From nobody Mon Nov 9 11:43:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FB31B8273 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bhmz1kzGeAlv for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x233.google.com (mail-ig0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 179DF1B8270 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by igl9 with SMTP id 9so38367178igl.0 for ; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 11:43:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+gpTHi5risjmj39Ua/7YCicjfyTCHGUT/fX2pZDWeko=; b=FcBzrL5zRl3TYkMoGMtQS2WJ0E/YJCOZH/xHIxPEJm8mtZ99nio9yvQNJWqwKxMrKh SpIidjMdEVpwTbsseYpHMxG6GuU/Gq0Ox2+HLcuRDMCy2lnhvDqmiXM3/pM24mXGjRlZ AskQGqvRthsXo+p9RpsxFayJuAdonLxX9y6Rti0kj6zb3etg4rLHgFJO2jUfnGPS8WRW IwltQ7VA/NKFJuzkPAJiCt1aNKEqSb/RH6Vs57TmNe5MpTEaDOVt6ryGrJN5fezisOum sC763QOR7nOvzv4GY7TiwKhsWpWtRyIusItYONkNMANHflikDdNDhETi8tedJppPcMFv XaBA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.40.67 with SMTP id v3mr230175igk.30.1447098203498; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 11:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.107.178.129 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:43:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:43:23 -0800 Message-ID: From: Stephen Strowes To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122f7f65ff081052420ce7c Archived-At: Cc: Brian Trammell , hops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [hops] Draft agenda X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 19:43:25 -0000 --089e0122f7f65ff081052420ce7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The datatracker link worked during the meeting, but now points to the RMCAT agenda! Error in archiving? S. On 17 October 2015 at 02:03, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind < mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote: > Hi all, > > We=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/94/agenda/hopsrg/ > > We believe that this already looks like an interesting meeting! Hopefully > to you as well! > > However, there is still a little time left on the agenda. Pretty sure tha= t > we will be able to use this time for discussions on next steps. But if > there are more people who=E2=80=99d like to present their work/data on mi= ddlebox > impairments, we can probably find time. So just let us know, if you have > something else! > > Otherwise, see you in Yokohama! > Brian & Mirja > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > --089e0122f7f65ff081052420ce7c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

The datatracker link worked during = the meeting, but now points to the RMCAT agenda! Error in archiving?
<= div>
S.

=
On 17 October 2015 at 02:03, Mirja K=C3=BChl= ewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:=
Hi all,

We=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/94/agenda= /hopsrg/

We believe that this already looks like an interesting meeting! Hopefully t= o you as well!

However, there is still a little time left on the agenda. Pretty sure that = we will be able to use this time for discussions on next steps. But if ther= e are more people who=E2=80=99d like to present their work/data on middlebo= x impairments, we can probably find time. So just let us know, if you have = something else!

Otherwise, see you in Yokohama!
Brian & Mirja
_______________________________________________
hops mailing list
hops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops

--089e0122f7f65ff081052420ce7c-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 02:27:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771C91A90EC for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 02:27:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfWEazxprO58 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 02:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF551A90E9 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 02:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.27.109] (dynamic-94-247-222-033.catv.glattnet.ch [94.247.222.33]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B5E751A030D; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:26:40 +0100 (CET) From: Brian Trammell X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4F523D31-A042-40F1-A301-E223B95304B0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:26:39 +0100 Message-Id: <60DFE4F9-0AEF-4781-A375-4C227FD9AAC7@trammell.ch> To: hops@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Subject: [hops] draft HOPS(P)RG minutes available X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:27:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4F523D31-A042-40F1-A301-E223B95304B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, all, The draft minutes of the HOPS Proposed RG meeting on 2 November in = Yokohama are now available at = https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/minutes/minutes-94-hopsrg Please let me know of any corrections you may have. Thanks, cheers, Brian (as HOPS proposed RG chair) --Apple-Mail=_4F523D31-A042-40F1-A301-E223B95304B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWRbrgAAoJEIoSt78L6kaj+yMP/jDVDBCOLMSpYQWIDHvvioE7 i0e4OQBAV8pNGgWFMJbjyXVZ4qRb+SoX6kopLxQuXuQS9vs155coPMzOAxpUq6Rs U91TO9XdwJz5Q8x1ZpvdSD48b2fPvj5WqF8NfnLqthUsi97ISr0hx3FQT6rgkLts ovnDryfKynaaeRzbkcHkpvr4jrn4TkSOQVlXNHSApUzVnkLxFCb72aNk32vb+clV hcW3CeXTWp5BEp/oLKl8v/CxO0QRS5ziGkEjvCZvzLZVjnMgnvSKP7vTdjIid2H6 BAEGKfhT97n4qGLcW/sYiMobi6XuXFfxeOtWyBpXc60+ICWCjTc7+G2nYFUuQTA1 QI9X2u7px/SaiaFr+Dg2OaTfDDfDqqeanwpGDmU/9eQIDd8qg2htHpUoBEe4wBIM TWH9tchHzu8amseulVlsE5FCB6rysK5Gave+jwUmHkAWYJwdyR8wt8bQdPSb3kWA muDGkaiE/btS9t823z/Z6NOUO8jpIKrvqWRrnA6SHk5hsqh5cykwc2Sopu3IXW5U kaBZJTh3iQeVJ9L2tAIeKfxouXz5bPZh/PwA6Qm3rK4FqD93h9ypGMpemzqYuaMu F0ANY2xBxFTJo/1sqV0B/IwwGrujvxNgpxnePsu32ytuRsheRXuFL0LgZt77UiMG CxcN79gDGaUmNhwaivYb =2c9x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4F523D31-A042-40F1-A301-E223B95304B0-- From nobody Thu Nov 26 03:35:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849A91A039F for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 03:35:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yI_oBZO3erff for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 03:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389541A03A0 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 03:35:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nb-10604.ethz.ch (nb-10604.ethz.ch [82.130.102.91]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 70F401A021B for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:35:15 +0100 (CET) From: Brian Trammell X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CC8A2FAF-E9E3-42FE-A1DD-2D451DAE01C5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:35:15 +0100 Message-Id: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> To: hops@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:35:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CC8A2FAF-E9E3-42FE-A1DD-2D451DAE01C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Greetings, all, Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and = Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised = the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an = RG. Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, = we've decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for = Protocols (MAP). Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org: Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was = envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that = for which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are = sometimes reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and = Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by = measurement with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, as = well as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can = benefit from insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. = Likewise, Internet measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts = with the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) = Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two = communities, supporting: - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol = engineering and network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of = Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to = protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols. Membership ---------- Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. Meetings -------- The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary by = the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be = co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge the = gap between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG may = also meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network operator = forums, as appopriate. Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published = proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting = venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at = least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as = deemed necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with = restricted attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, = provided that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the = community. Chairs ------ Mirja K=C3=BChlewind Dave Plonka Many thanks, Brian --Apple-Mail=_CC8A2FAF-E9E3-42FE-A1DD-2D451DAE01C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWVu5zAAoJEIoSt78L6kajyawQALuRFSIoXYzxEUPTnHrRE10b i0dLqTDjQqLZlCc2DBVDOSIB7pNQNJp7E/x/xwLYyYgHWSRpHE7NyK1YZdCvjM/G lnxAmerwj0ZdGF+FwT9KDfkiTsjbq7eUH7rMnpRLmTlENZ3Q9MrR1SCmElakSp2a LGU8nnhihqNDmPY77Mol6KepOyqtewkgdcT5A6omHoYQfjMgZJUay7LtqozRHBIj tWeAm+borrDSPvkUrogGPrMHLH9rp6fzqJ/w8nXCZFz89bvseBfSAWTpd+9MlWh1 PyMy2SjFmzSn7BjPynzRbyEbb5fQwFd1/84eauVussQD9v52YMAZyPz1ZwpaBBQ2 x1TKUnVY8nXgtZtoVk36XSSbeIRZSVuctX8UDlx2ffphL6acN2Ud7XICONBpfQ/f 96AJBjVyA3/AXxxGs9wDalsamlXtzfMmZ4KvgQ5K2IyMBHOXG2vFEylrpURRYs8w iMUeSjPP/0G6bGZgy3DyIVkVX0b4fpS7uxJ5rSyM+RWXCbBthdXHVSfhOWN+4PfO /MlFb4CMk3xZACor1dstmjU6ySbd4uDRO43uODkl/98vXJE2Q0VVbltIUuO7t1KG pDBJ8ixzszYucSuB+Vdtd0EPBAoYbHgBimFFE6aABxMDUDuP05W/D2apRDYLa1ob pwvjDZGPeNJoN+EwD+s4 =WexB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_CC8A2FAF-E9E3-42FE-A1DD-2D451DAE01C5-- From nobody Thu Nov 26 04:42:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC211A90E9 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:42:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Y-ii6rd6jpM for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 817431B2B56 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmww144 with SMTP id w144so21045617wmw.0 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:42:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=it-uc3m-es.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ku/DlktDuua726pbFtFuIWSH2mmF479+Sr2aWH+GxF8=; b=2IIDhdq+Bx4C/xhokWC4ubZan/53Fyh8rNdliFaqrwwBulir/xlNOf89BqRsP5FPWE VPHNX07fLhsruRqGRBii3GB2/ZsAp1Kn00VmKPIO5PepoYT1ylzdglpqWBtSRBZX2mT0 C2gp3XVu5UeEDaLjDSL5CP1okgxyn1tm2UDLt3s2oXx2J2Qh0pH0gl0pwsU2VjPN2fJV jP0ZSoZ9uyEqq6dxcBYUrCkbBV84KkVbT6t9B7XvfhcGlaBLNP0R4i+nSGkp+2ygg2Ye 1v4E4gyvfhYVayVFtUPpQrdqrWlh9zz6mjIy57xtMoSk9hM1RGF2hWUrCwGrgmpji28B zexw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ku/DlktDuua726pbFtFuIWSH2mmF479+Sr2aWH+GxF8=; b=MsoDJZ6iriUinZXXT3JvgIFTUNJN5cpaaakaIKFSEmKTcQeCIRtmciKaAIDcAZtVh1 topJ2obDWaIUnl/0lVrVeOcPWz89Sl0lLRPZ4ITZS3Rs7V5YTx9BoHSkBVfcUoGXr+z9 homQTSgN0Zziv35OMJcagWMAYmiCQChL+eOR97p3rkf1K1OwfSWJlyYrdv5gRZeNd8Jt kBLz+EbW+m6bF9dp8i2tVZqfG2JcyA+7pVd3GB7JlqwJ3aWCaFPM7xPZnTg5jjtN0zUf AUze5mfMTHTlzV8mceb9DPJ71Ksx7iwjfPdsBuMnqRcdQXeOt+e0xH2AVnUgXQxbG2ne JilA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkUWxbPFxt6Nf6p8BIbhYYRnNwTUf/PmU60fpXEduGXaw8v9Y9sDUea/qeUS6uRayti0cKl X-Received: by 10.194.243.201 with SMTP id xa9mr49306359wjc.122.1448541764065; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from Macintosh-6.local ([2001:720:410:1010:243b:f64b:6dd1:ebc4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q9sm15067096wjo.9.2015.11.26.04.42.42 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:42:43 -0800 (PST) To: hops@ietf.org References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> From: marcelo bagnulo braun Message-ID: <5656FE42.8030505@it.uc3m.es> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:42:42 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:42:49 -0000 Looks good to me I support the creation of this RG Thanks for doing this. Regards, marcelo El 26/11/15 a las 12:35, Brian Trammell escribió: > Greetings, all, > > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, we've decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP). > > > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org: > > > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG > =============================================== > > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envisioned. > Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that for > which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some > protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are sometimes > reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis > for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by measurement > with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. > > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, as well > as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can benefit > from insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, > Internet measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with the > IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) Research > Group aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two communities, > supporting: > > - exchange of measurement-derived insight, > - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering > and network operations, > - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and > - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community to > introduce its efforts to the IETF > > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of Internet > operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to protocol > engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols. > > Membership > ---------- > > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. > > Meetings > -------- > > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary by the > chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be co-located > with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge the gap > between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG may also > meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network operator forums, > as appopriate. > > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published proceedings, > with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting venue, > according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at least one > MAP RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed > necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted > attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided > that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the community. > > Chairs > ------ > > Mirja Kühlewind > Dave Plonka > > > Many thanks, > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops From nobody Thu Nov 26 04:44:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266691B2B3E for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:44:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SS3WYJNzvqLb for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out5.uio.no (mail-out5.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4257B1A1A06 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 04:44:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-mx2.uio.no ([129.240.10.30]) by mail-out5.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1a1vu9-0005bc-1h for hops@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:44:05 +0100 Received: from boomerang.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.135]) by mail-mx2.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1a1vu8-0007Oe-Lr for hops@ietf.org; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:44:05 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: <5656FE42.8030505@it.uc3m.es> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:44:04 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7B13D9A2-8DA8-4F5F-A08C-A9188A97D7A3@ifi.uio.no> References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <5656FE42.8030505@it.uc3m.es> To: hops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 8 msgs/h 4 sum rcpts/h 11 sum msgs/h 4 total rcpts 35817 max rcpts/h 54 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-6.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: D0D57EBC4E1545A9C04E405B798A0838042EC210 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.68.135 spam_score: -59 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 4 total 8622 max/h 17 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:44:10 -0000 +1 > On 26 Nov 2015, at 13:42, marcelo bagnulo braun = wrote: >=20 > Looks good to me >=20 > I support the creation of this RG >=20 > Thanks for doing this. >=20 > Regards, marcelo >=20 > El 26/11/15 a las 12:35, Brian Trammell escribi=F3: >> Greetings, all, >>=20 >> Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and = Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised = the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an = RG. Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, = we've decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for = Protocols (MAP). >>=20 >>=20 >> Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org: >>=20 >>=20 >> Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was = envisioned. >> Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than = that for >> which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat = some >> protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are = sometimes >> reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and = Analysis >> for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by = measurement >> with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. >>=20 >> Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, = as well >> as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can = benefit >> from insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. = Likewise, >> Internet measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts = with the >> IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) = Research >> Group aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two = communities, >> supporting: >>=20 >> - exchange of measurement-derived insight, >> - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol = engineering >> and network operations, >> - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and >> - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community = to >> introduce its efforts to the IETF >>=20 >> Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of = Internet >> operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to = protocol >> engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols. >>=20 >> Membership >> ---------- >>=20 >> Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. >>=20 >> Meetings >> -------- >>=20 >> The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary = by the >> chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be = co-located >> with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge = the gap >> between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG = may also >> meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network operator = forums, >> as appopriate. >>=20 >> Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published = proceedings, >> with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting = venue, >> according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at = least one >> MAP RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, = as deemed >> necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with = restricted >> attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, = provided >> that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the = community. >>=20 >> Chairs >> ------ >>=20 >> Mirja K=FChlewind >> Dave Plonka >>=20 >>=20 >> Many thanks, >>=20 >> Brian >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> hops mailing list >> hops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops From nobody Thu Nov 26 13:00:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70F51B2FCA for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:00:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 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Nov 2015 16:00:01 -0500 From: Wassim Haddad To: "hops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group Thread-Index: AQHRKD6fF6QxNVjVDEeonv4ZnK8YH56ukzYAgAAAYQCAAIqVAA== Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 21:00:00 +0000 Message-ID: <2325A35F-9F4C-401F-A949-DC04CD8BF3EE@ericsson.com> References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <5656FE42.8030505@it.uc3m.es> <7B13D9A2-8DA8-4F5F-A08C-A9188A97D7A3@ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <7B13D9A2-8DA8-4F5F-A08C-A9188A97D7A3@ifi.uio.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail-4A0311CC-CA16-43EB-8A3D-A7F2B15558D2"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiO6FovAwgzcbVSy+H9zD7MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujJ5LjawF97wq3szYwdbAeM6ji5GTQ0LARGLPtx/sELaYxIV7 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FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZM2Fb76dK_zV for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f45.google.com (mail-pa0-f45.google.com [209.85.220.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D1471A88D1 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by pabfh17 with SMTP id fh17so98414050pab.0 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:18:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=JMET68HBE29DCdRUmRQ6PSkqv7J/3SKgxp96+Ko1Mqw=; b=CkOY/JtrFkk9f2qMdBQz/YMv4Yp43N7htv6QjCcw6DfF3LBUf9WGKwuLHh1C0gEb0E h/dDu/EJGv6Q0TxoLz0DF4v/ocPpIZA8gu0f4Z8Pds6l3I2Z2S/yTNg9fcY0J1yWXhkY sXFrm2O8RJ/TjNJm5EYx/tDaru+dhfyfsMB/ha8beoELJai7Y1ihBn8Ahy7ihFWSglnz YWknnXmsjG3zaugupvS0Xd35+RDmHJpT6PrZ30uEnvid3RMjDCn2u5QSYpbIO43Nk06j GwT4nH5MZauTzhnHEmu9a96voGz9+3gAByiUENXeGVj45kOGfBBfhPWAZ86kgjhg+di7 pt1A== X-Received: by 10.66.148.67 with SMTP id tq3mr63397060pab.124.1448576294616; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:18:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <5656FE42.8030505@it.uc3m.es> <7B13D9A2-8DA8-4F5F-A08C-A9188A97D7A3@ifi.uio.no> <2325A35F-9F4C-401F-A949-DC04CD8BF3EE@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <2325A35F-9F4C-401F-A949-DC04CD8BF3EE@ericsson.com> From: Ethan Katz-Bassett Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:18:05 +0000 Message-ID: To: Wassim Haddad , "hops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6dcad27883f8052578f37f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:18:18 -0000 --047d7b6dcad27883f8052578f37f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good. I like expliticly calling out the role as a "landing pad" for academic work. On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 1:00 PM Wassim Haddad wrote: > +1 > > > Wassim H. > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Nov 26, 2015, at 04:44, Michael Welzl wrote: > > > > +1 > > > > > >> On 26 Nov 2015, at 13:42, marcelo bagnulo braun > wrote: > >> > >> Looks good to me > >> > >> I support the creation of this RG > >> > >> Thanks for doing this. > >> > >> Regards, marcelo > >> > >>> El 26/11/15 a las 12:35, Brian Trammell escribi=C3=B3: > >>> Greetings, all, > >>> > >>> Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and > Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised > the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an R= G. > Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, we'v= e > decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protoco= ls > (MAP). > >>> > >>> > >>> Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org: > >>> > >>> > >>> Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> > >>> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was > envisioned. > >>> Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than tha= t > for > >>> which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat > some > >>> protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are > sometimes > >>> reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and > Analysis > >>> for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by > measurement > >>> with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. > >>> > >>> Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, > as well > >>> as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can > benefit > >>> from insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. > Likewise, > >>> Internet measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts > with the > >>> IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) > Research > >>> Group aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two > communities, > >>> supporting: > >>> > >>> - exchange of measurement-derived insight, > >>> - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol > engineering > >>> and network operations, > >>> - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and > >>> - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community t= o > >>> introduce its efforts to the IETF > >>> > >>> Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of > Internet > >>> operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to > protocol > >>> engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols. > >>> > >>> Membership > >>> ---------- > >>> > >>> Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. > >>> > >>> Meetings > >>> -------- > >>> > >>> The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary > by the > >>> chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be > co-located > >>> with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge > the gap > >>> between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG ma= y > also > >>> meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network operator > forums, > >>> as appopriate. > >>> > >>> Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published > proceedings, > >>> with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting > venue, > >>> according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at > least one > >>> MAP RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, > as deemed > >>> necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with > restricted > >>> attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, > provided > >>> that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the > community. > >>> > >>> Chairs > >>> ------ > >>> > >>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind > >>> Dave Plonka > >>> > >>> > >>> Many thanks, > >>> > >>> Brian > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> hops mailing list > >>> hops@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> hops mailing list > >> hops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hops mailing list > > hops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > --047d7b6dcad27883f8052578f37f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good. I like expliticly calling out the role as a "landing pad&q= uot; for academic work.
On T= hu, Nov 26, 2015 at 1:00 PM Wassim Haddad <wassim.haddad@ericsson.com> wrote:
+1


Wassim H.


Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 26, 2015, at 04:44, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>> On 26 Nov 2015, at 13:42, marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es> wrote:=
>>
>> Looks good to me
>>
>> I support the creation of this RG
>>
>> Thanks for doing this.
>>
>> Regards, marcelo
>>
>>> El 26/11/15 a las 12:35, Brian Trammell escribi=C3=B3:
>>> Greetings, all,
>>>
>>> Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prag= ue and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've= revised the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of su= ch an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, thou= gh, we've decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis= for Protocols (MAP).
>>>
>>>
>>> Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org:
>>>
>>>
>>> Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
>>>
>>> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what w= as envisioned.
>>> Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than t= han that for
>>> which they were designed. For instance, some network elements = treat some
>>> protocols differently than others and those protocols themselv= es are sometimes
>>> reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement= and Analysis
>>> for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomen= a by measurement
>>> with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice.
>>>
>>> Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development c= ontext, as well
>>> as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols,= can benefit
>>> from insight provided by Internet measurements of various kind= s. Likewise,
>>> Internet measurement research efforts can stand to gain from c= ontacts with the
>>> IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (M= AP) Research
>>> Group aims to provide a forum for interchange between these tw= o communities,
>>> supporting:
>>>
>>> - exchange of measurement-derived insight,
>>> - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protoc= ol engineering
>>>=C2=A0 and network operations,
>>> - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, = and
>>> - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measur= ement community to
>>>=C2=A0 introduce its efforts to the IETF
>>>
>>> Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or as= pect of Internet
>>> operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant= to protocol
>>> engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF pro= tocols.
>>>
>>> Membership
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. >>>
>>> Meetings
>>> --------
>>>
>>> The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed ne= cessary by the
>>> chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting wi= ll be co-located
>>> with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter = to bridge the gap
>>> between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MA= P RG may also
>>> meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network o= perator forums,
>>> as appopriate.
>>>
>>> Meetings are by default open with open attendance and publishe= d proceedings,
>>> with remote participation and recording as provided by the mee= ting venue,
>>> according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the cas= e with at least one
>>> MAP RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. Ho= wever, as deemed
>>> necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings wi= th restricted
>>> attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared open= ly, provided
>>> that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with = the community.
>>>
>>> Chairs
>>> ------
>>>
>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
>>> Dave Plonka <plonka@akamai.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> hops mailing list
>>> hops@ietf.o= rg
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hops mailing list
>> hops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops >
> _______________________________________________
> hops mailing list
> hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
_______________________________________________
hops mailing list
hops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
--047d7b6dcad27883f8052578f37f-- From nobody Fri Nov 27 07:47:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5441B3564 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 07:47:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HELO_EQ_AT=0.424, HOST_EQ_AT=0.745, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqSJLbCV5UUp for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 07:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.zserv.tuwien.ac.at (mail1.zserv.tuwien.ac.at [128.130.35.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3F751B355C for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 07:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.1] (91-115-75-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at [91.115.75.173]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail1.zserv.tuwien.ac.at (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tARFlT9m018504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:47:29 +0100 To: Brian Trammell , hops@ietf.org References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> From: Joachim Fabini X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:47:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 15:47:39 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Brian, I support the charter, thanks for revising it, and full consent to Ethan's statement: "landing pad" for the IMC community reads excellent, nice wording. One question (perhaps a minor rewording can help): is "collaborations to share data supporting these measurements" equivalent to "defining repositories and sharing meaningful methods, measurement results, measurement context and limitations of data sets" as discussed in Yokohama? It's not clear to me what "supporting these measurements" refers to exactly. It could mean "sharing of successful measurement methods and setups" rather than "sharing of measurement results". Second, is it needed|meaningful to explicitly mention legal aspects related to data sharing as within/outside of the MAP charter? Sharing data means dealing with country-specifics, licensing terms, privacy vs. usability, etc. As such, legal aspects are implicitly part of the charter. My feeling is that MAP should propose guidelines for sharing measurement data, and that such guidelines could be really helpful for the community. However, the discussion on the ietf94-attendees mailing list is a fair warning to be _very_ careful with discussions on any legal aspects (in particular privacy). There's a high risk to lose focus - perhaps we can delegate this subtask to the hrpc RG. ;) many thanks, Joachim On 26.11.2015 12:35, Brian Trammell wrote: > Greetings, all, > > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague > and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, > we've revised the charter to reflect what we think the community > wants out of such an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded > scope of this charter, though, we've decided to rename the proposed > RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP). > > > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at > hops@ietf.org: > > > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG > =============================================== > > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was > envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other > than than that for which they were designed. For instance, some > network elements treat some protocols differently than others and > those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways > initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocols > (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by measurement > with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. > > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development > context, as well as best practices for the operation of > IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from insight provided by > Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet > measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with > the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering > (MAP) Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange > between these two communities, supporting: > > - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of > techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering and > network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these > measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet > measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF > > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect > of Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are > relevant to protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the > operation of IETF protocols. > > Membership ---------- > > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. > > Meetings -------- > > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed > necessary by the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP > RG meeting will be co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given > the MAP RG's charter to bridge the gap between Internet standards > and measurement communities, the MAP RG may also meet colocated > with relevant academic conferences or network operator forums, as > appopriate. > > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published > proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by > the meeting venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is > always the case with at least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an > IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed necessary, the chairs > may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted attendance to > discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided that > some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the > community. > > Chairs ------ > > Mirja Kühlewind Dave Plonka > > > > Many thanks, > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWWHsRAAoJEKCP3BPvRqfSEN0IAL6c4Ze0q4HsDmONuh6WvbwF 4rLv1QEOgSGVCJzYGgfPSTdz5sgxjKWJ9X822CHe8PXDnjBlFvjJPg+da0IbyY9p SaDNZXY1YxUjt+YU+TwJctAZilMs8uWIOvv9Dq/WIfvXiBd1yWfB5PZ5HTYy+V/b 0Mup4gtmPcuR4cBgOKogRRz8iIMgxlOYFMfcrn18ZWy1HpOuIj9bHciA/T51QCGZ lOGCVsuzesg30qwEMpv0H5vusz9eaYZCw2h9B7k7hHkP3ahuNO5u+raNUVSE4NYN JFpHBngwPy7MiJdetYEba8p1o557hDgb+R5AtlnUwDxGMAuzbiPxkrmgTAi4/sc= =ZvWy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri Nov 27 08:19:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379611B35D7 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDSrTp8CJvVy for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x230.google.com (mail-yk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1173B1B35D4 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykba77 with SMTP id a77so122274370ykb.2 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Vqu90U2YLot8oVaCB4jhtRhm6HIhM08ckoMhL+jpFCU=; b=dVWIP/sUwy00VfPudUYCbAGgZ85J5QR1m8TWT5q0X0a9fBSNocXWp7lcvMH6np5rew Yw3d4EvLX2xRIB2kvDAVnVRjwqGNNXwJ05iXydwz1rKCM3HyOiGBaysHXacwb/C+Pp9V mHWLResnDwyQg+IjU5rHc34910Dkk+FIJ1SqRrQcCY1kgXOflWZHq1FoKXiwUrF5YT2z TM+HcId89lp10+nxHgviXcpXgYRSn6TcW0qdV/bUM+nKoYzJ9w0m5EGdA3P0yfxTpbmW yYQZ6HxP0o6jy6BhRcRwmVhUD06b30upWWLdglVYCoF0L1MoKHW1GlLY7B9ymcgV2i29 D4gw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.197.198 with SMTP id h189mr41119815ywd.254.1448641190115; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.111.6 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at> References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:19:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: Aaron Falk To: Joachim Fabini Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e48828b3fda0525880f41 Archived-At: Cc: Brian Trammell , hops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:19:54 -0000 --001a114e48828b3fda0525880f41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joachim- Good points but I would suggest the charter stay fairly vague on the subjects other than allowing them to be in-scope for the RG, for exactly the reason you suggest (it can be a distraction). Perhaps just adding "and best practices" to the end of the first bullet would open the door without becoming an attractive nuisance. [*] --aaron * - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Joachim Fabini < Joachim.Fabini@tuwien.ac.at> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Brian, > > I support the charter, thanks for revising it, and full consent to > Ethan's statement: "landing pad" for the IMC community reads > excellent, nice wording. > > One question (perhaps a minor rewording can help): is "collaborations > to share data supporting these measurements" equivalent to "defining > repositories and sharing meaningful methods, measurement results, > measurement context and limitations of data sets" as discussed in > Yokohama? It's not clear to me what "supporting these measurements" > refers to exactly. It could mean "sharing of successful measurement > methods and setups" rather than "sharing of measurement results". > > Second, is it needed|meaningful to explicitly mention legal aspects > related to data sharing as within/outside of the MAP charter? Sharing > data means dealing with country-specifics, licensing terms, privacy > vs. usability, etc. As such, legal aspects are implicitly part of the > charter. My feeling is that MAP should propose guidelines for sharing > measurement data, and that such guidelines could be really helpful for > the community. However, the discussion on the ietf94-attendees mailing > list is a fair warning to be _very_ careful with discussions on any > legal aspects (in particular privacy). There's a high risk to lose > focus - perhaps we can delegate this subtask to the hrpc RG. ;) > > many thanks, > Joachim > > > > On 26.11.2015 12:35, Brian Trammell wrote: > > Greetings, all, > > > > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague > > and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, > > we've revised the charter to reflect what we think the community > > wants out of such an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded > > scope of this charter, though, we've decided to rename the proposed > > RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP). > > > > > > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at > > hops@ietf.org: > > > > > > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was > > envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other > > than than that for which they were designed. For instance, some > > network elements treat some protocols differently than others and > > those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways > > initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocols > > (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by measurement > > with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. > > > > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development > > context, as well as best practices for the operation of > > IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from insight provided by > > Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet > > measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with > > the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering > > (MAP) Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange > > between these two communities, supporting: > > > > - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of > > techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering and > > network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these > > measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet > > measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF > > > > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect > > of Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are > > relevant to protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the > > operation of IETF protocols. > > > > Membership ---------- > > > > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. > > > > Meetings -------- > > > > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed > > necessary by the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP > > RG meeting will be co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given > > the MAP RG's charter to bridge the gap between Internet standards > > and measurement communities, the MAP RG may also meet colocated > > with relevant academic conferences or network operator forums, as > > appopriate. > > > > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published > > proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by > > the meeting venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is > > always the case with at least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an > > IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed necessary, the chairs > > may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted attendance to > > discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided that > > some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the > > community. > > > > Chairs ------ > > > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind Dave Plonka > > > > > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ hops mailing list > > hops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWWHsRAAoJEKCP3BPvRqfSEN0IAL6c4Ze0q4HsDmONuh6WvbwF > 4rLv1QEOgSGVCJzYGgfPSTdz5sgxjKWJ9X822CHe8PXDnjBlFvjJPg+da0IbyY9p > SaDNZXY1YxUjt+YU+TwJctAZilMs8uWIOvv9Dq/WIfvXiBd1yWfB5PZ5HTYy+V/b > 0Mup4gtmPcuR4cBgOKogRRz8iIMgxlOYFMfcrn18ZWy1HpOuIj9bHciA/T51QCGZ > lOGCVsuzesg30qwEMpv0H5vusz9eaYZCw2h9B7k7hHkP3ahuNO5u+raNUVSE4NYN > JFpHBngwPy7MiJdetYEba8p1o557hDgb+R5AtlnUwDxGMAuzbiPxkrmgTAi4/sc=3D > =3DZvWy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > --001a114e48828b3fda0525880f41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joachim-

Good points but I would sug= gest the charter stay fairly vague on the subjects other than allowing them= to be in-scope for the RG, for exactly the reason you suggest (it can be a= distraction).=C2=A0 Perhaps just adding "and best practices" to = the end of the first bullet would open the door without becoming an attract= ive nuisance. [*]

--aaron

* - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine=C2=A0
=

On Fri, Nov= 27, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Joachim Fabini <Joachim.Fabini@tuwien.ac.= at> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP S= IGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Brian,

I support the charter, thanks for revising it, and full consent to
Ethan's statement: "landing pad" for the IMC community reads<= br> excellent, nice wording.

One question (perhaps a minor rewording can help): is "collaborations<= br> to share data supporting these measurements" equivalent to "defin= ing
repositories and sharing meaningful methods, measurement results,
measurement context and limitations of data sets" as discussed in
Yokohama? It's not clear to me what "supporting these measurements= "
refers to exactly. It could mean "sharing of successful measurement methods and setups" rather than "sharing of measurement results&q= uot;.

Second, is it needed|meaningful to explicitly mention legal aspects
related to data sharing as within/outside of the MAP charter? Sharing
data means dealing with country-specifics, licensing terms, privacy
vs. usability, etc. As such, legal aspects are implicitly part of the
charter. My feeling is that MAP should propose guidelines for sharing
measurement data, and that such guidelines could be really helpful for
the community. However, the discussion on the ietf94-attendees mailing
list is a fair warning to be _very_ careful with discussions on any
legal aspects (in particular privacy). There's a high risk to lose
focus - perhaps we can delegate this subtask to the hrpc RG. ;)

many thanks,
Joachim



On 26.11.2015 12:35, Brian Trammell wrote:
> Greetings, all,
>
> Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague
> and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama,
> we've revised the charter to reflect what we think the community > wants out of such an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded
> scope of this charter, though, we've decided to rename the propose= d
> RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP).
>
>
> Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at
> hops@ietf.org:
>
>
> Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >
> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was
> envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other > than than that for which they were designed. For instance, some
> network elements treat some protocols differently than others and
> those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways
> initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
> (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by measurement
> with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice.
>
> Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development
> context, as well as best practices for the operation of
> IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from insight provided by
> Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet
> measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with
> the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering
> (MAP) Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange
> between these two communities, supporting:
>
> - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of
> techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering and
> network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these > measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Inter= net
> measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF
>
> Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect
> of Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are
> relevant to protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the
> operation of IETF protocols.
>
> Membership ----------
>
> Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties.
>
> Meetings --------
>
> The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed
> necessary by the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP
> RG meeting will be co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given
> the MAP RG's charter to bridge the gap between Internet standards<= br> > and measurement communities, the MAP RG may also meet colocated
> with relevant academic conferences or network operator forums, as
> appopriate.
>
> Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published
> proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by > the meeting venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is
> always the case with at least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an > IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed necessary, the chairs
> may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted attendance to > discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided that
> some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the
> community.
>
> Chairs ------
>
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> Dave Plonka
> <plonka@akamai.com>
>
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> _________________________________________= ______ hops mailing list
> hops@ietf.org ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops
>
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15.01.0331.023; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:17:23 +0000 From: DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA To: "hops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group Thread-Index: AQHRKD6kXx3sI/uEw02GwsSFKcHXrJ6wBVqAgAAJCQCAABASgA== Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:17:22 +0000 Message-ID: <71178176-0A7C-45ED-80B4-A7FFF3710D88@telefonica.com> References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [37.13.15.163] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB4PR06MB0622; 5:9B1LYqewpLUu5omMcLSJ716jRXUtu8dAwy6Mqi5hNx4JKYjTUR5qhKLVYPotcteODTW9xgD+/WuzmwMtG7eSb72Q4+OrzcYTK9cAc0Ge7e3Dj+qXukvOtj/QsBZk1Rgim8aCmzVmB1bJL9Y+i63Rxw==; 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boundary="_000_711781760A7C45ED80B4A7FFF3710D88telefonicacom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Nov 2015 17:17:22.9985 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4PR06MB0622 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-TM-AS-MML: No Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:17:35 -0000 --_000_711781760A7C45ED80B4A7FFF3710D88telefonicacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCkkgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGlzIGNoYXJ0ZXIsIGFuZCBBYXJvbuKAmXMgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbiBh 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aGxld2luZEB0aWsuZWUuZXRoei5jaD4gRGF2ZSBQbG9ua2ENCj4gPHBsb25rYUBha2FtYWkuY29t Pg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IE1hbnkgdGhhbmtzLA0KPiANCj4gQnJpYW4NCg== From nobody Sat Nov 28 02:04:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2A51A88D6 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 02:04:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id THO0tGBIiCDM for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 02:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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from still.local ([184.13.114.26]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t98sm14263059ioi.31.2015.11.28.02.04.14 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 28 Nov 2015 02:04:14 -0800 (PST) To: hops@ietf.org References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <56587B11.4050204@tuwien.ac.at> From: Tim Wicinski Message-ID: <56597C1E.1000402@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 05:04:14 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:44.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/44.0a2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:04:21 -0000 I like Brian's charter, but Aaron's suggestions on being vague actually allows for flexibility down the road. Is the output from the WG Internet Drafts or something else? tim On 11/27/15 11:19 AM, Aaron Falk wrote: > Hi Joachim- > > Good points but I would suggest the charter stay fairly vague on the > subjects other than allowing them to be in-scope for the RG, for exactly > the reason you suggest (it can be a distraction). Perhaps just adding > "and best practices" to the end of the first bullet would open the door > without becoming an attractive nuisance. [*] > > --aaron > > * - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Joachim Fabini > > wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Brian, > > I support the charter, thanks for revising it, and full consent to > Ethan's statement: "landing pad" for the IMC community reads > excellent, nice wording. > > One question (perhaps a minor rewording can help): is "collaborations > to share data supporting these measurements" equivalent to "defining > repositories and sharing meaningful methods, measurement results, > measurement context and limitations of data sets" as discussed in > Yokohama? It's not clear to me what "supporting these measurements" > refers to exactly. It could mean "sharing of successful measurement > methods and setups" rather than "sharing of measurement results". > > Second, is it needed|meaningful to explicitly mention legal aspects > related to data sharing as within/outside of the MAP charter? Sharing > data means dealing with country-specifics, licensing terms, privacy > vs. usability, etc. As such, legal aspects are implicitly part of the > charter. My feeling is that MAP should propose guidelines for sharing > measurement data, and that such guidelines could be really helpful for > the community. However, the discussion on the ietf94-attendees mailing > list is a fair warning to be _very_ careful with discussions on any > legal aspects (in particular privacy). There's a high risk to lose > focus - perhaps we can delegate this subtask to the hrpc RG. ;) > > many thanks, > Joachim > > > > On 26.11.2015 12:35, Brian Trammell wrote: > > Greetings, all, > > > > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague > > and Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, > > we've revised the charter to reflect what we think the community > > wants out of such an RG. Note that given the slightly expanded > > scope of this charter, though, we've decided to rename the proposed > > RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP). > > > > > > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at > > hops@ietf.org : > > > > > > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG > > =============================================== > > > > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was > > envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other > > than than that for which they were designed. For instance, some > > network elements treat some protocols differently than others and > > those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways > > initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocols > > (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by measurement > > with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. > > > > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development > > context, as well as best practices for the operation of > > IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from insight provided by > > Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet > > measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with > > the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering > > (MAP) Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange > > between these two communities, supporting: > > > > - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of > > techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering and > > network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these > > measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet > > measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF > > > > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect > > of Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are > > relevant to protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the > > operation of IETF protocols. > > > > Membership ---------- > > > > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. > > > > Meetings -------- > > > > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed > > necessary by the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP > > RG meeting will be co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given > > the MAP RG's charter to bridge the gap between Internet standards > > and measurement communities, the MAP RG may also meet colocated > > with relevant academic conferences or network operator forums, as > > appopriate. > > > > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published > > proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by > > the meeting venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is > > always the case with at least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an > > IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed necessary, the chairs > > may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted attendance to > > discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided that > > some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the > > community. > > > > Chairs ------ > > > > Mirja Kühlewind > Dave Plonka > > > > > > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ hops mailing list > >hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJWWHsRAAoJEKCP3BPvRqfSEN0IAL6c4Ze0q4HsDmONuh6WvbwF > 4rLv1QEOgSGVCJzYGgfPSTdz5sgxjKWJ9X822CHe8PXDnjBlFvjJPg+da0IbyY9p > SaDNZXY1YxUjt+YU+TwJctAZilMs8uWIOvv9Dq/WIfvXiBd1yWfB5PZ5HTYy+V/b > 0Mup4gtmPcuR4cBgOKogRRz8iIMgxlOYFMfcrn18ZWy1HpOuIj9bHciA/T51QCGZ > lOGCVsuzesg30qwEMpv0H5vusz9eaYZCw2h9B7k7hHkP3ahuNO5u+raNUVSE4NYN > JFpHBngwPy7MiJdetYEba8p1o557hDgb+R5AtlnUwDxGMAuzbiPxkrmgTAi4/sc= > =ZvWy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > > > > > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops > From nobody Sat Nov 28 10:01:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6B31B334D for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:01:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.334 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.334 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=1.252] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WxBQxRcVmuUK for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0A11B334C for ; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 10:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1978B433431; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:01:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com [172.27.118.251]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4430433414; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:01:50 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1448733710; bh=uzUxOnHtjehq3XHR715BcS6IInwxhgM6f59LYBjNe8w=; l=7966; h=Date:From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=salfb+DnMG+y2o6alFzZ88yA3Fonbupn1D5603H01ar3UCqmO/kGjUW/ccu/qpeIv L2O5XQYIrXZXYsq/Z/Xn3Lc4pxzroTxRjuqRESax7viOhqlFBCiKpNILsBVhDnlvHO qoblsCDYgNxC2jnIFiO7IaZt8XSsHV7nmFFshEO4= Received: from bos-lpbwe.kendall.corp.akamai.com (bos-lpbwe.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.9.166]) by prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AA9204E; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:01:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dplonka by bos-lpbwe.kendall.corp.akamai.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1a2jok-0000Wx-Jk; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 13:01:50 -0500 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 13:01:50 -0500 From: Dave Plonka To: "hops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20151128180150.GA1378@akamai.com> References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <82AB329A76E2484D934BBCA77E9F5249A67B47F5@PALLENE.office.hd> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <82AB329A76E2484D934BBCA77E9F5249A67B47F5@PALLENE.office.hd> X-URL: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/ X-VMS-Error: %SYSTEM-E-COMPAT, compatibility mode fault (code 0) at PC=00000428, PS=7FED6580 X-Shakespearean-Insult: Thou currish weather-bitten foot-licker User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Cc: Brian Trammell , Dirk Kutscher Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 18:01:56 -0000 Hi Dirk and others, [Speaking only for myself below, but along the lines of why I am willing to co-chair the propsed RG.] On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 06:29:49PM +0000, Dirk Kutscher wrote: > Hi Brian and all, > > first off, I welcome everyone who wants to do work in the IRTF. > > With the very general scope as it is described now, I wonder a bit > how this relates to the IRTF's objective of " creating focused, > long-term Research Groups working on topics related to Internet > protocols, applications, architecture and technology." The broadening of the scope beyond HOPS was intentional. I too am interested in focused work, and we intend to have individual items be focused, but from a RG perspective, something broad enough to accept yet-to-be proposed topics was desired; so that the RG can span multiple efforts potentially without rechartering, i.e., administrative work. > Measurements, in my view, are a tool for networking research and > development, and in fact most of us are doing measurements in > different forms for validating assumptions, assessing performance > etc. Research groups such as ICCRG are often discussing measurement > results. > > So in that sense, it's a meta topic that is daily business for IRTF > RGs. I am fully aware of the fact that measurement methodology is > itself a research topic, but it's not quite clear to me what we > want to achieve. > > - are we trying to do/promote constructive work towards advancing > Internet measurement tools and infrastructure? No, neither tools nor infrastructure (are inherently in scope), but rather measurement techniques and discovery of how the Internet exists and is "playing out" in ways that directly affect IETF goals re: standards and BCP. The charter as proposed specifically mentions towards advancing (only) protocol design and operation. > - are we planning to discuss middlebox issues? Yes. We expect to transition this and continue this effort from the non-RG-forming HOPS meetings, to the degree that there are people to do the work. In my mind, the effect iddlebox's have on protocol performance is the "poster child" topic for our proposed MAP RG; if successful, it will demonstrate how discovering substrate characteristics can inform protocol development and operation/practice. > - do we want offer discussion platform for general measurement topics? No. There are other forums for that, e.g., the IPPM Working Group and the Internet Measurement Conference. Building measurement infrastructures, e.g., databases, is also something we currently consider out of scope. > I am bit skeptical with respect to creating an RG for general > measurement discussions. There are existing conferences and workshops > that are doing that already. Also, it's unclear how that would > contribute to the IRTF objectives. It might help if I offer some example topics (that Brian or I considered as strawmen) that I find would be in scope: - A survey of the IPv6 WWW, to inform practice with respect to privacy, e.g. service address assignment, virtual hosting, and SNI. Basically, "Are we building an IPv6 web that we want?" - Large scale examination of IPv4 address utilization or "churn", and how it's changing in cooperation with IPv6. - For operational purposes such as DoS mitigation, how should "IP reputation" likely need to change for IPv6. What needs to be measured (differently)? These are use (semi-imaginary) examples, but I know of researchers working on each of these that might benefit from bringing them to an IRTF forum such as the proposed MAP RG. > Please enlighten me. :-) You be the judge. If you find that the charter doesn't jibe with my comments above, please offer your suggested change(s). Thanks Dirk! Dave > > -----Original Message----- > > From: hops [mailto:hops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell > > Sent: Donnerstag, 26. November 2015 12:35 > > To: hops@ietf.org > > Subject: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols > > (MAP) Research Group > > > > Greetings, all, > > > > Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and > > Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've revised > > the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such an RG. > > Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, we've > > decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for Protocols > > (MAP). > > > > > > Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org: > > > > > > Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG > > =============================================== > > > > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envisioned. > > Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that for > > which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some > > protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are sometimes > > reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and Analysis > > for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by > > measurement with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. > > > > Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, as well > > as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can benefit from > > insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. Likewise, Internet > > measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with the IETF. > > The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) Research Group > > aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two communities, > > supporting: > > > > - exchange of measurement-derived insight, > > - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol engineering > > and network operations, > > - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and > > - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community to > > introduce its efforts to the IETF > > > > Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of Internet > > operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to protocol > > engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols. > > > > Membership > > ---------- > > > > Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. > > > > Meetings > > -------- > > > > The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary by the > > chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be co- > > located with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge the > > gap between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG > > may also meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network > > operator forums, as appopriate. > > > > Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published proceedings, > > with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting venue, > > according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at least one MAP > > RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as deemed > > necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with restricted > > attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, provided > > that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the > > community. > > > > Chairs > > ------ > > > > Mirja Kühlewind Dave Plonka > > > > > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops -- plonka@akamai.com http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/ Cambridge, MA From nobody Sun Nov 29 05:53:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682321A044E for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 05:53:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.487 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.487 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olms76co9c0T for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 05:53:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A573A1A03F9 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 05:53:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:2a49:8000::b9] (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:2a49:8000::b9]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26CC31A03E5; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B1F17C9F-1AF8-408D-B79C-8B7A03EA6C82"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: Brian Trammell In-Reply-To: <20151128180150.GA1378@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 14:53:04 +0100 Message-Id: <1576235D-973D-48CE-85EB-94352BB321D3@trammell.ch> References: <26DB4818-9DFA-4484-88B6-A48C24EF3CC0@trammell.ch> <82AB329A76E2484D934BBCA77E9F5249A67B47F5@PALLENE.office.hd> <20151128180150.GA1378@akamai.com> To: Dirk Kutscher X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: Dave Plonka , "hops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group X-BeenThere: hops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Measuring deployability of new transport protocols List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 13:53:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B1F17C9F-1AF8-408D-B79C-8B7A03EA6C82 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 hi Dirk, I had an editor open to answer your question, but I'll throw my answer = away and say "what Dave said". One point of emphasis below, inline. > On 28 Nov 2015, at 19:01, Dave Plonka wrote: >> I am bit skeptical with respect to creating an RG for general >> measurement discussions. There are existing conferences and workshops >> that are doing that already. Also, it's unclear how that would >> contribute to the IRTF objectives. >=20 > It might help if I offer some example topics (that Brian or I = considered > as strawmen) that I find would be in scope: >=20 > - A survey of the IPv6 WWW, to inform practice with respect to = privacy, > e.g. service address assignment, virtual hosting, and SNI. > Basically, "Are we building an IPv6 web that we want?" >=20 > - Large scale examination of IPv4 address utilization or "churn", > and how it's changing in cooperation with IPv6. >=20 > - For operational purposes such as DoS mitigation, how should > "IP reputation" likely need to change for IPv6. > What needs to be measured (differently)? >=20 > These are use (semi-imaginary) examples, but I know of researchers > working on each of these that might benefit from bringing them to > an IRTF forum such as the proposed MAP RG. The common theme here is applicability to protocol engineering and = operations -- the point of doing this within the IRTF is the relative = closeness of the IRTF to the IETF community, especially compared to the = academic network measurement community. We're not trying to replace = academic venues; if anything, MAP would be more like RIPE MAT for the = IETF community, which tries to get interesting work in measurement in = front of people who might not otherwise hear about it, and feed comments = on applicability and usefulness back into the measurement community. Cheers, Brian >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: hops [mailto:hops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian = Trammell >>> Sent: Donnerstag, 26. November 2015 12:35 >>> To: hops@ietf.org >>> Subject: [hops] Proposed Charter for Measurement and Analysis for = Protocols >>> (MAP) Research Group >>>=20 >>> Greetings, all, >>>=20 >>> Following discussions at the HOPS proposed RG meetings in Prague and >>> Yokohama, as well as at the RAIM workshop before Yokohama, we've = revised >>> the charter to reflect what we think the community wants out of such = an RG. >>> Note that given the slightly expanded scope of this charter, though, = we've >>> decided to rename the proposed RG to Measurement and Analysis for = Protocols >>> (MAP). >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Comments on the proposed charter below are welcome at hops@ietf.org: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>=20 >>> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was = envisioned. >>> Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than = that for >>> which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat = some >>> protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are = sometimes >>> reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and = Analysis >>> for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by >>> measurement with the aim to inform protocol engineering and = practice. >>>=20 >>> Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development = context, as well >>> as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can = benefit from >>> insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. = Likewise, Internet >>> measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts with = the IETF. >>> The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) Research = Group >>> aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two = communities, >>> supporting: >>>=20 >>> - exchange of measurement-derived insight, >>> - discussion of techniques for measurement relevant for protocol = engineering >>> and network operations, >>> - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and >>> - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community = to >>> introduce its efforts to the IETF >>>=20 >>> Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect = of Internet >>> operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to = protocol >>> engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF = protocols. >>>=20 >>> Membership >>> ---------- >>>=20 >>> Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. >>>=20 >>> Meetings >>> -------- >>>=20 >>> The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed = necessary by the >>> chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be = co- >>> located with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to = bridge the >>> gap between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP = RG >>> may also meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or = network >>> operator forums, as appopriate. >>>=20 >>> Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published = proceedings, >>> with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting = venue, >>> according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at = least one MAP >>> RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as = deemed >>> necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with = restricted >>> attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, = provided >>> that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the >>> community. >>>=20 >>> Chairs >>> ------ >>>=20 >>> Mirja K=FChlewind Dave Plonka >>> >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Many thanks, >>>=20 >>> Brian >> _______________________________________________ >> hops mailing list >> hops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops >=20 > -- > plonka@akamai.com http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/ Cambridge, MA >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hops mailing list > hops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hops --Apple-Mail=_B1F17C9F-1AF8-408D-B79C-8B7A03EA6C82 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWWwNAAAoJEIoSt78L6kajX2MP/irUoRc76cTNFKEw6jv+turt PzijWTiWfM3BDl3KLiHl/bs9CAaDSFXNWuoZ8VjED14r77j7rH1suQeqMdDlTFFh 4JjeVwUcNMlDoYxROuOKAJ0uxgc4eHW37TJOwJLzlk+YyvD1dk5dRZ2xRCHf7bOw LpjzKODbz1cTDwR5k8vUM8OR9a3xyOTB4irgOH1Tuj446hec13QheoAkuoivx6Ej MuNtKVFhnzSa3kcB/IxnnSDwDuke8yr4RwT5VImFMckGFDL5SZnko23WTAaFhlO6 q5meSRxeXuQvlI/aAmJcH9eM2Fpyj4p4IYVbf85C+Pd3imKdGcnD0Bv9Xjr9DAKW OAcgdmHtOBvqx2I1+pKDvJ2o3137kmLXbF5EuwPoXx0PpogdgKq+2RZKq74SqvAG VlYXeyySvwTCQXFcmgh5zQQD7dFlkuHTfFUJXGevES67CE+wS33AszQAKZynIZHy tnmZov7RZ6s/jsSLaxVUuwKw1jeJaaKxqhi8++RjDO8bKZAJ/ymK/z10Tc3Maipm I0ir/dVZABy71AWCNzautzDbriJGCdUYM6q8ng6kgfw/Y77/n55UPdXd7Ssmt43b qCoEnN3L4rvkiNko1ckHwU30zaXwUHq9gElSPac9NIAv/w9wYaEze+Bv63bhFmcf KD/PHMm10SAcnf0IoPbM =UI0b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B1F17C9F-1AF8-408D-B79C-8B7A03EA6C82--