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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] remove bogus "!" (#258)
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it leads to kramdown warnings ("overwriting RFC....").
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258

-- Commit Summary --

  * remove bogus "!"

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-httpbis-cache-digest.md (2)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258.patch
https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258.diff

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<p>it leads to kramdown warnings ("overwriting RFC....").</p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>remove bogus &quot;!&quot;</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258/files#diff-0">draft-ietf-httpbis-cache-digest.md</a>
    (2)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258.patch'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258.diff'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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Closed #258.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/258" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/258" data-id="186502995" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#258</a>.</p>

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Somehow I managed to mess up the examples royally.  They were kinda valid, but the rs and id fields didn't match the rest of the example.
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259

-- Commit Summary --

  * Fix examples

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-httpbis-encryption-encoding.md (9)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259.patch
https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259.diff

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<p>Somehow I managed to mess up the examples royally.  They were kinda valid, but the rs and id fields didn't match the rest of the example.</p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>Fix examples</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259/files#diff-0">draft-ietf-httpbis-encryption-encoding.md</a>
    (9)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259.patch'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259.diff'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/259.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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@martinthomson pushed 1 commit.

d53076e  Add intermediate values, expand explanation of examples


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<p><a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/d53076e" class="commit-link">d53076e</a>  Add intermediate values, expand explanation of examples</li>
</ul>


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@martinthomson pushed 1 commit.

4cd62c9  More expansion on the examples


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<p><a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/4cd62c9" class="commit-link">4cd62c9</a>  More expansion on the examples</li>
</ul>


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@reschke, there are two ways to add references in the kramdown variant of markdown.  Adding "x" to the appropriate references block and then using `{{x}}`, OR using `{{?x}}` (informative) or `{{!x}}` (normative).

The warning comes about because the references block already contains "x", or because the reference is being used inconsistently (mixing styles is bad).

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/reschke" class=3D"user-mention">@reschke=
</a>, there are two ways to add references in the kramdown variant of mar=
kdown.  Adding "x" to the appropriate references block and then using <co=
de>{{x}}</code>, OR using <code>{{?x}}</code> (informative) or <code>{{!x=
}}</code> (normative).</p>

<p>The warning comes about because the references block already contains =
"x", or because the reference is being used inconsistently (mixing styles=
 is bad).</p>

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x}}` (normative).\r\n\r\nThe warning comes about because the references b=
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martinthomson commented on this pull request.



> @@ -102,8 +102,14 @@ The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "S
 
 An origin server that supports the resolution of `http` URIs can indicate support for this
 specification by providing an alternative service advertisement {{RFC7838}} for a protocol
-identifier that uses TLS, such as `h2` {{RFC7540}}, or `http/1.1` {{?RFC7301}}.  Note that HTTP/1.1
-requests MUST use the absolute form (see Section 5.3.2 of {{RFC7230}}).
+identifier that uses TLS, such as `h2` {{RFC7540}}, or `http/1.1` {{?RFC7301}}.
+
+Requests for `http` resources using TLS MUST include the scheme in the request.  HTTP/2 requires
+this and provides the `:scheme` pseudo-header field for this purpose.  HTTP/1.1 provides no such
+field, and even prohibits the use of the absolute form for requests that are sent directly to an
+origin server (see Section 5.3.1 of {{RFC7230}}).  This document overrides that requirement for
+requests with the `http` scheme that are sent over TLS; these requests MUST be made using the
+absolute form as though the server were a proxy.
 

OK, I tried :)  So what is our rationale for excluding h1?  That it doesn't carry an explicit scheme?

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<p><b>@martinthomson</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/257">draft-ietf-httpbis-http2-encryption.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -102,8 +102,14 @@ The key words &quot;MUST&quot;, &quot;MUST NOT&quot;, &quot;REQUIRED&quot;, &quot;SHALL&quot;, &quot;SHALL NOT&quot;, &quot;SHOULD&quot;, &quot;S
 
 An origin server that supports the resolution of `http` URIs can indicate support for this
 specification by providing an alternative service advertisement {{RFC7838}} for a protocol
-identifier that uses TLS, such as `h2` {{RFC7540}}, or `http/1.1` {{?RFC7301}}.  Note that HTTP/1.1
-requests MUST use the absolute form (see Section 5.3.2 of {{RFC7230}}).
+identifier that uses TLS, such as `h2` {{RFC7540}}, or `http/1.1` {{?RFC7301}}.
+
+Requests for `http` resources using TLS MUST include the scheme in the request.  HTTP/2 requires
+this and provides the `:scheme` pseudo-header field for this purpose.  HTTP/1.1 provides no such
+field, and even prohibits the use of the absolute form for requests that are sent directly to an
+origin server (see Section 5.3.1 of {{RFC7230}}).  This document overrides that requirement for
+requests with the `http` scheme that are sent over TLS; these requests MUST be made using the
+absolute form as though the server were a proxy.
 
</pre>
<p>OK, I tried :)  So what is our rationale for excluding h1?  That it doesn't carry an explicit scheme?</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Try to explain and justify the use of the absolute form in HTTP/1.1 (#257)
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Closed #257.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/257" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/257" data-id="186464516" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#257</a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Client hints: add support for hinting Display Gamut / Color Profile (#263)
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The spec is past WGLC, so adding new hints right now might be bad timing.

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<p>The spec is past WGLC, so adding new hints right now might be bad timing.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Advice for ServiceWorker implementation (#256)
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FYI/FWIW I've just implemented this spec via a service worker.

- NPM: https://www.npmjs.com/package/cache-digest-immutable
- Code: https://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/cache-digest-immutable

It would be nice if the spec clarified and defined the following. (I deduced it from @kazuho 's server and serviceworker implementations.)

- HTTP header is called `cache-digest`. This is a very handy alternative to the HTTP2 frame which service workers can't access currently.
- Base64 encoding must not be padded with `=` trailing.
- String equivalent of the `COMPLETE` (0x2) flag for the HTTP header is `complete` and appended as `... base64 ...; complete` (note the semicolon and white space)

Additionally more examples would be welcome, to aid implementors in validating their support. In particular the etags concatenation is unclear to me from the referenced spec.

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<p>FYI/FWIW I've just implemented this spec via a service worker.</p>

<ul>
<li>NPM: <a href=3D"https://www.npmjs.com/package/cache-digest-immutable"=
>https://www.npmjs.com/package/cache-digest-immutable</a>
</li>
<li>Code: <a href=3D"https://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/cache-digest-immutable=
">https://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/cache-digest-immutable</a>
</li>
</ul>

<p>It would be nice if the spec clarified and defined the following. (I d=
educed it from <a href=3D"https://github.com/kazuho" class=3D"user-mentio=
n">@kazuho</a> 's server and serviceworker implementations.)</p>

<ul>
<li>HTTP header is called <code>cache-digest</code>. This is a very handy=
 alternative to the HTTP2 frame which service workers can't access curren=
tly.</li>
<li>Base64 encoding must not be padded with <code>=3D</code> trailing.</l=
i>
<li>String equivalent of the <code>COMPLETE</code> (0x2) flag for the HTT=
P header is <code>complete</code> and appended as <code>... base64 ...; c=
omplete</code> (note the semicolon and white space)</li>
</ul>

<p>Additionally more examples would be welcome, to aid implementors in va=
lidating their support. In particular the etags concatenation is unclear =
to me from the referenced spec.</p>

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- Code: https://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/cache-digest-immutable\r\n\r\nIt wo=
uld be nice if the spec clarified and defined the following. (I deduced i=
t from @kazuho 's server and serviceworker implementations.)\r\n\r\n- HTT=
P header is called `cache-digest`. This is a very handy alternative to th=
e HTTP2 frame which service workers can't access currently.\r\n- Base64 e=
ncoding must not be padded with `=3D` trailing.\r\n- String equivalent of=
 the `COMPLETE` (0x2) flag for the HTTP header is `complete` and appended=
 as `... base64 ...; complete` (note the semicolon and white space)\r\n\r=
\nAdditionally more examples would be welcome, to aid implementors in val=
idating their support. In particular the etags concatenation is unclear t=
o me from the referenced spec."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"ht=
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Expand on motivation for the encoding (#213)
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I believe this can be closed with the changes in https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/5ec7eed4fa2c941a34e868117ef2fb634d8d506e

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<p>I believe this can be closed with the changes in <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/5ec7eed4fa2c941a34e868117ef2fb634d8d506e" class="commit-link"><tt>5ec7eed</tt></a></p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Overhead in cache digest algorithm (#264)
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Thank you for your suggestions.

> __De-dupe URLs before hashing them__

Is it likely that there'd be lot of freshly-cached (or stale-cached) responses sharing the same URL?

My assumption is that the answer is no, and that we do not need to recommend deduping the URLs before hashing (note: deduplication after hashing and truncating would still be necessary even if you dedupe the URLs beforehand).

If the answer is yes, then we should consider including additional keys into the hash context so that the server can more correctly identify what is being cached.

> __Trim URL origin__

I agree that we can trim the origin part of the URL, since in the latest draft we have an origin field for every CACHE_DIGEST frame.

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<p>Thank you for your suggestions.</p>

<blockquote>
<p><strong>De-dupe URLs before hashing them</strong></p>
</blockquote>

<p>Is it likely that there'd be lot of freshly-cached (or stale-cached) r=
esponses sharing the same URL?</p>

<p>My assumption is that the answer is no, and that we do not need to rec=
ommend deduping the URLs before hashing (note: deduplication after hashin=
g and truncating would still be necessary even if you dedupe the URLs bef=
orehand).</p>

<p>If the answer is yes, then we should consider including additional key=
s into the hash context so that the server can more correctly identify wh=
at is being cached.</p>

<blockquote>
<p><strong>Trim URL origin</strong></p>
</blockquote>

<p>I agree that we can trim the origin part of the URL, since in the late=
st draft we have an origin field for every CACHE_DIGEST frame.</p>

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ly-cached (or stale-cached) responses sharing the same URL?\r\n\r\nMy ass=
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\r\n\r\nIf the answer is yes, then we should consider including additiona=
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When using small values, 50-100 bytes of a typical URL (w/o origin), I do not see significant performance difference between sha256 and xxhash64 using pure JavaScript implementations in the browser. YMMV.

Code & results:
https://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/fingerprinting-benchmarks

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<p>When using small values, 50-100 bytes of a typical URL (w/o origin), I=
 do not see significant performance difference between sha256 and xxhash6=
4 using pure JavaScript implementations in the browser. YMMV.</p>

<p>Code &amp; results:<br>
<a href=3D"https://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/fingerprinting-benchmarks">https=
://gitlab.com/sebdeckers/fingerprinting-benchmarks</a></p>

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Superceded by other changes.

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<p>Superceded by other changes.</p>

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... occurs twice in the current draft, without much context. Should it be removed?

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<p>... occurs twice in the current draft, without much context. Should it be removed?</p>

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In working on RFC5988bis, I'm referring to this spec, and finding it's difficult to talk about the concepts, because so much has been pared back.

In particular:

* [ ] There isn't any prose reference to the "*" form of the attribute name; it only occurs in examples. One would assume that this is the normative way to invoke this encoding, but it isn't specified.
* [ ] A distinct name for the encoding would help; right now, the best I can do is "the encoding specified in RFC5987bis".
* [ ] The examples of how to use this in header specifications needs to be deeper.

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<p>In working on RFC5988bis, I'm referring to this spec, and finding it's difficult to talk about the concepts, because so much has been pared back.</p>
<p>In particular:</p>
<ul class="contains-task-list">
<li class="task-list-item"><input type="checkbox" class="task-list-item-checkbox" disabled=""> There isn't any prose reference to the "*" form of the attribute name; it only occurs in examples. One would assume that this is the normative way to invoke this encoding, but it isn't specified.</li>
<li class="task-list-item"><input type="checkbox" class="task-list-item-checkbox" disabled=""> A distinct name for the encoding would help; right now, the best I can do is "the encoding specified in RFC5987bis".</li>
<li class="task-list-item"><input type="checkbox" class="task-list-item-checkbox" disabled=""> The examples of how to use this in header specifications needs to be deeper.</li>
</ul>

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"nape"? (non-ASCII P. E.)

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<p>"nape"? (non-ASCII P. E.)</p>

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Closed #213.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/213" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/213" data-id="166080503" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#213</a>.</p>

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Nape is an English word, a bit odd to use as a name. IPE?

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<p>Nape is an English word, a bit odd to use as a name. IPE?</p>

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sgtm

I  should use that everywhere then, including the title, right?

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<p>sgtm</p>

<p>I  should use that everywhere then, including the title, right?</p>

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Current spec is using Golomb-coded sets as the algorithm to create digests.

While they show great space-efficiency, Golomb-coded sets do not enable O(1) removal from the digest, which means from a browser implementation perspective, the browser would have to calculate the hash for each host upon connection creation.

That poses a couple of issues from an implementation perspective:

* Calculating the hash on each connection establishment may be expensive. That part seems inherent to the algorithm and not likely to be optimized away.
* Calculating the hash requires per-host indexing. That part is just a limitation of many current cache implementations.

A cache digest algorithm that enables O(1) removal (as well as addition) to the digest would enable us to move away from those limitations:

* Browsers can calculate a per-host digest once, then keep updating it as resources are added to the cache as well as when resources are removed from the cache. No need for per-host indexing.
  -  In order to do that, browsers would need to persist digests along with the cache
* Upon connection establishment, the browser can just send the ready-made digest to the server. Win!

During the HTTPWS, counting bloom filters were mentioned as an O(1) removal algorithm, but they are extremely inefficient when it comes to space. (~4 times bigger than bloom filters)

Turns out, [Cuckoo filters](https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~binfan/papers/login_cuckoofilter.pdf) enable O(1) removal while being more space efficient than bloom filters. While they are slightly bigger than Golomb-coded sets based digests, the cheaper runtime costs can make up for that deficiency.

/cc @kazuho @mnot @cbentzel @mcmanus




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<p>Current spec is using Golomb-coded sets as the algorithm to create digests.</p>
<p>While they show great space-efficiency, Golomb-coded sets do not enable O(1) removal from the digest, which means from a browser implementation perspective, the browser would have to calculate the hash for each host upon connection creation.</p>
<p>That poses a couple of issues from an implementation perspective:</p>
<ul>
<li>Calculating the hash on each connection establishment may be expensive. That part seems inherent to the algorithm and not likely to be optimized away.</li>
<li>Calculating the hash requires per-host indexing. That part is just a limitation of many current cache implementations.</li>
</ul>
<p>A cache digest algorithm that enables O(1) removal (as well as addition) to the digest would enable us to move away from those limitations:</p>
<ul>
<li>Browsers can calculate a per-host digest once, then keep updating it as resources are added to the cache as well as when resources are removed from the cache. No need for per-host indexing.
<ul>
<li>In order to do that, browsers would need to persist digests along with the cache</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Upon connection establishment, the browser can just send the ready-made digest to the server. Win!</li>
</ul>
<p>During the HTTPWS, counting bloom filters were mentioned as an O(1) removal algorithm, but they are extremely inefficient when it comes to space. (~4 times bigger than bloom filters)</p>
<p>Turns out, <a href="https://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Ebinfan/papers/login_cuckoofilter.pdf">Cuckoo filters</a> enable O(1) removal while being more space efficient than bloom filters. While they are slightly bigger than Golomb-coded sets based digests, the cheaper runtime costs can make up for that deficiency.</p>
<p>/cc <a href="https://github.com/kazuho" class="user-mention">@kazuho</a> <a href="https://github.com/mnot" class="user-mention">@mnot</a> <a href="https://github.com/cbentzel" class="user-mention">@cbentzel</a> <a href="https://github.com/mcmanus" class="user-mention">@mcmanus</a></p>

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Thank you for opening the issue. I think we should adopt a method that can be implemented by web browsers easily, as long as the digest remains fairly compact. Regarding the size of the digest, I have no objection for choosing Cuckoo Filters.

However, I am not sure if the proposed method would work as expected.

> Browsers can calculate a per-host digest once, then keep updating it as resources are added to the cache as well as when resources are removed from the cache.

There are two digests (i.e. fresh and stale) for every host. You need to update the digests when the state of a cached response changes from fresh to stale, by evicting the entry from the fresh digest and inserting it to the stale digest.

Is that possible?

Also, if it is possible to maintain a per-origin Cuckoo Filter that is kept in sync with the cached resources, I think it would also be possible to maintain a per-host list of cached URLs as well.

Anyways, let me state that I'm very delighted to see people looking into how Cache Digests can be implemented within the web browser. I was considering of polishing up my ServiceWorker implementation, but maybe I should spend time in looking into the browsers as well.

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<p>Thank you for opening the issue. I think we should adopt a method that=
 can be implemented by web browsers easily, as long as the digest remains=
 fairly compact. Regarding the size of the digest, I have no objection fo=
r choosing Cuckoo Filters.</p>

<p>However, I am not sure if the proposed method would work as expected.<=
/p>

<blockquote>
<p>Browsers can calculate a per-host digest once, then keep updating it a=
s resources are added to the cache as well as when resources are removed =
from the cache.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>There are two digests (i.e. fresh and stale) for every host. You need =
to update the digests when the state of a cached response changes from fr=
esh to stale, by evicting the entry from the fresh digest and inserting i=
t to the stale digest.</p>

<p>Is that possible?</p>

<p>Also, if it is possible to maintain a per-origin Cuckoo Filter that is=
 kept in sync with the cached resources, I think it would also be possibl=
e to maintain a per-host list of cached URLs as well.</p>

<p>Anyways, let me state that I'm very delighted to see people looking in=
to how Cache Digests can be implemented within the web browser. I was con=
sidering of polishing up my ServiceWorker implementation, but maybe I sho=
uld spend time in looking into the browsers as well.</p>

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sercontent.com/assets/143418/15842166/7c72db34-2c0b-11e6-9aed-b5249811277=
7.png","action":{"name":"Open in GitHub","url":"https://github.com/httpwg=
/http-extensions"}},"updates":{"snippets":[{"icon":"PERSON","message":"@k=
azuho in #268: Thank you for opening the issue. I think we should adopt a=
 method that can be implemented by web browsers easily, as long as the di=
gest remains fairly compact. Regarding the size of the digest, I have no =
objection for choosing Cuckoo Filters.\r\n\r\nHowever, I am not sure if t=
he proposed method would work as expected.\r\n\r\n\u003e Browsers can cal=
culate a per-host digest once, then keep updating it as resources are add=
ed to the cache as well as when resources are removed from the cache.\r\n=
\r\nThere are two digests (i.e. fresh and stale) for every host. You need=
 to update the digests when the state of a cached response changes from f=
resh to stale, by evicting the entry from the fresh digest and inserting =
it to the stale digest.\r\n\r\nIs that possible?\r\n\r\nAlso, if it is po=
ssible to maintain a per-origin Cuckoo Filter that is kept in sync with t=
he cached resources, I think it would also be possible to maintain a per-=
host list of cached URLs as well.\r\n\r\nAnyways, let me state that I'm v=
ery delighted to see people looking into how Cache Digests can be impleme=
nted within the web browser. I was considering of polishing up my Service=
Worker implementation, but maybe I should spend time in looking into the =
browsers as well."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.=
com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/268#issuecomment-261242398"}}}</script>=

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> There are two digests (i.e. fresh and stale) for every host. You need to update the digests when the state of a cached response changes from fresh to stale, by evicting the entry from the fresh digest and inserting it to the stale digest.

Hmm, that would indeed increase complexity as I believe the cache is not aware of resources going into the "stale" state unless they're queried. (@cbentzel & @mcmanus - please correct me if I'm wrong).

Is there any reason we can't use a single digest with URL+ETag (so use the ETags also for fresh resources) to avoid that complexity? Are there any downsides to that?

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<blockquote>
<p>There are two digests (i.e. fresh and stale) for every host. You need =
to update the digests when the state of a cached response changes from fr=
esh to stale, by evicting the entry from the fresh digest and inserting i=
t to the stale digest.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Hmm, that would indeed increase complexity as I believe the cache is n=
ot aware of resources going into the "stale" state unless they're queried=
. (<a href=3D"https://github.com/cbentzel" class=3D"user-mention">@cbentz=
el</a> &amp; <a href=3D"https://github.com/mcmanus" class=3D"user-mention=
">@mcmanus</a> - please correct me if I'm wrong).</p>

<p>Is there any reason we can't use a single digest with URL+ETag (so use=
 the ETags also for fresh resources) to avoid that complexity? Are there =
any downsides to that?</p>

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 every host. You need to update the digests when the state of a cached re=
sponse changes from fresh to stale, by evicting the entry from the fresh =
digest and inserting it to the stale digest.\r\n\r\nHmm, that would indee=
d increase complexity as I believe the cache is not aware of resources go=
ing into the \"stale\" state unless they're queried. (@cbentzel \u0026 @m=
cmanus - please correct me if I'm wrong).\r\n\r\nIs there any reason we c=
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@yoavweiss 
> Is there any reason we can't use a single digest with URL+ETag (so use the ETags also for fresh resources) to avoid that complexity? Are there any downsides to that?

It is true that you could use URL+ETag as a key of fresh digests (though server implementations might become slightly complicated).

However, it is still desirable to be able to distinguish if whether a resource is freshly cached or stale-cached, since the server behavior needs to be different for the two. For freshly cached resources, there is no need to push anything. For stale-cached resources, the server needs to push 304.

If the client sends a single digest covering both freshly and stale-cached resources, then the server would need to either push nothing for both of them (which means that client would issue conditional requests for stale-cached responses that it need to use), or push 304 for both of them (which means that the server would send 304 for even the freshly cached resources).

Note also that we haven't agreed on whether if sending a digest of stale responses is worth the extra bandwidth, or how we should push 304.

Last time I looked into my Firefox's cache, the number of cached objects were as follows:

|domain|total objects|fresh objects|
| --- | --- | --- |
|*.facebook.com|2273|790|
|*.google.com|1003|373|

As you can see, fresh objects consists about 1/3 of the total objects cached for a domain. Sending a digest for all objects would roughly triple the size of the digest from when we just send the digest for freshly-cached objects.

Considering the fact that assets critical to the rendering path is likely marked as fresh, it would make sense to just send the digest for freshly cached objects.

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/yoavweiss" class=3D"user-mention">@yoavw=
eiss</a> </p>

<blockquote>
<p>Is there any reason we can't use a single digest with URL+ETag (so use=
 the ETags also for fresh resources) to avoid that complexity? Are there =
any downsides to that?</p>
</blockquote>

<p>It is true that you could use URL+ETag as a key of fresh digests (thou=
gh server implementations might become slightly complicated).</p>

<p>However, it is still desirable to be able to distinguish if whether a =
resource is freshly cached or stale-cached, since the server behavior nee=
ds to be different for the two. For freshly cached resources, there is no=
 need to push anything. For stale-cached resources, the server needs to p=
ush 304.</p>

<p>If the client sends a single digest covering both freshly and stale-ca=
ched resources, then the server would need to either push nothing for bot=
h of them (which means that client would issue conditional requests for s=
tale-cached responses that it need to use), or push 304 for both of them =
(which means that the server would send 304 for even the freshly cached r=
esources).</p>

<p>Note also that we haven't agreed on whether if sending a digest of sta=
le responses is worth the extra bandwidth, or how we should push 304.</p>=


<p>Last time I looked into my Firefox's cache, the number of cached objec=
ts were as follows:</p>

<table>
<thead>
<tr>
<th>domain</th>
<th>total objects</th>
<th>fresh objects</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>*.facebook.com</td>
<td>2273</td>
<td>790</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>*.google.com</td>
<td>1003</td>
<td>373</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

<p>As you can see, fresh objects consists about 1/3 of the total objects =
cached for a domain. Sending a digest for all objects would roughly tripl=
e the size of the digest from when we just send the digest for freshly-ca=
ched objects.</p>

<p>Considering the fact that assets critical to the rendering path is lik=
ely marked as fresh, it would make sense to just send the digest for fres=
hly cached objects.</p>

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azuho in #268: @yoavweiss \r\n\u003e Is there any reason we can't use a s=
ingle digest with URL+ETag (so use the ETags also for fresh resources) to=
 avoid that complexity? Are there any downsides to that?\r\n\r\nIt is tru=
e that you could use URL+ETag as a key of fresh digests (though server im=
plementations might become slightly complicated).\r\n\r\nHowever, it is s=
till desirable to be able to distinguish if whether a resource is freshly=
 cached or stale-cached, since the server behavior needs to be different =
for the two. For freshly cached resources, there is no need to push anyth=
ing. For stale-cached resources, the server needs to push 304.\r\n\r\nIf =
the client sends a single digest covering both freshly and stale-cached r=
esources, then the server would need to either push nothing for both of t=
hem (which means that client would issue conditional requests for stale-c=
ached responses that it need to use), or push 304 for both of them (which=
 means that the server would send 304 for even the freshly cached resourc=
es).\r\n\r\nNote also that we haven't agreed on whether if sending a dige=
st of stale responses is worth the extra bandwidth, or how we should push=
 304.\r\n\r\nLast time I looked into my Firefox's cache, the number of ca=
ched objects were as follows:\r\n\r\n|domain|total objects|fresh objects|=
\r\n| --- | --- | --- |\r\n|*.facebook.com|2273|790|\r\n|*.google.com|100=
3|373|\r\n\r\nAs you can see, fresh objects consists about 1/3 of the tot=
al objects cached for a domain. Sending a digest for all objects would ro=
ughly triple the size of the digest from when we just send the digest for=
 freshly-cached objects.\r\n\r\nConsidering the fact that assets critical=
 to the rendering path is likely marked as fresh, it would make sense to =
just send the digest for freshly cached objects."}],"action":{"name":"Vie=
w Issue","url":"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/268#issu=
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Enabling O(1) removal from digest (#268)
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> In addition to my previous comments, I think you cannot expand an existing Cuckoo Filter.
> 
> In other words, every time the number of resources that need to be tracked doubles (or halves), you would need to reconstruct a new Cuckoo Filter (of the adjusted size) by iterating through the cache entries. I do not think that is something you would like to do.

My understanding from the Cuckoo filter and [Cuckoo hashing](http://www.it-c.dk/people/pagh/papers/cuckoo-jour.pdf) papers is that this expansion is taken into consideration in the amortized complexity analysis. Even if you look at the worst case, such expansion's cost is O(N), which is asymptotically similar to the cost GCS incur on every connection establishment.

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<blockquote>
<p>In addition to my previous comments, I think you cannot expand an exis=
ting Cuckoo Filter.</p>

<p>In other words, every time the number of resources that need to be tra=
cked doubles (or halves), you would need to reconstruct a new Cuckoo Filt=
er (of the adjusted size) by iterating through the cache entries. I do no=
t think that is something you would like to do.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>My understanding from the Cuckoo filter and <a href=3D"http://www.it-c=
.dk/people/pagh/papers/cuckoo-jour.pdf">Cuckoo hashing</a> papers is that=
 this expansion is taken into consideration in the amortized complexity a=
nalysis. Even if you look at the worst case, such expansion's cost is O(N=
), which is asymptotically similar to the cost GCS incur on every connect=
ion establishment.</p>

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oavweiss in #268: \u003e In addition to my previous comments, I think you=
 cannot expand an existing Cuckoo Filter.\r\n\u003e \r\n\u003e In other w=
ords, every time the number of resources that need to be tracked doubles =
(or halves), you would need to reconstruct a new Cuckoo Filter (of the ad=
justed size) by iterating through the cache entries. I do not think that =
is something you would like to do.\r\n\r\nMy understanding from the Cucko=
o filter and [Cuckoo hashing](http://www.it-c.dk/people/pagh/papers/cucko=
o-jour.pdf) papers is that this expansion is taken into consideration in =
the amortized complexity analysis. Even if you look at the worst case, su=
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> However, in a Cuckoo Filter, there is no such reference. Therefore, to (re)build a Cuckoo Filter, you would need to use some pre-existing structure in the browser cache to iterate through the objects belonging to a specific origin. However, under premise that there is no per-origin index (note: we are considering the use of Cookie Filters since we do not want to introduce such index), we would need to iterate through the entire cache.

That would indeed be a serious handicap to the Cuckoo filter approach.
Fortunately, browsers can extend the basic Cuckoo filter implementation to also store the full crypto hashes or other references to the stored objects on top of storing fingerprints.

This extra info won't be sent up as part of the Cuckoo filter, but can be used locally to extend it in O(N) complexity.

Such references to the actual stored objects can also allow periodic (potentially out-of-band) O(N) calculation to create a stale resources filter that would make it easier to push 304s.


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<blockquote>
<p>However, in a Cuckoo Filter, there is no such reference. Therefore, to=
 (re)build a Cuckoo Filter, you would need to use some pre-existing struc=
ture in the browser cache to iterate through the objects belonging to a s=
pecific origin. However, under premise that there is no per-origin index =
(note: we are considering the use of Cookie Filters since we do not want =
to introduce such index), we would need to iterate through the entire cac=
he.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>That would indeed be a serious handicap to the Cuckoo filter approach.=
<br>
Fortunately, browsers can extend the basic Cuckoo filter implementation t=
o also store the full crypto hashes or other references to the stored obj=
ects on top of storing fingerprints.</p>

<p>This extra info won't be sent up as part of the Cuckoo filter, but can=
 be used locally to extend it in O(N) complexity.</p>

<p>Such references to the actual stored objects can also allow periodic (=
potentially out-of-band) O(N) calculation to create a stale resources fil=
ter that would make it easier to push 304s.</p>

<p style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&m=
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oavweiss in #268: \u003e However, in a Cuckoo Filter, there is no such re=
ference. Therefore, to (re)build a Cuckoo Filter, you would need to use s=
ome pre-existing structure in the browser cache to iterate through the ob=
jects belonging to a specific origin. However, under premise that there i=
s no per-origin index (note: we are considering the use of Cookie Filters=
 since we do not want to introduce such index), we would need to iterate =
through the entire cache.\r\n\r\nThat would indeed be a serious handicap =
to the Cuckoo filter approach.\r\nFortunately, browsers can extend the ba=
sic Cuckoo filter implementation to also store the full crypto hashes or =
other references to the stored objects on top of storing fingerprints.\r\=
n\r\nThis extra info won't be sent up as part of the Cuckoo filter, but c=
an be used locally to extend it in O(N) complexity.\r\n\r\nSuch reference=
s to the actual stored objects can also allow periodic (potentially out-o=
f-band) O(N) calculation to create a stale resources filter that would ma=
ke it easier to push 304s.\r\n"}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"ht=
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Merged #262.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/262" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/262" data-id="186976913" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#262</a>.</p>

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Merged #261.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/261" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/261" data-id="186835922" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#261</a>.</p>

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Closed #242.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/242" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/242" data-id="181942546" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#242</a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] require .well-known/http-opportunistic (#235)
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@mcmanus let me know if this isn't clear in the latest version.  I think that we're OK.

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<p><a href="https://github.com/mcmanus" class="user-mention">@mcmanus</a> let me know if this isn't clear in the latest version.  I think that we're OK.</p>

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Closed #234.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/234" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/234" data-id="175601371" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#234</a>.</p>

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This has been OBE.

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<p>This has been OBE.</p>

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Closed #205.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/205" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/205" data-id="163061442" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#205</a>.</p>

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Can we coalesce http and https?  The implication from everything we've said is "yes", but Erik remains reluctant.

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<p>Can we coalesce http and https?  The implication from everything we've said is "yes", but Erik remains reluctant.</p>

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@martinthomson pushed 1 commit.

68891a4  Forbid coalescing of all forms


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<p><a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/68891a4" class="commit-link">68891a4</a>  Forbid coalescing of all forms</li>
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@igrigorik Exactly. 
Still the poll numbers are not high but we can expect them to go wild next year since most manufactured displays are now wide-color. We can expect something alike to the Retina/Non-Retina race revolution. 

> Color-Gamut + Content-Color-Gamut: I think this makes sense.

Yes, this would cover 95% of use cases, and spec-wise it should be simple enough. 

So, even for simple cases, this CH spec addition is close to a `MUST` for responsive color optimisation. Why? Because `wide-gamut` is one of things those things that cannot even be guessed by *User Agent*: there is no info about the display on the string. So this spec is gonna be the only way to advertise to the server in an automated way.

> @color-profile.. I'm still trying to grok. From what I can tell right now, it accepts a URL to a profile, plus a rendering intent. Do we have some concrete examples of how we expect developers to use this?
Yes, I agree the use cases for `color-profile` are few, thus I don't see this one as `MUST`, however a `nice to have` one.

The use cases I see for this are minor but:
1) To override a photo ICC profile (ie. it was wrong in the first place)
2) To specify a ICC profile for a photo that had ICC stripped - or didn't had one in the first place (ie. it was removed by some "optimisation" tool like [jpegoptim](http://www.kokkonen.net/tjko/src/man/jpegoptim.txt) or [ImageOptim](https://imageoptim.com/color-profiles.html))

So yeah I can guess mostly photographer / design websites would make use of this one.
Note that, at least [CSS Level 4](https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-4/#at-ruledef-profile), doesn't need to include the URL for the profile since its predefined in two cases: `DCI-P3` and `Rec.2020`.

> Does this prevent us from publishing a new "replacement" draft? How do we advance these things forward?

I don't know about this *WG particular timing interests*,
however having `Color-Gamut + Content-Color-Gamut` in the spec as soon as possible would give Browser vendors enough time and pave the way to implement it smoothly. 
Be either an addition to CH or a different spec. For **consistency** it makes sense to be a part of the CH spec though, just like `DPR`.

I can understand well why some don't see the *urge for it*: 
you need to have a `wide-color` hardware first to *see* the need, 
but we can be sure that almost **any smartphone or computer display that you get in 2017 is gonna be a `wide-color` one**.

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/igrigorik" class=3D"user-mention">@igrig=
orik</a> Exactly.<br>
Still the poll numbers are not high but we can expect them to go wild nex=
t year since most manufactured displays are now wide-color. We can expect=
 something alike to the Retina/Non-Retina race revolution.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Color-Gamut + Content-Color-Gamut: I think this makes sense.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, this would cover 95% of use cases, and spec-wise it should be sim=
ple enough.</p>
<p>So, even for simple cases, this CH spec addition is close to a <code>M=
UST</code> for responsive color optimisation. Why? Because <code>wide-gam=
ut</code> is one of things those things that cannot even be guessed by <e=
m>User Agent</em>: there is no info about the display on the string. So t=
his spec is gonna be the only way to advertise to the server in an automa=
ted way.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>@color-profile.. I'm still trying to grok. From what I can tell right =
now, it accepts a URL to a profile, plus a rendering intent. Do we have s=
ome concrete examples of how we expect developers to use this?<br>
Yes, I agree the use cases for <code>color-profile</code> are few, thus I=
 don't see this one as <code>MUST</code>, however a <code>nice to have</c=
ode> one.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The use cases I see for this are minor but:</p>
<ol>
<li>To override a photo ICC profile (ie. it was wrong in the first place)=
</li>
<li>To specify a ICC profile for a photo that had ICC stripped - or didn'=
t had one in the first place (ie. it was removed by some "optimisation" t=
ool like <a href=3D"http://www.kokkonen.net/tjko/src/man/jpegoptim.txt">j=
pegoptim</a> or <a href=3D"https://imageoptim.com/color-profiles.html">Im=
ageOptim</a>)</li>
</ol>
<p>So yeah I can guess mostly photographer / design websites would make u=
se of this one.<br>
Note that, at least <a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-4/#at-rule=
def-profile">CSS Level 4</a>, doesn't need to include the URL for the pro=
file since its predefined in two cases: <code>DCI-P3</code> and <code>Rec=
.2020</code>.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Does this prevent us from publishing a new "replacement" draft? How do=
 we advance these things forward?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't know about this <em>WG particular timing interests</em>,<br>
however having <code>Color-Gamut + Content-Color-Gamut</code> in the spec=
 as soon as possible would give Browser vendors enough time and pave the =
way to implement it smoothly.<br>
Be either an addition to CH or a different spec. For <strong>consistency<=
/strong> it makes sense to be a part of the CH spec though, just like <co=
de>DPR</code>.</p>
<p>I can understand well why some don't see the <em>urge for it</em>:<br>=

you need to have a <code>wide-color</code> hardware first to <em>see</em>=
 the need,<br>
but we can be sure that almost <strong>any smartphone or computer display=
 that you get in 2017 is gonna be a <code>wide-color</code> one</strong>.=
</p>

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unta in #263: @igrigorik Exactly. \r\nStill the poll numbers are not high=
 but we can expect them to go wild next year since most manufactured disp=
lays are now wide-color. We can expect something alike to the Retina/Non-=
Retina race revolution. \r\n\r\n\u003e Color-Gamut + Content-Color-Gamut:=
 I think this makes sense.\r\n\r\nYes, this would cover 95% of use cases,=
 and spec-wise it should be simple enough. \r\n\r\nSo, even for simple ca=
ses, this CH spec addition is close to a `MUST` for responsive color opti=
misation. Why? Because `wide-gamut` is one of things those things that ca=
nnot even be guessed by *User Agent*: there is no info about the display =
on the string. So this spec is gonna be the only way to advertise to the =
server in an automated way.\r\n\r\n\u003e @color-profile.. I'm still tryi=
ng to grok. From what I can tell right now, it accepts a URL to a profile=
, plus a rendering intent. Do we have some concrete examples of how we ex=
pect developers to use this?\r\nYes, I agree the use cases for `color-pro=
file` are few, thus I don't see this one as `MUST`, however a `nice to ha=
ve` one.\r\n\r\nThe use cases I see for this are minor but:\r\n1) To over=
ride a photo ICC profile (ie. it was wrong in the first place)\r\n2) To s=
pecify a ICC profile for a photo that had ICC stripped - or didn't had on=
e in the first place (ie. it was removed by some \"optimisation\" tool li=
ke [jpegoptim](http://www.kokkonen.net/tjko/src/man/jpegoptim.txt) or [Im=
ageOptim](https://imageoptim.com/color-profiles.html))\r\n\r\nSo yeah I c=
an guess mostly photographer / design websites would make use of this one=
.\r\nNote that, at least [CSS Level 4](https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-4/=
#at-ruledef-profile), doesn't need to include the URL for the profile sin=
ce its predefined in two cases: `DCI-P3` and `Rec.2020`.\r\n\r\n\u003e Do=
es this prevent us from publishing a new \"replacement\" draft? How do we=
 advance these things forward?\r\n\r\nI don't know about this *WG particu=
lar timing interests*,\r\nhowever having `Color-Gamut + Content-Color-Gam=
ut` in the spec as soon as possible would give Browser vendors enough tim=
e and pave the way to implement it smoothly. \r\nBe either an addition to=
 CH or a different spec. For **consistency** it makes sense to be a part =
of the CH spec though, just like `DPR`.\r\n\r\nI can understand well why =
some don't see the *urge for it*: \r\nyou need to have a `wide-color` har=
dware first to *see* the need, \r\nbut we can be sure that almost **any s=
martphone or computer display that you get in 2017 is gonna be a `wide-co=
lor` one**."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.com/ht=
tpwg/http-extensions/issues/263#issuecomment-261876846"}}}</script>=

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Don't allow clients to send http and https requests coalesced. (#270)
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the pull request is fine by me. I do wonder if we shouldn't make the json a tad more complicated to allow for a reasonable mixed definition in the future. But an unreasonable one is obviously possible :)

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<p>the pull request is fine by me. I do wonder if we shouldn't make the j=
son a tad more complicated to allow for a reasonable mixed definition in =
the future. But an unreasonable one is obviously possible :)</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Client hints: add support for hinting Display Gamut / Color Profile (#263)
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Just to be clear -- there's no guarantee that the WG will adopt such a document; it depends on getting consensus to adopt, which in turn often depends on implementer interest. That's not to dissuade you from writing a document; however, the next logical step would be to engage with implementers (probably, Chrome) to see if they want to support it, not to create a standard in hopes of getting it implemented.

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<p>Just to be clear -- there's no guarantee that the WG will adopt such a=
 document; it depends on getting consensus to adopt, which in turn often =
depends on implementer interest. That's not to dissuade you from writing =
a document; however, the next logical step would be to engage with implem=
enters (probably, Chrome) to see if they want to support it, not to creat=
e a standard in hopes of getting it implemented.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] [6265bis] Add double-keying policy example to "Third-party cookies" section (#248)
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It would be useful to have an attribute in the Set-Cookie header so origins can specify double keying if the user agent supports it.

Set-Cookie: {name}={value};doubleKeyed;hhpOnly etc....

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<p>It would be useful to have an attribute in the Set-Cookie header so or=
igins can specify double keying if the user agent supports it.</p>
<p>Set-Cookie: {name}=3D{value};doubleKeyed;hhpOnly etc....</p>

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Woops

Set-Cookie: {name}={value};doubleKeyed;httpOnly;secure etc....

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<p>Woops</p>
<p>Set-Cookie: {name}={value};doubleKeyed;httpOnly;secure etc....</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] [6265bis] Add double-keying policy example to "Third-party cookies" section (#248)
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Isn't that effectively what SameSite is?

http://httpwg.org/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-cookie-same-site.html

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<p>Isn't that effectively what SameSite is?</p>
<p><a href="http://httpwg.org/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-cookie-same-site.html">http://httpwg.org/http-extensions/draft-ietf-httpbis-cookie-same-site.html</a></p>

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Merged #241.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/241" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/241" data-id="181650341" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#241</a>.</p>

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@reschke I'm inclined to close this as wontfix.. since this breaks the build and I'm not sure how to work around it.

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<p><a href="https://github.com/reschke" class="user-mention">@reschke</a> I'm inclined to close this as wontfix.. since this breaks the build and I'm not sure how to work around it.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] [6265bis] Add double-keying policy example to "Third-party cookies" section (#248)
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Actually, after thinking about it, it's not the same. 

The SameSite attribute says only send this cookie in a request when it is same origin as the top-level browsing context - effectively the server is asking for a "third-party cookie block" for this cookie.

I was thinking of the doubleKeyed cookie idea where there is a separate cookie store for the parent contexts, which would allow a lot of functionality but mitigate cross-origin tracking. If this supported as a user option in the UA why not extend it as a server option also allowing sites to help protect user's privacy.

Maybe there is a halfway house where you could constrain sending back cookies to same context i.e. the chain of descendent origins is the same as when the cookie was stored 

toplevel.com->widgit.com->cookiedwidgit.com
is not "same context" as
other-toplevel.com->cookiedwidgit.com etc.




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<p>Actually, after thinking about it, it's not the same.</p>
<p>The SameSite attribute says only send this cookie in a request when it=
 is same origin as the top-level browsing context - effectively the serve=
r is asking for a "third-party cookie block" for this cookie.</p>
<p>I was thinking of the doubleKeyed cookie idea where there is a separat=
e cookie store for the parent contexts, which would allow a lot of functi=
onality but mitigate cross-origin tracking. If this supported as a user o=
ption in the UA why not extend it as a server option also allowing sites =
to help protect user's privacy.</p>
<p>Maybe there is a halfway house where you could constrain sending back =
cookies to same context i.e. the chain of descendent origins is the same =
as when the cookie was stored</p>
<p>toplevel.com-&gt;widgit.com-&gt;cookiedwidgit.com<br>
is not "same context" as<br>
other-toplevel.com-&gt;cookiedwidgit.com etc.</p>

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me. \r\n\r\nThe SameSite attribute says only send this cookie in a reques=
t when it is same origin as the top-level browsing context - effectively =
the server is asking for a \"third-party cookie block\" for this cookie.\=
r\n\r\nI was thinking of the doubleKeyed cookie idea where there is a sep=
arate cookie store for the parent contexts, which would allow a lot of fu=
nctionality but mitigate cross-origin tracking. If this supported as a us=
er option in the UA why not extend it as a server option also allowing si=
tes to help protect user's privacy.\r\n\r\nMaybe there is a halfway house=
 where you could constrain sending back cookies to same context i.e. the =
chain of descendent origins is the same as when the cookie was stored \r\=
n\r\ntoplevel.com-\u003ewidgit.com-\u003ecookiedwidgit.com\r\nis not \"sa=
me context\" as\r\nother-toplevel.com-\u003ecookiedwidgit.com etc.\r\n\r\=
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Remove Crypto-Key header field (#273)
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@martinthomson pushed 1 commit.

31d7838  address ekr's review comments


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<p><a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/31d7838" class="commit-link">31d7838</a>  address ekr&#39;s review comments</li>
</ul>


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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Remove Crypto-Key header field (#273)
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This looks OK, except for whatever build error you have

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<p>This looks OK, except for whatever build error you have</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Advice on padding strategy (#272)
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ekr requested changes on this pull request.



> @@ -535,6 +535,14 @@ provides.  Alternatively, splitting up content into segments and storing the
 separately might reduce exposure. HTTP/2 {{?RFC7540}} combined with TLS
 {{?RFC5246}} might be used to hide the size of individual messages.
 
+Developing a padding strategy is difficult.  A good padding strategy can depend
+on context.  Common strategies include padding to a small set of fixed lengths,
+padding to multiples of a values, or padding to powers of 2.  Even a good
+strategy can still cause size information to leak if processing activity of a
+recipient can be observed.  This is especially good if the trailing records of
+a message contain only padding.  To minimize this information, non-padding data

I am guessing "good " is not the word you want here. Perhaps "true"?

> @@ -535,6 +535,14 @@ provides.  Alternatively, splitting up content into segments and storing the
 separately might reduce exposure. HTTP/2 {{?RFC7540}} combined with TLS
 {{?RFC5246}} might be used to hide the size of individual messages.
 
+Developing a padding strategy is difficult.  A good padding strategy can depend
+on context.  Common strategies include padding to a small set of fixed lengths,
+padding to multiples of a values, or padding to powers of 2.  Even a good
+strategy can still cause size information to leak if processing activity of a
+recipient can be observed.  This is especially good if the trailing records of
+a message contain only padding.  To minimize this information, non-padding data
+can be evenly distributed between records.

Perhaps something slightly stronger like "should" or "MAY WISH TO" 

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<p><b>@ekr</b> requested changes on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/272#pullrequestreview-10198065">draft-ietf-httpbis-encryption-encoding.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -535,6 +535,14 @@ provides.  Alternatively, splitting up content into segments and storing the
 separately might reduce exposure. HTTP/2 {{?RFC7540}} combined with TLS
 {{?RFC5246}} might be used to hide the size of individual messages.
 
+Developing a padding strategy is difficult.  A good padding strategy can depend
+on context.  Common strategies include padding to a small set of fixed lengths,
+padding to multiples of a values, or padding to powers of 2.  Even a good
+strategy can still cause size information to leak if processing activity of a
+recipient can be observed.  This is especially good if the trailing records of
+a message contain only padding.  To minimize this information, non-padding data
</pre>
<p>I am guessing "good " is not the word you want here. Perhaps "true"?</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/272#pullrequestreview-10198065">draft-ietf-httpbis-encryption-encoding.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -535,6 +535,14 @@ provides.  Alternatively, splitting up content into segments and storing the
 separately might reduce exposure. HTTP/2 {{?RFC7540}} combined with TLS
 {{?RFC5246}} might be used to hide the size of individual messages.
 
+Developing a padding strategy is difficult.  A good padding strategy can depend
+on context.  Common strategies include padding to a small set of fixed lengths,
+padding to multiples of a values, or padding to powers of 2.  Even a good
+strategy can still cause size information to leak if processing activity of a
+recipient can be observed.  This is especially good if the trailing records of
+a message contain only padding.  To minimize this information, non-padding data
+can be evenly distributed between records.
</pre>
<p>Perhaps something slightly stronger like "should" or "MAY WISH TO"</p>

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