From nobody Mon Mar 2 23:43:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEAFC1A1A29 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2015 23:43:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uMAyAWeo35Yf for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2015 23:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB24B1A1A27 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2015 23:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.198]) by omfeda14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D0CED2AC282; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 08:43:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.16]) by omfeda05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AFA49180089; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 08:43:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([169.254.2.231]) by OPEXCLILH05.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([10.114.31.16]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Tue, 3 Mar 2015 08:43:33 +0100 From: To: "hops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-boucadair-transport-protocols-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQVOhDhjcPunCHZk+NdJQlt78GCZ0KYMzQ Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:43:32 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933004918C7E@OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20150302125556.6479.99675.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150302125556.6479.99675.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.12.16.134821 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-boucadair-transport-protocols@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [hops] TR: I-D Action: draft-boucadair-transport-protocols-00.txt X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 07:43:38 -0000 Dear all, We have submitted this I-D that might be of your interest. Comments and text contributions are more than welcome.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 2 mars 2015 13:56 > =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-boucadair-transport-protocols-00.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. >=20 >=20 > Title : On the Need for Transport Protocol Profiles & > Investigating New Evolution Tracks > Authors : Mohamed Boucadair > David Binet > Christian Jacquenet > Luis M. Contreras > Filename : draft-boucadair-transport-protocols-00.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2015-03-02 >=20 > Abstract: > The world of Internet transport protocols is changing, after decades > of TCP and UDP operation. Several proposals have been submitted for > the past years (and counting) to introduce other transport protocols > that aim at reducing the web latency of that of TCP or avoiding the > burden of the various middle-boxes (NATs, firewalls, for one) > encountered along the communication path. Such initiatives, although > not new, are motivated by the complexity of some (non-transparent) > networking functions. >=20 > This document advocates for the definition of transport profiles and > the need to document recommendations for middleboxes, including > Performance Enhancement Proxies (PEPs) behaviors. A collaboration > among the involved players (service providers, vendors) is required > to soften the current complications encountered in the Internet at > large. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-boucadair-transport-protocols/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-transport-protocols-00 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Wed Mar 11 07:39:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A6A1ACE18 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LqnVyZpicB5 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22c.google.com (mail-vc0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDDF31ACDDA for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id kv19so3086155vcb.3 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:39:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1Rlgq0GToEwmfBIn2RYIZdIm/Zn45UMqOZgj4loAoOo=; b=u/PMmKKWbuJ/TnhCNfPZ59cTGUGB9dxC8rTAfDLa0YnusPkqAFxjisXpZ1miGZ+RKe n00svpMJgTntCL8SrWaq/2KeVvh8OHyBZqmvO86K9ms/LCRwMMSt8JupWyo+khe+yerj nzsaaJvevtppBujlrH5psJosGvq8EX7/YwDRzbTUb4cpXn+SX8TdrPevG667G5+zUSH7 X1RaIbgSP/yYJRCvYJFIOyNqUy33W2Op8NUUjfiwVpknUL9IbxehWWHuHJ0O4fNQTZ57 rcw9XZrqF2bHd74Q6h72diiFORp3MJjgWHS62VAbrDWhE8bcOJ36EygoebphjevSIsEM J1yA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.185.228 with SMTP id ff4mr5285101vdc.78.1426084750002; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.186.35 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Mar 2015 07:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:39:09 -0400 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: hops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec548a6b3f18e7f0511043a19 Archived-At: Subject: [hops] refresh: HOPS logistics X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:39:16 -0000 --bcaec548a6b3f18e7f0511043a19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Since a bunch of folks have joined the list since the I posted it before: For folks mapping out their IETF week, the current plan is to hold the BarBoF on Sunday night, March 22, at 21:30. I'm hoping to find a place actually near a bar. The Secretariat is helping and I'll know more once they arrive in Dallas. So, stay tuned for the actual location. --aaron --bcaec548a6b3f18e7f0511043a19 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since a bunch of folks have joined the list since the I po= sted it before: For folks mapping out their IETF week, the current plan is = to hold the BarBoF on Sunday night, March 22, at 21:30.=C2=A0 I'm hopin= g to find a place actually near a bar.=C2=A0 The Secretariat is helping and= I'll know more once they arrive in Dallas.=C2=A0 So, stay tuned for th= e actual location.

--aaron

--bcaec548a6b3f18e7f0511043a19-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 08:18:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738D51A0276 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:18:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfgyL5x9AuBy for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FE201A01A9 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbqf9 with SMTP id qf9so20528636igb.1 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:18:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=LHtT+nGFDehmoERpeFi/fYhb8xtI77XKQ6h79H8bLSI=; b=Jk92WIFc505ThlUwfIkCSwdnZTN0Tyw/UKSJRishLciZWQqWh7nkp07sjlkLSs8Vkq lVVe7SA+S3/LeehY2KOzsvuY/HKFkbP5yxEIBE4VDXtmlLj+YJ+0Wea3TK22qe9juEfq u9cBDV12DdAl08SDaeLUkm4EYWhWkrF8dXxldwamDxD0Hp715h3Rp3ly3/xFcG/J6iXL EFUho+c9c5sIHJqMxjqFeh5TlB9yVs35PF89z2gGgr8Ltu3wxh8cQeA3RPdafSNh6CdH KE6CMRx2NUZ6IWucTUidEUMQiM/GfV/4mY0mnVTbL4JL5n175f5keSiNmJK9mjGUOA7c woJg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.92.65 with SMTP id s1mr4914212icm.16.1426864688014; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.113.196 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:18:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:18:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: hops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba614bfcdf2b790511b9d20e Archived-At: Subject: [hops] Fwd: BarBoF: How Ossified is the Protocol Stack? [HOPS] X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:18:11 -0000 --90e6ba614bfcdf2b790511b9d20e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Folks- I've deliberately held off from online discussion before the barbof on Sunday so we could have some higher-bandwidth f2f discussion first. However, I do suggest that you take a look at the Honda, et al, paper [4] beforehand to get some context. Cheers, --aaron ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Aaron Falk Date: Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 11:21 AM Subject: BarBoF: How Ossified is the Protocol Stack? [HOPS] There has been long term and increasing interest in deploying transport protocols with alternate dynamics and behaviors to TCP and UDP. The IETF has standardized several new protocols including DCCP, UDP-lite, SCTP and several changes to TCP including ECN and LEDBAT. All of these new technologies have resulted in deployment challenges blamed on intentional and unintentional interference by middleboxes such as NATs and firewalls. This has lead to approaches such as building new protocols over UDP or HTTP to make traffic look like something a middlebox would expect. However, both these approaches have shortcomings and a variety of ameliorating engineering approaches are being considered [1], [2], [3]. What is missing is a study with more than anecdotal evidence of the nature of the problem and the portions of the network in which it manifests. One of the best analyses to date is [4] which measures from a very small number of locations: 49 residential, 17 enterprise, and 142 locations in total. In the interest of getting ground-truth data about the nature of the problem, we are organizing an informal effort starting with a meeting (BarBoF) at the March IETF in Dallas to coordinate with network stack, browser, and middlebox vendors, as well as network and service operators, on collecting and reporting statistics about middlebox impact on transport sessions. The objective is to determine a set of measurements that can be made as a side effect of the normal operation of the networking stack, and a reporting format that provides some visibility into the scope and nature of middlebox impact while addressing end-user privacy and business confidentiality concerns. The BarBoF meeting will be Sunday evening (March 22nd). Time & location to be announced on the mailing list [5]. This activity is an outcome of the recent IAB workshop on Stack Evolution in a Middlebox Internet [6]. Please forward to anyone interested in participating. -------- [1] IETF Transport Services Working Group (TAPS) [2] IAB Stack Evolution Program [3] Session Protocol for User Datagrams (SPUD) Prototype [4] M. Honda, Y. Nishida, C. Raiciu, A. Greenhalgh, M. Handley, and H. Tokuda. Is it still possible to extend tcp? In Proc. ACM IMC, 2011. [5] Subscription link to HOPS mailing list. [6] IAB SEMI Workshop --90e6ba614bfcdf2b790511b9d20e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Folks-

I've deliberat= ely held off from online discussion before the barbof on Sunday so we could= have some higher-bandwidth f2f discussion first.=C2=A0 However, I do sugge= st that you take a look at the Honda, et al, paper [4] beforehand to get so= me context.

Cheers,

--aar= on=C2=A0


---------- Forw= arded message ----------
From: Aaron Falk<= /b> <aaron.fal= k@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 11:21 AM
Subjec= t: BarBoF: How Ossified is the Protocol Stack? [HOPS]


There has been long term and increasing interest in deployi= ng transport protocols with alternate dynamics and behaviors to TCP and UDP= . The IETF has standardized several new protocols including DCCP, UDP-lite,= SCTP and several changes to TCP including ECN and LEDBAT. All of these new= technologies have resulted in deployment challenges blamed on intentional = and unintentional interference by middleboxes such as NATs and firewalls. T= his has lead to approaches such as building new protocols over UDP or HTTP = to make traffic look like something a middlebox would expect. However, both= these approaches have shortcomings and a variety of ameliorating engineeri= ng approaches are being considered [1], [2], [3].=C2=A0

What is missing is a study with more than anecdotal evidence of the = nature of the problem and the portions of the network in which it manifests= . One of the best analyses to date is [4] which measures from a very small = number of locations: 49 residential, 17 enterprise, and 142 locations in to= tal. In the interest of getting ground-truth data about the nature of the p= roblem, we are organizing an informal effort starting with a meeting (BarBo= F) at the March IETF in Dallas to coordinate with network stack, browser, a= nd middlebox vendors, as well as network and service operators, on collecti= ng and reporting statistics about middlebox impact on transport sessions. T= he objective is to determine a set of measurements that can be made as a si= de effect of the normal operation of the networking stack, and a reporting = format that provides some visibility into the scope and nature of middlebox= impact while addressing end-user privacy and business confidentiality conc= erns.=C2=A0

The Ba= rBoF meeting will be Sunday evening (March 22nd).=C2=A0 Time & location= to be announced on the mailing list [5].

This activity is an outcome of the recent IAB works= hop on Stack Evolution in a Middlebox Internet [6].=C2=A0

Please forward to anyone interested in participati= ng.


[6]=C2=A0IAB SEMI Workshop=C2=A0


--90e6ba614bfcdf2b790511b9d20e-- From nobody Sat Mar 21 21:33:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D9C1A1A00 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XumB8Jl2XzTP for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com (mail-ie0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDACD1A19FA for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ieclw3 with SMTP id lw3so15386455iec.2 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:33:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=sXx/EVG7XJe+YHANGcmclmqDzJ9JgMlsatM25W+9aMk=; b=gkLoMZr2EGNHAl1x+wPoDTT2odEWq9TBKCDpv5WCK3Tys+ffVZ7boBXvGe18LG5UbX z1HWlkZLwiJmWaTMsKHRA6uEQ9DaC1sznbocwXnDjmRsYZVMIjPey2WQsQ2nn2i1sGp7 sEl62ZjbK9jAHJVcy8bxgMdWa+K4W8ze9n8HM4wFv08+7DiOlSTYGQgmUMntjy7YvAes 646g3n9ToVrKQa775+57VG+CcvnB0y/FG91QkzuK3udu3UoV+Ixx412naWxCQbgICFKs GfH/ePQaQaV8NmCK84+V3+url1yYiV4E8XIvzkHlckrK8f7LboCXAGgq5HPiPKbfemGj oLZQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.31.14 with SMTP id f14mr118133818iof.28.1426998789208; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.113.196 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 00:33:09 -0400 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: hops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141c3c4ed01f00511d90b29 Archived-At: Subject: [hops] Details for HOPS BarBoF X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 04:33:11 -0000 --001a1141c3c4ed01f00511d90b29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Time: 9:30pm Date: Sunday, March 22 Location: Venetian Room The Venetian Room is around the corner from the hotel bar so, if you like, please pick up an adult beverage before attending. Regards, --aaron --001a1141c3c4ed01f00511d90b29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Time: 9:30pm
Date: Sunday, March 22
Location: = Venetian Room

The Venetian Room is around the corn= er from the hotel bar so, if you like, please pick up an adult beverage bef= ore attending.

Regards,

=
--aaron
--001a1141c3c4ed01f00511d90b29-- From michio@netapp.com Sun Mar 22 19:16:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C631A8766 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:16:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9xOAPo3nfcqr for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx143.netapp.com (mx143.netapp.com [216.240.21.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3921B1A1A59 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,449,1422950400"; d="scan'208";a="31046023" Received: from hioexcmbx01-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.122.105.34]) by mx143-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 22 Mar 2015 19:11:20 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX08-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.41) by hioexcmbx01-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.29; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:11:20 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX08-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx08-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::c55f:997c:5201:2a2c%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0995.031; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 19:11:20 -0700 From: "Honda, Michio" To: "hops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: A related paper and code to HOPS Thread-Index: AQHQZQ6n9AljLzGWG06vZ5I0m+scmQ== Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 02:11:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.120.60.36] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6458F9974B7A794CAC6786CC97BE3DDD@hq.netapp.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Felipe Huici , Costin Raiciu , Luigi Rizzo Subject: [hops] A related paper and code to HOPS X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 02:22:25 -0000 Hi,=20 Let me introduce our work that focuses on a related problem with the protoc= ol stack evolution. Our paper in the following link describes how protocol stacks have evolved = and a possible solution for incremental deployment of user-space protocol s= tacks. http://www.sigcomm.org/sites/default/files/ccr/papers/2014/April/0000000-00= 00006.pdf In the paper we propose a kernel module which we call MultiStack in order t= o run both in-kernel and user-space protocol stacks simultaneously on a NIC= . The code is now publicly available: https://github.com/cnplab/multistack Cheers, - Michio= From nobody Sun Mar 22 21:55:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E891A87D0 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:55:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLAdsSn4x6SE for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870841A03A5 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:67c:370:136:6c42:429b:250d:ec1b] (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:370:136:6c42:429b:250d:ec1b]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C34461A01AC for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:55:52 +0100 (CET) From: Brian Trammell X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_165C3756-937D-4B34-88A5-8068735B40C7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:55:51 -0500 Message-Id: <5CFF11D0-FB09-4FB9-B567-B0D46AB8414F@trammell.ch> To: hops@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2070.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2070.6) Archived-At: Subject: [hops] A Middlebox-Cooperative TCP for a non end-to-end Internet X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 04:55:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_165C3756-937D-4B34-88A5-8068735B40C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, all, For an example of aggregate (non-identified) information that (IMO) = would be useful for guiding protocol design (especially workaround = design), see table 8 in = http://rbeverly.net/research/papers/hiccups-sigcomm14.pdf -- the stack = and tools described are at http://www.cmand.org/hiccups/ Cheers, Brian --Apple-Mail=_165C3756-937D-4B34-88A5-8068735B40C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVD5zYAAoJENt3nsOmbNJclsYH/10ja+3kU/P03J2iDQmXfH2V 8pExmp44WcOt+hrT9p4RBRIKAVaDSwOEc+hcGFfgBcAkuaMv0zs7Mz+PIutdCzO9 2Rdou1ISdr0hiwKS+W2GG7zAAE3d0ZfUEwLEF1/9sPejff5UZBc45Ju3squHSGo2 c4wIXypmf3X0LQUHRnHHh+K/87Xc5yOuo/yYyd2X7C/Lc9Lvwd32jAcMWuKMLjaQ ij0PooerRYGtNgUhAyc6VQCZEt6MoQCWuK2W78Cj9AK+FJFf8l7hWYcUZZuwNp93 XmLYJo17oBLrPhuiG0aN96ewiuZlIHwyAgvRXB6e4oipOgEJGGVo3wLVYOfJPY8= =4adW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_165C3756-937D-4B34-88A5-8068735B40C7-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 05:29:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016661A88EA for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:29:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.068 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.068 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cs9ummY_fQpL for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hubrelay-rd.bt.com (hubrelay-rd.bt.com [62.239.224.98]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 031061A88E3 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EVMHR01-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net (193.113.108.40) by EVMHR65-UKRD.bt.com (10.187.101.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:29:47 +0000 Received: from EPHR01-UKIP.domain1.systemhost.net (147.149.196.177) by EVMHR01-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net (193.113.108.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.348.2; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:29:44 +0000 Received: from bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (132.146.168.158) by EPHR01-UKIP.domain1.systemhost.net (147.149.196.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.181.6; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:29:43 +0000 Received: from BTP075694.jungle.bt.co.uk ([10.111.178.37]) by bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk (8.13.5/8.12.8) with ESMTP id t2NCSxsp013337 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:29:14 GMT Message-ID: <201503231229.t2NCSxsp013337@bagheera.jungle.bt.co.uk> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 03:45:19 +0000 To: From: Bob Briscoe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 132.146.168.158 Archived-At: Subject: [hops] Types of access network where traversal is problematic X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:29:51 -0000 HOPSters, To illustrate that measuring fixed (residential broadband and hosted) sites would give an optimistic view, here's a visualisation of part of the problem by type of access network, using the data set Michio Honda made available to complement his excellent paper. It's on slide 2 here: Or other formats and background links via here: Bob ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe, BT From nobody Mon Mar 23 06:46:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AC01A8A84 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:46:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p3xTFY4PaSiz for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (jazz.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF4261A8A76 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h194.viagenie.ca (h194.viagenie.ca [206.123.31.194]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 750D1403CD; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2070.6\)) From: Marc Blanchet In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:46:08 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6143D92E-2309-414C-B401-511B03C24F33@viagenie.ca> References: To: Aaron Falk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2070.6) Archived-At: Cc: hops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [hops] Details for HOPS BarBoF X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:46:10 -0000 hello, I finally was not able to attend, but really interested in the topic. = Any minutes? outcomes? ... Marc. > Le 2015-03-21 =C3=A0 23:33, Aaron Falk a =C3=A9cr= it : >=20 > Time: 9:30pm > Date: Sunday, March 22 > Location: Venetian Room >=20 > The Venetian Room is around the corner from the hotel bar so, if you = like, please pick up an adult beverage before attending. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > --aaron > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops From nobody Mon Mar 23 08:02:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7941A8F3A for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ncVMqMKKNiR3 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x229.google.com (mail-ie0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 740131A8F50 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ieclw3 with SMTP id lw3so37665702iec.2 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:02:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CZO/zAlndC4Gg4kuNpLB0rKAyEOSoiamc3J90qIvFHc=; b=NcouFd7GzahcO+Fc60B4V4RuvgZlSkrY7EMJR/5ogwJNV53yMWTCLbySFDGXJ771A9 5PeRvqgt7Eudf4cUUjZU05Qm+8rjDLwrHauELdWa3PVKPaOgIqDQbfmeZU3pOZ2YJ19n B6f8vDnBBi2tsaralisS15y0N2sM2rGBkxYOwRyz3czRqolXqbJyH0Mc+n4u9IwWm55d K/NvQ6yvVmUIEbszDJlOMq7SVEUrP+ls5f7VQzsq3LLwHmnQc9cYt1Vjyxwx2wqNFXep yYyDktBWW86RdbpTsS5K4eT1eiNUnCfJJtdGkBEi6Ro8qAy8P0n+2pLtT8tQk8vZoPqT D9oQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.149.210 with SMTP id x201mr69729802iod.33.1427122946792; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.113.196 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:02:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6143D92E-2309-414C-B401-511B03C24F33@viagenie.ca> References: <6143D92E-2309-414C-B401-511B03C24F33@viagenie.ca> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:02:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: Marc Blanchet Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140fe664b86400511f5f48d Archived-At: Cc: hops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [hops] Details for HOPS BarBoF X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:02:49 -0000 --001a1140fe664b86400511f5f48d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marc- I'm going to write up a summary in the next day or so. Short version: there was lots of interest and there appears to be some low hanging fruit in terms of data that exists today or is easily collected. --aaron On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Marc Blanchet wrote: > hello, > I finally was not able to attend, but really interested in the topic. An= y > minutes? outcomes? ... > > Marc. > > > Le 2015-03-21 =C3=A0 23:33, Aaron Falk a =C3=A9c= rit : > > > > Time: 9:30pm > > Date: Sunday, March 22 > > Location: Venetian Room > > > > The Venetian Room is around the corner from the hotel bar so, if you > like, please pick up an adult beverage before attending. > > > > Regards, > > > > --aaron > > _______________________________________________ > > hops mailing list > > hops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > > --001a1140fe664b86400511f5f48d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Marc-

I'm going to write up a su= mmary in the next day or so.=C2=A0 Short version: there was lots of interes= t and there appears to be some low hanging fruit in terms of data that exis= ts today or is easily collected.

--aaron

On Mon, Mar 23,= 2015 at 9:46 AM, Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>= wrote:
hello,
=C2=A0I finally was not able to attend, but really interested in the topic.= Any minutes? outcomes? ...

Marc.

> Le 2015-03-21 =C3=A0 23:33, Aaron Falk <aaron.falk@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Time: 9:30pm
> Date: Sunday, March 22
> Location: Venetian Room
>
> The Venetian Room is around the corner from the hotel bar so, if you l= ike, please pick up an adult beverage before attending.
>
> Regards,
>
> --aaron
> _______________________________________________
> hops mailing list
> hops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops


--001a1140fe664b86400511f5f48d-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 10:51:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE58C1ACEFF for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:51:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oMl2Gsaw0R_n for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CDE51ACED2 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iecvj10 with SMTP id vj10so41983601iec.0 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=gRNxz1xNBXylhHvf42MY8NiVmOjX1jbFPrEiDx1fdMo=; b=Di3F7XFpDW9ZfSBqxgXJze107ptZpdiBmH4HEAFKCsSl2W5/5ylo5GVOGSW4HJtyUB s7LE0M70roiqZjt6PZffdNIu7a3GzIjpH7BeOVuYUtx86mBMA0TPZBdR305LTDHydGYL ovD3o0oW1YqPxPJeOMXplmqQbFQuCCT8G/NAHfwwH+j4evi7Xmv5IsAerXcaUhrQr+q5 P7E4qgGGnfBMkIJaKJBhdK/WkA5M5BqPDWB/nqa8WYzMMtEfR+VUO3N4Zc3yhWESuWQl dig9EwQGToTEisj2tvtReegkNTJDhnxXHcPo2swujeYFzXo97UmVFJevpEJ3kmK7zMS5 Zu7A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.149.210 with SMTP id x201mr468438iod.33.1427133109532; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.113.196 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:51:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: hops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140fe660a80520511f85230 Archived-At: Subject: [hops] HOPS bar bof notes X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:51:54 -0000 --001a1140fe660a80520511f85230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the interest of getting input from folks while their memories are fresh, I'm sending these out less polished than would be ideal. Please send comments to the list. --aaron ----------------------------------------------------- March 23, 2015 - IETF-92 - Dallas *Background* As the IETF considers how to approach the difficulties faced in deploying new or extended transport protocols, it seems the discussion would be helped by more data. Specifically, observations of network behavior from the perspective of clients on a range of network types including mobile, wifi, enterprise, residential in a wide range of geographic locations. The hypothesis is that there is some clustering of behaviors that restrict protocol transparency which could assist protocol developers, implementors, and operators. A specific vision was put on the table of instrumented browsers and mobile OSs that would actively probe for a range of protocol transparency and report it in a common and anonymized fashion to permit aggregation across measurements and inform interested stakeholders. The objective of the meeting was to expand on the idea above, look for interest and think about how to move forward. There was not expectation that an IETF or IRTF activity would be a goal. Action items are identified below by *AI*. Measurements could inform discussions on network neutrality, creating funding opportunities to support work in this area. Regulators are interested in getting data on QoS and pay to do this because there is public interest. Some challenges mentioned include the effort to instrument clients for active measurement, privacy issues, data sharing policies. Below the highlights of the meeting are summarized with attribution where possible. Please send amplifications and corrections to hops@ietf.org. Thanks to Mirja K=C3=BChlewind for taking notes. *Passive data collection* - Rich Barnes: people that own stacks can tell what would be easy or hard to collect; (and here is what we collecting (Jana)) - Mirja: might be to much effort; how could we reduce this effort? - Aaron: other thing is to clearly articulate what we want to get - Jana: the data is already there; I=E2=80=99m interested in exposing ex= isting data (instead of handling each data request separately). Need to talk internally. - Christian Huitema: agree better to provide data in the structure that is already there that to get caught up in stating measurement needs. - Jana: collected data provides different angles that are all valuable: modifiying server or just clients but a lot deployment work for active measurement; but passive is done by browser vendors and data can already= be used to answers some questions; difference in quality of data - Aaron: would be useful to know what is collected passively by e.g. Google because others (e.g., Akamai) might be able to collect the comparable data; would be useful to just expose what data is collected a= s first step - *AI:* Jana will figure out what data are available (at browser vendors/measurement platforms) *Active data collection* - Rich Barnes: we know that the data we have on hand is not all the data we want; need to first look at what we got and how expensive it is to bu= ild what we want - Dave Thaler: agree, there is a cost to make things available: instrument code; move data; publish data. It=E2=80=99s better to know so= oner what you want to make visible. One possible output is to capture what people would like to know to starting working on this now. - Brian Trammell: it=E2=80=99s no secret what we want. Look at the tabl= es from the Honda and Hicups papers and collect that data for the whole Internet= ; also difference between UPD and TCP in connectivity and performance (for spud) - - AI: Brian to send pointer to the Hicups paper on hops list - *AI:* Brian will collect (wish) list of what data people would like to have *Localization:* - David (Apple): seems like you need IP addresses but privacy is an issu= e - Aaron: a possible output of this activity could be a test set that operators & vendors could use to verify transparency. - Lee Howard (TWC): would like to see numbers broken down to ASN level to know that my network is broken because I might have never thought abo= ut testing myself -> testset would be useful (e.g. using a platform like lm= ap) *Aggregated stats* - General agreement that aggregated statistics can be very useful and remove privacy concerns - Brian: just getting numbers on how bad the impairment is would be useful. Eg., how often does a problem appear? - Jana: needed for informing design compromises and infrastructure to ask these question (histograms) *Test infrastructure* - Colin (RIPE Atlas): have large active measurement structure; could help to standardize what measurements need to be made. - Bob Briscoe: Honda paper shows data of different networks but RIPE might only get limited scope (e.g., no mobile) - Google MLABs also mentioned - Dave P.: Akamai does a lot of measurement (see http://www.stateoftheinternet.com/), can do more - *AI:* group to share on the list what measurement (platforms) exists and what capabilities they have *Sharing data* - Instead of describing tests, define an observatory where people can store data as they have them -> a wiki - Brian: have been many tries to improve data sharing e.g. DatCat but problem is metadata and effort to maintain metadata *Fuzz testing for middleboxes* - Dave Plonka: could be useful but may also be more terrifying than reality since it will test things that don=E2=80=99t occur in the wild. - Suresh: interop lab testing does give no info about what happens in the internet - Jana: fuzz testing has been explored to a very low extend but time is important; action item might be to get data exposed - Stuart: fuzzing is difficult because option are infinite what can be done and whats valid so it mist be done manually by a human --001a1140fe660a80520511f85230 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the interest of getting input from folks while the= ir memories are fresh, I'm sending these out less polished than would b= e ideal.=C2=A0 Please send comments to the list.

-= -aaron
-----------------------------------------------------

March 23, 2015 - IETF-92 - Dallas

Background

As the IETF considers how t= o approach the difficulties faced in deploying new or extended=C2=A0transpo= rt protocols, it=C2=A0seems the discussion would be helped by more data.=C2= =A0 Specifically, observations of network behavior from the perspective of = clients on a range of=C2=A0network types including mobile, wifi, enterprise= , residential in a wide range of geographic locations.=C2=A0 The hypothesis= is that there is some clustering of behaviors that restrict protocol trans= parency=C2=A0which could assist protocol developers, implementors, and oper= ators.=C2=A0 A=C2=A0specific vision was put on the table of instrumented br= owsers and mobile OSs=C2=A0that would actively probe for a range of protoco= l transparency and report it in a common and=C2=A0anonymized=C2=A0fashion t= o permit aggregation across measurements and inform interested stakeholders= .

The objective of the meeting was to expand on th= e=C2=A0idea above, look for interest and think about how to move forward.= =C2=A0 There was not expectation that an IETF or IRTF activity would be a g= oal.=C2=A0 Action items are identified below by AI.

Measurements could inform=C2=A0discussions on network neutrality, = creating funding opportunities to support work in this area.=C2=A0=C2=A0Reg= ulators are interested in getting data on QoS and pay to do this because th= ere is public interest.

Some challenges mentioned include the effort to instrument clients for= active measurement, privacy issues, data sharing policies. =C2=A0

Below the highlights of the meeting are summarized with at= tribution where possible.=C2=A0 Please send amplifications and corrections = to hops@ietf.org.=C2=A0 Thanks to Mirj= a K=C3=BChlewind for taking notes.

Passive data= collection
  • Rich Barnes: people that own stacks can tell w= hat would be easy or hard to collect; (and here is what we collecting (Jana= ))
  • Mirja: might be to much effort; how could we reduce this effort?=
  • Aaron: other thing is to clearly articulate what we want to get
  • Jana: the data is already there; I=E2=80=99m interested in exposing e= xisting data (instead of handling each data request separately).=C2=A0 Need= to talk internally.
  • Christian Huitema: agree better to provide dat= a in the structure that is already there that to get caught up in stating m= easurement needs.
  • Jana: collected data provides=C2=A0different angl= es that are all valuable: modifiying server or just clients but a lot deplo= yment work for active measurement; but passive is done by browser vendors a= nd data can already be used to answers some questions; difference in qualit= y of data
  • Aaron: would be useful to know what is collected passivel= y by e.g. Google because others (e.g., Akamai) might be able to collect the= comparable data; would be useful to just expose what data is collected as = first step
  • AI:=C2=A0Jana will figure out what data are avail= able (at browser vendors/measurement platforms)

Active data collection
  • Rich Barnes: we know that the data we have on hand is not=C2=A0all= =C2=A0the data we want; need to first look at what we got and how expensive= it is to build what we want
  • Dave Thaler: agree, there is a=C2=A0co= st to make things available: instrument code; move data; publish data. It= =E2=80=99s better to know sooner what you want to make visible. One=C2=A0po= ssible output is to capture=C2=A0what people would like to know to starting= working on this now.
  • Brian Trammell: it=E2=80=99s no=C2=A0secret w= hat we want.=C2=A0 Look at=C2=A0the tables from the Honda and Hicups papers= and collect that data for the whole Internet; also difference between UPD = and TCP in connectivity and performance (for spud)=C2=A0
    • AI:=C2=A0Brian to send pointer to th= e Hicups paper on hops list
  • AI: Brian will collect= (wish) list of what data people would like to have

Localization:
  • David (Apple): seems = like=C2=A0you need IP addresses but privacy is an issue
  • Aaron: a po= ssible output of this activity could be a test set that operators & ven= dors could use to verify transparency.
  • Lee Howard (TWC):=C2=A0would= like to see numbers broken down to ASN level to know that my network is br= oken because I might have never thought about testing myself -> testset = would be useful (e.g. using a platform like lmap)

<= div>Aggregated stats
  • General agreement that aggregated = statistics can be very useful and remove privacy concerns
  • Brian: ju= st getting numbers on how bad the impairment is would be useful.=C2=A0 Eg.,= how often does a problem appear?
  • Jana: needed for informing design= compromises and infrastructure to ask these question (histograms)


    • Test infrastructure
    <= ul>
  • Colin (RIPE=C2=A0Atlas): have large active measurement structure; co= uld help to=C2=A0standardize what measurements need to be made.
  • Bob= Briscoe: Honda paper shows data of different networks but RIPE=C2=A0might = only get limited scope (e.g., no mobile)
  • Google MLABs also mentione= d
  • Dave P.:=C2=A0Akamai does a lot of measurement (see http://www.stateoftheinternet.com/), = can do more
  • AI: group to=C2=A0share on the list what measure= ment (platforms) exists and what capabilities they have

Sharing data
  • Inste= ad of describing tests, define an observatory where people can store data a= s they have them -> a wiki
  • Brian: have been many tries to improv= e data sharing e.g. DatCat but problem is metadata and effort to maintain m= etadata

Fuzz testing for middleboxes
  • Dave Pl= onka: could be useful but may also be=C2=A0more terrifying than reality sin= ce it will test things that don=E2=80=99t occur in the wild.
  • Suresh= : interop lab testing does give no info about what happens in the internet<= /li>
  • Jana:=C2=A0fuzz testing has been explored to a very low extend but = time is important; action item might be to get data exposed
  • Stuart:= fuzzing is difficult because option are infinite what can be done and what= s valid so it mist be done manually by a human


--001a1140fe660a80520511f85230-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 16:03:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144DD1A0111 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 16:03:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FEysSPlN7mHt for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 16:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 093F11A00FE for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2015 16:03:00 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79a46d0000006b4-bb-55109ba3c560 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C1.37.01716.3AB90155; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 00:02:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB303.ericsson.se ([169.254.3.196]) by ESESSHC002.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 00:02:58 +0100 From: Szilveszter Nadas To: "hops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Middlebox on your device Thread-Index: AdBlu73as0T2GeDBSbGOaK8PQbtMig== Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 23:02:58 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EA4C43BE752A194597B002779DF69BAE23CC03D3ESESSMB303erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7i2QKhBv2bxCy+H9zD7MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujN71xQUzpSv6Xt1jbGD8Id7FyMkhIWAisev5DjYIW0ziwr31 QDYXh5DAEUaJ31fXM0I4SxglFj24ywRSxSZgIdGwcjNYh4iAssT7HRtYQGxhAUWJ46vXMELE 1SQWP/vNBGHrSby5tgIsziKgKvHn1R2gOAcHr4CvxPX70iBhRqDF30+tAStnFhCXuPVkPhPE QQISS/acZ4awRSVePv7HCmErSaw9vJ0Foj5fou3ud7BzeAUEJU7OfMIygVFoFpJRs5CUzUJS BhHXkViw+xMbhK0tsWzha2YY+8yBx0zI4gsY2VcxihanFhfnphsZ66UWZSYXF+fn6eWllmxi BEbEwS2/dXcwrn7teIhRgINRiYd3QyN/qBBrYllxZe4hRmkOFiVxXjvjQyFCAumJJanZqakF qUXxRaU5qcWHGJk4OKUaGD0W3Sp7v/66ucziOWvurJpnzpBi11uwS/6X8NfQicJye1bpLZNw 0331S//yvw1T1107u7ZANfHvc3bxVWzzSz7/Ec2bJBCiuyvh4MNjXBd533K9OOqziWHX2v6I XOOTvEfnqOnfzdTbHutxWk1tzimf6MWnGabsyZohPiVMKO/mmUPlP6rYOoKVWIozEg21mIuK EwFWQw3oaQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [hops] Middlebox on your device X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 23:03:03 -0000 --_000_EA4C43BE752A194597B002779DF69BAE23CC03D3ESESSMB303erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, What if the "middlebox" blocking some transport feature/field is on the end= -user device, e.g. a firewall software? Maybe saying the obvious here, just= wanted to mention that sometimes it might not be the ISP the one to blame.= Maybe it is not even important who to blame. Probably/hopefully firewall s= oftware is easier to update though, but it can have quite an effect on the = measurement results. (slightly related to this thread: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/spud= /current/msg00028.html) Cheers, Sz. --_000_EA4C43BE752A194597B002779DF69BAE23CC03D3ESESSMB303erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

What if the “middlebox” blocking some tr= ansport feature/field is on the end-user device, e.g. a firewall software? = Maybe saying the obvious here, just wanted to mention that sometimes it mig= ht not be the ISP the one to blame. Maybe it is not even important who to blame. Probably/hopefully firewall software is e= asier to update though, but it can have quite an effect on the measurement = results.

 

(slightly related to this thread: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/spud/current/msg00028.html) <= /o:p>

 

Cheers,

Sz.

--_000_EA4C43BE752A194597B002779DF69BAE23CC03D3ESESSMB303erics_-- From nobody Tue Mar 24 02:02:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516B91B2D92 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 02:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VlspbjKy06mp for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 02:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx142.netapp.com (mx142.netapp.com [216.240.21.19]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5D9F1B2D8E for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 02:02:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,457,1422950400"; d="scan'208";a="30696255" Received: from hioexcmbx06-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.122.105.39]) by mx142-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 24 Mar 2015 01:57:02 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX08-PRD.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.41) by hioexcmbx06-prd.hq.netapp.com (10.122.105.39) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.29; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 01:57:02 -0700 Received: from HIOEXCMBX08-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([::1]) by hioexcmbx08-prd.hq.netapp.com ([fe80::c55f:997c:5201:2a2c%21]) with mapi id 15.00.0995.031; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 01:57:02 -0700 From: "Honda, Michio" To: Szilveszter Nadas Thread-Topic: [hops] Middlebox on your device Thread-Index: AdBlu73as0T2GeDBSbGOaK8PQbtMigAj2xWA Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:57:01 +0000 Message-ID: <574B9864-4A05-48AC-920C-331C392E60B7@netapp.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.122.56.79] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "hops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [hops] Middlebox on your device X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:02:04 -0000 SW4gYWRkaXRpb24gdG8gdGhvc2Ugc29mdHdhcmUgeW91IHNob3VsZCBiZSBhIGJpdCBjYXJlZnVs IGFib3V0IE5JQ3MuDQpGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgVFNPIGNvcGllcyBvcHRpb25zIGluIHRoZSBvcmln aW5hbCBiaWcgc2VnbWVudCBpbnRvIGFsbCB0aGUgc3BsaXQgc2VnbWVudHMsIGFuZCBMUk8gb25s eSBhZ2dyZWdhdGVzIHBhY2tldHMgdGhhdCBkbyBub3QgYWNjb21wYW55IG9wdGlvbnMgKGV4Y2Vw dCBmb3IgVGltZXN0YW1wcykNCk91ciBwYXBlciAoaHR0cDovL2NvbmZlcmVuY2VzLnNpZ2NvbW0u b3JnL2ltYy8yMDExL2RvY3MvcDE4MS5wZGYpIHNob3dzIHRoaXMgYmVoYXZpb3Igb24gc29tZSBO SUNzLg0KDQpJdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgbm90ZWQgdGhhdCB3aGV0aGVyIHBhY2tldHMgYXJlIGFmZmVj dGVkIGJ5IE5JQ3Mgb3Igbm90IGFsc28gZGVwZW5kcyBvbiBob3cgd2UgZ2VuZXJhdGUgYW5kIHJl Y2VpdmUgcGFja2V0cy4NCkZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBpZiB3ZSBnZW5lcmF0ZSBhbmQgcmVjZWl2ZSBy YXcgcGFja2V0cyB1c2luZyBCUEYgb3IgbmV0bWFwLCB0aG9zZSBwYWNrZXRzIHdpbGwgbm90IGJl IGFmZmVjdGVkLg0KSG93ZXZlciwgSSBoYXZlIG5vIGlkZWEgaWYgd2UgZG8gc28gdXNpbmcgcmF3 IHNvY2tldHMgYW5kIEFGX1BBQ0tFVCwgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGV5IGxldCBjZXJ0YWluIGxldmVsIG9m IHBhY2tldCBwcm9jZXNzaW5nLCBzdWNoIGFzIGNoZWNrc3VtIGNhbGN1bGF0aW9uIHRvIG9jY3Vy IGluIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIHN0YWNrLg0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQotIE1pY2hpbw0KDQo+IE9uIE1hciAy NCwgMjAxNSwgYXQgMDA6MDIsIFN6aWx2ZXN6dGVyIE5hZGFzIDxTemlsdmVzenRlci5OYWRhc0Bl cmljc3Nvbi5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gSGksDQo+ICANCj4gV2hhdCBpZiB0aGUg4oCcbWlk ZGxlYm944oCdIGJsb2NraW5nIHNvbWUgdHJhbnNwb3J0IGZlYXR1cmUvZmllbGQgaXMgb24gdGhl IGVuZC11c2VyIGRldmljZSwgZS5nLiBhIGZpcmV3YWxsIHNvZnR3YXJlPyBNYXliZSBzYXlpbmcg dGhlIG9idmlvdXMgaGVyZSwganVzdCB3YW50ZWQgdG8gbWVudGlvbiB0aGF0IHNvbWV0aW1lcyBp dCBtaWdodCBub3QgYmUgdGhlIElTUCB0aGUgb25lIHRvIGJsYW1lLiBNYXliZSBpdCBpcyBub3Qg ZXZlbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgd2hvIHRvIGJsYW1lLiBQcm9iYWJseS9ob3BlZnVsbHkgZmlyZXdhbGwg c29mdHdhcmUgaXMgZWFzaWVyIHRvIHVwZGF0ZSB0aG91Z2gsIGJ1dCBpdCBjYW4gaGF2ZSBxdWl0 ZSBhbiBlZmZlY3Qgb24gdGhlIG1lYXN1cmVtZW50IHJlc3VsdHMuDQo+ICANCj4gKHNsaWdodGx5 IHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQ6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbC1hcmNoaXZl L3dlYi9zcHVkL2N1cnJlbnQvbXNnMDAwMjguaHRtbCkgDQo+ICANCj4gQ2hlZXJzLA0KPiBTei4N Cj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gaG9w cyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaG9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2hvcHMNCg0K