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Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:20:59 +0000 From: Andrew Campling To: Vittorio Bertola , Lloyd W , Bron Gondwana CC: "terminology@ietf.org" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "rfc-ise@rfc-editor.org" Thread-Topic: [Terminology] offensive terminology draft progressing on independent stream Thread-Index: AQHXndGNk3D3T7xhxkOt2qtUvVC3lKuSoFyA Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:20:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6cb09f59-823e-f01d-9976-77ece1ae7c6b@lear.ch> <55837B88-6989-4089-A80E-BE82FC4B8FBC@yahoo.co.uk> <755345102.28972.1630309487055@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <755345102.28972.1630309487055@appsuite-gw2.open-xchange.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: open-xchange.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;open-xchange.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7cc4a6b0-489a-478c-5805-08d96f079452 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO0P265MB5096: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g6sm213144pjs.11.2021.09.03.15.07.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 15:07:12 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 10:07:08 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 22:07:23 -0000 Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I strongly support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission sponsored by the General AD. I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list 'product pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be 'product and service pricing'. However, a topic of technical importance in service provision is *metrics* used for measuring services. I think the draft could usefully discuss the dividing line between technical specifications of metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example monetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK). FYA: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 Regards Brian Carpenter On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants > Authors : Joel M. Halpern > Brad Biddle > Jay Daley > Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt > Pages : 6 > Date : 2021-08-30 > > Abstract: > This document provides guidance for IETF participants on compliance > with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in connection > with IETF activities. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ > > There is also an HTML version available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.html > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Fri Sep 3 15:23:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391163A3123 for ; 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boundary="d4hzVLU8ertFd2csKrsIZ7zmGDGuX3ueR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: --d4hzVLU8ertFd2csKrsIZ7zmGDGuX3ueR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D300DAC89BFC71DE8DF72095" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D300DAC89BFC71DE8DF72095 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high or the wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to get that right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but would object to the current text. As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) discuss the = fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as we know and how that affects implementations that might use that thing, especially those taking an open source approach. Cheers, S. (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with differences. On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I strongly = support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission sponsored by the = General AD. >=20 > I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list 'product= pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be 'product and serv= ice pricing'. However, a topic of technical importance in service provisi= on is *metrics* used for measuring services. I think the draft could usef= ully discuss the dividing line between technical specifications of metric= s (OK), mechanisms for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communi= cating pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example m= onetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK). >=20 > FYA: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 > On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories. >> >> >> Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants >> Authors : Joel M. Halpern >> Brad Biddle >> Jay Daley >> Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt >> Pages : 6 >> Date : 2021-08-30 >> >> Abstract: >> This document provides guidance for IETF participants on complianc= e >> with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in connectio= n >> with IETF activities. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ >> >> There is also an HTML version available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00= =2Ehtml >> >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> >=20 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<3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:04:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Brian E Carpenter , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000efb18805cb1f534a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:05:02 -0000 --000000000000efb18805cb1f534a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I think I understand the motivation here, but I'm not sure the text is right. " As the IETF is a standards development environment where representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, participants should not discuss the following topics: * product pricing * profit margins * business relationships between specific vendors and customers * details of particular supply chains * specific market opportunities * employee compensation or benefits While not all discussions of these topics would necessarily be antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics altogether best mitigates antitrust risks." So, clearly, using an IETF list to agree on pricing is not appropriate (and not very intelligent, imo). But, is it wrong to point out "business relationships between specific vendors and customers" in evaluating an I-D? I am not sure that is the case, and this draft seems to preclude such discussion. How else would one raise venue-shopping or rubber-stamping? thanks, Rob On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 3:24 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high > or the wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to > get that right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but > would object to the current text. > > As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) discuss the > fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as > we know and how that affects implementations that might use > that thing, especially those taking an open source approach. > > Cheers, > S. > > (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with > differences. > > On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I strongly > support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission sponsored by the > General AD. > > > > I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list 'product > pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be 'product and service > pricing'. However, a topic of technical importance in service provision is > *metrics* used for measuring services. I think the draft could usefully > discuss the dividing line between technical specifications of metrics (OK), > mechanisms for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating > pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example monetary > values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK). > > > > FYA: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > > > > On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > >> > >> > >> Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants > >> Authors : Joel M. Halpern > >> Brad Biddle > >> Jay Daley > >> Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt > >> Pages : 6 > >> Date : 2021-08-30 > >> > >> Abstract: > >> This document provides guidance for IETF participants on compliance > >> with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in connection > >> with IETF activities. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ > >> > >> There is also an HTML version available at: > >> > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.html > >> > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> I-D-Announce mailing list > >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >> > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000efb18805cb1f534a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I think I understand the motivation= here, but I'm not sure the text is right.

=C2= =A0 " As the IETF is a standards development environment where
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present,=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0participants should not discuss the following topics:
<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0product pricing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0profit marg= ins
=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0business relationships between specific vendors= and customers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0details of particular supply chains<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0specific market opportunities
=C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2= =A0employee compensation or benefits

=C2=A0 =C2=A0While not all disc= ussions of these topics would necessarily be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0antitrust viol= ations, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics
=C2=A0 =C2=A0altoge= ther best mitigates antitrust risks."

So,= clearly, using an IETF list to agree on pricing is not appropriate (and no= t very intelligent, imo).

But, is it wrong to poin= t out "business relationships between specific vendors and customers&q= uot; in evaluating an I-D? I am not sure that is the case, and this draft s= eems to preclude such discussion. How else would one raise venue-shopping o= r rubber-stamping?

thanks,
Rob

On F= ri, Sep 3, 2021 at 3:24 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high
or the wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to
get that right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but
would object to the current text.

As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) discuss the fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as
we know and how that affects implementations that might use
that thing, especially those taking an open source approach.

Cheers,
S.

(*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with
differences.

On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I strongly= support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission sponsored by the G= eneral AD.
>
> I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list 'pr= oduct pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be 'produ= ct and service pricing'. However, a topic of technical importance in se= rvice provision is *metrics* used for measuring services. I think the draft= could usefully discuss the dividing line between technical specifications = of metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for = communicating pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with exam= ple monetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK). >
> FYA: https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00
>
> Regards
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
>
> On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts= directories.
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Joel M. Halpern
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brad Biddle
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jay Daley
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ha= lpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= : 6
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = : 2021-08-30
>>
>> Abstract:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document provides guidance for IETF partic= ipants on compliance
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust= risks in connection
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with IETF activities.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/
>>
>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>> https://www.ietf= .org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.html
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Ann= ounce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d= -announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<= /a>
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>
>
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Gendispatch mailing list
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([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm276590pjm.55.2021.09.03.16.16.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 16:16:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 11:16:18 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:16:30 -0000 On 04-Sep-21 10:23, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high > or the wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to > get that right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but > would object to the current text. > > As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) discuss the > fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as > we know and how that affects implementations that might use > that thing, especially those taking an open source approach. Sorry, which of the bullets in section 5 says we should not discuss that? We have specific non-BCP guidance about that sort of discussion in RFC3699. Brian > > Cheers, > S. > > (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with > differences. > > On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I strongly support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission sponsored by the General AD. >> >> I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list 'product pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be 'product and service pricing'. However, a topic of technical importance in service provision is *metrics* used for measuring services. I think the draft could usefully discuss the dividing line between technical specifications of metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example monetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK). >> >> FYA: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >>> >>> >>> Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants >>> Authors : Joel M. Halpern >>> Brad Biddle >>> Jay Daley >>> Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt >>> Pages : 6 >>> Date : 2021-08-30 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This document provides guidance for IETF participants on compliance >>> with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in connection >>> with IETF activities. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ >>> >>> There is also an HTML version available at: >>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.html >>> >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>> >> From nobody Fri Sep 3 16:29:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B953A0971 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HxqB9QJp8oqI for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32EA53A096D for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id n13-20020a17090a4e0d00b0017946980d8dso520615pjh.5 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CCPGYt0Q6rc1eZafApkZuxFwJjABHhKr4Gf+pM7yrlQ=; b=HTuoVeecLO0uNRO2Dhzz7+VUoDWDmnE4YPTnLfi5Z7a5slIo/V/yJvt3qMsH/jl72E OxeUcISyyyc77sBG2fNeNIRC7tOWWKCW2zhViI+CBLpyO+gEHBXNVMVPk9ZhUnZXp4u8 MsTopiHLToOs4Sw02dh6lDuukb/tdlrr57OyKM1ANvpQXM6NQqedJDfO2LK7jm1uOH1L i6/fHgICcGXoikdEjDNQYLciPyZeHJwL7oQRT19rKskyZdVuK7GmZ9t6AUt+XA5Sr/e1 3ZBvYNKD6V+ecJyg5MJTBFCE4LGDiaQ42o/hvNSw1JkwKUDK4CpsBbeh3lUWXHiUi6sX BUew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=CCPGYt0Q6rc1eZafApkZuxFwJjABHhKr4Gf+pM7yrlQ=; b=LF9aDe44yi5p/5z5+9Udaix4xHDY0AdCwx1KGeOJRhkvM2VZWQ66UjFoGv3B5VXEct IBqbSFEZiRfogQ89wiD0aXfIMIRouvik1/o3056ZAKQKIx22JuUdd9lItG3fhIVI4E2b HqlPH9guxd+gOQFqTYtjJ3yeGhhCjKDUofwgpbD7lQZMqz6QVoqXIKgXKtGH8tF5aTNx rLk6jHwbRcAZa2DEwAU33mlrvkizw9b4Vv6WecWvC1R9GmPv0Zp/8V9vPQbqVI4wfwXF ZIfUd8vmzi8ypzmySXy9+q9i5WupVZFSdn/bCAKMAuNy855YEWK1yDQ4sAY3FF6hwJAg aHMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533faVJURZ+U8SXIhXPWIRx3eizBc6iudmR0sqwGAcxEL6Qaojoi l+MW+Mgsaq/cTJnxQF6ku5NmD+WfR5JTPw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxafdpsy8DvWBUm+4DfcBBv4GkvHaMSX9WDc7iQKjE/xN+qh8z9l7MQUJ9hWCV/ygRq64/A9g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e550:b0:137:734f:1d84 with SMTP id n16-20020a170902e55000b00137734f1d84mr1079593plf.27.1630711757163; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 16:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 68sm311075pjz.0.2021.09.03.16.29.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 16:29:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre , Stephen Farrell Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <48d4018f-b9d8-16ac-4351-45ff0845e522@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 11:29:12 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:29:24 -0000 On 04-Sep-21 11:04, Rob Sayre wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I think I understand the motivation here, but I'm not sure the text is = right. >=20 > =C2=A0 " As the IETF is a standards development environment where > =C2=A0 =C2=A0representatives from competitors are highly likely to be p= resent, > =C2=A0 =C2=A0participants should not discuss the following topics: >=20 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0product pricing > =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0profit margins > =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0business relationships between specific vendors an= d customers > =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0details of particular supply chains > =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0specific market opportunities > =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0employee compensation or benefits >=20 > =C2=A0 =C2=A0While not all discussions of these topics would necessaril= y be > =C2=A0 =C2=A0antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoiding thes= e topics > =C2=A0 =C2=A0altogether best mitigates antitrust risks." >=20 > So, clearly, using an IETF list to agree on pricing is not appropriate = (and not very intelligent, imo). >=20 > But, is it wrong to point out "business relationships between specific = vendors and customers" in evaluating an I-D? I am not sure that is the ca= se, and this draft seems to preclude such discussion. How else would one = raise venue-shopping or rubber-stamping? By stating that a draft is describing a proprietary technology and isn't = suitable for IETF discussion unless the proprietor gives change control t= o the IETF. That's happened many times. I don't see anything in the draft=20 that forbids this. It just says: the underlying business arrangements sho= uld not be discussed in the IETF. To me, that's nothing new. Brian >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 3:24 PM Stephen Farrell > wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high > or the wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to > get that right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but > would object to the current text. >=20 > As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) discus= s the > fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as > we know and how that affects implementations that might use > that thing, especially those taking an open source approach. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with > differences. >=20 > On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I str= ongly support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission sponsored b= y the General AD. > > > > I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list 'p= roduct pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be 'product an= d service pricing'. However, a topic of technical importance in service p= rovision is *metrics* used for measuring services. I think the draft coul= d usefully discuss the dividing line between technical specifications of = metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for c= ommunicating pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with exa= mple monetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK).= > > > > FYA: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metric= s-00 > > > > Regards > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter > > > > On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draf= ts directories. > >> > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Joel M. Halpern > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brad Biddle > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jay Daley > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= : 6 > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=20 : 2021-08-30 > >> > >> Abstract: > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document provides guidance for IETF part= icipants on compliance > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitru= st risks in connection > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with IETF activities. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antit= rust/ > >> > >> There is also an HTML version available at: > >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitr= ust-00.html > >> > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> I-D-Announce mailing list > >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >> > > > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 3 16:37:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938303A09FE for ; 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Fri, 03 Sep 2021 16:36:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <48d4018f-b9d8-16ac-4351-45ff0845e522@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <48d4018f-b9d8-16ac-4351-45ff0845e522@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:36:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Stephen Farrell , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c751305cb1fc6db" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:37:05 -0000 --0000000000007c751305cb1fc6db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 4:29 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > By stating that a draft is describing a proprietary technology and isn't > suitable for IETF discussion unless the proprietor gives change control to > the IETF. That's happened many times. I think this description is too reductive. It could be "open source" and "royalty free", but still be in the interests of just a few entities. The "end run" provisions in other RFCs are also a concern here. > I don't see anything in the draft > that forbids this. It just says: the underlying business arrangements > should not be discussed in the IETF. To me, that's nothing new. > If it's "nothing new", I am not sure why it needs to be in the draft. thanks, Rob --0000000000007c751305cb1fc6db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

By stating that a draft is describing a proprietary technology and isn'= t suitable for IETF discussion unless the proprietor gives change control t= o the IETF. That's happened many times.

I think this description is too reductive. It could be "open source&= quot; and "royalty free", but still be in the interests of just a= few entities. The "end run" provisions in other RFCs are also a = concern here.
=C2=A0
I don't see anything in the draft
that forbids this. It just says: the underlying business arrangements shoul= d not be discussed in the IETF. To me, that's nothing new.

If it's "nothing new", I am not sure = why it needs to be in the draft.

thanks,
Rob

=C2=A0
--0000000000007c751305cb1fc6db-- From nobody Fri Sep 3 17:09:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB54E3A081D for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 17:09:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kVaLpiVdnJrC for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30DCC3A081B for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H1Zlw5SYlz1nttk; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 17:09:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630714172; bh=nc0mfXARV7/5kJt4jRl8yOd6D6MJvFkndDzL7lbld4g=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=E/qWDnSRIfCr5M/7/MOoabE12u/8TG+dqinS9MKfZnAwWUW96fB8bMIEziFnSuAYZ zDvxs+zvKwHyirgZoOp7fnV72xgVYz1KAcv+TeJWmjGy0rGM8CiSKpGHB2zrvXoErE 0Y1jo/crBnIjeR7Kd5H5CcvETQY2Ugm43i/gk2UU= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H1Zlv3nNWz1ntVZ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 17:09:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre , Stephen Farrell Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <9ca967d9-1548-4d8b-f5a0-54a35c59d279@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:09:29 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 00:09:38 -0000 We wrote this as guidelines, not rules, because there are always some edge cases. But that list (which you quote below) is I think the list almost every lawyer I have talked to about this gave me to start with. If you are talking about any of those things, you need to be VERY careful. Which is also why we suggest talking to your own lawyer if you are going to venture into those spaces. Yours, Joel PS: I appreciate folks are starting to look at this draft. All comments more than welcome. If this is going to advance, it needs community discussion and I hope eventually community support. On 9/3/2021 7:04 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > Hi, > > I think I understand the motivation here, but I'm not sure the text is > right. > >   " As the IETF is a standards development environment where >    representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, >    participants should not discuss the following topics: > >    *  product pricing >    *  profit margins >    *  business relationships between specific vendors and customers >    *  details of particular supply chains >    *  specific market opportunities >    *  employee compensation or benefits > >    While not all discussions of these topics would necessarily be >    antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics >    altogether best mitigates antitrust risks." > > So, clearly, using an IETF list to agree on pricing is not appropriate > (and not very intelligent, imo). > > But, is it wrong to point out "business relationships between specific > vendors and customers" in evaluating an I-D? I am not sure that is the > case, and this draft seems to preclude such discussion. How else would > one raise venue-shopping or rubber-stamping? > > thanks, > Rob > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 3:24 PM Stephen Farrell > > wrote: > > > Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high > or the wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to > get that right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but > would object to the current text. > > As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) discuss > the > fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as > we know and how that affects implementations that might use > that thing, especially those taking an open source approach. > > Cheers, > S. > > (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with > differences. > > On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I > strongly support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission > sponsored by the General AD. > > > > I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list > 'product pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be > 'product and service pricing'. However, a topic of technical > importance in service provision is *metrics* used for measuring > services. I think the draft could usefully discuss the dividing line > between technical specifications of metrics (OK), mechanisms for > communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating pricing of > metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example monetary > values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not OK). > > > > FYA: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 > > > > > Regards > >     Brian Carpenter > > > > On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org > wrote: > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > Internet-Drafts directories. > >> > >> > >>          Title           : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants > >>          Authors         : Joel M. Halpern > >>                            Brad Biddle > >>                            Jay Daley > >>      Filename        : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt > >>      Pages           : 6 > >>      Date            : 2021-08-30 > >> > >> Abstract: > >>     This document provides guidance for IETF participants on > compliance > >>     with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust risks in > connection > >>     with IETF activities. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ > >> > >> There is also an HTML version available at: > >> > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.html > > >> > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> I-D-Announce mailing list > >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >> > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > From nobody Fri Sep 3 17:12:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA63A3A0843 for ; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the biggest attacks against the Internet is the generalized spying on= Internet users. Preventing that spying is a fairly important topic when deb= ating drafts and standards. Yet it is very hard to debate that without also d= iscussing surveillance as a business model. So let's be careful with the po= tential backlash of good intentions! -- Christian Huitema=20 > On Sep 3, 2021, at 4:36 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 4:29 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> By stating that a draft is describing a proprietary technology and isn't s= uitable for IETF discussion unless the proprietor gives change control to th= e IETF. That's happened many times. >=20 > I think this description is too reductive. It could be "open source" and "= royalty free", but still be in the interests of just a few entities. The "en= d run" provisions in other RFCs are also a concern here. > =20 >> I don't see anything in the draft=20 >> that forbids this. It just says: the underlying business arrangements sho= uld not be discussed in the IETF. To me, that's nothing new. >=20 > If it's "nothing new", I am not sure why it needs to be in the draft. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 > =20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail-6B6D1F92-62A4-431E-BB77-40F770FC0BF4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the biggest attacks against the Inte= rnet is the generalized spying on Internet users. Preventing that spying is a= fairly important topic when debating drafts and standards. Yet it is very h= ard to debate that without also discussing  surveillance as a business m= odel. So let's be careful with the potential backlash of good intentions!
-- Christian Huitema 

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">On Sep 3, 2021, at 4:36 PM, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gm= ail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at= 4:29 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

By stating that a draft is describing a proprietary technology and isn't sui= table for IETF discussion unless the proprietor gives change control to the I= ETF. That's happened many times.

I think th= is description is too reductive. It could be "open source" and "royalty free= ", but still be in the interests of just a few entities. The "end run" provi= sions in other RFCs are also a concern here.
 
I don't see anything in the draft that forbids this. It just says: the underlying business arrangements should= not be discussed in the IETF. To me, that's nothing new.

If it's "nothing new", I am not sure why it needs to be in= the draft.

thanks,
Rob

 
--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispat= ch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatc= h
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boundary="wLO9gRZktY8AJc0kqgrYBS4mqd0N0YZnA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian E Carpenter , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> --wLO9gRZktY8AJc0kqgrYBS4mqd0N0YZnA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7E245EFC9F050148B3D45C19" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7E245EFC9F050148B3D45C19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 04/09/2021 00:16, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 04-Sep-21 10:23, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>=20 >> Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high or the >> wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to get that >> right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but would object >> to the current text. >>=20 >> As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) >> discuss the fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as we know >> and how that affects implementations that might use that thing, >> especially those taking an open source approach. >=20 > Sorry, which of the bullets in section 5 says we should not discuss > that?=20 Perhaps it depends on how one interprets the text. I'd not want discussion as in the example above to be cutoff by someone claiming that "no cost" is a price (1st bullet), nor that one can't consider popular open source library features (or the lack thereof) because that's a "supply chain" issue (bullet 4). Again though - I'm not against the draft but do think the text needs non-trivial discussion before hitting a last call, which'd affect my answer to a "dispatch" question: basically I'd not be ok with pushing this ASAP as an AD sponsored document, which I think was your reaction. I'd maybe be fine with AD sponsored after some community discussion, but = not with the text as-is. Cheers, S. > We have specific non-BCP guidance about that sort of discussion > in RFC3699. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, S. >>=20 >> (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with=20 >> differences. >>=20 >> On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I >>> strongly support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission >>> sponsored by the General AD. >>>=20 >>> I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list >>> 'product pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be >>> 'product and service pricing'. However, a topic of technical >>> importance in service provision is *metrics* used for measuring >>> services. I think the draft could usefully discuss the dividing >>> line between technical specifications of metrics (OK), mechanisms >>> for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating >>> pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example >>> monetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not >>> OK). >>>=20 >>> FYA: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 >>>=20 >>> Regards Brian Carpenter >>>=20 >>> On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Title : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants=20 >>>> Authors : Joel M. Halpern Brad Biddle Jay Daley=20 >>>> Filename : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt=20 >>>> Pages : 6 Date : 2021-08-30 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: This document provides guidance for IETF participants >>>> on compliance with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust >>>> risks in connection with IETF activities. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=20 >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust= / >>>> >>>> >>>>=20 There is also an HTML version available at: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-= 00.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>=20 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >>>> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org=20 >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce=20 >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>>> 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Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmEyxCYFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+rA 3w//fTHLVi1qEQJv+SuR6xcQAHpVy0PdvCUy+8R90CdVHQHkjW7Y0TEM6yTSiMH5Wqq/9/cH+p5d nCtHUrdJ3Dg8M/l1YHvtDPq9P4K/UCb62cK1mzy5MBcELmRWvk5cIQ2yqgw1nHu+hXsdQc2ie1HB C2eGin6xcgYNlThkHai1U2egC52Hb7Kk548wDgPaBlunJueZz2PQayH6D+sdXsSdE1vy52wwut13 6zawaV/nTJF6qmYsiPmxUB4vy8EaW7Q9xwMFfhDjY6EJIg5bFn7MUANhlMokL9Bm1M6NyvasaG6Q X+YcJIbH68STMemh3uA+jpaCWcvenGPUy/aMddBRMQjGhWd/SAfWPKU0EHfWuIB34qnWArJAx45o xEqNjfBb+R41zS7Ks1yIRpG5IobbGtGBT2BrIA/jbPLZ9c0IRiUYBwJJ1emj2c6fe9ICJJGMBZ87 JymzxJqgELgHcT/qzZl01APHcYQ8JOt8jk+gRCCKVX8v5dVkHIDSv8G3NAoE0sgWV8TGpC4Fjabl q9SmhpFH2x9VnHEsBm91h0Pqbp5nVlrT57HTdozFycWukrElzmw0/hQ8cUMnvrJpRiNpOFKVk0J0 is9T2LEaRSM1pO1omHewdxvuP3Mm3usr3w8rmbEb4qr2TYaZN/w21odOkponSVgghXIVa1SLf7jJ PBE= =EXs8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qGobsK6ZvWvqHWYLYcCcRBkGlQhp7Wwvt-- From nobody 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<9ca967d9-1548-4d8b-f5a0-54a35c59d279@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9ca967d9-1548-4d8b-f5a0-54a35c59d279@joelhalpern.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:04:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Stephen Farrell , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000046c92905cb210010" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 01:04:51 -0000 --00000000000046c92905cb210010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 5:09 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > We wrote this as guidelines, not rules, because there are always some > edge cases. > > But that list (which you quote below) is I think the list almost every > lawyer I have talked to about this gave me to start with. Are you saying lawyers told you such a "guideline" in an IETF BCP would be legally helpful to IETF participants? If so, maybe the lawyers should write the draft. In the past, as you write below, I think the advice has recommended "talking to your own lawyer". > If you are > talking about any of those things, you need to be VERY careful. Which > is also why we suggest talking to your own lawyer if you are going to > venture into those spaces. > This kind of thing has been discussed many times before. Here's an old one: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/GLvb1NlwrixB9CupSncPBmVa4ho/ What has changed, and why should this be a BCP? Just trying to understand why this change is happening now. thanks, Rob --00000000000046c92905cb210010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 5:09 PM Joel M. Ha= lpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= ; wrote:
We wrote this as guidelines, not rules, because there a= re always some
edge cases.

But that list (which you quote below) is I think the list almost every
lawyer I have talked to about this gave me to start with.
=
Are you saying lawyers told you such a "guideline"= in an IETF BCP would be legally helpful to IETF participants? If so, maybe= the lawyers should write the draft.

In the past, = as you write below, I think the advice has recommended "talking to you= r own lawyer".
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 If you are
talking about any of those things, you need to be VERY careful.=C2=A0 Which=
is also why we suggest talking to your own lawyer if you are going to
venture into those spaces.

This kind of= thing has been discussed many times before. Here's an old one:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-pol= icy/GLvb1NlwrixB9CupSncPBmVa4ho/

What has chan= ged, and why should this be a BCP? Just trying to understand why this chang= e is happening now.

thanks,
Rob

--00000000000046c92905cb210010-- From nobody Fri Sep 3 18:18:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263663A1064; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:18:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=fqJD/n6j; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ez6IeAI0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9b_ILu8aIgCe; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D75463A1067; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6780232008C3; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 21:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 21:18:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=F oJuY2oMQ+2xtNzLfA7b7P2qI6T8o1MmEIDIM2mL6wo=; b=fqJD/n6j0GWCvmEr5 Z/LtZL/WFEnKip9Gt69yAMQvqw+q2dCl6LhntXoOLXm99T8ZeSjk3EI2aYuFo19f zaKrRkDjMCBct/Q9+D5/2kV9wNxE9aJTI7VxXdXUc46FLDFtsLVCdf7jGazqVHaQ z2bYZwWjUt/muopn16PXUV0exzNPZdpgGYnTGab251dWVg3kLPGTn0xCkaOVGd0X 9Gx7ajyK4CVQWR9cSWf0Ta793Ao34vhRZ3m5m4Ia2QHVZs7Ty3hIzo774UTBORic KERmTxbXl8E616pICI0CjqiM45pEOhpSMveWp6AQ8ZOmi17FtbRU12yYUdoHoNzf zMqfw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=FoJuY2oMQ+2xtNzLfA7b7P2qI6T8o1MmEIDIM2mL6 wo=; b=ez6IeAI0GECSba9uVgIeG3c03ZcYRd0Pztn8WmwcBbH3N4UquOeYw+w2M vWIdIRGgQL8ApcBqA4qDBDhloTI3d8lCQnW6EkrMBmUkFYBz5DvFrtHxG8ddakP4 OANKOFPMwLTh6LMFg9YALd7UaF5pDINvgcwnCLoXH/lQ15mZo//g4c+C6I7AdiGl yiqMGpMi4/1UgCh/yWBMCJ84JrF1ilF7G0th1r7gWZ6w4nmY1rLaqqdGmDr55aHY EkIrrD/9hEz06WGf0UTdmVQCsizdvb2Qf/GWjFuDZZ7LlS0VeUUXEqLgUK6WQ6JR K1uqpdedCi4tAVm3+WmEaP4Ge+Ifg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddruddvkedggedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeefgedvgfejgedvteeuudekveefhfehleeiveejjeekhfffheekjeeikeejtdeh jeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 21:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 11:18:21 +1000 Cc: Christian Huitema , "Joel M. Halpern" , Jay Daley , brad@biddle.law Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4A98E63E-88B4-46CB-8069-35E0F0D423CD@mnot.net> References: To: GENDISPATCH List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 01:18:40 -0000 Hi Christian et al, > On 4 Sep 2021, at 10:12 am, Christian Huitema = wrote: >=20 > One of the biggest attacks against the Internet is the generalized = spying on Internet users. Preventing that spying is a fairly important = topic when debating drafts and standards. Yet it is very hard to debate = that without also discussing surveillance as a business model. So let's = be careful with the potential backlash of good intentions! The language used is 'business relationships between specific vendors = and customers', noting the use of 'specific'. That does not preclude = talking about general market dynamics such as surveillance capitalism. If you want to use the relationship between a specific vendor and their = customers or suppliers as an example of such a market dynamic, I can see = how you'd be concerned about this language. I don't see a good way to = carve that out without refusing right of reply to those actually = involved in that relationship.=20 I think the root of the issue here might be that 'should not discuss' is = intended to give guidance about what's safe to do, but it can (and = probably will) be used to squash some future discussions -- i.e., the = text can be weaponised.=20 A potential fix would be to separate out that line as well as 'details = of particular supply chains' and 'specific market opportunities' into a = separate section where 'should not discuss the following topics' is = replaced with something like 'should be aware of the antitrust = implications of discussing the following topics.' Alternatively, we could try to qualify these statements to make it clear = what words like 'specific' mean. Similarly, this text caused me concern: 'IETF participants, particularly those in an IETF leadership position, = should not engage in [...] behavior that may be considered abuse of a = dominant position.' My understanding[1] is that there is very little case law or regulatory = guidance addressing how standards setting organisations should address = abuse of dominance beyond the relatively well-understood minefield of = patent law. However, it has become a very 'hot' area, thanks to things = like the CMA's (and now Europe's) actions against Google regarding the = Privacy Sandbox, and various complaints and proposals in the US. Such a broad and pre-emptive statement on behalf of the IETF could take = us to undesirable places; I can easily imagine this statement being = weaponised along the lines of something like 'it's IETF policy that you = don't behave in this fashion, some competition regulator has expressed = concerns about this area, therefore you should stop it' -- even though a = court hasn't yet ruled on the matter. AFAIK it's also far from clear that as a standards development venue the = IETF would be held responsible for someone behaving in such a way. All = of the current case law and regulatory guidance is regarding cartel = behaviour, not abuse of dominance, and I don't think we should pre-empt = it. I think the fix here is to either remove the statement, or change = 'should not engage in the following' to 'should be aware of the = antitrust implications of the following'. Cheers, 1. With the proviso that I'm more familiar with European competition law = than US anti-trust. >=20 > -- Christian Huitema=20 >=20 >> On Sep 3, 2021, at 4:36 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 4:29 PM Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >>=20 >> By stating that a draft is describing a proprietary technology and = isn't suitable for IETF discussion unless the proprietor gives change = control to the IETF. That's happened many times. >>=20 >> I think this description is too reductive. It could be "open source" = and "royalty free", but still be in the interests of just a few = entities. The "end run" provisions in other RFCs are also a concern = here. >> =20 >> I don't see anything in the draft=20 >> that forbids this. It just says: the underlying business arrangements = should not be discussed in the IETF. To me, that's nothing new. >>=20 >> If it's "nothing new", I am not sure why it needs to be in the draft. >>=20 >> thanks, >> Rob >>=20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Sep 3 19:20:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40053A1317 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pcX70xWYHdAf for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 551DC3A1318 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id 18so888647pfh.9 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:20:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=B4/9hzPotOp//0Vddat54hCQLZTXgzwjhw+v58EnblU=; b=d3Ynr2olrBjRx8SmGBwauoXh/j3gs6dFtHvMe0uU0rgp5Q6eMwZiVWfiqatxy3xU9T uoUIWlevXouQl7InmJR3JY66ha/vjUboAdDc/iwtIN1H/+XBjpzk7XlxxZ4/MJA5AcQF r7Rtoq0ftufKr5pP9J+Bmi+ZH+LkEB94Ypg5w0pMeIWBdi2a5co3DQoqxz+crxpOiTc7 gYhXhuEcuDkWOjVpfjDDsuUqkV/9yP1ueDctmfbfwwiXn+TAtrEtQT//JyPsX7uG2kQ7 EzGcPnrh1DrNc2rga23yltAI8MFnFHitskuFQRQ5jcdXC1+Hbu6EZeubSL5HecqpPcGj vxRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=B4/9hzPotOp//0Vddat54hCQLZTXgzwjhw+v58EnblU=; b=naT0+oOzFM5uAvs2zmiM9pg+t+cXxUOjE/YVXKzI+FnZX3BR2qR+JakvbC/yf/+D0a fJ4MMitAgbuU61xH5rpOUnmtiDgYeBzQrbwsF7swwSU7YYSGMlT2VHmorDpEO0XfDStg sCpKFZEOUiXmCnxpFdLBMcfcv/acED8hJpUWmiFiaXyjJQEeb0HHAmOrTiOWOp7udS6r OaOeVb5dpiWrqq04oGcKACkMSwkEXSmj+3uEdS/WXAROvrnbv9AlatUu5M2eAs/RBrjP B9ENhHhrkmsnIWRg6m8f9FylwHAtkFAgwg7k1dQEmayfp9Pb+9BWBwYVoEecAMZtUmdl 25Aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533BAP9KRA8ky7tuj3KwwB0lM6rdXkffuo97s7DBnESQP/KwjM+L w3swKQ2dZsjeYnIuCBvP2klxx0E8qQkQSw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNvQR55E/8I39cLu6q7FOJUGpqz7T508dg8PgNteJc/J8vdf7dNqM+YzDCELHNpjRLonq9/A== X-Received: by 2002:a63:3607:: with SMTP id d7mr1699971pga.438.1630722036560; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm572811pfq.111.2021.09.03.19.20.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:20:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: GENDISPATCH List , Stephen Farrell References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <9ca967d9-1548-4d8b-f5a0-54a35c59d279@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 14:20:31 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 02:20:44 -0000 Rob, > If so, maybe the lawyers should write the draft. Brad Biddle is a co-author. Regards Brian On 04-Sep-21 13:04, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 5:09 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >=20 > We wrote this as guidelines, not rules, because there are always so= me > edge cases. >=20 > But that list (which you quote below) is I think the list almost ev= ery > lawyer I have talked to about this gave me to start with. >=20 >=20 > Are you saying lawyers told you such a "guideline" in an IETF BCP would=20 be legally helpful to IETF participants? If so, maybe the lawyers should = write the draft. >=20 > In the past, as you write below, I think the advice has recommended "ta= lking to your own lawyer". > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 If you are > talking about any of those things, you need to be VERY careful.=C2=A0=20 Which > is also why we suggest talking to your own lawyer if you are going = to > venture into those spaces. >=20 >=20 > This kind of thing has been discussed many times before. Here's an old = one: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/GLvb1NlwrixB9Cup= SncPBmVa4ho/ >=20 > What has changed, and why should this be a BCP? Just trying to understa= nd why this change is happening now. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 3 19:43:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62BF3A13E8 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:43:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RYk2ww-mhDw6 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 273AE3A13DA for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id a15so986378iot.2 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:43:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tso4qEwB8IetFtprg/6lXyd3ib/XipsaWacTBXfxnGI=; b=IQ+GmLXRf/XCQkRsYZmsBpSVsP3S20a1P2RbMpe7GJoO95Ew9hWeE2B3dPdXUhcFnT Thv7epJiYJwcJVfriN37QVPRD23V/Mp1J/bOe7Ko5hMe+Gd8du8G2/3nzAZgyRdf/uod VRc88y93bGGdqgXU5T5vHoW7GUOVI4wadsya5cFcDVZevxqFlNM1fmO7dlaisw1qLe65 SVUTzqoUxfDiI6st5+cF/c9CQjpl/oKABVkaH+w9N6Gtkb5cnmAUFxRZQKe83vM9oM8B eWkhwBuDz5Fx8QZnDrg5tLh0jORJIW38jTeMy6yLNq1uO9Exk9sbpIKGMMHi2LyY7Sla HMmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tso4qEwB8IetFtprg/6lXyd3ib/XipsaWacTBXfxnGI=; b=s3qcQGnuTUjh8tAC0rk3DwyrSfO/aOaVzJHGpovtRB4u7Hv41ljNEJpo43uAfOa9tK GmtSqnMfIFbTiiukurwfCz+yYzIaKVVx/dzTvaAxc5YliiGri+N0J/N3B3rqponVCG3o WnYtPDSSyGT8UBAfnASrO7rK3KwYmxbDnuktxHLVCK9AKyl1EsdMgW7f2p0BPZsjbOAc BB1YGbPBwqfWkHgpBiLSLAIBabgsIPt4BJY5wX8cARS5Ky30610FL1R+d1MHZQxkPFJb VZw86SvCbIX95ar3rSkhfNzwVAoQS+sU+9BsKtmsF3AqgWBGIrBxxsrxXRsYkTkykfqv xmyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533onI7utk7KFdPJ1+ljbTaF6i9mICxD7mi9HO4tf0Fv7Pv3lWPa 75cucDT8z0ohAZbpo130D3s1IF9qCo0Bo8HWDPz4QsSyUPXm1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJynZTgxDFFmtlJrdWRb2051DWfsyb7vXsEGNkR3y61wgCxUXFtVxdRwvvE0VehaMjJSpHFYES4jg9cUhGY8yiE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2c45:: with SMTP id s66mr1505911ios.213.1630723412697; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:43:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <9ca967d9-1548-4d8b-f5a0-54a35c59d279@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 19:43:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List , Stephen Farrell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bda99e05cb22619e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 02:43:39 -0000 --000000000000bda99e05cb22619e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes, Brian, To rephrase: are the lawyers saying such a "guideline" in an IETF BCP would be legally helpful to IETF participants? thanks, Rob On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 7:20 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Rob, > > > If so, maybe the lawyers should write the draft. > > Brad Biddle is a co-author. > > Regards > Brian > > On 04-Sep-21 13:04, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 5:09 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > We wrote this as guidelines, not rules, because there are always some > > edge cases. > > > > But that list (which you quote below) is I think the list almost > every > > lawyer I have talked to about this gave me to start with. > > > > > > Are you saying lawyers told you such a "guideline" in an IETF BCP would > be legally helpful to IETF participants? If so, maybe the lawyers should > write the draft. > > > > In the past, as you write below, I think the advice has recommended > "talking to your own lawyer". > > > > > > If you are > > talking about any of those things, you need to be VERY careful. > Which > > is also why we suggest talking to your own lawyer if you are going to > > venture into those spaces. > > > > > > This kind of thing has been discussed many times before. Here's an old > one: > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/GLvb1NlwrixB9CupSncPBmVa4ho/ > < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/GLvb1NlwrixB9CupSncPBmVa4ho/ > > > > > > What has changed, and why should this be a BCP? Just trying to > understand why this change is happening now. > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > --000000000000bda99e05cb22619e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, Brian,

To rephrase: are= the lawyers saying such a "guideline" in an IETF BCP would be le= gally helpful to IETF participants?

thanks,
Rob

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 7:20 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wro= te:
Rob,

> If so, maybe the lawyers should write the draft.

Brad Biddle is a co-author.

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian

On 04-Sep-21 13:04, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 5:09 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com<= /a>>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We wrote this as guidelines, not rules, because the= re are always some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0edge cases.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But that list (which you quote below) is I think th= e list almost every
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lawyer I have talked to about this gave me to start= with.
>
>
> Are you saying lawyers told you such a "guideline" in an IET= F BCP would
be legally helpful to IETF participants? If so, maybe the lawyers should wr= ite the draft.
>
> In the past, as you write below, I think the advice has recommended &q= uot;talking to your own lawyer".
> =C2=A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 If you are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0talking about any of those things, you need to be V= ERY careful.=C2=A0
Which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is also why we suggest talking to your own lawyer i= f you are going to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0venture into those spaces.
>
>
> This kind of thing has been discussed many times before. Here's an= old one:
> https://mail= archive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/GLvb1NlwrixB9CupSncPBmVa4ho/= <https://mail= archive.ietf.org/arch/msg/antitrust-policy/GLvb1NlwrixB9CupSncPBmVa4ho/= >
>
> What has changed, and why should this be a BCP? Just trying to underst= and why this change is happening now.
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
>

--000000000000bda99e05cb22619e-- From nobody Fri Sep 3 20:17:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0553A153D for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:17:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id COEg03G-qYhK for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FC973A153C for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H1fwX1pfNz1nttk; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:17:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630725436; bh=XrR+YPJjJs2MO8YY2jhsUFyu+1/5ziXLetB5h6RSAHI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=bVpVo79trEQovUWRof8FGLSsw1JiflNEt5JF4vCS9AMBv+iy4W4L/1HE0Wewldoe5 y/jRFKsAKZ8WPkQYgoW9SAXBv8PS6h3PUj2j1vpQCczyc8xqRKzsNvlD1BgyzP1IBf 4ZlkxwGIVuJuMtXf4A0SW8kGiZOL84vjiel4H7oc= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H1fwW1Qdgz1ntQT; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:17:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Farrell , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:17:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:17:22 -0000 I am trying to put together a ntoe about how the authors would liek to progress this. That does require a little cooridination, so consider this a general response to your concern about discussion, which will get refined. What I would like to see is 1) Discussion of dispatching in gendispatch 2) determination in gendispatch of where we think the discussion of the substance belongs. That could be gendispatch, ietf@, or some other list. I'll go wherever the community tells me. 3) Dispatch the draft to "AD sponsorship with discussion by the community". Largely because writing a charter and chartering a working group for one document seems rather odd. 4) Have discussion of the content in the agreed venue. 5) With luck, agree on text, get rough consensus, publish as a BCP, and update the Note Well. Please do not read too much into exact wording above. While I am trying to be careful, it is late and I have not talked to my co-authors. I am posting this now because responding the the issue Stephen raises seems important. Yours, Joel On 9/3/2021 8:56 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > On 04/09/2021 00:16, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 04-Sep-21 10:23, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> >>> Hmm. I think "should not discuss" and that list are too high or the >>> wrong barrier. I reckon it'd take some discussion to get that >>> right. I don't object to trying to get it right, but would object >>> to the current text. >>> >>> As an example, it seems to me entirely fine to (carefully:-) >>> discuss the fact that a thing(*) is unencumbered as far as we know >>> and how that affects implementations that might use that thing, >>> especially those taking an open source approach. >> >> Sorry, which of the bullets in section 5 says we should not discuss >> that? > > Perhaps it depends on how one interprets the text. I'd not > want discussion as in the example above to be cutoff by > someone claiming that "no cost" is a price (1st bullet), nor > that one can't consider popular open source library features > (or the lack thereof) because that's a "supply chain" issue > (bullet 4). Again though - I'm not against the draft but > do think the text needs non-trivial discussion before hitting > a last call, which'd affect my answer to a "dispatch" > question: basically I'd not be ok with pushing this ASAP as > an AD sponsored document, which I think was your reaction. > I'd maybe be fine with AD sponsored after some community discussion, but > not with the text as-is. > > Cheers, > S. > >> We have specific non-BCP guidance about that sort of discussion >> in RFC3699. >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> Cheers, S. >>> >>> (*) s/thing/codec/ or s/thing/encryption alg/ both work with >>> differences. >>> >>> On 03/09/2021 23:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> Thankyou for this draft. Assuming the question will be put, I >>>> strongly support dispatching it ASAP as an individual submission >>>> sponsored by the General AD. >>>> >>>> I have one suggestion. The Recommendations very correctly list >>>> 'product pricing' as a forbidden topic. That should probably be >>>> 'product and service pricing'. However, a topic of technical >>>> importance in service provision is *metrics* used for measuring >>>> services. I think the draft could usefully discuss the dividing >>>> line between technical specifications of metrics (OK), mechanisms >>>> for communicating metrics (OK), mechanisms for communicating >>>> pricing of metrics (presumably OK), worked examples with example >>>> monetary values (presumably OK) and actual monetary values (not >>>> OK). >>>> >>>> FYA: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-carpenter-metrics-00 >>>> >>>> Regards Brian Carpenter >>>> >>>> On 31-Aug-21 13:42, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>>> Internet-Drafts directories. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Title           : Antitrust Guidelines for IETF Particiants >>>>> Authors         : Joel M. Halpern Brad Biddle Jay Daley >>>>> Filename        : draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt >>>>> Pages           : 6 Date            : 2021-08-30 >>>>> >>>>> Abstract: This document provides guidance for IETF participants >>>>> on compliance with antitrust laws and how to reduce antitrust >>>>> risks in connection with IETF activities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > There is also an HTML version available at: >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >>>>> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft >>>>> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>> >>>> > From nobody Fri Sep 3 20:38:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E452F3A15FC for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:37:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rdag57oYlb28 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 058E53A15FA for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id a13so1063503iol.5 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9Wbnlbf8WsNwyVFoX4oCtnwnTd/PlWfLS7gdwZl9TYM=; b=FNgWU8RAsngc4UkOSM0R11hax+QvAXh5yvVVRH4356Hb/3r30Vf0GMQwNsoASz07Ee qQWTacnFU230bclNmEv1+4P61diyQHPtrwW49c0dp5q4w8X2vgIxx+Yp91oI+6JcXY8P 5524riT/R1QK4z3vTlSA9MD1A9Opq5uSsejHbzcLTdi/GPtpA8sLxRLuKpbYJisyCO+/ RX7bZGeQGbAkA0ONm0fAf0DaYirSOpzQ8RlBDr0xS04kNDGIkC/HjtKLkQ9ntIS5evDE BqOjqSlhCDnjwVywsYMT4YUKHqsu4G7cEEN1ScjOIDbWXYGIgsarJJz3EBaX5qktCVZE ZRaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9Wbnlbf8WsNwyVFoX4oCtnwnTd/PlWfLS7gdwZl9TYM=; b=PTWAHsG/X4EigSRKd+9IsQqPnJcXq6OeJifHf5P0fEinzHJ2+TA6zf4Z11S+aPF4FT vpZYW908WQ/un7B1IqtMRue+p9z06yLngmMKxj7XEiCdo/37hLFfzdZQovbyKhDPXRaP uXV/n83GEFqMm5SzmlenSnjRlGFzdJVjq7jr11kNz5UJqGgACn1YTKtxub4JITjS1Rn+ kXY9j/xQqIDCozbC36aM7gKRtxu7NrcSz4CJ3wk869K3TWxReuVH8HVlwgeIMNI/q2ap eapkoWdEFxydqFSiS/rbYb5qVQPyo+UarFbq3O0hhR9ZQpRM+/ULYFZHevCpaX8PME8s 3sZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531dT5wblm/wgJP577/j6vSsUhSxXdN00wNBHwBbLLNhU+0uaf7s 8DIa13sSZEEANt31G1utyLNHn0HsoU2b9KcnMJ9HBrM0C18= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzRRsAGYTDd0nvGBfxbySGKzmli3n+pUd2Mr/9u4AbSP8g/AK5pqVB8S2VibQDJ/YznQNkHOeZf7YFXW0ZvCq8= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8b54:: with SMTP id n81mr1632937iod.5.1630726670761; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 20:37:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 20:37:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Stephen Farrell , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000efc03605cb23234f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:37:58 -0000 --000000000000efc03605cb23234f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:17 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > What I would like to see is > 1) Discussion of dispatching in gendispatch > I'd suggest nowhere, and abandoning the draft. These sentences appear together, separated by a paragraph break: "This document does not contain legal advice." "All IETF participants must behave lawfully when engaged in IETF activities, including by following applicable antitrust laws." So, it's not legal advice to require that participants behave lawfully, by following applicable laws? thanks, Rob --000000000000efc03605cb23234f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:17 PM Joel M. Ha= lpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= ; wrote:
What I would like to see is
1) Discussion of dispatching in gendispatch

=
I'd suggest nowhere, and abandoning the draft. These sentences app= ear together, separated by a paragraph break:

&quo= t;This document does not contain legal advice."=C2=A0

"All IETF participants must behave lawfully when engaged in I= ETF activities, including by following applicable antitrust laws."

So, it's not legal advice to require that partici= pants behave lawfully, by following applicable laws?

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000efc03605cb23234f-- From nobody Fri Sep 3 22:46:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894DF3A1A80 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YLR9Q0lncAfO for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7995D3A1A7A for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H1kDC6072z1nvMD; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630734363; bh=uEoKS/EI9W936dMe84rzTXarpEhR8OXsVrdN0jjiqJw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=oom2BCWuv52IV3JO1Tz3rW22cqnlsv/S4lYq1oPNPRgIhZ3tIuJw3/QI/s2Ki05XE f4NjpQKjG7ARJrKOS0fbUZNQ68Ioi5HeKRRZIfpnTDTJ5jCGe/ySWBP0YALt2PSSYZ RAzTIRNDVAH65DBDj7dCjRpqbdHMeGkRyeV/MQ2g= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H1kDB6jp0z1nsWK; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 22:46:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: Stephen Farrell , GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 01:46:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 05:46:15 -0000 No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the law is not "legal advice". Yours, Joel On 9/3/2021 11:37 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:17 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > What I would like to see is > 1) Discussion of dispatching in gendispatch > > > I'd suggest nowhere, and abandoning the draft. These sentences appear > together, separated by a paragraph break: > > "This document does not contain legal advice." > > "All IETF participants must behave lawfully when engaged in IETF > activities, including by following applicable antitrust laws." > > So, it's not legal advice to require that participants behave lawfully, > by following applicable laws? > > thanks, > Rob From nobody Fri Sep 3 23:12:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562F93A1B5B for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jvhdmsgxi4CN for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A4623A1B59 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id h29so1151389ila.2 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:12:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pvADyDf2UFaLFLxVuT7gxSrtofdEFV3siH82ZEFWScg=; b=CJ7oD5N8tQ2ZDP14Rj1xGkBbLrk+GVSREvX582kv59rpRCTxGpAosEV3KAcAs7OqIO PxfPHKPAtFeipNgcwEIGLRbq00Td/V87vaxcjupOaySuPXK/FtWlWdorfqqnkSPnIiOY BkTByUfOk5gLZvsfdeY6vcxMjhcb6661Ut/qQbL2y4bMRjsogcz350L5UrFUFvMhHHvD /Az7z0t6JnUwo2IU/7DC2bUdAaBrCKkWo+8TWDeqilfDdnm5f1dVf9lPzY+EM4kpuf2i zr6RpITw6DnCne+IUapGrER05OEHm1tVLtQ88RdLFFm7SyQCA3jsdTkcWr5M4LARURKA Sl1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pvADyDf2UFaLFLxVuT7gxSrtofdEFV3siH82ZEFWScg=; b=K9oEeYEM2qBQYnp4LPtZbkDQ1xObUp2UgCUq67m6hn3FWGmsau6RvMIb8+7GCrG1O6 9PbCE9iHVHDtyb9AnlGdsFOCRCKUuT0dT942lROgoKJbLM8UUmfQk0pjDK0ZfLi8D+MU YM6UH90v+Qof1DmSid1Wthfdj7C01MlkU+m30QALJp9+MMO7QE6LzLHNsz29+b/co9Ag 914UcjOYCoke+j8r6gGaJSHAtfAZu7rnvDRauJ8GN89Ztag3I9b1W+T/iQXeHzsAezYR prTRrljdSZIwuG1s7ZkmE+obIZjkhcCnAQBNBObT0v5PzcrzNEwRpickU3aeiV2WT+SU ffWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533lS8/CEcF4XedRJtIK8R+j+8727A78gacRJXXcllcyB6UbvuGR BLRmzzRrKT/qglb1j0Go+jnxh+yerPU5UZWVgpLL7vRytbE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx2xNmsLK2Vi66XBLhfOR/P/YenQAYMBs7hU3vLRg378ABcPfwXP0Sy+sWNJTyq4tR6oFNJI6RWOPy8EbBpIms= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:194c:: with SMTP id x12mr1679658ilu.155.1630735961446; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:12:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:12:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Stephen Farrell , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b45e7d05cb254d6a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 06:12:49 -0000 --000000000000b45e7d05cb254d6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the law is not "legal > advice". > Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]: "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set of facts and advising a person to take a specific course of action based on the applicable law." While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger point is that the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could it? It's supposed to apply to the entire world. So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now? thanks, Rob [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_advice --000000000000b45e7d05cb254d6a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. H= alpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com&g= t; wrote:
No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the law= is not "legal
advice".

Well, this could get tedi= ous, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]:

"The= provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set of facts and = advising a person to take a specific course of action based on the applicab= le law."=C2=A0

While we could rathole on thes= e points, I think the larger point is that the draft says nothing important= on legal issues. How could it? It's supposed to apply to the entire wo= rld.

So, what is the problem this draft is trying = to fix? Why now?

thanks,
Rob
<= br>
--000000000000b45e7d05cb254d6a-- From nobody Fri Sep 3 23:42:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767C63A1C56 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DsIZjpDkPXAb for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CEF3A1C55 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H1lSx36sYz1nwgr; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:42:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630737729; bh=vPlxWqtAyxxo/pRN6AdnErkd+TDLy56zpuO8WFblx0I=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EmmfT5PWapXlbm4CaUYr4qjoxfrWx4XqNy9kTbwl4w4wl3AWHXn6fAGZ95oRUSrHj +u4qH7ENmuc/lk1ZZ83u8apuEF8gI/s/2wFP4AxJgx26w7yGN5XxDgqUfFbiatscHT NyiCXhIcFvhOYhpt3Iw5TwqvbvjRDH0f3vv0DvyY= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H1lSw6Vrnz1nt3N; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 23:42:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 02:42:07 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 06:42:15 -0000 What a number of other SDOsd have found, and makes sense to me, is that explaining to folks some of the parameters they need to look for is very helpful for a number of issues. All the ones I have seen do this also make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and that those in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer. This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people understand the dangerous space. It can not, and does not, tell you exactly what you can or can't do. That would be legal advice, and would be rules. Neither of which this document provides. Our current policies do not even mention many of these dimensions. It seems helpful to our participants to improve that. Maybe you are so familiar with antitrust that it doesn't help you. Yours, Joel On 9/4/2021 2:12 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the law is not "legal > advice". > > > Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]: > > "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set of > facts and advising a person to take a specific course of action based on > the applicable law." > > While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger point is that > the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could it? It's > supposed to apply to the entire world. > > So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now? > > thanks, > Rob > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_advice > From nobody Sat Sep 4 03:18:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93B53A00DC for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:18:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AWOcvolRTgL for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A20B83A00D8 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 03:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id bq28so3408725lfb.7 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:18:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p3c1xUtYpwcLs7vz/kHGvjkngXfrLg+/plPJJ1AmBQ8=; b=nwqwcge+PEng4bvJoseaMMRn90pQuZhKzGcELI7rAGZcuvu+FjtKVJrwgkhl2eTrrM ZjGwYHYVEBW+37jdmgnW0npWvmKDckOuZYSJ1Ivj7NNHKLQpFevAmBM7MKr4y08BWX0a ii27Kivg1QxL4KzFlB5LlcNd7X5IhT6E1nHb5VCIC5rRNnzbwQxenwSEnKMBi+0afh9z 08R73OhuGITyJ721VuYjwCpVPbWVsr1SipDyGePIMwA9ZoxBNzlwt7wX+/ER8p8bZJ3X hwf9Y5osBruFciala4wEsA8HhDR4tiLmLdjG8w0va+kpGDdkfu8FXPeEBk2rfio8ieJg /5bQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p3c1xUtYpwcLs7vz/kHGvjkngXfrLg+/plPJJ1AmBQ8=; b=DaWy7ONl/NvZwUrJRZxh5xzuCokQFIc9IFCnAyGebAINqb8XlcK9JRGEVtN+7LEA6c zGx376pmy6HeLgBg/StO3vldNHtMCnFtPJEHa6uYZDj3d939PzbkdVMiKCfcWdYAWjrt FsZiD4b02S0I1/+fsbBaVI6SyhtqpaxIxCGGVjYUCb0GtNdHFL8hzxobnazKF6pvSatn Ih3hnS8cWxNXS8yX6GYhKf6YdbefhIrK+7BVpf+XjU1GYhpF8gBmJmPFHOmKEArtvkxp wkwKSJ+1FBpBkgBjD+znYpWabGoW3VrYcvzmpZ2FNwRfOdr4GPIrujOVZts3so/Wq8Nq g1iA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533lIj7OP2JHmQ6O21n1oLXPvzM282AmhbojILbLxcheYHVPBO7B 2PpkT+tGU1UZ3uZvgBJre1UXA/Z6/AlW6f3fa7b/cfvcpjI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTdUJk/En3yoqzElQjxnBEEYi8J6IvoW63w5yIRIrDgMurUgJNB7zv3nWXSDYMrJV0EJmTrGcyclKMYxJL8aQ= X-Received: by 2002:a19:fc0d:: with SMTP id a13mr2490908lfi.92.1630750718338; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:18:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian Carpenter Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:18:25 +1200 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Rob Sayre , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048aaeb05cb28bdea" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 10:18:47 -0000 --00000000000048aaeb05cb28bdea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Exactly. The draft looks like common sense if you are aware of what antitrust (aka competition) law is. But not everybody is aware. For those who are not, it's useful information. We should have done this years ago. Regards, Brian Carpenter (via tiny screen & keyboard) On Sat, 4 Sep 2021, 18:42 Joel M. Halpern, wrote: > What a number of other SDOsd have found, and makes sense to me, is that > explaining to folks some of the parameters they need to look for is very > helpful for a number of issues. All the ones I have seen do this also > make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and that those > in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer. > > This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people understand the > dangerous space. It can not, and does not, tell you exactly what you > can or can't do. That would be legal advice, and would be rules. > Neither of which this document provides. > > Our current policies do not even mention many of these dimensions. It > seems helpful to our participants to improve that. Maybe you are so > familiar with antitrust that it doesn't help you. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/4/2021 2:12 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the law is not "legal > > advice". > > > > > > Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]: > > > > "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set of > > facts and advising a person to take a specific course of action based on > > the applicable law." > > > > While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger point is that > > the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could it? It's > > supposed to apply to the entire world. > > > > So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now? > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_advice > > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000048aaeb05cb28bdea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Exactly. The draft looks like common sense if you are awa= re of what antitrust (aka competition) law is. But not everybody is aware. = For those who are not, it's useful information. We should have done thi= s years ago.

Regards,
=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen &= ; keyboard)

On Sat, 4 Sep 2021, 18:42 Joel M. Halpern, <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
What a number of other SDOsd have found, and ma= kes sense to me, is that
explaining to folks some of the parameters they need to look for is very helpful for a number of issues. All the ones I have seen do this also
make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and that those in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer.

This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people understand the dangerous space.=C2=A0 It can not, and does not, tell you exactly what you =
can or can't do.=C2=A0 That would be legal advice, and would be rules. =
Neither of which this document provides.

Our current policies do not even mention many of these dimensions.=C2=A0 It=
seems helpful to our participants to improve that.=C2=A0 Maybe you are so <= br> familiar with antitrust that it doesn't help you.

Yours,
Joel

On 9/4/2021 2:12 AM, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.c= om
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the = law is not "legal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0advice".
>
>
> Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]:
>
> "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set= of
> facts and advising a person to take a specific course of action based = on
> the applicable law."
>
> While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger point is th= at
> the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could it? It'= ;s
> supposed to apply to the entire world.
>
> So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now?
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_ad= vice
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_ad= vice>

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ge= ndispatch
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header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1630763973; bh=ql/x+VKVbwdPdwoZWUelD6VyXvr0Wf04IE+Qg3VMr4Y=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=auR87HxXm8QTNNAMnGekGexP77AnUtgvHwlSyU2Ea8ge/rKgA2VWEgPJFuJJCGkWY 3jAOLG16zSntnfo1iVj/dyi8k4u8uRXAzknkoGVOa4Pr4rgKDDjS96RYU25B8iEJge w/cBzz79Drg3AlRCTFjeY64BOqRA/xHlzE3Eeo50= To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:59:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qMSzTmgGnljycEhXFBlEOyx6zL3cucPb6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:59:49 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --qMSzTmgGnljycEhXFBlEOyx6zL3cucPb6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="s4jNwaTYeda1XpW9bGacYIf0FViLypV6A"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: --s4jNwaTYeda1XpW9bGacYIf0FViLypV6A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Rich, Thanks for this draft.=C2=A0 I think it's good at documenting the current= =20 state of affairs, and 2028 desperately needs such an update. Eliot On 03.09.21 21:37, Salz, Rich wrote: > I updated RFC 2028. I would like this to be on the agenda for the next= GENDISPATCH meeting. Lars suggests we can discuss it here until then if = needed. Or you can post issues or pull requests on the GitHub repo and I= 'll review and publish a new draft before next meeting's cutoff. > > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/3/21, 3:33 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: > > > A new version of I-D, draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Rich Salz and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-rsalz-2028bis > Revision: 00 > Title: Entitities Involved in the IETF Standards Process > Document date: 2021-09-03 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 10 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028bi= s-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028b= is > Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028bi= s-00.html > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-= 2028bis > > > Abstract: > This document describes the individuals and organizations invol= ved in > the IETF standards process as described in [IETFPROCS]. It inc= ludes > brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they = place > in the standards process. > > --s4jNwaTYeda1XpW9bGacYIf0FViLypV6A-- --qMSzTmgGnljycEhXFBlEOyx6zL3cucPb6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmEze8AFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNi Mgf/Sy4bzY9Cey0xuaIv7ilHBiH7IcONH4hjs38/SJPT2eRz3kNRrSQHmjfPrRxP2WhPanxozacl nAAXy+2oQb4Ac1dCT5ocRtaCAABEuEepIabtjSVzKR1maeX9LEz11bb5esjlSpzKm3IUWf1NNW8D 1pGyisxx0ebK9TXXRS4Tf24PrF4LObrz6KuFdMEtKgKvV/Le5LS2qDM7dR06pXLbOJfWeFFoQdPv zef+MITUOa+IHGbObv6osaVQG6N/E1tBn6pA/84rumPHg9J9dSxWK8MRZcPnQp0lkigWU9cieVbI PD8Fv+hjZtChJXs+OaVxmRdG9futib5/+XQM43Eeag== =liLO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --qMSzTmgGnljycEhXFBlEOyx6zL3cucPb6-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 08:06:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE313A19CF for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 08:06:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YarQqsHqnxRS for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 08:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CFB3A19CE for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 08:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id j15so2153729ila.1 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 08:06:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kQuXH4MJGh4ekTW21Pzi0iDHpRX2X40y2Y216WmiCog=; b=nit0kGz/QGio7PRfr5pYvhwgGWd2FwzHQgUg+UbgogoH4UOVGixB698aouP5U4uP+/ 9wBxSwA1IAwHdyNROygq4AKlTj1Dk/ziG+mJLaNIYGNfCNdsH745dMbfwCAcQtrlzH4p EnjT95Ot/wniA93ipi7TYGhM9idg+ExYzPizWgxSaNiHj0TuEHftu0yUqCKCOVibszqM qxJg3X31n038GkpW/G0lWUQP2fzXEA1aKz1Li4/zKFh1Qk9aSZhlJ8pVEUcZrITabo1g 8BJHs5i+N8zIT5ddYGhOOx2tAwAO1G4+aAhl34Z0UtQgdgnSYvNh09kGAHILx6je+LgJ lV7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kQuXH4MJGh4ekTW21Pzi0iDHpRX2X40y2Y216WmiCog=; b=V7C08GeYISZ7yRMy7sKzHt/k6l6fh0QqF0XDP6YVutAl33ySfreleLGdCRPk7rYqQn kAkU08yGyem6+JMWxMhoRERMjaq5TiReVBCdy0iY0m1NSHgu2cO/17b4qDTWp9seVFg+ EkY05HEFSzBdkYsHKCMagm2j5nW0Z+jHXE6WEkv9LgCURWq81jIw6vN+eHlkS9MjNGEB VDvXo5goBfd+EWaVNNpv49MBD5BMswOHrTNkK2XWyE07K7B4ZeU7HDwF3SDjCVBRfa2A OIc/rDprsFRYKvKD2f1539VDUMFS3tjb5S1VSDr3CNLVA9AbLE50Ou7/XoswAZmxFYjQ yCFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Z7YfNp9RtZ0s0qscaKS1IJGC395bt1ZtdR9kIbqZeedB+lN1/ R+jkdXE9uljJdMqbR2Mdcfwaw2K4ffHkv7L0rHQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzmNG8ha3hrLXsVZ2H3s7EixXVoxz48DtC1xEhlbEmF7zi5VMeAshYZ6X+ZAHIyfIec2c12hGsobRDaadHlUDQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4406:: with SMTP id r6mr2770413ila.88.1630767964013; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 08:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000034cc9405cb2cc1f5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 15:06:12 -0000 --00000000000034cc9405cb2cc1f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, it's certainly not a new topic. See: https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ "The IETF has periodically considered whether additional documentation related to competition law compliance would be useful. In 2012, for example, an Antitrust Policy BOF addressed this question. One conclusion from these efforts was that some actions taken by other SSOs =E2=80=94 such= as the development of a summary of competition law, or a precise set of bright line =E2=80=98dos and don=E2=80=99ts,=E2=80=99 or a brief recital of certai= n antitrust principles in advance of every meeting--are not a good fit for the IETF. Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated. Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss import= ant nuance. Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99..." thanks, Rob On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 3:18 AM Brian Carpenter wrote: > Exactly. The draft looks like common sense if you are aware of what > antitrust (aka competition) law is. But not everybody is aware. For those > who are not, it's useful information. We should have done this years ago. > > Regards, > Brian Carpenter > (via tiny screen & keyboard) > > On Sat, 4 Sep 2021, 18:42 Joel M. Halpern, wrote: > >> What a number of other SDOsd have found, and makes sense to me, is that >> explaining to folks some of the parameters they need to look for is very >> helpful for a number of issues. All the ones I have seen do this also >> make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and that those >> in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer. >> >> This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people understand the >> dangerous space. It can not, and does not, tell you exactly what you >> can or can't do. That would be legal advice, and would be rules. >> Neither of which this document provides. >> >> Our current policies do not even mention many of these dimensions. It >> seems helpful to our participants to improve that. Maybe you are so >> familiar with antitrust that it doesn't help you. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 9/4/2021 2:12 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: >> > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern > > > wrote: >> > >> > No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the law is not "leg= al >> > advice". >> > >> > >> > Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]: >> > >> > "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set of >> > facts and advising a person to take a specific course of action based >> on >> > the applicable law." >> > >> > While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger point is >> that >> > the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could it? It's >> > supposed to apply to the entire world. >> > >> > So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now? >> > >> > thanks, >> > Rob >> > >> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_advice >> > >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > --00000000000034cc9405cb2cc1f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, it's certainly not a new topic. See:

"The IETF has periodically considered whethe= r additional documentation related to competition law compliance would be u= seful. In 2012, for example, an Antitrust Policy BOF addressed this questio= n. One conclusion from these efforts was that some actions taken by other S= SOs =E2=80=94 such as the development of a summary of competition law, or a= precise set of bright line =E2=80=98dos and don=E2=80=99ts,=E2=80=99 or a = brief recital of certain antitrust principles in advance of every meeting--= are not a good fit for the IETF. Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.= Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. Mechanical recitals = become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99..."

tha= nks,
Rob


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 3:18 AM Brian= Carpenter <brian.e.carpe= nter@gmail.com> wrote:
Exactly. The draft looks like common sense = if you are aware of what antitrust (aka competition) law is. But not everyb= ody is aware. For those who are not, it's useful information. We should= have done this years ago.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian= Carpenter
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On S= at, 4 Sep 2021, 18:42 Joel M. Halpern, <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
What a number of other SDOsd ha= ve found, and makes sense to me, is that
explaining to folks some of the parameters they need to look for is very helpful for a number of issues. All the ones I have seen do this also
make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and that those in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer.

This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people understand the dangerous space.=C2=A0 It can not, and does not, tell you exactly what you =
can or can't do.=C2=A0 That would be legal advice, and would be rules. =
Neither of which this document provides.

Our current policies do not even mention many of these dimensions.=C2=A0 It=
seems helpful to our participants to improve that.=C2=A0 Maybe you are so <= br> familiar with antitrust that it doesn't help you.

Yours,
Joel

On 9/4/2021 2:12 AM, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.c= om
> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, as I understand it, telling people to obey the = law is not "legal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0advice".
>
>
> Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]:
>
> "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a set= of
> facts and advising a person to take a specific course of action based = on
> the applicable law."
>
> While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger point is th= at
> the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could it? It'= ;s
> supposed to apply to the entire world.
>
> So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now?
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_ad= vice
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_ad= vice>

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ge= ndispatch
--00000000000034cc9405cb2cc1f5-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 13:35:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C8C93A1137 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:35:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1qSffOgj4yV for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA6C13A1135 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id fz10so1867712pjb.0 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rYUGFP+C4wpBR4p5JJJOkesqsKVQ35+2IDlHFQBr4Gs=; b=PiHSumBSWfBGodGvWNvyVbHsMXPQ8kQ0ti6DM420HzhS18cgDt0XkHPtKMeBsbY0h2 4x+Uz3H6YWqInury5Jv5kkDWglZJF7ZpQlU81SJeSH6hEN+6cIPNouVljdE/+gYu4TqQ 6f3AksqoBS+Y9laRhh4YZGJacRYmlmJTy9d63wRwoUo/5OcryZZL6MvO6rf1z3NIInJT rDZ52VvXozawT5QDQ59GSocWteRwhn11vYVuM1pKJRg4dHEmULL7m5Ruz9b5D2dROlZO vThdoDsmmmW8qkKuLwxoWm1NmOvvDwy3+G8cX9Yni8l+YuS9w/vPsp0MQNj3hZxLRnvb MqSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rYUGFP+C4wpBR4p5JJJOkesqsKVQ35+2IDlHFQBr4Gs=; b=dI+qrVdHGevNbGkzuxQd3I04c2zx8B/He44xtwy4L710NaqZQcnvbUB1PpYFQlGP4s D9CBj3MP4WmKbwejYsoXHRskMdecjVEB1f2Ru+OBS78s71niNpq6INjblD6WSuECt8Hw EZ/mUCXI7Z6OvdvoTUnNeiQaIuyXLppItWu4C+ys8NUJk+T5Rv78CuZvILqsVq5oaUE2 bsFH16P4x1IKZ/OQhiUcF3fT0w4Yyn2QncalB8e3kSfgFNI9Obp1G8/6ySV9pOb5MSRw DjbW63/W4KtOrwaWyXrzPJOe3VvPlOqRNWkZtZF6UxsjXUvJ6AEBhzDMUr9AB+6ONb0y 8Qig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fNrlkt/BPf/4Pm785SrfbNZqe8VovB3YebP5lJGToEgtSN5Yx sHNaLBK3EgBU+Fesy7rzKTcWakvnFGIilg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwZtYaRhnxYfkRjjWoRYmZ7N0KgfUbiioWNeAqtgsG3K+wuySUUeqknEUuVqc3QXfghG1M7WA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:6808:: with SMTP id p8mr5834208pjj.207.1630787745430; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u13sm3033517pfi.121.2021.09.04.13.35.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:35:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 08:35:42 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 20:35:52 -0000 I don't recall that BOF, but in any case the conclusion stated below does= n't exclude what is now proposes: a BCP available to those who choose to = read it. Or maybe we should just wait until somebody gets sued and blames the IETF=20 for not warning them. Regards Brian On 05-Sep-21 03:05, Rob Sayre wrote: > Well, it's certainly not a new topic. See: > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ >=20 > "The IETF has periodically considered whether additional documentation = related to competition law compliance would be useful. In 2012, for examp= le, an Antitrust Policy BOF addressed this question. One conclusion from = these efforts was that some actions taken by other SSOs =E2=80=94 such as=20 the development of a summary of competition law, or a precise set of brig= ht line =E2=80=98dos and don=E2=80=99ts,=E2=80=99 or a brief recital of c= ertain antitrust principles in advance of every meeting--are not a good f= it for the IETF. Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated. Bright line d= os/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. Mechanical recitals become =E2=80= =98white noise.=E2=80=99..." >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 3:18 AM Brian Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > Exactly. The draft looks like common sense if you are aware of what=20 antitrust (aka competition) law is. But not everybody is aware. For those=20 who are not, it's useful information. We should have done this years ago.= >=20 > Regards, > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard) >=20 > On Sat, 4 Sep 2021, 18:42 Joel M. Halpern, > wrote: >=20 > What a number of other SDOsd have found, and makes sense to me,=20 is that > explaining to folks some of the parameters they need to look fo= r is very > helpful for a number of issues. All the ones I have seen do thi= s also > make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and t= hat those > in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer. >=20 > This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people unders= tand the > dangerous space.=C2=A0 It can not, and does not, tell you exact= ly what you > can or can't do.=C2=A0 That would be legal advice, and would be=20 rules. > Neither of which this document provides. >=20 > Our current policies do not even mention many of these dimensio= ns.=C2=A0 It > seems helpful to our participants to improve that.=C2=A0 Maybe = you are so > familiar with antitrust that it doesn't help you. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 9/4/2021 2:12 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 10:46 PM Joel M. Halpern > > >> wr= ote: > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, as I understand it, telling people to = obey the law is not "legal > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0advice". > > > > > > Well, this could get tedious, but let's go with Wikipedia[1]:= > > > > "The provision of legal advice will often involve analyzing a=20 set of > > facts and advising a person to take a specific course of acti= on based on > > the applicable law." > > > > While we could rathole on these points, I think the larger po= int is that > > the draft says nothing important on legal issues. How could i= t? It's > > supposed to apply to the entire world. > > > > So, what is the problem this draft is trying to fix? Why now?= > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_advice > > > >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Sat Sep 4 15:23:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6443A15F6 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:23:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ih7wYqrl6YRu for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B81A3A15F3 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id d18so575876pll.11 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 15:23:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Rr3YU+yuHIPZhvpw/7Zp+9ee2q13go3Iif0DEqHciA=; b=WRCsNELZprZZEEHORMpXuIUFoRq/DK9fJddzedSxB6mGir06DLZWBhOUeIvLmrLhEp cm9/dBfW2xFvKt2s7cLDC1WJS29P3R+JMo07nGkwzOYF0FqAINhKWbhgLhS0/jRI6oA+ sFpUdG7sg9SF/rXHzQjVrk8SvhD75Pa2ZsLKIWtFuoDOrEOmXVFQVgQ6UBdAAAgSxLEy f84fzsU4Lxm5QgWmjm1/MS282YTIk587XhdBk6mQJpIkUlYnBl9L7/AGZMdas1SC/fPK KERqiCbf/Cn07S4UcxmRQrEQK/AIOvwZ7hI+cyxtEGig/U9Xvs8Mk+THNxbccpaVUXsx FFzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Rr3YU+yuHIPZhvpw/7Zp+9ee2q13go3Iif0DEqHciA=; b=ks1BsbpCHGLOYausvBTOCvnIaALSvWhI3qdl98BlSVQDsTylK3Duf0QQPgkDedaUPA 7LVtnqtwwF00fa4yBcs4rD4Bk2MWdOHMk3AsDs6N6JckFj7gftxqeH2m689RLUzz5XF/ Am2vTMdSYSLyeMYlEKLEvvrWFLYDSiXdkuWhtIIz5gHuj2yRHukl6X2e5SRI5HC/U/n+ 6xusH8UxA8VHntXS2dfQakSeYVq3hx278uY+NOUC4erTLzIR148r6CWscTlt1g59JFq7 UoruUOSA8Q4aDu3WQm+vW4VJg0Oc3Kmxn4lSHgHbQJkUF3iR/vrsSef0/vQUXKtQtuDc 0Uvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532wK3ctLyWeP78fxOxSchE+t45hnTWVo40ie0DXbplFFzroeAj5 SbLkjEsVDGmMhjjABdzf6+3lZUWR1CIqDg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwGei910+FttJUQTLR4lbjhElVcN8He6ZfF9KboA8mtRcax49NT8wwZE1wCju9dfVXN+lnKhQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:744c:: with SMTP id o12mr6160334pjk.139.1630794210993; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 15:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d4sm3190005pfv.21.2021.09.04.15.23.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Sep 2021 15:23:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9e38dfe2-a8ad-e309-a3a4-c8f33641acc9@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:23:26 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:23:39 -0000 I agree that this needs to be done. I will definitely have some comments.= Regards Brian Carpenter On 05-Sep-21 01:59, Eliot Lear wrote: > Rich, >=20 > Thanks for this draft.=C2=A0 I think it's good at documenting the curre= nt=20 > state of affairs, and 2028 desperately needs such an update. >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 03.09.21 21:37, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I updated RFC 2028. I would like this to be on the agenda for the nex= t GENDISPATCH meeting. Lars suggests we can discuss it here until then if=20 needed. Or you can post issues or pull requests on the GitHub repo and I= 'll review and publish a new draft before next meeting's cutoff. >> >> =EF=BB=BFOn 9/3/21, 3:33 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Rich Salz and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-rsalz-2028bis >> Revision: 00 >> Title: Entitities Involved in the IETF Standards Process >> Document date: 2021-09-03 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 10 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028b= is-00.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028= bis >> Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028b= is-00.html >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz= -2028bis >> >> >> Abstract: >> This document describes the individuals and organizations invo= lved in >> the IETF standards process as described in [IETFPROCS]. It in= cludes >> brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they=20 place >> in the standards process. >> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Sat Sep 4 15:35:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48623A1656 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X0LVHfTtkf0A for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 612423A1654 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id a13so3627925iol.5 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 15:35:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q/Bp2FUtQe20qfmPA8qWmigWzzZxbWeYiY6zZ3O5UBM=; b=KWijKYWvMJddZBkFsr0U3eniba0XUT59eKfAYR66hpRgA7atM1PHjqRxX+f3dmUMg8 UrYkbz10omV3TqgrXzU/6YJ3InHc0YuR4TKsX57zOBs5F/hK0d8ZsdyNZP8Y3Py90jjq jDIp1u9Yfi+R58KVcp7dQoqtx/ci7qqLdF61jVB79PEcWlf9Dea7HeL1aCbzMPqgm3S8 UOtDcQq6s+gYby74xiJ2RrB8utCB9Y4C5Zc5oOgOLAuCuGxmu2w+LZ/zJrg8eO/HJ1GP ZDZyF4g/fQ/MPRJj3QUZlGjn3W+VnFOTn/QI0mO7n4Y8zMy0RfLMqxtOr5RUWO+Gz0jT YfxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q/Bp2FUtQe20qfmPA8qWmigWzzZxbWeYiY6zZ3O5UBM=; b=JAChQrHVlidAk6Y80z/DYdstjgnhITtBVcCM8zB5/fpuLYG0joDJUrSgqZQ50TOJ8x N7IDu0nf0ZGsfgngzd+drUKxIwDnQDnJ8skmA97156uy6uLE8C6b6CwHdP1e3SnFh2Am wToGfG1CfELyios+SyjtDne6xWFN6U59g4ZdqkgsbNWm4VZaIJf4vp8HWJtaaH+755vY Hv0zfRaTFGrzK4/Rm/SnieHC3w1d2iirYHezocvn2z4IVZWZzOmwpbggnqZGrxjO2p6x bhVCPXd0l1d3qZvUhLG1NrpIcTUgoIe1zwh8TWVEg08r9Kzmvb0NAXDs+DWgWtliW7+y SDnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533sCS9JshAaWxZ/5kGpkfqgL3FUSBN/A5AMWDEUE1BrZRLY+3oN 2QO4TOg/rifwCIuL/MtXQDc87LIxoSPLm73vFboomTbHSUk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwaYcubJDa8XoByXm3U+nqHZ1cg20zHvFqvORiKEdJpFTzb06rNWR7zc5cdYSJG3S8F7RxUZY02Bgq672H7l4U= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2c45:: with SMTP id s66mr4271110ios.213.1630794919955; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 15:35:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 15:35:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e7d21105cb3307fa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:35:27 -0000 --000000000000e7d21105cb3307fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:35 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't recall that BOF, but in any case the conclusion stated below > doesn't exclude what is now proposes: a BCP available to those who choose > to read it. > I don't remember that BoF either, but its outcome seems reasonable. That said, the post is only about a year old (July 2020). https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ In which case, the conclusion definitely does exclude it. thanks, Rob --000000000000e7d21105cb3307fa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:35 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't recall that BOF, but in a= ny case the conclusion stated below doesn't exclude what is now propose= s: a BCP available to those who choose to read it.
I don't=C2=A0remember that BoF either, but its outcome seem= s reasonable. That said, the=C2=A0post is only about a year old (July 2020)= .
I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page:

In which case, the conclusi= on definitely does exclude it.

thanks,
R= ob

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boundary="H8ByURzEIJhAYXqCnGTEyihepuwJH2e6o"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <00e89c63-732f-dc69-24ac-b37bcb20d653@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: --H8ByURzEIJhAYXqCnGTEyihepuwJH2e6o Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7AA01398F5F414735CA400DB" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7AA01398F5F414735CA400DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/09/2021 20:37, Salz, Rich wrote: > I updated RFC 2028. I would like this to be on the agenda for the > next GENDISPATCH meeting. Lars suggests we can discuss it here until > then if needed. Or you can post issues or pull requests on the > GitHub repo and I'll review and publish a new draft before next > meeting's cutoff. Seems like a reasonable thing to do once the RSE future stuff concludes. Cheers, S. >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/3/21, 3:33 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > wrote: >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt has been > successfully submitted by Rich Salz and posted to the IETF > repository. >=20 > Name: draft-rsalz-2028bis Revision: 00 Title: Entitities Involved > in the IETF Standards Process Document date: 2021-09-03 Group: > Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis Html: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.html Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rsalz-2028bis >=20 >=20 > Abstract: This document describes the individuals and organizations > involved in the IETF standards process as described in [IETFPROCS]. > It includes brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role > they place in the standards process. >=20 >=20 --------------7AA01398F5F414735CA400DB Content-Type: 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filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsF5BAABCAAjFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAmEz9MgFAwAAAAAACgkQWrL68XsXK+p4 KhAAzM6fpazcg7n1jauXbCcBiK3D4LpnTRP8rM+mEPmsTj2Es7zEfbI72eaS9Wug2yd/3sGOLDbi XeMX1tt4eFHEr3u2gNCBnG0IpyMRqSrQGxj36holrhdstGuPtMLoHq2kMxewVKs/s3FC4/GOENda HZweoUtLNuq0eq0np8mvvAdHbFHMwdSOpXTJgE4fhTSkbS7VO6bmHDIDIUADBpoXbxjGxx0oLMOR UfXq5EcvADZmRijW4voK/bOwAPPRTGYDyOW3pqRLiKZODqOZxQdZQcK77p2H2kaQSTPx8jtUdEAz ArW6H7y+2cTrPfYgum0rgYGtke/jKIyzmfusaGL32yHr21iUes4j5SXyB+9/JJoOsKsvVSFCBQlG POOeYtk2MFvFLSy85Ff6TwiRtzvhEQiYtpYHQbsk8WZObEkzIFMzx3cLIE/DfW7q96Q5oxKgPI28 k9VX1gCNCxpXV5OMfS0UPjqkDSsutpbpB48NoHM4G1qU1c1jLkYq6YRy2V9pwOUobAxG3Evj10cA XsloTSDreb4btqG9anlfErDVPkxdCfUaUep1VQjsl+VuosMGoMLcn6O+787kbvY8s98MJmNVRhUS Cnct4Vdw6qchcA4NeQPEG2Y8PkT/2q83jrJ5bDPUZY9z8LSwZ0mbKyZDnpj1BLMG/T0uEFt8TtXQ 9S8= =Keu3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZGL6qGg68otgqikDCT9b4A1hhJcOrJW9n-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 16:16:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com 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([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c124sm3324659pfc.216.2021.09.04.16.16.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:16:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> Message-ID: <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:16:10 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:16:23 -0000 Rich, Thanks for starting this, it was badly neeeded. > Abstract > > This document describes the individuals and organizations involved in the IETF standards process as described in [IETFPROCS]. This reference should be to BCP9, not to RFC2026 which has been significantly amended. In general, citing BCP numbers is much more future-proof. > It includes brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they place in the standards process. Nit: s/place/play/ > 1. The IETF Standards Process > > The process used by the IETF community for the standardization of protocols and procedures is described in [IETFPROCS]. That document defines the stages in the standardization process, the requirements for moving a document between stages, and the types of documents used during this process. Again, BCP9 not RFC2026. (And that only scratches the surface, as illustrated by https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/informal/ .) > It also addresses the intellectual property rights and copyright issues associated with the standards process. No, that's been removed to two separate documents, BCP78 and BCP79. > 3.1. The Document Editor or Author ... > When a Document Editor is a Chair of the same working group, a co-chair should manage the process around the document. If a co-chair is not available, the process must be monitored carefully to ensure that the resulting documents accurately reflect the consensus of the Working Group and that all processes are followed. This can be the collective obligation of all parties involved in the document. I completely agree with this, but it belongs in RFC2418bis, not here. > 3.2. The Working Group Chair ... > The details on the selection and responsibilites of a Working Group chair can be found in [WGPROCS]. That reference needs to be BCP25, as RFC2418 has also been significantly amended. > 3.4. The Request for Comments Editor This section should probably just be TBD until the RFC Editor model work is concluded. > 4.2. Working Groups ... > The full intellectual property policy is defined in [IPRPOLICY]. That reference should be [BCP78], [BCP79]. > 4.3. Internet Engineering Steering Group (IESG) ... > See [NOMCOM] for a detailed description of the Nomcom procedures. Other matters concerning its organization and operation, are described in the IESG charter [IESG] Again, please refer to the BCPs. > 4.4. Internet Architecture Board (IAB) ... > described in the IAB charter [IAB] BCP39 > 4.5. Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) ... > as documented in [IANADOCS]. BCP26 > IANA also is responsible for operating and maintaining several aspects of DNS and coordination of IP address numbering s/numbering/assignment/ I think there's a missing sentence, something like The IETF's relationship with IANA is defined by formal agreements including [RFC2860]. > 4.6. IETF Secretariat For clarity, I suggest moving this to just after the section describing the LLC. > 4.8. The IETF Trust > > The IETF Trust holds the copyrights for IETF documents including RFCs, and copyright licenses for IETF contribtions including Internet Drafts. The principles for the copyright licenses are described in [COPYRIGHT], ...described in [BCP78] and [COPYRIGHT] > 4.9. IETF Administration LLC (IETF LLC)... ... > [LLCLEGAL], Section 6 describes the legal relationship between the LLC and ISOC. True, but 'LLCLEGAL' is a very misleading handle for RFC8712. See next comment: > 4.10. Internet Society (ISOC) > > ISOC plays a small but important role in the standards process. It appoints the NomCom Chair, confirms IAB candidates, and acts as the last resort in appeals process In my view, this sentences belittles the relationship. I would start by reinstating some text from RFC2028, boosted by a reference to RFC8712 which goes into more detail: Internet standardization is an organized activity of the ISOC, with the Board of Trustees being responsible for ratifying the procedures and rules of the Internet standards process [RFC8712]. (We might consider that if this draft is to become an IETF process BCP, it will need to be ratified by the ISOC Board, like all our process BCPs. So we kinda have to include this text.) Regards Brian From nobody Sat Sep 4 16:27:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5F73A184A for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:27:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8HviPlofnyS for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AB843A1847 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id 18so2514991pfh.9 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:27:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gWPcL88B8+zdPi0e2tnddkqGnZgH/Q0muhNbWanWM5w=; b=CoGkIjRJR35H85595R29zlyqL6vvttorzXKGY0Nc8ldm+Mn3Ixg5czX1Cz5piGi4pH YsU/1WYEwEpt1dvd8B0Ym9SxJUa6+P95NyQtqkp6J2vyHKnKwqwINh0w46VQMyQcOD44 LQIsccaD/Veqq+DbmenryELcBOreLFFn/B/7Buzf/bi25qezipwUZZ9B/dYfbnvcCPxn oblgmfnNUxVjGOMIuJTtQvmU63ANHaDmGaCpw464aYolVkrtgFPRIT0n9AT5rqm7CRbk AkGrWQEFTXmTLPCiYG1iqKSSds4I2MwTZiQFy0zncdAjq+06KVR4SH5WS43pLqVAJSd8 2eTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gWPcL88B8+zdPi0e2tnddkqGnZgH/Q0muhNbWanWM5w=; b=jS627CgL8KOP0pJDG6t7VYAnFBJKJoXjbh9VVxw9TvCcFYxxi5UOdqQ2dnRACLk1N/ giJ6Mgx90iUZhsfZGhjvcDznJzvsMOqvjpLaPMk6VXfIxCjWypmcTerbn+VYujTE6Xgb wD3XRdEAvWtYMnSkV9CXSb8mFp3C9Fy2PEVSKRymGgWYTz18PK4dUPr6XZ5rq+Av+EjV mDABQk6hQGuRMegy6thB9nprzreswjjupLb/4u1heke5TRTLfJcyK1i3vLqpr5S4/eGy xRXvDqQ+i/m3ogwMfCQ164/mDS3wSjjS1wzTYzyQQWjRARIzhi7mjXSRMWhYmN4YBemT eg9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Ahhb9JFjI8r4IVd3O2mKJM5NNFrgPbOI7cjEY85o26SLk6X7q L1go0ziXwc2eS/95thmKsw5V2QK5sioAxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwdnRuCJYH3Ll+7yh+KvdDn8N47atIq6PYexRZRO+4dXF1LU5a7fg0yoa6i3Ugs56vHikA3xA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:a513:0:b0:3f1:e19c:a23 with SMTP id v19-20020a62a513000000b003f1e19c0a23mr5222785pfm.43.1630798064189; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h8sm3249667pfr.219.2021.09.04.16.27.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:27:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:27:39 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:27:51 -0000 On 05-Sep-21 10:35, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 1:35 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > I don't recall that BOF, but in any case the conclusion stated belo= w doesn't exclude what is now proposes: a BCP available to those who choo= se to read it. >=20 >=20 > I don't=C2=A0remember that BoF either, but its outcome seems reasonable= =2E That said, the=C2=A0post is only about a year old (July 2020). > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ =C2=A0= >=20 > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to me that the warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF itself, whereas this document is more aimed at warning participants to protect themselves= =2E If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed it's considered= necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole discussion changes tone. By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides cited in the LLC= 's statement. Brian >=20 > In which case, the conclusion definitely does exclude it. From nobody Sat Sep 4 16:47:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833B23A18F8 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2a97zUdSrJT for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B65B3A18F7 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id w7so2637334ilj.12 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Qh41133rd8YLiIp191MyL6BPj04rfqh3glxa7aJPbrs=; b=a5oQDRgGEA7xYRlCQ25+o/+JZmUXcAt8n2+BZmZ3KG5mx54ObVZ38fOqaA9whOPn17 icM4mOUhqgwMwVWGHCowz1m7Bc/4XNN1f+0wNB/jqXf6QV3UM2Rnu2gEZIEFvXKC0D30 DxFpIMfVbnwoSQ6xxm03LjXdQO/hRVq4ibNtouxvgJXA/pAO47N2OFzCqjPGI74M0jBa tpt4mryO4I4FA2lEeXOD43imsLPUXYM8w47S/NBHom/+HoFL65DKpMEQy1Lq25rdpBdo MRUn8JDnQjrJpVmgRUhBwtVpZbUdRq0z7r4BfcdZJX7yHpP1Jx79M3qFtbho8CdifT7b JEzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Qh41133rd8YLiIp191MyL6BPj04rfqh3glxa7aJPbrs=; b=gbvJVgjOC8VlhtEKc4FPBgEjHrH9YEOMVMRjYbIsj1HAdccVEt3dxQvEhOr4qRsL3R 3Sq4qhRzBLEIdGHMN5wXU+l0Z4S7hy/OwrL5wnC826E5rA1QebSC5pX3eJTXn6rFo+uV F5JoreCFOW9fcJ+7K/Zjk0DSG8DN5gF711w36mez/2u1leTkU8wzHSz3Tzgpj3bRXNCH V6LZHZdFJXqJajyzg6jgQMByfkw8EHsl04/7cJeMJACdaRM19M61c4mNt1jk3T3pZzG5 R6FvsRXlpHC4mkZy6qEXFbC17VHM/Rgn0E+iKoSM9e+UZnDGGdGJmoixpS8EIcKesy6A ovgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530KDCRCbtXdy2o3gfRxX+x4k5ouX+J1BDIXZC66qlX/DmGlYFF8 YChO7p+YFZzhlir81Jyg/GWQB64K5I+k1svFISw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxC3WeCsxUoBeG55Bb4Bmu1Cn8BFtWiXZqlCh7U890FP+7n4LTzaM5GswXinVTb7UdhbCO3PHD32KpqPPjnGGU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4406:: with SMTP id r6mr3689045ila.88.1630799251145; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:47:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 16:47:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010888205cb340a92" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:47:38 -0000 --00000000000010888205cb340a92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: > > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ < > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/> > > Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to me that the > warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF itself, whereas > this document is more aimed at warning participants to protect themselves. > Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until somebody gets sued and blames the IETF for not warning them." That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to protect the IETF. Maybe I misunderstood. > If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed it's considered > necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole discussion changes tone. > Agree. > By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides cited in the LLC's > statement. > I did, and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in). For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants for" ...? thanks, Rob --00000000000010888205cb340a92 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page:
> https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ <= https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/>

Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to me that the
warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF itself, whereas
this document is more aimed at warning participants to protect themselves.<= br>

Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we = should just wait until somebody gets sued and blames the IETF for not warni= ng them."

That seemed to indicate you think t= he document is meant to protect the IETF. Maybe I misunderstood.
= =C2=A0
If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed it's cons= idered
necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole discussion changes tone.

Agree.
=C2=A0
By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides cited in the L= LC's
statement.

I did,=C2=A0and it was not t= he first time. Several slides seem to be truncated (maybe just some softwar= e incompatibility creeping in).

For example, Slide= 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants for" ...?

thanks,
Rob

--00000000000010888205cb340a92-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 17:01:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886473A1985 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:01:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ueI3yVvy0mOo for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44AA13A1984 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H2BX96RhPz1nvDF; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:01:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630800089; bh=DyjSjMnP2bypBnMybzGvBRQqoyqk28tlYHKUoujbPZ4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=L4sGu8VKicztQ2/Dmyk3c2wTBOahRqTWkHi9AAn/Agc44vxiYTpLNwhO3502ZWAX9 mve9ZxRCI5iYDrpqgPXFL7wbnhhxl/Q5eKLwevWKo6hiRsNBTc2imSsGMCJMLmVopE 78/iW1us+a25m5TtMPJtexXPjLls4QYHwC1m1Thc= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H2BX92qmpz1nsZ1; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:01:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 20:01:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 00:01:35 -0000 I do not recall that BoF. I presume it occurred. I even presume I was there. However, after nine years it is not unreasonable to take another look. And when I looked, it seemed to me that getting something explicit in the Note Well would be good for IETF participants, the IETF as a whole, and even for the companies which send people to the IETF. Yours, Joel On 9/4/2021 7:47 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter > > wrote: > > > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: > > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ > > > > > Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to me that the > warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF itself, whereas > this document is more aimed at warning participants to protect > themselves. > > > Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until somebody gets > sued and blames the IETF for not warning them." > > That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to protect the > IETF. Maybe I misunderstood. > > If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed it's > considered > necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole discussion changes tone. > > > Agree. > > By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides cited in > the LLC's > statement. > > > I did, and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be > truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in). > > For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants for" ...? > > thanks, > Rob > From nobody Sat Sep 4 17:44:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B368C3A1AEB for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:44:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CEvN0Y_wEMGE for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29DC93A1AEA for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id f6so3920229iox.0 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:44:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JwsGbtBl8ly8j2mZrdRD3C3iIwhndwTVH1I0Kjn6Toc=; b=UrFtA4ZfnKL9TTE3p/HaLCMhMcqsYHETUAAdTJ7qgQzTSQKdYZe7SX7Htc1G++w99K 0yhcbYYZRDgsBAvpA2fu/yqAM1CYSzUtFMEsVbrCQk4hzSGxyO3kBdGCjs5nZSCLGq40 52C5dBIFEcxh4g7x4CZkwQOdfh5CoJCPwfz6kJaxWTKwDUqhXG4wYJpqRk/XLifYhUrl zZ7lD8AP4oX3oaMbrbkC6p/41XDUKsA5LQMBwa5RJkHwek7vCZVlYl1YGxhdztIcl0O6 gClftR0pIWQhv29VNbl8rGIDQZsy9sFHSjhOt2XfjQityL8gie+BPWCZ8bnYFZrMTu7k jAFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JwsGbtBl8ly8j2mZrdRD3C3iIwhndwTVH1I0Kjn6Toc=; b=A8OJp2ubIPf65PLHADdKRFfrUKkOtGFtP8EAjZwlaomrXVY8FA10LUxWeUqhu5hAGE rMcXP78T17ZPWFv8N3yyRFSzur1Jmm0f87KfxMxjxBXFSZJDeLSWNJxf3ryDUbj/0Akf ByA94h2J7kaVqfRo+Q6AHRqX2Fhvp1lgN5YR2kPVbow9a4hF52U/C1rds8o/AYtdrj7Q PAw4ZcnuuFb8v7U/Qi3OE3NPN9DEc5an8oH5/4N4zbjByakUw167DrZN/AsKIkv6H8OC 3iVkkK1BDW2mOnxQIU/YoD7OFiundDNqPtGR4+5rjwzCUD0eG1EGOAiOXgFpe13NHizE Uo4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Otkzx4eusLw75x+Y3aqxDpkAZDbvIt6bVkRFmEAFOwAB/MtOv KvidcKIvWmyFYKarVBZhC7TPj7Yz24VkjUV5sVznxxq3bWs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwoDxOTJaoPXE4CgpdbTl0tTFSouiF4PwPMuWMVrdzdO+hXOI19V+wQcrLcomxjU4ZEz3jOLuH02t6Fjk3KBCg= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:3e84:: with SMTP id l126mr4652062ioa.151.1630802663621; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 17:44:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 17:44:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076ca3305cb34d510" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 00:44:31 -0000 --00000000000076ca3305cb34d510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" OK in the interest of moving forward productively, although I sincerely doubt any IETF participant needs to read up: > 5. Recommended Behavior Instead: 5. Topics That Concern Competition > As the IETF is a standards development environment where > representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, > participants should not discuss the following topics: Instead: As the IETF is a standards development environment where representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, participants should be aware that the following topics may raise antitrust concerns.... [list] > While not all discussions of these topics would necessarily be > antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics > altogether best mitigates antitrust risks. [delete] thanks, Rob On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I do not recall that BoF. I presume it occurred. I even presume I was > there. > > However, after nine years it is not unreasonable to take another look. > And when I looked, it seemed to me that getting something explicit in > the Note Well would be good for IETF participants, the IETF as a whole, > and even for the companies which send people to the IETF. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/4/2021 7:47 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter > > > > wrote: > > > > > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: > > > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ > > > > > > > > > > Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to me that the > > warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF itself, > whereas > > this document is more aimed at warning participants to protect > > themselves. > > > > > > Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until somebody gets > > sued and blames the IETF for not warning them." > > > > That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to protect the > > IETF. Maybe I misunderstood. > > > > If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed it's > > considered > > necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole discussion changes > tone. > > > > > > Agree. > > > > By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides cited in > > the LLC's > > statement. > > > > > > I did, and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be > > truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in). > > > > For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants for" > ...? > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > --00000000000076ca3305cb34d510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK in the interest of moving forward productively, al= though I sincerely doubt any IETF participant needs to read up:
<= br>
> 5.=C2=A0 Recommended Behavior

Instead:= =C2=A0
5. Topics That Concern Competition

> As the IETF is a standards development environment where
> rep= resentatives from competitors are highly likely to be present,
&g= t; participants should not discuss the following topics:

=
Instead:
As the IETF is a standards development enviro= nment where representatives from competitors are highly likely to be presen= t, participants should be aware that the following topics may raise antitru= st concerns.... [list]

> While not all disc= ussions of these topics would necessarily be
> antitrust viola= tions, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics
> altogeth= er best mitigates antitrust risks.

[delete]

thanks,
Rob


=
On Sat, Se= p 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
I do not recall that BoF.=C2=A0 I presume it occurr= ed.=C2=A0 I even presume I was
there.

However, after nine years it is not unreasonable to take another look.
And when I looked, it seemed to me that getting something explicit in
the Note Well would be good for IETF participants, the IETF as a whole, and even for the companies which send people to the IETF.

Yours,
Joel

On 9/4/2021 7:47 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter
> <b= rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wro= te:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined fo= r this page:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-w= ell/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/about/note-wel= l/>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/about/note-wel= l/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/about/note-wel= l/>>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it se= ems to me that the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the = IETF itself, whereas
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this document is more aimed at warning participants= to protect
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0themselves.
>
>
> Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until somebody= gets
> sued and blames the IETF for not warning them."
>
> That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to protect the=
> IETF. Maybe I misunderstood.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP.= If indeed it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole dis= cussion changes tone.
>
>
> Agree.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras'= ;s slides cited in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0statement.
>
>
> I did,=C2=A0and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be <= br> > truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in).
>
> For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants= for" ...?
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
--00000000000076ca3305cb34d510-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 20:27:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85ABA3A08C7 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 20:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=AYLmMQ2p; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=JkpAqdoX Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l1wSxbc_-tsh for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 20:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3A893A08C5 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 20:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 44979 invoked from network); 5 Sep 2021 03:27:47 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=afa2.61343933.k2109; bh=9NsC77NwLB/RR1MsPT6sKKkDngWhzop+bfnWAik6E4s=; b=AYLmMQ2pfaYPF0rbg4WkX0KgMs/7EbR9AmU5rusaXGRaFRybi4QOuhU48WNmANXXuYhTcylct6WnKEtOBYLf3/Jn2Pu2VpSGoym3OmP5wCFrh5KUSHdE8UAM5u37u2hAvS9dMPYXs0dARBbsp5n23VYPIiABoXg71/uBET2Sdz913ESrIQbA7uhDoaUzEZw1+T58u9/e8+j7PyeOyr0+IPgKdzXE6JxQLiEdQTCs1kgA+KRhuqitj4/UE42kZqTfdFa32Y/r6vOumoqLGa2LPfXvswXYq+cjoGX3vS8xsX7K9zN90Bvgd80m8jlvJDr7rqFf7jzXwjvBRQaY294xCQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=afa2.61343933.k2109; bh=9NsC77NwLB/RR1MsPT6sKKkDngWhzop+bfnWAik6E4s=; b=JkpAqdoXoqBujA05MYkjVM7AyLX2UK3Ss7RdyK8Fj5tEtAjzhjred0REz6+JOPapWUa5SJMeyIP9y46+mXxhMWNq/IX1PMeu8J519FnCxp01ib8/VnEjPcXZZ5tBzakd3ALHlmzplPH0FCAVqDFBcwhs6zO1k+ocUHbwd+ROgd6CcQBEcDrKEbPXouYYnRehSaqvLZQ+aNdjt+QyDWZlpVyMeg1WTa9jl5dgp2Fv0t4C5oZR0XRXZkFNdxl1X7csKAir/rvD0bilxKlZp1RE1jstZfFAXANlbuDzYm1spt/5sB6KGlEKvG1JOviR6g7FuSl8tOv8ap/TtuLa1YHVwg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 05 Sep 2021 03:27:46 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2C2F4276B240; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 23:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: 4 Sep 2021 23:27:44 -0400 Message-Id: <20210905032746.2C2F4276B240@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: jmh@joelhalpern.com In-Reply-To: <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:27:57 -0000 It appears that Joel M. Halpern said: >.... All the ones I have seen do this also >make clear that it should not be considered legal advice, and that those >in need of legal details should talk to a lawyer. Legal advice means advice for your specific situation from your lawyer. As the old joke goes, if this were legal advice you would know because it would have a bill attached. >This is itnended as a set of guidelines that help people understand the >dangerous space. It can not, and does not, tell you exactly what you >can or can't do. That would be legal advice, and would be rules. >Neither of which this document provides. Right. There are whole publishers like Nolo Press who provide guides and explanations about the law. A guide on how anti-trust relates to the IETF is long overdue. R's, John From nobody Sat Sep 4 21:50:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8278B3A0CBB for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 21:50:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wqHTkX6kP7gH for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 21:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C07CC3A0CB8 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 21:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id m11so4230686ioo.6 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 21:50:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BT8DC3un8opQA847bHGwUqSuVZLIcxhJz9909CrPWmw=; b=VomPLSEy5afaiIEX2RGFqzpeJDFSvmPxnfkOO90HwzodPej2xwPwT0dkJPog+cQulF INPcoGsgLLQ1hi/nPfPm7dPiUdUosOnJS7sz+ooxG1R40K0Q+Qzqpxy60dsWfPJrndZG XWQTr4mEFbk+pKGDrre2JDCmthZWvt65VJUZYUpYrzsDQNfSxqWQnLzdMiqF+FHEa7YM 26joYpUlLTdN/YdexAteu1CMhtfNmQXHAuTepLskOgdsNn8KwrouI9YZJnXCG0QthLXo vZFhyJqxfpukrm5T26ZLOGO0Z0Wo6DacS8hWdj78rfKNbHoHV8sRgOghq419dw7y9Gmv jG1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BT8DC3un8opQA847bHGwUqSuVZLIcxhJz9909CrPWmw=; b=jGygL1Whierh41+ujI7z266Pyo0WmleU8ANjOoxjEgBA8urO/NYOHy+Ge5OjFtaj1n Sc0NuGq2nXlaF+6WX06XYa7s19iNcjgAubD5ZrnYc3OOYGYsPggRsUsygJTqcAYnFosp vp22bF0T03hlqY0rFNoJU3NiS5FZZiLud/cosExLpFZ5/SHC0U4920ogvXx78CjiC1Uz EgEIaPpfW5zREjB0NJh4hq8KzJ1GAL078gw8dhpMd52U2rxZdE/ntV6Ek7xH7YYzZQJL 4VPh/4fbYrQge30Yo32JAMU/gAyBHQz0ClSJp0CUyZSeDGIxISvHpOxdP2lR6iUjLVjt WhiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iHVJomrA9derDXgNDE3MyvvF03ayAmJeMO7dnMQmRSaXRSU2Z v7QnGFM+F4KCpWDLndobuKuGYwBwH4Bwnc1othTRophe7ek= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyccKQ1nDzhd9FK5Jg8GEEWGRgM0ZblrM4DnoJmj/t34O/y4x1KeSWe3HqzyRmVLLpDQy2AoFHn5Dbu+oQe5ws= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2c45:: with SMTP id s66mr4988775ios.213.1630817436606; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 21:50:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 21:50:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000a62505cb384629" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:50:44 -0000 --00000000000000a62505cb384629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Another suggestion from the list: "As the old joke goes, if this were legal advice you would know because it would have a bill attached." It's a good point. So, by that rationale, it seems safe to strike "This document does not contain legal advice". thanks, Rob On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:44 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > OK in the interest of moving forward productively, although I sincerely > doubt any IETF participant needs to read up: > > > 5. Recommended Behavior > > Instead: > 5. Topics That Concern Competition > > > As the IETF is a standards development environment where > > representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, > > participants should not discuss the following topics: > > Instead: > As the IETF is a standards development environment where representatives > from competitors are highly likely to be present, participants should be > aware that the following topics may raise antitrust concerns.... [list] > > > While not all discussions of these topics would necessarily be > > antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics > > altogether best mitigates antitrust risks. > > [delete] > > thanks, > Rob > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > >> I do not recall that BoF. I presume it occurred. I even presume I was >> there. >> >> However, after nine years it is not unreasonable to take another look. >> And when I looked, it seemed to me that getting something explicit in >> the Note Well would be good for IETF participants, the IETF as a whole, >> and even for the companies which send people to the IETF. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 9/4/2021 7:47 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >> > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter >> > > >> wrote: >> > >> > > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: >> > > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to me that >> the >> > warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF itself, >> whereas >> > this document is more aimed at warning participants to protect >> > themselves. >> > >> > >> > Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until somebody gets >> > sued and blames the IETF for not warning them." >> > >> > That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to protect the >> > IETF. Maybe I misunderstood. >> > >> > If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed it's >> > considered >> > necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole discussion changes >> tone. >> > >> > >> > Agree. >> > >> > By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides cited in >> > the LLC's >> > statement. >> > >> > >> > I did, and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be >> > truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in). >> > >> > For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants for" >> ...? >> > >> > thanks, >> > Rob >> > >> > --00000000000000a62505cb384629 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another suggestion from the list:
"As the old jok= e goes, if this were legal advice you would know because it would have a bi= ll attached."

It's a good point. So, = by that rationale, it seems safe to strike "This document does not con= tain legal advice".

thanks,
Rob


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:44 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
OK in the inte= rest of moving forward productively, although I sincerely doubt any IETF pa= rticipant needs to read up:

> 5.=C2=A0 Recommended B= ehavior

Instead:=C2=A0
5. Topics That Conc= ern Competition

> As the IETF is a standards de= velopment environment where
> representatives from competitors are hi= ghly likely to be present,
> participants should not discuss t= he following topics:

Instead:
As the= IETF is a standards development environment where representatives from com= petitors are highly likely to be present, participants should be aware that= the following topics may raise antitrust concerns.... [list]

> While not all discussions of these topics would necess= arily be
> antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoidi= ng these topics
> altogether best mitigates antitrust risks.

[delete]

thanks,
=
Rob


On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Joel M. Halper= n <jmh@joelhalp= ern.com> wrote:
I do not recall that BoF.=C2=A0 I presume it occurred.=C2=A0 I even = presume I was
there.

However, after nine years it is not unreasonable to take another look.
And when I looked, it seemed to me that getting something explicit in
the Note Well would be good for IETF participants, the IETF as a whole, and even for the companies which send people to the IETF.

Yours,
Joel

On 9/4/2021 7:47 PM, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter
> <b= rian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wro= te:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined fo= r this page:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-w= ell/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/about/note-wel= l/>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/about/note-wel= l/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/about/note-wel= l/>>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it se= ems to me that the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the = IETF itself, whereas
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this document is more aimed at warning participants= to protect
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0themselves.
>
>
> Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until somebody= gets
> sued and blames the IETF for not warning them."
>
> That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to protect the=
> IETF. Maybe I misunderstood.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP.= If indeed it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole dis= cussion changes tone.
>
>
> Agree.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras'= ;s slides cited in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the LLC's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0statement.
>
>
> I did,=C2=A0and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be <= br> > truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in).
>
> For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding technology/participants= for" ...?
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
--00000000000000a62505cb384629-- From nobody Sat Sep 4 22:16:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5A13A105A for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:16:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YKx6qvELd8ZX for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 928713A1058 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H2KWS1nN8z1nwFt; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630818980; bh=X/jvxQS58xwE4aVMpnkSpMpDKPk39rf21ld2lGKEas8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=XUdaPaC0IcYK7xSWBYjUAXaByP91F8wwbgo/fpQqEEdGP7iqr2PCFeJK4Ex20c0Jc diY/8Sb/BXnXU+SsVjtjnj0GHY+rjMC0Os9B780Ad8ZgyiEMY9zcXyDF0OgLGWRd1D /jphu3+ODXFE0GTD3xLuikKZSPPUaS4LpawLmdac= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H2KWR5CmXz1nwBJ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:16:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 01:16:17 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 05:16:26 -0000 As far as I can tell Rob, you are asking to remove words that have value. I do not understand any of your requests for removal. Yours, Joel On 9/5/2021 12:50 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: > Another suggestion from the list: > "As the old joke goes, if this were legal advice you would know because > it would have a bill attached." > > It's a good point. So, by that rationale, it seems safe to strike "This > document does not contain legal advice". > > thanks, > Rob > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:44 PM Rob Sayre > wrote: > > OK in the interest of moving forward productively, although I > sincerely doubt any IETF participant needs to read up: > > > 5.  Recommended Behavior > > Instead: > 5. Topics That Concern Competition > > > As the IETF is a standards development environment where > > representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, > > participants should not discuss the following topics: > > Instead: > As the IETF is a standards development environment where > representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, > participants should be aware that the following topics may raise > antitrust concerns.... [list] > > > While not all discussions of these topics would necessarily be > > antitrust violations, prudence suggests that avoiding these topics > > altogether best mitigates antitrust risks. > > [delete] > > thanks, > Rob > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 5:01 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > I do not recall that BoF.  I presume it occurred.  I even > presume I was > there. > > However, after nine years it is not unreasonable to take another > look. > And when I looked, it seemed to me that getting something > explicit in > the Note Well would be good for IETF participants, the IETF as a > whole, > and even for the companies which send people to the IETF. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/4/2021 7:47 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Brian E Carpenter > > > >> wrote: > > > >      > I thought the proposed BCP seemed destined for this page: > >      > https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ > > >      > > >      > >      >> > > > >     Not necessarily. The lawyers can tell us, but it seems to > me that the > >     warnings on the Note Well are there to protect the IETF > itself, whereas > >     this document is more aimed at warning participants to > protect > >     themselves. > > > > > > Well, you just wrote "Or maybe we should just wait until > somebody gets > > sued and blames the IETF for not warning them." > > > > That seemed to indicate you think the document is meant to > protect the > > IETF. Maybe I misunderstood. > > > >     If so, it doesn't necessarily need to be a BCP. If indeed > it's > >     considered > >     necessary to protect the IETF itself, the whole > discussion changes tone. > > > > > > Agree. > > > >     By the way, I recommend reading Jorge Contreras's slides > cited in > >     the LLC's > >     statement. > > > > > > I did, and it was not the first time. Several slides seem to be > > truncated (maybe just some software incompatibility creeping in). > > > > For example, Slide 4 ends with "Excluding > technology/participants for" ...? > > > > thanks, > > Rob > > > > From nobody Sat Sep 4 22:28:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B303A10F5 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:28:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ppNuYDfVLuJm for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA69E3A10F3 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id r6so3388542ilt.13 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YY7m6MR6CsTprIjDGemzTI8WueXsgpjGtzSY4nHI/ks=; b=fQf2xfxpUE9gVAtlUP8kvtElD1jUWm/UVSKqtdWamoTVxAc7jZ3JUHlzVh8PU44JuC AuVNH9ifzISAvX39X243imhAme4cX9WNaXUQShKHSWhLGgsBO35ttA/RG2m7Khk7g+Hi 8Wf1PidLNkwwLBqKnv6bV6Oum27mQAeWoSTV+ddoQESvz9Ff+z3TGWntQNSXOuH8Rzwp 46uSrzcNbck5VNNiK5GcKlDeHz91h+2omAnlbdNINwrFsgJ0TrOZg6ZVz5UKKjUVHyHy FOl/lNVgLTunXr8eGL4WmITglGJbq7dNDnHEK6TGFHDX1zguB113vm8cgtH3N4Ev97/g ttLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YY7m6MR6CsTprIjDGemzTI8WueXsgpjGtzSY4nHI/ks=; b=VzsYrpEqDoMG9a8jNTTSGDWDv2B2JBmL4FoKzLLZ5ZMaU1oVhypQxYg9IuHEelQZY8 AYTS8qCTr6+L74F43/AZlCUuuTbLw3EK/b8OXR8g0KOsxsQLkIbMTBWOetGnAwLklNm5 VEz9GVbM1DsjnEmeLVxLcHTlvTG2cXTtt7ys1qWBxyDI1EyQ9NZpea14xJ1EvAEPyqOQ fStj5D+oPQCbUPszf8yrJQMg7TQbi6E4rqAQpsCNPnlp+9i5bKLZP7ZGg2l5MDN3Ma0a YhhhgvNmlh3JvFSc43AtfYQG8fkYnAg1+dzmdRZ19k+pOXRfnFTM3TsK5Iw+twuGCxZ9 lN4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530PLU6OQL1GZB83iJ0y31lBAPwub12utOOtgzy84Z71O39muS1l BXRvGNyLc9FrfKKkxqmw6R3MlyxH3aWQ+b3+JzW6ZT3a X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzjXKlvDZGplgWelPvgZXYeEAfkFUy0t3WGK/esCSFJcrXIESukucei63FSrgRhEJM+Aq4rDLOYEUb1d+dAlH8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:194c:: with SMTP id x12mr4214165ilu.155.1630819714337; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:28:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2021 22:28:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4116005cb38cdbd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 05:28:42 -0000 --000000000000c4116005cb38cdbd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:16 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > As far as I can tell Rob, you are asking to remove words that have > value. I do not understand any of your requests for removal. > Joel, It's not really a great argument to claim that text "has value" without describing what that value is. I removed one paragraph in the text I sent, because it was no longer needed given the descriptive, rather than prescriptive, language I used. The other things were rephrased. IETF participants come to the organization with many different antitrust/competitive concerns. As such, the prescriptive text in the current draft could be viewed as anti-competitive in the way it recommends against permitted topics, although I think this is unintentional. If the goal is to make participants aware of these issues, my suggested descriptive text is fine. If the goal is to protect the IETF, I think the current text is actually worse than the status quo. thanks, Rob --000000000000c4116005cb38cdbd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:16 PM Joel M. H= alpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com&g= t; wrote:
As far as I can tell Rob, you are asking to remove wor= ds that have
value.=C2=A0 I do not understand any of your requests for removal.

Joel,

It's not rea= lly a great argument to claim that text "has value" without descr= ibing what that value is.

I removed one paragraph = in the text I sent, because it was no longer needed given the descriptive, = rather than prescriptive, language I used. The other things were rephrased.=

IETF participants come to the organization with m= any different antitrust/competitive concerns. As such, the prescriptive tex= t in the current draft could be viewed as anti-competitive in the way it=C2= =A0recommends against permitted topics, although I think this is unintentio= nal. If the goal is to make participants aware of these issues, my suggeste= d descriptive text is fine. If the goal is to protect the IETF, I think the= current text is actually worse than the status quo.

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000c4116005cb38cdbd-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 10:52:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6633A0C42 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2748eafGNO43 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 821723A0C40 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H2fH76FVwz1nwBJ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:51:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630864307; bh=I0reczU+F2LDPZiLDbeJJv0KkfR5SHB9S/Eyswk1LbA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Cmq2JMQFq0U4O3QFn1PrGdHeABZceMnDJ7xxoOyCWU/GaHy9WZaI1j3FxNRwTqN71 HGRuPbdDWMnmCMwIZn3OZfZGHij2lTsRGVh15AOrGf//QfV5rO8fGJokSiu17s5XUq N4Di2C+GGK5kstByTVsfy+BrSOvSSmccHQhek/SI= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H2fH72jsVz1nw7G; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 10:51:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 13:51:46 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 17:51:57 -0000 The point of the exercise from my perspective is to give people community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues. This helps protect everyone. Watering it down to "things to think about" seems distinctluy counter-productive. Yours, Joel On 9/5/2021 1:28 AM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 10:16 PM Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > As far as I can tell Rob, you are asking to remove words that have > value.  I do not understand any of your requests for removal. > > > Joel, > > It's not really a great argument to claim that text "has value" without > describing what that value is. > > I removed one paragraph in the text I sent, because it was no longer > needed given the descriptive, rather than prescriptive, language I used. > The other things were rephrased. > > IETF participants come to the organization with many different > antitrust/competitive concerns. As such, the prescriptive text in the > current draft could be viewed as anti-competitive in the way > it recommends against permitted topics, although I think this is > unintentional. If the goal is to make participants aware of these > issues, my suggested descriptive text is fine. If the goal is to protect > the IETF, I think the current text is actually worse than the status quo. > > thanks, > Rob > From nobody Sun Sep 5 11:09:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16493A0D63 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D5Oyw8wLCzwj for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 748643A0B68 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id b200so5815871iof.13 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 11:09:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cEFxWJ533IM7oZBvjs6HQ8t4Tx0c53YSCuaXdcUp7Xw=; b=hP5Nh0EmHEGf3h0/9YVTnqX4zUaTMtbJmfb+XHWm9np+pq7pEVFfYEutZfB9ASvwcN 6BRIzTSLMnI6PDO60J6jNLk7oTU3D6luCb9Q1EnkHLpISH1yDBMaWV0TcYKINUuBgt+9 36GeILnLs84hiJ+A3sbAxtO3HcEC0p+ldHAPemzJ9rxJ59weVuH2iI6blgJ1kNKW9lZF Q7KzBd5KKIrNaPTCpkBkLH9ZVBRz8XgdvktVWGy7hItaqDkOdZRtSpPQmG0BwE4uIT2S rexAO6+4+suS1y2/9TKTGxJqoVYmdWW4AkP8p+qfj71Nbx6eVhceNlxaIvJ5hFVSTH9i 8LVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cEFxWJ533IM7oZBvjs6HQ8t4Tx0c53YSCuaXdcUp7Xw=; b=TmH9a0afCEyJxTlNDsyX39vuf0rtUGKbiQuiiSbN4zgk41JqLLn99QoGHr9gr4jLTh ms/menhDjk7g8riBylEM0PzG0hMbE9yxl0+yp+ZR5jPKy44/RO55eZUfz5YhpGi+HC4u TSRCDT68fDKRmie3lzb1/FiiUjEeW3//mhvYpX5zeWV8bIChRHO5LYFPhuuaecIYtleK TOsbd4+DAHGkp1o54ZdyeROeXrVTWddjRvK3asWAcuf9DJnQtQDu4gZmhnNHsp2XJnrz Irzj0JkfyIbmO4gupAz0RyAf5ra4X0QO3J7ub6/hc3K7r8v3jenOgMwIyOIG/vD2yGCr YtQg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532344Cxq62VCxgAZREMeYn46XihvG19POaRoJwep842O499zYcM WHZOhJSMBmp3d5R6BXer0JUCYKatURRCc0f7JDAz1bBzi1I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwqV5Fj92dvab6fnZCwfPjcyBDTYYN9YumW0TsarghiXonGis/pST9Vq1Ul3wUTuv/jMXgHsZQ1fi8lRWjfWNI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8b54:: with SMTP id n81mr6889886iod.5.1630865363407; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 11:09:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 11:09:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a997ee05cb436eb7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:09:36 -0000 --000000000000a997ee05cb436eb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:51 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > The point of the exercise from my perspective is to give people > community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues. This helps > protect everyone. > Well, I guess the counterpoint is that section "5. Recommended Behavior" suffers from all of the issues outlined in that 2020 IETF LLC statement.* The IETF LLC had the same counsel at the time, btw. - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated. - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99 By refraining from guiding behavior around a 6 point bulleted list, my edits make it clear that such summaries do little to "protect" participants or the IETF. I mean, it seems like I'm the only person that has ever read the existing slides thoroughly enough to notice that they are buggy. There are plenty of other sections in the draft that seem fine, and I have no objection to the draft appearing linked from the "Note Well" page in general. thanks, Rob * https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ --000000000000a997ee05cb436eb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:51 AM Joel M. H= alpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com&g= t; wrote:
The point of the exercise from my perspective is to gi= ve people
community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues.=C2=A0 This helps =
protect everyone.

Well, I guess the cou= nterpoint is that section "5. Recommended Behavior" suffers from = all of the issues outlined in that 2020 IETF LLC statement.* The IETF LLC h= ad the same counsel at the time, btw.=C2=A0

- Summ= aries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=C2=A0
- Bright line dos/do= n=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance.
- Mechanical recitals become = =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99=C2=A0

By refrai= ning from guiding behavior around a 6 point bulleted list, my edits make it= clear that such summaries do little=C2=A0to "protect" participan= ts or the IETF. I mean, it seems like I'm the only person that has ever= read the existing slides thoroughly enough to notice that they are buggy.<= /div>

There are plenty of other sections in the draft th= at seem fine, and I have no objection to the draft appearing linked from th= e "Note Well" page in general.

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([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v6sm5297531pfu.0.2021.09.05.14.11.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 14:11:07 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 09:11:03 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:11:15 -0000 On 06-Sep-21 06:34, Andrew Campling wrote: > On Sat, Sep 5, 2021 at 05:50 Rob Sayre > wrote: >=20 >> It's a good point. So, by that rationale, it seems safe to strike "Thi= s document does not contain legal advice" >=20 > I would suggest retaining the text "This document does not contain lega= l advice" to avoid any misunderstandings.=C2=A0 I suggest that "This document does not constitute formal legal advice" wo= uld be clearer. After further thought, I've decided I disagree quite strongly with Rob Sa= yre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet points. This i= s not formal legal advice, but it is a warning to anybody who is unaware = of the issues. I was not at IETF 83, so I checked the minutes of the antitrust BOF at ht= tps://www.ietf.org/proceedings/83/minutes/minutes-83-antitrust.txt. They = are very concise and do not gave a summary of the discussion points. Whil= e it's broadly true that the gap is educational (i.e. I haven't seen any = argument that we need to change the IETF's rules and processes because of=20 anti-trust or competition law), the education gap is *not* filled by some=20 9-year-old slides that as Rob pointed out seem to have got slightly mangl= ed during PDFization. As far as I can understand the minutes, the proposals that garnered most = support in the BOF were "Educational - no consensus needed" + "Current BC= Ps Sufficient, Need Pointers" (slide 11 in https://www.ietf.org/proceedin= gs/83/slides/slides-83-antitrust-0.pdf). The new draft is essentially edu= cation and guidance. The needed pointers are in section 4 "Existing BCPs"= =2E The only way this draft departs from the BOF conclusions is that it p= roposes to seek IETF consensus for this to be a BCP. Since it doesn't act= ually define any new rules, that's debatable, but harmless IMHO. Editorial: The draft doesn't use RFC2119 keywords, so Section 2 "Terminol= ogy" should be deleted. Regards Brian From nobody Sun Sep 5 14:20:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2403A0A66 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lfNzEFLqWncP for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49AE73A0A64 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id b7so6259384iob.4 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 14:20:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/49Tsb/0jvqUapeuhaWvNQjxgp43/LNL1nKwdCYAL2M=; b=ljoc5cx+a4GODxGiMkjhLmOEoDhXGePv4mkvv0JJAIzSjPEkePJ92Rvu8yLboGUy+i 2kELCN5jHGugmScSS6O0jro5Gg6bn6MLIWquhfxY8Cg24O7OOmLYCyCy5/VSQf5/Y/ii 6EAMff3QKnzg7gf8IdTa24W4K2odWt1x2oATz8DkvzL34IBdxCKQEIWSTLq6ljGrSCJU eMwNhsBI71sOjqf31pjS7H2mQ1HX2dtLfgm6qV6O1jCWTaXvElKuqMfv/v2odDbhtJsu nXPgEkraGZami/Wh3q2B20yzdInl8wxhSPP71j8fhqpwZ3BBGAvGSANyMGJgUzCi1ka8 7Ggw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/49Tsb/0jvqUapeuhaWvNQjxgp43/LNL1nKwdCYAL2M=; b=ke5byu9GpZQ972l/Mca9U6kywWRgzIQaKNhi8WAH/iBdA7k4e1ToCEgi7Y0w0mn+hQ NBdiG2WaP9tQcnOR5V40447RcII/r9DSovUbOccN8JwzKNuzpnib7jGU25JPaS0rDk9j 1V0EWdkMmzM+aSqiu2hrufhZRemgcROMeg0heIm8sKmWs4RjemGx26slxe+84S91KmU+ OM6uE3LlP/raCUsg1hS0NWdpZH1Gd9hJ6JFF3FG2p471ToPZYUWSVcJIt49gxsVivcSr J/OYF5+9DiAjADshugacwRk7uT8tqw7tZSknIEIcNCopkCxEV8vqphTu9itANoTMGoNk yxow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532L2dkBpxBDdbCWu3x0PZEUe1/GzhxN3YNg8i6fBv2mEc906Fn4 tRk+bh7iZoQNdfC6r5+6uDUKr19Rx9d+xr1aU/s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3HscCbUa1xOLmFJDNMGhHLZHLycr7gWcQ+ld+Lj/FsNSgzXtyT0KdoOHqsau1iKFDrm8irbERACuSF7HLn08= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9542:: with SMTP id y60mr8015242jah.87.1630876803379; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 14:20:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:19:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089bb5405cb4618b5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:20:11 -0000 --00000000000089bb5405cb4618b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:11 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > After further thought, I've decided I disagree quite strongly with Rob > Sayre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet points. This > is not formal legal advice, but it is a warning to anybody who is unaware > of the issues. > We'll have to respectfully disagree here--the issue for me is that the "warning" is incorrect or misleading in all but the most obvious cases. > Editorial: The draft doesn't use RFC2119 keywords, so Section 2 > "Terminology" should be deleted. > I think this document is following the guidelines in https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8174, because it uses the 2119 words in lowercase in many places. It was new to me too, I had to look it up yesterday. thanks, Rob --00000000000089bb5405cb4618b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:11 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:

After further thought, I've decided I disagree quite strongly with Rob = Sayre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet = points. This is not formal legal advice, but it is a warning to anybody who= is unaware of the issues.

We'll ha= ve to respectfully disagree here--the issue for me is that the "warnin= g" is incorrect or misleading in all but the most obvious cases.
=
=C2=A0
Editorial: The draft doesn't use RFC2119 keywords, so Section 2 "T= erminology" should be deleted.

I t= hink this document is following=C2=A0the guidelines in https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8174, = because it uses the 2119 words in lowercase in many=C2=A0places. It was new= to me too, I had to look it=C2=A0up yesterday.

th= anks,
Rob

--00000000000089bb5405cb4618b5-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 14:23:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757B43A0AA6 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=rFX0r6MA; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=LMAU++Nu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gtols8zT_qC1 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BCDB3A0AA3 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 37577 invoked from network); 5 Sep 2021 21:23:32 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=92c6.61353554.k2109; bh=7oxYppWi2auk27vRr/XArQ86OXN8Du+4fLUe4WnHn/g=; b=rFX0r6MA6+9gonOzPp+P1xostt6OO7LDhQwUEVEGlB8T898gZ5FPyUjsaRAJ0j5hxsuKZjYt1XWsLhcbQMVKpKSwAHbHpc/BTieslG6C1MENOgSdHO7VZw+BX7ssZ2Z/JSfu8JbJ+dVkFihVsHFVlk7lkn/BKKyvvDcuJCCmGtdZCAHg9nWFRKFbnE939ZWWMplMuVl4H5YSynqlE4EA4qFcN63u+LKsywVj4kaw383NzXb98hxqrABWPKuVqNs/HPZUhihgahIvNKVkeE4OHoHQLO2IMLChktm8Y3ZFGhSPi+WkSMdhs4PqhfHSILE57GxD4l2Q/o3t6i74EGPaoQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=92c6.61353554.k2109; bh=7oxYppWi2auk27vRr/XArQ86OXN8Du+4fLUe4WnHn/g=; b=LMAU++NuoJojztyBn6im6B7KNKeLtcGKohq9aEHbEJZfqcp//MEg0W0ZawKz7ePRzM3+WwGll2xLbzlw7qbxcgZ+uCJYtwkvbHmcGeWumk5AuxvNi8s1uJ77eE1ZMLYEX4Nwal7JXX1e3aYkfdgbfeURjtJnqOY9RREy107mLm73i/QAzgLwQfSg0Iuh1oJJ7uMk5h6BvNkQQZtxaoS/SJWwoy/KdK5PJE5KHi/8DaeOrbMRTPih/jrMP0Ue1W4Jo74Lb24OcXzPzlD9TveCCzQ0Ejg8dUIjXcNArhZYS4+Kni2cNqdUGt0fhI7/Khb+93loWeoBRLG4wqY6JAsBsA== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 05 Sep 2021 21:23:32 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B182F276F7D5; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: 5 Sep 2021 17:23:30 -0400 Message-Id: <20210905212331.B182F276F7D5@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: sayrer@gmail.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:23:44 -0000 It appears that Rob Sayre said: >-=-=-=-=-=- > >Another suggestion from the list: >"As the old joke goes, if this were legal advice you would know because it >would have a bill attached." > >It's a good point. So, by that rationale, it seems safe to strike "This >document does not contain legal advice". Don't be silly. The world is full of warnings and disclaimers about things that an ideal reader would already know. The point of this, which I would have thought was obvious, is to remind people who might not be very familiar with legal practice that ths IETF is not their lawyer. Can you describe the concrete harm that would result from leaving it in? I don't think the four seconds that someone might spend reading it counts, since we've already spent more than that arguing about it. R's, John From nobody Sun Sep 5 14:30:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823613A0AEC for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:30:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n_RoKKo0Hs-1 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14F153A0AE7 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id g8so4953108ilc.5 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 14:30:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0vdYHrfxHFKH5RVyGptGelIlW1HufsbTG4rGhGSQlTI=; b=arqmIIMSRPy662/vLq493kUPoHxAW4T9y2DP6h7UXAsm7RcfF7miqn5nAU5gIwz51P T4Lt8KomhXK7Tha50ssWdf+TGxAX/CsMf9gLFsmSyYaWfG5tQLFzigLhrrdrnxZbVA8b IqF5xr/I9MXFn7Ugd+LJaAvLa8GCo10GofsIXDmpJvihr86uZnUE/cPI4rTv/t3TIm8Z dFlnRu77MFAbJo3DkPXtQCTJXlGkRSAtS+TaIrj3NbK4BOXOLGGvY5tmAEALrTUGayy/ V7ts6R0iQNySL+/X5bEOMhZ8Fo/m1S12gBg/rQb17GVWcSHSXSYRIP25eY7igkphsIFo pVWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0vdYHrfxHFKH5RVyGptGelIlW1HufsbTG4rGhGSQlTI=; b=W3c2BUyhq1b7kXpIOtGdX07gh85BjZQCdze+46ScsXoqj/yts8c2+Ztpjji6mSwGHA y4W3kb4+kZxFBBYYiFPAozW0W+k8HHYAyIcd+EwaXf0wpV8fdThXc3tEE1+9wEB0zmqm E5wwMPaluQyxRYjTYBlnJCK70IIvhzZo2VzZVIW35IhfZsuG9Uxa3sa5OxwTWyWyLPgM Zm7rMs76Q1grv+75nBCE3wRPsHT4PI04B16/bZTQxCWLCegJvNE4rjaqnSsfMXc4a8FX 8jedsKxe5UVPm8Usdunw5fpBJSwhEP6E128jXFxJIkupcCZAmus2WCDZ6+O4z6gdaGvV CnKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ohGs4NuLbtoQHr4dd1d30970fhM31T5BSMQEBU7n6q9HKQvWL gCSlyNNx7+STw8PC6JDkQvNulwPpIOBseDGxmMo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnIlJaJiT/G/lp+qign6UqJdftDUXAlphno3VgX8OaMKr/RHfqYdAJ4Xb9ciqhuCBKovcysuAiuM2TJ21Up+M= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d282:: with SMTP id p2mr6186317ilp.259.1630877405326; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 14:30:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 14:29:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ab18705cb463c1b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 21:30:14 -0000 --0000000000006ab18705cb463c1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sorry to pile on, but I just noticed this statement, which (unintentionally) misrepresents what I wrote: "I disagree quite strongly with Rob Sayre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet points" I did not suggest that. I suggested changing the preface of the list to "As the IETF is a standards development environment where representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, participants should be aware that the following topics may raise antitrust concerns:" and then deleting the following paragraph containing "it would be prudent..." because it seems useless. thanks, Rob On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:19 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:11 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> After further thought, I've decided I disagree quite strongly with Rob >> Sayre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet points. This >> is not formal legal advice, but it is a warning to anybody who is unaware >> of the issues. >> > > We'll have to respectfully disagree here--the issue for me is that the > "warning" is incorrect or misleading in all but the most obvious cases. > > >> Editorial: The draft doesn't use RFC2119 keywords, so Section 2 >> "Terminology" should be deleted. >> > > I think this document is following the guidelines in > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8174, because it uses the 2119 words in > lowercase in many places. It was new to me too, I had to look it up > yesterday. > > thanks, > Rob > > --0000000000006ab18705cb463c1b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry to pile on, but I just noticed this statement, which= (unintentionally) misrepresents what I wrote:

"I d= isagree quite strongly with Rob Sayre's suggestion to remove the "= should not discuss" bullet points"

I= did not suggest that. I suggested changing the preface of the list to

"As the IETF is a standards development environme= nt where representatives from competitors are highly likely to be present, = participants should be aware that the following topics may raise antitrust = concerns:"

and then deleting the followin= g paragraph containing "it would be prudent..." because it seems = useless.

thanks,
Rob


On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:19 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
= On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:11 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

After further thought, I've decided I disagree quite strongly with Rob = Sayre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet = points. This is not formal legal advice, but it is a warning to anybody who= is unaware of the issues.

We'll ha= ve to respectfully disagree here--the issue for me is that the "warnin= g" is incorrect or misleading in all but the most obvious cases.
=
=C2=A0
Editorial: The draft doesn't use RFC2119 keywords, so Section 2 "T= erminology" should be deleted.

I t= hink this document is following=C2=A0the guidelines in https://www.rfc-editor.org= /rfc/rfc8174, because it uses the 2119 words in lowercase in many=C2=A0= places. It was new to me too, I had to look it=C2=A0up yesterday.

thanks,
Rob

--0000000000006ab18705cb463c1b-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 15:46:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77043A1115 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DhRCyZmtEJpS for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26FEA3A1113 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id x7so3265047pfa.8 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 15:46:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VG99gwaMXNTmJJhoHSoAnazbgEwpxXXn+tWQpuf4Nn4=; b=pT2kQclMiNjdHfTRznxY0zgcsmrnx6YO4KnTNJXfAf2KXae5Rfq0arUTt5ZPjoJgYy Jbd+KLlb88/BYKzQFNM0RjleXUCA6j+IQiiq11Catqn5p9VCjZFjLJmxFfG8FiZDm5sa rMBK+oBhrJ/OYK/ofploZHaO/qdN0VhM4M48Bs+cvGYHt64lvNaz70fbK9QHB1xA5R82 mUYSKYKQ9B97X/lFXzs4Q9XqGyLXcuMRtNW5PNXlv/Qa+K3YWXbmEtRyxQKADbAS4ZEJ 86VS4gYU2KYKSnjzJs9sMtzzVJJ95vn8HEDr8/0AIxPD3DkMJpjZgccpUvNbQVrAh9uo Fq0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VG99gwaMXNTmJJhoHSoAnazbgEwpxXXn+tWQpuf4Nn4=; b=EGNpYgEx7kV7Xuml/0yuja5WVChBlVb4LX/p6qobE3auvADtCBeHeQ5mZS+fV4Y8ly bBNFAP8lBOXt/xcKIVinQOAfyswRUvOVKkNHmcjq7h103S1OqluTiPgi89f1f064Cd0E AG29mOsumLKPPPVF0BEMci+CpnNnZUaGMGFYZYpN1BTt5mXVcaG/GQtA4XwXK77w+Kmu c9T7JbHLDAdRYtTnAe9rCxop0sEV1JbtG9GbNnkPwBLfvqNXo/RDEQ5k8dJ/W87OplM2 JpBGCXAOM0UIYzrZJZkyWoUa/daUQ/WA4b/trgAGDufBK5IUp3LW19m6Ldo8d2+tfezd fIvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kd7UTemwa8RBSq/hb/6aS4imsA1Nz69J7n8QZFgAOhLkEbivd YjwN3kv0wwgeM9r1zOI1Kbh1E8AeZl1o2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPMJDH0v5togZ23CuSTLLrkPQFo1psQ1gQpUdZtOVDU0C84uDSokV+hrNkDhpVtG3v4/cBvw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:d40a:: with SMTP id a10mr9196489pgh.7.1630881985075; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 15:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm6494023pga.82.2021.09.05.15.46.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 15:46:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0fef8cf6-6b63-89b9-3475-da565d898e11@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 10:46:19 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 22:46:32 -0000 On 06-Sep-21 09:29, Rob Sayre wrote: > Sorry to pile on, but I just noticed this statement, which (unintention= ally) misrepresents what I wrote: >=20 > "I disagree quite strongly with Rob Sayre's suggestion to remove the "s= hould not discuss" bullet points" >=20 > I did not suggest that.=20 Sorry... this thread has got pretty long so it's hard to track details. Brian > I suggested changing the preface of the list to >=20 > "As the IETF is a standards development environment where representativ= es from competitors are highly likely to be present, participants should = be aware that the following topics may raise antitrust concerns:" >=20 > and then deleting the following paragraph containing "it would be prude= nt..." because it seems useless. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:19 PM Rob Sayre > wrote: >=20 > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 2:11 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 >=20 > After further thought, I've decided I disagree quite strongly w= ith Rob Sayre's suggestion to remove the "should not discuss" bullet poin= ts. This is not formal legal advice, but it is a warning to anybody who i= s unaware of the issues. >=20 >=20 > We'll have to respectfully disagree here--the issue for me is that = the "warning" is incorrect or misleading in all but the most obvious case= s. > =C2=A0 >=20 > Editorial: The draft doesn't use RFC2119 keywords, so Section 2=20 "Terminology" should be deleted. >=20 >=20 > I think this document is following=C2=A0the guidelines in https://w= ww.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8174 , b= ecause it uses the 2119 words in lowercase in many=C2=A0places. It was ne= w to me too, I had to look it=C2=A0up yesterday. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 From nobody Sun Sep 5 16:28:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4A13A12C9 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u7-M0h9lLOIR for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6BFE3A12C2 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id g8so5139086ilc.5 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 16:28:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3S8QD37VrdrkLyY79vxCw2SS6aFJCQl41cOJJ3P41Yo=; b=gzGOCOqL6SStDvwWUAKySG3g1eY3todWt1wxgTqKT/z/mLiF1Rqg/iNvGNlBVA9MSB d5+HDv2dd7o7fuFvlRPmhGz2Bbyy5B9wlYu6wiqGqgRNlk4KWuhrMxNQCC1K3pIwB7x7 DOpuA/K0qI4ojlfGRct/2h/FaAE3VQvNZH3vFLXRBwH3YPFn5hRtHKvn7XXUqTNiINe7 0oaZpIpg0tio7N/qb7KbDdIqa6QB71tw23883ezOkWHRDROgOK/73v5CsVEbvGO6vurf lNECe5huSO/ChnRaeFO7JkM4LhdvcAIdj5+MSwg5lGbOfheNHo1JvBOTXIspgRZpmSwJ uZmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3S8QD37VrdrkLyY79vxCw2SS6aFJCQl41cOJJ3P41Yo=; b=MHc/w8EhFJ5criNbnb9QMxoHhtez/IbPc9AZc2EUjbQMvqHoijjlf39oFVR24RryFH oqTuBNJw2DhAzG6apkrzsIcpAdDSdapfqa1FLm5XDxennJDQh/4ceaVoPpyo9rDhPb/m M1VrjF+rv1I9L3LRfsDA/xnu4OnLFVICtHlEK0kEaL8rRyamd0UMOxCKyd42eXugdwG/ vS1J7Ozm8Ru/IE6tQ4qBrGGPgtd9pQ9TeBH/jajal539+6TaXweDcxwAg43b+6neSNDh IsMar901lchO/Ah/7QzCK3BQ87fdEvQPNb1TSjsZZ+yWUujJOUUsli2UHDa6c9+Y4S33 APvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533TfHBdxcpOJzoutC+m1tfuipbLbqGmD0uQzSroWhxdYkqb3PMA 8OykwQOyKEINzmu9/2fMJRrDe84KiKHrC4iXEdw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpgfRzAiGZrWSpsCB40qCo4GDFwHJCLtqZ1DqdweLRgVrDcRnwFvh9Svo3Vj+fbnF3av8ePHXVN4UzjkfKaGI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:12c2:: with SMTP id i2mr5171788ilm.261.1630884509975; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <0fef8cf6-6b63-89b9-3475-da565d898e11@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0fef8cf6-6b63-89b9-3475-da565d898e11@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 16:28:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3099b05cb47e386" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 23:28:38 -0000 --000000000000e3099b05cb47e386 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 3:46 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 06-Sep-21 09:29, Rob Sayre wrote: > > I did not suggest that. > > Sorry... this thread has got pretty long so it's hard to track details. > The thread is only long because very few people have read all of the relevant documents. I would also like to point out that, in my experience, phrases like "This document does not contain legal advice" are only used by incredibly naive lawyers right before they dispense legal advice. That's why I thought it should be removed. The text around the fact that the IETF does not provide legal support seems correct. thanks, Rob --000000000000e3099b05cb47e386 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 3:46 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 06-Sep-21 09:29,= Rob Sayre wrote:
> I did not suggest that.

Sorry... this thread has got pretty long so it's hard to track details.=

The thread is only long because very f= ew people have read all of the relevant documents.

I would also like to point out that, in my=C2=A0experience, phrases like &= quot;This document does not contain legal advice" are only used by inc= redibly naive lawyers right before they dispense legal advice. That's w= hy I thought it should be removed. The text around=C2=A0the fact that the I= ETF does not provide legal support seems correct.

= thanks,
Rob=C2=A0
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[73.223.183.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z7sm1455184oti.65.2021.09.05.17.21.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 17:21:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B5838CD1-6586-40EC-A0A9-C38CA0D1D6E4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:21:01 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , gendispatch@ietf.org To: Brian Carpenter References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:21:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B5838CD1-6586-40EC-A0A9-C38CA0D1D6E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I support going forward with this document. > On Sep 5, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 06-Sep-21 06:34, Andrew Campling wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 5, 2021 at 05:50 Rob Sayre > wrote: >>=20 >>> It's a good point. So, by that rationale, it seems safe to strike = "This document does not contain legal advice" >>=20 >> I would suggest retaining the text "This document does not contain = legal advice" to avoid any misunderstandings. >=20 > I suggest that "This document does not constitute formal legal advice" = would be clearer. I could go either way (that is, with our without =E2=80=9Cformal=E2=80=9D = in the sentence), but I do think there should be a sentence like this in = the document. Bob --Apple-Mail=_B5838CD1-6586-40EC-A0A9-C38CA0D1D6E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmE1Xu0ACgkQrut0EXfn u6gzCQf/V+CyDDimVa7Z42kYClyV+0glScoK0Z0uNXHpPK6XsBSabFYPpJw+k9a5 GxTyxigmPp2gisHvaUTbhjQdjEQtLq1VacmbvgowKaOahVslXUV7/TUe6Dl61LB1 yZYbNjTI9p11/ffch84HdC7k6Sy+9VXil/82G2ZTblk1AM9DOi75fGHQyrJfnhIw ntY9Uyi+eNUdhEpfbrZQoTtO41xztzq1t4aIyBYir0WNoLYrvwNeR1ckUmWAjZHM npy/x8xNBtCbAlqLANOx0d+fvncF0Bb83xfv5+/raCbZhRIthZQLUL/O58uzZpfb roonpXjdBu3n1BtGamc3lGIOzdt7Bg== =0x0u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B5838CD1-6586-40EC-A0A9-C38CA0D1D6E4-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 17:29:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAC43A169B for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:29:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aTzlayqr_fZE for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF9E93A1699 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id j18so6618682ioj.8 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 17:29:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=576EXufjIroABmqdYXsGDLn+TKUYh3xCYPgZ9XqmFYw=; b=gAk2+ePuenvT13XvEJZf+WPOYklrnkODc9eGV9We+TxYEKzxpu06lvIlXdlKnwoTQA qmDG8m39omNn4ZNVkYA3/xRiJV8O98ZS5vKIGY1dnh0va9pF6QwQKaXz/2B1x4SFz7cZ GUXC1sXEz0uxfNqaFw8Eq8SSxVYQBtFpQBgTwy0vForZk1qo3EUgAXuezUoH1R7tdXle 4r/X0CcT/Iczpo0zhKjYvGVsp9aUeASXgt+LXu2sPHzj553E9eS7zEPGa9s8a3WnJbuJ CKybkW6IvF/y5LXMDoRXzA8V9hwKFbYQ/3nTzkNZ+DHMQYghPlHJt8JM4sQxgmh/c9VD FR/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=576EXufjIroABmqdYXsGDLn+TKUYh3xCYPgZ9XqmFYw=; b=uJv5rutvIU5r5TWVIkpwiGRF1wa3Vp1bT1zUZCc4tH5zPf2lY0ynoGzQ0jtL69T7ys ItijXvLjIgDkID6htpFKFRtcsGR+jb1I29H8qtkxIOtV+kgFAYH09NOtnPGgrtRfbJgC JO+dYq3ZTIx5JodobiTFnllr9h6dwSa4maGTsYoZ/MWfjDzCjbm6nWywM4zForQwQsHF ySvV3X396QVF71FxYCFGWUJHVBsH9ZG8rDnvbhPtSBd5TQs2+iQLVXlnYyVCZ5q14cK2 C69Zf5VJQOzsPvqlfer3F5nZQQwKR/rdN0n1QbDyCvlF4XUV8woehQMyQ9KZF8BvYmU4 1nFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531pEXcE+Wk1VP5EOHfcD/M+Pj+XPlDqV+6hDetAL/tKiuhOVxm0 wZ1vjQz0igu4dbk7wL96fEkTXmUrXCoHIEwPeOk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4S6qnHIVBPdyIIwH5gEBP2SWCVZBOR2T/4A9NCfr+Jhf5B4RPa1aS5IisBREjpqgL04vI56KEdHjBHgRTnj4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:95ee:: with SMTP id b101mr3130323jai.96.1630888191283; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 17:29:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 17:29:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: Brian Carpenter , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f555505cb48bf10" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:29:58 -0000 --0000000000004f555505cb48bf10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:21 PM Bob Hinden wrote: > I could go either way (that is, with our without =E2=80=9Cformal=E2=80=9D= in the > sentence), but I do think there should be a sentence like this in the > document. > Bob, what would be the best way to rule out all of the things the phrases in the document do not constitute? thanks, Rob --0000000000004f555505cb48bf10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:21 PM Bob Hinden= <bob.hinden@gmail.com> w= rote:
I could go either way (that is, with our without =E2=80=9Cformal=E2=80=9D i= n the sentence), but I do think there should be a sentence like this in the= document.

Bob, what would be the best = way to rule out all of the things the phrases in the document do not consti= tute?

thanks,
Rob

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Mon, 6 Sep 2021 00:51:09 +0000 Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 00:51:07 +0000 (UTC) From: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.18924 YMailNorrin Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:51:18 -0000 " - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=C2=A0 - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99 " I am very much in agreement with this. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-0= 0 says "=C2=A0 =C2=A0participants should not discuss the following topics: [..] *=C2=A0=C2=A0employee compensation or benefits" IETF engineers can't discuss employee compensation or benefits? Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much anti-trust, = as anti-union. Lloyd Wood=C2=A0 lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk On Monday, 6 September 2021, 04:10:04 GMT+10, Rob Sayre = wrote:=20 On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:51 AM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > The point of the exercise from my perspective is to give people=20 > community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues.=C2=A0 This help= s=20 > protect everyone. Well, I guess the counterpoint is that section "5. Recommended Behavior" su= ffers from all of the issues outlined in that 2020 IETF LLC statement.* The= IETF LLC had the same counsel at the time, btw.=C2=A0 - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=C2=A0 - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99=C2=A0 By refraining from guiding behavior around a 6 point bulleted list, my edit= s make it clear that such summaries do little=C2=A0to "protect" participant= s or the IETF. I mean, it seems like I'm the only person that has ever read= the existing slides thoroughly enough to notice that they are buggy. There are plenty of other sections in the draft that seem fine, and I have = no objection to the draft appearing linked from the "Note Well" page in gen= eral. thanks, Rob *=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ =C2=A0 --=20 Gendispatch mailing list Gendispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Sun Sep 5 18:16:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7DEF3A1897 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VUmlnXSBTZOB for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB1003A1896 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id g9so6710185ioq.11 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:16:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=V9dCJYN3LvwpWoCIMLoc/bjKd0Bvr+ufKOwBnYDwaiA=; b=oh4CTqzpgdsNGmmeUPoRmtbuL/jIScmnyNwVrLZYkQTlJ5nUamYTA81TJjmpjV9hBR qdGxwm1icMdpx2XvJNJ0XBCIX7/vJY5Ai1oWcha/IjFVygRgBdsA6b9V5k0fme4aXfHP NCdZcVaeqx/ds8D0l9hkL6sYpzD2GpQzbL1o2ofcMlCDJWedjEE3YHR5p4QOt+rKnrEC 3tKM6H2Olp0ba+PfMantEKR1bawKITbHuUpqUbnj7EanxxII5hbGFlivqvbam4w7n08C v1MmroMbgUEYWBIlRgGpUpcY5htT3b6Bmoskh/d2fUCb2IRSm233FBliLxVoArAFjiZh RDzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=V9dCJYN3LvwpWoCIMLoc/bjKd0Bvr+ufKOwBnYDwaiA=; b=jiG/XB8sh0P5jt7YTqwt60yN+JgzLJEd/ZfR/vS3JFIhlwFCkGh5joP45wpEEwt5zA p3PwhcK3usIfQyozCjUkvqu850f8fazosN3nf6xzZ090XI86iQh+QBRGNp8fYvuPvvwy IqHYAhy28ht1bO82xnvAKxfAE/7pteJzLHDa4h6484+c17CYYjcY3Odx7ZfzH/eXELbU VtLDqXjNpTTKw6PAOcyI7JO1McflmilnF0u0IMjlt5odrUIjn1wa+1jB5IIJ6ILXLuMp jubGJRM2pRkwV6GWKQe0ya7dFA/6ZasOuzvqTt8LDhiK44L9lHiDON9pIxcE7ti4IgP6 Dybw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ef1jD6Cmxo7mg225BtJIrDK4KklkqOgVtDvZdY9M6mTNsnPP3 7TGhtW/vk4LoXY4VnGvVw+qQqxD25aqnfRrWt9s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzWSvvEzP+vhnNCaaO+GBUQKpB/d1Jtsp+LCIx+0QyvYq6gMOidvJiNmtd0WRvHvoOTNUOPTtrrDo0FN0dsuq4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:2c45:: with SMTP id s66mr7767287ios.213.1630891003540; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:16:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <5da63a02-bbc2-98a9-5a19-745179744192@joelhalpern.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:16:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eef87e05cb4966b4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 01:16:47 -0000 --000000000000eef87e05cb4966b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:51 PM lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk < lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much anti-trust, > as anti-union. > I do not agree with Lloyd on most things, afaik, but this is a good point. My much more anodyne text would avoid this concern, fwiw. thanks, Rob --000000000000eef87e05cb4966b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:51 PM lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much anti-trust, = as anti-union.

I do not agree with Lloy= d on most things, afaik, but this is a good point. My much more anodyne tex= t would avoid this concern, fwiw.

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000eef87e05cb4966b4-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 18:30:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D1F3A18F8 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vFgX7JK60vDT for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B23903A18F3 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H2rSd458Xz1nwCp; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:30:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1630891841; bh=+tIjZ3oWUeMFvNdP8RxRNFC3QCHc8PwKRs6Nl/6WiSc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CVOD+9VTiD63fsgy4vCdrBqs6RjPUscJ6M5mu/HEsppYNeROb5GFcHKrduGxD2s25 F1e7WgtsxO9d6wsEO5Of48oaCcZM0tlNIiKM4NJRcZIVIFbItoBdwqbOc/LgLXbntw c2oi7TTYopXuXMbjP8qHhum2371MmFFVu1hwx5lQ= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H2rSc6kxqz1nt1V; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:30:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre , "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <0796b433-24da-bc2f-d917-4f771a6c2748@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 21:30:39 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 01:30:47 -0000 On the question of whether discussing compensation is an antitrust issue, I defer to the lawyers. Yours, Joel On 9/5/2021 9:16 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 5:51 PM lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > wrote: > > > Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much > anti-trust, as anti-union. > > > I do not agree with Lloyd on most things, afaik, but this is a good > point. My much more anodyne text would avoid this concern, fwiw. > > thanks, > Rob > From nobody Sun Sep 5 18:35:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5703A1945 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:35:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfXewJCTDOft for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38C773A1941 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id a1so5338131ilj.6 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:35:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QgoOOdEJT6rfJut0ZNexJrbXe7MgrDr0yx+IYLTbmVw=; b=i/rukVquOJCkgPgz7t1ZsNv03DO+VnmoUXjgN3Pxa1dmyzxEEeh0M0Q29UmZYhruvc EAiRHHae1kX7ytDaJX6UtM8rO5RhIkNXPkg0E1GJgBOYUetG55GRQQkSY8Ehs/Vbrscv ivHYvY233fQ0frdgTWd06kbYtalaSiCoSbfxe7YQJYx00wVgpSDxJyx0jyw9tk6i5uni nwQhv7StLcJIHp4R1kBxSKCGJTU8Z6X/UtBRM5v7ZTG+5sZr+SBOq0KYdJUzCEzTlA4H 3ixuRHWf2/iNELBUU3xRbn/hccDOYxM+Zu6tJG6MI9R7+7bIB+hZ/7/rIeU/rhlyg3TR JNlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QgoOOdEJT6rfJut0ZNexJrbXe7MgrDr0yx+IYLTbmVw=; b=iOrFyQbp8On010ZISWvgLCzWuoHM8LjRKurM+ksuc59oQCQT6Gsi/SYv2HzoSYIbF4 Y0H/S9JUtwN/NPZxosMOdr2tCQH+pezCeYDpw7rCW5VcouH1JNaxEYVmrgd1gCCiHVqP /2ZTw7RszfoetUI2GqMeeqnwZDXFTzc7PZ+Md1EZSDt6vtpVvbpzb1YaSXYH2qrFYjL+ bHzcH7NKtQOpDdOYOXcSVFqkbzqecfR2yjQM4+jnmID0eyVzMUNaP2Lf5rs5BurxsfxT VajhtO/htB5fd/LwXCzx34wWD6K906f34AbjzBLeexBDQutF8arVi60XFzdG4mJNntsa ACLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533VgHtyU9zaHm6zQFgOhgjGgjVSPi79KEr0TUudwIS7oaZwzhdu 6e8DRVgscbSOI23swFpI3TFe+fCOXslYT21fNinSNpu8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwvP2PqXdFQnXunCXu0/vxDCAj4sLddRsOaKQEzmSv0c9JDpJSL0GAgwZnAwynFS/9p/Lm/0gVWZ5Y0MtRkLtM= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d282:: with SMTP id p2mr6650934ilp.259.1630892103967; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:35:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> <0796b433-24da-bc2f-d917-4f771a6c2748@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <0796b433-24da-bc2f-d917-4f771a6c2748@joelhalpern.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:34:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000086292505cb49a841" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 01:35:10 -0000 --00000000000086292505cb49a841 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:30 PM Joel Halpern Direct < jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > On the question of whether discussing compensation is an antitrust > issue, I defer to the lawyers. > That statement doesn't mean much if the lawyers don't write anything, and it borders on a lie if they don't. Again, I would suggest going with my text... thanks, Rob --00000000000086292505cb49a841 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:30 PM Joel Halpe= rn Direct <jmh.direct@joel= halpern.com> wrote:
On the question of whether discussing= compensation is an antitrust
issue, I defer to the lawyers.

That sta= tement doesn't mean much if the lawyers don't write anything, and i= t borders on a lie if they don't.

Again, I wou= ld suggest going with my text...

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0
--00000000000086292505cb49a841-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 18:49:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB1D3A19E0 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jSjAsdvOkkx8 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F8E93A19DE for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id v16so5342688ilo.10 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:49:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=byvGJuLaPWd/cLG7/anSNvH1sQlFg0wsNzUuefc1X2A=; b=qzOo+LIDQllAupwXETyJ0ZSg2RG8I02IvVB9d6ny4rGQ8GBhvQ1k8rsfpsnCM8adNU 1+eJTYLKxH7G2MGMYT6jSEueAVlGwsH3b9Dl6iTz6+7J4Ba/EUExT6CK3Jowa+LZ3JLG wV2KjIB1SyHMxLamhFI0nMb5bz7EKkDP+OO3ebqDwNqYsenhRq/uK8s7uac+ZBql3R0s L0ZiMJcdbg+YDud1a5PT58TgMFZT7INDEedkNbbmU1cLRlKm1zStXJ+BF7VHdjJtfeeS cCDR0ybCj0pOuCoqRFqv408SuDdg7/kSKWVE0SA8iUebPz28neKtj6jN40tya2k3hPIS plnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=byvGJuLaPWd/cLG7/anSNvH1sQlFg0wsNzUuefc1X2A=; b=Dg48nIQ/PW36fU5At7peA4RWNwTYIAeiNEO/blh7ae5w6YL+IhWSzCvh4eyK2Nq64r l/YTP6TR5JjVu5flF3vJnGsCl2ABFW+ZyvfaS6AcnVavfacblT7SRNbbKgkbMx/Nboia VPWJkIHOB3aLG6RURgZFUgy52x3F6jWwpQPsf2XRe0xyCV0JtQGr/PCAhRyKp+7n0OXv 8X1Q+cxHxjwwukStzm3QQ+7F+/QOIoyyssIMx4U/5CwR21k9790PMuX8SmYFU2yuLCu7 bMz/IKskQJLfJitbDTt5cSrgJugr6qWw/bTbPj0GVXkPu4GPyulHGnkLBKOyIPRHbD8Z MmLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533nkN1xwKVAmC+n7DjbPQ6xWtwYRnuUuBG8oGWr/qtcb0EpCfJT FLWJ2dgG+1pU3eBls86t4Q5+CAPMpE6XZIVa8/Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxxPLu64CgEuq190YhwE5cAu3t9hJ50aaW0Hp+Clawza+7lE5lyrgItVXMZ8RITPGBzoelH5ladVOpeursfwhY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:e03:: with SMTP id a3mr6699680ilk.144.1630892957790; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 18:49:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> <0796b433-24da-bc2f-d917-4f771a6c2748@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 18:49:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a780805cb49dbb7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 01:49:26 -0000 --0000000000006a780805cb49dbb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" So, are "the lawyers" saying that a Cisco employee's draft here is totally ok to be AD-approved (by someone that works for Ericsson). Joel, please do not answer, and instead let coauthors "B. Biddle" or "Jay Daley" respond. This draft seems like a really bad idea! I agree that it's ok to sketch out the landscape for people completely new to the issues, but I do not see why there is reason to cling to the way it's drafted now. thanks, Rob On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:34 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:30 PM Joel Halpern Direct < > jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > >> On the question of whether discussing compensation is an antitrust >> issue, I defer to the lawyers. >> > > That statement doesn't mean much if the lawyers don't write anything, and > it borders on a lie if they don't. > > Again, I would suggest going with my text... > > thanks, > Rob > --0000000000006a780805cb49dbb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, are "the lawyers" saying th= at a Cisco employee's draft here is totally ok to be AD-approved (by so= meone that works for Ericsson).

Joel, = please do not answer, and instead let coauthors "B. Biddle" or &q= uot;Jay Daley" respond.

This draft seems like= a really bad idea! I agree that it's ok to sketch out the landscape fo= r people completely new to the issues, but I do not see why there is reason= to cling to the way it's drafted now.

thanks,=
Rob


On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:34 PM Rob Sayre <= sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:30 PM Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhal= pern.com> wrote:
On the question of whether discussing co= mpensation is an antitrust
issue, I defer to the lawyers.

That sta= tement doesn't mean much if the lawyers don't write anything, and i= t borders on a lie if they don't.

Again, I wou= ld suggest going with my text...

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0
--0000000000006a780805cb49dbb7-- From nobody Sun Sep 5 20:05:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EE943A1C51 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCgXI-MrsP8g for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF0533A1C4F for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id mj9-20020a17090b368900b001965618d019so3391236pjb.4 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 20:04:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zs+sLQiqBrfYsmMx+Dk+9mD3t5LcN33UnHIAYMUwbo0=; b=DUiOqLxfPVCy901/H3XD46Y8M56fxz2Im0/ENo/BYidPjiFK+MuLhQRqMQ4E8XDHJ9 2UnWo03TpE9wet5xpxkRoBI6GDeYdQnEAjcbjQqTAOBvv4BGxV+tMtKc1OPygtYge0Z/ fFz/5r3PWAUou84bzigqNrzlgiGSwffV//qCrWae4Tl8OtplWLDqAnUCfBUVKmsfUnAa jmbJU6KRrnPFk49DkqgQO244V3DisPVxu+HPLUU33OZm3LwRpkTmWWsne562HNi0UhqF Wds8KqYxMJbMkugesNaMonjOpnCvnK+ulRg7aN3WKjVKGy6uc3IXdT0yNh8nOLfyZ52F 0kpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zs+sLQiqBrfYsmMx+Dk+9mD3t5LcN33UnHIAYMUwbo0=; b=kzSxpwZ4zfb7UuJQtTaDm3eOWDmXECV0rWpjyeQaWKBqfQzRX/L8Ux8y9S1sVhW/gD sHJPGHUOZjywEiHybjNoq/6N8VP6OCcy7EHU18eDkL9cr83TQO87nsWTRmJ+dFWch7Ck ny/OSoOQkUhT+E7okDWisn5pxZOwSYDZHSjRerzOWK439QYL8uDalINI2d1NIXxq26OJ t/FyCuYY143LEaYngLJqEe2EUPJkmwxLCeTzD29qxdkzAc2Bb4SzST/M+7cE5+NNP0vQ 5fKbzcHM4p1R9HJRom5TrbDOwYxBszg39dUGXx2I2RFFLKqaYIh1PJb37mZhQhGcdjCN GoMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ZiVNKWKwq0UBVHFGoVEKUTEV4xMxhEaz5mL+Ox/7c9NxPN+Kd VR3FRD7V3VF/4CT/OWbq/P6vqjHLpOLrYw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyY0YMJOAEOsdQ27Lc424jK2eGE1Ou9uDBuSGJ9CY7DVG+2TzKxFkQrjAKAD3gWuVZs3lINBg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:601:: with SMTP id gb1mr11725070pjb.96.1630897496951; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 20:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t186sm5710832pfb.53.2021.09.05.20.04.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 20:04:56 -0700 (PDT) To: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:04:52 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:05:03 -0000 On 06-Sep-21 12:51, lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > " - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=C2=A0 > - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. > - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99 " >=20 > I am very much in agreement with this. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitru= st-00 >=20 > says >=20 > "=C2=A0 =C2=A0participants should not discuss the following topics: > [..] > *=C2=A0=C2=A0employee compensation or benefits" >=20 >=20 > IETF engineers can't discuss employee compensation or benefits? What the draft advises is that such matters should not be part of a stand= ardisation discussion. Not being an anti-trust or competition lawyer, I d= on't know why such a discussion might be a legal exposure, but it would b= e a very silly thing to discuss in a standardisation context, so I can't = see any conceivable objection to the advice. Brian >=20 > Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much anti-tru= st, as anti-union. >=20 > Lloyd Wood=C2=A0 > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Monday, 6 September 2021, 04:10:04 GMT+10, Rob Sayre wrote:=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:51 AM Joel M. Halpern w= rote: >> The point of the exercise from my perspective is to give people=20 >> community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues.=C2=A0 This h= elps=20 >> protect everyone. >=20 > Well, I guess the counterpoint is that section "5. Recommended Behavior= " suffers from all of the issues outlined in that 2020 IETF LLC statement= =2E* The IETF LLC had the same counsel at the time, btw.=C2=A0 >=20 > - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=C2=A0 > - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. > - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99=C2=A0 >=20 > By refraining from guiding behavior around a 6 point bulleted list, my = edits make it clear that such summaries do little=C2=A0to "protect" parti= cipants or the IETF. I mean, it seems like I'm the only person that has e= ver read the existing slides thoroughly enough to notice that they are bu= ggy. >=20 > There are plenty of other sections in the draft that seem fine, and I h= ave no objection to the draft appearing linked from the "Note Well" page = in general. >=20 > thanks, > Rob >=20 > *=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-iss= ues/ > =C2=A0 >=20 From nobody Sun Sep 5 20:08:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBE53A1C73 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=yaxaeWC5; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=YZzV2dDw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l7lJ3BqCqOTt for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6621F3A1C71 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3505C00D6; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 23:08:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=I Zc6XrX5vLJcTE1Te3boQyYz1bwMICTarO1r+CSroL8=; b=yaxaeWC5te+/w9nzN M5XyzF3ZWA0ez89cJuEZGRytXbSeUlGuFEDPj4PGVBWIptsuom8LNRefU+vdK7jI +Ugy2bXTM8q669zSqQpYtmpnv0GXmYtW/AwHq9jUgYIwFCR7XBZhz9lHRzxDDmZY L4WnMTLPQnhiDKM7xnJh1VHB5hUirxLS+uOorC+ZVrls/uc75XK1xggVzEgk1xMe HH1CanVx5OVGfDVgfRCJGXD7LMVzSSBnij9S0a+cef5XP2RBoc3vpP3JzN4/OZdS VzZpQWexFgw7J6dx5DLYe5VhIPMN+Y9zxCgoIKSNyKFB8+hUCmQmnqHUccmGC8UY 6Yk4g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=IZc6XrX5vLJcTE1Te3boQyYz1bwMICTarO1r+CSro L8=; b=YZzV2dDwTJMncqPZbbbaCRCarl4X5Rsyh3wJD1PRWry95BVBMALSnbUtM PREGGsitU0f2lTqEfHaLpVOcD3mXY+yVgLVY5YHEeRbcDIek0/beVY6VZoYaQJmh 8dzXqi30Jshj8DSDYlVM+70KscUxti1Dh67KnLcof0K0Knm87/CKxBhs5Wl19W6c vAwmlC3By+2QBpYXdGnj5HecJ4mkkfeTUEc+i5CMZNOWA/eODf/PZWHTiiaTPGd9 NBQf8HnOOUXTuDYl8lpeNzfaH6tDA1pQdLie0Xgfti6HozuVcDXITiYVALvG6I8y SVvyHI9kxnU5eWpp71iDR5JLQvkDA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudefvddgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne gfrhhlucfvnfffucdlqdegmdenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhh tdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhoth drnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveelgfegueetudeuueefgfevleffudejgeel uddtkeevtdfggefhfeduhfffheetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehjuhhsthhitggvrdhgohhvpd hivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfr rghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 13:08:09 +1000 Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Rob Sayre , GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0E2A15B1-AF29-4F94-9F56-BB50B5DDD082@mnot.net> References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:08:22 -0000 Probably because of things like this: https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/complaint-0 Cheers, > On 6 Sep 2021, at 1:04 pm, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 06-Sep-21 12:51, lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> " - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=20 >> - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. >> - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99 " >>=20 >> I am very much in agreement with this. >>=20 >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-= 00 >>=20 >> says >>=20 >> " participants should not discuss the following topics: >> [..] >> * employee compensation or benefits" >>=20 >>=20 >> IETF engineers can't discuss employee compensation or benefits? >=20 > What the draft advises is that such matters should not be part of a = standardisation discussion. Not being an anti-trust or competition = lawyer, I don't know why such a discussion might be a legal exposure, = but it would be a very silly thing to discuss in a standardisation = context, so I can't see any conceivable objection to the advice. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much = anti-trust, as anti-union. >>=20 >> Lloyd Wood=20 >> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Monday, 6 September 2021, 04:10:04 GMT+10, Rob Sayre = wrote:=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:51 AM Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >>> The point of the exercise from my perspective is to give people=20 >>> community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues. This = helps=20 >>> protect everyone. >>=20 >> Well, I guess the counterpoint is that section "5. Recommended = Behavior" suffers from all of the issues outlined in that 2020 IETF LLC = statement.* The IETF LLC had the same counsel at the time, btw.=20 >>=20 >> - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated.=20 >> - Bright line dos/don=E2=80=99ts miss important nuance. >> - Mechanical recitals become =E2=80=98white noise.=E2=80=99=20 >>=20 >> By refraining from guiding behavior around a 6 point bulleted list, = my edits make it clear that such summaries do little to "protect" = participants or the IETF. I mean, it seems like I'm the only person that = has ever read the existing slides thoroughly enough to notice that they = are buggy. >>=20 >> There are plenty of other sections in the draft that seem fine, and I = have no objection to the draft appearing linked from the "Note Well" = page in general. >>=20 >> thanks, >> Rob >>=20 >> * = https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ >> =20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Sun Sep 5 20:44:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23883A1DCC for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id llFNfCA8HKzg for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85B703A1DC6 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id v16so5513925ilo.10 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 20:44:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yHesQQfOCfZ1aJTTSbO0IwZAkJaNsTXC2Q+UQ3XzEaY=; b=bYHiGsY17F1TxaI31dra7RE7nFKleu6Q4BRkbllaEzYm2on33ECoolzroTDnjvSuoX PJoZqoXJak4146KvY5plFDcph3ptJ+QBYZQqB5XphSjPpFLcCHTSAWyRF1s7yCgDVC41 deetrlrH9015ZV7Xvaly1r3VP0FXDH/cdEAZmBXRGmmD9VXAgfFJ8kQ4g8aobjNEGkLe v4TrHFPkUNIsh1EIU+0u/Txt02tzXp4QpD+d1p2oqXlGIDiIBYY9qNW1+Wc9HHMIUoqf M8IpXgLOSSEJ7pmNwH8pE1rghlsDa1Xf6CAcfZen5mjdsE/p/RK0FhbUMABMbEJoBuBj 712g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yHesQQfOCfZ1aJTTSbO0IwZAkJaNsTXC2Q+UQ3XzEaY=; b=joL2anRyxfxK5z4iABGY4x2j7eQflj5a3Zi1yOK5KHB+PqHG50FkzaRyrsFBamVCDh Rc+KzhZ7UtnLGGJkRqQLGhluJcZutTU/Icjd/AtObqZiCsq8dno7S3w6b9Y5So5YGbU4 FKiiz/Bp4l6OZlDRgs+g/0isFUR3AShScVypyATZOLSwEReNJo19KRxB9b6WEJDIYcuL Nh54930CtG+WY7//2DGACduutP+oxE1u4ecFEOmJS73bShVuO1XdOxI22InnzMvcsM6D gD1EaPTPkAvqI131fbydGr4gFje+C/iVB43L+iFSS+OWMqJkrZehuGKii2F40Mwt3K0H YX1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300kmGDkQwVBnZ/Tvki2jzrppEX3p5YuLJN/7jYr9eIZrqeehma D0J0VEQesv1wSb2nkEYNJ+4ohAcnmMO8rnIQ+zM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyg+1f0tLeiPzAe5kIOXjBgsGkrOJuomCBM8EeGVIlBvvcZUuI9hg4aXBLSrZ+OLqx54jwyaxOUIkLJjc6/W1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:194c:: with SMTP id x12mr6687393ilu.155.1630899862098; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 20:44:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> <0796b433-24da-bc2f-d917-4f771a6c2748@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2021 20:44:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1d94a05cb4b761c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:44:30 -0000 --000000000000f1d94a05cb4b761c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It looks like there are a bunch of other heated responses here. Joel addressed some things that were incorrect concerning affiliation in my statements, off-list, and that I appreciate that he didn't try to use those mistakes to argue in public. I still think that my descriptive text on this topic is a better way to go. thanks, Rob On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:49 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > So, are "the lawyers" saying that a Cisco employee's draft here is totally > ok to be AD-approved (by someone that works for Ericsson). > > Joel, please do not answer, and instead let coauthors "B. Biddle" or "Jay > Daley" respond. > > This draft seems like a really bad idea! I agree that it's ok to sketch > out the landscape for people completely new to the issues, but I do not see > why there is reason to cling to the way it's drafted now. > > thanks, > Rob > > > On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:34 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > >> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:30 PM Joel Halpern Direct < >> jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote: >> >>> On the question of whether discussing compensation is an antitrust >>> issue, I defer to the lawyers. >>> >> >> That statement doesn't mean much if the lawyers don't write anything, and >> it borders on a lie if they don't. >> >> Again, I would suggest going with my text... >> >> thanks, >> Rob >> > --000000000000f1d94a05cb4b761c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It looks like there are a bunch of other heated responses = here.

Joel addressed some things that were incorrect con= cerning affiliation in my statements, off-list, and that I appreciate that = he didn't try to use those mistakes to argue in public.
<= br>
I still think that my descriptive text on this topic is a bet= ter way to go.

thanks,
Rob
On Sun, = Sep 5, 2021 at 6:49 PM Rob Sayre <sa= yrer@gmail.com> wrote:
So, are "the lawyers&q= uot; saying that a Cisco employee's draft here is totally ok to be AD-a= pproved (by someone that works for Ericsson).

Joel, please do not answer, and instead let coauthors "B. Bidd= le" or "Jay Daley" respond.

This dr= aft seems like a really bad idea! I agree that it's ok to sketch out th= e landscape for people completely new to the issues, but I do not see why t= here is reason to cling to the way it's drafted now.

thanks,
Rob


On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:34 PM R= ob Sayre <sayrer@g= mail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 6:30 PM Jo= el Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
On the q= uestion of whether discussing compensation is an antitrust
issue, I defer to the lawyers.

That sta= tement doesn't mean much if the lawyers don't write anything, and i= t borders on a lie if they don't.

Again, I wou= ld suggest going with my text...

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0
--000000000000f1d94a05cb4b761c-- From nobody Mon Sep 6 08:38:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F1F3A134E; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:38:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ccxz1uCOTPNU; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5827C3A134A; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.192.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 186FbuPI004489; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 08:38:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1630942692; x=1631029092; i=@elandsys.com; bh=RWCOICcDzMI/tnwS95FZk5mucRMHVGLV5E0XIkKhiJs=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc; b=pPIw+4yTJIBu1AWE3/P156thgKV/AyPBNqF8S3aN0Bw72IazLKBDyQe87+pTkpwRe 8IfSg9felYOupO6YK2LsIg3FHrsWBQsBtHL3Kbf8VOFzY0h+Fuoq3CRKKXupOvGD6n 1trhG9pSzhKlfeLZOgCpp4bRceGhCs4/1Z9wMklY= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210906081725.080c9518@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 08:27:34 -0700 To: "Joel M. Halpern" , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Cc: Brad Biddle , Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Comments on draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 15:38:42 -0000 Hi Joel, I took a quick look at draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00. Section 5 states that: In addition to avoiding specific topics of discussion, IETF participants, particularly those in an IETF leadership position, should not engage in the following [behavior that may be considered abuse of a dominant position]. The "abuse of a dominant position" is not correct if it is read from a competition law perspective as the IESG and IAB members are not in a dominant position. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Mon Sep 6 12:13:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0733A1B04 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:13:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=owuUxUkE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=t/jNTlrp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bv3pExL1bchy for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A54133A1AFA for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 12:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 85871 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2021 19:12:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=14f6d.61366838.k2109; bh=Gqy6TxGNewO6TMvD6GcVZh8rn9rhBWh5XnKBPKxMlUY=; b=owuUxUkENd6Gpy/HNPQ01U0X/fxt+DeeoYURcfSiW9pQUwJVi94KSh1T+apYROxLqzpNkc4Mc1MyK5kkdN8BBmfKfNYj2eyzHI1LneoLIhuBtWApvFyv1PejzMFK5nXtADCr7gMVSXH41ZvnhLpxPxsYY7voD0o5F/DRwAFjD1iYlLdnP5olkgEz15zvN8aSeDxDaMMpO4gBpNqCMJJHcR8WLI3YO/yCAiJowKwuqgucSHAkqhIoOSg2+zoE1jVivbJt9FXyPFnqL3hX8YmczHo6XCQHbCG6xGRERR0MxOnwAP3z20vH+jUf66OG71aRxcL5+T9cNzhxdo/tYVxdLQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=14f6d.61366838.k2109; bh=Gqy6TxGNewO6TMvD6GcVZh8rn9rhBWh5XnKBPKxMlUY=; b=t/jNTlrpR/Xx5GuMIzfePzTSE3XQUI8KD3nWBVSfCIj+QiTHQnwE2hRq5XfsHNm4Ci0N17ukis7KgynoPgegd+J0MQqO5RY2IGMtZlJ4pmSqRWDAdiD7+KtWcWbsaG+IXlM/qZShAQ/UStffvqPsVx8QTm306HLEnxgbUIweOabm+WlkO8P+Rot42gPDlo5Cl7RWNvBea/vUfIG0U/sa2xLjfqmzUdBKkAOJIWJ8QdjKYev2xWVWc597ZYGX2L3N+vyFo3woetDQbRZx0/ix8qAhsKbt2FBs3wm9LA+r912Ihm7clxe/zO85Q/20oAUA7N+c/iX/SQAFDFBbJn2vRQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 06 Sep 2021 19:12:56 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 760B42778391; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: 6 Sep 2021 15:12:54 -0400 Message-Id: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 19:13:14 -0000 It appears that Brian E Carpenter said: >> IETF engineers can't discuss employee compensation or benefits? > >What the draft advises is that such matters should not be part of a standardisation discussion. Not being an anti-trust or competition lawyer, I don't >know why such a discussion might be a legal exposure, but it would be a very silly thing to discuss in a standardisation context, so I can't see any >conceivable objection to the advice. The scenario is that a manager at company A says "we pay our engineers about $120K", manager at company B says "huh, I guess we won't need to give ours a raise." In general it is illegal for competitors to coordinate the way they do business. Stanrdards development has a carveout because there there is a widely understood benefit to the public for competing products to interoperate. That isn't limited to software; it's why the lightbulbs you buy at the hardware store fit into the sockets in the desk lamps you bought at the office supply store. R's, John PS: This still isn't legal advice. From nobody Mon Sep 6 15:05:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5053A148B for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:05:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vhnKnjUiNSfm for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8DAE3A1490 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D001148FFB00 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39SgCc_2Vn2G for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C8E348FE867 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 15:05:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:05:33 +1200 References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> To: GENDISPATCH List In-Reply-To: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> Message-Id: <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 22:05:50 -0000 If I could summarise the issues I=E2=80=99ve heard here: 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of = certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark = makes a similar suggestion in order to avoid any recommendations being = weaponised to prevent legitimate discussions. 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his = compensation and benefits details 3. Mark points out (I think) that preventing all discussion of = compensation and benefits could be akin to imposing a "no poaching of = competitors staff" policy for the IETF 4. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better = explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant = market position. 5. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s any = doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not = contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal = legal advice". 6. Mark is concerned that dealing with the possible abuse of a dominant = position is unnecessary given there have been no cases brought to = suggest that regulators are concerned with this 7. Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss the FLOSS = business model in relation to specific supply chains. Does that capture it? Jay > On 7/09/2021, at 7:12 AM, John Levine wrote: >=20 > It appears that Brian E Carpenter said: >>> IETF engineers can't discuss employee compensation or benefits? >>=20 >> What the draft advises is that such matters should not be part of a = standardisation discussion. Not being an anti-trust or competition = lawyer, I don't >> know why such a discussion might be a legal exposure, but it would be = a very silly thing to discuss in a standardisation context, so I can't = see any >> conceivable objection to the advice. >=20 > The scenario is that a manager at company A says "we pay our engineers > about $120K", manager at company B says "huh, I guess we won't need to > give ours a raise." >=20 > In general it is illegal for competitors to coordinate the way they do > business. Stanrdards development has a carveout because there there > is a widely understood benefit to the public for competing products > to interoperate. That isn't limited to software; it's why the = lightbulbs > you buy at the hardware store fit into the sockets in the desk lamps = you > bought at the office supply store. >=20 > R's, > John >=20 > PS: This still isn't legal advice. >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Sep 6 18:26:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B379C3A07D0; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=iRNAhLFJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=draEB/WD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V8UW8AT7EsCH; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16E943A07CC; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68345C014D; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 06 Sep 2021 21:26:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=x DTGBekZZFlbgax97FtJ2Ln6YbzA1pevn8FG880Pj84=; b=iRNAhLFJd/0EX6Jxw 2vdR5n2Fy94FlUgL77Yzg6AzfvKb+hTvnKSjMA8dTv8AYqnBgNV8Kt0iuZb1zvKm WDP82BF0hAQ596q3SxNPTHfIXA+Pz843YabdnN5faf8Nsc4X4iBnP1KftBSpxbTL oMaixE/7f1MvGjteB65vo+B2Wr+qynbRtoHKmB3mzeRqnqSSf3NlsRU7DgMQWJKg U7AMzcdyk26Gif4H8C71GjvgZMsN/nB8CI7mUYITZLbrEHhdF+crHIuxNPQHuy8o kyOjpY74Q2ghdPW0kVUJbHOkkRGHR76gu++F4z0hCdvdGmV9S5V7yyPxqAbOR28V P8NXA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=xDTGBekZZFlbgax97FtJ2Ln6YbzA1pevn8FG880Pj 84=; b=draEB/WDrKIBnScpzPZUD2CnDBSUKU2w1Z3LNunT4AjJmWY1Nkh89EdJH NDakpmtdtJve9iGw5jfYQ2fyEfJC5M3ZzkJCjqxludtN2btxsp0tV9lquKC6i4cb 0QQVyJd0fXpx6rHi8ReiZHYsnnKPf2JXQfrhDPrQQRd0ZTCp4wGYgWsdOaltyHCl L4sv3O8j2X6BzOXJf3xrCLrUJKZar1yeWhqMWejPa/c40lS1YQ1El2DzjJ2CrWS1 19EA5RKUrBci/aUsz3NMx8DiLfng2XZErN6x45J29jE1DTdT1EWDLr9AzwYIy+cN vPrgb+TBG//afWZ0B0nWyVNjDOfEw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudefgedggeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeetfeelffejfffhheehfeefgedulefgueejudekieegvdeghefffedvheffieel keenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:26:12 +1000 Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 01:26:30 -0000 Hi Jay, > On 7 Sep 2021, at 8:05 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > If I could summarise the issues I=E2=80=99ve heard here: >=20 > 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of = certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark = makes a similar suggestion in order to avoid any recommendations being = weaponised to prevent legitimate discussions. Correct, but this could be dealt with in a number of ways. Note that = this is entirely an issue of how IETF people might misread (and perhaps = misuse) the document's contents (the former already being evidenced in = discussion).=20 Going a bit further - there are some sorts of things that we need to = prohibit in the IETF, because they're very clearly anti-competitive = (mostly cartel behaviour) and if the IETF countenances them, the = organisation will be legally answerable. Others are behaviours that = participants need to be aware might have competition law consequences = upon them (or more often, their employer), but aren't things we should = outright prohibit, because a court needs to make the judgment, not us. = The document would be improved if it distinguished between them. > 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his = compensation and benefits details >=20 > 3. Mark points out (I think) that preventing all discussion of = compensation and benefits could be akin to imposing a "no poaching of = competitors staff" policy for the IETF No; I was merely responding to some folks who were expressing skepticism = that discussion of compensation and benefits could be an antitrust = issue, by pointing out a case where it had been. > 4. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better = explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant = market position. >=20 > 5. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s = any doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not = contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal = legal advice". >=20 > 6. Mark is concerned that dealing with the possible abuse of a = dominant position is unnecessary given there have been no cases brought = to suggest that regulators are concerned with this Not exactly; I very much anticipate it becoming an issue, and regulators = are actively discussing it and processing complaints about it. However, = regulators aren't courts. What I'm concerned about is our pre-empting = the law by prohibiting 'behavior that may be considered abuse of a = dominant position' when the definition of that phrase is still very much = disputed in the legal world (both in the US and EU, among other places). For internal purposes, the same resolution as #1 applies; don't make it = a prohibition, make it advisory, so we don't have a situation where = someone accuses someone in IETF leadership of abusing dominance and the = IETF having no practical way to weigh that claim, or (more importantly) = authority to do so. =20 There is also an external dimension to the considerations here. = Standards bodies might have a role to play in curtailing abuse of = dominance, and personally I think that the Internet would be a better = place if we did. More relevantly, if we don't competition authorities = will start to do it for standards-controlled technologies in addition to = proprietary ones. However, if we're going to do that, it needs to be through an = established policy that can be applied by the IETF based upon shared = technical principles, not a one-line 'don't do it' admonishment. > 7. Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss the FLOSS = business model in relation to specific supply chains. 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boundary="pyzbSFIo26YedoHoenvhM0sypKlO3l0Iw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jay Daley , GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> --pyzbSFIo26YedoHoenvhM0sypKlO3l0Iw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F57078812B32C8BE30BFD583" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F57078812B32C8BE30BFD583 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 06/09/2021 23:05, Jay Daley wrote: > 7. Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss the FLOSS > business model in relation to specific supply chains. >=20 > Does that capture it? Not for me, sorry. My main point was that discussion is needed, and #7 was one example. I didn't attempt to provide a review of the entire draft. And I think for "dispatch" purposes that's all that's needed for now. If/when there's a venue for discussing the text (this list not being that venue), I'll engage. 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Mon Sep 6 18:56:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574FC3A097A for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MpN-LbLbSYle for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65A3C3A096F for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3630F46F9A19; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jT24mWzgG7fx; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 761C446EBC33; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:55:51 +1200 Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 01:56:07 -0000 Great thanks. Incorporating your comments and Stephen=E2=80=99s, my new = list is: 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of = certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark = makes a similar suggestion but with some items remaining as avoidance = recommended and some rephrased to warnings. 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his = compensation and benefits details (this possibly wraps into 1. above) 3. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better = explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant = market position. 4. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s any = doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not = contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal = legal advice". Have I got it correct this time? Jay > On 7/09/2021, at 1:26 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Jay, >=20 >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 8:05 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> If I could summarise the issues I=E2=80=99ve heard here: >>=20 >> 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of = certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark = makes a similar suggestion in order to avoid any recommendations being = weaponised to prevent legitimate discussions. >=20 > Correct, but this could be dealt with in a number of ways. Note that = this is entirely an issue of how IETF people might misread (and perhaps = misuse) the document's contents (the former already being evidenced in = discussion).=20 >=20 > Going a bit further - there are some sorts of things that we need to = prohibit in the IETF, because they're very clearly anti-competitive = (mostly cartel behaviour) and if the IETF countenances them, the = organisation will be legally answerable. Others are behaviours that = participants need to be aware might have competition law consequences = upon them (or more often, their employer), but aren't things we should = outright prohibit, because a court needs to make the judgment, not us. = The document would be improved if it distinguished between them. >=20 >> 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his = compensation and benefits details >>=20 >> 3. Mark points out (I think) that preventing all discussion of = compensation and benefits could be akin to imposing a "no poaching of = competitors staff" policy for the IETF >=20 > No; I was merely responding to some folks who were expressing = skepticism that discussion of compensation and benefits could be an = antitrust issue, by pointing out a case where it had been. >=20 >> 4. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better = explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant = market position. >>=20 >> 5. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s = any doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not = contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal = legal advice". >>=20 >> 6. Mark is concerned that dealing with the possible abuse of a = dominant position is unnecessary given there have been no cases brought = to suggest that regulators are concerned with this >=20 > Not exactly; I very much anticipate it becoming an issue, and = regulators are actively discussing it and processing complaints about = it. However, regulators aren't courts. What I'm concerned about is our = pre-empting the law by prohibiting 'behavior that may be considered = abuse of a dominant position' when the definition of that phrase is = still very much disputed in the legal world (both in the US and EU, = among other places). >=20 > For internal purposes, the same resolution as #1 applies; don't make = it a prohibition, make it advisory, so we don't have a situation where = someone accuses someone in IETF leadership of abusing dominance and the = IETF having no practical way to weigh that claim, or (more importantly) = authority to do so. =20 >=20 > There is also an external dimension to the considerations here. = Standards bodies might have a role to play in curtailing abuse of = dominance, and personally I think that the Internet would be a better = place if we did. More relevantly, if we don't competition authorities = will start to do it for standards-controlled technologies in addition to = proprietary ones. >=20 > However, if we're going to do that, it needs to be through an = established policy that can be applied by the IETF based upon shared = technical principles, not a one-line 'don't do it' admonishment. >=20 >> 7. Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss the FLOSS = business model in relation to specific supply chains. >=20 >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Sep 6 18:57:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9166B3A098A; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:57:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=wYb4hd8V; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ri2i63dj Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqBC31G74Qfp; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B45F63A0989; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 18:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD2C5C0139; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 06 Sep 2021 21:57:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=5 vIg9NeEmiaZUaJvq+FzeJdVI2ZXd4D2TM4DMwEi148=; b=wYb4hd8VuxGzjqEz2 Va579kBQTqDOnb73rVZ6ck/Z4Rh2zyKQQTos/VUahqMCSQjRQX3xHvVyaHUiiIvm NmjOZq6RRSaMUH5EA6KgNVSN2lPKgHWc3OrVjFp/tCs90xyJ0Y4RS0GgIE0Sl116 qztvRTZNN6/urrUCyjfvqNslJ6W25/awSIdxEi4UFWQFQssYd+WLyLsB6T+jKgYf CaU8L4f6/WX7Xsdf6UxPGveFmIYTciTT+3RwHzZfB2z6gm3rJm99fuuDnBaPXZBp uWNbL34GxzbOv18S+zrMYQdBGu1Gc20lqxnl5JgMi/VA/RPGkyAv2PuWKunIQ5sm uXgFQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=5vIg9NeEmiaZUaJvq+FzeJdVI2ZXd4D2TM4DMwEi1 48=; b=ri2i63djYBZ47u//6zdzSUEkM97sEGVIJzH3c3xszMFwTnNxOQyu7d6nw qPJntSC2s8IK7kqFpVVwGOBECb31dcWGZ/9cN5mk5Zq93KXKPOTalio6W4dhhB2d KRsgirhO6CaBU9jgdTsaKr0INYM+0ytFvyeObhe/Hr42Jz3zMYNZbchXKueETYRY Rc7FitCGyx3N0IKR4e4HtCgmyxTcym5NpPztfkffdIKVJ5Bx+PCoQglE4kt/z+Yn 3I7AA0c90Z2niSdnQkOoPNSqNuL9/uiFXji7sZUoLuKa14YjP75a1puFImQvosme 5sPEVQnpCo7oPWnoVHaTc/mgjD9cQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudefgedghedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpefhieffhefgtdekteejfffhgfegieelieeljeeigfdutddtvdehfeekgfevvdel keenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtpdhivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 21:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:57:27 +1000 Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 01:57:43 -0000 Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is the = way to go here. Cheers, > On 7 Sep 2021, at 11:55 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Great thanks. Incorporating your comments and Stephen=E2=80=99s, my = new list is: >=20 > 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of = certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark = makes a similar suggestion but with some items remaining as avoidance = recommended and some rephrased to warnings. >=20 > 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his = compensation and benefits details (this possibly wraps into 1. above) >=20 > 3. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better = explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant = market position. >=20 > 4. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s = any doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not = contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal = legal advice". >=20 > Have I got it correct this time? >=20 > Jay >=20 >=20 >> On 7/09/2021, at 1:26 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Jay, >>=20 >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 8:05 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>> If I could summarise the issues I=E2=80=99ve heard here: >>>=20 >>> 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of = certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark = makes a similar suggestion in order to avoid any recommendations being = weaponised to prevent legitimate discussions. >>=20 >> Correct, but this could be dealt with in a number of ways. Note that = this is entirely an issue of how IETF people might misread (and perhaps = misuse) the document's contents (the former already being evidenced in = discussion).=20 >>=20 >> Going a bit further - there are some sorts of things that we need to = prohibit in the IETF, because they're very clearly anti-competitive = (mostly cartel behaviour) and if the IETF countenances them, the = organisation will be legally answerable. Others are behaviours that = participants need to be aware might have competition law consequences = upon them (or more often, their employer), but aren't things we should = outright prohibit, because a court needs to make the judgment, not us. = The document would be improved if it distinguished between them. >>=20 >>> 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share = his compensation and benefits details >>>=20 >>> 3. Mark points out (I think) that preventing all discussion of = compensation and benefits could be akin to imposing a "no poaching of = competitors staff" policy for the IETF >>=20 >> No; I was merely responding to some folks who were expressing = skepticism that discussion of compensation and benefits could be an = antitrust issue, by pointing out a case where it had been. >>=20 >>> 4. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be = better explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a = dominant market position. >>>=20 >>> 5. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s = any doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not = contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal = legal advice". >>>=20 >>> 6. Mark is concerned that dealing with the possible abuse of a = dominant position is unnecessary given there have been no cases brought = to suggest that regulators are concerned with this >>=20 >> Not exactly; I very much anticipate it becoming an issue, and = regulators are actively discussing it and processing complaints about = it. However, regulators aren't courts. What I'm concerned about is our = pre-empting the law by prohibiting 'behavior that may be considered = abuse of a dominant position' when the definition of that phrase is = still very much disputed in the legal world (both in the US and EU, = among other places). >>=20 >> For internal purposes, the same resolution as #1 applies; don't make = it a prohibition, make it advisory, so we don't have a situation where = someone accuses someone in IETF leadership of abusing dominance and the = IETF having no practical way to weigh that claim, or (more importantly) = authority to do so. =20 >>=20 >> There is also an external dimension to the considerations here. = Standards bodies might have a role to play in curtailing abuse of = dominance, and personally I think that the Internet would be a better = place if we did. More relevantly, if we don't competition authorities = will start to do it for standards-controlled technologies in addition to = proprietary ones. >>=20 >> However, if we're going to do that, it needs to be through an = established policy that can be applied by the IETF based upon shared = technical principles, not a one-line 'don't do it' admonishment. >>=20 >>> 7. Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss the FLOSS = business model in relation to specific supply chains. >>=20 >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >> --=20 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Sep 6 19:01:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872593A09BB; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CPnxt_paKaTR; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 403893A09BA; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id b4so8426777ilr.11; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 19:01:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aQ7dVn91JKlTHjXo3/bnKsAhS5TZJMDFkEu28q7dIjs=; b=Egp7m6XVtCBA41iGiASHzd7eAVBPUYXa+HALvv/mhzhE98r7B2YzDpZbfbbYrcKz1E 22l6DrKN5gHs3R9b/hRsVt0EOHNZkzvSAZHmHH/9WyWwOeMVlJd6TAYOPlu624F3R+8H WYx00+l5iUaR+Bth7jq/XY/6T5XuXW2/RywLqgVOn5rnv4JeRB62MlhEdOAyXO0R4B6I Z70TTjvzqSPWCGLmYEuqnF/WZi/VznwEbTKwlKTMl3UE6jbXOLz/BlN8YI+7Ce4G8pAk fjRGwCyTdabqZZT+gawNTqnwNa3RglLk8hfTTz6vIb/2i3qNbD7Hhdr3VTpiiE5kPOwg omRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aQ7dVn91JKlTHjXo3/bnKsAhS5TZJMDFkEu28q7dIjs=; b=otp0/69i4c6IXqN6bT7uKpHjgId65v0Jp85ODI3pe/Ls0xj+jXvvcd9OAQCWNs+1iy m/ixTYMCjn5HaA2ERArudoopES3hhX35VO95L1A5zIinI8ei8Rsw1Q0s+HqSy9jFTNsV qY4JVcs51mRiaRvmpK54kqxlZJ1z8YZ0nHoW3l0eNkSsXCFR/no8UPx5YPcVJTaOtUwa C6zFpvYJamvl5g5V+ZLbuAIM0qA0AZUfNV1ZUtn9TU0+nOkLMmRtXIisNRXufIPEik0c O24/c1G5he75SfRL1cWVmnPJtr/ZzPqXmvYXbGMa7GcR6Me89tMA1IeYEr8HcgXsU9jW fxUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5327yHlZTyZy+zEFSpBYqcur0S0RPO/2saSaZAiTLAi81z0eIdnq +80PbQVGiG3d+Dwd1K+ACNxGXp1id6Z7g1XzU3rCMRYb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwscRSoYYEwMEGJ1me3b+iMryvg5k/36FiT4UXS9I0XYdfo0CBNk3kpBpeMjevuZuWMxyVv4Pj0liO/VEF1TMo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13c2:: with SMTP id v2mr1395332ilj.259.1630980085727; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 19:01:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 19:01:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Jay Daley , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a544c305cb5e242f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 02:01:33 -0000 --000000000000a544c305cb5e242f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is the wa= y > to go here. > I think Mark's interpretation makes sense, from my perspective. Jay, thanks for taking the time to work through these issues. thanks, Rob > > > > On 7 Sep 2021, at 11:55 am, Jay Daley wrote: > > > > Great thanks. Incorporating your comments and Stephen=E2=80=99s, my ne= w list is: > > > > 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of > certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark > makes a similar suggestion but with some items remaining as avoidance > recommended and some rephrased to warnings. > > > > 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his > compensation and benefits details (this possibly wraps into 1. above) > > > > 3. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better > explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant > market position. > > > > 4. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s an= y doubt - > I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not contain legal > advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian recommends the > alternative "This document does not constitute formal legal advice". > > > > Have I got it correct this time? > > > > Jay > > > > > >> On 7/09/2021, at 1:26 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> > >> Hi Jay, > >> > >>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 8:05 am, Jay Daley wrote: > >>> > >>> If I could summarise the issues I=E2=80=99ve heard here: > >>> > >>> 1. Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance of > certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions. Mark > makes a similar suggestion in order to avoid any recommendations being > weaponised to prevent legitimate discussions. > >> > >> Correct, but this could be dealt with in a number of ways. Note that > this is entirely an issue of how IETF people might misread (and perhaps > misuse) the document's contents (the former already being evidenced in > discussion). > >> > >> Going a bit further - there are some sorts of things that we need to > prohibit in the IETF, because they're very clearly anti-competitive (most= ly > cartel behaviour) and if the IETF countenances them, the organisation wil= l > be legally answerable. Others are behaviours that participants need to be > aware might have competition law consequences upon them (or more often, > their employer), but aren't things we should outright prohibit, because a > court needs to make the judgment, not us. The document would be improved = if > it distinguished between them. > >> > >>> 2. Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share his > compensation and benefits details > >>> > >>> 3. Mark points out (I think) that preventing all discussion of > compensation and benefits could be akin to imposing a "no poaching of > competitors staff" policy for the IETF > >> > >> No; I was merely responding to some folks who were expressing > skepticism that discussion of compensation and benefits could be an > antitrust issue, by pointing out a case where it had been. > >> > >>> 4. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be better > explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in a dominant > market position. > >>> > >>> 5. Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80=99s = any doubt > - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document does not contain lega= l > advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian recommends the > alternative "This document does not constitute formal legal advice". > >>> > >>> 6. Mark is concerned that dealing with the possible abuse of a > dominant position is unnecessary given there have been no cases brought t= o > suggest that regulators are concerned with this > >> > >> Not exactly; I very much anticipate it becoming an issue, and > regulators are actively discussing it and processing complaints about it. > However, regulators aren't courts. What I'm concerned about is our > pre-empting the law by prohibiting 'behavior that may be considered abuse > of a dominant position' when the definition of that phrase is still very > much disputed in the legal world (both in the US and EU, among other > places). > >> > >> For internal purposes, the same resolution as #1 applies; don't make i= t > a prohibition, make it advisory, so we don't have a situation where someo= ne > accuses someone in IETF leadership of abusing dominance and the IETF havi= ng > no practical way to weigh that claim, or (more importantly) authority to = do > so. > >> > >> There is also an external dimension to the considerations here. > Standards bodies might have a role to play in curtailing abuse of > dominance, and personally I think that the Internet would be a better pla= ce > if we did. More relevantly, if we don't competition authorities will star= t > to do it for standards-controlled technologies in addition to proprietary > ones. > >> > >> However, if we're going to do that, it needs to be through an > established policy that can be applied by the IETF based upon shared > technical principles, not a one-line 'don't do it' admonishment. > >> > >>> 7. Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss the FLOSS > business model in relation to specific supply chains. > >> > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> -- > >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > >> > >> -- > >> Gendispatch mailing list > >> Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > > > -- > > Jay Daley > > IETF Executive Director > > exec-director@ietf.org > > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000a544c305cb5e242f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Notti= ngham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
=
Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is = the way to go here.

I think Mark's = interpretation makes=C2=A0sense, from my perspective.

<= div>Jay, thanks for taking the time to work through these issues.

thanks,
Rob

=C2=A0
=


> On 7 Sep 2021, at 11:55 am, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Great thanks.=C2=A0 Incorporating your comments and Stephen=E2=80=99s,= my new list is:
>
> 1.=C2=A0 Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the avoidance= of certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussions.=C2=A0= Mark makes a similar suggestion but with some items remaining as avoidance= recommended and some rephrased to warnings.
>
> 2.=C2=A0 Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntarily share= his compensation and benefits details (this possibly wraps into 1. above)<= br> >
> 3.=C2=A0 S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" sh= ould be better explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe i= n a dominant market position.
>
> 4.=C2=A0 Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case there=E2=80= =99s any doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This document doe= s not contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while Brian = recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute formal l= egal advice".
>
> Have I got it correct this time?
>
> Jay
>
>
>> On 7/09/2021, at 1:26 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jay,
>>
>>> On 7 Sep 2021, at 8:05 am, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote= :
>>>
>>> If I could summarise the issues I=E2=80=99ve heard here:
>>>
>>> 1.=C2=A0 Rob wants section 5 rephrased from recommending the a= voidance of certain discussions, to warning people about certain discussion= s.=C2=A0 Mark makes a similar suggestion in order to avoid any recommendati= ons being weaponised to prevent legitimate discussions.
>>
>> Correct, but this could be dealt with in a number of ways. Note th= at this is entirely an issue of how IETF people might misread (and perhaps = misuse) the document's contents (the former already being evidenced in = discussion).
>>
>> Going a bit further - there are some sorts of things that we need = to prohibit in the IETF, because they're very clearly anti-competitive = (mostly cartel behaviour) and if the IETF countenances them, the organisati= on will be legally answerable. Others are behaviours that participants need= to be aware might have competition law consequences upon them (or more oft= en, their employer), but aren't things we should outright prohibit, bec= ause a court needs to make the judgment, not us. The document would be impr= oved if it distinguished between them.
>>
>>> 2.=C2=A0 Lloyd points out that he would be unable to voluntari= ly share his compensation and benefits details
>>>
>>> 3.=C2=A0 Mark points out (I think) that preventing all discuss= ion of compensation and benefits could be akin to imposing a "no poach= ing of competitors staff" policy for the IETF
>>
>> No; I was merely responding to some folks who were expressing skep= ticism that discussion of compensation and benefits could be an antitrust i= ssue, by pointing out a case where it had been.
>>
>>> 4.=C2=A0 S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position&= quot; should be better explained as relating to participants whose employer= maybe in a dominant market position.
>>>
>>> 5.=C2=A0 Rob wants to hear from an actual lawyer (in case ther= e=E2=80=99s any doubt - I am not a lawyer) that the phrase "This docum= ent does not contain legal advice" is a meaningful legal phrase, while= Brian recommends the alternative "This document does not constitute f= ormal legal advice".
>>>
>>> 6.=C2=A0 Mark is concerned that dealing with the possible abus= e of a dominant position is unnecessary given there have been no cases brou= ght to suggest that regulators are concerned with this
>>
>> Not exactly; I very much anticipate it becoming an issue, and regu= lators are actively discussing it and processing complaints about it. Howev= er, regulators aren't courts. What I'm concerned about is our pre-e= mpting the law by prohibiting 'behavior that may be considered abuse of= a dominant position' when the definition of that phrase is still very = much disputed in the legal world (both in the US and EU, among other places= ).
>>
>> For internal purposes, the same resolution as #1 applies; don'= t make it a prohibition, make it advisory, so we don't have a situation= where someone accuses someone in IETF leadership of abusing dominance and = the IETF having no practical way to weigh that claim, or (more importantly)= authority to do so.=C2=A0
>>
>> There is also an external dimension to the considerations here. St= andards bodies might have a role to play in curtailing abuse of dominance, = and personally I think that the Internet would be a better place if we did.= More relevantly, if we don't competition authorities will start to do = it for standards-controlled technologies in addition to proprietary ones. >>
>> However, if we're going to do that, it needs to be through an = established policy that can be applied by the IETF based upon shared techni= cal principles, not a one-line 'don't do it' admonishment.
>>
>>> 7.=C2=A0 Stephen points out that he would be unable to discuss= the FLOSS business model in relation to specific supply chains.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/
>>
>> --
>> Gendispatch mailing list
>> Gendispa= tch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen= dispatch
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-direc= tor@ietf.org
>

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000a544c305cb5e242f-- From nobody Mon Sep 6 22:38:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088533A0B21; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 22:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=episteme.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v2a0U0646rQh; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 22:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helm.helm.episteme.net (helm.helm.episteme.net [209.51.32.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BB903A0B1F; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 22:38:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=episteme.net; s=mail; t=1630993104; bh=UHKguJ8eZUeMpiaaFFidrAaAEQ9D5HwGkstO3XFwjKE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=Sblznm6yMrpY/7DDMBSntZR7E8d376BVQiztZ0BIoCoXsd0eaB0qlbHayFxHpkPAv B17iHxiHMuLRV/+oX16XY87wclJyGG+ME95FLsDAo71eqqLkdBclQXZY8Saed6XpFE KKFkaMKbVC0nkyT3uc+lKCcb55VG2Z+rI8uaptbI= From: Pete Resnick To: Rob Sayre Cc: Mark Nottingham , Jay Daley , GENDISPATCH List Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 00:38:22 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5820) Message-ID: <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 05:38:33 -0000 On 6 Sep 2021, at 21:01, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is >> the way to go here. > > I think Mark's interpretation makes sense, from my perspective. I have not yet consulted with my co-chair, so I'm not concluding the dispatch discussion itself, but I believe I also heard in the discussion "AD-sponsored is the way to go, with advice to the AD that discussion of some issues is still required, perhaps before Last Call, and therefore a forum of discussion should be identified." You should probably speak up if I didn't get that right. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ Episteme Technology Consulting LLC +1 217 337 1905 From nobody Mon Sep 6 23:31:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4540D3A0A27 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5vGCHLIo5Ufj for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out20.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out20.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61C453A0A22 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse345.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.91] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx135.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mNUdx-000AWG-Bx for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:31:42 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4H3b5Q3SDbzB9c for ; Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mNUdu-00043R-BM for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 23:31:38 -0700 Received: (qmail 30596 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2021 06:31:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.114]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 7 Sep 2021 06:31:37 -0000 To: Pete Resnick , Rob Sayre Cc: Mark Nottingham , GENDISPATCH List , Jay Daley References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <16578d1c-9026-fb53-80aa-09e4d406c05f@huitema.net> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 23:31:38 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EB0EFB747D0CFCCBAC9A41E5" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.91 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiquycK nfplLwevb6MaIU+PBJR6B94pF4iTqU0cvvbhSXORSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVOxKcDfOHUyi24bwlNw56EXGFd932lfz+R/06O3Iy4alsvCwp YJpdb4B2L4Z5wQyKkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8SkwqWAikMcSxTAWn8RCv ieGEqjG/gXZAaRh1X6LVetRf2ZYIiHqfCgG4wrA3w4/kQTYKxDHA9JN9J4k4XZq11JQkMemT4rxn nByU11Ftkqf3f/PF3GUV+KdBBqrnCX8j0Gi8Ksk+aedMfNWSnJswrtlNtZo3HPHi5Q+jjsF5dcBx ehWYzrkgsp4/Fysgb2cPV4IH0+lPwKr4i5mAANUcVraZYOaeuiH/yEdZH8S1+TgcJBOjh0vPxcQO jKKOrYIQYpwamUdylUIKhf3z2GAHxH7Iiihnln5nLwsYugixy853dgGI409Uexq5zP1TE60A1w74 UKA2S9bx5DSVg1H5UokUb3UQT3xbkHqpqmyCe4PiKVv0wNAmy0z4NCWU5AbBg6tDVPQ6fMev1BMP vQ9qu4cW0z6bhalFEM/pjPCQA+BAliEg3z5zDd0uIsTGObNzjCO3h1ESmlc3/lS5x7qxkdlaSG1k uBokxvf38l+TAieNRINgin764rR8qDJ/K89L0tVRXxKF5tPxTxfD0dMN+t5Zepb26gwKrVUGsd+n 4HBiCfoPFZIShBSdpVJW5HbjQTCUIzbw71BPKv8cPtVshTSLr6YHJu91A3avrF49rf9JcoEpejCA XczArXyV+OFXiMtbLPp9n350Mbemie5JWWm/MpxAyl4q1x5O0+PBD/gPmWjXVA9S7TnWXDlmMpVd cwCFwrnT0GQK/7labXRdXAB+MS+4ayUpOtEhdxekWDmK9g== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 06:31:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EB0EFB747D0CFCCBAC9A41E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/6/2021 10:38 PM, Pete Resnick wrote: > On 6 Sep 2021, at 21:01, Rob Sayre wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >>> Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is=20 >>> the way to go here. >> >> =C2=A0I think Mark's interpretation makes sense, from my perspective. > > I have not yet consulted with my co-chair, so I'm not concluding the=20 > dispatch discussion itself, but I believe I also heard in the=20 > discussion "AD-sponsored is the way to go, with advice to the AD that=20 > discussion of some issues is still required, perhaps before Last Call, = > and therefore a forum of discussion should be identified." You should=20 > probably speak up if I didn't get that right.=20 Yes. It is nice to have a document summarizing potential anti-trust=20 issues, and this draft is a good basis for it. However, the bullet list=20 in section 5 is hastily worded, and could be either misinterpreted or=20 used to curtail useful discussions. For example: * We definitely do not want to see the IETF used by companies as a way=20 to coordinate pricing of their products. But we know that in many case,=20 the inclusion of some complex features in a standard might make products = more expensive to product. Suppose an engineer objects that "If we pick=20 option B, the product development will last twice longer and the product = will require twice as much memory and CPU." Is that really a discussion=20 we want to prohibit? * We don't want companies coordinating their product launch strategies,=20 which I think is what lies behind the "specific market opportunities"=20 product. But then, a big reason for developing standards is precisely=20 the need to enable development of new products that serve identified=20 needs. Do we really want to prohibit discussion of such topics? * We definitely do not want companies using the IETF to coordinate their = compensation policies and establish some kind of employers' cartel. But=20 if some participants want to compare their salaries, are we going to try = prevent that? I think the current bullet list format is too terse and does not convey=20 the necessary nuances. -- Christian Huitema --------------EB0EFB747D0CFCCBAC9A41E5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 9/6/2021 10:38 PM, Pete Resnick wrote:
On 6 Sep 2021, at 21:01, Rob Sayre wrote:

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is the way to go here.

 I think Mark's interpretation makes sense, from my perspective.

I have not yet consulted with my co-chair, so I'm not concluding the dispatch discussion itself, but I believe I also heard in the discussion "AD-sponsored is the way to go, with advice to the AD that discussion of some issues is still required, perhaps before Last Call, and therefore a forum of discussion should be identified." You should probably speak up if I didn't get that right.


Yes. It is nice to have a document summarizing potential anti-trust issues, and this draft is a good basis for it. However, the bullet list in section 5 is hastily worded, and could be either misinterpreted or used to curtail useful discussions. For example:

* We definitely do not want to see the IETF used by companies as a way to coordinate pricing of their products. But we know that in many case, the inclusion of some complex features in a standard might make products more expensive to product. Suppose an engineer objects that "If we pick option B, the product development will last twice longer and the product will require twice as much memory and CPU." Is that really a discussion we want to prohibit?

* We don't want companies coordinating their product launch strategies, which I think is what lies behind the "specific market opportunities" product. But then, a big reason for developing standards is precisely the need to enable development of new products that serve identified needs. Do we really want to prohibit discussion of such topics?

* We definitely do not want companies using the IETF to coordinate their compensation policies and establish some kind of employers' cartel. But if some participants want to compare their salaries, are we going to try prevent that?

I think the current bullet list format is too terse and does not convey the necessary nuances.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------EB0EFB747D0CFCCBAC9A41E5-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 01:45:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4D13A1529 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 01:45:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=open-xchange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AQP7Hzh4vsf for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 01:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85E503A1516 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 01:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imap.open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx4.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 326046A0CD; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:45:00 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=open-xchange.com; s=201705; t=1631004300; bh=vmRWo5FYBZsS99t7NIIqFSq4EmkQ4YikQcyv8FMCdhA=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=hxdPN/2Ir+gLKaZ/Gr7/bhEOOL7K6ExKNf5OjS02/q4/iXzN7XaW6fnfAr6w0W+NE Ge97HlNi8hWCpPDWQsMQcEqUL5U1r1AMnJtggEAov3NearmTrnyPnv/5mRXWpKHNuP ncQcL67Ep0pktUSeecEEOyp0u+Zx/sNskpdLitujCO5MVfMbI/hSXI+bp72f+n9bM+ Mpu7Mi70jQDAfSrq+x7sU4cju/PwLGqRZkuxS9Ye9Ncw6X3z4tB4xsRRZgUtsLvJs/ ykc5TtvYaoGnDAdmMUsMDUQe3T1e1hGoFM/y6t+tfdXNcQwn42HdTj3Cs/AfOenx7M GA8PtLBiCkIyA== Received: from appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com ([10.20.28.81]) by imap.open-xchange.com with ESMTPSA id j61PDIwmN2H4RAAA3c6Kzw (envelope-from ); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 10:45:00 +0200 Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 10:45:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Vittorio Bertola To: John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <1159894385.591.1631004300126@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> In-Reply-To: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> References: <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com> <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.5-Rev22 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Autocrypt: addr=vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFhFR+UBCACfoywFKBRfzasiiR9/6dwY36eLePXcdScumDMR8qoXvRS55QYDjp5bs+yMq41qWV9 xp/cqryY9jnvHbeF3TsE5yEazpD1dleRbkpElUBpPwXqkrSP8uXO9KkS9KoX6gdml6M4L+F82WpqYC1 uTzOE6HPmhmQ4cGSgoia2jolxAhRpzoYN99/BwpvoZeTSLP5K6yPlMPYkMev/uZlAkMMhelli9IN6yA yxcC0AeHSnOAcNKUr13yXyMlTyi1cdMJ4sk88zIbefxwg3PAtYjkz3wgvP96cNVwAgSt4+j/ZuVaENP pgVuM512m051j9SlspWDHtzrci5pBKKFsibnTelrABEBAAG0NUJlcnRvbGEsIFZpdHRvcmlvIDx2aXR 0b3Jpby5iZXJ0b2xhQG9wZW4teGNoYW5nZS5jb20+iQFABBMBAgAqBAsJCAcGFQoJCAsCBRYCAwEAAp 4BAhsDBYkSzAMABQMAAAAABYJYRUflAAoJEIU2cHmzj8qNaG0H/ROY+suCP86hoN+9RIV66Ej8b3sb8 UgwFJOJMupZfeb9yTIJwE4VQT5lTt146CcJJ5jvxD6FZn1Htw9y4/45pPAF7xLE066jg3OqRvzeWRZ3 IDUfJJIiM5YGk1xWxDqppSwhnKcMOuI72iioWxX0nGQrWxpnWJsjt08IEEwuYucDkul1PHsrLJbTd58 fiMKLVwag+IE1SPHOwkPF6arZQZIfB5ThtOZV+36Jn8Hok9XfeXWBVyPkiWCQYVX39QsIbr0JNR9kQy 4g2ZFexOcTe8Jo12jPRL7V8OqStdDes3cje9lWFLnX05nrfLuE0l0JKWEg8akN+McFXc+oV68h7nu5A Q0EWEVH5QEIAIDKanNBe1uRfk8AjLirflZO291VNkOAeUu+dIhecGnZeQW6htlDinlYOnXhtsY1mK9W PUu+xshDq7lXn2G0LxldYwyJYZaJtDgIKqVqwxfA34Lj27oqPuXwcvGhdCgt0SW/YcalRdAi0/AzUCu 5GSaj2kaGUSnBYYUP4szGJXjaK2psP5toQSCtx2pfSXQ6MaqPK9Zzy+D5xc6VWQRp/iRImodAcPf8fg JJvRyJ8Jla3lKWyvBBzJDg6MOf6Fts78bJSt23X0uPp93g7GgbYkuRMnFI4RGoTVkxjD/HBEJ0CNg22 hoHJondhmKnZVrHEluFuSnW0wBEIYomcPSPB+cAEQEAAYkBMQQYAQIAGwUCWEVH5QIbDAQLCQgHBhUK CQgLAgUJEswDAAAKCRCFNnB5s4/KjdO8B/wNpvWtOpLdotR/Xh4fu08Fd63nnNfbIGIETWsVi0Sbr8i E5duuGaaWIcMmUvgKe/BM0Fpj9X01Zjm90uoPrlVVuQWrf+vFlbalUYVZr51gl5UyUFHk+iAZCAA0WB rsmACKvuV1P7GuiX3UV9b59T9taYJxN3dNFuftrEuvsqHimFtlekUjUwoCekTJdncFusBhwz2OrKhHr WWrEsXkfh0+pURWYAlKlTxvXuI7gAfHEQM+6OnrWvXYtlhd0M1sBPnCjbyG63Qws7Rek9bEWKtH6dA6 dmT2FQT+g1S9Mdf0WkPTQNX0x24dm8IoHuD3KYwX7Svx43Xa17aZnXqUjtj1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 08:45:10 -0000 > Il 06/09/2021 21:12 John Levine ha scritto: > > In general it is illegal for competitors to coordinate the way they do > business. Stanrdards development has a carveout because there there > is a widely understood benefit to the public for competing products > to interoperate. That isn't limited to software; it's why the lightbulbs > you buy at the hardware store fit into the sockets in the desk lamps you > bought at the office supply store. On this, there is one very important aspect that the draft IMHO fails to address, which is any lack of inclusiveness (voluntary or involuntary) in the participants set. Standards development is not considered anticompetitive as long as all those whose businesses are impacted by the new standard have a voice in the process or can at least exploit the standard on fair terms. If a group of companies agree to design and adopt a standard that makes it harder for companies outside of that subset to compete with them, then this is potentially (I'd say definitely) an antitrust issue. I am not a lawyer, so I cannot say, for example, whether the current IETF policies for participation (open door, no fees etc.) are in themselves sufficient to avoid that risk, or whether specific care should be taken to involve all potentially affected industry sectors before finalizing a standard that would impact market and product opportunities. I'd still recommend that the point is addressed in the draft. -- Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy From nobody Tue Sep 7 02:27:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BB93A1713; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:26:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ROW2bvovnlPp; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC60E3A170A; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.143.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 1879QdGs018361; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:26:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1631006809; x=1631093209; i=@elandsys.com; bh=FJJ2y5mg6BZduzA6yI5v5kQ2KOaGlHY6ahqpPzJ+45Q=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=Yw7KT3d+/EMx9OZo9sWbwnbp+cIX1o0xY2sfD74GARZyET6kDAjPEMZbA9bbQz4oU i5RG/1ZSNFPNhYmUwNTBXPpBH+vK+MtgkuBYt1of3H2UNgdEgVdY1mnCrDhAvtQP4Z iBedm0FgII1l3FFyDfLOseqzHRAU0Q9XJ9J5cq0c= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210907022234.0b882680@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 02:25:56 -0700 To: Jay Daley , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:26:58 -0000 Hi Jay, At 06:55 PM 06-09-2021, Jay Daley wrote: >3. S. Moonesamy points out that "dominant position" should be >better explained as relating to participants whose employer maybe in >a dominant market position. [snip] >Have I got it correct this time? The short answer is Yes. Christian explained it better. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Tue Sep 7 02:45:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29F43A17DC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DynYLW2ESZIK for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBE43A17D6 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.115.143.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 1879j6j9022439; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:45:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1631007918; x=1631094318; i=@elandsys.com; bh=EOXRVjlgDITUBoEpvPxaiL6wBl1JDzcRY65XK1JoagA=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=EbXNrGbimRIIFO1937YhkvAr2Vvy0fyR+BmyogPmiQtGYbifYqEH42HF7p/oGzvVn Un8d6ofeyTQYp+7OBoXVr5DBMm9HegjAUbBkT34e9jagOyrjYcyDwVkhcz9N7qR44S gowSqq9329CjumYIrUQhIWFZQXHyLOWBRAh2xgmw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210907022734.0b873d50@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 02:44:48 -0700 To: Stephen Farrell , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <3a105324-b47f-da53-b4b6-56c2db3f2ec1@cs.tcd.ie> <8fce48af-8ac0-187b-3a8f-56504e404e52@gmail.com> <7a43a750-f6e6-096d-8f89-a1c5a4fd2cb9@cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:45:44 -0000 Hi Stephen, At 05:56 PM 03-09-2021, Stephen Farrell wrote: >(bullet 4). Again though - I'm not against the draft but >do think the text needs non-trivial discussion before hitting >a last call, which'd affect my answer to a "dispatch" >question: basically I'd not be ok with pushing this ASAP as >an AD sponsored document, which I think was your reaction. >I'd maybe be fine with AD sponsored after some community discussion, >but not with the text as-is. The do and don't guidance (in the draft) is good enough as a starting point. However, it comes out as overly simplistic [1]. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. The IETF Administration LLC stated that "Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated. Bright line dos/don'ts miss important nuance". Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Tue Sep 7 02:56:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB1F3A183A; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:56:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPJNMopk1_gk; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8251A3A1826; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 02:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 1879tqiw241677 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:55:53 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1631008554; bh=3946uxnqQlESmK5uNXhtYDJh5VGrhE+C1lz5KcCLX74=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=VK5umMgN5pvm1/b28RVLOKl7z5etIZRFsbY9oLq5vZX/XqEXhLFp2cDO4ISPVzEpc bd9qUXuiYvLTq/toufb2ckvngZIzeiQswt9Oyn5857L6ubnCgS6M51xoe5yXOZc0JS Pos5oed7e9y+2Q2YeOi2I/JbvV7whQ9vilQGgmgc= To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:55:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hAgzAanxLrrMMSW2hPONantPCZjTA3kkO" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:56:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hAgzAanxLrrMMSW2hPONantPCZjTA3kkO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="k7A0ANTHlTFMpxBQHnbkVCweNs2ID9eHh"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> --k7A0ANTHlTFMpxBQHnbkVCweNs2ID9eHh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US This draft was posted eight days ago.=C2=A0 Some of us require advice on = this=20 matter outside of this room.=C2=A0 I'd ask that you defer any action unti= l we=20 can get that advice.=C2=A0 I don't anticipate that taking long (a week or= so?). Eliot On 07.09.21 07:38, Pete Resnick wrote: > On 6 Sep 2021, at 21:01, Rob Sayre wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >>> Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is=20 >>> the way to go here. >> >> =C2=A0I think Mark's interpretation makes sense, from my perspective. > > I have not yet consulted with my co-chair, so I'm not concluding the=20 > dispatch discussion itself, but I believe I also heard in the=20 > discussion "AD-sponsored is the way to go, with advice to the AD that=20 > discussion of some issues is still required, perhaps before Last Call, = > and therefore a forum of discussion should be identified." You should=20 > probably speak up if I didn't get that right. > > pr > --k7A0ANTHlTFMpxBQHnbkVCweNs2ID9eHh-- --hAgzAanxLrrMMSW2hPONantPCZjTA3kkO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmE3NyYFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNU YAf+KxFmCq6PmDh0q3zdnxdjLtOu4qeX+AJCCKHP66dbRomoKSsF3eKSK3pF6+YfOuoUg6a/a+Dm U6LbEwfvs1Zl4NnSw9zjagevvvBLAnxmpix1g4EICoBENZVfVZmxPLGPNtYqifkAjv1dx83592PO xJdnxG29BZhtnf6P1YHSGdko6pDf0mFLABvb8FX9RzDk1L3UJX4LrfM7SbGygduUKLNKBWVVvOa9 dM9HNMtCOkXDVlhfjU2T4Jt7ZsjVWi7vBr90U0CuMLMIvJOYInqBAgnEl36toXeasktC0hqYYyRZ iRnVCG9W1RsGkwjdqdhuRZE4I1Elrep95T8Az1+ORg== =YJ6k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hAgzAanxLrrMMSW2hPONantPCZjTA3kkO-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 05:07:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E673A1CF7; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 05:06:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.36.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 05:06:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 12:06:37 -0000 A new version (-04) has been submitted for draft-eggert-bcp45bis: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.html The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ Diff from previous version: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04 IETF Secretariat. 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(prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 187HJ74r013595; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:22:17 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3av44ywahj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 13:22:17 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:22:17 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:22:17 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Brian E Carpenter , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHXoeLe7PMKBPk/m0u4Pw5oGin24KuY1geA Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:22:15 +0000 Message-ID: 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General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 17:22:34 -0000 ICAgID4gVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBkZXNjcmliZXMgdGhlIGluZGl2aWR1YWxzIGFuZCBvcmdhbml6 YXRpb25zIGludm9sdmVkIGluIHRoZSBJRVRGIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBwcm9jZXNzIGFzIGRlc2NyaWJl ZCBpbiBbSUVURlBST0NTXS4gDQoNCiAgICBUaGlzIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgdG8gQkNQ OSwgbm90IHRvIFJGQzIwMjYgd2hpY2ggaGFzIGJlZW4gc2lnbmlmaWNhbnRseSBhbWVuZGVkLiBJ biBnZW5lcmFsLCBjaXRpbmcgQkNQIG51bWJlcnMgaXMgbXVjaCBtb3JlIGZ1dHVyZS1wcm9vZi4N Cg0KVGhhdCdzIGFuIEVYQ0VMTEVOVCBwb2ludC4gIFRoZSB0YXJnZXQgZm9yIElFVEZQUk9DUyBp cyBub3cgQkNQOS4gU28gbXVsdGlwbGUgY2hhbmdlcyBoYXBwZW5lZCBpbiB0aGUgUkZDLT5CQ1Ag Y2hhbmdlcywgYW5kIEkgd29uJ3QgY2FsbCBhbGwgb2YgdGhlbSBvdXQuDQoNCiAgICA+IEl0IGlu Y2x1ZGVzIGJyaWVmIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyBvZiB0aGUgZW50aXRpZXMgaW52b2x2ZWQsIGFuZCB0 aGUgcm9sZSB0aGV5IHBsYWNlIGluIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZHMgcHJvY2Vzcy4NCg0KICAgIE5pdDog cy9wbGFjZS9wbGF5Lw0KDQpEb25lLg0KDQogICAgPiBJdCBhbHNvIGFkZHJlc3NlcyB0aGUgaW50 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bXkgdmlldywgdGhpcyBzZW50ZW5jZXMgYmVsaXR0bGVzIHRoZSByZWxhdGlvbnNoaXAuICBJIHdv dWxkIHN0YXJ0IGJ5IHJlaW5zdGF0aW5nIHNvbWUgdGV4dCBmcm9tIFJGQzIwMjgsIGJvb3N0ZWQg YnkgYSByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gUkZDODcxMiB3aGljaCBnb2VzIGludG8gbW9yZSBkZXRhaWw6IA0K DQogICAgSW50ZXJuZXQgc3RhbmRhcmRpemF0aW9uIGlzIGFuIG9yZ2FuaXplZCBhY3Rpdml0eSBv ZiB0aGUgSVNPQywgd2l0aA0KICAgIHRoZSBCb2FyZCBvZiBUcnVzdGVlcyBiZWluZyByZXNwb25z aWJsZSBmb3IgcmF0aWZ5aW5nIHRoZSBwcm9jZWR1cmVzDQogICAgYW5kIHJ1bGVzIG9mIHRoZSBJ bnRlcm5ldCBzdGFuZGFyZHMgcHJvY2VzcyBbUkZDODcxMl0uDQoNCkkgYWRkZWQgdGhpcyBhbmQg cy9zbWFsbCBidXQgaW1wb3J0YW50L2FuIGltcG9ydGFudC8NCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Sep 7 11:04:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800DB3A08FC for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:04:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=episteme.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id maZjvy0EEplR for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helm.helm.episteme.net (helm.helm.episteme.net [209.51.32.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BF3F3A08FD for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:04:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=episteme.net; s=mail; t=1631037857; bh=uI3IaDLqlruT/0b8OQjavomDslaoAC1df9DDGHlvu2Y=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=AUO2/Qa1kXoB7gT+vKqIC42tpupwfdsm4MHSwHgDC/qGfG9VxvLxYnx3r25v63WFo vp/w8ZwrGTJulkySojoUitDc4I4tHU+pUVCLxwKSUVar8KucHu3K8IrymZlpZvstA4 xVTdsFbVhB7fePxqD/avNx4t8gAEt97uv3WIjp3w= From: Pete Resnick To: Eliot Lear Cc: GENDISPATCH List Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 13:04:16 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.14r5820) Message-ID: <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; markup=markdown Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:04:23 -0000 On 7 Sep 2021, at 4:55, Eliot Lear wrote: > This draft was posted eight days ago. Some of us require advice on > this matter outside of this room. I'd ask that you defer any action > until we can get that advice. I don't anticipate that taking long (a > week or so?). I'm not sure I understand: You need time for outside advice on the dispatch question? I can understand perhaps needing advice on giving input to the content of the document, but I'm not clear why you would need advice to give input to the dispatch question. pr -- Pete Resnick https://www.episteme.net/ All connections to the world are tenuous at best From nobody Tue Sep 7 11:06:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E19493A090F; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BJsilZ1aIeCq; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EF4F3A090B; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 11:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::2] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:2]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 187I6AnL246783 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:06:10 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1631037970; bh=ExGEPJ28gk66Tcr6YiR5rC5b4HirXLNQDxRIDRTf0hw=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=SI5w958z4dfiYfgug0fT8SCj0HdEh3i+960YZvFOsZcoFtNWdJzFHXzB6qd/7K5W8 MM9s/aC9ceDFB4QRyPJDhxCmJQqrhw6gOXzbU2TueTJQ+aU89Ct0IyyNALxKQmW3eO 2ciJZnm0MAHA0aQkm13PuV/RuU8iv9rtOxAVI+Xw= To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:06:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0372gatvVi0muMJmxIsqu5W5sYieWTRMF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 18:06:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0372gatvVi0muMJmxIsqu5W5sYieWTRMF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8Wdm5f5FTjJA2KyVy9zZnWOaiT0GkSyoo"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> --8Wdm5f5FTjJA2KyVy9zZnWOaiT0GkSyoo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US They are related Pete.=C2=A0 The real question is whether this is advice = that=20 should be given by the IETF.=C2=A0 As I have access to anti-trust experts= , I=20 thought I would ask one.=C2=A0 I have done, and am awaiting his response.= Eliot On 07.09.21 20:04, Pete Resnick wrote: > On 7 Sep 2021, at 4:55, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> This draft was posted eight days ago. Some of us require advice on=20 >> this matter outside of this room. I'd ask that you defer any action=20 >> until we can get that advice. I don't anticipate that taking long (a=20 >> week or so?). > > I'm not sure I understand: You need time for outside advice on the=20 > dispatch question? I can understand perhaps needing advice on giving=20 > input to the content of the document, but I'm not clear why you would=20 > need advice to give input to the dispatch question. > > pr --8Wdm5f5FTjJA2KyVy9zZnWOaiT0GkSyoo-- --0372gatvVi0muMJmxIsqu5W5sYieWTRMF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmE3qhEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOL jwf+NTbT+XgdVw2X6Xd0E+YhEcIQAU8vMzN0Qlz80t5OjucslCTvxaxLK0WgzuWFnS12dZ9U6zqc 0tEmcrIFujixVs8BOXQu69dy5Ndb0GIutN36/8WHe4Ep4JOEd66I8yDloPbIQycW/kiIB4ebOzth jf1mqG2ZZttRDaxWEv+9+Tu2VvCO0o1IvdQ7o3bnR3u9/EuUJyuUYtzwfn1LrJBrV3HLcIANpoNl kq5tRDIcQgNXnKq82PYtWK98IdUru+ci7gPkwbRL2zaZw7PUSsNcRlosWu5IgZLU7q9EiwQSEFaG UDG0B5svG4dd3ySSvQ22avIqN7j1byjbXl0K6NxQmw== =3typ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0372gatvVi0muMJmxIsqu5W5sYieWTRMF-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 14:52:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF07A3A1A45 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ll8nT73h_2J for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F3173A1A42 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id j1so224234pjv.3 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/4fEYsM175jZLA9hFxHTW4SR+gbIR0b7ResF6NS/Gv4=; b=ACqcjYCjwmqnh6Xgo1w6qNUYD6xI6GWg6+5831xz/x1wTOBpYFVhZogGuLQFwlcWAe WkxmQ7Nl+aFtbjKdpBW6OH/4Hh+iqRxceeBvpbDg2i+wagxsKcqu0X/VOSVfRjbsRdKS HtcEuuw3MmptbVevHA8CyomOvwcL8YrLARXGS1TLWI8BaaDwVriHkok4Eya77uqmsNgn LHUErdhhBnn8dJiYmSxugXJQGWlxz0ORX9sUacnnyjjc+PnbTuRurR4bUm8J4Q1pybzm Ml04Gg54iosaJBXL10yyDH7qkl0BNJE3p56JhzRQYtRjAafzsr0KM/lWXW7W8G8hIcWc tgdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/4fEYsM175jZLA9hFxHTW4SR+gbIR0b7ResF6NS/Gv4=; b=Sf8gYEt+MpW8nVgCeb4iaw9LhtpIcmmMEBjtthn7pXWtN1Gmr8YhRENNroi8yoSF9a WozRZe6Q6VqN9ZFU9HviLrivXOA0WRl28ccLfglSgafdpxV3OFc+l+7DTCqy/+bOHF94 aC9Bbbjvns3TDa0kOGlhm2iMiVZl2B+r2GQYN+/TG+AN5bvJ6ggGdlUubVoBo29zQEf/ mK1faWu/GJHSkpl6Mm8WojagXnwaGG8Ghpowk2A4Rb9lwI0Bxdy0pwL/pWjYVCM06sG+ b5MnouiSa7edKN1Dw3dPtRXqJ1LvzlDYfjzpiTR1QDSalZ7x8tdAVE3Wear9qnW8V/4q EtXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5317BDAedBWTixh6sNOP1UoqgDv+KodoVkSXVTz3J1BU37YSyqsA FreKl+gfXp8aDHqf0ITzT99JSftZnqM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz4a5qeOxePFd08K7J2UybZKlzso1p2EkbvO2IoK4otp6Kx5H6KGFUQ6cJh44Ie4DKjY3QTpA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:ec9:: with SMTP id gz9mr510524pjb.24.1631051532654; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z6sm45921pjn.27.2021.09.07.14.52.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 14:52:12 -0700 (PDT) To: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <999afaad-0037-fedf-a890-0eea0ec51ce1@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 09:52:08 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 21:52:17 -0000 Hi Rich, thanks, just one response: > > See [NOMCOM] for a detailed description of the Nomcom procedures. Other matters concerning its organization and operation, are described in the IESG charter [IESG] > > Again, please refer to the BCPs. > > BCP10 for NOMCOM, but which one were you thinking of for the IESG? BCP92 isn't appropriate. You're right. I'm a bit surprised that RFC3710 is Informational, but it is. (It's also updated by three different BCP's, which is a bit odd, but there it is.) Regards Brian On 08-Sep-21 05:22, Salz, Rich wrote: > > This document describes the individuals and organizations involved in the IETF standards process as described in [IETFPROCS]. > > This reference should be to BCP9, not to RFC2026 which has been significantly amended. In general, citing BCP numbers is much more future-proof. > > That's an EXCELLENT point. The target for IETFPROCS is now BCP9. So multiple changes happened in the RFC->BCP changes, and I won't call all of them out. > > > It includes brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they place in the standards process. > > Nit: s/place/play/ > > Done. > > > It also addresses the intellectual property rights and copyright issues associated with the standards process. > > No, that's been removed to two separate documents, BCP78 and BCP79. > > I removed the sentence. > > > 3.1. The Document Editor or Author > ... > > When a Document Editor is a Chair of the same working group, a co-chair should manage the process around the document. If a co-chair is not available, the process must be monitored carefully to ensure that the resulting documents accurately reflect the consensus of the Working Group and that all processes are followed. This can be the collective obligation of all parties involved in the document. > > I completely agree with this, but it belongs in RFC2418bis, not here. > > I disagree, and am not making this change because I think the "this can be" sentence describes the individuals in the same way the other sentences about individuals do. Of course, if/when adopted, the consensus may argue against me. So keep this mail :) > > 3.4. The Request for Comments Editor > > This section should probably just be TBD until the RFC Editor model work is concluded. > > I expect it will be updated once that group is done, yes :) If nothing else it serves as a placeholder and shows how much text to allow for the section (just kidding, sort of). > > > See [NOMCOM] for a detailed description of the Nomcom procedures. Other matters concerning its organization and operation, are described in the IESG charter [IESG] > > Again, please refer to the BCPs. > > BCP10 for NOMCOM, but which one were you thinking of for the IESG? BCP92 isn't appropriate. > >> The IETF's relationship with IANA is defined by formal agreements including [RFC2860]. > > Added that sentence and ref, thanks. > > > 4.6. IETF Secretariat > > For clarity, I suggest moving this to just after the section describing the LLC. > > Done. > > True, but 'LLCLEGAL' is a very misleading handle for RFC8712. See next comment: > > Changed it ISOCIETF > > > 4.10. Internet Society (ISOC) > > > > ISOC plays a small but important role in the standards process. It appoints the NomCom Chair, confirms IAB candidates, and acts as the last resort in appeals process > > In my view, this sentences belittles the relationship. I would start by reinstating some text from RFC2028, boosted by a reference to RFC8712 which goes into more detail: > > Internet standardization is an organized activity of the ISOC, with > the Board of Trustees being responsible for ratifying the procedures > and rules of the Internet standards process [RFC8712]. > > I added this and s/small but important/an important/ > > From nobody Tue Sep 7 15:35:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48B93A1C46 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:35:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNdCZBEJuik5 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x431.google.com (mail-pf1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A1583A1C44 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x431.google.com with SMTP id f65so323712pfb.10 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:35:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=j9uEBJsLmcQJLHI5apf8DuJ2cH9Yej+SWhhXa8HtIRw=; b=T2yjwAlJvgNfJ/4E9UPr/W5UIMJr66lHoJSyGXMvczAvtlGbYGcScpKakXjtTs3exs hHJ9I5V7HkFFs9Fxd3/PPkD1rrv7MYhe8KMJj+Ht66swlplYzWeR4LB+ZVyn0uJFX9C2 7o0Fi87xcOWbqVFFocFuj8bZclc/NcU4cZnvldErgD/kXyu9kaHWj9vMRHQfh8uB2NK8 N16RG2k8sKc6znk5QXdQEIhKngKwjBgAcZFlXZ2RLbJoQx0WZJSvxtn/yAqUbJSWgKXc r/d7dz726KTUu8yBO0CeONTf2R448nSkoxk2f/dIx0KcXW7038toKn5K6UuJejoz4G3l V90Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=j9uEBJsLmcQJLHI5apf8DuJ2cH9Yej+SWhhXa8HtIRw=; b=NVfllwpK4NMO2ulErztb/ImOhT+zNxoRlBZD6qFtUD0Yc2/yHjKHOk4y50gIOL5n8n PEE/Wf1iVZoNbGL0KEcA+eS706q40GnpJz1EwRtjxIbJj8UjeWr714zvaOEp/o6m7wB5 a+KfXZrsq/+MelWCS/oqyrmf5o/T/tSsH77e26j6Vx7orgkRbKl92FMjF87ecSNM2NJF oODj696FDlWoQch5ReUc7+MoIA0dQxFXh4p4Yf7IErqNImV2TQRNbC/dLk4YMIJA47ws pMNNBwC4JC4jM+yoL2FuOOtF7guwjYYwzo4/el/GULbkS1eJ/WUw5gJaJJtmfN/s9l1n WPww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530OEgPDYBRp7mpf08QL/HqupAWf6EDq9TaLJhcTkrhbKGSg3Arw +guw0Z1T5uv1+uEmS80f3HtSpArQTps= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhckMhWvMuE5UhHYl7Kb012LbnSf79/oeYlCvUkQkZxFA5O2xOOFM9NPD4RWtfl7eInvezEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:6283:: with SMTP id f3mr551322pgv.369.1631054111649; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q21sm148695pgk.71.2021.09.07.15.35.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:35:06 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 22:35:16 -0000 On 08-Sep-21 06:06, Eliot Lear wrote: > They are related Pete.=C2=A0 The real question is whether this is advic= e that=20 > should be given by the IETF.=C2=A0 As I have access to anti-trust exper= ts, I=20 > thought I would ask one.=C2=A0 I have done, and am awaiting his respons= e. On that question, I've got email back to 2006 suggesting that we need to do this, as many other SDOs do, and I haven't seen any argument that it's= a mistake. We've just ducked the actual doing (even the education suggest= ed by the BOF in 2012 hasn't really happened). Legal advice from yet another source is a fine idea, of course, but we've= asked before, and the legal answer has always been "Yes, do it." Brian >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 07.09.21 20:04, Pete Resnick wrote: >> On 7 Sep 2021, at 4:55, Eliot Lear wrote: >> >>> This draft was posted eight days ago. Some of us require advice on=20 >>> this matter outside of this room. I'd ask that you defer any action=20 >>> until we can get that advice. I don't anticipate that taking long (a = >>> week or so?). >> >> I'm not sure I understand: You need time for outside advice on the=20 >> dispatch question? I can understand perhaps needing advice on giving=20 >> input to the content of the document, but I'm not clear why you would = >> need advice to give input to the dispatch question. >> >> pr >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Sep 7 15:54:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0AF3A0112 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P2OYrvJTa8Jn for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96F303A010D for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id 8so426160pga.7 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:54:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fGAOj1olxLqAgYu/SN+WwJ0Lts/MiEwFGn6C/9zUR4Y=; b=Tjh9BhwSFIHI4BWKJ7T6KMHvFxZyzW31EGt9zceDf0lHizib1dOG4+Lhpq1GCigHXF ZtKExDfcSLOhi0eJ98+J4qPoPqY/kDXRxppNgTbpFTNRY+ucOV1gu1ih/wfT2YPn8yz0 KopYe4GdDiTbskdEN/IaFSjE7yWtGST5SXI5boQn1jhS4vSZyMysGMguCivFQwFQo12i kAI5j/a5Uvos3XRUh4+BB0nuYVxlPeTHcd5DhY9wU3W8rVz5bHdnONvzKigQljm3ag8+ 7xrPvohkuyc53I9oGXrSz3gibXPqC3DMpjrYA9ecwHzLBKOkbP6drmRDXHcv2ytMR4I2 tsHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fGAOj1olxLqAgYu/SN+WwJ0Lts/MiEwFGn6C/9zUR4Y=; b=P7wcv401K14masqeHtaj0QfThfJGQUXOSdZzoCH5YcU6eQwt9hES3Ij79TPj6Uz+LO WAvGbEia22gD/DKxUt+SLoNsx1TodxBtw6hfuMRqfOY9S1UxSGJg8B2eOMR4UOEmyxzh pMsJprxuJNPsRkqaJ5lc8gVYhlRj77Rc0vo4Wui/czeyOO45kZOepBh0pv7VETDMk3qn fWt0IWc4CwJ/+rk9M2DOQNxd3xlbrjLUAIe56VH/5STZtlQ+2VuNEij1fKvsUnFzY9+R Uz5O39sKJMPU0OIGNtQ2CH1fd4QVWSKxOcNd5ZjTZFCm6EKLiC+7oCJWzkeeLPV6/okO FGPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sUmbpcNpfevjWAplCXlBoGNSJucTMUUQpj2UAX6jeaglcoLB1 OZof1G6X7oxmUqGpvkpCKnBTnW4AKh4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy7F6OXSg370DmzLgbpz9sV4LHrLuu+S+Gfs1FvBEOKOl9S9p5la1MEpf8h3Gb7MN8PqOLyhg== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8014:0:b029:3cd:b6f3:5dd6 with SMTP id j20-20020aa780140000b02903cdb6f35dd6mr683733pfi.39.1631055275296; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j17sm126190pfn.148.2021.09.07.15.54.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:54:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Vittorio Bertola , John Levine , gendispatch@ietf.org References: <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com> <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <1159894385.591.1631004300126@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <502111b1-38a2-5d54-322d-27b64ac494e1@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 10:54:31 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1159894385.591.1631004300126@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 22:54:41 -0000 Vittorio, On 07-Sep-21 20:45, Vittorio Bertola wrote: > > >> Il 06/09/2021 21:12 John Levine ha scritto: >> >> In general it is illegal for competitors to coordinate the way they do >> business. Stanrdards development has a carveout because there there >> is a widely understood benefit to the public for competing products >> to interoperate. That isn't limited to software; it's why the lightbulbs >> you buy at the hardware store fit into the sockets in the desk lamps you >> bought at the office supply store. > > On this, there is one very important aspect that the draft IMHO fails to address, which is any lack of inclusiveness (voluntary or involuntary) in the participants set. I think it isn't covered because it's out scope for the guidance that is lacking in the IETF. Here's something I wrote during one of the previous discussions of this topic in 2012: >>> I think the point is that when drafting RFC 2026 (and later RFC 2418), those >>> involved (including Jorge's predecessor as pro bono counsel) were very much >>> aware of anti-trust rules, and it was certainly in their minds that following >>> the RFC 2026 process would largely avoid anti-trust issues, without the need >>> to say so explicitly. Indeed BCP 9 describes what we *should* do (focus on >>> technical aspects, ensure openness and fairness, disclose IPR) but not what >>> we shouldn't do. Anti-trust advice tends to describe what we shouldn't do. >>> That's what the FAQ adds. IANAL, but as I understood it at the time, the fact that the IETF is open to all was adopted partly because of antitrust concerns. The issue is not so much inclusiveness as avoiding exclusiveness. But that's taken care of by the IETF's basic rules. What we are lacking is specific advice to participants about what *not* to do. (What FAQ, I hear you ask? It was a draft, at http://www.ietf.org/playground/antitrust-faq.html, but it's 404 and the Internet Archive doesn't seem to have a copy of it.) Regards Brian > > Standards development is not considered anticompetitive as long as all those whose businesses are impacted by the new standard have a voice in the process or can at least exploit the standard on fair terms. If a group of companies agree to design and adopt a standard that makes it harder for companies outside of that subset to compete with them, then this is potentially (I'd say definitely) an antitrust issue. > > I am not a lawyer, so I cannot say, for example, whether the current IETF policies for participation (open door, no fees etc.) are in themselves sufficient to avoid that risk, or whether specific care should be taken to involve all potentially affected industry sectors before finalizing a standard that would impact market and product opportunities. I'd still recommend that the point is addressed in the draft. > From nobody Tue Sep 7 15:59:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71863A0522 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1gigj8onRace for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B857A3A045B for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id b200so618960iof.13 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:59:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QsNIvxLNj5dovmM3Hlb63jSu9Q0Ik729FWfHXmqoh20=; b=DwmVK1h5wyxsFsSIOdQn3Xqgb6pa7oRYdl9/XfQos3uQqxuQg36UDlflpeM3oAF5J4 Gr3cHMC74Zd9M38UwUx82j9XCskWbcaWOpstfWHoJQGoDiVQ7+pm3H7iK0idXP336hM+ 3AqCh/et2HFbwICTft541qt4rPNpkseIfWp3rLxhNr6BIBuADnS5jaWg1u4wWmXB85ge LSKjDbX5lrqC51XCbZCl2b5Pa0tIqH8aZeWGER0hm8xofbZWHD/FfLHpqH2kmYTcXuwz yWHU9qic/20VWaL47gF+oeqyoFPrmPwwqMU62NeW/pgbOY7S4QU3TDrWmIgeVKk1CJ3i 6FdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QsNIvxLNj5dovmM3Hlb63jSu9Q0Ik729FWfHXmqoh20=; b=CoCxxkeAk8qP6VYvApi9nD/+WolSNmoiMpd1hNdpv1MwW/cZ51RcxbbbL432VOYZNa VKzbmspcSyGStwkG70CAbnoQFwY79JcfimMm33vQQPmOWN1lQ6XgAueODEFOu4HTvI/Z /Jf/p1zsZ+hgK817AFB7auDcFTwdde8HTjrj3+uBVnCizSkpewHuja+ooqTXcJ9zQJrp QeUNlRX47p57ReRPjfLFPUFL91+vIVfwvwjb2RUJIzrlmgMlCIW89HDxLx9nI8X9Zn02 fzQ3IJJlMjtGib+L9Gzd7eyrfcF0F35CWk0I5C9eOfqVWX5vhI2R5jOF91XUPD111Ova /3MA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530coCVNacIgKk0aC7Ll0GlsB53j95rvhhcVP4el32FuZq3PZJeH YitbH5WTOCz2CsuwNmW+GqiUW0BPB3iFYam2u+OdvpEjMUY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxIQdAwlQmClO2g1B2mB9QnaUoetiuTyywPsRU5YXIpfBoHfglwdpZnFjdXDzx4I1Hds8zQtDhMbttMwM/+W/Q= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f214:: with SMTP id q20mr521538ioh.84.1631055581301; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 15:59:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:59:30 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000884ff605cb6fb87b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 22:59:48 -0000 --000000000000884ff605cb6fb87b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:35 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 08-Sep-21 06:06, Eliot Lear wrote: > > They are related Pete. The real question is whether this is advice that > > should be given by the IETF. As I have access to anti-trust experts, I > > thought I would ask one. I have done, and am awaiting his response. > > On that question, I've got email back to 2006 suggesting that we need to > do this, as many other SDOs do, and I haven't seen any argument that it's > a mistake. Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is this: https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ That post was published just a year ago, and I sincerely doubt it was published without being reviewed by a lawyer. That post seems to say that the IETF's existing structures are sufficient, and this draft does delegate many concerns to existing BCPs. I understand that competition regulation is a bit more active than it recently has been, but this activity ebbs and flows, and the IETF has never needed anything like the recommendations in Section 5 of this draft. I think the implications of many messages are that "we're skating on thin ice", a question to be left to the lawyers, for sure. But, I'll note that it hasn't mattered for many, many years. 15? 20? I think I subscribed in 2005 or so. Maybe the ice isn't that thin. Or, something major has changed, and no one has explained what that is. thanks, Rob --000000000000884ff605cb6fb87b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:35 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08-Sep-21 06:06, Eliot Lear wrote:=
> They are related Pete.=C2=A0 The real question is whether this is advi= ce that
> should be given by the IETF.=C2=A0 As I have access to anti-trust expe= rts, I
> thought I would ask one.=C2=A0 I have done, and am awaiting his respon= se.

On that question, I've got email back to 2006 suggesting that we need t= o
do this, as many other SDOs do, and I haven't seen any argument that it= 's
a mistake.
=C2=A0
Well, at the risk of sounding = like a broken record, there is this:

=
That post was published just a year ago, and I sincerely doubt it was = published without being reviewed by a lawyer.

That= post seems to say that the IETF's existing structures are sufficient,= =C2=A0and this draft does delegate many concerns to existing BCPs. I unders= tand that competition regulation=C2=A0is a bit more active than it recently= has been, but this activity ebbs and flows, and the IETF has never needed = anything like the recommendations in Section 5 of this draft.
I think the implications of many messages are that "we'= ;re skating on thin ice", a question to be left to the lawyers, for su= re. But, I'll note that it hasn't mattered for many, many years. 15= ? 20? I think I subscribed in 2005 or so. Maybe the ice isn't that thin= . Or, something major has changed, and no one has explained what that is.

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000884ff605cb6fb87b-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 16:28:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524C43A093A for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:28:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cVWmMj1PagOh for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE63E3A0943 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id w7so489677pgk.13 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:28:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YrzHvY2RDjtIdASwpj8MDIDWU5bQabGcHdz2EJXX9Jc=; b=BiBeG9TzsPQapwgHVqz29wHLUHIysaDTEf8P0SBZY7iawqEokVEcagKkkGTrrcPKm4 YwZrtGOQnPtJHjnQBLpLKnO/qn2JmQ8+2+jgSvJQBs3A6+OJqR7pAbskSaHHeMKVaxY9 pAlmtK/YYOeAu9+oZ2sPBwu2bH1qtZux5Za4cEGtg6xZcUE6R3HGWIDbiq9F1OdertSx U5UJ98e+cYMh52ivhlgsS9jytrSLX2nNxZ7FqpB7FBAHVz+fDdKAcJjAqLmgdOe3yvVP l/UCUZlzpptAdvGEMuWYCerr5jJM3yGK5g5VWMAEzguHK9qxVk/sndZTmwtfQV5V9y7u AjrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YrzHvY2RDjtIdASwpj8MDIDWU5bQabGcHdz2EJXX9Jc=; b=iqvZZVuIdUj2Pl3JOJLJYYv7s+eZGB6DEjj5/DsrELcuthpc1hMAM0dgnWIX2x3KNS Sx0XUy1p36yMvMQ7ATXVoBet4nFp0D2C9Sjm6vUk0q1+lZbW0sww6X733xISoHNeABrb BUpcGYhq9N8egV7eJqZ8jA6ZAeOx6YGCB12H7lopoy38XbMU394sbN/+4z+hsmRFcggI sr9yjYVFqgvQ6OKnFQnz5YNzH4d8+P9ZZKp7CcQPuT64Ns+QJxSS3mibBW1q+T3L4gwL 5Qwlr6O9DJLhRcND1r7ynyayeKv1kOBg35Iype3isc3WShu4nBZvHUnlwDYveCTTLjI4 LAwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530v0FUQR5cT5T9Fqskn3T3kMPYNNjyDWjeuDJ5oOdi0pgAzp57O lg2qSvQ1A5wj7Fy7QWW8ZH8xwzUsqyk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyxnLZ9FeKpXI3R678oLMT+CgCVprKC15FBqqiWibBrldwBs0om2HirvFLPt14WBcD8zN2dMQ== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9626:0:b0:3ff:6d8d:1d25 with SMTP id r6-20020aa79626000000b003ff6d8d1d25mr815700pfg.80.1631057318508; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t9sm158724pfe.73.2021.09.07.16.28.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:28:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , GENDISPATCH List References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <92da7bcd-5e5e-f362-4e4f-c386ebc1cb3f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 11:28:33 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:28:52 -0000 On 08-Sep-21 10:59, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:35 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >=20 > On 08-Sep-21 06:06, Eliot Lear wrote: > > They are related Pete.=C2=A0 The real question is whether this is=20 advice that > > should be given by the IETF.=C2=A0 As I have access to anti-trust=20 experts, I > > thought I would ask one.=C2=A0 I have done, and am awaiting his r= esponse. >=20 > On that question, I've got email back to 2006 suggesting that we ne= ed to > do this, as many other SDOs do, and I haven't seen any argument tha= t it's > a mistake. >=20 > =C2=A0 > Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is this: > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ As I think someone else mentioned, the LLC doesn't write the rules or adv= ice about participants' behaviour. Also, "All participants in IETF activi= ties are expected to abide by applicable law" doesn't help anybody who is=20 unaware of that law. That's the gap. > That post was published just a year ago, and I sincerely doubt it was p= ublished without being reviewed by a lawyer. Certainly, to ensure that the LLC *itself* is not at risk. =20 > That post seems to say that the IETF's existing structures are sufficie= nt,=C2=A0and this draft does delegate many concerns to existing BCPs. I u= nderstand that competition regulation=C2=A0is a bit more active than it r= ecently has been, but this activity ebbs and flows, and the IETF has neve= r needed anything like the recommendations in Section 5 of this draft. Not true. I've personally seen legal advice that we *do* need something l= ike this going back 15 years. In a sense the 2012 BOF conclusion that it'= s an educational issue was correct, but we haven't even done that. =20 > I think the implications of many messages are that "we're skating on th= in ice", a question to be left to the lawyers, for sure. But, I'll note t= hat it hasn't mattered for many, many years. 15? 20? I think I subscribed=20 in 2005 or so. Maybe the ice isn't that thin. Or, something major has cha= nged, and no one has explained what that is. Maybe we've been lucky so far? Brian From nobody Tue Sep 7 16:41:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B99B3A0A35 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A576iagOUyM1 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99CD83A0A2E for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id b10so754130ioq.9 for ; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BsP9xug1AZE/JnDgIAYYBi5nCrDrXa+bAj7BawWujT8=; b=KzmNJHhKHiqBJ2OnKy6tcRW4HVxUOk0Ya6iXU7byKREckAF7L+TZCbv+ysQvzOa0Ff f3bAk/HPAzCaSfHTQHKjk8JbI25gNx0Q3yhgKSiXrMQtF9dGbFJoAikS5LHsEPbf3gn/ 8aBZ+PaeVKici2ei60T1L72iJPoMkkxdtvTJyayQKeYI6XLm/lXtisH8SJqgt/0QzrHX uWbgu/IKrUoYR9igKtxrwBjsVvpKfXrEqLnEwQCLR+vG6XNPEsz441aw5idHSFHNAGut HQ6EX3/QMxeXO4LhotOwO5/1e0wdUUc4W+/NLeInjk1mFEHsin++UjO1h/13zPapaQSt WCzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BsP9xug1AZE/JnDgIAYYBi5nCrDrXa+bAj7BawWujT8=; b=Wmn/dkOe2ZCeE8ReT/4qjp+F70F4NoMRInWP4wJxYQncpk+qciTeqK1IgGJ768GNVG u/LIgvKuikDie9Rc7QdoSODvfQ81mB+hovx9IJx3eOYyy746liAWlNW6QHcrZIHkmoQh AajjdJejnINc2n+98+U7+/X8yS3x7AtQjYTpIgcqnmvfjIT7jFNXLQIkUSEbbmt4jdJK Cv/2StIAZMVojGj1rRm8XLcbEFr3wY3d+UxpXmfOBKIgO08kfJD7LRIq+MpdG6NTPdWp S7mxqNW6eitGy67XtmB/z/0PgGa/icOMl6ntoNM97OT2Db5bxkGR7cOtowgPfvOARyC5 I3+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5309BZLxkpA5yarm3Vg3qv9x5Kl/ihLh8+QKHtpPzeFDCzxD4MQe af+2p/0e2IAshLvdVsRBmV2b17S0xgOM1J29Ve7GpQ0f1AQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw8HLGi+J8bYdjWafbrZ7S00T3DN3vZSC3L26dXoSjlVTwhKZGjJvuLwvARvYPfJkJxq+4cnF0VhPecWr0XNIE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:1301:: with SMTP id r1mr859883jad.32.1631058100031; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:41:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> <92da7bcd-5e5e-f362-4e4f-c386ebc1cb3f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <92da7bcd-5e5e-f362-4e4f-c386ebc1cb3f@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 16:41:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Eliot Lear , Pete Resnick , GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9173c05cb704e52" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:41:46 -0000 --000000000000a9173c05cb704e52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:28 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 08-Sep-21 10:59, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:35 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > On 08-Sep-21 06:06, Eliot Lear wrote: > > > They are related Pete. The real question is whether this is > advice that > > > should be given by the IETF. As I have access to anti-trust > experts, I > > > thought I would ask one. I have done, and am awaiting his > response. > > > > On that question, I've got email back to 2006 suggesting that we > need to > > do this, as many other SDOs do, and I haven't seen any argument that > it's > > a mistake. > > > > > > Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is this: > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ < > https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/> > > As I think someone else mentioned, the LLC doesn't write the rules or > advice about participants' behaviour. Also, "All participants in IETF > activities are expected to abide by applicable law" doesn't help anybody > who is > unaware of that law. That's the gap. > Summarizing "applicable law" in a worldwide context seems like a difficult task to me, so I agree that the statement is probably not perfect. But, the draft we're discussing here contains a similar clause: "All IETF participants must behave lawfully when engaged in IETF activities, including by following applicable antitrust laws." > > I think the implications of many messages are that "we're skating on > thin ice", a question to be left to the lawyers, for sure. But, I'll note > that it hasn't mattered for many, many years. 15? 20? I think I subscribed > in 2005 or so. Maybe the ice isn't that thin. Or, something major has > changed, and no one has explained what that is. > > Maybe we've been lucky so far? > I think that's possible--but I've just been asking /why/ that might be. thanks, Rob --000000000000a9173c05cb704e52 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:28 PM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08-Sep-21 10:59, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:35 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com= <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 08-Sep-21 06:06, Eliot Lear wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> They are related Pete.=C2=A0 The real question= is whether this is
advice that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> should be given by the IETF.=C2=A0 As I have a= ccess to anti-trust
experts, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> thought I would ask one.=C2=A0 I have done, an= d am awaiting his response.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On that question, I've got email back to 2006 s= uggesting that we need to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do this, as many other SDOs do, and I haven't s= een any argument that it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a mistake.
>
> =C2=A0
> Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is this:
> https://www.ietf.org/blog/i= etf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/ <https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-= law-issues/>

As I think someone else mentioned, the LLC doesn't write the rules or a= dvice about participants' behaviour. Also, "All participants in IE= TF activities are expected to abide by applicable law" doesn't hel= p anybody who is
unaware of that law. That's the gap.

Summarizing "applicable law" in a worldwide context seems like = a difficult task to me, so I agree that the statement is probably not perfe= ct.

But, the draft we're discussing here conta= ins a similar clause: "All IETF participants must behave lawfully when= engaged in IETF activities, including by following applicable antitrust la= ws."

=C2=A0
> I think the implications of many messages are that "we're ska= ting on thin ice", a question to be left to the lawyers, for sure. But= , I'll note that it hasn't mattered for many, many years. 15? 20? I= think I subscribed
in 2005 or so. Maybe the ice isn't that thin. Or, something major has c= hanged, and no one has explained what that is.

Maybe we've been lucky so far?

I th= ink that's possible--but I've just been asking /why/ that might be.=

thanks,
Rob

= =C2=A0
--000000000000a9173c05cb704e52-- From nobody Tue Sep 7 17:21:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A7B3A0D85 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UDrsuBsqEtG0 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A6AA3A0D86 for ; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4H42qW4fn7z1nrxM; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1631060471; bh=cboj32tFJB4jV052mq1ToJ5gTHDukdOv3hpIwCKHjV8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=hDTqtjNM0Tx9tUreaBbZIPopw1Z/cqU5Kz96LZ0C5qG5uMzp1D3T/2lRfgq86OgFL AkUNIiWwACpDcU5XyXaMdzW9Avy1kf6LbA0sP3Ru1hE3AErX0hqjDVnJi0G0YXbilN 7W3A/wqFYyNnRCavhdttb2QcOohb9v8nUSkeX6F4= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.23.64] (50-233-136-230-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.233.136.230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4H42qW0tbYz1nwDj; Tue, 7 Sep 2021 17:21:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5c0028a3-ad6f-afe9-b7e4-0158ca114a51@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2021 20:21:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 00:21:18 -0000 That sounds right to me. With regard to where to discuss this, while I personally would prefer to use gendispatch, if folks want another email list, we presumably could revive the old antitrust-policy list (without making it a working group) for discussion venue in support of the AD sponsorship. Yours, Joel On 9/7/2021 1:38 AM, Pete Resnick wrote: > On 6 Sep 2021, at 21:01, Rob Sayre wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 6:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >>> Great. BTW for the dispatch question, I agree that AD-sponsored is >>> the way to go here. >> >>  I think Mark's interpretation makes sense, from my perspective. > > I have not yet consulted with my co-chair, so I'm not concluding the > dispatch discussion itself, but I believe I also heard in the discussion > "AD-sponsored is the way to go, with advice to the AD that discussion of > some issues is still required, perhaps before Last Call, and therefore a > forum of discussion should be identified." You should probably speak up > if I didn't get that right. > > pr > From nobody Wed Sep 8 06:04:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26DE3A27A6 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 06:04:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcast.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mJD2musDZwcp for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 06:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com (mx0a-00143702.pphosted.com [148.163.145.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7041F3A27A4 for ; 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Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:03:46 +0000 From: "Livingood, Jason" To: Rob Sayre , Brian E Carpenter CC: Pete Resnick , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHXoRAZlmQd7u0ZFE6gNy9vP03uqquS4pUAgAAOsACAABvjAIAAJ22AgAAFtoCAACPcAIAAB2cAgAAIR4CAADxvgIAAUFGAgABcJgCAACFggIAADquAgAAFgACAAAPxgIAAC/IAgABEy4CAAAc6gIAAA2KAgADPswCAAATeAIAAcEyAgAAlXgCAAQ53AIAAMD2AgAA4EACAAAhJgIAAAHKAgAABDwCAADyqAIAAR/AAgACIdwCAAACHgIAASyUAgAAG0QCAAKjTgA== Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:03:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 authentication-results: gmail.com; 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Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1CFSNqWwv7od; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F503A2BC1; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.51.190]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 188FME6C022563; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:22:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1631114544; x=1631200944; i=@elandsys.com; bh=vrLe2hu7MxnkPE+BThBcfPEKgZXAi+LDMtVDqtTNbWw=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=4Vrzrh/iLLzrBypsT6ssTtaZLEAgnku1UjRkQVi/Xx31XEMAH7Ss6Pu0MjQ54Pc4T DNmZqG5Gcc3n/vmEwM+awbWCE2wS8sJBPWHoDSyxD/dTyWrqQZKAoCmPIUDSkzJHe4 GZFD9e0h4xLWFnfGOxzrTHxVfNZP9wekwC8PxjK8= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20210908081812.139851e8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:21:25 -0700 To: "Livingood, Jason" , gendispatch@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:22:36 -0000 Hi Jason, At 06:03 AM 08-09-2021, Livingood, Jason wrote: >[JL] Please see Section 5 of the LLC's 12 August 2021 meeting >minutes at >https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/2021-08-12-llc-board-minutes.pdf. >We had counsel on the call as well for that discussion. My >impression is that the external legal environment continues to >evolve and that companies that current participate in the IETF may >face barriers to continuing to do so in the future, absent a more >concrete anti-trust document. Thank you for providing some context. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Wed Sep 8 08:56:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F73C3A2D22 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79vLWOj_Wg-E for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83D993A2CE8 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id v16so2802690ilo.10 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:52:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Fr5ICCCuV+vu4YJd1917rZpJ38N4jwcl5sCLOV031bs=; b=qEPapyPENZAVlH1BSNSjaPzPdYCr2AeFdVuwGr/NSQrN8TpIP53mTAAzfjiJCsTzUg 6CK+RygKHCs7v2CyukOOydzIYy28h1Uqs/Wf884KqDHnX6AlQ1XYpSdm1CoIBrMaDtPy Qxoo8/qFj+JR+z0fPo/iXxYi6oM8+I8H3vOFuGY0zJtEYCt1fRZnKd7f0023lURZHDvf hRURv+uopjys5Ittw87bPA+mQunMk09n9px5bp1eH6z/8r9BwQRuaXorehNydTthb3gr gQO0LdV/w7w/CW949GdTfsEsx8uKQwByBBq9r8sDezpzQZarK/Jqw46laT1/XpgT8Cih VSSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Fr5ICCCuV+vu4YJd1917rZpJ38N4jwcl5sCLOV031bs=; b=u7l4pCgM6va7X1Aogz4FQ6/aUu5+zKUN8poKx9zFnFI1u2Of5987X01hxmlLo+M/0Y kH+0hLovZG8HjzDGjimZDUZ1MNQewYND5bRJhtkcFv/TcR4eIqyxM4gRsJuOBGu6uyfT KfeAEBpyHhRMO4ShphPSIk043cOphJ4rRLz+q9JeFf5nwHDATuAARGASVq/qJZsxsM9W WJaadg3TVyDNjYDRF46i/r/p8SAmU9yBfUtcKXYaFgq0J0GVDHjuvwJ0CN/WhmKWdwQV 5PjPrWojQfzUxieK4umUFGcBg4vbCJAdxzUdrSuuKWE1jNaGJHXRgz0JHw7jeey0hqh+ ePwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532P7TZcTSAEkqGh1LU9PK9i9JWScfjE6I1Dl05lPthSmeatHuP1 r4vjjBOYvRSN/Mdu5k54SdVOWihCUnrOPAl6cc4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwrcEx8604VtiLB1PN4xFvI8DcKDIMiTs9Lu8rKWWCK4B+qmpS4x+YLRib3LTX0Wbyc3rNnp+JXJ2KPsP7ZECI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4406:: with SMTP id r6mr414653ila.88.1631116353508; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:52:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> <6d2317d0-08f2-1515-eb01-56486e45dcaa@lear.ch> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 08:52:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Livingood, Jason" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Pete Resnick , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d69b3505cb7dde3a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:52:47 -0000 --000000000000d69b3505cb7dde3a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:04 AM Livingood, Jason wrote: > > [JL] Please see Section 5 of the LLC's 12 August 2021 meeting minutes at > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/2021-08-12-llc-board-minutes.pdf. > Well, that just says this document is needed due to "growing concern in the community". Fine. I don't think it's needed (and I seem to be one of the only people that reads any of these documents), but most of what's in it is true. Those minutes also make it clear that the document is meant for the "Note Well" page. I agree with Mark that the way the "Recommended Behaviors" section is currently phrased will be misused, and additionally think that some of the recommendations might be incorrect in some important contexts. The list is too terse to guide behavior, but it will be difficult to get more specific, so my suggested edits are an improvement. thanks, Rob --000000000000d69b3505cb7dde3a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 6:04 AM Livingood,= Jason <Jason_Livingood@c= omcast.com> wrote:

[JL] Please see Section 5 of the LLC's 12 August 2021 meeting minutes a= t https://www.ietf.org/media/do= cuments/2021-08-12-llc-board-minutes.pdf.=C2=A0
Well, that just says this document is needed due to "grow= ing concern in the community". Fine. I don't think it's needed= (and I seem to be one of the only people that reads any of these documents= ), but most of what's in it is true. Those minutes also make it clear t= hat the document is meant for the "Note Well" page.
I agree with Mark that the way the "Recommended Behaviors&= quot; section is currently phrased will be misused, and additionally think = that some of the recommendations might be incorrect in some important conte= xts. The list is too terse to guide behavior, but it will be difficult to g= et more specific, so my suggested edits are an improvement.

<= /div>
thanks,
Rob
--000000000000d69b3505cb7dde3a-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 13:28:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7F73A36E5 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TTkPqzYBBn-C for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f48.google.com (mail-vs1-f48.google.com [209.85.217.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E135F3A36E0 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f48.google.com with SMTP id u1so3185104vsq.10 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:28:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tThGmsLKNnCWKkzKasADT1QCPyD3YHjaiEhKUqQh0ic=; b=adffgb58JEE8fUXbFdVTpC/gRdbSwYofxDFvygOSWtVBT4GzxuA0zNoOafuURsaKIL TJta9b44J981/aWiIqv5JrpIUHFDOnTsrygg4Ki4fvjeAwMlnUrr64hJKiZnxL9HBhLs BJA/4gNnf3sjhD537ysIHaEN8qNFiFnLNGq/PCooSS9Q+dWY19EOGk8YaQCWgR6BrtPd /jmTkyVCjq3e1DQM/LKR9lkDhFhSBqonWcs4XgmKZY1SXvRmp2K0fcJQh961vFrKGrdk OHf4CXIJfl1SRZvQhNrrGJHPtV2dUcW8oNY0Gq3ZKHwCf+D/k8lrOKV+/0bvDxQP9y7W UNvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530e2dpRuCZ2rKnWWmJB0N8uadngQYyU2piWZrEXjnR/Y6lJnAMT lKFGSYfiDxNqvRhq13ULGRstjvG0QhfPuAXxEFXD+9UO39s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwOs/odoyixoeYI4fLG2bZsgfVCY5bxUjqOnFuYn704oljgILUUSI+NMEscgogVsRzYDczHWC3vg8Uw4G3wyog= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ee19:: with SMTP id f25mr4106728vsp.30.1631132882775; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:28:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:27:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 20:28:10 -0000 -- Section 4.3 -- The IESG is composed of the IETF Area Directors and the IETF Chair, who also chairs the IESG and is the Area Director for the General Area. All members of the IESG are nominated by a nominations committee (colloquially, NomCom), and are approved by the IAB. See [NOMCOM] for a detailed description of the Nomcom procedures. The document in general is inconsistent in how it handles this stuff. For example, Section 4.4 says, "The IETF Chair is an ex-officio member of the board.", but does not say that the IRTF Chair is also, and 4.3 does not mention that the IAB Chair is also an ex-officio member of the IESG. In 4.3 and 4.4, "and are approved by" should say, "and are confirmed by", as that's the term that's used in the BCPs. Sections 4.8 and 4.9 don't try to talk about how the members (of the Trust and the LLC Board) are selected or confirmed, and simply refer to the BCPs. It's probably best if 4.3 and 4.4 follow that as well (making my previous paragraph moot). Section 4.8 should also include trademarks as something the Trust deals with. The Internet Society seems to have consolidated its branding to the full name and seems not to use "ISOC" these days, even to the point of redirecting to . Given the few mentions that there are, we should probably use "the Internet Society" throughout, and just not say "ISOC" at all (though I think it's fine to use "[ISOC]" for the reference citation). In Section 4.7 you have a typo: ISRG In Section 4.9 you have a typo: rseponsible -- Barry From nobody Wed Sep 8 13:41:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322AA3A3756; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCWqvnWVFmI7; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f43.google.com (mail-vs1-f43.google.com [209.85.217.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119D53A374F; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f43.google.com with SMTP id f6so3222483vsr.3; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A5Li+BiDccTljLzqgsf7tN/6mHmI6K1twaNacdH/OJw=; b=i5afT/CVw61PQ/LXUDV6xngVmiahLlOqbNI0iJezTtUc/YicG2pJ0zwFqmt2FhTZPy hB5Cyly/UffAHTgbKYefQppVUBDvZzklrXnZVCnQQXmIRo9VNIy6TtPg2GvCBWywuM4m a0yHJJf8En0cF0aqWdYuac1bfEouq1c+gMf47SETCoLYLbEK7vsiRVb6IqRScKirEJl1 Yh5UnrE+MTByc1/dvOoylTR0ClnGXfevwgFckdLYSwT2N5Uy7n+qRY6kAtsnETQnvzl/ l5eJTgBsdt1iWd37drBHME0B5GQFnD/IN903l1wuSlasFWL86ZYIqNiO0TeCSY50ZFFn nD1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+w0niNIQkSSSe1aBrRgWJtXQOT60fx90MjGI7JNowOoFmfAK7 Ngfw1RgV1OIW9r6Q7mQTMNYrX+SMKuNEssB/zNFdOyr7xk0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzeBOzqevSnuj4i9AkSyX5OhMlTsi2WDoEL/MHuEQSyYof4dBz01oTcWshC/ra2PRRu7O67LplfDknqzsG/y5Y= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ee19:: with SMTP id f25mr4134182vsp.30.1631133684730; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:41:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:41:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 20:41:33 -0000 * Last Call discussions of proposed protocol actions now take place on the IETF Last Calls mailing list [LAST-CALLS]. Document actions also, not just protocol actions. Apart from appointing SAAs, the IETF Chair should divorce themselves from the day-to-day operation and management of the SAA team. I find "divorce themselves" to be an odd phrase, and suggest instead, "the IETF Chair should stay away from the". Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to change that process. -- Barry On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 8:07 AM wrote: > > > A new version (-04) has been submitted for draft-eggert-bcp45bis: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.html > > > The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ > > Diff from previous version: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04 > > IETF Secretariat. > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Wed Sep 8 13:41:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 9F6F73A3757; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322AA3A3756; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCWqvnWVFmI7; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f43.google.com (mail-vs1-f43.google.com [209.85.217.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119D53A374F; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f43.google.com with SMTP id f6so3222483vsr.3; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A5Li+BiDccTljLzqgsf7tN/6mHmI6K1twaNacdH/OJw=; b=i5afT/CVw61PQ/LXUDV6xngVmiahLlOqbNI0iJezTtUc/YicG2pJ0zwFqmt2FhTZPy hB5Cyly/UffAHTgbKYefQppVUBDvZzklrXnZVCnQQXmIRo9VNIy6TtPg2GvCBWywuM4m a0yHJJf8En0cF0aqWdYuac1bfEouq1c+gMf47SETCoLYLbEK7vsiRVb6IqRScKirEJl1 Yh5UnrE+MTByc1/dvOoylTR0ClnGXfevwgFckdLYSwT2N5Uy7n+qRY6kAtsnETQnvzl/ l5eJTgBsdt1iWd37drBHME0B5GQFnD/IN903l1wuSlasFWL86ZYIqNiO0TeCSY50ZFFn nD1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+w0niNIQkSSSe1aBrRgWJtXQOT60fx90MjGI7JNowOoFmfAK7 Ngfw1RgV1OIW9r6Q7mQTMNYrX+SMKuNEssB/zNFdOyr7xk0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzeBOzqevSnuj4i9AkSyX5OhMlTsi2WDoEL/MHuEQSyYof4dBz01oTcWshC/ra2PRRu7O67LplfDknqzsG/y5Y= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ee19:: with SMTP id f25mr4134182vsp.30.1631133684730; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:41:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:41:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210908204133.9F6F73A3757@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 20:41:34 -0000 * Last Call discussions of proposed protocol actions now take place on the IETF Last Calls mailing list [LAST-CALLS]. Document actions also, not just protocol actions. Apart from appointing SAAs, the IETF Chair should divorce themselves from the day-to-day operation and management of the SAA team. I find "divorce themselves" to be an odd phrase, and suggest instead, "the IETF Chair should stay away from the". Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to change that process. -- Barry On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 8:07 AM wrote: > > > A new version (-04) has been submitted for draft-eggert-bcp45bis: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.html > > > The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ > > Diff from previous version: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04 > > IETF Secretariat. > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Wed Sep 8 13:43:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 979663A376A for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khGm-0t9N0bF for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C6963A3769 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id y18so5060381ioc.1 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ynKiFMk3CdpMzNS3bcaG3GR6gR2Yyjc6WlvbtVZMVVg=; b=NqA/RtarNTIQBQ+J3S+3wF5jDxsa+suMoo0IdYL+LH/17RF1tntnh+32HdDkB6d8a4 YMQdFMjjuyVHGjDYEnQ4HCvsAdI3yKE2f/w5noVzuiJRefm5ptvhqfAH9ZSeX8xGUGx/ IN7C7mdthAQjPT+Kv0g5Fh3C2eY82Ddp3nEcHMkhf7H7zLX/Q02twBJAyswFjF/OgPiY KgJ531HJy+0xmc098wYa97Jy8zrDIdsEE+uT4+e+4/n4U+Sq2+wcT/2v2ubk5jdn8CMc XvVFDVMBfw549lJyP5AaYH4tzFexsFB+oQ/bL9E9ktKGFU9UXoqZKvGsOjfU7FW6WPXt AYsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ynKiFMk3CdpMzNS3bcaG3GR6gR2Yyjc6WlvbtVZMVVg=; b=TFO71pAAKLbTduwro4xQWinx0Ur2O+pMQmOPAoMbCmpmOdDYjj2z/5PqmnTFxRfq73 JDxokR2EcNSsE24mDUUiBGIek05s4f2GHaGJ4eMpsxrmnfH4l5x6KQsvrO5zDETXcYOT Q99zk2hnn4kREQZlSXhzKsEnOntEWyOHBd+XMNB8Z7aQ7Gheu8WxEw2kbD7abFsYoKJX b+SvptT+crY9biyk5/c3uoi3Uwb5bBvMfnXeikqzub/q6CXzZcw119Xc6GCNmPSyEFxJ FUzGZKip+vPZvqawjXOqK6pPaVtYDh00g52xDXdlae4X17+PeK963J8C4tpRIjWeGzpR /UfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ivUOTLyweP9GqD3M0QQn+AeCvv6+U/iLuRaish5FcOarfhiDz OKAVLH1LMMdNZOSeBWqFlJqueRPzDTuMqmWJ3FewT3Vf X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwuR1rMuj79WM4L7FTkbyDy5AveY9IEgkYpVfHR4t17nChqWuWe6g1vfztHMXble8KJ4+OnE+Z/YQnXXGDsd1U= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:3e84:: with SMTP id l126mr108992ioa.151.1631133779549; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:42:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 13:42:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Barry Leiba Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082dfe005cb81ed90" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 20:43:08 -0000 --00000000000082dfe005cb81ed90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 1:28 PM Barry Leiba wrote: > -- Section 4.3 -- > > The IESG is composed of the > IETF Area Directors and the IETF Chair, who also chairs the IESG and > is the Area Director for the General Area. > > All members of the IESG are nominated by a nominations committee > (colloquially, NomCom), and are approved by the IAB. See [NOMCOM] > for a detailed description of the Nomcom procedures. > > The document in general is inconsistent in how it handles this stuff. > For example, Section 4.4 says, "The IETF Chair is an ex-officio member > of the board.", but does not say that the IRTF Chair is also, and 4.3 > does not mention that the IAB Chair is also an ex-officio member of > the IESG. > I think Barry's message is well-reasoned and correct to the extent I understand all of the various roles, but I wonder if corrections to Rich's document are the best way to move forward. By writing it all down, Rich seems to have shown that some of these relationships are absurdly complex. I'm not saying that was the intent. Sometimes these things only become evident after you try to document them. Nevertheless, I support publishing the document as accurate documentation, but I tend to view it as a problem statement. thanks, Rob --00000000000082dfe005cb81ed90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 1:28 PM Barry Leib= a <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
-- Section 4.3 --

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IESG is composed of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Area Directors and the IETF Chair, who also chairs the IE= SG and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0is the Area Director for the General Area.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0All members of the IESG are nominated by a nominations committ= ee
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(colloquially, NomCom), and are approved by the IAB.=C2=A0 See= [NOMCOM]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for a detailed description of the Nomcom procedures.

The document in general is inconsistent in how it handles this stuff.
For example, Section 4.4 says, "The IETF Chair is an ex-officio member=
of the board.", but does not say that the IRTF Chair is also, and 4.3<= br> does not mention that the IAB Chair is also an ex-officio member of
the IESG.




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([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fy2sm23056pjb.11.2021.09.08.13.59.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Sep 2021 13:59:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre , Barry Leiba Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" , "Salz, Rich" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 08:59:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 20:59:58 -0000 On 09-Sep-21 08:42, Rob Sayre wrote: ... > By writing it all down, Rich seems to have shown that some of these relationships are absurdly complex. I'm not saying that was the intent. Sometimes these things only become evident after you try to document them. They are complex as a result of history, but trying to straighten out a plate of spaghetti is generally held to be impossible. We have a plate of our own spaghetti to sort out first: https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/informal/ Brian From nobody Wed Sep 8 15:08:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B7B3A0A63 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBRj5JO3p5eo for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D5C13A0A5F for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:08:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=7QrYjiSwtPD5xPyLw0lRdN5wFD9Z28rv+7o+QhfsDjk=; b=Iz9JepS2D57O4aA71wHSQPkG9u OnHJsbfPy7erB56eq1INY1g1gmD6KdUD+cLNButgNz5n3PhbYaSBL0B7y9u9zqqiCSQC8BQrrw6ZP VsijltIdjS/c6YIfkiUG1fhD6eyZV0oKY6QfW0yqwkYfNoVVBJ/wGeK8860W86TsUahn1uaz1BnDO 26dZwCxemokZe5aWVBd+Qh2YJ1ezo2/0FiUMnPkB4Qaf7HWyT+j1TScFN0piSBQ7vn5hXe/Ma7xW6 mMsVOPK2dDdlv1gZJP/vhO8gm0Rv61csFm6DPl83QI8EilZd6xQRuarKljOoLuljrppDti2s28HiI vRs9NSJg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=35408 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mO5kJ-0007JU-TF; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:08:44 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <61847102-F995-431C-9F01-91583AD6BA07@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_97BCBB62-A6BB-4EE2-8DCA-BC0FDB9816C4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:08:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: <163069758337.6471.7554165463937904967@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: rsalz@akamai.com References: <163069758337.6471.7554165463937904967@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 22:08:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_97BCBB62-A6BB-4EE2-8DCA-BC0FDB9816C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Thanks for preparing this, it=E2=80=99s important to bring the material = up-to-date.=20 I have some comments about the material on the IRTF in section 4.7.=20 I agree that the IRTF follows some of the IETF policies and procedures, = but it also diverges from IETF procedures in some significant ways. = Saying that it =E2=80=9Cgenerally follows=E2=80=9D those procedures may = give the wrong expectation. The first paragraph of section 4.7 also states that: "If an IRTF = activity generates a specification that is sufficiently stable to be = considered for Internet standardization, the specification is processed = through the IETF using the rules in this document=E2=80=9D. This is not = inaccurate, but perhaps over-emphasises the possibility that an IRTF = group will produce a specification suitable for standardisation. IRTF = outputs are sometimes experimental protocol specifications, but = they=E2=80=99re also often research papers. Section 4.7 continues with: "A Working Group may ask an IRTF Research = Group for advice or other input=E2=80=9D. This is correct, but it might = be worth emphasising that such advice or input has no special status in = IETF. Finally, section 4.7 concludes: " Details of the organization and = operation of the IRTF, the ISRG, and its Research Groups may be found in = [IRTF]=E2=80=9D. Aside from the typo (ISRG should be IRSG), this implies = that the reader knows what is the IRSG but that=E2=80=99s not mentioned = in this draft. Given this, I suggest that section 4.7 of this draft could possibly be = rephrased as follows (borrowing a lot of text from RFC 2014): The IRTF focuses on longer term research issues related to the Internet while the parallel organization, the=20 Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), focuses on the shorter term issues of engineering and standards making. The products of IRTF research groups are typically research results that are published in scholarly conferences and journals. Research groups also sometimes develop experimental protocols or technologies that may be suitable for possible standardisation in IETF. Similarly, IETF working groups sometimes ask research groups for advice or other input.=20 Contributions from research groups, however, carry no more=20 weight than other community input, and go through the same standards setting process as any other proposal.=20 The IRTF is managed by the IRTF Chair in consultation with the Internet Research Steering Group (IRSG). The IRSG membership includes the IRTF Chair, the chairs of the various Research Group and possibly other individuals ("members at large") from the=20 research community. Details of the organization and operation=20 of the IRTF, the ISRG, and its Research Groups may be found in [RFC 2014], [RFC 4440], [RFC 7418], [RFC 7827]. Cheers, Colin > On 3 Sep 2021, at 20:33, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >=20 >=20 > Title : Entitities Involved in the IETF Standards = Process > Author : Rich Salz > Filename : draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2021-09-03 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes the individuals and organizations involved = in > the IETF standards process as described in [IETFPROCS]. It includes > brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role they place > in the standards process. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/ >=20 > There is also an HTML version available at: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.html >=20 >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_97BCBB62-A6BB-4EE2-8DCA-BC0FDB9816C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

Thanks = for preparing this, it=E2=80=99s important to bring the material = up-to-date. 

I have some comments about the material on the IRTF in = section 4.7. 

I agree that the IRTF follows some of the IETF policies and procedures, but = it also diverges from IETF procedures in some significant ways. Saying = that it =E2=80=9Cgenerally follows=E2=80=9D those procedures may give = the wrong expectation.

The first paragraph of section 4.7 also states that: "If an = IRTF activity generates a specification that is sufficiently stable to = be considered for Internet standardization, the specification is = processed through the IETF using the rules in this document=E2=80=9D. = This is not inaccurate, but perhaps over-emphasises the possibility that = an IRTF group will produce a specification suitable for standardisation. = IRTF outputs are sometimes experimental protocol specifications, but = they=E2=80=99re also often research papers.

Section 4.7 continues with: "A Working = Group may ask an IRTF Research Group for advice or other input=E2=80=9D. = This is correct, but it might be worth emphasising that such advice or = input has no special status in IETF.

Finally, section 4.7 concludes: " = Details of the organization and operation of the IRTF, the ISRG, and its = Research Groups may be found in [IRTF]=E2=80=9D. Aside from the typo = (ISRG should be IRSG), this implies that the reader knows what is the = IRSG but that=E2=80=99s not mentioned in this draft.

Given this, I suggest = that section 4.7 of this draft could possibly be rephrased as follows = (borrowing a lot of text from RFC 2014):

   The IRTF focuses on longer term research issues = related
   to = the Internet while the parallel organization, = the 
   Internet Engineering Task = Force (IETF), focuses on the
  =  shorter term issues of engineering and standards = making.

   The products of IRTF research groups are = typically research
   results that are published in scholarly = conferences and
  =  journals. Research groups also sometimes develop = experimental
  =  protocols or technologies that may be suitable for = possible
  =  standardisation in IETF. Similarly, IETF working = groups
  =  sometimes ask research groups for advice or other = input. 
  =  Contributions from research groups, = however, carry no more 
  =  weight than other community input, and go through = the same
   standards setting process = as any other proposal. 

   The IRTF is managed by the =
IRTF Chair in consultation with the
   Internet Research Steering Group (IRSG).  The IRSG membership
   includes the IRTF Chair, the chairs of the various Research =
Group
   and possibly other individuals =
("members at large") from the 
   research community. Details of the organization and =
operation 
   of the IRTF, the ISRG, =
and its Research Groups may be found =
in
   [RFC 2014], [RFC 4440], [RFC 7418], [RFC =
7827].

Cheers,
Colin




On 3 Sep 2021, at 20:33, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line = Internet-Drafts directories.


=        Title =           : Entitities = Involved in the IETF Standards Process
=        Author =          : Rich Salz
= Filename        : = draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt
Pages =           : 10
= Date =            : = 2021-09-03

Abstract:
=   This document describes the individuals and organizations = involved in
  the IETF standards process as = described in [IETFPROCS].  It includes
=   brief descriptions of the entities involved, and the role = they place
  in the standards process.


The IETF datatracker status = page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rsalz-2028bis/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.html


Internet-Drafts are also = available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: = http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or = ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/




= --Apple-Mail=_97BCBB62-A6BB-4EE2-8DCA-BC0FDB9816C4-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 15:11:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926303A0AA6 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:11:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h-p6AYNjcYFZ for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B78963A0A98 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id v16so3929238ilo.10 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:11:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8jSHe67cItcC/qiLdEO1A5HDlBbSO2R2EiAD4xIxGMA=; b=gS80MskGGFkOy7UXhV1JCQJSo6i7jp0atmsRomEd1EokdYnbW8EAlRXB9NrYe7InGo Xb7SufvMRMGQfh2RqSz3tz5d4TpUZLg/CaJaX01EyBMlGh3g9iwLTZQWz6F+ILTA9KNI 6jbhqG6ND4o66uzFvg61M3CGeG1RSGIZqCZXZXIIIZUZqaRwLm8zf4fUjP0bmPfnTR61 qaVuDnnoftqdikSkSF1zqmYJ7/dO0nJXeBeWydx9NpqMcfnjhc0q4vuAyy3IZqFr3ZXP mbbCgoKWt8zp0alTQ9H0g1XmFogf/qI2ZOumyZV0yHUZthUXeP98bEfUf3W4U8P/AD+R agKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8jSHe67cItcC/qiLdEO1A5HDlBbSO2R2EiAD4xIxGMA=; b=WzPJrE67sd/E9N6XBzkyCfPjVD3H1kC9c1UlKP3hI/WjaVAZdOswoiA8l6AJQ3QC/j 6n8K1jHwS3bUkrDgnaGTz6YiNxbOy+8epQ71Be2hd3TxQNl40oOgaoxfElMr3hPzyCfH rfwtciY1UnEmzIac01WA5kJ7Ib18e999vg0PhYK+bI8sH1XnLSMpvvOezRTm9f1BAyxn 6VtQeTgtH50szRaRA5mCONbJjd2zcXKk/gTUDB2sh0/q0/3fNeqscPT/EKM8Ugwtdvds Nml5xjS8yaqYYW5PizEY+l0faYjtTj95arJFL1Ddk7DJ1qDDfd7uM1nwWhYdxLZ/oe4i DHQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5331X1rvcMYgFplN1/L4j3sDJD5YFQ+Rcw+j4e9NHuyh+wFF7bKt efBKiIwRquSQmrD6hUN5KUyaTDh3X61Q5f+q5Mk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYOghgotvh4yguzLp6JPZBAtCRNnINbTtQsS6Om8U2cuel5EU61zj+cJ74mcA6Rwq/OgsI39VOG39j+AMJuTE= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4406:: with SMTP id r6mr369975ila.88.1631139084036; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:11:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 15:11:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Livingood, Jason" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Pete Resnick , GENDISPATCH List , Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aef27d05cb832955" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 22:11:30 -0000 --000000000000aef27d05cb832955 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM Livingood, Jason wrote: > > Well, that just says this document is needed due to "growing concern in > the community". Fine. I don't think it's needed (and I seem to be one of > the only people that reads any of these documents), but most of what's in > it is true. > > This is IMO one of those issues where IETF community consensus needs to be > developed and show us a path forward. My understanding of the process as it > stands now (and Lars can correct me) is GenDispatch will either dispatch it > to a particular area or WG or to do it in the Gen Area (or take no action I > suppose). > That sounds right to me. I think if people read the relevant documents, including the existing BCPs linked by the draft, and the IETF LLC statement I linked, consensus will readily emerge. My personal opinion is that no change is necessary, and the IETF LLC statement from last year is excellent and correct, but I don't I also don't think any really bad outcome is possible if people actually do their homework. :) thanks, Rob --000000000000aef27d05cb832955 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 1:46 PM Livingood,= Jason <Jason_Livingood@c= omcast.com> wrote:
> Well, that just says this documen= t is needed due to "growing concern in the community". Fine. I do= n't think it's needed (and I seem to be one of the only people that= reads any of these documents), but most of what's in it is true.

This is IMO one of those issues where IETF community consensus needs to be = developed and show us a path forward. My understanding of the process as it= stands now (and Lars can correct me) is GenDispatch will either dispatch i= t to a particular area or WG or to do it in the Gen Area (or take no action= I suppose).

That sounds right to me. I= think if people read the relevant documents, including the existing BCPs l= inked by the draft, and the IETF LLC statement I linked, consensus will rea= dily emerge.

My personal opinion=C2=A0is that no c= hange is necessary, and the IETF LLC statement from last year is excellent = and correct, but I don't I also don't think any really bad outcome = is possible if people actually do their homework. :)

thanks,
Rob

--000000000000aef27d05cb832955-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 23:51:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DD03A1E90; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vDQ-mcyfQH8r; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5D443A1E8B; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c1e:417f:b160:6754]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C36146003D5; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:50:49 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631170249; bh=qBbdu5KYfBNqKrUlc5mDtaIbBqsf2zzcDJMoQcMnxBU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=gApKtDhDzlYaqIOMw+9hXPlNlvC0NwlJWFPyj87NqAdlpvYNH+TdQ9evFhY72f90e P6WjoymhtHt/Wxvp1R120cyBDihvLyQuY6cJR0vh6344R3mStFvbE+IIy1UIlroyL1 c27e6u3OlqYbkrX3jmkHCE2cemhLOr37rBSV0iIE= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:50:49 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List To: Barry Leiba References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> X-MailScanner-ID: C36146003D5.AF98B X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:51:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, thanks for the suggestions. Please see = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those = in. On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > its own choosing. >=20 > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > change that process. This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based = on the current text in BCP45, which says: The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints ^^^^^^^^^^ regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these = complaints. I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a = minimal bis, I didn't make that change. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE5rskACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdKoQ/+O0z2qWpsPoV8be0lhF1Z0towEhKRHs4SgjW/ANvwlvCRkADsSSdVETwp fIp/nSdcbDHMkLbl4cOyTDH2x2GNpFSfwPGWdGH1zCIgngOx3yPIQ5iPxK+MeK7C lwOLrKwKSbqZTYMRwvE01i7CRtyM01/U9CTtKUetqHXjWQI2t2DNYBDsWy566I46 iBwZtVkyEF/56GP25YrG8niuPMOSBDp2lwgdDpwfv0eSQpuGHF10pEHqrzf5euqN UAPiAGKV74tJ1+bnLVXUvBMhv6k9+deniaZL67WbmkUNdKvgSgP/F/KRrgX963Ar 2htGtKDsh3fUS/yqcjRn0rh2uBqALZrj1m/eLmT5j52ST01pqSw1qidn/wag7Gn6 SloVR8WAQQv29VXA3cqWXwJn2ZSNERRSJq5kk17h4MLojt6cMenxhHRNGYIuqi+e HENbZnj1yhSzpJXOejUN819q4aWoor7IT3lW/M+hmchnVK/Hfq8vvMn4LFvZBJo0 ORxrEhxMZ/mUW+8uLQyzO9NBSp5/3iGsvtPcbiTPl30HSCQBuq++ggjwkfMe3KXq RaURURkHjf4pjmnGoMkMdIZn2g41KjJCn2AZ9pTO9LgqJywFh1pDF0gj6K+Bv8CQ YnFO5ddi64mvT3R7JVGS1BXqC0FuyMiWZQH6Dk+QxlupoLG2aeo= =/h9o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 23:51:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id BE9633A1E91; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DD03A1E90; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vDQ-mcyfQH8r; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5D443A1E8B; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c1e:417f:b160:6754]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C36146003D5; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:50:49 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631170249; bh=qBbdu5KYfBNqKrUlc5mDtaIbBqsf2zzcDJMoQcMnxBU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=gApKtDhDzlYaqIOMw+9hXPlNlvC0NwlJWFPyj87NqAdlpvYNH+TdQ9evFhY72f90e P6WjoymhtHt/Wxvp1R120cyBDihvLyQuY6cJR0vh6344R3mStFvbE+IIy1UIlroyL1 c27e6u3OlqYbkrX3jmkHCE2cemhLOr37rBSV0iIE= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 09:50:49 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List To: Barry Leiba References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> X-MailScanner-ID: C36146003D5.AF98B X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210909065100.BE9633A1E91@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:51:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, thanks for the suggestions. Please see = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those = in. On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > its own choosing. >=20 > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > change that process. This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based = on the current text in BCP45, which says: The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints ^^^^^^^^^^ regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these = complaints. I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a = minimal bis, I didn't make that change. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE5rskACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdKoQ/+O0z2qWpsPoV8be0lhF1Z0towEhKRHs4SgjW/ANvwlvCRkADsSSdVETwp fIp/nSdcbDHMkLbl4cOyTDH2x2GNpFSfwPGWdGH1zCIgngOx3yPIQ5iPxK+MeK7C lwOLrKwKSbqZTYMRwvE01i7CRtyM01/U9CTtKUetqHXjWQI2t2DNYBDsWy566I46 iBwZtVkyEF/56GP25YrG8niuPMOSBDp2lwgdDpwfv0eSQpuGHF10pEHqrzf5euqN UAPiAGKV74tJ1+bnLVXUvBMhv6k9+deniaZL67WbmkUNdKvgSgP/F/KRrgX963Ar 2htGtKDsh3fUS/yqcjRn0rh2uBqALZrj1m/eLmT5j52ST01pqSw1qidn/wag7Gn6 SloVR8WAQQv29VXA3cqWXwJn2ZSNERRSJq5kk17h4MLojt6cMenxhHRNGYIuqi+e HENbZnj1yhSzpJXOejUN819q4aWoor7IT3lW/M+hmchnVK/Hfq8vvMn4LFvZBJo0 ORxrEhxMZ/mUW+8uLQyzO9NBSp5/3iGsvtPcbiTPl30HSCQBuq++ggjwkfMe3KXq RaURURkHjf4pjmnGoMkMdIZn2g41KjJCn2AZ9pTO9LgqJywFh1pDF0gj6K+Bv8CQ YnFO5ddi64mvT3R7JVGS1BXqC0FuyMiWZQH6Dk+QxlupoLG2aeo= =/h9o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A25CEB52-777F-4227-9061-81D504C14B3B-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 23:54:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F853A1EA5; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 372fwkm-b5E5; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E7A33A1EA2; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id q14so883680ils.5; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZR1IqFfAjqQcknGLxCa2VigTU4nZJZi2Sa9iqpspVjU=; b=W3IliF6esCYU7Kz1JIMMkav46rCmYQ2NsU/PAGAGo88gQGmPgJJY2j5nCF7n64NcF5 sxjJIw/fRcdTSEKNfLitHD8YCMJmz03oT0EW2nb/maZLYfoyZaYsAJt5ePD53btl8Hmw s+sj6W/pe68GktEv7t2yY+9hnJK+ZQ67tjLLZ8Z7yFUBlgOUgDCfJ/xRStplJqY8FKwM LczON7KZUnBCUD5LZ6A1maEO4FXNjIa4a3Dv3Qp0LXPYto47fbry4lEmqYajIWtxp+xX EPnG4CaYl3Ec0kdqhcw77fs89WgUk+95dp4ORZestWVnUjVf8dvDNERPr7Xkt3LO5JEZ eqXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZR1IqFfAjqQcknGLxCa2VigTU4nZJZi2Sa9iqpspVjU=; b=54kx/svIQ0QhW8yf4bBrtWVqKx8FbpvkoMGNOV5hGhEsxZO7jfHZiHZcidxm0F/iSd eTATG5+YXQEh6dHrXX2CdQkyQdU0I/MG0JRfVGD442dJ1320yldO2woOIhRWmmSvyDSJ AjVc9CdR8fbZWoD/baTk6iHyprXBtojrWY2Vir3m9HALSyNUhRaTdGS+oKna0RRBeo/3 fv+2Uh5BwU8TtFd6UTvlJPRD/+hk22h0Hb3Us+0NTDVWeLMZu2AJMPWkJtAxdiXxod3V Pbn78TIf7AyQoBECgL4wVW/gyfwKX47cvvxzpQe57KHJktD9ujYS/OTvmvhQMpP10ggD vDmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cfhD7AcgJncloCrIFRGw788OcE+lLqu46XtjjGdspu0bb8llX TeXzIc4vVFLitMqdpGX8yFywfz7U5UnuQVTuZFE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgill7G6zLJ6phVwBR1FiklDF1oaYOoPUmXcW/XrTZpkU8VguLIwwtbR3olACoLkVK2v8fALMDsT77a+MzVbM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:194c:: with SMTP id x12mr1165952ilu.155.1631170429507; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:53:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:53:58 -0000 --00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > thanks for the suggestions. Please see > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those > in. > > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > > its own choosing. > > > > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > > change that process. > > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based > on the current text in BCP45, which says: > > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because otherwise > it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these complaints. > > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it > would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a > minimal bis, I didn't make that change. > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

thanks for the suggestions. Please see https://github.c= om/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those in.

On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair = - even if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation = of the SAA
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB.=C2= =A0 The IAB shall
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a m= anner of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0its own choosing.
>
> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here?=C2=A0 One reas= on to
> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first
> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would.=C2=A0 Then to= the
> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB.=C2=A0 I don't see a good reason= to
> change that process.

This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on= the current text in BCP45, which says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-= arms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a p= erson,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represen= ts a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pattern of abuse.=C2=A0 They are encouraged to take into accou= nt the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular postings are an aberration or typical.=C2=A0 Compla= ints
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ^^^^^^^^^^
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these com= plaints.

I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a minima= l bis, I didn't make that change.

Thanks,
Lars

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 23:54:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0A1BD3A1EA6; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F853A1EA5; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 372fwkm-b5E5; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E7A33A1EA2; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id q14so883680ils.5; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZR1IqFfAjqQcknGLxCa2VigTU4nZJZi2Sa9iqpspVjU=; b=W3IliF6esCYU7Kz1JIMMkav46rCmYQ2NsU/PAGAGo88gQGmPgJJY2j5nCF7n64NcF5 sxjJIw/fRcdTSEKNfLitHD8YCMJmz03oT0EW2nb/maZLYfoyZaYsAJt5ePD53btl8Hmw s+sj6W/pe68GktEv7t2yY+9hnJK+ZQ67tjLLZ8Z7yFUBlgOUgDCfJ/xRStplJqY8FKwM LczON7KZUnBCUD5LZ6A1maEO4FXNjIa4a3Dv3Qp0LXPYto47fbry4lEmqYajIWtxp+xX EPnG4CaYl3Ec0kdqhcw77fs89WgUk+95dp4ORZestWVnUjVf8dvDNERPr7Xkt3LO5JEZ eqXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZR1IqFfAjqQcknGLxCa2VigTU4nZJZi2Sa9iqpspVjU=; b=54kx/svIQ0QhW8yf4bBrtWVqKx8FbpvkoMGNOV5hGhEsxZO7jfHZiHZcidxm0F/iSd eTATG5+YXQEh6dHrXX2CdQkyQdU0I/MG0JRfVGD442dJ1320yldO2woOIhRWmmSvyDSJ AjVc9CdR8fbZWoD/baTk6iHyprXBtojrWY2Vir3m9HALSyNUhRaTdGS+oKna0RRBeo/3 fv+2Uh5BwU8TtFd6UTvlJPRD/+hk22h0Hb3Us+0NTDVWeLMZu2AJMPWkJtAxdiXxod3V Pbn78TIf7AyQoBECgL4wVW/gyfwKX47cvvxzpQe57KHJktD9ujYS/OTvmvhQMpP10ggD vDmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cfhD7AcgJncloCrIFRGw788OcE+lLqu46XtjjGdspu0bb8llX TeXzIc4vVFLitMqdpGX8yFywfz7U5UnuQVTuZFE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxgill7G6zLJ6phVwBR1FiklDF1oaYOoPUmXcW/XrTZpkU8VguLIwwtbR3olACoLkVK2v8fALMDsT77a+MzVbM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:194c:: with SMTP id x12mr1165952ilu.155.1631170429507; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:53:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210909065358.0A1BD3A1EA6@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:53:58 -0000 --00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > thanks for the suggestions. Please see > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those > in. > > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > > its own choosing. > > > > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > > change that process. > > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based > on the current text in BCP45, which says: > > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because otherwise > it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these complaints. > > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it > would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a > minimal bis, I didn't make that change. > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

thanks for the suggestions. Please see https://github.c= om/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those in.

On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair = - even if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation = of the SAA
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB.=C2= =A0 The IAB shall
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a m= anner of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0its own choosing.
>
> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here?=C2=A0 One reas= on to
> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first
> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would.=C2=A0 Then to= the
> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB.=C2=A0 I don't see a good reason= to
> change that process.

This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on= the current text in BCP45, which says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-= arms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a p= erson,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represen= ts a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pattern of abuse.=C2=A0 They are encouraged to take into accou= nt the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular postings are an aberration or typical.=C2=A0 Compla= ints
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ^^^^^^^^^^
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these com= plaints.

I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a minima= l bis, I didn't make that change.

Thanks,
Lars

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--00000000000004dfcf05cb8a767f-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 23:57:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A99E3A1EBE; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TquJIPACve4B; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D5193A1EBA; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id s16so884944ilo.9; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EJmluTdKbydCkp/IGMsTJzv6zgUYvjz4e5R4qKqLVAU=; b=Ws6eM2yjZVxchc6aCMdRGSw6jUioTyj0aNmh8K78pqIy75cJwzjJ2fiTN+3DoJdBA8 0l9EI7Y96YxHsNHbFTnjXVHqoGRvOFf/SZMZHTOdtcDvhuxnASyWEDMGdbbO0eyPGFje VP1OQPHUlVcM1x+Zt/Ea8wzTftt7uq+OB9fCiuLSQcNFTeJ/Er1GrNziU7mhkAWPbLjE GB4HBPjNPER/h/jNwMk4CYLwW8Va9bhRm2mSRZN0m+dlVZECCzcjaUeOVxSG6zfs5XOD L7n6hxyKNmzbC/5ILekmpV5loQf8TkDsC8H+LoQSsZzbH2p3cIdLP0dKwK6Gpgcz2hEY kCYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EJmluTdKbydCkp/IGMsTJzv6zgUYvjz4e5R4qKqLVAU=; b=YMKs0dKa+kBBVuwPLuVU1TEL5WjVaGA6EPmB7860SBZyH9dAl/Fp+9z+EmG6AAPqJs 7Le4F6Em1SRXnsPSB2JsuR1VwWxEH9OH0METimBQOaBw2MvmjqDl7LVpeO5Hh5YwhOCg AY8b5fiF6wI8QX3yOMd5Y5Ys1JDDyepYxL5QlzD58xcNQXN8O8aPoQD/7z34iPs4HFzB V+KuRard2f3s732zQOFLJR0TZwmtzLIaEn38uO0np6YnIRBlBnTCjwtwm+2HLHBS0yyl J41Lu2kys9AirJ3YSqgJTufDOBMW6fZpX7MxCi2SQfznXYJjn6Mnwz+uZHkaE/4fgkpy Ylnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GQQX5pbEmILXOZDEFbLV0nBIjbH9sYWuWmCAtJ5xfG5TotN4j R8HW5yYUaRvarheATajTX4XrZfu5ru0+bQrhAA/Q9knW X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjEAUZMlRrVYKeznDmtOHPncP01TyhuB1GsTYjBqbS3sSJ8vrycWZnRoUXKH8vx8NZ16S0CjaEE7Si1IRfHuo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13c2:: with SMTP id v2mr1221664ilj.259.1631170628077; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:57:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000daccb805cb8a8197" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:57:15 -0000 --000000000000daccb805cb8a8197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't think it really matters. I am not aware of any successful appeal ever, so write whatever seems expedient, thanks, Rob On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > thanks for the suggestions. Please see > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those > in. > > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > > its own choosing. > > > > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > > change that process. > > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based > on the current text in BCP45, which says: > > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because otherwise > it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these complaints. > > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it > would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a > minimal bis, I didn't make that change. > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000daccb805cb8a8197 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think it really matters.

I = am not aware of any successful appeal ever, so write whatever seems expedie= nt,

thanks,
Rob


On W= ed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

thanks for the suggestions. Please see https://github.c= om/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those in.

On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair = - even if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation = of the SAA
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB.=C2= =A0 The IAB shall
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a m= anner of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0its own choosing.
>
> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here?=C2=A0 One reas= on to
> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first
> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would.=C2=A0 Then to= the
> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB.=C2=A0 I don't see a good reason= to
> change that process.

This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on= the current text in BCP45, which says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-= arms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a p= erson,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represen= ts a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pattern of abuse.=C2=A0 They are encouraged to take into accou= nt the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular postings are an aberration or typical.=C2=A0 Compla= ints
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ^^^^^^^^^^
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these com= plaints.

I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a minima= l bis, I didn't make that change.

Thanks,
Lars

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--000000000000daccb805cb8a8197-- From nobody Wed Sep 8 23:57:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 7FA3D3A1EC1; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A99E3A1EBE; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TquJIPACve4B; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D5193A1EBA; Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id s16so884944ilo.9; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:57:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EJmluTdKbydCkp/IGMsTJzv6zgUYvjz4e5R4qKqLVAU=; b=Ws6eM2yjZVxchc6aCMdRGSw6jUioTyj0aNmh8K78pqIy75cJwzjJ2fiTN+3DoJdBA8 0l9EI7Y96YxHsNHbFTnjXVHqoGRvOFf/SZMZHTOdtcDvhuxnASyWEDMGdbbO0eyPGFje VP1OQPHUlVcM1x+Zt/Ea8wzTftt7uq+OB9fCiuLSQcNFTeJ/Er1GrNziU7mhkAWPbLjE GB4HBPjNPER/h/jNwMk4CYLwW8Va9bhRm2mSRZN0m+dlVZECCzcjaUeOVxSG6zfs5XOD L7n6hxyKNmzbC/5ILekmpV5loQf8TkDsC8H+LoQSsZzbH2p3cIdLP0dKwK6Gpgcz2hEY kCYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EJmluTdKbydCkp/IGMsTJzv6zgUYvjz4e5R4qKqLVAU=; b=YMKs0dKa+kBBVuwPLuVU1TEL5WjVaGA6EPmB7860SBZyH9dAl/Fp+9z+EmG6AAPqJs 7Le4F6Em1SRXnsPSB2JsuR1VwWxEH9OH0METimBQOaBw2MvmjqDl7LVpeO5Hh5YwhOCg AY8b5fiF6wI8QX3yOMd5Y5Ys1JDDyepYxL5QlzD58xcNQXN8O8aPoQD/7z34iPs4HFzB V+KuRard2f3s732zQOFLJR0TZwmtzLIaEn38uO0np6YnIRBlBnTCjwtwm+2HLHBS0yyl J41Lu2kys9AirJ3YSqgJTufDOBMW6fZpX7MxCi2SQfznXYJjn6Mnwz+uZHkaE/4fgkpy Ylnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GQQX5pbEmILXOZDEFbLV0nBIjbH9sYWuWmCAtJ5xfG5TotN4j R8HW5yYUaRvarheATajTX4XrZfu5ru0+bQrhAA/Q9knW X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjEAUZMlRrVYKeznDmtOHPncP01TyhuB1GsTYjBqbS3sSJ8vrycWZnRoUXKH8vx8NZ16S0CjaEE7Si1IRfHuo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13c2:: with SMTP id v2mr1221664ilj.259.1631170628077; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:57:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000daccb805cb8a8197" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210909065715.7FA3D3A1EC1@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:57:16 -0000 --000000000000daccb805cb8a8197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't think it really matters. I am not aware of any successful appeal ever, so write whatever seems expedient, thanks, Rob On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > thanks for the suggestions. Please see > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those > in. > > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > > its own choosing. > > > > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > > change that process. > > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based > on the current text in BCP45, which says: > > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because otherwise > it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these complaints. > > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it > would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a > minimal bis, I didn't make that change. > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --000000000000daccb805cb8a8197 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think it really matters.

I = am not aware of any successful appeal ever, so write whatever seems expedie= nt,

thanks,
Rob


On W= ed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

thanks for the suggestions. Please see https://github.c= om/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those in.

On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair = - even if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation = of the SAA
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB.=C2= =A0 The IAB shall
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a m= anner of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0its own choosing.
>
> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here?=C2=A0 One reas= on to
> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first
> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would.=C2=A0 Then to= the
> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB.=C2=A0 I don't see a good reason= to
> change that process.

This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on= the current text in BCP45, which says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-= arms
=C2=A0 =C2=A0appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a p= erson,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represen= ts a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pattern of abuse.=C2=A0 They are encouraged to take into accou= nt the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular postings are an aberration or typical.=C2=A0 Compla= ints
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ^^^^^^^^^^
=C2=A0 =C2=A0regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these com= plaints.

I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a minima= l bis, I didn't make that change.

Thanks,
Lars

--
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--000000000000daccb805cb8a8197-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:06:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442B33A1F0B; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaAYXQnxaEz4; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D93FC3A1F03; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C447B4A8D5B5; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id db7jUY6RCtzh; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2EA6490033D; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:06:21 +1200 Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:06:35 -0000 > On 9/09/2021, at 6:50 PM, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > thanks for the suggestions. Please see = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those = in. >=20 > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: >> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if >> the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA >> team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall >> then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of >> its own choosing. >>=20 >> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason = to >> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first >> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the >> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to >> change that process. >=20 > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is = based on the current text in BCP45, which says: >=20 > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these = complaints. >=20 > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a = minimal bis, I didn't make that change. As an aside - In case anyone has forgotten, the IETF Executive Director = (me) can no longer do this as per RFC 8717. Jay=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:06:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id EADBA3A1F0C; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442B33A1F0B; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaAYXQnxaEz4; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D93FC3A1F03; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C447B4A8D5B5; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id db7jUY6RCtzh; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2EA6490033D; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 19:06:21 +1200 Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:06:36 -0000 > On 9/09/2021, at 6:50 PM, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > thanks for the suggestions. Please see = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those = in. >=20 > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: >> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if >> the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA >> team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall >> then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of >> its own choosing. >>=20 >> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason = to >> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first >> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the >> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to >> change that process. >=20 > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is = based on the current text in BCP45, which says: >=20 > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >=20 > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because = otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these = complaints. >=20 > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it = would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a = minimal bis, I didn't make that change. As an aside - In case anyone has forgotten, the IETF Executive Director = (me) can no longer do this as per RFC 8717. Jay=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:12:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239C43A1F4B; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dG20sHdhzOXD; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB8933A1F46; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c1e:417f:b160:6754]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08849600373; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:11:56 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631171517; bh=leqB9ISt0Jd7reAjQpTj83U4eZzE9RCBOldyPAtJ7YU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=BcQjHWyTJhD0VZ5MBNA/U+UDuW01c29wZ2fvZEb2tuBAZIQZiAbrYFqgV40FTzzqQ zxiAKOgCtxNPmeKjAhkkB/WbWTsRRA7lsFptIC1KD2CknZH99m1LEML68Hp6e690Z6 /8kusy7GnI5flsNyGZ4dFq4/pm0tje7L/vkiw/oM= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:11:54 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List To: Jay Daley References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 08849600373.AF46F X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:12:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-9, at 10:06, Jay Daley wrote: > As an aside - In case anyone has forgotten, the IETF Executive = Director (me) can no longer do this as per RFC 8717. thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that = now. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE5s7oACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdmFxAA08JjEudWnrN7xX1CJqLCZp4ITXkAjJ0J7V2/lsqRHKdw9vqMHZqRPioE lmIGjjbMPm+D5KeYcKTVchbkWVH5gxvX4BfyDLiHdv2KMFjtdNcHin/ou+T8W+Nz TuPYQGfijiB4dxjNZI0yJRDhsjpXIUNc6E9qPpeqvqsSoCqhitYfLC4UCJcRYHr4 biNANgXrSX+tojJzRX3AZUuUoXXPryui6+8ST03cfA2g3qthti7S5pEdlgOBpDXD h5Mr6kFGndk/taWximgyaDAA699wEIr2Hmw7hvXTG2ul068p1sYC5Y3NFSS2FnWH CXYG+/XPnWVXpN8PAnw0oGC6nlMcbbuDeYqVPErGLAe22TrEAS3a8xXlSKAOfXMh SeCV34STwpvUBj/cwyEZ0+4PEgm9t4/tHEo0u7ickwZLukz0gYSkteApaKh80O0G nLYUfct3R8XhPa+L+d+yYmslBp+7ngIS52QDbeH4RKYtLn29FdmsGXVE76ioobLJ 8XsbRbIj6i6DTJMBWPtFALSyUb1Yn0wn8TTsHFQfyGNU/3TEvpFSETAalnVTW5FY qxzMZTGVvaPB7Uhvap0Rad2O9hJ548D2x7GtXhgwZD/S4drfGKgKzRR0BiRcDsJB bm8uf3oBN3fQXvcEKrOlIoSZaTlJvOXysWDn9m6BzleBmQR8f2c= =yNFu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:12:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0F1B03A1F4C; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239C43A1F4B; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dG20sHdhzOXD; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB8933A1F46; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c1e:417f:b160:6754]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08849600373; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:11:56 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631171517; bh=leqB9ISt0Jd7reAjQpTj83U4eZzE9RCBOldyPAtJ7YU=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=BcQjHWyTJhD0VZ5MBNA/U+UDuW01c29wZ2fvZEb2tuBAZIQZiAbrYFqgV40FTzzqQ zxiAKOgCtxNPmeKjAhkkB/WbWTsRRA7lsFptIC1KD2CknZH99m1LEML68Hp6e690Z6 /8kusy7GnI5flsNyGZ4dFq4/pm0tje7L/vkiw/oM= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:11:54 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List To: Jay Daley References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 08849600373.AF46F X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Resent-From: Resent-To: gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210909071216.0F1B03A1F4C@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:12:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-9, at 10:06, Jay Daley wrote: > As an aside - In case anyone has forgotten, the IETF Executive = Director (me) can no longer do this as per RFC 8717. thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that = now. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE5s7oACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdmFxAA08JjEudWnrN7xX1CJqLCZp4ITXkAjJ0J7V2/lsqRHKdw9vqMHZqRPioE lmIGjjbMPm+D5KeYcKTVchbkWVH5gxvX4BfyDLiHdv2KMFjtdNcHin/ou+T8W+Nz TuPYQGfijiB4dxjNZI0yJRDhsjpXIUNc6E9qPpeqvqsSoCqhitYfLC4UCJcRYHr4 biNANgXrSX+tojJzRX3AZUuUoXXPryui6+8ST03cfA2g3qthti7S5pEdlgOBpDXD h5Mr6kFGndk/taWximgyaDAA699wEIr2Hmw7hvXTG2ul068p1sYC5Y3NFSS2FnWH CXYG+/XPnWVXpN8PAnw0oGC6nlMcbbuDeYqVPErGLAe22TrEAS3a8xXlSKAOfXMh SeCV34STwpvUBj/cwyEZ0+4PEgm9t4/tHEo0u7ickwZLukz0gYSkteApaKh80O0G nLYUfct3R8XhPa+L+d+yYmslBp+7ngIS52QDbeH4RKYtLn29FdmsGXVE76ioobLJ 8XsbRbIj6i6DTJMBWPtFALSyUb1Yn0wn8TTsHFQfyGNU/3TEvpFSETAalnVTW5FY qxzMZTGVvaPB7Uhvap0Rad2O9hJ548D2x7GtXhgwZD/S4drfGKgKzRR0BiRcDsJB bm8uf3oBN3fQXvcEKrOlIoSZaTlJvOXysWDn9m6BzleBmQR8f2c= =yNFu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F1DC2BA6-E9B9-4F02-ACB5-97A16327D336-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:15:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98373A1F64; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1H63UC5DNWvE; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86AF03A1F63; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c1e:417f:b160:6754]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11541600373; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:15:21 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631171722; bh=OPMNYb773paMjyhNWpcsOqfx3deGSQkffu8z/u/Yw4k=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=KDFPDnR6ZRLD9jhm6sb+bc1BD6RwJXAnPVOYTsMGMeS5TVgeU0NL9L5yFKBouhzmS Rg+14MAZO2WVfVU7FDKKl8KC/gieVPGA5rRfWannz9elH6o8Pnz9H7IDzD1pLrPkS6 4RexaS/fOcAdl41PGiHLp8mq5LED/PE479IwY+B8= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:15:21 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List To: Jay Daley References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 11541600373.AE6A1 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:15:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-9, at 10:11, Lars Eggert wrote: > thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that = now. I might have forgotten, but the SAA text from Dhruv corrected this = already, so the current version is fine: = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1 Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE5tIkACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdESRAAnZME3Kde4lIQuJAd2hteJ/ZtIV8bZy7sPb/2xeugVMy4BcoqGuWJvSlB iKLzndtHZ9209Tl1XWNrppvJVKEaox9crxSlpVGy+1Rg29/oLkYUrzGqiYbcRNV4 fmy+7xVVYAc6HeyvdSimi+H+X+pbgQgSpnob9gkh0xqqAzdVsponILX79GfayOHs ghXvg+rkC87pJ3I20o+3GGhnITz6Z7wMLSrr0jlUFSMajA5YkmaFMfhlAZxJkT1k kEe4KcSSynEOe9dW9M9UQlftwaX1QfDkskH5RKSY+sysnNtFVKgZ2nzv1YWjlJW5 UDVtIbsg92JAj4/m0/fGr6LsSlUP+FI6c0WaG1IkH7R32JlQA6K5Y7YqPOT5tjGA ekJBbIlCjlowLcuDFAvPN0AfjgHlApKvYhVr3952bw/QEGVMA2WaT/RDob4/qZZW LVuEp5Vn226c7KQfAQAZdBHsdHXWdimNCW6Rtq+MZrSXPTtZgBsvZ1eX/i2S7Vd4 HMKneTH2FfywzB+dlxDpDffyP/BiDn//guInjKot/dCTZpn9d3UioLpJ36jDf/OE 3VMsTPcwSEPS/QAiaYgpuzS/3SK18Ayh5SQBO59fioVncxg640HTg/aAqLEGdQmb vCRmdfBJjE/UzAHS4rYbBI1UAEbA59r4Nd/j/k9eE98aA3a6OP8= =MQs2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:15:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 3E0253A1F65; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98373A1F64; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1H63UC5DNWvE; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86AF03A1F63; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c1e:417f:b160:6754]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11541600373; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:15:21 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631171722; bh=OPMNYb773paMjyhNWpcsOqfx3deGSQkffu8z/u/Yw4k=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=KDFPDnR6ZRLD9jhm6sb+bc1BD6RwJXAnPVOYTsMGMeS5TVgeU0NL9L5yFKBouhzmS Rg+14MAZO2WVfVU7FDKKl8KC/gieVPGA5rRfWannz9elH6o8Pnz9H7IDzD1pLrPkS6 4RexaS/fOcAdl41PGiHLp8mq5LED/PE479IwY+B8= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:15:21 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List To: Jay Daley References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> X-MailScanner-ID: 11541600373.AE6A1 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Resent-From: Resent-To: gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210909071540.3E0253A1F65@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:15:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-9, at 10:11, Lars Eggert wrote: > thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that = now. I might have forgotten, but the SAA text from Dhruv corrected this = already, so the current version is fine: = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1 Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE5tIkACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdESRAAnZME3Kde4lIQuJAd2hteJ/ZtIV8bZy7sPb/2xeugVMy4BcoqGuWJvSlB iKLzndtHZ9209Tl1XWNrppvJVKEaox9crxSlpVGy+1Rg29/oLkYUrzGqiYbcRNV4 fmy+7xVVYAc6HeyvdSimi+H+X+pbgQgSpnob9gkh0xqqAzdVsponILX79GfayOHs ghXvg+rkC87pJ3I20o+3GGhnITz6Z7wMLSrr0jlUFSMajA5YkmaFMfhlAZxJkT1k kEe4KcSSynEOe9dW9M9UQlftwaX1QfDkskH5RKSY+sysnNtFVKgZ2nzv1YWjlJW5 UDVtIbsg92JAj4/m0/fGr6LsSlUP+FI6c0WaG1IkH7R32JlQA6K5Y7YqPOT5tjGA ekJBbIlCjlowLcuDFAvPN0AfjgHlApKvYhVr3952bw/QEGVMA2WaT/RDob4/qZZW LVuEp5Vn226c7KQfAQAZdBHsdHXWdimNCW6Rtq+MZrSXPTtZgBsvZ1eX/i2S7Vd4 HMKneTH2FfywzB+dlxDpDffyP/BiDn//guInjKot/dCTZpn9d3UioLpJ36jDf/OE 3VMsTPcwSEPS/QAiaYgpuzS/3SK18Ayh5SQBO59fioVncxg640HTg/aAqLEGdQmb vCRmdfBJjE/UzAHS4rYbBI1UAEbA59r4Nd/j/k9eE98aA3a6OP8= =MQs2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C297A04E-FE5B-46A5-B0BD-AA6FD55C04C4-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:20:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D23B3A1F86; 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Thu, 09 Sep 2021 00:20:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Jay Daley , GENDISPATCH List , Barry Leiba , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:20:30 -0000 --00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" As has been pointed out before, this discussion seems better suited for the general IETF list. Is there something that needs to be dispatched here? Not to mince words: I hope they enjoy that discussion, on a list I will never join. thanks, Rob On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 12:15 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-9-9, at 10:11, Lars Eggert wrote: > > thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that > now. > > I might have forgotten, but the SAA text from Dhruv corrected this > already, so the current version is fine: > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1 > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As has been pointed out before, this discussion=C2=A0seems= better suited for the general IETF list. Is there something that needs to = be dispatched here?

Not to mince words: I hope they enjo= y that discussion, on a list I will never join.

th= anks,
Rob


On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 12:15 AM Lar= s Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wro= te:
Hi,

On 2021-9-9, at 10:11, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
> thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that = now.

I might have forgotten, but the SAA text from Dhruv corrected this already,= so the current version is fine: https://github.com/lar= seggert/bcp45bis/pull/1

Thanks,
Lars

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--00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 00:20:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id B5DD33A1F89; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D23B3A1F86; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wnzUWoOBg_i2; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x130.google.com (mail-il1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 151133A1F88; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x130.google.com with SMTP id x10so921759ilm.12; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PhPgtEUlHpeYv0yJjQIPiOojJoca8fs83v3g9p++5Ts=; b=ilxYNBvkm0O83yjgAJax5cZYUJXN5Ag5Qq8Zqi/xhakXa/vVjvLrk28/W94WNPr13j scA8vDskDDU9EkZLLJcwzrQiQscMyo9DDf18DUvo/bPucgS2VG71Sjg/q6rrdZ1rYKPl N4RVwFseDqCX1Pqy7m2Zk4ctgvqFu01hfxa6r7OpETBwVmYwxJ+P30ArCLVNo12gtp3q 6Nnlz0/rZTenzcsg2EIrI5+tg4TUFOspZxbapBR5/J05pN6gjauKGVLoscWGKJXWady9 nvbfrwwor1B7HpPw3uS57Dc0C1E4Ucvfpr9xgf4hs+RxPVWu181H6ry64+8UXVur0KR5 QyBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PhPgtEUlHpeYv0yJjQIPiOojJoca8fs83v3g9p++5Ts=; b=dwV84za1TzD8aPXiL2Ov6Fcnks6QddI/T1fjq61+WtMVlHrAGubIMdoMC8LvYZaLah aIKe+vo31zW3wVZ/JNlC/zHp3BOtJPB6Hew7zwbThOcGgRnYb8hEuXIfOKGK/iAgSRrO oU+DBuoY6bgkNk+sGUL7C+Kd3xnhxnmj78qEybvf03V3dMyoSR4150LkCAKG0VphmcuT Z5ZfjkAzxGDoGCMFJvPwKorJUYcIasauahgr0OuhBaR7gpzfW3OVCiVUorYLLC5l7sTz C8Fa7GumgZDT6bYxXtosH68P171D+VjK1DefPccAjj0BTNZ2oiEuOvvJwdvIkfF6BirW gs+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533+i1sXcQhHqpjQdaOqXlTuTblJMkWEW9zgFNYjw5SekD0thmNm 1N7th4Eqjskj+/yeL75tk3EW7ZRPSfQmu+j3lyA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwt8VBdvghTIDsKkDDm8m5hnWPxs+cgkr7UhI5B+1Yv0e/ZdHN15h7vMAtkukdVeD6oOom8CjeP1h1esdDRJpE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:13c2:: with SMTP id v2mr1286129ilj.259.1631172023677; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 00:20:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Jay Daley , GENDISPATCH List , Barry Leiba , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576" Resent-From: Resent-To: gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210909072030.B5DD33A1F89@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:20:31 -0000 --00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" As has been pointed out before, this discussion seems better suited for the general IETF list. Is there something that needs to be dispatched here? Not to mince words: I hope they enjoy that discussion, on a list I will never join. thanks, Rob On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 12:15 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-9-9, at 10:11, Lars Eggert wrote: > > thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that > now. > > I might have forgotten, but the SAA text from Dhruv corrected this > already, so the current version is fine: > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/1 > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000009f6e905cb8ad576 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As has been pointed out before, this discussion=C2=A0seems= better suited for the general IETF list. Is there something that needs to = be dispatched here?

Not to mince words: I hope they enjo= y that discussion, on a list I will never join.

th= anks,
Rob


On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 12:15 AM Lar= s Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wro= te:
Hi,

On 2021-9-9, at 10:11, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
> thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten that! Will remove that = now.

I might have forgotten, but the SAA text from Dhruv corrected this already,= so the current version is fine: https://github.com/lar= seggert/bcp45bis/pull/1

Thanks,
Lars

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.19) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:19:04 -0000 VGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB0aGUgZGlsaWdlbnQgYW5kIGNhcmVmdWwgcmV2aWV3ISBDaGFuZ2VzIGFy ZSBpbiBodHRwczovL2dpdGh1Yi5jb20vcmljaHNhbHovZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1yZmMyMDI4YmlzL3B1 bGwvNQ0KDQo+ICAgIFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBpbiBnZW5lcmFsIGlzIGluY29uc2lzdGVudCBpbiBo b3cgaXQgaGFuZGxlcyB0aGlzIHN0dWZmLg0KICAgIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBTZWN0aW9uIDQuNCBz YXlzLCAiVGhlIElFVEYgQ2hhaXIgaXMgYW4gZXgtb2ZmaWNpbyBtZW1iZXINCiAgICBvZiB0aGUg Ym9hcmQuIiwgYnV0IGRvZXMgbm90IHNheSB0aGF0IHRoZSBJUlRGIENoYWlyIGlzIGFsc28sIGFu ZCA0LjMNCiAgICBkb2VzIG5vdCBtZW50aW9uIHRoYXQgdGhlIElBQiBDaGFpciBpcyBhbHNvIGFu IGV4LW9mZmljaW8gbWVtYmVyIG9mDQogICAgdGhlIElFU0cuDQoNClRoYXQncyBhIGdvb2QgcG9p bnQuICBGaXhpbmcgdGhhdCB3YXMgZmFpcmx5IG1pbm9yLCBzbyBJIGRlY2lkZWQgdG8gYmUgY29t cGxldGUgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGZvY3VzIG9uICJ0aGUgaW1wb3J0YW50IHBhcnRz IiBvZiB0aGUgUkZDIHByb2Nlc3MuDQoNCiAgICBJbiA0LjMgYW5kIDQuNCwgImFuZCBhcmUgYXBw cm92ZWQgYnkiIHNob3VsZCBzYXksICJhbmQgYXJlIGNvbmZpcm1lZA0KICAgIGJ5IiwgYXMgdGhh dCdzIHRoZSB0ZXJtIHRoYXQncyB1c2VkIGluIHRoZSBCQ1BzLg0KDQpGaXhlZCwgdGhhbmtzLg0K DQogICAgU2VjdGlvbnMgNC44IGFuZCA0LjkgZG9uJ3QgdHJ5IHRvIHRhbGsgYWJvdXQgaG93IHRo ZSBtZW1iZXJzIChvZiB0aGUNCiAgICBUcnVzdCBhbmQgdGhlIExMQyBCb2FyZCkgYXJlIHNlbGVj dGVkIG9yIGNvbmZpcm1lZCwgYW5kIHNpbXBseSByZWZlcg0KICAgIHRvIHRoZSBCQ1BzLiAgSXQn cyBwcm9iYWJseSBiZXN0IGlmIDQuMyBhbmQgNC40IGZvbGxvdyB0aGF0IGFzIHdlbGwNCiAgICAo bWFraW5nIG15IHByZXZpb3VzIHBhcmFncmFwaCBtb290KS4NCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGUgc3VtbWFy eSB0aGF0J3MgdGhlcmUgaXMgd29ydGh3aGlsZSB0byByZWFkZXJzLiBJIHN1cHBvc2UgSSBjb3Vs ZCBhZGQgaG93IHRoZSBMTEMgYW5kIFRydXN0IEJvYXJkIGlzIHBpY2tlZC4gT25lIGFyZ3VtZW50 IGFnYWluc3QgdGhhdCBpcywgbGlrZSBhYm92ZSwgaXQncyBub3Qgc29tZXRoaW5nIG1hbnkgZGVh bCB3aXRoLiAgVGhvdWdodHM/DQoNCiAgICBTZWN0aW9uIDQuOCBzaG91bGQgYWxzbyBpbmNsdWRl IHRyYWRlbWFya3MgYXMgc29tZXRoaW5nIHRoZSBUcnVzdCBkZWFscyB3aXRoLg0KDQpHb29kIGNh dGNoLg0KDQogICAgVGhlIEludGVybmV0IFNvY2lldHkgc2VlbXMgdG8gaGF2ZSBjb25zb2xpZGF0 ZWQgaXRzIGJyYW5kaW5nIHRvIHRoZQ0KICAgIGZ1bGwgbmFtZSBhbmQgc2VlbXMgbm90IHRvIHVz ZSAiSVNPQyIgdGhlc2UgZGF5cywgZXZlbiB0byB0aGUgcG9pbnQgb2YNCiAgICByZWRpcmVjdGlu ZyA8aXNvYy5vcmc+IHRvIDxpbnRlcm5ldHNvY2lldHkub3JnPi4gIEdpdmVuIHRoZSBmZXcNCiAg ICBtZW50aW9ucyB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSwgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIHByb2JhYmx5IHVzZSAidGhlIElu dGVybmV0IFNvY2lldHkiDQogICAgdGhyb3VnaG91dCwgYW5kIGp1c3Qgbm90IHNheSAiSVNPQyIg YXQgYWxsICh0aG91Z2ggSSB0aGluayBpdCdzIGZpbmUNCiAgICB0byB1c2UgIltJU09DXSIgZm9y IHRoZSByZWZlcmVuY2UgY2l0YXRpb24pLg0KDQpGaXhlZC4NCg0KICAgIEluIFNlY3Rpb24gNC43 IHlvdSBoYXZlIGEgdHlwbzogSVNSRw0KDQpGeGllZCA6KQ0KDQogICAgSW4gU2VjdGlvbiA0Ljkg eW91IGhhdmUgYSB0eXBvOiByc2Vwb25zaWJsZQ0KDQpNb290ZWQgYnkgQ29saW4ncyBwcm9wb3Nh bC4NCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:05:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355313A11F4 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:05:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=csperkins.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URZa07c2ltRk for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77BCE3A12FD for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:05:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=csperkins.org; s=mythic-beasts-k1; h=To:Date:Subject:From; bh=zV+41+bOcrkuxg5nRoLAlS14j3q7Vs8ItA7OWkKZ/0o=; b=UR7xMlx0m9GM5a2dYaMZXYCBkb sGr8sW0I8ly64aPxFPxsD7PitQSBmKmPuoe2Mncz9V44Z9oOkmbZhDl8Bo2PjDVhlU9fVercaUpU0 Z/176g2F7Kon96m89c2pV6/qbNVxhxSskhh0wOByVMD5d+LJ4yWakd2ezI2l2WA6jtICZYi12HXZy M946Jr8DMzHBwgjcV1ww212qaU0yTFRsYDFF0moyF1o2yX5zTpacvnMxKfbGolvBZDS93Yu+jTrAp pf5vCtkQ83u19jfzbmBmdR20CF3N2ib/Q3lGWP1CqijEqiHNBdqE18OXUPl7re4PXgTGfLpMfAGdx 5+uLo5Lg==; Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=35668 helo=[192.168.0.83]) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1mOKfh-0002BF-OU; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:05:01 +0100 From: Colin Perkins Message-Id: <119D3098-2C79-4C0B-9147-6AFE723605E5@csperkins.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1C5DF6F0-0D78-44D8-8D4B-03F4BC409E42" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:04:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" To: "Salz, Rich" References: <163069758337.6471.7554165463937904967@ietfa.amsl.com> <61847102-F995-431C-9F01-91583AD6BA07@csperkins.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:05:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1C5DF6F0-0D78-44D8-8D4B-03F4BC409E42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 9 Sep 2021, at 14:04, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 > I am happy to take your suggested text as a replacement for 4.7, = thanks. I want to retain the sentence about consulting, however. > =20 > Will that address all your concerns? = https://github.com/richsalz/draft-ietf-rfc2028bis/pull/4 = > =20 > Thanks for the feedback! I=E2=80=99d merged the sentence about consulting in earlier, but I=E2=80=99= m happy with it in either place.=20 Cheers, Colin= --Apple-Mail=_1C5DF6F0-0D78-44D8-8D4B-03F4BC409E42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On = 9 Sep 2021, at 14:04, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

I am happy to take your = suggested text as a replacement for 4.7, thanks. I want to retain the = sentence about consulting, however.
 
Will that address all your concerns?  https://github.com/richsalz/draft-ietf-rfc2028bis/pull/4
 
Thanks for the = feedback!

I=E2=80=99d merged the sentence about consulting in earlier, = but I=E2=80=99m happy with it in either place. 

Cheers,
Colin
= --Apple-Mail=_1C5DF6F0-0D78-44D8-8D4B-03F4BC409E42-- From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:12:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE193A135E; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9l7mw_UUDec8; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f54.google.com (mail-vs1-f54.google.com [209.85.217.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C33A3A1355; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f54.google.com with SMTP id a21so1635650vsp.12; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:12:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uzF733x50H93o0/DMPphYr+7G7Y40pHKsZqwsqgRc4o=; b=cp42Nkbh1RoceMgC2mCL88TOxkksMk9udZR5ZzhUEIMjzRA4qqS73v763wOVEgsJy0 26oOfvaoWnC122m1zrd8F0V0aKCz/K173KoNcIRT25MAUBv3a/o6F/lX0ChNt9fi4oKo yBuZA/l7vcyzClGIRfOb2V3V6Fz2WKftO1/VGnUeyhBi6+DBuDUsJ3ibq480O/M0RtK0 m8Tw2I+44Fsgri67dxYg6/MWbN5eofYqmk3nK4gEfo7dm1jNPWl/8YjnVZoJZOTV7gQd Xr4LDOdxcurheeYck+XW24mAcFljt15ZzegYkuf8oe0CY5QYTs3f7ibP7KIDOL7IiXlv vAXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530eVUsGJERx0Tygx1CEsxX7/tmZhJN7UBw0ZHly6bi3DR6Swh/Q KcKdK5zLuSTObJiDSRfcQt2goMknjnzhlyyaDbg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8K+nLY7HuqGLHNyABONhW3KZ4lxKkL4Bd0wKP0XqWL4hk/R2jNuPqnm0/E3tRR92XwvWQlXc9uzeH7SpOBVg= X-Received: by 2002:a67:dc8b:: with SMTP id g11mr1725315vsk.26.1631196751970; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:12:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:12:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:12:38 -0000 > I don't think it really matters. > I am not aware of any successful appeal ever, so write whatever seems expedient, Then perhaps you should look at the data. There have been many appeals that have been upheld. Barry > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> thanks for the suggestions. Please see https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those in. >> >> On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: >> > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if >> > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA >> > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall >> > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of >> > its own choosing. >> > >> > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to >> > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first >> > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the >> > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to >> > change that process. >> >> This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on the current text in BCP45, which says: >> >> The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms >> appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, >> or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a >> pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the >> overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether >> particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these complaints. >> >> I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a minimal bis, I didn't make that change. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:12:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 5BAEC3A135F; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE193A135E; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9l7mw_UUDec8; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f54.google.com (mail-vs1-f54.google.com [209.85.217.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C33A3A1355; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f54.google.com with SMTP id a21so1635650vsp.12; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:12:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uzF733x50H93o0/DMPphYr+7G7Y40pHKsZqwsqgRc4o=; b=cp42Nkbh1RoceMgC2mCL88TOxkksMk9udZR5ZzhUEIMjzRA4qqS73v763wOVEgsJy0 26oOfvaoWnC122m1zrd8F0V0aKCz/K173KoNcIRT25MAUBv3a/o6F/lX0ChNt9fi4oKo yBuZA/l7vcyzClGIRfOb2V3V6Fz2WKftO1/VGnUeyhBi6+DBuDUsJ3ibq480O/M0RtK0 m8Tw2I+44Fsgri67dxYg6/MWbN5eofYqmk3nK4gEfo7dm1jNPWl/8YjnVZoJZOTV7gQd Xr4LDOdxcurheeYck+XW24mAcFljt15ZzegYkuf8oe0CY5QYTs3f7ibP7KIDOL7IiXlv vAXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530eVUsGJERx0Tygx1CEsxX7/tmZhJN7UBw0ZHly6bi3DR6Swh/Q KcKdK5zLuSTObJiDSRfcQt2goMknjnzhlyyaDbg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8K+nLY7HuqGLHNyABONhW3KZ4lxKkL4Bd0wKP0XqWL4hk/R2jNuPqnm0/E3tRR92XwvWQlXc9uzeH7SpOBVg= X-Received: by 2002:a67:dc8b:: with SMTP id g11mr1725315vsk.26.1631196751970; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:12:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:12:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: Lars Eggert , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210909141238.5BAEC3A135F@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:12:39 -0000 > I don't think it really matters. > I am not aware of any successful appeal ever, so write whatever seems expedient, Then perhaps you should look at the data. There have been many appeals that have been upheld. Barry > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 11:51 PM Lars Eggert wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> thanks for the suggestions. Please see https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/6 for a PR that rolls those in. >> >> On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: >> > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if >> > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA >> > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall >> > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of >> > its own choosing. >> > >> > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to >> > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first >> > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the >> > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to >> > change that process. >> >> This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on the current text in BCP45, which says: >> >> The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms >> appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, >> or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a >> pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the >> overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether >> particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these complaints. >> >> I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a minimal bis, I didn't make that change. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:18:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006243A13B0; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d3tncnxxUA0J; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f47.google.com (mail-vs1-f47.google.com [209.85.217.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B14703A13A1; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f47.google.com with SMTP id l9so1661019vsb.8; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5M4/tTK2Rt+ToeKYUcVkjyUoD/HuHD0GGJJWAv+Xu7A=; b=jIhQysWtGUoQKTyogcV1EpJSyT48Vug0vt/fy1Eg7u6YnoNhTFZ0rcNtNkyTdi+9rf qSM59jYngexoy8sXL0SDSg8f5VJ6rDNyljmJiXR72RU1lBss5PAWvLNZxzxm1qXAjLA6 qVqLcDjoAFdHbKIm6rF/nrXhkzTLW54w07aS8HbfeCU8ushNWjXiwtt+7bp8f3WaLMLs 3PZ3uaT7DUL6autwd/W5TbsMo/fS5u6LTTGAMkwOUjQimJS+aTe4fag7t+kSuQJz5F8S XiilWuPe9IyWy0EmX+mlk1hchP2qTYsNi1Kmf1RPFoD044HUWa0QfzBccRLi329yilfP 8jXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530//TvGhJheaG0SReqDo2PsUpW7RhHb6BLDidGjKy4xG0X3FXkB DS3Ei5MHAJk9mB+JhpQKaor4EHYSGR/4dRz0BBAkC5XGZ9o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwS+zszusFTKgcmoqRKfttCvfehOxPI0SXsCG8SbV055eQu8L2h93U+mglZaAFwjHt/wDnZEq9LKxJwTPemKxw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:e4b:: with SMTP id p11mr1718408vst.30.1631197109586; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:18:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:18:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:18:35 -0000 > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > > its own choosing. > > > > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > > change that process. > > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on the current text in BCP45, which says: > > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because > otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these > complaints. > > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it > would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a > minimal bis, I didn't make that change. But you've already changed "complaints" to "could be appealed", which moves from something generic and undefined to something formal and documented. And, in fact, this document is so markedly different to RFC 3005 that I couldn't use a DIFF at all, so I see the changes as not minimal. Please re-consider this point, and make it clear that the normal appeals process applies. It absolutely makes the most sense for people to start with the IETF Chair -- or at the least, the IESG -- before going to the IAB. Appeals work best when there's more than one stage to them. Barry From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:18:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 76FE73A13B2; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006243A13B0; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d3tncnxxUA0J; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f47.google.com (mail-vs1-f47.google.com [209.85.217.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B14703A13A1; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f47.google.com with SMTP id l9so1661019vsb.8; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:18:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5M4/tTK2Rt+ToeKYUcVkjyUoD/HuHD0GGJJWAv+Xu7A=; b=jIhQysWtGUoQKTyogcV1EpJSyT48Vug0vt/fy1Eg7u6YnoNhTFZ0rcNtNkyTdi+9rf qSM59jYngexoy8sXL0SDSg8f5VJ6rDNyljmJiXR72RU1lBss5PAWvLNZxzxm1qXAjLA6 qVqLcDjoAFdHbKIm6rF/nrXhkzTLW54w07aS8HbfeCU8ushNWjXiwtt+7bp8f3WaLMLs 3PZ3uaT7DUL6autwd/W5TbsMo/fS5u6LTTGAMkwOUjQimJS+aTe4fag7t+kSuQJz5F8S XiilWuPe9IyWy0EmX+mlk1hchP2qTYsNi1Kmf1RPFoD044HUWa0QfzBccRLi329yilfP 8jXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530//TvGhJheaG0SReqDo2PsUpW7RhHb6BLDidGjKy4xG0X3FXkB DS3Ei5MHAJk9mB+JhpQKaor4EHYSGR/4dRz0BBAkC5XGZ9o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwS+zszusFTKgcmoqRKfttCvfehOxPI0SXsCG8SbV055eQu8L2h93U+mglZaAFwjHt/wDnZEq9LKxJwTPemKxw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:e4b:: with SMTP id p11mr1718408vst.30.1631197109586; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:18:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:18:18 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210909141835.76FE73A13B2@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:18:36 -0000 > On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > > the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA > > team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall > > then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of > > its own choosing. > > > > Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to > > keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first > > appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the > > plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to > > change that process. > > This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on the current text in BCP45, which says: > > The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms > appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, > or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a > pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the > overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether > particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints > ^^^^^^^^^^ > regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because > otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these > complaints. > > I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it > would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a > minimal bis, I didn't make that change. But you've already changed "complaints" to "could be appealed", which moves from something generic and undefined to something formal and documented. And, in fact, this document is so markedly different to RFC 3005 that I couldn't use a DIFF at all, so I see the changes as not minimal. Please re-consider this point, and make it clear that the normal appeals process applies. It absolutely makes the most sense for people to start with the IETF Chair -- or at the least, the IESG -- before going to the IAB. Appeals work best when there's more than one stage to them. Barry From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:23:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6943A1406 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:23:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JN2sfvXstA2X for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com (mail-vs1-f42.google.com [209.85.217.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 588243A1405 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id s25so1675025vsa.9 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aovL1HJKnNynuMIR9NBzpAye1xNprLHAzsp8Mk6pQpg=; b=PDtJdQ+M/f7O+yO+DrO0ZCGZieszCltveuNjTyx0bEtztlmtACmJV57CO6VygRTxEF Mz5O0mUoMLxoVlp6lrjeBjDX06f75I86o0oX/n0vNGsfndhurP70yynTwaVBHPuAVucl uWhuUiBU7E0E2L1q9vX/+qYdQ/Aw1/gxz3oBOsX1H59pKIu7P5Oy4I9tNrZCst4auojT ZtaNPIYafpQlsAIU3C2inC5ROUKAurmnvZxjqtKCRWNY7FmpbCwFyM3D0Cu8bn+Gla3N BE6T8zGyKqiXKTbobpbTo+9unE1yB60Me66TGW2XCSsA9YxhapAkfjVzENxu+afAGyB6 3zaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532sFDjCjY7hI+KQbdF8W+ELhezR/CH1gV5mhUKH0b/jUsUDiANc qZCb7lT/vB57FzyEl/4RPLFbe8dPpvZhndnX9Rc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzeDG7PUBolRKpO4Hyn3iqV4h0g/50a+bFmL4A+vtrc9a3ofV2bkhNa27egNfHS8EcBpNNqHrbpHdvgGc62FEU= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ee19:: with SMTP id f25mr1939444vsp.30.1631197427314; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:23:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:23:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:23:50 -0000 Thanks for addressing my comments, Rich. On the open question: > Sections 4.8 and 4.9 don't try to talk about how the members (of the > Trust and the LLC Board) are selected or confirmed, and simply refer > to the BCPs. It's probably best if 4.3 and 4.4 follow that as well > (making my previous paragraph moot). > > I think the summary that's there is worthwhile to readers. I suppose I > could add how the LLC and Trust Board is picked. One argument against > that is, like above, it's not something many deal with. Thoughts? I'm ambivalent. On the one hand, I like to have things specified in one place, so we don't have to update multiple things when something changes. On the other, these details aren't likely to change, so I don't see much harm in summarising them here. So for me, I'd leave it to your judgment how to keep the document internally consistent. Barry From nobody Thu Sep 9 07:51:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458C53A1581 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6dY52hUFSWFv for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A47973A15A8 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Thu, 9 Sep 2021 07:50:37 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3axctrk8m4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:50:37 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:50:36 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:50:36 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Colin Perkins CC: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHXpP4ZJ8W5+XbTdUKtkJb5GVECR6ubrF8AgABUBAD//8m5AA== Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:50:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <163069758337.6471.7554165463937904967@ietfa.amsl.com> <61847102-F995-431C-9F01-91583AD6BA07@csperkins.org> <119D3098-2C79-4C0B-9147-6AFE723605E5@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <119D3098-2C79-4C0B-9147-6AFE723605E5@csperkins.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.53.21090101 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l22sm3527149pgo.45.2021.09.09.14.54.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:54:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Barry Leiba , Lars Eggert Cc: GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:54:04 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:54:18 -0000 Nit pick: > It absolutely makes the most > sense for people to start with the IETF Chair Actually, appeals (from WGs) start with an AD, so maybe this one should start with the General Area AD? (I know it's the same person, but wearing a slightly different hat.) Better, perhaps: start with an AD, normally the General Area AD. If the nature of the appeal personally involves the IETF Chair, the appeal should start with some other AD. Regards Brian On 10-Sep-21 02:18, Barry Leiba wrote: >> On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if >>> the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA >>> team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall >>> then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of >>> its own choosing. >>> >>> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to >>> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first >>> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the >>> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to >>> change that process. >> >> This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on the current text in BCP45, which says: >> >> The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms >> appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, >> or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a >> pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the >> overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether >> particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because >> otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these >> complaints. >> >> I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it >> would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a >> minimal bis, I didn't make that change. > > But you've already changed "complaints" to "could be appealed", which > moves from something generic and undefined to something formal and > documented. And, in fact, this document is so markedly different to > RFC 3005 that I couldn't use a DIFF at all, so I see the changes as > not minimal. Please re-consider this point, and make it clear that > the normal appeals process applies. It absolutely makes the most > sense for people to start with the IETF Chair -- or at the least, the > IESG -- before going to the IAB. Appeals work best when there's more > than one stage to them. > > Barry > From nobody Thu Sep 9 14:54:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id DACE83A0C1F; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130A73A0C1E; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:54:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8j_SKSPuhwfj; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E53B3A0C1A; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id n34so2955014pfv.7; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vUfgh6lQ9LqRrH9+kmfCiqsmfIiGSiNfygyIJhuXiBM=; b=e+BANToNkmyorSZi2439UI9iF4veH3E1BXzpOcFzOQpwRlJ3Cg5JsFOm8eVg8R7v8h +Nr+lk14BSrASVOgCWCQN0TD8VApwofss4YJJW7Qkdfsparid70hB2KIyAxdC1HVqs38 931ijh5qK/prm+OdWEBHkUl6Xp7wC5ro4A8ezynkd+H5MLgHUGQ5FcwxSkQgqhwrzl8w DD1/OLZjw4XUlJTK04G/8Avviz/8+q3WC6PEH8DDqq4Ri+O9JHXCnPUyTBC605VD04MG LJuI7g2kma/B6AggzS35jKHAiVjRq/a7cEOVkOxLGhYrSHWUGZwdyl9NQWDJTa3FH5U7 e8Ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vUfgh6lQ9LqRrH9+kmfCiqsmfIiGSiNfygyIJhuXiBM=; b=PLn75yWfUEufcaRT/es/QSvdtxd0I5Impazk2hZGL8j30efgI0UdD/fqLjD0ZRCqzY 8NGyEVWvrcfuijEnCx6HZtiobw1Op52GWFXRf9neqGwcy4m6iJSGYCa3BpWdijpWvfLN OUWBWmF0Zn/dSGYdxM+5EzE17yzvvRDy8eRr3Fd8r3AdYkh4+wljTFgO97WpKtx2vNbg m/n5sE5IKg7uvWl2amaeNTpXllJhN9eboK0QjSbrkd4ESvkhPTX/teJbtyUXRw8V3e4a C9g5fXLp3wo9n8HDL9UnzuRcwLhImxPDpD0jwzFH+5y96ieYJtA4i7Em/9GlXP7dP7us PxVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338xdykiEkZ51TCiJnaHBj5F3c81vMacjFahY2rnpL+KsGGw9+p 4jgGw+ngEh5p5V/djF5LntdPPnKWDBQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwy83pnsbppDHs+vVM8OnQLgBYTm6rYa0Z3Yis1CQClX63OqZwhWoWjyfWfNpg5MBZZqK7VUA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7542:0:b0:434:dfe5:8b37 with SMTP id q63-20020a627542000000b00434dfe58b37mr120386pfc.84.1631224450332; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l22sm3527149pgo.45.2021.09.09.14.54.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:54:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Barry Leiba , Lars Eggert Cc: GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:54:04 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210909215417.DACE83A0C1F@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 14:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 21:54:18 -0000 Nit pick: > It absolutely makes the most > sense for people to start with the IETF Chair Actually, appeals (from WGs) start with an AD, so maybe this one should start with the General Area AD? (I know it's the same person, but wearing a slightly different hat.) Better, perhaps: start with an AD, normally the General Area AD. If the nature of the appeal personally involves the IETF Chair, the appeal should start with some other AD. Regards Brian On 10-Sep-21 02:18, Barry Leiba wrote: >> On 2021-9-8, at 23:41, Barry Leiba wrote: >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if >>> the IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA >>> team - any SAA decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall >>> then review the situation and attempt to resolve it in a manner of >>> its own choosing. >>> >>> Why are we varying from the normal appeal process here? One reason to >>> keep the IETF Chair out of the operation is exactly so the first >>> appeal *can* go to the IETF Chair, as it normally would. Then to the >>> plenary IESG, and then to the IAB. I don't see a good reason to >>> change that process. >> >> This was also brought up by Rob during his AD review. This text is based on the current text in BCP45, which says: >> >> The IETF Chair, the IETF Executive Director, or a sergeant-at-arms >> appointed by the Chair is empowered to restrict posting by a person, >> or of a thread, when the content is inappropriate and represents a >> pattern of abuse. They are encouraged to take into account the >> overall nature of the postings by an individual and whether >> particular postings are an aberration or typical. Complaints >> ^^^^^^^^^^ >> regarding their decisions should be referred to the IAB. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> I assumed that "complaints" were supposed to be appeals, because >> otherwise it's undefined what the IAB was supposed to do with these >> complaints. >> >> I'm fully OK with using the regular appeals process here, but since it >> would be a change from the original BCP45 and the intent was to do a >> minimal bis, I didn't make that change. > > But you've already changed "complaints" to "could be appealed", which > moves from something generic and undefined to something formal and > documented. And, in fact, this document is so markedly different to > RFC 3005 that I couldn't use a DIFF at all, so I see the changes as > not minimal. Please re-consider this point, and make it clear that > the normal appeals process applies. It absolutely makes the most > sense for people to start with the IETF Chair -- or at the least, the > IESG -- before going to the IAB. Appeals work best when there's more > than one stage to them. > > Barry > From nobody Thu Sep 9 15:57:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349AD3A0C7F for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vhbaf9gjtI-g for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D328E3A0C7E for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id m21-20020a17090a859500b00197688449c4so119760pjn.0 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:57:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:subject:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=C8GOF19OHhHe2XVU9OGL1OusqUmUHWVcCbUIwwFqKwc=; b=G0HnvojWzFdvkCl2H1gxkrYjH+87Y4LoWKUuihHN8dGQGsjPOCB2W/uYPLg4votHiw HdR66UieKjzNXWCnTf7rLRuNG2Z31Ts2sAC5dmRdokXGF9En+mkxS6yfkGRbk2dqdzeh VATs5EKz/mJlp6y5y+5cI/e9lstRR5d8yyuy5f2wzgHMDIDnEWvwnF/lbrhW1pATyiwD ZAqsAaiOMuzdpKTgtBBH0GhEv7qeGVMlbixMq97X4BTUJGLQ5T+BYeDNc8VMgJdY0yBw +VVt6NoDZQoZm9CHHIVRWeQOm5iHYOQJ+eqX/mmMO8wJKb28aOTmSDNSBKPzITsa9QQJ ByxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=C8GOF19OHhHe2XVU9OGL1OusqUmUHWVcCbUIwwFqKwc=; b=HH+V3IZTDj/mLyZnyTs4VNaOySQmmBbxCxs8pb16/XYX0zWfy/Z5VkbwqHaqEHw8oj 1jAEGTirMKOvrnvBzQ81LCPdZbRdtcIrq7/HbliOW6z6Ogakhz/H30zxdaQITMViD53b 5fvbqFYDBfdoMbMkP0DmJgFAF19aV2lUvol4GDRJkY2bJjYQTslYRsNLcfb+C66aNkxJ /Y0hWyxi//ufq5v+4aETWYMkEJ+jvojSwNSQy3A1QgNfvKzHsPlB92YXQBYrMb3qL0Sx K183A5b+wH3243uvPVc+QEm5hOeBw6D0m31lurKbVxbYdFDAWz+/A+uF8f831CDT+5aB IdyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531bAkk2XDzC8E22ofACjrrlsNUpkpwfFC5U3Auycs8MeZlyC6JC VIMv+OAgE9qZzPMIRGa5/qFGoFrqacE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwwfaUZiXw1EcJNVj0CVxAekPHIXa8lSK5WTVK4G8nSqr7TBnLkbxaUpl4aXHBBhhxm2VRU8Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1a4c:: with SMTP id 12mr6134382pjl.195.1631228253113; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fr17sm3091664pjb.17.2021.09.09.15.57.31 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:57:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <163122787039.11607.12934187743015017362@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <6cf36794-8915-8b47-9923-f6b7a158bfab@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:57:29 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <163122787039.11607.12934187743015017362@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-01.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 22:57:39 -0000 This is not me treading on the IAB's toes, it's a side-effect of the RFC Editor futures work. Because it purports to update a BCP, gendispatch probably needs to be aware of it. I'm not asking for any action at this time. Brian -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-01.txt Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:51:10 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor Model Author : Brian E. Carpenter Filename : draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-01.txt Pages : 3 Date : 2021-09-09 Abstract: This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be consistent with the new model for the RFC Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced- model). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-01.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-01 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Thu Sep 9 16:24:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA913A0EEA for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zf-XyFjQxGqo for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62b.google.com (mail-pl1-x62b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75CDC3A0EE8 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62b.google.com with SMTP id d18so2124006pll.11 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 16:24:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pCZy+ArhmYDrIuTvzeEdja4Pu1krafViEI0v/cxk0o4=; b=O59MdXF1VnS6gN6cpeTlHyXI2tyCDApZT5srstbArnHlHfrHy0sVDPKd1BnBpwBAGU 9oZWPIaRR7eIGwJkkUA//A0ctSbdtCpkQJtFKBXw2p4u0ihWDiT8fAXpSPaFYwHsKmfL vsLmU824mXnSVmML01P3uDD9wrtCvinNKTgt/lAyvIGh9myzMkE0t7ke6IWYc/7714uk GN/hUMlX03Zmojx7EGHd/uMSSCv4R+lbKddhm25R0xttWPRThRNEtsQRUv9/Qw4rT3UJ mXAYFOrU4Sa24xX9wQW8GKQBNtorgfS6UTm9wGk1oEFOvW44ES7kwIW02ZB/WEI83aLg z5cQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pCZy+ArhmYDrIuTvzeEdja4Pu1krafViEI0v/cxk0o4=; b=S37TVrwN6uxQdgHC+X/CI2YefQI3W3/O78XYVny8qvpCVc3WrQNbE7AoGIbKpfLGKk KJQYlM9jpZO0iVxmhxmU1XODXlH4JJnTPQd+/2vj36mRt1Iwvr19sEAoka2x6/SDAUxN mPeTGuo8vXN3/MAxbi/fWLT6tBxMx1ImKo7NhcWZF0lR9qqkYpyNoSitsUAFOP+Jp5+j GE6nJgeNRKf9E4pckihJGx09dtW3aZmMIV+hJRW2L8XhsPjeI4u8+dCwQ8fSen0pM/Mr qBnV92kM4bchsbf4SkJGGN8ZAnv1a7aAcR+JDuELZeJW4xT8c+GHaVJxC/5ZJmA++z6C oYJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZVuvUiNlmPVtub79y5UhZzqzBn0TmEuK2/UxDd9H9TeU75p1r unNExPun0xgO92ih8lInoF1ouUGgfeU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqk5ayBFWfaUnLZpCON9bJbY7sJO6Mr7MrgCrZzWx5PSp4EccABgHnXElpAasntPAkBg10zg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4f46:: with SMTP id w6mr6134284pjl.9.1631229872260; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 16:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v13sm3304378pfm.16.2021.09.09.16.24.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 16:24:31 -0700 (PDT) To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9ad2f98b-1b4d-0c98-0708-3d1beb96a2d5@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:24:27 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:24:38 -0000 On 10-Sep-21 00:54, Salz, Rich wrote: > > By writing it all down, Rich seems to have shown that some of these relationships are absurdly complex. > > I don't see it as absurdly complex, far from it. You need to separate the "control plane" (how people are picked for positions) from the "data plane" (how documents flow through to become RFC's). Perhaps the doc could be more clear about that. What do you think is absurdly complex, ideally in the data plane part. > >> We have a plate of our own spaghetti to sort out first: https://www.ietf.org/standards/process/informal/ > > Ideally, once this draft gets adopted and then published, that page basically goes away and points to the document. Oh no, it doesn't. Have you ever actually contemplated how many process-related documents the IETF has? (At a rough count, 75.) It is truly impressive. The list is below my signature. > We already have the Tao. Write things once. The Tao nowhere near covers all you might need to know. It's the IETF for Dummies, really. Brian [RFC1311] [RFC2026] [RFC2028] [RFC2119] [RFC2360] [RFC2418] [RFC2438] [RFC2850] [RFC2860] [RFC3005] [RFC3233] [RFC3552] [RFC3677] [RFC3683] [RFC3710] [RFC3933] [RFC3934] [RFC3935] [RFC3967] [RFC4052] [RFC4053] [RFC4181] [RFC4633] [RFC4691] [RFC4775] [RFC4841] [RFC4845] [RFC4846] [RFC4858] [RFC4858] [RFC4897] [RFC5378] [RFC5378] [RFC5434] [RFC5657] [RFC5704] [RFC5706] [RFC5742] [RFC5743] [RFC5744] [RFC5745] [RFC6410] [RFC6576] [RFC6701] [RFC6702] [RFC6771] [RFC7120] [RFC7154] [RFC7221] [RFC7282] [RFC7322] [RFC7475] [RFC7649] [RFC7841] [RFC7942] [RFC8067] [RFC8126] [RFC8174] [RFC8179] [RFC8711] [RFC8712] [RFC8713] [RFC8714] [RFC8715] [RFC8717] [RFC8718] [RFC8719] [RFC8720] [RFC8721] [RFC8722] [RFC8728] [RFC8729] [RFC8730] [RFC8788] [RFC8789] From nobody Thu Sep 9 16:58:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129C13A07B1 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:58:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKz9As5Qcwr7 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CEE53A07D4 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id w1so200953ilv.1 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VENwlaSRa2Bwp50P+nu9I6KTMaHSFfqVyIRuXBVq3Z4=; b=GYLpGXy0sHRniIVdvYk7EWyg4EeBilIBWZpU6xunUqWePRaCLSHVLLChg4Lnxj9H4o pATDzx+0UHvXmHgkxiQzHlBjjOsFpfS9Xcast8KrMAqFJTzfpPcqv8NP+43bsTZGOCKM LdcnhtLrwOrg5pfeo+IT5PLDxzceJNO/so8bIfbqg6TeONc6g8I6Wu2qZGYtqaAG9Pg6 h7yD0b+eQPICByBvJTwHaxLcVOL1gHoW4HFRhecy2KxVbQTnR89+mWnKU2v7xQufL2G4 riXZBMIPHd9NOdKjhQpp2x+Su7sAhFi+V4RxjN3oFOv6hgXfDCodHRbrIggvBgKDlwOj HCaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VENwlaSRa2Bwp50P+nu9I6KTMaHSFfqVyIRuXBVq3Z4=; b=75sRSgtm3s7bxxl7A9bmatB1sUAkb29Fdcl+AXb/v11pGG+/lMMJM+EHfu2sztnZo8 ZE2Hdp+fsLaa0gou7EUUCn3dtq7OKhGH3zbqslUYsmy/RSu7uqjX1siGaBRRezrML+CE 1Y2stbhQ5oz6FMuurjoei0vmgCQalgeAMJZUMcpfDFtTjuvMDlmOE9q82NdF6LhNJvnQ tIJ1A4zoZ7qJ87zwpqn8Y4yQLbZhjpTh5RJ6tf9SUc3oUKfH7hwPcP0n59zRcYhl1b7n YkUEANygrasxLJjROU6MP55Ds/wTaS6zIizGxIZp3zQjjfkR6HTbG4idi3cxy56gAuQh wS3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mi8wZEKb1hhwe6tloB/RsyIUEeQaBkkdScYjTGzMNZXHJM2GF ZKKHkDTT30oN8Ud/cHD2EU75Vp67nh7l9Fhix1Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfTy6i/6nAmwudFNY3lIobQqHWYKVxJkVElr6yitZcisLGIcVUDAyG3XIMkscc4u3dGYqAAtvwTyvmc0Zvn24= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:e03:: with SMTP id a3mr4279748ilk.144.1631231888817; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 16:58:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> <9ad2f98b-1b4d-0c98-0708-3d1beb96a2d5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9ad2f98b-1b4d-0c98-0708-3d1beb96a2d5@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 16:57:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000047828705cb98c549" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:58:23 -0000 --00000000000047828705cb98c549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 4:24 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Oh no, it doesn't. Have you ever actually contemplated how many > process-related documents the IETF has? (At a rough count, 75.) It is truly > impressive. The list is below my signature. > > > We already have the Tao. Write things once. > > The Tao nowhere near covers all you might need to know. It's the IETF for > Dummies, really. > Fully agree (with the caveat that we are all dummies, present company and myself especially). I think Brian's message does a better job of communicating what I was trying to say. The document is still worth doing, and I support it. thanks, Rob --00000000000047828705cb98c549 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 4:24 PM Brian E Ca= rpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh no, it doesn't. Have you ever actually contemplated how many process= -related documents the IETF has? (At a rough count, 75.) It is truly impres= sive. The list is below my signature.

> We already have the Tao. Write things once.

The Tao nowhere near covers all you might need to know. It's the IETF f= or Dummies, really.

Fully agree (with t= he caveat=C2=A0that we are all dummies, present company and myself especial= ly).

I think Brian's message does a better job= of communicating what I was trying to say.

The do= cument is still worth doing, and I support it.

tha= nks,
Rob

--00000000000047828705cb98c549-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 00:10:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC903A1F66; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oWSZnP9dhfYA; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6216A3A1F6C; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b985:1a3c:2ad3:5907]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DDF0600373; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:10:31 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631257831; bh=I9iJAJpJWzer+kgkctkigVDTVOXwLr/82M3Mthi8f/I=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=lBjefJEyZNL9LridHbkTWptDPQ/YjZ6FI0kq2256SWbaqBb7MR5yamqVxoBYB+qni 1vsYoxXZ79CKN2WmNJjsrq3x/EzKZLOc1R80kc2m0YNB74F/JRqvfHIpk8tjUh2/uQ VysZfzUCJzROxaSUwQdwtmyu8eBfhS09aGzct25g= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:10:29 +0300 In-Reply-To: <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> Cc: Barry Leiba , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List To: Brian E Carpenter References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 6DDF0600373.A16FF X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:10:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current = change: --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the = IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any = SAA -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the = situation -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions = by the +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per = {{!RFC2026}}. # Security Considerations Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE7BOUACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeOtA//Xzas4/I2k24WXNqJ91PY3axce3/RjN4yfNZEipqbM+PmoEWfFA9EVO9y W45O3nyn9Fak1a2vtt6EXAmjH5NzyoiRORJfKamjiJ4I0ylaGZbVbfprlXNUu3hz NC44D9nCXhLIjiXpq/IXNbWXTYDf5CU7pv2V2fCSuA2HgGQiW4sZ7QeU65BA0D/D azIrInd3KFAPuUtoz+1MCDislqUrwqasqT2h2H56Emk1VK/QilKxsB2+VicaWYCj wdjmbc92WPMKMBG1pfY7J/4UlUNbO+FjaY8NgFssrrmDVSkESKMZZZ+OZ5ReF2qb DQv4rV2zBuUnEkbvcafESkhN2/N2fWmcDrBLpgWYovUENufTdwlNJtD4u5D6oWc0 9NlXUHkOajg55PG7dJspLw/ed56TDTWDWNKfjc7GYr6SHbw1pEK43N520YyLiscT iI5BFrVSZQspruexliezRAFZO0xOLyPLHxTBIbQnU2coz3smYzuKa8C0UzQy0n8v 7pEc967A2kjGtPsE081axoZnxD2g5uVh6zjjixmEmhiBI4HMhtXtDQV6HZQ0GFRo G//cDrkMrmxn3p8Rw1r3FH89rfAf880ch+n7z8dslaERSSYahdF09cvZ7KTcAiNW eOj5oZNwhUvlgBenXwgC9QPpC0DBZdNxBGUq08RdedmQ9FVgXwQ= =wluD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 00:11:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 2037E3A1F6C; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC903A1F66; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oWSZnP9dhfYA; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6216A3A1F6C; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b985:1a3c:2ad3:5907]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DDF0600373; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:10:31 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631257831; bh=I9iJAJpJWzer+kgkctkigVDTVOXwLr/82M3Mthi8f/I=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=lBjefJEyZNL9LridHbkTWptDPQ/YjZ6FI0kq2256SWbaqBb7MR5yamqVxoBYB+qni 1vsYoxXZ79CKN2WmNJjsrq3x/EzKZLOc1R80kc2m0YNB74F/JRqvfHIpk8tjUh2/uQ VysZfzUCJzROxaSUwQdwtmyu8eBfhS09aGzct25g= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:10:29 +0300 In-Reply-To: <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> Cc: Barry Leiba , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List To: Brian E Carpenter References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: 6DDF0600373.A16FF X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210910071053.2037E3A1F6C@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 00:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:10:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in = https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current = change: --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the = IETF Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any = SAA -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the = situation -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions = by the +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per = {{!RFC2026}}. # Security Considerations Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmE7BOUACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeOtA//Xzas4/I2k24WXNqJ91PY3axce3/RjN4yfNZEipqbM+PmoEWfFA9EVO9y W45O3nyn9Fak1a2vtt6EXAmjH5NzyoiRORJfKamjiJ4I0ylaGZbVbfprlXNUu3hz NC44D9nCXhLIjiXpq/IXNbWXTYDf5CU7pv2V2fCSuA2HgGQiW4sZ7QeU65BA0D/D azIrInd3KFAPuUtoz+1MCDislqUrwqasqT2h2H56Emk1VK/QilKxsB2+VicaWYCj wdjmbc92WPMKMBG1pfY7J/4UlUNbO+FjaY8NgFssrrmDVSkESKMZZZ+OZ5ReF2qb DQv4rV2zBuUnEkbvcafESkhN2/N2fWmcDrBLpgWYovUENufTdwlNJtD4u5D6oWc0 9NlXUHkOajg55PG7dJspLw/ed56TDTWDWNKfjc7GYr6SHbw1pEK43N520YyLiscT iI5BFrVSZQspruexliezRAFZO0xOLyPLHxTBIbQnU2coz3smYzuKa8C0UzQy0n8v 7pEc967A2kjGtPsE081axoZnxD2g5uVh6zjjixmEmhiBI4HMhtXtDQV6HZQ0GFRo G//cDrkMrmxn3p8Rw1r3FH89rfAf880ch+n7z8dslaERSSYahdF09cvZ7KTcAiNW eOj5oZNwhUvlgBenXwgC9QPpC0DBZdNxBGUq08RdedmQ9FVgXwQ= =wluD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7CD9D981-43E4-44C9-9F85-D5655551B6C7-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 04:01:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49623A114D; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SE22b2eSC5Gx; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f50.google.com (mail-vs1-f50.google.com [209.85.217.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7F563A113E; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f50.google.com with SMTP id s25so1182635vsa.9; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4bvHQdJCYHVXVkI0JSv1+AL5HuAa8JBubOpMJsfnA5Q=; b=WO7HaVfv1WnD5i60iMrzFzOUh25FQ5B/lXC8lKtXoWUsA0U/ZpbiOKHDRQVOvQDVEJ wMesHwlZWJojEqL8nlSyhV09d5uSpiMC93UII2eyNAvJWAhfete8FhpvFDbfQ08/G3WF zLgFzBbBge4UtgXoxU43/eKg9RT8R/l5acHuOwLPayCOXjkIHYMT2ku5ej+6Di2xZMl1 nu1DFWULVLgaMv4wmG4hDlTbZQj5+VIIaziOL9giDwqXFF9ePln+UJRaQ7S/S+hOs+ex 4pATgeFrufz6mjIwIrjslqKS8w9kuMJ/6SHyoX1Ruzla9LhJMiBItROyHp4U6TjOGifH nvfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oi6Yc1tIcCznC/yFWGx7Nh3VKiQvpWx7+3RzeusujauwYs/Iz P2ygHCAa3k4Hsj3uNV3ZigmXHAVV79FMm6raX+k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDe2rB7/AlElOIHa6pHkA1Fr7qAP23WLJfPY9edbaMt6++5Kw9uthWAiP2o2fLicjPj2aD7cwd2nfsMbySjFk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:dc8b:: with SMTP id g11mr5081500vsk.26.1631271710274; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> From: Barry Leiba Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:01:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Brian E Carpenter , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:01:57 -0000 That works for me, Lars, and thanks. I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. Barry On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change: > > --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the IETF > Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any SAA > -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the situation > -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions by the > +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026}}. > > # Security Considerations > > Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > > Thanks, > Lars > From nobody Fri Sep 10 04:02:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 7085F3A1150; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A49623A114D; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SE22b2eSC5Gx; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-f50.google.com (mail-vs1-f50.google.com [209.85.217.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7F563A113E; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-f50.google.com with SMTP id s25so1182635vsa.9; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4bvHQdJCYHVXVkI0JSv1+AL5HuAa8JBubOpMJsfnA5Q=; b=WO7HaVfv1WnD5i60iMrzFzOUh25FQ5B/lXC8lKtXoWUsA0U/ZpbiOKHDRQVOvQDVEJ wMesHwlZWJojEqL8nlSyhV09d5uSpiMC93UII2eyNAvJWAhfete8FhpvFDbfQ08/G3WF zLgFzBbBge4UtgXoxU43/eKg9RT8R/l5acHuOwLPayCOXjkIHYMT2ku5ej+6Di2xZMl1 nu1DFWULVLgaMv4wmG4hDlTbZQj5+VIIaziOL9giDwqXFF9ePln+UJRaQ7S/S+hOs+ex 4pATgeFrufz6mjIwIrjslqKS8w9kuMJ/6SHyoX1Ruzla9LhJMiBItROyHp4U6TjOGifH nvfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oi6Yc1tIcCznC/yFWGx7Nh3VKiQvpWx7+3RzeusujauwYs/Iz P2ygHCAa3k4Hsj3uNV3ZigmXHAVV79FMm6raX+k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDe2rB7/AlElOIHa6pHkA1Fr7qAP23WLJfPY9edbaMt6++5Kw9uthWAiP2o2fLicjPj2aD7cwd2nfsMbySjFk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:dc8b:: with SMTP id g11mr5081500vsk.26.1631271710274; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> From: Barry Leiba Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 07:01:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Brian E Carpenter , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Resent-From: Resent-To: gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com, lars@eggert.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210910110157.7085F3A1150@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:01:58 -0000 That works for me, Lars, and thanks. I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. Barry On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change: > > --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > > Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the IETF > Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any SAA > -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the situation > -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions by the > +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026}}. > > # Security Considerations > > Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > > Thanks, > Lars > From nobody Fri Sep 10 04:35:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059443A090D for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:35:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OV8s1gMwY43e for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 082B93A0914 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 04:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011::6] ([IPv6:2001:420:c0c0:1011:0:0:0:6]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 18ABZ0DI042104 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:35:00 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1631273701; bh=KQL4jC6znVSgiwXji5ZyA6tDSJy8AItAEEvzITkHc8s=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=czCvWlGu/6OENiqic0KrtUU4XiypMF/z4y0iehcvpLBhYUGdMA6SAshxqICbUTrrY 54NiDth8MkK/0stG/aUCaB0c0Ut51gyqXbIU7D91y4036N1C3BMF2QRNnxZyFoc/ah H6mz/vwDcOZyHZC+0R8HhjPHDpVm/Ohbzyq5YmwE= To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:34:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cLbRDBtZcuJIE79MmI7uCeidFGZ0xPzaG" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 11:35:12 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --cLbRDBtZcuJIE79MmI7uCeidFGZ0xPzaG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QbI6Tfp74xMPa5XYLq1EDyqB81E5tTyYG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: --QbI6Tfp74xMPa5XYLq1EDyqB81E5tTyYG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US As I wrote earlier, I support this draft going forward, and I think the=20 best way is AD-sponsored. The one aspect of this that I mentioned to Rich and Lars was that I=20 think we should look at whether this document should be looked at=20 normatively or whether it is meant as an informational document.=C2=A0 Th= at=20 is=E2=80=93 should the process of updating this document update documents= other=20 than obsoleting 2028?=C2=A0 I would very much like the answer to that=20 question to be NO. We have to be sure that we're not doing that by accident, and one way to = do that is to make this document Informational.=C2=A0 Another way to do t= hat=20 is to say that explicitly we are not updating any other documents, and=20 when in doubt, go to those other documents. A third way of doing that is = to go read that long list of documents to make sure we are not creating=20 ambiguities. Eliot On 08.09.21 22:59, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 09-Sep-21 08:42, Rob Sayre wrote: > ... >> By writing it all down, Rich seems to have shown that some of these re= lationships are absurdly complex. I'm not saying that was the intent. Som= etimes these things only become evident after you try to document them. > They are complex as a result of history, but trying to straighten out a= plate of spaghetti is generally held to be impossible. We have a plate o= f our own spaghetti to sort out first: https://www.ietf.org/standards/pro= cess/informal/ > > Brian > --QbI6Tfp74xMPa5XYLq1EDyqB81E5tTyYG-- --cLbRDBtZcuJIE79MmI7uCeidFGZ0xPzaG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmE7QuEFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejNi eQf/ZMDqv8ugCUxoaQmhCvt5UM/kKZVWfeNVm6qJ7mV5K/ruA0Fp2Pt0Jl1bgoI1Svbr2xyNYrs+ XKQ2eGtWJsak+wGm0ZC/kqfHr9dy9Z0jwMkuAMuMihOauQmEBDqDh7wlv4Ij7yeAWUc4F6lES+mF JQjLepUj3ge2Mirw9C5BfP+kwFJ6cJoBVQXJARgeOpA6MaJ8cT0zFlPeF/opvcx257NRGVZluJBJ FFa/GIMnm+mi9bVFCMwPvva3Z4fFpkwnHS1KgTNe3sfo28Kb9qW6w8I5Ub4LPCoMrG8FKrqBT2gy ugR8AtQlIBRh0gTYTz/9ts/RG3HCDw+557EqVh2M8g== =as4d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cLbRDBtZcuJIE79MmI7uCeidFGZ0xPzaG-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 07:10:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EAD3A00DC for ; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.18) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:10:31 -0000 ICAgID4gSWRlYWxseSwgb25jZSB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IGdldHMgYWRvcHRlZCBhbmQgdGhlbiBwdWJs aXNoZWQsIHRoYXQgcGFnZSBiYXNpY2FsbHkgZ29lcyBhd2F5IGFuZCBwb2ludHMgdG8gdGhlIGRv Y3VtZW50Lg0KDQogICAgT2ggbm8sIGl0IGRvZXNuJ3QuIEhhdmUgeW91IGV2ZXIgYWN0dWFsbHkg Y29udGVtcGxhdGVkIGhvdyBtYW55IHByb2Nlc3MtcmVsYXRlZCBkb2N1bWVudHMgdGhlIElFVEYg aGFzPyAoQXQgYSByb3VnaCBjb3VudCwgNzUuKSBJdCBpcyB0cnVseSBpbXByZXNzaXZlLiBUaGUg bGlzdCBpcyBiZWxvdyBteSBzaWduYXR1cmUuDQoNCkx1Y2tpbHkgSSdtIGZyaWVuZHMgd2l0aCB0 aGUgd2VibWFzdGVyIHRoZXJlIDopDQoNCiAgICA+IFdlIGFscmVhZHkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgVGFvLiBX cml0ZSB0aGluZ3Mgb25jZS4NCg0KICAgIFRoZSBUYW8gbm93aGVyZSBuZWFyIGNvdmVycyBhbGwg eW91IG1pZ2h0IG5lZWQgdG8ga25vdy4gSXQncyB0aGUgSUVURiBmb3IgRHVtbWllcywgcmVhbGx5 Lg0KDQpGb3IgYSBncm91cCB0aGF0IHByZWZlcnMgdG8gd29yayBvbiBieXRlcyBvbiB0aGUgd2ly ZSwgd2Ugc3VyZSBkbyBhbiBhd2Z1bCBsb3Qgb2YgbmF2ZWwtZ2F6aW5nLg0KDQo= From nobody Fri Sep 10 13:19:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C113A194D; 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([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t13sm3706291pfe.199.2021.09.10.13.19.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Barry Leiba , Lars Eggert Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:19:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:19:57 -0000 On 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > > I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD should be the first recourse in that case. Brian > > Barry > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change: >> >> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the IETF >> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any SAA >> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the situation >> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions by the >> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026}}. >> >> # Security Considerations >> >> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> From nobody Fri Sep 10 13:20:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 1EB143A194F; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C113A194D; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7eWtupkOvzmH; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com (mail-pl1-x62e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E8D43A194E; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id d17so1859877plr.12; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BKzbt4BQpusMtfE1k9LU3bsEJBW76MgXpUjWsc3eiwg=; b=VKzxryykQbij31NcSR/BqORDmmM4ZmA1BIwjzrAj+GOkjVXn+1//amP19IuWVQ6B+p 5s3oxViGt4BX1iUdtpEWTd6+0uyf4rbDEswAjrPDxBdQ39r5XU++w8qwpZtdS+o03Yhz WNCJz9KHo2Sd7dfXAH99aVlqyG1+7dfkUyYThGuXFiG+pZo2eu3i/S1uLJrqau2l9Boj 5CyOHZK6+1KybLXv6K5t4CjXH3xEAJ6mwBNBwPWVEui1chGmKsFqI5yfgnxnjzcrWv8R Wwz8UPj8qHVbFwUJlh4Gfr6B14NnHZqq3tPjP9Xl5g+aT5boKYnIkpH+/06gKFk0LZu5 LWhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BKzbt4BQpusMtfE1k9LU3bsEJBW76MgXpUjWsc3eiwg=; b=j6toNx793m8a9/OkvrM+g5xMcUeAjBB2d91xtqjweJzqsxfBVQy3mebmg6lVihZbkk Z52bQIcx3UEqlPHLYEk/83IJreDGhpNDljSsUDLrcmYpwXwccxE6Ygz38kaVG0ipP0Ge QT7uZW+uiEwdUc6ritRxoBlt84gqF0/HFW4wplHw+wu/sWXrZQcPz/M6OYlp6lsKtE8Q Si/P0JczZmCSeFcgV3yf6zAbCYsNq/oywrF52ptbWDB2CZ8DPzmPpsa0evZCWhpu3SAE ZsCcZz7IreXrheUZqjXhGd9+8aLWKdnrhXdNT2NnEbAo/k+KeQyk8X5SHN173YgiHA5a GIPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qdxrQrGocIROU4KSPqquy3pjQlLXESwA4MC8Sntk2vViUxeAa /QjPWjHLrWTDB8Lrgz+mesHMrJvmSdOA6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzUzGDOiUy4pzSDSC5P3Br0ybq/8A8YUeBBKwNPxs8fJJqhGV4bKQ61JrWsa9QDYXX5otN7TA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:33c6:: with SMTP id lk6mr11538841pjb.203.1631305190470; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t13sm3706291pfe.199.2021.09.10.13.19.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Barry Leiba , Lars Eggert Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, GENDISPATCH List References: <163101639697.11702.11425677914483803771@ietfa.amsl.com> <40144D1F-3D7F-4C43-9C4E-2F914B5458D1@eggert.org> <0415be9c-4b25-0e08-fe9f-7c927c0765d3@gmail.com> <1130F786-31F0-4421-A062-DE3F80F4B368@eggert.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:19:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210910201957.1EB143A194F@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:19:57 -0000 On 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > > I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD should be the first recourse in that case. Brian > > Barry > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change: >> >> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the IETF >> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any SAA >> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the situation >> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions by the >> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026}}. >> >> # Security Considerations >> >> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> From nobody Fri Sep 10 13:26:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1153A19B6 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cry-jIB6KBWo for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0A253A19B5 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id h3so2877267pgb.7 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sOjO+mh07132f5qcl+8eY/RJoqUsXFm4KXd03OPXMRA=; b=h0D5Gy2V6MnZGySMPc4/HNs3Tm7vf2cWt9pvmPLSZYit9B5jd5T8lsFUfwPrlOtzBu xVj8yUMtKGFS8KDCJNwWAdKAPjU1Xp9gNghPg6omvnpmTbuqPhiPc8Zh1YPAFNS/ptjQ OGQnTugIDGEddXOTEC5REzaju5yW/9wcUj8twnqpx9+vENb8y4myIJp7Xl5cFTA77JWi c3z5Vnm8mVOD2SIeUPOF5U0EyKjdUAJzaj9678RLdHvpCzJQpNovdhsTQjnopFVC1RFT DFiTfXrOsP4cgBWdkDiFIwTG8dq7vNSJ++y4pXPFlf0VOj2UZDqvx5uWe0bp30+m6rWd WWAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sOjO+mh07132f5qcl+8eY/RJoqUsXFm4KXd03OPXMRA=; b=ru4xnJwjpwOKngrbG3oll+xYEL8NG6zzRI4ggk6CPEZIDak2k/BGHEjr4afjxSGgep WkzgxTyrcGf0CjhB5qPbwrqSxNMj6AI7x98UFGItRd7qjOghCd3hYGG5CQm6pjhqCJi7 EOodY3Im7isjb9cBOQRHq1U1RZNpYLn3RZuW+7J060CRoSak3yXmJZna8iXtjO2TRZz+ xSyy94gclpxGySiC5a1R4gcPr1v3UCScIrTawwNBGk2olrXdxmq/XclQi7EzXqbrRaGw FF79PS1hCTNG8hHsuz4PVW1QWzORiW+osUK/j3sVomIThjFAJ7omB875qS1ELvjJaLOW CKRg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533yVpphAYOKlX9XgI7X/S3+YhcGIE/LSIYuyO6AUt1EEENnmiHs Dp1cvOgAGJqo3L3NWy75mDDa7zj0nLi9Ww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+3TLqkL8qqqwtzC6ZbybSANkI0Q79fK+vpk5Yhjbw2LAdI24MLUT7QjbHLx3tj3p5sHUNdg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2129:b0:434:ab92:5af4 with SMTP id n9-20020a056a00212900b00434ab925af4mr4959023pfj.3.1631305603472; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e2sm6001744pfn.141.2021.09.10.13.26.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:26:43 -0700 (PDT) To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> <9ad2f98b-1b4d-0c98-0708-3d1beb96a2d5@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <027a6ef4-869c-ac0e-31b1-e2f51ea8e8a5@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:26:40 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:26:49 -0000 On 11-Sep-21 02:10, Salz, Rich wrote: > > Ideally, once this draft gets adopted and then published, that page basically goes away and points to the document. > > Oh no, it doesn't. Have you ever actually contemplated how many process-related documents the IETF has? (At a rough count, 75.) It is truly impressive. The list is below my signature. > > Luckily I'm friends with the webmaster there :) You're not the only one, however. > > We already have the Tao. Write things once. > > The Tao nowhere near covers all you might need to know. It's the IETF for Dummies, really. > > For a group that prefers to work on bytes on the wire, we sure do an awful lot of navel-gazing. Sure. And the result of that is the collection of 75 RFCs that I cited. If you care to start a project to reduce that number, I think you'll find that https://xkcd.com/927 applies here too. Brian From nobody Fri Sep 10 13:38:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C49F3A1A3B for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gFbOPM3sCEJk for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 974DA3A1A3A for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id a15so3955452iot.2 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sSbhvJksLPaQFGTiHNCuECpVtonPrnM5gmwIhHAAj1Q=; b=e9j32ZHs6kdzeZdZcIKLtYsVI2WDv8ilUSmmJ50oLtIYKPXwUmsgjOLzZbEWtkzjTh SwaL4i1l0dk1ntyrKT65HKGkbuT+MFlGTMRlUSVKMaNYOgTnymeRvlT5a9SsrkgLvVWH ctnIkjdbkA4D8i+BUUiijyVIBvkp19v19kzLGiBl9GfDHpAYY+awosEXD64+USZ3QKHd A8Mio0sPZg2C55X8mEcZmwJ5UOzM8dEO/ZfcC/E2s1Nzp3/3gFIRVp+3ucAJj4Hls8p3 nZ7IbNIEWgWHwsd78hLnv9zcbfMNKVH5z786pzzBKjCELboYotoALcGtHNmMdKe3O3J+ HDxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sSbhvJksLPaQFGTiHNCuECpVtonPrnM5gmwIhHAAj1Q=; b=jL7caGNoYhrIr+6Skyx8nBpZFTOkx/Sol5NvfOe74qUT2gUfWy9m/I2mprHrpYpXvy DOZ1zHoH5G1Q9Q15PmTDITiHUFh+exenjI/7H2NqUulDBVag9xCZxOJ7HpQgNiqe0xQV gtOlLfgaEZS8+nRDxU/wuZEUkrDDDQrt62WFCo1cvaCEd0yoncm5jFePOKSIiFDuA2OI JT1aeEm3cWSHfey1zZ1a4AiwSXuaJo18Ot+uFwHuExyfM7bozPuiKXJ1x+MDBxBhmBsB FlKOxn0/b1HPGyCg8doQhwsHT+x/xwmOvYzhNW4Zs5MlAfN3kGCidDH0KIQwOndNgJB9 CyHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532UJsmrglMDjQ07irUfJiXYbXKnXsWiVXvjRcFeoxbdM9tYnffV tBlavwzuOmDISwxPbw1hbGXjm6DMUPtkWnA7DIY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyT+PEAM1bqX/qwQ/09MBeCLRt3wu31ekBtCEnfofIrD1Lpe8OIxzU51G24Z5eRjConpvP0XJvwv128QpLM4nI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8b54:: with SMTP id n81mr8558117iod.5.1631306312006; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:38:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> <9ad2f98b-1b4d-0c98-0708-3d1beb96a2d5@gmail.com> <027a6ef4-869c-ac0e-31b1-e2f51ea8e8a5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <027a6ef4-869c-ac0e-31b1-e2f51ea8e8a5@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:38:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003f400d05cbaa1947" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 20:38:38 -0000 --0000000000003f400d05cbaa1947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 1:26 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > For a group that prefers to work on bytes on the wire, we sure do an > awful lot of navel-gazing. > > Sure. And the result of that is the collection of 75 RFCs that I cited. If > you care to start a project to reduce that number, I think you'll find that > https://xkcd.com/927 applies here too. > Yes, I think that XKCD problem is in play. I've noticed the tension arises from the fact that some procedures are deliberately vague (good for dealing with someone that is being a pain), but others have been made precise due to bad management in the presence of ambiguity (deliberate or accidental). The management problems seem difficult, so I am not surprised the IETF ended up with 75 drafts. thanks, Rob --0000000000003f400d05cbaa1947 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 1:26 PM Brian E C= arpenter <brian.e.carpent= er@gmail.com> wrote:
> For a group that prefers to work on bytes on the wire, we sure do an a= wful lot of navel-gazing.

Sure. And the result of that is the collection of 75 RFCs that I cited. If = you care to start a project to reduce that number, I think you'll find = that = https://xkcd.com/927 applies here too.

<= div>Yes, I think that XKCD problem is in play. I've noticed the tension= arises from the fact that some procedures are deliberately vague (good for= dealing with someone that is being a pain), but others have been made prec= ise due to bad management in the presence of ambiguity (deliberate or accid= ental). The management problems seem difficult, so I am not surprised=C2=A0= the IETF ended up with 75 drafts.

thanks,
Rob

--0000000000003f400d05cbaa1947-- From nobody Fri Sep 10 22:37:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EDB3A0A2E; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LdT0fqQ0B9zK; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BCD23A0A2C; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c99d:320:675b:ac33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 33F3F600373; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:36:42 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631338602; bh=2gOvRFUi90cAdZc5mnDzVlenYGTo3Bmo1rlH4bmRPPM=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=oscp/gqjCRR9kI7it9Oks/1xoDRIlfKCVuTRPs95Etd6n97WCIYozZpRwkboAtsUc MPu2eUV/9Xm2Wy8K5G1LbGuXUreUcdnmEVcpWGqHGkcIRh5bjsF3oWAba+wQzHU9sc F1ez7pTZXWYyqIeATjHUoaGQjtZIF/hiLAHfY8fU= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:36:39 +0300 Message-Id: References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-MailScanner-ID: 33F3F600373.A3818 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 05:37:09 -0000 Hi Brian, Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is that i= f the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? Thanks, Lars --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >>=20 >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >=20 > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > should be the first recourse in that case. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Barry >>=20 >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in ht= tps://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current chang= e: >>>=20 >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >>>=20 >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the I= ETF >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any S= AA >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the si= tuation >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions= by the >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026}}= . >>>=20 >>> # Security Considerations >>>=20 >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Lars >>>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch From nobody Fri Sep 10 22:37:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 90A5C3A0A31; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EDB3A0A2E; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LdT0fqQ0B9zK; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BCD23A0A2C; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:c99d:320:675b:ac33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 33F3F600373; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:36:42 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631338602; bh=2gOvRFUi90cAdZc5mnDzVlenYGTo3Bmo1rlH4bmRPPM=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=oscp/gqjCRR9kI7it9Oks/1xoDRIlfKCVuTRPs95Etd6n97WCIYozZpRwkboAtsUc MPu2eUV/9Xm2Wy8K5G1LbGuXUreUcdnmEVcpWGqHGkcIRh5bjsF3oWAba+wQzHU9sc F1ez7pTZXWYyqIeATjHUoaGQjtZIF/hiLAHfY8fU= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:36:39 +0300 Message-Id: References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-MailScanner-ID: 33F3F600373.A3818 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210911053709.90A5C3A0A31@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 22:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 05:37:10 -0000 Hi Brian, Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is that i= f the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? Thanks, Lars --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >>=20 >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >=20 > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > should be the first recourse in that case. >=20 > Brian >=20 >>=20 >> Barry >>=20 >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in ht= tps://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current chang= e: >>>=20 >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >>>=20 >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if the I= ETF >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any S= AA >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the si= tuation >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisions= by the >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026}}= From nobody Sat Sep 11 00:38:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15F73A130F; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIDF5L5jMjWY; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC90F3A1314; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id h1so7089615ljl.9; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d6HyW62nOdqB1mCPoF4JvdM9LQZUWCfzSMNWG/MUDJw=; b=hOz16SFKC18X60IaPloVkQp4sEmrL/FSav3mkpZ2lFS6cecBzzOAMcATExERmrxbTA c8GvzTpVS3mAGuJGruHrKTQLKTNhgfrStB1c+we5c50bSRIdB8Bxtcr2UFYekv7bGzSP 4NWl2fvnTAJqDJNE06+haQ5EAXnSpDZy5C0RakMQyS9NzVcfxq5MO7YPl7vDi045eCmC lcPgVUF8ZCqgQ3TV9kzZjn7l429ckuTNGr6gbT9nXpfDM44Mb2bLb7G1Wp0965KfIKHE XzeKXQxiNlXr0aJdm7Hi/u8yFjaOFJL+AbBgXIP79z+b/4TaxEBR2hA7yN1FAoUcqvP8 2SSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d6HyW62nOdqB1mCPoF4JvdM9LQZUWCfzSMNWG/MUDJw=; b=f17K2pzTyIahK+AAtO4f9Q4x7rneU02IqxzTU/Vbnrz3p8Zs0Xioey5hwsRwS4dtFa Qr08u4znh6z1tu4n8x3Qi2CgouTImaqzmT3XefsTv7E3smQfZJvEbDFuUDCOJ+OwF/YE ZgiOZrY6+HalSpRheM/SHIEqc3m7+NhTTadjD64wEyOKenD/ZdSV4aIBxxUa9RKDUWYL CaAcRFlQTk9J4+EvMvEAA/ZWRUnbauG7Fbx+uGcdWox02GAhcQ9ezuxG5JnsVoyFxIHI roTEXKV8mRyBnCs5/DtTu66PLBTA3SWacWVvtFNYke9A85JuhRS0aLUdl1elwig7LYg+ XW9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5315XQaP/zxUKkm7dmd5lOUrvy3TAx1Ik7GNfM2uvNQRECgA8U8Y jwYa49BUSsd0eOUdVH8LDGuA/tU9u7hW2Vl2lrE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwol6XmK43NBMoGcMM5m/EBtUTlPI9lfJU3fTYqGuQrL1fDFugPQ6Hh/GC20iGkfNdvQuKybG8A3uo+/u5wOoc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:910f:: with SMTP id m15mr1253420ljg.275.1631345873282; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:37:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Brian Carpenter Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:37:42 +1200 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048698305cbb34f7f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 07:38:06 -0000 --00000000000048698305cbb34f7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lars, Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. Regards, Brian Carpenter (via tiny screen & keyboard) On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is > that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >> > >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > > > > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > > should be the first recourse in that case. > > > > Brian > > > >> > >> Barry > >> > >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current > change: > >>> > >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >>> > >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > the IETF > >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - an= y > SAA > >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the > situation > >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. > Decisions by the > >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per > {{!RFC2026}}. > >>> > >>> # Security Considerations > >>> > >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Lars > >>> > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > --00000000000048698305cbb34f7f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lars,
Since 2026 doesn't men= tion conflict of interest, that's probably the procedure. Not entirely = satisfactory, but we could live with it.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Sat, 11 Sep 20= 21, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.o= rg> wrote:
Hi Brian,

Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is that= if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?

Thanks,
Lars

--
Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.

> On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>>
>> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I = don't
>> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by t= he
>> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>
> You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF C= hair is
> conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > should be the first recourse in that case.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals pro= cess in https://github.com/larseggert/= bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change:
>>>
>>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>>>
>>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - ev= en if the IETF
>>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA te= am - any SAA
>>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then rev= iew the situation
>>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}.= Decisions by the
>>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{= !RFC2026}}.
>>>
>>> # Security Considerations
>>>
>>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Lars
>>>
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gendispatch

--00000000000048698305cbb34f7f-- From nobody Sat Sep 11 00:38:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id A58783A1317; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15F73A130F; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NIDF5L5jMjWY; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC90F3A1314; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id h1so7089615ljl.9; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d6HyW62nOdqB1mCPoF4JvdM9LQZUWCfzSMNWG/MUDJw=; b=hOz16SFKC18X60IaPloVkQp4sEmrL/FSav3mkpZ2lFS6cecBzzOAMcATExERmrxbTA c8GvzTpVS3mAGuJGruHrKTQLKTNhgfrStB1c+we5c50bSRIdB8Bxtcr2UFYekv7bGzSP 4NWl2fvnTAJqDJNE06+haQ5EAXnSpDZy5C0RakMQyS9NzVcfxq5MO7YPl7vDi045eCmC lcPgVUF8ZCqgQ3TV9kzZjn7l429ckuTNGr6gbT9nXpfDM44Mb2bLb7G1Wp0965KfIKHE XzeKXQxiNlXr0aJdm7Hi/u8yFjaOFJL+AbBgXIP79z+b/4TaxEBR2hA7yN1FAoUcqvP8 2SSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=d6HyW62nOdqB1mCPoF4JvdM9LQZUWCfzSMNWG/MUDJw=; b=f17K2pzTyIahK+AAtO4f9Q4x7rneU02IqxzTU/Vbnrz3p8Zs0Xioey5hwsRwS4dtFa Qr08u4znh6z1tu4n8x3Qi2CgouTImaqzmT3XefsTv7E3smQfZJvEbDFuUDCOJ+OwF/YE ZgiOZrY6+HalSpRheM/SHIEqc3m7+NhTTadjD64wEyOKenD/ZdSV4aIBxxUa9RKDUWYL CaAcRFlQTk9J4+EvMvEAA/ZWRUnbauG7Fbx+uGcdWox02GAhcQ9ezuxG5JnsVoyFxIHI roTEXKV8mRyBnCs5/DtTu66PLBTA3SWacWVvtFNYke9A85JuhRS0aLUdl1elwig7LYg+ XW9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5315XQaP/zxUKkm7dmd5lOUrvy3TAx1Ik7GNfM2uvNQRECgA8U8Y jwYa49BUSsd0eOUdVH8LDGuA/tU9u7hW2Vl2lrE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwol6XmK43NBMoGcMM5m/EBtUTlPI9lfJU3fTYqGuQrL1fDFugPQ6Hh/GC20iGkfNdvQuKybG8A3uo+/u5wOoc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:910f:: with SMTP id m15mr1253420ljg.275.1631345873282; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:37:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Brian Carpenter Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:37:42 +1200 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048698305cbb34f7f" Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210911073806.A58783A1317@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 07:38:07 -0000 --00000000000048698305cbb34f7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lars, Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. Regards, Brian Carpenter (via tiny screen & keyboard) On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is > that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? > > Thanks, > Lars > > -- > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >> > >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > > > > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > > should be the first recourse in that case. > > > > Brian > > > >> > >> Barry > >> > >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in > https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current > change: > >>> > >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >>> > >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > the IETF > >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - an= y > SAA > >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the > situation > >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. > Decisions by the > >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per > {{!RFC2026}}. > >>> > >>> # Security Considerations > >>> > >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Lars > >>> > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > --00000000000048698305cbb34f7f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lars,
Since 2026 doesn't men= tion conflict of interest, that's probably the procedure. Not entirely = satisfactory, but we could live with it.

Regards,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard)

On Sat, 11 Sep 20= 21, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.o= rg> wrote:
Hi Brian,

Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is that= if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?

Thanks,
Lars

--
Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.

> On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carp= enter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>>
>> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I = don't
>> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by t= he
>> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>
> You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF C= hair is
> conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > should be the first recourse in that case.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals pro= cess in https://github.com/larseggert/= bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change:
>>>
>>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>>>
>>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - ev= en if the IETF
>>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA te= am - any SAA
>>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then rev= iew the situation
>>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}.= Decisions by the
>>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{= !RFC2026}}.
>>>
>>> # Security Considerations
>>>
>>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Lars
>>>
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/gendispatch

--00000000000048698305cbb34f7f-- From nobody Sat Sep 11 04:26:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1159D3A0FFD; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 04:26:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=lear.ch Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9JSiioL5dBm; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 04:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [185.32.222.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4B8C3A0FF9; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 04:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:b879:6f74:8d4c:6a0b] ([IPv6:2a02:aa15:4101:2a80:b879:6f74:8d4c:6a0b]) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-18) with ESMTPSA id 18BBQQB1060106 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 11 Sep 2021 13:26:27 +0200 Authentication-Results: upstairs.ofcourseimright.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=lear.ch DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1631359587; bh=NDx8F25eDsVGu3Q9ok4wUyzFMT+dCdtLcQB5JKLgzfA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=tfb2x5TdZ/OS7spZnWKmAFRTYbg7XcfG73coov2vw6m2F37dOAxhzQG0Rg3DZUxOc MTFxPFzyFXgCHTS0lrW9OzrGcIctwjouY4boDLfImabOWFZ36MCYg2jNOL+0t5qcMW 12aGLowyufOpQsc+7kx4Cx2R++0DzDkfn08AUxQA= To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <99ce67bb-5f5a-5645-2adb-85c8c0531914@lear.ch> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 13:26:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uuQs6WAVAoNMIOs7RulxNkrGX9Xjplyn0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 11:26:35 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uuQs6WAVAoNMIOs7RulxNkrGX9Xjplyn0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bp1txhrRlxEmMlwEWJQjc5moX8T38Qpav"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Pete Resnick Cc: GENDISPATCH List Message-ID: <99ce67bb-5f5a-5645-2adb-85c8c0531914@lear.ch> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt References: <20210906191255.760B42778391@ary.qy> <6F720ED1-DFC6-4DF0-B36A-BE5379F10F5A@ietf.org> <4D704856-F291-4E39-BBA9-2C3A1ACACBC8@mnot.net> <0C75A2F6-C0C6-4F66-B29D-5C2D892D5CBC@episteme.net> <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> In-Reply-To: <17FF704B-4843-4092-B73A-A2768E85C0CF@episteme.net> --bp1txhrRlxEmMlwEWJQjc5moX8T38Qpav Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi Pete, To follow up on this, I support this work being dispatched, either to an = AD-sponsored draft or to a WG. Eliot On 07.09.21 20:04, Pete Resnick wrote: > On 7 Sep 2021, at 4:55, Eliot Lear wrote: > >> This draft was posted eight days ago. Some of us require advice on=20 >> this matter outside of this room. I'd ask that you defer any action=20 >> until we can get that advice. I don't anticipate that taking long (a=20 >> week or so?). > > I'm not sure I understand: You need time for outside advice on the=20 > dispatch question? I can understand perhaps needing advice on giving=20 > input to the content of the document, but I'm not clear why you would=20 > need advice to give input to the dispatch question. > > pr --bp1txhrRlxEmMlwEWJQjc5moX8T38Qpav-- --uuQs6WAVAoNMIOs7RulxNkrGX9Xjplyn0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsB5BAABCAAjFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmE8kmIFAwAAAAAACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOj +Af7BGjOUnCahhimEhPmpW0f5obc5QW632RiibGqUQ+JxRUfF5Ha/5kiDfSi+nplZybx6sOA8qOi XAPSHqfFVVJNHsb0124XHQiUqxgyr/P725KqVNHLvun4BVhkeZv07/bDZf23RqD4jUKg+7c1jYkS 606kYc/LwdkUA5urbLzcVgVHj+bZeOmJE0TZkEJmjpXitHSitjdwHt4Fs0lNtyQWisBK09dbuvD4 l/igOIYuAevcP/tDzBmLI/UgyCHke98sOYaKgsY7OfKtfPn6e+h/vbt9tgt4dcgNeSjjBtAczrVM SKP3Okki9kEdXgmrDSf8mIeOxcUuhOcpeiTCKVGV/g== =r0Iw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uuQs6WAVAoNMIOs7RulxNkrGX9Xjplyn0-- From nobody Sat Sep 11 06:02:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1283A13CF for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 06:02:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3avjg21BnEew for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 06:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08CA03A13CE for ; Sat, 11 Sep 2021 06:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bb17sm2406518pjb.45.2021.09.11.14.41.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:41:50 -0700 (PDT) To: "Salz, Rich" , Rob Sayre Cc: "gendispatch@ietf.org" References: <163069758370.6471.14990302329155864755@ietfa.amsl.com> <9b9c0e2d-c997-431c-6cc0-326b85992c72@lear.ch> <84a84b50-e8ce-da68-9115-83b392043683@gmail.com> <18205B44-72C5-4A59-93F4-A39FEA3384A1@akamai.com> <9ad2f98b-1b4d-0c98-0708-3d1beb96a2d5@gmail.com> <027a6ef4-869c-ac0e-31b1-e2f51ea8e8a5@gmail.com> <2B9D1F4B-A8EA-43D6-AB07-D13C265D4D95@akamai.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:41:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2B9D1F4B-A8EA-43D6-AB07-D13C265D4D95@akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] First comments on draft-rsalz-2028bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 21:41:56 -0000 On 12-Sep-21 01:02, Salz, Rich wrote: > > Luckily I'm friends with the webmaster there :) > > You're not the only one, however. > > I know Greg has other friends. Probably better ones than me. Hence the smiley :) > > > > We already have the Tao. Write things once. > > > > The Tao nowhere near covers all you might need to know. It's the IETF for Dummies, really. > > > > For a group that prefers to work on bytes on the wire, we sure do an awful lot of navel-gazing. > > Sure. And the result of that is the collection of 75 RFCs that I cited. If you care to start a project to reduce that number > > Nope. My primary interest for this is helping to make sure that we have documents that express the way things are now. Everyone agreed 2028 needed to be updated. I wonder what would be next on the list? Both 2026 and 2418 are pretty rusty. I suspect that a thorough update of both of those could get rid of a significant fraction of the other 73. But it would be a major effort, and might not be cost-effective. 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Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:05:46 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: "gendispatch@ietf.org" CC: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" , Lars Eggert Thread-Topic: AD sponsoring draft-eggert-bcp45bis Thread-Index: AdelaouN2jgCbT+lR9SCkiWqfzYxMw== Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:05:45 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a95d0058-35a9-4bd1-443a-08d976b73342 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR11MB4690: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM4PR11MB5438.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a95d0058-35a9-4bd1-443a-08d976b73342 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2021 13:05:45.9425 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: t5o344uiOnKHh6o227x8dw+IndVr12lWKhJZAugC64GuVUhbmtgguZpFgIzwwEV9N3BUS04TZ+FrZjceJZpz5Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB4690 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.22, xbe-rcd-007.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] AD sponsoring draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:06:08 -0000 Hi, Just to close the loop on draft-eggert-bcp45bis. The dispatch outcome was for draft-eggert-bcp45bis to be AD sponsored. Give= n that Lars, who would be the natural candidate, is the author I offered to= AD sponsor this document. I have also done my AD review of this document. The actual comments that I raised can be seen here: https://github.com/lars= eggert/bcp45bis/pull/4/files These were resolved and merged into the -04 version https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/04/ Putting aside minor comments, the comments that I raised, and the resolutio= n was as follows: 1) I queried whether the document should state that the IESG chairs appoint= ment of an SAA individual could be applied. We both agreed that this actio= n, like an AD action, could be appealed, but that this did not need to be d= ocumented. 2) I queried whether the appeal should go immediately to the IAB, or via th= e IESG first. I see that Barry also brought up this issue and that Lars ha= s provided text to realign the appeal process to the normal appeal path (wh= ich I support). 3) I requested that RFC3005 be changed to an informative reference, because= it is obsoleted and replaced by this document. My intention to wait for the issue 2 above to reach a firm conclusion on th= e gendispatch mailing list, and then I will kick off the IETF LC on this do= cument. 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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Brian Carpenter , Lars Eggert CC: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHXo+DX6ULwrtNi60SXxYOPi3Y316uam/iAgACqUoCAAH0GAIAAf1cAgACbdoCAAECWgIAAm/AAgACbl4CAACHTAIAGWYFA Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 08:47:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3649c711-bf4b-4c4d-3fac-08d978257654 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR11MB2922: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u12sm485461pjx.31.2021.09.15.13.55.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:56 -0700 (PDT) To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org" References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0c85067c-b45d-8c46-1a96-eb9ae536f7c9@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:55:50 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:56:06 -0000 On 15-Sep-21 20:47, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturda= y. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change.= >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is accepta= ble to you.=C2=A0 Please clarify if this is not the case. It's acceptable. In my experience, IESG members have always known when to=20 recuse themselves. Brian >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further comme= nts on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text.=C2=A0 If there are no strong objectio= ns then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and=20 I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Rob >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > *From:*Brian Carpenter > *Sent:* 11 September 2021 08:38 > *To:* Lars Eggert > *Cc:* Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List ; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bc= p45bis-04.txt >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Hi Lars, >=20 > Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the pr= ocedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >=20 > Regards, > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard) >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, > wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian, >=20 > Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it=20 is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >=20 > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >> > >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I do= n't > >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by=20 the > >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > > > > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chai= r is > > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SA= As > > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another = AD > > should be the first recourse in that case. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian > > > >> > >> Barry > >> > >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals proc= ess in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files . This is the current change: > >>> > >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >>> > >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - eve= n if the IETF > >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA tea= m - any SAA > >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then revi= ew the situation > >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. = Decisions by the > >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!= RFC2026}}. > >>> > >>> # Security Considerations > >>> > >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Lars > >>> > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 15 13:56:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id CD5D23A1159; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04A83A1158; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnCoL7lI7DV6; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 591FC3A1157; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id r2so3940923pgl.10; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/aVpnFhTvJcVNu1FWD8ZpwDQZ03q6MxckQUEuosD3v8=; b=Oz1zCnS/Tne6LfPceW8hN6c+qM76XBUraVWxvqRqDbYUSn7fxSzLVi72f3VHsrWUgA n7Vi8kwhEKOZsSx+f4HVsrbEvOdhKOFHy0hQBmK2m+UWz0FNcQlamFWXf8p2GWUDzGCw 1TjNHfyKtjtORsO+kL9wWz+bmPBL7UV7ZjP9xiTPXEIwR+SvbjNqjDfN9HAioJPxYv24 DjYGu1GXUcX5KORD023icLsaV3tRHERIO8eBy2FiIJ7mHMnirBFvBf7V1kHv9UNrgVtI x7068o1IEHrQBVBwvX1cP+vR92i2Iovu6meVGvyUf1/8tI/STPdkaQ9pP3cB+TmcHmKE C2jA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/aVpnFhTvJcVNu1FWD8ZpwDQZ03q6MxckQUEuosD3v8=; b=y4fFL1prKtEgCu/V8TohKfx32bQG/oDDsH2DLp3ciUTjvR16Bbp2J1LwDOOFfI0RG7 Ru+Ld7JVZLnGyB1d9XODUIKI+R/q38QC+Zdwdhqx9JB3KB84h3geOUGQ6FGpN7xVT8rb nKe7mMSJ+onwv822B7/MO2dbSDkVkQybkPn85Dz/w+NhFEOMWXPB8qH8L3z4qm+w3pJn ILIVx0AqzRHUIJx2b7HDbKZ15wzphhjkZlHkDDO4eJaMWABdC+3TZf4QxDza6URlfg3J zT6prWYXtIZHeVCe5Ln6YqVGp52O2jEYjHDEhgbafYEqSqjWnYgCP+8rpW4QhPBkKWlK WTJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532xCjl3ivljBnz0ZIAQwM2jT1pERrSFZthP+ZUhzI7MhC3s5QG7 Bs1VfxlXyQLwdpitOtiigNTj+lx+//+ejQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDLin1nr/qKPo0d6f1vaVFm4N9Ko3G5xlbtbvpo7StuG2XuQz9bOhJPhZhhuL/bMbqPBbq4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a63:aa4c:: with SMTP id x12mr1580594pgo.211.1631739357851; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u12sm485461pjx.31.2021.09.15.13.55.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:55:56 -0700 (PDT) To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Lars Eggert Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org" References: <0a918f8f-b2bd-4756-b0f5-23ff8063f1e8@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <0c85067c-b45d-8c46-1a96-eb9ae536f7c9@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:55:50 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210915205605.CD5D23A1159@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 13:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:56:06 -0000 On 15-Sep-21 20:47, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturda= y. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change.= >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is accepta= ble to you.=C2=A0 Please clarify if this is not the case. It's acceptable. In my experience, IESG members have always known when to=20 recuse themselves. Brian >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further comme= nts on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text.=C2=A0 If there are no strong objectio= ns then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and=20 I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Rob >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > *From:*Brian Carpenter > *Sent:* 11 September 2021 08:38 > *To:* Lars Eggert > *Cc:* Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List ; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bc= p45bis-04.txt >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Hi Lars, >=20 > Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the pr= ocedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >=20 > Regards, > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Brian Carpenter > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (via tiny screen & keyboard) >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, > wrote: >=20 > Hi Brian, >=20 > Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it=20 is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >=20 > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >> > >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I do= n't > >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by=20 the > >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > > > > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chai= r is > > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SA= As > > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another = AD > > should be the first recourse in that case. > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian > > > >> > >> Barry > >> > >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals proc= ess in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files . This is the current change: > >>> > >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >>> > >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - eve= n if the IETF > >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA tea= m - any SAA > >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then revi= ew the situation > >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. = Decisions by the > >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!= RFC2026}}. > >>> > >>> # Security Considerations > >>> > >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Lars > >>> > > > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 From nobody Fri Sep 17 03:31:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0E6FB3A12DB; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 03:31:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E353A12DA for ; 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Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:31:41 +0000 Received: by kubenode508.mail-prod1.omega.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 310db268aa7f2c75d0e8373b96ab84ba; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:31:36 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:31:33 +1000 Message-Id: References: Cc: Brian Carpenter , Lars Eggert , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List In-Reply-To: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Resent-From: Resent-To: gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210917103150.0E6FB3A12DB@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 03:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:31:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for the IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberative bod= y, during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. An SAA should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, the li= st itself, by the list members. Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this can be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power.=20 I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing process doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of the SAA as described. Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturday. > =20 > My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change. > =20 > Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is acceptable= to you. Please clarify if this is not the case. > =20 > I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further comments= on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong objections then on = Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80=99ll k= ick off IETF LC. > =20 > Regards, > Rob > =20 > =20 > From: Brian Carpenter =20 > Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 > To: Lars Eggert > Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List ; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bi= s-04.txt > =20 > Hi Lars, > Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the proce= dure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >=20 > Regards, > Brian Carpenter > (via tiny screen & keyboard) > =20 > On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 > Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is tha= t if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >=20 > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >>=20 > >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > >=20 > > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > > should be the first recourse in that case. > >=20 > > Brian > >=20 > >>=20 > >> Barry > >>=20 > >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> Hi, > >>>=20 > >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in h= ttps://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current chan= ge: > >>>=20 > >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >>>=20 > >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if th= e IETF > >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any= SAA > >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the s= ituation > >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisio= ns by the > >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026= }}. > >>>=20 > >>> # Security Considerations > >>>=20 > >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >>>=20 > >>> Thanks, > >>> Lars > >>>=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a latecomer to this thread, and as someo= ne with rather more recent
experience of the SAAs than most... section 4= says:

   A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an off=
icer appointed by a deliberative
   body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA].  SAAs for the
   IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair

=
The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberativ= e body,
during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberat= ive body. An SAA
should be appointed by the deliberative body itse= lf, which is to say, the list
itself, by the list members.

Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Cha= ir. So, this can
be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's= power. 

I strongly object to this. Documentin= g or redocumenting an existing process
doesn't make that process r= ight, and this violates the basic concept of the
SAA as described.=

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.c= o.uk

On 15 Sep 202= 1, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

I=E2=80=99= ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturday.

 = ;

My interpr= etation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change.

 = ;

Brian, my i= nterpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is acceptable to you. = ; Please clarify if this is not the case.

 = ;

I would li= ke to wait until Friday to see if there are any further comments on Lar=E2=80= =99s proposed text.  If there are no strong objections then on Friday I= =E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC.

 = ;

Regards,

Rob

 = ;

 = ;

From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List <= ;gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bc= p45bis-04.txt

 

Hi Lars,

Since 2026 doesn't men= tion conflict of interest, that's probably the procedure. Not entirely satis= factory, but we could live with it.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

 

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:

Hi Brian,

Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is that i= f the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?

Thanks,
Lars

--
Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.

> On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>>
>> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't=
>> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by th= e
>> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>
> You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs
= > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD
= > should be the first recourse in that case.
>
>   Brian
>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals proc= ess in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current= change:
>>>
>>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>>>
>>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - eve= n if the IETF
>>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA tea= m - any SAA
>>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then revi= ew the situation
>>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing.
= >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. D= ecisions by the
>>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!= RFC2026}}.
>>>
>>> # Security Considerations
>>>
>>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Lars
>>>
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@i= etf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispat= ch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatc= h
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Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:31:41 +0000 Received: by kubenode508.mail-prod1.omega.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 310db268aa7f2c75d0e8373b96ab84ba; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:31:36 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:31:33 +1000 Message-Id: References: Cc: Brian Carpenter , Lars Eggert , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List In-Reply-To: To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:31:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for the IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberative bod= y, during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. An SAA should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, the li= st itself, by the list members. Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this can be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power.=20 I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing process doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of the SAA as described. Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturday. > =20 > My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change. > =20 > Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is acceptable= to you. Please clarify if this is not the case. > =20 > I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further comments= on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong objections then on = Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80=99ll k= ick off IETF LC. > =20 > Regards, > Rob > =20 > =20 > From: Brian Carpenter =20 > Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 > To: Lars Eggert > Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List ; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bi= s-04.txt > =20 > Hi Lars, > Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the proce= dure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >=20 > Regards, > Brian Carpenter > (via tiny screen & keyboard) > =20 > On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: > Hi Brian, >=20 > Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is tha= t if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >=20 > Thanks, > Lars >=20 > --=20 > Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >=20 > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >>=20 > >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > >=20 > > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > > should be the first recourse in that case. > >=20 > > Brian > >=20 > >>=20 > >> Barry > >>=20 > >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> Hi, > >>>=20 > >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process in h= ttps://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current chan= ge: > >>>=20 > >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >>>=20 > >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if th= e IETF > >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - any= SAA > >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review the s= ituation > >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. Decisio= ns by the > >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!RFC2026= }}. > >>>=20 > >>> # Security Considerations > >>>=20 > >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >>>=20 > >>> Thanks, > >>> Lars > >>>=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a latecomer to this thread, and as someo= ne with rather more recent
experience of the SAAs than most... section 4= says:

   A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an off=
icer appointed by a deliberative
   body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA].  SAAs for the
   IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair

=
The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberativ= e body,
during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberat= ive body. An SAA
should be appointed by the deliberative body itse= lf, which is to say, the list
itself, by the list members.

Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Cha= ir. So, this can
be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's= power. 

I strongly object to this. Documentin= g or redocumenting an existing process
doesn't make that process r= ight, and this violates the basic concept of the
SAA as described.=

Lloyd Wood
lloyd.wood@yahoo.c= o.uk

On 15 Sep 202= 1, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

I=E2=80=99= ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturday.

 = ;

My interpr= etation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change.

 = ;

Brian, my i= nterpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is acceptable to you. = ; Please clarify if this is not the case.

 = ;

I would li= ke to wait until Friday to see if there are any further comments on Lar=E2=80= =99s proposed text.  If there are no strong objections then on Friday I= =E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC.

 = ;

Regards,

Rob

 = ;

 = ;

From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List <= ;gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bc= p45bis-04.txt

 

Hi Lars,

Since 2026 doesn't men= tion conflict of interest, that's probably the procedure. Not entirely satis= factory, but we could live with it.

Regards,
    Brian Carpenter
    (via tiny screen & keyboard)

 

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:

Hi Brian,

Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is that i= f the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?

Thanks,
Lars

--
Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.

> On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>>
>> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't=
>> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by th= e
>> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>
> You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs
= > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD
= > should be the first recourse in that case.
>
>   Brian
>
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals proc= ess in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current= change:
>>>
>>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>>>
>>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - eve= n if the IETF
>>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA tea= m - any SAA
>>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then revi= ew the situation
>>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing.
= >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. D= ecisions by the
>>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per {{!= RFC2026}}.
>>>
>>> # Security Considerations
>>>
>>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Lars
>>>
>
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@i= etf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispat= ch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatc= h
= --Apple-Mail-D0C97FCF-9034-4917-B7C4-16FABC3F6BC2-- From nobody Sat Sep 18 00:25:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7AE3A0EF0; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hzJDPLKtWTqo; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D0283A0EEB; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:7478:e25:9629:a3ae]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 798FB600639; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:25:00 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631949900; bh=CtxbIZr/cF2ru16CYrGLw8ts/lbcKqfrMiPg4s2l8rw=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=eJ9qEcKq46FBcP9PTr9n8kvDu5iOXA1SvxOpcMUUlgDfnMT3Rxt+1Zfh5IGO+MzzE awp19v7HKJn1LR2LddhqfakTpZOdE+52vgS1SD50haawn+9FE6k9TO8juwSGR7m9nm qW+y2fOJ/5egnftORg60XcQOwkWquFosfiJgXO4M= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:24:59 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , GENDISPATCH List , Barry Leiba , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org To: Lloyd W References: X-MailScanner-ID: 798FB600639.A3A81 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 07:25:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W = wrote: > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: >=20 > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for = the > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair >=20 > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a = deliberative body, > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric = term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from = other regions when they first encounter it. I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be = happy to remove it again. > An SAA > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, = the list > itself, by the list members. Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is = not intending to change that. > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this = can > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually = significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows = for the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been = the practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence = removes that option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. = Second, it clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 = left somewhat unclear. > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing = process > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept = of the > SAA as described. If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do = so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, = because BCP45 would remain unchanged. Thanks, Lars >=20 > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since = Saturday. >>=20 >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this = change. >>=20 >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is = acceptable to you. Please clarify if this is not the case. >>=20 >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further = comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong = objections then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the = change and I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Rob >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Brian Carpenter >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 >> To: Lars Eggert >> Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List = ; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - = draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt >>=20 >> Hi Lars, >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the = procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Brian Carpenter >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) >>=20 >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: >> Hi Brian, >>=20 >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it = is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Lars >>=20 >> -- >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >>=20 >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> > >> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >> >> >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I = don't >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by = the >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >> > >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair = is >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD >> > should be the first recourse in that case. >> > >> > Brian >> > >> >> >> >> Barry >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert = wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals = process in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is = the current change: >> >>> >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >>> >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even = if the IETF >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team = - any SAA >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review = the situation >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. = Decisions by the >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per = {{!RFC2026}}. >> >>> >> >>> # Security Considerations >> >>> >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> Lars >> >>> >> > >> > -- >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >>=20 >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFFlEsACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfvlA/+MHNfzYRGL3k8oS1dFEPooWmtX/U+uixkVKjY5ZAYfU7vAj17aHFZS1XM Wnj/GTaZLSj4IpeNLG7eT44JCPLOtMoVkRoQFWMZCZQdFycxrCzYBgaDiyB9lUZd zc5N3iBBT2tsctV+eny+poobZ6i24NAls9LGLQxF0zg4qYVwn9fcPPf6fs0LXhnI LxR7cNJpg3bh0VkeGERGnBLZSaHuCxm1K/BKqfaBjyfxXEdL4ekfO2wA07gyQKId MYI3l33s+GnewoWjVDxkQe5AHeiT4X1MP+1T1N7a+Io9HpzOuL5cxuqQHBG0FNZG 1vLYoDCVi8Mf0lCqXaGEIcOX0DCFHqztSTDC+ZHxjwCAKcScK3AOdjJAkgJPc8jN 0T+GB7L3oGJLOXbPIwHkLHeMDgILMgGjz1C+utZJrBQC/ItauNPbgawAp2yhML14 680OIhhGWfS2seLaATM3+Rzd8FgqQnd3hJw3nJCaV2etAJkF2hZn5bLZ0OvJE+zY Zv634eqTl0b7wipVzXBxd5VefDyx0jBbzRm7DC0aKQeG+JhIFbp9YCEI6jXraLev gliLgDcrlwQB5nMyVDKK3i1FVWHDAh3UFOv0JCe3bSqU482ZhqOj/V/UR22Zn9tE EhuWXZSm98sZ4SW7ugbzHqETPdHWZapnmhbQIiQTmWOCz7b8plo= =G9Yr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B-- From nobody Sat Sep 18 00:25:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 092E13A0EEE; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7AE3A0EF0; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hzJDPLKtWTqo; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D0283A0EEB; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:7478:e25:9629:a3ae]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 798FB600639; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:25:00 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1631949900; bh=CtxbIZr/cF2ru16CYrGLw8ts/lbcKqfrMiPg4s2l8rw=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=eJ9qEcKq46FBcP9PTr9n8kvDu5iOXA1SvxOpcMUUlgDfnMT3Rxt+1Zfh5IGO+MzzE awp19v7HKJn1LR2LddhqfakTpZOdE+52vgS1SD50haawn+9FE6k9TO8juwSGR7m9nm qW+y2fOJ/5egnftORg60XcQOwkWquFosfiJgXO4M= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 10:24:59 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , GENDISPATCH List , Barry Leiba , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org To: Lloyd W References: X-MailScanner-ID: 798FB600639.A3A81 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210918072522.092E13A0EEE@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 07:25:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W = wrote: > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: >=20 > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for = the > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair >=20 > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a = deliberative body, > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric = term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from = other regions when they first encounter it. I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be = happy to remove it again. > An SAA > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, = the list > itself, by the list members. Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is = not intending to change that. > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this = can > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually = significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows = for the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been = the practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence = removes that option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. = Second, it clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 = left somewhat unclear. > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing = process > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept = of the > SAA as described. If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do = so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, = because BCP45 would remain unchanged. Thanks, Lars >=20 > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >=20 >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since = Saturday. >>=20 >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this = change. >>=20 >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is = acceptable to you. Please clarify if this is not the case. >>=20 >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further = comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong = objections then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the = change and I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Rob >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Brian Carpenter >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 >> To: Lars Eggert >> Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List = ; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - = draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt >>=20 >> Hi Lars, >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the = procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Brian Carpenter >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) >>=20 >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: >> Hi Brian, >>=20 >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it = is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Lars >>=20 >> -- >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >>=20 >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> > >> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >> >> >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I = don't >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by = the >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >> > >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair = is >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD >> > should be the first recourse in that case. >> > >> > Brian >> > >> >> >> >> Barry >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert = wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi, >> >>> >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals = process in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is = the current change: >> >>> >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >>> >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even = if the IETF >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team = - any SAA >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review = the situation >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. = Decisions by the >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per = {{!RFC2026}}. >> >>> >> >>> # Security Considerations >> >>> >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> Lars >> >>> >> > >> > -- >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >>=20 >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFFlEsACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfvlA/+MHNfzYRGL3k8oS1dFEPooWmtX/U+uixkVKjY5ZAYfU7vAj17aHFZS1XM Wnj/GTaZLSj4IpeNLG7eT44JCPLOtMoVkRoQFWMZCZQdFycxrCzYBgaDiyB9lUZd zc5N3iBBT2tsctV+eny+poobZ6i24NAls9LGLQxF0zg4qYVwn9fcPPf6fs0LXhnI LxR7cNJpg3bh0VkeGERGnBLZSaHuCxm1K/BKqfaBjyfxXEdL4ekfO2wA07gyQKId MYI3l33s+GnewoWjVDxkQe5AHeiT4X1MP+1T1N7a+Io9HpzOuL5cxuqQHBG0FNZG 1vLYoDCVi8Mf0lCqXaGEIcOX0DCFHqztSTDC+ZHxjwCAKcScK3AOdjJAkgJPc8jN 0T+GB7L3oGJLOXbPIwHkLHeMDgILMgGjz1C+utZJrBQC/ItauNPbgawAp2yhML14 680OIhhGWfS2seLaATM3+Rzd8FgqQnd3hJw3nJCaV2etAJkF2hZn5bLZ0OvJE+zY Zv634eqTl0b7wipVzXBxd5VefDyx0jBbzRm7DC0aKQeG+JhIFbp9YCEI6jXraLev gliLgDcrlwQB5nMyVDKK3i1FVWHDAh3UFOv0JCe3bSqU482ZhqOj/V/UR22Zn9tE EhuWXZSm98sZ4SW7ugbzHqETPdHWZapnmhbQIiQTmWOCz7b8plo= =G9Yr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_31F02B09-C519-43BE-9587-FDC63B16295B-- From nobody Sat Sep 18 01:54:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3973A133A for ; 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BZvwcxd00LKJA2dHIIwbrX7ZItlC6eZpBki10xsVZQ14kum4cl5dzzCIRWZJMoG9kw29iLpDcRaN OQQZNUuTKeJdD.AwznUNetE949IvGpmt.U_DznOckwB7yWo6baBDEgoskH2Cwur0AA7x_.mKnceF KcN.dFQwOQzEZjVSi6HaX_8cep1l4GQHCyxS95vASiHH.2R8WyBAJiwLLVN_bMn1gPs0- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:54:35 +0000 Received: by kubenode520.mail-prod1.omega.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c06ee3afc33ea45272ce4317338041b5; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:54:30 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:54:26 +1000 Message-Id: References: Cc: Lloyd W , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" In-Reply-To: To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:54:44 -0000 > On 18 Sep 2021, at 17:25, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric t= erm, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from other= regions when they first encounter it. >=20 > I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be h= appy to remove it again. Sergeant At Arms is a loaded term with multiple meanings. If you look at th= e origin of the term, it's a lackey appointed by the king... which is to say= , here, the IETF chair. And yet the IETF has a mantra, increasingly hard to b= elieve, about no kings or presidents. If you look at the US house of representatives, the SAA is appointed by the h= ouse - the deliberative body. If you look at Robert's Rules of Order, belove= d by a certain type of US military mind, it's slightly different again. The r= eference to Wikipedia does not clarify the sense of use or the scope of the r= ole intended in your draft. Now, the SAAs have indeed proved to be lackeys of the IETF Chair, doing the c= hair's bidding, and that has been well documented (the former chair restrict= ed my and others' postings on a pet terminology topic for five days a year a= go. major embarrassing snit.) That hasn't changed. I do think it should be c= hanged -- no kings, presidents, or IETF chairs driving pet hobbyhorses -- an= d that the chair's powers are not yet restricted enough. But, more immediately, the text as written in your draft says 'appointed by'= twice in succession - by different entities. One of those is clearly not tr= ue, or you're not at all clear on what being appointed means. This is more t= han just a typo nit, it goes to,the heart of who the SAA is responsible to. Personally, I dislike the SAA term and its militaristic and hierarchical con= notations - but, given what the SAAs currently are, it's actually fair warni= ng. And, as you say, it's unclear to those outside imperial or westminster t= rappings. 'moderators' may be clearer. it is, after all, just a mailing list= . But how they are appointed and who they are responsible to needs to be cle= arer. best Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk= From nobody Sat Sep 18 02:04:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 6CF533A13ED; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:04:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A4A3A13EC for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:04:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.co.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBUZ8uCroFQv for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic307-53.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic307-53.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [87.248.110.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7834E3A13EA for ; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:04:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s2048; t=1631955881; bh=s96TNMmx+lNiyh6XmNxI9QVprhZquO5zB0fl2kRQb3o=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=M7Nf/zTfx6IBgSajs0nV7i2yC0iC1WXzeHAdj7iu1dxAPH5h5Sqk6cbmHYtEnWy1G5HQaGV5TBF3g3HD2hgVex+tNdrBlwJi45aVGEqcb2phQP72K2BKw2KKsKbrylSdjaOm1rYo0NvaFflu0YAAL4kQyJ8n9eXTUFPeNCk7GZhFntrVLTQUpdq2qBAF8nfiB14nscIpOmkwTWOb/vAmWuK2AED0hV97slpeEtyau59s4BgegO1sGvYagcBXKXoNdDLg1bfVZCHgu12JxtRQnW9iDiDzNO3i1lQXAymXODCEbd0HOnfg3ecEhjjbz99MphL87TuaFq+bwGqxCgDHjg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1631955881; bh=+KrKE8JcDfLGU9dDc899pXJvGUtd0PozD4cOcWlyqpb=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:Subject:Date:To:From:Subject; b=dx1ANIW3Nkt6eNhAQ+Te+rN3n/3w+bGT75m7sJNT5aT/O2Sd7EPjJnJfhXPjnPyk66Yvx/mDHW/fY3MZvLf3WYmi+BR00wUult2Q+ZOdLy+GBKwz0XySlmkY+pceQLuAR5Rs0Rte1eONXVl35R+msQd39/QUnPK+/bOJc3QfKguuZwNCJsFnXK0O9qcYgRzsZjhlvKhcGK18AdQeHfMYigfB2EnGROFa9PUmUjSX3ZfKsRy4Y2R9c/huCnZk1EJxcIljX/HubvNRonbjKGooPDDF5thLidE+rtWwYHjib9ZoBxojdvueW3OzegYXjimt1gKWiy84MDRlep5fDf75Gg== X-YMail-OSG: KZhhZfwVM1kWU7Edw.48mZHGGUzeN1U1zTABjC.e4TsVq7NJ0H93fJ0fKBNSXFw NdNhLqMYTneEjEXed6O9HRglmGuylyRP0vNtpb1_054O4JHIhFpD8RhfQX6S_5K.rZZq_k7rvx1Z sCtVFDXA2pFZjzaw3HetK78WaIyWuhRpUXPIh1wjFzSve2hkLQVKK2elwnsoDkNeF2NGyglyTHAs OJxuJHo1VIlVEr66tnKAIbJQAI3xPQbknaNQITVLiDbQyq7AUrT0g6fEDteMHmcgvekXRwZ5cNfy DyZO2aSJE_qqXTJUoS_y91ahrhX9Tt92MVzZORhqK3NNwXvqJJoYvTwJ0EwEcNnh_DEMxSNrh7Wu eNTZ1hJR8vR0S9reHxDB2LkDjwORLZjEP4BNjVgjlyTt77yGxinTt9yVJ8PeAXYyXBngS6V946co PmWv8l4a__aKOHKm9dAIWY2rek4GLnc6OO5Bk2n9NmVkTe.s4dPZ3M5EZkRWlaIyHctC.VF8M6ki 0iRqmdWaKGf3oZpWu31vJ2J0QGmSo0i_RVUQf_Tp8dUnBXZgaJa4TW4JOHI1BUzUWj2BPZEzz9sn lV.z2FQ0F0sAVLQ7B4WAiaB.pPnL2KeFZ5UDyrBw3T.TkcWU.LH62OGfOD_MSoFUFZAY03DfHcA. 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BZvwcxd00LKJA2dHIIwbrX7ZItlC6eZpBki10xsVZQ14kum4cl5dzzCIRWZJMoG9kw29iLpDcRaN OQQZNUuTKeJdD.AwznUNetE949IvGpmt.U_DznOckwB7yWo6baBDEgoskH2Cwur0AA7x_.mKnceF KcN.dFQwOQzEZjVSi6HaX_8cep1l4GQHCyxS95vASiHH.2R8WyBAJiwLLVN_bMn1gPs0- X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:04:41 +0000 Received: by kubenode520.mail-prod1.omega.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID c06ee3afc33ea45272ce4317338041b5; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 08:54:30 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lloyd W Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 18:54:26 +1000 Message-Id: References: Cc: Lloyd W , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" In-Reply-To: To: Lars Eggert X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18H17) Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210918090448.6CF533A13ED@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 02:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:04:49 -0000 > On 18 Sep 2021, at 17:25, Lars Eggert wrote: >=20 > I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric t= erm, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from other= regions when they first encounter it. >=20 > I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be h= appy to remove it again. Sergeant At Arms is a loaded term with multiple meanings. If you look at th= e origin of the term, it's a lackey appointed by the king... which is to say= , here, the IETF chair. And yet the IETF has a mantra, increasingly hard to b= elieve, about no kings or presidents. If you look at the US house of representatives, the SAA is appointed by the h= ouse - the deliberative body. If you look at Robert's Rules of Order, belove= d by a certain type of US military mind, it's slightly different again. The r= eference to Wikipedia does not clarify the sense of use or the scope of the r= ole intended in your draft. Now, the SAAs have indeed proved to be lackeys of the IETF Chair, doing the c= hair's bidding, and that has been well documented (the former chair restrict= ed my and others' postings on a pet terminology topic for five days a year a= go. major embarrassing snit.) That hasn't changed. I do think it should be c= hanged -- no kings, presidents, or IETF chairs driving pet hobbyhorses -- an= d that the chair's powers are not yet restricted enough. But, more immediately, the text as written in your draft says 'appointed by'= twice in succession - by different entities. One of those is clearly not tr= ue, or you're not at all clear on what being appointed means. This is more t= han just a typo nit, it goes to,the heart of who the SAA is responsible to. Personally, I dislike the SAA term and its militaristic and hierarchical con= notations - but, given what the SAAs currently are, it's actually fair warni= ng. And, as you say, it's unclear to those outside imperial or westminster t= rappings. 'moderators' may be clearer. it is, after all, just a mailing list= . But how they are appointed and who they are responsible to needs to be cle= arer. best Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk= From nobody Mon Sep 20 04:59:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE6B3A1016; Mon, 20 Sep 2021 04:59:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk, lars@eggert.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.37.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163213914069.7343.8242241198381720553@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 04:59:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 112 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 11:59:02 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Kirsty Paine, a Chair of the gendispatch working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Kirsty Paine Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: genarea shmoo dispatch quic artarea emailcore iabopen Technology overlap: secdispatch rfcefdp Key participant conflict: tcpm People who must be present: Pete Resnick Lars Eggert Kirsty Paine Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Sep 22 17:08:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E68E3A0402 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k-r7qNv16lAu for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C66C3A0068 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id k23so3269163pji.0 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:subject:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7tDzu18LR/h55t2iNg3hag/0xYKa6b51kaMsdnjBSrs=; b=ZPuOMpNGNO0g5KoMa3MpTXqI3IapgBKEmMklNbhBnpHQWyKQqVnmdLoUxWHAnyUP4W 0zLTpiM9cbWW/9Xvhxf3YrcdKcOLr/sDoZ+C0cHwkW/aabomwKgKFN6um5MSXXUOlMbC fgFOnqLUHTTOfbrson3dN2DEZ7D7rDJrPp+wyGXjPtgIQfQjeN01oJ+tycWYnHCVJxNw U01R6h9zqmxqWjFotLC07RBcq/A+ZjKIYW7JmILr52LpEmW8muu2s9KEVPWCwFewZgBU 7w2VSOA6G+dbIvoXmv4Tb20DRtxhF03NkUm1b2Pb080nUP2D/iw/h1J62j1OE4pWfPK7 y8Jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7tDzu18LR/h55t2iNg3hag/0xYKa6b51kaMsdnjBSrs=; b=gQnma3qiN+kEX08kE0H/H4g7c/JbPr357WkWkqIwKK9YiMPlkKOrii3SsIsnoh1zvW 2+Pag+5WSBJq92hfkn+WRq8JoJ1Oe3MdVAcecuDQjsYDz0i2/KQdawABFJJeSSKbOdPg A9JEtkP52ZkwP1beu3hclH78SCEbPzZ1lrYwQNKbUXULpg3aiRcBFoPgGrk594RRog/s D3/Wk1cX/f2W5L/JNWLRJ5pwNjmFPob1BnBsWO2SIrex88rC51llcO0lkYC0DjbRfSWs BvRx7BNRQP8WNq4TJjoB3DlWft7n9/DSpYvyiOgaEo3z8Ie4Ig1uoko9zcPXAg58cQGu q2cQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DT3KNUMIPsCvRy54M8xF2qOpAX5Ws6BXKcCwqIuSMQac/Tb7i +1Ma1/OvFIuS4wJY9/lDRMhQ+iXfAp2JjA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6IzFDuVKL6eG6HoblS8lbfnrTzxj+XdqdI6tUnOtHI57HycJX0n+3sMl2s1UjgjhG1JBMGQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6e08:b0:13a:4335:e440 with SMTP id u8-20020a1709026e0800b0013a4335e440mr1330925plk.31.1632355684368; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u12sm4558508pjr.2.2021.09.22.17.08.02 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <163226234595.26314.3303201764983753982@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <216fa89e-532a-aa32-6298-3e1764856e09@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 12:07:58 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <163226234595.26314.3303201764983753982@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-02.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 00:08:11 -0000 Hi, This updates the exact phrase proposed for the IAB charter, and includes a temporary note about an issue in RFC2026. Discussion is welcome here, or on rfced-future@iab.org . My opinion is that this draft should be passed on to the IAB Chair and the General Area Director at the same time as the primary draft on the future RFC Editor model (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced-model) is handed over to the IAB. I will be fast asleep when the next gendispatch meeting takes place. If anyone thinks this needs to be on the agenda, please say so, but we'd need a volunteer to present it. Regards Brian -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-02.txt Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:12:26 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IAB Charter Update for RFC Editor Model Author : Brian E. Carpenter Filename : draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-02.txt Pages : 4 Date : 2021-09-21 Abstract: This document updates the IAB Charter (RFC 2850) to be consistent with the new model for the RFC Editor (draft-iab-rfcefdp-rfced- model). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter/ There is also an HTML version available at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-02.html A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-carpenter-rfced-iab-charter-02 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Fri Sep 24 18:47:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA753A0AB9 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFgxit7-Gehe for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD7A93A0AB4 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 18:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EEF75C00FE for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:47:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=w/z9j2 gxnURdB3AzbSuVISwT3totrpQAzgt7206qemU=; b=XSFLCSq76EiK6Bef2idoGM jzfdriZP1c3btlCMt742MigVBT69Gaeu8OIuJe38X/jNYP+A8EQs2JiiBZ4oGFCm FbWTJ2p0zuik5/7jhHulw7P870sEe+N3EQEgLPJZuD60AowWaCceMIID7ai6euvS 5JohBG9vUEvgRuzCC7c006Gte7nFwekmbs83TAo7vFc7ZiG7/aefEn1k0QQW8EGZ 99ZG88AXZqHZK+m1cG1epZmsr9SmI53DdbfbIr9/COCOiFufmP3qSMNK6NFi45FC 89Plc9ch9txtSCsPLeu4n6YBHqR0UhiYP9JzMrcpKQ6Ehpn0GBGT52B81WpA1BWg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejvddghedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkh dqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:47:05 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 21:47:04 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D5BDEF254312D6EFB00312AF" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 01:47:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D5BDEF254312D6EFB00312AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 9/17/21 6:31 AM, Lloyd W wrote: > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: > > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for the > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair > > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a > deliberative body, > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. An SAA > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, > the list > itself, by the list members. > > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this can > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. > > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing > process > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept > of the > SAA as described. > 1.  From experience with several "moderation" events over the past few years, I believe the power to appoint SAAs (and by inference, to direct the SAAs) has been misused by IETF Chairs in the past on multiple occasions, such as to suppress useful input that the Chair at the time did not like.  I therefore believe that the IETF Chair should no longer be appointing or directing the SAA of the IETF list.   I believe that the SAAs should act as independent, generally neutral moderators whose decisions can be overridden by IAB, and that the SAAs should instead be appointed by the nomcom or perhaps the IAB Chair. Separating the SAA function from IESG entirely would leave IESG freer to concentrate on providing technical direction and evaluating technical work. 2. The use of the term "unprofessional" remains problematic, both because the term is poorly defined, and because there are a number of associations with the word "professional" in employment settings that should not apply to the IETF.   For example, "professional" often means that you should not disagree with the technical opinions of your "superiors", whereas in IETF we should behave as peers on technical matters in order to preserve consensus-based decision making that at least to some extent helps to minimize decisions being made by major industry players without regard to other input. In practice, being "professional" often means "don't rock the boat", say by not contributing ideas that differ from what the corporate or community leaders seem to favor Professional can also mean not calling out abusive practices or practices that harm employees or the public. Professional" can also mean "be conventional" even when the notion of "conventional" is arbitrary and specific to or excludes a particular culture, region, gender and/or gender role, sexual preference, etc.   It can impose expectations on appearance and behavior in ways that do not affect the quality of work or job performance, such as by disallowing certain hairstyles, styles of dress, etc. "Professional" can even mean "follow industry conventions" even when such conventions lack justification, or are harmful to the industry or to ordinary people. In general what "professional" means is to conform to an unwritten set of arbitrary prejudices that "everybody is supposed to know" even though (or perhaps because) they're only vaguely defined and rarely, if ever, stated.   And for that reason, accusations of being "unprofessional" can be and sometimes are used to marginalize or punish anyone who is different in any way. These concerns could be addressed by either (a) not using any derivative of the word "professional" as criteria for what's appropriate for the IETF list; or (b) specifically defining "professional" in an IETF context. But I think it would better to not use the term at all, and instead of trying to exclude "negative" contributions, define positive criteria for what makes a constructive contribution to the discussion. For the above reasons I strongly recommend against publication of the current draft as an RFC. Keith --------------D5BDEF254312D6EFB00312AF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

On 9/17/21 6:31 AM, Lloyd W wrote:

As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent
experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: 

   A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative
   body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA].  SAAs for the
   IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair

The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberative body,
during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. An SAA
should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, the list
itself, by the list members.

Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this can
be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. 

I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing process
doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of the
SAA as described.

1.  From experience with several "moderation" events over the past few years, I believe the power to appoint SAAs (and by inference, to direct the SAAs) has been misused by IETF Chairs in the past on multiple occasions, such as to suppress useful input that the Chair at the time did not like.  I therefore believe that the IETF Chair should no longer be appointing or directing the SAA of the IETF list.   I believe that the SAAs should act as independent, generally neutral moderators whose decisions can be overridden by IAB, and that the SAAs should instead be appointed by the nomcom or perhaps the IAB Chair.  

Separating the SAA function from IESG entirely would leave IESG freer to concentrate on providing technical direction and evaluating technical work.

2. The use of the term "unprofessional" remains problematic, both because the term is poorly defined, and because there are a number of associations with the word "professional" in employment settings that should not apply to the IETF.   For example, "professional" often means that you should not disagree with the technical opinions of your "superiors", whereas in IETF we should behave as peers on technical matters in order to preserve consensus-based decision making that at least to some extent helps to minimize decisions being made by major industry players without regard to other input.  

In practice, being "professional" often means "don't rock the boat", say by not contributing ideas that differ from what the corporate or community leaders seem to favor

Professional can also mean not calling out abusive practices or practices that harm employees or the public. 

Professional" can also mean "be conventional" even when the notion of "conventional" is arbitrary and specific to or excludes a particular culture, region, gender and/or gender role, sexual preference, etc.   It can impose expectations on appearance and behavior in ways that do not affect the quality of work or job performance, such as by disallowing certain hairstyles, styles of dress, etc.

"Professional" can even mean "follow industry conventions" even when such conventions lack justification, or are harmful to the industry or to ordinary people. 

In general what "professional" means is to conform to an unwritten set of arbitrary prejudices that "everybody is supposed to know" even though (or perhaps because) they're only vaguely defined and rarely, if ever, stated.   And for that reason, accusations of being "unprofessional" can be and sometimes are used to marginalize or punish anyone who is different in any way.


These concerns could be addressed by either (a) not using any derivative of the word "professional" as criteria for what's appropriate for the IETF list; or (b) specifically defining "professional" in an IETF context.

But I think it would better to not use the term at all, and instead of trying to exclude "negative" contributions, define positive criteria for what makes a constructive contribution to the discussion.   

For the above reasons I strongly recommend against publication of the current draft as an RFC.

Keith


--------------D5BDEF254312D6EFB00312AF-- From nobody Fri Sep 24 19:19:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152A63A0FF0 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C3k0Z1RZW1n6 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29C563A0FEE for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id m11so15097873ioo.6 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t20mY6cTp5o9kT5chtVIhsg5D9+zxTgYAnYZH0PBOtY=; b=VSmAtzhl763mga+H0RXk2ldXQzh6J22C2pY3J1IIBMuMAUigfaCRFU4x3dZkJojkRy 7xa3i1zylJHDeNpFj7OqEXYecyQTlz+PKDNS9zCO4UK0BJoGRX6JtsNOIS9TNw/LA6R8 wUPaNalOxsQoTu/jDXJEttJxR58bp2WYaABOHOs0zhtpxcCQMOmgu2/U+l3xbXKeQZFJ a+r3sJ6BkspKWPqHtPWe76ZiraLnQ9SxI43p/U07TMT6kEybalwAzm8taC9FVauK2ux1 rhzhBe+x5eGIErS8EkVEvmTniGr9mfEDCJEpAVkDCq3BHeIDuYy3h1Iyklq6jN2Kauu/ 8iEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t20mY6cTp5o9kT5chtVIhsg5D9+zxTgYAnYZH0PBOtY=; b=IreAEAu94WvnlZqZJtXuyMixEOt5xjTiqQxbPP8YLddW7q/04NyktlGaGAWj4YAbCj rINuYHdcczl320+k6QVRzlxnc3jvFdMQqL+a6JddvEfVhVaA05u/Z7ODqmn1kWqV41u4 ixhy80cQ82dxwjxDe4q+qXadiBefHnsda+bj1Vn0AAW4vrAm5r2hXEim0WNkJIHWChQc fuMeeV3hjsoz/ovkZ+38PJKL3xHlK98vZ4+6UiYKyloITc57MRaHEIj0/Yj1HsGeXB2A 5BeLNBA7eLaDZ+zUOvPJIqpjbnyHfp/Fe/Nc6foYXwu3komnGbjvDLCi/S639epymIX9 mX9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ux7OGX+ph63Kimv0axYAbP/XN2E6zzrIoSIlCg7O+6Etjr2b0 B6xqQ5nZIyaF0xAfpksZ7Ra48Mc8EeKYA2seumh8Bw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQjkq5SuKpMKHZaz2YBGvUPscIgo62QRsR8A/UJLGbC/hYcWIKQsSQdeJRcWYlGZOIyg3vL18k8O59uyKVXfA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1a:: with SMTP id b26mr11635721ioa.0.1632536348732; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:18:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Lloyd W , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026443205ccc87d69" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:19:15 -0000 --00000000000026443205ccc87d69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those changes in the form of a draft. -Ekr On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W > wrote: > > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent > > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: > > > > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative > > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for th= e > > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair > > > > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberativ= e > body, > > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. > > I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric > term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from > other regions when they first encounter it. > > I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be > happy to remove it again. > > > An SAA > > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, > the list > > itself, by the list members. > > Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is no= t > intending to change that. > > > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this > can > > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. > > If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually > significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows fo= r > the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the > practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes tha= t > option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it > clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewha= t > unclear. > > > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing > process > > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of > the > > SAA as described. > > If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do > so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, > because BCP45 would remain unchanged. > > Thanks, > Lars > > > > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BF > >> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturd= ay. > >> > >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change= . > >> > >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is accept= able to > you. Please clarify if this is not the case. > >> > >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further > comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong objectio= ns then on > Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80=99= ll kick off IETF > LC. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Rob > >> > >> > >> From: Brian Carpenter > >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 > >> To: Lars Eggert > >> Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List < > gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - > draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt > >> > >> Hi Lars, > >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the > procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Brian Carpenter > >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) > >> > >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: > >> Hi Brian, > >> > >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is > that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Lars > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > >> > >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >> >> > >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by th= e > >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > >> > > >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair i= s > >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > >> > should be the first recourse in that case. > >> > > >> > Brian > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Barry > >> >> > >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Hi, > >> >>> > >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process > in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the > current change: > >> >>> > >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >> >>> > >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even i= f > the IETF > >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - > any SAA > >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review > the situation > >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. > Decisions by the > >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per > {{!RFC2026}}. > >> >>> > >> >>> # Security Considerations > >> >>> > >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> Lars > >> >>> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Gendispatch mailing list > >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > >> > >> -- > >> Gendispatch mailing list > >> Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --00000000000026443205ccc87d69 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who = would prefer some more global change to the SAA process should instead prop= ose those changes in the form of a draft.

-Ekr=


On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
> As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent<= br> > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a del= iberative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA].= =C2=A0 SAAs for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair
>
> The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberati= ve body,
> during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body.
I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric te= rm, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from other= regions when they first encounter it.

I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd al= so be happy to remove it again.

> An SAA
> should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, = the list
> itself, by the list members.

Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is = not intending to change that.

> Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this= can
> be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power.

If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually signi= ficantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows for the C= hair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the prac= tice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes that opti= on, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it clarifie= s that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewhat unclear.=

> I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing pr= ocess
> doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic conce= pt of the
> SAA as described.

If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do so= . Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, bec= ause BCP45 would remain unchanged.

Thanks,
Lars


>
> Lloyd Wood
> lloyd.wood= @yahoo.co.uk
>
>> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Sa= turday.
>>
>> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this ch= ange.
>>
>> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is ac= ceptable to you.=C2=A0 Please clarify if this is not the case.
>>
>> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further = comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text.=C2=A0 If there are no strong objec= tions then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change an= d I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38
>> To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
>> Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert= -bcp45bis-04.txt
>>
>> Hi Lars,
>> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's pr= obably the procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it.=
>>
>> Regards,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand i= t is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lars
>>
>> --
>> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmai= l.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>> >>
>> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chai= r, but I don't
>> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appoi= nted by the
>> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>> >
>> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where t= he IETF Chair is
>> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by th= e SAAs
>> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably anot= her AD
>> > should be the first recourse in that case.
>> >
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Barry
>> >>
>> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wro= te:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 ap= peals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bc= p45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change:
>> >>>
>> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF C= hair - even if the IETF
>> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of t= he SAA team - any SAA
>> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall= then review the situation
>> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own cho= osing.
>> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!R= FC2026}}. Decisions by the
>> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, aga= in per {{!RFC2026}}.
>> >>>
>> >>> # Security Considerations
>> >>>
>> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?=
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Lars
>> >>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Gendispatch mailing list
>> > Gen= dispatch@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /gendispatch
>>
>> --
>> Gendispatch mailing list
>> Gendispa= tch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen= dispatch
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch

--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--00000000000026443205ccc87d69-- From nobody Fri Sep 24 19:19:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 5CF083A0FF1; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B131D3A0FEC for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dddoptERYOAn for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B85193A0FEB for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id d18so15006221iof.13 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t20mY6cTp5o9kT5chtVIhsg5D9+zxTgYAnYZH0PBOtY=; b=VSmAtzhl763mga+H0RXk2ldXQzh6J22C2pY3J1IIBMuMAUigfaCRFU4x3dZkJojkRy 7xa3i1zylJHDeNpFj7OqEXYecyQTlz+PKDNS9zCO4UK0BJoGRX6JtsNOIS9TNw/LA6R8 wUPaNalOxsQoTu/jDXJEttJxR58bp2WYaABOHOs0zhtpxcCQMOmgu2/U+l3xbXKeQZFJ a+r3sJ6BkspKWPqHtPWe76ZiraLnQ9SxI43p/U07TMT6kEybalwAzm8taC9FVauK2ux1 rhzhBe+x5eGIErS8EkVEvmTniGr9mfEDCJEpAVkDCq3BHeIDuYy3h1Iyklq6jN2Kauu/ 8iEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t20mY6cTp5o9kT5chtVIhsg5D9+zxTgYAnYZH0PBOtY=; b=GaeihiKZrpXnYMxtYxwvBonXlKKkn5RW+sRFOHgQfyqxNpGjLMy05clVzz310NumB6 LObW/3pAQ5SAhGLuiWyBmLBpHyNIndG+UKNsa7XmIT+uw10M0lFqI3wbMvoWOI+x9Ezn Ybaj1lp04qdoNhW/tK76dcpFyPN9PQJ9xcOTqWMLX1HM5MN+TjTdtZwvBwxPFP9kplCo SObCSCN7WPXCtNA+MECtU3tQWNkUw6ibMTOPShZWAMcdZTcjPIj+J8B8Pmea2gxqBYJd Drs1VQCJqhM8RY1guIe+8/CUZVW8Rrv7TE3wckNedDZnYFmhPBrFbNLC2/ZSB7USkbIa tw/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531eLhCShmnlLkSAQB2SaqeTqlUxrGFRaUtWqDLNlH4OXiJo/1rY CWLPjHlst7jWXdqbcCcDndwLVIwpjgvIllu9WhPYwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQjkq5SuKpMKHZaz2YBGvUPscIgo62QRsR8A/UJLGbC/hYcWIKQsSQdeJRcWYlGZOIyg3vL18k8O59uyKVXfA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:1a:: with SMTP id b26mr11635721ioa.0.1632536348732; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:18:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Lloyd W , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026443205ccc87d69" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210925021916.5CF083A0FF1@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:19:17 -0000 --00000000000026443205ccc87d69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those changes in the form of a draft. -Ekr On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W > wrote: > > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent > > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: > > > > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative > > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for th= e > > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair > > > > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberativ= e > body, > > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. > > I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric > term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from > other regions when they first encounter it. > > I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be > happy to remove it again. > > > An SAA > > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, > the list > > itself, by the list members. > > Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is no= t > intending to change that. > > > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this > can > > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. > > If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually > significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows fo= r > the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the > practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes tha= t > option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it > clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewha= t > unclear. > > > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing > process > > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of > the > > SAA as described. > > If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do > so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, > because BCP45 would remain unchanged. > > Thanks, > Lars > > > > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BF > >> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturd= ay. > >> > >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change= --00000000000026443205ccc87d69-- From nobody Fri Sep 24 20:00:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F8F3A1269; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CS-SN-QQDKfa; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849D33A1260; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id 134so15130344iou.12; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1wR+t6YO2H/UjFjdXlf+HEVrhlMeBIJYzGBpbWUOETA=; b=e1BjGBMVLlIlOAzH5zQ9f4Uh8nE9hknpEJVBbaAgKCXryRV5xDS3kEHo88VA2DDDlV CRCAoCSnwT3knIIykm5oDaGf4rRApl+U74v2Scm1RaeCgbUJgxu4y63Wjoz8DfOyA58q 4IL1ZsVWW2A1jjEoecwKKVUaTQOdgalWkiSvPAf73atuJ92+Sko6PhX68QmtWEXo630q c3k1UERVBxOuMb4qek+5p+80HpWHnPA0zFGZ1I/tVbwFFtJ/tZpgA6H5BiJWadTa/NP1 Q+XHehvxGSJMV09SaaBK/on3Jf7qslUioEloRikMJW0P//ILWcm9vY0uz1JRpnV5X7D9 eUlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1wR+t6YO2H/UjFjdXlf+HEVrhlMeBIJYzGBpbWUOETA=; b=4qB7F/U0gNRKHaL/e2d9Y6/M5aOoO+nrpCHK+rt/xLzWwcLoBVF9aZL8GMFB6AJOOF EEkRrhjl/YhMbWqhC8bktfkU0Al8MMoY0sujWbneNkk459N64H33Ds4E1FBHVziUc6Uq ghoUufLtNteaD1NWhyHmTOi8zdv4Gj6Hrx94SuiGYiyOLLStvA6mW2d+VnaO3L4M5eV4 UtT1ctXk1pczesZ5bdUSarqK4jNOQTXPfvxdft41dhwocnI3+nmH5XYQcbrHCvLpqgIL 3NUeQkhYxP3nXYJfn/jTxHu931m1uKvILdsY/17X7Qhqd3HLU7q5BIAzhBz3rDsn7UDg jMUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533yfQt7YdHI8ha5vzxoGbtuwf+6j99VYJ/OJGnHjWVMKNY+cNnV 3dthHMbYvUg9x+Cl26rPoJSElATBuEykO2sw4bc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHAeTXcerqMwyde/emp5SvPcckmwDyzr4RsoiHuEj7pXlfMCkPBsBh3ghNBmvcq6FlJ5RcQZbJRjBgSstP8LU= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:959a:: with SMTP id a26mr11473949ioo.154.1632538805423; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , Lars Eggert , Lloyd W , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 03:00:12 -0000 --0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also in favor of publishing, but do agree that SAA is a rather pompous term for =E2=80=9Cmoderator=E2=80=9D. That wording doesn=E2=80=99t need to chang= e now, though. thanks, Rob On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 7:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some > more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those change= s > in the form of a draft. > > -Ekr > > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W >> wrote: >> > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent >> > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: >> > >> > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative >> > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for t= he >> > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair >> > >> > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a >> deliberative body, >> > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. >> >> I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric >> term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from >> other regions when they first encounter it. >> >> I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be >> happy to remove it again. >> >> > An SAA >> > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, >> the list >> > itself, by the list members. >> >> Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is >> not intending to change that. >> >> > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this >> can >> > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. >> >> If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually >> significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows f= or >> the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the >> practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes th= at >> option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it >> clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewh= at >> unclear. >> >> > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing >> process >> > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept o= f >> the >> > SAA as described. >> >> If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do >> so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, >> because BCP45 would remain unchanged. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> >> > >> > Lloyd Wood >> > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> > >> >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) > 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Satur= day. >> >> >> >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this chang= e. >> >> >> >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is accep= table to >> you. Please clarify if this is not the case. >> >> >> >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further >> comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong objecti= ons then on >> Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80= =99ll kick off IETF >> LC. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Brian Carpenter >> >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 >> >> To: Lars Eggert >> >> Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List < >> gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - >> draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt >> >> >> >> Hi Lars, >> >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the >> procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Brian Carpenter >> >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) >> >> >> >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> >> >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it i= s >> that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lars >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >> >> >> >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don'= t >> >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by t= he >> >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >> >> > >> >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair = is >> >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs >> >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD >> >> > should be the first recourse in that case. >> >> > >> >> > Brian >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Barry >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hi, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals proces= s >> in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the >> current change: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even >> if the IETF >> >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team = - >> any SAA >> >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review >> the situation >> >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. >> Decisions by the >> >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per >> {{!RFC2026}}. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> # Security Considerations >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> Lars >> >> >>> >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gendispatch mailing list >> >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also in favor of publishing, but do agree that SAA is a r= ather pompous term for =E2=80=9Cmoderator=E2=80=9D. That wording doesn=E2= =80=99t need to change now, though.

thanks,
Rob

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at = 7:19 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com&= gt; wrote:
I = am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some more g= lobal change to the SAA process should instead propose those changes in the= form of a draft.

-Ekr


On = Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
> As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent<= br> > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a del= iberative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA].= =C2=A0 SAAs for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair
>
> The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberati= ve body,
> during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body.
I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric te= rm, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from other= regions when they first encounter it.

I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd al= so be happy to remove it again.

> An SAA
> should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, = the list
> itself, by the list members.

Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is = not intending to change that.

> Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this= can
> be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power.

If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually signi= ficantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows for the C= hair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the prac= tice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes that opti= on, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it clarifie= s that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewhat unclear.=

> I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing pr= ocess
> doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic conce= pt of the
> SAA as described.

If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do so= . Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, bec= ause BCP45 would remain unchanged.

Thanks,
Lars


>
> Lloyd Wood
> lloyd.wood= @yahoo.co.uk
>
>> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Sa= turday.
>>
>> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this ch= ange.
>>
>> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is ac= ceptable to you.=C2=A0 Please clarify if this is not the case.
>>
>> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further = comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text.=C2=A0 If there are no strong objec= tions then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change an= d I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38
>> To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
>> Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert= -bcp45bis-04.txt
>>
>> Hi Lars,
>> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's pr= obably the procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it.=
>>
>> Regards,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand i= t is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lars
>>
>> --
>> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmai= l.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>> >>
>> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chai= r, but I don't
>> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appoi= nted by the
>> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>> >
>> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where t= he IETF Chair is
>> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by th= e SAAs
>> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably anot= her AD
>> > should be the first recourse in that case.
>> >
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Barry
>> >>
>> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wro= te:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 ap= peals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bc= p45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change:
>> >>>
>> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF C= hair - even if the IETF
>> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of t= he SAA team - any SAA
>> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall= then review the situation
>> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own cho= osing.
>> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!R= FC2026}}. Decisions by the
>> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, aga= in per {{!RFC2026}}.
>> >>>
>> >>> # Security Considerations
>> >>>
>> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?=
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Lars
>> >>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Gendispatch mailing list
>> > Gen= dispatch@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /gendispatch
>>
>> --
>> Gendispatch mailing list
>> Gendispa= tch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen= dispatch
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch


--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd-- From nobody Fri Sep 24 20:00:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id ECCDB3A126B; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F8F3A1269; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CS-SN-QQDKfa; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849D33A1260; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id 134so15130344iou.12; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1wR+t6YO2H/UjFjdXlf+HEVrhlMeBIJYzGBpbWUOETA=; b=e1BjGBMVLlIlOAzH5zQ9f4Uh8nE9hknpEJVBbaAgKCXryRV5xDS3kEHo88VA2DDDlV CRCAoCSnwT3knIIykm5oDaGf4rRApl+U74v2Scm1RaeCgbUJgxu4y63Wjoz8DfOyA58q 4IL1ZsVWW2A1jjEoecwKKVUaTQOdgalWkiSvPAf73atuJ92+Sko6PhX68QmtWEXo630q c3k1UERVBxOuMb4qek+5p+80HpWHnPA0zFGZ1I/tVbwFFtJ/tZpgA6H5BiJWadTa/NP1 Q+XHehvxGSJMV09SaaBK/on3Jf7qslUioEloRikMJW0P//ILWcm9vY0uz1JRpnV5X7D9 eUlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1wR+t6YO2H/UjFjdXlf+HEVrhlMeBIJYzGBpbWUOETA=; b=4qB7F/U0gNRKHaL/e2d9Y6/M5aOoO+nrpCHK+rt/xLzWwcLoBVF9aZL8GMFB6AJOOF EEkRrhjl/YhMbWqhC8bktfkU0Al8MMoY0sujWbneNkk459N64H33Ds4E1FBHVziUc6Uq ghoUufLtNteaD1NWhyHmTOi8zdv4Gj6Hrx94SuiGYiyOLLStvA6mW2d+VnaO3L4M5eV4 UtT1ctXk1pczesZ5bdUSarqK4jNOQTXPfvxdft41dhwocnI3+nmH5XYQcbrHCvLpqgIL 3NUeQkhYxP3nXYJfn/jTxHu931m1uKvILdsY/17X7Qhqd3HLU7q5BIAzhBz3rDsn7UDg jMUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533yfQt7YdHI8ha5vzxoGbtuwf+6j99VYJ/OJGnHjWVMKNY+cNnV 3dthHMbYvUg9x+Cl26rPoJSElATBuEykO2sw4bc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHAeTXcerqMwyde/emp5SvPcckmwDyzr4RsoiHuEj7pXlfMCkPBsBh3ghNBmvcq6FlJ5RcQZbJRjBgSstP8LU= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:959a:: with SMTP id a26mr11473949ioo.154.1632538805423; Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Barry Leiba , GENDISPATCH List , Lars Eggert , Lloyd W , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210925030011.ECCDB3A126B@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 20:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 03:00:12 -0000 --0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also in favor of publishing, but do agree that SAA is a rather pompous term for =E2=80=9Cmoderator=E2=80=9D. That wording doesn=E2=80=99t need to chang= e now, though. thanks, Rob On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 7:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some > more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those change= s > in the form of a draft. > > -Ekr > > > On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W >> wrote: >> > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent >> > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: >> > >> > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative >> > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for t= he >> > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair >> > >> > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a >> deliberative body, >> > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. >> >> I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric >> term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from >> other regions when they first encounter it. >> >> I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be >> happy to remove it again. >> >> > An SAA >> > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, >> the list >> > itself, by the list members. >> >> Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is >> not intending to change that. >> >> > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this >> can >> > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. >> >> If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually >> significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows f= or >> the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the >> practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes th= at >> option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it >> clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewh= at >> unclear. >> >> > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing >> process >> > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept o= f >> the >> > SAA as described. >> >> If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do >> so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, >> because BCP45 would remain unchanged. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> >> > >> > Lloyd Wood >> > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk >> > >> >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) > 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Satur= day. >> >> >> >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this chang= e. >> >> >> >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is accep= table to >> you. Please clarify if this is not the case. >> >> >> >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further >> comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text. If there are no strong objecti= ons then on >> Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I=E2=80= =99ll kick off IETF >> LC. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Rob >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Brian Carpenter >> >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 >> >> To: Lars Eggert >> >> Cc: Barry Leiba ; GENDISPATCH List < >> gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org >> >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - >> draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt >> >> >> >> Hi Lars, >> >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the >> procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Brian Carpenter >> >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) >> >> >> >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, wrote: >> >> Hi Brian, >> >> >> >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it i= s >> that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lars >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. >> >> >> >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: >> >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don'= t >> >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by t= he >> >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. >> >> > >> >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair = is >> >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs >> >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD >> >> > should be the first recourse in that case. >> >> > >> >> > Brian >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Barry >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Hi, >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals proces= s >> in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the >> current change: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md >> >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even >> if the IETF >> >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team = - >> any SAA >> >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review >> the situation >> >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. >> >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. >> Decisions by the >> >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per >> {{!RFC2026}}. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> # Security Considerations >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> Lars >> >> >>> >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Gendispatch mailing list >> >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- >> > Gendispatch mailing list >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > >> >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >> > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also in favor of publishing, but do agree that SAA is a r= ather pompous term for =E2=80=9Cmoderator=E2=80=9D. That wording doesn=E2= =80=99t need to change now, though.

thanks,
Rob

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at = 7:19 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com&= gt; wrote:
I = am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some more g= lobal change to the SAA process should instead propose those changes in the= form of a draft.

-Ekr


On = Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
> As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent<= br> > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a del= iberative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA].= =C2=A0 SAAs for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair
>
> The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberati= ve body,
> during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body.
I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric te= rm, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from other= regions when they first encounter it.

I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd al= so be happy to remove it again.

> An SAA
> should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, = the list
> itself, by the list members.

Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is = not intending to change that.

> Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this= can
> be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power.

If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually signi= ficantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows for the C= hair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the prac= tice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes that opti= on, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it clarifie= s that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewhat unclear.=

> I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing pr= ocess
> doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic conce= pt of the
> SAA as described.

If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do so= . Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, bec= ause BCP45 would remain unchanged.

Thanks,
Lars


>
> Lloyd Wood
> lloyd.wood= @yahoo.co.uk
>
>> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> I=E2=80=99ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Sa= turday.
>>
>> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this ch= ange.
>>
>> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text is ac= ceptable to you.=C2=A0 Please clarify if this is not the case.
>>
>> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further = comments on Lar=E2=80=99s proposed text.=C2=A0 If there are no strong objec= tions then on Friday I=E2=80=99ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change an= d I=E2=80=99ll kick off IETF LC.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38
>> To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
>> Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert= -bcp45bis-04.txt
>>
>> Hi Lars,
>> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's pr= obably the procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it.=
>>
>> Regards,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(via tiny screen & keyboard)
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand i= t is that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lars
>>
>> --
>> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos.
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmai= l.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > =EF=BB=BFOn 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote:
>> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks.
>> >>
>> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chai= r, but I don't
>> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appoi= nted by the
>> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area.
>> >
>> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where t= he IETF Chair is
>> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by th= e SAAs
>> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably anot= her AD
>> > should be the first recourse in that case.
>> >
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Barry
>> >>
>> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wro= te:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 ap= peals process in https://github.com/larseggert/bc= p45bis/pull/7/files. This is the current change:
>> >>>
>> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md
>> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner.
>> >>>
>> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF C= hair - even if the IETF
>> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of t= he SAA team - any SAA
>> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall= then review the situation
>> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own cho= osing.
>> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!R= FC2026}}. Decisions by the
>> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, aga= in per {{!RFC2026}}.
>> >>>
>> >>> # Security Considerations
>> >>>
>> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired?=
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Lars
>> >>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Gendispatch mailing list
>> > Gen= dispatch@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /gendispatch
>>
>> --
>> Gendispatch mailing list
>> Gendispa= tch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen= dispatch
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispa= tch


--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--
Gendispatch mailing list
Gendispatch@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch
--0000000000009452ce05ccc90fcd-- From nobody Sun Sep 26 11:30:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1323A2EDA for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:29:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q67VTPbbtHmt for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DF8B3A2ED7 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872455C00C4 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:29:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=Ka7Yfagwimizey2b8yQDgtzWF8KS53psJVo4W8PfX h8=; b=g/KNGfZHiyed5lUUIjZKqJa2YYHnzyMT1bqxIVCkJIAc0LlacTv8IecIp y8L5YaulfcykPxcKrgsUixNK12H/dA0A+e0DsjTLB026XCXvHwWw1XoiMNtTy7aO a8rB+IZHpxQMCHtvaK9WOXrz/2qSKkChyFHwSYD/1dXakRx3kDcNL06tBHp9fU/H yTxqCSQ0A8sM38CIH/qWFvt0JUYfO8mh+jV4cLB21QxOaSAjeWn5plFvZZEgSO3M eHuL3ttgB255/xoxcNqM1g2xoweNpAFCmw4N2DeuWhLMms4H2PPkXp73QbvatAC1 dYNdGl/JMl1NgxWmvRXyjSHx9FIGA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejiedguddvgecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedthe efgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifoh hrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:29:52 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:29:51 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:30:00 -0000 On 9/24/21 10:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some > more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those > changes in the form of a draft. Asking for a draft, or at least a concrete set of proposed changes to the current document, seems reasonable.  What does not seem reasonable is to publish the current draft before these identified problems are dealt with. Keith From nobody Sun Sep 26 11:38:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7E43A2F0C for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:38:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-i9E8hCERia for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95CC43A2F0A for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F03B5C009C for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:38:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=9ip9de3Y1AvYoP/PKXBfvDj6243B+udovdwKJSNKm Sk=; b=gDhOLcmHUR3XoZLE0AC2xVrBxWh3dcnRElaPvmy7iLRkvkrjberN6DrYq OIcA9rwtj0rK0CRvNwSgqgXxQJ01gaWfFli5tn0k6Dl3dPueFQ9dryJ1AvHHJgyy cBIo6YrCj1F7qKytLMBp3ucN1L/zbivaZAbUYLT0MqofoO+dFnXhKQ6pD0iPg+ct GLKnSPmxZNP1Pt5UY+TKdSx88Cpx3WjTnrkLzcil6kUOkR5ISSTojWgmPVq0WCcR 3XDXHnfnCwnsO2Lug/3Iiwt8GFWZKW30Ndl40BPBa7VU4erNcCxw64yEI7UKaGaP why2026qPe5L8GDbkpi9M8k7MuLTQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejiedguddvhecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephefhuedthe efgfefgffhkeehgfeugfeiudeugeejkeefleelueeiffetfeeuudeunecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifoh hrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:38:42 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:38:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:38:51 -0000 On 9/18/21 3:24 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > >> Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this can >> be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. > If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows for the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes that option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewhat unclear. What I believe has happened in recent years, is that one or more IETF Chairs (perhaps in consultation with IESG) have provided explicit direction to the SAAs, and without IETF Consensus backing for such direction or actions.   Unless I very much misunderstand the situation, to me this looks like a considerable extension of IETF Chair power that was not intended by BCP45. Keith From nobody Sun Sep 26 11:43:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00CD93A2F40 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DO3nXQSIsi7I for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAD973A2F6A for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id q205so19889505iod.8 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:43:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BQ7WF2gf1Ct9nDoMMcQRNVvtadro0cqk9PcVRqKpDPg=; b=vf3/dDsjA3/6/P1pfGsHukzMFr73SfVONSDLz7HBksYdiy5/DGxGVzc/9QrqTvydMb tY76FEgsnGxzGVjgOreRyPQlcp0d7mxFmuNHR0+Nt6+W1rZ0vvUScZLEVonDGHp6lkxM nEPv0oRBw9Skv9i9wMrTZxVyEMA+T2BM+fZAk0a7yy/yzZc0AYQO+uN7rvrPCI78b3M2 dVaRgMPd9Vns+IGz3sku63/h+edXBUXJInIAfumvFQaxF/QNweSRiSibnqx4U5Der50f jufi7n48yfbTukrADzQafOr3HdlwoCm48TkUZFOnE0rv4BTy51ZQ0lTW3qXLqKGayEUH vUtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BQ7WF2gf1Ct9nDoMMcQRNVvtadro0cqk9PcVRqKpDPg=; b=RLuOokHU4EkJW+Sui3vCScHRxoGdk9aVhYNsKB5xCBbgDjKPFSzw7WER4NunXLL/sW FelIb9ApvryJ6OuXRkHsVYbxju3xF4Uj2Mfkf+8xKNDiHqlCx3HVTR12WzAs1VzBZRcv TgqF8UJwcpgrdEzCtr3vcDz07Oh0fWLW2+zVsuAbZmtBcqUNATHYVpMhKz1nsLEHuBW3 LCbdHGrbsuAQU5DxRqKO8hDPgj6/WljDtvShhZeE/w1dfQJkQDgkTqQr0tFQrXhWCXRS oY268NW95DnjkSi7SAPjuiTGY57nu57S5fk7HNx2TAj1osW3Ie6LEIC9iWgrMEhFvlXP UmSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Gi3/V4sBFaCdSb6Ci1CfedQCLPIKy8rQTsHzFFcNkXLNtqGc7 2ej2Ko0cNe7pBDlCh2wCz7G7YClkDo+mTIDeBNYg1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqefGTM6HKTdYmYVATsXRD5MsjEsS7oDxs3D1xOev+1eKYINZmLMyKPTWF3kxlTIZsKdfcPkqagbERoAx8zJ8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:37a7:: with SMTP id w39mr17165589jal.19.1632681791743; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 11:42:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003a7d0105ccea5a02" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2021 18:43:28 -0000 --0000000000003a7d0105ccea5a02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Keith Moore wrote: > On 9/24/21 10:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some > > more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those > > changes in the form of a draft. > > Asking for a draft, or at least a concrete set of proposed changes to > the current document, seems reasonable. What does not seem reasonable > is to publish the current draft before these identified problems are > dealt with. > I believe we will simply have to disagree on this point -Ekr Keith > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > --0000000000003a7d0105ccea5a02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Keit= h Moore <moore@network-her= etics.com> wrote:
On 9/24/21 10:18 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some=
> more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those > changes in the form of a draft.

Asking for a draft, or at least a concrete set of proposed changes to
the current document, seems reasonable.=C2=A0 What does not seem reasonable=
is to publish the current draft before these identified problems are
dealt with.

I believe we will simply ha= ve to disagree on this point

-Ekr
--0000000000003a7d0105ccea5a02-- From nobody Sun Sep 26 17:05:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0E43A183A for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=YTZKvZIw; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=TiYV6gts Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcApVEo2O-vm for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F0823A1830 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 17:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2805C007B for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:05:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=sxTC/ 6tIMg4y8I/PmJkWQ5pcs98Go0w/ULzzGGAPIfI=; b=YTZKvZIwTeOAge71ujG73 Gebluhsyw9mih315DfbzBoOfKQBko3hc0KBQdasr4BYzXXhAAlOfWpRqer8GNV19 vLRagDay72TyjpCVGxuf8Y0B2h1m/IwjV+qZzhBZvPaikdeRTFXOT+bgjjhR2o6j ouHmUrGhU7WGGAyViVO7iIos2PUVBEJQshvdMwzzuBeDhI0asicng/JdqfiJe7qt k1sE8BLmCVYJl0o3UDHjvVh78fCZcbSfLuxZPx125h2iyf+cWKSMSTngwHD0mPHS TgM+XVniyalYT6gLFo4s5M7xIyecYvRxUGv8fk10qD6hjMeZslszv0seUtV6LynZ g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=sxTC/6tIMg4y8I/PmJkWQ5pcs98Go0w/ULzzGGAPI fI=; b=TiYV6gts28RjEn+BLvDrVf+FSW3bTaNZvZNW0232x70cfBvO/aiMfqbt+ xIyDNCGospPS5eqYQW737ya4ILjxXO4W1LiFHij+4RiJrhX7SwqmYvVCmMxax+wN z7XawNJ3j/G2T9Ios+zWv2rPyiyMW9gf3i2yDHVQQml5xxUJWuynreERcn4EfQak rqD4m5ISHQeAzOJ4bvXqEZDUg0K8ujHi+D/OCDp1DcvQZl0+fixjOhDZPLdIx722 GBdqHXeWb0YdmS0cSjycxmxxNYu3uR2DSBWOOqauULn9vheNYDS7b7DgeFHELUbK EcX1qNlE1Epwx0qmKD3Ls+c/Lx3jw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejjedgfedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtgfesth hqredtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehl ohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfejueduieffledtge elheejvdettdejudduhefggeefgfekgfeuieetgefftddtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihii vgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnh gvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4961E3C0E5F; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 20:05:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1303-gb2406efd75-fm-20210922.002-gb2406efd Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> References: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:04:53 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] =?utf-8?q?New_Version_Notification_-_draft-eggert-?= =?utf-8?q?bcp45bis-04=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:05:45 -0000 On Mon, Sep 27, 2021, at 04:29, Keith Moore wrote: > Asking for a draft, or at least a concrete set of proposed changes to=20 > the current document, seems reasonable.=C2=A0 What does not seem reaso= nable=20 > is to publish the current draft before these identified problems are=20 > dealt with. This is a process document. It describes how things work. Whether you = like current practices, there is still value in having processes documen= ted. I'm supportive of publishing this documentation of current practic= es. As far as changes to the moderation of some of the more contentious IETF= lists goes, it is very reasonable to start a discussion about how those= processes might be improved. It is perfectly normal for the update of = process documentation to stimulate thinking and conversations about impr= ovements to process. However, any changes that result belong in the NEX= T update. From nobody Sun Sep 26 23:56:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AB23A13D1 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 23:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stOY8v6kv3lo for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 23:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA9283A13D0 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2021 23:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:8959:e4c7:e08f:2df3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BD7B6003D5; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:56:22 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1632725783; bh=q/OyPGJ+LaFjbfFMkNRFMhW2k4u10YZ562svkl9ckQo=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=tI47BiTO3cCD45kuf4j1zS68e1JhbhyM+utkeafqxyzDT7RXKo7prYfjQlhPIyJu4 xZhDzWzxb4VKrtm2nssepe8JNWWscWsvtDO6cL5Lk4giW6D8gGDY326Sr/RzBxEqN2 ABxU2MOsT71LctzX7HAAxbZkaXPqOtzZCpTz/Cz4= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16E946F5-BD60-470B-8F4B-5D56BF51DB06"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:56:20 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Keith Moore References: X-MailScanner-ID: 2BD7B6003D5.A3842 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 06:56:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_16E946F5-BD60-470B-8F4B-5D56BF51DB06 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-25, at 4:47, Keith Moore wrote: > 1. =46rom experience with several "moderation" events over the past = few years, I believe the power to appoint SAAs (and by inference, to = direct the SAAs) has been misused by IETF Chairs in the past on multiple = occasions, such as to suppress useful input that the Chair at the time = did not like. under BCP45, the IETF Chair can directly restrict posting privileges of = individuals or on a thread, without involving the SAA team or relying on = their ability to appoint SAAs. You will find that BCP45bis removes this = ability, because practice for a number of yers has been to let the SAAs = operate independently. > I therefore believe that the IETF Chair should no longer be = appointing or directing the SAA of the IETF list. I believe that the = SAAs should act as independent, generally neutral moderators whose = decisions can be overridden by IAB, and that the SAAs should instead be = appointed by the nomcom or perhaps the IAB Chair. As has been suggested on this thread, if there is a desire for a more = fundamentally respecification of how list moderation on the discussion = list operates, this would be better handled as a separate work item. > Separating the SAA function from IESG entirely would leave IESG freer = to concentrate on providing technical direction and evaluating technical = work. Under BCP45 and BCP45bis, the IESG is not involved in the appointment or = operation of the SAAs. This is - and AFIK has been - always handled by = the IETF Chair. > 2. The use of the term "unprofessional" remains problematic, The term "unprofessional" appears once in BCP45bis, in a bullet item = that is directly taken from BCP45. > But I think it would better to not use the term at all, and instead of = trying to exclude "negative" contributions, define positive criteria for = what makes a constructive contribution to the discussion. BCP45 chose to do both, i.e., describe which topics are appropriate and = give examples of which are considered inappropriate. BCP45 retains that = structure. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_16E946F5-BD60-470B-8F4B-5D56BF51DB06 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFRaxQACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcmNBAAhxgpjQz+zTRcUgNssfMScRG0iDdrk9FEvl9pj9FPaABBDblSaHZEsbL4 JX3ZJxCbWuS7qdywoGCdpOWJgcyTj6RRyEz6KtxGu/P0jbqLCXDFZ0Sxz52DA11k 55NuSC8y+mtEB/AKHEmCn/dDTH6h3XIc7ZHndIWz82lVjYVHkOaWrMTJe7r+OAkr 7J0radg+uUgLIoGMmNIIZuk67rXQ+yaGn+Q/46vd6F2wtkfibjfPedz3ty4oPIKY I9twcBChYE07k6VAAQw/o26IlWdeuo+42viYXUREFRiSr0wwzidfy4CmjEdQ1g8j EHkn5CwJGuZ/CNXgXmMYoQialXtciTgpEmAv4zDfCxd28DyiKw8ZVgG6r84Vbp7g Sp3f2sxFg6Y6LAW+My2ilRdh5UYvciwHiMmXjZSp+802wnRRY3rNK6lC0DR9ZLRn 5SF6YRteVr1Gg6g5uUATlezlT9JEyXmPfHNVFpE18b413v4MhERUUFjsHuof3jMb 5Z3V1+M9BMz3ReKYkeCeADNLUCEzP160INEb/haTdIG3d47ArCY+/yMeyXwePpyV XOxVEXjm0kpDvndn7gokVCnXlUjA2pUSgBHakiuQb7xRChjRwnktK9sSmyP0es24 3d9YZMOSWuSHG2ehx+FpXXFzUdpUu8rVXQeHcBzD6u6uPDmhkxM= =DChP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_16E946F5-BD60-470B-8F4B-5D56BF51DB06-- From nobody Mon Sep 27 00:04:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A183A1432 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:04:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id maXZ0zy2TRDo for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 093AA3A1430 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:8959:e4c7:e08f:2df3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96CD26003D5; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:03:48 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1632726228; bh=uadEzZEcjTYclG+QIObNAKwVGdu2PhT4MTilj68iqkc=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=s95M8vIyZL+afovPGY5qbuN6ebC6jaK5KyCxKXhdasz+MfNgGLYJt/Vd5ZHKOXBpi GbH0AXrRAGdNYuDqm2PJ4lBQ5YCPRtbpk8QfQasT7PDLHsg14/2xcwqo3WUDX6oDJn ILcHgmumhVy+ghG0B+AKId9TuSmrxxaehhGrGlWg= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <659B9EF9-A565-45A0-A911-B289891F18C1@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_25A3218A-7F96-4CDE-A1CC-75D3029124F5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:03:47 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Keith Moore References: X-MailScanner-ID: 96CD26003D5.A18A4 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 07:04:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_25A3218A-7F96-4CDE-A1CC-75D3029124F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-26, at 21:38, Keith Moore wrote: > What I believe has happened in recent years, is that one or more IETF = Chairs (perhaps in consultation with IESG) have provided explicit = direction to the SAAs, as I just said in another reply, the IETF Chair under BCP45 is permitted = to directly restrict posting privileges, without the need to consult the = IESG or the SAA team. > and without IETF Consensus backing for such direction or actions. BCP45 does not require IETF consensus when posting privileges are = restricted. > Unless I very much misunderstand the situation, to me this looks like = a considerable extension of IETF Chair power that was not intended by = BCP45. I disagree. BCP45 is very clear on what powers it grants. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_25A3218A-7F96-4CDE-A1CC-75D3029124F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFRbNMACgkQVLXDCb9w wVckfRAAw9lklDwH3iwVaKZyxNBxZgQ8LgOUzOoqtEkTK0mh5fDF0q60iqlq9YGl xiSlYyMJ0jr+XldGVPA4FlMNYCYm9xA6/0RtWlIrLJU7M+3/Z/qHT8I0cpAuxB2w b7Zyr86p0kEtDmEuzR6rh9FnEbGe/bDAOmHKNBTssJhcKfyAiskJcpdKGllAd2yb twN9ZSjDraG+ri0d5XWBsmckicEDR8HMv1abfJegzrB1Mz+SuPygS8nqR5hpAzfm J/ns4L1tDdStBREzfwPkzfDSG3Mq83Rq7MXLWfEIDeUJ1KUGrsOa8jzlw6Jt6RJo m2pYWjmns2mA7aawfrZvq+SQ64dvyFcFbW6u5kAr8unay7BJJYXf/EVAce+xsyW+ Ak7+dA+ZQTIFsMqTPVQdjwp7vBp8ED7DtoHEuAGeCz+og2phhTmHwZWFQlt2UfA7 J4rS567JbUl9nmarAIC1f2J6066F1zfRht623RYEFdfMdPoY09gf6CAbLcXH0SUY ywRYrMWmK/bAnaaJ5QdTZQ5NNbnh9k4BOEWFER99a+6VBDSBa4yDiqLu8Iw9EXlQ GWMfi2gE8ldL/tFwZpCejK3Oy8AQOnpFTqm2F1coEnIIUmRxonUqVQlfhmwAr7Gx AaAaVtyOQY+JzFytZf8BGBBS1PIgCRj35ulOUCVArj1uRnSJ2JU= =Zyol -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_25A3218A-7F96-4CDE-A1CC-75D3029124F5-- From nobody Mon Sep 27 00:05:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77AF3A1440 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBi7jqVldh4Z for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 599EC3A1436 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 00:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:8959:e4c7:e08f:2df3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F9816003D5; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:04:50 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1632726290; bh=iLOT52UR3Z8ic6xGIgOIRJEfSSDKjJGphhxOc5xs/9M=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=b4HhuV59IU2LulLrmSINvxfxyjWFDtP4EiGnu53yNNzIT956BnQRpbMZsKa+scRNA AU5+8E305d/kQyS5dzjxlwvewg+bJKC3cOahE0JYVtVm3udvcD3mqrzy9l3Sv2jCko gLhdQGpBTMWj9YMVRgo6QILBJIO7XtxQ8aVoTtZE= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F312E918-886B-4721-BE93-860B864D08E6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 10:04:49 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Keith Moore References: X-MailScanner-ID: 0F9816003D5.A511D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 07:05:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F312E918-886B-4721-BE93-860B864D08E6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 2021-9-27, at 9:56, Lars Eggert wrote: > BCP45 chose to do both, i.e., describe which topics are appropriate = and give examples of which are considered inappropriate. BCP45 retains = that structure. ^^^ bis Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_F312E918-886B-4721-BE93-860B864D08E6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFRbREACgkQVLXDCb9w wVd0uRAAkLRX5ozFIBx4igUw+IsO+ppI+0be0eQkBrPy0fMeQMaioauxKTPQbAyL hTi+xrIBo1f10hoxL1107wL8d/8x/Cu3g4YdWNn8bl38l+u7eZ6AMBtpLctaZ0q1 yLrH3uqJzZBQ22M9FtQBRXH6nhuJYD959xQgACmR0uU5R+bqUxUP7Gv2WnTjctDE fZlics1jAaN7nCe3SHEnNHyYlErOF/52LrYKnm0CDea8lnftvNkRpUhk/t2SVyFK zEBHn0AIKdrCgcS85Sx4uiR4iXQyqSxwceHINWqX+NWR+cFJaCckkdRxxRNSb7gY fCAFHTSQO7f8f/BW7IhaEWOPUFrkFd2SKGBvKOiLcJdBNZxxoJ1Pwvv/uovo+B47 1g+DzKluRI+2Kze29WA/JrcdfopXTtwHPhwI2RFCFt/iKRsltr0yS60BbRTZt4LF ovCP8sGsToZeFE0uRf9Lsq7FFcB0DXVvooc62qvkNBlq3NeYNRgKcX1m2vwo5I5L tlh6XQMc0M0BYhe9Mrl3Gx0sonhEVYHXXryd7NUBC/X1NHSq1yg5LKdyle1w4/lG xge288sh5nCgmBNVm1LTIqA+WgDn/c/68EFpXHsUg2RtaaRyZ2orc3DBEowyrFLc wSn1t53zzRXbew/fV5Q4lWA0lYG7iSq1JfxZcA1WMGyCBGp8SGM= =z6Oa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F312E918-886B-4721-BE93-860B864D08E6-- From nobody Mon Sep 27 11:18:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7DE3A1132 for ; 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Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:17:56 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <5324a14c-d1c2-34fa-c724-cfa8551c7845@network-heretics.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:17:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 18:18:05 -0000 On 9/26/21 8:04 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Mon, Sep 27, 2021, at 04:29, Keith Moore wrote: >> Asking for a draft, or at least a concrete set of proposed changes to >> the current document, seems reasonable.  What does not seem reasonable >> is to publish the current draft before these identified problems are >> dealt with. > This is a process document. It describes how things work. Whether you like current practices, there is still value in having processes documented. I'm supportive of publishing this documentation of current practices. But it's more than a document of current practices, it's being proposed as a statement of "best" current practice.   I don't think the current practice (over the past few years) is anything like "best", and I think it's done considerable harm to IETF's openness and ability to build consensus. Keith From nobody Mon Sep 27 12:32:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6783A163D for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j_gEa9vJUbzn for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E5D83A163F for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 12:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB5B3201061 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:32:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=QNzlHaRr9uxCMTR+d+AaTEr74FFD8XNjxI0bZkdsC 7A=; b=VSETkZ34ztM61wBw8sUPrzzIfN0T80CbX3Wb3dNTbLcOJWKoJfXN1GOGj KF3tnE/bkPOZteGeYQVDbiYfqRdTPxT+J9GNtUT1XsfW2C0g/DY3WvwKLDXzeAh5 tGyVk4QQgldHrlpRLUGib0E6SOjKT8OM3Iq+Pq/C+LklpgDXkWrUbR1tEyRpWYL5 QHs+/LyZCWpRu0+bKa4ax5apX/fpuM80OnRLNtl1rNIS+m8lKtgA9KbqO3Bk6dEx n5Pl9J/V+K3QG2JNJNsdSMTCbqpbEJ3NI3FdxMAsR0nXxBLjIKKQMKg9lIBh2nGd 5N1w+Q6f2EdkoHXUrGdIQcZEUQ00A== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudejkedgudefiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesth ekredttdefheenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvght fihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheduhfelud egueetveevhfeujeejfefffeettedtvdelfefgkeeikeehjeffvdffnecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifoh hrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:32:10 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:32:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 19:32:22 -0000 On 9/27/21 2:56 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-9-25, at 4:47, Keith Moore wrote: >> 1. From experience with several "moderation" events over the past few years, I believe the power to appoint SAAs (and by inference, to direct the SAAs) has been misused by IETF Chairs in the past on multiple occasions, such as to suppress useful input that the Chair at the time did not like. > under BCP45, the IETF Chair can directly restrict posting privileges of individuals or on a thread, without involving the SAA team or relying on their ability to appoint SAAs. You will find that BCP45bis removes this ability, because practice for a number of yers has been to let the SAAs operate independently. I think I see your point, but I'm not entirely sure that the current draft is an improvement even in that aspect.   If the IETF Chair directly restricts someone's posting privileges, at least the Chair is visibly taking responsibility for that action.   If the Chair instead directs the SAAs to restrict someone else's posting privileges, it can hide the Chair's action. I'm not aware of any case in the past in which this has actually occurred, but the lack of a requirement for transparency is somewhat troubling regardless of the mechanism. >> I therefore believe that the IETF Chair should no longer be appointing or directing the SAA of the IETF list. I believe that the SAAs should act as independent, generally neutral moderators whose decisions can be overridden by IAB, and that the SAAs should instead be appointed by the nomcom or perhaps the IAB Chair. > As has been suggested on this thread, if there is a desire for a more fundamentally respecification of how list moderation on the discussion list operates, this would be better handled as a separate work item. I haven't seen a reason given for making it a separate work item, so I can only guess as to why you make that assertion.   I can guess, for example, that you'd rather not have IETF rathole on a discussion of exactly what "professional" means.   I could understand such a reluctance, but to me it seems clear that the ambiguity has caused problems in the past, and allowed people's input to be suppressed for dubious reasons. The problem I have with making it a separate work item is that doing that can be an effective way of making sure that such a discussion never happens. At any rate I don't think the current proposal qualifies as a "best current practice". IETF was a very different organization when RFC3005 was written. My recollection is that dealing with input from disagreeing, sometimes strident, and/or eccentric individuals, though it was sometimes annoying to some, was accepted at that time as a necessary condition of the openness required for consensus building in IETF.    As such, RFC3005 seems to have been written with the expectation of general comity among most IETF participants, as well as a common sense of purpose which sadly no longer seems to exist. These days, it seems that suppression of inconvenient input is now much more in fashion, and is even justified as enforcing "professionalism".    So I think BCP45 needs to be updated to fit the current times. Keith From nobody Mon Sep 27 23:55:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFEF3A208D for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GAFxpcl5Ftg9 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDEAB3A206B for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:25d9:bb26:1bfe:2ffc]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D8D686003D5; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 09:54:08 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1632812048; bh=lQ+O9kJxG93hpBa1XtzavZmeCd8+YbOCKBQzN4l9dls=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=u9V0dFeuCD+DecxNZF5cEBg+47XlWOtqFk/5kHdnTAAtHOgpNNN1UZ2/0ITSoXqeS 78KqX+6QdLty+dxkq3NdXnYVESw4wTqZMW2vkUNyI1rEcT5nWh2ZhxzEuaxWcyW821 nEuX6/zwgROkfYD/6Hks+vTbJJR7JdnBmyP5KbjA= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1A4DF75E-9B21-429F-83E9-988CBA0E2B93"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 09:54:08 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Keith Moore References: X-MailScanner-ID: D8D686003D5.A1712 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 06:54:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1A4DF75E-9B21-429F-83E9-988CBA0E2B93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-27, at 22:32, Keith Moore wrote: >> As has been suggested on this thread, if there is a desire for a more = fundamentally respecification of how list moderation on the discussion = list operates, this would be better handled as a separate work item. >=20 > I haven't seen a reason given for making it a separate work item, so I = can only guess as to why you make that assertion. let me try and explain. The only reason I even started a BCP45bis (thinking it would be a quick, = non-controversial update...) was that a previous IESG promised to the = community this would be done in case the "last-call experiment" was = declared a success, to "to formally move the location for last-call = discussions". [1] Besides minor corrections and wording suggestions from various IETF = participants, the only other changes of note are: * to remove the wording about IETF Exec Dir's ability to impose posting = restrictions (which RFC8717 already made effective) * to do the same for the IETF Chair (per current practice) * to add some material from the SAA team on their self-organization = principles * to clarify that the normal appeals process applies to SAA decisions None of these changes - in my opinion - go beyond what BCP45 already = defined, and I'd therefore characterize them as minor updates. However, more fundamental changes to this process, suggested by you and = others, such as appointing SAAs through the NomCom, making the SAA team = the IAB's responsibility, closing the discussion list entirely, etc. = would go beyond the scope of BCP45 and the minor update that BCP45bis is = intending to be. I would therefore prefer to see them made independently = from this minor revision. I also think someone other than the IETF Chair should be the editor for = such a larger revision of the process. > These days, it seems that suppression of inconvenient input is now = much more in fashion, and is even justified as enforcing = "professionalism". So I think BCP45 needs to be updated to fit the = current times. I still disagree with your characterization that any "suppression of = inconvenient input" is happening or has happened, and will point out = again that BCP45 was already concerned with maintaining a level of = professionalism on the discussion list; this is not terminology I added = or even changed in BCP45bis. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_1A4DF75E-9B21-429F-83E9-988CBA0E2B93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFSvBAACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdOZxAAw/q7uGgQWtdTmQbJEudadbKZq8A38kdWVwsU3W4LM0+Kw8RnvUPmqZ1o sshguhGVsLg96bUQdAhGKipMLWTfQY4HZfkR9w41JN22gKDoQLpOklYzjPeG1sx/ xqOF3utVnrGD8U7KcgErVu81ApCRdfywGMd1zANLpwL1C2kRsJVz3K82O8fy/mlF UY9tRo7DNZwmDzhcTxntt5V4D/MIpl4T9EeT62iZbA7wbq2UE2T8mEho97faaas+ UVB72me/4hp6dj4y/aS5H4gu1cRYNOtxGKnFWXeeNHnkb1cAwO9dgVm5ZOfVHSsJ 41ZP5MwMm5/5ZkkQA9iIiLNfeVCTSVn4fzFek2BmddpWRwLfew/tWsgfu7ebUvSv 54KCEh15ozJ2BcIb7bPs/eNqUR7g7NYuFtJNsFfT9TqMoeVY5ncqTR+ILbXxd/jy UgmvA5GuE8gHZkQBYgjasZ3EA93A+xa/x0//XBMmLNRmRrmEeKdiSzF1ztrdtaWi Q/pbIC7jKDn1Ua3bsPDid7nrQq0Ox3Ka4nZHUiivzemyyI7eMox9YkuM1BYH4FnH 1PFVVzBoK7YmH8jNyGaetAF82EMtwnBq8J9CR2Y/9oRAQ20dzfr3+BZ65s8ulEYO aP2wzkiIinby9jPF2MibSq3s6ABGKxabaTZQut7MXcYBtXhC7wY= =Sas8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1A4DF75E-9B21-429F-83E9-988CBA0E2B93-- From nobody Mon Sep 27 23:57:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA383A2086 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:57:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cnh4DRwXVnNt for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.goatley.com (www.goatley.com [198.137.202.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53C883A2083 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trixy.bergandi.net (cpe-76-176-14-122.san.res.rr.com [76.176.14.122]) by wwwlocal.goatley.com (PMDF V6.8 #2433) with ESMTP id <0R04001DCTZN7G@wwwlocal.goatley.com> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 01:57:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blockhead.local ([104.36.248.13]) by trixy.bergandi.net (PMDF V6.7-x01 #2433) with ESMTPSA id <0R0400GCVTP198@trixy.bergandi.net> for gendispatch@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ext-104-36-248-13.arubanetworks.com ([104.36.248.13] EXTERNAL) (EHLO blockhead.local) with TLS/SSL by trixy.bergandi.net ([10.0.42.18]) (PreciseMail V3.3); Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:51:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 23:57:20 -0700 From: Dan Harkins In-reply-to: <5324a14c-d1c2-34fa-c724-cfa8551c7845@network-heretics.com> To: gendispatch@ietf.org Message-id: <6e965168-e9e2-1a76-6ea1-0847f15a39ea@lounge.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 X-PMAS-SPF: SPF check skipped for authenticated session (recv=trixy.bergandi.net, send-ip=104.36.248.13) X-PMAS-External-Auth: ext-104-36-248-13.arubanetworks.com [104.36.248.13] (EHLO blockhead.local) References: <75349e81-e85f-b92d-92da-98497ea2b2f0@network-heretics.com> <5324a14c-d1c2-34fa-c724-cfa8551c7845@network-heretics.com> X-PMAS-Software: PreciseMail V3.3 [210922] (trixy.bergandi.net) X-PMAS-Allowed: system rule (rule allow header:X-PMAS-External noexists) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 06:57:28 -0000   +1 On 9/27/21 11:17 AM, Keith Moore wrote: > > On 9/26/21 8:04 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021, at 04:29, Keith Moore wrote: >>> Asking for a draft, or at least a concrete set of proposed changes to >>> the current document, seems reasonable.  What does not seem reasonable >>> is to publish the current draft before these identified problems are >>> dealt with. >> This is a process document.  It describes how things work. Whether >> you like current practices, there is still value in having processes >> documented.  I'm supportive of publishing this documentation of >> current practices. > > But it's more than a document of current practices, it's being > proposed as a statement of "best" current practice.   I don't think > the current practice (over the past few years) is anything like > "best", and I think it's done considerable harm to IETF's openness and > ability to build consensus. > > Keith > > -- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius From nobody Tue Sep 28 08:06:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F743A3104 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XP8wXaqtYvv8 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1164B3A310C for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 08:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F21343201C6E; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:06:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=5LZXpGa323xLZFlO179xQ07FGLAViQ2qX/zlyDZK3 AE=; b=Bl/KLST3fu4MRuYUIX4DmEwOJBgTuv3/ZjjjFqG3eovcKXmTcpJzvMX87 ccy3Tyzg2NHVFzv2cse5lwSD4kTo4HyZHRm1kLikIhdO402HS5SyofzN8tAbpBZR nx86SyvoZyMEhHqb+QPcAeCRT0bAN1hk453SkbLtgGHugglJ6Og4e0XNZ34MAtSf my7447v9hgIp+zxRWPD1pUIthu9MbphuNsqOuw90LQBGVeUOORras07ynu6eQNkp 1Cf8hb+dc3pCk/JuEvI7KGNmpPW7HDoUVHFh0NBLEKt3V/b3EL3hwqlCriY9LKz+ gFpeZCZRmfzBfBzzya8r3qpL7+Dow== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudektddgkeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekredttdefheenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihht hhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh eqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepheduhfeludegueetveevhfeujeejfefffeettedtvdel fefgkeeikeehjeffvdffnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrg hilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:06:35 -0400 (EDT) To: Lars Eggert Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:06:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 15:06:45 -0000 Hi Lars, First, thanks for the explanation, as it helps to make the differences in our positions clear. Of course it's not unusual that (for better or worse) when revising a document we find a conflict between a desire to make only simple revisions, versus needing to update every part of the document, not only to fix bugs but to update references, use more modern notation (e.g. ABNF), impose new minimum requirements (e.g. TLS version), etc., because many things assumed by the previous version of the document have changed in the time since that version was published. > However, more fundamental changes to this process, suggested by you and others, such as appointing SAAs through the NomCom, making the SAA team the IAB's responsibility, closing the discussion list entirely, etc. would go beyond the scope of BCP45 and the minor update that BCP45bis is intending to be. I would therefore prefer to see them made independently from this minor revision. I disagree that these would be expanding the scope of BCP45, as they deal with the same topics as BCP45 does.   (FWIW I'm not in favor of closing the ietf@ list, though I've seen that suggestion elsewhere.) > I also think someone other than the IETF Chair should be the editor for such a larger revision of the process. I concur. >> These days, it seems that suppression of inconvenient input is now much more in fashion, and is even justified as enforcing "professionalism". So I think BCP45 needs to be updated to fit the current times. > I still disagree with your characterization that any "suppression of inconvenient input" is happening or has happened, and will point out again that BCP45 was already concerned with maintaining a level of professionalism on the discussion list; this is not terminology I added or even changed in BCP45bis. We do indeed disagree on that, as I have personally experienced efforts to malign me and to discourage my input, and I've seen others treated similarly.   And those experiences have convinced me without a doubt that BCP45 has been used to justify efforts to control the IETF conversation that were inconsistent with its original intent, and that the language in BCP45 therefore needs to be updated. Keith From nobody Wed Sep 29 03:56:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353583A0D23; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZBcn4gqa5lJD; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23A033A0D20; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id 134so2484024iou.12; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3JOgQJ+0LOIIlnFkKo487zZefWKXDf5naqVppRimeR4=; b=lAHGzMiYfB4goY89jA4yaD1LAEFYZ+NdDjD6s/d3uT9vxEGJ+aPWXWSqkM0PBQ2fvM YRHjaYvw6qdHk7rBNPfdPBdPPb6rBlt5RcdaEQarO9ieQ/UjeCr81GBD4H8uhNU6gCE2 cEPmX1Ycl0uVsfJyWRFiP198masrYqEb98JY0OSJY0WLujQ+yOuenDXZ1K2+Ub/xfoA7 Y1ztoyeRaen1hYemnwGO9U9XUNkk6ccmiOjOZuBM9y/EaKH8W3AF6NnnMFWSEBJ2hvNL eowwdl5Utl8+5N6BLZlZUEtAhgL6rXM+5PAq0k6BrDFCdMXnyM1xmxWPyk55XqUiLHCJ usGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3JOgQJ+0LOIIlnFkKo487zZefWKXDf5naqVppRimeR4=; b=Au01zhyPDcBa31oAMVdIXEZXOF20+ZoKomJl6CLjvAekKXEs0YVr7NjzLVtzTYFfpH 8J5GyvEY+1/kiyx1/w/tFMgS1CKoTZvhC0VgzYXtOnZqOWH0pL/LM130k0NR7pwI+DJj +kZWYPMG9BwhB9ubbVTzHvj/8G4a1nXsmiO7IeL+xx/Da4B2bHpODucQ+LrWMrpGJqbW XnMWGTzxjwewfFvPCNmYHn2VPWF3FCNmdICGGNUQbBq3O6HOajo2FRf3UH/xbJ/PA4JK UxAAvO3FgA4IY2W4W4ZIUURf+vqibodekw4oBYhJh1FLKOFJiuQ8WhEztFuRHopAFJS9 +a6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Xjuby/5oHwsBFLZSd2U9CB7vzottaJvo39zDuwazAejFRsOd6 6ojneE+u31BBZPqsjwfUg1ZSJpx08hfhX7/9834MMa/AIQk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBKQabKNIZQBJ6cveRD/fhPcw0HXbQRIGV864flHbGyh9EVgvRfF7kqBJACf5vMCKHSP6ISpqoeH2NYaxBaPw= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr8865552jam.7.1632913004838; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:26:08 +0530 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a457405cd202f0f" Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 10:56:52 -0000 --0000000000009a457405cd202f0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? Thanks! Dhruv [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 --0000000000009a457405cd202f0f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --0000000000009a457405cd202f0f-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 03:57:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0186B3A0D41; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353583A0D23; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZBcn4gqa5lJD; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23A033A0D20; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id 134so2484024iou.12; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3JOgQJ+0LOIIlnFkKo487zZefWKXDf5naqVppRimeR4=; b=lAHGzMiYfB4goY89jA4yaD1LAEFYZ+NdDjD6s/d3uT9vxEGJ+aPWXWSqkM0PBQ2fvM YRHjaYvw6qdHk7rBNPfdPBdPPb6rBlt5RcdaEQarO9ieQ/UjeCr81GBD4H8uhNU6gCE2 cEPmX1Ycl0uVsfJyWRFiP198masrYqEb98JY0OSJY0WLujQ+yOuenDXZ1K2+Ub/xfoA7 Y1ztoyeRaen1hYemnwGO9U9XUNkk6ccmiOjOZuBM9y/EaKH8W3AF6NnnMFWSEBJ2hvNL eowwdl5Utl8+5N6BLZlZUEtAhgL6rXM+5PAq0k6BrDFCdMXnyM1xmxWPyk55XqUiLHCJ usGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3JOgQJ+0LOIIlnFkKo487zZefWKXDf5naqVppRimeR4=; b=Au01zhyPDcBa31oAMVdIXEZXOF20+ZoKomJl6CLjvAekKXEs0YVr7NjzLVtzTYFfpH 8J5GyvEY+1/kiyx1/w/tFMgS1CKoTZvhC0VgzYXtOnZqOWH0pL/LM130k0NR7pwI+DJj +kZWYPMG9BwhB9ubbVTzHvj/8G4a1nXsmiO7IeL+xx/Da4B2bHpODucQ+LrWMrpGJqbW XnMWGTzxjwewfFvPCNmYHn2VPWF3FCNmdICGGNUQbBq3O6HOajo2FRf3UH/xbJ/PA4JK UxAAvO3FgA4IY2W4W4ZIUURf+vqibodekw4oBYhJh1FLKOFJiuQ8WhEztFuRHopAFJS9 +a6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Xjuby/5oHwsBFLZSd2U9CB7vzottaJvo39zDuwazAejFRsOd6 6ojneE+u31BBZPqsjwfUg1ZSJpx08hfhX7/9834MMa/AIQk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyBKQabKNIZQBJ6cveRD/fhPcw0HXbQRIGV864flHbGyh9EVgvRfF7kqBJACf5vMCKHSP6ISpqoeH2NYaxBaPw= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b704:: with SMTP id g4mr8865552jam.7.1632913004838; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:26:08 +0530 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a457405cd202f0f" Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, rwilton@cisco.com Resent-Message-Id: <20210929105652.0186B3A0D41@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 03:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 10:56:52 -0000 --0000000000009a457405cd202f0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? Thanks! Dhruv [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 --0000000000009a457405cd202f0f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
= Hi,

Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/= events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society o= r IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Int= ernet Society; as it is dif= ficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts?
<= br>Thanks!
Dhruv =C2=A0 =C2=A0

[1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/

PR= -> https://gi= thub.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9
--0000000000009a457405cd202f0f-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 09:16:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D963A00C1; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HP3g2JEbnarZ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DF5E3A00C4; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id n64so3567632oih.2; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=k9D61qsGdVlPNShHLaFWGFfCpGuMaCkDfny7hh647uw=; b=KSG26HbAduHcapDx175s/yi7nMD1um7KqsuHEjNJnzuuH+PUMSUIThqASbUrQZ7MtP RzZPKcaEyj2a+bG85mj9eZ+EM76VCd+8ZxLieM1MlJQu/HuZZq0FBop58E1OMHNxp129 D6OQu9KU4TU8RmfDbb/Iom4Vwu+/qM6PS9HsSVhhdxTpx/0/4wzYjRa6Oj26AvkCpWGx ClfsFv/lwog4z3N7SpqKm4uSMf5qGHfycA9zthjh87a4eRuuomAG5/d8gJYyMDw2o7Cj Wyr5f/Uo9euqHh8DRwadfnXg2ear3DFw5SV4xN19SNXnxd3p7/C1HmzGzgGs7Q7n8m3p br0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=k9D61qsGdVlPNShHLaFWGFfCpGuMaCkDfny7hh647uw=; b=JDCDrFEBW+F7aenQG1O5Hnu2EGal7TJguD6i94NOihbgYlxIKY69jwiB+VbkWF14na bONRSkNoYSKf1KjV8S51hFv9vAOMJrU3pFfJTlaWkqBjk7DMmZt+ppL1LMK4LOYlt2/P Ko7LRi0wHbIl8lgXyy+VU2ks4QvwiBLvD+BPuy8phlBkCG+CKZhww/t12M2i17olniqP uiMz5iYw4UBD9BuFdW4vOozkAdW9LSISfedRt65v5S5y6MO1fJ+TteRT/kAqySLgAxCu Je8AQWyXuwaQBpZP7YAaABDKehs4H/m0DgcIBg37Xf/WwA6jesbUX9QW3vkOafE03jRP 1Qbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531AP77EJ0YUFwTJnWYS7BbpXkQWn6sKZ+DbyUZCSESY95wizG8u fOBKUyQTAr1NUovAxg/BMTna5DdotaA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwL2KJ8wpMoeN+sRF/fgg54+eJZngMg+a2ewxZmDORk7ReVjJ+hzf/F6NitKEyt4epAN3HcVg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:ea83:: with SMTP id i125mr3747241oih.26.1632932164359; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:506e:e459:e8ce:d157? ([2601:647:5a00:659:506e:e459:e8ce:d157]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w14sm39003oth.5.2021.09.29.09.16.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:01 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , gendispatch@ietf.org, draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org To: Dhruv Dhody References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:16:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dhruv, > On Sep 29, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? I think ISOC should not be removed. Sponsored should be easy to tell, ISOC should be on the events web site = and/or on the link you supplied. For endorses, I agree that is harder to tell. Of course, how hard would = it be for the SAA team to ask ISOC about a specific event. None of this would be very difficult. Bob >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv >=20 > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >=20 > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFUkUEACgkQrut0EXfn u6gxLgf9GxLc3GF5Y3nwV3nmphgejFgHV8IpNBL4AIDe13CxzdCgdILABx53mjGl Q4RJBskVf20gYJ0hp3VsbyXHqobGTvNEgK8NWDdBUPLfduViAaEbDmTOdN94wmOd Kwucy20eKrwYYzGANUvTaQ0RqN42AtwGlylCuhRsq5wjlx1hSfGfyAV6Xe3XIU2v rpbBKWCFNOC8ojCZG01pFp5NMF/tdgM60LMs4CC8uW8T5n/SqRlpH9JBfNRtFgdv Vg39pDF7yUX8gXLYaR5iQArpqPDlF5Opfq7oBHASZnXkgrlQXV+6hJZnIVDpCUCA VgU4lJSeiXrO8v0aaWZLPGZsITsc3Q== =6OqK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 09:16:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id A0DB93A00C8; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D963A00C1; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HP3g2JEbnarZ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DF5E3A00C4; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id n64so3567632oih.2; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=k9D61qsGdVlPNShHLaFWGFfCpGuMaCkDfny7hh647uw=; b=KSG26HbAduHcapDx175s/yi7nMD1um7KqsuHEjNJnzuuH+PUMSUIThqASbUrQZ7MtP RzZPKcaEyj2a+bG85mj9eZ+EM76VCd+8ZxLieM1MlJQu/HuZZq0FBop58E1OMHNxp129 D6OQu9KU4TU8RmfDbb/Iom4Vwu+/qM6PS9HsSVhhdxTpx/0/4wzYjRa6Oj26AvkCpWGx ClfsFv/lwog4z3N7SpqKm4uSMf5qGHfycA9zthjh87a4eRuuomAG5/d8gJYyMDw2o7Cj Wyr5f/Uo9euqHh8DRwadfnXg2ear3DFw5SV4xN19SNXnxd3p7/C1HmzGzgGs7Q7n8m3p br0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=k9D61qsGdVlPNShHLaFWGFfCpGuMaCkDfny7hh647uw=; b=JDCDrFEBW+F7aenQG1O5Hnu2EGal7TJguD6i94NOihbgYlxIKY69jwiB+VbkWF14na bONRSkNoYSKf1KjV8S51hFv9vAOMJrU3pFfJTlaWkqBjk7DMmZt+ppL1LMK4LOYlt2/P Ko7LRi0wHbIl8lgXyy+VU2ks4QvwiBLvD+BPuy8phlBkCG+CKZhww/t12M2i17olniqP uiMz5iYw4UBD9BuFdW4vOozkAdW9LSISfedRt65v5S5y6MO1fJ+TteRT/kAqySLgAxCu Je8AQWyXuwaQBpZP7YAaABDKehs4H/m0DgcIBg37Xf/WwA6jesbUX9QW3vkOafE03jRP 1Qbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531AP77EJ0YUFwTJnWYS7BbpXkQWn6sKZ+DbyUZCSESY95wizG8u fOBKUyQTAr1NUovAxg/BMTna5DdotaA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwL2KJ8wpMoeN+sRF/fgg54+eJZngMg+a2ewxZmDORk7ReVjJ+hzf/F6NitKEyt4epAN3HcVg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:ea83:: with SMTP id i125mr3747241oih.26.1632932164359; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:506e:e459:e8ce:d157? ([2601:647:5a00:659:506e:e459:e8ce:d157]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w14sm39003oth.5.2021.09.29.09.16.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:01 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , gendispatch@ietf.org, draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org To: Dhruv Dhody References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, lars@eggert.org, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210929161610.A0DB93A00C8@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 09:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:16:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dhruv, > On Sep 29, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? I think ISOC should not be removed. Sponsored should be easy to tell, ISOC should be on the events web site = and/or on the link you supplied. For endorses, I agree that is harder to tell. Of course, how hard would = it be for the SAA team to ask ISOC about a specific event. None of this would be very difficult. Bob >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv >=20 > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >=20 > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFUkUEACgkQrut0EXfn u6gxLgf9GxLc3GF5Y3nwV3nmphgejFgHV8IpNBL4AIDe13CxzdCgdILABx53mjGl Q4RJBskVf20gYJ0hp3VsbyXHqobGTvNEgK8NWDdBUPLfduViAaEbDmTOdN94wmOd Kwucy20eKrwYYzGANUvTaQ0RqN42AtwGlylCuhRsq5wjlx1hSfGfyAV6Xe3XIU2v rpbBKWCFNOC8ojCZG01pFp5NMF/tdgM60LMs4CC8uW8T5n/SqRlpH9JBfNRtFgdv Vg39pDF7yUX8gXLYaR5iQArpqPDlF5Opfq7oBHASZnXkgrlQXV+6hJZnIVDpCUCA VgU4lJSeiXrO8v0aaWZLPGZsITsc3Q== =6OqK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A658F01B-69BE-4038-A1DC-72E651317EE6-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 14:26:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7934B3A0858; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eISgJZsG8vZE; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 570C13A082A; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id r7so2629035pjo.3; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1EoENyoCvsjbdMVm4uwxYVBxUQIYsQjuA4jPmyflL5E=; b=PVFekNWtL/tErdQupijC1wkrL87LfYFqDFskw+3rLpFhUn+tjjZJ6kfLSfLM+02g0r U3BNDDsDA5oquLShoTAi1Y9kxbF+KCL1f1BLincagEX5Xcu2EljT1aC1bf64G6ZGhBRn WGLgsT0d8LLKA1h5ov+EdkvL6Mp5itcUx4QYfaqy1VoYkFasWzR8CnIB416Q1JKmPB25 +2a0ydazO3cHnjplm4a0d3RkOZuX8DojKqD8usHS3Zsa6z0bukuv4M9RhBL1VT2lbfJC 4QXLyTxolS0w1bMjrNQ8RgIzG/PGqykbG3OrriEpx55e7pUUHeslmEiIQXRnU+iUdEGz 8oCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1EoENyoCvsjbdMVm4uwxYVBxUQIYsQjuA4jPmyflL5E=; b=Py5E2kj1UjgZpfW3+AAExUNApW4XXVpISOwwVGSLqDK5iK+lR3T6vlRs70WSTAANs+ ujl7+paFNmk1lVro8qQdzVs1LbrrzhJ6HVoLj72DCi+F/H/jOJO7n2wxGPqicb8IS62Q OXzXsrVZFG2Mkme+UaN+yZQKkVFNvFwyIe2DiK/o9iRHnoJtUCmkHrcXQpYpmxm/ly5y cZ+iIOpZ4NKm49o/QjwAk85dwRsfXkkyq8Y7wzKfnWsfCbUhzO+E3rmv8tWMnNcW7avw GAO5UMJbKEnh5VV/qNkqsYZhKGI5yk3wXmlKoM9fWhJw1adlxuuHE0+yZRQphf1JDUkV rehA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53338mtFlwvm9mn1PW2+k5KcjJCxDB7YeVxoLeZ6iydlnT9rvEOM ZffDQO4T56HfCRblnkpEfUaMhrzXuwHeSw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyo1dmdbSMlZjvIgMNFDUkgFpQHe2h4QSGkUxDM5UiynowPWPr7+22BL5K2qIpd3RX5WnLWYw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4e43:: with SMTP id t3mr8842392pjl.163.1632950807329; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r13sm514030pgl.90.2021.09.29.14.26.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Bob Hinden , Dhruv Dhody Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7256fe72-c76f-0d73-6a61-78ed242050d2@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:26:41 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:54 -0000 On 30-Sep-21 05:16, Bob Hinden wrote: > Dhruv, > >> On Sep 29, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? > > I think ISOC should not be removed. I agree. Where does most of our money come from? Who else specifically works to ensure that the Internet is for everyone? It would be inappropriate to change this policy (and given that BCP45 is in force, it would be against our own rules). > Sponsored should be easy to tell, ISOC should be on the events web site and/or on the link you supplied. Or the email address of the sender will validate it. > For endorses, I agree that is harder to tell. Of course, how hard would it be for the SAA team to ask ISOC about a specific event. And how often per year does this even arise? I agree that it would be unfortunate to allow a message that contains a spurious claim of ISOC sponsorship, but this is not about censorship, it's about managing unruly discussions, so we should probably not make a big deal of this. Brian > > None of this would be very difficult. > > Bob > >> >> Thanks! >> Dhruv >> >> [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >> >> PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > From nobody Wed Sep 29 14:27:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 0614E3A085D; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7934B3A0858; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eISgJZsG8vZE; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com (mail-pj1-x1033.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 570C13A082A; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id r7so2629035pjo.3; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1EoENyoCvsjbdMVm4uwxYVBxUQIYsQjuA4jPmyflL5E=; b=PVFekNWtL/tErdQupijC1wkrL87LfYFqDFskw+3rLpFhUn+tjjZJ6kfLSfLM+02g0r U3BNDDsDA5oquLShoTAi1Y9kxbF+KCL1f1BLincagEX5Xcu2EljT1aC1bf64G6ZGhBRn WGLgsT0d8LLKA1h5ov+EdkvL6Mp5itcUx4QYfaqy1VoYkFasWzR8CnIB416Q1JKmPB25 +2a0ydazO3cHnjplm4a0d3RkOZuX8DojKqD8usHS3Zsa6z0bukuv4M9RhBL1VT2lbfJC 4QXLyTxolS0w1bMjrNQ8RgIzG/PGqykbG3OrriEpx55e7pUUHeslmEiIQXRnU+iUdEGz 8oCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1EoENyoCvsjbdMVm4uwxYVBxUQIYsQjuA4jPmyflL5E=; b=Py5E2kj1UjgZpfW3+AAExUNApW4XXVpISOwwVGSLqDK5iK+lR3T6vlRs70WSTAANs+ ujl7+paFNmk1lVro8qQdzVs1LbrrzhJ6HVoLj72DCi+F/H/jOJO7n2wxGPqicb8IS62Q OXzXsrVZFG2Mkme+UaN+yZQKkVFNvFwyIe2DiK/o9iRHnoJtUCmkHrcXQpYpmxm/ly5y cZ+iIOpZ4NKm49o/QjwAk85dwRsfXkkyq8Y7wzKfnWsfCbUhzO+E3rmv8tWMnNcW7avw GAO5UMJbKEnh5VV/qNkqsYZhKGI5yk3wXmlKoM9fWhJw1adlxuuHE0+yZRQphf1JDUkV rehA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53338mtFlwvm9mn1PW2+k5KcjJCxDB7YeVxoLeZ6iydlnT9rvEOM ZffDQO4T56HfCRblnkpEfUaMhrzXuwHeSw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyo1dmdbSMlZjvIgMNFDUkgFpQHe2h4QSGkUxDM5UiynowPWPr7+22BL5K2qIpd3RX5WnLWYw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4e43:: with SMTP id t3mr8842392pjl.163.1632950807329; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r13sm514030pgl.90.2021.09.29.14.26.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Bob Hinden , Dhruv Dhody Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org, draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7256fe72-c76f-0d73-6a61-78ed242050d2@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:26:41 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210929212654.0614E3A085D@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:54 -0000 On 30-Sep-21 05:16, Bob Hinden wrote: > Dhruv, > >> On Sep 29, 2021, at 3:56 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? > > I think ISOC should not be removed. I agree. Where does most of our money come from? Who else specifically works to ensure that the Internet is for everyone? It would be inappropriate to change this policy (and given that BCP45 is in force, it would be against our own rules). > Sponsored should be easy to tell, ISOC should be on the events web site and/or on the link you supplied. Or the email address of the sender will validate it. > For endorses, I agree that is harder to tell. Of course, how hard would it be for the SAA team to ask ISOC about a specific event. And how often per year does this even arise? I agree that it would be unfortunate to allow a message that contains a spurious claim of ISOC sponsorship, but this is not about censorship, it's about managing unruly discussions, so we should probably not make a big deal of this. Brian > > None of this would be very difficult. > > Bob > >> >> Thanks! >> Dhruv >> >> [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >> >> PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > From nobody Wed Sep 29 14:52:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F223A087D for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1vO_UIJ3mi2x for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x532.google.com (mail-pg1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C5503A0877 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id g184so4109247pgc.6 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:52:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FaOwAmR5TCm9Y4O95PeC5wLi2XhUhQpllgHpzw8I8mw=; b=NK2c5dAO7SYJ8Inv6QkS1EoElQJZWMWBPlPL8EY66PIklh/hyLFlVzAAQkcDD65+iD JmvECZTIq6i1iedLhmLH2e79p9wKM5zVAsGHpX1nvNzPXbHPB8Th7ylSl+kySq7/Ch95 QhP2mYaiufBiGsO93ueaftS1TIxemU7rwzAQHTQnyySSAf1BdTT8bs0+cdAc4gRGAlcL wptSPiLwEpR4GZr1z8GShmwMNSwtujTuifi/Fwkic+f1xgLtKDWlifSzhcUvw+KhzGtO RwR4mbzsCHKW8BJYsMDmQ2hEzRaHRgNJIcZpQYqz6hpJPw7I5NVtaaPq6iQkGzsaEMj6 dKgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FaOwAmR5TCm9Y4O95PeC5wLi2XhUhQpllgHpzw8I8mw=; b=5zLmOXGT1ihXVxQus7SPn8U7/Ad8T9I+LDQmCDKhMAW2fEc9xokmoBNNUEM7xFWyPG aTa/3IRtsyLOoN41Omx4h9J1LdvdV2usxXKuirNzu6z5TJKZTAUIRAIwleN91XlLJKrn RrFWMoZRKjtus78ILK/gw2ns75cuZr1ljTzQRyCUuav5bJMBfarj4MWxgfvsK/2sGGCO 5x2vVF7QwS4J6fU9Gli439+fwYXLMOdG6c/KOI2Hf0+Ov3B9gH+YgZSR4U0irYrOSgsc g9RodlgTekRg/xV9UWMXbFUIl6i2oWvyD5BqVKG6TKZbT1izP2EDPSK5WDrNS9Dm+mB1 54TQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532h5KwSrldo2aAjqRAlbmY1kDb/blnuKE2E8kD5cskPAafOAErx AMXtOJgPD2A9IhS8b9AOeQ14jqYusjG+Tw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw5ihJ6hmVDXjOgwFJ3qCccnuP5PlV1Axwsv927QvYjNaG/P9jpCpUo44vxooY2aw8/DwUGYA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7402:: with SMTP id p2mr1840732pgc.472.1632952368705; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c24sm648766pfd.120.2021.09.29.14.52.47 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:52:48 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:52:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:52:53 -0000 Hi, A couple of points on the draft: 1) The current BCP45 states "It also hosts discussions of IETF direction, policy, meetings, and procedures." That has been deleted in the draft, which leaves a gap. I think that the list of appropriate postings should include something like: * Discussions of IETF direction, policy, and the standards process in general. (and perhaps mention that drafts in this area go to GENDISPATCH.) 2) I suggest an extra sentence just after this: > These topics used to be in scope for the IETF discussion list, but have since moved to dedicated lists: > > * Last Call discussions of proposed protocol actions now take place on the IETF Last Calls mailing list [LAST-CALLS]. > > * Discussion of IETF administrative policies now take place on the discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS]. Add: However, if the discussion is broader than the specific protocol concerned, or than administration as such, it may revert to the IETF discussion list, preferably with an appropriate change of the Subject header. [For example, if the Last Call discussion identifies a completely separate technical requirement, or if the admin discussion identifies a problem with the standards process.] Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Wed Sep 29 14:59:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D84453A088A for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VjNVvk0akrNy for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D0E93A087C for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id y15so4497194ilu.12 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JJQdY9irZ1vXCreYw4aCsLVeJ5A1dPyP5VjeaaQNlpw=; b=lOC/PJHHDp73R7q0VdHTe3bJvYbm4SbhjNeSBhXBlPteFTXGGpnAch8+ezWJDGjioA hRMOobs6GYJMPgA7w5oMsRD2+a808sEYgW3+5oW4P7kGdeqExJJ5U5axye4XFratMnob iGykYYx/GRHI1daIXwgRHRfCyyNW/QM9wUxa7n2gTC1Pkf2nOyOYxc9bkIzXcJ46L1wh 7sSeCbqUnaEDbia8n+l0qI3iD1rn9FF4j8WCxlmtmiDfZ1yWzQppV+mHd3LweTSKJmIr 2vO2x2Ce92gxAkw9h8OtFYqnThJzI3fKCLVJKOx25sjNCjtjIwO24c2fUYBCN1zriFP9 SF2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JJQdY9irZ1vXCreYw4aCsLVeJ5A1dPyP5VjeaaQNlpw=; b=lsrzjn8ORD+ZCMyZjj0OH6uDYazoLjzARYQKFeuUm78TdTLMjSGaGAicd8MX93fMXP GuP8TwhdGfx7kR9XcGw+tPiVJPQypv3riygFUXXotJhFag9sH3o06FNSU7hAxiXMr4ma 0uLhvpFcqutELJHm+Uw1JRLBVJQS1PIYLZ2I8l3Lg1BMYgQrdbQ5nchbF9cEBwW6DTs0 +jR1591kFoOBuOMX09do5yCjhsMMyn+HICWVWWxRhF0MuJUT+a48h07eDUu9ymdXaUOm 7AXMMh0zsdsYwmgEThyj9Cl+w4XSy++up74f39sBYNmruw711ciyR/xGFWwO94qAM+v1 l9Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531mbnIp/EoMUo02DSA7jl+FZewlKGEHaFFcAs3M5Ors1Iw0TvDU eqpd7plY2jhx3baloYXe7DV6nzb2qWlVpYPsmSVMb6rL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5NCIoVvnR6T6Y7kBqc0YKk6VpnyHWe2ibevW738HJbxDcxSi0Dg9Mbc9jNFsWtLmcTNS59tKWQsUyV0t+oZk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:216f:: with SMTP id s15mr1587687ilv.259.1632952768215; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:59:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 14:59:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af415b05cd297162" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:59:31 -0000 --000000000000af415b05cd297162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:53 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Add: > > However, if the discussion is broader than the specific protocol > concerned, or than administration as such, it may revert to the IETF > discussion list, preferably with an appropriate change of the Subject > header. > fwiw, I don't agree with this idea at all, and in fact think it is a source of pain on the IETF discussion list. Either way, this would be a substantive change quite separate from the documentation this draft aims to provide, and more appropriate for a draft that aims to change BCP45 deliberately. thanks, Rob --000000000000af415b05cd297162 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:53 PM Brian E C= arpenter <brian.e.carpent= er@gmail.com> wrote:
Add:

However, if the discussion is broader than the specific protocol concerned,= or than administration as such, it may revert to the IETF discussion list,= preferably with an appropriate change of the Subject header.

fwiw, I don't agree with this idea at all, and i= n fact think it is a source of pain on the IETF discussion list.
=
Either way, this would be a substantive change quite separat= e from the documentation this draft aims to provide, and more appropriate f= or a draft that aims to change BCP45 deliberately.

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
--000000000000af415b05cd297162-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 15:12:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 992AB3A08C7 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:12:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9gBMBqxxl1Op for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D9EC3A08C5 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id y8so3161599pfa.7 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QI3sKW9ZjxgctqWynrB8+Yt0F6HN9Epx3yEb7un4hMk=; b=VtK50g4OYarG1FxkPNXIo6y7eZt7Zczws4ZEsXJczUsvybdriJsIk1L+0qhh7Gzk63 CCBTsUqGq7xXDpCHkXizyOVxqm5Wf8aCuTR/YezyAOQUvpxV0Fj++gSm+rQmVk8o+8EQ qQw+Y7Qt1zQ8zoXT55ZVjY85cDrIzW/BXcg9VcacTNTln4B6HLabUd5l1IQJHE18oASa 7OV8StKZdV6ZTdeF11tyuXITy5XwL1gQSab26kPOlsc0dR1uok69WJ4GR0jLZ3/aIrht D4GdUjIp4mNu0z9RsRBSytS3H1jNXklNMZPvIIxAqyUkHrgAy0AzNa91+FKZCajk7LnH dyDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QI3sKW9ZjxgctqWynrB8+Yt0F6HN9Epx3yEb7un4hMk=; b=q+7/jvYSPFpfM8jCkU1lHs4YLWBSeP5h9pu+YImvN+jQEUszAWX037sfi+BGBTodzx n29ZJmxA0DV2qEr0wLP8jyw8MYbjJrGOOTanxRHyO47AB8Ds6mqYSI0HF0wkJeQSSkIv pPavE0VM7rJCEsgFAtr2jumLD80Gkhi82DyCBwLTtdCeoZWZrZB0h6cR0QzNH3Tmh9BR uJeiY82z9pmdjy14O3g4fjlKY+8p3VqPo59G8AahNgwA23xUHJu5FaZqXIyf3g3ZypyI Vcd7AUo/01wHJdaxO6BsPZjKr8Nh8iDY4TVnWftq+jzA5VFJq8ugjVscXDzoMZCkPcuJ JmlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531YyZY275JfNE7Riymck2djvnXoFETgqaRMHxt4/ujfwyx29ck8 hfuV4pX/ebUcutls3PuMFQg5zlwhJmxLtA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxtoqsXoHJ+jlJDn09R+WRAyz4grFcvDuVnrC1g3EwjQg8Spy+Cth2iJAbzZsvoyBB5dlEpEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5902:: with SMTP id n2mr1908987pgb.305.1632953530560; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p16sm2882620pja.24.2021.09.29.15.12.08 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:12:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Rob Sayre Cc: GENDISPATCH List References: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <3cc480f7-1338-933a-cd79-e3a54f1d7b0c@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:12:05 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:12:14 -0000 On 30-Sep-21 10:59, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:53 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > Add: > > However, if the discussion is broader than the specific protocol concerned, or than administration as such, it may revert to the IETF discussion list, preferably with an appropriate change of the Subject header. > > > fwiw, I don't agree with this idea at all, and in fact think it is a source of pain on the IETF discussion list. > > Either way, this would be a substantive change quite separate from the documentation this draft aims to provide, and more appropriate for a draft that aims to change BCP45 deliberately. But the draft *does* change BCP45 deliberately - it explicitly says that some topics that used to be valid are no longer valid, and implicitly removes "direction, policy ... and [standards process] procedures". My first suggestion brings BCP45bis back closer to BCP45. I have many times seen last call discussion veer off into extraneous technical topics and admin discussion veer off into standards process topics. Where are those topics to be raised, if not on ietf@ ? Brian From nobody Wed Sep 29 15:23:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A44F3A08EC for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eLIjsMG3-tYm for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBF503A0BEF for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id b12so4564822ilf.11 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p4IFgPmGIxf8f0eWEQxnzko0KAnbmhowIoO9FRMTcpI=; b=Wv47icKHd6Z9ibi2xI+fHlelKP6mvte9GTRKS/e+abZYaKvPQ1JJ47MmOTOpLQuKJm BZmJsAQQennEEsbBcuPP0LGCj24xTyelLfBBtpiJ5+0+FMbwGkhiQK4URRRt2fOwO2Dm iFfcYmtqsD4PprTLQYIYsOXCI1qGwXXfW7wUenOkKBNZ68jxG7F6+rySdptFnEyqXhXc r7GHv5xpaxRf3EOVsIibjJRx+gr7JC7CgukwJX91D1DD0uOmgfY3WKSTMx/mdZMwRIbf 58eovQL7V/0VxeEwxoPZGM+QcAJyfghaMzdVRwLTnQ3QiSGXkdwYVyWp9nrUWEmKdsZW w5+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p4IFgPmGIxf8f0eWEQxnzko0KAnbmhowIoO9FRMTcpI=; b=RfxIVwJ6OHxldo2NHe7hQBb6V5FEcbZf6xpAoA/QpZkMk07Plecx92BxSXSEr8MHPR BJi43wpbq9B1KOc1sjpjC/9Q7qlViiHgMp1TjSI261b5a4bJCRRNA1XwX6SzvVRGDwIc Y43eWgUCc42r+o+gMas78VeUVyLrhI2c8EHWJ06ubbY51Gq6zdSYHypuu1rWeYpMO/j2 SWCYzll5EELvVvcyg8VBDAfdR2oljZTx1w6A3KU0jD+vHmZ6b4hXh8rpqieo4i1DyJwr 3/HHX4oB+jsaVXFdZCe7ZokBCN5z0Ujth70ZKXtOC1g4/dbswS1YhL+ni+W+OPO35Dcf LAaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530aw6TaIcX3vQwwLHWIOAApZOkgWLsb08o6mVcPelPCrm1RCVMw quSNUB8vPf8/a1Mv4WgiQpB39U9uwjJ9cJ5Ww8w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/zwoIZJ/pYe7+2Z8DaxDng7mwpnLcpYLafm9lwZW8z680ko9c0U3WgqiRvKPT1687waEEs7eofKXLlBJU8jc= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cb43:: with SMTP id f3mr1592866ilq.261.1632954155427; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:22:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> <3cc480f7-1338-933a-cd79-e3a54f1d7b0c@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3cc480f7-1338-933a-cd79-e3a54f1d7b0c@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 15:22:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e6d9505cd29c44a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:23:17 -0000 --0000000000005e6d9505cd29c44a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:12 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 30-Sep-21 10:59, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:53 PM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > Add: > > > > However, if the discussion is broader than the specific protocol > concerned, or than administration as such, it may revert to the IETF > discussion list, preferably with an appropriate change of the Subject > header. > > > > > > fwiw, I don't agree with this idea at all, and in fact think it is a > source of pain on the IETF discussion list. > > > > Either way, this would be a substantive change quite separate from the > documentation this draft aims to provide, and more appropriate for a draft > that aims to change BCP45 deliberately. > > But the draft *does* change BCP45 deliberately - it explicitly says that > some topics that used to be valid are no longer valid, and implicitly > removes "direction, policy ... and [standards process] procedures". My > first suggestion brings BCP45bis back closer to BCP45. > OK, I see your point here, but I think the draft accurately documents the places where contributions will be more effective. I think this is more a reflection of current practice, rather than policy setting, but reasonable people can disagree. > > I have many times seen last call discussion veer off into extraneous > technical topics and admin discussion veer off into standards process > topics. Where are those topics to be raised, if not on ietf@ ? > Currently, they can bubble up there, but I don't think it's productive at all and don't think it should be explicit in this draft. thanks, Rob --0000000000005e6d9505cd29c44a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 3:12 PM Brian= E Carpenter <brian.e.car= penter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 30-Sep-21 10:59, Rob Sayre wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:53 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co= m <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Add:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, if the discussion is broader than the spec= ific protocol concerned, or than administration as such, it may revert to t= he IETF discussion list, preferably with an appropriate change of the Subje= ct header.
>
>
> fwiw, I don't agree with this idea at all, and in fact think it is= a source of pain on the IETF discussion list.
>
> Either way, this would be a substantive change quite separate from the= documentation this draft aims to provide, and more appropriate for a draft= that aims to change BCP45 deliberately.

But the draft *does* change BCP45 deliberately - it explicitly says that so= me topics that used to be valid are no longer valid, and implicitly removes= "direction, policy ... and [standards process] procedures". My f= irst suggestion brings BCP45bis back closer to BCP45.
=
OK, I see your point here, but I think the draft accurately = documents the places where contributions will be more effective. I think th= is is more a reflection of current practice, rather than policy setting, bu= t reasonable people can disagree.
=C2=A0

I have many times seen last call discussion veer off into extraneous techni= cal topics and admin discussion veer off into standards process topics. Whe= re are those topics to be raised, if not on ietf@ ?
Currently, they can bubble up there, but I don't think it&= #39;s productive at all and don't think=C2=A0it should be explicit in t= his draft.

thanks,
Rob
--0000000000005e6d9505cd29c44a-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 17:20:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C987B3A0AD0 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b93hB10Fk_IT for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490A13A0AD4 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6123C5C00C8 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:19:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=LUoKVLpBIP2iUvzuIDDAHMdX7dNzGbtkakqSWmaMQ ZY=; b=HNMkhPPa20kdrXgTPAbgC+ACT77GUEb88//1W8XixBCnAs53Tp0V12vhH vczTXXkErDh0Hw/p2iDS+bSPhZwG3EE0wlOwT1k2LKurLNLECnrt+ZIrJNcv7Xkg x1kk8yIaDVm4OmCI10e/YaGmXtNn3wn8zF9V+ZjNbW5DmmO1tnylkKeY7tbPfs/Y cC4b2dDiDBYBD2Ylcs9mKSZRA8jgHrJqGpJ1SDXQ3z8ILxo89mnPWf0zgkkk7dcp 5oCWVlloPfAwDBfMiwP6i9QQD95Rlvr/8FXt6hBChPkyOmMXRc4xPI/OAk2lGl5P tPFAX0YVi9Qxk++hUlHN7C2YDtdBg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudekfedgfedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorh hkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:19:56 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <6dcabcca-ee3d-4450-9bc6-44f590539ffa@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:19:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 00:20:02 -0000 On 9/29/21 5:52 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > A couple of points on the draft: > > 1) The current BCP45 states "It also hosts discussions of IETF direction, policy, meetings, and procedures." That has been deleted in the draft, which leaves a gap. > > I think that the list of appropriate postings should include something like: > > * Discussions of IETF direction, policy, and the standards process in general. > > (and perhaps mention that drafts in this area go to GENDISPATCH.) As currently constituted GENDISPATCH mostly serves to hide discussions that are of broad community interest, creating the risk that major process changes will be implemented without significant community review and feedback.  Also, in the past some GENDISPATCH chairs have made efforts to restrict such discussions along very narrow lines, e.g. insisting that all discussion on a topic be narrowly centered on a very biased draft document. Also, the constraints in GENDISPATCH's charter overly constrain the recommendations that GENDISPATCH can make. I don't think that discussion of such matters should be tightly controlled, beyond normal guidelines for conduct; nor that such discussion should be forcibly split between GENDISPATCH and other lists.   I also think it's unhelpful to insist that there be a draft in place before any such discussion can take place (in GENDISPATCH even moreso than with most technical discussions). More recently GENDISPATCH chairs have allowed some wider ranging discussion, but this has been a problem in the past. So I would not want to see GENDISPATCH enshrined in BCP45bis. I actually believe that the GENDISPATCH group be shut down, or at least, that its charter be drastically altered. Keith From nobody Wed Sep 29 17:23:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7A93A0B8A for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:23:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kvkr3KTHFCSx for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CCD83A0B91 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C125C011A for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:22:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=Ux0zSY6jZUWpxzPU9DH/iq6Km7efG+gWFUI3RPl+s xI=; b=Hs0Ans8rwS1SWSBMkK5jzz9FEkgtNNDEmkcrLvZPsqDTMXPYErE8EMErB JlY3Tmb109gFEQ0f/dr9YldJl1ejjiadCqWEzZOmJ4KclysCNpBRe+U5F11uWqxv CwBk1Tgtbr6lCF69XMiXJIMPIF3BodJ2zdBva5Jac6BkCtXCVKzBhtlvHIfVDlhl 0MBaaht72KmbfXwrBAPvoypoicndpxBj636Ps/2N1QbsEhQcQOyhWwGWEPA7GcZW PDdHM3/aqV6ojkftYZ0Z3FDMfUP7XRyYLzUR6dVwq5RQ+8ROmfmt1/zHugI4DBzB DRL1i5AkQOQFFmY3EqyOPLTUIHggg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudekfedgfedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehhfeutdehfe fgfefghfekhefguefgieduueegjeekfeelleeuieffteefueduueenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorh hkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:22:56 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> <3cc480f7-1338-933a-cd79-e3a54f1d7b0c@gmail.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <371655a8-cad9-f8b5-a2fc-66b668e0b247@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:22:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3cc480f7-1338-933a-cd79-e3a54f1d7b0c@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 00:23:03 -0000 On 9/29/21 6:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I have many times seen last call discussion veer off into extraneous technical topics and admin discussion veer off into standards process topics. Where are those topics to be raised, if not on ietf@ ? I believe IETF still needs a "general" list where topics that don't fit anywhere else, or really any topic of broad community interest or broad relevance to the Internet, can be discussed. Traditionally the ietf@ list has served that purpose.   I'm not saying that no other list could serve that purpose, but that we do need such a forum. It wouldn't make sense to say "no, you can't discuss that topic anywhere, because we don't have a list for that". Keith From nobody Wed Sep 29 17:28:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B133A0BBB for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:28:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gL3uvsUF2Wgi for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CCA03A0BA3 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168035C01B4 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:28:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=PLuViq E4p1Xxjt6vXP+Tkvgs3WeDpZpGtAVb1uGnwkA=; b=dadaFZPnAKrQ8uANHrNg+O 4ysRHYrf+HfU6wlWZX0GQRqFmjL5Q8pOk0q+uTwnyz4EhvqwaJwF9er+Yx9U3/mh pzqoFenU2ruZB+QmajvaIS9mA59d782CN+1BiuTIyrpb75+bTjM3rCzIpyQEFW0e 9fvfhizT7vNzC8/xKcmvznDHt3Qj1kOHNtdCSgNbqUu3cXBaICT1nEJJ8mT4yz0w g/DXQ0fPuM4qRt9WiThGCWpP4ANUtdMDd7r7N48oqRy7E52tD83BzL76xirhgRCT ViQqtyUajNQRz0MNm03goxj02lNyP4Jl7BqbPJxeFhNHBJQpNeOstlIa++PDCjjA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudekfedgfedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgesrgdtre ertdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveefteduieegtd elvddvtddufeejjeffvdefteejieeulefgtdfggedtffektedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfu ihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkh dqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:28:31 -0400 (EDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <55eb0a7e-1e5e-2a83-d2bc-555b432c5c1a@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 20:28:31 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6D171DB0D8EBE978E684E034" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 00:28:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6D171DB0D8EBE978E684E034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 9/29/21 6:56 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ > events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet > Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay > to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something > is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? Maybe the SAA team could have a contact at ISOC who could answer such questions? Keith --------------6D171DB0D8EBE978E684E034 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 9/29/21 6:56 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote:


Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts?

Maybe the SAA team could have a contact at ISOC who could answer such questions?

Keith


--------------6D171DB0D8EBE978E684E034-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 17:53:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6783A0C45; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kwlh3Zdkzk2; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64A7D3A0C15; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FC0497349B; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2ePVC6oPVD4; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3FC24972197; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:53:27 +1300 Cc: GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> References: To: Dhruv Dhody X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 00:53:41 -0000 > On 29/09/2021, at 11:56 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? An alternative is to qualify who can send them, such that: > Announcements of conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored = or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. becomes two bullets: > Announcements from Internet Society employees or board members, = regarding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or = endorsed by the Internet Society > Announcements from the IESG, IAB, IETF LLC, IETF Trust and IETF = Secretariat, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are = sponsored or endorsed by the IETF. Jay >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv =20 >=20 > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >=20 > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Sep 29 17:54:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id 81E0C3A0C42; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6783A0C45; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kwlh3Zdkzk2; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64A7D3A0C15; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FC0497349B; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2ePVC6oPVD4; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3FC24972197; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:53:27 +1300 Cc: GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> References: To: Dhruv Dhody X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210930005341.81E0C3A0C42@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 00:53:42 -0000 > On 29/09/2021, at 11:56 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? An alternative is to qualify who can send them, such that: > Announcements of conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored = or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. becomes two bullets: > Announcements from Internet Society employees or board members, = regarding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or = endorsed by the Internet Society > Announcements from the IESG, IAB, IETF LLC, IETF Trust and IETF = Secretariat, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are = sponsored or endorsed by the IETF. Jay >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv =20 >=20 > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >=20 > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Sep 29 18:13:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD8E3A0C81 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HmAPBkVcc3BU for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com (mail-pl1-x633.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DACD3A0C82 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id y1so2788372plk.10 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:13:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=68ai3/pNc9NqazTRWlvtkKrZVmOU5UQojikzeibrWSo=; b=ZEgKQgrRYHk8GYRyeMdhtl5k+U82GOr/wRU6PBWi3Ki5V4z4y6S43qSMxHhX+nScIf lp0qejyeggHDgnjUiSIc4IHCe4eU7Ueg6udoBgU2nrkAMiN5Dad/0Goh19h9yz2Fh5al fqzfux8Ll69YEwKpwqlJGF8WRnNc1glRtC9qCe2U7qhrkJx1vil+TvHobDzoYLYNZVUH tbbLFzrBhrnj1PMIb2QZ9fvKRO54Fp0GoQfMxjvrrX1VTNfz46pybSJPxk6JOOi/TMCl 75Fc/jjSIFg0odITkKTx5dwrqD4KUiQtZ1hoIu6yKxWbEYVyx1iATYHdVgCFE2dVXwM5 9tEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=68ai3/pNc9NqazTRWlvtkKrZVmOU5UQojikzeibrWSo=; b=vbCZciy+Eu/Z/vSIriNigYo2ydYuTfNd3hsEaBrHYmEtQzhQxFcMveyshjThn9rfY1 SnTElFfq/n7kjrCwK4/jeRvRrg2SuCUlMvdolk68lZoVIpvISPotppQ2g3EbEugI/Zxb JLUJZXA30Qw11mxRW7kXxsTKsSX+e3npBGdShEUD7tP6QKLPuhwI7ExrTMwl3fwMpHPo 2Ny7jAp9Tge9CHmvIBEhxUqYiX+k4XSICAQ1er4NIFl+Pe854wONW1Q5JIruneysZTI3 9RxQ8M/YUkcFaDR3jDXcRh3UsRheVbV3xVY0FboAljr3nKw9JDKHeu1gulLiNtL/PGJL A/NA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533nnhCwbQIL91TWjXV57XdSeUsG8N4SY2xn0DOQJjpIYNH0QHm6 5GEGn6Kvh8N68pe+s1mik9Zpyz6Ek+OrNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzejgl9AfFYKlPujRWIO+vTrkgmXOqx+8hhsgcKlrXwQ/OOfdl/haSLAW2cfG1hl3bbmf1P8A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4a04:: with SMTP id e4mr3186385pjh.51.1632964417273; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i8sm865439pfo.117.2021.09.29.18.13.35 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:13:36 -0700 (PDT) To: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <73de8e6c-6c07-ac14-819c-b4c663275b51@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:13:32 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:13:43 -0000 On 30-Sep-21 13:53, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 29/09/2021, at 11:56 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? > > An alternative is to qualify who can send them, such that: > >> Announcements of conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. > > becomes two bullets: > >> Announcements from Internet Society employees or board members, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society >> Announcements from the IESG, IAB, IETF LLC, IETF Trust and IETF Secretariat, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the IETF. That goes too far. People legitimately announce side meetings, sometimes even design team meetings, that are of interest to the community but are not formally "sponsored or endorsed". These days, such meetings are no longer limited to the "side" of a face to face meeting, so could come any time, and ietf@ is really the only list we have for that. In any case, the SAAs already have discretion if someone oversteps. Take this legislation too far and the only option will be alt.ietf (for all I know, that already exists). Brian > > > Jay > > > >> >> Thanks! >> Dhruv >> >> [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >> >> PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 >> -- >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > From nobody Wed Sep 29 18:21:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8625C3A0CCB for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xzRYyrPzaHDD for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D43F23A0CC8 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id b10so5504099ioq.9 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CPJD9jrRXhPi6p2SyuICdvl4odfNDvT24NliZ6HUj+o=; b=UauMqjovkQxw0M69qKqbQHJOdBivssP2AEYV20f0wyurTfZuzcobHKHzT6qSOwUIEZ FOHLY6RrBBAVQ4R3qlZdvs6HOkbw5xC1dLVoa4UfyJifxaPrlsw+APTwEWfJs2N2Rjnu qUNaC2lL25CWtPTcdqmX+PP5jQsNtZl/9OXH/Ly8EfxNx7IZGtSP0MnS/6d5dY6kwenm KK961W1j+/1wlfqrJPxoSOyCjrValzG3AkqKfPKzIKRpL1ObZuwgZ+pgSoaXV+WbFFkE dgP1VlrxuuFIl0S+3quVeO9vg4tcGYCSldsOLBYK2DiCtVs1kCb1GEF8eGKFzQr+Iez6 jTkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CPJD9jrRXhPi6p2SyuICdvl4odfNDvT24NliZ6HUj+o=; b=oqCY0lj3ufWRZn24+UAQGuZ9l70kcEiPjxZyh/J6EepIe7NDvfVIqZ+p6r38Rlu1rV gCCt9lh9wWR6GmxFhCmRjRTUv9qhuoOtcVDP+YKqYkeUZl/JV9FzFE9dEDOKk/3dx0w0 2fkV7K9C4RPkDDnyCgAVt2Tg5lKdBV21Ux1qDopCPYjlr0dgqzO0iHEYz3tfcuGsmy1Y zGGT5rH15vJzg8hozsvkn5G4VKOhZ+PdbofkNWOHsBtSZJ9KOqLndO2ynH3SE5qku3wK CVlSkr9tuxDKJTKOl8phtYtMOntxgkDiQ2L6V40/2s4qRY/ZmmanwDpidThOnqPInmPi tEXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53069lhPyc47WxxZi1U3vfmclEGEexRxPudh11jVqRwNJiUTCSHj FzmvdyWgrs0i67UreKm2vwAEcY+uVpkB/N9Hy+YeXcpz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJztYfAnm6tIjw0RUNag/hIDdt2Rh3mm0Kn7CzFuOKJ44Iyt2nc5fc0jrNQmQyxd6faX2CjecsIWY6LB60sKyXg= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:de08:: with SMTP id e8mr2018067iok.151.1632964870765; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> <73de8e6c-6c07-ac14-819c-b4c663275b51@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <73de8e6c-6c07-ac14-819c-b4c663275b51@gmail.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:21:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: GENDISPATCH List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d80c805cd2c435d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:21:14 -0000 --0000000000000d80c805cd2c435d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 6:13 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > Take this legislation too far and the only option will be alt.ietf (for > all I know, that already exists). > That is pretty much what many would welcome, imho. It's not a topic for this draft, but a free flowing discussion forum that carries no organizational weight seems fine. Why not let the "marketplace of ideas" inhabit a separate space from the "the most general list"? That's the design issue at hand, I think. thanks, Rob --0000000000000d80c805cd2c435d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 6:13 PM Brian E C= arpenter <brian.e.carpent= er@gmail.com> wrote:

Take this legislation too far and the only option will be alt.ietf (for all= I know, that already exists).

That is = pretty much what many would welcome,=C2=A0imho.

It= 's not a topic for this draft, but a free flowing discussion forum that= carries no organizational weight seems fine.

Why = not let the "marketplace of ideas" inhabit a separate space from = the "the most general list"? That's the design issue at hand,= I think.

thanks,
Rob

--0000000000000d80c805cd2c435d-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 18:35:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B3D3A0D22 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:35:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSx6GL4d_kwO for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3196C3A0D1C for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5EC149734A4; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:35:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k2dcjN8AeI_D; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C6E2497219E; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 18:35:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <10E945A7-F402-498B-90ED-960C6F748C7C@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A782274A-4413-4B4F-ABB0-4429DEDA92A3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:35:34 +1300 In-Reply-To: <73de8e6c-6c07-ac14-819c-b4c663275b51@gmail.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> <73de8e6c-6c07-ac14-819c-b4c663275b51@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:35:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A782274A-4413-4B4F-ABB0-4429DEDA92A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 30/09/2021, at 2:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 30-Sep-21 13:53, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 29/09/2021, at 11:56 PM, Dhruv Dhody = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? >>=20 >> An alternative is to qualify who can send them, such that: >>=20 >>> Announcements of conferences, events, or activities that are = sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. >>=20 >> becomes two bullets: >>=20 >>> Announcements from Internet Society employees or board members, = regarding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or = endorsed by the Internet Society >>> Announcements from the IESG, IAB, IETF LLC, IETF Trust and IETF = Secretariat, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are = sponsored or endorsed by the IETF. >=20 > That goes too far. People legitimately announce side meetings, = sometimes even design team meetings, that are of interest to the = community but are not formally "sponsored or endorsed". Those are not permitted by the current rules in RFC 3005. My text = doesn=E2=80=99t restrict permitted subjects any further than it already = is. Jay > These days, such meetings are no longer limited to the "side" of a = face to face meeting, so could come any time, and ietf@ is really the = only list we have for that. In any case, the SAAs already have = discretion if someone oversteps. >=20 > Take this legislation too far and the only option will be alt.ietf = (for all I know, that already exists). >=20 > Brian >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks! >>> Dhruv =20 >>>=20 >>> [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ = >>>=20 >>> PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 = >>> --=20 >>> Gendispatch mailing list >>> Gendispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_A782274A-4413-4B4F-ABB0-4429DEDA92A3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 30/09/2021, at 2:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 30-Sep-21 13:53, Jay Daley wrote:


On = 29/09/2021, at 11:56 PM, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

Both RFC3005 and = draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ events/activities that = are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. The SAA team = is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Internet Society; as = it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. = Thoughts?

An alternative is to = qualify who can send them, such that:

Announcements of = conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the = Internet Society or IETF.

becomes two bullets:

Announcements from Internet Society employees = or board members, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are = sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society
Announcements = from the IESG, IAB, IETF LLC, IETF Trust and IETF Secretariat, regarding = conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the = IETF.

That goes too far. People legitimately announce side = meetings, sometimes even design team meetings, that are of interest to = the community but are not formally "sponsored or endorsed". =

Those are not = permitted by the current rules in RFC 3005.  My text doesn=E2=80=99t = restrict permitted subjects any further than it already = is.

Jay

These days, such meetings are no = longer limited to the "side" of a face to face meeting, so could come = any time, and ietf@ is really the only list we have for that. In any = case, the SAAs already have discretion if someone oversteps.

Take this legislation too far = and the only option will be alt.ietf (for all I know, that already = exists).

  Brian





Jay




Thanks!
Dhruv =    

[1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/

PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9
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Gendispatch mailing = list
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-- 
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exec-director@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_A782274A-4413-4B4F-ABB0-4429DEDA92A3-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 19:32:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D24C93A0E62; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VwJCDLFPIAwA; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F80F3A0E5D; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id q23so3617391pfs.9; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:32:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wsIctJrGJYYcCuvmgmZaWqNBYDZ534WQt2k3iOZmSr4=; b=VteR8pcI0hMjKLQ09cfHM7eDpObVLflfrVClX+ZjDhVJf3zY6fMsOn3c9xLfwxdTu3 KmYOLoFaxrMfwgDbAJdmi7nU3Ro+eIqfhtM5My1yS+U/ewftwbeIFczIF8oIsVU8NFPR 3C2sGOlu53wcepNjKSyyU3pe/QJgCPpE3m//DjYeKg/XAbg9KHLZY5h1EbvrZWAfx/VZ ZYs0DhkAa6IhFvBRAnY3tDn4UovjqaYr4fJuRyM9fpK/rNsg/2Lm9Kzv4esQtpUhIkWK B+ZRTmfHkLE8iHoQoknz5+3KnTLoInT7IpfsI0QZmNK9B1wcJ+f+COTNS4CXLRnc2atr ZwKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wsIctJrGJYYcCuvmgmZaWqNBYDZ534WQt2k3iOZmSr4=; b=2bUIto32HMVatgao+k3dcPFhbA18Iy6MiSO8PztOeKPBHSeiezjX0BKMb4XMoG47gF kakZBwnzhU1RrZdWcmiqh4F0DeYAOrUs2fg0WCGpw0nBKKpqdOEmGcXy8AxF2INzNJN3 sggXC+zvifbN5HDF8R7Ie1j91LNyRoxlaxkUzJFJ1lHAACSDH7/rqfu+evqEN0kc96ZA Q4VKZQJKZHPcbmk/SqWjSOnauQKMnPEEa86h+qiIM4VLD1X+oRBoM4hcE+B38c0eZx9B n4sxYOlSx2X26+IBQJO5UBqVkW53q5Eo/XDa1lLFdFUxtbnsdOjplPgyAwgUW+gequ3Z cjxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531TxOIkVrJP/s+mpcilSRDByVOntGODoRiZitGhmc2a83ovXk8P 31zwBWAFaJuaOu8pcbHrJuFR/IomXVCh2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy8f1MNUCtPHqbxbdjEib5zWCWwA13weaixP/Fl2O0Tyzj+v45TmcziKQKAFKC/jkbZxwPVYA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ef58:: with SMTP id c24mr2721626pgk.299.1632969134730; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11aa:d701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s4sm939968pfw.182.2021.09.29.19.32.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 19:32:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Jay Daley Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org References: <69A80D31-D09A-4529-BD2E-C6DE5C24A1E6@ietf.org> <73de8e6c-6c07-ac14-819c-b4c663275b51@gmail.com> <10E945A7-F402-498B-90ED-960C6F748C7C@ietf.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <31cb4bc8-5eea-619f-fc37-6259b8db1526@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:32:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10E945A7-F402-498B-90ED-960C6F748C7C@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 02:32:20 -0000 On 30-Sep-21 14:35, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 30/09/2021, at 2:13 PM, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> >> On 30-Sep-21 13:53, Jay Daley wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 29/09/2021, at 11:56 PM, Dhruv Dhody > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ eve= nts/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or = IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove Int= ernet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored= /endorsed [1]. Thoughts? >>> >>> An alternative is to qualify who can send them, such that: >>> >>>> Announcements of conferences, events, or activities that are sponsor= ed or endorsed by the Internet Society or IETF. >>> >>> becomes two bullets: >>> >>>> Announcements from Internet Society employees or board members, rega= rding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored or endorsed b= y the Internet Society >>>> Announcements from the IESG, IAB, IETF LLC, IETF Trust and IETF Secr= etariat, regarding conferences, events, or activities that are sponsored = or endorsed by the IETF. >> >> That goes too far. People legitimately announce side meetings, sometim= es even design team meetings, that are of interest to the community but a= re not formally "sponsored or endorsed".=20 >=20 > Those are not permitted by the current rules in RFC 3005. =C2=A0My text=20 doesn=E2=80=99t restrict permitted subjects any further than it already i= s. I've never read that phrase in 3005 to apply to such discussions, but to = commercial endeavours. Brian >=20 > Jay >=20 >> These days, such meetings are no longer limited to the "side" of a fac= e to face meeting, so could come any time, and ietf@ is really the only l= ist we have for that. In any case, the SAAs already have discretion if so= meone oversteps. >> >> Take this legislation too far and the only option will be alt.ietf (fo= r all I know, that already exists). >> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0Brian >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> Dhruv =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 >>>> >>>> [1]=C2=A0https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >>>> >>>> PR ->=C2=A0https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 >>>> --=C2=A0 >>>> Gendispatch mailing list >>>> Gendispatch@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >>> >> >> --=C2=A0 >> Gendispatch mailing list >> Gendispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >=20 > --=C2=A0 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 29 21:26:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CFD3A114C; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO9zgmy18ZdA; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88CF03A114B; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id b10so5904994ioq.9; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H1Rmd5r7+jxaL7+N/ImZjyZRh2T6JN9G4oFtbkYfsoE=; b=G/Ukq2uPbzwn5nz07Z8KxYl1ElQKiSpN264/NKQCLJwYSHw+S6OrBFlWkfMDqHx57/ SReF//wWZ56mzmEQgIdFjheK6lLOEHzxEmZ1xy6KeG0NZVrMeb8JZDHOjPFhhFGcYgHW VBmcMsUHP5YNwH58O4QmgAYpIyueHK5PihUeJ32+ZTGY45cMycxoFBadR9guHFCbt1s0 Ko2jPlV90nZ2qQwUrOxGyMNpVbId9ir+lu47RVD4SWzT4ku3JwxhbvkdyWbvx8aDG94N 00SfKqLJdUuk1mH8+05njbY0IKG7BnG+n6lvOaIleKwcKVERIpVP9gLaDBhmudT1Zw0U pF1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H1Rmd5r7+jxaL7+N/ImZjyZRh2T6JN9G4oFtbkYfsoE=; b=73WX9A1lUA4YUlHpyUTnP3GYnl/wa6vl5m3KopMvkQ4gQITS/9goxuPN764hJcpgvR UIjefvzeZGUsGOcohHrC1UsVjWYc9gey3mWZz2ICAUPmoeOkiNiIsjUGQmwZKIYZCUrA x61BWKSibBp0oWIgK+Q2HRwdzzeCz0Nsqz7wmDzu1N/dPOOcIHD5+asbBV/XDvCXfLK1 w9z5oTgUzcG6JfcgneIbUB5ZjIMuJrkb3xXcMzYz1eGWuS/xR/ejhWMUG6H3ZdT6JqHo FfBSc54Y04YzxpwfrQybupv//Yhqk06Vs7Oah4p8WlfcCZaMCsnWVmxRnxfjCR7uJbzY jpfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532t1ixULNKRSKiHMs7ox7MZsHlhEY+MOw7DOZz76Neg1KcMoylM 1IIu4+iK20QHnl4hSNIgmwQegKqo9X0+SUYLPj6DjM4Z X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwS1DQCFLVS7oGNJyQPuPV755d/U22S7K04/2OtBn8pLadFzrNz2JXZ1gc5i2o5DWHN/3KuRIpo4yEInbhjdlE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:dcc:: with SMTP id m12mr3003926jaj.68.1632975998299; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:56:01 +0530 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:26:45 -0000 --0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Thanks for the feedback soo far. I agree that this is not a problem in practice. However, if every event/activity sponsored/endorsed by ISOC is announced on the list -- that would be problematic, though unlikely. We got some feedback last year to limit the announcement of non-IETF events/activities on the list and thus looking for further feedback from the community. Thanks! Dhruv On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:26 PM Dhruv Dhody wrote: > Hi, > > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ > events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or > IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove > Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC > sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? > > Thanks! > Dhruv > > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ > > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > --0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Thanks for the feedback = soo far.=C2=A0

I agree that this is not a problem in practice. However, if = every event/activity sponsored/endorsed by ISOC is announced on the list --= that would be problematic,=C2=A0though unlikely.=C2=A0

We got some feedbac= k last year to limit the announcement of non-IETF events/activities on the = list and thus looking for further feedback from the community.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;fo= nt-size:small;color:#073763">
Than= ks!=C2=A0
Dhruv

On Wed, Sep 29, 202= 1 at 4:26 PM Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.= ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text o= n conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Inte= rnet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay= to remove Internet Society; as it is = difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Dhruv =C2=A0 =C2=A0

[1] https://www.internetsociety.org/= events/

PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9<= /a>
--0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 21:27:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id D5E023A114D; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CFD3A114C; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO9zgmy18ZdA; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88CF03A114B; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id b10so5904994ioq.9; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H1Rmd5r7+jxaL7+N/ImZjyZRh2T6JN9G4oFtbkYfsoE=; b=G/Ukq2uPbzwn5nz07Z8KxYl1ElQKiSpN264/NKQCLJwYSHw+S6OrBFlWkfMDqHx57/ SReF//wWZ56mzmEQgIdFjheK6lLOEHzxEmZ1xy6KeG0NZVrMeb8JZDHOjPFhhFGcYgHW VBmcMsUHP5YNwH58O4QmgAYpIyueHK5PihUeJ32+ZTGY45cMycxoFBadR9guHFCbt1s0 Ko2jPlV90nZ2qQwUrOxGyMNpVbId9ir+lu47RVD4SWzT4ku3JwxhbvkdyWbvx8aDG94N 00SfKqLJdUuk1mH8+05njbY0IKG7BnG+n6lvOaIleKwcKVERIpVP9gLaDBhmudT1Zw0U pF1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H1Rmd5r7+jxaL7+N/ImZjyZRh2T6JN9G4oFtbkYfsoE=; b=73WX9A1lUA4YUlHpyUTnP3GYnl/wa6vl5m3KopMvkQ4gQITS/9goxuPN764hJcpgvR UIjefvzeZGUsGOcohHrC1UsVjWYc9gey3mWZz2ICAUPmoeOkiNiIsjUGQmwZKIYZCUrA x61BWKSibBp0oWIgK+Q2HRwdzzeCz0Nsqz7wmDzu1N/dPOOcIHD5+asbBV/XDvCXfLK1 w9z5oTgUzcG6JfcgneIbUB5ZjIMuJrkb3xXcMzYz1eGWuS/xR/ejhWMUG6H3ZdT6JqHo FfBSc54Y04YzxpwfrQybupv//Yhqk06Vs7Oah4p8WlfcCZaMCsnWVmxRnxfjCR7uJbzY jpfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532t1ixULNKRSKiHMs7ox7MZsHlhEY+MOw7DOZz76Neg1KcMoylM 1IIu4+iK20QHnl4hSNIgmwQegKqo9X0+SUYLPj6DjM4Z X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwS1DQCFLVS7oGNJyQPuPV755d/U22S7K04/2OtBn8pLadFzrNz2JXZ1gc5i2o5DWHN/3KuRIpo4yEInbhjdlE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:dcc:: with SMTP id m12mr3003926jaj.68.1632975998299; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:56:01 +0530 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa" Resent-From: Resent-To: rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org, lars@eggert.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210930042644.D5E023A114D@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 21:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:26:45 -0000 --0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Thanks for the feedback soo far. I agree that this is not a problem in practice. However, if every event/activity sponsored/endorsed by ISOC is announced on the list -- that would be problematic, though unlikely. We got some feedback last year to limit the announcement of non-IETF events/activities on the list and thus looking for further feedback from the community. Thanks! Dhruv On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:26 PM Dhruv Dhody wrote: > Hi, > > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ > events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society or > IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove > Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC > sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? > > Thanks! > Dhruv > > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ > > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > --0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Thanks for the feedback = soo far.=C2=A0

I agree that this is not a problem in practice. However, if = every event/activity sponsored/endorsed by ISOC is announced on the list --= that would be problematic,=C2=A0though unlikely.=C2=A0

We got some feedbac= k last year to limit the announcement of non-IETF events/activities on the = list and thus looking for further feedback from the community.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;fo= nt-size:small;color:#073763">
Than= ks!=C2=A0
Dhruv

On Wed, Sep 29, 202= 1 at 4:26 PM Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.= ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text o= n conferences/ events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Inte= rnet Society or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay= to remove Internet Society; as it is = difficult to judge if something is ISOC sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts?
Thanks!
Dhruv =C2=A0 =C2=A0

[1] https://www.internetsociety.org/= events/

PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9<= /a>
--0000000000004e351605cd2edaaa-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 22:21:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C6C3A1426; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPRcz3Lw_4ro; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B1093A141F; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id t189so5851468oie.7; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=QwkWsdsQtbdqoHCwJ+pep0udUigqodRr+eAY8YutIm4=; b=jV1Tt47LwALVT9xGyblURGZaksZEOAcMePiTucywxJJ7ZP44/35vTLgH5K9HFyOtdn QVTun2ak/RdY8Ub+tT2NpmW4J2oVbRWOk28siIlLYG0myOplCBL6Nm3DKv1gS6cgvQy9 NnlCFhU++Dz0b914oGEtFxgmMWAWouOsnNu8c4MEZczWufIrShAcl7ZTuprZqLgMPiC0 tKPFCletByGi067OPJ04t3XFO92oLfC22tWajPKi1htEspAiaij9Y/1UbT+irWkalemK KDjFkCpI9Ad1UpEZFpTQl2TbjpVH+wYtmUh5+4t4iTHEG9Xq/bW9ek7WO6XrmX7gkpWd /OYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=QwkWsdsQtbdqoHCwJ+pep0udUigqodRr+eAY8YutIm4=; b=UZp1APRYONk8s2QtwSqIQq4/erNO5OPZQke4720+GsTuKC5wEDyRjb0Q8R/smPP7q4 6cvYN6INT2IcsRMpQwre9t4H9wd8U2v6EBAFj835fHe9N6DoppeLQa/4xgynn/5x5rLU vNw0zPbpODfdFackMNrD0fLAJCwWbQDEndIcrNHM9C+H6oqZMS8BILpglp3oQPY0mhTn gJp6Jz1CaLjlsNzmd6PJDiHKAt58pkaC/7LuMxq8upuJGWs1DOpcNu2S6zwYXZcCIEhN fItQwMs5s7CzG2yQLYYYEeh8kDZ4aoNnGbKt7F5tQJafDZz3b0L0pDzF3T3kXKfyqG6A YgAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EqFeYOEdIt/AKN2rF7y7ya0iha2Cd+R8PwgHTnF1SXywhAsCB mJRsxkkYeiMGq04NJkqUgzkxZsWTTpo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9ECrIpaqPjtZhJqlf8dn45AIFXmmv2i8xfhtX2ltFVx1xoG/FTV+gNmM03VNDnmqV+xb/jQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1454:: with SMTP id x20mr1303404oiv.23.1632979307451; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-73-223-183-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.223.183.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g12sm405655oof.6.2021.09.29.22.21.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <67FE7304-3FE9-4CBA-84A4-6DAC8E9F6E5D@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:44 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org To: Dhruv Dhody References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:21:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dhruv, > On Sep 29, 2021, at 9:26 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Thanks for the feedback soo far. >=20 > I agree that this is not a problem in practice. However, if every = event/activity sponsored/endorsed by ISOC is announced on the list -- = that would be problematic, though unlikely. Let=E2=80=99s focus on problems we actually have, I don=E2=80=99t see = any evidence there is a problem to solve here. Bob > We got some feedback last year to limit the announcement of non-IETF = events/activities on the list and thus looking for further feedback from = the community. >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv >=20 > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:26 PM Dhruv Dhody = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv >=20 > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >=20 > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFVSWgACgkQrut0EXfn u6gskwf/fxNCrqMEw/YcAV9LW6MVA3DYTOc+RZFLMIb9OrGGbxrrkLO4M7nmpImJ e8Mx7yhhKnWN2TMOCXK91u1rPz1qkfBxK4PbNsDbux2CZxkcT67TB3TjlX83IrAN xghDgZ+NCnPTFZwerorpwkf0uHcOdgnf0MA1LIrETJ8aZlJr7DV/tKPOuWjA0yfW gKrxKmt1rOXp9xu8NilwcYzKq+BQeT2thVbeLHZcL1AQOOQlKpIHO7q86C8TCLJs Ggs57CKXcreBMnfPh74JQy0Or4oUw7gIdJbIX3nFvH2EG8e3TUIi1xCnpnEdPvN9 hvl8QOsCD/dQC8Rs4ZwMQMoofF5HbA== =BtaF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2-- From nobody Wed Sep 29 22:21:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: expand-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@virtual.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 65534) id BED4D3A1428; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: xfilter-draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C6C3A1426; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPRcz3Lw_4ro; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B1093A141F; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id t189so5851468oie.7; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=QwkWsdsQtbdqoHCwJ+pep0udUigqodRr+eAY8YutIm4=; b=jV1Tt47LwALVT9xGyblURGZaksZEOAcMePiTucywxJJ7ZP44/35vTLgH5K9HFyOtdn QVTun2ak/RdY8Ub+tT2NpmW4J2oVbRWOk28siIlLYG0myOplCBL6Nm3DKv1gS6cgvQy9 NnlCFhU++Dz0b914oGEtFxgmMWAWouOsnNu8c4MEZczWufIrShAcl7ZTuprZqLgMPiC0 tKPFCletByGi067OPJ04t3XFO92oLfC22tWajPKi1htEspAiaij9Y/1UbT+irWkalemK KDjFkCpI9Ad1UpEZFpTQl2TbjpVH+wYtmUh5+4t4iTHEG9Xq/bW9ek7WO6XrmX7gkpWd /OYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=QwkWsdsQtbdqoHCwJ+pep0udUigqodRr+eAY8YutIm4=; b=UZp1APRYONk8s2QtwSqIQq4/erNO5OPZQke4720+GsTuKC5wEDyRjb0Q8R/smPP7q4 6cvYN6INT2IcsRMpQwre9t4H9wd8U2v6EBAFj835fHe9N6DoppeLQa/4xgynn/5x5rLU vNw0zPbpODfdFackMNrD0fLAJCwWbQDEndIcrNHM9C+H6oqZMS8BILpglp3oQPY0mhTn gJp6Jz1CaLjlsNzmd6PJDiHKAt58pkaC/7LuMxq8upuJGWs1DOpcNu2S6zwYXZcCIEhN fItQwMs5s7CzG2yQLYYYEeh8kDZ4aoNnGbKt7F5tQJafDZz3b0L0pDzF3T3kXKfyqG6A YgAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EqFeYOEdIt/AKN2rF7y7ya0iha2Cd+R8PwgHTnF1SXywhAsCB mJRsxkkYeiMGq04NJkqUgzkxZsWTTpo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9ECrIpaqPjtZhJqlf8dn45AIFXmmv2i8xfhtX2ltFVx1xoG/FTV+gNmM03VNDnmqV+xb/jQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1454:: with SMTP id x20mr1303404oiv.23.1632979307451; Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-73-223-183-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.223.183.113]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g12sm405655oof.6.2021.09.29.22.21.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <67FE7304-3FE9-4CBA-84A4-6DAC8E9F6E5D@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:44 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , GENDISPATCH List , draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org To: Dhruv Dhody References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Resent-From: Resent-To: lars@eggert.org, rwilton@cisco.com, gendispatch@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20210930052153.BED4D3A1428@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 22:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Sponsored or Endorsed by the Internet Society in draft-eggert-bcp45bis X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:21:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dhruv, > On Sep 29, 2021, at 9:26 PM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Thanks for the feedback soo far. >=20 > I agree that this is not a problem in practice. However, if every = event/activity sponsored/endorsed by ISOC is announced on the list -- = that would be problematic, though unlikely. Let=E2=80=99s focus on problems we actually have, I don=E2=80=99t see = any evidence there is a problem to solve here. Bob > We got some feedback last year to limit the announcement of non-IETF = events/activities on the list and thus looking for further feedback from = the community. >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv >=20 > On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:26 PM Dhruv Dhody = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Both RFC3005 and draft-eggert-bcp45bis have text on conferences/ = events/activities that are sponsored or endorsed by the Internet Society = or IETF. The SAA team is looking for suggestions if it is okay to remove = Internet Society; as it is difficult to judge if something is ISOC = sponsored/endorsed [1]. Thoughts? >=20 > Thanks! > Dhruv >=20 > [1] https://www.internetsociety.org/events/ >=20 > PR -> https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/9 > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch --Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFVSWgACgkQrut0EXfn u6gskwf/fxNCrqMEw/YcAV9LW6MVA3DYTOc+RZFLMIb9OrGGbxrrkLO4M7nmpImJ e8Mx7yhhKnWN2TMOCXK91u1rPz1qkfBxK4PbNsDbux2CZxkcT67TB3TjlX83IrAN xghDgZ+NCnPTFZwerorpwkf0uHcOdgnf0MA1LIrETJ8aZlJr7DV/tKPOuWjA0yfW gKrxKmt1rOXp9xu8NilwcYzKq+BQeT2thVbeLHZcL1AQOOQlKpIHO7q86C8TCLJs Ggs57CKXcreBMnfPh74JQy0Or4oUw7gIdJbIX3nFvH2EG8e3TUIi1xCnpnEdPvN9 hvl8QOsCD/dQC8Rs4ZwMQMoofF5HbA== =BtaF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B484689B-7BD6-4795-8CEF-B3C65D8DFFA2-- From nobody Thu Sep 30 01:53:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7612E3A08D8 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:53:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCDvKDU-8u6V for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EACA3A08D7 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 01:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:218a:e90a:3666:76e7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E81E0600070; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:52:44 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1632991965; bh=QFYC5ge/vOA9m8D85HSFICLOoQkPRvBhkmZc020bY0w=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=T1ttr2/Zz2EsbGJR785VBaIash0wEfnNSJGG4WLbIgWQqr7oByg5WJU32X1Q1tq85 4jXjgsM7I/DnNR9lu8p67Nq7qLvJCjmiXINLm2Prw3PvBSXcxT3OFO1WlJm9K5Vs+c uH3Q4oq7ixYR7vcF54p+hPbT+3HK7KuVngSJZ0V0= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_52A6F118-B2C4-47F5-A052-76F814E5ADAA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 11:52:40 +0300 In-Reply-To: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <188353ab-9801-1c4f-2c66-4dd6901912c6@gmail.com> X-MailScanner-ID: E81E0600070.A20C6 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:53:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_52A6F118-B2C4-47F5-A052-76F814E5ADAA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-9-30, at 0:52, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > 1) The current BCP45 states "It also hosts discussions of IETF = direction, policy, meetings, and procedures." That has been deleted in = the draft, which leaves a gap. Most of those topics moved to admin-discuss and the meeting attendees = lists. Others are in scope for gendispatch (although I am unsure whether = a possibly ephemeral WG should be explicitly named in the BCP). > I think that the list of appropriate postings should include something = like: >=20 > * Discussions of IETF direction, policy, and the standards process in = general. >=20 > (and perhaps mention that drafts in this area go to GENDISPATCH.) I think this may be a little too broad. How about: * Discussions of IETF direction, policy, and the standards process in general, when a more suitable list (such as admin-discuss, architecture-discuss, a meeting attendees list, or a process-oriented WG list) cannot be identified. > 2) I suggest an extra sentence just after this: >=20 >> These topics used to be in scope for the IETF discussion list, but = have since moved to dedicated lists: >>=20 >> * Last Call discussions of proposed protocol actions now take place = on the IETF Last Calls mailing list [LAST-CALLS]. >>=20 >> * Discussion of IETF administrative policies now take place on the = discussion list for IETF LLC administrative issues [ADMIN-DISCUSS]. >=20 > Add: >=20 > However, if the discussion is broader than the specific protocol = concerned, or than administration as such, it may revert to the IETF = discussion list, preferably with an appropriate change of the Subject = header. >=20 > [For example, if the Last Call discussion identifies a completely = separate technical requirement, or if the admin discussion identifies a = problem with the standards process.] I agree that should be possible. Do you think that with the proposed = change above, this would still need to be explicitly called out again? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_52A6F118-B2C4-47F5-A052-76F814E5ADAA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFVetgACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeZcBAAkqQi1MhJIo8xBY1KSzAJzoix+BCRPTuGC75nCZi/Y9/wcGWuAt9xkCf2 nhM5ezN7LMK2TSOI8egOWDBMz5tjFDH9UqJ068WY5hKuhSFQkfBff6RQHE4jvrgZ YPTRc2KwOjgDJb7wRat0cdmCT/2vUvaON6/yBcdrKWtpRFsV1GIFHI4nsLH4XYnY C/E77xGpow7Ry8tWttxlPm1x/p6xpNm2mQmQzt7ys2zeWszwFT7ZRhVvfh1MtCWF Wqo2hK9xo17Xnho17z/JkUZFQ7S8BQNlinV0to5vzkbaNJWe0ic8RWZfeyXvJteh hTVOXH4eW9MVDhU2HsPls1jrfvGWibF6WsMykCbGSGsVqc1b2yfAuLAtupZXwcv0 jEluM4GLgKlhSrOBxRVpDJe3rpKsJ8CEu0v4BCg+hXsLhef0emnZFIO3hcJeb5+T +KIExQlCRB2SLTXPVY8fEk+LJn/fEmtoL5zQdliWfzr1XusJyiWsRe4XaUfNXzwc lMIwZBQCVCRDHlq6AvmWhxUa4QCOQY8ppo2bV47W5yHyNnIDSZCsae7bNDviKCqQ 6RaJnpbO4eDfeP9ZTwnGwSKf1y5/G69jiGfe+jIE4WFdDKphRW3r8R+I9k2n+nnn 0j9dQrC7ocmKiyeANepQ5iwlRn2UTzKujtYLYu0IIyUsHlomvYs= =2ZNx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_52A6F118-B2C4-47F5-A052-76F814E5ADAA-- From nobody Thu Sep 30 23:39:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964C93A0896; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:39:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.38.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163307035459.16292.12035199300248451406@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:39:14 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-05.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:39:24 -0000 A new version (-05) has been submitted for draft-eggert-bcp45bis: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-05.txt https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-05.html The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ Diff from previous version: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-05 IETF Secretariat.