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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] cookie-alone: add path-match restriction. (3f58813)
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This patch broke the Travis build. `make cookie-alone` succeeds locally, and nothing in the diff jumps out at me as being particularly confusing for the various scripts. Looking into it.

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<p>This patch broke the Travis build. <code>make cookie-alone</code> succ=
eeds locally, and nothing in the diff jumps out at me as being particular=
ly confusing for the various scripts. Looking into it.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] remove RFC 2616 dependencies (#115)
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Fixed in draft 02.

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<p>Fixed in draft 02.</p>

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Closed #115.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/115" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/115" data-id="115667834" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#115</a>.</p>

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Fixed in draft 02.

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<p>Fixed in draft 02.</p>

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...for new header fields?

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<p>...for new header fields?</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Advice for new parameters / headers (#227)
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I disagree with the proposed change; in particular for header fields that already use this syntax.

We could make a recommendation for new header fields, but what you propose is yet another new format, so I just do not see the benefit over that we have right now.

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<p>I disagree with the proposed change; in particular for header fields t=
hat already use this syntax.</p>

<p>We could make a recommendation for new header fields, but what you pro=
pose is yet another new format, so I just do not see the benefit over tha=
t we have right now.</p>

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We could give an example, e.g., percent-encoding over utf-8 (which is already specified elsewhere).

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<p>We could give an example, e.g., percent-encoding over utf-8 (which is already specified elsewhere).</p>

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A format that has a single mode *and* supports non-ASCII (over HTTP/1.1) will need an escape character (such as %). This is a new format (if we don't count the Slug header field in atompub). It also means that senders always will have to escape (so that "%" isn't ambiguous).

Yes, we can specify that somewhere, but until we do so we can't recommend something like that. At the end of the day it's not clear to me at all whether yet another format improves the situation.

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<p>A format that has a single mode <em>and</em> supports non-ASCII (over =
HTTP/1.1) will need an escape character (such as %). This is a new format=
 (if we don't count the Slug header field in atompub). It also means that=
 senders always will have to escape (so that "%" isn't ambiguous).</p>

<p>Yes, we can specify that somewhere, but until we do so we can't recomm=
end something like that. At the end of the day it's not clear to me at al=
l whether yet another format improves the situation.</p>

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format (if we don't count the Slug header field in atompub). It also mean=
s that senders always will have to escape (so that \"%\" isn't ambiguous)=
.\r\n\r\nYes, we can specify that somewhere, but until we do so we can't =
recommend something like that. At the end of the day it's not clear to me=
 at all whether yet another format improves the situation."}],"action":{"=
name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issue=
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> If I had to deal with that scenario, I'd probably just focus more on HSTS instead to avoid those cookie related headaches.

Doesn't that seem like a good outcome?

> Mike, you said yourself that you feel like path-level distinctions in cookies was a historical mistake,

The fact that I consider path-level distinctions for cookies to be a mistake (and I do) doesn't mean that I can pretend they don't exist. I'm doing my best to work within the constraints they create to incrementally raise the platform's baseline. *shrug*

> so wouldn't opt-in mechanisms (HSTS, Cookie-Attributes, Suborigins, etc) be better long-term than allowing the cookie path-match algorithm to further dictate how servers organize content?

Yes. When we can create opt-in mechanisms that allow sites to lock themselves down further than we can lock down the platform at large, we should.

However, relying strictly upon those mechanisms is unlikely to produce actual change in the ecosystem. For instance, despite fairly broad outreach and understanding, something like ~4% of the cookies Chrome users set in the last month have the `Secure` attribute. ~7% have `HttpOnly`. I think it's pretty clear that, in an ideal world, those numbers would be an order of magnitude higher.

It seems unlikely than an opt-in approach would buy us much in terms of protection, especially when the opt-in is fairly complicated, as `Cookie-Attributes` would be.

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<blockquote>
<p>If I had to deal with that scenario, I'd probably just focus more on H=
STS instead to avoid those cookie related headaches.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Doesn't that seem like a good outcome?</p>

<blockquote>
<p>Mike, you said yourself that you feel like path-level distinctions in =
cookies was a historical mistake,</p>
</blockquote>

<p>The fact that I consider path-level distinctions for cookies to be a m=
istake (and I do) doesn't mean that I can pretend they don't exist. I'm d=
oing my best to work within the constraints they create to incrementally =
raise the platform's baseline. <em>shrug</em></p>

<blockquote>
<p>so wouldn't opt-in mechanisms (HSTS, Cookie-Attributes, Suborigins, et=
c) be better long-term than allowing the cookie path-match algorithm to f=
urther dictate how servers organize content?</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Yes. When we can create opt-in mechanisms that allow sites to lock the=
mselves down further than we can lock down the platform at large, we shou=
ld.</p>

<p>However, relying strictly upon those mechanisms is unlikely to produce=
 actual change in the ecosystem. For instance, despite fairly broad outre=
ach and understanding, something like ~4% of the cookies Chrome users set=
 in the last month have the <code>Secure</code> attribute. ~7% have <code=
>HttpOnly</code>. I think it's pretty clear that, in an ideal world, thos=
e numbers would be an order of magnitude higher.</p>

<p>It seems unlikely than an opt-in approach would buy us much in terms o=
f protection, especially when the opt-in is fairly complicated, as <code>=
Cookie-Attributes</code> would be.</p>

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 just focus more on HSTS instead to avoid those cookie related headaches.=
\r\n\r\nDoesn't that seem like a good outcome?\r\n\r\n\u003e Mike, you sa=
id yourself that you feel like path-level distinctions in cookies was a h=
istorical mistake,\r\n\r\nThe fact that I consider path-level distinction=
s for cookies to be a mistake (and I do) doesn't mean that I can pretend =
they don't exist. I'm doing my best to work within the constraints they c=
reate to incrementally raise the platform's baseline. *shrug*\r\n\r\n\u00=
3e so wouldn't opt-in mechanisms (HSTS, Cookie-Attributes, Suborigins, et=
c) be better long-term than allowing the cookie path-match algorithm to f=
urther dictate how servers organize content?\r\n\r\nYes. When we can crea=
te opt-in mechanisms that allow sites to lock themselves down further tha=
n we can lock down the platform at large, we should.\r\n\r\nHowever, rely=
ing strictly upon those mechanisms is unlikely to produce actual change i=
n the ecosystem. For instance, despite fairly broad outreach and understa=
nding, something like ~4% of the cookies Chrome users set in the last mon=
th have the `Secure` attribute. ~7% have `HttpOnly`. I think it's pretty =
clear that, in an ideal world, those numbers would be an order of magnitu=
de higher.\r\n\r\nIt seems unlikely than an opt-in approach would buy us =
much in terms of protection, especially when the opt-in is fairly complic=
ated, as `Cookie-Attributes` would be."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","=
url":"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/223#issuecomment-2=
44678287"}}}</script>=

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3] get rid of tls-commit (i.e. the latch to opp sec) as this plays very poorly with alt-svc. The notion of alt-svc has always been that it is a shortcut route (or dns name if your prefer) for the same content as supplied at the default origin. If for any reason you cannot get there, you can always go back to the default origin. All of the machinery around this (validating alternates, etc) can happen transparently and asynchronously in the background until they are ready to be used. A mechanism that requires a characteristic of a route (auth'd TLS) but not the route itself doesn't play well - its far too easy to brick your site for an extended period of time and really ceases to be opportunistic in any meaningful sense. If you're up to managing this, then you're probably up to the fight of running https:// and using HSTS which at least has the benefit of not bringing a whole second technology (alt-svc) into play.

[there is further discussion on list]

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<p>3] get rid of tls-commit (i.e. the latch to opp sec) as this plays very poorly with alt-svc. The notion of alt-svc has always been that it is a shortcut route (or dns name if your prefer) for the same content as supplied at the default origin. If for any reason you cannot get there, you can always go back to the default origin. All of the machinery around this (validating alternates, etc) can happen transparently and asynchronously in the background until they are ready to be used. A mechanism that requires a characteristic of a route (auth'd TLS) but not the route itself doesn't play well - its far too easy to brick your site for an extended period of time and really ceases to be opportunistic in any meaningful sense. If you're up to managing this, then you're probably up to the fight of running https:// and using HSTS which at least has the benefit of not bringing a whole second technology (alt-svc) into play.</p>

<p>[there is further discussion on list]</p>

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With the -01 draft published, and Chrome updated (in https://github.com/dstockwell/chromium/commit/2c857fb16cdef9783ba3caeb586b9a3648114b17), I think it's reasonable to close this out. We can continue the discussion of the other proposed paths forward (`Cookie-Attributes`, etc) on the list.

Thanks again for your feedback, @dvdckl!

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<p>With the -01 draft published, and Chrome updated (in <a href=3D"https:=
//github.com/dstockwell/chromium/commit/2c857fb16cdef9783ba3caeb586b9a364=
8114b17" class=3D"commit-link">dstockwell/chromium@<tt>2c857fb</tt></a>),=
 I think it's reasonable to close this out. We can continue the discussio=
n of the other proposed paths forward (<code>Cookie-Attributes</code>, et=
c) on the list.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your feedback, <a href=3D"https://github.com/dvdckl" =
class=3D"user-mention">@dvdckl</a>!</p>

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Closed #223.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/223" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/223" data-id="170314997" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#223</a>.</p>

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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] type the artwork (#237)
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You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237

-- Commit Summary --

  * type the artwork

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-httpbis-encryption-encoding.md (2)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237.patch
https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237.diff

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<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>type the artwork</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237/files#diff-0">draft-ietf-httpbis-encryption-encoding.md</a>
    (2)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237.patch'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237.diff'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/237.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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Question: is the intent to retain the requirement that the alternative service be on the same host?

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<p>Question: is the intent to retain the requirement that the alternative service be on the same host?</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Digest algorithm (#228)
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xxHash seems good, but see https://github.com/Cyan4973/xxHash/issues/49.

Likewise, the other ones mentioned there are also defined by their source.

I think our options are:

1. Specify one of these as a normative reference and hope we can get that through the process (not likely)
2. Write the spec for one of these (ouch)
3. Wait for someone else to write the spec for one of these (may be some time)
4. Continue using a specified algorithm. 

I'm kind of leaning towards (4), possibly leaving extensibility for other hash algorithms (although, as discussed before, it's not clear how we'd negotiate for that; maybe #22 could help).

Thoughts?

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<p>xxHash seems good, but see <a href=3D"https://github.com/Cyan4973/xxHa=
sh/issues/49" class=3D"issue-link js-issue-link" data-url=3D"https://gith=
ub.com/Cyan4973/xxHash/issues/49" data-id=3D"125789586" data-error-text=3D=
"Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text=3D"Issue title is priva=
te">Cyan4973/xxHash#49</a>.</p>

<p>Likewise, the other ones mentioned there are also defined by their sou=
rce.</p>

<p>I think our options are:</p>

<ol>
<li>Specify one of these as a normative reference and hope we can get tha=
t through the process (not likely)</li>
<li>Write the spec for one of these (ouch)</li>
<li>Wait for someone else to write the spec for one of these (may be some=
 time)</li>
<li>Continue using a specified algorithm. </li>
</ol>

<p>I'm kind of leaning towards (4), possibly leaving extensibility for ot=
her hash algorithms (although, as discussed before, it's not clear how we=
'd negotiate for that; maybe <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-ex=
tensions/issues/22" class=3D"issue-link js-issue-link" data-url=3D"https:=
//github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/22" data-id=3D"40511372" data-=
error-text=3D"Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text=3D"Issue t=
itle is private">#22</a> could help).</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

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I tend to agree with Roy -- this is the difference between "active" and "passive" fingerprinting. See: https://w3c.github.io/fingerprinting-guidance/

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<p>I tend to agree with Roy -- this is the difference between "active" and "passive" fingerprinting. See: <a href="https://w3c.github.io/fingerprinting-guidance/">https://w3c.github.io/fingerprinting-guidance/</a></p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Digest algorithm (#228)
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Don't know what the relevance of #22 is.

I would say that this seems like a good basis for 2: https://github.com/aappleby/smhasher/wiki/MurmurHash3  These are necessarily very simple programs to specify.  A draft shouldn't be hard to write if that's necessary.  Of course, I'm lazy just like you.

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<p>Don't know what the relevance of <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/=
http-extensions/issues/22" class=3D"issue-link js-issue-link" data-url=3D=
"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/22" data-id=3D"40511372=
" data-error-text=3D"Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text=3D"=
Issue title is private">#22</a> is.</p>

<p>I would say that this seems like a good basis for 2: <a href=3D"https:=
//github.com/aappleby/smhasher/wiki/MurmurHash3">https://github.com/aappl=
eby/smhasher/wiki/MurmurHash3</a>  These are necessarily very simple prog=
rams to specify.  A draft shouldn't be hard to write if that's necessary.=
  Of course, I'm lazy just like you.</p>

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Sorry, #229.

I take it you're volunteering, then...

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<p>Sorry, <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/229" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/229" data-id="172245015" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#229</a>.</p>

<p>I take it you're volunteering, then...</p>

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Closed #217 via e6ba12a69a836c6c41e72045b35ee66670f41a8f.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/217" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/217" data-id="168763468" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#217</a> via <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/e6ba12a69a836c6c41e72045b35ee66670f41a8f" class="commit-link"><tt>e6ba12a</tt></a>.</p>

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Closed #218.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/218" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/218" data-id="169273194" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#218</a>.</p>

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"Internet-Draft seeks editor, must like long walks on the beach, sunsets and have poor impulse control."

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<p>"Internet-Draft seeks editor, must like long walks on the beach, sunsets and have poor impulse control."</p>

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Ah, sorry - forgot to look at the pulls.

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<p>Ah, sorry - forgot to look at the pulls.</p>

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@mnot  [_Question: is the intent to retain the requirement that the alternative service be on the same host?_]

no such requirement now that we have auth and .wk


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<p><a href="https://github.com/mnot" class="user-mention">@mnot</a>  [<em>Question: is the intent to retain the requirement that the alternative service be on the same host?</em>]</p>

<p>no such requirement now that we have auth and .wk</p>

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Ah. What you get in an alternate service is "below" what happens at the "origin" layer -- it isn't a new origin. I'll try to clarify, thanks.

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<p>Ah. What you get in an alternate service is "below" what happens at the "origin" layer -- it isn't a new origin. I'll try to clarify, thanks.</p>

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@royfielding @mnot thanks, great feedback. Took a run at incorporating what you've outlined: https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/2ba199856ae926284fe868de7c257009f01fe3b8 - how does that look?

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/royfielding" class=3D"user-mention">@roy=
fielding</a> <a href=3D"https://github.com/mnot" class=3D"user-mention">@=
mnot</a> thanks, great feedback. Took a run at incorporating what you've =
outlined: <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/2ba=
199856ae926284fe868de7c257009f01fe3b8" class=3D"commit-link"><tt>2ba1998<=
/tt></a> - how does that look?</p>

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