards
   Brian
 


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To: Lars Eggert , Eliot Lear 
Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear 
References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com>  <963ED8F3-712F-4E8D-BF29-A3E7735E4641@mnot.net> <53AB2142-8BC2-43AC-86E7-EC9F1E72D9D3@cisco.com> <71B14C3D-AF8C-4C7F-9C14-03686F499E4D@eggert.org> <0B3C59C9-5057-4DC2-AF1E-CA3216436996@cisco.com> <10400F6C-C9E3-4136-A4FE-D97B83E6F67C@eggert.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:13:03 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
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On 31-Mar-21 01:58, Lars Eggert wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> On 2021-3-30, at 15:07, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>> That=E2=80=99s my point.  Before we do a BCP45 update, perhaps we shou=
ld ask if we should go farther, and take on Mark=E2=80=99s draft as well =
in this context, and then consider what should be done.  I like the idea =
of facilitated conversation.  I think it could be fun (a term not usually=
 associated with the IETF list) but that=E2=80=99s me.  I=E2=80=99m sure =
others have their own ideas.
>=20
> I'd prefer to do a minimal update to BCP45 soon, to bring its charter b=
ack in line with its current use.

Yes please. And I think it can be dispatched fairly rapidly as an AD-spon=
sored draft, for which I hope Lars can find an AD ;-).

>=20
> We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more fundamen=
tal changes.

Agreed, and that needs a much deeper analysis. And IMNSHO there are many =
much more important process issues to resolve than the occasional unruly =
threads on ietf@. Just to pick one at random, what can we do to prevent s=
omething like Cluster 238 ever happening again?

    Brian


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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:20:52 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Brian E Carpenter 
Cc: Lars Eggert , Eliot Lear ,  GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004eb81505bec6be71"
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
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--0000000000004eb81505bec6be71
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On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:13 PM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31-Mar-21 01:58, Lars Eggert wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 2021-3-30, at 15:07, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> >> That=E2=80=99s my point.  Before we do a BCP45 update, perhaps we shou=
ld ask if
> we should go farther, and take on Mark=E2=80=99s draft as well in this co=
ntext, and
> then consider what should be done.  I like the idea of facilitated
> conversation.  I think it could be fun (a term not usually associated wit=
h
> the IETF list) but that=E2=80=99s me.  I=E2=80=99m sure others have their=
 own ideas.
> >
> > I'd prefer to do a minimal update to BCP45 soon, to bring its charter
> back in line with its current use.
>
> Yes please. And I think it can be dispatched fairly rapidly as an
> AD-sponsored draft, for which I hope Lars can find an AD ;-).
>
> >
> > We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more
> fundamental changes.
>
> Agreed, and that needs a much deeper analysis. And IMNSHO there are many
> much more important process issues to resolve than the occasional unruly
> threads on ietf@. Just to pick one at random, what can we do to prevent
> something like Cluster 238 ever happening again?
>

This is a bit hard to answer without having a clearer statement
of what went wrong with C238.

I could imagine several objections here:

- We shouldn't have projects which require changes to large
  chunks of the protocol suite.

- We shouldn't have to publish all the documents in those
  projects simultaneously.

- It's hard for the RPC to manage the simultaneous publication
  of all those documents.

- Something else?

It seems like each of these might have different solutions.

-Ekr

--0000000000004eb81505bec6be71
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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=

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:13 PM Brian=
 E Carpenter <brian.e.car=
penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31-Mar-21 01:58, Lars Eggert wrote:

> Hi,

> 

> On 2021-3-30, at 15:07, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

>> That=E2=80=99s my point.=C2=A0 Before we do a BCP45 update, perhap=
s we should ask if we should go farther, and take on Mark=E2=80=99s draft a=
s well in this context, and then consider what should be done.=C2=A0 I like=
 the idea of facilitated conversation.=C2=A0 I think it could be fun (a ter=
m not usually associated with the IETF list) but that=E2=80=99s me.=C2=A0 I=
=E2=80=99m sure others have their own ideas.

> 

> I'd prefer to do a minimal update to BCP45 soon, to bring its char=
ter back in line with its current use.



Yes please. And I think it can be dispatched fairly rapidly as an AD-sponso=
red draft, for which I hope Lars can find an AD ;-).



> 

> We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more fundame=
ntal changes.



Agreed, and that needs a much deeper analysis. And IMNSHO there are many mu=
ch more important process issues to resolve than the occasional unruly thre=
ads on ietf@. Just to pick one at random, what can we do to prevent somethi=
ng like Cluster 238 ever happening again?

This is a bit hard to answer without having a clearer statement
of wh=
at went wrong with C238.

I could imagine several objections here:
- We shouldn't have projects which require changes to large
=C2=
=A0 chunks of the protocol suite.

- We shouldn't have to publish=
 all the documents in those
=C2=A0 projects simultaneously.

- It&=
#39;s hard for the RPC to manage the simultaneous publication
=C2=A0 of =
all those documents.

- Something else?

It seems like each of =
these might have different solutions.

-Ekr


--0000000000004eb81505bec6be71--


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To: Eric Rescorla 
Cc: Lars Eggert , Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear 
References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com>  <963ED8F3-712F-4E8D-BF29-A3E7735E4641@mnot.net> <53AB2142-8BC2-43AC-86E7-EC9F1E72D9D3@cisco.com> <71B14C3D-AF8C-4C7F-9C14-03686F499E4D@eggert.org> <0B3C59C9-5057-4DC2-AF1E-CA3216436996@cisco.com> <10400F6C-C9E3-4136-A4FE-D97B83E6F67C@eggert.org> <9134c6cc-8f44-e4e7-c4aa-8a0dd271adf9@gmail.com> 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Message-ID: <7b5abd62-092a-69c4-f818-d8870a7324b7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:06:22 +1300
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Subject: [Gendispatch] Large cluster [Re: I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt]
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Off topic, but just to clarify my intention:

On 31-Mar-21 09:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:13 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote:
>=20
=2E..
>     > We can always revise it again, when there is consensus on more fu=
ndamental changes.
>=20
>     Agreed, and that needs a much deeper analysis. And IMNSHO there are=
 many much more important process issues to resolve than the occasional u=
nruly threads on ietf@. Just to pick one at random, what can we do to pre=
vent something like Cluster 238 ever happening again?
>=20
>=20
> This is a bit hard to answer without having a clearer statement
> of what went wrong with C238.

There's a partial analysis at https://www.ietf.org/blog/webrtc-pandemic/

>=20
> I could imagine several objections here:
>=20
> - We shouldn't have projects which require changes to large
> =C2=A0 chunks of the protocol suite.
>=20
> - We shouldn't have to publish all the documents in those
> =C2=A0 projects simultaneously.
>=20
> - It's hard for the RPC to manage the simultaneous publication
> =C2=A0 of all those documents.
>=20
> - Something else?
>=20
> It seems like each of these might have different solutions.

Indeed, and some of them are related to the old question of how to
dynamically document complex standards with components at different
maturity levels. My real question is: are we going to duck the hard
questions about the IETF standards process?

    Brian


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To: gendispatch@ietf.org, Lars Eggert 
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
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I think this draft needs, at a very minimum, an editing pass. The=20
problem starts with the first paragraph:


    The IETF discussion list [IETF-DISCUSS] furthers the development and
    specification of Internet technology through the general discussion
    of topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exists.  As this is
    the most general IETF mailing list, considerable latitude is allowed.=


OK. So you are telling us that there is this discussion list, and "consid=
erable latitude is allowed".
But that's not quite the point of the draft. Indeed, the next sentence sa=
ys:

 =C2=A0Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment
    opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as
    do discussions of a personal nature.

Why do we have to say that in the introduction? What is this document tha=
t jumps from latitude
to, by the way, no advertising? I think there is something missing. The v=
ery purpose of the
document appears to be, "considerable latitude is allowed, but there are =
limits. In the
following section, we explain these limits, and the processes used to enf=
orce them."

And then we can have an open discussion about what the limits shall be. A=
dvertising, tone and
code of conduct, overlap with WG lists, etc.

-- Christian Huitema

> On 30-Mar-21 00:58, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.
>>
>>
>>          Title           : IETF Discussion List Charter
>>          Author          : Lars Eggert
>> 	Filename        : draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
>> 	Pages           : 6
>> 	Date            : 2021-03-29
>>
>> Abstract:
>>     The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list=

>>     furthers the development and specification of Internet technology
>>     through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated
>>     mailing lists exists.  As this is the most general IETF mailing li=
st,
>>     considerable latitude is allowed.  Advertising, whether to solicit=

>>     business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside t=
he
>>     range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature=
=2E
>>
>>     This document obsoletes RFC3005.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/
>>
>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.html
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-01
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>

--------------BA71991C3F10146EF9E6393E
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    I think this draft needs, at a very minimum, an editing pass. The
    problem starts with the first paragraph:

    


    

    
   The IETF discussion list [IETF-DISCUSS] furthers the development and
   specification of Internet technology through the general discussion
   of topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exists.  As this is
   the most general IETF mailing list, considerable latitude is allowed.

OK. So you are telling us that there is this discussion list, and "considerable latitude is allowed".
But that's not quite the point of the draft. Indeed, the next sentence says:

 Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment
   opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as
   do discussions of a personal nature.

Why do we have to say that in the introduction? What is this document that jumps from latitude
to, by the way, no advertising? I think there is something missing. The very purpose of the
document appears to be, "considerable latitude is allowed, but there are limits. In the
following section, we explain these limits, and the processes used to enforce them."

And then we can have an open discussion about what the limits shall be. Advertising, tone and
code of conduct, overlap with WG lists, etc.

-- Christian Huitema


    

      
On 30-Mar-21 00:58, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:


      

        
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : IETF Discussion List Charter
        Author          : Lars Eggert
	Filename        : draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2021-03-29

Abstract:
   The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list
   furthers the development and specification of Internet technology
   through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated
   mailing lists exists.  As this is the most general IETF mailing list,
   considerable latitude is allowed.  Advertising, whether to solicit
   business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside the
   range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature.

   This document obsoletes RFC3005.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



      

      

    

  


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From: Mark Nottingham 
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To: Stephen Farrell 
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On 30 Mar 2021, at 10:49 pm, Stephen Farrell  =
wrote:
>=20
>> I think draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter makes a pretty
>> convincing case thatietf@ietf.org  isn't a general list for the IETF
>> community (=3D the "union" I mentioned above), and probably hasn't =
been
>> for quite some time.
>=20
> I don't agree that Mark's draft is convincing. I do think
> the topics raised are interesting and warrant debate some
> place/time, but I don't really agree with the fundamental
> ideas that representation and productivity are the most
> important characteristics for our broadest discussion venue.

If that's what you got from my draft, I didn't communicate well.

I want to be informed about new topics of interest in the IETF, whether =
they're announcements by leadership or discussions instigated by the =
community. However, IME the ietf@ list is a horrible venue for both =
tasks. Some will undoubtedly debate that, and I'm not really interested =
in convincing them. However, I feel quite strongly that ietf@ cannot and =
should not ever be considered the _canonical_ place for such tasks -- =
i.e., no one should ever be able to say 'well, it was discussed on =
ietf@, it's your fault you weren't there.'

One of the ways we can assure that it isn't considered as such is to =
establish alternatives. For example, we could set up a Discourse =
instance  for people to ask IETF-wide =
questions, make proposals, or circulate ideas informally. With proper =
moderation, categorisation, and tagging, I suspect it would be a much =
more broadly used facility than the IETF list.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Lars Eggert 
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Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org
To: Christian Huitema 
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Hi,

On 2021-3-31, at 1:59, Christian Huitema  wrote:
> I think this draft needs, at a very minimum, an editing pass. The =
problem starts with the first paragraph:
>=20
>    The IETF discussion list [IETF-DISCUSS] furthers the development =
and
>    specification of Internet technology through the general discussion
>    of topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exists.  As this is
>    the most general IETF mailing list, considerable latitude is =
allowed.
>=20
> OK. So you are telling us that there is this discussion list, and =
"considerable latitude is allowed".
> But that's not quite the point of the draft. Indeed, the next sentence =
says:
>=20
>  Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment
>    opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, =
as
>    do discussions of a personal nature.
>=20
> Why do we have to say that in the introduction? What is this document =
that jumps from latitude
> to, by the way, no advertising?

FWIW, that text is unchanged from RFC3005.

> I think there is something missing. The very purpose of the
> document appears to be, "considerable latitude is allowed, but there =
are limits. In the
> following section, we explain these limits, and the processes used to =
enforce them."
>=20
> And then we can have an open discussion about what the limits shall =
be. Advertising, tone and
> code of conduct, overlap with WG lists, etc.

I'll try to reflect this suggestion in the text.

Thanks,
Lars



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From: Mallory Knodel 
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Hi,

On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to discuss diversity
>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very divisive and
>      destructive.
>
>
> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first step because some think it is easier to handle?
>
Slight redireciton, which might change the way this conversation plays out:

This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing on 
racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger social ills 
as they play out within its community, eg as through initiatives like 
using inclusive language.

We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.

-Mallory

-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
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From nobody Wed Mar 31 06:35:50 2021
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From: Dan Harkins 
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   Howdy,

On 3/31/21 6:10 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to 
>> discuss diversity
>>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very divisive and
>>      destructive.
>>
>>
>> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first step 
>> because some think it is easier to handle?
>>
> Slight redireciton, which might change the way this conversation plays 
> out:
>
> This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing on 
> racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
> institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger social 
> ills as they play out within its community, eg as through initiatives 
> like using inclusive language.

   Uhm...no. Defining racism as "systemic social oppression" means that 
certain groups
(those who do not wield systemic power) cannot commit racism. And that's 
just wrong.
Racism is actually the act of prejudice and antagonism against people on 
the basis
of their race. As the recent rash of anti-Asian violence in the USA 
committed by African-
Americans has shown, racism is not exclusive and can be practiced by 
anyone, regardless
of any power dynamic or "systemic" capability.

   And while this is, indeed, a social ill it is not up to a technical 
standards body like the IETF
to ameliorate it. We have protocols to finish!

   If you see racism at the IETF, call it out and see it gets dealt 
with. Nota bene: disparate impact
is not evidence of racism.

> We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.

    You're talking about a group's racial identity. You treat 
individuals as members of a
group. I still maintain that is divisive and destructive and I don't 
think it's a good path
for anyone to go down, certainly not us.

   Dan.

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius


From nobody Wed Mar 31 07:17:25 2021
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To: Dan Harkins , "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" 
References:  <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com>   <75b90e7c-837d-e271-987b-0f22361d44a3@cdt.org> <876b2018-e720-97d8-0bdf-8941aa42a7b0@lounge.org>
From: Mallory Knodel 
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On 3/31/21 9:35 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:
>
>
> On 3/31/21 6:10 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>
>> On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>>>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to 
>>> discuss diversity
>>>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very 
>>> divisive and
>>>      destructive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first step 
>>> because some think it is easier to handle?
>>>
>>
>> This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing on 
>> racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
>> institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger social 
>> ills as they play out within its community, eg as through initiatives 
>> like using inclusive language.
>
>   Uhm...no. Defining racism as "systemic social oppression" means 
> that certain groups
> (those who do not wield systemic power) cannot commit racism.

It's not my definition.

We're not concerned with who is doing the committing.

> Racism is actually the act of prejudice and antagonism against people 
> on the basis
> of their race.

That's discrimination and hate crimes, et al. Those are prohibited in 
the IETF by BCP 54.

There are relationships between all of these concepts, but it's 
important to be clear where TERM is focussed.

>   And while this is, indeed, a social ill it is not up to a technical 
> standards body like the IETF
> to ameliorate it. We have protocols to finish!

I said:

> it's within an institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these 
> larger social ills as they play out within its community, eg as 
> through initiatives like using inclusive language

>> We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.
>
>    You're talking about a group's racial identity. You treat 
> individuals as members of a
> group. I still maintain that is divisive and destructive and I don't 
> think it's a good path
> for anyone to go down, certainly not us.

Research and academic scholarship has shown that for diversity, equity 
and inclusion efforts to be effective that concrete actions have to be 
taken, beyond just a vague commitment to do better. That just makes us 
feel better temporarily without actually changing anything. The IETF is 
doing concrete things, and it's really great to see. One of the 
important elements is to _elevate_ identity because in an unequal and 
exclusive community, bias is _hidden_ identity discrimination.

No doubt this is divisive, though IME it's uniquely acute in the IETF. 
It might also be temporarily destructive (anti-racism is about 
destroying racism, after all). However, a strong and goal-oriented 
(protocols!) community like the IETF will certainly survive TERM for the 
better.

-Mallory

-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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To: Mallory Knodel , Dan Harkins , "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" 
References:  <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com>   <75b90e7c-837d-e271-987b-0f22361d44a3@cdt.org> <876b2018-e720-97d8-0bdf-8941aa42a7b0@lounge.org> <1ca9e781-2f5c-355f-ac75-37dc00b1d650@cdt.org>
From: Tony Rutkowski 
Message-ID: <6d25f656-2f72-0a31-56c1-12aaac28614b@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 10:52:17 -0400
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It is not clear why the focus here has avoided other fundamental rights 
related to discriminatory behavior, e.g., xenophobism, antisemitism, 
sexual orientation.  A rather full enumeration can be found at 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00

It is relevant because the IETF and its participants are subject to 
legal requirements relating to proactive (rather than passive) 
mitigation of discriminatory, along with transparency and 
anticompetitive behaviors.

--tony r


On 31-Mar-21 10:17 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>
> On 3/31/21 9:35 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3/31/21 6:10 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>>>>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to 
>>>> discuss diversity
>>>>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very divisive and
>>>>      destructive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first 
>>>> step because some think it is easier to handle?
>>>>
>>>
>>> This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing on 
>>> racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
>>> institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger social 
>>> ills as they play out within its community, eg as through 
>>> initiatives like using inclusive language.
>>
>>   Uhm...no. Defining racism as "systemic social oppression" means 
>> that certain groups
>> (those who do not wield systemic power) cannot commit racism.
>
> It's not my definition.
>
> We're not concerned with who is doing the committing.
>
>> Racism is actually the act of prejudice and antagonism against people 
>> on the basis
>> of their race.
>
> That's discrimination and hate crimes, et al. Those are prohibited in 
> the IETF by BCP 54.
>
> There are relationships between all of these concepts, but it's 
> important to be clear where TERM is focussed.
>
>>   And while this is, indeed, a social ill it is not up to a technical 
>> standards body like the IETF
>> to ameliorate it. We have protocols to finish!
>
> I said:
>
>> it's within an institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these 
>> larger social ills as they play out within its community, eg as 
>> through initiatives like using inclusive language
>
>>> We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.
>>
>>    You're talking about a group's racial identity. You treat 
>> individuals as members of a
>> group. I still maintain that is divisive and destructive and I don't 
>> think it's a good path
>> for anyone to go down, certainly not us.
>
> Research and academic scholarship has shown that for diversity, equity 
> and inclusion efforts to be effective that concrete actions have to be 
> taken, beyond just a vague commitment to do better. That just makes us 
> feel better temporarily without actually changing anything. The IETF 
> is doing concrete things, and it's really great to see. One of the 
> important elements is to _elevate_ identity because in an unequal and 
> exclusive community, bias is _hidden_ identity discrimination.
>
> No doubt this is divisive, though IME it's uniquely acute in the IETF. 
> It might also be temporarily destructive (anti-racism is about 
> destroying racism, after all). However, a strong and goal-oriented 
> (protocols!) community like the IETF will certainly survive TERM for 
> the better.
>
> -Mallory
>


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To: Tony Rutkowski , Dan Harkins , "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" 
References:  <6F387137-46E4-4CDE-9BCA-CAED684D3AA1@sn3rd.com> <32149fda-1d17-c167-1699-43ed3c02f516@si6networks.com>   <75b90e7c-837d-e271-987b-0f22361d44a3@cdt.org> <876b2018-e720-97d8-0bdf-8941aa42a7b0@lounge.org> <1ca9e781-2f5c-355f-ac75-37dc00b1d650@cdt.org> <6d25f656-2f72-0a31-56c1-12aaac28614b@gmail.com>
From: Mallory Knodel 
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Agree that nothing whatsoever should prevent IETF from addressing these 
issues urgently,

-Mallory

On 3/31/21 10:52 AM, Tony Rutkowski wrote:
> It is not clear why the focus here has avoided other fundamental 
> rights related to discriminatory behavior, e.g., xenophobism, 
> antisemitism, sexual orientation.  A rather full enumeration can be 
> found at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00
>
> It is relevant because the IETF and its participants are subject to 
> legal requirements relating to proactive (rather than passive) 
> mitigation of discriminatory, along with transparency and 
> anticompetitive behaviors.
>
> --tony r
>
>
> On 31-Mar-21 10:17 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>
>> On 3/31/21 9:35 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/31/21 6:10 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>>>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>>>>>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to 
>>>>> discuss diversity
>>>>>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very 
>>>>> divisive and
>>>>>      destructive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first 
>>>>> step because some think it is easier to handle?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing 
>>>> on racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
>>>> institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger social 
>>>> ills as they play out within its community, eg as through 
>>>> initiatives like using inclusive language.
>>>
>>>   Uhm...no. Defining racism as "systemic social oppression" means 
>>> that certain groups
>>> (those who do not wield systemic power) cannot commit racism.
>>
>> It's not my definition.
>>
>> We're not concerned with who is doing the committing.
>>
>>> Racism is actually the act of prejudice and antagonism against 
>>> people on the basis
>>> of their race.
>>
>> That's discrimination and hate crimes, et al. Those are prohibited in 
>> the IETF by BCP 54.
>>
>> There are relationships between all of these concepts, but it's 
>> important to be clear where TERM is focussed.
>>
>>>   And while this is, indeed, a social ill it is not up to a 
>>> technical standards body like the IETF
>>> to ameliorate it. We have protocols to finish!
>>
>> I said:
>>
>>> it's within an institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these 
>>> larger social ills as they play out within its community, eg as 
>>> through initiatives like using inclusive language
>>
>>>> We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.
>>>
>>>    You're talking about a group's racial identity. You treat 
>>> individuals as members of a
>>> group. I still maintain that is divisive and destructive and I don't 
>>> think it's a good path
>>> for anyone to go down, certainly not us.
>>
>> Research and academic scholarship has shown that for diversity, 
>> equity and inclusion efforts to be effective that concrete actions 
>> have to be taken, beyond just a vague commitment to do better. That 
>> just makes us feel better temporarily without actually changing 
>> anything. The IETF is doing concrete things, and it's really great to 
>> see. One of the important elements is to _elevate_ identity because 
>> in an unequal and exclusive community, bias is _hidden_ identity 
>> discrimination.
>>
>> No doubt this is divisive, though IME it's uniquely acute in the 
>> IETF. It might also be temporarily destructive (anti-racism is about 
>> destroying racism, after all). However, a strong and goal-oriented 
>> (protocols!) community like the IETF will certainly survive TERM for 
>> the better.
>>
>> -Mallory
>>
-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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From: Pete Resnick 
To: Mallory Knodel 
Cc: Tony Rutkowski , Dan Harkins , "Salz, Rich" , terminology@ietf.org
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:21:40 -0500
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[Bcc'ing gendispatch; Cc'ing terminology]

Folks, please move this discussion over to the terminology list.

pr

On 31 Mar 2021, at 10:02, Mallory Knodel wrote:

> Agree that nothing whatsoever should prevent IETF from addressing 
> these issues urgently,
>
> -Mallory
>
> On 3/31/21 10:52 AM, Tony Rutkowski wrote:
>> It is not clear why the focus here has avoided other fundamental 
>> rights related to discriminatory behavior, e.g., xenophobism, 
>> antisemitism, sexual orientation.  A rather full enumeration can be 
>> found at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rutkowski-hrpc-hraas-00
>>
>> It is relevant because the IETF and its participants are subject to 
>> legal requirements relating to proactive (rather than passive) 
>> mitigation of discriminatory, along with transparency and 
>> anticompetitive behaviors.
>>
>> --tony r
>>
>>
>> On 31-Mar-21 10:17 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>>
>>> On 3/31/21 9:35 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/31/21 6:10 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>>>>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>>>>>>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which 
>>>>>> to discuss diversity
>>>>>>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very 
>>>>>> divisive and
>>>>>>      destructive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first 
>>>>>> step because some think it is easier to handle?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing 
>>>>> on racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
>>>>> institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger 
>>>>> social ills as they play out within its community, eg as through 
>>>>> initiatives like using inclusive language.
>>>>
>>>>   Uhm...no. Defining racism as "systemic social oppression" means 
>>>> that certain groups
>>>> (those who do not wield systemic power) cannot commit racism.
>>>
>>> It's not my definition.
>>>
>>> We're not concerned with who is doing the committing.
>>>
>>>> Racism is actually the act of prejudice and antagonism against 
>>>> people on the basis
>>>> of their race.
>>>
>>> That's discrimination and hate crimes, et al. Those are prohibited 
>>> in the IETF by BCP 54.
>>>
>>> There are relationships between all of these concepts, but it's 
>>> important to be clear where TERM is focussed.
>>>
>>>>   And while this is, indeed, a social ill it is not up to a 
>>>> technical standards body like the IETF
>>>> to ameliorate it. We have protocols to finish!
>>>
>>> I said:
>>>
>>>> it's within an institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate 
>>>> these larger social ills as they play out within its community, eg 
>>>> as through initiatives like using inclusive language
>>>
>>>>> We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.
>>>>
>>>>    You're talking about a group's racial identity. You treat 
>>>> individuals as members of a
>>>> group. I still maintain that is divisive and destructive and I 
>>>> don't think it's a good path
>>>> for anyone to go down, certainly not us.
>>>
>>> Research and academic scholarship has shown that for diversity, 
>>> equity and inclusion efforts to be effective that concrete actions 
>>> have to be taken, beyond just a vague commitment to do better. That 
>>> just makes us feel better temporarily without actually changing 
>>> anything. The IETF is doing concrete things, and it's really great 
>>> to see. One of the important elements is to _elevate_ identity 
>>> because in an unequal and exclusive community, bias is _hidden_ 
>>> identity discrimination.
>>>
>>> No doubt this is divisive, though IME it's uniquely acute in the 
>>> IETF. It might also be temporarily destructive (anti-racism is about 
>>> destroying racism, after all). However, a strong and goal-oriented 
>>> (protocols!) community like the IETF will certainly survive TERM for 
>>> the better.
>>>
>>> -Mallory
>>>
> -- 
> Mallory Knodel
> CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology
> gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780


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On 3/31/21 7:17 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>
> On 3/31/21 9:35 AM, Dan Harkins wrote:
>>
>> On 3/31/21 6:10 AM, Mallory Knodel wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2/23/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>>>>>   There seems to be a desire to have the group focus
>>>>      (first/primarily?) on race as the single axis in which to 
>>>> discuss diversity
>>>>      and inclusiveness, e.g. [1]-- and that would be very divisive and
>>>>      destructive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think it would be destructive, as opposed to a first 
>>>> step because some think it is easier to handle?
>>>>
>>>
>>> This work hasn't been chartered to focus on race; we're focussing on 
>>> racism. Racism is systemic social oppression, so it's within an 
>>> institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these larger social 
>>> ills as they play out within its community, eg as through 
>>> initiatives like using inclusive language.
>>
>>   Uhm...no. Defining racism as "systemic social oppression" means 
>> that certain groups
>> (those who do not wield systemic power) cannot commit racism.
>
> It's not my definition.

   If it's not your definition then why did you say, "Racism is systemic 
social oppression"?

   Seems it most definitely IS your definition.

> We're not concerned with who is doing the committing.

   You're playing a semantic game. You're concerned with "what" is doing
the committing and that "what" is composed of people who have a certain
racial makeup.

>> Racism is actually the act of prejudice and antagonism against people 
>> on the basis
>> of their race.
>
> That's discrimination and hate crimes, et al. Those are prohibited in 
> the IETF by BCP 54.

   Actually no. It's not. It's EXACTLY what comes up when you google 
"definition of racism",
it's the common, accepted definition of the term.

> There are relationships between all of these concepts, but it's 
> important to be clear where TERM is focussed.
>
>>   And while this is, indeed, a social ill it is not up to a technical 
>> standards body like the IETF
>> to ameliorate it. We have protocols to finish!
>
> I said:
>
>> it's within an institution like the IETF's remit to ameliorate these 
>> larger social ills as they play out within its community, eg as 
>> through initiatives like using inclusive language
>
>>> We're not talking about individuals' racial identities.
>>
>>    You're talking about a group's racial identity. You treat 
>> individuals as members of a
>> group. I still maintain that is divisive and destructive and I don't 
>> think it's a good path
>> for anyone to go down, certainly not us.
>
> Research and academic scholarship has shown that for diversity, equity 
> and inclusion efforts to be effective that concrete actions have to be 
> taken, beyond just a vague commitment to do better. That just makes us 
> feel better temporarily without actually changing anything. The IETF 
> is doing concrete things, and it's really great to see. One of the 
> important elements is to _elevate_ identity because in an unequal and 
> exclusive community, bias is _hidden_ identity discrimination.

    Define "effective" as it relates to the core function of the IETF. 
What permanent
change do you wish to see?

   And I would love to see the scholarship you refer to, please send 
pointers (but if
it's behind a pay wall don't bother).

   In your hypothetical community A may cause B, but everywhere else an 
observed B
does not mean A.

> No doubt this is divisive, though IME it's uniquely acute in the IETF. 

   Really? So please do call out the racism and bias of the IETF, 
explicitly. Let me
remind you again that disparate impact is not evidence of racism and it 
is a fallacy
(specifically, the residual fallacy [1]) to claim otherwise. So, 
excluding disparate
impact, where is this racism and bias you speak of?

> It might also be temporarily destructive (anti-racism is about 
> destroying racism, after all). However, a strong and goal-oriented 
> (protocols!) community like the IETF will certainly survive TERM for 
> the better.

   You pit one group against another. That's destructive and it ain't 
temporary. The
whole "anti-racism" agenda is Maoist struggle sessions. it's the 
cultural revolution
all over again, you just haven't brought out the dunce cap (yet). 
Nothing good came
out of that nonsense and nothing good will come if we try it again.

   Dan.


[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4LjWMITwXs

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius


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On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote:
> Let me remind you again that disparate impact is not evidence of
> racism and it is a fallacy (specifically, the residual fallacy [1]) to
> claim otherwise. So, excluding disparate impact, where is this racism
> and bias you speak of?

The IETF's volunteer nature, with no gatekeepers, means that the IETF
can neither be the cause of nor the solution to lack of diversity of any
kind.  Though perhaps in order for the IETF to join our brave new
age-of-the-hyper-ostrakon, we must have gatekeepers (who hopefully will
only ever discriminate on the basis of approved criteria).

Nico
-- 


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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker 
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 14:53:01 -0400
Message-ID: 
To: Nico Williams 
Cc: Dan Harkins , Mallory Knodel ,  "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006639fe05bed9a016"
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--0000000000006639fe05bed9a016
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On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 2:12 PM Nico Williams  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote:
> > Let me remind you again that disparate impact is not evidence of
> > racism and it is a fallacy (specifically, the residual fallacy [1]) to
> > claim otherwise. So, excluding disparate impact, where is this racism
> > and bias you speak of?
>
> The IETF's volunteer nature, with no gatekeepers, means that the IETF
> can neither be the cause of nor the solution to lack of diversity of any
> kind.  Though perhaps in order for the IETF to join our brave new
> age-of-the-hyper-ostrakon, we must have gatekeepers (who hopefully will
> only ever discriminate on the basis of approved criteria).
>

That is certainly not true. Particular since as with every other
international standards body working in the communications space, we have
to deal with a small number of very very well funded individuals who are
not actually individuals at all, they work for enterprises and in some
cases nation-state actors whose objectives are entirely malign.

Case in point was when IETF tried to deal with spam and of course some folk
paid by the spam kings showed up to act as wreckers.

Of course there are going to be nation state actors involved pursuing
covert agendas. It is naive to think otherwise.

Communication technology is never separate from politics. It is the very
essence.

Without gatekeepers, the field is open to those of malign purpose to bully
and disrupt.

--0000000000006639fe05bed9a016
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On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 2:12 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote:

> Let me remind you again that disparate impact is not evidence of

> racism and it is a fallacy (specifically, the residual fallacy [1]) to=


> claim otherwise. So, excluding disparate impact, where is this racism<=
br>
> and bias you speak of?



The IETF's volunteer nature, with no gatekeepers, means that the IETF
can neither be the cause of nor the solution to lack of diversity of any
kind.=C2=A0 Though perhaps in order for the IETF to join our brave new

age-of-the-hyper-ostrakon, we must have gatekeepers (who hopefully will

only ever discriminate on the basis of approved criteria).
=


=
That is certainly not true. Particular since as with every other internatio=
nal standards body working in the communications space, we have to deal wit=
h a small number of very very well funded individuals who are not actually =
individuals at all, they work for enterprises and in some cases nation-stat=
e actors whose objectives are entirely=C2=A0malign.

Case in point was when =
IETF tried to deal with spam and of course some folk paid by the spam kings=
 showed up to act as wreckers.

Of course there are going to be nation state actors involved pursuing=
 covert agendas. It is naive to think otherwise.

Communication technology is never separate from pol=
itics. It is the very essence.

Without gatekeepers, the field is open to those of malign =
purpose to bully and disrupt. 



--0000000000006639fe05bed9a016--


From nobody Wed Mar 31 12:15:09 2021
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From: Pete Resnick 
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I tried to reply mid-thread, but some people seem to have missed it:

Please move all discussion regarding the terminology documents or TERM 
charter over to the terminology@ietf.org list. Gendispatch has completed 
its work on this topic and continued discussion on this list is 
inappropriate.

Thanks.


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From: "Salz, Rich" 
To: Nico Williams , Dan Harkins 
CC: Mallory Knodel , "terminology@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] revised
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Cc: Dan Harkins , Mallory Knodel , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" 
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] revised
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On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 02:53:01PM -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 2:12 PM Nico Williams  wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:49:28AM -0700, Dan Harkins wrote:
> > > Let me remind you again that disparate impact is not evidence of
> > > racism and it is a fallacy (specifically, the residual fallacy [1]) to
> > > claim otherwise. So, excluding disparate impact, where is this racism
> > > and bias you speak of?
> >
> > The IETF's volunteer nature, with no gatekeepers, means that the IETF
> > can neither be the cause of nor the solution to lack of diversity of any
> > kind.  Though perhaps in order for the IETF to join our brave new
> > age-of-the-hyper-ostrakon, we must have gatekeepers (who hopefully will
> > only ever discriminate on the basis of approved criteria).
> 
> That is certainly not true. Particular since as with every other
> international standards body working in the communications space, we have
> to deal with a small number of very very well funded individuals who are
> not actually individuals at all, they work for enterprises and in some
> cases nation-state actors whose objectives are entirely malign.

They're still "volunteers" and _we_ don't yet gatekeep (at least we
don't keep anyone out proactively based on any criteria at all, but
reactively as a result of spam or harassment).  Maybe we should, but we
don't.  That part of my statement was not incorrect in the least.

> Case in point was when IETF tried to deal with spam and of course some folk
> paid by the spam kings showed up to act as wreckers.

We currently only have processes to exclude as a result of a
participant's actions (e.g., harassment).  I wouldn't call that
gatekeeping because we're not keeping people out proactively, only
reactively.  And I don't believe there's been a single allegation that
any exclusion has been motivated by racism, sexism, or any other -ism,
not even politics.

> Of course there are going to be nation state actors involved pursuing
> covert agendas. It is naive to think otherwise.

But this thread isn't about nation state actors pursuing covert (or
overt, for that matter) agendas.

> Without gatekeepers, the field is open to those of malign purpose to bully
> and disrupt.

Evidently we might need to discuss the meaning of "to gatekeep".  To me
it's mostly about keeping people out proactively, but I guess it means
more than that to others, so maybe I need to pick a better word.

Nico
-- 


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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" 
To: "'gendispatch@ietf.org'" 
Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] revised
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> The IETF's volunteer nature, with no gatekeepers, means that the IETF
> can neither be the cause of nor the solution to lack of diversity of any
> kind.  Though perhaps in order for the IETF to join our brave new
> age-of-the-hyper-ostrakon, we must have gatekeepers (who hopefully will
> only ever discriminate on the basis of approved criteria).

The IETF does have gatekeepers. It has Chairs and others who should inform =
people when they do not abide by the IETF Guidelines for Conduct [RFC 7154]=
 and also provides for people to be removed from lists who cannot behave ac=
cording to these guidelines.
Here is one of my favorite quotes from that BCP: "We dispute ideas by using=
 reasoned argument rather than through intimidation or personal attack."
For me, it's the fact that personal attacks are so frequently tolerated on =
IETF lists that keeps me from fully engaging.
I've noticed that people of certain backgrounds and experiences are more pu=
t off than others by witnessing and being subjected to personal attacks.
Therefore, tolerating personal attacks does lead to less diversity.
Barbara


From nobody Wed Mar 31 13:38:50 2021
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From: Nico Williams 
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On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 07:23:57PM +0000, STARK, BARBARA H wrote:
> > The IETF's volunteer nature, with no gatekeepers, means that the IETF
> > can neither be the cause of nor the solution to lack of diversity of any
> > kind.  Though perhaps in order for the IETF to join our brave new
> > age-of-the-hyper-ostrakon, we must have gatekeepers (who hopefully will
> > only ever discriminate on the basis of approved criteria).
> 
> The IETF does have gatekeepers. It has Chairs and others who should
> inform people when they do not abide by the IETF Guidelines for
> Conduct [RFC 7154] and also provides for people to be removed from
> lists who cannot behave according to these guidelines.

I don't call that gatekeeping.  We have bouncers, like bars and clubs,
to kick out people who misbehave, but we don't keep people out because
they're not attractive enough.  We can argue over what's a good term for
that function if you really think "gatekeeping" means something else,
but surely we all agree that the IETF does not vet new participants.

Nico
-- 


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : Advancing Inclusion Through Intersectionality
        Author          : Les White
	Filename        : draft-les-white-intersectional-dots-00.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2021-04-01

Abstract:
   Inclusion is a stated goal of the IETF but obtaining a just and
   equitable inclusive result that guarantees proportional
   representation from marginalized groups requires intersectionality.
   The use of badge dots are IETF can signify one's intersectionality
   status and be used to ensure more inclusion and further social
   justice.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-les-white-intersectional-dots/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-les-white-intersectional-dots-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-les-white-intersectional-dots-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/