From nobody Sun Jul 2 22:39:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9507A131449 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 22:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmNW6wA534Nl for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 22:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04DFD126D85 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 22:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRu4i-0005Yv-8H for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 07:39:09 +0200 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 07:39:06 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170703053906.t2ovkm663r6e3s3v@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="f6air42ki2owbnhw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: fe741e38e2a2daf11bd87aa0c4b7285b Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 05:39:15 -0000 --f6air42ki2owbnhw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="yit5bhy6npojjgxz" Content-Disposition: inline --yit5bhy6npojjgxz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, A new draft from Andrew and me. Looking forward to discuss it with you here= and in Prague. All the best, Niels PS Today is the last day to submit Internet Drafts for Prague. --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --yit5bhy6npojjgxz Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: internet-drafts@ietf.org Received: from mail.article19.org (LHLO mail.article19.org) (213.108.108.114) by mail.article19.org with LMTP; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 21:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B033E120689 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 21:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF79120683 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 21:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.article19.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id HdU2MyUiCABT for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 21:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay2.greenhost.nl (relay2.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.40]) by mail.article19.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86E11120682 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 21:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by relay2.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRmo6-0002Vg-Pe for niels@article19.org; Sun, 02 Jul 2017 23:53:31 +0200 Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A05DC12EC14; Sun, 2 Jul 2017 14:53:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: "Andrew Sullivan" , "Niels ten Oever" Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.55.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149903240865.17372.7035637322501917666.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2017 14:53:28 -0700 X-Greenhost-Tested: kewoighReik1 X-Greenhost-Spam-Level: / X-Greenhost-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_80,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL,RP_MATCHES_RCVD,SPF_PASS autolearn=disabled version=3.4.0 X-Greenhost-Spam-Score: -0.4 X-Virus-Scanned: by Greenhost Virus Scanner X-Scan-Signature: a350ae07b5350cdad28cef237d2e7179 A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Andrew Sullivan and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political Revision: 00 Title: On the Politics of Standards Document date: 2017-06-30 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 9 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00 Abstract: This document aims to outline different views on the relation between protocols and politics and seeks to answer the question whether protocols are political. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --yit5bhy6npojjgxz-- --f6air42ki2owbnhw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAllZ2HoACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMEBw//ZWWuTDB7tIl1NaSQvfClBWoenpEEoq54eRjtrH7rCsZoBywFbx3furGr D4iTwZLf9RpN5SFsm6uAI2yNe/41tC8LxPUfOuooY4WJzyJQVgLNn2U7roqle+hI TWzzZ5mB8s2bnsNBg3hbmdLtCIAdFKLeXY2Jfgyh1i6vITfnrdx36R8/IC7m2F4G fO8j1QX9JBHitk2xEybm7ACkhjWvmt17TPtbMuapc55J4d8C4RhhzwpQk8C3HXJH dzKAWgh84i0YSh4x67Spmoqyiq+C9yKS38eAjPaL+O+XbFnpzQ6n57f9COb8uiyX jTnQUpRZf85Dd+eORKJImKBwUKh4edeTBU6/BUYgL2AaC78j5goOJCcCdmLqv0UQ V54kO1dhii3EdSRf1N5Wam46yrw77U3Hn6YQJ4dHV6xG0ixYFxl1KSoMmZIR9tag Opwq/zi/IiiUa3VKu4aoP5hHouDxn6mgFUas9tXTE+L06qkufaezcwKqo8K6Jy6r oGIm9DDSJpM1QmytvTufuLif9oiJTjwsSEBBMD23EpZ/Mi9i52V6HCn52zrrUl+j bsT+iQAUm/VVQ+Nf8VzXBLqlFtf8uu2TIGaIvN9ITqScTrnMtQi8Ftwh1gxFyCXj ccxNojxCW4aDD883dgxrF2rxcWt1XQhjhuUVAnOCzGK0lVP3FBY= =xFuT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --f6air42ki2owbnhw-- From nobody Mon Jul 3 21:12:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60046129B11 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 21:12:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UjFgrFQUd97X for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22d.google.com (mail-pg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 080B6124C27 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id u62so103751674pgb.3 for ; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version; bh=a4nx/CN2riduVPw//yY6Uh+5lhBotIkVqLCu1XLHMck=; b=T0gGEeJNzeZXQQ071BJmAjay+uGR5x2+kBbwcPAkebY01FKj/qRNuhfGaG7ppXJ63R lnywvyj2gXvBwxzP1+JObt4niEp1K9lEJDJ1nMSRATDtDMuoy6kGi3Qzu89QF/3gdYLr 42jlJ0fqKkCXgRt8/jc4zJIjlHHM1oRmjG4EELnh9gHxped5oPwDxLU1nhFsZh8r0gXg ZTPDtJb5axk4VBL62ddnLyMnf2jWqKyhLD38Iplqy7QS7wtjaBSjWXCUJIEvHqvfBsdX iViDQs5x7IZnN7BOcbk2PBmWii6RJI4MYCzN2sIZ0vqlylzoxrLSp7+SqOMSg4T2kgBV LH3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version; bh=a4nx/CN2riduVPw//yY6Uh+5lhBotIkVqLCu1XLHMck=; b=FYCgAirpSAVU+tcVnmpykRdbe6YK3o7nrJjBF/D+7I6dIt8PfQNkyeb3jILC9wRb+U mX8yyos+N0xxofMTu5NOt8PwDLscKUOUQ8WEyMyyRObRtp1aOSeov6LIq8jf2osT4I9q t7E4Q8tFnELR5NOmT4wAbHqMHEZ/Z4A79EfwIbMiiczh96N3Ewk3pEKntaFma2HfipCG +C/Blz+f7KK8cR/yjFY+EPuZF6eSFEC4uWb73MzLDA7dJ+f6ScakM00iWiOLHETaLVP1 3tcDO7zbr8NTsvt/wpeLfCbuj30gz4/TKarFg1W8PKq5WHdEhjtDC3dlqdsneWD8zVPN 6PQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110tW7IDnLre6+Iv0jtMJVUkbHOe4Br7WDw5pZ4PBKV6RKWcSaqW jQspPDj7WFA0NjQxNS4= X-Received: by 10.99.125.20 with SMTP id y20mr13447888pgc.259.1499141549236; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 21:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-119-73-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.119.73]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u9sm40784075pfd.56.2017.07.03.21.12.28 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Jul 2017 21:12:28 -0700 (PDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 20:12:23 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oFknPKVm1Gr0NF6mKuX269rHFVQHEsCm9" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 04:12:31 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oFknPKVm1Gr0NF6mKuX269rHFVQHEsCm9 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="U4okMLX4mDMiAQqU3KdhNreIWwm40I1VN"; protected-headers="v1" From: Melinda Shore To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> Subject: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt --U4okMLX4mDMiAQqU3KdhNreIWwm40I1VN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a terrific topic and I'm glad to see this draft. A couple of quick comments: 1) I don't think the distinction between 3.4 and 3.5 is as clear as it could be. Or rather, it seemed clear in the first sentence of 3.5 and then got lost in the Postman quote. I'm not actually sure that 3.4 and 3.5 really are that different, effectively. 2) No mention was made of the Raven process (which resulted in RFC 2804). That was an instance where the IETF took a position that was largely political, although driven by a technical argument. It was similar to the process that led to 6973, in which something that occurred in the political space (CALEA, Snowden) engendered, in both cases, responses from the IETF that led to what I don't think is *simply* a process change. That is to say, I think it's a considerable oversimplification to characterize those as being just process changes. Thanks for an excellent start on this, Melinda --=20 Software longa, hardware brevis PGP fingerprint: 795A 714B CD08 F996 AEFE AB36 FE18 57E9 6B9D A293 --U4okMLX4mDMiAQqU3KdhNreIWwm40I1VN-- --oFknPKVm1Gr0NF6mKuX269rHFVQHEsCm9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZWxWnAAoJELiGRpM6HoEuwSYP/1JSu3qOP2mrRtQ01az4032u qz51LIQl0inDKbeOFosQtnTbi8LaIm2GHVSuS4xBWCpnvqFLxhoR41wS8wk1eMxa hxXRP6Pzq2X3j62CejAUtErdxRvbrHAey6szWQBQVe/FWK1ure1X73ZqemPcewmp lXLFpBF60lYy2NKJk0qgSWyWlClpNWyFmcBmayyiqh+aW7KGsV1DmLWk6NblNqsk C0HyKifoffGs6nAGKNnaeRZlDRNmCxeMzqQQ00Y1+dxODpxBDxuMg7SWzUSUmVMw RDGEm0ZRiKRDWG/WqmmLKule9oy9+AsDiOj2w8U87759leHN0dE5X1vMsY4Q7r8z /iFbPCnPdVwIT2onHX+RPn+z1cQa2/8J+syAOa73AKKu/7fMeH/LuunfdUdNWV2w Z93KHH+KEskiFyjHj47lvxiw8gXS6y+jNwCs8rH+u27638ZibVGwFcx7DMz9kXgL 0gJWBf8LDPXDJlI4TuNGimR9c1y2JVG8Cu6yV0rjp6cE0TG8Pq/VEOTUUsaSTDvJ ff+3rdopJxW0DuvGfd6NEuwx/kybgjRv+crlDYjO6EB+YfnXElvepe5RK2mjgFFD wYGDhzWBGXOigM3TjZrYOEBDU3bBee1YBh/7XmS45WJiRoTjIatuesB1DdZMloqu 0u6ILEIQn6FyFJIzQiiv =o02w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oFknPKVm1Gr0NF6mKuX269rHFVQHEsCm9-- From nobody Tue Jul 4 02:21:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DF8127275 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DOaKj8YYQBm1 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deliverix.ams-ix.net (deliverix-1.ams-ix.net [185.55.136.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DF33131C81 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:21:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at ams-ix.net Received: from [IPv6:2001:67c:1a8:104:253e:5398:3525:ecfc] (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:1a8:104:253e:5398:3525:ecfc]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: bastiaan) by deliverix.ams-ix.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A74FE40C6F; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 11:21:11 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Bastiaan Goslings In-Reply-To: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 11:21:11 +0200 Cc: Bastiaan Goslings , hrpc@irtf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <97017192-0E9F-47DA-8CDF-812508E60FBF@ams-ix.net> References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> To: Melinda Shore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 09:21:18 -0000 Hi all, > On 4 Jul 2017, at 06:12, Melinda Shore = wrote: >=20 > This is a terrific topic and I=E2=80=99m glad to see this draft. Absolutely. Very interesting, thanks a lot for all the work done and = sharing this milestone! Some comments, if I may.=20 (Disclaimer: I have not been part in the discussions leading up to this = draft, nor have I read the doc=E2=80=99s/RFC=E2=80=99s in the = references. I therefore take the draft at face value including the = quotes it contains.)=20 > 1) I don't think the distinction between 3.4 and 3.5 is > as clear as it could be. Or rather, it seemed clear in > the first sentence of 3.5 and then got lost in the Postman > quote. I'm not actually sure that 3.4 and 3.5 really are > that different, effectively. Yes. Maybe a stronger distinction between 3.4 and 3.5. can help. 3.4 states =E2=80=98A technology, once created, has its own logic that = is independent of the human actors that either create or use the = technology.=E2=80=99 While 3.5 argues, in my words, that protocols are = =E2=80=98inherently political=E2=80=99 as design influences (or even = stronger =E2=80=98determines=E2=80=99=E2=80=94> Postman) usage. I do not = think 3.4 and 3.5 are effectively saying the same thing, although the = design will obviously impact the =E2=80=98independent logic=E2=80=99 of = a technology. However, I think both 3.4 and 3.5 need to be more explicit and specific. = The way I read the draft is that the crux of the argument that leads to = =E2=80=98the need for a position=E2=80=99 in chapter 4, is to be found = in these two paragraphs. and to some extent in the so called = =E2=80=99pragmatic=E2=80=99 paragraph 3.3 =E2=80=98Some protocols are = political some times=E2=80=99. More importantly, I struggle with the line of reasoning in 3.4. (Indeed, maybe a =E2=80=98reference=E2=80=99 [CREF2] can clarify =E2=80=98= A technology, once created, has its own logic that is independent of the = human actors that either create or use the technology.=E2=80=99) I assume =E2=80=98the very existence of the automobile imposes physical = forms on the world different from those that come from the electric tram = or the horse-cart=E2=80=99 is meant as an example of a technology=E2=80=99= s =E2=80=98own logic=E2=80=99. To me it is unclear though what this = analogy illustrates. If one wants to stick to it, it might be good to = describe what =E2=80=98physical forms=E2=80=99 an =E2=80=98automobile = imposes on the world=E2=80=99, what the consequences are of this = supposedly independent and autonomous enforcement (=E2=80=99imposing=E2=80= =99) by a particular technology, why that is relevant, and how it = relates/compares to other technologies like the =E2=80=98electric tram = or the horse-cart=E2=80=99 which probably =E2=80=98impose=E2=80=99 = something else etc. I also do not understand the =E2=80=98Under this view, the technology = has its own needs and pressures, independent of those of human actors. = As it changes, it will change at least in part according to those needs = and pressures.=E2=80=99=20 Which (=E2=80=98this=E2=80=99) =E2=80=98view=E2=80=99 is being referred = to? Why, and what does =E2=80=99the technology has its own needs and = pressures=E2=80=99 mean? Same for =E2=80=98it will change at least in = part according to those needs and pressures=E2=80=99? Why is this = important in this context? What =E2=80=98needs=E2=80=99 does =E2=80=98the=E2=80=99 technology have = (which technology? =E2=80=98once created=E2=80=99?) and what potential = =E2=80=98pressures=E2=80=99? I have no idea what =E2=80=98having = pressures=E2=80=99 means btw. So. For me then the =E2=80=98result=E2=80=99 in 3.4=E2=80=99s last = sentence is not a logic conclusion: =E2=80=98Internet protocols express = at least to some extent the logic and values of the overall Internet = technology.=E2=80=99 Besides the fact I=E2=80=99d imagine Internet technology to express = =E2=80=98at least to some extent the logic and values=E2=80=99 of = Internet protocols, as the protocols come before the technology based on = them, what is =E2=80=98the overall Internet technology=E2=80=99 here? = And what =E2=80=98values=E2=80=99 does it have? =46rom 3.5: =E2=80=98Internet processes and protocols have become part and parcel of = political processes and public policies=E2=80=99: be that as it may, it = seems to me this is outside the realm of the IETF, i.e. protocols become = part of e.g. =E2=80=98political processes and public policies=E2=80=99 = after they have been designed, for instance within the IETF. =20 (And I agree with [CRFEF3])=20 Furthermore =E2=80=98According to [Abbate]: =E2=80=9Cprotocols are = politics by other means". This emphasises the interests that are at = play in the process of designing standards. This position holds further = that protocols can never be understood without their contextual = embeddedness=E2=80=99=20 Again, I have not read, in this case, Abbate=E2=80=99s paper. While I = personally can sympathise with the =E2=80=98contextual=E2=80=99 remark, = an =E2=80=98according to=E2=80=99 quote doesn=E2=80=99t prove nor = emphasise anything IMO, other than the fact that someone made the = statement. Which, at least in this draft, has no factual basis and = cannot (help) IMO to lead to (support) the conclusion in chapter 4. =20 Hope this makes sense, thanks again regards Bastiaan From nobody Tue Jul 4 04:22:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC82131F14 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 04:22:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6Ee8zD3rn49 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 04:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D988B131567 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 04:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5498FBE2F for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:22:17 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MA9dx4RCEt5e for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:22:17 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2163ABDCC for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:22:17 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1499167337; bh=FydGaXZ2aoGpxlsnu9B94J2R8BNNRntHqzhtadLQlVQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=KpdOL6vLg13G/4sH++T7W6kp/CeVmC6mQG8GjdxcWiQrmR4EcReT+Jfo4nlGllKHF cG/K8Hbthpkmec0CxnqDDE6pjOR9BF9QdXnwka0bqeLzOMC324uscClkyZn49aohaq ze6+N8m9vvjiwEjYSnCAf8DKIVnDimdHzztuT1To= To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:22:16 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="24nR74P7WFpvNepPMi4b6hS3XRtlpRjdb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 11:22:22 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --24nR74P7WFpvNepPMi4b6hS3XRtlpRjdb Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="UPOhRGhLdC9p9UqMNlJbaIHpBjgKG58FJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> --UPOhRGhLdC9p9UqMNlJbaIHpBjgKG58FJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 04/07/17 05:12, Melinda Shore wrote: > This is a terrific topic and I'm glad to see this draft. I agree it's a fun topic. I'm not sure if this'll end up as a useful draft or not though, but I figure it's worth exploring. My own quick comments: - I'm not sure this should try seek to "answer the question whether protocols are political" as I don't believe that's as useful as just fairly describing various positions on the topic. Maybe, after we've gotten the describing bit properly done, we'd be able to seek an answer, but I'm not sure that's worthwhile. - 3.3 basically reflects what'd be my starting position, but I don't agree that that position "requires that each protocol and use be evaluated" follows from that at all, at least not without a qualifier like "if you care about whether protocol-foo may be political..." - I think Andrew is right that some definition of how the term politics is used in this draft is needed. Does it encompass internal "politics" amongst IETF participants? Does it encompass company-internal, and intra-company politics? I'm not sure if the authors intended to include those or not. FWIW, I'd probably review a version of this in detail later, if the RG decide to adopt a later revision of this draft. As of now, I don't think it's baked enough for the RG to decide to do that yet, but discussing it seems useful, as the topic has come up a few times. Cheers, S. --UPOhRGhLdC9p9UqMNlJbaIHpBjgKG58FJ-- --24nR74P7WFpvNepPMi4b6hS3XRtlpRjdb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZW3poAAoJEC88hzaAX42iXUkH+wYAFxdy/m3gi7v8BowjqyjH tktCsML7YzQYyHJxi8UawngmliGJxEYef6DnhyFy5TFJjwJkLro5U2XK4RMsZM/4 YNY7tbeWXyqj2Dc5TDPgJXXuhS4Sdr25lZbmlQUaUjNYc7bAZOQmzDJul84Q5q7t LWC9cTG5cmioq4aMJ9XUE5s7cbOCzTilh3XadUf3XespDwrDRDsuAMBcQO71bLBk ozF+V/a52YY1+U0aTbWC6Y7fb+4rPze4FH8qGvB+V1DMCohHx2tWgG35bxnU0WSs zGsWccmMb5XOIYc2z15+vxeUQfVuCqtyYQ64OkT0q08x0zsu/XYwr6OpxFxw0aE= =zA0P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --24nR74P7WFpvNepPMi4b6hS3XRtlpRjdb-- From nobody Tue Jul 4 06:16:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9ACC13207D for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 06:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pqUTIZ1dy7oA for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 06:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EB67131891 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 06:15:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7964; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1499174159; x=1500383759; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=HOK7C+YcQpbpYLyB4xCE5Y8sN9Z9qD1nbdYwAmQ9dAI=; b=JU4fQA8zfRkIwfWEKjrBIGEAHm4TC4xsn6nmdO8loyu44kPWRdm4YAyX CovRUY3f8muLMjfe8mft55dHwvXQ+Cci27ZMUzWYbBc2KojTf3C3nt8a1 oizpUNtm38MoCiIWtCTuT9lCUlT3plLN6bBjjrWdT6JfMkPUWP8qjyqPG s=; X-Files: signature.asc : 481 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AlAQB4lFtZ/xbLJq1cGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgy6BDoEQg22KGXORApBUhSyCEQcaAQqFcAKDSBgBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIU?= =?us-ascii?q?ZAQEBAwEBIUsbCxgqAgInMAYBDAYCAQGIFgEMAYIHELA9giYpix0BAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEOCgWDJ4UtK4J5gwCEfYJhBZ8GhCmCHY0/iySGepUzHzg?= =?us-ascii?q?/SzEhCBsVSYcXPjaJKgEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,307,1496102400"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="653020669" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Jul 2017 13:15:55 +0000 Received: from [10.61.243.90] ([10.61.243.90]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v64DFsZN023258; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 13:15:54 GMT To: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 15:15:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UkmosLV6LtEl9L0Q0kMPRviJE0XnMOTLa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 13:16:03 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --UkmosLV6LtEl9L0Q0kMPRviJE0XnMOTLa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="d6gU17WBgt3EaEpOcsWd8N2A4Ibpwu3lG"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> In-Reply-To: --d6gU17WBgt3EaEpOcsWd8N2A4Ibpwu3lG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------565AA11AA84EEC51D82813B7" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------565AA11AA84EEC51D82813B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, It seems to me that the most interesting assertion in the draft is that the IETF are not protocol police. IMHO if the draft answered JUST that question, it would be worthwhile publishing. Certainly Gueren, Dovrolis, et al, would say that it is nearly impossible to change the waist of the hourglass. North and south of that point provides a little more room, but just try changing TLS or HTTP outside of the IETF.=20 Nuttin doin. At the same time, most phone/tablet apps bypass standards organizations for pretty much any sort of development. And oh by the way, in that case, who cares about the protocol or standards development since the endpoints are often coded by the same entity? (And when there is disagreement in that case, the word we seek is schizophrenia). And so perhaps the more refined question would be this: when is an SDO the protocol police? Eliot On 7/4/17 1:22 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 04/07/17 05:12, Melinda Shore wrote: >> This is a terrific topic and I'm glad to see this draft. > I agree it's a fun topic. I'm not sure if this'll end up > as a useful draft or not though, but I figure it's worth > exploring. > > My own quick comments: > > - I'm not sure this should try seek to "answer the > question whether protocols are political" as I don't > believe that's as useful as just fairly describing > various positions on the topic. Maybe, after we've > gotten the describing bit properly done, we'd be able > to seek an answer, but I'm not sure that's worthwhile. > > - 3.3 basically reflects what'd be my starting position, > but I don't agree that that position "requires that > each protocol and use be evaluated" follows from that > at all, at least not without a qualifier like "if you > care about whether protocol-foo may be political..." > > - I think Andrew is right that some definition of how > the term politics is used in this draft is needed. > Does it encompass internal "politics" amongst IETF > participants? Does it encompass company-internal, > and intra-company politics? I'm not sure if the > authors intended to include those or not. > > FWIW, I'd probably review a version of this in detail > later, if the RG decide to adopt a later revision of > this draft. As of now, I don't think it's baked enough > for the RG to decide to do that yet, but discussing it > seems useful, as the topic has come up a few times. > > Cheers, > S. > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------565AA11AA84EEC51D82813B7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

It seems to me that the most interesting assertion in the draft is that the IETF are not protocol police.=C2=A0 IMHO if the draft answer= ed JUST that question, it would be worthwhile publishing.=C2=A0 Certainl= y Gueren, Dovrolis, et al, would say that it is nearly impossible to change the waist of the hourglass.=C2=A0 North and south of that poin= t provides a little more room, but just try changing TLS or HTTP outside of the IETF.=C2=A0 Nuttin doin.=C2=A0 At the same time, most phone/tablet apps bypass standards organizations for pretty much any sort of development.=C2=A0 And oh by the way, in that case, who cares= about the protocol or standards development since the endpoints are often coded by the same entity?=C2=A0 (And when there is disagreement= in that case, the word we seek is schizophrenia).=C2=A0 And so perhaps t= he more refined question would be this: when is an SDO the protocol police?

Eliot

On 7/4/17 1:22 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:

On 04/07/17 05:12, Melinda Shore wrote:

This is a terrific topic and I'm glad to see this =
draft.

I agree it's a fun topic. I'm not sure if this'll end up
as a useful draft or not though, but I figure it's worth
exploring.

My own quick comments:

- I'm not sure this should try seek to "answer the
  question whether protocols are political" as I don't
  believe that's as useful as just fairly describing
  various positions on the topic. Maybe, after we've
  gotten the describing bit properly done, we'd be able
  to seek an answer, but I'm not sure that's worthwhile.

- 3.3 basically reflects what'd be my starting position,
  but I don't agree that that position "requires that
  each protocol and use be evaluated" follows from that
  at all, at least not without a qualifier like "if you
  care about whether protocol-foo may be political..."

- I think Andrew is right that some definition of how
  the term politics is used in this draft is needed.
  Does it encompass internal "politics" amongst IETF
  participants? Does it encompass company-internal,
  and intra-company politics? I'm not sure if the
  authors intended to include those or not.

FWIW, I'd probably review a version of this in detail
later, if the RG decide to adopt a later revision of
this draft. As of now, I don't think it's baked enough
for the RG to decide to do that yet, but discussing it
seems useful, as the topic has come up a few times.

Cheers,
S.




_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@=
irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

--------------565AA11AA84EEC51D82813B7-- --d6gU17WBgt3EaEpOcsWd8N2A4Ibpwu3lG-- --UkmosLV6LtEl9L0Q0kMPRviJE0XnMOTLa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZW5UKAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozDpgH/0fmIhuZbujoybvCn+O7yTW8 mS4i98/PxotISdga2Qt2bCYdt1nlaibv7Ytf6lQJUipUc7eL4hccLYOl2dHzFxq3 YSZ1eC1weDia84tT0R7zoEKzE879qs1GjuNsUvnHWIrG0eYfNXGNiZZDDhWF4bbZ hx51O77SvnU1UQpTjqfLme+lykTtkrjd7TVM0KpMpOwFGS8Ua+dHVEYcIu2NqtPc v1xU/R7ghFRhYovUQ86f0GGkkuvtY1WnSycUmdJbERDLNFKB+lYC1A6u5bq3nBxn ho7NGkQ2EunmATYfy1baL/kfWkDOObclpifZ0Mrn4CyhQq/LAaH5+mpTczvzSnQ= =23Pp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UkmosLV6LtEl9L0Q0kMPRviJE0XnMOTLa-- From nobody Thu Jul 6 01:44:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073161287A0 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 01:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p-0bKLlx12d6 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 01:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8145A1270A3 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 01:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dT2OK-000774-Nm; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 10:44:05 +0200 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 10:43:57 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Eliot Lear Cc: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hxq4mdwleu2dharj" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 3cea6f85c46863b7448b52c7b19d39b8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 08:44:10 -0000 --hxq4mdwleu2dharj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eliot, On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 03:15:53PM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi, >=20 > It seems to me that the most interesting assertion in the draft is that > the IETF are not protocol police. IMHO if the draft answered JUST that > question, it would be worthwhile publishing. Certainly Gueren, > Dovrolis, et al, would say that it is nearly impossible to change the > waist of the hourglass. North and south of that point provides a little > more room, but just try changing TLS or HTTP outside of the IETF.=20 > Nuttin doin. At the same time, most phone/tablet apps bypass standards > organizations for pretty much any sort of development. And oh by the > way, in that case, who cares about the protocol or standards development > since the endpoints are often coded by the same entity? (And when there > is disagreement in that case, the word we seek is schizophrenia). And > so perhaps the more refined question would be this: when is an SDO the > protocol police? Should I conclude from this that you think that because the IETF does not h= ave total control, it has no responsibilities whatsoever? I think the IETF has responsibility over what it produces, and should think= about what the (intended and unintended) consequences of that might be. No= thing more, but defintely also nothing less. Best, Niels >=20 > Eliot >=20 > On 7/4/17 1:22 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > > On 04/07/17 05:12, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> This is a terrific topic and I'm glad to see this draft. > > I agree it's a fun topic. I'm not sure if this'll end up > > as a useful draft or not though, but I figure it's worth > > exploring. > > > > My own quick comments: > > > > - I'm not sure this should try seek to "answer the > > question whether protocols are political" as I don't > > believe that's as useful as just fairly describing > > various positions on the topic. Maybe, after we've > > gotten the describing bit properly done, we'd be able > > to seek an answer, but I'm not sure that's worthwhile. > > > > - 3.3 basically reflects what'd be my starting position, > > but I don't agree that that position "requires that > > each protocol and use be evaluated" follows from that > > at all, at least not without a qualifier like "if you > > care about whether protocol-foo may be political..." > > > > - I think Andrew is right that some definition of how > > the term politics is used in this draft is needed. > > Does it encompass internal "politics" amongst IETF > > participants? Does it encompass company-internal, > > and intra-company politics? I'm not sure if the > > authors intended to include those or not. > > > > FWIW, I'd probably review a version of this in detail > > later, if the RG decide to adopt a later revision of > > this draft. As of now, I don't think it's baked enough > > for the RG to decide to do that yet, but discussing it > > seems useful, as the topic has come up a few times. > > > > Cheers, > > S. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --hxq4mdwleu2dharj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlld+E0ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLN3aA//dM/A13lNNiFIj5zI5VM82YTlTpC42s9WeB+3MKnrxz/Q6MxtpdO22zFy C+MrxydxDF15Ws3da59qu2HUoPU3UOeLZKB6Fk1DVTS1Pn/uGPEP3ohks30FGRZd HWoAEMmHHUmiAfYAukTdWR/BbRthrOXT0YOBr4Zombj8jILbOY4ZoC9aIg/UFpYf sLAialZdt9Z4ld04pyi0lnfoEMYjgO/UywlHWzyLCHIKTxXYoiW1V5Scw6fpKppd vUMBxUYNPrIT1ZRmt6oiz98DlCPwo8SErpGPGoULGZRPVY6tYOcEvRgedQWby3m3 DA2V8j5sN1xGa/1rseZYQ+ZMynQJ0Y6xXVOp/Gxp0iNbVhzXnH1P+kfkvn24+Z/B ENS+FJG7duhGhcrlrQdrI5/pcPIC29sxdltpDGbg6/RksqK477d6L1DIf+Gz2HlJ 3+PewMne8M1sUcbDRfT+gyLG+AizbRJ9+3HJK6YbDkPHAf2siVihx2WTPhcvG/gy p8xVHKCK7KvR/lXTFDymViQH6KDq7LHpBil96CWX4Uzks++0SP2Et2jJHq9PTlpC GxkbAjVCXpO33Hqsfy4GsEvBZj/xW4qbzWdaGlndkrwFHAZbF6n/zqV134jVOoHX mCVPV/68hNOLVjWmLwLqh1e3Od4ToaDfHgGl0CuH5LI3KrKJPFA= =u3wb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hxq4mdwleu2dharj-- From nobody Tue Jul 11 00:52:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02AC1319C9 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 00:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1usTKcumT__r for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A62F41319C8 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 00:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dUpxn-0001Kn-Pr for hrpc@irtf.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 09:52:07 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <262f2241-1cb7-d672-6ad3-9873d901952c@article19.org> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 09:52:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AAwKMqJVC3Otku9wCK3bk6lDIi21s3vhb" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 7006e789400ccdeb5065f5d065827fb5 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] agenda and presenter changes X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:52:13 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AAwKMqJVC3Otku9wCK3bk6lDIi21s3vhb Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Q4EinVCkLrRhqaHG4R2WUO9h5eEJ1WiQ2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <262f2241-1cb7-d672-6ad3-9873d901952c@article19.org> Subject: agenda and presenter changes --Q4EinVCkLrRhqaHG4R2WUO9h5eEJ1WiQ2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, Due to personal circumstances Sandra Braman is not able to hold her talk for us during our session. Luckily Avri managed to secure Milton Mueller of Georgia Tech for a talk called: 'Requiem for a Dream: on advancing human rights through internet architecture' as it now has also been reflected in the agenda. This promises to be a stimulating talk which will probably result in a fruitful discussion. At the same time we're talking with Sandra to see whether she might be able to come to IETF100. Looking forward to see you all Friday next week. All the best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --Q4EinVCkLrRhqaHG4R2WUO9h5eEJ1WiQ2-- --AAwKMqJVC3Otku9wCK3bk6lDIi21s3vhb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAllkg6UACgkQDtg/OkaK yLP96g/+N9YH5JlRcZ5uYMenzO07F0pokJQSSnsJRZG/LDuAx6P4oU1CBB8Au+3p p4XEamZK+W0qup84jg5lg1SjZekxSZOIHzEzakndSVTdqDRO48QEQDgtFbjFjFwG 9YOOjJtADDWGt6xcvjTIGyJmb8GHG7BOkxiHm8VzLixOJx5X0GQHh6EQdQZCvX7n 8u9hgyCdo/nFRLpR8j62q/Y/sQBvZkIlA0EwH55fjETZGYByutLoE21aWsL3O++w fHkkN9SYMWDs8MdPcV/IWgb+etZwPt1GVrg5DCR1i6Ln+XQssi3afIm4rS4HG+28 YBRA9GhReIUqC8ssIZWHkvocGETp9A1VoTA+pXeV0KhU5/vKThGFLTtRxnAah0eb /Lqjm8aotAIZV/2jMMZ1wv6rwBtvJCAd8bIu+eM55ueBbH6KtxilfisHlzzoXH9n NhQn8z+zzqYnxOvBrmikBJWQFWGyoVr3eGhkDBT9FXS+7YJacDuNrKcrTuW3moBG OdvZcN5ZBxW7aMIbgn/sGdKDV7KO2pFS/3pWjBXa4x948ExxKvYTZnHYMSFhwrKj EB1v4BTZ3BJvD3t4tOkv4vbZHrFGwfno0wca3XW4w1Lfo8kKueRkCnxp+HJ6Xi0k raBUBnClntJV37xMiAmwOgwALm7yrBeijkrw7Iy7zFycCeCZ36k= =mOWe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AAwKMqJVC3Otku9wCK3bk6lDIi21s3vhb-- From nobody Wed Jul 12 12:42:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D976212EA74 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2726; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1499888542; x=1501098142; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=gj+SE9YxjDHDK5l864ZlLiU1i9UOBrxH7056woHrn3E=; b=VawnV4YnYjN4PongKLwYhpc6XrgXNYQD7ifGtyXp5h7CA9E/+O91OiwX dN18SKLIfwRfIhEgZ7Q8/o9x5r8ZsfS7rmlCbnlhHsV/H483gIRWj0zQA gzcj4UNLfMjaemh1VeBFyhMP1FB1ZDLFQ2HXPKetqIWkNuL33MRH2BUYQ Y=; X-Files: signature.asc : 481 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DAAAD3emZZ/xbLJq1dGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBUYJekCxzkFwilgOCEQeFbwKEEBgBAgEBAQEBAQFrKIUZAQUjVhA?= =?us-ascii?q?LGCoCAlcGDQgBARCIBgEMAYIHrVqCJosiAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBD?= =?us-ascii?q?g+DKIUuKwuCbod9gmEBBJ8ohCqCHY1IiyaGf5VRHziBCjEhCBsVh2E+iQ8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,351,1496102400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="695770427" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 12 Jul 2017 19:42:18 +0000 Received: from [10.61.88.54] (ams3-vpn-dhcp6199.cisco.com [10.61.88.54]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v6CJgIOl017538; Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:42:18 GMT To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 10:57:16 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8QfdX6ijddNc83e8RtgK1MtORAogq5LRC" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:42:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --8QfdX6ijddNc83e8RtgK1MtORAogq5LRC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="9RgdiP2vK9V1QvpjihS1F4Trq7OtmXxCt"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Niels ten Oever Cc: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> In-Reply-To: <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> --9RgdiP2vK9V1QvpjihS1F4Trq7OtmXxCt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi Niels, On 7/6/17 10:43 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Eliot, > > On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 03:15:53PM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: >> Hi, >> >> It seems to me that the most interesting assertion in the draft is tha= t >> the IETF are not protocol police. =20 >> [...] > Should I conclude from this that you think that because the IETF does n= ot have total control, it has no responsibilities whatsoever? Quite the opposite! In the draft, you made an assertion, perhaps as an aside, that the IETF are not protocol police, the inference being based on our statements again and again that these are voluntary community-driven standards. My point is to question just how and when they really are "voluntary" . Indeed if we conclude that some standards are LESS voluntary than we think they are, then we have commensurately MORE responsibilities. But the formulation of this concept of "voluntary" should be well examined before we go too far down that line, and this additional step would be a good day's work in and of itself. Eliot --9RgdiP2vK9V1QvpjihS1F4Trq7OtmXxCt-- --8QfdX6ijddNc83e8RtgK1MtORAogq5LRC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZXfttAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozv5AIALokdlhj8e6UZ3FK8nPiMaFG jyI7MVyMz/c6P315bsXf1lr4krhpyIatNSoFlPfZKAG2uaXeARXMyfNIAHNEBHUb Rqtvb3251eaI7w/GpwfcWysvIKF7R02Z9cMmRV29XhUGbQEd5bIpVRnMDYF171UQ I/ly4YvWVx1wxK80/TdsakNojb1TNhSKyPLsF3OCrtu/JqEhya6a2koveKUMEOBw tl5gAzuqml1eg0zsPjB3gMdcfN3xeMzZ1GRzpbCGnmXNxm5jeRPol5EcZJbEj3OU rAVXGpOvixcN5G4S0BIKYjOpNbKAXYv2bOZlMbOdZWBeD8mNOgqXMtoEQ4UJUnY= =k2Y2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8QfdX6ijddNc83e8RtgK1MtORAogq5LRC-- From nobody Thu Jul 13 04:44:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D716413166B for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 04:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Odhu0Q8fNQM for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 04:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6A54131535 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 04:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dVcXG-0006bq-F5; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 13:43:58 +0200 To: Eliot Lear Cc: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 13:43:56 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rif3eudvq5Tvve6aKEQaUQBpGVMELerBG" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a9e4b997d6a751f3e45cb47a3c2b1d2c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:44:09 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rif3eudvq5Tvve6aKEQaUQBpGVMELerBG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FxigB5AWleraofktSjn2kfAORJB7CQeW1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Eliot Lear Cc: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-00.txt References: <50539136-8c2a-dfb7-7b07-9c242f0cf305@nomountain.net> <2ba43f57-2db0-048d-7dc1-03125e1b34ea@cisco.com> <20170706084357.s6ryuz3qcpuocpur@mir> In-Reply-To: --FxigB5AWleraofktSjn2kfAORJB7CQeW1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Elliot, This is a great point, and I somehow just accepted the assumption that Internet standards are voluntary, but I think you are totally right. I think this would be very interesting to discuss in Prague in the discussion of the draft. I'll add in a slide on this. Cheers, Niels Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 On 07/06/2017 10:57 AM, Eliot Lear wrote: > Hi Niels, >=20 >=20 > On 7/6/17 10:43 AM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Hi Eliot, >> >> On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 03:15:53PM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> It seems to me that the most interesting assertion in the draft is th= at >>> the IETF are not protocol police. =20 >>> [...] >> Should I conclude from this that you think that because the IETF does = not have total control, it has no responsibilities whatsoever? >=20 > Quite the opposite! In the draft, you made an assertion, perhaps as an= > aside, that the IETF are not protocol police, the inference being based= > on our statements again and again that these are voluntary > community-driven standards. My point is to question just how and when > they really are "voluntary" . Indeed if we conclude that some standard= s > are LESS voluntary than we think they are, then we have commensurately > MORE responsibilities. But the formulation of this concept of > "voluntary" should be well examined before we go too far down that line= , > and this additional step would be a good day's work in and of itself. >=20 > Eliot >=20 --FxigB5AWleraofktSjn2kfAORJB7CQeW1-- --rif3eudvq5Tvve6aKEQaUQBpGVMELerBG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAllnXPwACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNhNw//ak0HlOhfsncYZ/oUgQ7LjeaQegg9IVjkNk8stthaIMRTJ6hPKpwZE1Ob RT0TAP78Ldbjp2YLuShUOXtCVNU54jCpAfzOrkGswUyhaqFwSxOay4hzLZ9AyYpb +1XDdZ3Q2v7eZalaNRZt2xwP5ejfqkrDUG2TC+mqVeN2UWsPKKpIMjazrb122kuj SW+D3bYxGbV13g8yimgjSpVXBFUlAQQYvdzCzZUSjrrS7ZeKi85d3BHXFeFkIBc3 Mlx/jiLtohMPR1OWMA7t1ezHbvTvKrQPfFKLYKJgssA6mqWy2bLcVNgVoP4gxg17 6LmH2dhDJpDVzADEQNHNLnE8wfZf6ruX/j3gLAMglXOwB37fS8NBC6+F4B7eh6U3 XfL3z0EUK9HYkI8bfbDl15Gf/GhiAFRMnRmZZwx+9Ghba3pXwbbJvdROD0ccoK5R Oy7A0trWOGC3qn/pHctQZeWnkJgKqrzWkD+B6dXnH5VLGGUHisK/T5eDcx/dtwlw 4+06JoEYwH0vHKfozbK8v8XCavC8VGjXVm9yVcQEwewLHnUhUAcWDLw5wCUTSGcj /Niy9jtwZ02CQh04c67U4x/V7QRlY3KZHMU54wjMQP+FUZ5jelNXBrHHXfeQbKl8 B9Mz8A06hLD+SR7cGVSTAk+PYY8VNGf/9qzdbSmrl3k8bCS7ZdI= =T+or -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rif3eudvq5Tvve6aKEQaUQBpGVMELerBG-- From nobody Mon Jul 17 00:25:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C73131A50; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:25:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: hrpc@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.56.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150027630133.32461.18199899602807986214@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:25:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] I-D Action: draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 07:25:01 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations of the IETF. Title : Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations Authors : Niels ten Oever Corinne Cath Filename : draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14.txt Pages : 74 Date : 2017-07-17 Abstract: This document aims to propose guidelines for human rights considerations, similar to the work done on the guidelines for privacy considerations [RFC6973]. If you want to apply this work to your own, you can directly go to Section 6. The rest of the document explains the background of the guidelines and how they were developed. This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published for informational purposes. This informational document has consensus for publication from the Internet Research Task Force (IRTF) Human Right Protocol Considerations Research Group. It is the first milestone in a longer term research effort and has been reviewed both by the research group and by individuals from outside the research group. Many of the topics discussed are still under discussion in the research group and will be subjects of continuing research. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-hrpc-research/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 17 02:17:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EAD12EA95 for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:17:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYvP6kQUqJzQ for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 958E8126E3A for ; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dX29z-0006wC-PH for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:17:48 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:17:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Rs9o9kE0H2pXxQ7o2hVBvGaUqkNE9igsg" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 388a8ff653e0601f0215f26536afca72 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] hackathon outcomes X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:17:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Rs9o9kE0H2pXxQ7o2hVBvGaUqkNE9igsg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="84MwXBKMvglkBDmF0RTPAEaHIhKonDrLW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: hackathon outcomes --84MwXBKMvglkBDmF0RTPAEaHIhKonDrLW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The IETF99 hackahon project which focused on RFC7725 - HTTP Status Code 451 led to quite a few outcomes, about which you'll be updated during the hrpc session on Friday. Aside from quite some code for crawlers, a wordpress plugin, and a browser plugin, also human rights considerations for RFC7725 as well as a implementation report were produced, you can review them here: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-451-imp-report-00.txt https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-manyfolks-hrcrfc7725-00.txt It might be interesting to discuss how we can take these documents furthe= r. Thanks hackathon-ers for the work! Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --84MwXBKMvglkBDmF0RTPAEaHIhKonDrLW-- --Rs9o9kE0H2pXxQ7o2hVBvGaUqkNE9igsg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAllsgLoACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMJrQ/8CUbaCWBgIzVUtv2HDgp814WCNO2rHx+myJW1Mii+7ImB5jEnD4Z+Zf4M tN4/0ZE413m60FS7qzeg0v4oAI4/OPvNlSiZT7luGTyTnz0YX/RzDQXtmReroXQB TT2sS56hU+KvzdAA6D8QtZrfXeq6UygcVY0Rsx6j8NZcnKcW0YuSdfFlw6kWiYG/ rNWWrUUvk1ryYijT1ClFegNCgUnMvjf+ofRxG7Tp0MXF4r/2xcpam/tyc/dit5K0 /sdx9Ivf5nw/k8qCqnwj0bUhylbHb4bv7R49o879auIEBvGqJhHI137Sqf/mbzpj YgStilKUuTa461VhEJPfuvFnGgZDSt0+FwjLe8/gk7OCkM6/ZiX86nzomqd/nAO7 svlJzV5dRG3zOlsQj1MU8WCQIQ9Tim4Ff0hXg6A1CrDBrQ9IC6pB+aqjEVgtnGhT yXFVvlAjR6XJhMdjNuHXMhmIZPoDV4H1EgifS/wR/oFQ2mC63iwHEzZvwhiaAakc gWcOaR42IeHUL4Pw3NhsEsOhjwgkeGn0XDxSQ6qoxgTIhtpFhWzal6+LV96kqqX/ srEPpg/xwiAeJH6ZKmrW55XCky6BUIwb6B03nDBjrnJwiUWzqqE1A5nlijgo7kBl 43NWYOpec7Imo2Hth90xsb2+IDmVqgLUklLJJTN7JNIuj/4a3FM= =f2tz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Rs9o9kE0H2pXxQ7o2hVBvGaUqkNE9igsg-- From nobody Tue Jul 18 05:32:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584C4131DFC for ; Tue, 18 Jul 2017 05:32:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.56.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150038116535.11320.6104187889515131872.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 05:32:45 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Milestones changed for hrpc RG X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:32:45 -0000 Added milestone "Submit Research Into Human Rights Protocol Considerations for publication as an Informational RFC (IRTF Track)", due August 2017. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/hrpc/about/ From nobody Thu Jul 20 07:19:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B74512704A for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:19:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tAiq9H3DOMXv for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FD371276AF for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dYCI8-0003f8-7r for hrpc@irtf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:19:01 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:18:59 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lopjamuwtbsknac6" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: eb84bc049aa50d59c182d1adb242eeac Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:19:05 -0000 --lopjamuwtbsknac6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="csfi6ic4ta2xbc6a" Content-Disposition: inline --csfi6ic4ta2xbc6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Andrew and I sat together and did a 'draft-sprint' in which we (among other= things) have tried to integrate the discussions on the list based on the -= 00 draft. Looking forward to discuss the -00 draft tomorrow in the session, but if pe= ople have time we might even be able to touch upon some of the expansions h= ere and see if we're going in the right direction. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --csfi6ic4ta2xbc6a Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: internet-drafts@ietf.org Received: from mail.article19.org (LHLO mail.article19.org) (213.108.108.114) by mail.article19.org with LMTP; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AF58120694 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.article19.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9741206A4 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.article19.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.article19.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8m4yNUyYhXyn for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from relay1.greenhost.nl (relay1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.39]) by mail.article19.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2AC4120694 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by relay1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dYAqC-0006PR-6u for niels@article19.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:46:04 +0200 Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A106F131C31; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:46:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: "Andrew Sullivan" , "Niels ten Oever" Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.57.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150055476265.22410.13781823643683449194.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 05:46:02 -0700 X-Greenhost-Spam-Level: --- X-Greenhost-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_60,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,RP_MATCHES_RCVD,SPF_PASS autolearn=disabled version=3.4.0 X-Greenhost-Spam-Score: -3.7 X-Virus-Scanned: by Greenhost Virus Scanner X-Scan-Signature: a350ae07b5350cdad28cef237d2e7179 A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political Revision: 01 Title: On the Politics of Standards Document date: 2017-07-20 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 Abstract: This document aims to outline different views on the relation between protocols and politics and seeks to answer the question whether protocols are political. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --csfi6ic4ta2xbc6a-- --lopjamuwtbsknac6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAllwu9IACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNn8A//XGggWbh6DtUDEMQgY58OfjsNuUupKSogxO4NdgD1V9AxqipOn6AhHaHh h1G+E+1VO8DlVxvV3u53v/nORX0Z5XwGE6VcypeRQpsxD+uXktsbSC+eXNTyh2SM s8+67c8WltLxt8E0L2WdQuWMR6icNi8TA0gy16X1TBoHFKg0p0rcjkgT/6jbR6F6 Afm4Bu1txmdqs2bXpxUbHAz9+IZVHNCZy8YpRFZyniq8zoGc8Yw4Eth9wvBWbEuW +3+yvUOJnKdd9aGSTM3ME+nj7KPvAqNrJvd2Of+vjh7AeQsAndTGwJHeJaDfrOdB CCUjeui48K3/Zif954An7CbRt+QEnybgi30w2xmRd1MWWtte5mEBO4e7V6OtGMXP tkPLTBhSZ7sZTdOUaRvf/uowNbLojYZI/9M6JZL++av8XOPcOdI1mmQ1sJ4d/AVt hHDLsbskLSNJqSFw8tTCexPhyr7lE93OSAoBV/mBo+Wwh68Ct5dBsqOObZyHrkOE xapq8iKazIZVD9fpkanMG/v7XVCButYorpwEXAgnCG7NhxHaf45bGY+lvC4Ws1/n BARlBCGcsasdPOlCCM3nw+mSl6X3dWRIk9QIcmP5aHPIfkWTrsKgqVcMnJDY801A hUueyzBVC32EAw9wzJFBPkVU7QEukrkl5FKmIRoAOAMQP/j4IOI= =FpCp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lopjamuwtbsknac6-- From nobody Thu Jul 20 23:58:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E46D126DFF for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:58:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M239fAk5axLH for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACFD6124D85 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 23:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 78B3928054B; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 72B612806BD; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (relay01.prive.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:15::11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C03B28054B; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69004605763F; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 59F4840C63; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:58:26 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170721065826.fzivqmio74mxj76a@nic.fr> References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.0 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-3-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000419, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2017.7.21.64216 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 06:58:30 -0000 On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 04:18:59PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote a message of 161 lines which said: > Andrew and I sat together and did a 'draft-sprint' in which we > (among other things) have tried to integrate the discussions on the > list based on the -00 draft. Thanks to you, I've read RFC 603, I found it interesting but I still do not understand why it's mentioned in -01 :-) From nobody Fri Jul 21 08:21:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61DD131B05 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csU5fs5r535m for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fece:1902]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D55FD1317A4 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 902CD31CE6; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:21:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D02C0EC0BB2; Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:20:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 17:20:33 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170721152033.GA4434@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 16.04 (xenial) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Two examples of drafts that have political consequences X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 15:21:09 -0000 If you meet people who say "IETF does purely technical work, we don't do politics", here are two good current examples that may seem technical but have political consequences. The first one is the most obvious, because it has clear privacy risks and they are acknowledged in the draft: draft-tale-dnsop-edns0-clientid "Client ID in Forwarded DNS Queries" proposes to add something in the DNS requests that will identify the client. This is already done in some proprietary products like Cisco Umbrella , which uses the MAC address or the device serial number. As expected, the discussion in DNSOP was the usual "It is deployed, better to document it, so we could at least add some protections" vs. "Bad ideas must not be published, it may be seen as endorsment". The second one is more subtle. draft-ietf-tls-dnssec-chain-extension "A DANE Record and DNSSEC Authentication Chain Extension for TLS" describes a way to send DNSSEC records required for DANE authentication into the TLS session, instead of having to retrieve them from the DNS. It may reduce latency, and solve some bootstrap problems (using DANE to authentify a DNS resolver…) But a consequence is that the TLS client must accepts the same root trust anchor as the TLS server, which prevents the use of signed alternative DNS roots. I do not claim it is ground for rejection, just that technical choices constrain what you can do with the network. From nobody Sat Jul 22 08:38:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F830131DFE for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:38:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AEiKSlrP4T-l for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fece:1902]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9EFA131DB6 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id B483B31D27; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 17:38:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.sources.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7E616CBFCA; Sat, 22 Jul 2017 17:35:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 17:35:19 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170722153519.GA17039@sources.org> References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 8.8 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 15:38:12 -0000 On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 04:18:59PM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote a message of 161 lines which said: > Looking forward to discuss the -00 draft tomorrow in the session, > but if people have time we might even be able to touch upon some of > the expansions here and see if we're going in the right direction. As I said at the mic in Prague, I'm not sure of the goal of the draft. It overlaps a good part of draft-irtf-hrpc-research. If the idea is to make a shorter version (draft-irtf-hrpc-research is big), with explanations targeted to the regular IETF user, fine. I just would like to be sure it is the goal. Also, section 9 "How voluntary are open standards?" seems to me unclear. Is it about "voluntary participation to their creation" (the open nature of IETF) or "voluntary deployment after the RFC are published" (the IETF is not a protocol police)? From nobody Mon Jul 24 04:02:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A103131C89 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pFm8PifUNvfq for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73098129A92 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dZb7p-0005DH-Jg; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:02:09 +0200 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:02:08 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170724110208.qbj7cjghzpznpls6@mir> References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> <20170722153519.GA17039@sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i46rzxaa6kbxc7ar" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170722153519.GA17039@sources.org> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: d40e2d9e04d28df092fb73f3743f8c9c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:02:18 -0000 --i46rzxaa6kbxc7ar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephane, On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 05:35:19PM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 04:18:59PM +0200, > Niels ten Oever wrote=20 > a message of 161 lines which said: >=20 > > Looking forward to discuss the -00 draft tomorrow in the session, > > but if people have time we might even be able to touch upon some of > > the expansions here and see if we're going in the right direction. >=20 > As I said at the mic in Prague, I'm not sure of the goal of the > draft. It overlaps a good part of draft-irtf-hrpc-research. I think there is a difference between human rights and politics, whether hu= man rights are political, not all politics are human rights.=20 >=20 > If the idea is to make a shorter version (draft-irtf-hrpc-research is > big), with explanations targeted to the regular IETF user, fine. I > just would like to be sure it is the goal. >=20 I think this draft aims to think further, but it will defintely be shorter.= I think I will also start a guidelines draft, in which I put the guideles = =66rom the research doc so we can improve it will writing considerations. > Also, section 9 "How voluntary are open standards?" seems to me > unclear. Is it about "voluntary participation to their creation" (the > open nature of IETF) or "voluntary deployment after the RFC are > published" (the IETF is not a protocol police)? >=20 The latter. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --i46rzxaa6kbxc7ar Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAll107AACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNIig/+Nw14P9RT8TsMKTdELQ7liTYK0i+biABEzAU15mbCKWwvo3rGGmGPfYBI yOLBlsmLVhEgw8gLQ0sFlmOR/qJg6sLRlt72F+I1X9Emj2soCrNKRr75iDuYf6vr uFzLmA8avj50nuxZh6H85fswQ4iPNRZGyaYT4YXjLihXedlJ2l7dZuDlf/P8RspF wkArNFw2lb2jFU2H9AtRT/pJmBWoR6NtT0B7c1D++jZK1JrVppa7PAbUh6DirGii I66HscvHxeXrtIkznWjLfvfWugh9ed0Q0QkSilwBZRD/L2jWywsYpoXD+SGVetP0 ME0qKNugeHwZ2o4OhsCqDIGz+lOM27+Ew5XKkzuTZjbQQq17zRhZ3QND6UjnHHzu AkIT3t1gM6eY41fX/ULCGh9zfow2KZ3fBYDh7wL9/Jrq7QcYw7+5w89lj46+yGdc Nc3ROnOn85JmY06b9IrIo9aX0q3R6jYBkQn7lOf7FW1MSrI1yzprZYaEor6ngiZI OQkNNPxd9XfBi+XiRtfm/X9M1OD+mdi4AqKyRQiEeRnW8By9l0poUOqArSA0dm2p vlgojevNj/vv+glvTn8PHTVB8YGqvnONHcRd1X3LvPmPU4u+6fVuiZRBRz4PQwQC k7bc0/p/JfIQCr43wAJIzQTFxVllU3nM1Tp/K6Zm5QR1q9PjCDc= =F9r+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --i46rzxaa6kbxc7ar-- From nobody Mon Jul 24 04:09:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67341131C95 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vn-XTIvrw3ud for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AABDF131C94 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dZbFA-0006cA-4l; Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:09:44 +0200 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> <20170721065826.fzivqmio74mxj76a@nic.fr> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:09:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170721065826.fzivqmio74mxj76a@nic.fr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="nt2ni94mpMnJdaJIMI2nCe3EhIJKApXh0" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 7006e789400ccdeb5065f5d065827fb5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:09:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --nt2ni94mpMnJdaJIMI2nCe3EhIJKApXh0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oD1K9bipswrEUF3Ok3Bj4GUfgEJhqb5Ng"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> <20170721065826.fzivqmio74mxj76a@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20170721065826.fzivqmio74mxj76a@nic.fr> --oD1K9bipswrEUF3Ok3Bj4GUfgEJhqb5Ng Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/21/2017 08:58 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 04:18:59PM +0200, > Niels ten Oever wrote=20 > a message of 161 lines which said: >=20 >> Andrew and I sat together and did a 'draft-sprint' in which we >> (among other things) have tried to integrate the discussions on the >> list based on the -00 draft. >=20 > Thanks to you, I've read RFC 603, I found it interesting but I still > do not understand why it's mentioned in -01 :-) >=20 Thanks for catching that! It should've been RFC613: "Network topology is a complicated political and economic question with obvious technical overtones." Cheers, Niels --oD1K9bipswrEUF3Ok3Bj4GUfgEJhqb5Ng-- --nt2ni94mpMnJdaJIMI2nCe3EhIJKApXh0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAll11XcACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMhzRAAgrZCTSso15JWKsMGSTPL+Uctu6fO2Qu9/HFBo8wVTpHMgZB3hwqcqRvg 541Zb3elqiCArmtrVUoEBk8DGe6kbMd5iJuJph3kLMcIAWuLFBI7nIdsvlUsEkVv CbVD9UgdEkyqClOPF8JJXBx0s8DeZku/l+BMD27KEvKAA3edVoRlOOKUT5PdGnYz hsu/1hERsv4LzvoGDqOrHXcOtuJHc3ra4Rbg5531rCKrPyvYNPhG8Uddvl/Uh2v+ BXqY1MPt7/t7DY99IqliiTRu8uMSGPJrhHt091qx1AxYfUEKYEN2lsygYtEPPAjI Ca1ow0QuWxbjRR5/aNln6p1V+lZJnPtoQSvBkz8MUFjRRTkX0cBjc7IVXdniJ0yf pHC6PKBoeKScwTeyTqOnBvW9R52k4egyACIM7MU0HqPY/WX4MkCM/SP7qh6DyBTN A7jKK/ZIgjFoSoqeFZ89KIYx84fnn3M0JF4fwXN2lLdZEbY6NYQNTkxxguKUwH9u 92mP3wAbyNlec3pqcySRaGT8djcHC6k6GoV6CZKXHeA9ORG2TzGy2edwUIWfgdGN fz1QcvZbsJTaU1P+26MFQXbAgQyN5wCL9aBoDqefsGHxZxSpnNw+mIrhWWfVCzfg rBnf8yZFYZpN98Is9k5bLHFlIrSItARIP/qEbEriQ2gZVAon2Is= =9FUW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nt2ni94mpMnJdaJIMI2nCe3EhIJKApXh0-- From nobody Mon Jul 24 04:19:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B39131C8B for ; 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Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:19:41 GMT To: Niels ten Oever , Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> <20170722153519.GA17039@sources.org> <20170724110208.qbj7cjghzpznpls6@mir> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <0424a1a1-3b82-f09a-218c-2519abba8af8@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:19:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170724110208.qbj7cjghzpznpls6@mir> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="QMM4XhWcvNkL8LGck3sqfjVSlJjeD58O4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:19:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --QMM4XhWcvNkL8LGck3sqfjVSlJjeD58O4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qFCjn2eLpf7pjkGRn9NbreCmEvfvixteR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Niels ten Oever , Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <0424a1a1-3b82-f09a-218c-2519abba8af8@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01.txt References: <20170720141859.co3y5lz5rva7vh6f@mir> <20170722153519.GA17039@sources.org> <20170724110208.qbj7cjghzpznpls6@mir> In-Reply-To: <20170724110208.qbj7cjghzpznpls6@mir> --qFCjn2eLpf7pjkGRn9NbreCmEvfvixteR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US On 7/24/17 1:02 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote: >> Also, section 9 "How voluntary are open standards?" seems to me >> unclear. Is it about "voluntary participation to their creation" (the >> open nature of IETF) or "voluntary deployment after the RFC are >> published" (the IETF is not a protocol police)? >> > The latter. > > Certainly when we had our earlier back and forth I was thinking the latter as well, but the former is also important. Eliot --qFCjn2eLpf7pjkGRn9NbreCmEvfvixteR-- --QMM4XhWcvNkL8LGck3sqfjVSlJjeD58O4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZddfMAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozjjUIAMNOXpRa+TYxn+709dgah2kO +u0/GkW14gY5SP4eUQA1+1yuGWlZM36OfKgmNtFF8sFfsEYbvudLnCgtFovNl7bS 9rkpbWE+5vcKQJlhijC+YS7Y5SrDMDWQfQOVNCrdXRPEGpFL+g0Ot+LJO9pGYvCK spjEYJ69KQBsg8aaO6um7Hjcq2G/Io4cZhKomhNeD+jzVpr5UcK+djQSLk+i1T8R hCr8XjXxhHtBJ+dga8Y3Ukfv62jPCIU3AJqZrv7lwqjTObRnp4QamqdomadG5qz3 WDESjozHHDjEQDrPvTn8EvSK16ECT8JL/dlyk7MYr/fXgwIGasMr/Hy7Dvyrts0= =y4x6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --QMM4XhWcvNkL8LGck3sqfjVSlJjeD58O4-- From nobody Fri Jul 28 08:51:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC41C13213E for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kBTUxCyAVQvp for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22e.google.com (mail-oi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 450F3131CA2 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x3so132246102oia.1 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Jx6MFaktCkPm6Ue+k8ITgapxqRM+nu2Z0iloCqrfbPc=; b=df3H3baBHaVOVbYDmxBc2mZG2lFj8qAKuIcc5Ayi2RPvxGFMyVPLTlf7lltmYJoz7V F5HRhDciwtAuz2ruD7ff+coOZIkn8XDrAR1jo6k/0xW0GdXdA+9BlGeu2DoBsatc9WYE 6f1Wpqd29wVN34uzAsml5VZdqXaIcoEcUR6LQhCSF+PsiKDQ5s30R79VlszP1aIi4gWH amDp+gbPtvaUwhskEtyZpRkd8s+eVzuuFWHo8YM7NU3VhbRysmBtGLZ7pM4yG7Hl9pRH N/7JSyQyFNUM8vkxfBYI981Qp0rhKccvZ8hzwA4yHz6RFAIj/80hqUyK7aBTJLhDiqRS MhCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Jx6MFaktCkPm6Ue+k8ITgapxqRM+nu2Z0iloCqrfbPc=; b=Da/HWdknPaG37oSA6tQDKMoKrF2cM1tMlEyedwtUfMcIvk1edpEZdhG6pVVlmEb0+W z/NyJedDkx2GydOqfWqZVXLWILZvqGziCcVT5K072VOHbK7xefjKDV30J7i2MQBL0xtg Oqnhmr/8j+zKjjnRsootLPmNlfwbNakHvPhSU9G1T2AfezYx+Tcrg2ubNNuF+EmZ3xib LbSusPPFhvuiWKIXhlErTGx7VV5rlZzOyBpbP4GxgRBxGXcwmZ7XC9vEWiJYWNdLb44k RI9WPUm74roLLaZUOM8PZfrpPqM9qsyMbDMCGmX2e9aGRYAL2ITQawCrPiOSa7Ed4bt7 PGSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110NQADrJ73PWXz9aPIQVxsvwUFxyk18x29w6PWt910uxeVNMjKu dtRsFBKWpPNIjdwaUZ+v79rL3bZFIkCJ X-Received: by 10.202.199.138 with SMTP id x132mr6673552oif.52.1501257061238; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.115.105 with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:51:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Mando Rachovitsa Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:51:00 +0200 Message-ID: To: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="001a11c18044da682b055562a5d1" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:51:07 -0000 --001a11c18044da682b055562a5d1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11c18044da6825055562a5cf" --001a11c18044da6825055562a5cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi All. Niels and I were having a chat about people discussing human rights and that sometimes there are misunderstandings or that people get confused with things which are not necessarily very relevant to the IETF's work (conflicts of rights, domestic law trumps human rights etc). I sent Niels a text adding some colour to it so that information is more digestible. This started a bit like a joke but it is not a bad idea to have something that people can resort to. Ideally something a bit funny or interactive - could be Q&A online/comic/add visualizations? I attach the PDF. Text is rather quickly drafted, but if there is interest I am happy to work and expand on it. Thanks, Mando --001a11c18044da6825055562a5cf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All.

Niels and I were having a c= hat about people discussing human rights and that sometimes there are misun= derstandings or that people get confused with things which are not necessar= ily very relevant to the IETF's work=20 (conflicts of rights, domestic law trumps human rights etc).

I sent = Niels a text adding some colour to it so that information=20 is more digestible. This started a bit like a joke but it is not a bad idea= to have something that people can resort to. Ideally something a bit funny= or interactive - could be Q&A online/comic/add visualizations?
I attach the PDF. Text is rather quickly drafted, but if there is in= terest I am happy to work and expand on it.=C2=A0

Thanks,
= Mando

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MmVmNjE1MDI2NGUxMTkxYmMzNjY+IF0gPj4Kc3RhcnR4cmVmCjc0ODI2CiUlRU9GCg== --001a11c18044da682b055562a5d1-- From nobody Fri Jul 28 09:29:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60614131CE3 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggXFfo-ogu48 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87199124217 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 09:29:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7048; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1501259385; x=1502468985; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version: in-reply-to; bh=4F7ytCT7RIpK4NlaoT9xbXG26gV52WqjlpZz0JNote0=; b=baztLH1y6KtWVwsJZtwn5OoVepTvfwFVN0d9zJps7gF5jOjcCjbCKeqb en9rHoTGDKOWoXY5MR3G81yxzr7RSV9g+G42pp4NhjfidQwE7ZqBW2qDy rVjycygwr/Jm12MJyyohD0MhtDOgcCg7k/y+0K5o/bFtpQ97cs0l0WIwe Q=; X-Files: signature.asc : 481 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AgBgZXtZ/xbLJq1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgm8+AoEPbSePAJBykFyFL4ISBxoBCoUbAoQyFwECAQEBAQEBAWsohRg?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAgEBASFLEAsLDgoqAgInMAYBDAYCAQGIFgGCDAgQsAGCJieLGAEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQ4KBYMohVmCfIMAhQaCYQEEl2CIDYQwgh6EA4lVizO?= =?us-ascii?q?HCZVyIAE2gQoyIQgcFUmFFhyBaT42igABAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,425,1496102400"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="696129342" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 28 Jul 2017 16:29:41 +0000 Received: from [10.61.231.42] ([10.61.231.42]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v6SGTe94015700; Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:29:40 GMT To: Mando Rachovitsa , hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <7335dc8b-745d-c9e4-a927-dbbfe42c76e0@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 18:29:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="QxWpje4uUgmcsvmfqtc33fjXFFma4W802" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 16:29:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --QxWpje4uUgmcsvmfqtc33fjXFFma4W802 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Uq84GOQsRGbUNXR36mp7TknLxPwVdxrgu"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mando Rachovitsa , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <7335dc8b-745d-c9e4-a927-dbbfe42c76e0@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights References: In-Reply-To: --Uq84GOQsRGbUNXR36mp7TknLxPwVdxrgu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------267007601FD49F26F4A0DAAF" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------267007601FD49F26F4A0DAAF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's very cute, but my concern remains here: > Bob: No, I haven=E2=80=99t. It=E2=80=99s too long. And now what? All hu= man rights are > applicable to my work? > > Alice: No, silly. The analogy does not hold for all human rights, as > Clark said. Not all human rights are applicable online nor it is > meaningful for the purposes of the IETF=E2=80=99s work to try to make s= uch an > analogy. > One cannot view human rights in isolation. It is important to view them in their totality. Some governments would probably argue that human rights are being preserved through snooping activities. Eliot On 7/28/17 5:51 PM, Mando Rachovitsa wrote: > Hi All. > > Niels and I were having a chat about people discussing human rights > and that sometimes there are misunderstandings or that people get > confused with things which are not necessarily very relevant to the > IETF's work (conflicts of rights, domestic law trumps human rights etc)= =2E > > I sent Niels a text adding some colour to it so that information is > more digestible. This started a bit like a joke but it is not a bad > idea to have something that people can resort to. Ideally something a > bit funny or interactive - could be Q&A online/comic/add visualizations= ? > > I attach the PDF. Text is rather quickly drafted, but if there is > interest I am happy to work and expand on it.=20 > > Thanks, > Mando > > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --------------267007601FD49F26F4A0DAAF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That's very cute, but my concern remains here:

Bob: No, I haven=E2=80=99t. It=E2=80= =99s too long. And now what? All human rights are applicable to my work?


Alice: No, silly. The analogy does not hold for all human rights, as Clark said. Not all human rights are applicable online nor it is meaningful for the purposes of the IETF=E2=80=99s work to try to make such an analogy.


One cannot view human rights in isolation.=C2=A0 It is important to= view them in their totality.=C2=A0 Some governments would probably argue that human rights are being preserved through snooping activities.

Eliot



On 7/28/17 5:51 PM, Mando Rachovitsa wrote:
Hi All.

Niels and I were having a chat about people discussing human rights and that sometimes there are misunderstandings or that people get confused with things which are not necessarily very relevant to the IETF's work (conflicts of rights, domestic law trumps human rights etc).

I sent Niels a text adding some colour to it so that information is more digestible. This started a bit like a joke but it is not a bad idea to have something that people can resort to. Ideally something a bit funny or interactive - could be Q&A online/comic/add visualizations?

I attach the PDF. Text is rather quickly drafted, but if there is interest I am happy to work and expand on it.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Mando



_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@=
irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

--------------267007601FD49F26F4A0DAAF-- --Uq84GOQsRGbUNXR36mp7TknLxPwVdxrgu-- --QxWpje4uUgmcsvmfqtc33fjXFFma4W802 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZe2Z3AAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozJIYIAJOm0PTpdl5fc+TJ6+taA+j+ Mn0htQiddMKuVyYahVrwqFsMpjhrv+AuId8kchVeQzMIdIqcERd459cqB+4KMRrP 28s8hg++zJU5CKDM+dbZCfvTIKMSNKLvcbbjh4BOkjVCVztYrmu0RWcPY+4njhto FcbSZh3ajcygUNuWTiaTu2NM8hBn51pXu/My3WSjLzshoMVVkxSlZ21N1p8FmB5z Jfd7hA8Io24xol30doie823XO1rVWweDWIka5JiiBfIVGkMHbQfsIT8Sv8lf6Pnf 0CA404eyhWf0AyQIgiCpeLwVfDdT7g/n6LkZoq9mD7f1gLW74kJkQRGYeiA/wsY= =TFBN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --QxWpje4uUgmcsvmfqtc33fjXFFma4W802-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 02:21:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41CE131FEE for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:21:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PrUgk5nX3wLT for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 265E0129B5E for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 02:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dc6tZ-0004UT-K4; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:21:49 +0200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:21:48 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Eliot Lear Cc: Mando Rachovitsa , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20170731092148.gb527bl4uzlqcd2y@mir> References: <7335dc8b-745d-c9e4-a927-dbbfe42c76e0@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="th3rv3a3btlyjy2b" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7335dc8b-745d-c9e4-a927-dbbfe42c76e0@cisco.com> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 63453eee11fb90e6254115624a40dc2b Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 09:21:54 -0000 --th3rv3a3btlyjy2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Elliot and Mando, First of all: Mando thanks for this. Secondly, I think there is some confusion about the concept 'applicability'= =2E I do not think Mando wants to argue that human rights are not interrela= ted, interdependent and unalienable, but rather that not all human rights a= re relevant for every technical decision. So I think what is meant is 'relevance' and not 'applicability', am I right? Cheers, Niels On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 06:29:43PM +0200, Eliot Lear wrote: > That's very cute, but my concern remains here: >=20 > > Bob: No, I haven=E2=80=99t. It=E2=80=99s too long. And now what? All hu= man rights are > > applicable to my work? > > >=20 > > Alice: No, silly. The analogy does not hold for all human rights, as > > Clark said. Not all human rights are applicable online nor it is > > meaningful for the purposes of the IETF=E2=80=99s work to try to make s= uch an > > analogy. > > >=20 > One cannot view human rights in isolation. It is important to view them > in their totality. Some governments would probably argue that human > rights are being preserved through snooping activities. >=20 > Eliot >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 7/28/17 5:51 PM, Mando Rachovitsa wrote: > > Hi All. > > > > Niels and I were having a chat about people discussing human rights > > and that sometimes there are misunderstandings or that people get > > confused with things which are not necessarily very relevant to the > > IETF's work (conflicts of rights, domestic law trumps human rights etc). > > > > I sent Niels a text adding some colour to it so that information is > > more digestible. This started a bit like a joke but it is not a bad > > idea to have something that people can resort to. Ideally something a > > bit funny or interactive - could be Q&A online/comic/add visualizations? > > > > I attach the PDF. Text is rather quickly drafted, but if there is > > interest I am happy to work and expand on it.=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Mando > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > hrpc mailing list > > hrpc@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --th3rv3a3btlyjy2b Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAll+9qwACgkQDtg/OkaK yLM83Q/+Iy7w/N9MjsMOZ774OG8nUCuZKghNIlwpmghYFi8MUpp5WwIFi/PIlTXQ DfMG7g3EqgbuQ2/d8X+yQUfEPHJCfqZDV+P9NlMt4n5SEVIyM0iKCwu0j8EfxB6g FdZmoAxsxQxKqQ/rLmOT9mIlEGT7gnooPBH/j9AaY1OoSzG/ymNcokJITluMSbL5 aYrB/v3Nzy+W8pKSBk91/OzUtX0qO/fAe4ey68n/S3OzLOIwA0ewHdVFNCL+NYYG hK0YpCd58UZpemdwWp9QPEl/U9f9tOkWY3m1TedE0SRHsklmG/a9K6OP37aPuN+5 4xyb+XJNKAYBRrPpY8j0gtjmg0+skvpgGcC6jsaIVnmaIfo9GndD7xY0EfQqFoxz QPwPJOZuGnzaCiElhNKiItwIb5IlW3/TM1a3XchZtzjBuCjMoehSn/yA1VZtmfwx rPBI+FUHQCFC3eIdoMwWQOGU2cSDx+HO8tY5oyx+pcHql7JS+afWFsycqH8Z3xXo M8haFimYjaciSqW3xhYNDO/d0JOd0wP0hcA7Y/Ds+omXcZt3aR/zESjekUw/fm1A CR9KH3WPlqxp15SVgskcVjAw3ycV5XJQZV7Jb86zV1dopBGUN9tU/9InHP+vFkAW /84ETeWZeXxja0o1QA4TdI89s8pKtCoGr7W4GjtQZkxyb+WZnfc= =1YEd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --th3rv3a3btlyjy2b-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 04:26:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D889132144 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W-KDlVuq4c5j for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8D1C132122 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18EBBE2D; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:26:34 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YKyr699gxsoX; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:26:34 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.36.93] (bilbo.dsg.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 951BFBE2C; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:26:34 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1501500394; bh=8/hNZjALV+6m3exyHXAyR5akiN0AZHYTFN2oVV2RDSg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=OFdaReIQjCJv+1AXzwGTCGGWK0jV5qgp4gBwRPFxvks3XJNKpDqO2zz5tFRAxFy97 nlTtYo8o/wURcBbQ/X0Cp2wZ7+xVcBeG5pHkNKCGNlknAGx+6HS60MCS7l7c58gxOb xKNhe7rAUkKzNG37ZZM1QP5NwSDj8zAC7/1FjAY4= To: Mando Rachovitsa , hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:26:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vcLB4PppmFUEUr6QMSiSHrmmKI8WjCulh" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:26:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --vcLB4PppmFUEUr6QMSiSHrmmKI8WjCulh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QnGxb9b5O5NWcawAJ69Dj7GVoIabOS1kU"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Mando Rachovitsa , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights References: In-Reply-To: --QnGxb9b5O5NWcawAJ69Dj7GVoIabOS1kU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, Your text states: "the failure to mandate Transport Layer Security (TLS) as a feature of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) left web traffic vulnerable to censorship and surveillance" and quotes a UN report that says that. The problem is that the quoted statement isn't accurate. (I'm not doubting that the quote is a quote:-) If you're planning on revising the document then I'd recommend chatting with some of the folks who were involved with that very lengthy http/2 discussion to figure out how to present an accurate picture of the discussion and of the outcome. And in case it's useful here's another Bob question for ya: "So you're telling me that if X is a human right, then any of the approx 200 governments in the world can make X illegal (or tightly constrain X) using some made up excuse (or good reason) related to security or reputation? Sounds to me like that means that there's no good way to map human rights into decisions made when developing Internet protocols if that's the case. What am I missing?" Cheers, S. PS: I am not Bob, but I'd be interested in how Alice might respond:-) --QnGxb9b5O5NWcawAJ69Dj7GVoIabOS1kU-- --vcLB4PppmFUEUr6QMSiSHrmmKI8WjCulh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZfxPqAAoJEC88hzaAX42iPBUH/jVnmrfqtEBGHfcP/bBN75aN 6kfxYWNCIc3ve4GcF/1QQymmcbadnNfvNDNTviZPFFGbw+SqEHAPp89ve43wwIID LZmZzU4TfNCLOWgLqRE8lqlV9gu0HcEEXL9LduSddts3YDzioVkgbp/ugwR6ZeKe DRGBcmyazAYTAgRLiRwzFrdR87BA2evJPCxXCCfMWaQaITkL7gSCEjd4E2YFN4Wv kPE5U3OEVtPvk+AcndQS0n2P+J8iU18IUfCFaedNQWUPUTFbsYxWEQfg+dbK2g79 Kfx6p6luQud3UkVSQ77ef95Kj4tzqfYxnQNR1k6Vn19n/eNYiWGkIl7b48xGOX4= =5v1V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vcLB4PppmFUEUr6QMSiSHrmmKI8WjCulh-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 04:35:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FE9132161 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rwm63zeBgBna for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4361E132146 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dc8yT-0000oz-84 for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:35:01 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:34:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lk1q2hOae5DPD56GEObqHsBsBpWJhM2WI" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: d5aa70a8063fc4d8c9ef9eac2991db7d Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] for the users X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:35:06 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --lk1q2hOae5DPD56GEObqHsBsBpWJhM2WI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eGrlEJhCS6sImnqs39S5VkXaKxCeSLUXd"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> Subject: for the users --eGrlEJhCS6sImnqs39S5VkXaKxCeSLUXd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, A new version of draft-nottingham-for-the-users is out, I've added my concerns as a Github issue here: https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/238 But also happy to discuss here (if people find it useful): Thanks for the new version of the draft. Upon re-reading it I thought of a threat vector that this draft possible brings in which might actually impact its usefulness. If we prioritize the need of the end-user, we're prioritizing end-user values. The problem with end-user values is that everyone can claim anything is an end-user value. The end-user is not a standard with explicit guidelines or standards. It might even lead to a deterioration of consensus as documented in [RFC7754] [RFC7258] [RFC7624] [RFC7288] or [RFC6973] because people might argue that these go against end-user values such as 'harmony', 'public safety' and 'public decency'. So where I see the use of this for instance in the TLS1.3 discussion, I also see how it could potentially be used on the other side of the discussion. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --eGrlEJhCS6sImnqs39S5VkXaKxCeSLUXd-- --lk1q2hOae5DPD56GEObqHsBsBpWJhM2WI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAll/FeMACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMkrw/8CSB2dH55ha5GmvZucpIug5SQ5k9sOQjsBJREhDjMdwzMpK9Q4VTgplBs mpmOk0SHS2R7xRgAMFryAjZgK62n9p8oh5ZNsNO8aT/D0mgZA5D3R9I/DLWaCeEa ClJ3z+qEb4wu8ix5Q9Yen3gbSymdmJ7wMcWi9mVFisaLnCEpLxQ482PIT9w2YRa3 07WtmI4t9MJO9PuN6K6aOZ+3QIk2u0ZRdzDfRfKNKeWmOcGHZaFt0wJfgQzb6h1c U4O6rty2LRGain/L5Ie2iQk2nfz7EMtQnhFbcvANfMFV5Q/bKD85222gO7cNgXqT UmW1OZzAcPE6ZUfCrAnPTVlvqIBr1DMepK/CS7eETLlCAu2MJYOWTBIMJvaGOm71 m/Eo9JVyKLMSN4EMZoXRe6LTKTlM01stA0jAPW1PLL4Y7UnrP3KFQ9wfAOApIvKV IjHRZ55y6MW6r9iRzbS0auEyGpHlo2EWmPpaY98dVlZaleUfaZZ/Q8bX1PLARF0C x2Fbf+E4/FACPHBHOjjkH4Mqh+H/pn+YHmA/+4QLNmC0V87NkSXiq/ynPYUavOfz el0mikgfrZXuUHwSlX5qVuPpTxk6pjhZ9MsyYacr8xkXbINK5e7Y0r3qean2W3zS DA87P7kPDN2mHBJUtz/PMUktrA6ECwkqA7IISRFxa/FKY+ACnZM= =kffc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lk1q2hOae5DPD56GEObqHsBsBpWJhM2WI-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 05:02:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDD813217A for ; 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d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=BpDqN3b20AyfO70D01qsWBoQamaM6+wq0Rqmrx2bBbo=; b=hxQUe0V2 T2gqYM5r8Ez7DHzXuEYVRqIscaRmc9IQnh5tMLXvxdU/VF5vepjGTp+ZbIbxLkSW qvPcgPUwUP8sx1feafAoWpl1u6zYzbxKzFq7ZFXxg2ejR+ro+iXiAi3SMXRa2Nfv hdRBNtlVppOlz3uc5G02RRxR1m/01VzUYZuA08nn10TT4as8PzkWK394PoPm6a6I ++FzaY0Prt3uKVu4t4S6REHUMg6tXwamZ3OAMcG/yTzFBtsOiiBvIKmdrjnwbZY2 9sUcUVeat6wRle0jFBrGH4blyvzS7r1+Um1x6BPIpj1J85w0yPl221fCKjybKhQu 3ZHWXISl0Rp3Lw== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: mvTboASZDs5C5U47dZz8qg17UqvM012fx08gOBVWdHPA 1501502571 Received: from [192.168.1.14] (cpe-124-188-19-231.hdbq1.win.bigpond.net.au [124.188.19.231]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 677407E432; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 22:02:47 +1000 Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> To: Niels ten Oever X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] for the users X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:02:56 -0000 Hi Niels, > On 31 Jul 2017, at 9:34 pm, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > A new version of draft-nottingham-for-the-users is out, I've added my > concerns as a Github issue here: >=20 > https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/238 >=20 > But also happy to discuss here (if people find it useful): >=20 > Thanks for the new version of the draft. Upon re-reading it I thought = of > a threat vector that this draft possible brings in which might = actually > impact its usefulness. If we prioritize the need of the end-user, = we're > prioritizing end-user values. >=20 > The problem with end-user values is that everyone can claim anything = is > an end-user value. The end-user is not a standard with explicit > guidelines or standards. It might even lead to a deterioration of > consensus as documented in [RFC7754] [RFC7258] [RFC7624] [RFC7288] or > [RFC6973] because people might argue that these go against end-user > values such as 'harmony', 'public safety' and 'public decency'. The draft cites those RFCs as a kind of baseline -- the intent is not to = re-interpret them, but instead to provide guidance for situations where = there isn't yet established practice. I can clarify that if it helps = (and specific suggestions for text are always welcome!). > So where I see the use of this for instance in the TLS1.3 discussion, = I > also see how it could potentially be used on the other side of the > discussion. I don't think there's any magic bullet that guarantees that the right = thing will always happen -- we rely upon the community to bring up and = represent users' needs. What this draft tries to do is give user-focused = participants, chairs, ADs and other leadership a tool to use to help, = along with a stated goal. I was just looking at BCP95 in this light; I've always found that an = excellent RFC, but the stated goal of the IETF -- "The goal of the IETF = is to make the Internet work better" -- is so frustrating because it = begs the question "for whom?" This draft tries to give some guidance along those lines; it's a very = small step, but one worth taking, I think.=20 BTW, I found Section 4.1 of that document very interesting in the = context of the TLS discussions: In attempting to resolve the question of the IETF's scope, perhaps the fairest balance is struck by this formulation: "protocols and practices for which secure and scalable implementations are expected to have wide deployment and interoperation on the Internet, or to form part of the infrastructure of the Internet." Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Jul 31 11:25:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0B8132762 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:25:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IQg3n1OlH5qT for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x236.google.com (mail-oi0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7244413276B for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x236.google.com with SMTP id x3so187400631oia.1 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+05/Xg+oyyc6/NSUaBMmqVSonz1JNI9dLH1WctKA628=; b=H1HG7dD92g+EFwim1heMucH2DA2HieTFjbFtMLGAIPRpmidcs9SXlKCZlJ4EXhwqk2 vWvIobhhkJb+1oU/ci5GP8Drv+7mV9VwzWJZ2qyWB9WJXD0XYfEEkdowaxvrcjhFkkzx pH4BluxO77PYTM7kreiESpwX2BCBoVKtkxN61VIfFw/UoThB9vDCvcK5VZoP905NXGtl r4GExW2WKXgfDCGzGGASNy4FxGL9IZxOY+RlJKpqt8DaU2bnGUNKWpl6ziNaR9BGgX31 o9tjddvfWrCTE20p9W4fYyRY2tCmnPOJbUy88u5s6kKaoLxsAePMXyntV+KwOOCwDLYv nYaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+05/Xg+oyyc6/NSUaBMmqVSonz1JNI9dLH1WctKA628=; b=fr/1YWeQAtDhTW19xlPsfjhrW6HqVcGDdmZfxj9hJVkEEbXTBAf/sDs2WPwI5pGvR/ rnbzQzlkcM1G2wpaxiVpXWrK03h9qRgSIzP2zHx8u0AQFLp2QI2FceqvbcvHQ1Q3nYzZ eS1ey8Dv6Rp8uaDlNKKfEKYxxZIxTuu89UUOoU/e3VckN7uFc3js8cJkknZo9WdQldbz OPNaeaEZo2GpAMrMxvnDCe8CPfPFgvg6LXvT6AYndugBN1LLW3BlbmoVEyU0Y/yK88oB 3vkC5g3cVNwVycoWAgWcOrvRkMSU2c8Wbm97+JkorECSTm9l2v8F26GWH4YJC9idwGPp VA3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1131++On6ssEtC2G2wR1p4t0qMZkxDx2d+ym/hlmQqW+UC8NCqsU idJ721SlG9wtQ82zB+Fd5hW15tPc+n+/ X-Received: by 10.202.225.5 with SMTP id y5mr12434153oig.32.1501525538622; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.120.101 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> References: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> From: Mando Rachovitsa Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:25:38 +0200 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d469e59d2df0555a128fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:25:41 -0000 --001a113d469e59d2df0555a128fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi All. Thanks for the feedback. Re Eliot: I think that what Niels mentioned reflects what I was thinking. All human rights may be/are applicable and they are interrelated, interdependent and unalienable. In the text I am referring to figuring out which human rights are relevant when discussing a specific technical decision in the content of the IETF. Admittedly, the answer to this question may not be always be straightforward. Perhaps the text needs to clarify these points. Re Stephen: I will do revisit/reframe the issues highlighted in the quote. Thank you. I will also try to answer your question :) I think questions and answers are better addressed in a collaborative manner. I am under no illusion that I can answer all questions or that I can ask the right/crucial questions. An idea would be to crowd-source this experiment: anybody who has a question on human rights should be given the opportunity to ask it. We can gather them and try to address them. I can do my best from my point of view. If interested, let me know. Also, I was thinking that to avoid stereotypes Alice and Bob could play reverse characters in the story ;) Best, Mando On 31 July 2017 at 13:26, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > Your text states: > > "the failure to mandate Transport Layer Security (TLS) as a feature > of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) left web traffic vulnerable > to censorship and surveillance" and quotes a UN report that says > that. > > The problem is that the quoted statement isn't accurate. (I'm not > doubting that the quote is a quote:-) > > If you're planning on revising the document then I'd recommend > chatting with some of the folks who were involved with that very > lengthy http/2 discussion to figure out how to present an accurate > picture of the discussion and of the outcome. > > And in case it's useful here's another Bob question for ya: > "So you're telling me that if X is a human right, then any > of the approx 200 governments in the world can make X illegal > (or tightly constrain X) using some made up excuse (or good > reason) related to security or reputation? Sounds to me like > that means that there's no good way to map human rights into > decisions made when developing Internet protocols if that's > the case. What am I missing?" > > Cheers, > S. > > PS: I am not Bob, but I'd be interested in how Alice might > respond:-) > > > --001a113d469e59d2df0555a128fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All.

Thanks for the feedback.

Re Eliot: I think that what Niels mentioned reflects what I was think= ing. All human rights may be/are applicable and they are interrelated, inte= rdependent and unalienable. In the text I am referring to figuring out whic= h human rights are relevant when discussing a specific technical decision i= n the content of the IETF. Admittedly, the answer to this question may not = be always be straightforward. Perhaps the text needs to clarify these point= s.

Re Stephen: I will do revisit/reframe the issues high= lighted in the quote. Thank you. I will also try to answer your question :)=

I think questions and answers are better addressed in a= collaborative manner. I am under no illusion that I can answer all questio= ns or that I can ask the right/crucial questions. An idea would be to crowd= -source this experiment: anybody who has a question on human rights should = be given the opportunity to ask it. We can gather them and try to address t= hem. I can do my best from my point of view. If interested, let me know.
Also, I was thinking that to avoid stereotypes Alice and B= ob could play reverse characters in the story ;)

Best,
Mando




On 31 July 2017 at 13:26, Step= hen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

Your text states:

"the failure to mandate Transport Layer Security (TLS) as a feature of the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) left web traffic vulnerable
to censorship and surveillance" and quotes a UN report that says
that.

The problem is that the quoted statement isn't accurate. (I'm not doubting that the quote is a quote:-)

If you're planning on revising the document then I'd recommend
chatting with some of the folks who were involved with that very
lengthy http/2 discussion to figure out how to present an accurate
picture of the discussion and of the outcome.

And in case it's useful here's another Bob question for ya:
"So you're telling me that if X is a human right, then any
of the approx 200 governments in the world can make X illegal
(or tightly constrain X) using some made up excuse (or good
reason) related to security or reputation? Sounds to me like
that means that there's no good way to map human rights into
decisions made when developing Internet protocols if that's
the case. What am I missing?"

Cheers,
S.

PS: I am not Bob, but I'd be interested in how Alice might
respond:-)



--001a113d469e59d2df0555a128fe-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 12:42:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C3213170E for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3o7QMk5mim2M for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2E3013278C for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 12:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dcGaZ-0000Rp-Ui; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:42:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:42:48 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <20170731194248.twu25kws5aa6q6vr@mir> References: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="axewjbt3pvx6epb5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 3ddf0642c34c0a2e6ef249022ab545db Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] for the users X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 19:42:57 -0000 --axewjbt3pvx6epb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark, On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 10:02:47PM +1000, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Niels, >=20 > > On 31 Jul 2017, at 9:34 pm, Niels ten Oever wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all, > >=20 > > A new version of draft-nottingham-for-the-users is out, I've added my > > concerns as a Github issue here: > >=20 > > https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/238 > >=20 > > But also happy to discuss here (if people find it useful): > >=20 > > Thanks for the new version of the draft. Upon re-reading it I thought of > > a threat vector that this draft possible brings in which might actually > > impact its usefulness. If we prioritize the need of the end-user, we're > > prioritizing end-user values. > >=20 > > The problem with end-user values is that everyone can claim anything is > > an end-user value. The end-user is not a standard with explicit > > guidelines or standards. It might even lead to a deterioration of > > consensus as documented in [RFC7754] [RFC7258] [RFC7624] [RFC7288] or > > [RFC6973] because people might argue that these go against end-user > > values such as 'harmony', 'public safety' and 'public decency'. >=20 > The draft cites those RFCs as a kind of baseline -- the intent is not to = re-interpret them, but instead to provide guidance for situations where the= re isn't yet established practice. I can clarify that if it helps (and spec= ific suggestions for text are always welcome!). >=20 I like those documents as baseline, as well as RFC1958 and RFC3935. > > So where I see the use of this for instance in the TLS1.3 discussion, I > > also see how it could potentially be used on the other side of the > > discussion. >=20 > I don't think there's any magic bullet that guarantees that the right thi= ng will always happen -- we rely upon the community to bring up and represe= nt users' needs. What this draft tries to do is give user-focused participa= nts, chairs, ADs and other leadership a tool to use to help, along with a s= tated goal. >=20 > I was just looking at BCP95 in this light; I've always found that an exce= llent RFC, but the stated goal of the IETF -- "The goal of the IETF is to m= ake the Internet work better" -- is so frustrating because it begs the ques= tion "for whom?" >=20 > This draft tries to give some guidance along those lines; it's a very sma= ll step, but one worth taking, I think.=20 >=20 If this would be used in the isolated case of prioritizing vendors and user= s, or operators and users, I would wholeheartidly agree. But I am afraid th= at people might use the end-user argument to argue against encryption and o= ther values outlined in the baseline (for instance based on usability). In the human rights framework, a framework I am more familiar with, one alw= ays starts out from the point of the rights holder, in this case that would= be the user. I think using the human rights framework would also achieve y= our goals as well as ensuring that it wouldn't go against the baseline docu= ments. What do you think? Best, Niels > BTW, I found Section 4.1 of that document very interesting in the context= of the TLS discussions: >=20 > In attempting to resolve the question of the IETF's scope, perhaps > the fairest balance is struck by this formulation: "protocols and > practices for which secure and scalable implementations are expected > to have wide deployment and interoperation on the Internet, or to > form part of the infrastructure of the Internet." >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --axewjbt3pvx6epb5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAll/iDgACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPeLQ/+MqDS+jhUWVXM5nFDDR6ReOIr+PuiV3uTmyARSLqM0aACC79/KmmP08YB RSvYR8OmQDrLlEv3P20NkyZr09l+T4LXc6iLjNYxLLc9fb46ZEv0WEkD+vtz1K3q gR8ePTw0EwuyR7ETj0Xy261d3npQPgLfHf3W+t8w4iTaV6oHBhT9qNyyF6DK3X0N REU+cb7T3zMghi9f4HYMZzlbsJ1KkHdouIWamQB5+R6zBE0na7tcsrvw/KhEHWNS +R41BIqLttIcTLhnEBS8EtLtmdrrZMPkMSwe1RvtfrcGN1vwRZ10CpIBoKGQtTmz oBt/vqKy1txwkfU4X5tGghuxfVawT+IfrySBUkMiCms0hOAksWykDsyYNNfwtl7t zcW+0mzpfWxawa1mMZrj4id0A7WTFXkHOp42ZC5zYzWqgv/O/9SqS/ryRJfrW4dl VxWUr57o+cRnxx0UjsS6P8x0M5tBdY8efe9ofgXd6f8AZtPDNEOHnooEyp/pHGTt 5yQg7JY6Wi6krqEStHnKjLOrDCJ04r5c7Ri4P1r67kAx222p9iyy9TooFKKJmdLU TH7tfU1y+hfk+c+tq928gG6owZt3abs9wIHdOIPrseIq6ehZRXMbfzIeyVzaIBz6 CwEAp/Th4PzJOapPy4dUZ/4vtmm2IFqgO4J9/Z8IOchq6HasOv0= =Lodi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --axewjbt3pvx6epb5-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 13:01:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70248127735 for ; 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Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:01:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.120.101 with HTTP; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 13:01:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> From: Mando Rachovitsa Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 22:01:42 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d6b7af09d3c0555a27fe9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] for the users X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 20:01:46 -0000 --001a113d6b7af09d3c0555a27fe9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Niels, thanks for highlighting this. Mark, I might be asking silly questions but please humour me: - What made you choose the term "constituencies" in this draft? Identifiable parties/members of or communities within the Internet community in your previous drafts read better to me. - I will echo Niels' comment. Why "needs" of the users? I get what we mean in general when saying the real needs of the users, but in a text this is a loose term. I preferred the term "interests" that you used in previous drafts - it has a specific meaning within the IETF and at the same time ties it to the scope of its work. - On a more general note, I understand why the documentation of potentially affected users/communities did not remain as a requirement but was reduced to a suggestion/recommendation. Perhaps this recommendation though could be made a bit more explicit and get highlighted in the text? To my mind this is kinda important not because I want bureaucracy but talking about needs/interests of Internet users is so abstract unless one ties these interests to specific users/communities. This does not presuppose documentation (one way or another)? The underrepresented members of the Internet community unless somehow documented will never have a fighting chance to play by the rules of and enable the tussle. This is how I think about this anyway. - Finally, I get that the onus of the discussion lies in conflicts of interests between providers or services and equipment AND users of the Internet. How about, however, conflicts between interests of different communities/users? [this may be completely out of the scope of your draft but I had to ask :)]. Thanks! Mando On 31 July 2017 at 14:02, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Niels, > > > On 31 Jul 2017, at 9:34 pm, Niels ten Oever wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > A new version of draft-nottingham-for-the-users is out, I've added my > > concerns as a Github issue here: > > > > https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/238 > > > > But also happy to discuss here (if people find it useful): > > > > Thanks for the new version of the draft. Upon re-reading it I thought of > > a threat vector that this draft possible brings in which might actually > > impact its usefulness. If we prioritize the need of the end-user, we're > > prioritizing end-user values. > > > > The problem with end-user values is that everyone can claim anything is > > an end-user value. The end-user is not a standard with explicit > > guidelines or standards. It might even lead to a deterioration of > > consensus as documented in [RFC7754] [RFC7258] [RFC7624] [RFC7288] or > > [RFC6973] because people might argue that these go against end-user > > values such as 'harmony', 'public safety' and 'public decency'. > > The draft cites those RFCs as a kind of baseline -- the intent is not to > re-interpret them, but instead to provide guidance for situations where > there isn't yet established practice. I can clarify that if it helps (and > specific suggestions for text are always welcome!). > > > So where I see the use of this for instance in the TLS1.3 discussion, I > > also see how it could potentially be used on the other side of the > > discussion. > > I don't think there's any magic bullet that guarantees that the right > thing will always happen -- we rely upon the community to bring up and > represent users' needs. What this draft tries to do is give user-focused > participants, chairs, ADs and other leadership a tool to use to help, along > with a stated goal. > > I was just looking at BCP95 in this light; I've always found that an > excellent RFC, but the stated goal of the IETF -- "The goal of the IETF is > to make the Internet work better" -- is so frustrating because it begs the > question "for whom?" > > This draft tries to give some guidance along those lines; it's a very > small step, but one worth taking, I think. > > BTW, I found Section 4.1 of that document very interesting in the context > of the TLS discussions: > > In attempting to resolve the question of the IETF's scope, perhaps > the fairest balance is struck by this formulation: "protocols and > practices for which secure and scalable implementations are expected > to have wide deployment and interoperation on the Internet, or to > form part of the infrastructure of the Internet." > > Cheers, > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc > --001a113d6b7af09d3c0555a27fe9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Niels,

<= div>thanks for highlighting this.

Mark, I might be askin= g silly questions but please humour me:

- What made you choose= the term "constituencies" in this draft? Identifiable parties/me= mbers of or communities within the Internet community in your previous draf= ts read better to me.

- I will echo Niels' comment. Why &= quot;needs" of the users? I get what we mean in general when saying th= e real needs of the users, but in a text this is a loose term. I preferred = the term "interests" that you used in previous drafts - it has a = specific meaning within the IETF and at the same time ties it to the scope = of its work.

- On a more general note, I understa= nd why the documentation of potentially affected users/communities did not = remain as a requirement but was reduced to a suggestion/recommendation. Per= haps this recommendation though could be made a bit more explicit and get h= ighlighted in the text? To my mind this is kinda important not because I wa= nt bureaucracy but talking about needs/interests of Internet users is so ab= stract unless one ties these interests to specific users/communities. This = does not presuppose documentation (one way or another)? The underrepresente= d members of the Internet community unless somehow documented will never ha= ve a fighting chance to play by the rules of and enable the tussle. This is= how I think about this anyway.

- Finally, I get that the= onus of the discussion lies in conflicts of interests between providers or= services and equipment AND users of the Internet. How about, however, conf= licts between interests of different communities/users? [this may be comple= tely out of the scope of your draft but I had to ask :)].

Thanks!
Mando



On 31 July 2017 at 14:02, Mark Nottingh= am <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Hi N= iels,

> On 31 Jul 2017, at 9:34 pm, Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> A new version of draft-nottingham-for-the-users is out, I've added= my
> concerns as a Github issue here:
>
> https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/238
>
> But also happy to discuss here (if people find it useful):
>
> Thanks for the new version of the draft. Upon re-reading it I thought = of
> a threat vector that this draft possible brings in which might actuall= y
> impact its usefulness. If we prioritize the need of the end-user, we&#= 39;re
> prioritizing end-user values.
>
> The problem with end-user values is that everyone can claim anything i= s
> an end-user value. The end-user is not a standard with explicit
> guidelines or standards. It might even lead to a deterioration of
> consensus as documented in [RFC7754] [RFC7258] [RFC7624] [RFC7288] or<= br> > [RFC6973] because people might argue that these go against end-user > values such as 'harmony', 'public safety' and 'pub= lic decency'.

The draft cites those RFCs as a kind of baseline -- the intent is no= t to re-interpret them, but instead to provide guidance for situations wher= e there isn't yet established practice. I can clarify that if it helps = (and specific suggestions for text are always welcome!).

> So where I see the use of this for instance in the TLS1.3 discussion, = I
> also see how it could potentially be used on the other side of the
> discussion.

I don't think there's any magic bullet that guarantees that = the right thing will always happen -- we rely upon the community to bring u= p and represent users' needs. What this draft tries to do is give user-= focused participants, chairs, ADs and other leadership a tool to use to hel= p, along with a stated goal.

I was just looking at BCP95 in this light; I've always found that an ex= cellent RFC, but the stated goal of the IETF -- "The goal of the IETF = is to make the Internet work better" -- is so frustrating because it b= egs the question "for whom?"

This draft tries to give some guidance along those lines; it's a very s= mall step, but one worth taking, I think.

BTW, I found Section 4.1 of that document very interesting in the context o= f the TLS discussions:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In attempting to resolve the question of the IETF's scope,= perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the fairest balance is struck by this formulation: "proto= cols and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0practices for which secure and scalable implementations are ex= pected
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to have wide deployment and interoperation on the Internet, or= to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0form part of the infrastructure of the Internet."

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/


_______________________________________________
hrpc mailing list
hrpc@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc

--001a113d6b7af09d3c0555a27fe9-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 14:47:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB68412EBF7 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ilw2Bfim0K91 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CA3B129B62 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:47:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2991; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1501537670; x=1502747270; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=oxG9vPs/yeU5EqixrkWpa8tc3woegUiLcB5ashhJMNk=; b=Nmi3gEdociP6SlGt0ZlzVYoNKXxeKyGff4qbyCfLbjJoMAcRC1IVEuLO PaANcpQnJiulyqz4hRpuGUmb0l8P1xeUdxg5ssfSCGZYz6+NHl/ZFa3Zu /gnWjsHch8fvai/9D4FjMqpeBQskLjUwwKfgTzAz2/qKFOYVl0S/Xrq4R Q=; X-Files: signature.asc : 481 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AoAwCCpH9Z/xbLJq1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgy+RI5BRIpgdB4VAAoRMFQECAQEBAQEBAWsohRkBBSNWEAsOCioCAlc?= =?us-ascii?q?GAQwIAQGIFgGCFK5tgiaLRgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEg+DKIVZC4JxiAeCY?= =?us-ascii?q?QEEn2+EMIIejVmLM4cKlXI1Ij9LMiEIHBWHZD6KZQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.41,304,1498521600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="653627404" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 31 Jul 2017 21:47:46 +0000 Received: from [10.61.104.160] (dhcp-10-61-104-160.cisco.com [10.61.104.160]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v6VLljjx014720; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:47:45 GMT To: Mando Rachovitsa , Stephen Farrell Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: <5c38b223-d84e-1896-5324-d234d3529a5e@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:47:47 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WhRkO7KRs0je9L6qfrMRx3dCs6mQCG2Jf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:47:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WhRkO7KRs0je9L6qfrMRx3dCs6mQCG2Jf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Ak5fjoe7ede55gbtxwGX1a5cjNCtOh6TM"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Mando Rachovitsa , Stephen Farrell Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <5c38b223-d84e-1896-5324-d234d3529a5e@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights References: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --Ak5fjoe7ede55gbtxwGX1a5cjNCtOh6TM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Hi, On 7/31/17 8:25 PM, Mando Rachovitsa wrote: > Hi All. > > Thanks for the feedback. > > Re Eliot: I think that what Niels mentioned reflects what I was > thinking. All human rights may be/are applicable and they are > interrelated, interdependent and unalienable. In the text I am > referring to figuring out which human rights are relevant when > discussing a specific technical decision in the content of the IETF. > Admittedly, the answer to this question may not be always be > straightforward. Perhaps the text needs to clarify these points. I'll elaborate on my example: some governments would probably argue that human rights are being preserved through snooping activities, because they would say that they are preventing physical harm to others and following through on their responsibility to protect their citizens.=20 That statement is provably true[1] in at least small numbers, but that doesn't make the best course of action to avoid/circumvent/outlaw encryption. This is why I believe the hrpc is poorly chartered. Perhaps we could spend some time elaborating on which human rights are protected, which are violated, and when, but it very much depends on your overall view of government. Eliot [1] See Donnie Brasco as an example. --Ak5fjoe7ede55gbtxwGX1a5cjNCtOh6TM-- --WhRkO7KRs0je9L6qfrMRx3dCs6mQCG2Jf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZf6WDAAoJEIe2a0bZ0nozBKAH/3rmTUqD77f7KwkTPY6v6rfp CAnUdX0sI2hiQcGy0IQxRf4DQUNL6bucdOK44HDgUQK5uyoH64fbTtoxNwZ5HxAu f7sUAkCvd6X5tVEdEA2hJZ1ZJ/JW2/3ZQlJXYSBEIt6JFgh8yGPDzDFXRm/jkbrW 4C7PNBPg4T6Y/CXTVpGhcVkPu66ongC9w0Kkjvg66Mf1Jl/5YwqN1dBIG/Q9b9p6 2oJV0tlZmskukIHQ9aKkD+MKJeyU/pwUA34Tv0zaF2K3qGyYiaWQzVrtaDVqimrI 6po7DDjNyyGmBhVw0Q0XbU0csYLtO6YXqBs3XEvjHGkb9oDsTU+mjWT2Y4Zx+m8= =DwdH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WhRkO7KRs0je9L6qfrMRx3dCs6mQCG2Jf-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 15:03:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC3D0129B62 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fKBokIupgOIC for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F51C127010 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F59FBE4C; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:03:09 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ruut4VZK4SEv; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:03:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2AA65BE39; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:03:08 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1501538588; bh=I1yGyV0ms92qjtfLDJ1AZvpqh+fn4fsfQxdlTV1n20o=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EPHR8XQ813eHNHFWgdHrxhoMPRon+l8dwTjFVPmnWxcvi3bhACx29mgCVPNWYuq7G J4j12SpYieyu0M00j03NPf4kkzKH/651jOTRhCEnKO0c9JG71TxNVZsoRkltdVd0C4 msYksz8n/9i1kqcQGeSCZswlETUQo81k0xL9KkXE= To: Eliot Lear , Mando Rachovitsa Cc: hrpc@irtf.org References: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> <5c38b223-d84e-1896-5324-d234d3529a5e@cisco.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 23:03:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5c38b223-d84e-1896-5324-d234d3529a5e@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oA1sL90XkGeWFqtJGHkp3IspULrtmDxEg" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 22:03:14 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oA1sL90XkGeWFqtJGHkp3IspULrtmDxEg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="b635a86c2gGHP7XENN2wKwIEVTFHjP3E3"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Eliot Lear , Mando Rachovitsa Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Bob asks Alice about human rights References: <5587aca3-20c4-0aa0-6b3b-4615c80fabc9@cs.tcd.ie> <5c38b223-d84e-1896-5324-d234d3529a5e@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5c38b223-d84e-1896-5324-d234d3529a5e@cisco.com> --b635a86c2gGHP7XENN2wKwIEVTFHjP3E3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eliot, On 31/07/17 22:47, Eliot Lear wrote: > provably true[1] =2E.. > [1] See Donnie Brasco as an example. Provably true based on fiction? I guess F=3D>anything is logical yes, but it doesn't seem useful. If you want to claim the RG isn't well chartered, you need, IMO, a far better argument than that. And while yes, many governments will defend snooping of various kinds, when one considers real examples, things get far less simple, for example, a bunch of governments don't have purely monolithic opinions in that (snooping) space but rather have different bits of the same government with different angles. S. --b635a86c2gGHP7XENN2wKwIEVTFHjP3E3-- --oA1sL90XkGeWFqtJGHkp3IspULrtmDxEg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZf6kbAAoJEC88hzaAX42iGMcH/1wO+QhgtbBjaCURR55Y80oZ jDy2OAYEyN77hMJhjyuwsfHE3MKyFyHYFLjQqCtEiEZsODpWL9fq85Glagx9s7pL /Xf1qL8QdB6Y7O844B3TmoCP1Gc9i4UYJoXVSDCBjT0g8ai8PV/DoqiKrrJNBjQ/ 66dWa6sQdLBCcKMsHrbd9cBmHcF4ygyLESayBigtAqMYmNKoDooukx4pwvH8ZQEG Qpq66HaDXlTkBT7GbbAH361xizeRauDkdF8BTrG7bn5Q44AA5TMcqNfQsdFy52lC D1NequQNvfkCkDt+d9CjLSoF7Rwc9aPVyx8KapjaADP3Xo1gSYcx8a3zZb2StxI= =INgO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oA1sL90XkGeWFqtJGHkp3IspULrtmDxEg-- From nobody Mon Jul 31 18:20:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359C4131CB8 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:20:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=dzbBPEat; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=BDGSdBK3 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W7Ox4lthzr0o for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9495131A7C for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DAFB20749; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:19:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=LuhzGmoEb6dbpVNCBl Bu5aMGL3WRTGIV1dgT2jYor+A=; b=dzbBPEatDGdMrQqc4aAbtbF6rjVI4bRCJ8 TFw6Z/7xT/BaheUtQ+SOgRgpqz0/LWdsvslweewV9vuZwBSvS476UmlA4wOWPSFo Qk3NJNCqLh3Fs+kO6miVrPVr6047DLLN5Td0jv+HJj5bbvV+Hz7N5t+5jcUSz3S8 GUNBRLqdgktBhHq4zG2+rixjNTmvMWLArfNRfJeKsrvLHBZCQaxSCitIskmRdZvY jiKYpzTTEolszXtjGo/6IwM+Nzfmgt1LroOLKxdwUG9h7Kfj2jqbOl6cHi84Qc/u UHHo4MQ9+6rDZvhPchgdy1lMaBJ/yEJl7BwvNoviFBcMbe8MuiGQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=LuhzGmoEb6dbpVNCBlBu5aMGL3WRTGIV1dgT2jYor+A=; b=BDGSdBK3 DxlZYtFG7enZUidxmwVzgdqZDu/6dMGIETXGYy2UxeOk0Hds3KM2wDEWxvgtg9Ar /AhTGQldxIjAZSnkpM4MIMpbqulTd4yBjjyt+/CZLya7XjZa2W4QDor3Uo9gZWOV eCio8iK98uYUtp6AS+QWgZ/8gcxLwMQjcWjT76oTsrnlP99PuYhGAEYjGsV3MZQC 3P+lP4/ubxKb0S9tkmZxKlpn0ReCF0C15blbKojaLzO9wwKqYZDrfwC9tKTUnJKM Fn0ETB2ZZ15ck6V+vUUAfyZb9/bjySAnpfPUjKEaUVm/ianwah8ZRUArlNnWtFH2 Tn84iA8w6rHYvA== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: 5hnav6fVyNhIZmlwFEQ7cEzaUYWLPpMC1jks7dA0FFSK 1501550396 Received: from [192.168.1.18] (cpe-124-188-19-231.hdbq1.win.bigpond.net.au [124.188.19.231]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1AB5C7E51F; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <20170731194248.twu25kws5aa6q6vr@mir> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:19:53 +1000 Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8B62476D-D9CD-4F07-8F62-C8BEE692E642@mnot.net> References: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> <20170731194248.twu25kws5aa6q6vr@mir> To: Niels ten Oever X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] for the users X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 01:20:00 -0000 > On 1 Aug 2017, at 5:42 am, Niels ten Oever = wrote: >=20 > If this would be used in the isolated case of prioritizing vendors and = users, or operators and users, I would wholeheartidly agree. But I am = afraid that people might use the end-user argument to argue against = encryption and other values outlined in the baseline (for instance based = on usability). I think that this risk -- conflicting interpretations of whats "good for = users" -- is already present in IETF work, and this draft doesn't have = ambitions in that direction (in fact, it specifically disclaims = authority in this area). Instead, we need to work through our process = and trust that users are adequately represented in our community. All = that this draft really does is frame that discussion in terms of users. > In the human rights framework, a framework I am more familiar with, = one always starts out from the point of the rights holder, in this case = that would be the user. I think using the human rights framework would = also achieve your goals as well as ensuring that it wouldn't go against = the baseline documents. I think we agree on goals here -- having the IETF process grounded in = human rights (where appropriate). However, I *suspect* the gap between = them is too large to bridge in one step; if you look in the most = relevant document (the IETF Mission Statement), it doesn't even talk = about who we're making "the Internet better" *for*. That's the purpose = of this document; if it's accepted, presumably the next step would be to = start to tie user considerations to human rights. That's how it seems to me right now; very happy to talk about other = strategies / approaches. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Jul 31 18:36:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC99112783A for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=ZtRbYCsx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=SMCfOIQB Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TQM29aIQOmDv for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52C8A12700F for ; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B725120833; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:36:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=r++hSZM226bwUM5GkJ pjt9g6govmGJZLnw1kwm+/5CE=; b=ZtRbYCsxhhahCzHvmJhQDx6wy5zI+vASa2 olb0hkDjGYKVeEagNwqosJBcoykKQ9WPRJxMCe8EiZ1b/d8zMCBcY0siDqfFLLge xOemNNFavefDOd/H8iymfqHY74vau9VhDxLU/IPsM8PoAevf4HJ/WdfTMcEaEfyp NmO40bQV7YebhZ5UTCVu9A7CpMXfmQrzCD9H8MyMyQs4Vp3bfJI7lONiIdAClrb8 HmmfI4sMklA4V09tKHPlgLHmjslS2ocf6silNnwIRhOVT6Baf0Jco3V3fFA2q1aZ msDNA9XV7Dtd6cPS6hAtnRaXXh3d3FLf4AB6RJ10nhcNe5GmyQVw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=r++hSZM226bwUM5GkJpjt9g6govmGJZLnw1kwm+/5CE=; b=SMCfOIQB R3hVcZ/is3KGGYy5OfmaNywCTWesGZza27L/yfJVSB++qNjah+8iB2z7JhCKZLdb Ao7fZ97mXPrRndOi/v1PKMk2yL2eyIc7u0z6ohnrdzdqjieOIqOU26rGMVKxk8Lr FuYn7pbc8kN/x3bmdQSxOfOZqNBu7L0ATNrZ8Me7bBkjaSBrnVbWiebOB/ik1eGV Kv3b7TlaJ3WZxvjHFaJryQ0Q/B3YRPzGDFmi7D0fgeGpeevxQNWobVVbzjWPBRon g3SsBCBUQguvW7arCRh1m6qPemPzAnGNTB7ubRY9wtVW/wvhh0aim2crTxBxvjZU s+yTTHi4Um9/sA== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: 7HqadWKHNCM8TMrNhBve40/6tc9pfNgb/k2Im1HN3nak 1501551395 Received: from [192.168.1.18] (cpe-124-188-19-231.hdbq1.win.bigpond.net.au [124.188.19.231]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 674957E3B8; Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:36:31 +1000 Cc: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <151adee7-7524-567b-54cd-92d28b9615b0@article19.org> To: Mando Rachovitsa X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] for the users X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2017 01:36:43 -0000 Hi Mando, > On 1 Aug 2017, at 6:01 am, Mando Rachovitsa = wrote: >=20 > Niels,=20 >=20 > thanks for highlighting this.=20 >=20 > Mark, I might be asking silly questions but please humour me: >=20 > - What made you choose the term "constituencies" in this draft? = Identifiable parties/members of or communities within the Internet = community in your previous drafts read better to me.=20 Priority of Constituencies is a specific term from WHATWG/HTML5-land: = https://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#priority-of-constituencies It seems to have wormed its way into B.1 -- will change for next draft. = There's a lot of history here; I got bad feedback on many of the chosen = terms, because of bad associations / memories from other efforts.=20 > - I will echo Niels' comment. Why "needs" of the users? I get what we = mean in general when saying the real needs of the users, but in a text = this is a loose term. I preferred the term "interests" that you used in = previous drafts - it has a specific meaning within the IETF and at the = same time ties it to the scope of its work.=20 See response there. I can see changing "needs" to "interests" as = appropriate. > - On a more general note, I understand why the documentation of = potentially affected users/communities did not remain as a requirement = but was reduced to a suggestion/recommendation. Perhaps this = recommendation though could be made a bit more explicit and get = highlighted in the text? To my mind this is kinda important not because = I want bureaucracy but talking about needs/interests of Internet users = is so abstract unless one ties these interests to specific = users/communities. This does not presuppose documentation (one way or = another)? The underrepresented members of the Internet community unless = somehow documented will never have a fighting chance to play by the = rules of and enable the tussle. This is how I think about this anyway.=20= Makes sense, I'll try to expand that text. > - Finally, I get that the onus of the discussion lies in conflicts of = interests between providers or services and equipment AND users of the = Internet. How about, however, conflicts between interests of different = communities/users? [this may be completely out of the scope of your = draft but I had to ask :)]. I'd be surprised if it didn't happen. I don't think this draft is going = to help in that situation; we need to fall back on more specific = guidance, depending on the situation. Thanks! -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/