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Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:57:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org, gendispatch@ietf.org, kirsty.p@ncsc.gov.uk, lars@eggert.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164250703552.12711.8649734869258631816@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:57:16 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] gendispatch - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 113 X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 11:57:17 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Kirsty Paine, a Chair of the gendispatch working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: General Area Dispatch Area Name: General Area Session Requester: Kirsty Paine Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): unspecified Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: genarea shmoo dispatch quic artarea emailcore iabopen Technology overlap: secdispatch rfcefdp Key participant conflict: tcpm People who must be present: Pete Resnick Lars Eggert Kirsty Paine Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jan 24 13:13:50 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E9C3A0DA5; 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Fri, 28 Jan 2022 00:54:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kirsty Paine Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:54:31 +0000 Message-ID: To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012be5e05d6a09631" Archived-At: Subject: [Gendispatch] dispatching draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:54:49 -0000 --00000000000012be5e05d6a09631 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi gendispatch, We'd like to gauge consensus on-list after the IETF 112 meeting about how best to dispatch draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust [1], noting it has had an update (-02) in December (i.e. since the meeting) based on feedback from that gendispatch meeting. In short, we summarised consensus as: lawyers should provide specific text that meets the need, with an AD sponsor that allows plenty of opportunity for community comment (though not a WG) as the best way forward. (Important note: we did not hear a perfect way forward, but this was the best way forward of all options suggested). *Should the work be done?* >From the 112 meeting, chairs thought the community was clearly engaged in the topic and keen to see it done but done 'well'. We didn't hear anyone opposed to protecting the IETF or its participants and, as this is what the document aims to do, it has a future somewhere. *How should it be done?* Looking at minutes, we heard from the meeting that people wanted: 1. "the lawyers" to write something, then 2. for that something to be brought back to the IETF for community discussion - rather than have engineers/the IETF community try to write legal documentation. We note that this is the intended approach with draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust, with Brad Biddle as an author from the start. The mechanism for doing this - to ensure enough feedback and discussion - was suggested to be three-fold: 1) updates on the draft's progression to gendispatch (i.e. the draft shared on list recently) with 2) discussion held on a separate list - most recommended was the existing and unused antitrust-policy list [2]. The sponsoring AD will manage the discussion on this antitrust list. 3) putting something on ietf-announce, so that more folks in the community are sighted. We heard opposition to forming a WG to avoid having engineers/the IETF community try to write legal documentation, but we heard a strong need for community input. Hence, this dispatch outcome. Please share your endorsement for this approach, or your alternative dispatch option, to the list. Kirsty & Pete gendispatch co-chairs [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust/ [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/antitrust-policy/ --00000000000012be5e05d6a09631 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi gendispatch,

We'= d like to gauge consensus on-list after the IETF 112 meeting about how best= to dispatch draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust [1], noting it has had=C2= =A0an update (-02) in December (i.e. since the meeting) based on feedback f= rom that gendispatch meeting.

In short, we summarised consensus as:=C2=A0lawyers should provide specific text that meets the= need, with an AD sponsor that allows plenty of opportunity for comm= unity comment (though not a WG) as the best way forward. (Important note: w= e did not hear a perfect way forward, but this was the best way forward of = all options suggested).

Should the w= ork be done?
From the 112 meeting, chairs thought the communi= ty was clearly engaged in the topic and keen to see it done but done 'w= ell'. We didn't hear anyone opposed to protecting the IETF or its p= articipants and, as this is what the document aims to do, it has a future s= omewhere.

How should it be done?
Looking at minutes, we heard from the meeting that people wanted:
1. "the lawyers" to write something, then=C2=A0
2. for that something to be brought back to the IETF for community discuss= ion - rather than have engineers/the IETF community try to write legal docu= mentation.=C2=A0=C2=A0

We note that this is the in= tended approach with draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust, with Brad Biddle = as an author from the start.=C2=A0

The mechanism f= or doing this - to ensure enough feedback and discussion - was suggested to= be three-fold:
1) updates on t= he draft's progression to gendispatch (i.e. the draft shared on list re= cently) with=C2=A0
2) discussio= n held on a separate list - most recommended was the existing and unused an= titrust-policy list [2]. The sponsoring AD will manage the discussion on th= is antitrust list.=C2=A0
3) put= ting something on ietf-announce, so that more folks in the community are si= ghted.=C2=A0

We heard opposition to forming a WG to avoid= having engineers/the IETF community try to write legal documentation, but = we heard a strong need for community input. Hence, this dispatch outcome.

Please share your endorsement for this approach, or your a= lternative dispatch option, to the list.

Kirsty & Pet= e
gendispatch co-chairs

[2]=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/antitrust-policy/">https= ://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/antitrust-policy/


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([2406:e003:1071:1701:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u2sm11826351pfk.15.2022.01.28.17.00.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jan 2022 17:00:57 -0800 (PST) To: Kirsty Paine , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <1f35e133-ec6c-a237-827d-897aabe69489@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 14:00:54 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] dispatching draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 01:01:03 -0000 On 29-Jan-22 05:41, Salz, Rich wrote: > I think you wrote a very good summary and I endorse it. Agreed. Brian From nobody Sat Jan 29 07:36:42 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1058F3A10B6 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:36:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cdt.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aRNl6CfJGgIS for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12D943A10B7 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id y8so7716895qtn.8 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:36:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :cc:references:from:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=adpJfqYx7rwn78r7QFv4ACc9Fla3EOPOlCd9LfI6uHI=; b=b3Y55FCFyhWVNmWOkbnr8raIqMiEsCwuPeQd5pRCog9kj0Iu44UXNNJJ8rANMVFZol oYlbsss5Mvx86iEPhLT2BuHTAsIu2MdSZULIFoeAlh5ZxQLimtk4oIWnhBWbqVt6Rl/+ HPu9rOtZVfGNwCttwfG56qwZNmP32eu/ekgQM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:cc:references:from:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=adpJfqYx7rwn78r7QFv4ACc9Fla3EOPOlCd9LfI6uHI=; b=qG1XHnHBiYAwLJqQEijdF74T1IzFZlzr/TJ7ur3hUy3spUH+xH+4VCaMAQwbkJDszu 5pEY6RkcsBwTXTXGb1MIiP22K5NzQ7BLXEWajzBZrl765Xs2GbsYqwM9AT2Tiy7+3J19 n4UUzCEbkFdB7yw48Gwt5QrGWWkfMnrhxh8YrCA2RcnVratfWi79snL0hFi/HSqK1N7e mzQXPwVzY6Egu1inMguyUrh39UJN5FRt4U9Abk6Y/qU1HD1D6TIQ177iuuCOCiUozqtG eX4iLEm06G67mDkJCfHs5r67ivIAF4Zc9SQN/dt4tVRvMPQTIkOTUGbDba0rXD1M9rOQ uX4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532klsLvJeS7N6NNaACKMFsXomMa0cBoTC2w+Ee+dwSZtsZXpqXH SQLmzw+6qyndDf48YjCSYRcKRbgxScsjgw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/yv4A6DkYLkTs8X92wS6cD+2vWdEfSiEi0CKLscuR2DfYpnB2e5eBjM5JK5O4Krf2oAVZGg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:354:: with SMTP id r20mr9522474qtw.0.1643470594081; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPV6:2601:14d:8300:c190:9c02:1c9c:8175:ae85? ([2601:14d:8300:c190:9c02:1c9c:8175:ae85]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y15sm5428748qko.133.2022.01.29.07.36.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 29 Jan 2022 07:36:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 10:36:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:96.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/96.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Kirsty Paine , "gendispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "gendispatch-chairs@ietf.org" References: <1f35e133-ec6c-a237-827d-897aabe69489@gmail.com> From: Mallory Knodel In-Reply-To: <1f35e133-ec6c-a237-827d-897aabe69489@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] dispatching draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 15:36:41 -0000 On 1/28/22 8:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 29-Jan-22 05:41, Salz, Rich wrote: >> I think you wrote a very good summary and I endorse it. > Agreed. Also agree; couldn't think of a better way to dispatch this work, -M -- Mallory Knodel CTO, Center for Democracy and Technology gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 From nobody Sat Jan 29 09:08:44 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E620E3A150A for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=BNueO720; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=iB8reIRd Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D_nIFqMzQLXS for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A5713A1507 for ; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 09:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 87686 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2022 17:08:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=15683.61f57491.k2201; bh=etjAfQ1ssPB4w9v5ZEe+/QGfSatTpxml9ddHIeBFYVE=; b=BNueO720s0UNyYnf6ENOQFC7PV/byXG0bTijUpwbiE/Suhm/kM6JFiOBycJVrZPWRDzZhTyJOizhq+ZISvV7GVc0UlmgB+PFSXD9i6rzMKFXNnAusXbG8oI32blA0tQXRVSwykPSKLfNg7fyiq+p/sOKkrAN9yS0FwLeC+Oafh0d4cYxeOJM5u4TfHQVCcxWLi1dOOAVOoIOxKrkxDo9Tgk97xshHYvzK6OamZ+NiMri0+fwHFVBarRSiLYWBbPsp6vYv98IAdaozp8utYK4x75p8FY0GuD9x9jKCecOFo9k/QYRHFpXQUWEpkhdcLCw90P1N1ST7zKeWiL3VUbqsw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=15683.61f57491.k2201; bh=etjAfQ1ssPB4w9v5ZEe+/QGfSatTpxml9ddHIeBFYVE=; b=iB8reIRdbNSYPYkgOcSNpn8U81tZQDPWvK21SLx8+wigOpxRn43h3MVcBPI2KASMJyRu6S+h0Un92t1juXCzsoCLNxJjarHdlG1HCgOYUP8yDeCDGrUmI/x1+W7N8pLbk3HecffAItBUDmdt0luE583D8yoWg+5H3DAW/jY/4m30cdJVinihYFXUn8BpDYkd1VSBh9DHClYUsjnS2dw5XugWCSX6eZPv6hLBlDOl+Gp20Ia/8xEtD1VM0oIpb1g6tzyBtyLc3NtKBJRSUA1RN2RwpJmcc3tejZkj2qqDIeHn6yaJGiTdqiBhYY4rPBjUmXLwtjG9yqjEd8RH6pKmVQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 29 Jan 2022 17:08:33 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id F3DAF35B7DC8; Sat, 29 Jan 2022 12:08:32 -0500 (EST) Date: 29 Jan 2022 12:08:32 -0500 Message-Id: <20220129170832.F3DAF35B7DC8@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: gendispatch@ietf.org Cc: kirsty.ietf@gmail.com In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] dispatching draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:08:42 -0000 It appears that Kirsty Paine said: >2) discussion held on a separate list - most recommended was the existing >and unused antitrust-policy list [2]. The sponsoring AD will manage the >discussion on this antitrust list. I went back and looked at the discussions on that list almost exactly a decade ago. It's startling how similar they were to the discussions we've been having about this draft, e.g., what's the actual problem we're solving, what would be realistic remedies. R's, John