From nobody Wed Oct 4 07:19:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6049A132143 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:19:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQMGXKHKQ_vF for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6725132403 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dzkWY-0008HP-MY for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2017 16:19:47 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <9d8ddb9f-7f1f-86fc-a58b-f04e508b8a52@article19.org> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 16:19:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="svx96KX1qbGKjbTr33xOUOWLrrPWvR3xc" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 7cd323abaa3d0c03d168080f9b069a49 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Update, overview and questions X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:19:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --svx96KX1qbGKjbTr33xOUOWLrrPWvR3xc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MhQdGL24lr7mFeair7oCR0PQ1BxarMNcb"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <9d8ddb9f-7f1f-86fc-a58b-f04e508b8a52@article19.org> Subject: Update, overview and questions --MhQdGL24lr7mFeair7oCR0PQ1BxarMNcb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, A quick update from one of your co-chairs. Things have been a bit quiet here on the list, but I've received a lot of invitations to talk about our work here in other fora [0]. **IETF100 session** Luckily Sandra Braman will be available to give her long expected talk during IETF100 in Singapore. **Drafts** Gisela and I have been working on draft-association, taking into account the discussion in Prague as well some new research. We had hoped to public a new draft this week but that has been postponed due to the earthquake in Mexico (Gisela is fine, but has been very busy with supporting in the coordination of the humanitarian response [1][2]) Andrew and I are also working on draft-political. The two proirities there are filling the gaps and having a clear goal on how to make this concretely useful for an IRTF/IETF audience. draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14 made it through IESG review and Corinne and I are now working with the RFC editor to finalize the document. Listening to the recording of our session at IETF100 I picked up on Stephen's suggestion and I am keen to work on a draft that summarizes all the DDoS discussions that we've had here, especially because it is a returning discussion and the DDoS part in draft-irtf-hrpc-research got cut back quite a bit. Are people interested in authoring that? It would also be great to hear whether there are any updates on draft-anonymity ? Other ideas for drafts and discussions to be held during the session are also always welcome of course, both on-list and off-list. Best, Niels [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DP-5HCBO83v8 [1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/09/24/mexico-city-voluntee= rs-use-social-media-direct-quake-relief/698210001/ [2] http://horizontal.mx/verificado19s/ --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --MhQdGL24lr7mFeair7oCR0PQ1BxarMNcb-- --svx96KX1qbGKjbTr33xOUOWLrrPWvR3xc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnU7gEACgkQDtg/OkaK yLOajg/+O/Hdo4Ecr9Jw8aj4zBb+VKgLfakoKn18Tn/JOgPsLg8edUqC7hY7aBq9 81JLe5NhkmtBBf5pgWY1tUdC2GTJnHOsBNeu5exYbCIM8ri3dF7xyDjA6TRCMoJX XJLZ+9lPmAitiggQ89pP3gaxEJdZEyF+UfUU8wUDcQQTjzJAs7oX7GRheivWdMK/ L7abERAnSooI6mpslFDs4w18DB5B7hhSTpS63NPFwkDZ7CrsADltTxTQ/QxbsOEE tK8V7TXPB3Dpgsxm8iCU+JAZaWObhjEH7JLwX2y/G1+RpQDvHojNgIvwI1IvitHv WKWWOM2m5gP7fmHslxJsDSIGtEge7Q5c4zRWaNUDZ/8MPZDJT4zu/q3U2nkJvHMw QVdFFgirZqJHBXJnx/XKoAtHQdHasUvIb/mw4nvB4G9ZWkyTUcotNOXgd+IUSrJ7 oriNxt7oMddX3S9iJjQZRVmIdwyR3Ml7jxU5KRCohms/yp6FGh5e0dyI7Ymk8A5i cU5Ykgm+kA/tU3zT1SSibPWB/3oY5nYKP/y2uQAaVBlP4J8C2ZLgRQKA2NLqyPu2 FDAUsdM/A2Uor+yEUuBBwesaJ43vY3VCbrmcVz6UP8+PqcNe8i8FhrHWib96rCZt u4+3+g+ktgHcKBxXl+ZQfswNQEU67ZA/ms3KZAcTjvb+VkNGjBg= =lFZ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --svx96KX1qbGKjbTr33xOUOWLrrPWvR3xc-- From nobody Wed Oct 4 07:26:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D653A132351 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P5iKdSNjIpUx for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 416A21243F6 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dzkck-0001Gw-OZ for hrpc@irtf.org; Wed, 04 Oct 2017 16:26:11 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 16:26:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="T1gueb2NR6SPieIOgj20bPc2juvL6JrA2" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 448baf4759cd3283a5930955cc61e1db Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Ethics and algorithms X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 14:26:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --T1gueb2NR6SPieIOgj20bPc2juvL6JrA2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="gXw2RuTk5Dwbtc1AUn07xUJn1ubfGPVT2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Ethics and algorithms --gXw2RuTk5Dwbtc1AUn07xUJn1ubfGPVT2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some news that just came into my mailbox: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/deepmind-ethics-and-society-artificial-in= telligence I have been wondering recently whether there are any links between network virtualization and human rights, does anyone on the list have any ideas about this? Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --gXw2RuTk5Dwbtc1AUn07xUJn1ubfGPVT2-- --T1gueb2NR6SPieIOgj20bPc2juvL6JrA2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnU74EACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPeVRAAiQrwl2z2B02YnR3MP0TTJx4mM+F1VzCB9QtLz91kxjg4MfOAhN+bksdJ 7W8BgagjkvabwSXyCCgzXGRZsWQxtj6pG+WGEmIzbFyU1R5s1x9xYooEoXCDn+d7 Rwkjqss6+DjrFdWp+iDv7LXsmYt7rhi587PhJHPkAfOjaj/KpcYt1uBj0aLHSaZt +/QNFgG0H8kZ9KwCxdz8xQBQaKdIGw9ONnhtRGqjioDbJmuADVk9M/aymfc/bG5g gtlF+1yZJ6eRgFS7cr4lsCqCZAp5pU6XUYXUBHBtfU9jHNcHVDKLraatRCCF+lTJ fc+ufdpAdKvSNt3jg3DwZWRAWq0OiV9wqUUPRGc99r70jt674JacVSi7wwkfDVFy 9nAWM8LpnnGIQMPe+3lUattuEvJ2xLQblcsHJUmrSuwwfkiZetNP7zH66V+NZVPv 6PBRrZqOCU2m91dR5yYPWdkpw/sdS6gj47Zu5+b3gGOfkg3ErrxDpYFFOIDg/k9u LsJdfn/Ksd1oJRAIWBhNRNEwtMl6ZEsycfzBjJ1t1wS+jpJ0QF2c/CU0pVB+teig NPSeTCQh4Hj7J8+wrpeYIQYpwxZCq6pzjhXIuHLJSLapRo29MbLLuIIHgezsv6uY KssOKCXDSOuuRRl1Jyx+6YojjEq2hKljadIUW+wfztnmNVYZTVc= =V+JK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --T1gueb2NR6SPieIOgj20bPc2juvL6JrA2-- From nobody Wed Oct 11 07:35:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ADD913292A for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:35:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PXOfFqL426UG for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 588E6126CB6 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 815BD28268F for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 7CAC2282692; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (unknown [10.1.50.11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A3228268F for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721276424E42 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6AB42409F0; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 16:35:02 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20171011143502.hnidcu4qlvdqd3ap@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.1 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-3-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: Unsure, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.464639, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2017.10.11.142715 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Small remarks about draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-01 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 14:35:06 -0000 > it also makes it legally and technically very difficult to > communicate a message to someone who did not explicitly ask for > this. In public offline spaces we regularly get exposed to flyers, > invitations or demonstrations where our opinions get challenged, or > we are invited to consider different viewpoints. There is no > equivalent on the Internet with the technical and legal regime that > currently operates in it. This will make many people fall from their chair when reading this. The later paragraph "This could be interpretated as an argument for the injection of unrequested messages" explains it a bit but, still, I think it is quite provocative to say this without immediately saying that there is a big scalability issue. If it were legal/acceptable/normal to expose people to unwanted messages online, we would be drowned in such messages, and no expression would be possible anymore. Actually, allowing illimited sending of unsolicited messages would be a blow against freedom of speech: when everyone talks, nobody listens. > This reinforces a concept that is regularly discussed on the > application level, called 'filter bubble': I never really bought this argument. First, people who use it often imply that it is a new thing. It is not: people have been talking mostly to like-minded people for ages. Before the Internet, people read only the newspaper with the ideas they share, etc. Second, I think is is good to "get exposed to flyers, invitations or demonstrations where our opinions get challenged, or we are invited to consider different viewpoints" but it must not be imposed from outside. You cannot force people to read other's viewpoints. > because it is not trivial for an edge-user to operate its own > Autonomous System That's a technical detail. Even if it were ultra-simple, you would still need to be "accepted" by peers, by people who agree to connect you (whether they base their decision on money, politics or good heart). The Internet is a social network: you have to be "introduced" by other people (the real problem is that the set of introducers is too limited and too homogeneous). 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b=Fw5eBh1iOZptfSbZrutKvzqkJx0ped3wswd2mHvs2VInTSuWzd5UZmrV2c2dI1vHL10cm8xTc2h7QslQ+533IXoDrJuwyPJFydRsa0eKQNkogPGSkaouWpXqbQz2Jj0xDGHghR4mQ+GaBFkDt9UGWA5/9CEVeqFS2EueCguG/L4= Received: from CO2PR0801MB2246.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.166.214.142) by CO2PR0801MB2247.namprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.166.214.143) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.77.7; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 19:52:51 +0000 Received: from CO2PR0801MB2246.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.214.142]) by CO2PR0801MB2246.namprd08.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.214.142]) with mapi id 15.20.0077.020; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 19:52:51 +0000 From: "Goldberg, Elizabeth" To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: Study on End User Policies - Support Requested Thread-Index: AQHTQsqFlouDZ6X4vEmnUHSiF3zBbw== Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 19:52:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_4B510CE832604876AA61B397590F1185yaleedu_-- From nobody Thu Oct 12 01:36:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045E0133200 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 01:36:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nQIUNmlebwmm for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 01:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CDF8132076 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 01:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e2Yyh-0005Ak-8W for hrpc@irtf.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2017 10:36:27 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <62cbf343-2f8e-98db-3a06-417915599abb@article19.org> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 10:36:25 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KRIIVGMEBPQFdxW99Ip6ImgFlfmH19Eo5" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: f0e1c9854a9562d49e95611d158cd3d0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 08:36:33 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --KRIIVGMEBPQFdxW99Ip6ImgFlfmH19Eo5 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="G3b4TiVjf3U2q8b2oTJKtkepvWRLjtlSP"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <62cbf343-2f8e-98db-3a06-417915599abb@article19.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested References: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> In-Reply-To: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> --G3b4TiVjf3U2q8b2oTJKtkepvWRLjtlSP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, A small addition to the email of Beth. Beth is a stellar student at Yale University and she is studying corporate responsibility among IT actors. In the field of the garment industry, banks, and the extractive industry the United Nations Guidelines on Business and Human Rights [0] [1] have become common practice; 1000s of companies have signed up already: https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/find-companies In the IT sector the UN Guiding Principles have been adopted by some actors (Ericcson, Nokia, Telia Sonera, Cisco) but not by all. This is exactly the topic of research for Beth. From the companies who have adopted the UNGPs she would like to know: what moved you to adopt these principles, and now that you're using them, are they useful for your business practices? =46rom infrastructure companies who haven't adopted them she would like t= o understand why. Is this because you never heard about the UNGPs? Because you think it's useless? Or because you think it' a distraction? I've probably overly simplified the academic methods and questions of Beth here, but this should give you some insight. For us at ARTICLE 19 this would be tremendously useful to see what is needed to further understand human rights impact by the Internet infrastructure. We are developing an Human Rights Impact Assessment Model with the Dutch ccTLD registry (SIDN) [2] and we could potentially do this for other infrastructure actors (hardware providers, IXPs, ISPs, CDNs, etc), but we only want to do this if this makes sense of course. If you have any questions, suggestions or criticism, feel free to bring it up here or contact Beth and/or me off-list. Please consider giving a small amount of your time (or from the ppl in your organization that would be responsible for this), to this research. Thanks in advance, Niels [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBCoL6JVZHrA [1] http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/GuidingPrinciplesBusinessHR_E= N.pdf [2] https://www.article19.org/resources.php/resource/38700/en/developing-a-hu= man-rights-impact-assessment-model-for-internet-domain-registries Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 On 10/11/2017 09:52 PM, Goldberg, Elizabeth wrote: > This is a quick interlude from discussion of the draft. I am hoping for= > kind hrpc members=E2=80=99 help in the form of conversations with those= who work > for Internet infrastructure companies. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m conducting research with Article 19 and Yale University on = end user > policies of Internet infrastructure firms, broadly defined. I=E2=80=99d= > specifically like to discuss firms=E2=80=99 implementation and accounta= bility > mechanisms developed to meet voluntary corporate responsibility > initiatives, such as the UNGPs. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Please send me a message if you would be willing to connect or make an > introduction. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Many thanks, >=20 > Beth (and Niels) >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > --=C2=A0 >=20 > *Beth Goldberg* >=20 > MA-MBA Candidate | Yale, School of Graduate Studies >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --G3b4TiVjf3U2q8b2oTJKtkepvWRLjtlSP-- --KRIIVGMEBPQFdxW99Ip6ImgFlfmH19Eo5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnfKYkACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMO/RAAgfFVRorP1EvK9buzT/APFlq/tAdjlEvPTGLqjCporWFC/dD6gjpMXsHi j1pR0wlyoD/NJbJ3NIVNgZscpPkvsc/F3RTp7Kuas9tdegbgwCANCRbur8Gwab5S 6P8xA6fmXSrcMNSOx4IwOHOA/vVJ4fLE8xa0g+/Z0EBcZBHNBGDYW3HSsHd5bBEa IwBDYIrNp0pKYFrD7AdhnqT/VsbtqWGW4IJ2mDwJzg0vcOetP5mVhWuaaNrKW527 Cd2fOIs0P+nY4Yw4TnVYrHP4aY9N0Oqp9pang1Ssca2wwuiX1IFI5Xs1iBM0Xhny ZSlO0zPV4FSi395SlyywYcrEFHScG8vhmydopCCSjjo+w1pUoTEfo4WIeqp4AuSk ulU9kULPF50YmnZP+zHwbGHPeXiQc1EP5zKLhA4WF28ytKWIdwfsjHzAHPhWdpVK Oql2bEOjz/szI73XHg2BHSZtoe1oEDuDufPzJBjj96O+tVa01EaJjwesrNki1EXg on5/ydIFyUwTL0iGaJbKQ9IAo1mu5xRcr3+tYwZkIVzzAUlBUBYqA8dUqjs8Cp7L mLx2WMeXSJMDIjmvNQ7Fz4SyyCICUw3ekA8Tuz3vSJ43wWzJi9o5DGObE5W6WMg7 szU/eiy0oAxdlBJuzDHhESZzkOh58k4jyvsEdiMUh59elCLwD+E= =Focu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --KRIIVGMEBPQFdxW99Ip6ImgFlfmH19Eo5-- From nobody Fri Oct 13 01:08:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17D71320B5 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 01:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BbswoG_yUEkT for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 01:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (mx4.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:67c:2218:2::4:12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27FAE126B7E for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 01:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 552B7280713; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 500) id 4F371281501; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay01.prive.nic.fr (unknown [10.1.50.11]) by mx4.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4672228135A; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from b12.nic.fr (b12.users.prive.nic.fr [10.10.86.133]) by relay01.prive.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B766427BE0; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by b12.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 36C37409F2; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:08:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:08:03 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20171013080803.dwjieijlxvpu4ia6@nic.fr> References: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> <62cbf343-2f8e-98db-3a06-417915599abb@article19.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <62cbf343-2f8e-98db-3a06-417915599abb@article19.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 9.1 X-Kernel: Linux 4.9.0-3-amd64 x86_64 X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) X-Bogosity: No, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.308843, version=1.2.2 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.0.2142326, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2017.10.13.75716 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 08:08:07 -0000 On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:36:25AM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote a message of 172 lines which said: > From infrastructure companies who haven't adopted them she would > like to understand why. Is this because you never heard about the > UNGPs? Indeed, I've never heard about it. I'm not sure of what they bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by law? For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the point of going the UNGP way? From nobody Fri Oct 13 05:47:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4E813293A for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 05:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QzpTU_WC-pM4 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 05:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27A6B132705 for ; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 05:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e2zMd-0000FX-Fk for hrpc@irtf.org; Fri, 13 Oct 2017 14:46:55 +0200 References: <150789857807.23882.10009212735411546291.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <150789857807.23882.10009212735411546291.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <78389030-e8ff-1f38-f249-46310b1bc6f4@article19.org> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 14:46:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <150789857807.23882.10009212735411546291.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="heC1IPuagCSXPxgpvF8LTLcIm767G5CPh" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 2d0a7f6a049cc125cd28f2ceffdc0173 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] New Version draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 12:46:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --heC1IPuagCSXPxgpvF8LTLcIm767G5CPh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3nJTsqrgQNMAgkSjuE4dVbFcWxRSUo16m"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <78389030-e8ff-1f38-f249-46310b1bc6f4@article19.org> Subject: New Version draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02.txt References: <150789857807.23882.10009212735411546291.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150789857807.23882.10009212735411546291.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --3nJTsqrgQNMAgkSjuE4dVbFcWxRSUo16m Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, As promised, a new version of draft-tenoever-hrpc-association in which Gisela and I have tried to address comments from the session as well as the well-times comments from Stephane. We've been working and discussing this now for a while so perhaps we could have a discussion whether this draft is getting read for RG adoptio= n. Best, Niels -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02.= txt Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 05:42:58 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Gisela de Acha , Gisela Perez de Acha , Niels ten Oever A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-association Revision: 02 Title: Freedom of Association on the Internet Document date: 2017-10-13 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 21 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02.t= xt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-association/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02 Abstract: This document aims to scope the relation between Internet protocols and the right to freedom of assembly and association. The Internet increasingly mediates our lives and our ability to excercise human rights. Since Internet protocols play a central role in the management, development and use of the Internet, the relation between protocols and the aforementioned rights should be documented and adverse impacts should be mitigated. As there have been methods of protest on the Internet -a form of freedom of assembly- that have proven to be harmful to connectivity and infrastructure, such as DDoS attacks, this text aims to document forms of protest, association and assembly that do not have a negative impact on the Internet infrastructure. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --3nJTsqrgQNMAgkSjuE4dVbFcWxRSUo16m-- --heC1IPuagCSXPxgpvF8LTLcIm767G5CPh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlngtb4ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLN6DQ/9Es5GmtpICoC1yPB2Nl1+KkNbn72p13p+Dh6Qw6U7U9zpGfpDqEgoKg7H ECaA/u2eENfzsSR79xkT90WyNiRwgWYeMdQTflYPFHM+OSS0mryM7ffMetFBWZlu uwOZZFoJCbT2BI6x1/rF8mTbNxdezQw8MUMbC5CJ5miQl/RJFacID0beEyCFiOe2 bpiNF0jO8WnpaxmdORNQ8LLPk7o/tUqVKIzOXvAAc1FdhMBZwZOE/inU6OAHrE2p 5CENymFlKEIhz4Seh1b/6HIRojUOG/sJOTqXkLYnhZrUx1aW1nwKhikY0G+iwEP4 8yyQqpnCayRUIwUthRNIbK4EMH1hneAENGdx1oB7Yuhy/cPWCiiysjpzKjEngsT+ pE4xKy16V6Ont0JpMfs9eg3ZZspiPHcz8g//Bp1ytPvXquLlQsxk2AMq/GUO1Or8 Ych+PhYXhgIvrsSvjUQ8stkNK16vgCBh1mS1dbTW/n7v3A4FmU9g1hWh7pUaaA9N lmf/s6jNDUq6DBqRtzHaaZfpiXZCgmYDXmaGU+eQKFaxxllIrCjwkYRs4EuAxkUN gQtRBgcuTryY/ol4KrFtc5GnAsnoHym+0yl8CrO1f8cN5PrdFYv9nqclcr0tNEdM LgyJOGvs2xruN5P6wQQRyFRVQ/L2UwoFgxmjMDwqgT8IAHOEziM= =/wd/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --heC1IPuagCSXPxgpvF8LTLcIm767G5CPh-- From nobody Fri Oct 13 13:18:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB0C1329F9 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CO2PR0801MB2248; H:CO2PR0801MB2246.namprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: yale.edu does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR0801MB22464D3DE8C19B68CAC7AEC6ED480CO2PR0801MB2246_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: yale.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Oct 2017 20:18:48.3411 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dd8cbebb-2139-4df8-b411-4e3e87abeb5c X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR0801MB2248 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-13_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710130282 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 20:18:58 -0000 --_000_CO2PR0801MB22464D3DE8C19B68CAC7AEC6ED480CO2PR0801MB2246_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephane, thanks for your questions. Responses below: >Indeed, I've never heard about [UNGPs]. I'm not sure of what they >bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by >law? >For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the >point of going the UNGP way? The UNGPs are gu= idelines for states and businesses to prevent, address, and remedy human ri= ghts abuses committed in business operations. They were developed collabora= tively by the UN, businesses, and civil society from 2006-2011. The point of the UNGPs is to set a global, authoritative standard on what i= s expected of businesses and states to uphold human rights, along with a bl= ueprint for how to prevent, address, and remedy abuses. They are the first = such widely endorsed initiative that defines responsibilities for both stat= es and businesses. The UNGPs differ from policies like the GDPR in a few critical ways: - The UNGPs are voluntary. Regulations like the GDPR, on the other hand, co= me with a hefty fine for noncompliance. - The UNGPs are comprehensive in scope, encompassing all internationally re= cognized rights in international law. They encourage states and businesses = to identify their own human rights violations under international law, then= address the most salient violations. The GDPR relates specifically to data= protection. - UNGPs set global standards, while the GDPR is only for the EU (for now). = While abuses like slavery are obviously unlawful in some countries, they ar= e not in all, so the UNGPs aim to put peer pressure on businesses globally = to raise the bar and meet global standards. ________________________________ From: Stephane Bortzmeyer Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 4:08 AM To: Niels ten Oever Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:36:25AM +0200, Niels ten Oever wrote a message of 172 lines which said: > From infrastructure companies who haven't adopted them she would > like to understand why. Is this because you never heard about the > UNGPs? Indeed, I've never heard about it. I'm not sure of what they bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by law? For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the point of going the UNGP way? --_000_CO2PR0801MB22464D3DE8C19B68CAC7AEC6ED480CO2PR0801MB2246_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Stephane, thanks for your questions. Responses below:


>Indeed, I've never heard about [UNGPs]. I'm not sure of what they
>bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by
>law?
>For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the
>point of going the UNGP way?


The UNGPs are guidelines for states and businesses to prevent, address, and= remedy human rights abuses committed in business operations. They wer= e developed collaboratively by the UN, businesses, and civil society from 2= 006-2011.


The point of the UNGPs is to set a global, authoritative standard = on what is expected of businesses and states to uphold human rights, along = with a blueprint for how to prevent, address, and remedy abuses. They are t= he first such widely endorsed initiative that defines responsibilities for both states and businesses.



The UNGPs differ from policies like the GDPR in a few critical ways:


- The UNGPs are voluntary. Regulations like the GDPR, on the other hand,= come with a hefty fine for noncompliance.


- The UNGPs are comprehensive in scope, encompassing all internationally= recognized rights in international law. They encourage states and bus= inesses to identify their own human rights violations under international l= aw, then address the most salient violations. The GDPR relates specifically to data protection.


- UNGPs set global standards, while the GDPR is only for the EU (for now= ). While abuses like slavery are obviously unlawful in some countries, they= are not in all, so the UNGPs aim to put peer pressure on businesses global= ly to raise the bar and meet global standards.





From: Stephane Bortzmeyer= <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 4:08 AM
To: Niels ten Oever
Cc: hrpc@irtf.org
Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested
 
On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:36:25AM +0200,
 Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org> wrote
 a message of 172 lines which said:

> From infrastructure companies who haven't adopted them she would
> like to understand why. Is this because you never heard about the
> UNGPs?

Indeed, I've never heard about it. I'm not sure of what they
bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by
law?

For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the
point of going the UNGP way?



--_000_CO2PR0801MB22464D3DE8C19B68CAC7AEC6ED480CO2PR0801MB2246_-- From nobody Mon Oct 16 07:08:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1CE132F76 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCoIio9OzRnc for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C9E9132F30 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e464I-0002Ef-O2 for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:08:35 +0200 References: <150816277258.32739.10605430026460568569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <150816277258.32739.10605430026460568569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:08:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <150816277258.32739.10605430026460568569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IDNRfDK6m5DEBDNQbrtrlD5U5fIomSPML" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 9426f5d1bab314603f7b21e0d362b3bd Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:08:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IDNRfDK6m5DEBDNQbrtrlD5U5fIomSPML Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LRJiArBgd6Ls7j6dP1NSju5kCaQSmjoQi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00.txt References: <150816277258.32739.10605430026460568569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150816277258.32739.10605430026460568569.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --LRJiArBgd6Ls7j6dP1NSju5kCaQSmjoQi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I hope this email finds you well. Please find underneath a new draft on DDoS and spam. I am very curious to hear your thoughts on this. Initially we discussed bringing this solely up as discussion on DDoS, but the spam discussion seemed very similar, so I thought let's add it together. It contains parts of the association draft and earlier parts of the research draft and new material. Happy to discuss! Best, Niels -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00.= txt Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:06:12 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Niels ten Oever , Gisela de Acha , Gisela Perez de Acha , Corinne Cath A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested Revision: 00 Title: Unrequested Communications Document date: 2017-10-16 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 9 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00.t= xt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 Abstract: This document addresses the topic of unrequested traffic in the form of spam or DDoS attacks. Instead of solely discussing these topics from a mere technical angle, it also addresses human rights implications of unrequested traffic. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --LRJiArBgd6Ls7j6dP1NSju5kCaQSmjoQi-- --IDNRfDK6m5DEBDNQbrtrlD5U5fIomSPML Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnkvV8ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMqIA/+Ny5bCEbOJnUyl+I/rsYE4yn0z8C3L3X7XPvM1pK5ub/rDbFyVt5W+8yt b9PXDUZFw8PNhYcQ1ogwtxhClYPC27tRaQIersa4gyWGPwbOLtkz8Rhq7IVCtiaJ +KTxm67hzhMP2Sht6+2+Lk/AVXnFV1F7iOh0qbteUzgww2rUJZ9n0lbPPUqW+wMe kPC8N7n3SE/Q5BuGw/xkQb7dbDeqS763gPif6SDAp7vwn8Sqcu7EvqIaLxSpbOPJ 4yGiFNDBqRfPSrMpagpXrPSnPoAekD0xFbG9wTJrjXPC046jbAsaKAfJjs4B/EiZ s4A0kjtO6FpTB7DLTlLWTKjVLc/TAJxYCCiZVo58m+HQlzNbf4I/x+/Zu5iubDl9 GDJ6RIFIfSIREFY+Ni0r3QpjIBCjSlCePodpT+dUDNjlX2tkCdt/yghHu9jmhVqL QpDTrWu4w3FzHWckjhziBPOnQxd/H7QstXR1lj7pq7m0sX5Zz3RSTLHHVT1iw+qz Ap9MUIBuHCj0TR2Y/Npf3stDsHLibrsUv9A7hpXg71Svs841A3vBPcMFzbBb0F7U OqnAbCz6AojW5DfcoB5rWHhfQ6872jbsQSqbmFaWjvwxpo7hxBkZyp0n43lI/Syr GYNkt/YtIRznoxUr3pD+4ZRgm6Q6cEPSulMCk8Y2RkS+NAyfwjw= =qmT4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IDNRfDK6m5DEBDNQbrtrlD5U5fIomSPML-- From nobody Mon Oct 16 07:12:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D35A1344ED for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xwpW0R6ikzMX for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6A07132FA7 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 07:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e467y-0003Hx-Gg; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:12:22 +0200 To: "Goldberg, Elizabeth" , Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> <62cbf343-2f8e-98db-3a06-417915599abb@article19.org> <20171013080803.dwjieijlxvpu4ia6@nic.fr> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <1c9481a6-c8f2-0b08-c558-c3a150550131@article19.org> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:12:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XxbT1LDRnV2hr5KSuIGCTUXHmg9WWvA9P" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 00ca572c58d2a72aaa1283be2358df10 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:12:30 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XxbT1LDRnV2hr5KSuIGCTUXHmg9WWvA9P Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="N85k9d1rtWGQtxVE689gLKv89PUpicPD9"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "Goldberg, Elizabeth" , Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <1c9481a6-c8f2-0b08-c558-c3a150550131@article19.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested References: <4B510CE8-3260-4876-AA61-B397590F1185@yale.edu> <62cbf343-2f8e-98db-3a06-417915599abb@article19.org> <20171013080803.dwjieijlxvpu4ia6@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: --N85k9d1rtWGQtxVE689gLKv89PUpicPD9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition to the excellent explanation of Beth I can perhaps provide a few other reasons: - UNGPs can be seen as a for of 'non-financial risk assessment', so it prepares an organization for everything that can happen. This was also a reason (as far as I know) for Vodafone to commit to the UNGPs after what happened in Egypt during the Arab Spring when they largely cut off to the country. - I've heard from ppl who implemented the UNGP that GDPR compliance was much easier since they had already mapped everything and built clear procedures - UNGPs allows mapping for all human rights, which is not merely a compliance issue, but also a exploration issue to understand which layers and organization in the stack and the infrastructure are responsible for what, which in turn also helps with informed policy makin= g. Best, Niels Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 On 10/13/2017 10:18 PM, Goldberg, Elizabeth wrote: > Hi Stephane, thanks for your questions. Responses below: >=20 >=20 >>Indeed, I've never heard about [UNGPs]. I'm not sure of what they >>bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by >>law? >>For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the >>point of going the UNGP way? >=20 >=20 > The UNGPs > are guidelines for states and businesses to prevent, address, and remed= y > human=A0rights abuses committed in business operations. They were > developed collaboratively by the UN, businesses, and civil society from= > 2006-2011. >=20 >=20 > The point of the UNGPs is to set a global, authoritative standard on > what is expected of businesses and states to uphold human rights, along= > with a blueprint for how to prevent, address, and remedy abuses. They > are the first such widely endorsed initiative that defines > responsibilities for both states and businesses. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The UNGPs differ from policies like the GDPR in a few critical ways: >=20 >=20 > - The UNGPs are voluntary. Regulations like the GDPR, on the other hand= , > come with a hefty fine for noncompliance. >=20 >=20 > - The UNGPs are comprehensive in scope, encompassing all internationall= y > recognized rights in international law. They=A0encourage states and > businesses to identify their own human rights violations under > international law, then address the most salient violations. The GDPR > relates specifically to data protection. >=20 >=20 > - UNGPs set global standards, while the GDPR is only for the EU (for > now). While abuses like slavery are obviously unlawful in some > countries, they are not in all, so the UNGPs aim to put peer pressure o= n > businesses globally to raise the bar and meet global standards. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > *From:* Stephane Bortzmeyer > *Sent:* Friday, October 13, 2017 4:08 AM > *To:* Niels ten Oever > *Cc:* hrpc@irtf.org > *Subject:* Re: [hrpc] Study on End User Policies - Support Requested > =A0 > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:36:25AM +0200, > =A0Niels ten Oever wrote > =A0a message of 172 lines which said: >=20 >> From infrastructure companies who haven't adopted them she would >> like to understand why. Is this because you never heard about the >> UNGPs? >=20 > Indeed, I've never heard about it. I'm not sure of what they > bring. Surely, these things, like slavery, are already forbidden by > law? >=20 > For instance, we are currently busy implementing GDPR, what's the > point of going the UNGP way? >=20 >=20 >=20 --N85k9d1rtWGQtxVE689gLKv89PUpicPD9-- --XxbT1LDRnV2hr5KSuIGCTUXHmg9WWvA9P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnkvkQACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPZsw/5AQ8U9sJ55NbJMVDMLiIYSCCwZZI3iDQUGgneqs3A+8ColKBIW7m2N1Qr xnJlqFUhG1f3KYB1ZNf5Z5Z/XbR85TJYj2Y8bOQhHErarifDreJfqqQevwgwkxac kN4Jsvf6KTehWSJuez05kjK+V1DLhtYkU0AhxEOIFc8y4ichfT2IWy4BD5tjQ8fV 4VnV00+xayG3C7Gcc1mpV/mIVv3AO6zVqXGIbpxonOxq295JW6LufIdHZpZWkz93 bFjZyssAdiWKJD3rzrF7yWk53hg1PPaVUTGK+gZhFt4k4/uAjUJZftOj8NbaGnN9 6M6tZdHE6BmiqiSB8m4n3sEymDdU/Ef6PdSk122i9ZyYDLcp5AX3b+moXyao6t4f sCurVczktCAJQ6AwzCv58ilhAKaWrbgNWynF16cWreXyRwTNw+z12HNh5l+frXAh YC8IlJJjulz6/YIr1tktRMh+VZzVJ1p7l44maPKDzt+hL4AZHZWdsEFXlfI+6vD9 kDmfqCScRR1xuyNEIKusVR08/xg2BFMyfAG/DNAMNbGRlUbNxevXolSNq4pGCGCA OQHNMD8kkDHlbTcSqgLT3emAX0N/Qn0xNyixYQaC6JZNKxaqqZ4URv6l1KCyFET1 CT/AW5FM1/Jfzwk2NxofN7USmLDkdke44xEW7S2JkgwMzA3B5OM= =7iZL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XxbT1LDRnV2hr5KSuIGCTUXHmg9WWvA9P-- From nobody Mon Oct 16 09:04:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD9713307B for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:04:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yrMsEcygDrdB for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2DC2133072 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e47s6-000510-PU for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:04:07 +0200 References: <53016025-b657-872e-6242-f23ad600f4f0@digitaldissidents.org> To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <53016025-b657-872e-6242-f23ad600f4f0@digitaldissidents.org> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:04:03 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53016025-b657-872e-6242-f23ad600f4f0@digitaldissidents.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wg8Rgd3XrujpbXm1uBGkrpFnlCO4a5UqF" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 025acf9a139f050bc01ccdeba87e03e0 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: Re: [regext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-02.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:04:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Wg8Rgd3XrujpbXm1uBGkrpFnlCO4a5UqF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5RLr9UN448WIMH59X8XT8XfkPsuWmr2Qa"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: Re: [regext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-02.txt References: <53016025-b657-872e-6242-f23ad600f4f0@digitaldissidents.org> In-Reply-To: <53016025-b657-872e-6242-f23ad600f4f0@digitaldissidents.org> --5RLr9UN448WIMH59X8XT8XfkPsuWmr2Qa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [regext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-02.t= xt Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:03:33 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: regext@ietf.org Dear working group, I remain very concerned about the potential negative impact of this draft on the right to freedom of association, the right to privacy and the right to freedom of expression. Even though this was now brought up several times the author does not seem to want to explicitly address this, which I think is problematic. Please also see our earlier blogpost on this: https://www.article19.org/resources.php/resource/38577/en/corporate-actor= s-must-not-facilitate-human-rights-violations-through-new-chinese-rules Best, Niels On 10/16/2017 01:58 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. > This draft is a work item of the Registration Protocols Extensions WG o= f the IETF. >=20 > Title : Verification Code Extension for the Extensibl= e Provisioning Protocol (EPP) > Author : James Gould > Filename : draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-02.txt > Pages : 35 > Date : 2017-10-16 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes an Extensible Provisioning Protocol (EPP) > extension for including a verification code for marking the data for= > a transform command as being verified by a 3rd party, which is > referred to as the Verification Service Provider (VSP). The > verification code is digitally signed by the VSP using XML Signature= > and is "base64" encoded. The XML Signature includes the VSP signer > certificate, so the server can verify that the verification code > originated from the VSP. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-02 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-regext-verificationcod= e-02 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-regext-verificationcode-= 02 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > regext mailing list > regext@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/regext >=20 --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 --5RLr9UN448WIMH59X8XT8XfkPsuWmr2Qa-- --Wg8Rgd3XrujpbXm1uBGkrpFnlCO4a5UqF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIyBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnk2HQACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPgfg/0CZfxv2OGiGw/czo1Tk+JdHLby5jC2AENEJpw5yCKNkgq7e/4cQ2VDxjw ugOV2WKAcZ/AmfmXL5ovAqS3EPNJ5CYL+rkP4IxUyQtnFbQ+cYOkDlgVpsGxUWTq h6YlfXqDQBbDQDz7fdMGaKyrmuQZDS+5WKw+GdXIlisHGDIIlGmdzwiSlI5o/WJ0 95zHSFvhjW70A9NArNPV5zGOIjEI2pA0keeydDvDCrXkA1GQYbU0lBXQgssuPLdO auXLW486rLW/ObrcoycRrQCwAlN1qIcFateFusP8Khzp6I9oRQHbCZrmSwSleOgM zHK4R6gKJBOUVLWzYOrIAjT0p7ztixrxDxcjsrY+w3rwnCnv9KfG1Y7U80JFzjAJ N0zlwxjtg/PvJWvtiV/S7rN58X7nHyKYubVSi80zJ9aDauqkrcrGY2q6wVBsIpGq KOvXoYFkwt4UxeK+/4czXvDAF22yO+yM1/7HHm4+7mIjexY7X1XGGiDy/k5ydhlZ Y5PUDqQLhExAz6cRar7EGiitLksHXoh1RRq31jKOcfSBOQxwgx06HYVpLclCMvtd KqNsbxK+jzXEPGEuX8DLGyv/xzNtuP7Ji649Gxmejjy5EZh4Q5QNmVU4GGPn9zha AUzyY+Qt9djtmmUvg95xuZ/r7IwZqIw1uurqqOeq3WwCMBPaug== =4oW6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Wg8Rgd3XrujpbXm1uBGkrpFnlCO4a5UqF-- From nobody Mon Oct 16 09:43:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F22313207A for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3dprvCQSDAA1 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98ED91286C7 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e48UL-0005tk-ML; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:43:38 +0200 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:43:36 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20171016164336.4sade6ygx6nvyiyn@mir> References: <20171011143502.hnidcu4qlvdqd3ap@nic.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ckvwgyshezsb2uai" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20171011143502.hnidcu4qlvdqd3ap@nic.fr> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 7cd323abaa3d0c03d168080f9b069a49 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Small remarks about draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-01 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:43:43 -0000 --ckvwgyshezsb2uai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephane, I hope the new drafts addresses your comments! Cheers, Niels On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 04:35:02PM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > > it also makes it legally and technically very difficult to > > communicate a message to someone who did not explicitly ask for > > this. In public offline spaces we regularly get exposed to flyers, > > invitations or demonstrations where our opinions get challenged, or > > we are invited to consider different viewpoints. There is no > > equivalent on the Internet with the technical and legal regime that > > currently operates in it. >=20 > This will make many people fall from their chair when reading > this. The later paragraph "This could be interpretated as an argument > for the injection of unrequested messages" explains it a bit but, > still, I think it is quite provocative to say this without immediately > saying that there is a big scalability issue. If it were > legal/acceptable/normal to expose people to unwanted messages online, > we would be drowned in such messages, and no expression would be > possible anymore. Actually, allowing illimited sending of unsolicited > messages would be a blow against freedom of speech: when everyone > talks, nobody listens. >=20 > > This reinforces a concept that is regularly discussed on the > > application level, called 'filter bubble': >=20 > I never really bought this argument. First, people who use it often > imply that it is a new thing. It is not: people have been talking > mostly to like-minded people for ages. Before the Internet, people > read only the newspaper with the ideas they share, etc. >=20 > Second, I think is is good to "get exposed to flyers, invitations or > demonstrations where our opinions get challenged, or we are invited to > consider different viewpoints" but it must not be imposed from > outside. You cannot force people to read other's viewpoints. >=20 > > because it is not trivial for an edge-user to operate its own > > Autonomous System >=20 > That's a technical detail. Even if it were ultra-simple, you would > still need to be "accepted" by peers, by people who agree to connect > you (whether they base their decision on money, politics or good > heart). The Internet is a social network: you have to be "introduced" > by other people (the real problem is that the set of introducers is > too limited and too homogeneous). >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --ckvwgyshezsb2uai Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnk4bgACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMYgBAAnbrSS9tG+HWMRNO7w9LNgOOi2jvrz79TlNiOPfwhsf6m3G1I0Tmwwg11 jVBgTiI2jBY7GejmjuX91OyfIxpSGiyk9yFpTSfcNcg709YgGDcMyo3UesrR4PwP VJypDHprGIj9ReHqsb8Bt12EsoBA8IPM2aW5QlIX396SZoiKCl5CH8mlV7U7BGOa mHNuoJIUQa9ujGkI/DGsmC+i8kQ0ER5fwAiPtd105KMaYlFJqI8dS4STnBNz92kR 7TYpkE+BT7VQIXNxtCgJB/koudUOTh9gCs4PYbYC4kSE7cZO47aUVjDKjIuw6c3d k3uxiJ9vVN0Y3aVFr2S0oXqQ9sTv9L0uHjkNuUSUWcp4g1m9pXKBw3QFEEdDclYs EMMbk4Mr00oCanAb0feshNlBmzWYigS5Tb5sURNZ7OE8d92QiPsEmwQpXkrDbb+c EalynLG/OyRU7vzbX3LTgK+k27/DgfyY6lSVUkEnXgFYLTsWCfb2L/6S6Jjm3qam r4aqBfS1JOnXNV3ji6VctNDeGZEhrRMKejL4epg2clnj/bO0Ci17rbWd0VhTUIkT 6dR24lGYhevWyarMOG2I87oUI9yoGE0qinllNAi68p2gV/Q6/8PNj68XVchJrAV3 qp7BIHKU0qf/3rGkR/mrWZgvyFIyr72QHIbDTlydQgiY6jX1YpI= =EMTc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ckvwgyshezsb2uai-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 03:58:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A694F1321A2 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 03:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id snob8OwFq6fQ for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 03:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ED24126BF0 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 03:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e4PZj-0004Pl-MZ for hrpc@irtf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 12:58:20 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <6385258e-36be-2fe0-62e4-8e13a4506fe9@article19.org> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 12:58:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iXsRRvsKreRDAnQhu700P4W4eg4EGxiH7" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4868b52b90b9144be14ceb212c82ef23 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] preliminary agenda X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 10:58:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --iXsRRvsKreRDAnQhu700P4W4eg4EGxiH7 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="iLQ5ANa3mnTW8vD3PFONVW5HvVHDedODO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <6385258e-36be-2fe0-62e4-8e13a4506fe9@article19.org> Subject: preliminary agenda --iLQ5ANa3mnTW8vD3PFONVW5HvVHDedODO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, As most of you have undoubtedly already seen, the preliminary agenda for IETF100 is out: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html We're scheduled on Friday morning, with a conflict against HTTPbis, which is arguably better than our conflict with QUIC last time. That we end on Friday morning might also be a feature of the two hour session we've requested since last time, but I think it's good to have time to discuss. Please let us know what you think. If you think we should ask for a re-scheduling request, please let us know asap, since the deadline for that is tomorrow. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --iLQ5ANa3mnTW8vD3PFONVW5HvVHDedODO-- --iXsRRvsKreRDAnQhu700P4W4eg4EGxiH7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnl4koACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPx1BAAksEF8Eporz2CpVxlwR/1m4tyv75OvmppUl5ggu7H53lfFsuIDGOFs+kO AFeCbQ22CW645HTCyeGJrO6yILYo6RMEALa2NKO49C3wHeaMMtqhEn9tkbcUeeU3 p8x0O0QktZ42v61CLM4lgCEc149LQdOw0fjlLGVV8wEzf6Ukhu4HHG48OogOLb2H dapfqqp9mCsugmfAZlXz0WyjLQhNrFJH5M/w5SPFg4Z+oSjrvolyTNlFB88XU6xW 00xyKJhCnKOyr6f832d4nx8xGdBiqyxzxdjsg9V9eFOF8PBSgA46U095WSrPQh/s dhmAeDSB7aymRBWRO/WegeEZoYApW/WCn8+D9cYAq6licGOnmzK9fxNjuiUsWGao rDRQqqwS6e/+McIu8IoQxdC+dF1JmUKhojhM6aqEYOPsAm7Dw0HIS+2i8U60XhQH fs0LSF3Ek1+Wur2ZHO7Rc7RXI8pE0aCnP9z32hoMT8M+L1kfcoMAbIy44fe5X/M5 9Jih8A+6dlI1GiAQfDrN2TIGfqvqmvUTzT9RPK1SAmScs7uBvLdCBiWzC1loTEew GXO2GlTNa52uy4nGjOHIms4K7dbi5pvQ/LbXn/gU4osv54giFyKalmMBKI7pMzEO 08bTNfR2kzHYfqZs4Q+VQc0b2042EaLnlxfhTjxFHk0jtktDqxg= =Wy07 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iXsRRvsKreRDAnQhu700P4W4eg4EGxiH7-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 04:54:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF94132F69 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 04:54:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EMip1jvMzt34 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 04:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3C66128D0D for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 04:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e4QSB-0000Bj-Pp for hrpc@irtf.org; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:54:36 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:54:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="goX0l4WTiwRjwOHK2fmsJO9ARI9xllNmF" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 2c269fdec788119c0964d98755c55204 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] RFC & ID & paper X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:54:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --goX0l4WTiwRjwOHK2fmsJO9ARI9xllNmF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="4MOVS5TWwmk6xNqSu6i40jOTI98ql4vgr"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: RFC & ID & paper --4MOVS5TWwmk6xNqSu6i40jOTI98ql4vgr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I wanted to share these documents with you because they seem very relevant for our work, and somehow they have never surfaced in our discussion, as far as I know: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-morris-policy-considerations-00 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3D2060656 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3426 They all seem highly relevant. Happy reading. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --4MOVS5TWwmk6xNqSu6i40jOTI98ql4vgr-- --goX0l4WTiwRjwOHK2fmsJO9ARI9xllNmF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnl73oACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMNFg//Y0AazPC3mYPT1j2ZN5/+DNRf4nBZQU4BU+ELScLLK+PoP0LMPmT8DRm8 48HOYalUPPu8H0VRlSOUvuR0cS3UCINGDlV/YK7JH7IHI5ZbfajSN0aVOdF6CInc 3V+LLZ5+rIi8SaMk3kS9SAWINdezQJjTKSVcTkQhID/TlfN6YzT2riaf4WtLBqXI dWMkEKBnKJgKVC5/drb6ogciutAO0WuLytKh5OkK4v/LNpR2bo0LWlWfumYqoBst 2xPvKA+CxsBHM1a0eAqiep/CEr8jXcn+LgNNh5XQlQtezRO2udJGjC4/180ab5bT 9y6bi+KEfm6v3JVbLz5M98CDms0xD6U7CWLhPXaSSzuk6jG2SjTrkrWPUSMqWJBW N48ebekSha5HKy/I/bHjNfCOxPWVLQLHHfT5fyROttfq+l1rsQJDdtS2v1U/7MmE bNG+WuNK6Omk3xwxmK/C7L7DP7cFw5ZJsItemN5ji/kjOrKvncs/MTXHHpcqZlTZ 8h2HUnOBeKu+C30agx+LnXBvaGrYvuNuwIJ4D14Dn+nSQGRL2uYBOgwYjix0RihV u8NdKZLrVlEPaam7XEAuv+V3ctWvUfsOlEDtH+HGl80J8WyVjsB/tWpzpEzgStmI OOOtjtDallmUj/33818v5tJlJbZ1KRUyiRsOXDLHxp4J/rPztt8= =jn/I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --goX0l4WTiwRjwOHK2fmsJO9ARI9xllNmF-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 11:54:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0037A126B6E for ; 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h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=8ziXJohUsiPHMK+UOVGX//CBrmcuE iFjGWVI8hlLoJU=; b=aYEI7mpBwQALf7yOf+J1BdGFzKc3cf0fg/YCjZRZ/K9wu jhmDbWLy5divih8fwSnVprv/rGRNsC1uNUep1xWCK28cUaNBtL7nhqP71R6Slfyt pikJmCN2crgQW3bCUYj6Ok2iwmbU9Wk9KQUgPCrPxDTCK5ACWyq3faL2VdkTtVz+ Y4VS19P6nX7X+ic/i6OUEjg0s6a6HbrlBMx2ee2m0xo4vXIeleo96dJxfZIx2csV DIZTE7QQxbEJO81CyfjVFCcddkv7bAa75IIyz/XpY/M1/BzsywWOR8TsKgrokFgK E8Yly/BRmPvirAa7QGGPzz0/CIbrVpGVEUZodkjiA== X-ME-Sender: Received: from Giselas-MacBook-Air-6.local (unknown [189.207.174.197]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA8A624138 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 14:54:15 -0400 (EDT) To: hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Gisela Perez de Acha Message-ID: <8b022376-770a-962e-2f20-bc848a69c626@derechosdigitales.org> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:54:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ma7aMIJouSneKdqW6It0wKwoGLVPx6so0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] RFC & ID & paper X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 18:54:19 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Ma7aMIJouSneKdqW6It0wKwoGLVPx6so0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="lklD8mKF6XQUnTQ3191DoPfauGObedD1P"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gisela Perez de Acha To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <8b022376-770a-962e-2f20-bc848a69c626@derechosdigitales.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] RFC & ID & paper References: In-Reply-To: --lklD8mKF6XQUnTQ3191DoPfauGObedD1P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: es-ES Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Niels! These all look great. El 10/17/17 a las 6:54 AM, Niels ten Oever escribi=C3=B3: > Hi all, >=20 > I wanted to share these documents with you because they seem very > relevant for our work, and somehow they have never surfaced in our > discussion, as far as I know: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-morris-policy-considerations-00 >=20 > https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3D2060656 >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3426 >=20 > They all seem highly relevant. Happy reading. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --lklD8mKF6XQUnTQ3191DoPfauGObedD1P-- --Ma7aMIJouSneKdqW6It0wKwoGLVPx6so0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZ5lHXAAoJEK3mymyvegy4sR0QALdC+OeA18pgetKG1AF7QxPd gFNzz0cfh5JdapLKTfiyT+96//ggZCs/Kb/moUR/6ewaMAOYqOwEw8YBvJy+V+rf 4VtEyzINB+DaRcrhrQj9ZQE6oZOFZRdVAP0pxO8+S2BUmfvjjolKhqDpHfEiRCHc rTB3eJcgJeBpnYWSZRVeFOAlfcYIAFzPLz8rs0+KZD2YBdKCiFUXIDrkUOve/b4D CTGOHnsFSSo7DpXus7GjtTRkJ4dHnyWSaL69LFR7ZqjEqTK0c1SRVD6lnbt1V4MS 2kPg5tJAEorayr7hBQlC7c5LBWcoWdqea4KBt8x8nd4guiohXcOFBoUBmbi8kQbo c375rCuT94ifWJ6Cde80F0QUWfLauE+c8oJ0x/+JLTY7JeF5UbizYI7IXBFdcZ4/ wlDUatx8r8srrBCwVLybGQwouViFjLFAVDviGjAos2kbi4ju4gbaGmuhnsMyWf01 e9DJ6eiR6k7BTT3BgtipFbTSGI8OnoMhCki9baccJrD+2iy6c4Lrxsc1c0fwNaiM ehH4DGd3wYwcoHILVmnU8k1XGw1LIKMkczKC0X+6QIdQDgc0JLJWmDxjC2CZ+hOQ 969GMSDw/4k/saNsnKVOqYlKdIa7cct8fXcR1LdwcsWHBlYpbujdS/EQ+G2E6LIK oM8/pYiTF1i3Qi7wiXIP =GTG9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ma7aMIJouSneKdqW6It0wKwoGLVPx6so0-- From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:32:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@irtf.org Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119381345AE; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, irtf-chair@irtf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150854547306.20809.9647826944321591844.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] hrpc - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:24:33 -0000 Dear Niels ten Oever, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. hrpc Session 1 (2:00:00) Friday, Morning Session I 0930-1130 Room Name: Padang size: 300 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Human Rights Protocol Considerations Area Name: IRTF Session Requester: Niels ten Oever Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 120 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dnsop Second Priority: quic Third Priority: saag People who must be present: Avri Doria Niels ten Oever Resources Requested: Special Requests: Pls don't conflict with HTTPbis either. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Oct 22 11:57:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C330B13A7F1 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 11:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kX59i_Wl5IJ for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B40713A7F4 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e6LRS-0001as-CF for hrpc@irtf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:57:46 +0200 References: <150869836480.5314.5378332710487453157.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <150869836480.5314.5378332710487453157.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <31b43eb4-8a5d-02ea-8e52-c3856b324c8b@article19.org> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:57:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <150869836480.5314.5378332710487453157.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Lwf3qLmLO4lUaRCL1wvbNkhcqjIw69ALv" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: a9e4b997d6a751f3e45cb47a3c2b1d2c Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 18:57:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Lwf3qLmLO4lUaRCL1wvbNkhcqjIw69ALv Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FVwT2QPn8E3WWVDm2f5UCiKMDSVn04j7U"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <31b43eb4-8a5d-02ea-8e52-c3856b324c8b@article19.org> Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02.txt References: <150869836480.5314.5378332710487453157.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150869836480.5314.5378332710487453157.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --FVwT2QPn8E3WWVDm2f5UCiKMDSVn04j7U Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi hrpc, Yet another document. We've been discussing this one quite a bit, but I think it became more rounded now, also with an increased economics considerations part by our new co-author Amelia Andersdotter. Greatly looking forward to your review and discussion! Best, Niels -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02.tx= t Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 11:52:44 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Andrew Sullivan , Amelia Andersdotter , Niels ten Oever A new version of I-D, draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Niels ten Oever and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political Revision: 02 Title: On the Politics of Standards Document date: 2017-10-22 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 15 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02.txt= Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political= -02 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02 Abstract: This document aims to outline different views on the relation between protocols and politics and seeks to answer the question whether protocols are political. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --FVwT2QPn8E3WWVDm2f5UCiKMDSVn04j7U-- --Lwf3qLmLO4lUaRCL1wvbNkhcqjIw69ALv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlns6icACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPmkg//T3AkELuk+llePdUZ1OZOcOwwGTKQcPgPYGVGBX3AzVzJWG+VLNuBCiW0 ApE1WKqY04Hr9ussK1u0udntOqpaAttV4jRDjHHwyQDmhavgOSArUoGTcBTipXTD Z4S8nNZkIe+es2LiQTg7X/a5yp7zi8I0NXo54D4+unJ03r+2qTE6yGBhFsWV/HxW px+9akUJcw4eaQ8LqadpJ6IuAZhih1D9DDKx9Gdqy4pKNqI9dPEkFgiVU5/Es9Vy XzDSO6miBkXEIP5tNFgNhKrjWoxQdMeRnJ2EW85A6DV4ns58wUsTyriWtX0fK1u9 k28G/JddEtvfJW4EGvAhW5nFv49IPuE4BEODa2KW1ztiIugxeUJqXVFeRmdbVtFG 1j06+ggfwqFjeUEru6j+1xKllYj1eyHmEgJsePexEDeK+0TM4V5uIxMrEbkDX/Ia 4Kmt4VZRwmnY0smz5mFerlsotjvfrOPM6NoMvoKJI0WCKJXfGiykT+l7LX2cjF+F V/Mogl42v2r1R6qI89fsqnkJFWrsbCVToJnRdJEjzJif68myHUfbGVfCUFVrdM0e XrEGMD4W2qPl7rz1MdiMvSebXd2roCVADEasCn0t9fmPOyWEYqzdcXiB80Nho2i9 7b0WF6MMqku2E2GFv2re6RBCm9+7nF+OKxYJDm3AizZD0srtS8k= =gJEE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Lwf3qLmLO4lUaRCL1wvbNkhcqjIw69ALv-- From nobody Sun Oct 22 12:21:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAFB413AAA9 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JQisAL3cmIk6 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE0CE13AAAE for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA18BE79 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:21:06 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 89IW5HeP0UjP for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:21:05 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E371FBE73 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:21:04 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508700065; bh=lvqFlWhhtaHfjotKWBbvSoSFoZBJAaO92r0aSye1edw=; h=From:Subject:To:Date:From; b=dmkXBIiw8SugqvnGM52WK5jQFsVteemj9alAx1UFK6w7Di2/4L//xtHsimz/3gsZy aK3WaZ6iapydpe4PSWIWX1BCBVJiN8LTrOlM/oe06JX93h+43wWEwP3aiY1IncSecW i2BhpQrMcE9mKLnJ/ae9G4QsAHhKjEVSZJNrHSos= From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <02e0869e-c056-1c97-5242-b6004b1ca197@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:21:03 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pocsgqIjCV3DSJ40WJ2CA7WbB1bh1vAuN" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:21:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pocsgqIjCV3DSJ40WJ2CA7WbB1bh1vAuN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="44AF8Kkd6WEIf1WEKiq35qg5U7S1gCLsR"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <02e0869e-c056-1c97-5242-b6004b1ca197@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02 --44AF8Kkd6WEIf1WEKiq35qg5U7S1gCLsR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I like the idea that the RG adopt a document in this space and work on it as an RG consensus document. While this is far from done, I figure it could be a good enough starting point. Comments: - For me, freedom of association is less about protest than the document seems to assume (I might also be freely associating just to organise to go to the pub:-). I'm not sure if this leads to a bunch of minor edits or to a bigger change. - Research question 2 needs more explanation. Maybe I'll get that before I reach the end of the draft. - It's IMO an error to not include analysis of FB or other closed systems. There has been an ongoing tension between those and open protocols (jabber etc) in which the latter have so far always lost out. I think looking at that could be useful. - Section 6 will need work but that can be fleshed out as things go along. Right now, I don't think the text is at the right level of detail - it's either too much or too little. Maybe some thought as to which technologies to describe and why might lead to some better structure for that section. (But I don't have a specific suggestion as of now.) - I think section 6.3 needs a lot of work and has some errors that need fixing - I just don't buy the filter bubble argument, as presented. - 6.3.2 should be deleted. DDoS is only an attack. (I seem to recall saying similar before:-) - Section 7 is pretty bare - what's the intent for this going forward or do the authors think it's done? - I'd like to have seen some examples and references to how various folks have used the Internet to freely assemble, in both more and less threatening situations. I think that kind of information might be useful to protocol developers, if presented well. Cheers, S. --44AF8Kkd6WEIf1WEKiq35qg5U7S1gCLsR-- --pocsgqIjCV3DSJ40WJ2CA7WbB1bh1vAuN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7O+gAAoJEC88hzaAX42imnsIAJhWceP5w/5VRlTdrHri2YVo 6KiioeOL9z6kZnVd13HVz48YlDVKvBIzt6/d/HXpQHqls1TZ7kcuY/8mMX/6yKhn HpcR8Xlq1kQbaU0p2cGbgzJ8IQeU+MG47wjrGtBNnRA7Dl/IHt8Fe02lO039+RTh JPKd6y+oGtCwBjFXuOCX/ApRoTPTjf8d+5C9qXoBQVCYsdQS34OPUBNfez6BzwGn hslTxyKl9Ya4lxjrEfKOPzSmxZrfyhT7d4V/2V5YzQYxZTQYmvWTUzGcUoPBtlcW ac3jX9rKxAsJ+9QzGgn6F11AAJLdUAMOYyGe/hntuyt1wmSmKeQGuCF4oNI5dvQ= =+/95 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pocsgqIjCV3DSJ40WJ2CA7WbB1bh1vAuN-- From nobody Sun Oct 22 12:22:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB49113AAEA for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asmT-VCIHhls for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C7A313AAE9 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BBABE79 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:22:40 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrbiuTH8V_Ms for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:22:39 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B28EBE73 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:22:39 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508700159; bh=MMCY7l0bwMN1yyYvcrLsq4yxtG13KK/c700feisqrl4=; h=From:Subject:To:Date:From; b=EWES1fj+S6Y7CKD3/fXZQNi5zneeGB54NxMhxJziTicMBmbmSYB46bcQUQ75MxulK IWNYnCYVqY/+Tfnnl3M5Pbn4ThtGwdf2qrusLtaTdoYpry/drZpC1ktCiNk8IS/sP8 +Ek5ggK/K/XPxGxH4Qc4CDbFpi86iLUs9E5vBN9w= From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:22:39 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="U6me6W3v6KqBsCd6ALuXROpRdiWbeuxLf" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:22:44 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --U6me6W3v6KqBsCd6ALuXROpRdiWbeuxLf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wHfRa4BH7qj84vnGgb77bTMG4q28JRiMd"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 --wHfRa4BH7qj84vnGgb77bTMG4q28JRiMd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I had a read of this. I don't think it's in a state where the RG ought adopt it. I'm not even sure it's worthwhile to keep working on it, as is but there may be a reworking of this that'd be good. My main comment is: Who is this for? The only audience I can envisage are folks (e.g. activists) who'd otherwise maybe think that DDoS/spam are legitimate vehicles for protest. If that is the target audience then it ought be written for them. It currently is not and would need a major re-write for that audience. I could maybe see value in an RFC that did that. Put another way, I don't think this text is convincing in deriving it's correct conclusion, which seems to be what it's attempting but failing to do now. I don't think an RFC that attempts to derive a proof that DDoS-is-bad would be a useful RFC. It might be a fine thing for some other publication venue, who knows. So I'd say either drop the idea of documenting this, (*) or, if the above target audience is agreed, then do the major re-write to set out the conclusion (incl. in the abstract) and then explain why that is correct in terms the target audience would understand. S. (*) It's ok to not pursue every idea, maybe this is one such, not sure. --wHfRa4BH7qj84vnGgb77bTMG4q28JRiMd-- --U6me6W3v6KqBsCd6ALuXROpRdiWbeuxLf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7O//AAoJEC88hzaAX42iiiQIAKtxkLPSmT3R5fjv0Dm1OGDT hCHSo7MzLy6fS9WxPGHpsbgUO1CYzvB7SguFUWqTWDES8t2AU21GXha+NUVg77Hu prWN2kAkH1Q6yCBqYKLLaakseUkG+xB3OsYMOM1rv6aH/dhGFsqL4ryQ59XFdc77 CBvr0t3TfHj3PbHnKE2icUzs7BmnPrGHRJwBXi8gISHhymmqD1f1HH+SJgseX7YU wx7WHAJf2IVTR3n+Ycbguo9WHMLuUp8XDXnUbmROsF0sQUnk2t9h8C57lPn/ttg5 Fix79Myokt733xlHbtrTg6t0sEkEXNdPBWVbYPqQ3rM6OoWlD1lsATB/DDCIANM= =RJBB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --U6me6W3v6KqBsCd6ALuXROpRdiWbeuxLf-- From nobody Sun Oct 22 12:24:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E2213AB17 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gkQWsgMXWbZl for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC98A13AB0F for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1355BE79 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:24:07 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tbiLF6BQFWJU for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:24:06 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 81630BE73 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:24:06 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508700246; bh=nxLoiPxhMmCg6NYLO41KlQoIp1apS8NfuyFRBwK74h4=; h=From:Subject:To:Date:From; b=yDlVtHRNqQTnMbF/lh3My0ZmuCaKhqn4c9uk1U3YwuDD+YFJVnL1s5GM+ttNNQjZ+ zFsy6mfhMKhNQpYEQLNxnKQghGC0DZtzJT9zZFQ0eITw4K5IH2OQsd88MzzIZwplHE +Oow9wkx6dmQRvINfvJPWaWNPGCRhPhDwe/oBNgs= From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:24:06 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eSc3QkSjX6InmcK7mxo4nL0txwq4d9dfo" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:24:10 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --eSc3QkSjX6InmcK7mxo4nL0txwq4d9dfo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="xs5ql6SaHwx66UrOQmQeiIsi3Xl1N85Q3"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 --xs5ql6SaHwx66UrOQmQeiIsi3Xl1N85Q3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, So I don't think this is in a state that the RG could adopt it. TBH, I'm still not sure what I think about this one, mostly;-) I don't accept that this gives an answer to the question that is posed in the abstract. Nor do I accept that the RG or any RFC ought try provide one answer to that supposed question. I could maybe see some value in an RFC that documents the various positions, but that'd have to be done in a more balanced manner. The current text is pretty uneven in terms of how it explains the various positions. While there is text that acks that IETF processes do involve some kinds of politics, I don't think that's well enough developed to be part of a cogent overall argument. I don't find section 10 at all convincing. S. --xs5ql6SaHwx66UrOQmQeiIsi3Xl1N85Q3-- --eSc3QkSjX6InmcK7mxo4nL0txwq4d9dfo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7PBWAAoJEC88hzaAX42iHVUH/jX9wfRB/UQEgoNtKYYXH7wh 5M8JWpjn0kYdxvC3KZG7iP/33ZZKi6QPlsX7uG0gC0U39SKyQC0VWVQ6vG4O3IzO 6b3e0ubI4WoPfioLV3KvVyzKcAvAU5WWMRBTNlQ82CUySDJM5dGToTgFRQ2Mm1Wm Xw2VYyhmLt02bdzb/Bp3AzJvPr/LNTvYqHDQwgBu1zQE3DyDMchQ1aj0xQ/vFFrV uCBgcidDl8WwptY9c0slXhxsHRF2otYsqc67IWiLsHp4+owAd1qpx56aLfB7i85e Wbi8jcf5wQCK6Fw8taRx9gk+Wt03IdlDbPLuYaH29hQGxhniv8EZbkxUQAF9JjQ= =xghi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eSc3QkSjX6InmcK7mxo4nL0txwq4d9dfo-- From nobody Sun Oct 22 12:26:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052ED13AB2A for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihhuE-q7gQ_M for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 897BF13AB55 for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e6Lt2-0000sN-SF for hrpc@irtf.org; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 21:26:17 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <494049a6-3e22-6524-64aa-05a041b3be7f@article19.org> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 21:26:15 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9Jc8aXdnBipvn32ja8pns6XA4ElH3JIsd" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 6c56b5a68734eff3bb82063186e8a5cf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:26:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9Jc8aXdnBipvn32ja8pns6XA4ElH3JIsd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RBdaQwtxSpxXQQdXovI9eeSsD2abn0a3R"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <494049a6-3e22-6524-64aa-05a041b3be7f@article19.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 References: In-Reply-To: --RBdaQwtxSpxXQQdXovI9eeSsD2abn0a3R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen, Thanks for the review, just checking, did you review -01? If so you might wana check the diff for -02: https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?difftype=3D--hwdiff&url2=3Ddraft-tenoever-= hrpc-political-02.txt Cheers, Niels On 10/22/2017 09:24 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > So I don't think this is in a state that the RG could > adopt it. TBH, I'm still not sure what I think about > this one, mostly;-) >=20 > I don't accept that this gives an answer to the question > that is posed in the abstract. Nor do I accept that > the RG or any RFC ought try provide one answer to that > supposed question. >=20 > I could maybe see some value in an RFC that documents > the various positions, but that'd have to be done in a > more balanced manner. The current text is pretty uneven > in terms of how it explains the various positions. >=20 > While there is text that acks that IETF processes do > involve some kinds of politics, I don't think that's > well enough developed to be part of a cogent overall > argument. >=20 > I don't find section 10 at all convincing. >=20 > S. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --RBdaQwtxSpxXQQdXovI9eeSsD2abn0a3R-- --9Jc8aXdnBipvn32ja8pns6XA4ElH3JIsd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlns8NcACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMI/A/+OWK0edJOF4pMDv98UlAIFt3b3Cbh+Qn0acbgV3G1yE189D4HBwPfp9CW MCn+iC+Hn5tdBt7Atp0TRmx2NpA+I7GasX1EeY98ppXGX/0oJ9wV8b52AbuQy/qf PdhcnuyIWa25g/nfoJj829jOg7OyniX+PRdU/B5/GMTo4yq3WfcoXQLPTmCM1bdY 8BiUMGZypSAOYjY9KJuJwbvWyaeflfS1KYABu4ZK2A6sf7LXOV7R93iVQxSdr1E1 DaqUSfMCDYdnwAjKdSfmV0BiKO2Yl7CtYVVnZ9Fvts/fMVQ+YskSU5k2RMQI3qpe ovwzuAeyqx6uqQKPj6BRtY3RLT+I0OV0lt9+/eQI0dE2+vwQ4zNvqXke+nolSaeX u/g70scRsSWmvc61B4lBF4wRUUR491jKBykLyFXrKls4aZOftrRQfDblIG2V/Jit TbdThqwW22ZGX0stxxTE12SOWYigzA6LHwWpi+E3T6U1m7nO4P3b+5fW6YSMuif8 FdKqkmW8GexLz5swC0oNCfodX3LbDZV3EkjA2tf1pQQAcSAO2zkRBt/hlwqPpIcz Nws3PwJA4RfMJqb1QtObMEx4IiSChRYNTrtpRlHGg0oZgoi3RQx0TW2qs+KrgQgQ b0Rtn+NSq58MMHuW2/z7Rd3uE9aJ1GdhWsdWj7uw2QO84wB9wG8= =c6jf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9Jc8aXdnBipvn32ja8pns6XA4ElH3JIsd-- From nobody Sun Oct 22 12:35:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7E613ABAC for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s04brYGmDC3G for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B987F13ABAF for ; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 12:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE98BE79; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:35:35 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s7OcPtnsB6Dz; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:35:33 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E81CBE73; Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:35:33 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508700933; bh=FqPyZhxudT71gtiElsiKLMeri0EFDSpn2sp974/tLME=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Ia1zfv1VezoNhMCNfJuAkM6oleO3gdouJjPvkZ5sxyI+hZLsz6L3+a+ANGoqmlxHF JcctDiNZcA3lfF9LtIO5G+a2DikbzsvB74FMB8u9MMSc9cLf2ukgrOzPt5GSurGQSA PKZltYYYEwvG5T0vW24Y9UI0J4cTjAtMkPZ4b4OA= To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org References: <494049a6-3e22-6524-64aa-05a041b3be7f@article19.org> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 20:35:31 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <494049a6-3e22-6524-64aa-05a041b3be7f@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tRUhVePiQ0WavNJm36JkMIDEPbmQ38MEb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:35:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tRUhVePiQ0WavNJm36JkMIDEPbmQ38MEb Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LsoogoBl7g1XBsGBrrhM0uqiA1cUXO1WJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-01 References: <494049a6-3e22-6524-64aa-05a041b3be7f@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <494049a6-3e22-6524-64aa-05a041b3be7f@article19.org> --LsoogoBl7g1XBsGBrrhM0uqiA1cUXO1WJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22/10/17 20:26, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 > Thanks for the review, just checking, did you review -01? If so you > might wana check the diff for -02: I did review -01 sorry, bad timing eh:-) My first two comments seem to apply as well to -02 as -01. I'm not sure about the last one, as you've changed a good bit there. (Won't be looking tonight though, sorry.) Will try give it a re-read before IETF-100 and get back. S. >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?difftype=3D--hwdiff&url2=3Ddraft-tenoeve= r-hrpc-political-02.txt >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 > On 10/22/2017 09:24 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> So I don't think this is in a state that the RG could >> adopt it. TBH, I'm still not sure what I think about >> this one, mostly;-) >> >> I don't accept that this gives an answer to the question >> that is posed in the abstract. Nor do I accept that >> the RG or any RFC ought try provide one answer to that >> supposed question. >> >> I could maybe see some value in an RFC that documents >> the various positions, but that'd have to be done in a >> more balanced manner. The current text is pretty uneven >> in terms of how it explains the various positions. >> >> While there is text that acks that IETF processes do >> involve some kinds of politics, I don't think that's >> well enough developed to be part of a cogent overall >> argument. >> >> I don't find section 10 at all convincing. >> >> S. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --LsoogoBl7g1XBsGBrrhM0uqiA1cUXO1WJ-- --tRUhVePiQ0WavNJm36JkMIDEPbmQ38MEb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7PMDAAoJEC88hzaAX42i+78H/RH675wWQ86SIh8EobIZVGAM KueI/aIBEMoxhPCH8QVcdlnXu4W4kJcBAS8gsXSzXQpx8Mf36GN4uSQL+E96D08f BHHvBl56HkwEJvqmhm0IPhKAqsNKnPVu/mCMXB5kpdjub/64owxUT3Ritu4TxrYf dz6++3pLNleZbOHTo44IoDK3x49BREpUSYXiFj3eip5eJJTXhYYVNF/gtbhXi3B/ RIn+7qUh8x/l7tKfKH4r354XdbjGleLox9g9Y9fj+2+oRIu0rx2+RXA9/UfaB1rA b4o9iKJJK3tOGSzCi5SAaPg3KaabthifJPGz6P2V77QDGpz0vQKpNHppyj4sHao= =crE7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tRUhVePiQ0WavNJm36JkMIDEPbmQ38MEb-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 01:46:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71FC13F13E for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 01:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d0GkIbNQzkVY for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 01:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D029313F145 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 01:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e6YNp-0005qv-3O for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:46:53 +0200 To: "hrpc@irtf.org" From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <092fe913-9e71-d454-3e8c-9b1cfde47508@article19.org> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:46:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="erjiaQ61fcClUdABcUnPe5AGx7Ap7f2Jc" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 4868b52b90b9144be14ceb212c82ef23 Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] stepping down as hrpc co-chair (by the end of the year) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:46:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --erjiaQ61fcClUdABcUnPe5AGx7Ap7f2Jc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="tDLIpTd3WeF9U4Ks5HIFXfov1WbVPNpK5"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: <092fe913-9e71-d454-3e8c-9b1cfde47508@article19.org> Subject: stepping down as hrpc co-chair (by the end of the year) --tDLIpTd3WeF9U4Ks5HIFXfov1WbVPNpK5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, I expect to step down towards the end of the year as hrpc co-chair. I'll be stepping down as Head of Digital at ARTICLE19 so will have less time to devote for coordination and organization, but I hope to remain active in the RG as an author. It is probably a good idea to have a bit deeper separation between the role of active author and the role of co-chair. If you're interested in the role of co-chair of hrpc, please let Allison (IRTF chair), Avri (co-chair) or me know! Please let me know if you have any questions regarding the work. Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --tDLIpTd3WeF9U4Ks5HIFXfov1WbVPNpK5-- --erjiaQ61fcClUdABcUnPe5AGx7Ap7f2Jc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlntrHwACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNbBQ//cFYyOfJHxqBHxM5DwT65zA+M+CUCrsVzLpZL6VitrwuunSnvAxCq6PkC FRLK++2gKF8iFF3B/FbZGvg2ZHLKZYIv4HyV70LCcVoYuB67t2rXxiQGO/Yp0DZk fgKpjA5ALHWsSDMEif56YOdLkzyxh1EPanjxg3nW4YBR2FitsneAvEM6u/+HPWCI 0OnKTmLy+zWzdL0wOw4mZKzxeNd+/3T3HXdNd28Ta3c6FQ9/MEQlIhuykjsP1+zZ ncMRI9n4cZZubQH1AzhJNNdId9vIwjZ3uwRL4cAx3OnVq1HRVqfjX0CF5I2l3u8I Z7+UWcOLz8xSID8ayJULmUF+MqSDAqGTrItZZqNYBuPWT5uyDHcdZstJUsBTD4NM X6puaaQf8UNtgL5mZMJZKXEHJNjf/w0RlFL2VEy6BJU5BbIXr9I22PRUmqDYRnhN GNsJx0zWX5AoaOsgOGVPYKrbKde7ONk1S27V365v+mg9YWwpX5mInJn/xlIg1vhg Mij0mIrfuCQ1yIcH72YQVaQmr1Q+tRWg7pN4Zj1TuDz8hJIZ9/R249t3glpI9+KG kHE/0J5X0rD8Z/dccY1Bhl1H5vDWuYe9IpkBvkJHKYYUiACfW0e4TJpjlQMfNp2B a0HkcEOzHvNnaXXNAiIHYZMH37bnjUD3vWa37HB8fJi9ykh0GXw= =9TJq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --erjiaQ61fcClUdABcUnPe5AGx7Ap7f2Jc-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 02:01:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540AB13F313 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 02:01:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DZBfzsdhCYkQ for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 02:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2597A13F310 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 02:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F068BE53; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:01:21 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DLnFeQlR7d2S; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:01:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7D05BE4C; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:01:19 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508749279; bh=Af/Gmm+iNPUOwYakjGUYtCEtnNKTgNMxqf0OSZcfZvo=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=0lQkSkF4rRYpe+KqWKi0hYTM9pTcep4zm4JqooFWs0EiPddH/VZS3ggBQe8nEQic0 +3J608s3tG/zriVaKh38sTBju7woE8WJXKqkWZTcaP4E/JoZ7WeV1nM+X4EKHQxfv/ AzymcjovnDON9l4o1B/emtQMZIlI+Ysj8luQfjZc= To: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" References: <092fe913-9e71-d454-3e8c-9b1cfde47508@article19.org> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 10:01:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <092fe913-9e71-d454-3e8c-9b1cfde47508@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wu4bCXRDd7GVFJxCq4qDeqXdD96xmTF33" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] stepping down as hrpc co-chair (by the end of the year) X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 09:01:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Wu4bCXRDd7GVFJxCq4qDeqXdD96xmTF33 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fBcf8Osiw2nBcOoaflNwf33OS3CeGG8Vw"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Niels ten Oever , "hrpc@irtf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] stepping down as hrpc co-chair (by the end of the year) References: <092fe913-9e71-d454-3e8c-9b1cfde47508@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <092fe913-9e71-d454-3e8c-9b1cfde47508@article19.org> --fBcf8Osiw2nBcOoaflNwf33OS3CeGG8Vw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Niels, Thanks for all your work getting the RG up and running! I hope you do remain active as a document author (and that seems to be the case for now anyway:-), Cheers, S On 23/10/17 09:46, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Dear all, >=20 > I expect to step down towards the end of the year as hrpc co-chair. >=20 > I'll be stepping down as Head of Digital at ARTICLE19 so will have less= > time to devote for coordination and organization, but I hope to remain > active in the RG as an author. >=20 > It is probably a good idea to have a bit deeper separation between the > role of active author and the role of co-chair. >=20 > If you're interested in the role of co-chair of hrpc, please let Alliso= n > (IRTF chair), Avri (co-chair) or me know! >=20 > Please let me know if you have any questions regarding the work. >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --fBcf8Osiw2nBcOoaflNwf33OS3CeGG8Vw-- --Wu4bCXRDd7GVFJxCq4qDeqXdD96xmTF33 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7a/fAAoJEC88hzaAX42ih+8H/02BHN3pJiGlgBowvCOQMq1A ME7mEhLItT6R545tJJhLLTA2EgM6dlWUpt/u2vnnPIoUcdJ/i84zxfnyNtJbRR9t 4hF9JiIYpm91AP9JBSfhv/xSg8SrJEEkZnh/9VECeIIRvi1jtm8cBwaa6ugDiJ89 3O0j1wyI12thjuVht40UoqzxqEVmwL70pzfM9S2JtI09T0SGvwz2w/SdfwMtreVC SmFXrjj2uFu1Mu+Wn+k9i/XGneXgmAMU4gfjThylVkj28Zf7SWuqqUX6sNsub5EX ashhZvaZLxbp1R06S7tPI945xtu4oCm4TqEyySCyMNcfa0ciyu9czsyjP52/MQ0= =pxWF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Wu4bCXRDd7GVFJxCq4qDeqXdD96xmTF33-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 07:21:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A60F138F21 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WLSduIZWyUtD for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18BBD1389A0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e6dbW-0006ya-52 for hrpc@irtf.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:21:22 +0200 To: hrpc@irtf.org References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:21:17 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0WsWDJUi6ov2KjEOcLnfiw9PDptaVMClQ" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 10fb2eeb1e6a32429c7ce102d6ec6cdf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:21:29 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --0WsWDJUi6ov2KjEOcLnfiw9PDptaVMClQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Vdjas8gtVFTMmC0JChiDDD9O0b4N3kKbv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> --Vdjas8gtVFTMmC0JChiDDD9O0b4N3kKbv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stephen, On 10/22/2017 09:22 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >=20 > Hiya, >=20 > I had a read of this. I don't think it's in a state where > the RG ought adopt it. I'm not even sure it's worthwhile > to keep working on it, as is but there may be a reworking > of this that'd be good. >=20 > My main comment is: Who is this for? >=20 The reasoning for writing this was following up on your request here: https://youtu.be/4Cn0lcvWKFA as to show that also if one includes human rights considerations, spam and DDoS are still attacks. Best, Niels > The only audience I can envisage are folks (e.g. activists) > who'd otherwise maybe think that DDoS/spam are legitimate > vehicles for protest. If that is the target audience then > it ought be written for them. It currently is not and would > need a major re-write for that audience. >=20 > I could maybe see value in an RFC that did that. >=20 > Put another way, I don't think this text is convincing in > deriving it's correct conclusion, which seems to be what > it's attempting but failing to do now. I don't think an > RFC that attempts to derive a proof that DDoS-is-bad > would be a useful RFC. It might be a fine thing for some > other publication venue, who knows. >=20 > So I'd say either drop the idea of documenting this, (*) or, > if the above target audience is agreed, then do the major > re-write to set out the conclusion (incl. in the abstract) > and then explain why that is correct in terms the target > audience would understand. >=20 > S. >=20 > (*) It's ok to not pursue every idea, maybe this is one > such, not sure. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --Vdjas8gtVFTMmC0JChiDDD9O0b4N3kKbv-- --0WsWDJUi6ov2KjEOcLnfiw9PDptaVMClQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnt+t0ACgkQDtg/OkaK yLPZRQ//TZwLb0uCbFxmVa0E3TbYYqRnZQ0io52VxyBiggANMUB/TIsnMbBFX1IF e/QU/GFDEyiqincdJ9BVzvOQQRW/VAFMh2TfpXdav0Dne74wH+ImvVPG+oufcko8 6AB6ogyzUTmWjXtlib7Fr4Aq3jIoSgaDLYA0nReOmzLT0NPdAE33O5ExJCsHUyDl Qot/mAvcrQq+WAwl9oKMWzXU/rK+ErFMYE9S+PmOc72RYKJXe+E6ov9p2SYIKUIX Lwy+uOS1yO7DTvtmxiu8fINtSUvu1rtLJ8AfQRRellC08/FwC05Mn/AqCRKvLURr PV/p56X4sk3zdyFGj1j9N7RRYuPW8X/WnDb2X9y51WqR/G7GcGUSpTbA8pU4oPrC mDJZKMfAfIHzanmBgBZiKs6ANr0enzF84o9y084qyQpIgGw05qYcSPL7xgGpnZPD GwqZG0/vdM4D1t+grNrn4rgfuJ+Db0vhwm0HV/gnpv0NgogV8MUDOJyMc5b9Y2f9 RCSc4xObhwNhR+NakL6nD8SECUtytIPE5SWuipujI53ngyOaVSXG3dxeApzyb8IB 3HBG5p+QCMO9G4Ic2lXXT85UQ4VHYGVy4kmUFvRNxDaZBU7PEhG4ghTREYnmNnHm EMCZeOsZgXspRbHeKkJ747sR1eOyGSPAhq4fdqGppSjGQNuHx24= =95Yf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0WsWDJUi6ov2KjEOcLnfiw9PDptaVMClQ-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 07:32:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646E813EF48 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DHciHkaO_Lf3 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00DFB1389A0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 07:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8313BE53; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:32:51 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrg1Qr3Hbfo9; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:32:50 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9039BE58; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:32:49 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508769170; bh=Ks4ewVrSevnl4DgAIDSmC/HVlRd/LeRUtYdFXEB6DRw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=kBZugop8xjbXhAn3l7w1VK6YfDbPbDblw/6l7iYXF+qIzoFxdYHcPwFyGnSSSi9j5 GIodVjYQvgwOCbni07PNcFRQLb+3CIa0yzw8OhWsefu3ZOeTb1WzkuAQmNLKWNSKhU FdQ2XZN/xipuEwp0CcHYssGFI8Sejcef5ZzkeF8c= To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:32:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="n7Qr7tUvivMigMIfvqI0SfHbxxruV6Kf3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:32:57 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --n7Qr7tUvivMigMIfvqI0SfHbxxruV6Kf3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="aF0977QHrf8Ffw2jI9ltWKW4vhpR1PVIL"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --aF0977QHrf8Ffw2jI9ltWKW4vhpR1PVIL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 23/10/17 15:21, Niels ten Oever wrote: > Hi Stephen, >=20 >=20 > On 10/22/2017 09:22 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> Hiya, >> >> I had a read of this. I don't think it's in a state where >> the RG ought adopt it. I'm not even sure it's worthwhile >> to keep working on it, as is but there may be a reworking >> of this that'd be good. >> >> My main comment is: Who is this for? >> >=20 > The reasoning for writing this was following up on your request here: >=20 > https://youtu.be/4Cn0lcvWKFA >=20 I didn't watch all 90 mins again:-) > as to show that also if one includes human rights considerations, spam > and DDoS are still attacks. So maybe I wasn't clear at the mic but what I think could be useful is a document that tries to explain that DDoS and spam are bad, written for folks who might otherwise be liable to assume there are valid uses of DDoS and spam (e.g. for protest). The current document seems to set out to prove the propositions that DDoS and spam are bad, but doesn't really try to explain the badness, in ways that that readership might understand. (And I'm not sure if the proof is there now, nor if it's even necessary, but that's another day's work.) Hence my comment that the readership for this is maybe the critical thing that'll distinguish whether or not it's worth working on this to make it an HRPC RFC. I don't see value in an RFC that aims to convince IETF participants that DDoS or spam are bad. They already know that, so there's no need. Cheers, S. PS: I *think* that's what I meant to say at the mic in Prague too, apologies if I was confused or confusing:-) >=20 > Best, >=20 > Niels >=20 >> The only audience I can envisage are folks (e.g. activists) >> who'd otherwise maybe think that DDoS/spam are legitimate >> vehicles for protest. If that is the target audience then >> it ought be written for them. It currently is not and would >> need a major re-write for that audience. >> >> I could maybe see value in an RFC that did that. >> >> Put another way, I don't think this text is convincing in >> deriving it's correct conclusion, which seems to be what >> it's attempting but failing to do now. I don't think an >> RFC that attempts to derive a proof that DDoS-is-bad >> would be a useful RFC. It might be a fine thing for some >> other publication venue, who knows. >> >> So I'd say either drop the idea of documenting this, (*) or, >> if the above target audience is agreed, then do the major >> re-write to set out the conclusion (incl. in the abstract) >> and then explain why that is correct in terms the target >> audience would understand. >> >> S. >> >> (*) It's ok to not pursue every idea, maybe this is one >> such, not sure. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --aF0977QHrf8Ffw2jI9ltWKW4vhpR1PVIL-- --n7Qr7tUvivMigMIfvqI0SfHbxxruV6Kf3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7f2RAAoJEC88hzaAX42i+cEH/1gFlqHMgBXzO7omKx/9FQl7 XtSqg+YCAu6j6vkG+VnkrZOI2CppXIIB/CA3xFWCQAbI0GafE3Q6/c5amG1+ivU9 3PPsoolwQ4EbkIoBVCXLNyBbo6IPjhen2ua9IA1FEcJ5iwiYUt7w7GideQ1MwaYH A0x9w/sFBt9WUpPUFrEUaj3Q3x+Yrtc1+n2+VHLFwzU8ZZuO0ju8P4DoXZ6Qeagc 9CRAfebvGEwyRA2ADZXxJzdOdzXDg9LW1z/BKn0M54vNvUnI1FAcUcbS50LT/VV/ Ax2eRrIAtm9FTyft3NjbWB31wNuO+B9Jn/+VWOqXdJgJpliHNRrT6YeZ1laLK6k= =xvyn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --n7Qr7tUvivMigMIfvqI0SfHbxxruV6Kf3-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 08:04:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730581391C3 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:03:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NjDXXsMWvTK0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 765B01389A0 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e6eGf-0002Px-Nb; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:03:54 +0200 To: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> From: Niels ten Oever Message-ID: <5d54b7d6-8471-8b5d-424a-ba3d74236666@article19.org> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:03:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aKc9jCPQH3aDgSW5ClEHwvLko549fCP5B" X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: bb59c828db3c430e2c178cb0ddebf9e4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:03:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --aKc9jCPQH3aDgSW5ClEHwvLko549fCP5B Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="um3PqQEk0oN0D6OQCLRRLnentpfSaocHo"; protected-headers="v1" From: Niels ten Oever To: Stephen Farrell , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <5d54b7d6-8471-8b5d-424a-ba3d74236666@article19.org> Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> --um3PqQEk0oN0D6OQCLRRLnentpfSaocHo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/23/2017 04:32 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >> >> https://youtu.be/4Cn0lcvWKFA >> >=20 > I didn't watch all 90 mins again:-) >=20 I did :) wanted to send you the link with the right timecode: https://youtu.be/4Cn0lcvWKFA?t=3D1h16m11s >> as to show that also if one includes human rights considerations, spam= >> and DDoS are still attacks. >=20 > So maybe I wasn't clear at the mic but what I > think could be useful is a document that tries > to explain that DDoS and spam are bad, written > for folks who might otherwise be liable to > assume there are valid uses of DDoS and spam > (e.g. for protest). >=20 > The current document seems to set out to prove > the propositions that DDoS and spam are bad, but > doesn't really try to explain the badness, in ways > that that readership might understand. (And I'm > not sure if the proof is there now, nor if it's > even necessary, but that's another day's work.) >=20 I think I get this, so you don't think it is relevant for the IETF or protocol developers to hear that also from the angle of human rights considerations spam and DDoS are wrong because they already think its wro= ng? AFAIK it is part of science to test assumptions also if you validate them, right? I thought it might be killing two birds with one stone: 1. Improve understanding of human rights considerations 2. Ensure that there is no misunderstanding on DDoS But that might indeed be two audiences. I am not too convinced that many activists read RFCs though. Cheers, Niels > Hence my comment that the readership for this is > maybe the critical thing that'll distinguish > whether or not it's worth working on this to make > it an HRPC RFC. >=20 > I don't see value in an RFC that aims to convince > IETF participants that DDoS or spam are bad. They > already know that, so there's no need. >=20 > Cheers, > S. >=20 > PS: I *think* that's what I meant to say at the > mic in Prague too, apologies if I was confused or > confusing:-) >=20 >=20 >> >> Best, >> >> Niels >> >>> The only audience I can envisage are folks (e.g. activists) >>> who'd otherwise maybe think that DDoS/spam are legitimate >>> vehicles for protest. If that is the target audience then >>> it ought be written for them. It currently is not and would >>> need a major re-write for that audience. >>> >>> I could maybe see value in an RFC that did that. >>> >>> Put another way, I don't think this text is convincing in >>> deriving it's correct conclusion, which seems to be what >>> it's attempting but failing to do now. I don't think an >>> RFC that attempts to derive a proof that DDoS-is-bad >>> would be a useful RFC. It might be a fine thing for some >>> other publication venue, who knows. >>> >>> So I'd say either drop the idea of documenting this, (*) or, >>> if the above target audience is agreed, then do the major >>> re-write to set out the conclusion (incl. in the abstract) >>> and then explain why that is correct in terms the target >>> audience would understand. >>> >>> S. >>> >>> (*) It's ok to not pursue every idea, maybe this is one >>> such, not sure. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> hrpc mailing list >> hrpc@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >> >=20 --um3PqQEk0oN0D6OQCLRRLnentpfSaocHo-- --aKc9jCPQH3aDgSW5ClEHwvLko549fCP5B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnuBNgACgkQDtg/OkaK yLNT4RAAk1bw4YLUgHYGHtkQTPLSY0uTbZfaZ7vQs98Xp/z+c3KtvdXPzHpUiwhU PrGNxy7jWT2MuK8Kk4NMIRpzs4svbYZ25/3skbOCO4R9Aw+Gnt071TFn20lP2DWV 3PJ/ck2+2obwhdfzI1IA2WcvbR64ToqupX0BdWSIMEsc9NX26uP4AZzfKNFNezxq Al2+2KhMphv4Otbsauy66NtYFk3Jbo52FvxkiyHSQ+zAJABck6Dk9Mgy9+CaJ/f5 6AmDCMmruVSRfaROhdp/hC224Eh0Y7u6H1LWrSRSpxqr2enw3L+BUJd4R0Am5Voy bCw7I62KEvtIFpeDpzHVfqeOKDuFnp5jSLLFL3oxAYW9LoCC8fSuGIfUxh5RrqXB 1TNNVODAF6CESa8kGKERxsRcj2fyboB0bZo5TPIpQHmDbv8brevRLDSRmVKTUjjB PObaORk3RpVHZc1HuKTh45ynwb/HQCkh6ltN+92lmLd3xQiwGSAy07Fb4h8ZIhOT XXw8J5ZVq+RMhfl0xEuAKPuglqk2ywEbBRsiI+MkemGXg0EwScbAwAXolpsPSiHn dqmHYexHLxilT0/MAwFgjR2q8unrYNuJdIe2ak2hqALazHFmRH2H/1BvAvk/8dDt vc2K9kGgi63978PUi6bjDIl1ivil1hw4TqxvDb2roYZxQQIYx7A= =eyI0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aKc9jCPQH3aDgSW5ClEHwvLko549fCP5B-- From nobody Mon Oct 23 08:10:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E05B138F83 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tg7zCxaKJK-B for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39D2313F3C7 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1702FBE55; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:10:41 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HE7uQOPJSSKh; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:10:38 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 848BFBE56; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:10:37 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1508771437; bh=p29+koT3vuIZvKqc9cuRhv2J9gCq9WTXjqcFGcxExhQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=P8+orfZTFqafOaVIIuA+7YcESniOlgifO6blMJIwuONvqqBqCzQZJYyLjBquoWozJ umTmMZN/+JPmCPYb1nzgrQg9Xi8nIQ6ugVepYCqoE7KfSG8NbsfTu9KfOu40T0V6Bg CuxjvQJECegKblKy+KEMow2hgnniRuYISuhyNmzE= To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> <5d54b7d6-8471-8b5d-424a-ba3d74236666@article19.org> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <729ab775-aa18-f5c1-1668-236c8afd4e88@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:10:36 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5d54b7d6-8471-8b5d-424a-ba3d74236666@article19.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TCnhnXo5sraaBW8Roi7WVKidaGlEc47s8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:10:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TCnhnXo5sraaBW8Roi7WVKidaGlEc47s8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="J9ie0HvV8Ph1vB9N0uBT96ue1EHEKcWDi"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Niels ten Oever , hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <729ab775-aa18-f5c1-1668-236c8afd4e88@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [hrpc] draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 References: <2635839f-a714-05b2-6ccf-f1f26ab1062f@cs.tcd.ie> <14adc5e6-298e-5249-a9be-bb3ad62ed621@cs.tcd.ie> <5d54b7d6-8471-8b5d-424a-ba3d74236666@article19.org> In-Reply-To: <5d54b7d6-8471-8b5d-424a-ba3d74236666@article19.org> --J9ie0HvV8Ph1vB9N0uBT96ue1EHEKcWDi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 23/10/17 16:03, Niels ten Oever wrote: >=20 > On 10/23/2017 04:32 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>> >>> https://youtu.be/4Cn0lcvWKFA >>> >> >> I didn't watch all 90 mins again:-) >> > I did :) wanted to send you the link with the right timecode: >=20 > https://youtu.be/4Cn0lcvWKFA?t=3D1h16m11s Thanks. And phew - I've not contradicted myself (this time:-). >=20 >>> as to show that also if one includes human rights considerations, spa= m >>> and DDoS are still attacks. >> >> So maybe I wasn't clear at the mic but what I >> think could be useful is a document that tries >> to explain that DDoS and spam are bad, written >> for folks who might otherwise be liable to >> assume there are valid uses of DDoS and spam >> (e.g. for protest). >> >> The current document seems to set out to prove >> the propositions that DDoS and spam are bad, but >> doesn't really try to explain the badness, in ways >> that that readership might understand. (And I'm >> not sure if the proof is there now, nor if it's >> even necessary, but that's another day's work.) >> >=20 > I think I get this, so you don't think it is relevant for the IETF or > protocol developers to hear that also from the angle of human rights > considerations spam and DDoS are wrong because they already think its w= rong? >=20 It may be relevant. But I don't think it's worth the effort, no. > AFAIK it is part of science to test assumptions also if you validate > them, right? >=20 Sure. But for example, a proof by induction might be really useless for explaining things. > I thought it might be killing two birds with one stone: >=20 > 1. Improve understanding of human rights considerations > 2. Ensure that there is no misunderstanding on DDoS >=20 > But that might indeed be two audiences. I am not too convinced that man= y > activists read RFCs though. That last is a fair point. I'd defer to others as to that. (And if the conclusion is that it'd not be read, then I'm fine for it not to be written:-) OTOH, we did have that debate as part of the development of what'll soon be rfc8280. Cheers, S. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Niels >=20 >=20 >> Hence my comment that the readership for this is >> maybe the critical thing that'll distinguish >> whether or not it's worth working on this to make >> it an HRPC RFC. >> >> I don't see value in an RFC that aims to convince >> IETF participants that DDoS or spam are bad. They >> already know that, so there's no need. >> >> Cheers, >> S. >> >> PS: I *think* that's what I meant to say at the >> mic in Prague too, apologies if I was confused or >> confusing:-) >> >> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Niels >>> >>>> The only audience I can envisage are folks (e.g. activists) >>>> who'd otherwise maybe think that DDoS/spam are legitimate >>>> vehicles for protest. If that is the target audience then >>>> it ought be written for them. It currently is not and would >>>> need a major re-write for that audience. >>>> >>>> I could maybe see value in an RFC that did that. >>>> >>>> Put another way, I don't think this text is convincing in >>>> deriving it's correct conclusion, which seems to be what >>>> it's attempting but failing to do now. I don't think an >>>> RFC that attempts to derive a proof that DDoS-is-bad >>>> would be a useful RFC. It might be a fine thing for some >>>> other publication venue, who knows. >>>> >>>> So I'd say either drop the idea of documenting this, (*) or, >>>> if the above target audience is agreed, then do the major >>>> re-write to set out the conclusion (incl. in the abstract) >>>> and then explain why that is correct in terms the target >>>> audience would understand. >>>> >>>> S. >>>> >>>> (*) It's ok to not pursue every idea, maybe this is one >>>> such, not sure. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> hrpc mailing list >>>> hrpc@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> hrpc mailing list >>> hrpc@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >>> >> >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc >=20 --J9ie0HvV8Ph1vB9N0uBT96ue1EHEKcWDi-- --TCnhnXo5sraaBW8Roi7WVKidaGlEc47s8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ7gZsAAoJEC88hzaAX42ipgwIALF44yfidE+FUE6eqb5cLDW8 KsKr8YEsH0gOyX8KIXMx+c9LCBNvkgvPFZ5lWVgaLSZcILNl7aFmRa7LATlaX6wN h8lofiv+OD9n/xPfbM/E0bgmbpyN1Aj+UrgneGqvHcbczLa03kWy8W1n2LT8lihN UFwKcswoCDpaMRpfX7YTKSwIwC27YICLa2zj80D2ZOgDaBIbTh6YPoiYdwF679G7 53J4GY2UbPK0NNR0Ipi6+OfIPn9MkFwVmHiB1bc3Pl6gsnzqYSnxJju7NiJ6gDWp /bCFi56ZhihIpTMBDmxPLGOSe/tzS0LaAt7Ss2p2kaX+NBnCjSEF/txSnoBYIa4= =ilP3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TCnhnXo5sraaBW8Roi7WVKidaGlEc47s8-- From nobody Tue Oct 24 01:45:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7ADB13E1DA for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5EtXTVxHASld for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50F2113DE55 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e6uq8-0008DC-3o for hrpc@irtf.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:45:36 +0200 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 10:45:34 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: hrpc@irtf.org Message-ID: <20171024084534.czmvgmsnprirexch@mir> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pn754wa346isosgu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: f4db13d1ab50da585241c80c5e12767b Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Proposed Agenda IETF100 X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 08:45:40 -0000 --pn754wa346isosgu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Preparing for our session in Singapore I put together an initial agenda. Qu= ite a lot of document to discuss as well as the much anticipated talk by Sa= ndra Braman. Looking forward to your suggestions and comments.=20 Human Rights Protocols Considerations (hrpc) research group sessions at #IE= TF100, 9:30, November 17 2017 - Beginning (5 min) Jabber scribe, note takers Agenda Bashing Notewell Introduction - Status of research group & documents - Context of research - Presentation + Q&A - Sandra Braman - (45 mins) - Discussion of draft-tenoever-hrpc-association-02 (10 mins) - Discussion of draft-tenoever-hrpc-political-02 (10 mins) - Discussion of draft-tenoever-hrpc-unrequested-00 (5 mins) - Discussion of draft-nottingham-for-the-users-06 (10 mins) - Errata to HTTP status code 451 & Implementation Report & HR consideration= s (10 mins) - Update on the status of RFC8280 (2 mins) - Discussion on way forward (draft-hrpc-expression/&-other-rights) (10 mins) - Report back on Public Interest Hackathon (5 mins) - Open discussion other drafts, papers, ideas - AOB Best, Niels --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --pn754wa346isosgu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:04:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: shivankaul.1993@gmail.com Received: by 10.202.244.145 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <150887513692.25302.7828653819447238362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <150887513692.25302.7828653819447238362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Shivan Kaul Sahib Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 16:03:58 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mYVcIyuNNWbUxiOG3aJWgdnWt9s Message-ID: To: hrpc@irtf.org Cc: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1c1bf2f01f65055c507208" Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:04:42 -0000 --94eb2c1c1bf2f01f65055c507208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, Submitted the draft for adding new protocol elements to 451. I added a couple of TBDs towards the end so as to get more feedback on how to better define the new protocol elements we're suggesting. Thanks, Shivan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:58 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt To: Shivan Kaul Sahib A new version of I-D, draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Shivan Kaul Sahib and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-451-new-protocol-elements Revision: 00 Title: New protocol elements for HTTP Status Code 451 Document date: 2017-10-24 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 4 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-451-new-protocol- elements-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-451-new-protocol-ele ments/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-451-new-protocol-elements -00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-451-new-protoco l-elements-00 Abstract: This draft recommends protocol updates to Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) status code 451 [RFC7725] based on an examination of how the new status code is being used by parties involved in denial of Internet resources because of legal demands. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --94eb2c1c1bf2f01f65055c507208 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

<= /div>
Submitted the draft for adding new protocol elemen= ts to 451. I added a couple of TBDs towards the end so as to get more feedb= ack on how to better define the new protocol elements we're suggesting.=

Thanks,
Shivan


---------- Forwarded message --------= --
From: <internet-drafts@iet= f.org>
Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:58 PM
Subject: New = Version Notification for draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt
To:= Shivan Kaul Sahib <shivankaulsahib@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Shivan Kaul Sahib and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-451-new-protocol-elemen= ts
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 New protocol elements for HTTP Sta= tus Code 451
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-10-24
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-451-ne= w-protocol-elements-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-451-new-protocol-ele= ments/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00<= br> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This draft recommends protocol updates to Hypertext Transfer P= rotocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(HTTP) status code 451 [RFC7725] based on an examination of ho= w the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0new status code is being used by parties involved in denial of=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet resources because of legal demands.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--94eb2c1c1bf2f01f65055c507208-- From nobody Wed Oct 25 07:58:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A16513F3C0 for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EHehI-KODTsi for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smarthost1.greenhost.nl (smarthost1.greenhost.nl [195.190.28.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 030CF13F3AC for ; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 07:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.greenhost.nl ([213.108.104.138]) by smarthost1.greenhost.nl with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e7N7x-00036x-Qv; Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:57:54 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:57:53 +0200 From: Niels ten Oever To: Shivan Kaul Sahib Cc: hrpc@irtf.org, Mark Nottingham Message-ID: <20171025145753.omsmgzj3jwi2paja@mir> References: <150887513692.25302.7828653819447238362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5pg7bxgl3vus4jv5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170609 (1.8.3) X-Virus-Scanned: by clamav at smarthost1.samage.net X-Scan-Signature: 049f1f45ba4289533fd3e2bb72fd36da Archived-At: Subject: Re: [hrpc] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:57:59 -0000 --5pg7bxgl3vus4jv5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Shivan, The Register also saw your draft and the implementation report: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/25/ietf_mulls_adding_geoblock_info_to= _error_code_451/?mt=3D1508943343567 Best, Niels On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 04:03:58PM -0400, Shivan Kaul Sahib wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > Submitted the draft for adding new protocol elements to 451. I added a > couple of TBDs towards the end so as to get more feedback on how to better > define the new protocol elements we're suggesting. >=20 > Thanks, > Shivan >=20 >=20 > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:58 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.= txt > To: Shivan Kaul Sahib >=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-451-new-protocol-elements-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Shivan Kaul Sahib and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-451-new-protocol-elements > Revision: 00 > Title: New protocol elements for HTTP Status Code 451 > Document date: 2017-10-24 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 4 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-451-new-protoc= ol- > elements-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-451-new-protocol-e= le > ments/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-451-new-protocol-elemen= ts > -00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-451-new-proto= co > l-elements-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This draft recommends protocol updates to Hypertext Transfer Protocol > (HTTP) status code 451 [RFC7725] based on an examination of how the > new status code is being used by parties involved in denial of > Internet resources because of legal demands. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat > _______________________________________________ > hrpc mailing list > hrpc@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 2458 0B70 5C4A FD8A 9488 =20 643A 0ED8 3F3A 468A C8B3 --5pg7bxgl3vus4jv5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEEJFgLcFxK/YqUiGQ6Dtg/OkaKyLMFAlnwpnAACgkQDtg/OkaK yLMTTw/+LIP/qxM1aJugeW4BFBJdZb3k5tApODREQ2Uf3t3gnevQtd2IvFVFC/aN LZr44behPZmHZDt5WFU3XgpER6Qt3dL1DdQsB79u/iEm84n4EH11AxcM1qJ8Ehp/ KzGX92ABZv0OzNjMDrlMK3QKQI87wrdiRo5u6OOfZkWNcxehXpImdU4dVxK2/rW8 Dw7KGNmWtFcBJqhYkoynq8I/LnwrLjKXl36lgcgD7waFpk5EoLZde39sJF7K2TSc TLllkImh9wV9c2oFNIYOl4zLi2NCfVo1/pR5c+z5603FbEpXeZ0qKBer8kcHUpwo XM2ePVrazEczE9/85MqiSlAJazBsGWIcuxCcngspxGgkXwYg+DdYUXQp1RJQWgLv miEnP8aLCOUkryJh/lJAZi73zSe7MLRPdKOidz1GTILsIDUc2j3rTvi/tjWcsHYy elQGJ+7GvsDFoGwAX5n8Khn44VMjpVkY9cba/GnBBQFyxdHYajA7rWx5mLbGJn85 ctEa8gByZRlg4NCD3kvj6wL+ydzRy5B8EGJoswiTlHrZEihO7/2sYX1f/AsQQOAj j5XEyR1DkETQ7y8hB2GkNGM1m5ZkWqVrvVNKk4s616PH6QvQ6ixiP/l5ybkQK8Vj inB4c9pTepXrGp4g+0RxqJgF9qnZksT60WYXVMTQW816VZH1iJ8= =1lqY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5pg7bxgl3vus4jv5-- From nobody Tue Oct 31 21:55:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: hrpc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D40E13FB7A; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:55:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WniU5FdnHUfV; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EBED13FB7D; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id BE000B81745; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:54:27 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org, irtf-announce@irtf.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:ams_util_lib.php From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, drafts-update-ref@iana.org, hrpc@irtf.org Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20171101045427.BE000B81745@rfc-editor.org> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [hrpc] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8280_on_Research_into_Human_Rights_Protocol_?= =?utf-8?q?Considerations?= X-BeenThere: hrpc@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "niels@article19.org" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 04:55:48 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8280 Title: Research into Human Rights Protocol Considerations Author: N. ten Oever, C. Cath Status: Informational Stream: IRTF Date: October 2017 Mailbox: mail@nielstenoever.net, corinnecath@gmail.com Pages: 81 Characters: 199050 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-irtf-hrpc-research-14.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8280 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8280 This document aims to propose guidelines for human rights considerations, similar to the work done on the guidelines for privacy considerations (RFC 6973). The other parts of this document explain the background of the guidelines and how they were developed. This document is the first milestone in a longer-term research effort. It has been reviewed by the Human Rights Protocol Considerations (HRPC) Research Group and also by individuals from outside the research group. This document is a product of the Human Rights Protocol Considerations of the IRTF. INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce, rfc-dist and IRTF-Announce lists.To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/irtf-announce For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC