From nobody Fri Jul 2 15:05:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FC93A090F; Fri, 2 Jul 2021 15:02:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.34.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <162526337746.26814.2982804415680983932@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 15:02:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 111 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2021 22:03:08 -0000 Dear Kirsty Paine, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. gendispatch Session 1 (2:00 requested) Wednesday, 28 July 2021, Session I 1200-1400 Room Name: Room 2 size: 502 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/sessions/gendispatch.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Kirsty Paine Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: People who must be present: Kirsty Paine Lars Eggert Pete Resnick Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Jul 4 11:26:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5CEF3A1301; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzoy2hayd17l; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 11:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E0E83A1300; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 11:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85C838B1A; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 14:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id BwBXfoQBIH52; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 14:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A831838B11; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 14:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B105319; Sun, 4 Jul 2021 14:26:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: iesg@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] resuming work on draft-kuehlewind-update-tag X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 18:26:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IESG, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/ was on the right track, and I find it increasingly useful to work with Amends, Extends and See Also. There was much discussion about additional or alternative terms to those three, and I had some opinions at the time. I am a bit agnostics as to the exact wording, as long as at least those three categorgies are represented. I want to suggest that the IESG ask the IAB (as the body ultimately responsible for RFC series oversight) to convene a small panel to make a recommendation on terms. Maybe a random sampling of 10 WG chairs for three half-hour meetings over the course of a month. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmDh/WcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX3bAf/atud3KT+WGOWGRTxHYG7HJwt1j0VLBmqTl5P1jGsoMiiKlSs7yAGZYCt xLZVjXV+o7Xskkix4gYrv9j/TlILtwhReGRxmyc/b4lwLTkT2kAEU/ND3uPP2UqY T5mPAQeC33V00fLAzAiDvoRE6BfMXbOsAHB3yJgD98Yn+Hg/ufQIvUKksOic4NE/ TrPkrPcCTBTQzwtVbSsA88dvhY/sw65eBksmBmj/ZjWVdinkWttHb/HevkSrXuuM gTqvu1cXQm8o+N7OJnqYMMZnn4aHApAsEGBsS/Z5s2JZZYDXtRIZoTh1IPI0PoM9 digSlvK3xvBsdCmWIw/VPXVZD0geBA== =lmK/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jul 8 11:11:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE5F3A11BE; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 11:11:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TUkvJfJ-ggvH; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 11:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64AD73A11BA; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 11:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee70cfa0021550dfbdc01e843.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e70c:fa00:2155:dfb:dc01:e843]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1m1YUW-0006nX-Lm; Thu, 08 Jul 2021 20:11:16 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <10273.1625423207@localhost> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 20:11:15 +0200 Cc: The IESG , GENDISPATCH List , Suresh Krishnan Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <10273.1625423207@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1625767880;edc33ede; X-HE-SMSGID: 1m1YUW-0006nX-Lm Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] resuming work on draft-kuehlewind-update-tag X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 18:11:25 -0000 Hi Michael, Thanks for your interest. This draft and the underlying problems was = actually recently discussed by the IESG and there is also interest by = the IESG in finding a solution. Suresh and I are still working on the draft (going through the published = RFCs to get some more data what =E2=80=9Cupdates=E2=80=9D has been used = for so far) and we are planning to submit an updated/revived version. I agree with you that I think having three distinct categories is more = important than the actually terms. The current proposal is based on a = group discussion we had at a retreat in 2019 = (https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-retreat-2019/). Not sure if it really is = needed to have another =E2=80=9Cpanel=E2=80=9D to find different = ones=E2=80=A6? I think what=E2=80=99s maybe more important is to get = more input on how we want to run this experiment (e.g. is =E2=80=9Cupdates= =E2=80=9D or just not recommended to use anymore and if so when). Of = corse any further input is more than welcome! Mirja > On 4. Jul 2021, at 20:26, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Dear IESG, >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/ >=20 > was on the right track, and I find it increasingly useful to work with > Amends, Extends and See Also. >=20 > There was much discussion about additional or alternative terms to = those > three, and I had some opinions at the time. I am a bit agnostics as = to the > exact wording, as long as at least those three categorgies are = represented. >=20 > I want to suggest that the IESG ask the IAB (as the body ultimately > responsible for RFC series oversight) to convene a small panel to make = a > recommendation on terms. Maybe a random sampling of 10 WG chairs for = three > half-hour meetings over the course of a month. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Thu Jul 8 12:03:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 970743A15B2; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 12:03:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lTTQo6X1J1WW; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 12:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD153A15A6; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 12:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40521389D9; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 15:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id pXb3DYkv1yOb; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 15:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB20F389CD; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 15:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3AF1DC; Thu, 8 Jul 2021 15:03:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Mirja Kuehlewind cc: The IESG , GENDISPATCH List , Suresh Krishnan In-Reply-To: References: <10273.1625423207@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] resuming work on draft-kuehlewind-update-tag X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2021 19:03:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I agree with you that I think having three distinct categories is more > important than the actually terms. The current proposal is based on a > group discussion we had at a retreat in 2019 > (https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-retreat-2019/). > Not sure if it really > is needed to have another =E2=80=9Cpanel=E2=80=9D to find different o= nes=E2=80=A6? You came up with three terms, and they weren't universally accepted. The purpose of engaging 10 WG chairs (not, IESG retreat members) to propose the terms is so that whatever terms we wind up with have wide community sup= port. =2D- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmDnS+oACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVi1wf+IZtwf7bS7//xAq5oZ0RZGuNBfeoTwUfWUowAJtfldFMDjqTp9qmIIx2J 7oj6Aqc+W+hWx6yTxBDYkxeuxDClRKReUA66fVihdDZzl4fRhVU3uVe9UYKPS9XT KuPleFfAIeZpHC2HivUE4EpdL8AQiX9t12os7gyb74xtzSAI4VNBX6eWKGpg1/R9 AOKsFabYj/YU2G1dIW4l8DS7JzP3NMqe7/DLpg4XrR/yh7REfW10uydJ0Vap/r4k 0fqwKLJWBXwFUSBkik/imsrzCTUFpw+qnx3IS/AuPhDsuWWandwfhBPrlKvHbijn D+mzElYOTi5EDC7ciEX0rKwv/J/MNA== =EXCx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 04:48:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DE73A0F46 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jso2kM5mWPF5 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B316A3A0FF0 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [85.131.57.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 97FB060034E; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:48:15 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626090495; bh=s8iQvInU3cdMwPm7FbJBjeYOVHnZ8iWEF2XU6BRq8/U=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=IIHp6YImLaAC/1KQLL/tblZ30zUVC6xxTnxict1qZbRB+osBeO5ec7F2h6UMpzRcb I+k7mjaT/UJS2m+qmUuujC11ZnLRtSpnZJIBURy0m8VKpt26jbCyNIOEJE4bQHApvf XMmwh6szJ1hTThaamamvu0cBNlsp89NrBqnqFi+k= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <0DE8932A-554E-4958-AED0-BD95D78B6726@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_83C34B41-9FB0-4862-8209-F7155E3AE503"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:48:14 +0300 In-Reply-To: <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Mark Nottingham References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> X-MailScanner-ID: 97FB060034E.A1831 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:48:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_83C34B41-9FB0-4862-8209-F7155E3AE503 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, coming back to this after my vacation - sorry for the silence. On 2021-6-25, at 10:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Looking at draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter again, I think there = are a few things we could pull out and discuss as potential additions, = without going as far as that draft suggests. For example: >=20 > - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not = have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it = is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. = Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on = ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official = announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. >=20 > - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a = discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people = push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they = think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. = I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed. I have no objection to these additions, especially if they come in the = form of PRs :-) I would like to see some indication from GENDISPATCH before merging = though, to make sure that there is some level of consensus for them. > I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the = time to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the = function of GENDISPATCH is (for example). It might be helpful to add an appendix with some concrete proposed = website changes to the document (to be removed on publication) that the = website team can then translate into tickets. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_83C34B41-9FB0-4862-8209-F7155E3AE503 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmDsK/8ACgkQVLXDCb9w wVd/gQ//UZ52o07kifqnde4iigCp1Yu/e4WyLvpIpPFNmYjQc07oioQKGYPP+q1m ZVL7nyobGqsjVBbtZ+6iisxU6qneKdwrFQTBZjqK2vyGFfAMsDoObFM8EoOPNVQa oYiXh2Nem6MVO97u/smy44FwF77PhNHPJpQSRsyddp/Cc9jr74az1NI54v3jy76M iPFov0IiwQ8pyJ0YLhc15vMdJluNSfx/QkJfx6wESSdTb7gDMdO9VX5ZYMh9tq1f SsoDMssK59K9VYv+sJQBDMZWSGkGRbdu+kz6aoqEQ6hSK6JCOA91a5wVnkPBD/CN C94CAKqAsO4/q7Eh3/B0HG6AKj+sHGRoBlfXEqEggqtyE5WJ1wkaGtvwsKC3+UqI frrDyO+LzshpLpIWcwIhJiG2DgN1Tvr1u+63ZU+/hHk50qo2LsKqqahyQ+64ZW8X HADedu3etrBq0n6XdM9ulnKsunBQFzXusIHaJcLu0+/2rwzQjOWKIhDr3Xv7MOkg jo47b3pijkFiUo+Rv+zOwY1PQx4VTB9TlefY1JagneuMKmp6dfjkltLSRZVEoHVa xK/eLD1BEL2HDmEhubP7pFyRxN/dNbjkugwrfyyaLBWyT7cT537aP0cFRxak3LYG vpxHfrdmjOKCVSJRAvpiSWsniZAw7Q+jV3Fo2L1Sk25lwBGl/7g= =LWrq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_83C34B41-9FB0-4862-8209-F7155E3AE503-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 04:55:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2473A1045; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wkQfhdsN3mF2; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF5B23A0593; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 04:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [85.131.57.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1C2D60034E; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:55:07 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626090907; bh=vnHSfpg2GJ04+GU6bJw2WsMMDHnEpaD+3UflwVMuQ+w=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=vn7TpdVNf9zVxNG/+aHzPNM4w962VQ+z5MC13/JtUaXKZVNEbE9GmwjrEens/uX0u RWOhbBdDpV6gdXz1jN9AdL2t5f8X85ELuzVFBUglENwwSPk59SOcszU9eQHui78jlJ CGv49sOdv0DuSLmS3tT21pK+S0A1ltQfHlw98YDg= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A027FF6E-ABFD-4A75-90A9-0950090B7E65"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:55:07 +0300 In-Reply-To: <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org, Greg Wood To: Brian E Carpenter References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: C1C2D60034E.A3A6F X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A027FF6E-ABFD-4A75-90A9-0950090B7E65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-6-26, at 0:05, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > On 25-Jun-21 19:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not = have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it = is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. = Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on = ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official = announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. >=20 > I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out = list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one = WG list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. = (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all = in the IETF can survive without the -announce list.) there is some orthogonal discussion about revising ietf-announce, mostly = by reducing the amount of automatically-generated email it gets (e.g., = publication announcements of new RFCs, announcements of WG interim = meetings, etc.) Once that is in place, I think it would be more reasonable to = automatically subscribe new (and existing?) participants to = ietf-announce. >> I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the = time to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the = function of GENDISPATCH is (for example). >=20 > The risk in overloading the newcomers info is that it becomes TL;DR. = So my answer is a definite maybe. I did notice that = https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/get-started/ doesn't have an = obvious pointer to ietf-announce, for example. Adding that is another = definite maybe. I'm CC'ing Greg as the point person for the website. Please feel free to = make concrete suggestions for website improvements to Greg and Jay? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_A027FF6E-ABFD-4A75-90A9-0950090B7E65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmDsLZsACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcEMA//RNLdpyTU49vszPEZ8zE0c1n9H+Mly+mjUIxWq949xnES9icOFMxVvzKX JaqHQ1pojAGvq1o5pyVNGNKLv5/+t8Vjq8BPFP/4HwJ7/dKV0AKJwdenoGpBjmsd xb5qJqrb4tmC/XX1IQ/MRI96YA3GajqXt0r9wA+UratLj5tjXvKxfeee0Jroy6UI B1hxaxtD8OMYqcl6xNYVGAdYjat7wboKTPfnMBU2lFVUmeh51aLzCuoJIcTk/thi A/XXYxZIuK31nj6Wv6fy+Y0kPk4bPRcmBVFvXXMNJhyoZi1+og43gfWn6PrbRjBz w3VhC0eJMQQpQatDpGlnFPvSZ9uloqoKWlL5XRAykd//Jabn4CzH2egDCqzG1cbj qgNkyke8SZ1JJQOrm62q0hI7rSq8HZtFm8HB1baF4pCUD5nsY+NqPD2EgnXGY4me eFbg+1EXltgRIeAVF8LpEFRwZCrZ6PXMYQ2mwQm4p/kCud6KRB5THkPuyGF6FDHb D0+OQWeOiOt75n9G6C4cJPSZNn2f5Zxg19UOITQDG6GAKLzuC/7if4KC6sJYhzDZ vMOGFFdbpsE53vzDAR59dsVWaJ80JRujHoiehTDRywKGcITH596wGkvRhYZeEFE+ LWLQAp0VeKxrFQ0MpntNnjhK4dEEfpN1LxIisyRFGreAwYpDitM= =iwzp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A027FF6E-ABFD-4A75-90A9-0950090B7E65-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 14:55:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A573A0FEA for ; 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Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:54:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <0DE8932A-554E-4958-AED0-BD95D78B6726@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <0DE8932A-554E-4958-AED0-BD95D78B6726@eggert.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:54:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000143b9805c6f42b3a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 21:55:06 -0000 --000000000000143b9805c6f42b3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 4:48 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > On 2021-6-25, at 10:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Looking at draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter again, I think there > are a few things we could pull out and discuss as potential additions, > without going as far as that draft suggests. For example: > > > > - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have > all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not > appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these > lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ > should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. > I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. > > > > - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move a > discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people > push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they > think the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. > I think it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed. > > I have no objection to these additions, especially if they come in the > form of PRs :-) > > I would like to see some indication from GENDISPATCH before merging > though, to make sure that there is some level of consensus for them. > Without having seen the concrete proposals, these two additions seem good to me in the abstract. thanks, Rob --000000000000143b9805c6f42b3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 4:48 AM Lars Egge= rt <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
On 2021-6-25, at 10:14, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> Looking at draft-nottingham-discussion-recharter again, I think there = are a few things we could pull out and discuss as potential additions, with= out going as far as that draft suggests. For example:
>
> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not ha= ve all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is n= ot appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these= lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should= be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it&= #39;s not just a 'preference'.
>
> - [ ] Clarifying language regarding when it's appropriate to move = a discussion to another, more specific/appropriate list. Sometimes, people = push back on this -- either because they want a larger audience, or they th= ink the ietf@ is more sympathetic to their cause, for whatever reason. I th= ink it would help if this scenario were specifically addressed.

I have no objection to these additions, especially if they come in the form= of PRs :-)

I would like to see some indication from GENDISPATCH before merging though,= to make sure that there is some level of consensus for them.

Without having seen the concrete proposals, these tw= o additions seem good to me in=C2=A0the abstract.

= thanks,
Rob
--000000000000143b9805c6f42b3a-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 14:57:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3F43A1050; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XCNeFcM9C3fU; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com (mail-pl1-x635.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C42E73A1059; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id n10so2815083plk.1; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:57:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AKk9m76dLVV4K1D8XdAlRgw9mNLvlO/eVD9pxzkq+nY=; b=HIYQDTZI2so9fP2E7j8ZM3iKwX97wWd1uuZN5KS8YhH3tJvDeXE5epNrllu3KhajuB KpPr8pj1y348/Rrs+vNyPOEjYiaQB/i4+PyKjMmPAMqGH/glHkKwbyVwuUXTQQElpeGL jpQY/VYVuPoCyorVdD0B+jxnFqtFCfg/wQ/60hxuFfUCcfeEQA6Hc7Cmj/gKMCeA9vmB 8KJo/7zWGegGJSS685XXyjCcDw+znUHjfnnnfsvkAR5bW4UiKIyZMJg1UcqlkpMFiXun pEM54WQZT+GAePCqsuPPU3AZsfPRzZ527ZLBCD9UwyQz0rPS/tlQ95ktHk7nLHf8HwZi n8yw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AKk9m76dLVV4K1D8XdAlRgw9mNLvlO/eVD9pxzkq+nY=; b=bguFJUZVLJZrCOdmTnDcDd1s9a17pi8ryxNe1IVVCNUvQ4NDvRP8H4Nj0o4p+ftHRx F6wuwJO5f6KV7c2ZWmj8aAplnibeD3YCmr9j8c9LGYexYeuQ/rh7/sq5ZtV329T6/I2Q qAkO7BN+8diyKVc+qoidrr61ILU1ecc9ggMfWap1cgqkcOb/htTSCWiihsxCDf//C1sf Hxc4UGBt5lIrxjpAxoKoNUvdD4q+J8VXOE0W4JGFcpWtu7gUK9L1K/IL01RF0qwDbAHz YyqeX3T2hhCIbDfRbL0nqNoxoEKPaK79edqTS2PLQXQMnXUIscWl9EcAo754wjlbZUmI ntEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tZrFrS+viVb/xnmstMSg16krCrhQLqeFgyDJUuQKKhqSNBNX7 Wf5Rcx8OpLsXJgGf1jIH+7Kvz6y77NQBXQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyg8FyLff2oE18GC/gCib+RgLKRifnEqHPIy6K1Rj+u78UlcxDnVNaa8hcA5c0LFvj63f0WIw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:590d:: with SMTP id k13mr1018637pji.56.1626127041629; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f6sm16306694pfj.28.2021.07.12.14.57.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:57:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Lars Eggert Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org, Greg Wood References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:57:16 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 21:57:34 -0000 On 12-Jul-21 23:55, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-6-26, at 0:05, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 25-Jun-21 19:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. >> >> I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IETF can survive without the -announce list.) > > there is some orthogonal discussion about revising ietf-announce, mostly by reducing the amount of automatically-generated email it gets (e.g., publication announcements of new RFCs, announcements of WG interim meetings, etc.) But... but... but those are things that *should* be public. Taking I-D announcements off the ietf-announce list was fine, but each new RFC is a milestone. Interims are public meetings, explicitly open to anybody, not just people who happen to be on the WG list. Truly, is the delete button so hard to find? (I've used my delete button a lot today, because I'm on i-d-announce. But it's only a problem 3 days a year, when people rush to beat the cutoff.) Brian > > Once that is in place, I think it would be more reasonable to automatically subscribe new (and existing?) participants to ietf-announce. > >>> I'd also hope that if we adjust this document, we'll also take the time to adjust the web site; right now, newcomers have no idea what the function of GENDISPATCH is (for example). >> >> The risk in overloading the newcomers info is that it becomes TL;DR. So my answer is a definite maybe. I did notice that https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/get-started/ doesn't have an obvious pointer to ietf-announce, for example. Adding that is another definite maybe. > > I'm CC'ing Greg as the point person for the website. Please feel free to make concrete suggestions for website improvements to Greg and Jay? > > Thanks, > Lars > From nobody Mon Jul 12 15:50:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339C53A1588 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AVYvghMtcDX for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16F5B3A156A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id d9so24699245ioo.2 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1om0Ux2jsp/09Hw2qz6gd+RvW3iUAUcKseoZvHUf0oI=; b=EAXg6g2o173pSpuaM+u8u/n6xN1aONBPloo/lPfL9zNo+UGK5e/urFb20ETsLwzSb+ iFPVpp0CcITipvo2U4KDvKRcoaPkloTRUg9iA5xxLH1j3Rc/F4t0omG5lrzzt0awp4Eo vHitBm0XoFXxsIhS9/XGbMDZL0Dt/pEP9KdwMtSctegSEX9rRgHnm//sJDh/nTsRW5cu JfE+2a4g21S1KA1T3AH6yrWls8B+buUjWQWnDd75rFzZnbMLeEsmPKfQk0K0WGDE3xNX RBusvq1xPT1OGlrpwABnephA19oeD7Tv62b4kwgeBfXF4k/zCaY2nFxQHD4SRfZx8pjp tcsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1om0Ux2jsp/09Hw2qz6gd+RvW3iUAUcKseoZvHUf0oI=; b=GjG8bZc32cOOtjS401SDupD9ZlRAWtmLovcxOlo/W6O/XyLXaip0wISiy5it8hrndQ tsmRrDvdx1cMQ8xxXF5C2k7OSoIeCVYRxjYQcOFg4ZbUvi9AxtxKBT7n0scMcj0+B2ya 8R0PcfrLArXvFmis4Vs/u3BrI/JSzN7cyLecLGKIuWop+D1v20wMtBhca0U2JQAgfN44 slet2FyikX6+nKF7q6HBQBJC4I+jTt2MswFVEOH3LucjptPS8tOqC87gAp+aHH6qrDWT FJciMq4ivOKG31t9y4360zzvvXTqTDMrm1oN8iGJ/yqs4tLI7TDxwewF8mY7mdmABbnr mjoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531oMEgwmHNNbK5/pfgnbmawwHb0bfivVQQTkNPT9eZJy5k9VOfB F+iltB41uDBh62pcgvvSRyRHRN4Mp/Cfi856t4jE6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz0eXXvwDxjrcsudQluPURUExckkCSmAtEtS649oqwWJvOFZhSKhkm16Mbw6W/NsUS9L2tQedj7pEx32Wje1fQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:24c3:: with SMTP id y3mr1144067jat.10.1626130249453; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:50:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 15:50:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Lars Eggert , Greg Wood , Mark Nottingham , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e0a6e705c6f4f341" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 22:50:55 -0000 --000000000000e0a6e705c6f4f341 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 2:58 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 12-Jul-21 23:55, Lars Eggert wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On 2021-6-26, at 0:05, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > >> On 25-Jun-21 19:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >>> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list does not > have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so it is > not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Along > these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce@ > should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. > I.e., it's not just a 'preference'. > >> > >> I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out > list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG > list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. > (Personally, I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in > the IETF can survive without the -announce list.) > > > > there is some orthogonal discussion about revising ietf-announce, mostly > by reducing the amount of automatically-generated email it gets (e.g., > publication announcements of new RFCs, announcements of WG interim > meetings, etc.) > > But... but... but those are things that *should* be public. Taking I-D > announcements off the ietf-announce list was fine, but each new RFC is a > milestone. Interims are public meetings, explicitly open to anybody, not > just people who happen to be on the WG list. > > Truly, is the delete button so hard to find? > > (I've used my delete button a lot today, because I'm on i-d-announce. But > it's only a problem 3 days a year, when people rush to beat the cutoff.) I certainly have sympathy for "ietf-announce" is too noisy, but I also recognize that not everyone has the same preferences. With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the automatic notification system to allow people to customize which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, which could even be called ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] -Ekr [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every announcement. --000000000000e0a6e705c6f4f341 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 2:58 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12-Jul-21 23:55, Lars Eggert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 2021-6-26, at 0:05, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>= wrote:
>> On 25-Jun-21 19:14, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>>> - [ ] Reminding readers (including the IESG) that the list doe= s not have all (or even a majority of) IETF participants subscribed, and so= it is not appropriate to consider it as reaching the entire community. Alo= ng these lines, the current text about announcements being on ietf-announce= @ should be strengthened, at least in the case of official announcements. I= .e., it's not just a 'preference'.
>>
>> I find myself wondering whether ietf-announce should be an opt-out= list. In other words, people who sign up for a meeting or at least one WG = list should be subscribed to ietf-announce unless they decline. (Personally= , I still don't understand how anyone who participates at all in the IE= TF can survive without the -announce list.)
>
> there is some orthogonal discussion about revising ietf-announce, most= ly by reducing the amount of automatically-generated email it gets (e.g., p= ublication announcements of new RFCs, announcements of WG interim meetings,= etc.)

But... but... but those are things that *should* be public. Taking I-D anno= uncements off the ietf-announce list was fine, but each new RFC is a milest= one. Interims are public meetings, explicitly open to anybody, not just peo= ple who happen to be on the WG list.

Truly, is the delete button so hard to find?

(I've used my delete button a lot today, because I'm on i-d-announc= e. But it's only a problem 3 days a year, when people rush to beat the = cutoff.)

I certainly have sympathy for &quo= t;ietf-announce" is too noisy, but I also recognize that not everyone = has the same preferences.

With that said, there&#= 39;s no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing = list paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the nu= mber of people who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don'= t really need to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would su= ggest is that we modify the automatic notification system to allow people t= o customize which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo a= ppear to go to the same list, which could even be called ietf-announce if w= e want). That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just= the subset they care about. [0]

-Ekr

[0] We can of course still build an archive that has every= announcement.
--000000000000e0a6e705c6f4f341-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 16:20:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1373A17F1; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=klsCDdkT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=uPh8OLOT Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zAEUJLtgL3rE; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68ABB3A17EB; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 16:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630415C01D1; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:20:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=D L1Nei7nCHzTMHjd53XF1s2GAlq7wsBFPVRfjZK/UwY=; b=klsCDdkTWOs6Cs6iC JyAmGocIEndzsAaCLpHtI01ScZdtzMZizfW0+vHH5AHwJOvu9PEWcNV/bsa3obQS pfQQPKZJaaEWnREHVCLCTmOgZj98sTSmCRq2mP9qrpHXPC6RBwzn1OmOCzTmcKh6 Qia62pDmtPrkff9bPcrnd4tIQDIt+Y/sfip/CjPBFi/4PD2Zy9roNikLxhbwFnCp 7uA7U/MBTlDsAvLbMpfHP07L5LZsDYU5Fr3RK3vclgKGmBJmobAE7rS+F0OzoBz6 8qrzTQy5hQP/0m3K3GXcd1+Lv2y6KNdbGfgZuQnXSRZEOvwYssDs3TobNpmqEVl/ QYM8A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=DL1Nei7nCHzTMHjd53XF1s2GAlq7wsBFPVRfjZK/U wY=; b=uPh8OLOTtDUt6JS2QWxZ9Rz7xMtPF7GBSXnCCg1tVL2sGwuHOGjmvb0eJ KglwPlNJvOOmi2TqQ9uDZmqG3huRz/1PD80oyFXCKwA+FHEAiDvtzLthmWi67iel x87aWkX9fOVhEAd6J7V8Rwo0OO4AAeM886VFmHKGMhbEvsZxx/wkqFmbs99wzhRm FHJ1KCB6loz11TnpUw824yv0zZGHyE57CTwR7vgXZXLx1A0ebOIpEOGieIKFj/TX cZg1rPGeQ89NSSgjXD1Dmk6Nk4jP7Pt9KdQrUEAyfF7dswjCwRg08Ex6cszSRJbr Ty6RfQguV0g3tcXP4saCa50qJjfHQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeggddtlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepkefgvdetvdfhfeffudefueehjedugeekieduhedtvddvgfdtleeutdeuvdekjeej necuffhomhgrihhnpehnhihtihhmvghsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohht rdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 09:20:40 +1000 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , Greg Wood Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 23:20:53 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2021, at 8:50 am, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >> Truly, is the delete button so hard to find? >>=20 >> (I've used my delete button a lot today, because I'm on i-d-announce. = But it's only a problem 3 days a year, when people rush to beat the = cutoff.) Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html > I certainly have sympathy for "ietf-announce" is too noisy, but I also = recognize that not everyone has the same preferences. >=20 > With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the = "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic = notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people who send mail to = ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a = simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the = automatic notification system to allow people to customize which = notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to = the same list, which could even be called ietf-announce if we want). = That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the = subset they care about. [0] That's a good idea. If we had such a system, we could also use it to = produce things like RSS feeds, Slack channels, etc. so that people can = choose how to consume the information. 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boundary="esEiUijTIIwQ9TWe6hxf2jLQKOFIKtScF"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mark Nottingham , Eric Rescorla Cc: Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , Greg Wood Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --esEiUijTIIwQ9TWe6hxf2jLQKOFIKtScF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A4FF0F5150A96EC61E98E0E4" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A4FF0F5150A96EC61E98E0E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 13/07/2021 00:20, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service: > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html I read that. It seemed to me to entirely ignore timezone issues and others related to non-local collaboration. If there're a non-email tools that do that well, it'd be good to know. 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ABdhPJyZFMlHzgUn2DzY/HRU4bChbA2Eqkj6XP3U9lJR4aas+DRg9WHvEJZBmdAhv7W2cmNOk96aLJYQ1TOp+eWAQoA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:ab6e:: with SMTP id u101mr2027342ybi.522.1626134565914; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 17:02:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 20:02:33 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Eric Rescorla , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , Greg Wood Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000288b0005c6f5f5d6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:02:52 -0000 --000000000000288b0005c6f5f5d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:21 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service: > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html Every single time someone suggests there is a user demand for something better than SMTP email from the 1980s that hasn't changed since MIME, they are aggressively patronized and told that there is absolutely no way that the legacy system can ever, ever be replaced. Perhaps it is time for more than a few of us to revise that particular article of faith. Maybe the even younger generation is going to reject SMTP the same way the then younger generation abandoned IRC for AOL instant messenger in the 1990s. --000000000000288b0005c6f5f5d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:21 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service:
=C2=A0 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/1= 0/business/gen-z-email.html

Every single time someone sugg= ests there is a user demand for something better than SMTP email from the 1= 980s that hasn't changed since MIME, they are aggressively patronized a= nd told that there is absolutely no way that the legacy system can ever, ev= er be replaced.

Perhaps i= t is time for more than a few of us to revise that particular article of fa= ith. Maybe the even younger generation is going to reject SMTP the same way= the then younger generation abandoned IRC for AOL instant messenger in the= 1990s.

=C2=A0
--000000000000288b0005c6f5f5d6-- From nobody Mon Jul 12 19:43:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60B13A0C51; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X7TwaVUL0RFz; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2BC53A0C4E; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id b8-20020a17090a4888b02901725eedd346so1174350pjh.4; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:43:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=22ELDurkWlYWxqdAPai3xP2/mx4UhvHPxUwWugJOVQs=; b=ltZ36Hj6x2qmnMk7o5nFVuI+YiBRVdr2guhyUD9zP7g34ai9c6iUmLplsFgAs+muFd t6/Pcl9vFjnbHcwsa01k/DCBCGOmY8xcDCRjwAoDk892IWMDHkOiakuknl4IXPkhHa54 x7LzlhPe+vuMJFR/snwXxnCx8MbwjDRyRZTcG3kKqP5Up4XuTcm78eI+oWWRJKjAmOcW srrHv//FE7xmqTz/iAbHViW4t6Kh/SrxZpQpYPq6fDLjzpYQ8qte6jR/yFyzBMnxjDF2 IRvD3QQOFFKwZqb/SieGSwwFeTlcH44K388wIZ0N8o6zCcgAGWVKIKO5Z0zBSigZjoRj 4AmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=22ELDurkWlYWxqdAPai3xP2/mx4UhvHPxUwWugJOVQs=; b=ilhNc/4GJB5kH4dZ8z2KiWs7FjOnBXPhmaWdmN9dPCj2LWwlu2pDkTozm0IbcalTZa 8O8AdKKNp2LR76PtomEJbnJ+eRs21nsnjWN5ELV7GRdwZW8zynj2q+JQeYHMmDkSWtgi 0lUk36bn8THNOsF5tFMT7InqT7HaGM9RiJ24jR3HZZoiCt7yXMp1g0nikPW0QinWO+H9 Wd4zCLScD1KLNzU++SgLgT5PXRgJGRnxltC53wOZEZh6LJV2dI9bVvgv9DE9qvHsMpbW K5V1sf2Sj9Xo+/fG9FLQtMuhXsgO3h+i/VYMr2VNvHCh19pUpXHwpTXKzNKNkJnR+Vim AknQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KoIxqQw00Lm7MGiR5EFK1S2hDGxnrcEvp/zaPgnB8OL9BRngm 1uEskWzeC4iUM1Y0G6p8hn/kI8zFA5MOrQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw2f02PbMs2MSWJP9CpY0UYLDcqZ3b6TjSYo9PevgNsLRUu6f6DTb5hPH2P3NsimZdzqk1WYg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:230b:b029:12a:d8db:cd27 with SMTP id d11-20020a170903230bb029012ad8dbcd27mr1644886plh.42.1626144180613; Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a4sm17665309pfd.110.2021.07.12.19.42.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 Jul 2021 19:42:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Nottingham , Eric Rescorla Cc: Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , Greg Wood References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:42:55 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 02:43:07 -0000 On 13-Jul-21 11:20, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > >> On 13 Jul 2021, at 8:50 am, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> Truly, is the delete button so hard to find? >>> >>> (I've used my delete button a lot today, because I'm on i-d-announce. But it's only a problem 3 days a year, when people rush to beat the cutoff.) > > Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service: > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html > > >> I certainly have sympathy for "ietf-announce" is too noisy, but I also recognize that not everyone has the same preferences. >> >> With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the automatic notification system to allow people to customize which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, which could even be called ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] > > That's a good idea. If we had such a system, we could also use it to produce things like RSS feeds, Slack channels, etc. so that people can choose how to consume the information. I agree. In other words, treat the distro lists as a back end, and if people prefer some kind of issue tracker tool, or RSS, or whatever, treat them as alternative back ends. Brian From nobody Tue Jul 13 00:38:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBEB3A1BAD for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktJEEpstTjbR for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A0343A1B17 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [85.131.57.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1E1A60034E; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 10:38:31 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626161911; bh=dcT0bOlOnWOWtLbQGHLcxm0AXpdCCmMAaNkkdmyDAQM=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=SiJP65hVJh2+4fVZ+Nc8pYby2INWtp1D9nTlng/+FLl5o7sxz94M9Gd7jOB3hwp7C ju5D8qYpmrRhzfHKNemmXCQZcVXwlSz4SV2o/JS/0cwqXefTxjazlidVBjJ6HrxqRE FHtWFJqE1dA0lSU1SIr81opl2hwdEWPlJJaAvOIk= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <1D2B9236-3237-4C7A-904E-2439625E7F5A@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D9740E8-24C6-48DC-848B-A9627DC1C1F4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 10:38:30 +0300 In-Reply-To: <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> Cc: Mark Nottingham , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: B1E1A60034E.A279D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 07:38:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9D9740E8-24C6-48DC-848B-A9627DC1C1F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-7-13, at 0:57, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > On 12-Jul-21 23:55, Lars Eggert wrote: >> there is some orthogonal discussion about revising ietf-announce, = mostly by reducing the amount of automatically-generated email it gets = (e.g., publication announcements of new RFCs, announcements of WG = interim meetings, etc.) >=20 > But... but... but those are things that *should* be public. and they will remain public. But we've seen feedback that one reason = people don't subscribe or stay subscribed to ietf-announce is the bulk = of such automated announcements they feel is not relevant to them. > Taking I-D announcements off the ietf-announce list was fine, but each = new RFC is a milestone. Yes, but the population that is interested in being notified of every = single RFC published is probably vanishingly small. And WG participants = already receive them via the respective WG list, plus there is the = dedicated https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist mailing = list. > Interims are public meetings, explicitly open to anybody, not just = people who happen to be on the WG list. Of course. But so are regular WG meetings, and they don't get announced = on ietf-announce individually, either. And interims are again already = sent to the respective WG lists. They are also publicly announced at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming and the related calendar = file. If people prefer an email channel, a separate mailing list may be = better than CC'ing ietf-announce? > Truly, is the delete button so hard to find? >=20 > (I've used my delete button a lot today, because I'm on i-d-announce. = But it's only a problem 3 days a year, when people rush to beat the = cutoff.) It may be a matter of work style. People have become used to more = tailored notifications, and expect ietf-announce as a general = announcement channel to only have the items that are of the broadest = community interest. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_9D9740E8-24C6-48DC-848B-A9627DC1C1F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmDtQvYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVe09A/9E9X1Km/oiUSEP2RSL+sYS2PExYQbmX2KyPMdeREcFZT8XCfEvJE8iCnV f0/EgsXZeoZh/A/Oc8Mng9BoD8+lWc6h1cMv4L2qvNpHfVu13iWttYj2zxrnc/+c qNHcDT3JrTGQ+/b8UwukQFo2bJ6125Rus5mssucNrpxMzTrNfZNXViCBWnIIMw8J 5DtfMERfYX4eS5wmK9gWlxcg/ov5TkU+JJXSb3TNyKyJc15fqUXMPGAcPHIPSWBv htecrZvq2Sb5SLPK83/LG3a6Z+mzzHIAjSGG5EPznqFh2JK6QbHJ+8wBJf2Fzh1I PGwqty11qC73EHYrVmOPNpt2VlbfO2feC8VulvgH2UyjPTSvJHDax0zu6M2FTZqP wuCXQLletCx1c1i9Mw0Uj9S/XvDu1IqaUiXErtK5z6cGifwjlbqPfb2FY+VMu8h/ o91tReqI3buSltRYxN8IsAygcKC54l3Ma3I6ZfUBhmtmpSXRcYnregCbV+po58Jt UNwP0Rn8Jr1r1p4/UI4qgfxZPckhNKEa9cxgT9ko+vFx4p1LLQjfMVTrQhVMCR0h l8EYcBI85AMsGfubQ4f++CpePUIqVZB/BiIdu8+iPDWCOqkJqrxgFRKeS/LERR3Y chTD/fFcKtMD0E9XG1ui1fWOcT5AqfE97FFV19nkFjkn0liDqAc= =jjrE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9D9740E8-24C6-48DC-848B-A9627DC1C1F4-- From nobody Tue Jul 13 00:42:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400013A1BC5 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AAmjEfQZWsBA for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 422EA3A1BC8 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 00:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [85.131.57.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 45D2F60034E; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 10:42:02 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626162122; bh=TYVKW6b3oRVzIzLYWbXZdBTvFQlMqgF5Hk8U7DxXF+U=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=QIc66zCDFc/ElMxHITqEVvyMZ9uMTWX7OcqIU4rSrnvSJiJ89IpiQ+mK0nt4aCgci yaIkXhfkS6LLnNEL9ld9pXAV0SfAnYSJye3Q/3I+lPrLjRt8Q8PXpQr1ys+4uJF6Uc BmUxQc1tGabVoY6vRDFcDcvky0sdgCqjIQJSVXOI= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_665E1AC1-459D-4159-BCCA-729F4F191751"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 10:42:01 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Mark Nottingham , GENDISPATCH List To: Eric Rescorla References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 45D2F60034E.A063D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 07:42:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_665E1AC1-459D-4159-BCCA-729F4F191751 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: > With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the = "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic = notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people who send mail to = ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a = simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the = automatic notification system to allow people to customize which = notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to = the same list, which could even be called ietf-announce if we want). = That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the = subset they care about. [0] >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every = announcement. I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker = code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged? (This part of the discussion should also probably move to tools-discus.) Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_665E1AC1-459D-4159-BCCA-729F4F191751 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmDtQ8kACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeX9hAAqUqVl86lq1KcG/wzifml2IkoGULcl0kfHq4ocgkEMw7fW4G00GHziD2F Tda/Va9CIwkSn3UMs3wn6o7T/0xFTbcEfGZuADVCzEYHFmEvo+lXSz+zwNU+gz/4 7X+EUEjxsOgHMYst+fad+7UiQDXQsp4rX1mM+Y5kqzNa7IPycygJeu8RsVtH0CpK UIWZDd7t1ldFWuyS7ptjGzJDJasZGtx9nFkhI+IFn4+mijPv1oXUGL+NP4069t74 A7n7ItGXj9M5nYxfllnOZ53gG5apnKWCrrWyV5AJektIFe3DfjGJo/tXpIyGQiSI h6HIw6JCOy+ILNdB3UVNDr7icX97Mpi6xQP3oyKeOLMsHLCDjm7WYO3k3Tw+wti+ 4SVgchJ3j4Q+wjSdI7QVVnkPP91lNJ//8Wm166sCPV4vGdlJ/GUiq+IPn1K8s9e4 +xphI/hUsZaREPHMwlZDURDgvn1Flw9wjQrB0PsKjKS1EoxEyn/MPhxZSvs8ni1v efjg18tvaJ3JsUlpudoVcdcOELWbH0BWdyPOheiKlgzwOQg/CjGhZGr7yTbGUm6/ f3oj9dz65NRahjmNQPsVNb48wME/iDvRA8wqi1XmW8TR0wrjUzlVW+1aoRc2kDaZ f6Z37CZlRolQTHm0pIVsAJVpPuBIs5op0+sg1cNxf63+Gx+T1Q0= =Xzdj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_665E1AC1-459D-4159-BCCA-729F4F191751-- From nobody Tue Jul 13 05:51:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889053A09E0 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 05:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qggu17veePHP for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 05:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 465FD3A09B5 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 05:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 16DCpBP2058218; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 05:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ietf@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from ietf@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 16DCp9q6058217; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 05:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ietf) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202107131251.16DCp9q6058217@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: To: Lars Eggert Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 05:51:09 -0700 (PDT) CC: Eric Rescorla , Mark Nottingham , GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 12:51:27 -0000 > Hi, > > On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the automatic notification system to allow people to customize which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, which could even be called ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] > > > > -Ekr > > > > [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every announcement. > > I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged? > > (This part of the discussion should also probably move to tools-discus.) > > Thanks, > Lars > > Lars, etc all, Isnt a majority of the issue on the one-size-fits-all front simply the fact that several "sources" of email are aggregated onto the -announce list, and the simple solution of creating a seperate list per source would be in order, ie: ietf-announce-I-D-new ONLY the announcements of new ID's ietf-announce-I-D-update ONLY the announcement of updated ID's ietf-announce-general Human created announcements ... ietf-announce == All of the above Thus a person could choose which ones they want to see, all the current infustructures remains the same, sans 1 usually rather simple to implement "forward" from each de-aggregated list to the aggregated list. Thoughs on this solution? Regards, -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Tue Jul 13 06:02:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300783A0C7E for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 06:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XsWFoNdzg-I2 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 06:02:11 -0700 (PDT) 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c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=d661.60edf426.k2107; bh=rQeabR0Ap+shJTgrEtPgJVVRVAyNtvTXFjjCenP5258=; b=hCSKMbavGjxiV8hXhrqKOyQGe7l6DSEFyuGhgCjvgfSfdv5jo8+dsETNI1m0B6qU5FptoctGkIDvT5pPppVwUqxnNPil+ysZTCXV3h8jcBiCtdfiaExwRYvSlMZXELoB5cmQcqUWqVyLRKZszID+Y7G00BI1sdEEatGO86GkO1ivBacmoLl2BaHPXNOG0Wsz5p20xB9YTplrvfG2XwM/upo8fcuUYX/OGGKmWZBwdZ24nlt+uH/CLYm4mw+Nb6ujAd2hXFajzrVsIZh+Up/WwSimzNXAyNV8QawE4jxn+4rZDIMEybzZDXyprdEvPDwwU/mzcWs4q22YlfHwkOlHDw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 13 Jul 2021 20:14:30 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5881D2150B1F; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 16:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: 13 Jul 2021 16:14:29 -0400 Message-Id: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: lars@eggert.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 20:14:49 -0000 It appears that Lars Eggert said: >On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people >who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the automatic >notification system to allow people to customize which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, which could even be called >ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] >> >> -Ekr >> >> [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every announcement. > >I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged? > >(This part of the discussion should also probably move to tools-discus.) You really, REALLY, do not want to try to reinvent a bulk mail system. GNU Mailman has a little-used "topics" feature that I think can do the trick here. The list manager configures a set of topic regexps for the list, and subscribers can say which topics they want. In each message the topic(s) appear in the Subject or Keywords line and it sends the message to the people subscribed to the topics. If you don't pick any topics, by default you get all of them. See https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node29.html The interface within mailman to set the topics is pretty grody, but I presume it just puts stuff in the underlying database so we could invent our own interface to it without extreme pain. R's, John PS: Some of us don't subscribe to any IETF lists but instead retrieve the messages from the IMAP server, but I think we can fend for ourselves. From nobody Tue Jul 13 14:44:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A76F3A12C9; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:43:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7YOuaTMfDqv; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com (mail-yb1-f173.google.com [209.85.219.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78B043A12C5; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id b13so37295775ybk.4; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:43:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9E8iNGg+qNJagN4jJojSvyQfLYPNBpgqU2Ka3ZqmE5Q=; b=QPi1hvHzRZ4tsmkVXMccEDNBw+QJNWhcVbWpwKXZrR7Z/8qq0AAbMozlM6drXW/4Bg oATgxGKMl3lZU40Gu5JYU7TRXeFNvS3ShC3koonmXw6j8hPOB680Wc3jARR6eBFOLXvk AHj77QEJ96jw5czlEdyqY+4v91heVK12+v6ZYa0+ljPL6ctsi79QEaDacYMLL7J3i8aS JnCJckAw+imXS0dPVlt9biB0Ju/WpR9cZRIvrFaUm8RkBm7ZwijFAfnU5wGAcaMtsIsn //vhyxRVhMxtHMsKRqhT1d3PgHjLipja3V9+27mMmXwhAWZyQp6SSTazSDsvEIlrC70T mSMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qq/688K30ctU7m92za3CQZ3C67eCyHYQhSO0PkEgDO+gAW+vz zJ3fo2TqXodc9nLUzkEUXeBaLZm+7K64+56QErs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyljTd4L2P9oXRMsT+EXiBXx6MZWhihJqnSVjxkOAv4r5vlbJN1JHYyvp47JLs6insheiL6yDBHqN7IImUPB5o= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2d57:: with SMTP id s23mr8796580ybe.302.1626212627351; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:43:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:43:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: John Levine Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Tools Discussion , Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb8ef305c70821a7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:43:59 -0000 --000000000000fb8ef305c70821a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The reason to not reinvent a bulk mail system is simple: It is a terrible idea that has always sucked. The Achilles heel of SMTP is that it is a push mode system. NNTP was better because messages were pulled. An NNTP based discussion scheme would be a much more effective way to manage 'mailing list' traffic because it is a pull mode scheme. The big mismatch between functionality and features here is that we are trying to use SMTP as a workflow system which it is not what it is designed to do. A better solution would be an append only log of events such as ID publication, RFC publication, interims, etc. that might trigger actions for specific users and client software capable of processing those events on the user's behalf according to rules specified by the user. Sign the logs as a Merkle Tree and we have authenticated events and can do more interesting stuff. Of course, this is yet another of those 'things we could actually do with crock-chain' which the crock-chain world completely ignores. On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 4:14 PM John Levine wrote: > It appears that Lars Eggert said: > >On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the > "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic > notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people > >who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to > have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we > modify the automatic > >notification system to allow people to customize which notifications they > want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, which > could even be called > >ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the > server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every announcement. > > > >I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker > code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged? > > > >(This part of the discussion should also probably move to tools-discus.) > > You really, REALLY, do not want to try to reinvent a bulk mail system. > > GNU Mailman has a little-used "topics" feature that I think can do the > trick here. The list manager configures > a set of topic regexps for the list, and subscribers can say which topics > they want. In each message the topic(s) > appear in the Subject or Keywords line and it sends the message to the > people subscribed to the topics. If you don't > pick any topics, by default you get all of them. > > See https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node29.html > > The interface within mailman to set the topics is pretty grody, but I > presume it just puts stuff in the underlying > database so we could invent our own interface to it without extreme pain. > > R's, > John > > PS: Some of us don't subscribe to any IETF lists but instead retrieve the > messages from the IMAP server, but I think we > can fend for ourselves. > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000fb8ef305c70821a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The= reason to not reinvent a bulk mail system is simple: It is a terrible idea= that has always sucked.

= The Achilles heel of SMTP is that it is a push mode system. NNTP was better= because messages were pulled. An NNTP based discussion scheme would be a m= uch more effective way to manage 'mailing list' traffic because it = is a pull mode scheme.=C2=A0

The big mismatch between functionality and features here is that we are= trying to use SMTP as a workflow system which it is not what it is designe= d to do.=C2=A0
=

=
A better solution wo= uld be an append only log of events such as ID publication, RFC publication= , interims, etc. that might trigger actions for specific users and client= =C2=A0software capable of processing those events on the user's behalf = according to rules specified by the user.

Sign the logs as a Merkle Tree and we have authenticated e= vents and can do more interesting stuff.


Of course, this is yet another of those 'things we could actually= do with crock-chain' which the crock-chain world completely ignores.





On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 4:14 PM John= Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrot= e:
It appears th= at Lars Eggert=C2=A0 <lars@eggert.org> said:
>On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>> With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the "= one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic no= tification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people
>who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really ne= ed to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is th= at we modify the automatic
>notification system to allow people to customize which notifications th= ey want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, whic= h could even be called
>ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the se= rver side and get just the subset they care about. [0]
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>> [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every announc= ement.
>
>I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker c= ode, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged?
>
>(This part of the discussion should also probably move to tools-discus.= )

You really, REALLY, do not want to try to reinvent a bulk mail system.

GNU Mailman has a little-used "topics" feature that I think can d= o the trick here.=C2=A0 The list manager configures
a set of topic regexps for the list, and subscribers can say which topics t= hey want.=C2=A0 In each message the topic(s)
appear in the Subject or Keywords line and it sends the message to the peop= le subscribed to the topics.=C2=A0 If you don't
pick any topics, by default you get all of them.

See https://www.gnu.org/software/mail= man/mailman-member/node29.html

The interface within mailman to set the topics is pretty grody, but I presu= me it just puts stuff in the underlying
database so we could invent our own interface to it without extreme pain.
R's,
John

PS: Some of us don't subscribe to any IETF lists but instead retrieve t= he messages from the IMAP server, but I think we
can fend for ourselves.

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000fb8ef305c70821a7-- From nobody Tue Jul 13 14:52:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C618B3A13A3 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:52:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=MCFt3yG/; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=KwlAvJVQ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iZqUstwzl-GQ for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4781F3A13A6 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77957 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2021 21:52:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=13083.60ee0b15.k2107; bh=9U0hd1/a+/TNk7AfbDfz/ueeHgKGhpA6qUiFIor0wUY=; b=MCFt3yG/KLZQxNjO6qyPF0n+CW/SSN/ul/mxAEuyhGuXYcu+DlBxRX/79tOl6bDOuF1KSi38cZP+2gCXj4hjw1vT57aigtoc9ql4uFGDPLzIF+v48ik/q+pfS3ngwsGdCaplMydIRNHO4mGT3PCwPiWLJKeqxyZt29aw967lAlaaco37tziNZcad0tHzpJT7aRe99Oc0kGTk3AQy5KGrtB+Pom290WpES7z7LK9L0q4XCwjNB+eMLtCx+uxTbo5yw24RI/i9mTROzkNKZ8N64rZSF3rVeQchPECj0ydv/vSwKoEFHhbIU2ZlIEE3cbG4MSh/WPX8z2sA6Wj5iA8gDA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=13083.60ee0b15.k2107; bh=9U0hd1/a+/TNk7AfbDfz/ueeHgKGhpA6qUiFIor0wUY=; b=KwlAvJVQyU4o+Xi+szSETFCkgfM3xv8qaiqcK7pzZb2Z25i23e4EgXvP6GuHo/6Jv7uKnrX8I4TOxTFEdC4QsOTSo/98h5TPq77srDImg/0m5HCOPzDlhnyKcBa00ZsrzxuRpn5cIjXejPWhHp3xBnbDSdCRRtj7hSzCiNDNoUrqpBICW/JvRb2GjoAHUNOhH7Sc+nzRJ8uQmuL/agmayjs5B4VN0KaGWUmVT+pxPDZqrlZXbXA9sDMJn7ZDvhx8r/NaFWqSDfcJqzysmLGBfnIgCzVm1m4BXLCbuuNLLSppG1aZZAEANwjcY4PmGCW217k5d0R0ShVBRFbmwAHw5g== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 13 Jul 2021 21:52:21 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B00FC215FFB3; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F077215FF8C; Tue, 13 Jul 2021 17:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: 13 Jul 2021 17:52:19 -0400 Message-ID: <4f6398-4efe-d1be-7cf-d0bce8a3a62c@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Phillip Hallam-Baker" Cc: "GENDISPATCH List" , "Tools Discussion" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:52:31 -0000 > The Achilles heel of SMTP is that it is a push mode system. NNTP was better > because messages were pulled. An NNTP based discussion scheme would be a > much more effective way to manage 'mailing list' traffic because it is a > pull mode scheme. That's why I have an IMAP->NNTP gateway and read all the lists from my news server. The threading and killfiles are nice, too. But as you know, I am strange. > Sign the logs as a Merkle Tree and we have authenticated events and can do > more interesting stuff. Unfortunately, decades of experience tell us that the reason we all still use e-mail is that it *is* a push system, the stuff shows up automatically, and we all still check our e-mail. If we have to check some whizzo other thing, we won't, and it will fail. The news hack works for me because I put every mailing list I read from everywhere into it, so it's only one place to look. R's, John >> GNU Mailman has a little-used "topics" feature that I think can do the trick here. From nobody Fri Jul 16 13:53:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A9E3A08DB for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T33-bF8q6uOd for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17F453A08CE for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A703200913 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:53:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=9GOSZh LvZicdmSxplPpDFOVAb61jleo5sY23QiHqbco=; b=YViUUoN69fwJ5TXyFN82pI HdrPVDq5sNqaVh344+A+ZAuUDIcnZWrgp9FFI77oDIChHr7sUuvpA+q0DMeI+9OG adHGJdiNtNLqnb2Q4vePSC28GWlZ1N6Fkv2Q3ZPGPQSD/fWCUQZI7Da9EeV7l7Yj hhRh+0+pak0v8krAHmR+zGeahTwEtsavGAaBsuxn89mDa+jt6ms+wXXue4OUdqs2 imQpuDUvKuEbxZqngzw083hxgAgnXI92t2DX/7AI8rDbmXdzYPMCB+Wt0YDfunf6 P6gTl9MAfl76wLl3N0ffoJpnDUwr1lAyv93Ye5DixcuOTbXOzwLFXvvSRRtihcTw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdefgdduvdelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffekuddtgefhve eluedttddtfeeukeetgfffveevgeetvdelkeefhfffjeeuveelnecuffhomhgrihhnpehn hihtihhmvghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:53:09 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3a9576e0-d485-6d26-4d6b-3512928e4d6f@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:53:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6BC1269D8FEF61AFDD23E2C2" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 20:53:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6BC1269D8FEF61AFDD23E2C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/12/21 8:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:21 PM Mark Nottingham > wrote: > > Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service: > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html > > > > Every single time someone suggests there is a user demand for > something better than SMTP email from the 1980s that hasn't changed > since MIME, they are aggressively patronized and told that there is > absolutely no way that the legacy system can ever, ever be replaced. On the contrary, email is constantly being replaced with facilities that are far less functional.     As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with email is that has become so widely used by everybody and everybot, that one's mailbox is typically full of low-value information.  (And while the delete key is not hard to find, there are so many low-value messages that simply selecting and deleting messages is a time-consuming chore, and every low-value message is a nuisance.   Also, not everyone deletes messages as they are read.) Keith --------------6BC1269D8FEF61AFDD23E2C2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 7/12/21 8:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service:
  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html

Every single time someone suggests there is a user demand for something better than SMTP email from the 1980s that hasn't changed since MIME, they are aggressively patronized and told that there is absolutely no way that the legacy system can ever, ever be replaced.

On the contrary, email is constantly being replaced with facilities that are far less functional.     As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with email is that has become so widely used by everybody and everybot, that one's mailbox is typically full of low-value information.  (And while the delete key is not hard to find, there are so many low-value messages that simply selecting and deleting messages is a time-consuming chore, and every low-value message is a nuisance.   Also, not everyone deletes messages as they are read.)

Keith


--------------6BC1269D8FEF61AFDD23E2C2-- From nobody Fri Jul 16 15:12:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EB83A0D47 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:12:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9DClqOZtoQmU for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f169.google.com (mail-yb1-f169.google.com [209.85.219.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59DDE3A0D49 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f169.google.com with SMTP id y38so17254385ybi.1 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:12:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tBr8ueYIgRqK/O3LG04aU6s7J+V9MY+UqwfqJMGpVT8=; b=jcKo8tbK3H3TFmirsk2Cg0g1l7HTdjgBPuGiTO9X19UE4TUVrZISCITYlDgQyfHVGJ yGSjiTOo4rwWz8lvR37YBWm6+qD+CHIm4oCPziSzaSmeoYBKq0DdqlxnehwlmkaxG29v uA88onild+KgAyG9JV2/hvliRz0KOWyMng6J5sMU1/6nPJT4wQiI1g//A+N/gwdZ+ouN A2Jm0zx82NCEx7S+Hoo4hTT/By65Mw5JdyyfjA8T5eKBIYzRWzcYj9epqm/zsgqWWvAy 8Gx3ZXtCO7a9MIQlEufibe+hsNgBtJxYVGrtgcTLaAz5AWaJF2ZdHBdPSh/xcSk9Dvwm ozjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fFAKKqBGz54PEM4pvOHX5VP4zfrvFvFykGveLhMVt6k6DlGvh VRAZ70NrUcBPybBNEgH/DvUk4dZmOj/xm3euoYddkyusd4KbHw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbxsr2kSNDzPt/MBh291rMXTPlAS7dPDW65tFNj6UO4nDV6lqjQWlDN2b5HOUV/fY6KLMbPhFXBO/5R3bs3Z0= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2d57:: with SMTP id s23mr15892270ybe.302.1626473531354; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <24DB6859-8538-4A85-8C4C-E35DF688ECB5@mnot.net> <31713928-0cda-4645-0df3-92af3381c2f5@gmail.com> <73ee5ac7-c227-756a-443c-8df6c0308e31@gmail.com> <3a9576e0-d485-6d26-4d6b-3512928e4d6f@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <3a9576e0-d485-6d26-4d6b-3512928e4d6f@network-heretics.com> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 18:12:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012b41205c744e1d2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 22:12:18 -0000 --00000000000012b41205c744e1d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 4:53 PM Keith Moore wrote: > On 7/12/21 8:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:21 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service: >> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html > > > Every single time someone suggests there is a user demand for something > better than SMTP email from the 1980s that hasn't changed since MIME, they > are aggressively patronized and told that there is absolutely no way that > the legacy system can ever, ever be replaced. > > On the contrary, email is constantly being replaced with facilities that > are far less functional. As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with > email is that has become so widely used by everybody and everybot, that > one's mailbox is typically full of low-value information. (And while the > delete key is not hard to find, there are so many low-value messages that > simply selecting and deleting messages is a time-consuming chore, and every > low-value message is a nuisance. Also, not everyone deletes messages as > they are read.) > The critical flaw in all the mail alternatives is that make them less than SMTP is that they are closed. Can't use Signal to call a Skype account. Everyone has their walled garden, and none of the majors see any reason to open their proprietary systems up. But we need to go further, email is also defective as a change of mail service provider forces me to change my email address unless I own a DNS domain which is far more than most people on the planet can afford. (No redirects do not solve this problem as I have to rely on the old service provider to redirect). And of course, end to end encryption, digitally authenticate every message and zero effort security are table stakes. We need a mail system that allows a user to use their human friendly name for life. So @alice, not alice@example.com. And that name has to be really cheap and owned by the user, not rented with an annual fee. This is not yet operational but I think it could fit the bill: Mathematical Mesh 3.0 Part VII: Mesh Callsign Service (ietf.org) https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-hallambaker-mesh-callsign-00.html This architecture is targeted at personal use. DNS works OK for organizations which is what it was designed for. Basically it is a blockchain approach without any crypto-currency ideology involved. The registry binds a name to a public signature key which is the user's root of trust and the address of their current service provider. The registry is public so you are not going to want to put an SMTP email there unless you are a masochist. But the service provider can publish (under suitable access control) a contact record giving SMTP, Jabber, OpenPGP, S/MIME etc. coordinates. Maybe there isn't interest, after all, on day 1 the only use for a messaging scheme of this type is going to be inside organizations. But that is where at least 80% of communication is occurring in most enterprises. Having a separate secure email system for internal use does make sense. And especially if it then allows communications with the lawyers, accountants, customers, etc. --00000000000012b41205c744e1d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 16, 2= 021 at 4:53 PM Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

On 7/12/21 8:02 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 7:21 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Somewhat relevant, courtesy of the newsclips service:
=C2=A0 https://www.nytimes= .com/2021/07/10/business/gen-z-email.html

Every single time someone suggests there is a user demand for something better than SMTP email from the 1980s that hasn't changed since MIME, they are aggressively patronized and told that there is absolutely no way that the legacy system can ever, ever be replaced.

On the contrary, email is constantly being replaced with facilities that are far less functional.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As f= ar as I can tell, the biggest problem with email is that has become so widely used by everybody and everybot, that one's mailbox is typically full o= f low-value information.=C2=A0 (And while the delete key is not hard to find, there are so many low-value messages that simply selecting and deleting messages is a time-consuming chore, and every low-value message is a nuisance.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, not everyone delet= es messages as they are read.)

The critical flaw in all the mail = alternatives is that make them less than SMTP is that they are closed. Can&= #39;t use Signal to call a Skype account. Everyone has their walled garden,= and none of the majors see any reason to open their proprietary=C2=A0syste= ms up.

But we need to go further, email is also defective as a change of ma= il service provider forces me to change my email address unless I own a DNS= domain which is far more than most people on the planet can afford. (No re= directs do not solve this problem as I have to rely on the old service prov= ider to redirect).

And of= course, end to end encryption, digitally authenticate every message and ze= ro effort security are table stakes.


We need a mail system that allows a user to use their human friendly name= for life. So=C2=A0@alice, not alice@e= xample.com. And that name has to be really cheap and owned by the user,= not rented with an annual=C2=A0fee.=C2=A0

This is not yet operational but I think it could fit the = bill:

Mathematic= al Mesh 3.0 Part VII: Mesh Callsign Service (ietf.org)

<= /div>
This architecture is targeted at personal= use. DNS works OK for organizations which is what it was designed for.


Basically it = is a blockchain approach without any crypto-currency ideology involved. The= registry binds a name to a public signature key which is the user's ro= ot of trust and the address of their current service provider.

The registry is public so you are not= going to want to put an SMTP email there unless you are a masochist. But t= he service provider can publish (under suitable access control) a contact r= ecord giving SMTP, Jabber, OpenPGP, S/MIME etc. coordinates.


Maybe there isn't interest, after all, on day 1 the only use for a mes= saging scheme of this type is going to be inside organizations. But that is= where at least 80% of communication is occurring in most enterprises. Havi= ng a separate secure email system for internal use does make sense. And esp= ecially if it then allows communications with the lawyers, accountants, cus= tomers, etc.

=C2=A0
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[45.19.110.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a20sm3926106qtp.19.2021.07.16.22.24.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 16 Jul 2021 22:24:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Suresh Krishnan Message-Id: <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67E527D8-5CED-4D45-95BC-358958A98EB0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 01:24:52 -0400 In-Reply-To: <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> Cc: rfc-interest , GENDISPATCH List To: Mirja Kuehlewind References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 05:25:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67E527D8-5CED-4D45-95BC-358958A98EB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi all, As Mirja mentioned in her mail, I have gone over 500 recent RFCs = (8000-8500) to look at Updates relationships and characterize them. Out = of these 500 there were 95 RFCs that updated other RFCs. Some of them = updated multiple RFCs and the total number of updated RFCs was 163. Then = I went about trying to classify the Updates relationship into the = different kinds of update relationships described in our draft. Some of = these were fairly easy to classify but others required a fair bit of = reading to guess the intent of the authors/editors/WG (which by itself = is a problem that needs to be solved). There were quite a few cases that = were subjective and reasonable people could disagree on how to classify = them. If you see an RFC that you think is miscategorized on the sheet = (especially if you were an author/chair/AD) please do chime in. Overall there was a fairly even split between the Amending relationship = and the Extending relationship. 59 of the 95 RFCs ended up Amending the = =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFC(s) and 50 of them ended up Extending the = =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFCs (14 of the 95 RFCs ended up doing both). = There were very few (4) updating RFCs that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee = Also=E2=80=9D category but that is probably explained by the fairly = conservative use of Updates. For the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80=9D case it = might be better to look at non-updating RFC (It would be a fairly time = consuming exercise) to see if this tag is relevant. Please let us know if you have any questions or comments. I have also = uploaded the raw data to Google sheets in case you wanted to look (no = account needed to view and comment) at = https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OY33xNuMXrkxs8sQau6rHEzeIhKya0Ufmi= INMc1uCK8/edit?usp=3Dsharing = Thanks Suresh > On Jul 13, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > as promised we revived draft-kuehlewind-update-tag and submitted a new = version yesterday. There are no substantial changes but there are some = editorial changes and a bit more text in the security consideration = section: >=20 > - One part is about the need to have the same "kind" of consensus for = amendments as the original RFC had. This question came recently up for = me in another context and I added some thoughts. >=20 > - I tried to reflect some of the discussion about risks of failure. I = personally believe that the worst thing that can happens is that this = change will not improve the situation but I don't think it will make it = worse. Therefore I would like to see this published as BCP. However, if = people would be more comfortable to run this as an experiment that would = be doable as well and we can discuss the parameters of that (duration = and criteria for success/failure). More input on that point is = definitely welcome! >=20 > Also we will update you in the next days with data on the analysis = Suresh did about the usage of the Updates tag so far. So if that is of = interest for you, please stay tuned and wait for another mail from us! >=20 > Mirja and Suresh >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 12.07.21, 16:23, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" = wrote: >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to = the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-kuehlewind-update-tag > Revision: 04 > Title: Definition of new tags for relations between = RFCs > Document date: 2021-07-12 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 9 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/ > Html: = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04 >=20 > Abstract: > An RFC can include a tag called "Updates" which can be used to = link a > new RFC to an existing RFC. On publication of such an RFC, the > existing RFC will include an additional metadata tag called = "Updated > by" which provides a link to the new RFC. However, this tag = pair is > not well-defined and therefore it is currently used for multiple > different purposes, which leads to confusion about the actual = meaning > of this tag and inconsistency in its use. >=20 > This document recommends the discontinuation of the use of the > updates/updated by tag pair, and instead proposes three new tag = pairs > that have well-defined meanings and use cases. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_67E527D8-5CED-4D45-95BC-358958A98EB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = all,
  As Mirja mentioned in her mail, I have gone = over 500 recent RFCs (8000-8500) to look at Updates relationships and = characterize them. Out of these 500 there were 95 RFCs that updated = other RFCs. Some of them updated multiple RFCs and the total number of = updated RFCs was 163. Then I went about trying to classify the Updates = relationship into the different kinds of update relationships described = in our draft. Some of these were fairly easy to classify but others = required a fair bit of reading to guess the intent of the = authors/editors/WG (which by itself is a problem that needs to be = solved). There were quite a few cases that were subjective and = reasonable people could disagree on how to classify them. If you = see an RFC that you think is miscategorized on the sheet = (especially if you were an author/chair/AD) please do chime = in.

Overall = there was a fairly even split between the Amending relationship and the = Extending relationship. 59 of the 95 RFCs ended up Amending the = =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFC(s) and 50 of them ended up Extending the = =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFCs (14 of the 95 RFCs ended up doing both). = There were very few (4) updating RFCs that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee = Also=E2=80=9D category but that is probably explained by the fairly = conservative use of Updates. For the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80=9D case it = might be better to look at non-updating RFC (It would be a fairly time = consuming exercise) to see if this tag is relevant.

Please let us know if = you have any questions or comments. I have also uploaded the raw data to = Google sheets in case you wanted to look (no account needed to view and = comment) at

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OY33xNuMXrkxs8sQau6rHEz= eIhKya0UfmiINMc1uCK8/edit?usp=3Dsharing

Thanks
Suresh

On Jul 13, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi = all,

as promised we revived = draft-kuehlewind-update-tag and submitted a new version yesterday. There = are no substantial changes but there are some editorial changes and a = bit more text in the security consideration section:

- One part is about the need to have the same "kind" of = consensus for amendments as the original RFC had. This question came = recently up for me in another context and I added some thoughts.

- I tried to reflect some of the discussion = about risks of failure. I personally believe that the worst thing that = can happens is that this change will not improve the situation but I = don't think it will make it worse. Therefore I would like to see this = published as BCP. However, if people would be more comfortable to run = this as an experiment that would be doable as well and we can discuss = the parameters of that (duration and criteria for success/failure). More = input on that point is definitely welcome!

Also we will update you in the next days with data on the = analysis Suresh did about the usage of the Updates tag so far. So if = that is of interest for you, please stay tuned and wait for another mail = from us!

Mirja and Suresh




=EF=BB=BFOn = 12.07.21, 16:23, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:


   A new version of I-D, = draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt
   has = been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to the
   IETF repository.

   Name: draft-kuehlewind-update-tag
   Revision: 04
=    Title: Definition of new tags for = relations between RFCs
   Document = date: = 2021-07-12
   Group: = Individual Submission
=    Pages: 9
=    URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.= txt
   Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/
   Html: =           https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.= html
   Htmlized: =       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-update-t= ag
   Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kuehlewind-update-tag= -04

   Abstract:
      An RFC can include a tag = called "Updates" which can be used to link a
=       new RFC to an existing RFC.  On = publication of such an RFC, the
=       existing RFC will include an = additional metadata tag called "Updated
=       by" which provides a link to the new = RFC.  However, this tag pair is
=       not well-defined and therefore it is = currently used for multiple
=       different purposes, which leads to = confusion about the actual meaning
=       of this tag and inconsistency in its = use.

=       This document recommends the = discontinuation of the use of the
=       updates/updated by tag pair, and = instead proposes three new tag pairs
=       that have well-defined meanings and = use cases.




   The IETF Secretariat




= --Apple-Mail=_67E527D8-5CED-4D45-95BC-358958A98EB0-- From nobody Sat Jul 17 14:19:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8173A2200 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:19:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8k3n4kzv1dzp for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 249A43A21FE for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id o3-20020a17090a6783b0290173ce472b8aso11544887pjj.2 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:19:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lhRMJAO/FbwkFL5h7ZURQwrDjI4cS8gLOGpCkbSVhRY=; b=UqIkbtMVDY6lAf/icEPbc+LSPYt3mUATsWfSKM9SSjw8ohKnK0RnzA7+KryyfDoCSs En+u9fzg66qYnohI3YbEVB0XViLYIwNgk3Fed/YG2bvg51dywe2QGKQOg5m1OQbXxvp2 V5FnmeYixqxpPC26EH1GcR2m686wLQnBg/abofFsv6P5XrjV1OlupJE6nOA1vN4x2mYK 32Tsro4gUEF8p2R9hNSlRuvDiYPoZ0trWKSnoQhM4yZNqjeHx5kQn7+53Br5lKFCXzYg NYx5Q5Za71m+T+xA57hs6JFVMffdjSs+wD9tHKbetho5z4tCzr3RMPM4knSmrgbFS7ZR Vdmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lhRMJAO/FbwkFL5h7ZURQwrDjI4cS8gLOGpCkbSVhRY=; b=TqgQ0mtFXgVI5Ob4h1hj3ilOKGFMSnnQviEHZvi/ANnykehPYLvM/KB7txb3Al1BjR LtVinWk3niqoTCk37nZO1eH+qHOlT4k3kUMYErq1GGRdMiAE3AzhftPalQ+q8G60oXcK VdpMUp82DL4gYrAJrAB2NaI894ErD1CHR0u01LMLYHOBril8UbmYk5TSKwJ8TCD4WaaJ neu9/JjcMKULd/VBshP0SkmoleC+XRykIQwd847aB0lO8g0ypA1Y4ttSoJEdq1Wvjmej xWgljqSX/KoZ76qIiz0wLE72HBXqkjP9+AFLoA1Mo+FjYs+a8/+uGL19XYvnGX0U2Q4l P2Mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530A3wXHM+vH03agTgzpJ+yvpgom0z8HTUo2fZo6gHb8p3Nh03RR OCFlCIBBoW4qv4m1dnDOmbMCwA23lW+llg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyB0jrqJyVlZ5rnrR4AkmRcU1D9h1SnMhs4AdwleU7myxU97AOijJ7Nh8lx/w5Vdlz/ojOQ3Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:f698:: with SMTP id cl24mr21779058pjb.79.1626556775556; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b17sm11875309pfm.54.2021.07.17.14.19.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:19:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Suresh Krishnan , Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: rfc-interest , GENDISPATCH List References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 09:19:30 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2021 21:19:43 -0000 Thanks Suresh, that was a big effort. I have one question. Please just answer subjectively, I am not asking for=20 more work, but do you have a feeling what % of the "Amended" are correcti= ons vs changes of intention? > There were very few (4) updating RFCs that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee A= lso=E2=80=9D category That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for example=20 a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could have a=20 "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different from "u= pdates". Regards Brian On 17-Jul-21 17:24, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi all, > =C2=A0 As Mirja mentioned in her mail, I have gone over 500 recent RFCs=20 (8000-8500) to look at Updates relationships and characterize them. Out o= f these 500 there were 95 RFCs that updated other RFCs. Some of them upda= ted multiple RFCs and the total number of updated RFCs was 163. Then I we= nt about trying to classify the Updates relationship into the different k= inds of update relationships described in our draft. Some of these were f= airly easy to classify but others required a fair bit of reading to guess=20 the intent of the authors/editors/WG (which by itself is a problem that n= eeds to be solved). There were quite a few cases that were subjective and=20 reasonable people could disagree on how to classify them. If you see=C2=A0= an RFC that you think is miscategorized on the sheet (especially if you w= ere an author/chair/AD) please do chime in. >=20 > Overall there was a fairly even split between the Amending relationship=20 and the Extending relationship. 59 of the 95 RFCs ended up Amending the =E2= =80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFC(s) and 50 of them ended up Extending the =E2=80= =9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFCs (14 of the 95 RFCs ended up doing both). There w= ere very few (4) updating RFCs that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80= =9D category but that is probably explained by the fairly conservative us= e of Updates. For the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80=9D case it might be better = to look at non-updating RFC (It would be a fairly time consuming exercise= ) to see if this tag is relevant. >=20 > Please let us know if you have any questions or comments. I have also u= ploaded the raw data to Google sheets in case you wanted to look (no acco= unt needed to view and comment) at >=20 > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OY33xNuMXrkxs8sQau6rHEzeIhKya0U= fmiINMc1uCK8/edit?usp=3Dsharing >=20 > Thanks > Suresh >=20 >> On Jul 13, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> as promised we revived draft-kuehlewind-update-tag and submitted a new=20 version yesterday. There are no substantial changes but there are some ed= itorial changes and a bit more text in the security consideration section= : >> >> - One part is about the need to have the same "kind" of consensus for = amendments as the original RFC had. This question came recently up for me=20 in another context and I added some thoughts. >> >> - I tried to reflect some of the discussion about risks of failure. I = personally believe that the worst thing that can happens is that this cha= nge will not improve the situation but I don't think it will make it wors= e. Therefore I would like to see this published as BCP. However, if peopl= e would be more comfortable to run this as an experiment that would be do= able as well and we can discuss the parameters of that (duration and crit= eria for success/failure). More input on that point is definitely welcome= ! >> >> Also we will update you in the next days with data on the analysis Sur= esh did about the usage of the Updates tag so far. So if that is of inter= est for you, please stay tuned and wait for another mail from us! >> >> Mirja and Suresh >> >> >> >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn 12.07.21, 16:23, "internet-drafts@ietf.org " > wrote: >> >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04= =2Etxt >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind = and posted to the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0IETF repository. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Name:draft-kuehlewind-update-tag >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Revision:04 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title:Definition of new tags for relations between R= FCs >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Document date:2021-07-12 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Group:Individual Submission >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Pages:9 >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update= -tag-04.txt >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/ >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Html: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-0= 4.html >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https:= //datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Diff: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kuehlewind-update-t= ag-04 >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Abstract: >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0An RFC can include a tag called "U= pdates" which can be used to link a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0new RFC to an existing RFC. =C2=A0= On publication of such an RFC, the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0existing RFC will include an addit= ional metadata tag called "Updated >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0by" which provides a link to the n= ew RFC. =C2=A0However, this tag pair is >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0not well-defined and therefore it = is currently used for multiple >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0different purposes, which leads to=20 confusion about the actual meaning >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of this tag and inconsistency in i= ts use. >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This document recommends the disco= ntinuation of the use of the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0updates/updated by tag pair, and i= nstead proposes three new tag pairs >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0that have well-defined meanings an= d use cases. >> >> >> >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The IETF Secretariat >> >> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Jul 17 18:56:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749473A2D4D for ; 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18 Jul 2021 01:55:53 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7EACA24AC0B6; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 21:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: 17 Jul 2021 21:55:51 -0400 Message-Id: <20210718015552.7EACA24AC0B6@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: phill@hallambaker.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] if you think mail is bad, Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 01:56:04 -0000 It appears that Phillip Hallam-Baker said: >But we need to go further, email is also defective as a change of mail >service provider forces me to change my email address unless I own a DNS >domain which is far more than most people on the planet can afford. (No >redirects do not solve this problem as I have to rely on the old service >provider to redirect). That would be nice, but unless you want mail to be regulated like telephones, I don't think we want to go there. If someone's mail address is stable and portable, that means it will be the handle for lots of accounts, and it will be valuable, so there will arguments about who really owns an address, and how to reset or recover the crdentials (including if it's moved to another service without the user's consent, the mobile phone SIM swap attack) or someone has a power of attorney or consrvatorship or whatever. I believe your blockchain will work technically, but these are not problems you can solve with a blockchain. I also observe that we have idenntifiers ranging from phone numbers to drivers' licenses to passports, and few of them are permanent, they change if you move from one state to another or change providers. The only one you can't change in the US is your social security number which is so overused as to be useless as an identifier. At this point while I am acutely aware of all of e-mail's problems, it still is less bad than any replacement on offer. R's, John From nobody Sun Jul 18 15:19:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2B03A1151; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id alogjGhiGWy6; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D7CE03A114E; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:19:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_855F8F67-DF6E-4E34-8B30-ABC1923DB2D7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:19:40 +1200 In-Reply-To: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> Cc: GENDISPATCH List , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: John Levine References: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Tools-discuss] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 22:19:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_855F8F67-DF6E-4E34-8B30-ABC1923DB2D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 When it comes to letting people select the information that they want to = get notified about, the concept of a list such as ietf-announce is = perhaps a bit out of date. Nowadays people simply use a form to say, I = want this, this and that delivered to this mailbox and that to that = mailbox and none of that please. Behind the scenes this would probably = best be implemented with API populated Mailman lists and possibly topics = and I=E2=80=99m sure people would want the from address to be stay as = ietf-announce@ietf.org , but it might = actually be several lists in the background. Jay > On 14/07/2021, at 8:14 AM, John Levine wrote: >=20 > It appears that Lars Eggert said: >> On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the = "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic = notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people >> who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need = to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is = that we modify the automatic >> notification system to allow people to customize which notifications = they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, = which could even be called >> ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the = server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] >>>=20 >>> -Ekr >>>=20 >>> [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every = announcement. >>=20 >> I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker = code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged? >>=20 >> (This part of the discussion should also probably move to = tools-discus.) >=20 > You really, REALLY, do not want to try to reinvent a bulk mail system. >=20 > GNU Mailman has a little-used "topics" feature that I think can do the = trick here. The list manager configures > a set of topic regexps for the list, and subscribers can say which = topics they want. In each message the topic(s) > appear in the Subject or Keywords line and it sends the message to the = people subscribed to the topics. If you don't > pick any topics, by default you get all of them. >=20 > See https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node29.html >=20 > The interface within mailman to set the topics is pretty grody, but I = presume it just puts stuff in the underlying > database so we could invent our own interface to it without extreme = pain. >=20 > R's, > John >=20 > PS: Some of us don't subscribe to any IETF lists but instead retrieve = the messages from the IMAP server, but I think we > can fend for ourselves. >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_855F8F67-DF6E-4E34-8B30-ABC1923DB2D7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
When it comes to letting people select the information that = they want to get notified about, the concept of a list such as = ietf-announce is perhaps a bit out of date.  Nowadays people simply = use a form to say, I want this, this and that delivered to this mailbox = and that to that mailbox and none of that please.  Behind the = scenes this would probably best be implemented with API populated = Mailman lists and possibly topics and I=E2=80=99m sure people would want = the from address to be stay as ietf-announce@ietf.org, but it might actually be several = lists in the background.

Jay

On 14/07/2021, at 8:14 AM, John = Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

It = appears that Lars Eggert  <lars@eggert.org> said:
On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
With that said, there's = no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing list = paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the = number of people
who send mail to = ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a = simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the = automatic
notification system to allow people to customize = which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to = go to the same list, which could even be called
ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter = on the server side and get just the subset they care about. [0]

-Ekr

[0] We can of course still build an archive = that has every announcement.

I = like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker = code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged?

(This part of the discussion should also = probably move to tools-discus.)

You really, REALLY, do not want to try to reinvent a bulk = mail system.

GNU Mailman has a little-used = "topics" feature that I think can do the trick here.  The list = manager configures
a set of topic regexps for the list, = and subscribers can say which topics they want.  In each message = the topic(s)
appear in the Subject or Keywords line and it = sends the message to the people subscribed to the topics.  If you = don't
pick any topics, by default you get all of them.

See https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node29.html=

The interface within mailman to set = the topics is pretty grody, but I presume it just puts stuff in the = underlying
database so we could invent our own interface = to it without extreme pain.

R's,
John

PS: Some of us don't = subscribe to any IETF lists but instead retrieve the messages from the = IMAP server, but I think we
can fend for ourselves.

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for = discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* = Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other = bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including = how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_855F8F67-DF6E-4E34-8B30-ABC1923DB2D7-- From nobody Sun Jul 18 15:28:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6AE3A11CB for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:28:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=mccAYI4K; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=TykekXVJ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AmHjcQt6QQKT for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 027413A11CA for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77294 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2021 22:22:05 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=12deb.60f4a98d.k2107; bh=lXchAQhl2xSnyzeddk7eHDPO58Ko6kAIXE6NUwI3+iY=; b=mccAYI4Kc0t/9Pwt2cGH4NAuDlPF9Xb3kc7PxWG7FnZUHf/BtfyoXiueuvv8g5XNm/xQRRX+ptEQGJjQa/KUR6mvPws4SWFUiQ/OSZ19hdbfHIJRXcMx15+kEREGSrprJjIRTVvs68z9XHnXIEaKBx6QpUwn0y7+q6Z6VPwwgAXr8mBTtiRXaATRWj1e+qhlZJnvCgREKC/FW6PuHSQ/TGUUuT/1CGaebCDBnHdxJtrIEuMRQDnaDBo5zAteBfaboMPnsr4r1HoXak19fbRfDufKoKWl9TvUmRQ1w/FGBUVV/BlOBXGzaboRIwoO1CHl5rwC4qnswvwLdHr9lkgf9w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=12deb.60f4a98d.k2107; bh=lXchAQhl2xSnyzeddk7eHDPO58Ko6kAIXE6NUwI3+iY=; b=TykekXVJlvB3lndpfF7AK281DUXvQtyHxZMZtu+5iJ40D6ryq+4iUqN3VrFHm8obBiZpsdWnvbQy3AdAMi5kX9CpwHyMq8keag/UqdCEQeraLm+T4SxhxNQBcr1JSe9jHlM2H6BBiX6Z8Hw2kOjnhR45hKbzLYMsdTvsvjtVHrwrN+pdgh+GZA2mDuhQYMxYDeKnr3oZ1PzrGQGkWvFUzNQjgjPbGmVXCc7tJCXxnd7gD4jfh0fAoxmR9miMsZR0K8bg/RZqa5v7Mak7AoWzaWGIRWlRJMqYelMBdI7iG+6n7ZYLHeDjUrE87n3eOMqBoxS5UZbYWCH4bZGtRo/sAg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 18 Jul 2021 22:22:05 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 21BA724B2753; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 18:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F4924B2735; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 18:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: 18 Jul 2021 18:22:03 -0400 Message-ID: <21788991-7b7-d172-b325-5ab0e167ee6c@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Jay Daley" Cc: "GENDISPATCH List" , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210713201429.5881D2150B1F@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1249114230-1626646923=:15698" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] [Tools-discuss] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2021 22:28:53 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1249114230-1626646923=:15698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT > When it comes to letting people select the information that they want to get notified about, the concept of a list such as ietf-announce is perhaps a bit out of date. Nowadays people simply use a form to say, I want this, this and that delivered to this mailbox and that to that mailbox and none of that please. Behind the scenes this would probably best be implemented with API populated Mailman lists and possibly topics and I’m sure people would want the from address to be stay as ietf-announce@ietf.org , but it might actually be several lists in the background. That's certainly a reasonable way to do it. To minimize mysterious side effects in the mail archive and IMAP server, I'd do it with an API that adjusts the topics in one list and leave the lower level stuff alone. I don't think that would be very hard. R's, John >> On 14/07/2021, at 8:14 AM, John Levine wrote: >> >> It appears that Lars Eggert said: >>> On 2021-7-13, at 1:50, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> With that said, there's no reason to be locked into the "one-size-fits-all" mailing list paradigm for this kind of automatic notification. Unlike ietf@, the number of people >>> who send mail to ietf-announce is very small, so we don't really need to have it as a simple mailing list. Instead, what I would suggest is that we modify the automatic >>> notification system to allow people to customize which notifications they want to receive (they can still allo appear to go to the same list, which could even be called >>> ietf-announce if we want). That way, people can easily filter on the server side and get just the subset they care about. [0] >>>> >>>> -Ekr >>>> >>>> [0] We can of course still build an archive that has every announcement. >>> >>> I like this idea. Would this need to result in new custom datatracker code, or is there a third-party service that could be leveraged? >>> >>> (This part of the discussion should also probably move to tools-discus.) >> >> You really, REALLY, do not want to try to reinvent a bulk mail system. >> >> GNU Mailman has a little-used "topics" feature that I think can do the trick here. The list manager configures >> a set of topic regexps for the list, and subscribers can say which topics they want. In each message the topic(s) >> appear in the Subject or Keywords line and it sends the message to the people subscribed to the topics. If you don't >> pick any topics, by default you get all of them. >> >> See https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node29.html >> >> The interface within mailman to set the topics is pretty grody, but I presume it just puts stuff in the underlying >> database so we could invent our own interface to it without extreme pain. >> >> R's, >> John >> >> PS: Some of us don't subscribe to any IETF lists but instead retrieve the messages from the IMAP server, but I think we >> can fend for ourselves. >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > > Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly --0-1249114230-1626646923=:15698-- From nobody Sun Jul 18 21:10:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF543A20A9 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:10:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 46Gc4rWCyfT2 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C2D83A20A5 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id a80so4129183qkg.11 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:10:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=8zreuOz/G+vqFtALEvF/VArOf02mq37+zISSuH5LsLM=; b=TODaHlKaGOoydkpqJIG3fQ+advkHjY+AXqRUkbE6cH1FMnpokxYymXX1Q6ccq3yaHq HTNS5wxi4nBz06vcaZ6fAmAnmK4DedfLa7tu7bwo6CGhOZFlnjIVTrZ0pJH2qPr0dxw+ 8FesuHrDpeWFDXO9aV6XPD9ovx25l4LDNY9+I02gj21jwwAnCOWbdb9o31Fk18JO0ws6 CXMSbRu33KVuzoLS5ycL53oQDMHT3KmbBdhR72XgQWQX3pzT294dKhAMbyqRGxjQQbxI t0K/raRXGtqCoUlYadJzHtvJwSCsfjDAgtxeu2m6FLEU3b4HI4HW9mGpRomUk4gN3vVk 4nzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=8zreuOz/G+vqFtALEvF/VArOf02mq37+zISSuH5LsLM=; b=UyrcseI51vUE53qVKNRIB0xO5teuiBcDeF/n4BMApw2tvjXYZjg6+O1mo6DB2qjpXr O9s/o7sm1GqR7s3bBjTrvO2wi9jaA0HOyEXmEkME/j6qC1ew7aVkzXyZ6/fnLhrwNHY/ 9iDf9Xd8ybzSlBsWro9dBYomoJMP+e2pJtbAZ1b7ofltbrbjxki/Wm22PjAybiP0z+Rc Jx6bA8421+jwWsaLT7cflN04hGC2Kzp8NSAJ3u/nANbWskGqXtGJGdaqeOtMhobpjmfP syqoC0oqQwwACckbLwyenywntToGnP8rkzgrvE2YcjzUoG4Wy5xGZHa3HoEGUJzARiWc 0kRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ptoV3HRLuq9D+gh1ZluiuOtCFPcIguPTNez8oBqGHmBCil9tP miBInPdtErCYgR5GGRtxxjY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzlgWSxtdganeN4HAihgcgPau+6FjKyq3QWYn3Y3PQ2b/3CSqR7Vk553HRq75311sZDQktYdw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1ef:: with SMTP id x15mr22411446qkn.180.1626667811484; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (45-19-110-76.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net. [45.19.110.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i15sm7404870qkk.51.2021.07.18.21.10.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:10:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Suresh Krishnan Message-Id: <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9C0E379E-688A-4EA3-9123-C560BCA341C8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:10:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , rfc-interest , GENDISPATCH List To: Brian E Carpenter References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:10:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9C0E379E-688A-4EA3-9123-C560BCA341C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Brian, > On Jul 17, 2021, at 5:19 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Suresh, that was a big effort. >=20 > I have one question. Please just answer subjectively, I am not asking = for=20 > more work, but do you have a feeling what % of the "Amended" are = corrections vs changes of intention? I don=E2=80=99t recall exactly but I feel that there were more changes = of intention than straight corrections as at least few of these were = crypto changes that led to more stronger algorithm requirements. >=20 >> There were very few (4) updating RFCs that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee = Also=E2=80=9D category >=20 > That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for = example=20 > a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could = have a=20 > "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different from = "updates". Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, Thanks Suresh= --Apple-Mail=_9C0E379E-688A-4EA3-9123-C560BCA341C8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Brian,

On Jul 17, 2021, at 5:19 PM, Brian E = Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Suresh, that was a big effort.

I have one question. Please just = answer subjectively, I am not asking for 
more work, but do you have a = feeling what % of the "Amended" are corrections vs changes of = intention?

I don=E2=80= =99t recall exactly but I feel that there were more changes of intention = than straight corrections as at least few of these were crypto changes = that led to more stronger algorithm requirements.


There = were very few (4) updating RFCs that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80= =9D category

That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; = for example 
a large number of the RFCs cited = in "IPv6 node requirements" could have a 
"see also" relationship with = each other, but it's quite different from "updates".

Yep. Exactly. = Fully agree,

Thanks
Suresh
= --Apple-Mail=_9C0E379E-688A-4EA3-9123-C560BCA341C8-- From nobody Sun Jul 18 21:14:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739783A20D6 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=q64Es6o3; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=N2ClFzI5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6sLpcwFiDfjI for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 199CD3A20D4 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B417E5C0079 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:14:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=loa+1yOWhpT1NvA+sVK8p8ZG0LWJ+1Y XVwsQ4YWXx6o=; b=q64Es6o3y3L8lkBZHcyAzX1LqY3wUZpAoEuw1tylQABqPwd +PkY+Rp6j03pHxjjmUMCMPTIRR6Plqg+DPEGnJ0WyAgX72tGt2WI6//TDBOTEY3Q yfdWFI1oMMIaUVdySHDZXAyU0gtHlaGzM7hgpmuzNALmR/0i7oSYxtF2l7CYwrfO FZ/38qSqZRIKj4m7S+s9YiEx2X3fQmxzW5y2PjlBKltaB5xLVV5riNJ8ZntANjT9 e87gQO0lZFoTBZxFEuNNw9jtsYGNQv+pi/AcWnzfJLm0s0UWG+kC6qiJuCdliUMd 8d04J79h3xa+Ev7fQorMQ+s6g8eD8UNNTSQXggA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=loa+1y OWhpT1NvA+sVK8p8ZG0LWJ+1YXVwsQ4YWXx6o=; b=N2ClFzI5daw/9zwrdY9zt6 abqEo4KB8YoQK8uW5BbKYKQYfnFaGO7NmeqJrBuSsWoHGD/oSSQRrWBHecsl2reC 014TCgasqT+0lLARRAOYrcdw2evhX4ec9Zf340sXmKNoMCJRK3BcPMjS3LO83/If rHDWY33sGquBFCR+ZUPgGD+LDtxCU3HEyhuel3B82xuJ5XsJCh+rqTMm9CxqUDAM T3qe/gallWGxtUWbggSu4hBYL8+r6N3NpY+BCRjfJGnVlFJiKlCaMpfJhyJC5fER 751IN7vVy6YH1V1BirJnFItaGn04WRlnZyxeoIOveyTgX7FbvDTpqOJzeiN2sx6A == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdelgdejfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheefteduudduhedtkefhvd fhteelffdujeegjeffheffveekudeigfeuveekfeelnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgep tdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5F4BF3C0E6C; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:14:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-533-gf73e617b8a-fm-20210712.002-gf73e617b Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 14:14:10 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?Some_data_about_Updates_in_recent_RFCs_?= =?utf-8?q?=28was_Re=3A_New_Version_Notification_for_draft-kuehlewind-upda?= =?utf-8?q?te-tag-04=2Etxt=29?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:14:40 -0000 On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for example > > a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could have a > > "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different from "updates". > > Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be most consistent with its prominence. From nobody Sun Jul 18 21:23:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E391F3A211A for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:23:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=T/oM5mbb; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YvzeDu0T Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l6NK7_oeOjar for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46C673A2117 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6665C0038; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:23:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=/ p3RsiwTeduUcY4z7ljipQ2lH2QxZUTjraUDUQM5Qrk=; b=T/oM5mbbDMbaxjvDY WDcadyPk3TSx3uT5qQRp49mWIpkL3FWL+oWzbz+ekwJzFGF92ZJwbnbmEic0w+LU NarGeAyXeydROoPSIvGPrfI6lzaRcZsUXWxWUfgUGD1TVaOK0iayl4FudzvGOnVu +5X47wVOZDBUnsR9MqLnoG7Yd2cgscfof7J5fdUQosfiqFmB5w3TOUKjYCn1kePH 9TRbFBC6sZA7rLBZOF4dveUJs9uxuuQVzoefCrMBviyyGDAqkgBQ67Ojdsw7VjuJ ND4vEC806/z/8KZs6pKb2mJ855v3dEv75/s9olxbQbLH/haMFzFQWdG3hnZzM1XY AQ3/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=/p3RsiwTeduUcY4z7ljipQ2lH2QxZUTjraUDUQM5Q rk=; b=YvzeDu0TWqHvWH465n+TBfWxIS7nHR0k4t/aavwGUl7insqJTs/vBniWK 9SknV10ZWA3HomeYEC+LeKJvGC8GhkomGdov+wiIh8MettqG0w0HJZN1sDMRlrYX ivvpS1+z/ROjC5u3MKu2/Ruu9arx5LwbtPcBEnCF5L8Jxj0wsoh4yoMHzDfeE00t f4VPBb/TQPGoDRdNazVJp79r2ntDvPxaORCNy+3oIjCaeMgtiaS1SYXuBUhiN9Be g8ZqT/ilSpYZG+0glPV2bJZvWvWaHQVZmBv7dQZiANo9pvZV4pAxH2ptY5pxqeLz bQ4P50tfqJxM99afY4vsVsFfQi0vA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvdelgdejgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepkeduvdeljeegtefhveekhfdtveekleevkeefgeeludeihfdugedvieeuffdttdfh necuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgv th X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 00:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 14:23:20 +1000 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <300F382B-4642-4803-B6CA-F26813E36250@mnot.net> References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:23:33 -0000 I had the same reaction. Rather than just trying to figure out how = people are using our existing, poorly-specified metadata and attempting = to standardise that, we'd be better served by a holistic view of what = the requirements for document metadata actually are, and how they can be = served. Cheers, > On 19 Jul 2021, at 2:14 pm, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >>> That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for = example=20 >>> a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could = have a=20 >>> "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different = from "updates". >>=20 >> Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, >=20 > Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be = most consistent with its prominence. >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Jul 18 21:55:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187BA3A2214 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:55:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tq_9iy24cTA3 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1E183A2213 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id i16-20020a17090acf90b02901736d9d2218so11640868pju.1 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:54:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=40v8GjaH874zJZHJ0HVw3YbglvGFpPyAmCHGGsHJrYs=; b=bFUshyrMzn8qcOhhrHwUPYoN8YxmN+P93ZX+MFjtES5olbBWoo94Wo4M08eye13h5l YVajesXpb0x3IF8/HDT/tECHwPZ+xYA9Ko6spm8Y3/mJK3Hk2pAYQDViNaOyfubcVIAJ HBTKD9Ogw7y1QR0iscA5u9Uqcx8wo6s35SrMr6w8iX0jaYamC4+6hHuVnWbQhMQOFUOu td4CyB+bJfrBm6h3HwTzyICKa8NMonCIyQckmY4+/d/blbu2GcGw71Nm7POWIV22QGN4 aLuRVdsBYQVdlN6uMH9eJQJ9hkEJbKriuD3XQFc0wILJms33maQ/uW5bw3pUR7r7BnfN oXFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=40v8GjaH874zJZHJ0HVw3YbglvGFpPyAmCHGGsHJrYs=; b=ZdlGu2z2B4FbNivnHX4eaoU28SPrf50/tZ4XQvLQd/Q3tWr8Q3QNTNhHXCdkBUhdbs 6UwgOrovdqri8n0cCPqcLOb2wlW1iRZ/RDpLRiNK4T0TlKCxefBjka2pDYatW1en3PCk JmStEmrAs02rw0InPSzj46MgzrCeiEihg8Lj5rs185vNYBnTEhC15mtK/OpwIDWBzYZc GEfqjXCMQmy4WsWKLhwp52BfnaM2JorMXv/GX2hyLu2jPAJQfCQo7xLuNVhuOQNt/AzL HpTMonwi0LcW721+xiyQn+QvtU7wkihUd6I5NeDywu8xGlZ/FSIZ8SUuME1hM4+i3bGR 543Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KCkgwfb5AObZLwYnY0xAoU2E+DjI/gjh+42uV1ioLhMF70xXG vfwAn5o6Gtw+Q+pApPZ1nmCQ9hJYWeMoIg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw00Mmnn+yBPrPJuxqDyBi5PhigLE+dmBB7lisoZ9puo2iia5JV2Lp+55aJxwFQylDyXVJq/w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d595:: with SMTP id v21mr23328128pju.50.1626670496316; Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x68sm18085228pfb.115.2021.07.18.21.54.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Jul 2021 21:54:55 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:54:52 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 04:55:05 -0000 On 19-Jul-21 16:14, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >>> That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for example >>> a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could have a >>> "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different from "updates". >> >> Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, > > Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be most consistent with its prominence. Yes, in many cases a citation (and the implied "cited by") is enough, but "see also" is only intended for occasional use: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html#section-3-4 Brian From nobody Mon Jul 19 01:14:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DB83A28F6 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 01:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4ZhG6XQtjd8 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 01:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F368E3A28F5 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 01:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee72e3300c8312a654c6e573b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e72e:3300:c831:2a65:4c6e:573b]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1m5OPZ-00033c-59; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:14:01 +0200 From: Mirja Kuehlewind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:14:00 +0200 References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> To: GENDISPATCH List In-Reply-To: <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> Message-Id: <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1626682444;f4a16217; X-HE-SMSGID: 1m5OPZ-00033c-59 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 08:14:09 -0000 A citation gives you a reference from the new RFC to an existing one. If = you also want to add a pointer from an existing RFC to a new one, you = need to add meta data. I don=E2=80=99t expect this will be used extensively as I do believe = =E2=80=9Camends" and =E2=80=9Cextents=E2=80=9D covers the most important = cases but it can still be useful (e.g. to connect a suite of = recommendation documents=E2=80=A6?). =20 > On 19. Jul 2021, at 06:54, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 19-Jul-21 16:14, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >>>> That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for = example=20 >>>> a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could = have a=20 >>>> "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different = from "updates". >>>=20 >>> Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, >>=20 >> Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be = most consistent with its prominence. >=20 > Yes, in many cases a citation (and the implied "cited by") is enough, = but "see also" is only intended for occasional use: > = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html#sectio= n-3-4 >=20 > Brian >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Mon Jul 19 13:39:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29393A084D for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:39:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cP6njGxgSHZ for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A63CC3A084B for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id o8so10262133plg.11 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:39:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pz5PHmqeJtoTk+il00s1O7Hut7MC/H883fj4QZz/crw=; b=ZADIY5bWlEf1utDUkdm8z3g1fMHb29qCU+6/u45H7oaG0Xgti4tRfEm4x7G511tvh6 akk1CCBg+w0sJFbd2uJJDy1V6dfBp5N83bBZ79l1WX5gqQIjK5N57J3eXDsk5QPNFoYF OZABC8wRLhydvh6X/8uPuBmzg+HRcpjVoa40WA2SjKwPxlQnWAtdCwFy/bCsunXdygOt l/5zNednKqqUUs9tlmWk3ciVA2kZ0J/UgmrIPrE9ITPUWko2PureWYUSqpp+8TFsYAYs k/uldGk7ARqtVyYZvhQRAUS0KBig9nkfnBtwcCTwL78JMkSbZzolr9TcO6SHzp2kluUg Bm8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Pz5PHmqeJtoTk+il00s1O7Hut7MC/H883fj4QZz/crw=; b=GEoeOeNLy4tKD61Y5AeO58r8lXH/KR+esFLBDQX1AYaE5Gx4fuwaWTnFho+EHd8fB0 tkMT0d+/ugDZBvqdFcIAU1eVbRJoX+lxf7ikdbYrdPPxS2Ay7s6eUy940hLP4n83aJkG nl0kVlg7CxuPW6W3oDosmTXg7eRY0CB1QSMpWqq0FzMJbDH+5YEF8+19afegLx96Nvq6 E7INQ9/nsPEBSoibaZ10flIR4xsOl7ob8Ar+BQXOK5CC+VeVBdJ/YXXOB/H5Be7x5Ua7 TOVQtNrOznzzUCV1wRrr3RLDr2+UufBGpmYmSC80LJwGaWS4abt/loZIi8jlkr2WHYWp LlDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533DtNhskwusw+8bR+nFJcee36weEXC9dUO8n3DDmRI9sIiokJoy a1gDGT9ddxuQI9LjYfjNP6QB9+teFOXpxQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCoZPJ1kEy8PwajQEkvgE4gRMLlmBqtnFI1kiayLz5cJ25FamLWC+ZLD9y6cslUO//DA+YNA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1a92:: with SMTP id ng18mr26906393pjb.86.1626727175995; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l2sm20470882pfc.157.2021.07.19.13.39.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:39:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind , GENDISPATCH List References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <2969a321-0f3f-9d54-b993-1b1e87d1fb11@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 08:39:31 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:39:43 -0000 On 19-Jul-21 20:14, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > A citation gives you a reference from the new RFC to an existing one. I= f you also want to add a pointer from an existing RFC to a new one, you n= eed to add meta data. Right, but I don't think the current text in the draft makes it clear whe= n you would want to do this. Consider that "cited by" is already availabl= e in the tracker, e.g. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8200/reference= dby/ I chose that example to make it clear that "See also" is not the same as = "Cited by". Which of the RFCs that cite RFC8200 would deserve a "See also= "? And, by the way, who decides, since this will be added after publicati= on? Brian >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t expect this will be used extensively as I do believe =E2= =80=9Camends" and =E2=80=9Cextents=E2=80=9D covers the most important cas= es but it can still be useful (e.g. to connect a suite of recommendation = documents=E2=80=A6?). > =20 >=20 >> On 19. Jul 2021, at 06:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 19-Jul-21 16:14, Martin Thomson wrote: >>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >>>>> That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for e= xample=20 >>>>> a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" could = have a=20 >>>>> "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different f= rom "updates". >>>> >>>> Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, >>> >>> Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be mo= st consistent with its prominence. >> >> Yes, in many cases a citation (and the implied "cited by") is enough, = but "see also" is only intended for occasional use: >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html#se= ction-3-4 >> >> Brian >> >> --=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 20 02:22:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705CD3A1A57 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1EWjITa5ZXfp for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 675763A1A4F for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee72e330071f0835cd725ddff.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e72e:3300:71f0:835c:d725:ddff]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1m5lxF-0003Wn-Ay; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:22:21 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <2969a321-0f3f-9d54-b993-1b1e87d1fb11@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:22:20 +0200 Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> <2969a321-0f3f-9d54-b993-1b1e87d1fb11@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1626772949;8fe6cdbd; X-HE-SMSGID: 1m5lxF-0003Wn-Ay Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 09:22:36 -0000 Please see inline. > On 19. Jul 2021, at 22:39, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 19-Jul-21 20:14, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >> A citation gives you a reference from the new RFC to an existing one. = If you also want to add a pointer from an existing RFC to a new one, you = need to add meta data. >=20 > Right, but I don't think the current text in the draft makes it clear = when you would want to do this. Consider that "cited by" is already = available in the tracker, e.g. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8200/referencedby/ >=20 > I chose that example to make it clear that "See also" is not the same = as "Cited by". Which of the RFCs that cite RFC8200 would deserve a "See = also=E2=80=9D? Thanks for bring this example up. This list at least shows that =E2=80=9Cc= ited by=E2=80=9D is not useful in this context. I guess most of the = documents on this list =E2=80=9Cuse=E2=80=9D RFC8200. So for the reader = of the new documents, it=E2=80=99s important to have the pointer to = FC8200 but any reader of RFC8200 would probably not really be interested = in most of those documents on this list. I don=E2=80=99t think I have a = perfect answer which of these documents could be =E2=80=9Csee also=E2=80=9D= (and I didn=E2=80=99t try to put in the time just now to figure it out) = but I would expect a much shorter list. > And, by the way, who decides, since this will be added after = publication? I have an open issue for this on github: https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/issues/7 However, I on purpose did not try to address it in the last revision. I = believe having these tags is just part of the consensus process as the = rest of then document as well. As such similarly as for every other = issue that is raised by the IESG, the IESG can block the document until = the issue is addressed. Not sure we really need to say anything = explicitly in the draft? Mirja >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t expect this will be used extensively as I do believe = =E2=80=9Camends" and =E2=80=9Cextents=E2=80=9D covers the most important = cases but it can still be useful (e.g. to connect a suite of = recommendation documents=E2=80=A6?). >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 19. Jul 2021, at 06:54, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 19-Jul-21 16:14, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >>>>>> That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for = example=20 >>>>>> a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" = could have a=20 >>>>>> "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different = from "updates". >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, >>>>=20 >>>> Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be = most consistent with its prominence. >>>=20 >>> Yes, in many cases a citation (and the implied "cited by") is = enough, but "see also" is only intended for occasional use: >>> = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html#sectio= n-3-4 >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Gendispatch mailing list >>> Gendispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Tue Jul 20 06:07:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9AFB3A21BB for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4dx4RVgwG2YZ for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEB5D3A21B6 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [212.68.24.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E0C2F600045; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:06:48 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626786409; bh=qxFMqkEWP1BnmBzmoXm4JGnkXoiMIhPxZXPX086Zhyc=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To; b=DcEaVd2wLh3nbHRv210+162rNP/YEr75wOJ08R6Ya+C2DTmTrUeKJh2eCZhdAkxpJ bJfesm2btaO15qQdvTwQt7HL7QTY2OlqQTmNEDSLUcTxA97Gt+m7HxfCnWyGnjxUNb Wg65mi8GnSAZvd6MxVjn7u1EzyVh7yf40Q25g91Y= From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_05F3B660-52AA-45C4-A4E0-7E23820CE3EC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:06:48 +0300 Cc: dhruv.ietf@gmail.com To: GENDISPATCH List X-MailScanner-ID: E0C2F600045.A2236 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:07:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_05F3B660-52AA-45C4-A4E0-7E23820CE3EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, the SAA team has collected some updates and clarifications around their = purpose and operation, and Dhruv has provided a PR to bcp45bis for them: https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files Would this change be something the community would supportive of? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_05F3B660-52AA-45C4-A4E0-7E23820CE3EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmD2ymgACgkQVLXDCb9w wVd7DBAAmsNrfYx9MLHLFSr4IHhRgrL11QTVa3dYsOMevEVORkB8qs1rx1n5lLBf 3KsRugN/JoKWKC5hqeimhVj44Qizgg45OE3aDCWhYobWsv5a0+mScQLXWIDifUzX G2zhHlUFPqI4MTfFtA/wFXqkm4VKrDfnAIvaD/GcWurno4ppSK4qPp7bAEq9IDUm K4doGBG0oXXq8g4G3E4ph4WcTUfID0K65KCnJzAtF6qRRxfHWlV52U47ICyD4KWX wixFWUnH2qpbEKBkUxCqCz0HgHwM6b6vyHqsweKcK346Nu+CSTi4ywJl7W/Qvsqn GSzOHhh23FiRN6Hpgc0bLPX62e27buO2PwcrUcLyHyf4kpa3WMOyAE2amrAIwhWs UPkNPYaozNpCiD/089OgEv6OdmuMg0dERbjjJYQSTjTd11cFTeMzcCz26KYbjuMA sLLYy2B/j3wG0ls7q9fYphLxGxc7Qv0g6AYPPpewRBthkznhiqBDiNEVy5g19AOB a4muJVu4Oljat+A6RIWoXuplD+yNMbBcZZ4/eUiLdgkMJGP7l4uUFnJnwp5l5VjG WIjfrWe8c9aOE8A0cj6yOvgC/PvCIhRq8hyxf/DGGH9AFzIS4ncCLKnyNIpYg0iW wnMB0HIBHCx2sAgjq3MZE+OzocFp0vDd1j234t+9qmaqPEaVmIY= =M8Q2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_05F3B660-52AA-45C4-A4E0-7E23820CE3EC-- From nobody Tue Jul 20 06:09:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFCAD3A21CE for ; 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boundary="000000000000aa013305c791c96a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:57:38 -0000 --000000000000aa013305c791c96a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Made one comment but generally LGTM On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > Looks good to me. > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000aa013305c791c96a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Made one comment but generally LGTM

On Tue, Jul 20, 202= 1 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files

Looks good to me.

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--000000000000aa013305c791c96a-- From nobody Tue Jul 20 11:09:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31583A2CF7 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mJvWnj8MfKsx for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A0503A2CF5 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4GTmtZ3szKz1nv5s; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626804534; bh=1QsVQVlc4mCESGFF8ztYLv1PCTpwNf6EOUJdEx53cz0=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=YxPIXxyYHBg1p2tw4HALf12hfSGK1aB5shhdC8ro9OyqHeZ+SHnhpnolJBeiyt+xK lfNLap24eAuavcN3Lw+qFLLQH687egkOINENh8HjWI32K8zx0TLw0Gr7jaPhgg1GBa +JsvUFg+ifcVhR4k0pKIJ3MV2iyFAmg3mO+ALq50= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GTmtY4Vnsz1nsGQ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:08:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 18:09:00 -0000 And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope into moving discussions to github. To which I have a strong and repeatedly stated objection. The particular change EKR proposes is fine. I think it may even be a good idea. It could also have been easily captured in an email to the list. And since it is actually a matter of policy more than wording, in my opinion should have been sent to the list. Yours, Joel On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Made one comment but generally LGTM > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > > > wrote: > > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > > Looks good to me. > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > From nobody Tue Jul 20 13:11:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EFA3A3077 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXuDUeSzjMnS for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22f.google.com (mail-oi1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 365283A3076 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id u15so510138oiw.3 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:11:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TG8x6H8Rd79j1x/UiG8vlmvx/Diky75LH/h2zZXtGds=; b=f24UEYxJrAbXrfrkfd3dnEhtbYHzitYiSjfnD5hmQGT9UBlrYPnJW7HCs0fkCkXzmT Tm5RseIhWJbGZU3IFu4WTNoSAKMt9MUy4IK+KKkkUEkzM9IWFWFG69IwHt5kg3dmJKbi oSJyoat0fVC555SwB6CWeAm9KpXGdbOJr7+0PHFQzTOe0076BPAYl94gqqq9RqzVshFr 2ruyusIdOpzd1GycOp2Z2VPkI3ih3iqvROLlMKVSxSr3WdMbm/vfwuE0Hc9tcnhGJcp5 Yhu65LCDATS5kKheDipIsd7xl15uIOPfLSyuiZmx22u4AP2DbswbyFh5A75FVhslmpvb ygjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TG8x6H8Rd79j1x/UiG8vlmvx/Diky75LH/h2zZXtGds=; b=cHEE5z2HIiB7ssr548Z3wK0SN28xs4cnZbPgsPGHUyGrGJihF+CParQ6Yffg/LDtSX iJIrB0eUHxqELDqkJi97xLWTuYATDBXhFlMVho/VastkM9mSZjZeC51tqDYxeCzUW9LG gPjsBkqoSYG/3/Bm7Dauj+uheLeFKN1zO/R37iBbP4yzpYcQHEL2og4bkvqvRsKcBHdq Jzk/dEjKYDd2w26v4dcZYGqyBrqqC0Zl1O1CprrRsceDE11RXu8OnvEK0xMXJA1QGdNE 0g1DbWHT3R0D+xfN0rVYJeTFlvBI1cV2IBlH9aTnmixBeDzJF2ixc2565XlEF69l8NhI Tfjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533JQmGZERlblV3GSnNcEiFPOLZu7dgb6EkIaLdzzpQAXEGhzxsW 1E5Q/ilg9QOyDr7U2URXXJkL/ID/Tc4KS7geKag= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxXFaSSbxFAc8qLeEsk9LSClGKcW3QifFenJb/+IegSdLion5soYiOFXWgDmt+LYe7NFe/F47zBC+fGA6BS/k8= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b9c6:: with SMTP id j189mr22841523oif.114.1626811888709; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:11:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mary Barnes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 15:11:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Eric Rescorla , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be354b05c793a835" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:11:36 -0000 --000000000000be354b05c793a835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +1 to Joel's comments on using github for discussion rather than the mailing list. On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:09 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope > into moving discussions to github. To which I have a strong and > repeatedly stated objection. > > The particular change EKR proposes is fine. I think it may even be a > good idea. It could also have been easily captured in an email to the > list. And since it is actually a matter of policy more than wording, in > my opinion should have been sent to the list. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Made one comment but generally LGTM > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > > > > > Looks good to me. > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000be354b05c793a835 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 to Joel's comments on using github for discussion r= ather than the mailing list.

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:09 PM Joel M. Hal= pern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:
And this= is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope
into moving discussions to github.=C2=A0 To which I have a strong and
repeatedly stated objection.

The particular change EKR proposes is fine.=C2=A0 I think it may even be a =
good idea.=C2=A0 It could also have been easily captured in an email to the=
list.=C2=A0 And since it is actually a matter of policy more than wording, = in
my opinion should have been sent to the list.

Yours,
Joel

On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Made one comment but generally LGTM
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich
> <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= >
> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://github.com/= larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looks good to me.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>
>

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--000000000000be354b05c793a835-- From nobody Tue Jul 20 13:21:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B09A3A30D6 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9lt8a0VSYBoI for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A69EE3A30D2 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id b14so411341ilf.7 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:20:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xdr4ZA2YDB+QgO1HqldOc67gveteEsutjq03c8I5xhE=; b=MyRrFPVV0BYty87p8cFY6nk7fr3NrbYkoAE6suECkFeJN8Mqq2M8mK9kj6bjeyiluN 5bGCqqJ0Nh4/YmrOMeU3v2nc1B9aQt0asWqJKtjayDmHVrLCTMJ4f0QfRLIyi5hHj7X9 pQ0+MWG/pekBaj4V5yuCj1tYV+D5wMj3WKCoZXn2ogFmpBNnwXxOWExE3m6j6zAtU9eV 5oaigdh7psD9Ig5vgUb1fr1OJY/CtmA/K3TYnuE8U0aezHM51bCEqkk/QRtjXaNooWYs B7OX+g6enZNMekus3VPmSyuw8TN8WQA737l0uklYDIQMhI7eI2izso+6iNMSP/9Pcb/V BbBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xdr4ZA2YDB+QgO1HqldOc67gveteEsutjq03c8I5xhE=; b=ZFIqKsPWS9wsr2ygoLzsoc0mS6pHbZE+6+nOikCjFkyg6Kmjt43ZKKn3wJ1wxlJ6k2 2foIdkxQ1K+DS13CA7xoN/KwbdZxoMHpRR90pA/RnzX6QeQyGjSBk/YyNGKhjFkYuEbN riuJmY88hF6MnwGCRvC20COoUy9QL/08/plbBKxv5VRdYdT0whVB38eASJoeEsk/YqMU fldZAktahQBKsLqEk5JqnydV1auAo3acw68fYBOfyULvH/+CPYyDTKOEcPMaq3Sqigu3 3+5Rfed6t6W4cyKcpaUiJsobGrSLwQAaGIIzS1uzPHgfLG+O9YefJFctVY6Inuymrmcf oWyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532C+HEWHMysE7Qcro+2SGXlDTS0IZnheQqXSrwtzQt/26JMFHQz d+ye60ei1GfVlRfKK9zNlRLLRiJvP9flR0bCtgGw3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzQqLdNPs6T8MIIernSsgJBi2zBS/s/plWKQGG/v05Gb/ekmtQPLY0PLlxxyVacOmQzsT+s0xuGcy3sI+RufqU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cf0c:: with SMTP id c12mr21478528ilo.56.1626812454401; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000760b0a05c793ca3b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:21:01 -0000 --000000000000760b0a05c793ca3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope > into moving discussions to github. To which I have a strong and > repeatedly stated objection. > > The particular change EKR proposes is fine. I think it may even be a > good idea. It could also have been easily captured in an email to the > list. And since it is actually a matter of policy more than wording, in > my opinion should have been sent to the list. > I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of Github, but in this particular case, ISTM that: 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? -Ekr > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Made one comment but generally LGTM > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > > > > > Looks good to me. > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000760b0a05c793ca3b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel= M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com<= /a>> wrote:
A= nd this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope
into moving discussions to github.=C2=A0 To which I have a strong and
repeatedly stated objection.

The particular change EKR proposes is fine.=C2=A0 I think it may even be a =
good idea.=C2=A0 It could also have been easily captured in an email to the=
list.=C2=A0 And since it is actually a matter of policy more than wording, = in
my opinion should have been sent to the list.

Yours,
Joel

On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> Made one comment but generally LGTM
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich
> <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= >
> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://github.com/= larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looks good to me.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>
>

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Halpern" Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:28:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wlBn03FGIQKXFCGspE7hqR2LjN0BDhs1o" X-ClientProxiedBy: DBBPR09CA0018.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:c0::30) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [IPv6:2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9834:f873:26c9:1b71] (2001:bb6:5e5e:b458:9834:f873:26c9:1b71) by DBBPR09CA0018.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:c0::30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4331.21 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:28:23 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 7bf864aa-919c-4c12-92f3-08d94bbcec2a X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0202MB2968: X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:972; 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boundary="Jx6WSz6vH8Cxr3SF5UOUZfKxnqpgiupOb"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: --Jx6WSz6vH8Cxr3SF5UOUZfKxnqpgiupOb Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3C122DAAE3670E7557BE1225" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3C122DAAE3670E7557BE1225 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FWIW, I'm not a fan of using github instead of mailing list discussion, (mostly because of how it works best for sets of people in nearby TZ's with v. similar workflows, and v. badly for others not in such a set)... but... On 20/07/2021 21:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? I agree with ekr on this one. There is an I-D, there's a PR for the GH version of that on which ekr made a comment. If accepted, those changes (which seem uncontroversial to me) will be in a revised I-D, there's no real rush to get this right and changing later will be fine. 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([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j15sm24443110pfh.194.2021.07.20.13.35.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:35:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:35:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:36:00 -0000 On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >=20 > And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slop= e > into moving discussions to github.=C2=A0 To which I have a strong a= nd > repeatedly stated objection. >=20 > The particular change EKR proposes is fine.=C2=A0 I think it may ev= en be a > good idea.=C2=A0 It could also have been easily captured in an emai= l to the > list.=C2=A0 And since it is actually a matter of policy more than w= ording, in > my opinion should have been sent to the list. >=20 >=20 > I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of Github, b= ut in this > particular case, ISTM that: >=20 > 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) > 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. >=20 > So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? As long as it doesn't subvert the final text being exposed to the list, I don't think it matters too much. fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR's amendment. otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and I don't think we really need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document. Brian >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Made one comment but generally LGTM > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > > >> > > wrote: > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull= /1/files > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looks good to me. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch mailing list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch@ietf.org > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > > > > >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 20 13:58:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ABC3A31ED for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eMTgcdDXD2E6 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88D5D3A31EF for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4GTrfZ71lCz1nsgB; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626814726; bh=hv9zu3cM9p9H4icQNAm7ft4WSI6KsdkEI8/INLm1xQM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=cxWH/kbl5hAfSF1TLubzMsVlDyMh8Pc1zs0fKMq1osEQTnNY27gANnJTc0KsmbBO6 VGqdSLMdI0s35tp6EHICpx69aHYMcsPGAKFKQpqJmSKNo5rmCOaDVJGP8lw7O2HGlL E/HN1wdap8ycZos/egKnVly2qlsWikpqFo72FD6U= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GTrfZ1nnSz1nsLV; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <6bb38185-e34f-f68e-adf2-184045503a8b@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:58:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 20:58:52 -0000 I considered objecting to the posting of the proposed change only on github, but then expecting the WG to pay attention to it. (Using github for a group of editors working together on a private draft is clearly within the rules.) I did not want to do so, because there is a tension between clarity of editorial change and making sure content is on the list. But if you are going to use the original posting beign on github as a reason for the comments to be there, then I guess you force me to object to that. Yours, Joel On 7/20/2021 4:20 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope > into moving discussions to github.  To which I have a strong and > repeatedly stated objection. > > The particular change EKR proposes is fine.  I think it may even be a > good idea.  It could also have been easily captured in an email to the > list.  And since it is actually a matter of policy more than > wording, in > my opinion should have been sent to the list. > > > I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of Github, > but in this > particular case, ISTM that: > > 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) > 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. > > So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? > > -Ekr > > > > > > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Made one comment but generally LGTM > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > > > >> > > wrote: > > > >      > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > >      > > > > >     Looks good to me. > > > >     -- > >     Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > >      > > > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > From nobody Tue Jul 20 14:08:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CF23A3235 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldnakihf2mgH for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 338E83A3236 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4GTrsp5mbPz1nsP7; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626815310; bh=QjtJTWVDEhABOdVbWzXxFtkkEU8WWEK+qP64MYEfmk4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UqPJSmv6W8ETEOnyZrrpjJSB7EAPWQ2gqwwTHgZ7IgYUWs+ALXQFp2QdlbWcd8vtG K0/brhT0+C+Rctx5CaEBp9x2PNJKhzKRnJWIOIXDTXI/ENbSr3llNjcUZ6uzVZDEmo 90o3D9/knmlJCWJGiddnWxWheHWKtxZU/wWGqQRs= X-Quarantine-ID: <2LdlGl_InK69> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GTrsp09C5z1ns5y; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla Cc: "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:08:29 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:08:36 -0000 Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the WG email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. I will grant that it is still an individual draft. But then... 1) almsot by definition gendispatch drafts tend to be fuzzy on that, as gendispatch will choose as a WG how to dispatch that individual draft. 2) The draft is from the IETF chair. It is almost impossible for the IETF chair to actual have an unofficial draft. By virtual of his writing it, it has more standing. (Which is why frequently IETF chairs ask other people to write drafts, so as to keep roles clean.) Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is important that comments be on the list. The fact that EKR and Lars would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. Yours, Joel On 7/20/2021 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >> >> And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the slope >> into moving discussions to github.  To which I have a strong and >> repeatedly stated objection. >> >> The particular change EKR proposes is fine.  I think it may even be a >> good idea.  It could also have been easily captured in an email to the >> list.  And since it is actually a matter of policy more than wording, in >> my opinion should have been sent to the list. >> >> >> I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of Github, but in this >> particular case, ISTM that: >> >> 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) >> 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. >> >> So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? > > As long as it doesn't subvert the final text being exposed to the > list, I don't think it matters too much. > > fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR's amendment. > > otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and I don't think we really > need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document. > > Brian > >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > Made one comment but generally LGTM >> > >> > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich >> > >> >> > wrote: >> > >> >      > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files >> >     > >> > >> >     Looks good to me. >> > >> >     -- >> >     Gendispatch mailing list >> >     Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >     > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >> > From nobody Tue Jul 20 14:13:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D333A325A for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WgU25NSOZ0ov for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E59213A3258 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id r18so62029iot.4 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:13:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4ZlNtgEdOkMsUETt628FUh//N9wv4WQaXfou3EBCzLs=; b=jMpagmXsC+vLM9VFomb57MMzZze+RPy6b3kiZFkoh8+ztrIVQ5riScnmeRHkRL0O1S XX75sS1I4sCoN6HowGghLxT1Se3G6Ro+Fu6kLG+gUWBVwxEFRv5n4bSjd+fo/Coc+GwW WBib5+l0FwP50wOXX4vHozzDpygWH+p+2ugjc+KRmRSns0h4ZebPK9kns463nd3vMrSf 8XgWbd4iKCkj6lx5GPM6x9duY1Hf2ytNKI0eqrPEY9X9OAoZ94l9efIr1VvqLaxoQQyH 2qj21Hqd7oxrJrZEo5XelxWFeHCacerb3cmHqhGCLE4EDGojaWGYjADnASV9sOJW5TfK wG0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4ZlNtgEdOkMsUETt628FUh//N9wv4WQaXfou3EBCzLs=; b=GI3VWc4UcYBUkh645MJqH4iMnP7AXXOitN1++o5GyafwicwbYHg/CdRXljX2lvNc+Y /sOm3bbC9tXxhCfXgqshaqmqzzqE4ZtadFkRsxvY8kyh1XObZB340Rg5UV1LAGgRxbju vvoIzhzpo8VlceuAkzwuHrcFUmS3Sewtb+PYi33qHlfQB3MbDJVY634gLbxNRGUpLrci hhoK2+dHph2hApU862DnYijs/YAFMVHuZggG5U6JbDSHknb0kXfUPY+7IMcGtPrr0ta6 YHEolC3QGPKM5G8vPI/tWWwIvgyzMSTDSoFZx8WklA8uieohB+u01KkN+/6IptMdGsYK OpnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Tdjg8nHB8jcjAGMpk0ZkloqfWGiWCl+WIiPG1KEFjH88bHv0u uLsgiJvg5qOn2d7gU1uQlv3YiYv9rv5CCEajIvRMmw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnn0MIIuUgICLxi3IgonTQmG1pSnWBwLh15FoLl+4oDRJfDMdlU9Xq3jE+ReGtQmZMlb5mQJKTgZ7B86Clrq8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8511:: with SMTP id q17mr25002054ion.98.1626815603869; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:13:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:12:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002f204a05c7948688" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:13:30 -0000 --0000000000002f204a05c7948688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" At the risk of just boring everyone... Suppose I had just emailed Lars privately with my comments. Would you object to that? -Ekr On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the WG > email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. > I will grant that it is still an individual draft. But then... > 1) almsot by definition gendispatch drafts tend to be fuzzy on that, as > gendispatch will choose as a WG how to dispatch that individual draft. > 2) The draft is from the IETF chair. It is almost impossible for the > IETF chair to actual have an unofficial draft. By virtual of his > writing it, it has more standing. (Which is why frequently IETF chairs > ask other people to write drafts, so as to keep roles clean.) > > Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is > important that comments be on the list. The fact that EKR and Lars > would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2021 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > >> > >> And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down the > slope > >> into moving discussions to github. To which I have a strong and > >> repeatedly stated objection. > >> > >> The particular change EKR proposes is fine. I think it may even > be a > >> good idea. It could also have been easily captured in an email to > the > >> list. And since it is actually a matter of policy more than > wording, in > >> my opinion should have been sent to the list. > >> > >> > >> I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of Github, > but in this > >> particular case, ISTM that: > >> > >> 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) > >> 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. > >> > >> So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? > > > > As long as it doesn't subvert the final text being exposed to the > > list, I don't think it matters too much. > > > > fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR's amendment. > > > > otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and I don't think we really > > need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document. > > > > Brian > > > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > Made one comment but generally LGTM > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > >> > 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files < > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files> > >> > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>> > >> > > >> > Looks good to me. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Gendispatch mailing list > >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org Gendispatch@ietf.org > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch> > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> Gendispatch mailing list > >> Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch < > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch> > >> > >> > > > --0000000000002f204a05c7948688 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the risk of just boring everyone...

=
Suppose I had just emailed Lars privately with my comments. Woul= d you object to that?

-Ekr


On = Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Given that the draft was posted, and comme= nts were requestedd on the WG
email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list.
I will grant that it is still an individual draft.=C2=A0 But then...
1) almsot by definition gendispatch drafts tend to be fuzzy on that, as gendispatch will choose as a WG how to dispatch that individual draft.
2) The draft is from the IETF chair.=C2=A0 It is almost impossible for the =
IETF chair to actual have an unofficial draft.=C2=A0 By virtual of his
writing it, it has more standing.=C2=A0 (Which is why frequently IETF chair= s
ask other people to write drafts, so as to keep roles clean.)

Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is
important that comments be on the list.=C2=A0 The fact that EKR and Lars would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that.

Yours,
Joel

On 7/20/2021 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mai= lto:jmh@joelhalper= n.com>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 And this is where I start to feel like we are = falling down the slope
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 into moving discussions to github.=C2=A0 To wh= ich I have a strong and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 repeatedly stated objection.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The particular change EKR proposes is fine.=C2= =A0 I think it may even be a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 good idea.=C2=A0 It could also have been easil= y captured in an email to the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 list.=C2=A0 And since it is actually a matter = of policy more than wording, in
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 my opinion should have been sent to the list.<= br> >>
>>
>> I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of = Github, but in this
>> particular case, ISTM that:
>>
>> 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair)
>> 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list.
>>
>> So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments?
>
> As long as it doesn't subvert the final text being exposed to the<= br> > list, I don't think it matters too much.
>
> fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR's amendment.
>
> otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and I don't think we real= ly
> need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yours,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Joel
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Made one comment but generally LGTM
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Ric= h
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mai= lto:40akam= ai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> <mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:<= a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40akamai.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org>>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > wrote:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files <https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files<= /a>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files <https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files&= gt;>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looks good to me.
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch mailing li= st
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org= > <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>><= br> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gendispatch mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/gendispatch <https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>>
>>
>
--0000000000002f204a05c7948688-- From nobody Tue Jul 20 14:18:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022A93A3279 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:18:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fJwBLQy-ETq2 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1A23A3277 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4GTs4r3MpFz1nsP7; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:18:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626815884; bh=mBTKM0+tVB+vI8m2JHMprY2DRgGWVSG6u1mpNj66TYM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=aaa9FkUTrh2+mLf1u3UUxD0rPCh+HshvOFfnFIzFqJdVWT4jnYXpmAItq1lo+CAtt Cpn1EsTY0ZKdb0uAXVS/ESO/tk6E58XuUi3C7bsHJYLC/kP5FbsVZPmO4Qo2u97mEy gx4Cx7Ga9lAOgjiMv1wAi4rJGK/Oj+AoKUlj6tcE= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GTs4q4pJ9z1nsSc; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:18:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <1b127768-ac9e-7409-40b4-9e1077943031@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 17:18:02 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:18:11 -0000 Given that the author requested discussion on the list, I would have assumed that on-list followup of substantive issues (and for all I agree with ti, this is substantive) would be on list. In other working groups with a cleaner distinction between adopted and not-yet-adotped, and with other authors, I probably would have kept quiet even if I was surprised. In this case, the sequence of events looks liek sliding down an unfortuante slope. Yours, Joel PS: In case it is unclear, I am not attributing any malign or devious intent to you EKR. You did this in the way that seemed obvious and simple to you. On 7/20/2021 5:12 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > At the risk of just boring everyone... > > Suppose I had just emailed Lars privately with my comments. Would you > object to that? > > -Ekr > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the WG > email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. > I will grant that it is still an individual draft.  But then... > 1) almsot by definition gendispatch drafts tend to be fuzzy on that, as > gendispatch will choose as a WG how to dispatch that individual draft. > 2) The draft is from the IETF chair.  It is almost impossible for the > IETF chair to actual have an unofficial draft.  By virtual of his > writing it, it has more standing.  (Which is why frequently IETF chairs > ask other people to write drafts, so as to keep roles clean.) > > Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is > important that comments be on the list.  The fact that EKR and Lars > would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2021 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern > > >> wrote: > >> > >>      And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down > the slope > >>      into moving discussions to github.  To which I have a > strong and > >>      repeatedly stated objection. > >> > >>      The particular change EKR proposes is fine.  I think it may > even be a > >>      good idea.  It could also have been easily captured in an > email to the > >>      list.  And since it is actually a matter of policy more > than wording, in > >>      my opinion should have been sent to the list. > >> > >> > >> I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of > Github, but in this > >> particular case, ISTM that: > >> > >> 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) > >> 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. > >> > >> So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? > > > > As long as it doesn't subvert the final text being exposed to the > > list, I don't think it matters too much. > > > > fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR's amendment. > > > > otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and I don't think we really > > need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document. > > > >     Brian > > > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>      Yours, > >>      Joel > >> > >>      On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>      > Made one comment but generally LGTM > >>      > > >>      > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > >>      > > > > > >>> > >>      > wrote: > >>      > > >>      >      > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > > > >>      >      > >> > >>      > > >>      >     Looks good to me. > >>      > > >>      >     -- > >>      >     Gendispatch mailing list > >>      > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > > > >> > >>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > >>      >      > >> > >>      > > >>      > > >> > >>      -- > >>      Gendispatch mailing list > >> Gendispatch@ietf.org > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > >> > >> > > > From nobody Tue Jul 20 14:20:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0143A32AC for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t55YvWBBJofk for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CCD33A32A6 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id l5so62066iok.7 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qiczf2jBI8MjC4M6XvzaJPQWT7eQ7oCK+DK3W6BtBuA=; b=abORWeWBcWrGwtgZdY3HWAdLxCSAUK58MVjqJIwmc0WWwI4rCKxcsEl/y0m2e6lPcd CEAas+jZujdcMCZgX1ZXmcEbBF0VAmNxSSez4EMMaiRkvpu4luk4XU4cf6frECXIrl4O Lre8MTLPRB1YCggo5fgswmTJkgy7LvhHgWt9y/qeVlNlbLPi3/Hdq4O+eqQ2IxyATYeU BKH3Ekh6msDnvjaN2JTR4KzinEsrHCIgfCmAtyc1S8hfMw+h5dkTtvVajAaMHAs3qc0t 8axDb4P7lAA0lVMbx7qcXQ56XxNW6XY4LbLB40aGjj9WY5UCu9FuYDIjvL8tYww+SEU7 QrqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qiczf2jBI8MjC4M6XvzaJPQWT7eQ7oCK+DK3W6BtBuA=; b=Jiw3ZyTuJH8CSj/p+Ubg/f16uZz0Ym5iaydJdifJZq4wRZMgperZP9KEuJ/x+vZ08o CVz4Dpr4Wft1gb4qlpbpOl1o0b9RNCaHcvGZucjiAQE2t7LjFzCd/373dluC/jFxUSc8 LvauWKoHL7jQk+cRi4OdCvpaNjTgSnROzfq6luOfDNYQrzCIpqEXzzKiJP0BHYpe16pv VckPY8APRaTdIufUatzNItzVbSHQePdzrMLuqLJFb2DQXtsaRgSmTwKsQNbAO/R5adaq 9B+nEEulQDuP3n5mlPv1PVKAs7j/Z8RAQkQCzBhkBfwqp58cd6Y67REa8gSv3yKeTs1/ Y+nA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vdXo2ePr6m6P8BgM/ZvGVddpH1jML3Hx5Hdhu7gCH+lCmWmQQ U66LU2DmhvBqamTRmKHKuF4g4T1kVEq0uYvJN6vpuw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDylLGUJ5HGH3ZamMe6zzAwpTuGjvmnR08UZb1sm7DOeBXjOfS5311OZaitOBYxUzbHaVBna1vEc4tHw+Z38A= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:8d16:: with SMTP id m22mr772051ioj.60.1626816007304; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:20:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <1b127768-ac9e-7409-40b4-9e1077943031@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <1b127768-ac9e-7409-40b4-9e1077943031@joelhalpern.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:19:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b12c905c7949e73" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:20:15 -0000 --0000000000003b12c905c7949e73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:18 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Given that the author requested discussion on the list, I would have > assumed that on-list followup of substantive issues (and for all I agree > with ti, this is substantive) would be on list. > > In other working groups with a cleaner distinction between adopted and > not-yet-adotped, and with other authors, I probably would have kept > quiet even if I was surprised. > > In this case, the sequence of events looks liek sliding down an > unfortuante slope. > > Yours, > Joel > > PS: In case it is unclear, I am not attributing any malign or devious > intent to you EKR. You did this in the way that seemed obvious and > simple to you. > Thank you for clarifying this. I appreciate it and FWIW I had not gotten the impression that you were implying that. -Ekr > On 7/20/2021 5:12 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > At the risk of just boring everyone... > > > > Suppose I had just emailed Lars privately with my comments. Would you > > object to that? > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the > WG > > email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. > > I will grant that it is still an individual draft. But then... > > 1) almsot by definition gendispatch drafts tend to be fuzzy on that, > as > > gendispatch will choose as a WG how to dispatch that individual > draft. > > 2) The draft is from the IETF chair. It is almost impossible for the > > IETF chair to actual have an unofficial draft. By virtual of his > > writing it, it has more standing. (Which is why frequently IETF > chairs > > ask other people to write drafts, so as to keep roles clean.) > > > > Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is > > important that comments be on the list. The fact that EKR and Lars > > would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 7/20/2021 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. Halpern > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> And this is where I start to feel like we are falling down > > the slope > > >> into moving discussions to github. To which I have a > > strong and > > >> repeatedly stated objection. > > >> > > >> The particular change EKR proposes is fine. I think it may > > even be a > > >> good idea. It could also have been easily captured in an > > email to the > > >> list. And since it is actually a matter of policy more > > than wording, in > > >> my opinion should have been sent to the list. > > >> > > >> > > >> I feel like we've all got pretty fixed opinions on the use of > > Github, but in this > > >> particular case, ISTM that: > > >> > > >> 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by the IETF chair) > > >> 2. The proposed text was on Github not the list. > > >> > > >> So isn't it kind of a personal choice how I make comments? > > > > > > As long as it doesn't subvert the final text being exposed to the > > > list, I don't think it matters too much. > > > > > > fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR's amendment. > > > > > > otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and I don't think we really > > > need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > >> > > >> -Ekr > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Yours, > > >> Joel > > >> > > >> On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > >> > Made one comment but generally LGTM > > >> > > > >> > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Looks good to me. > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Gendispatch mailing list > > >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > > > > > > >> > > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Gendispatch mailing list > > >> Gendispatch@ietf.org > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > --0000000000003b12c905c7949e73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:18 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Gi= ven that the author requested discussion on the list, I would have
assumed that on-list followup of substantive issues (and for all I agree with ti, this is substantive) would be on list.

In other working groups with a cleaner distinction between adopted and
not-yet-adotped, and with other authors, I probably would have kept
quiet even if I was surprised.

In this case, the sequence of events looks liek sliding down an
unfortuante slope.

Yours,
Joel

PS: In case it is unclear, I am not attributing any malign or devious
intent to you EKR.=C2=A0 You did this in the way that seemed obvious and simple to you.



On 7/20/2021 5:12 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> At the risk of just boring everyone...
>
> Suppose I had just emailed Lars privately with my comments. Would you =
> object to that?
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that the draft was posted, and comments were = requestedd on the WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0email list, I expect folks to provide comments on t= he WG email list.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I will grant that it is still an individual draft.= =C2=A0 But then...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01) almsot by definition gendispatch drafts tend to = be fuzzy on that, as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gendispatch will choose as a WG how to dispatch tha= t individual draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02) The draft is from the IETF chair.=C2=A0 It is al= most impossible for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF chair to actual have an unofficial draft.=C2= =A0 By virtual of his
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0writing it, it has more standing.=C2=A0 (Which is w= hy frequently IETF chairs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ask other people to write drafts, so as to keep rol= es clean.)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this was an edge case in terms of standi= ng, I think it is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0important that comments be on the list.=C2=A0 The f= act that EKR and Lars
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't c= hange that.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 7/20/2021 4:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 21-Jul-21 08:20, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:09 AM Joel M. = Halpern
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> wrote= :
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 And this is where I s= tart to feel like we are falling down
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the slope
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 into moving discussio= ns to github.=C2=A0 To which I have a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0strong and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 repeatedly stated obj= ection.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The particular change= EKR proposes is fine.=C2=A0 I think it may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even be a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 good idea.=C2=A0 It c= ould also have been easily captured in an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0email to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 list.=C2=A0 And since= it is actually a matter of policy more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than wording, in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 my opinion should hav= e been sent to the list.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I feel like we've all got pretty fixe= d opinions on the use of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Github, but in this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> particular case, ISTM that:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> 1. This is a personal draft (albeit by th= e IETF chair)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> 2. The proposed text was on Github not th= e list.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> So isn't it kind of a personal choice= how I make comments?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > As long as it doesn't subvert the final t= ext being exposed to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > list, I don't think it matters too much.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > fwiw I am happy with the proposal and EKR'= ;s amendment.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > otoh, the draft doesn't cite RFC2119 and = I don't think we really
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > need SHOUTY NORMATIVE words in this document.=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> -Ekr
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 7/20/2021 1:56 PM,= Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Made one comment= but generally LGTM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Tue, Jul 20, = 2021 at 6:09 AM Salz, Rich
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@d= marc.ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://github.com/larseg= gert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0<https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pu= ll/1/files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://github.com/la= rseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Looks good to me.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Gendispatch mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Gendispatch@ietf.org <mail= to:Gendispatch@ie= tf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendis= patch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gendispatch mailing l= ist
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org <mailto:Gendispatch@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/gendispatch>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>
--0000000000003b12c905c7949e73-- From nobody Tue Jul 20 16:17:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC913A3623 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=l5qxpLjt; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=PlH8JgUw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XlsuR0-MjdFI for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A5163A361E for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA755C0113; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 19:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 20 Jul 2021 19:17:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=v cBl1Hn6eMY5PUhgBjOI3QUyjCxcoL1h43jhISgBQi4=; b=l5qxpLjtSRrPM9Ei5 yeNkp5Wff4j4GwPj1CG8IK+hNhs5LkyThybvunw5NX7JHtsKBGYN3Ck2bZMiaLvf ev8+KciO8/EapBpJJ3rFvEeI4dJ44SeRD8UOK/bnw4+LM4xwK+wUszqV51GDycat HEted2gsWU5kgu0BzvAkbv4QWMATQReyHYfOR6XYphwpd3BCqYX7FCxoflZTCZZx UdVMpfA8OkGd+S9w1XnQPb4UWBg5IJc+XZAcHKRE+zSWx4JxcdtrJiyBuCBeAVUX kuS7JhNhixCKwBJ+WzfxWtmHOPdpBR4xNrDbrjn1uNgBw5i4rEA5xWF889xZv4an 8ug9g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=vcBl1Hn6eMY5PUhgBjOI3QUyjCxcoL1h43jhISgBQ i4=; b=PlH8JgUwXCThWRX2r2hDQ0rcUUWAmetQZB5/aFBAVjgSeWC7rCjy+E/KR ezRCeL7BwNKX2rIl14UylAlh9sTkjRd8CytsGRUbKLWr0h6FhAhjBPh0hJf8UEe8 vJ4qIVQdwwTS4gjVHfTOwjuzSaP/uYJIcB2SDg3uhjCHdgDcH0si5wz5bAYLHy1m IrnnJ7dXVxyfH+Es7F2ueGCi3l8KOhYbHbtRYZdd61vBKS2OBltKznksPVxI9+yE QXPZbJYwG5C0L+9FGuxglRS9dArcSWv5v//20Pe5c4karQttlBYHI3/RwPCK6icm 5EId2L0Eq2dhDaznYM0CZK+++ssHQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrfeefgdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvg hrnhepieelgfehgffgueeiuedtgeeiiedvleffudelgfeivdethfekvdelveekhfekteev necuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnh gvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehm nhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 19:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:17:01 +1000 Cc: GENDISPATCH List , dhruv.ietf@gmail.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2021 23:17:13 -0000 Overall, looks good; I left a comment/question. > On 20 Jul 2021, at 11:06 pm, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > the SAA team has collected some updates and clarifications around = their purpose and operation, and Dhruv has provided a PR to bcp45bis for = them: >=20 > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files >=20 > Would this change be something the community would supportive of? >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Jul 21 00:54:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8F83A08B9 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 00:54:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9a_TTlq9EEev for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 00:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EEF03A08A7 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 00:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [212.68.24.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA2A760033B; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:54:25 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626854065; bh=8Igqf7OHYVVMOQek8u0+qkuVQvNoPilm/ZxWG+RDCzc=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=pZOkYMIgJt7K/7qeluOaCdSZ1UwUNZj4U5vxFvtraKIY4g/4BYnIFLlPkO3EDDFm9 rbdinCN1NKMVmVmuR+VIxZiAQmtgN6/V8yEKhbcfvA9u0UjDbq2aSqva87OwtQkE85 6hkB0JFPIwhjoMfnMIYVSaZDvkmi3H2vxhfdGRU0= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EBB9FF99-36D4-47CE-B7A8-24B8609E876D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:54:25 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , GENDISPATCH List To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> X-MailScanner-ID: CA2A760033B.A3FD9 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:54:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EBB9FF99-36D4-47CE-B7A8-24B8609E876D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-7-21, at 0:08, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is = important that comments be on the list. The fact that EKR and Lars = would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. I posted a link to the GitHub PR when asking for feedback, because that = was the easiest way for me to present the proposed changes, and in a = form that is IMO very clear and lets those that feel inclined to do so = provide suggestions in a form that is very easy for me to merge without = messing something up. Nowhere did I say that I preferred discussion on GitHub over discussions = on the list, or that I wouldn't incorporate suggestions made on the = list? I'll note that it is common practice to include links to document = content in emails, instead of the text itself - for example, I-D = announcements don't include the text of an I-D but a pointer to it. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_EBB9FF99-36D4-47CE-B7A8-24B8609E876D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmD30rEACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeZBA//WAqpaOn7I3wUaukkq8ozqnl5HHomC2k0wwdaNDTMj1PsBBFWmQTDz6hv GgrRp6R1wtkrLPGi5P1I+E3BFiV6DlCOXiPAzFtpbC0IePHSQZ+PA0IqZiXsIGGv lTyJWu2yV81g83b77c7K8xKnoV9EVVcLy1R5D+IdX+nHGOw7xwzPh1ggs1NgWbTb qg2lGnCXXUy5bItUTWpkXPAiemdnova/Wrjho/IoV7/uztppG8dFpLCwplL2ioOt zMqXfUVyhmRriUy8fnkdRxfljjStlBoEBtc7BmsfhwXt7UoCNsBGrU0/smrzYR/w kQIjeorZ1Jmdz6DhkMUbl5vKsloKxp17ULSTuM0otVWmpIwdGbNi0NJG6GS6I0Qk lBrQAZ9nOB/mOKqEEcRy62VDvENotHeTDCQbf0c3Ym9HSEvABzQcdwBrA1Pt9Hd1 RiFvRtK3FXxGb6a0damGfTHew+vgia+l5FHOOinPQnpMpjNk22hCXjmHwsTiD2Wr 69B4dLK5LDrJGIFgwNfLomIorJ2cOlaOULjZg6cqoufeZfQT/4F1eqtuahT/wjE5 9+G982u/SnD4Szy7BUl97idz0HsmsYZWSk7EmgtJRUrNYEbxEmNeSgQwGxqM1Vhn nPkp8wDqVoo5c9UCru6njfDYEDhuLNhZmBZUIGid+kodsMck0I4= =WKg0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EBB9FF99-36D4-47CE-B7A8-24B8609E876D-- From nobody Wed Jul 21 00:56:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA233A08CE for ; 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Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:55:56 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1626854156; bh=BPjtwwVyiyfq0ZTM0+rem/x36Kwm8+oFch3dm0br/50=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=bAMkLuTwq6JGtMUXTv5dflm8PIGK5dSxYci/yAhyUJcHDECKtI//tCEhThnIW8bt+ hvPvS1ai3CGduRL1iEjWkGHtJtu9hsU3xrRHGNktzabZJ1OMeYOtLJk2KDZu9+AGvw SLI2UaJESK2SMlVoDNknlMnFpXLTroEwXPp4KlrM= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <8940C9EC-3A12-41A0-B8FE-A320C96BEC2D@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_72751572-0211-4BDD-BDB4-FFA65A940EDE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:55:56 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: dhruv.ietf@gmail.com, GENDISPATCH List To: Mark Nottingham References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: C732660033B.A0998 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:56:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_72751572-0211-4BDD-BDB4-FFA65A940EDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, thanks for the suggestions on the list and in GitHub; a version of the = proposed change with those rolled in is at = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_72751572-0211-4BDD-BDB4-FFA65A940EDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmD30wwACgkQVLXDCb9w wVf32xAAhCFWC+u3XzbIfmTzG8zbLrMMoKVtXYssMxfGHbnKpL0w4NISPoPgUe9r d+fbQqsMkeGEdNmlVpmtO593aBdkZPGTyqhC9zLMlnwSV6bwXRye4PnMxx/jOXLM d9R+eraIZnzjjorPgSWhn7tDznu7rUcAhz92F3JXrwXMGCePNC2iKeikrMldCJrk jZQ0TVOvr6AIia2VOKY0bHaguFbihDZ437+lbAh9AkbJljMloczBcbx5QrxPEfZd VEfZZvPaN5AuQssLkZszaqM86YmI/gI2hGZiVnAs16zePlJjKn1aLK4Ymqir186w tgQxIHmJFdSjycDrcMNzRpYqa/ZL5yBItCsQ9loz9sKUbIsJNbq36+ps3LLa/dNy oT59lEmt08EzUp5BEttZLd/yfR/Ba03VCxJCanxjt7mnjZYFEMgM14Z8t8xoD48I 2nkLsd4vZeel5/P7NcQ6/S/KDsmKsrbowVxBUtTvBhnbLOia1T1dZlx162n28ScY kiOuw99krUPn6uOgpl1NtQOA5N+vLpBUlkYb8QA/5d88zYzHlP2Wo1YH1BSwvDAv IzpsAWpXZZw80SvtYsYSD99hi7ZMdlSdEocoo6pCpkFCVbF0B30DUpxPIo6p1Sav 0va1KF5/MRJsLpumzvmQfQ2AWLZqDBwWBxII4JnLOOPeiHrmgWY= =6M6V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_72751572-0211-4BDD-BDB4-FFA65A940EDE-- From nobody Wed Jul 21 05:50:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 064393A14F2 for ; 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Wed, 21 Jul 2021 05:49:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626871796; bh=GYDKT3MtFANzIGaKZsrcS3KiF98OvocnPuVgTfWN02E=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pfj+fLd7caKNPMSv7QImn9P590RhlTiDwBWzdCJh+9lT6Mv1kVQc+wVlguwmuNlwI RkQhzKI0AatJoVALymQzSQrh9B5Y8xbA9Joxr8nRg4bqC67QKM6Z29/AHJDLbt+KmV 3uDCtq34paRR8EJKQP0vzTI5+qBGVbM7EGZKHL+E= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GVFm34PyJz1ns3N; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 05:49:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Lars Eggert Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 08:49:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 12:50:02 -0000 1) I did not object to your initial posting on this topic. I understood the tradeoff you made. My concern is the conclusion other people drew that commenting via the github was the right way to do things. EKR and I have discussed on list his (useful) modification. I was then struck that someone else chose to post a comment on the github rather than on list. That is exactly the slope I am concerned about. 2( Maybe I should have left off the comment about rpeferences. It was based on my observations of other discussions, not on this incident. Sorry if it was out of line. Yours, Joel On 7/21/2021 3:54 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-7-21, at 0:08, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is important that comments be on the list. The fact that EKR and Lars would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. > > I posted a link to the GitHub PR when asking for feedback, because that was the easiest way for me to present the proposed changes, and in a form that is IMO very clear and lets those that feel inclined to do so provide suggestions in a form that is very easy for me to merge without messing something up. > > Nowhere did I say that I preferred discussion on GitHub over discussions on the list, or that I wouldn't incorporate suggestions made on the list? > > I'll note that it is common practice to include links to document content in emails, instead of the text itself - for example, I-D announcements don't include the text of an I-D but a pointer to it. > > Thanks, > Lars > From nobody Wed Jul 21 07:08:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED453A191E for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:08:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JXbbD1CKbXqY for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (br1.CN84in.dnsmgr.net [69.59.192.140]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 103F83A18DA for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id 16LE7t30091708; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ietf@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from ietf@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/Submit) id 16LE7tgx091707; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ietf) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <202107211407.16LE7tgx091707@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: To: Lars Eggert Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:07:55 -0700 (PDT) CC: "Joel M. Halpern" , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Eric Rescorla , GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL121h (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 14:08:06 -0000 > Hi, > > On 2021-7-21, at 0:08, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > Given that this was an edge case in terms of standing, I think it is important that comments be on the list. The fact that EKR and Lars would prefer to see discussions in PR doesn't change that. > > I posted a link to the GitHub PR when asking for feedback, because that was the easiest way for me to present the proposed changes, and in a form that is IMO very clear and lets those that feel inclined to do so provide suggestions in a form that is very easy for me to merge without messing something up. > > Nowhere did I say that I preferred discussion on GitHub over discussions on the list, or that I wouldn't incorporate suggestions made on the list? > > I'll note that it is common practice to include links to document content in emails, instead of the text itself - for example, I-D announcements don't include the text of an I-D but a pointer to it. > > Thanks, > Lars > List, There is a slight difference here in those links, the I-D announcements are to what I shall call an "internal IETF source", while the github, and yes, in many other cases are "external sources". The future of internal sources are well within the control of the IETF, the future of external sources are indeterminate, and at times, when doing historical research of mail threads to understand how a decision or piece of text came about is much easier if the external set of sources is minimus. I do think it is a slippery slope to start using github and pull requests for what was solicited on list discussion. It is trivial to work around, and that would of been to post not just the URL, but also the full text of the pull request to the mailling list. Regards, -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org From nobody Wed Jul 21 15:33:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487963A2CFC for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wm_LlOKCumWZ for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F01E83A2CFA for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id p186so4136745iod.13 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:32:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ido6KRGb3mdxIoB6w+cXak9fBdlknSZwvTNgVzXlohQ=; b=P0N+l/LZx3iBvTfe4SievxCdzy0SKewdRiizDzjixHOWYNl7BBWiCOEy++mvE7qjgk n06A+aVoxY6MVMl/z/gc8tVztRa3DQtEU06qsqh4PkHV89fGyfw5TPuxGZMN9xK69a9A SL3Zg6/TdR6lCkg/3mR3kXGCHrajwZIOKYIF/nN8bDEdoDFAeWkbc0YX4S8p3T7EYkpk zfKauMO4ZQad7mEBEcGz1cRnH4qKczaeP3HbxXuI9vakOME6rrj0s1wLEHPO4f9YDhoW eSN1cH5XOVw1Kh75A/dQ73aRvBSNODQ5sJvyov/+eiYZEwY/xPL93RgU/2sjDOb8nxkZ vJ9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ido6KRGb3mdxIoB6w+cXak9fBdlknSZwvTNgVzXlohQ=; b=t6LYxZLvFifVhzexWmRQktWoJWckMHqzs9Hl+7pT/qeXVbdqnh5hCHALKoPlJqsKmS DmwSD25hsioCL0iGHX9OikDVHQToHRzFS8IpHET8HmDL8h+8drxwpgJPUY1iZW2eXm8k u81hMcoKmeSitpamo9vXsYGq6WP5EEem8P8u3ggrJo9dfwxa7ha1xNz71/lZEq057Es/ 2L2tNg+A4OZw5aW+x30UesY2TbycIXIoQl21E7qnyH6d4REfRxH+PcXVVHaOykMfM9T0 CUT60nrf2glN8vO7CwgCwpQOIUVE5KNjB+SxobutNfULGNQFRgy6aGsd7mu059+n+e0+ LFjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530mjfxr4vXZEegv6NPWr6LZ7AAR1tD4E4Qf88zR5khfsR5+vkHX ORwYE8OrlGDceqRzqlE7qR069H65S6Zgn2TktSRukg2DFS5bBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwr7i4kyjHW6c8zOwXe01QgiL/9yJeryj8lrNUQXaVDLodSOfY44k9yFkf5ImRE6PSYUuG5mORCkCo3MSq5eBU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b24e:: with SMTP id b75mr27305517iof.94.1626906771048; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 15:32:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002bcd0905c7a9c07e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:32:59 -0000 --0000000000002bcd0905c7a9c07e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the WG > email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. > Is there a specific BCP / rule that applies here? I have read RFC 8874. It seems to me that GitHub is quite a bit more transparent than private email, or conversations during in-person IETF meetings, so it doesn't bother me. More generally, pushing back on this stuff seems like trying to fight the ocean. Every organization uses similar tools now. I haven't been working on software as long as some others, but I do remember commenting on patches via email. That era is gone. thanks, Rob --0000000000002bcd0905c7a9c07e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. H= alpern <jmh@joe= lhalpern.com> wrote:
Given that the draft was posted, and comments were r= equestedd on the WG
email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list.

Is there a specific BCP / rule that applies h= ere? I have read RFC 8874.

It seems to me that Git= Hub is quite a bit more transparent than private email, or conversations du= ring in-person IETF meetings, so it doesn't bother me.

More generally, pushing back on this stuff seems like trying to fi= ght the ocean. Every=C2=A0organization uses similar tools now. I haven'= t been working on software as long as some others, but I do remember commen= ting on patches via email. That era is gone.

thank= s,
Rob


--0000000000002bcd0905c7a9c07e-- From nobody Wed Jul 21 16:19:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE693A2E49 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWUP2tf44ZE5 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EBC13A2E47 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4GVWkK3XRqz6G9qD; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626909561; bh=T7UrNe5BFvdwqAwj9Hh1HVOV3Bx+nkbiwahvMEtZHU0=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=l9rWamwtZnilLO4KKUDYYWNmzAK9D5ZjAM5752mpdLWMxxD61doXNS44k2waChjO/ +LWnvMxgZgGoxZpmhOM57BmyPUTEP/fwYilP/cT6PmDkv36Y8WC/flugyC/x68KtLM LzCnRX66FErmkDu7equg311J9mk/CjTfwvNHrMCU= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GVWkJ3T6Jz6G9Vg; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:19:20 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Eric Rescorla , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 19:19:18 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:19:29 -0000 RFC *874 gives working groups the ability to decide, by rough consensus of the group, to make use to various degrees of github. Specifically, until the group decides explicitly that topics are to be discussed on github, discussions for the WG (such as Lars' request for feedback) are supposed (by multiple long standing RFCs) to take place on the WG email list. Someone asked "would it have been different if the suggestion had been by private email"? My answer, as I understand the process, is that either Lars or the proposer would have repeated the suggestion to the list, so that it could be discussed. (Note that the premise here is that the change is substantive, not merely editorial. We give editors the room to make editorial corrections, and to accept them any way they want.) Maybe I am tilting against the inevitable. of course, with the rate of change of tools, by the time it is actually inevitable, something else will be inevitable instead. Yours, Joel PS: I am not of either the camp "this is old and therefore good" or "this is new and therefore better". I am however of the camp that if we want to change our procedures, we should do so by agreement, not by accident. I believe that most of the folks pushing for changes also are trying to be explicit about getting agreement. On 7/21/2021 6:32 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the WG > email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. > > > Is there a specific BCP / rule that applies here? I have read RFC 8874. > > It seems to me that GitHub is quite a bit more transparent than private > email, or conversations during in-person IETF meetings, so it doesn't > bother me. > > More generally, pushing back on this stuff seems like trying to fight > the ocean. Every organization uses similar tools now. I haven't been > working on software as long as some others, but I do remember commenting > on patches via email. That era is gone. > > thanks, > Rob > > From nobody Wed Jul 21 16:46:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A423A2EF9 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ON2L4_V9uEhz for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F5AC3A2EF8 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id g22so4369182iom.1 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:46:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4fhRG0mGjKr5K2NE71vU0+eBY9uYfJ72896Vc0TmXec=; b=C7Llt10OWAxn1pAXwCJKG8qsIykvKk3En0mkLtSM6HEPgdxuukPhQ6+Uxrs2hKkf7x 4yApVhswwsyeQJbOVL3pV1e5gPmi8NzwJlmjhUO2Ld3ojDXWlVS0+yqlYD/qUX5MHB79 NS/w2JBOYtzyQuvgC+LvEPTeLLFutI1CkAz6FKD0bFt8VY/fyz2vwPRodQBKUfyzY18o QQmfc0eBcDiF8if46Ro+3DRGPLlP9LenVjwbw6pJHtFPHOZ1UJOqBHz/C79U53MMVjLT fsdlO+FgiHF4kouA5TnrlLE0r7cwkLVysbyIStjI39ThrNR3uZ+zebxlPME3+X8wRLvg /xtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4fhRG0mGjKr5K2NE71vU0+eBY9uYfJ72896Vc0TmXec=; b=tmI3rc3sF3vvziZvaAknPIZ1psJLtc9U7vQ2pW7cHBcvEx3ud2xnHsspi1/f7bgGS2 2TB8TFMfu8z1yAFyDVw9/64CzyXxxC6PQrK9oXJJdKOJlBBRBkFtJoiWGBpVjuH3dACr J6OB+Egv9vSLm5X0qgfL4BtvkD1f7mU77lKub7nz825in5z4yqMs+m7Y8u9f8dKSKbVo Qua3deAZDehnGskaI4p7Gxvi6zpCR/mD2UxhFIN5E8S/rDod2gwBqhfE1NbU+AlHBjdZ 3MjDQCyG6Mp8L5t2KOOUIGsXQEI0vvyYdXyPgjbiaJSkuaKedd/HpLEoqPGBbkSpA1oH ryDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532z7/XO8Gljlt/uPJiCO+uUoi2aHGMNStlHFs97LgkcSR/Rbp4x 9ZJpDWx1XdBlav6F2Q1E/H8jmU3AXYAUMjJSJ2JTAQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9h5lAkFx1K38g4UBFt9kuAGxMavVB2SbnKFChDNTgInLsp0t4lIjUWi1fjp8Mj8ziuLsnLLUbNXbR/7RlFo0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:338f:: with SMTP id h15mr32997701jav.135.1626911201762; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:46:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 16:46:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Rob Sayre , Brian E Carpenter , "dhruv.ietf@gmail.com" , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000433a8d05c7aac835" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:46:49 -0000 --000000000000433a8d05c7aac835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 4:19 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > RFC *874 gives working groups the ability to decide, by rough consensus > of the group, to make use to various degrees of github. > > Specifically, until the group decides explicitly that topics are to be > discussed on github, discussions for the WG (such as Lars' request for > feedback) are supposed (by multiple long standing RFCs) to take place on > the WG email list. > > Someone asked "would it have been different if the suggestion had been > by private email"? My answer, as I understand the process, is that > either Lars or the proposer would have repeated the suggestion to the > list, so that it could be discussed. I mean, one of us might have. But before GitHub I routinely took proposed changes in email or in private feedback of other kinds and folded them into the next document rev and just informed the WG in some kind of email or presentation summary. More generally, I'm not aware of any IETF rules that say that people need to raise issues on list or that the editors need to take any proposed substantive changes to the list before they are folded into the draft, as opposed to after. If I'm wrong here, can you provide a citation to the relevant RFC? -Ekr (Note that the premise here is > that the change is substantive, not merely editorial. We give editors > the room to make editorial corrections, and to accept them any way they > want.) > > Maybe I am tilting against the inevitable. of course, with the rate of > change of tools, by the time it is actually inevitable, something else > will be inevitable instead. > > Yours, > Joel > > PS: I am not of either the camp "this is old and therefore good" or > "this is new and therefore better". I am however of the camp that if we > want to change our procedures, we should do so by agreement, not by > accident. I believe that most of the folks pushing for changes also are > trying to be explicit about getting agreement. > > On 7/21/2021 6:32 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd on the > WG > > email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG email list. > > > > > > Is there a specific BCP / rule that applies here? I have read RFC 8874. > > > > It seems to me that GitHub is quite a bit more transparent than private > > email, or conversations during in-person IETF meetings, so it doesn't > > bother me. > > > > More generally, pushing back on this stuff seems like trying to fight > > the ocean. Every organization uses similar tools now. I haven't been > > working on software as long as some others, but I do remember commenting > > on patches via email. That era is gone. > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > > --000000000000433a8d05c7aac835 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 4:19 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
RF= C *874 gives working groups the ability to decide, by rough consensus
of the group, to make use to various degrees of github.

Specifically, until the group decides explicitly that topics are to be
discussed on github, discussions for the WG (such as Lars' request for =
feedback) are supposed (by multiple long standing RFCs) to take place on the WG email list.

Someone asked "would it have been different if the suggestion had been=
by private email"?=C2=A0 =C2=A0My answer, as I understand the process,= is that
either Lars or the proposer would have repeated the suggestion to the
list, so that it could be discussed.=C2=A0




(Note that the premise here is
that the change is substantive, not merely editorial.=C2=A0 We give editors=
the room to make editorial corrections, and to accept them any way they want.)



Maybe I am tilting against the inevitable.=C2=A0 of course, with the rate o= f
change of tools, by the time it is actually inevitable, something else
will be inevitable instead.

Yours,
Joel

PS: I am not of either the camp "this is old and therefore good" = or
"this is new and therefore better".=C2=A0 I am however of the cam= p that if we
want to change our procedures, we should do so by agreement, not by
accident.=C2=A0 I believe that most of the folks pushing for changes also a= re
trying to be explicit about getting agreement.

On 7/21/2021 6:32 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
> <mailto:jm= h@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that the draft was posted, and comments were = requestedd on the WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0email list, I expect folks to provide comments on t= he WG email list.
>
>
> Is there a specific BCP / rule that applies here? I have read RFC 8874= .
>
> It seems to me that GitHub is quite a bit more transparent than privat= e
> email, or conversations during in-person IETF meetings, so it doesn= 9;t
> bother me.
>
> More generally, pushing back on this stuff seems like trying to fight =
> the ocean. Every=C2=A0organization uses similar tools now. I haven'= ;t been
> working on software as long as some others, but I do remember commenti= ng
> on patches via email. That era is gone.
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
>
--000000000000433a8d05c7aac835-- From nobody Wed Jul 21 18:05:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBFC3A314E for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:05:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vsUeeQolIs-F for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AC523A314B for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4GVZ4K56CXz6G9t9; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:05:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1626915905; bh=O03XmAvUJgZMvkhgU2/Bcso5FcHzrmrXOnAkYdLbE60=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=oPgLM9T31vzMFCZHKxcwEGTD+s4TLpvTdWGs8q8ml1UlvJ5gw8HwjK2T8SE4FmRXj 96MFO2/908m+xJmIbeqGOqMknSEFj5S2XUMx0r9uKXXbmH/H8B4cYjnZ5oG5w0DhMa WaeM7y7SquJg0w0sJj+JXr8i8pVCZYZ/Xn65MyLU= X-Quarantine-ID: <3b6s8rWmPTMo> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GVZ4K0XXvz6G8pq; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:05:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:05:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 01:05:12 -0000 I do not expect it is written down that crisply, and I am not going to search. However, the following things are the case: Working group decisions are to be made on the list (8874 creates the option for a WG to change that.) Once a document is adopted by a working group, it belongs to the WG. While we refer to the pen holders as authors they are expected to reflect the will of the working group. For non-controversial but substantive changes, that does often translate to changing the document and then telling the WG. For larger changes, it is usually the other way around. Having said all that, you can argue that this case is small enough that it could fall into the first category. And you could argue that the document was not adopted. It may be therefore that I over-reacted to your proiding the feedback the way you did. On the other hand, this is a sensitive working group, dealing with IETF process. Going out of our way to maintain visibility. And the fact that in response to your posting, commentary on your change itself appeared on the github but not on the list seems to lend credence to my concern. So, I grant that legalistically I may be over-reacting. But pragmatically, it seems to be a problem. Put differently, the change you proposed could easily have been described in an email. With an explanation of why you were making it. If one is strict about the fact that documents aare almost never adopted in this WG (they are dispatched), it would lead one to claiming the right to use whatever technique one wants for discussions here. Which I think is counter to the spirit of 8874. Yours, Joel PS: Apologies to the gendispatch chairs for dragging us into this meta-discussion. We have no appropriate place as far as I can tell to discuss IETF process at the moment. On 7/21/2021 7:46 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 4:19 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > RFC *874 gives working groups the ability to decide, by rough consensus > of the group, to make use to various degrees of github. > > Specifically, until the group decides explicitly that topics are to be > discussed on github, discussions for the WG (such as Lars' request for > feedback) are supposed (by multiple long standing RFCs) to take > place on > the WG email list. > > Someone asked "would it have been different if the suggestion had been > by private email"?   My answer, as I understand the process, is that > either Lars or the proposer would have repeated the suggestion to the > list, so that it could be discussed. > > > I mean, one of us might have. But before GitHub I routinely took > proposed changes in email or in private feedback of other kinds and > folded them into the next document rev and just informed the WG in some > kind of email or presentation summary. > > More generally, I'm not aware of any IETF rules that say that people > need to raise issues on list or that the editors need to take any > proposed substantive changes to the list before they are folded into the > draft, as opposed to after. If I'm wrong here, can you provide a > citation to the relevant RFC? > > -Ekr > > > (Note that the premise here is > that the change is substantive, not merely editorial.  We give editors > the room to make editorial corrections, and to accept them any way they > want.) > > > > > Maybe I am tilting against the inevitable.  of course, with the rate of > change of tools, by the time it is actually inevitable, something else > will be inevitable instead. > > Yours, > Joel > > PS: I am not of either the camp "this is old and therefore good" or > "this is new and therefore better".  I am however of the camp that > if we > want to change our procedures, we should do so by agreement, not by > accident.  I believe that most of the folks pushing for changes also > are > trying to be explicit about getting agreement. > > On 7/21/2021 6:32 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:08 PM Joel M. Halpern > > > >> wrote: > > > >     Given that the draft was posted, and comments were requestedd > on the WG > >     email list, I expect folks to provide comments on the WG > email list. > > > > > > Is there a specific BCP / rule that applies here? I have read RFC > 8874. > > > > It seems to me that GitHub is quite a bit more transparent than > private > > email, or conversations during in-person IETF meetings, so it > doesn't > > bother me. > > > > More generally, pushing back on this stuff seems like trying to > fight > > the ocean. Every organization uses similar tools now. I haven't been > > working on software as long as some others, but I do remember > commenting > > on patches via email. That era is gone. > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > From nobody Wed Jul 21 18:20:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3FA3A31CE for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:20:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldhJjALAZTay for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CE813A31CD for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id b6so3922044iln.12 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:20:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nbxY7xb/nSpgTleCQVb2BFWx4wt8StQRwnvM1PUHiQY=; b=J4EGNkdWv8XWuHkPktqCgO0p/XksDRyM1R50udwzdL+xW9CdBs+BWdC6lNUwgwcbKM AAk0I3bjal7Kmlyiv2Sb6w5t3djoE/puMeYW31Kg+qOjf+Z2jr35aOHXR1RYOen27wqL TsT3xGhSyv+mZKFPy5pr5rM6oQMXGbnYoGcYTZTx8eFYGG1I/AeXV6yh39YsNuMT/6eL +e9Zs8819i/MjJl5wZDUduuusbU90IkN+JQzUi5MIDEdAdRIcPTxIX98Ghe5ulWxi3rS NHAn8GofhmHxVT5JevL0M5Mi+AGnU7kyRWlp6C1AbwYPyfj2r1PP1wy6JA65iTvdOgXg 0lYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nbxY7xb/nSpgTleCQVb2BFWx4wt8StQRwnvM1PUHiQY=; b=qzAdbJ4dWSWL++jK/Z5GqCFw9b+uTDYy/4AtJmAwZ6jZz5Pc0jiXSpgzwsvuYLfaVj c8ETnPPzyNSym7DQreRV7L7lc4mb3Zw+XbWjHkxvoQDCSV3m/DatPQ8G2QFjubu3UIHk WdOPX19ksaytTlKfDrSp6EWIqPhUyi2HYueZ+BVBq5l2LLFmogdbd7L7Lw9rL1IFsenM JwfE8VHKlV44svCCCXX9Vp787w75qgEH713WtFIQ2rIWIEMt2d0RsB6NBmHVWLaRw2YD ICR34J8QEb+wVJhg0QgcF6wjhG/6sA0YZ+TDuz5UAqTfrS2GI4dO+DBuxV5XirncHzUx 3yww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325aV9xE3QfpY58qrr4iWFaAHIZs+M7PZYIIsQ0n+0QDDi4KI9r BPL7NhlGka4+RVi9qGgcaaolczpo9yQaohh7d6c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwQB40LvildmkMqz/+iZ+5xuYucPfIFrO9/AeRtxW+C4yKlZnh+GQT4UDbDWwdhLJLu8puau/1bpWsLQROVPSY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1208:: with SMTP id a8mr25819023ilq.257.1626916814110; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:20:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 18:20:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Eric Rescorla , Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c8c40805c7ac1677" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 01:20:21 -0000 --000000000000c8c40805c7ac1677 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 6:05 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I do not expect it is written down that crisply, and I am not going to > search. > However, the following things are the case: > > Working group decisions are to be made on the list (8874 creates the > option for a WG to change that.) > Since we're discussing procedural matters, I must point out that this is not the case. RFC8874 is Informational. "An 'Informational' specification is published for the general information of the Internet community, and does not represent an Internet community consensus or recommendation." I understand that some people in the community don't like that some discussions have tended to move to GitHub or equivalent, but I do not think many people object, or even have an opinion. thanks, Rob --000000000000c8c40805c7ac1677 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 6:05 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I do not expect it is written down = that crisply, and I am not going to
search.
However, the following things are the case:

Working group decisions are to be made on the list (8874 creates the
option for a WG to change that.)




--000000000000c8c40805c7ac1677-- From nobody Wed Jul 21 21:07:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9653A3693 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=IgtY9aSU; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=avBUqbw8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9K2MAi1RRBl for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B85BA3A3691 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2021 21:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862995C0004 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 00:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 22 Jul 2021 00:07:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=bMEq6FVduDF7fKgwlfSzwpN7zOadLoI gpu2sQCrQauk=; b=IgtY9aSUYp96hQOzxvjMeTBrnEZ0M2L0K4ae/Yf45Dn7tZ1 UO0Fq419WwmAIV1dQIR2VHnP4DHWK4Tv5iBX6GVgnvTNMTbqKpXLHK4ruvIikOW0 7joYQip72eawA60KDUozXKy4z0WxO8iQqZqaPHpsE37hZh6y+jelFk/83f+gqyBe 0WsjNs5ma2GH/XCvEOgxEGXNIeTv7RCfvk64Fb3vwUVNhdu9eNFRabJeh0v6p8lF ydonsy7w1hYoobnCpd6JkdWTG6XffvLR8hQcBV18PFcsT+9HkrENztmqwhEQQVF4 y9UibQlrCFJUDhCLCDGoToK2AeRTgqXntvE4UKA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=bMEq6F VduDF7fKgwlfSzwpN7zOadLoIgpu2sQCrQauk=; b=avBUqbw89BrrINLqwlIryR PAQOzXD7IHuE1syc026C0jwYakGdEjjWgkQmbIK9GvMQaXkhhf98DrpAxzQ95454 OPaKRfXsWIbFk15ucIRZ5HwIDc2ZKrcYuYQBlla0svczWopq/9vvP8eGKyYwQlnF 2nJ8pnm0zit6tqmsjsZvj8YKcffL2q20FgFwFZGz3AcXTupXjbKZqD7gdjYIunlK JcL+oLVObHA7g0nt7qgx7NXLlvfujHE2JOKQdcTMg9+JJPYJz2ZYu1yeGnnZX1RE Rh+yXgmaRw06P10mhQfO2/oR81O32DS6Dei5CUFIPQcA9bMUoCu5Ric6pDykKoPw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrfeehgdejkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeetueeikedtkeelfeekve fhkeffvedvvefgkefgleeugfdvjeejgeffieegtdejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgep tdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 28B323C0F5C; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 00:07:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-539-g8589ead45b-fm-20210721.001-g8589ead4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:06:50 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:07:26 -0000 On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, at 11:20, Rob Sayre wrote: > Since we're discussing procedural matters, I must point out that this > is not the case. RFC8874 is Informational. I suspect Joel was using a shorthand here. 8874 explains how the rules of 2418 can be applied; it doesn't modify those rules, it just documents a narrow application of those rules that has been shown to be effective. It also acknowledges circumstances similar to what is going on here too. That is, it recognizes that decisions can be made without list discussion, accidentally or otherwise. Still, this isn't a working group item, and even if it were, I see nothing unusual or alarming in what happened. That assessment holds even if this were a formal working group item and the working group had deliberately rejected the use of 8874. After all, if Lars was not using a public repository, a lot of the feedback could have been private, if only to keep the noise of the list. From nobody Thu Jul 22 04:05:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A12C3A423A for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nSe3jTWKjiKj for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF1653A4235 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 04:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.home (pool-173-54-226-148.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [173.54.226.148]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 16MB5BNw370843 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Jul 2021 13:05:12 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1626951913; bh=aw1nxi/yvnHfmRLkhXjMiy0oWpy5WBYxS4pJDR8tWfI=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Rbp8X9rAs7B/+rSF8rsZA5mmQeUuSrU7M8zJC10/sM//dBgeQiFuPeJa0vqoSZV0l iG1xVCW247kCJhpQj6uOeilEpZirDYcK7xgYRD+vLBkJbHZSaQQsVPLa92BasNuS0D Fwu47XuhjB0zaManp0KHwsq70Pkuu9Y9foSRto0E= To: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 07:05:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Sk3L4MUYPzHFEOPbIUQg12NaBsFNzoQVd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:05:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Sk3L4MUYPzHFEOPbIUQg12NaBsFNzoQVd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="zoNJ0nYRqFDSWmC9ZKie4Tee3lXIXog0Q"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> --zoNJ0nYRqFDSWmC9ZKie4Tee3lXIXog0Q Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E9D62DEB069602C5E0380132" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E9D62DEB069602C5E0380132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Except that Lars is asking for community views, and he is treating the=20 draft as if it *is* an IETF draft, and doing so from a very powerful=20 position.=C2=A0 It is that appearance that is muddying the waters here.=C2= =A0 Lars=20 can still make whatever changes he wants to the draft, but doing so=20 without consultation might upset whatever support there is for the=20 draft.=C2=A0 Thus the mud (and I know a lot about mud ;-).=C2=A0 And that= 's=20 particularly unfortunate when we are talking about a process draft about = how we communicate. And Joel's point about not having a place to discuss these sorts of meta = points shouldn't be lost.=C2=A0 It leads me to think that the draft and o= ur=20 approach to IETF community communication is just horribly broken. Eliot On 22.07.21 00:06, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, at 11:20, Rob Sayre wrote: >> Since we're discussing procedural matters, I must point out that this >> is not the case. RFC8874 is Informational. > I suspect Joel was using a shorthand here. 8874 explains how the rules= of 2418 can be applied; it doesn't modify those rules, it just documents= a narrow application of those rules that has been shown to be effective.= > > It also acknowledges circumstances similar to what is going on here too= =2E That is, it recognizes that decisions can be made without list discu= ssion, accidentally or otherwise. > > Still, this isn't a working group item, and even if it were, I see noth= ing unusual or alarming in what happened. That assessment holds even if = this were a formal working group item and the working group had deliberat= ely rejected the use of 8874. After all, if Lars was not using a public = repository, a lot of the feedback could have been private, if only to kee= p the noise of the list. > --------------E9D62DEB069602C5E0380132 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Except that Lars is asking for community views, and he is treating the draft as if it is an IETF draft, and doing so from a very powerful position.=C2=A0 It is that appearance that is muddying the waters here.=C2=A0 Lars can still make whatever change= s he wants to the draft, but doing so without consultation might upset whatever support there is for the draft.=C2=A0 Thus the mud (and I = know a lot about mud ;-).=C2=A0 And that's particularly unfortunate when= we are talking about a process draft about how we communicate.

And Joel's point about not having a place to discuss these sorts of meta points shouldn't be lost.=C2=A0 It leads me to think that t= he draft and our approach to IETF community communication is just horribly broken.

Eliot

On 22.07.21 00:06, Martin Thomson wrote:
= 
On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, at 11:=
20, Rob Sayre wrote:

Since we're discussing pro=
cedural matters, I must point out that this=20
is not the case. RFC8874 is Informational.

I suspect Joel was using a shorthand here.  8874 explains how the rules o=
f 2418 can be applied; it doesn't modify those rules, it just documents a=
 narrow application of those rules that has been shown to be effective.

It also acknowledges circumstances similar to what is going on here too. =
 That is, it recognizes that decisions can be made without list discussio=
n, accidentally or otherwise.

Still, this isn't a working group item, and even if it were, I see nothin=
g unusual or alarming in what happened.  That assessment holds even if th=
is were a formal working group item and the working group had deliberatel=
y rejected the use of 8874.  After all, if Lars was not using a public re=
pository, a lot of the feedback could have been private, if only to keep =
the noise of the list.
--------------E9D62DEB069602C5E0380132-- --zoNJ0nYRqFDSWmC9ZKie4Tee3lXIXog0Q-- --Sk3L4MUYPzHFEOPbIUQg12NaBsFNzoQVd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmD5UOcFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejPD pAf9F7ADRWzB/RUeVKOSLWeeX+25aKQVnXq3azxT2eYlvAIRgheQSQlKZ9qHIO8PESEQcr8ZfAk6 8DsmnrVbUY97gJpByMHch1TqEzvIXYOaw1x1fznLo7u0b/2ToHHwstaJLR7EypZromViKR0rkbjo lXoY461N4m202j+z9uXbUbBK3/meTp3akLbpZrhbIpTTK8bt0TDYZeRpVshim7Vnn1/Q6nPFTedM IcRfkMTJdiktagHCK1Hv8HTyVW1bsPKVCoLhFqs5xSMjX6rs7s7RMQUFwYp3flZ/XC49RpRZNhj9 uPF7zOD8HEVzzMV8Il7tP3brMfiC8OU4onBnmIjB+Q== =LxyR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sk3L4MUYPzHFEOPbIUQg12NaBsFNzoQVd-- From nobody Thu Jul 22 10:36:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FB83A0A87 for ; 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Thu, 22 Jul 2021 19:36:31 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4GW04B1sW4z9TT for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.15] (helo=xmail05.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m6ccU-00008g-3N for gendispatch@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:36:26 -0700 Received: (qmail 1498 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2021 17:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.101]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.46]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail05.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 22 Jul 2021 17:36:24 -0000 To: Eliot Lear , Martin Thomson , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:36:23 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1C0608B8D09D2F0084B451CD" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.9 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu977 qrQMzIVrHZSXTMhfPYiXDDiJG0uuaGxyiW/8ppFSSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLV0XgtlP1veEWDxFjeo42e2HGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4alsvCwp YJpdb4B2L4Z5wQyKkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgGI409Uexq5zP1TE60A1w60 gIuJNK/a31b8e5jmruppb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKWIgJ2XxgK7Je5b0uU+cZFhDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAlsNcvE/YOneSYsokBCgJVgMFEtMYkDtPBfDm/HWcGTWmMQoM o3Zf0HmhYtupZiQ1/b484E4wlC6NpdS3W42FuAwOVcZv254a1SspgLrZBCX/vIk9aPfsVL4ZV0IK T01i1euO5TcDeKjrEmYPn2IVWRvsDFbMyuyrnnpyt5QdgPdM2kAubAmq/PTQO+W2FInivlx21Yi3 rRmhgFI0Buha6+OZ3JKVmi72ocgY5kMQSjs7FeHN9ztUfyhmiivUY2iqA4H7+3hna43Kh3w6qf0n g4eLCrVbm7nC2LbgwAUU/zyk X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:36:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1C0608B8D09D2F0084B451CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would not say that the draft is broken, but this episode clearly=20 exposes an interesting tension. Look at the progression. Draft authors=20 use GitHub to coordinate the editing of the document: fair, well within=20 everybody's idea of process. As the discussion goes on the mailing list, = draft authors capture key points of the discussion and open=20 corresponding issues on GitHub: again, fair, authors do need a way to=20 keep track of needed improvements. Draft authors prepare updates and=20 push them as PR: here again, fair, authors can the tools to agree on the = next of the next edits. But then we do have a big tension. Some working=20 group members will be very tempted to comment directly on the issues and = PR in the GitHub repo, because it seems more efficient than pushing yet=20 another email on the thread. Other working group members point out that=20 this is not the agreed process, that all discussions should take place=20 on the list. Insert comparison with private email to draft authors, etc. = Add the point that there are usually many more draft contributors than=20 the listed authors. This is a mess. I see why the process asks participants to not shortcut=20 the discussion on the mailing list. I also see that these shortcuts are=20 a very efficient way to save time and organize comments. It comes down=20 to personal habits. Software developers are very much at ease using=20 issues and PRs, and perceive the insistence on using email as a form of=20 hazing. Traditional protocol experts see these tools as a way to evade=20 process and cut corners. Blocking the tools will in the long run exclude = one class of participants. Allowing free use will maybe disenfranchise=20 another class of participants. Kinda blocking while kinda allowing will=20 just create a mess. For the specific case in point, my proposed compromise would be to=20 formalize working group adoption. The process for private drafts could=20 be private, but once the draft is formally adopted the authors would=20 have to follow the process adopted by the WG. -- Christian Huitema On 7/22/2021 4:05 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Except that Lars is asking for community views, and he is treating the = > draft as if it *is* an IETF draft, and doing so from a very powerful=20 > position.=C2=A0 It is that appearance that is muddying the waters here.= =C2=A0=20 > Lars can still make whatever changes he wants to the draft, but doing=20 > so without consultation might upset whatever support there is for the=20 > draft.=C2=A0 Thus the mud (and I know a lot about mud ;-).=C2=A0 And th= at's=20 > particularly unfortunate when we are talking about a process draft=20 > about how we communicate. > > And Joel's point about not having a place to discuss these sorts of=20 > meta points shouldn't be lost.=C2=A0 It leads me to think that the draf= t=20 > and our approach to IETF community communication is just horribly broke= n. > > Eliot > > On 22.07.21 00:06, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, at 11:20, Rob Sayre wrote: >>> Since we're discussing procedural matters, I must point out that this= >>> is not the case. RFC8874 is Informational. >> I suspect Joel was using a shorthand here.=C2=A0 8874 explains how the= =20 >> rules of 2418 can be applied; it doesn't modify those rules, it just=20 >> documents a narrow application of those rules that has been shown to=20 >> be effective. >> >> It also acknowledges circumstances similar to what is going on here=20 >> too.=C2=A0 That is, it recognizes that decisions can be made without l= ist=20 >> discussion, accidentally or otherwise. >> >> Still, this isn't a working group item, and even if it were, I see=20 >> nothing unusual or alarming in what happened.=C2=A0 That assessment ho= lds=20 >> even if this were a formal working group item and the working group=20 >> had deliberately rejected the use of 8874.=C2=A0 After all, if Lars wa= s=20 >> not using a public repository, a lot of the feedback could have been=20 >> private, if only to keep the noise of the list. >> > > --------------1C0608B8D09D2F0084B451CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I would not say that the draft is broken, but this episode clearly exposes an interesting tension. Look at the progression. Draft authors use GitHub to coordinate the editing of the document: fair, well within everybody's idea of process. As the discussion goes on the mailing list, draft authors capture key points of the discussion and open corresponding issues on GitHub: again, fair, authors do need a way to keep track of needed improvements. Draft authors prepare updates and push them as PR: here again, fair, authors can the tools to agree on the next of the next edits. But then we do have a big tension. Some working group members will be very tempted to comment directly on the issues and PR in the GitHub repo, because it seems more efficient than pushing yet another email on the thread. Other working group members point out that this is not the agreed process, that all discussions should take place on the list. Insert comparison with private email to draft authors, etc. Add the point that there are usually many more draft contributors than the listed authors.

This is a mess. I see why the process asks participants to not shortcut the discussion on the mailing list. I also see that these shortcuts are a very efficient way to save time and organize comments. It comes down to personal habits. Software developers are very much at ease using issues and PRs, and perceive the insistence on using email as a form of hazing. Traditional protocol experts see these tools as a way to evade process and cut corners. Blocking the tools will in the long run exclude one class of participants. Allowing free use will maybe disenfranchise another class of participants. Kinda blocking while kinda allowing will just create a mess.

For the specific case in point, my proposed compromise would be to formalize working group adoption. The process for private drafts could be private, but once the draft is formally adopted the authors would have to follow the process adopted by the WG.

-- Christian Huitema


On 7/22/2021 4:05 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
Except that Lars is asking for community views, and he is treating the draft as if it *is* an IETF draft, and doing so from a very powerful position.  It is that appearance that is muddying the waters here.  Lars can still make whatever changes he wants to the draft, but doing so without consultation might upset whatever support there is for the draft.  Thus the mud (and I know a lot about mud ;-).  And that's particularly unfortunate when we are talking about a process draft about how we communicate.

And Joel's point about not having a place to discuss these sorts of meta points shouldn't be lost.  It leads me to think that the draft and our approach to IETF community communication is just horribly broken.

Eliot

On 22.07.21 00:06, Martin Thomson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, at 11:20, Rob Sayre wrote:
Since we're discussing procedural matters, I must point out that this
is not the case. RFC8874 is Informational.
I suspect Joel was using a shorthand here.  8874 explains how the rules of 2418 can be applied; it doesn't modify those rules, it just documents a narrow application of those rules that has been shown to be effective.

It also acknowledges circumstances similar to what is going on here too.  That is, it recognizes that decisions can be made without list discussion, accidentally or otherwise.

Still, this isn't a working group item, and even if it were, I see nothing unusual or alarming in what happened.  That assessment holds even if this were a formal working group item and the working group had deliberately rejected the use of 8874.  After all, if Lars was not using a public repository, a lot of the feedback could have been private, if only to keep the noise of the list.



--------------1C0608B8D09D2F0084B451CD-- From nobody Thu Jul 22 11:40:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BFF3A0D58 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:40:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id thJs4Nv32hUc for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57CFE3A0D5E for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id p186so7476485iod.13 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:40:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z7qJ5v5LKFQv+8XRc5r++Ij7CYAQ91Wbcm8rWoJl/HQ=; b=Gfc53QhKH6TwYIOdDraf2OYrFU5KWdyvndJRbrzfH50+5K2kagjdtvsPsPJ15lbv3z qsBYYuL/zr3S/sdN045TeYWz9gW0TsZyAITW8eW2t/X1GWu5vOXDFpSl5Y79q16IuocO JOGOsEdIq4Wv85xfLIA/hIKdZeiroY08ljw657ktew5/ynnSTPfxSEcFiF9r/TianIZa tjyvpfdCIy2P47DPRh8AfCDkS2CXA37ZOyujDNWTnOBJ0goRYDBF3fucyPlrF/aV0jYy kDNHd5+WfEacCierz5Sk11s5plvIMIKLnqPYe4dklP5BklAYNXqJtKgJ+mFIilGCng+V 659A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z7qJ5v5LKFQv+8XRc5r++Ij7CYAQ91Wbcm8rWoJl/HQ=; b=gcVXhFZLlRHd4YccBQzh+Q/Kbcy6Q7TlZN5kGXbdVAI+VQ0517t9o3BY8Sp5Fzf5Ik kbWQqvFx/e2bcgC1i4MmlnaNP9Yfr21v3OvmThZDnMTHfKKSIZP948G1XWfGKgpC21O9 l0WKxcHHTnW4xwycWzYxWoOGs/3hcszfgmIM0oZg15n2lX3Sl7sT5pXfaAqW3SqO8oG2 gQ0qHohM4RH54XjVB5inr8fDi4gbQC9eIfkdEbs1SoCeeh06vMfQ84Zxief1xPVcPD7V BC+HlW6KIOaXcLIwYRRnXhynfv8rcYR+8E5sv2Bl0bWhHkXuto/Lt6Hyf1V7GP/zn4D6 JiVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531OXhGN17SGxlZqsFVsgxHf61Vueu586+UFXXRdcyU3gu2ni9zu 6swfZvphDlQe2yYwK6NIqa+gY0ICNLPetqPczoJfUeHhxPs9og== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwsFRCjoV7CcVNk67Du5Ncx6TSzlfUYyZhlX8avrHJi1493/YEm1q2Ic/gF4F/O6sTXz3ksHJtK/YHb9eEm3wA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:3423:: with SMTP id n35mr831720ioz.188.1626979208712; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:40:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 11:39:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christian Huitema Cc: Eliot Lear , Martin Thomson , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cad60105c7ba9d6d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 18:40:17 -0000 --000000000000cad60105c7ba9d6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 10:36 AM Christian Huitema wrote: > Other working group members point out that this is not the agreed process, > that all discussions should take place on the list. > I think your characterization of the debate is accurate, except for this part. RFC 2418 says only: "Many working group participants hold that mailing list discussion is the best place to consider and resolve issues and make decisions." It's definitely true that many WGs decide to force everything onto the mailing list, but that is not required, and it is not the default. Recently, WGs like HTTP, QUIC and TLS moved a lot of discussion to GitHub. Some people are not used to that method of working, and don't like it. However, it's not against the rules, or counter to any agreed process. I also agree that there's nothing wrong with doing these edits on GitHub, even in a list-focused WG, as long as the resulting draft is discussed on the list. thanks, Rob --000000000000cad60105c7ba9d6d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=20 =20 =20

Other working group members point out that this is not the agreed process, that all discussions should take place on the list.






--000000000000cad60105c7ba9d6d-- From nobody Thu Jul 22 12:51:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5346A3A07F0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VscfoXSb4T9Y; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B4A33A07E9; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 12:51:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <66C6521E-D2A8-475C-8F7A-315540791248@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_14207B43-365F-4924-867B-9A8293CBB3FA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 07:51:40 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christian Huitema , Martin Thomson , Eliot Lear , Rob Sayre To: GENDISPATCH List References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 19:51:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_14207B43-365F-4924-867B-9A8293CBB3FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have a practical suggestion for all of this, which may even be = inadvertently on-topic for gendispatch. How about setting up an integration testing working group with a mailing = list and an associated GitHub repository and using that both as a = teaching tool and for experimenting with GitHub configuration and = customisation to see if we can get a list<->GitHub integration that = people on both sides of the fence are happy with? Jay > On 23/07/2021, at 6:39 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 10:36 AM Christian Huitema = > wrote: > Other working group members point out that this is not the agreed = process, that all discussions should take place on the list. >=20 >=20 > I think your characterization of the debate is accurate, except for = this part. RFC 2418 says only: >=20 > "Many working group participants hold that mailing list discussion is = the best place to consider and resolve issues and make decisions." > =20 > It's definitely true that many WGs decide to force everything onto the = mailing list, but that is not required, and it is not the default. >=20 > Recently, WGs like HTTP, QUIC and TLS moved a lot of discussion to = GitHub. Some people are not used to that method of working, and don't = like it. However, it's not against the rules, or counter to any agreed = process. >=20 > I also agree that there's nothing wrong with doing these edits on = GitHub, even in a list-focused WG, as long as the resulting draft is = discussed on the list. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_14207B43-365F-4924-867B-9A8293CBB3FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I = have a practical suggestion for all of this, which may even be = inadvertently on-topic for gendispatch.

How about setting up an integration = testing working group with a mailing list and an associated GitHub = repository and using that both as a teaching tool and for experimenting = with GitHub configuration and customisation to see if we can get a = list<->GitHub integration that people on both sides of the fence = are happy with?

Jay

On 23/07/2021, at 6:39 AM, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> = wrote:

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 = at 10:36 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Other working group members point out that this is not the agreed process, that all discussions should take place on the = list.


I think your characterization of the debate is accurate, = except for this part. RFC 2418 says only:

"Many working group participants hold = that mailing list discussion is the best place to consider and = resolve issues and make decisions."
 
It's definitely true that many = WGs decide to force everything onto the mailing list, but that is not = required, and it is not the default.

Recently, WGs like HTTP, QUIC and = TLS moved a lot of discussion to GitHub. Some people are not used to = that method of working, and don't like it. However, it's not = against the rules, or counter to any agreed process.

I also agree that = there's nothing wrong with doing these edits on GitHub, even in a = list-focused WG, as long as the resulting draft is discussed on the = list.

thanks,
Rob

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_14207B43-365F-4924-867B-9A8293CBB3FA-- From nobody Thu Jul 22 14:34:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE763A0C36 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w1ENbPp_IrZf for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9E4E3A0C35 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lear-Air.local ([12.246.51.142]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 16MLXgHo378881 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Jul 2021 23:33:44 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1626989625; bh=s8H9XlIB3dRoQC6Wyqzz04zFYcwHPlOSs1pLDJ/6x9o=; h=To:References:Cc:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=XUnJYmM+MB/2ozHXfZrp97W9En4bVC75uH322Bj4siJTtPWIVluQoa8pFLjjb8Xnq 1cQ9KEirwlSMGmB8L/jIgngW6R0G4/lgGJrH5EVbun/6GhJD9OLOipQTwNAAZxmEnb 3oqbk1y7yUCANL6v8HvPNUbme/Ce39FY9nZQQeO8= To: Christian Huitema References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:33:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gk8ZCZyuNWUZ8SOoW4Gv08cH6dl8tJtxF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 21:34:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --gk8ZCZyuNWUZ8SOoW4Gv08cH6dl8tJtxF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="q1pKggEU97YyzhftAe5FoQDDpbv22p9iP"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Christian Huitema Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> --q1pKggEU97YyzhftAe5FoQDDpbv22p9iP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi Christian I really like the way you describe the tension.=C2=A0 We all have our=20 preferences and our reasons for them. To me, it is better for a group to = simply decide which world they are primarily going to live in, and then=20 live in that world, so as not to bifurcate conversations.=C2=A0 That solv= es a=20 great many problems, like worrying about having to retread conversations = due to others being surprised, or some feeling disadvantaged by the=20 process for having not used the In tool. Also, to be fair to Lars, the IETF chair job is no picnic, and trying to = make progress in small steps is often the only way to do so.=C2=A0=C2=A0 = IMHO=20 we've just run out of runway, and Joel's point should provide us an=20 opportunity to open a more serious discussion about how we communicate.=C2= =A0=20 Mark has written a draft about the IETF list, but I would rather we back = off and look at what the organization needs. As a matter of practice, history, and practicality, I disagree with Rob=20 Sayre that there is no default.=C2=A0 RFC 2418 states plainly that- > An IETF working group MUST have a general Internet mailing list.=C2=A0 = Most=20 > of the work of an IETF working group will be conducted on the mailing=20 > list. And the Tao largely says the same thing.=C2=A0 This only really matters i= f=20 participants really can't agree on working methods. Regardless, I would=20 rather we hit this issue head on, and that we hit our other=20 communications problems head on as well.=C2=A0 I won't try to engineer th= e=20 solution in this email, tho. Eliot --q1pKggEU97YyzhftAe5FoQDDpbv22p9iP-- --gk8ZCZyuNWUZ8SOoW4Gv08cH6dl8tJtxF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmD55DUFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejM/ TAf/ZcgCCzlgngsNhHh3DHTilIMIg1YmvKtujwyu6vJrQEKaelAkLjwS2/WyAa4I754eooBtcYNP y3/zxZZXxaeUH6YrdFUqfxDMFOLMf29tOHep9DuVM2DnQt12Wat1OiZ/OPSrfYbQhADxBlr5CBvM aiwWO+7ZgRgbqVvzFQrh+iCbRxOhrx1X5tF1Ds/ZMFCUHj3y8S2thdRWMNvO8b8NbzAahZobZ9kr Xl0YIO7bgI+AohDgOUL4i7cySLTMbkjDhygXLiJUwLAYMjn2AJljsycOXzd36tsJ/8u6R8Ezq3T5 dtLhX0GaIw81Zq8Rorva1NK49kN3BvT27Z+9B3gCdQ== =MSX0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gk8ZCZyuNWUZ8SOoW4Gv08cH6dl8tJtxF-- From nobody Thu Jul 22 15:10:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B0F3A0D97 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:10:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-I1s3pUitVc for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 426283A0D94 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id h1so293757iol.9 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:10:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qencU+Or8kqFwDMUItT61/cwn00MURyhWPB4Sf6X6rQ=; b=l26UJPSoDqaUfpqvec56vrZCjW86kVBWjVCHrgL2W5CuFyOGuI4Dt7j6acr9ts8VC0 pMRpoPFvJoWMxzDuJyvNrDrJztHH0tGX2j2mVChTKV0o/FcMK8Ar/EQhrk8d9fpWt4W8 AGHUobHDSB4DkH+JYa6U4xyd8sdSO1XkQALiDRAqNPaRR8ZbPQAwNaVxJNVLHUR8kNaF 3t0H9xZ7mJEvAg59b5nVYJzKQNZEQ3QvrQHyEqB9UaI/+A1LrA5UmMuBGP60TNvksHLg dE2dncw9r3fLDBhGEj52FZkO16eRyo6L49NpGHAbeCddBOYyNln5tlKz+Qm0Q5ieoxl7 fxIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qencU+Or8kqFwDMUItT61/cwn00MURyhWPB4Sf6X6rQ=; b=VkHva/1KE+nva9PcBL65+ruVsFbEHsHj13Hp9esE37oH/xWPjnQKhP2V38VdkP0of6 U7kiswoZsgYH92Q6nb5FDuUiAPDetirjlWKhfIcxTn+yMyZNQ8YiCbRqCGEUv9KpweHL 02cHYCY/R4FidDmJgGw+cVgopoyv6uIhaBQc3ddUEUpUoVdnr2APpmqzwwexq+3GbXaZ 5W688pRPgrHUndvrLoQ3dq0mJsE9oH7lif4m4khSLTqQXWv7VIkykb10k7+r6hBwFY9v Xz1+sY9sgHJvCiQMpMphWpW9lyIOHW1JqNI7Oth91fx2zuY5dy/J2P+SUFpMyXzsf4D/ xD9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530R9bk3rRgGtY3Jx0eIok86j2AIH0dGJ4Lv6WOkSP7XKy683Njm f/MBQEeAU572/BzzgzV557DLoylkFGnXeYd4j+4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwCjuPM0luyvBiaMjpRAL4588R1Ld6ZQADMPn5/VW/vV4YaJzdjoI0LR4Q/dVOylzMbdXu/1utntYek8nvhJcI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b24e:: with SMTP id b75mr1451456iof.94.1626991817625; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:10:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 15:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Christian Huitema , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005793ca05c7bd8d90" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2021 22:10:25 -0000 --0000000000005793ca05c7bd8d90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 2:34 PM Eliot Lear wrote: > > As a matter of practice, history, and practicality, I disagree with Rob > Sayre that there is no default. RFC 2418 states plainly that- > > > An IETF working group MUST have a general Internet mailing list. Most > > of the work of an IETF working group will be conducted on the mailing > > list. > Fair. This all does depend on how one interprets the circa 1998 RFC. I thought this part meant "in public, online", but others seem to think it means SMTP. The RFC does allow for design teams (which can be public with open membership), and I tend to view active GitHub participants as self-selecting design teams. > And the Tao largely says the same thing. The Tao is Informational (2418 is a BCP), and out of date. > This only really matters if > participants really can't agree on working methods. Regardless, I would > rather we hit this issue head on > I do think that something like the WG Jay suggests is a good idea. thanks, Rob --0000000000005793ca05c7bd8d90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 2:34 PM Eliot Lea= r <lear@lear.ch>= ; wrote:

As a matter of practice, history, and practicality, I disagree with Rob Sayre that there is no default.=C2=A0 RFC 2418 states plainly that-

> An IETF working group MUST have a general Internet mailing list.=C2=A0= Most
> of the work of an IETF working group will be conducted on the mailing =
> list.

Fair. This all does depend o= n how one interprets the circa=C2=A01998 RFC. I thought this part meant "in public, online&q= uot;, but others seem to think it means SMTP.

The RFC does allow for des= ign teams (which can be public with open membership), and I tend to view ac= tive GitHub participants as self-selecting design teams.
=C2=A0
And the Tao largely says the same thing.

Th= e Tao is Informational (2418 is a BCP), and out of date.
=C2=A0
This only really matt= ers if
participants really can't agree on working methods. Regardless, I would=
rather we hit this issue head on

I do t= hink that something like the WG Jay suggests is a good idea.

=
thanks,
Rob

--0000000000005793ca05c7bd8d90-- From nobody Thu Jul 22 17:01:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B0E3A1358 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:01:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HBX3dTqG_gpa for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2EC53A135A for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id n10so1287965plf.4 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:01:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SP5fGaEAUj/Jsuzv4vK9nIg5aiUXCGikD7E04++pJWc=; b=MmaPpi0zTWmx65fiz/Wkq19tjcVCcqEz+ah5mkAQ2kZIUOGqVTmYiSGHmN+C40ELct 1DSlO5niwG1swwUcZqUoNeQrSxWe/b7w3M0I7UbZVkwYj/fJ9c9sI7l7gdA8RjYeYsr3 6NkNvo8JpTBgNHa5udKshilRWbevjcrOIhlyL3FAUqg587/6hrZnqdiAS1D8qmBlMoSr /DhRJD0mODlG4E75K0Y4xXKKXuADBm8FXs5E9LUFpkTaoKL9uBZsBPisW3ex2G4rCXfz wNOWIw9v15vgCOiwfDihDJxuqbxe3Q1P4OK4vF9WvPu9uh7wGoVfdRU9WHEsHETI88FI xJwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SP5fGaEAUj/Jsuzv4vK9nIg5aiUXCGikD7E04++pJWc=; b=MGHmXPOjJKhJBksppEMUcduuePzmaQxpXBNhm4wDIbAICXsAbKTVre5trUHOxSGcRN ACoT6pNKKVPFKrC3VOQUzufdxRnhSbPizkcSTFsL3owvRz31GQLGCQ0QY+l9aMxN5PZb 25e90pSmW7Q1Tl5ZejfK0wmdcwFSglgS+dTEtpgcZHd0Yd3+OtPaOPpx+WbTEn3vloKk sVCBM5QHZTj5HKjB8BJFv7W3fxxc5yijvqwHblMZ9jFvH597k53l+YHx4n9Lmn6XlWlQ cCxxQnRpI8NeXzk5zlYAKPE0FXSYiYCfLvI9lLmrAL5SBZvaDTTUjsHG+8dp4cfFM6fF Ey+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531SLvuH5+iYv2C1lPjAwyUwvTYvdypAlfU993QHwdmx1mu6s1a6 1SUoMKl2DQyqx10fjpE1GnRpObSfpQgFcw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyVW0+/tBJogvY/bH+FITCW4Xb/B2AIQi0Sjt3/VtoyE9R29yBPzptj3Xw2JCsXMgPdpH1GzA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:d34d:: with SMTP id u13mr2327319pgi.167.1626998464427; Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l2sm30673577pfc.157.2021.07.22.17.01.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 22 Jul 2021 17:01:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> <2969a321-0f3f-9d54-b993-1b1e87d1fb11@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:00:59 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 00:01:16 -0000 Below... On 20-Jul-21 21:22, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Please see inline. >=20 >> On 19. Jul 2021, at 22:39, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 19-Jul-21 20:14, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >>> A citation gives you a reference from the new RFC to an existing one.=20 If you also want to add a pointer from an existing RFC to a new one, you = need to add meta data. >> >> Right, but I don't think the current text in the draft makes it clear = when you would want to do this. Consider that "cited by" is already avail= able in the tracker, e.g. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8200/refere= ncedby/ >> >> I chose that example to make it clear that "See also" is not the same = as "Cited by". Which of the RFCs that cite RFC8200 would deserve a "See a= lso=E2=80=9D? >=20 > Thanks for bring this example up. This list at least shows that =E2=80=9C= cited by=E2=80=9D is not useful in this context. I guess most of the docu= ments on this list =E2=80=9Cuse=E2=80=9D RFC8200. So for the reader of th= e new documents, it=E2=80=99s important to have the pointer to FC8200 but=20 any reader of RFC8200 would probably not really be interested in most of = those documents on this list. I don=E2=80=99t think I have a perfect answ= er which of these documents could be =E2=80=9Csee also=E2=80=9D (and I di= dn=E2=80=99t try to put in the time just now to figure it out) but I woul= d expect a much shorter list. >=20 >> And, by the way, who decides, since this will be added after publicati= on? >=20 > I have an open issue for this on github: >=20 > https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/issues/7 >=20 > However, I on purpose did not try to address it in the last revision. I=20 believe having these tags is just part of the consensus process as the re= st of then document as well. As such similarly as for every other issue t= hat is raised by the IESG, the IESG can block the document until the issu= e is addressed. Not sure we really need to say anything explicitly in the=20 draft? "See also" is a bit different because it doesn't relate to normative effe= cts in the way that "Amends" and "Extends" do. So it could affect any str= eam, not just IESG-approved documents. I guess that means that the RFC Ed= itor is responsible. The old "Also RFCxxxx" designation that you find in = the RFC index, starting with RFC29 and continuing at least through RFC238= 9, was certainly an RFC Editor decision. Possibly all of those should be = changed to "See also"? Brian >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> I don=E2=80=99t expect this will be used extensively as I do believe = =E2=80=9Camends" and =E2=80=9Cextents=E2=80=9D covers the most important = cases but it can still be useful (e.g. to connect a suite of recommendati= on documents=E2=80=A6?). >>> >>> >>>> On 19. Jul 2021, at 06:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> >>>> On 19-Jul-21 16:14, Martin Thomson wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, at 14:10, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >>>>>>> That doesn't surprise me. I think it's a useful relationship; for=20 example=20 >>>>>>> a large number of the RFCs cited in "IPv6 node requirements" coul= d have a=20 >>>>>>> "see also" relationship with each other, but it's quite different=20 from "updates". >>>>>> >>>>>> Yep. Exactly. Fully agree, >>>>> >>>>> Isn't that what citations are for? Keeping metadata lean would be = most consistent with its prominence. >>>> >>>> Yes, in many cases a citation (and the implied "cited by") is enough= , but "see also" is only intended for occasional use: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html#= section-3-4 >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> Gendispatch mailing list >>>> Gendispatch@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >>>> >>> >> >> --=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Fri Jul 23 02:02:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3FC3A0D4E for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 02:02:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MpsUl9_9oTgl for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 02:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61E293A0D2C for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 02:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee72e330080795d082087a869.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e72e:3300:8079:5d08:2087:a869]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1m6r4y-0004NO-Dv; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:02:48 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 11:02:47 +0200 Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <876D237B-F934-4741-8BE8-A36513179A1D@kuehlewind.net> References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> <2969a321-0f3f-9d54-b993-1b1e87d1fb11@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1627030972;72875bc9; X-HE-SMSGID: 1m6r4y-0004NO-Dv Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Who decides about these tags? [was: Re: Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt)] X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 09:02:54 -0000 Hi Brian, On this point: > On 23. Jul 2021, at 02:00, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 >>>=20 >>> And, by the way, who decides, since this will be added after = publication? >>=20 >> I have an open issue for this on github: >>=20 >> https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/issues/7 >>=20 >> However, I on purpose did not try to address it in the last revision. = I=20 > believe having these tags is just part of the consensus process as the = rest of then document as well. As such similarly as for every other = issue that is raised by the IESG, the IESG can block the document until = the issue is addressed. Not sure we really need to say anything = explicitly in the=20 > draft? >=20 > "See also" is a bit different because it doesn't relate to normative = effects in the way that "Amends" and "Extends" do. So it could affect = any stream, not just IESG-approved documents. I guess that means that = the RFC Editor is responsible. The old "Also RFCxxxx" designation that = you find in the RFC index, starting with RFC29 and continuing at least = through RFC2389, was certainly an RFC Editor decision. Possibly all of = those should be changed to "See also=E2=80=9D? I didn=E2=80=99t consider the RFC editor as an option here yet, also = because so far this proposal is scoped to the IETF stream. However, I = also don=E2=80=99t see a need to strive for completeness for the =E2=80=9C= See also=E2=80=9D tags. My assumption is rather to be conservative in = adding it because if you add it too broadly it because less useful. = Therefore having the authors or wg t decide about the =E2=80=9Csee = also=E2=80=9D tag is fine for me. The draft explicitly discusses that there is no intention to change tags = for existing drafts, as, to say it simply, that might be more effort = that it=E2=80=99s worth it. Mirja From nobody Fri Jul 23 05:50:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25873A19F7 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 05:49:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FWo4YldsqRs4 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 05:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 199BA3A19F2 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 05:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [212.68.24.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ACFD060035D; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:49:44 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1627044584; bh=jh2xCo21tVclQtgsSVRZ0GjCwIvn0Hv+jY4jnUahLeU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=M8ude3Zt0n8Y+JKRmeu8+hd2UsfOM8Q8CYq1WOpCYI5Jofhhtgwb0XFWl9T3IHruL DHDgLrpC26ADrRoOrIZS9IJjUpKLzM4rUVQITtgxepWBhyUCo+Tzh6TzWMVSNoLVrX up81jCboJg1tCoN68+fODX9NO5jPvkXZvlRotWhI= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_51658C0F-AB94-43FA-9C09-7BBB5903FFAB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 15:49:43 +0300 In-Reply-To: <8940C9EC-3A12-41A0-B8FE-A320C96BEC2D@eggert.org> Cc: dhruv.ietf@gmail.com, GENDISPATCH List To: Mark Nottingham References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <8940C9EC-3A12-41A0-B8FE-A320C96BEC2D@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: ACFD060035D.A3F0F X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 12:50:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_51658C0F-AB94-43FA-9C09-7BBB5903FFAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I merged the PR; an rfcdiff of the current editor's copy against -02 is = at = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-egge= rt-bcp45bis.txt&url2=3Dhttps://larseggert.github.io/bcp45bis/draft-eggert-= bcp45bis.txt I plan to submit the editor's copy as -03 when the I-D submission window = reopens. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_51658C0F-AB94-43FA-9C09-7BBB5903FFAB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmD6uucACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcOKRAAiUR6PozZhevlwOKL75+Sy5vNusXGhHD8/aGW9WabvXrW44DzkoRcRGLb NIeTFZJEzkEJVVd97yRmUKxn7I0OAKkADuOEso55+4PlaevKwSXeYq46eFfRuHNC tsbtLR+CvSA7DceuKCxBu4sYPEwcla7pfz6rKDwLuU38r1hdjoIWmbZ76B/FX1Im BzHvYZuyOh0zFZo6m+LMNx/jDRSItAaqsXOTAmZuKG9CeorKPw1pkJl0xN5y4lLF ScYUPp9MrF2Op/stM49PVhV1UWbF4C4pgQLKH9CrNeJiN5/9puzVQwnTLCynYkJa 5Zy844QDACeVyBTDJ2r8SiwoXpmhpVZmbUHQJ9ZsNyaScXIvkZQz2DDRk8luQTLY IQjnTqlHpPNprWMeJwIgYIzOvfjNSpBNV5h1xTVKl/Gd3c6m1emYGjrNmWt2qMlX FIOlcrEt8hrqCdXRNv3PuNra9oXUXjhZUTi3uUh3m8U8yWcMDRoUHE76TcDm1VJK Y0Rho2Cgz/EzUzOXktZs06FPpeu/QBjWtaI2sPW3b4h6p7Tn3BdRLocU4oJLykyH QBTcshCxifU1OlqeffZ97Zpx6gEwQFS+Mg8BXB2ROOMNHNHMYJ6vm6FS3okvCYQG 28pI5h6CQ8/VGXATPn1zzcm+5xpwXcXwUJ07SbQ6qGc8X/wihJc= =Z+t9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_51658C0F-AB94-43FA-9C09-7BBB5903FFAB-- From nobody Fri Jul 23 13:47:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7391B3A18FA for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H27lfz_ehpcq for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1031.google.com (mail-pj1-x1031.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1031]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6360E3A18E7 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1031.google.com with SMTP id j1so3891952pjv.3 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qI6/FXf9yHHW6pnrsilzPmPX/kpVveMbM5/Y5t0JkrM=; b=PVUpwBltW31hVi0l8g9mrvnaJyhR+9EfeAJKse6bAz5J2vmxCjF6SoDiirIR2jod8f h4vS8zJRfUYWVOSgbqOrLzoVmlNbYjSgZMk9pmJWbQwoVzcdgnfZJrkSgvHL4gFTpljH 2U5yc9Ns7U/mJmE0NSGlrGLua9zlQHy01uxHQy1wPa87qB9D2tOwKJBidZtsY4i1Xrkn WN1VPpNmlLVxvNi9N58nWS9Ws/phPIRCBE6Y2/iSDklJk9eIb/Ah94Nwy1i5nV93fFH8 0qa+H8omdOzmcjbmhy9Wa5+bRGLYbXoUCjlH0FBdFuH9Ysfy3N8xgM36+YgpwbWk0/oo zjzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qI6/FXf9yHHW6pnrsilzPmPX/kpVveMbM5/Y5t0JkrM=; b=ayEDtGEWGxoJ0zTn3T+aSYQTkvYi3nI7E4LXVWwnkCSZxdio7ha9PJBRz5T4exIOfu nyM4+ETuKJNIb/RiUpzIyffwD0QYyFzrdCsrHljZ7TXGOeX6kMShehaBjo8SeAIDymax P3qvCvbDp88Nm1NmZ8GySVAbB9lfp7KtIesUipG0V1jS4ie76VuCSMHuhwIWBp1llQeC nrxLkw2B2FHWw6Ox35Pc5xLqcgum+/MFK/oy2ZjQvw/6szAik86V9a8aTJhNFU6p5s3n FiUmoAFrpQNz5SKjk/StaXtpuT+LDZ/4nDfQK1cSLZs5iKQKLcGnCPgD1cS3i3pj1kon NNeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xKOEoI7Hm/mV8lL3+W4D8xureKaix9tACEX3FcWsPqupT2Mto m8AVqAtgQkMhfD/JuSTUTxKfkBnVbMhZAw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz0FFuWcwwM6DDRXGzj7H0+N3sv7FUSUud7riNfozFQrNkVJlwX6cCYPypamTLnKo57O1CSpw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e5c2:b029:12b:c83d:f878 with SMTP id u2-20020a170902e5c2b029012bc83df878mr2972419plf.21.1627073246050; Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d20sm34470664pfn.219.2021.07.23.13.47.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 23 Jul 2021 13:47:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> <2CA853F0-E278-4A2F-A245-5B0BC4ED3CDB@gmail.com> <5c021fd9-8b2a-607a-e4a7-3730ffaf0dc1@gmail.com> <907CB59C-6A21-4E02-8645-5B0CFBBEEC1D@kuehlewind.net> <2969a321-0f3f-9d54-b993-1b1e87d1fb11@gmail.com> <876D237B-F934-4741-8BE8-A36513179A1D@kuehlewind.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <5c6ec1f8-7adb-08ae-cdf3-0a2f8ed46fc7@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:47:21 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <876D237B-F934-4741-8BE8-A36513179A1D@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Who decides about these tags? [was: Re: Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt)] X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 20:47:43 -0000 On 23-Jul-21 21:02, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 > On this point: >=20 >> On 23. Jul 2021, at 02:00, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>>> >>>> And, by the way, who decides, since this will be added after publica= tion? >>> >>> I have an open issue for this on github: >>> >>> https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/issues/7 >>> >>> However, I on purpose did not try to address it in the last revision.=20 I=20 >> believe having these tags is just part of the consensus process as the=20 rest of then document as well. As such similarly as for every other issue=20 that is raised by the IESG, the IESG can block the document until the iss= ue is addressed. Not sure we really need to say anything explicitly in th= e=20 >> draft? >> >> "See also" is a bit different because it doesn't relate to normative e= ffects in the way that "Amends" and "Extends" do. So it could affect any = stream, not just IESG-approved documents. I guess that means that the RFC=20 Editor is responsible. The old "Also RFCxxxx" designation that you find i= n the RFC index, starting with RFC29 and continuing at least through RFC2= 389, was certainly an RFC Editor decision. Possibly all of those should b= e changed to "See also=E2=80=9D? >=20 > I didn=E2=80=99t consider the RFC editor as an option here yet, also be= cause so far this proposal is scoped to the IETF stream. However, I also = don=E2=80=99t see a need to strive for completeness for the =E2=80=9CSee = also=E2=80=9D tags. My assumption is rather to be conservative in adding = it because if you add it too broadly it because less useful. Therefore ha= ving the authors or wg t decide about the =E2=80=9Csee also=E2=80=9D tag = is fine for me. >=20 > The draft explicitly discusses that there is no intention to change tag= s for existing drafts, as, to say it simply, that might be more effort th= at it=E2=80=99s worth it. In general, I agree. The "Also RFCxxxx" anomaly in the RFC index has alwa= ys annoyed me, because it is quite different from "Also BCPxxxx", "Also S= TDxxxx" and the old "Also FYIxxxx". If we do officially create "See also"=20 I will strongly recommend the RFC Editor to change all the old "Also RFCx= xxx" to "See also". But that is out of scope for your draft; sorry for th= e distraction. Brian From nobody Tue Jul 27 06:44:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45713A09BD for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 06:44:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m9oLGKCCcXzG for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E8CF3A09BE for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 06:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF4E5C019A for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:44:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=fTKE/um255o/t3k0FMBlgA5UAEp/7NI6I0FUoXpuo Q8=; b=gVlEKRDXbeLw4IHdZHztvb7YT/Y+TbW4IMMnTnvZ27/1sdEY+lYH67gXz ajoS/m23wzvJTNHbYYofZH++ZCcOlHm+HZGs4lfmEPXisvmVJK5a7rBoE03bu489 KoEaofmBQiTVGBm6F1ygl4PnBHWkjHxo+FoXZ6Yy3IQ+4c7hSgEi9j1SlbGhYW8z SW/+GGEH47Y7VTD3LWqm7dD35bk8nTfV6lRZpvpjVsFUG8t4uk9wOGN8ygKltvGc oF+cH+ccqj0TCLv7qOa3fC+gbrlqnsiLLgk9r9GwLA8qXN+LSahhf0wutqDu73CL xaUFdTY1z5l6+Orvdfg9ZJwKzgFvA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrgeejgdeivdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefheenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfefhueeuleelhf dtvdeuueelteduheevueetgffhleeludeggeekhfdthfdtkeejnecuffhomhgrihhnpehg ihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:44:44 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <14933f9f-9304-4429-384a-dbd696b94e1d@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:44:43 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:44:51 -0000 On 7/20/21 9:06 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > the SAA team has collected some updates and clarifications around their purpose and operation, and Dhruv has provided a PR to bcp45bis for them: > > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1/files > > Would this change be something the community would supportive of? I do not believe that the proposed changes are sufficient, and strongly object to the proposal in the cited PR request. I do fully agree with the need for an SAA, and IMO every deliberative body of significant importance needs such a role to maintain comity in discussions and (perhaps more importantly) keep them from going off the rails due to interpersonal disputes. However it is absolutely essential that this role be both independent of the leadership and narrowly constructed, so that the SAA does not and cannot be used to marginalize people whose input the leadership wishes to suppress. I strongly believe that the SAA role has been abused in the past in precisely this way, and that this has had, and may continue to have, a significant chilling effect on IETF's ability to serve as a consensus-making body for the benefit of the broader Internet community. Neither the IETF Chair nor the IESG should be choosing SAAs, nor should they be setting policy for SAAs. I would be fine with the SAAs being chosen by either the IAB or the Nomcom. The SAAs should strictly follow IETF Consensus as stated in BCP45 and other IETF Consensus documents. The policies should be relatively unambiguous, and uniformly interpreted without prejudice for or against any individual. So the SAAs should NOT be encouraged to "take into account the overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether particular postings are an aberration or typical". But neither should the SAAs' remedies be limited to restricting posting by a person or of a thread - lesser remedies should be available so that occasional inappropriate postings can be remedied without drastic action. All SAA actions (other than private feedback to an individual) should be recorded so that they are visible to the community. Keith From nobody Tue Jul 27 06:51:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051BD3A0A34 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kRbCtCLRC92d for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67A843A0A29 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 06:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FF95C01B0 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:51:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=tDT+O6r8QZaFjuyIknKlhFDfgljcIQUx6qlg9X5XM 3E=; b=UDRE8oGCtKi1I+HfyyWqD7fFUbuG7DCfGEkIphnojRlo36+CM/lXkddS1 yZMBIrn5fDGKNqTzncwTP9Cs1YnfavCbVfLOBxzBA2O7Uh+9f3ojBIXVVXSgPmrc oqKdjU2fksbg7FmvnzCTn8KmOCRpwqOwW74XNR0LqcDiUqaT2v7IIfSnXsRbSOcN Xo2aLTWlZGZkTkK8VDL2uLLvS27gyGz7zfYvjIGcyn0/hbDKAnMdy+I39kVQgc3Y uHqjmxlhchVJOATIdITkmuFPp10YW7NytuZHpRtW8eVe7LM6pd6KYaQTnSgVvCQc EchFDYolNhcxtNMDPdKHSEX6HLKiA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrgeejgdeigecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedtheefgf efgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkh dqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:51:13 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <8998f405-c687-258f-2712-7bdebc1a972f@network-heretics.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:51:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 13:51:20 -0000 On 7/22/21 1:36 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > I would not say that the draft is broken, but this episode clearly > exposes an interesting tension. Look at the progression. Draft authors > use GitHub to coordinate the editing of the document: fair, well > within everybody's idea of process. As the discussion goes on the > mailing list, draft authors capture key points of the discussion and > open corresponding issues on GitHub: again, fair, authors do need a > way to keep track of needed improvements. Draft authors prepare > updates and push them as PR: here again, fair, authors can the tools > to agree on the next of the next edits. But then we do have a big > tension. Some working group members will be very tempted to comment > directly on the issues and PR in the GitHub repo, because it seems > more efficient than pushing yet another email on the thread. Other > working group members point out that this is not the agreed process, > that all discussions should take place on the list. Insert comparison > with private email to draft authors, etc. Add the point that there are > usually many more draft contributors than the listed authors. > > This is a mess. I see why the process asks participants to not > shortcut the discussion on the mailing list. I also see that these > shortcuts are a very efficient way to save time and organize comments. > It comes down to personal habits. Software developers are very much at > ease using issues and PRs, and perceive the insistence on using email > as a form of hazing. Traditional protocol experts see these tools as a > way to evade process and cut corners. Blocking the tools will in the > long run exclude one class of participants. Allowing free use will > maybe disenfranchise another class of participants. Kinda blocking > while kinda allowing will just create a mess. > I agree with Christian's description of the situation.   I do not know of a good solution. In general, when a discussion is fragmented by any means, it becomes difficult for all participants to keep track of what's being said, more difficult to determine whether consensus exists or what it is.   Frequent interim meetings (whether in person or virtual) present similar problems. 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Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:15:27 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Keith Moore , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis Thread-Index: AQHXgxm3PwZWn+qurEevTVL8yUjwh6tXL8Hg Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:15:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> <8998f405-c687-258f-2712-7bdebc1a972f@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <8998f405-c687-258f-2712-7bdebc1a972f@network-heretics.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: network-heretics.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;network-heretics.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8aa9f99e-5996-42e8-ff03-08d95132e473 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LOYP265MB2285: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; 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Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:23:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> <8998f405-c687-258f-2712-7bdebc1a972f@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:22:28 -0700 Message-ID: To: Andrew Campling Cc: Keith Moore , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008bc28405c81fcc97" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:23:11 -0000 --0000000000008bc28405c81fcc97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:15 PM Andrew Campling wrote: > On Tue 22nd July 2021 at 14:51, Keith Moore > wrote: > > In general, when a discussion is fragmented by any means, it becomes > difficult for all participants to keep track of what's being said, more > difficult to determine whether consensus exists or what it is. Frequent > interim meetings (whether in person or virtual) present similar problems. > > +1 > > Issues relating to the use of GitHub continue to crop up on various > mailing lists, clearly current working practices are not satisfactory. > This seems like a good topic to raise yet again at the IETF Plenary > tomorrow. > Well, I agree that the current practices are not satisfactory, but that's because there are strong disagreements about what the best practices are, and so we have a compromise which doesn't fully satisfy anyone, that being the nature of compromise. -Ekr > Andrew > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000008bc28405c81fcc97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:15 PM Andr= ew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> wrote:
On Tue 22nd July 2021 at 14:51, K= eith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> wrote:
> In general, when a discussion is fragmented by any means, it becomes d= ifficult for all participants to keep track of what's being said, more = difficult to determine whether consensus exists or what it is. Frequent int= erim meetings (whether in person or virtual) present similar problems.

+1

Issues relating to the use of GitHub continue to crop up on various mailing= lists, clearly current working practices are not satisfactory.=C2=A0 This = seems like a good topic to raise yet again at the IETF Plenary tomorrow.=C2= =A0

Well, I agree that the current pra= ctices are not satisfactory, but that's because there are strong disagr= eements about what the best practices are, and so we have a compromise whic= h doesn't fully satisfy anyone, that being the nature of compromise.

-Ekr


Andrew
--
Gendispatch mailing list
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On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 10:25 PM Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi all, > As Mirja mentioned in her mail, I have gone over 500 recent RFCs > (8000-8500) to look at Updates relationships and characterize them. > Thanks for doing this. Out of these 500 there were 95 RFCs that updated other RFCs. Some of them > updated multiple RFCs and the total number of updated RFCs was 163. Then = I > went about trying to classify the Updates relationship into the different > kinds of update relationships described in our draft. Some of these were > fairly easy to classify but others required a fair bit of reading to gues= s > the intent of the authors/editors/WG (which by itself is a problem that > needs to be solved). There were quite a few cases that were subjective an= d > reasonable people could disagree on how to classify them > I think this is the key point, along with the fairly high degree of overlap (about 15 which both extend and amend). In my experience on the IESG, a lot of time was spent trying to determine precisely what tags should appear, far out of proportion to the actual value provided by those tags. Rather than try to draw ever finer distinctions, which seems like it will make that problem worse, I would instead propose we simply deprecate this all in favor of "See Also" (or no tags at all). -Ekr . If you see an RFC that you think is miscategorized on the sheet > (especially if you were an author/chair/AD) please do chime in. > > Overall there was a fairly even split between the Amending relationship > and the Extending relationship. 59 of the 95 RFCs ended up Amending the > =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFC(s) and 50 of them ended up Extending the = =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFCs (14 > of the 95 RFCs ended up doing both). There were very few (4) updating RFC= s > that fell into the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80=9D category but that is probab= ly explained by > the fairly conservative use of Updates. For the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80= =9D case it might be > better to look at non-updating RFC (It would be a fairly time consuming > exercise) to see if this tag is relevant. > > Please let us know if you have any questions or comments. I have also > uploaded the raw data to Google sheets in case you wanted to look (no > account needed to view and comment) at > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OY33xNuMXrkxs8sQau6rHEzeIhKya0Ufm= iINMc1uCK8/edit?usp=3Dsharing > > Thanks > Suresh > > On Jul 13, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind < > mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > as promised we revived draft-kuehlewind-update-tag and submitted a new > version yesterday. There are no substantial changes but there are some > editorial changes and a bit more text in the security consideration secti= on: > > - One part is about the need to have the same "kind" of consensus for > amendments as the original RFC had. This question came recently up for me > in another context and I added some thoughts. > > - I tried to reflect some of the discussion about risks of failure. I > personally believe that the worst thing that can happens is that this > change will not improve the situation but I don't think it will make it > worse. Therefore I would like to see this published as BCP. However, if > people would be more comfortable to run this as an experiment that would = be > doable as well and we can discuss the parameters of that (duration and > criteria for success/failure). More input on that point is definitely > welcome! > > Also we will update you in the next days with data on the analysis Suresh > did about the usage of the Updates tag so far. So if that is of interest > for you, please stay tuned and wait for another mail from us! > > Mirja and Suresh > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 12.07.21, 16:23, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > wrote: > > > A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-kuehlewind-update-tag > Revision: 04 > Title: Definition of new tags for relations between RFCs > Document date: 2021-07-12 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 9 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/ > Html: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04 > > Abstract: > An RFC can include a tag called "Updates" which can be used to link= a > new RFC to an existing RFC. On publication of such an RFC, the > existing RFC will include an additional metadata tag called "Update= d > by" which provides a link to the new RFC. However, this tag pair i= s > not well-defined and therefore it is currently used for multiple > different purposes, which leads to confusion about the actual meani= ng > of this tag and inconsistency in its use. > > This document recommends the discontinuation of the use of the > updates/updated by tag pair, and instead proposes three new tag pai= rs > that have well-defined meanings and use cases. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000a7af4f05c831e96e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Unfortunately, I cannot be at = the meeting....


On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 10:25 PM S= uresh Krishnan <suresh.kris= hnan@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
=C2=A0 = As Mirja mentioned in her mail, I have gone over 500 recent RFCs (8000-8500= ) to look at Updates relationships and characterize them.

Thanks for doing this.


Out of these 500 there were 95 RFCs that = updated other RFCs. Some of them updated multiple RFCs and the total number= of updated RFCs was 163. Then I went about trying to classify the Updates = relationship into the different kinds of update relationships described in = our draft. Some of these were fairly easy to classify but others required a= fair bit of reading to guess the intent of the authors/editors/WG (which b= y itself is a problem that needs to be solved). There were quite a few case= s that were subjective and reasonable people could disagree on how to class= ify them

I think this is the ke= y point, along with the fairly high degree of overlap (about 15 which both = extend and amend). In my experience on the IESG, a lot of time was spent tr= ying to determine precisely what tags should appear, far out of proportion = to the actual value provided by those tags. Rather than try to draw ever fi= ner distinctions, which seems like it will make that problem worse, I would= instead propose we simply deprecate this all in favor of "See Also&qu= ot; (or no tags at all).

-Ekr

=

. If you see=C2=A0an RFC that you thin= k is miscategorized on the sheet (especially if you were an author/chair/AD= ) please do chime in.

Overall there was a fairly e= ven split between the Amending relationship and the Extending relationship.= 59 of the 95 RFCs ended up Amending the =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFC(s) a= nd 50 of them ended up Extending the =E2=80=9CUpdated=E2=80=9D RFCs (14 of = the 95 RFCs ended up doing both). There were very few (4) updating RFCs tha= t fell into the =E2=80=9CSee Also=E2=80=9D category but that is probably ex= plained by the fairly conservative use of Updates. For the =E2=80=9CSee Als= o=E2=80=9D case it might be better to look at non-updating RFC (It would be= a fairly time consuming exercise) to see if this tag is relevant.

Please let us know if you have any questions or comments. = I have also uploaded the raw data to Google sheets in case you wanted to lo= ok (no account needed to view and comment) at

Thanks
Suresh

On Jul 13, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Mirja= Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi = all,

as promised we revived draft-kuehlewind-update-tag and submitte= d a new version yesterday. There are no substantial changes but there are s= ome editorial changes and a bit more text in the security consideration sec= tion:

- One part is about the need to have the same "kind"= of consensus for amendments as the original RFC had. This question came re= cently up for me in another context and I added some thoughts.

- I t= ried to reflect some of the discussion about risks of failure. I personally= believe that the worst thing that can happens is that this change will not= improve the situation but I don't think it will make it worse. Therefo= re I would like to see this published as BCP. However, if people would be m= ore comfortable to run this as an experiment that would be doable as well a= nd we can discuss the parameters of that (duration and criteria for success= /failure). More input on that point is definitely welcome!

Also we w= ill update you in the next days with data on the analysis Suresh did about = the usage of the Updates tag so far. So if that is of interest for you, ple= ase stay tuned and wait for another mail from us!

Mirja and Suresh



=EF=BB=BFOn 12.07.21, 16:23, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" = <internet-= drafts@ietf.org> wrote:


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0A new version = of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0has been s= uccessfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to the
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0IETF repository.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Name: dra= ft-kuehlewind-update-tag
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Revision: 04
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title: Def= inition of new tags for relations between RFCs
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Docume= nt date: 2021-07-12
=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0Group: Individual Submission
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0Pages: 9
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt
=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag/
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Html: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/dr= aft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.html
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Htmlized: =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-update-tag
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Diff= : =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Abstract:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0An RFC can include a tag called "Updates" which can be used= to link a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0new RFC to an existing R= FC.=C2=A0 On publication of such an RFC, the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0existing RFC will include an additional metadata tag called &qu= ot;Updated
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0by" which provides = a link to the new RFC.=C2=A0 However, this tag pair is
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0not well-defined and therefore it is currently used fo= r multiple
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0different purposes, whic= h leads to confusion about the actual meaning
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0of this tag and inconsistency in its use.

=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This document recommends the discontinuation of the= use of the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0updates/updated by tag = pair, and instead proposes three new tag pairs
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0that have well-defined meanings and use cases.



<= br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The IETF Secretariat




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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2021 18:59:01.0028 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: i5irtBfrdB8TAhQBMdocIpxwX+hQ/RfcSy/4j9qa1MIdhP51HaBCQtIVmYo5Akox X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR02MB4871 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 18:59:13 -0000 --N8cXNrYvFARNVDBRCk9mlhFasgkuWKChW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="2zqJlyssfiJDLI3ur1sJoi6CQ4TVkgEwK"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eric Rescorla , Suresh Krishnan Cc: rfc-interest , GENDISPATCH List , Mirja Kuehlewind Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) References: <162609981716.28703.5808701282973062214@ietfa.amsl.com> <25016862-A92C-462C-BC1E-27340F113D6D@ericsson.com> <3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --2zqJlyssfiJDLI3ur1sJoi6CQ4TVkgEwK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D33B5FC7178FDE7768EFBBCD" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D33B5FC7178FDE7768EFBBCD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 28/07/2021 17:59, Eric Rescorla wrote: > In my experience on the IESG, a lot > of time was spent trying to determine precisely what tags should appear= , > far out of proportion to the actual value provided by those tags. Rathe= r > than try to draw ever finer distinctions, which seems like it will make= > that problem worse, I would instead propose we simply deprecate this al= l in > favor of "See Also" (or no tags at all). I agree with ekr on the above. There is another option, with which I'm fine, but that seems to bug a lot of IETFers - we could ignore the problem and leave things in their current imperfect state. 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<3A27E851-545B-412E-8047-C495818FA56B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:02:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Suresh Krishnan , rfc-interest , GENDISPATCH List , Mirja Kuehlewind Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000158a8505c833a4a2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Some data about Updates in recent RFCs (was Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-update-tag-04.txt) X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:04:30 -0000 --000000000000158a8505c833a4a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 11:59 AM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 28/07/2021 17:59, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > In my experience on the IESG, a lot > > of time was spent trying to determine precisely what tags should appear, > > far out of proportion to the actual value provided by those tags. Rather > > than try to draw ever finer distinctions, which seems like it will make > > that problem worse, I would instead propose we simply deprecate this all > in > > favor of "See Also" (or no tags at all). > > I agree with ekr on the above. There is another option, > with which I'm fine, but that seems to bug a lot of > IETFers - we could ignore the problem and leave things > in their current imperfect state. > I could also live with this, especially if we tacitly agreed to chill out about the contents of "Updates" :) -Ekr > Cheers, > S. > --000000000000158a8505c833a4a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 11:59 AM Step= hen Farrell <stephen.farrel= l@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

On 28/07/2021 17:59, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> In my experience on the IESG, a lot
> of time was spent trying to determine precisely what tags should appea= r,
> far out of proportion to the actual value provided by those tags. Rath= er
> than try to draw ever finer distinctions, which seems like it will mak= e
> that problem worse, I would instead propose we simply deprecate this a= ll in
> favor of "See Also" (or no tags at all).

I agree with ekr on the above. There is another option,
with which I'm fine, but that seems to bug a lot of
IETFers - we could ignore the problem and leave things
in their current imperfect state.

I cou= ld also live with this, especially if we tacitly agreed to chill out about = the contents of "Updates" :)

-Ekr
<= div>

Cheers,
S.
--000000000000158a8505c833a4a2-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 02:46:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6CF3A1B81 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5AEYTuj6fgBC for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96BF63A1B7D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 02:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1002::343] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1002:0:0:0:343]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 16T9jf0R087192 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:45:42 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1627551942; bh=dmbfakpohu0l89OUv8VBqRYQu/Rl4w7QL//7xBnZEVo=; h=To:From:Subject:Date:From; b=q5HoI7u+E3sSBw2XrZSiEEO2mJUx9M05JsqsvpC6Fo08oIXcYGkRaFn0ounmm+L1X BGWZSFdDi3szAElbyFiJ2TYj7MZpxAeZUoBeY6qsPDPBJGNEf9rQXa7KZbvYudC/En 4Gg1OuRLbeYnPhK51iz2wPBtImaYTeea7qL0wf0o= To: gendispatch@ietf.org, Pete Resnick From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:45:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hb2UXeuA7CXGzdoFUOoyQNS8J3f09P4Ma" Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:45:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hb2UXeuA7CXGzdoFUOoyQNS8J3f09P4Ma Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cGMCX4XoEwsv2xrbDT30IwVMHRDT2P5zA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: gendispatch@ietf.org, Pete Resnick Message-ID: Subject: some thoughts about ietf communication --cGMCX4XoEwsv2xrbDT30IwVMHRDT2P5zA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D9285D1800783EDDE343B7C1" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D9285D1800783EDDE343B7C1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF=20 needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the=20 gendispatch list and see what people think.=C2=A0 At the end of the day, = I am=20 aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a = draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative=20 to this (cough, Pete).=C2=A0 If nobody else is interested, or lots of peo= ple=20 think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, = this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it.=C2=A0 But what i= s=20 written below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint. FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below in = Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main. Mostly so that=20 all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a = draft if there is interest. The Principles * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting. * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important question for the community to consider. * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facilitated; and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration. * There should be some outcome.=C2=A0 The outcome may be a mailing list= , a BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback from a body such as the IESG or IAB.=C2=A0 The outcome shouldn't be an immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes to effect that change. * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because there may not be anything important to discuss. * The community should decide what's important.=C2=A0 This is a bit of = a chicken and egg issue, though.=C2=A0 Sometimes, an issue must get tos= sed around before its importance is understood by others.=C2=A0 What's important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue is important and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others. How does this differ from *dispatch? There are two major differences: 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but simply an important question. Possible Examples * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past) * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future) * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past) * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable? (potential future?) * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and future?= ) The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you might=20 expect at an in person plenary. Modalities * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions.=C2=A0 I th= ink we've all seen bad interactions in email,=C2=A0 and we seem to do bet= ter in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, quite frankly, even if that involves meetecho.=C2=A0 perhaps a "discussion"= might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did consultations toward the end of her tenor. * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point that a plenary discussion can occur.=C2=A0 Perhaps Github could provide us t= his opportunity. * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and help interested parties develop their views *prior* to a plenary discussion. * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *short* position papers.=C2=A0 Again, not email. Comments? Eliot --------------D9285D1800783EDDE343B7C1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the gendispatch list and see what people think.=C2=A0 At the end= of the day, I am aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative to this (cough, Pete).=C2=A0 If nobody = else is interested, or lots of people think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it.=C2=A0 But what is written below is= meant as a starting point, not an endpoint.

FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-pl= en/tree/main.=C2=A0 Mostly so that all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a draft if there is interest.

The Principles

  • Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting.
  • Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important question for the community to consider.
  • Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facilitated; and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration.
  • There should be some outcome.=C2=A0 The outcome may be a mailin= g list, a BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback from a body such as the IESG or IAB.=C2=A0 The outcome shouldn't be an immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes to effect that change.
  • Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because there may not be anything important to discuss.
  • The community should decide what's important.=C2=A0 This is a b= it of a chicken and egg issue, though.=C2=A0 Sometimes, an issue mus= t get tossed around before its importance is understood by others.=C2=A0 What's important is that just because Eliot thinks = an issue is important and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others.

How does this differ from *dispatch?

There are two major differences:

  1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance.
  2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but simply an important question.

Possible Examples

  • How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past)
    =
  • Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future)
  • What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past)
  • What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable? (potential future?)
  • Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and future?)

The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you might expect at an in person plenary.

Modalities

  • EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions.=C2=A0= I think we've all seen bad interactions in email,=C2=A0 and we seem= to do better in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, quite frankly, even if that involves meetecho.=C2=A0 per= haps a "discussion" might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did consultations toward the end of her tenor.
  • We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point that a plenary discussion can occur.=C2=A0 Perhaps Github could provide us this opportunity.
  • IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and help interested parties develop their views prior to a plenary discussion.
  • A good way to identify those interested parties would be sho= rt position papers.=C2=A0 Again, not email.

Comments?

Eliot

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dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 62-2_V_fYKGw for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0F103A2454 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::6] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:6]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 16TELHj2091118 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21:17 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1627568477; bh=haLNJ0JqoN9rlkywrFEiHRQnnybKPOrvIqyuFS+BbLo=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CzhDnOOqKx5wbQP6aJzwcveHQalTKr4SuaHI9HMr5VmnyTZjrHKHNILveByRvZGdb N83+5hQyW0pFrNlxtSYfFhZd9ByrIDeuXpd6AdUVNG1jCZ5PTlUg4ZduS+Jm/CEKWF RaFjBKS5vqq8jAqtDB71Uglr5qFntVePiZiYB1w4= To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Pete Resnick References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <8d5bee10-2cc7-ac91-505e-5634cbcaabbe@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21:16 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1gxKz3FUGQdK9oIxTugnCHAD6BG1sq2Qo" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:21:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --1gxKz3FUGQdK9oIxTugnCHAD6BG1sq2Qo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="mNJqkCIEVbS789geZzFpqdLavs5S0ygY2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Pete Resnick Message-ID: <8d5bee10-2cc7-ac91-505e-5634cbcaabbe@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication References: In-Reply-To: --mNJqkCIEVbS789geZzFpqdLavs5S0ygY2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FF87EDACB7B6CC14A9755466" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FF87EDACB7B6CC14A9755466 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Rich.=C2=A0 Mostly I was thinking more about how the old ietf lis= t=20 function should evolve.=C2=A0 What if we want to have plenary discussions= in=20 between big meetings?=C2=A0 What I outlined might feel to some almost lik= e a=20 thematic workshop, but with an open invitation to participate. On 29.07.21 16:12, Salz, Rich wrote: > > I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too=20 > easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line= =2E > > I think think that the plenary that happened a 12 hours ago, as well=20 > as the other =E2=80=9Cremote only=E2=80=9D ones, went much better. I at= tribute it to=20 > the fact that getting up to speak was much harder, but maybe there=E2=80= =99s=20 > another reason. > > --------------FF87EDACB7B6CC14A9755466 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks, Rich.=C2=A0 Mostly I was thinking more about how the old i= etf list function should evolve.=C2=A0 What if we want to have plenary discussions in between big meetings?=C2=A0 What I outlined might fe= el to some almost like a thematic workshop, but with an open invitation to participate.

On 29.07.21 16:12, Salz, Rich wrote:

I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line.

I think think that the plenary that happened a 12 hours ago, as well as the other =E2=80=9Cremote only=E2=80=9D ones, went m= uch better. I attribute it to the fact that getting up to speak was much harder, but maybe there=E2=80=99s another reason.

=C2=A0


--------------FF87EDACB7B6CC14A9755466-- --mNJqkCIEVbS789geZzFpqdLavs5S0ygY2-- --1gxKz3FUGQdK9oIxTugnCHAD6BG1sq2Qo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmECuVwFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMF Jwf/QsYcCcSCbQWtaEj1YhhXLD/Y9EqleQi5tKQhCAQLO0hSRCOTb77SstfFVwVgo6WfT71zG8Qb qolxgsHK6RqH6XPn1kDrM060eOA9oVtAfJQkBjuRIaPQgcEvWorFyyCurF/brV7kClyqhwMaBqWA hF3QIGqUSh+PUEzVRILs+VQFE6jdpGJZxTkF30LhcAHK6zCl6uixb/XL3CIXMsOY6ZUFzjbMesDB +CmUDGhE9M3KiOsdonGz6BaXnw1fxdQVJ5HFUGTLMiBqnrYBPTc6UhfFEwnWelCzNQ903hTMw9Tu XToqRUbqYkwSl1M+IjixZGNw3h9M7SdZGRVQ9W6iXg== =s6Yq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1gxKz3FUGQdK9oIxTugnCHAD6BG1sq2Qo-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 07:37:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47513A24CB for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KbaqtYrspOt2 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9D4A3A24CA for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0QX00UJRBGMCJ5@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:37:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([69.12.173.8]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0QX00063CGK0QU@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net ([69.12.173.8] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:36:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:37:22 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: To: "Salz, Rich" , Eliot Lear , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , Pete Resnick Message-id: <93dfcdb3-3d32-6ef5-70f9-57a56f9aaa40@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_l0+H+gnWSCEJVYZo3wPPLg)" Content-language: en-US User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=69.12.173.8) X-PMAS-External-Auth: 69-12-173-8.static.dsltransport.net [69.12.173.8] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210725] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:37:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_l0+H+gnWSCEJVYZo3wPPLg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT   Rich,   It is very easy to misconstrue a statement that says that the biggest problem is when it's too easy for the general public to speak and how it's much better when getting up to speak was much harder.   In fact, it's very easy to take that as elitist and a call to clamp down on the free speech of others. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way but it sure sounds that way to this tin ear. Maybe try and rephrase?   Dan. On 7/29/21 7:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too > easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line. > > I think think that the plenary that happened a 12 hours ago, as well > as the other “remote only” ones, went much better. I attribute it to > the fact that getting up to speak was much harder, but maybe there’s > another reason. > > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius --Boundary_(ID_l0+H+gnWSCEJVYZo3wPPLg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT
  Rich,

  It is very easy to misconstrue a statement that says that the biggest
problem is when it's too easy for the general public to speak and how
it's much better when getting up to speak was much harder.

  In fact, it's very easy to take that as elitist and a call to clamp
down on the free speech of others. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way
but it sure sounds that way to this tin ear. Maybe try and rephrase?

  Dan.

On 7/29/21 7:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:

I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line.

I think think that the plenary that happened a 12 hours ago, as well as the other “remote only” ones, went much better. I attribute it to the fact that getting up to speak was much harder, but maybe there’s another reason.

 



-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
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Thu, 29 Jul 2021 08:14:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1627571653; bh=ribToT822D5Vk5Ic6Xm5b2Zd3nCRyacE+a8WRwfEPm4=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ETKkIPlkJb2466cEn9hSjUE51zyX2eCGIRB9VHILNZSEXqqwjm19f48jIlaesp9UC XHxt3fx6D7cAi1SzABrIeqck1eP6FLOg7hPs9NeKK1xfYO1cMMRoGos4jZIFTpMmri mCC25H2RYZWQMZjNSDoC9N1JtK2SqL9J4zdAJ7MQ= X-Quarantine-ID: <6BhPWK7OZ_uX> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GbDZs0Qckz1nwXC; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 08:14:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:14:11 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:14:19 -0000 I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important purpose for the plenary. Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not. That is why, even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the plenary to be important. Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on an issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know what a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable outcome during that time. I do not see how that would fit with what you have below. Yours, Joel On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, > > As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF > needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the > gendispatch list and see what people think.  At the end of the day, I am > aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a > draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative > to this (cough, Pete).  If nobody else is interested, or lots of people > think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, > this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it.  But what is > written below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint. > > FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below in > Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main. Mostly so that > all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a > draft if there is interest. > > The Principles > > * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be > reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting. > * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important > question for the community to consider. > * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facilitated; > and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration. > * There should be some outcome.  The outcome may be a mailing list, a > BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback from > a body such as the IESG or IAB.  The outcome shouldn't be an > immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to > focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes to > effect that change. > * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because there > may not be anything important to discuss. > * The community should decide what's important.  This is a bit of a > chicken and egg issue, though.  Sometimes, an issue must get tossed > around before its importance is understood by others.  What's > important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue is important > and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others. > > How does this differ from *dispatch? > > There are two major differences: > > 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. > 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but > simply an important question. > > Possible Examples > > * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past) > * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular > threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future) > * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past) > * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable? > (potential future?) > * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and future?) > > The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you might > expect at an in person plenary. > > Modalities > > * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions.  I think > we've all seen bad interactions in email,  and we seem to do better > in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, quite > frankly, even if that involves meetecho.  perhaps a "discussion" > might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did consultations > toward the end of her tenor. > * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point that a > plenary discussion can occur.  Perhaps Github could provide us this > opportunity. > * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and > help interested parties develop their views *prior* to a plenary > discussion. > * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *short* > position papers.  Again, not email. > > Comments? > > Eliot > > From nobody Thu Jul 29 09:02:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA603A0926 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hDv24QDdLv54 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0FFC3A0924 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id n21so4040789wmq.5 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=+1N1iHcUgvEiQ/6LDcoOd7k0TdsaPZbCUtBLH2wSiSI=; b=Ld34gOt8DDMto5AUqrIR/NguQ6WoGHl2+8u43lrxWmF7f49DIKUdBZ1O/b667E6ZBT TJZtSJVsRSLsbkR81eyk+nv2IxFlsX4WT3UkMYM3Mo6qUGjxd6EdN5bN/cborljrtKv/ YPYlQsFy5IONBx+18JaRBNQABRHr4UiSmNEomOpc9gaoUx8LYk5jGttd8+UCWtGFfCAs X41y4XwUtDU1oEzUfIQBpINFIaLHjth3uYe2+7R6PswAPfoo0CEot8kBOvj0F9+kUhD7 pC36yG7aJ2HtGSV6hsMSrB8P2qZh8HCB0nsQsDb/xlNI2HiziC0aemO29EHXl/XWIUWC e3nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=+1N1iHcUgvEiQ/6LDcoOd7k0TdsaPZbCUtBLH2wSiSI=; b=b32XcQnY6GU0CMbmU4W4G7GnWTY7Bq6wjYofQTvuMpSpoKl+iRXYz85KoxsVaC5lmC X9xX2B8DDUHf6sKOFNrin7ct+74/hm4do0gGnNj4fKmlItLobjs3NjtyV/r+mmXudCDD iifirWynYmsE4CoO6HCLRy3lWxmD4M7aUlIrrgg2Wje0vKhnks3cOy7fklbydWDpMafw ZxrKdUjN0M/QU06ZNQF8BHos5QGveu9SbKvWJjJJdMcQHI9Imq3qV0GKU6Dyh3j0Vxfr 6tZ+acNkADCIarHVmY28xxoR9xzcta+yUTBV9/1plNG90HzNahoCqrSBSe2OMh8yZwT1 fS0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330VDL3anhvVyMUWmYapKoKiR7c1IV4vlQ3ctN5F2L8yJBe55s5 ju3JhQB42c00BS06LmzBEMw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtlKdB3TRsaGA1yuLqm/wy+7e1dQfEkOL0tKACQpV1YV4fl0Eo4V2f4DZSdNtM38a63EDc4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c5c7:: with SMTP id n7mr5657380wmk.5.1627574526019; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:904e:d830:2ae7:6ebd? ([2601:647:5a00:659:904e:d830:2ae7:6ebd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x18sm3949106wrw.19.2021.07.29.09.02.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0D2CC4A7-ACE5-4852-8FA9-759AD48686FB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:02:02 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Eliot Lear , gendispatch@ietf.org To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:02:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0D2CC4A7-ACE5-4852-8FA9-759AD48686FB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joel, > On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important = purpose for the plenary. >=20 > Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, = whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not. That is = why, even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion = of the plenary to be important. I agree. One very important purpose of the plenary is for the community = to speak to our leadership and for them to listen. Bob >=20 > Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on an = issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know what = a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable outcome = during that time. >=20 > I do not see how that would fit with what you have below. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi, >> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF = needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the = gendispatch list and see what people think. At the end of the day, I am = aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a = draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative = to this (cough, Pete). If nobody else is interested, or lots of people = think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, = this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it. But what is = written below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint. >> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below = in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main. Mostly so = that all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned = into a draft if there is interest. >> The Principles >> * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be >> reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting. >> * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important >> question for the community to consider. >> * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facilitated; >> and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration. >> * There should be some outcome. The outcome may be a mailing list, = a >> BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback = from >> a body such as the IESG or IAB. The outcome shouldn't be an >> immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to >> focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes = to >> effect that change. >> * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because = there >> may not be anything important to discuss. >> * The community should decide what's important. This is a bit of a >> chicken and egg issue, though. Sometimes, an issue must get = tossed >> around before its importance is understood by others. What's >> important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue is important >> and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others. >> How does this differ from *dispatch? >> There are two major differences: >> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. >> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but >> simply an important question. >> Possible Examples >> * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past) >> * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular >> threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future) >> * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past) >> * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable? >> (potential future?) >> * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and = future?) >> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you = might expect at an in person plenary. >> Modalities >> * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions. I = think >> we've all seen bad interactions in email, and we seem to do = better >> in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, = quite >> frankly, even if that involves meetecho. perhaps a "discussion" >> might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did = consultations >> toward the end of her tenor. >> * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point that = a >> plenary discussion can occur. Perhaps Github could provide us = this >> opportunity. >> * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and >> help interested parties develop their views *prior* to a plenary >> discussion. >> * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *short* >> position papers. Again, not email. >> Comments? >> Eliot >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_0D2CC4A7-ACE5-4852-8FA9-759AD48686FB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmEC0PoACgkQrut0EXfn u6hSrAf/VjhXhbV/8Q48fdul/Cu38ShKbdmfRlJiGcOI42GDjym4uK1TEV0zup7c BRaj8RsH+d5M7ODYn1DZzUU9LSUNMsExhHyKYRgcOTGc0m9AJC0NFEPM7gI+tPPn j2/GrkdHfOFDvyH0V8oM33NEJwR/ndT7UiNqGMf+Vv+H3tzKaNS8YVb/X0YvDI3P HZpD2ls6Bl621X38z1juhsWQJ1yM8iv/168jn9X4hwvMFBz8oR9WYl5uVUL3Yeiy E3wezwj4EsvCWgtRMxPtPsI2rE1xUgqxXRu4fPivjqCGJHYafxX711yEiupAkGMW 2Owz50q1K70vRojKztgMgWPMd0i+jA== =+00G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0D2CC4A7-ACE5-4852-8FA9-759AD48686FB-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 09:13:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3591A3A0AB1 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:13:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1N-l6cR0pBk for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 251B63A0AB2 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id f6so2029288ioc.6 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:13:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NFntPdkcp6fFYTp4IowyUz0uL3//hUQNTjIecr/IxsM=; b=TgaF4JZhLyezUqnyS2Mkju2BaWSqQKbOWufY3Py9zxWGx1uXPYQsxl+Em5HcsJA1zO hRpP8pLGNlCqROhRGQ2xYQhFHqLmwKJIp5vaL/bWd+V2O8QUPCcwRVJ9XArKTPsGxn5v GIWCYc7uTNandzbB1qUlMF9jg/4uHgNkVRXnibDEHyHI81R3jZ+dyYCRUgCPgEVjrt0C +4P9ZHPNUkedgG96xTDSQaYk5f7Y6RSDDQe1C1iz6y29PdpULdC/izTxnovUqctDa7cC kfRRP48WNc5HxRcadPRw9BpjEaXEJtL9zPBkZc/Z0RMe1X3qMDMkcdrS8wjHRvLV8Iyz T2PQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NFntPdkcp6fFYTp4IowyUz0uL3//hUQNTjIecr/IxsM=; b=Iq//8iavr+BvjSHQWY8kUB6+U2P56lx2mb0dq8lmQaWhg7yW7J4yLal8sLphFWIqPU vbzLknEAPhA8V1t5CYf9FyJqcj3bYno7Bu6/IshI5vnFS4dVIj8iU16pRqaLZPgkWZ3u sDOA+Sp+B7hKKHLQWm4UIp+A4PV8UwNqwmNa5JwG7EBJnbwyifX18gL7Nia4NzPQdB4B 73eBKAwoWDNKT8ZCceFXVBi1nMwjiWJCoyMNReGlhGmcrxONg9zLABJZjLkXAiUOzqO7 /Hpk6AWLdw+aO5Hu2RYCieHZXfkyvvE8HYseKqPiy+vhAW+oL7xpZPWfMhVxHg0KsZqz S3Ww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530CWvN21KVljjL7FA2v1/8YoQuaUAXl6zF2YrTk2btiK6EyI7Ib dpMFtarN6phXgSrjH3i4o6b0C9xkjdW56AcvVXDb4A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCgMQTzXCgGjb77IczgAIUFQ3HnjwEcRSfFxUlNeNmChgUOftMlqj0PSUmATNkNow+TnHiu82cfmIu4pdzB/0= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:818b:: with SMTP id u11mr4664048ion.43.1627575181439; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:13:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:12:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000890a7e05c8456044" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:13:22 -0000 --000000000000890a7e05c8456044 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Bob Hinden wrote: > Joel, > > > On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important > purpose for the plenary. > > > > Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether > the leadership thinks the issue is important or not. That is why, even > though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the > plenary to be important. > > I agree. One very important purpose of the plenary is for the community > to speak to our leadership and for them to listen. > I 100% agree. While it might be worth thinking about how to make that part more productive, it seems to me to be the one non-optional part. -Ekr Bob > > > > > > Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on an > issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know what a > reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable outcome > during that time. > > > > I do not see how that would fit with what you have below. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Hi, > >> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF > needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the > gendispatch list and see what people think. At the end of the day, I am > aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a > draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative to > this (cough, Pete). If nobody else is interested, or lots of people think > that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this > discussion will be the last you hear from me on it. But what is written > below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint. > >> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below > in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main. Mostly so that > all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a > draft if there is interest. > >> The Principles > >> * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be > >> reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting. > >> * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important > >> question for the community to consider. > >> * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facilitated; > >> and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration. > >> * There should be some outcome. The outcome may be a mailing list, a > >> BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback from > >> a body such as the IESG or IAB. The outcome shouldn't be an > >> immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to > >> focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes to > >> effect that change. > >> * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because there > >> may not be anything important to discuss. > >> * The community should decide what's important. This is a bit of a > >> chicken and egg issue, though. Sometimes, an issue must get tossed > >> around before its importance is understood by others. What's > >> important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue is important > >> and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others. > >> How does this differ from *dispatch? > >> There are two major differences: > >> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. > >> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but > >> simply an important question. > >> Possible Examples > >> * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past) > >> * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular > >> threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future) > >> * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past) > >> * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable? > >> (potential future?) > >> * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and > future?) > >> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you might > expect at an in person plenary. > >> Modalities > >> * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions. I think > >> we've all seen bad interactions in email, and we seem to do better > >> in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, quite > >> frankly, even if that involves meetecho. perhaps a "discussion" > >> might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did consultations > >> toward the end of her tenor. > >> * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point that a > >> plenary discussion can occur. Perhaps Github could provide us this > >> opportunity. > >> * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and > >> help interested parties develop their views *prior* to a plenary > >> discussion. > >> * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *short* > >> position papers. Again, not email. > >> Comments? > >> Eliot > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000890a7e05c8456044 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Bob H= inden <bob.hinden@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Joel,=

> On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>
> I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important pu= rpose for the plenary.
>
> Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, wheth= er the leadership thinks the issue is important or not.=C2=A0 That is why, = even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the p= lenary to be important.

I agree.=C2=A0 One very important purpose of the plenary is for the communi= ty to speak to our leadership and for them to listen.
=
I 100% agree. While it might be worth thinking about how to = make that part more productive, it seems to me to be the one non-optional p= art.

-Ekr

Bob


>
> Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on an = issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know what a r= easonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable outcome durin= g that time.
>
> I do not see how that would fit with what you have below.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Hi,
>> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IE= TF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the gend= ispatch list and see what people think.=C2=A0 At the end of the day, I am a= iming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a dra= ft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative to thi= s (cough, Pete).=C2=A0 If nobody else is interested, or lots of people thin= k that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this d= iscussion will be the last you hear from me on it.=C2=A0 But what is writte= n below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint.
>> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of th= e below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/= tree/main. Mostly so that all the below can be modified, substituted, e= tc, and later turned into a draft if there is interest.
>> The Principles
>>=C2=A0 * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and sho= uld be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting.=
>>=C2=A0 * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an import= ant
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 question for the community to consider.
>>=C2=A0 * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and facil= itated;
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the plenary discussion should be of finite durati= on.
>>=C2=A0 * There should be some outcome.=C2=A0 The outcome may be a m= ailing list, a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or= feedback from
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a body such as the IESG or IAB.=C2=A0 The outcome sho= uldn't be an
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 immediate policy change, but if there is interest, so= me means to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 focus the discussion that might later use our existin= g processes to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 effect that change.
>>=C2=A0 * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, bec= ause there
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may not be anything important to discuss.
>>=C2=A0 * The community should decide what's important.=C2=A0 Th= is is a bit of a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chicken and egg issue, though.=C2=A0 Sometimes, an is= sue must get tossed
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 around before its importance is understood by others.= =C2=A0 What's
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue = is important
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to othe= rs.
>> How does this differ from *dispatch?
>> There are two major differences:
>> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance.
>> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, b= ut
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 simply an important question.
>> Possible Examples
>>=C2=A0 * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past= )
>>=C2=A0 * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address part= icular
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential = future)
>>=C2=A0 * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past) >>=C2=A0 * What sort of working group working methods should be accep= table?
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (potential future?)
>>=C2=A0 * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past = and future?)
>> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what = you might expect at an in person plenary.
>> Modalities
>>=C2=A0 * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions.= =C2=A0 I think
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 we've all seen bad interactions in email,=C2=A0 a= nd we seem to do better
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other= 9;s company, quite
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 frankly, even if that involves meetecho.=C2=A0 perhap= s a "discussion"
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather di= d consultations
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the end of her tenor.
>>=C2=A0 * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the po= int that a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 plenary discussion can occur.=C2=A0 Perhaps Github co= uld provide us this
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 opportunity.
>>=C2=A0 * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead i= t), and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 help interested parties develop their views *prior* t= o a plenary
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussion.
>>=C2=A0 * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *= short*
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 position papers.=C2=A0 Again, not email.
>> Comments?
>> Eliot
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
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--000000000000890a7e05c8456044-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 09:15:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE7F3A0AD8 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zvFaCFG_mbpx for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 449B73A0A2D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::6] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:6]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 16TGFEGK092329 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:15:15 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1627575316; bh=MkMh6rxlNuOoaY76ejuikmqN2x7mehL2tzEC80segc8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=NZbtQlRkqU8WLAXi8RxQFA+XXavRtlbtIjz9d80bu96aVMZ6DUOCpNNEzs0zKuNks 9oOAfq2eOLydkrS1U+oXBoKs9WfpUKlW0Xp3ExtS+OJvBUP61DfAUTjhqzzgV3OwzS G2zmrPACpcAiE1llougsR1oFGiPjZupqbHYreO4M= To: Eric Rescorla , Bob Hinden Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <0652cac2-e4e2-98bd-eebd-e0dbcd9afe88@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:15:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xY9i0bjqZ7GGWT8q3f5l8vhcfYGrhsI8Q" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:15:32 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xY9i0bjqZ7GGWT8q3f5l8vhcfYGrhsI8Q Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="mUQS5NsleBBUytBMbMQrtvAjOY9P2Y6Ny"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Eric Rescorla , Bob Hinden Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: <0652cac2-e4e2-98bd-eebd-e0dbcd9afe88@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication References: In-Reply-To: --mUQS5NsleBBUytBMbMQrtvAjOY9P2Y6Ny Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FB3AB4E6A2D93FBC927E402C" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FB3AB4E6A2D93FBC927E402C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29.07.21 18:12, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Bob Hinden > wrote: > > Joel, > > > On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one > important purpose for the plenary. > > > > Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, > whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not.=C2=A0 = That > is why, even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic > portion of the plenary to be important. > > I agree.=C2=A0 One very important purpose of the plenary is for the= > community to speak to our leadership and for them to listen. > > > I 100% agree. While it might be worth thinking about how to make that=20 > part more productive, it seems to me to be the one non-optional part. So do I.=C2=A0 As I wrote in the proposal, there is a bit of a chicken an= d=20 egg problem here.=C2=A0 I just view that as something to work on Eliot > > -Ekr > > Bob > > > > > > Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives > on an issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do > not know what a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at > a reasonable outcome during that time. > > > > I do not see how that would fit with what you have below. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Hi, > >> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the > IETF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out > to the gendispatch list and see what people think.=C2=A0 At the end= of > the day, I am aiming for an experiment, and might write this or > something else up in a draft with others, if others are interested > in this or some alternative to this (cough, Pete).=C2=A0 If nobody = else > is interested, or lots of people think that trying something new > for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this discussion will be > the last you hear from me on it.=C2=A0 But what is written below is= > meant as a starting point, not an endpoint. > >> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the > below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main > . Mostly so that all > the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into > a draft if there is interest. > >> The Principles > >>=C2=A0 * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and s= hould be > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reserved for important issues that are cross-cuttin= g. > >>=C2=A0 * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an impo= rtant > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 question for the community to consider. > >>=C2=A0 * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and > facilitated; > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the plenary discussion should be of finite dura= tion. > >>=C2=A0 * There should be some outcome.=C2=A0 The outcome may be a= mailing > list, a > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, = or > feedback from > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a body such as the IESG or IAB.=C2=A0 The outcome s= houldn't be an > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 immediate policy change, but if there is interest, = some means to > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 focus the discussion that might later use our exist= ing > processes to > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 effect that change. > >>=C2=A0 * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, > because there > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may not be anything important to discuss. > >>=C2=A0 * The community should decide what's important. This is a = bit of a > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chicken and egg issue, though.=C2=A0 Sometimes, an = issue must get > tossed > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 around before its importance is understood by other= s.=C2=A0 What's > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 important is that just because Eliot thinks an issu= e is > important > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others= =2E > >> How does this differ from *dispatch? > >> There are two major differences: > >> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. > >> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be > dispatched, but > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 simply an important question. > >> Possible Examples > >>=C2=A0 * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (pa= st) > >>=C2=A0 * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address pa= rticular > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 threats or changes to the Internet model? (potentia= l future) > >>=C2=A0 * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past)= > >>=C2=A0 * What sort of working group working methods should be acc= eptable? > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (potential future?) > >>=C2=A0 * Should our work take into account HR considerations (pas= t > and future?) > >> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what > you might expect at an in person plenary. > >> Modalities > >>=C2=A0 * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussion= s.=C2=A0 > I think > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 we've all seen bad interactions in email,=C2=A0 and= we seem to do > better > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other'= s > company, quite > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 frankly, even if that involves meetecho. perhaps a = "discussion" > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather = did > consultations > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the end of her tenor. > >>=C2=A0 * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the > point that a > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 plenary discussion can occur.=C2=A0 Perhaps Github = could provide > us this > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 opportunity. > >>=C2=A0 * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead= > it), and > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 help interested parties develop their views *prior*= to a plenary > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussion. > >>=C2=A0 * A good way to identify those interested parties would be= *short* > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 position papers.=C2=A0 Again, not email. > >> Comments? > >> Eliot > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > --------------FB3AB4E6A2D93FBC927E402C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 29.07.21 18:12, Eric Rescorla wrote= :


On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9= :02 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote= :
Joel,

> On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:=
>
> I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important purpose for the plenary.
>
> Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not.=C2=A0 That is why, even though it is usuall= y vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the plenary to be important.

I agree.=C2=A0 One very important purpose of the plenary is f= or the community to speak to our leadership and for them to listen.

I 100% agree. While it might be worth thinking about how to make that part more productive, it seems to me to be the one non-optional part.


So do I.=C2=A0 As I wrote in the proposal, there is a bit of a chi= cken and egg problem here.=C2=A0 I just view that as something to work o= n

Eliot


-Ekr

Bob


>
> Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on an issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know what a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable outcome during that time.
>
> I do not see how that would fit with what you have below.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Hi,
>> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the IETF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the gendispatch list and see what people think.=C2=A0 At the end of the day, I am aiming for an= experiment, and might write this or something else up in a draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative to this (cough, Pete).=C2=A0 If nobody else is interested, or lots of people think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it.=C2=A0 But what is written below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint.<= br> >> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main. Mostly so that all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a draft if there is interest.
>> The Principles
>>=C2=A0 * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting.
>>=C2=A0 * Plenary communication is necessary when ther= e is an important
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 question for the community to consider.=
>>=C2=A0 * Discussion of such issues must be well organ= ized and facilitated;
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the plenary discussion should be of= finite duration.
>>=C2=A0 * There should be some outcome.=C2=A0 The outc= ome may be a mailing list, a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an I= AB program, or feedback from
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a body such as the IESG or IAB.=C2=A0 T= he outcome shouldn't be an
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 immediate policy change, but if there i= s interest, some means to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 focus the discussion that might later u= se our existing processes to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 effect that change.
>>=C2=A0 * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regu= lar basis, because there
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may not be anything important to discus= s.
>>=C2=A0 * The community should decide what's important= =2E=C2=A0 This is a bit of a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chicken and egg issue, though.=C2=A0 So= metimes, an issue must get tossed
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 around before its importance is underst= ood by others.=C2=A0 What's
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 important is that just because Eliot th= inks an issue is important
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and cross cutting doesn't mean that it = is to others.
>> How does this differ from *dispatch?
>> There are two major differences:
>> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. >> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 simply an important question.
>> Possible Examples
>>=C2=A0 * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past)
>>=C2=A0 * Is there anything the IETF should be doing t= o address particular
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 threats or changes to the Internet mode= l? (potential future)
>>=C2=A0 * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past)
>>=C2=A0 * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable?
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (potential future?)
>>=C2=A0 * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and future?)
>> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you might expect at an in person plenary.
>> Modalities
>>=C2=A0 * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenar= y discussions.=C2=A0 I think
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 we've all seen bad interactions in emai= l,=C2=A0 and we seem to do better
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in person, and I think we largely enjoy= each other's company, quite
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 frankly, even if that involves meetecho= =2E=C2=A0 perhaps a "discussion"
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 might really be a set of meetings, the = way Heather did consultations
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 toward the end of her tenor.
>>=C2=A0 * We need a way for the community to upvote is= sues to the point that a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 plenary discussion can occur.=C2=A0 Per= haps Github could provide us this
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 opportunity.
>>=C2=A0 * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussi= on (not lead it), and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 help interested parties develop their v= iews *prior* to a plenary
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussion.
>>=C2=A0 * A good way to identify those interested part= ies would be *short*
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 position papers.=C2=A0 Again, not email= =2E
>> Comments?
>> Eliot
>
> --
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> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

--
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

--------------FB3AB4E6A2D93FBC927E402C-- --mUQS5NsleBBUytBMbMQrtvAjOY9P2Y6Ny-- --xY9i0bjqZ7GGWT8q3f5l8vhcfYGrhsI8Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmEC1BAFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejMq dgf8DE9RbnQ2OUQGe8rc5Zi5JFTztutc4/U9Tyy3YyhMibECcigwaxlmsIM/FJp5vfLy0AzpNT0E DDRW/waWum3fOvAyxA+lhLTV7uhxMtA9Amq2YBsKedO9j3sPOZnzY6bBjtR27ILCPat9a3EPA+ZH ibocznTil/7MURFhXa0QrJ1MAOzEc0miB4+6eZUXbPNXlRoEcWleeKZPmdgnMt4I1LM4tAamjCPs E3twWQjhuQOuOB0rLO3m6ufZzrQLBPegikADIjVIPEv73axXi0vGrDLyiIah0YTLlne3dA0EZAAw vBwWqG6aufIpUbuTsvLcFVlI7L/ukL291QDGLssn5Q== =/bB9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xY9i0bjqZ7GGWT8q3f5l8vhcfYGrhsI8Q-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 09:45:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840463A0CAB for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, MAY_BE_FORGED=1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytujQooUiq9Y for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8A2D3A0CD5 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.200] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 16TGiYTF073983 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:44:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] (may be forged) claimed to be [10.32.60.200] From: Paul Hoffman To: Eliot Lear Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, Pete Resnick Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:45:27 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5798) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:45:53 -0000 On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: > Comments? I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Thu Jul 29 09:59:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DDF3A0E49 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=krose.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T077Sgde6IGX for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D0673A0E11 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id n28-20020a05600c3b9cb02902552e60df56so4489021wms.0 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:59:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=krose.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iFlH33XANoE/NlNUhjlqhuRQNN1pvOsx/TYYz2C2BYs=; b=OlwRzDPygkPUFC0kem9yih5Gl8P5jgsVzX7iB5rHYTmdDrkwYgn/NffTJCdT19RekR 38S6xuGlS8W7PaZgDAY2ChuMu7ovFKTw8VapMVF6gw3ZRsYonBYQxOyintHM7dbzJ6JP S/kIJ1QsUy9ty67SBL05TrJMbPTf8dH2sO0N4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iFlH33XANoE/NlNUhjlqhuRQNN1pvOsx/TYYz2C2BYs=; b=ug6bs38GXW1RcoB1JxUFJUuE55JzmVTE3A4X1Nh6UIMwdPo+avl8jmV9hSsE00PkRD I1GpAz6dGFoJqDKb+jo4YmoWSJ3F+olVU7SLD5GKqapv6c7ziFIg5sAMiDkUedmFh1II Z6uddI5dHN909MEJuZx+2eAIVOXGWjZB4MjP43IDKTLj5xEEklk5/cAfHnIsGT/PStvI QfMcPpLZACjwZ6JwI9vii3JfWF4dogzSFflg8E5KYqc2g3sEzT6I5v/oXCNUT08rd/XD wkYLyAkHvh9DNg9icVYlVMFEBT4dz7c/MJrYlhvv+c0zvchWk18ZXdmEdNWVGS4+1q17 8yNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533F2Yq7MiTemqWQRDPHK2QQoYZxal5WdWto0LcrnDe5IoZD1XMh XSgfSFfRFG1iJsImtYmEPPuXUEv7WimDGhW5PSE0fXd+dto= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJa+mBc+lnLa00NiIBzZUyS79bE+d17wSFLgpERyaZwS9bdrUCV7r+OW1LXviOi2ikNMq60WC1ZPbGawfWSC4= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c14a:: with SMTP id z10mr1885348wmi.36.1627577971531; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:59:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kyle Rose Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:59:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Cc: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List , Pete Resnick Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d686e605c8460643" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:59:50 -0000 --000000000000d686e605c8460643 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Because many important members of the community have decided that too many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. Kyle On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > Comments? > > I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. > > --Paul Hoffman > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000d686e605c8460643 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bec= ause many important members of the community have decided that too many of = the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have unsubscribed. If= you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere.

Kyle

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46= PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@= vpnc.org> wrote:
On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote:

> Comments?

I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@.

--Paul Hoffman

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000d686e605c8460643-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 10:09:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3975E3A0E89 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:08:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zNcF-fBhVCUw for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08A753A0E84 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 10:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::6] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:6]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 16TH8lhm092891 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:08:48 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1627578528; bh=qN9f2bv5CCGcJP/edkZvBgvYq1J76nVRpXsGSi5gy7k=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=tXyyw6jk9dKf8FuJU3xel74yu2RbaKCLzivITIMhNFazXtcWooKBQl4zCoXv1duSM 6rfIbU4PH5MOJPhYCpjB6z/gQ4tMHHTJPPCQGmCReKqZsQXTZXntCdEclHm0iFdDGX 1zzlcFLH8F7moMCC7rq2ya2jjSvOYPnHzVkAcD3Q= To: Kyle Rose , Paul Hoffman Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Pete Resnick References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <7b9ffa37-400a-b0a7-2a2e-c0c2f5288b6f@lear.ch> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:08:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ySLuOeIj5FXMN96LC2g9LlGdY9M4CfrAE" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:08:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ySLuOeIj5FXMN96LC2g9LlGdY9M4CfrAE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="t9IAURvTZxSaPaRW7zXQwUoWRS46yzWbp"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Kyle Rose , Paul Hoffman Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Pete Resnick Message-ID: <7b9ffa37-400a-b0a7-2a2e-c0c2f5288b6f@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication References: In-Reply-To: --t9IAURvTZxSaPaRW7zXQwUoWRS46yzWbp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F260E63A2DFF25455518CFDD" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F260E63A2DFF25455518CFDD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More mundanely, this was an outgrowth of the discussion of Lars' draft. Eliot On 29.07.21 18:59, Kyle Rose wrote: > Because many important members of the community have decided that too=20 > many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have=20 > unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. > > Kyle > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > > On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > Comments? > > I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. > > --Paul Hoffman > > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > --------------F260E63A2DFF25455518CFDD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

More mundanely, this was an outgrowth of the discussion of Lars' draft.

Eliot

On 29.07.21 18:59, Kyle Rose wrote:
Because ma= ny important members of the community have decided that too many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere.

Kyle

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:= 46 PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:=
= On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote:

> Comments?

I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@.
--Paul Hoffman

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

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Lars' draft seems like an uncontroversial update that is fine to be handled without a WG. The fact that this discussion is happening here rather than on the IETF list might be evidence that a tighter charter for that list is necessary. It seems like there's been less traffic there (reading the archives, I unsubscribed a while back, after 15 years). Maybe that does show that the large audience and wide charter was being taken advantage of. thanks, Rob > Eliot > On 29.07.21 18:59, Kyle Rose wrote: > > Because many important members of the community have decided that too many > of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have > unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. > > Kyle > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > >> On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >> > Comments? >> >> I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. >> >> --Paul Hoffman >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000381fba05c8479f15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:09 AM Eliot Le= ar <lear@lear.ch> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

More mundanely, this was an outgrowth of the discussion of Lars' draft.


Why not both?
<= div>
Lars' draft seems like an uncontroversial update tha= t is fine to be handled without a WG.

The fact tha= t this discussion is happening here rather than on the IETF list might be e= vidence that a tighter charter for that list is necessary. It seems like th= ere's been less traffic there (reading the archives, I unsubscribed a w= hile back, after 15 years). Maybe that does show that the large audience an= d wide charter was being taken advantage of.=C2=A0

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0

Eliot

On 29.07.21 18:59, Kyle Rose wrote:
=20
Because many important members of the community have decided that too many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere.

Kyle

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:
On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote:

> Comments?

I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@.=

--Paul Hoffman

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendisp= atch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen= dispatch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
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[73.223.183.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j6sm4519562wmq.29.2021.07.29.12.01.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <055A49EF-5498-44ED-845F-8AC95FF7790B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A6ABC30C-0DAE-4C69-BAFA-035EBCAABD74"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:01:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Paul Hoffman , GENDISPATCH List , Pete Resnick , Eliot Lear To: Kyle Rose References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:02:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A6ABC30C-0DAE-4C69-BAFA-035EBCAABD74 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kyle, > On Jul 29, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Kyle Rose wrote: >=20 > Because many important members of the community have decided that too = many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have = unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. Perhaps the actual important members of community are the ones = subscribed to the IETF list. Bob >=20 > Kyle >=20 > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman = wrote: > On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: >=20 > > Comments? >=20 > I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. >=20 > --Paul Hoffman >=20 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_A6ABC30C-0DAE-4C69-BAFA-035EBCAABD74 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmEC+xwACgkQrut0EXfn u6iqyAf/Xg1gNm/v4uHVpRaLdRGhZqqdT2K+N3k+iNZWeUMxvcMqf04xEPWUiNSa /JRqqHPrKe0EbRijdlFwjyTa1Tn5xGmcO8nivPF8ZQyPW+BCtVGbdCje6GOFRNYL ohBN5w/k2a81hgSG3eCujjM0dpuihr7SnZVhDsa7n71JBcXvp5ccw6Tpr+ymHjil FmHJAbW/zUt4ECH+fEbp3SHtkNUhdaQeWFEfGtg1k0mNKLKGCdbHbdvHNFRacm9/ ympFUdwreYE309HpOKXJ0nH07Rofg4PXjBbdw3i89aaiIenKCK+PJrQ0TxJ+z1fK CDvR/WqqSGELMb4L24HbjjSWFmTWAQ== =Xk2m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A6ABC30C-0DAE-4C69-BAFA-035EBCAABD74-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 12:06:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5473A169F for ; 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Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:06:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <055A49EF-5498-44ED-845F-8AC95FF7790B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <055A49EF-5498-44ED-845F-8AC95FF7790B@gmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:05:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: Kyle Rose , GENDISPATCH List , Paul Hoffman , Pete Resnick , Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9ec0405c847cbb5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:06:21 -0000 --000000000000e9ec0405c847cbb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:03 PM Bob Hinden wrote: > Kyle, > > > On Jul 29, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Kyle Rose wrote: > > > > Because many important members of the community have decided that too > many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have > unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. > > Perhaps the actual important members of community are the ones subscribed > to the IETF list. > I think it would be helpful if we refrained from characterizing members of the community as "important" or "unimportant". -Ekr > Bob > > > > > > Kyle > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > > On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > > > Comments? > > > > I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. > > > > --Paul Hoffman > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000e9ec0405c847cbb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:03 PM Bob = Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com= > wrote:
Kyle= ,

> On Jul 29, 2021, at 9:59 AM, Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> wrote:
>
> Because many important members of the community have decided that too = many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have unsubscr= ibed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere.

Perhaps the actual important members of community are the ones subscribed t= o the IETF list.

I think it would be he= lpful if we refrained from characterizing members of the community as "= ;important" or "unimportant".

-Ekr<= /div>


Bob


>
> Kyle
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:=
> On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote:
>
> > Comments?
>
> I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@.
>
> --Paul Hoffman
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
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([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k10sm4422186pfc.169.2021.07.29.12.51.37 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jul 2021 12:51:38 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4b3a17c3-02ff-0c60-b638-bf3f97c2e014@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:51:35 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 19:51:54 -0000 Yes. When I was on the IAB or IESG, I always felt it was a *duty* to be on ietf@, and maybe we should actually codify that. (And when I stepped down, in both cases I gave myself a few months holiday from the list.) Speaking truth to power doesn't work if power isn't listening. Regards Brian Carpenter On 30-Jul-21 04:59, Kyle Rose wrote: > Because many important members of the community have decided that too many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. > > Kyle > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: > > On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > Comments? > > I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. > > --Paul Hoffman > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > From nobody Thu Jul 29 14:48:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA7C3A09FC for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:48:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <4b3a17c3-02ff-0c60-b638-bf3f97c2e014@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:47:56 +1000 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20DE79E4-7164-4872-A747-CBC92F62DC69@mnot.net> References: <4b3a17c3-02ff-0c60-b638-bf3f97c2e014@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:48:09 -0000 Purposes I've seen claimed for the IETF list now include: - community-building - incubation of ideas - general discussion - unofficial announcements - "forcing" people to listen to one's ideas - speaking "truth to power" As a result, it is a *very* noisy list. People feel they have a right = (and sometimes a duty) to go on and on about their particular hobby = horse. Because the list can't actually resolve anything, there is often = no stopping function.=20 I would point out that one can speak truth to power in the plenary = meeting, during the IAB and IESG sessions. One can also speak truth to = power by directly e-mailing iab@ and/or iesg@.=20 If the point of doing it on ietf@ is to do so in front of the broader = community, I will yet again point out that that list is *not* the = community -- it's a self-selecting group of people who despite the noise = choose to engage in the list. Nevertheless, you can cc: ietf@ on your = truth-y message to get the same effect. If the point of doing it on ietf@ is to get it "on the record", cc:ing = it to ietf@ has a similar function. I'd also point out that the W3C has = a dedicated list just for this purpose: = https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/ So (unsurprisingly), I would dispute any effort to characterise IAB or = IESG to have such a duty (although I reluctantly remained subscribed = while I was on the IAB).=20 My views on that might change if we are able to clean up the mess that = is ietf@. Cheers, > On 30 Jul 2021, at 5:51 am, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Yes. When I was on the IAB or IESG, I always felt it was a *duty* to = be on ietf@, and maybe we should actually codify that. (And when I = stepped down, in both cases I gave myself a few months holiday from the = list.) >=20 > Speaking truth to power doesn't work if power isn't listening. >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 > On 30-Jul-21 04:59, Kyle Rose wrote: >> Because many important members of the community have decided that too = many of the opinions expressed on ietf@ are beneath them, and have = unsubscribed. If you want to reach them, you have to post elsewhere. >>=20 >> Kyle >>=20 >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 12:46 PM Paul Hoffman > wrote: >>=20 >> On 29 Jul 2021, at 2:45, Eliot Lear wrote: >>=20 >>> Comments? >>=20 >> I don't understand why this is on gendispatch@ and not ietf@. >>=20 >> --Paul Hoffman >>=20 >> --=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Jul 29 14:55:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165023A0414 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TGVlGJXSMQkX; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30C4D3A03EF; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:55:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <1A1AD36B-5A79-48FC-9D16-6DF0B05F7299@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CEDE4972-9052-4FFD-865C-673299D9B64E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 09:55:19 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear To: Eric Rescorla References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:55:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CEDE4972-9052-4FFD-865C-673299D9B64E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 30/07/2021, at 4:12 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Bob Hinden > wrote: > Joel, >=20 > > On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > >=20 > > I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important = purpose for the plenary. > >=20 > > Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, = whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not. That is = why, even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion = of the plenary to be important. >=20 > I agree. One very important purpose of the plenary is for the = community to speak to our leadership and for them to listen. >=20 > I 100% agree. While it might be worth thinking about how to make that = part more productive, it seems to me to be the one non-optional part. I agree and would add one other non-optional part, which is leadership = presenting to the community on what they are doing, as that taken = together with the open-mic ensures a f2f session of transparency and = scrutiny. =20 Jay >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare perspectives on = an issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if we do not know = what a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at a reasonable = outcome during that time. > >=20 > > I do not see how that would fit with what you have below. > >=20 > > Yours, > > Joel > >=20 > > On 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> Hi, > >> As one of the people who think that the plenary function of the = IETF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put this out to the = gendispatch list and see what people think. At the end of the day, I am = aiming for an experiment, and might write this or something else up in a = draft with others, if others are interested in this or some alternative = to this (cough, Pete). If nobody else is interested, or lots of people = think that trying something new for plenary communication is A Bad Idea, = this discussion will be the last you hear from me on it. But what is = written below is meant as a starting point, not an endpoint. > >> FWIW, and with apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the = below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main = . Mostly so that all the = below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned into a draft = if there is interest. > >> The Principles > >> * Plenary communication is expensive and burdensome, and should be > >> reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting. > >> * Plenary communication is necessary when there is an important > >> question for the community to consider. > >> * Discussion of such issues must be well organized and = facilitated; > >> and the plenary discussion should be of finite duration. > >> * There should be some outcome. The outcome may be a mailing = list, a > >> BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an IAB program, or feedback = from > >> a body such as the IESG or IAB. The outcome shouldn't be an > >> immediate policy change, but if there is interest, some means to > >> focus the discussion that might later use our existing processes = to > >> effect that change. > >> * Plenary discussions may not happen on a regular basis, because = there > >> may not be anything important to discuss. > >> * The community should decide what's important. This is a bit of = a > >> chicken and egg issue, though. Sometimes, an issue must get = tossed > >> around before its importance is understood by others. What's > >> important is that just because Eliot thinks an issue is = important > >> and cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others. > >> How does this differ from *dispatch? > >> There are two major differences: > >> 1. The matter must be of cross-cutting importance. > >> 2. The input to the process may not be a draft to be dispatched, = but > >> simply an important question. > >> Possible Examples > >> * How should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past) > >> * Is there anything the IETF should be doing to address particular > >> threats or changes to the Internet model? (potential future) > >> * What should be done about the RFC Editor process? (past) > >> * What sort of working group working methods should be acceptable? > >> (potential future?) > >> * Should our work take into account HR considerations (past and = future?) > >> The astute will note that this isn't much different from what you = might expect at an in person plenary. > >> Modalities > >> * EMail may not be the best way to hold plenary discussions. I = think > >> we've all seen bad interactions in email, and we seem to do = better > >> in person, and I think we largely enjoy each other's company, = quite > >> frankly, even if that involves meetecho. perhaps a "discussion" > >> might really be a set of meetings, the way Heather did = consultations > >> toward the end of her tenor. > >> * We need a way for the community to upvote issues to the point = that a > >> plenary discussion can occur. Perhaps Github could provide us = this > >> opportunity. > >> * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), = and > >> help interested parties develop their views *prior* to a plenary > >> discussion. > >> * A good way to identify those interested parties would be *short* > >> position papers. Again, not email. > >> Comments? > >> Eliot > >=20 > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_CEDE4972-9052-4FFD-865C-673299D9B64E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 30/07/2021, at 4:12 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:



On Thu, Jul = 29, 2021 at 9:02 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Joel,

> On Jul 29, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Joel M. = Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
> 
> I may = be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important purpose = for the plenary.
> 
> = Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether = the leadership thinks the issue is important or not.  That is why, = even though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of = the plenary to be important.

I agree.  = One very important purpose of the plenary is for the community to speak = to our leadership and for them to listen.

I 100% agree. While it = might be worth thinking about how to make that part more productive, it = seems to me to be the one non-optional part.

I agree and would add one other non-optional part, = which is leadership presenting to the community on what they are doing, = as that taken together with the open-mic ensures a f2f session of = transparency and scrutiny.  

Jay


-Ekr

Bob


> 
> Also, sometimes it is important to air and compare = perspectives on an issue (particularly in the4 above category) even if = we do not know what a reasonable result could be, and can not arrive at = a reasonable outcome during that time.
> 
> I do = not see how that would fit with what you have below.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On = 7/29/2021 5:45 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:
>> Hi,
>> As one of the people who think that the plenary = function of the IETF needs a more serious rethink, I thought I would put = this out to the gendispatch list and see what people think.  At the = end of the day, I am aiming for an experiment, and might write this or = something else up in a draft with others, if others are interested in = this or some alternative to this (cough, Pete).  If nobody else is = interested, or lots of people think that trying something new for = plenary communication is A Bad Idea, this discussion will be the last = you hear from me on it.  But what is written below is meant as a = starting point, not an endpoint.
>> FWIW, and with = apologies to Joel and others, I've a copy of the below in Github at https://github.com/elear/ietf-plen/tree/main. Mostly so = that all the below can be modified, substituted, etc, and later turned = into a draft if there is interest.
>> The = Principles
>>  * Plenary communication is = expensive and burdensome, and should be
>>  =   reserved for important issues that are cross-cutting.
>>  * Plenary communication is necessary when = there is an important
>>    question for = the community to consider.
>>  * Discussion of = such issues must be well organized and facilitated;
>>    and the plenary discussion should be of = finite duration.
>>  * There should be some = outcome.  The outcome may be a mailing list, a
>>    BOF, dispatch to a dispatch group, an = IAB program, or feedback from
>>    a body = such as the IESG or IAB.  The outcome shouldn't be an
>>    immediate policy change, but if there = is interest, some means to
>>    focus the = discussion that might later use our existing processes to
>>    effect that change.
>>  * Plenary discussions may not happen on a = regular basis, because there
>>    may not = be anything important to discuss.
>>  * The = community should decide what's important.  This is a bit of a
>>    chicken and egg issue, though.  = Sometimes, an issue must get tossed
>>    = around before its importance is understood by others.  What's
>>    important is that just because Eliot = thinks an issue is important
>>    and = cross cutting doesn't mean that it is to others.
>> = How does this differ from *dispatch?
>> There are = two major differences:
>> 1. The matter must be of = cross-cutting importance.
>> 2. The input to the = process may not be a draft to be dispatched, but
>>    simply an important question.
>> Possible Examples
>>  * How = should the IESG/LLC organize its COVID response? (past)
>>  * Is there anything the IETF should be doing = to address particular
>>    threats or = changes to the Internet model? (potential future)
>>  * What should be done about the RFC Editor = process? (past)
>>  * What sort of working = group working methods should be acceptable?
>>  =   (potential future?)
>>  * Should our = work take into account HR considerations (past and future?)
>> The astute will note that this isn't much different = from what you might expect at an in person plenary.
>>= Modalities
>>  * EMail may not be the best way = to hold plenary discussions.  I think
>>  =   we've all seen bad interactions in email,  and we seem to do = better
>>    in person, and I think we = largely enjoy each other's company, quite
>>  =   frankly, even if that involves meetecho.  perhaps a = "discussion"
>>    might really be a set = of meetings, the way Heather did consultations
>>    toward the end of her tenor.
>>  * We need a way for the community to upvote = issues to the point that a
>>    plenary = discussion can occur.  Perhaps Github could provide us this
>>    opportunity.
>> = * IMHO a facilitator should drive the discussion (not lead it), and
>>    help interested parties develop their = views *prior* to a plenary
>>    = discussion.
>>  * A good way to identify those = interested parties would be *short*
>>    = position papers.  Again, not email.
>> = Comments?
>> Eliot
> 
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Gendispatch = mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
-- Gendispatch mailing = list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_CEDE4972-9052-4FFD-865C-673299D9B64E-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 14:59:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4593A0749 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4o8ps-L-9_fc for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3E0F3A0744 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id 185so9001927iou.10 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:58:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p+iUvQXcThiOEO87CpB5DZYs2yG6aJ7IludHRPzz19s=; b=l/SaZBHeCNQESDAV3tCNocP6HZaEXPDF+9+TPIkOYGPm0BU6EMdeiqVZ83KEoJ0Oa7 ft2iexC/IpoCAcba8QCW+yZlx2YjeW/nZv5U1H2BbhFREXO+imFi4z0uCKiJqx03Zyi+ JMGqJ5n5L8j3DZU91JmtlXTdnypSGisZYvqxv7YTK+j1Fk2P5w1+UovSSXgwiI8u2jDe 8p9pqUg+xC20tFN0UeTB19Ij392AcYkHnqhNhmd70S0EK1VUTKFIOmea7OJj+jDM8Gu1 91cj50YwfmhgIgvl1sJH6AUziIFYfMUv8N1P+XWdzXSPGP+1XiYSaGSBP8HmqNnMrOwV tXMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p+iUvQXcThiOEO87CpB5DZYs2yG6aJ7IludHRPzz19s=; b=gDJ3PXa0mUzbVTgqo5KsiP5xn7eJR7pCmSmXT5zgSfQ5gPLChPVPnUFXMivSpgrbJ+ ReaipUfprCnVR/pSCyTda+3oJtVRJgWEOYslN4DXzNIM4GQPkN91tw0gNVLowQ5/Ajr2 ndoLm3LF6mhr+dcZTD9UGeGppR4kGdO1d6arz3trKaq7XreB8YTf3xryh3DC2CxFyYOO 8r1lgpfgKGRuoqwHP2bKssxzAZ0Dk59DcW3btWVGTsBqYCiUz997yod7yjGC8ziwazXr y8PVqC1oP0u3OjWZJBu02pBSKxqwSQNUJsNOMjLMJ1AyYeWDxdRwrTYdiT6mg0dWH6+9 pSIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iih141zhDgUc4kYvrymT21/52KTpwzYsLpdbjvOHrBoJC+Oj9 lnHV/cLz+ftJ/49ltjJZU6B+kt5KQCiYgqo6uFfoRdJzesoZAA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrvSn/kwSX6f7ZS2TNK6vCNXLfIG6Qb5/NzO1WYgXNTTxrGK1AEwaITrDZuUk0Ho7fXTdUFnpXf+TpXsbVNSU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:130d:: with SMTP id r13mr6216192jad.103.1627595938410; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:58:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4b3a17c3-02ff-0c60-b638-bf3f97c2e014@gmail.com> <20DE79E4-7164-4872-A747-CBC92F62DC69@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <20DE79E4-7164-4872-A747-CBC92F62DC69@mnot.net> From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 14:58:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Brian E Carpenter , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf35a305c84a3597" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 21:59:05 -0000 --000000000000bf35a305c84a3597 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:48 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Purposes I've seen claimed for the IETF list now include: > > - community-building > - incubation of ideas > - general discussion > - unofficial announcements > - "forcing" people to listen to one's ideas > - speaking "truth to power" > Don't forget the ability of anyone in the world to suggest that the IETF hold a meeting in their area, thus enabling list participants to weigh in on geopolitical issues. thanks, Rob --000000000000bf35a305c84a3597 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 2:48 PM Mark Nott= ingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Purposes I've seen claimed for the IETF list now include:
- community-building
- incubation of ideas
- general discussion
- unofficial announcements
- "forcing" people to listen to one's ideas
- speaking "truth to power"

D= on't forget the ability of anyone in the world to suggest that the IETF= hold a meeting in their area, thus enabling list participants to weigh in = on geopolitical=C2=A0issues.

thanks,
Rob=

--000000000000bf35a305c84a3597-- From nobody Thu Jul 29 15:15:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583393A0A88 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:15:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zBenZgI-N2o0 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f176.google.com (mail-yb1-f176.google.com [209.85.219.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D75673A0A84 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id q15so12663667ybu.2 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:15:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q891vrA/ADszEH3wgmIqIqBjQTwGaynb0ZoocVdwgcA=; b=IHT3mhaRlvbm6i0fGiiyL8IKtdSdIRCpf9TZ9kf0V0AOnwLkLr3WW+0AZKuhug1N82 m+9jbBPJDvflzqQFCMnyz75wvXpV4Gk50O6W8RT9fFbL37avZBMSazmoiXlDJsQtcZmU X67jG57GwLfHMKL4JVSWNqJBkZe/oDdnNSG4M5xG5SROH9rK44JFV9FTX6zH4KK6nWu3 mO276SZYyIMR3FRI5bNVyC28YKP6f403QJUKc+NGDMVaopc+kwiKNNwthRqyRfKbZ85U 7xb3eGziYdUSVOPsFyS3IYzwnmRLorP25CRB22SmGqZIw5ki+Ppgqlg0yDgtK1He/YdW C2bQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ywL4H2RCRDKsn6oCbxaa0bE7o0IITq8OLEH0mU75lH/A6sKuQ m+882OpZc2Ileb7B17zSOIStsySdFyCKgmLFnTU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbAldN1SsHdOp576rdTBRmCdIJknbyC2dqeKVLcw8p3ZXiiPu6W+d8zX45Zmurcp9Il0qkzc1PO2HhTifakhs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:af81:: with SMTP id g1mr9523128ybh.172.1627596936904; Thu, 29 Jul 2021 15:15:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 18:15:26 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Eliot Lear , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004301e205c84a71a3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:15:43 -0000 --0000000000004301e205c84a71a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one important > purpose for the plenary. > > Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether > the leadership thinks the issue is important or not. That is why, even > though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the > plenary to be important. > Sometimes there are issues that have to be raised in public BECAUSE the IESG doesn't want to talk about them. Like that time that the chair of a working group who was also an AD in another area flagrantly abused their power by refusing to recognize WG consensus on a draft he personally opposed and filibustered the issue for over a year by referring it to a cabal for review and nobody on the IESG dared to acknowledge the situation because the WG chair might retaliate in IESG. If the only venue for talking truth to power is the law courts, that is where it is going to be taken. Since then, a number of reforms have prevented a repeat. SECDIR and GENART reviews explicitly state that they are not privileged and should be treated as other comments. The referral of a WG item to a directorate should never have been allowed then, it would be much harder to justify today. Another important reform is that with the exception of GENAREA which is traditionally chaired by IETF Chair, members of the IESG are not WG chairs. And there is a general expectation that AD tenure is limited to two terms with three being exceptional. --0000000000004301e205c84a71a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:15 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I may be misreading this, but it seems that it misses one import= ant
purpose for the plenary.

Sometimes, the community has concerns that need to be expressed, whether the leadership thinks the issue is important or not.=C2=A0 That is why, eve= n
though it is usually vacuous, I consider the open mic portion of the
plenary to be important.

Sometimes there are issues that ha= ve to be raised in public BECAUSE the IESG doesn't want to talk about t= hem.

=
Like that time that = the chair of a working group who was also an AD in another area flagrantly = abused their power by refusing to recognize WG consensus=C2=A0on a draft he= personally opposed and filibustered the issue for over a year by referring= =C2=A0it to a cabal for review and nobody on the IESG dared to acknowledge= =C2=A0the situation=C2=A0because the WG chair might retaliate in IESG.

If the only venue for talking= truth to power is the law courts, that is where it is going to be taken.= =C2=A0


Since then, a number of reforms have prevented a repe= at. SECDIR and GENART reviews explicitly state that they are not privileged= and should be treated as other comments. The referral of a WG item to a di= rectorate should never have been allowed then, it would be much harder to j= ustify today. Another important reform=C2=A0is that with the exception of G= ENAREA which is traditionally chaired by IETF Chair, members of the IESG ar= e not WG chairs. And there is a general expectation that AD tenure is limit= ed to two terms with three being exceptional.


--0000000000004301e205c84a71a3-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 04:45:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1C33A276A for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AbGHPNiC0fuZ for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECAA63A2768 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFF832003CE for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:45:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=9ewPtM wycxYCRdsjFRr9fgaL4tj83QARn+0UlVPI7CQ=; b=OWZR9D8x2ikLQVHBSo3UwM sNiXzfD9qt9Hm6lzF65BdiQgJaoP1gef2aEINULjv9yALZCj0SCOlmjMBDRLJ4TM e6yp2c++GpfK9dImrPnElYWR49X3VgeF6YhUFubxphu3Tw+GV3HujnNirvYk6FCa Z1q9QJRaJcfsbseeYmeh0ie8tjoUdZd+UQszJ51rqEc6CA64OosPnBdHe5hopxT0 i3tjFfsew3TOCb/Q9OcZ0N5y5brDvENaY9wP31IgMnu0WVnwNeb+VFHxDl+/Y9yP 9ki2igwemSCRoMKci94uqSoOM+FjbD84zAIi7kYtFSK6cYBmxCye1x9Nc7XUUKcQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrheehgdegtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderre dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhr khdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevfeetudeigedtle dvvddtudefjeejffdvfeetjeeiueelgfdtgfegtdffkeetudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqd hhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:45:42 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <72e82e93-457f-e289-16b7-6be8393864ea@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:45:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------38A54970DD3DDFB22EB72F51" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:45:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------38A54970DD3DDFB22EB72F51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/29/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too > easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line. > IMO, this is a sign of strength.   An organization that can tolerate input from anyone can have a conscience, can be self-correcting. Even if listening to such input is often tiring, occasionally such input is quite valuable.   I don't know of any effective way of filtering out the less-valuable input without also filtering the more-valuable input. Keith --------------38A54970DD3DDFB22EB72F51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 7/29/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:

I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line.

IMO, this is a sign of strength.   An organization that can tolerate input from anyone can have a conscience, can be self-correcting.   Even if listening to such input is often tiring, occasionally such input is quite valuable.   I don't know of any effective way of filtering out the less-valuable input without also filtering the more-valuable input.

Keith


--------------38A54970DD3DDFB22EB72F51-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 04:56:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FCB3A27BE for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:56:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id exYieLsnm8Ph for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE1383A1EC8 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 04:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C159832007CF for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:56:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=0popVU mArBuVb9zxxR7Jt8NRrlloa7RIKZ97N4boFZA=; b=pYIlLJ8xv7Ns7QLeyQ0rpo 41mQWVOPI+EVgAH8DACQPpBuQ/YoQvUZzPACplUGJk3pr7rwUAJKbHJ6x7ykgJ9J R2k7AuK2dFi63uAAf9UbVrO6jkPfi4a0fgO9ncuEdPsZkqxmD7EAG7qbIvbMANyP hnzrNthOSPMZnhtxARZ55FTeZOiVz+v7MCOA6/Qv41yFdfJ1+FO1uzPw7rxYdTYL XibOYuPc1lSD5MfNgc9JFUWJDJF/QQb05fO8rQejcnywBSSxN/7S2uJMe1iRw91x pWrTu21VlhLxP/dDsPpOjdl+rdRa3fu3ym0vSBIaROI78IGvGLM6pv70Dbhnzorg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrheehgdegvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtsegrtderre dtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhr khdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevfeetudeigedtle dvvddtudefjeejffdvfeetjeeiueelgfdtgfegtdffkeetudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhi iigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqd hhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:56:23 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <055A49EF-5498-44ED-845F-8AC95FF7790B@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <18b67825-610f-ebd5-fcf7-051e6c2076ff@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 07:56:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0E6E00CC83F9E14AD96AE63A" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:56:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0E6E00CC83F9E14AD96AE63A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/29/21 3:05 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Perhaps the actual important members of community are the ones > subscribed to the IETF list. > > > I think it would be helpful if we refrained from characterizing > members of the community as "important" or "unimportant". Agree with that. From my perspective the IETF community has (for a variety of reasons) become so fragmented, that there is no longer any effective way to have a community-wide discussion. Keith --------------0E6E00CC83F9E14AD96AE63A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 7/29/21 3:05 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:


Perhaps the actual important members of community are the ones subscribed to the IETF list.

I think it would be helpful if we refrained from characterizing members of the community as "important" or "unimportant".

Agree with that.  

From my perspective the IETF community has (for a variety of reasons) become so fragmented, that there is no longer any effective way to have a community-wide discussion.

Keith


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Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1E0D84E6-9F79-452F-AEBB-2C46E2FF1598@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="I7lczdIE2lbLKkEa8QyoSM0hY3UtFoZhh" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:32:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --I7lczdIE2lbLKkEa8QyoSM0hY3UtFoZhh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0rob4ZPLokbNZNjaJSAO8cKf7qdMTH2Ol"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Salz, Rich" , Keith Moore , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <49464569-073f-a879-6ce8-764fb46cc456@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication References: <72e82e93-457f-e289-16b7-6be8393864ea@network-heretics.com> <1E0D84E6-9F79-452F-AEBB-2C46E2FF1598@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <1E0D84E6-9F79-452F-AEBB-2C46E2FF1598@akamai.com> --0rob4ZPLokbNZNjaJSAO8cKf7qdMTH2Ol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7FC8BD8A7163E277FDAFE547" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7FC8BD8A7163E277FDAFE547 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are two issues: 1. How are new concerns developed/discussed? 2. How do we manage the conversation so that it comes to a productive outcome? The ietf list works ok for (1) but generally poorly for (2). And so what to do about (2)?=C2=A0 My proposal was an attempt to address = that=20 by having someone organize a discussion a bit, and have people prepare=20 for that, with an eye toward SOME outcome. Let's take a complaint about the IESG from someone who says that there=20 are currently no people with on the IESG that have good skills at polo,=20 and can we have a conversation about qualifications and where to get=20 good horses. Some people take different directions, and argue that the=20 underlying issue is a dearth of scuba divers, and the conversation goes=20 on for a while, and nothing happens, and our IESG remains woefully=20 unprepared for the next polo match. First of all, was that the optimal outcome?=C2=A0 With the given example,= =20 quite possibly so, since we don't need IESG members who play polo or=20 scuba dive. But supposing the issue was around three party communication models and=20 their interactions between security, application, and Internet layers,=20 and the impact was around 1st responders?=C2=A0 Now what would you like t= o=20 have happen?=C2=A0 Especially if there are passionate views?=C2=A0 Who is= prepared=20 to engage in an informed way?=C2=A0 What IETF processes should be used? With an outcome comes a next step and hopefully a cessation of the=20 discussion on the ietf list; unless and until that next step has led to=20 some sort of dead end. Eliot On 30.07.21 16:23, Salz, Rich wrote: > > Keith and Dan have made me re-think my posting, and I was wrong. An=20 > open mic is really like the price of an open organization.=C2=A0 Thanks= =2E > > (Ironic since I=E2=80=99ve said that exact same thing more than once wh= en=20 > people put up proposals to make =E2=80=9Cietf@ietf=E2=80=9D more useful= =2E :) > > --------------7FC8BD8A7163E277FDAFE547 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are two issues:
  1. How are new concerns developed/discussed?
  2. How do we manage the conversation so that it comes to a productive outcome?

The ietf list works ok for (1) but generally poorly for (2).

=

And so what to do about (2)?=C2=A0 My proposal was an attempt to= address that by having someone organize a discussion a bit, and have people prepare for that, with an eye toward SOME outcome.

Let's take a complaint about the IESG from someone who says that there are currently no people with on the IESG that have good skills at polo, and can we have a conversation about qualifications and where to get good horses. Some people take different directions, and argue that the underlying issue is a dearth of scuba divers, and the conversation goes on for a while, and nothing happens, and our IESG remains woefully unprepared for the next polo match.

First of all, was that the optimal outcome?=C2=A0 With the given= example, quite possibly so, since we don't need IESG members who play polo or scuba dive.=C2=A0

But supposing the issue was around three party communication models and their interactions between security, application, and Internet layers, and the impact was around 1st responders?=C2=A0 = Now what would you like to have happen?=C2=A0 Especially if there are= passionate views?=C2=A0 Who is prepared to engage in an informed way?=C2=A0 What IETF processes should be used?

With an outcome comes a next step and hopefully a cessation of the discussion on the ietf list; unless and until that next step has led to some sort of dead end.

Eliot


On 30.07.21 16:23, Salz, Rich wrote:

Keith and Dan have made me re-think my posting, and I was wrong. An open mic is really like the price of an open organization.=C2=A0 Thanks.

(Ironic since I=E2=80=99ve said that exact same thing more tha= n once when people put up proposals to make =E2=80=9Cietf@ietf=E2=80=9D= more useful. :)


--------------7FC8BD8A7163E277FDAFE547-- --0rob4ZPLokbNZNjaJSAO8cKf7qdMTH2Ol-- --I7lczdIE2lbLKkEa8QyoSM0hY3UtFoZhh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmEEG3UFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOk LQf/firVdZWpjFETbtvMag3XSRZR1D0bTBv37/wECSwqCCB8HhcsUgnEcdYmNKJu7IYNV5QNL6G7 7mwbmk9dU/Ba4y1Kiiag+N8DM0b9u5jaDOlagl1eAEPoT9MT54cvMubHFAMs0AmbYPVRMh7delrN g4cPDikRnhmFg7k1y9KCAWZ5mtOfUEGTwajki3cMK2s63JICsy7NlgW74xXjXF3isNbWivJQCqcB Fbai/3voY9tKgTb/WSp8snp0/DdvE9th9tcWW11mfHMcwQRUzEVjsqplAw8Uf16b1/Fh6jmLjoVi DJ4uF9UT28PfbFmWqIJysmXLJv4h6FUUqbAgsrflpQ== =fkXe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --I7lczdIE2lbLKkEa8QyoSM0hY3UtFoZhh-- From nobody Fri Jul 30 08:43:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E5A3A2DD2 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:43:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnpI9ftnjUIF for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BB903A2DCD for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p200300dee72c6200748ee52f883c88d7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e72c:6200:748e:e52f:883c:88d7]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1m9Ufs-0006uk-Jo; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:43:48 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <72e82e93-457f-e289-16b7-6be8393864ea@network-heretics.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:43:47 +0200 Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <72e82e93-457f-e289-16b7-6be8393864ea@network-heretics.com> To: Keith Moore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1627659832;bd515883; X-HE-SMSGID: 1m9Ufs-0006uk-Jo Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:43:57 -0000 I don=E2=80=99t think the proposals was to filter input. I agree that it = is important to listen and haven different ways to provide feedback such = that we can get a large variation of different views. That=E2=80=99s one = of the reason why we have the open mic in the first place. However, the open mic is not only a way to provide input because there = also is discussion and a large number people are =E2=80=9Cforced=E2=80=9D = to listen (more than e.g. on a mailings). Also the open mic is and = should not be the only way to provide input.=20 So the question for me is: how can we direct the input to the right = input channel? And how can we use the limited amount of valuable time we = have in the plenary most efficiently? For the second question for me = that mean that we should try to use interactive discussion time in front = of a large audience for those topics that this large audience is most = interested in. This is not about surpassing other input (that would be a = bad outcome) but maybe direct some of the input to other input channels = and have a more structured approach about what to discuss in the open = mic session at the plenary. Mirja > On 30. Jul 2021, at 13:45, Keith Moore = wrote: >=20 > On 7/29/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >> I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too = easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line. >>=20 > IMO, this is a sign of strength. An organization that can tolerate = input from anyone can have a conscience, can be self-correcting. Even = if listening to such input is often tiring, occasionally such input is = quite valuable. I don't know of any effective way of filtering out the = less-valuable input without also filtering the more-valuable input. > Keith >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Fri Jul 30 11:04:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB643A089B for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SrviYatIRgsT for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-f171.google.com (mail-yb1-f171.google.com [209.85.219.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D4DB3A08D5 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-f171.google.com with SMTP id e4so3712192ybn.2 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LVhqvRYDRKQNN0SxRGR8K+bJ0HJ1XeNNqWY/M5Sec88=; b=eH1+8DMQ9EjGJGFrmvqRo+AUDD6xN6e1RuS8jlrIFIxVAwAzx3iFkMfW/TAoerbP3x ggu4Ji+aYQQeUpJHsUS9tg3N4EbM8wRKdFsLs+bUpVVZmDu1xVDGRHDiAo7lRJm9Pu+G 89PHSeL31hxv3zFONghBXpVhSJ/ZUDvaAKZpKBTTL8dhn43rniLKxmcaP7Ih+4fEJyQc PuHb5jLytjpkj9i6IvxhnBlJHg1N6unTjN0+EE4PgEW8Bezmiiuz59CPjwbH3zkXvFm8 c/h+rv5yXuD2uEjfmhlmrd6dLFZUzeZ5GPITrpExk54SXb3UxtClbBvKdjofdyz635Jf RXZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531lPg9XGk3Fobx3LpwpBaOj2GsrGGsln/M1cwxZI85vZSdAYfYP 64CWJJPsL80pWamqNihappHEoU8fqIHGxp7kGx/xF9dgjeA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDLh1tSX40EkWEIscbTD8EmaVmJE5vVktEKrx/ldVXOJv2nU/L9/M8+Jp7u4IsuqTi/azGbgR3cfW/DX6Z9Dk= X-Received: by 2002:a25:244f:: with SMTP id k76mr5171170ybk.523.1627668258080; Fri, 30 Jul 2021 11:04:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72e82e93-457f-e289-16b7-6be8393864ea@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:04:07 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Keith Moore , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000055cdad05c85b0c77" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] some thoughts about ietf communication X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 18:04:27 -0000 --00000000000055cdad05c85b0c77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A lesson I learned from Jock Gill and co when we built the email publication system for the Clinton White House was that mass listening is a really hard problem. At the time, the President received two 20 ton trucks of mail every day. Every single letter was read by a large team of volunteers. This was then digested through multiple layers resulting in a one page summary delivered to the President every day. Changing from atoms to bits does not change the nature of the problem. One thing we can do is to get the Web site right. The links to the List of Current Working Groups and the ietf discussion list should be front and center on the front page. today they are buried many clicks down and I have to hunt and peck every single time I try to find them. A link in a paragraph of text is much less prominent than one in a list or a dropdown. On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 11:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > I don=E2=80=99t think the proposals was to filter input. I agree that it = is > important to listen and haven different ways to provide feedback such tha= t > we can get a large variation of different views. That=E2=80=99s one of th= e reason > why we have the open mic in the first place. > > However, the open mic is not only a way to provide input because there > also is discussion and a large number people are =E2=80=9Cforced=E2=80=9D= to listen (more > than e.g. on a mailings). Also the open mic is and should not be the only > way to provide input. > > So the question for me is: how can we direct the input to the right input > channel? And how can we use the limited amount of valuable time we have i= n > the plenary most efficiently? For the second question for me that mean th= at > we should try to use interactive discussion time in front of a large > audience for those topics that this large audience is most interested in. > This is not about surpassing other input (that would be a bad outcome) bu= t > maybe direct some of the input to other input channels and have a more > structured approach about what to discuss in the open mic session at the > plenary. > > Mirja > > > > > > On 30. Jul 2021, at 13:45, Keith Moore > wrote: > > > > On 7/29/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > > >> I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is too > easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line. > >> > > IMO, this is a sign of strength. An organization that can tolerate > input from anyone can have a conscience, can be self-correcting. Even i= f > listening to such input is often tiring, occasionally such input is quite > valuable. I don't know of any effective way of filtering out the > less-valuable input without also filtering the more-valuable input. > > Keith > > > > > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000055cdad05c85b0c77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A l= esson I learned from Jock Gill and co when we built the email publication s= ystem for the Clinton White House was that mass listening is a really hard = problem.

At the time, the= President received two 20 ton trucks of mail every day. Every single lette= r was read by a large team of volunteers. This was then digested through mu= ltiple layers resulting in a one page summary delivered to the President ev= ery day.

Changing from at= oms to bits does not change the nature of the problem.

One thing we can do is to get the Web site ri= ght.

=
The links to the Lis= t of Current Working Groups and the ietf discussion list should be front an= d center on the front page. today they are buried=C2=A0many clicks down and= I have to hunt and peck every single time I try to find them.

A link in a paragraph of text is much= less prominent than one in a list or a dropdown.


On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 11:44 = AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlew= ind.net> wrote:
I don=E2=80=99t think the proposals was to filter input. I agree tha= t it is important to listen and haven different ways to provide feedback su= ch that we can get a large variation of different views. That=E2=80=99s one= of the reason why we have the open mic in the first place.

However, the open mic is not only a way to provide input because there=C2= =A0 also is discussion and a large number people are =E2=80=9Cforced=E2=80= =9D to listen (more than e.g. on a mailings). Also the open mic is and shou= ld not be the only way to provide input.

So the question for me is: how can we direct the input to the right input c= hannel? And how can we use the limited amount of valuable time we have in t= he plenary most efficiently? For the second question for me that mean that = we should try to use interactive discussion time in front of a large audien= ce for those topics that this large audience is most interested in. This is= not about surpassing other input (that would be a bad outcome) but maybe d= irect some of the input to other input channels and have a more structured = approach about what to discuss in the open mic session at the plenary.

Mirja




> On 30. Jul 2021, at 13:45, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> wro= te:
>
> On 7/29/21 10:12 AM, Salz, Rich wrote:
>
>> I think the biggest problem with previous plenaries is that it is = too easy for the general public to get on a soapbox, er the microphone line= .
>>
> IMO, this is a sign of strength.=C2=A0 =C2=A0An organization that can = tolerate input from anyone can have a conscience, can be self-correcting.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if listening to such input is often tiring, occasionally = such input is quite valuable.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't know of any effective= way of filtering out the less-valuable input without also filtering the mo= re-valuable input.
> Keith
>
>
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--00000000000055cdad05c85b0c77-- From nobody Sat Jul 31 00:42:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FA423A1B26 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:41:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AqJ4tcgUxjRd for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CB703A1B25 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id j18so8694373ile.8 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:41:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IP2QCodfITn3bafAK/NhWCZnK7DGdcZd8J5mkTkDUJk=; b=N9PBK8SX81zqnQNT5tqRJhAm2qDau5oINxhqrjfCDP8+yoSpTuFBQ47LSl0oaTPs9v Zs9++1yO9od9ajmSPAH0ITtVbfJL/Rf2TX630DCw89FbEwENusDE+ikAW/3QoINjfAiK I0AY1oFnbDDqLXFT4RgkrgYTAFHDbu3PcZGdd7CEBx54++qdLGEyLzF0Dw3h/F/iG/0G f/kTKygNejeyC8MFVW8RV+x7Y6tC/mc4eE5y6Vjxh5vprHLQSd2PywpB87cLmxnTCmrQ ctKkQSG/9YZtfUrRL6bKRqHZ1suZkB51qnWZct55BHzAzZsmx4Fcz47DFyntg5mjXBfh xp1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IP2QCodfITn3bafAK/NhWCZnK7DGdcZd8J5mkTkDUJk=; b=D6zYmMuLG2ZKVdZsDTsx+28JjRNyD+elPgfUhs/ZrSIMOi+gltZTkwzkrmKv9JVChH dlmUuykDei1T7fTpGHUZBGeqjIFelpmCO0NKeG7cGCqqpWqr1SituNcTP4jobV+QadCf roAEpvkl3G7n9E3XpN89bpOG5gsEsJocb7UQlOsm5DuydzMKy3MgM85p+VWqe+Nq3sTc xgIdYOLpcRXAGYCs7gQQj6AnCtU4CsYWSbpCEhr4MGtRH4Gsn2QOB+6DXemeK0Lh9bu+ zNpTpo8OdpA390A/VurJH5+Il2/3g0UTR4Y+BqoTVeG1gYc7abI6iZOX1WikIzthPwzW Vn3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yhLu23EO9FK/De+xbUY2i7IJJTcG4UjESqHZ1ZhxjZhTPKM8b 2Pwcb+dhvXNCdGVWaZWiRUbI20cZyDw6y88M1eiU5NF3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwSr+B7QrWP2xeFAek90DJXo7E0F+/1EDejJ44XNsiloTZd4LYEaHSByKqtlet3KRDZ8cqfNX/hxtyLKfWI+qk= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c043:: with SMTP id o3mr1657697ilf.189.1627717310595; Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:41:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71BCF2C6-7AB6-4C34-9DE3-742239FA2D2B@eggert.org> <22F70BC4-6EB6-40D3-B3D1-E8D819630497@akamai.com> <37d79667-87d5-4fdf-aded-eeed72d6629d@www.fastmail.com> <742b1436-f94b-1954-3bb6-5a7df772f720@lear.ch> <88061b39-7f6b-0d17-51ef-a2a6e1e3d884@huitema.net> <8998f405-c687-258f-2712-7bdebc1a972f@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Andrew Campling , Keith Moore , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000017c71b05c8667881" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Meta - Re: Additional text around SAA for bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 07:41:58 -0000 --00000000000017c71b05c8667881 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed I was having hard time distinguishing parts of this discussion from the classic =E2=80=9CSimple Sabotage Field Manual=E2=80=9D. Here is t= he most relevant section: Organizations and Conferences - *Insist on doing everything through =E2=80=9Cchannels.=E2=80=9D Never = permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.* - *Make =E2=80=9Cspeeches.=E2=80=9D Talk as frequently as possible and a= t great length. Illustrate your =E2=80=9Cpoints=E2=80=9D by long anecdotes and accounts = of personal experiences.* - *When possible, refer all matters to committees, for =E2=80=9Cfurther = study and consideration.=E2=80=9D Attempt to make the committee as large as po= ssible =E2=80=94 never less than five.* - *Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.* - *Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.= * - *Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision.* - *Advocate =E2=80=9Ccaution.=E2=80=9D Be =E2=80=9Creasonable=E2=80=9D a= nd urge your fellow-conferees to be =E2=80=9Creasonable=E2=80=9D and avoid haste which might result in em= barrassments or difficulties later on.* On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:23 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:15 PM Andrew Campling > wrote: > >> On Tue 22nd July 2021 at 14:51, Keith Moore >> wrote: >> > In general, when a discussion is fragmented by any means, it becomes >> difficult for all participants to keep track of what's being said, more >> difficult to determine whether consensus exists or what it is. Frequent >> interim meetings (whether in person or virtual) present similar problems= . >> >> +1 >> >> Issues relating to the use of GitHub continue to crop up on various >> mailing lists, clearly current working practices are not satisfactory. >> This seems like a good topic to raise yet again at the IETF Plenary >> tomorrow. >> > > Well, I agree that the current practices are not satisfactory, but that's > because there are strong disagreements about what the best practices are, > and so we have a compromise which doesn't fully satisfy anyone, that bein= g > the nature of compromise. > > -Ekr > > >> Andrew >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000017c71b05c8667881 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I noticed I was having hard time distinguishing parts of = this discussion from the classic =E2=80=9CSimple Sabotage Field Manual=E2= =80=9D.=C2=A0 Here is the most relevant section:

Organizations and Conferences

  • Insist on doing everyth= ing through =E2=80=9Cchannels.=E2=80=9D Never permit short-cuts to be taken= in order to expedite decisions.
  • Make =E2=80=9Cspeeches.=E2=80=9D Talk as frequent= ly as possible and at great length. Illustrate your =E2=80=9Cpoints=E2=80= =9D by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences.
  • When possible, refer a= ll matters to committees, for =E2=80=9Cfurther study and consideration.=E2= =80=9D Attempt to make the committee as large as possible =E2=80=94 never l= ess than five.
  • Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.
  • Haggle over precise = wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.
  • Refer back to matters decided up= on at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisabil= ity of that decision.
  • Advocate =E2=80=9Ccaution.=E2=80=9D Be =E2=80=9Creasonable= =E2=80=9D and urge your fellow-conferees to be =E2=80=9Creasonable=E2=80=9D= and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later= on.

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:23 PM Eric Rescorla <= ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12= :15 PM Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> wrote:
On Tue 22nd July 2021 at 14:51, Keith Moore <moore@network-here= tics.com> wrote:
> In general, when a discussion is fragmented by any means, it becomes d= ifficult for all participants to keep track of what's being said, more = difficult to determine whether consensus exists or what it is. Frequent int= erim meetings (whether in person or virtual) present similar problems.

+1

Issues relating to the use of GitHub continue to crop up on various mailing= lists, clearly current working practices are not satisfactory.=C2=A0 This = seems like a good topic to raise yet again at the IETF Plenary tomorrow.=C2= =A0

Well, I agree that the current pra= ctices are not satisfactory, but that's because there are strong disagr= eements about what the best practices are, and so we have a compromise whic= h doesn't fully satisfy anyone, that being the nature of compromise.

-Ekr
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