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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Address client-hints-04 feedback (#361)
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@reschke can you take another pass, please? Want to make sure we caught all of your feedback here.

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<p><a href="https://github.com/reschke" class="user-mention">@reschke</a> can you take another pass, please? Want to make sure we caught all of your feedback here.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Geolocation Header (#364)
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@mnot I suggested to @luisbargu that we should start a thread here first to=
 hash out a few high-level questions about the existing proposal and possib=
le CH integration, before we take it to the wider list. I'll re-open this, =
but if you feel that this belongs on the list, we can take it there.

---

First off, I think CH is a great conceptual fit to what @luisbargu is propo=
sing, and I'd _really_ love to see us reusing established CH mechanism to e=
ase implementation, both on the UA/client side and for developers =E2=80=94=
 this makes everyone's life easier. I'll leave the "what" discussion, like =
granularity and type of data delivered via this hint, for a separate discus=
sion, and focus on the how here...

>Header sent from the server to the user agent when a host is compatible wi=
th the Geolocation
> Header and is requesting geolocation to be attached in subsequent request=
s.
>
>>Geolocation-Request: Path=3D"/localService"; Type=3DIfAlreadyGranted; Exp=
ires=3DThu, 18 Dec 2017 12:00:00 UTC

The CH mechanism for the above is:

> Accept-CH: Geolocation
> Accept-CH-Lifetime: 86400 (seconds)

There are two bits missing: Path and Type.=20

### Path
This is something we considered for CH in the past =E2=80=94 "I want to sco=
pe my hints to a subpath" =E2=80=94 but punted on due to limited (or so we =
deemed at the time, at least) utility vs implementation complexity tradeoff=
 (equivalent to cookie paths, which is a burden we didn't want to take on).=
 In the last few years of CH experiments, I've not heard any complaints or =
requests for this. I think that was the right call, and I'd suggest we stic=
k with it.

### Type
fwiw, I'd like to make an argument that we should omit this. The idea here =
is to enable sites to trigger a permission prompt via a header, which seems=
 convenient on the surface, but experience shows that this is a bad UX patt=
ern: you [should be using JS API to trigger permission prompt after explain=
ing the intent](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WNPIS_2F0eyDm5SS2E6LZ_7=
5tk6XtBSnR1xNjWJ_DPE/edit) and motivation. The incremental value we're addi=
ng with the header trigger is low, and seems more like a footgun.=20

If you buy both of the above, then CH has all the necessary building blocks=
 to enable Geolocation.=20

---

@luisbargu WDYT? How critical, or not, are Path and Type for the use case y=
ou had in mind?

@yoavweiss curious to hear your thoughts on the above, and Geolocation use =
case for CDNs.

@mnot tactical question: what's the right process for followup RFC's to "re=
gister" hints to be compatible with Accept-CH? Do we need any extra steps i=
n CH for a registry, or some extension hooks?

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/mnot" class=3D"user-mention">@mnot</a> I s=
uggested to <a href=3D"https://github.com/luisbargu" class=3D"user-mention"=
>@luisbargu</a> that we should start a thread here first to hash out a few =
high-level questions about the existing proposal and possible CH integratio=
n, before we take it to the wider list. I'll re-open this, but if you feel =
that this belongs on the list, we can take it there.</p>
<hr>
<p>First off, I think CH is a great conceptual fit to what <a href=3D"https=
://github.com/luisbargu" class=3D"user-mention">@luisbargu</a> is proposing=
, and I'd <em>really</em> love to see us reusing established CH mechanism t=
o ease implementation, both on the UA/client side and for developers =E2=80=
=94 this makes everyone's life easier. I'll leave the "what" discussion, li=
ke granularity and type of data delivered via this hint, for a separate dis=
cussion, and focus on the how here...</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Header sent from the server to the user agent when a host is compatible =
with the Geolocation<br>
Header and is requesting geolocation to be attached in subsequent requests.=
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Geolocation-Request: Path=3D"/localService"; Type=3DIfAlreadyGranted; Ex=
pires=3DThu, 18 Dec 2017 12:00:00 UTC</p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p>The CH mechanism for the above is:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Accept-CH: Geolocation<br>
Accept-CH-Lifetime: 86400 (seconds)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There are two bits missing: Path and Type.</p>
<h3>Path</h3>
<p>This is something we considered for CH in the past =E2=80=94 "I want to =
scope my hints to a subpath" =E2=80=94 but punted on due to limited (or so =
we deemed at the time, at least) utility vs implementation complexity trade=
off (equivalent to cookie paths, which is a burden we didn't want to take o=
n). In the last few years of CH experiments, I've not heard any complaints =
or requests for this. I think that was the right call, and I'd suggest we s=
tick with it.</p>
<h3>Type</h3>
<p>fwiw, I'd like to make an argument that we should omit this. The idea he=
re is to enable sites to trigger a permission prompt via a header, which se=
ems convenient on the surface, but experience shows that this is a bad UX p=
attern: you <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WNPIS_2F0eyDm5SS=
2E6LZ_75tk6XtBSnR1xNjWJ_DPE/edit">should be using JS API to trigger permiss=
ion prompt after explaining the intent</a> and motivation. The incremental =
value we're adding with the header trigger is low, and seems more like a fo=
otgun.</p>
<p>If you buy both of the above, then CH has all the necessary building blo=
cks to enable Geolocation.</p>
<hr>
<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/luisbargu" class=3D"user-mention">@luisbar=
gu</a> WDYT? How critical, or not, are Path and Type for the use case you h=
ad in mind?</p>
<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/yoavweiss" class=3D"user-mention">@yoavwei=
ss</a> curious to hear your thoughts on the above, and Geolocation use case=
 for CDNs.</p>
<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/mnot" class=3D"user-mention">@mnot</a> tac=
tical question: what's the right process for followup RFC's to "register" h=
ints to be compatible with Accept-CH? Do we need any extra steps in CH for =
a registry, or some extension hooks?</p>

<p style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&mda=
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a href=3D"https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AORpyFIU0c0IJif=
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@mnot I suggested to @luisbargu that we should start a thread here first to=
 hash out a few high-level questions about the existing proposal and possib=
le CH integration, before we take it to the wider list. I'll re-open this, =
but if you feel that this belongs on the list, we can take it there.\r\n\r\=
n---\r\n\r\nFirst off, I think CH is a great conceptual fit to what @luisba=
rgu is proposing, and I'd _really_ love to see us reusing established CH me=
chanism to ease implementation, both on the UA/client side and for develope=
rs =E2=80=94 this makes everyone's life easier. I'll leave the \"what\" dis=
cussion, like granularity and type of data delivered via this hint, for a s=
eparate discussion, and focus on the how here...\r\n\r\n\u003eHeader sent f=
rom the server to the user agent when a host is compatible with the Geoloca=
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its missing: Path and Type. \r\n\r\n### Path\r\nThis is something we consid=
ered for CH in the past =E2=80=94 \"I want to scope my hints to a subpath\"=
 =E2=80=94 but punted on due to limited (or so we deemed at the time, at le=
ast) utility vs implementation complexity tradeoff (equivalent to cookie pa=
ths, which is a burden we didn't want to take on). In the last few years of=
 CH experiments, I've not heard any complaints or requests for this. I thin=
k that was the right call, and I'd suggest we stick with it.\r\n\r\n### Typ=
e\r\nfwiw, I'd like to make an argument that we should omit this. The idea =
here is to enable sites to trigger a permission prompt via a header, which =
seems convenient on the surface, but experience shows that this is a bad UX=
 pattern: you [should be using JS API to trigger permission prompt after ex=
plaining the intent](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WNPIS_2F0eyDm5SS2E=
6LZ_75tk6XtBSnR1xNjWJ_DPE/edit) and motivation. The incremental value we're=
 adding with the header trigger is low, and seems more like a footgun. \r\n=
\r\nIf you buy both of the above, then CH has all the necessary building bl=
ocks to enable Geolocation. \r\n\r\n---\r\n\r\n@luisbargu WDYT? How critica=
l, or not, are Path and Type for the use case you had in mind?\r\n\r\n@yoav=
weiss curious to hear your thoughts on the above, and Geolocation use case =
for CDNs.\r\n\r\n@mnot tactical question: what's the right process for foll=
owup RFC's to \"register\" hints to be compatible with Accept-CH? Do we nee=
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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2017 19:08:09 +0000 (UTC)
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> Maybe add a full example, including a request/response pair for the case when "immutable" is not present?

I actually toyed with this originally and decided the current arrangement was better. Drawing the absence of a request (or the case when nothing is different from the 723x state) didn't really clarify the normative text. It turned out better to just focus on the syntax of immutable in a response imo.

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<blockquote>
<p>Maybe add a full example, including a request/response pair for the case=
 when "immutable" is not present?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I actually toyed with this originally and decided the current arrangemen=
t was better. Drawing the absence of a request (or the case when nothing is=
 different from the 723x state) didn't really clarify the normative text. I=
t turned out better to just focus on the syntax of immutable in a response =
imo.</p>

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ginally and decided the current arrangement was better. Drawing the absence=
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remainder addressed in -03. thanks

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<p>remainder addressed in -03. thanks</p>

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Closed #350.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/350" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/350" data-id="230588689" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#350</a>.</p>

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Closed #351.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/351" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/351" data-id="230589273" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#351</a>.</p>

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addressed in -03. thanks

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<p>addressed in -03. thanks</p>

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I still feel path can be useful, mainly to not "over-send" data that in this case might be sensitive from a privacy point of view. But I also understand the complexity tradeoffs, and Path is not core to this proposal. So if you went through this for CH and considered path was not worth, it probably applies well to this case.

Regarding Type to trigger prompts... Right, it's doable through JS but was nice to offer a purely http based solution. Also understand the tradeoff in this case for value vs complexity, and agree it's also not core to the geolocation header.

So on my side, if others think CH is the right approach for this, then for consistency and simplicity I'd be happy to follow that path and start a draft, on top of CH. Happy to hear other opinions :)

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<p>I still feel path can be useful, mainly to not "over-send" data that i=
n this case might be sensitive from a privacy point of view. But I also u=
nderstand the complexity tradeoffs, and Path is not core to this proposal=
. So if you went through this for CH and considered path was not worth, i=
t probably applies well to this case.</p>
<p>Regarding Type to trigger prompts... Right, it's doable through JS but=
 was nice to offer a purely http based solution. Also understand the trad=
eoff in this case for value vs complexity, and agree it's also not core t=
o the geolocation header.</p>
<p>So on my side, if others think CH is the right approach for this, then=
 for consistency and simplicity I'd be happy to follow that path and star=
t a draft, on top of CH. Happy to hear other opinions :)</p>

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end\" data that in this case might be sensitive from a privacy point of v=
iew. But I also understand the complexity tradeoffs, and Path is not core=
 to this proposal. So if you went through this for CH and considered path=
 was not worth, it probably applies well to this case.\r\n\r\nRegarding T=
ype to trigger prompts... Right, it's doable through JS but was nice to o=
ffer a purely http based solution. Also understand the tradeoff in this c=
ase for value vs complexity, and agree it's also not core to the geolocat=
ion header.\r\n\r\nSo on my side, if others think CH is the right approac=
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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] No multiple headers with the same name (#365)
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I just noticed that you have 2 `Link` headers in the same response. According to 7230:

>  A sender MUST NOT generate multiple header fields with the same field
>   name in a message unless either the entire field value for that
>  header field is defined as a comma-separated list [i.e., #(values)]
>   or the header field is a well-known exception (as noted below).

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<p>I just noticed that you have 2 <code>Link</code> headers in the same response. According to 7230:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>A sender MUST NOT generate multiple header fields with the same field<br>
name in a message unless either the entire field value for that<br>
header field is defined as a comma-separated list [i.e., #(values)]<br>
or the header field is a well-known exception (as noted below).</p>
</blockquote>

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This is for Early Hints draft, not sure how I can put labels.

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<p>This is for Early Hints draft, not sure how I can put labels.</p>

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Yes, but `Link` is defined by RFC5988 as:

```
  Link           = "Link" ":" #link-value
```

i.e., it uses the comma-separated list syntax.

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<p>Yes, but <code>Link</code> is defined by RFC5988 as:</p>
<pre><code>  Link           = "Link" ":" #link-value
</code></pre>
<p>i.e., it uses the comma-separated list syntax.</p>

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Closed #365.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/365" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/365" data-id="240801603" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#365</a>.</p>

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right.

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<p>right.</p>

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@kazuho pushed 2 commits.

68210e9  Merge branch 'master' into kazuho/early-hints/wglc
d0903d6  multiple 103s


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<p><a href="https://github.com/kazuho" class="user-mention">@kazuho</a> pushed 2 commits.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/68210e9" class="commit-link">68210e9</a>  Merge branch &#39;master&#39; into kazuho/early-hints/wglc</li>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/d0903d6" class="commit-link">d0903d6</a>  multiple 103s</li>
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@wtarreau Thank you for the answer. Adopted the text (with nits) in d0903d6.

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<p><a href="https://github.com/wtarreau" class="user-mention">@wtarreau</a> Thank you for the answer. Adopted the text (with nits) in <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/d0903d61c8e591c800ca22534dd3e46b761737ec" class="commit-link"><tt>d0903d6</tt></a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Consulting the DNS on expanding ORIGIN set? (#330)
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> I'm trying to understand your second concern WRT operational behavior of clients. The origins being added are explicitly nominated by the server; presence in the certificate is not enough to cause the connection to be used (indeed, that concern was a large part of the motivation of this draft).

I believe that limiting origin-set and connection reuse was the original motivation for this draft, however, it seems that possible use cases changed a bit because of [draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs), which together with this draft, makes it possible to expand the origin-set and effectively hijack traffic for all domains that server has valid SSL certificates for.

Even ignoring the compromised server scenario, there are at least a few operational issues with bypassing DNS:

1. Many medium to large companies use multiple CDN providers and steer traffic using DNS. They use either custom GeoDNS solutions or services like [Cedexis](https://www.cedexis.com/solutions/multi-cdn/) to load balance traffic across multiple CDNs, or simply use one of the CDNs as the primary and rest as active backups. All those CDNs have valid SSL certificates, so neither CT nor certificate pinning would help.
Similarly, some websites migrate traffic to DDoS protection services only during attacks, but those services are configured and have valid SSL certificates at all times.
**Basically, configured != active.**

2. Servers with wildcard certificates can takeover all traffic for the domain, even if some subdomains would never be routed to a particular server. To give an extreme example, let's say that `www.bank.com`, `promotions.bank.com`, etc. are served by the CDN, but `secure.bank.com` is handled by the bank's own infrastructure. There is nothing stopping the CDN with valid certificate for `*.bank.com` from hijacking the traffic for `secure.bank.com`, and while certificate pinning would prevent traffic for `secure.bank.com` from reaching the CDN, it would effectively result in DoS and pretty bad end-user experience.

One solution that came up in discussions with @grittygrease and @enygren, was to include signed DNSSEC response in the `ORIGIN` frame, to prove that the traffic should be routed to this particular server. This obviously solves only part of the problem, since it doesn't mean that traffic from _this particular client_ would be routed to that server, but it's much better than servers going completely wild.

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<blockquote>
<p>I'm trying to understand your second concern WRT operational behavior of=
 clients. The origins being added are explicitly nominated by the server; p=
resence in the certificate is not enough to cause the connection to be used=
 (indeed, that concern was a large part of the motivation of this draft).</=
p>
</blockquote>
<p>I believe that limiting origin-set and connection reuse was the original=
 motivation for this draft, however, it seems that possible use cases chang=
ed a bit because of <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs">draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additiona=
l-certs</a>, which together with this draft, makes it possible to expand th=
e origin-set and effectively hijack traffic for all domains that server has=
 valid SSL certificates for.</p>
<p>Even ignoring the compromised server scenario, there are at least a few =
operational issues with bypassing DNS:</p>
<ol>
<li>
<p>Many medium to large companies use multiple CDN providers and steer traf=
fic using DNS. They use either custom GeoDNS solutions or services like <a =
href=3D"https://www.cedexis.com/solutions/multi-cdn/">Cedexis</a> to load b=
alance traffic across multiple CDNs, or simply use one of the CDNs as the p=
rimary and rest as active backups. All those CDNs have valid SSL certificat=
es, so neither CT nor certificate pinning would help.<br>
Similarly, some websites migrate traffic to DDoS protection services only d=
uring attacks, but those services are configured and have valid SSL certifi=
cates at all times.<br>
<strong>Basically, configured !=3D active.</strong></p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Servers with wildcard certificates can takeover all traffic for the doma=
in, even if some subdomains would never be routed to a particular server. T=
o give an extreme example, let's say that <code>www.bank.com</code>, <code>=
promotions.bank.com</code>, etc. are served by the CDN, but <code>secure.ba=
nk.com</code> is handled by the bank's own infrastructure. There is nothing=
 stopping the CDN with valid certificate for <code>*.bank.com</code> from h=
ijacking the traffic for <code>secure.bank.com</code>, and while certificat=
e pinning would prevent traffic for <code>secure.bank.com</code> from reach=
ing the CDN, it would effectively result in DoS and pretty bad end-user exp=
erience.</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>One solution that came up in discussions with <a href=3D"https://github.=
com/grittygrease" class=3D"user-mention">@grittygrease</a> and <a href=3D"h=
ttps://github.com/enygren" class=3D"user-mention">@enygren</a>, was to incl=
ude signed DNSSEC response in the <code>ORIGIN</code> frame, to prove that =
the traffic should be routed to this particular server. This obviously solv=
es only part of the problem, since it doesn't mean that traffic from <em>th=
is particular client</em> would be routed to that server, but it's much bet=
ter than servers going completely wild.</p>

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sh;<br />You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.<=
br />Reply to this email directly, <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/htt=
p-extensions/issues/330#issuecomment-313827663">view it on GitHub</a>, or <=
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: \u003e I'm trying to understand your second concern WRT operational behav=
ior of clients. The origins being added are explicitly nominated by the ser=
ver; presence in the certificate is not enough to cause the connection to b=
e used (indeed, that concern was a large part of the motivation of this dra=
ft).\r\n\r\nI believe that limiting origin-set and connection reuse was the=
 original motivation for this draft, however, it seems that possible use ca=
ses changed a bit because of [draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional-certs](=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bishop-httpbis-http2-additional=
-certs), which together with this draft, makes it possible to expand the or=
igin-set and effectively hijack traffic for all domains that server has val=
id SSL certificates for.\r\n\r\nEven ignoring the compromised server scenar=
io, there are at least a few operational issues with bypassing DNS:\r\n\r\n=
1. Many medium to large companies use multiple CDN providers and steer traf=
fic using DNS. They use either custom GeoDNS solutions or services like [Ce=
dexis](https://www.cedexis.com/solutions/multi-cdn/) to load balance traffi=
c across multiple CDNs, or simply use one of the CDNs as the primary and re=
st as active backups. All those CDNs have valid SSL certificates, so neithe=
r CT nor certificate pinning would help.\r\nSimilarly, some websites migrat=
e traffic to DDoS protection services only during attacks, but those servic=
es are configured and have valid SSL certificates at all times.\r\n**Basica=
lly, configured !=3D active.**\r\n\r\n2. Servers with wildcard certificates=
 can takeover all traffic for the domain, even if some subdomains would nev=
er be routed to a particular server. To give an extreme example, let's say =
that `www.bank.com`, `promotions.bank.com`, etc. are served by the CDN, but=
 `secure.bank.com` is handled by the bank's own infrastructure. There is no=
thing stopping the CDN with valid certificate for `*.bank.com` from hijacki=
ng the traffic for `secure.bank.com`, and while certificate pinning would p=
revent traffic for `secure.bank.com` from reaching the CDN, it would effect=
ively result in DoS and pretty bad end-user experience.\r\n\r\nOne solution=
 that came up in discussions with @grittygrease and @enygren, was to includ=
e signed DNSSEC response in the `ORIGIN` frame, to prove that the traffic s=
hould be routed to this particular server. This obviously solves only part =
of the problem, since it doesn't mean that traffic from _this particular cl=
ient_ would be routed to that server, but it's much better than servers goi=
ng completely wild."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.=
com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/330#issuecomment-313827663"}}}</script>=

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Consulting the DNS on expanding ORIGIN set? (#330)
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@PiotrSikora - thanks for the input.

WRT global load balancing / CDN balancing -- one of the things that has been discussed is a bit to tell the client whether or not to check DNS; that would allow them to use this, I think.

WRT wildcards -- ORIGIN doesn't currently support wildcarding.

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/piotrsikora" class=3D"user-mention">@Piotr=
Sikora</a> - thanks for the input.</p>
<p>WRT global load balancing / CDN balancing -- one of the things that has =
been discussed is a bit to tell the client whether or not to check DNS; tha=
t would allow them to use this, I think.</p>
<p>WRT wildcards -- ORIGIN doesn't currently support wildcarding.</p>

<p style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&mda=
sh;<br />You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.<=
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ent whether or not to check DNS; that would allow them to use this, I think=
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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:58:07 +0000 (UTC)
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Consulting the DNS on expanding ORIGIN set? (#330)
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Even without supporting wildcard ORIGINs, @PiotrSikora has a valid point that if a server has a wildcard cert it can pull in any hostnames that it wants to.

Telling a client whether or not to check DNS certainly helps for some of these cases (ie, it helps avoid a few operational snafus) but doesn't help against malicious use-cases.

My inclination is still to pull this draft back to the original "limiting origin set and connection reuse" scenario but while leaving placeholders for a subsequent draft that would cover expanding the origin set (ie, with using additional-certs and whatever other mitigators are deemed appropriate).  Otherwise this draft changes the operational model of the web much more substantially than people may realize at first glance.  Any operational shift this significant likely wants to be a first-class discussion rather than being a side-effect of a draft that initially had a much more constrained scope.


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<p>Even without supporting wildcard ORIGINs, <a href=3D"https://github.com/=
piotrsikora" class=3D"user-mention">@PiotrSikora</a> has a valid point that=
 if a server has a wildcard cert it can pull in any hostnames that it wants=
 to.</p>
<p>Telling a client whether or not to check DNS certainly helps for some of=
 these cases (ie, it helps avoid a few operational snafus) but doesn't help=
 against malicious use-cases.</p>
<p>My inclination is still to pull this draft back to the original "limitin=
g origin set and connection reuse" scenario but while leaving placeholders =
for a subsequent draft that would cover expanding the origin set (ie, with =
using additional-certs and whatever other mitigators are deemed appropriate=
).  Otherwise this draft changes the operational model of the web much more=
 substantially than people may realize at first glance.  Any operational sh=
ift this significant likely wants to be a first-class discussion rather tha=
n being a side-effect of a draft that initially had a much more constrained=
 scope.</p>

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sh;<br />You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.<=
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en without supporting wildcard ORIGINs, @PiotrSikora has a valid point that=
 if a server has a wildcard cert it can pull in any hostnames that it wants=
 to.\r\n\r\nTelling a client whether or not to check DNS certainly helps fo=
r some of these cases (ie, it helps avoid a few operational snafus) but doe=
sn't help against malicious use-cases.\r\n\r\nMy inclination is still to pu=
ll this draft back to the original \"limiting origin set and connection reu=
se\" scenario but while leaving placeholders for a subsequent draft that wo=
uld cover expanding the origin set (ie, with using additional-certs and wha=
tever other mitigators are deemed appropriate).  Otherwise this draft chang=
es the operational model of the web much more substantially than people may=
 realize at first glance.  Any operational shift this significant likely wa=
nts to be a first-class discussion rather than being a side-effect of a dra=
ft that initially had a much more constrained scope.\r\n"}],"action":{"name=
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wrt "check DNS" flag - it's still the server (i.e. CDN) that's making this recommendation to the client, right? If so, then I don't think it fixes anything, since CDNs can omit this flag and prevent clients from consulting DNS, justifying this with "we're improving the performance" excuse.

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<p>wrt "check DNS" flag - it's still the server (i.e. CDN) that's making =
this recommendation to the client, right? If so, then I don't think it fi=
xes anything, since CDNs can omit this flag and prevent clients from cons=
ulting DNS, justifying this with "we're improving the performance" excuse=
.</p>

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Let me try to summarize the concern in a different way: having a certificate for a name is not always sufficient basis for that server to be chosen and used.

All these cases reduce down to the same complaint: the client might be talking to an instance that has a certificate for N>1 names and the intent is that only a subset of those names is used.  This might be due to geographical distribution of nodes, contractual arrangements (the CDN is charging more than their competitor today, so they're on backup duty), or any other operational concern.

The problem with all of these is that there is no way to communicate this intent to the client that doesn't ultimately chain back to the certificate.  A certificate that the server instance has.  Relying on the DNS is a fig leaf.  As @PiotrSikora says, even DNSSEC fails because you can't be sure that this is the RRset that would be sent to *this* particular client.

It looks like what you are looking for is a better means of control over your server instances.  The reliance on DNS is a poor substitute for a genuine signal.

Crazy suggestion, would a certificate extension that enabled this functionality make you happier?  As long as the CDN never received a certificate with the extension, it couldn't make these sorts of assertions.  I'm not saying that I think that's a good idea, but I want to explore the boundaries of your problem better.

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<p>Let me try to summarize the concern in a different way: having a certi=
ficate for a name is not always sufficient basis for that server to be ch=
osen and used.</p>
<p>All these cases reduce down to the same complaint: the client might be=
 talking to an instance that has a certificate for N&gt;1 names and the i=
ntent is that only a subset of those names is used.  This might be due to=
 geographical distribution of nodes, contractual arrangements (the CDN is=
 charging more than their competitor today, so they're on backup duty), o=
r any other operational concern.</p>
<p>The problem with all of these is that there is no way to communicate t=
his intent to the client that doesn't ultimately chain back to the certif=
icate.  A certificate that the server instance has.  Relying on the DNS i=
s a fig leaf.  As <a href=3D"https://github.com/piotrsikora" class=3D"use=
r-mention">@PiotrSikora</a> says, even DNSSEC fails because you can't be =
sure that this is the RRset that would be sent to <em>this</em> particula=
r client.</p>
<p>It looks like what you are looking for is a better means of control ov=
er your server instances.  The reliance on DNS is a poor substitute for a=
 genuine signal.</p>
<p>Crazy suggestion, would a certificate extension that enabled this func=
tionality make you happier?  As long as the CDN never received a certific=
ate with the extension, it couldn't make these sorts of assertions.  I'm =
not saying that I think that's a good idea, but I want to explore the bou=
ndaries of your problem better.</p>

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artinthomson in #330: Let me try to summarize the concern in a different =
way: having a certificate for a name is not always sufficient basis for t=
hat server to be chosen and used.\r\n\r\nAll these cases reduce down to t=
he same complaint: the client might be talking to an instance that has a =
certificate for N\u003e1 names and the intent is that only a subset of th=
ose names is used.  This might be due to geographical distribution of nod=
es, contractual arrangements (the CDN is charging more than their competi=
tor today, so they're on backup duty), or any other operational concern.\=
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rtificate.  A certificate that the server instance has.  Relying on the D=
NS is a fig leaf.  As @PiotrSikora says, even DNSSEC fails because you ca=
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r client.\r\n\r\nIt looks like what you are looking for is a better means=
 of control over your server instances.  The reliance on DNS is a poor su=
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te extension that enabled this functionality make you happier?  As long a=
s the CDN never received a certificate with the extension, it couldn't ma=
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mnot approved this pull request.

Looks good to me!



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<p><b>@mnot</b> approved this pull request.</p>

<p>Looks good to me!</p>

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Merged #363.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/363" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/363" data-id="238728947" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#363</a>.</p>

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@mnot Thank you for the review!

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<p><a href="https://github.com/mnot" class="user-mention">@mnot</a> Thank you for the review!</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Geolocation Header (#364)
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One major difference between this and the other CH headers is that this header should only be sent to the first party (or only to hosts which have permission to view geolocation data, so to third parties that got such permissions before).
The use case of using geo info for content adaptation at the edge or origin seems an interesting one.

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<p>One major difference between this and the other CH headers is that this =
header should only be sent to the first party (or only to hosts which have =
permission to view geolocation data, so to third parties that got such perm=
issions before).<br>
The use case of using geo info for content adaptation at the edge or origin=
 seems an interesting one.</p>

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@martinthomson I originally wanted to dismiss this idea (since CDNs could mis-issue certs with the extension anyway, so it doesn't add 2nd factor). However, we chatted a bit about it with @grittygrease yesterday, and we came to conclusion that opt-in certificate extension, along with CT requirement (so that it would be obvious that CDN requested certificate with such extension, even when domain owner didn't opt-in for it) seems like an acceptable solution.

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/martinthomson" class=3D"user-mention">@m=
artinthomson</a> I originally wanted to dismiss this idea (since CDNs cou=
ld mis-issue certs with the extension anyway, so it doesn't add 2nd facto=
r). However, we chatted a bit about it with <a href=3D"https://github.com=
/grittygrease" class=3D"user-mention">@grittygrease</a> yesterday, and we=
 came to conclusion that opt-in certificate extension, along with CT requ=
irement (so that it would be obvious that CDN requested certificate with =
such extension, even when domain owner didn't opt-in for it) seems like a=
n acceptable solution.</p>

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Make optionallity more like ALTSVC, make test less Gollum-like
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366

-- Commit Summary --

  * ORIGIN frame typos

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-httpbis-origin-frame.md (4)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366.patch
https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366.diff

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<p>Make optionallity more like ALTSVC, make test less Gollum-like</p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>ORIGIN frame typos</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366/files#diff-0">draft-ietf-httpbis-origin-frame.md</a>
    (4)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366.patch'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366.diff'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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Merged #366.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/366" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/366" data-id="243236043" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#366</a>.</p>

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thx

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<p>thx</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] update rfc2119 boilerplate (d7c6aa3)
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Please follow https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8174#section-2

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<p>Please follow <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8174#section-2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8174#section-2</a></p>

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> I'm inclined to keep them as is. The CSS spec is CSS2, not CSS values specific, and other names are auto generated -- don't think it's worth overwriting.

I think it's worthwhile to override names when those are clearly ugly because they're auto-generated (for instance, because they include a date that the reader will not care about at all).

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<blockquote>
<p>I'm inclined to keep them as is. The CSS spec is CSS2, not CSS values sp=
ecific, and other names are auto generated -- don't think it's worth overwr=
iting.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think it's worthwhile to override names when those are clearly ugly be=
cause they're auto-generated (for instance, because they include a date tha=
t the reader will not care about at all).</p>

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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] simplify reference anchors (#367)
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You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367

-- Commit Summary --

  * simplify reference anchors

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints.md (14)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367.patch
https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367.diff

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<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>simplify reference anchors</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367/files#diff-0">draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints.md</a>
    (14)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367.patch'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367.diff'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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Thanks Julian!

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<p>Thanks Julian!</p>

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Merged #367.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/367" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/367" data-id="243249538" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#367</a>.</p>

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igrigorik approved this pull request.





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<p><b>@igrigorik</b> approved this pull request.</p>



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>From Lucas:

I naively assumed the ORIGIN frame was very similar to the ALTSVC frame, =
I missed out on the repetition element. I think it would help to improve =
upon diagram in section 2.1, first coin a term for the Origin-Len:ASCII-O=
rigin pair (it is loosely referred to as set, which is easily confused wi=
th Origin Set), for this email I=E2=80=99ll use the term Origin-Entry. Se=
ction 2.1 would be changed to contain two clearly labelled diagrams: one =
shall show the fields comprising an Origin-Entry, the other shall show th=
e ORIGIN frame payload as an OPTIONAL sequence of Origin-Entries, with ca=
rdinality of 0-*. 0 indicates an empty ORIGIN frame, which is implied by =
the text in Appendix B - =E2=80=9Cinform the client that the connection i=
s only to be used for the SNI-based origin, by sending an empty ORIGIN fr=
ame.=E2=80=9D.

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<p>From Lucas:</p>
<p>I naively assumed the ORIGIN frame was very similar to the ALTSVC fram=
e, I missed out on the repetition element. I think it would help to impro=
ve upon diagram in section 2.1, first coin a term for the Origin-Len:ASCI=
I-Origin pair (it is loosely referred to as set, which is easily confused=
 with Origin Set), for this email I=E2=80=99ll use the term Origin-Entry.=
 Section 2.1 would be changed to contain two clearly labelled diagrams: o=
ne shall show the fields comprising an Origin-Entry, the other shall show=
 the ORIGIN frame payload as an OPTIONAL sequence of Origin-Entries, with=
 cardinality of 0-*. 0 indicates an empty ORIGIN frame, which is implied =
by the text in Appendix B - =E2=80=9Cinform the client that the connectio=
n is only to be used for the SNI-based origin, by sending an empty ORIGIN=
 frame.=E2=80=9D.</p>

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>From Lucas:

If my interpretation of the specification is correct, the Origin Set is c=
urrently unbounded. While the size of an individual H2 frame is bounded a=
nd negotiated, the Origin set can seemingly be added to ad nauseam. Even =
in the default size case, for a short ASCII-Origin such as http://dk, if =
might be possible to create an Origin set with ~1500 entries. I like the =
fact that ORIGIN frame extension doesn=E2=80=99t need any negotiation, so=
 perhaps some guidance for client-side implementations would help e.g. be=
 aware of the Origin Set size and be prepared to close the connection if =
you=E2=80=99re getting unhappy.

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<p>From Lucas:</p>
<p>If my interpretation of the specification is correct, the Origin Set i=
s currently unbounded. While the size of an individual H2 frame is bounde=
d and negotiated, the Origin set can seemingly be added to ad nauseam. Ev=
en in the default size case, for a short ASCII-Origin such as <a href=3D"=
http://dk">http://dk</a>, if might be possible to create an Origin set wi=
th ~1500 entries. I like the fact that ORIGIN frame extension doesn=E2=80=
=99t need any negotiation, so perhaps some guidance for client-side imple=
mentations would help e.g. be aware of the Origin Set size and be prepare=
d to close the connection if you=E2=80=99re getting unhappy.</p>

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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] Non-normative processing algorithm (#370)
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=46rom Lucas:

Is this reflective of current ORIGIN frame fields? The terminology seems sl=
ightly askew as each Origin is comprised of two fields and I=E2=80=99m wond=
ering if it got outdated. Using the term Origin-Entry could help here.

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<p>From Lucas:</p>
<p>Is this reflective of current ORIGIN frame fields? The terminology seems=
 slightly askew as each Origin is comprised of two fields and I=E2=80=99m w=
ondering if it got outdated. Using the term Origin-Entry could help here.</=
p>

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In section 2.  "103 Early Hints" the last paragraph describes that 103 can be send multiple time. The given example reads as if a server may correct its previous 103 that is made from a cached resource. So the following 103 are correcting the older ones, they are only adding headers to the previous ones or are they replacing them completely? Maybe sentence clarifying this would be good.

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<p>In section 2.  "103 Early Hints" the last paragraph describes that 103 can be send multiple time. The given example reads as if a server may correct its previous 103 that is made from a cached resource. So the following 103 are correcting the older ones, they are only adding headers to the previous ones or are they replacing them completely? Maybe sentence clarifying this would be good.</p>

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Moving discussion over to Fetch (https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/567), will circle back here if it turns out there's something we should do in Expect-CT specifically. cc @martinthomson 

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<p>Moving discussion over to Fetch (<a href="https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/567" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/567" data-id="244028902" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">whatwg/fetch#567</a>), will circle back here if it turns out there's something we should do in Expect-CT specifically. cc <a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a></p>

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Closed #356.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/356" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/356" data-id="232327868" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#356</a>.</p>

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@estark37, I don't want to create a false impression that there is no issue remaining.  Is your intent to track the issue we discussed in some other way?

As we discussed, I think that the requesting origin for the request is the origin of the response that contained the Expect-CT header field.

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/estark37" class=3D"user-mention">@estark37=
</a>, I don't want to create a false impression that there is no issue rema=
ining.  Is your intent to track the issue we discussed in some other way?</=
p>
<p>As we discussed, I think that the requesting origin for the request is t=
he origin of the response that contained the Expect-CT header field.</p>

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@martinthomson I thought your suggestion was to discuss with Fetch how to handle these requests?

I'm fine with using the Expect-CT origin as the Origin for the preflight, but I'm still not sure that the Expect-CT spec is the right place to say that, as it doesn't make sense for non-browser clients. (I think it belongs better in Fetch.)

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/martinthomson" class=3D"user-mention">@m=
artinthomson</a> I thought your suggestion was to discuss with Fetch how =
to handle these requests?</p>
<p>I'm fine with using the Expect-CT origin as the Origin for the preflig=
ht, but I'm still not sure that the Expect-CT spec is the right place to =
say that, as it doesn't make sense for non-browser clients. (I think it b=
elongs better in Fetch.)</p>

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Reopened #356.

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<p>Reopened <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/356" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/356" data-id="232327868" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#356</a>.</p>

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OK, that sounds good.  My suggestion is to keep this open until we have greater clarity about how this is captured, even if that means closing this with no action because Fetch is covering it.

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<p>OK, that sounds good.  My suggestion is to keep this open until we have greater clarity about how this is captured, even if that means closing this with no action because Fetch is covering it.</p>

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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] Accept-CH-Lifetime privacy concerns (#372)
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Based on https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/QHI=
3sio6--Q/v_zWX1O6AAAJ I have a couple of questions about the impact of `Acc=
ept-CH-Lifetime` as currently defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-httpbis-client-hints-04#section-2.2.2

The main risk, touched upon in the [Security Considerations](https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints-04#section-5) section, is the=
 fact that providers of cross-origin subresources (e.g. images) loaded from=
 pages with `Accept-CH` headers will start receiving fingerprinting-prone i=
nformation about the configuration of a connecting client. Note that it wil=
l expose more information than what was available to these parties in the p=
ast because subresources such as images cannot use client-side logic to acc=
ess information sent in Client Hints. A related issue is that based on the =
sets of headers sent in such subresource requests, the subresource owner mi=
ght be able to identify the referring site even if it sets a Referrer Polic=
y to prevent disclosing its URL or origin. For example, requests from a lar=
ge site which sets `Referrer-Policy: no-referrer; Accept-CH: DPR` will be d=
istinguishable from requests from sites with `Accept-CH: DPR, Viewport-Widt=
h` and from those without client hints. Depending on the chosen set of hint=
s this can in practice uniquely identify the origin visited by the user.

The introduction of `Accept-CH-Lifetime` will extend this problem to all re=
sources on a given origin -- if one page sets the header, then subresource =
requests from all pages in that origin will start carrying hint information=
. This can be undesirable for the user because it can disclose information =
about the visited origin and broadcasts fingerprintable information to all =
parties from which the given origin loads subresources.

It seems like this should be mitigated, possibly by one of the following:
- (Preferably) Not broadcasting client hints on cross-origin subresource lo=
ads.
- Obeying Referrer Policy and omitting hints if the referring page attempts=
 to restrict data which is sent in the `Referer` header. Similarly, hints s=
hould probably also be stripped on HTTPS -> HTTP transitions.

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<p>Based on <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg=
/blink-dev/QHI3sio6--Q/v_zWX1O6AAAJ">https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.o=
rg/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/QHI3sio6--Q/v_zWX1O6AAAJ</a> I have a couple of qu=
estions about the impact of <code>Accept-CH-Lifetime</code> as currently de=
fined in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-client-h=
ints-04#section-2.2.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-clien=
t-hints-04#section-2.2.2</a></p>
<p>The main risk, touched upon in the <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints-04#section-5">Security Considerations</a>=
 section, is the fact that providers of cross-origin subresources (e.g. ima=
ges) loaded from pages with <code>Accept-CH</code> headers will start recei=
ving fingerprinting-prone information about the configuration of a connecti=
ng client. Note that it will expose more information than what was availabl=
e to these parties in the past because subresources such as images cannot u=
se client-side logic to access information sent in Client Hints. A related =
issue is that based on the sets of headers sent in such subresource request=
s, the subresource owner might be able to identify the referring site even =
if it sets a Referrer Policy to prevent disclosing its URL or origin. For e=
xample, requests from a large site which sets <code>Referrer-Policy: no-ref=
errer; Accept-CH: DPR</code> will be distinguishable from requests from sit=
es with <code>Accept-CH: DPR, Viewport-Width</code> and from those without =
client hints. Depending on the chosen set of hints this can in practice uni=
quely identify the origin visited by the user.</p>
<p>The introduction of <code>Accept-CH-Lifetime</code> will extend this pro=
blem to all resources on a given origin -- if one page sets the header, the=
n subresource requests from all pages in that origin will start carrying hi=
nt information. This can be undesirable for the user because it can disclos=
e information about the visited origin and broadcasts fingerprintable infor=
mation to all parties from which the given origin loads subresources.</p>
<p>It seems like this should be mitigated, possibly by one of the following=
:</p>
<ul>
<li>(Preferably) Not broadcasting client hints on cross-origin subresource =
loads.</li>
<li>Obeying Referrer Policy and omitting hints if the referring page attemp=
ts to restrict data which is sent in the <code>Referer</code> header. Simil=
arly, hints should probably also be stripped on HTTPS -&gt; HTTP transition=
s.</li>
</ul>

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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:14:32 +0000 (UTC)
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Accept-CH-Lifetime privacy concerns (#372)
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> The introduction of Accept-CH-Lifetime will extend this problem to all resources on a given origin -- if one page sets the header, then subresource requests from all pages in that origin will start carrying hint information. 

IIUC, this is not correct. If the origin includes `Accept-CH-Lifetime` header, then the user agent is expected to send the client hints for requests to only that origin.

> Similarly, hints should probably also be stripped on HTTPS -> HTTP transitions.

The Chromium implementation (currently underway) processes `Accept-CH-Lifetime` header from only HTTPS origins. So, the client hints sent because the user agent received `Accept-CH-Lifetime` in the past would be sent to only HTTPS origins. Quoting the spec:

> Implementers ought to provide mechanisms and policies to control how
   and when such hints are advertised. 

cc'ing @igrigorik to comment on if any spec changes are needed here to make this more explicit.

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<blockquote>
<p>The introduction of Accept-CH-Lifetime will extend this problem to all r=
esources on a given origin -- if one page sets the header, then subresource=
 requests from all pages in that origin will start carrying hint informatio=
n.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>IIUC, this is not correct. If the origin includes <code>Accept-CH-Lifeti=
me</code> header, then the user agent is expected to send the client hints =
for requests to only that origin.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Similarly, hints should probably also be stripped on HTTPS -&gt; HTTP tr=
ansitions.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The Chromium implementation (currently underway) processes <code>Accept-=
CH-Lifetime</code> header from only HTTPS origins. So, the client hints sen=
t because the user agent received <code>Accept-CH-Lifetime</code> in the pa=
st would be sent to only HTTPS origins. Quoting the spec:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Implementers ought to provide mechanisms and policies to control how<br>
and when such hints are advertised.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>cc'ing <a href=3D"https://github.com/igrigorik" class=3D"user-mention">@=
igrigorik</a> to comment on if any spec changes are needed here to make thi=
s more explicit.</p>

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5fc-7290892c7bb5.png","avatar_image_url":"https://cloud.githubusercontent.c=
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":{"name":"Open in GitHub","url":"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions=
"}},"updates":{"snippets":[{"icon":"PERSON","message":"@tarunban in #372: \=
u003e The introduction of Accept-CH-Lifetime will extend this problem to al=
l resources on a given origin -- if one page sets the header, then subresou=
rce requests from all pages in that origin will start carrying hint informa=
tion. \r\n\r\nIIUC, this is not correct. If the origin includes `Accept-CH-=
Lifetime` header, then the user agent is expected to send the client hints =
for requests to only that origin.\r\n\r\n\u003e Similarly, hints should pro=
bably also be stripped on HTTPS -\u003e HTTP transitions.\r\n\r\nThe Chromi=
um implementation (currently underway) processes `Accept-CH-Lifetime` heade=
r from only HTTPS origins. So, the client hints sent because the user agent=
 received `Accept-CH-Lifetime` in the past would be sent to only HTTPS orig=
ins. Quoting the spec:\r\n\r\n\u003e Implementers ought to provide mechanis=
ms and policies to control how\r\n   and when such hints are advertised. \r=
\n\r\ncc'ing @igrigorik to comment on if any spec changes are needed here t=
o make this more explicit."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://=
github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/372#issuecomment-316434821"}}}</sc=
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> If the origin includes Accept-CH-Lifetime header, then the user agent is expected to send the client hints for requests to only that origin.

Hmm, I'm getting a different impression from the text in the [spec](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints-04#section-2.2.2): 

> if a request is initiated to the same origin before the preference is stale (e.g. as a result of a navigation to the origin, or fetching a subresource from the origin) the client could append the requested header fields (DPR and Viewport-Width in this example) to the request **and any subresource requests initiated as a result of processing a response from same origin**.

If hints are supposed to be sent only on same-origin subresource requests it would address my main concern. In general, it would be great if the current _non-lifetime_ Accept-CH behavior was also limited to same-origin subresources -- I don't think requiring developers who want to use client hints to also leak this information to owners of third-party subresources loaded on their pages is particularly great.

> The Chromium implementation (currently underway) processes Accept-CH-Lifetime header from only HTTPS origins.

What about HTTPS pages which have HTTP subresources? The behavior I currently see for Accept-CH is that the HTTP subresource requests have client hints (but no Referer); I believe you're saying this behavior would change with Accept-CH-Lifetime? If so, this sounds good, though see above re: the broader concern about non-same-origin subresources.

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<blockquote>
<p>If the origin includes Accept-CH-Lifetime header, then the user agent =
is expected to send the client hints for requests to only that origin.</p=
>
</blockquote>
<p>Hmm, I'm getting a different impression from the text in the <a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints-04#section-2=
.2.2">spec</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>if a request is initiated to the same origin before the preference is =
stale (e.g. as a result of a navigation to the origin, or fetching a subr=
esource from the origin) the client could append the requested header fie=
lds (DPR and Viewport-Width in this example) to the request <strong>and a=
ny subresource requests initiated as a result of processing a response fr=
om same origin</strong>.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If hints are supposed to be sent only on same-origin subresource reque=
sts it would address my main concern. In general, it would be great if th=
e current <em>non-lifetime</em> Accept-CH behavior was also limited to sa=
me-origin subresources -- I don't think requiring developers who want to =
use client hints to also leak this information to owners of third-party s=
ubresources loaded on their pages is particularly great.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The Chromium implementation (currently underway) processes Accept-CH-L=
ifetime header from only HTTPS origins.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>What about HTTPS pages which have HTTP subresources? The behavior I cu=
rrently see for Accept-CH is that the HTTP subresource requests have clie=
nt hints (but no Referer); I believe you're saying this behavior would ch=
ange with Accept-CH-Lifetime? If so, this sounds good, though see above r=
e: the broader concern about non-same-origin subresources.</p>

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rturjanc in #372: \u003e If the origin includes Accept-CH-Lifetime header=
, then the user agent is expected to send the client hints for requests t=
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he text in the [spec](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-clie=
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is example) to the request **and any subresource requests initiated as a =
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ess my main concern. In general, it would be great if the current _non-li=
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 leak this information to owners of third-party subresources loaded on th=
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e behavior I currently see for Accept-CH is that the HTTP subresource req=
uests have client hints (but no Referer); I believe you're saying this be=
havior would change with Accept-CH-Lifetime? If so, this sounds good, tho=
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Accept-CH-Lifetime privacy concerns (#372)
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@arturjanc thanks for the great feedback. Let me try to unpack...

Prior to introduction of `Accept-CH-Lifetime` (ACL) =E2=80=94 which is very=
 recent =E2=80=94 there was no mechanism in place for an origin to persist =
a preference for hints across independent requests. As a result, navigation=
 requests did not get any hints and only subrequests of the "opted-in docum=
ent" were eligible. The extra complication here is that the initial set of =
core use cases (image optimization) frequently relies on use of CDN's and t=
hird-party services+origins, which means that prior to ACL there was no way=
 for those origins to enable CH hints, since page origin !=3D resource orig=
in. As a result, the decision was to extend Accept-CH opt-in to all resourc=
es fetched by the page.

Now that we have ACL, it may be possible to revisit this setup. In particul=
ar, if we scope ACL to per-origin, then both the page origin and resource o=
rigin can advertise support separately and these preferences will be persis=
ted across requests. In fact, I suspect that this is what will happen anywa=
y, because for cases like image serving CDNs will advertise support for hin=
ts on their own origins, such that any site relying on their service can be=
nefit by default.

@yoavweiss wdyt?

---

> What about HTTPS pages which have HTTP subresources? The behavior I curre=
ntly see for Accept-CH is that the HTTP subresource requests have client hi=
nts (but no Referer);
> ...
> Obeying Referrer Policy and omitting hints if the referring page attempts=
 to restrict data which is sent in the Referer header. Similarly, hints sho=
uld probably also be stripped on HTTPS -> HTTP transitions.

I think this would naturally fall out of the origin-scoped model? As in, if=
 opt-in is scoped to HTTPS then we wouldn't send hints to HTTP, unless the =
HTTP origin also explicitly opted-in.=20

Re, Referer:  "I have third party resources on my site, which may have hint=
s enabled, and I want to strip those alongside referrers", is that the use =
case? If so, that seems legitimate, but using Referer does feel a little ac=
tion-at-a-distance to me. As in, I wouldn't expect Referrer to control hint=
s? That said, I don't have a better suggestion either. @mikewest wdyt?

> A related issue is that based on the sets of headers sent in such subreso=
urce requests, the subresource owner might be able to identify the referrin=
g site even if it sets a Referrer Policy to prevent disclosing its URL or o=
rigin. For example, requests from a large site which sets Referrer-Policy: =
no-referrer; Accept-CH: DPR will be distinguishable from requests from site=
s with Accept-CH: DPR, Viewport-Width and from those without client hints. =
Depending on the chosen set of hints this can in practice uniquely identify=
 the origin visited by the user.

Good points, we should flag this in the privacy & security section.


--=20
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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/arturjanc" class=3D"user-mention">@arturja=
nc</a> thanks for the great feedback. Let me try to unpack...</p>
<p>Prior to introduction of <code>Accept-CH-Lifetime</code> (ACL) =E2=80=94=
 which is very recent =E2=80=94 there was no mechanism in place for an orig=
in to persist a preference for hints across independent requests. As a resu=
lt, navigation requests did not get any hints and only subrequests of the "=
opted-in document" were eligible. The extra complication here is that the i=
nitial set of core use cases (image optimization) frequently relies on use =
of CDN's and third-party services+origins, which means that prior to ACL th=
ere was no way for those origins to enable CH hints, since page origin !=3D=
 resource origin. As a result, the decision was to extend Accept-CH opt-in =
to all resources fetched by the page.</p>
<p>Now that we have ACL, it may be possible to revisit this setup. In parti=
cular, if we scope ACL to per-origin, then both the page origin and resourc=
e origin can advertise support separately and these preferences will be per=
sisted across requests. In fact, I suspect that this is what will happen an=
yway, because for cases like image serving CDNs will advertise support for =
hints on their own origins, such that any site relying on their service can=
 benefit by default.</p>
<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/yoavweiss" class=3D"user-mention">@yoavwei=
ss</a> wdyt?</p>
<hr>
<blockquote>
<p>What about HTTPS pages which have HTTP subresources? The behavior I curr=
ently see for Accept-CH is that the HTTP subresource requests have client h=
ints (but no Referer);<br>
...<br>
Obeying Referrer Policy and omitting hints if the referring page attempts t=
o restrict data which is sent in the Referer header. Similarly, hints shoul=
d probably also be stripped on HTTPS -&gt; HTTP transitions.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think this would naturally fall out of the origin-scoped model? As in,=
 if opt-in is scoped to HTTPS then we wouldn't send hints to HTTP, unless t=
he HTTP origin also explicitly opted-in.</p>
<p>Re, Referer:  "I have third party resources on my site, which may have h=
ints enabled, and I want to strip those alongside referrers", is that the u=
se case? If so, that seems legitimate, but using Referer does feel a little=
 action-at-a-distance to me. As in, I wouldn't expect Referrer to control h=
ints? That said, I don't have a better suggestion either. <a href=3D"https:=
//github.com/mikewest" class=3D"user-mention">@mikewest</a> wdyt?</p>
<blockquote>
<p>A related issue is that based on the sets of headers sent in such subres=
ource requests, the subresource owner might be able to identify the referri=
ng site even if it sets a Referrer Policy to prevent disclosing its URL or =
origin. For example, requests from a large site which sets Referrer-Policy:=
 no-referrer; Accept-CH: DPR will be distinguishable from requests from sit=
es with Accept-CH: DPR, Viewport-Width and from those without client hints.=
 Depending on the chosen set of hints this can in practice uniquely identif=
y the origin visited by the user.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Good points, we should flag this in the privacy &amp; security section.<=
/p>

<p style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&mda=
sh;<br />You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.<=
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@arturjanc thanks for the great feedback. Let me try to unpack...\r\n\r\nPr=
ior to introduction of `Accept-CH-Lifetime` (ACL) =E2=80=94 which is very r=
ecent =E2=80=94 there was no mechanism in place for an origin to persist a =
preference for hints across independent requests. As a result, navigation r=
equests did not get any hints and only subrequests of the \"opted-in docume=
nt\" were eligible. The extra complication here is that the initial set of =
core use cases (image optimization) frequently relies on use of CDN's and t=
hird-party services+origins, which means that prior to ACL there was no way=
 for those origins to enable CH hints, since page origin !=3D resource orig=
in. As a result, the decision was to extend Accept-CH opt-in to all resourc=
es fetched by the page.\r\n\r\nNow that we have ACL, it may be possible to =
revisit this setup. In particular, if we scope ACL to per-origin, then both=
 the page origin and resource origin can advertise support separately and t=
hese preferences will be persisted across requests. In fact, I suspect that=
 this is what will happen anyway, because for cases like image serving CDNs=
 will advertise support for hints on their own origins, such that any site =
relying on their service can benefit by default.\r\n\r\n@yoavweiss wdyt?\r\=
n\r\n---\r\n\r\n\u003e What about HTTPS pages which have HTTP subresources?=
 The behavior I currently see for Accept-CH is that the HTTP subresource re=
quests have client hints (but no Referer);\r\n\u003e ...\r\n\u003e Obeying =
Referrer Policy and omitting hints if the referring page attempts to restri=
ct data which is sent in the Referer header. Similarly, hints should probab=
ly also be stripped on HTTPS -\u003e HTTP transitions.\r\n\r\nI think this =
would naturally fall out of the origin-scoped model? As in, if opt-in is sc=
oped to HTTPS then we wouldn't send hints to HTTP, unless the HTTP origin a=
lso explicitly opted-in. \r\n\r\nRe, Referer:  \"I have third party resourc=
es on my site, which may have hints enabled, and I want to strip those alon=
gside referrers\", is that the use case? If so, that seems legitimate, but =
using Referer does feel a little action-at-a-distance to me. As in, I would=
n't expect Referrer to control hints? That said, I don't have a better sugg=
estion either. @mikewest wdyt?\r\n\r\n\u003e A related issue is that based =
on the sets of headers sent in such subresource requests, the subresource o=
wner might be able to identify the referring site even if it sets a Referre=
r Policy to prevent disclosing its URL or origin. For example, requests fro=
m a large site which sets Referrer-Policy: no-referrer; Accept-CH: DPR will=
 be distinguishable from requests from sites with Accept-CH: DPR, Viewport-=
Width and from those without client hints. Depending on the chosen set of h=
ints this can in practice uniquely identify the origin visited by the user.=
\r\n\r\nGood points, we should flag this in the privacy \u0026 security sec=
tion.\r\n"}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.com/httpwg=
/http-extensions/issues/372#issuecomment-316586505"}}}</script>=

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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:47:06 +0000 (UTC)
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Accept-CH-Lifetime privacy concerns (#372)
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> Now that we have ACL, it may be possible to revisit this setup. In particular, if we scope ACL to per-origin, then both the page origin and resource origin can advertise support separately and these preferences will be persisted across requests.

This seems like a better model than the status quo because it limits the sending of hints to origins which opt into receiving them. However, it still has the issue of revealing new information to providers of third-party subresources which they can't obtain now. This seems fine to do with opt-in from the first party (which can already get the Viewport-Width, etc via client-side scripts and then provide it to the CDN in the URL), but seems less great if the CDN can decide to always get hints in all requests, because of the passive fingerprinting potential.

What do you think of double-keying the hints on both the first- and third-party? That is, if you set `Accept-CH(-Lifetime)`:
- Requests for same-origin subresources will carry client hints (up until the max-age if you specify the lifetime).
- Requests for non-same-origin subresources will not carry client hints if the other origin doesn't set `Accept-CH-Lifetime`.
- If you load third-party resources from an origin which sets `Accept-CH-Lifetime`, requests from your origin to the third party will carry client hints.
- Requests from other origins (which don't set `Accept-CH`) to the third party will not carry hints.

I realize this reduces the "on by default" benefit you mentioned, but it seems like a relatively simple opt-in for the first party (which is already a necessary condition in `Accept-CH`) and it mitigates the risk of enabling passive tracking of users based on client hints, which I assume will evolve to expose more interesting data. As you mentioned above, this would also make the Referrer discussion moot (and I agree that controlling client hints via Referrer Policy seems awkward).

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<blockquote>
<p>Now that we have ACL, it may be possible to revisit this setup. In parti=
cular, if we scope ACL to per-origin, then both the page origin and resourc=
e origin can advertise support separately and these preferences will be per=
sisted across requests.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This seems like a better model than the status quo because it limits the=
 sending of hints to origins which opt into receiving them. However, it sti=
ll has the issue of revealing new information to providers of third-party s=
ubresources which they can't obtain now. This seems fine to do with opt-in =
from the first party (which can already get the Viewport-Width, etc via cli=
ent-side scripts and then provide it to the CDN in the URL), but seems less=
 great if the CDN can decide to always get hints in all requests, because o=
f the passive fingerprinting potential.</p>
<p>What do you think of double-keying the hints on both the first- and thir=
d-party? That is, if you set <code>Accept-CH(-Lifetime)</code>:</p>
<ul>
<li>Requests for same-origin subresources will carry client hints (up until=
 the max-age if you specify the lifetime).</li>
<li>Requests for non-same-origin subresources will not carry client hints i=
f the other origin doesn't set <code>Accept-CH-Lifetime</code>.</li>
<li>If you load third-party resources from an origin which sets <code>Accep=
t-CH-Lifetime</code>, requests from your origin to the third party will car=
ry client hints.</li>
<li>Requests from other origins (which don't set <code>Accept-CH</code>) to=
 the third party will not carry hints.</li>
</ul>
<p>I realize this reduces the "on by default" benefit you mentioned, but it=
 seems like a relatively simple opt-in for the first party (which is alread=
y a necessary condition in <code>Accept-CH</code>) and it mitigates the ris=
k of enabling passive tracking of users based on client hints, which I assu=
me will evolve to expose more interesting data. As you mentioned above, thi=
s would also make the Referrer discussion moot (and I agree that controllin=
g client hints via Referrer Policy seems awkward).</p>

<p style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&mda=
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"}},"updates":{"snippets":[{"icon":"PERSON","message":"@arturjanc in #372: =
\u003e Now that we have ACL, it may be possible to revisit this setup. In p=
articular, if we scope ACL to per-origin, then both the page origin and res=
ource origin can advertise support separately and these preferences will be=
 persisted across requests.\r\n\r\nThis seems like a better model than the =
status quo because it limits the sending of hints to origins which opt into=
 receiving them. However, it still has the issue of revealing new informati=
on to providers of third-party subresources which they can't obtain now. Th=
is seems fine to do with opt-in from the first party (which can already get=
 the Viewport-Width, etc via client-side scripts and then provide it to the=
 CDN in the URL), but seems less great if the CDN can decide to always get =
hints in all requests, because of the passive fingerprinting potential.\r\n=
\r\nWhat do you think of double-keying the hints on both the first- and thi=
rd-party? That is, if you set `Accept-CH(-Lifetime)`:\r\n- Requests for sam=
e-origin subresources will carry client hints (up until the max-age if you =
specify the lifetime).\r\n- Requests for non-same-origin subresources will =
not carry client hints if the other origin doesn't set `Accept-CH-Lifetime`=
.\r\n- If you load third-party resources from an origin which sets `Accept-=
CH-Lifetime`, requests from your origin to the third party will carry clien=
t hints.\r\n- Requests from other origins (which don't set `Accept-CH`) to =
the third party will not carry hints.\r\n\r\nI realize this reduces the \"o=
n by default\" benefit you mentioned, but it seems like a relatively simple=
 opt-in for the first party (which is already a necessary condition in `Acc=
ept-CH`) and it mitigates the risk of enabling passive tracking of users ba=
sed on client hints, which I assume will evolve to expose more interesting =
data. As you mentioned above, this would also make the Referrer discussion =
moot (and I agree that controlling client hints via Referrer Policy seems a=
wkward)."}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.com/httpwg/=
http-extensions/issues/372#issuecomment-316667172"}}}</script>=

----==_mimepart_59708a2998e4d_20e943fd96f3dbc3c2160ae--


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Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 14:54:09 +0000 (UTC)
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Geolocation Header (#364)
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> One major difference between this and the other CH headers is that this header should only be sent to the first party (or only to hosts which have permission to view geolocation data, so to third parties that got such permissions before).

See https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/372 for discussions related to that. I think this example is highlighting the need for origin-scoped hints, which I think we can do with ACH.

> So on my side, if others think CH is the right approach for this, then for consistency and simplicity I'd be happy to follow that path and start a draft, on top of CH. Happy to hear other opinions :)

I think CH is the right fit. For a hot-off-the-press example, take a look at the [Device Memory i2s on blink-dev](https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/8qlTjzRY9Mc/BYCuqWJXBwAJ).. Assuming we can drop the prompt trigger and path requirements, you can just follow that template.



-- 
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.
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<blockquote>
<p>One major difference between this and the other CH headers is that this =
header should only be sent to the first party (or only to hosts which have =
permission to view geolocation data, so to third parties that got such perm=
issions before).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>See <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/372" cla=
ss=3D"issue-link js-issue-link" data-url=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-=
extensions/issues/372" data-id=3D"244087146" data-error-text=3D"Failed to l=
oad issue title" data-permission-text=3D"Issue title is private">#372</a> f=
or discussions related to that. I think this example is highlighting the ne=
ed for origin-scoped hints, which I think we can do with ACH.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>So on my side, if others think CH is the right approach for this, then f=
or consistency and simplicity I'd be happy to follow that path and start a =
draft, on top of CH. Happy to hear other opinions :)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think CH is the right fit. For a hot-off-the-press example, take a loo=
k at the <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/bl=
ink-dev/8qlTjzRY9Mc/BYCuqWJXBwAJ">Device Memory i2s on blink-dev</a>.. Assu=
ming we can drop the prompt trigger and path requirements, you can just fol=
low that template.</p>

<p style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;">&mda=
sh;<br />You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.<=
br />Reply to this email directly, <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/htt=
p-extensions/issues/364#issuecomment-317023050">view it on GitHub</a>, or <=
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"}},"updates":{"snippets":[{"icon":"PERSON","message":"@igrigorik in #364: =
\u003e One major difference between this and the other CH headers is that t=
his header should only be sent to the first party (or only to hosts which h=
ave permission to view geolocation data, so to third parties that got such =
permissions before).\r\n\r\nSee https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/i=
ssues/372 for discussions related to that. I think this example is highligh=
ting the need for origin-scoped hints, which I think we can do with ACH.\r\=
n\r\n\u003e So on my side, if others think CH is the right approach for thi=
s, then for consistency and simplicity I'd be happy to follow that path and=
 start a draft, on top of CH. Happy to hear other opinions :)\r\n\r\nI thin=
k CH is the right fit. For a hot-off-the-press example, take a look at the =
[Device Memory i2s on blink-dev](https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/f=
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rompt trigger and path requirements, you can just follow that template.\r\n=
\r\n"}],"action":{"name":"View Issue","url":"https://github.com/httpwg/http=
-extensions/issues/364#issuecomment-317023050"}}}</script>=

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Address client-hints-04 feedback (#361)
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@igrigorik pushed 1 commit.

b742630  fix Key reference in appendix


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<p><a href="https://github.com/igrigorik" class="user-mention">@igrigorik</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/b742630" class="commit-link">b742630</a>  fix Key reference in appendix</li>
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Merged #361.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/361" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/361" data-id="238667353" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#361</a>.</p>

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@reschke merging. If you have any followup feedback, we can open a new issue.

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<p><a href="https://github.com/reschke" class="user-mention">@reschke</a> merging. If you have any followup feedback, we can open a new issue.</p>

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Closed #359.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/359" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/359" data-id="237058470" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#359</a>.</p>

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Resolved via https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/361.

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<p>Resolved via <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/361" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/361" data-id="238667353" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#361</a>.</p>

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Closed #360.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/360" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/360" data-id="237058670" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#360</a>.</p>

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Resolved via https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/361.

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<p>Resolved via <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/361" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/361" data-id="238667353" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#361</a>.</p>

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Would double-keying have material effect on this though? Yes, implementing it this way reduces passive fingerprinting, but only for the very first visit. Nothing prevents every 3P origin from advertising a blanket opt-in policy (in fact, I expect that's exactly how image CDN's will implement it), which will result in same exposure for any repeat visit. Also, as a side effect, double-keying would expose first vs repeat visit bit?

I'm not ruling it out, but it's not clear to me that it would be a big win in this context?

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<p>Would double-keying have material effect on this though? Yes, implemen=
ting it this way reduces passive fingerprinting, but only for the very fi=
rst visit. Nothing prevents every 3P origin from advertising a blanket op=
t-in policy (in fact, I expect that's exactly how image CDN's will implem=
ent it), which will result in same exposure for any repeat visit. Also, a=
s a side effect, double-keying would expose first vs repeat visit bit?</p=
>
<p>I'm not ruling it out, but it's not clear to me that it would be a big=
 win in this context?</p>

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grigorik in #372: Would double-keying have material effect on this though=
? Yes, implementing it this way reduces passive fingerprinting, but only =
for the very first visit. Nothing prevents every 3P origin from advertisi=
ng a blanket opt-in policy (in fact, I expect that's exactly how image CD=
N's will implement it), which will result in same exposure for any repeat=
 visit. Also, as a side effect, double-keying would expose first vs repea=
t visit bit?\r\n\r\nI'm not ruling it out, but it's not clear to me that =
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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] Scope Accept-CH opt-in to same origin (#373)
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WIP, based on discussion in #372.
You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:

  https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373

-- Commit Summary --

  * scope Accept-CH opt-in to same-origin
  * rework security considerations

-- File Changes --

    M draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints.md (16)

-- Patch Links --

https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373.patch
https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373.diff

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<p>WIP, based on discussion in <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/372" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/372" data-id="244087146" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#372</a>.</p>

<hr>

<h4>You can view, comment on, or merge this pull request online at:</h4>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373</a></p>

<h4>Commit Summary</h4>
<ul>
  <li>scope Accept-CH opt-in to same-origin</li>
  <li>rework security considerations</li>
</ul>

<h4>File Changes</h4>
<ul>
  <li>
    <strong>M</strong>
    <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373/files#diff-0">draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints.md</a>
    (16)
  </li>
</ul>

<h4>Patch Links:</h4>
<ul>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373.patch'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373.patch</a></li>
  <li><a href='https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373.diff'>https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373.diff</a></li>
</ul>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Accept-CH-Lifetime privacy concerns (#372)
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@arturjanc started a branch @ https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373 - ptal.

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<p><a href="https://github.com/arturjanc" class="user-mention">@arturjanc</a> started a branch @ <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/373" data-id="244720899" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#373</a> - ptal.</p>

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arturjanc commented on this pull request.



> @@ -257,11 +257,13 @@ The Content-DPR response header field indicates to the client that the server ha
 
 # Security Considerations
 
-The request header fields defined in this specification expose information that is already available to Web applications in the browser runtime itself (e.g., using JavaScript and CSS). For example, the application can obtain viewport width, image display width, and device pixel ratio via JavaScript, or through the use of CSS media queries and unique resource URLs even if JavaScript is disabled. However, servers that gather this information through such mechanisms are typically observable (e.g., you can see that they're using JavaScript to gather it), whereas servers' use of the header fields introduced by this specification is not observable. Section 2.1 discusses potential mitigations.
+The request header fields defined in this specification, and those that extend it, expose information about the user's environment to enable proactive content negotiation. Such information may reveal new information about the user and implementers ought to provide policies and mechanisms to control how and when such hints are advertised.

I'm worried about this being a little vague. It seems that there would be a benefit to specifying the "policies and mechanisms" mentioned in this para because they might be crucial to ensuring the privacy properties of a given implementation.

>  
-For example, sending Client Hints on all requests can make information about the user's environment available to origins that otherwise did not have access to this data, which may or may not be the desired outcome - e.g. this may enable an image optimization service to deliver a tailored asset, and it may reveal same information about the user to other origins that may not have had access to it before. Similarly, sending highly granular data, such as image and viewport width may help identify users across multiple requests. Restricting such field values to an enumerated range, where the user agent advertises a threshold value that is close but is not an exact representation of the current value, can help mitigate the risk of such fingerprinting.
+The hint request headers ought not to provide new information that is otherwise not available to the application via HTML, CSS, or JavaScript. For example, this specification defines Viewport-Width, Width, and DPR header fields, all of which can be obtained via JavaScript, or through the use of CSS media queries and unique resource URLs even if JavaScript is disabled.

I would make this stronger:
1. Hints shouldn't provide information that isn't available via the usual channels.
2. Hints sent for subresource requests shouldn't carry information not available to the provider of the subresource unless the first-party opts into sending hints (note that this, combined with the same-origin restriction, would likely suggest some form of double-keying)

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<p><b>@arturjanc</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373#discussion_r128898626">draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -257,11 +257,13 @@ The Content-DPR response header field indicates to the client that the server ha
 
 # Security Considerations
 
-The request header fields defined in this specification expose information that is already available to Web applications in the browser runtime itself (e.g., using JavaScript and CSS). For example, the application can obtain viewport width, image display width, and device pixel ratio via JavaScript, or through the use of CSS media queries and unique resource URLs even if JavaScript is disabled. However, servers that gather this information through such mechanisms are typically observable (e.g., you can see that they&#39;re using JavaScript to gather it), whereas servers&#39; use of the header fields introduced by this specification is not observable. Section 2.1 discusses potential mitigations.
+The request header fields defined in this specification, and those that extend it, expose information about the user&#39;s environment to enable proactive content negotiation. Such information may reveal new information about the user and implementers ought to provide policies and mechanisms to control how and when such hints are advertised.
</pre>
<p>I'm worried about this being a little vague. It seems that there would be a benefit to specifying the "policies and mechanisms" mentioned in this para because they might be crucial to ensuring the privacy properties of a given implementation.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373#discussion_r128898722">draft-ietf-httpbis-client-hints.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt;  
-For example, sending Client Hints on all requests can make information about the user&#39;s environment available to origins that otherwise did not have access to this data, which may or may not be the desired outcome - e.g. this may enable an image optimization service to deliver a tailored asset, and it may reveal same information about the user to other origins that may not have had access to it before. Similarly, sending highly granular data, such as image and viewport width may help identify users across multiple requests. Restricting such field values to an enumerated range, where the user agent advertises a threshold value that is close but is not an exact representation of the current value, can help mitigate the risk of such fingerprinting.
+The hint request headers ought not to provide new information that is otherwise not available to the application via HTML, CSS, or JavaScript. For example, this specification defines Viewport-Width, Width, and DPR header fields, all of which can be obtained via JavaScript, or through the use of CSS media queries and unique resource URLs even if JavaScript is disabled.
</pre>
<p>I would make this stronger:</p>
<ol>
<li>Hints shouldn't provide information that isn't available via the usual channels.</li>
<li>Hints sent for subresource requests shouldn't carry information not available to the provider of the subresource unless the first-party opts into sending hints (note that this, combined with the same-origin restriction, would likely suggest some form of double-keying)</li>
</ol>

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Re: double-keying, the point is that if you're visiting a first party _without_ Accept-CH then the browser wouldn't send client hints to a CDN even if it sets ACL. Essentially, if you have a first party which wants to use client hints they can opt into them and then their non-same-origin subresources can gets hints if their providers also set ACL (which is fine because the first party could manually pass the hints in the URLs anyway). This prevents CDNs and other origins from which subresources are loaded from getting hints during the user's visit to non-cooperating sites, but should still offer the benefits you're looking for in cases where both parties opt in.

I commented on https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373 -- it looks good to me in general, modulo the broader double-keying issue (which I believe is important).

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<p>Re: double-keying, the point is that if you're visiting a first party =
<em>without</em> Accept-CH then the browser wouldn't send client hints to=
 a CDN even if it sets ACL. Essentially, if you have a first party which =
wants to use client hints they can opt into them and then their non-same-=
origin subresources can gets hints if their providers also set ACL (which=
 is fine because the first party could manually pass the hints in the URL=
s anyway). This prevents CDNs and other origins from which subresources a=
re loaded from getting hints during the user's visit to non-cooperating s=
ites, but should still offer the benefits you're looking for in cases whe=
re both parties opt in.</p>
<p>I commented on <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pu=
ll/373" class=3D"issue-link js-issue-link" data-url=3D"https://github.com=
/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/373" data-id=3D"244720899" data-error-text=
=3D"Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text=3D"Issue title is pr=
ivate">#373</a> -- it looks good to me in general, modulo the broader dou=
ble-keying issue (which I believe is important).</p>

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y which wants to use client hints they can opt into them and then their n=
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L (which is fine because the first party could manually pass the hints in=
 the URLs anyway). This prevents CDNs and other origins from which subres=
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rating sites, but should still offer the benefits you're looking for in c=
ases where both parties opt in.\r\n\r\nI commented on https://github.com/=
httpwg/http-extensions/pull/373 -- it looks good to me in general, modulo=
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Artur: makes sense, thanks. 

@yoavweiss @tarunban curious to hear your thoughts on double-keying. Any implementation gotchas here that we should think through?

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<p>Artur: makes sense, thanks.</p>
<p><a href="https://github.com/yoavweiss" class="user-mention">@yoavweiss</a> <a href="https://github.com/tarunban" class="user-mention">@tarunban</a> curious to hear your thoughts on double-keying. Any implementation gotchas here that we should think through?</p>

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No implementation gotchas wrt double-keying.

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<p>No implementation gotchas wrt double-keying.</p>

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Closed #268.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/268" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/268" data-id="190039700" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#268</a>.</p>

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Discussed in Prague; absent implementer activity and a concrete proposal, closing.

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<p>Discussed in Prague; absent implementer activity and a concrete proposal, closing.</p>

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@igrigorik pushed 2 commits.

751cc62  extensible list of hints
4e0f1d6  double-keying and secure contexts


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<p><a href="https://github.com/igrigorik" class="user-mention">@igrigorik</a> pushed 2 commits.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/751cc62" class="commit-link">751cc62</a>  extensible list of hints</li>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/4e0f1d6" class="commit-link">4e0f1d6</a>  double-keying and secure contexts</li>
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@arturjanc thanks for the review. Took another run, with a few large updates:

- Accept-CH and Accept-CH-Lifetime should be processed for responses originating from potentially trustworthy origins (i.e. HTTPS-only)
- Accept-CH-Lifetime preference should be double-keyed, per discussion in #372.
- Consolidated security guidance in one section + tried to rewrite that in light of above updates.

I couldn't find any good existing spec examples on double-keying, so would appreciate any guidance on how to explain it here well. 

@mnot ptal as well, as this is a substantive update.

/cc @tarunban @yoavweiss

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<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/arturjanc" class=3D"user-mention">@arturja=
nc</a> thanks for the review. Took another run, with a few large updates:</=
p>
<ul>
<li>Accept-CH and Accept-CH-Lifetime should be processed for responses orig=
inating from potentially trustworthy origins (i.e. HTTPS-only)</li>
<li>Accept-CH-Lifetime preference should be double-keyed, per discussion in=
 <a href=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/372" class=3D"=
issue-link js-issue-link" data-url=3D"https://github.com/httpwg/http-extens=
ions/issues/372" data-id=3D"244087146" data-error-text=3D"Failed to load is=
sue title" data-permission-text=3D"Issue title is private">#372</a>.</li>
<li>Consolidated security guidance in one section + tried to rewrite that i=
n light of above updates.</li>
</ul>
<p>I couldn't find any good existing spec examples on double-keying, so wou=
ld appreciate any guidance on how to explain it here well.</p>
<p><a href=3D"https://github.com/mnot" class=3D"user-mention">@mnot</a> pta=
l as well, as this is a substantive update.</p>
<p>/cc <a href=3D"https://github.com/tarunban" class=3D"user-mention">@taru=
nban</a> <a href=3D"https://github.com/yoavweiss" class=3D"user-mention">@y=
oavweiss</a></p>

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@arturjanc thanks for the review. Took another run, with a few large update=
s:\r\n\r\n- Accept-CH and Accept-CH-Lifetime should be processed for respon=
ses originating from potentially trustworthy origins (i.e. HTTPS-only)\r\n-=
 Accept-CH-Lifetime preference should be double-keyed, per discussion in #3=
72.\r\n- Consolidated security guidance in one section + tried to rewrite t=
hat in light of above updates.\r\n\r\nI couldn't find any good existing spe=
c examples on double-keying, so would appreciate any guidance on how to exp=
lain it here well. \r\n\r\n@mnot ptal as well, as this is a substantive upd=
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Subject: [httpwg/http-extensions] Early Hints and Caching Intermediaries (#374)
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The proposal for the _103 Early Hints_ response contains a few examples ref=
erencing (probably caching) intermediaries. For example, to trigger a h2 se=
rver-push when an origin sends a 103 carrying `Link` headers. However, ther=
e is no explicit definition on what a cache or proxy server may or may not =
do with 103 responses.

By definition, the informational response cannot have any own meta data:

_"A client MUST NOT interpret the 103 (Early Hints) response header fields =
as if they applied to the informational response itself"._

Obviously, 103 is not among the status codes cacheable by default defined i=
n [RFC7231 6.1](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.1). Furthermo=
re the response cannot contain an entity body and it must be considered an =
intermediate response as the final response is still to come. I assume all =
that forbids storing the 103 in a cache.

Considering the objective to speed up Web site delivery, I would like to di=
scuss the idea of adding a mechanism that would allow an intermediary cache=
 to store data from the 103 response.

In a CDN-like setup an edge-server first receives an HTTP request and forwa=
rds it to the origin. Let's say the final answer took a long time, was priv=
ate and could not be stored in the cache. However, a 103 intermediate respo=
nse was received in the mean time and forwarded to the client. For subseque=
nt requests to the same URL (according to the cache key calculation=E2=80=
=A6) the edge cache could send the _cached_ 103 downstream to the client wh=
ile the original request is sent upstream to the origin _at the same time_.=
 I think this could be a very effective way to use waiting time.

A similar situation was proposed at the end of section 2, where an _"interm=
ediary generates a 103 (Early Hints) response based on the header fields of=
 a stale-cached=C2=A0response"_. However, this can only apply to cacheable =
content. But HTML documents are most often private.

To avoid "guessing" in intermediaries, we could define a special Cache Cont=
rol header field accompanying the 103 status, such as `Early-Hint-Control`.=
 An origin could then define a 103 to be cacheable in a proxy server or cac=
he. For subsequent requests the stored 103 could be sent downstream regardl=
ess of whether the final response is public or private.

The header field could follow the `Cache-Control` semantics. The `public` a=
nd `max-age=3DN` directives seem appropriate. A proxy server would have to =
store the Early Hint information apart from regular responses (e.g. 200) to=
 not confuse it with a final response. When the field `Early-Hint-Control: =
public` is not present, the 103 response should not be stored.

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<p>The proposal for the <em>103 Early Hints</em> response contains a few ex=
amples referencing (probably caching) intermediaries. For example, to trigg=
er a h2 server-push when an origin sends a 103 carrying <code>Link</code> h=
eaders. However, there is no explicit definition on what a cache or proxy s=
erver may or may not do with 103 responses.</p>
<p>By definition, the informational response cannot have any own meta data:=
</p>
<p><em>"A client MUST NOT interpret the 103 (Early Hints) response header f=
ields as if they applied to the informational response itself".</em></p>
<p>Obviously, 103 is not among the status codes cacheable by default define=
d in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.1">RFC7231 6.=
1</a>. Furthermore the response cannot contain an entity body and it must b=
e considered an intermediate response as the final response is still to com=
e. I assume all that forbids storing the 103 in a cache.</p>
<p>Considering the objective to speed up Web site delivery, I would like to=
 discuss the idea of adding a mechanism that would allow an intermediary ca=
che to store data from the 103 response.</p>
<p>In a CDN-like setup an edge-server first receives an HTTP request and fo=
rwards it to the origin. Let's say the final answer took a long time, was p=
rivate and could not be stored in the cache. However, a 103 intermediate re=
sponse was received in the mean time and forwarded to the client. For subse=
quent requests to the same URL (according to the cache key calculation=E2=
=80=A6) the edge cache could send the <em>cached</em> 103 downstream to the=
 client while the original request is sent upstream to the origin <em>at th=
e same time</em>. I think this could be a very effective way to use waiting=
 time.</p>
<p>A similar situation was proposed at the end of section 2, where an <em>"=
intermediary generates a 103 (Early Hints) response based on the header fie=
lds of a stale-cached=C2=A0response"</em>. However, this can only apply to =
cacheable content. But HTML documents are most often private.</p>
<p>To avoid "guessing" in intermediaries, we could define a special Cache C=
ontrol header field accompanying the 103 status, such as <code>Early-Hint-C=
ontrol</code>. An origin could then define a 103 to be cacheable in a proxy=
 server or cache. For subsequent requests the stored 103 could be sent down=
stream regardless of whether the final response is public or private.</p>
<p>The header field could follow the <code>Cache-Control</code> semantics. =
The <code>public</code> and <code>max-age=3DN</code> directives seem approp=
riate. A proxy server would have to store the Early Hint information apart =
from regular responses (e.g. 200) to not confuse it with a final response. =
When the field <code>Early-Hint-Control: public</code> is not present, the =
103 response should not be stored.</p>

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Please review proposed changes in latest commit.

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<p>Please review proposed changes in latest commit.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] ORIGIN and Server Push (#355)
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Sounds like there's agreement on #1; closing with no action.

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<p>Sounds like there's agreement on <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/1" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/1" data-id="36346191" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#1</a>; closing with no action.</p>

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Closed #355.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/355" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/355" data-id="232157956" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#355</a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Repetition of Fields (#368)
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Closed #368.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/368" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/368" data-id="243698613" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#368</a>.</p>

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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 04:13:19 +0000 (UTC)
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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Non-normative processing algorithm (#370)
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Closed #370 via 86d32e48f5738233ceb0f03994ad7e10d35703b8.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/370" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/370" data-id="243698956" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#370</a> via <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/86d32e48f5738233ceb0f03994ad7e10d35703b8" class="commit-link"><tt>86d32e4</tt></a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] ORIGIN and server authority (#349)
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Closed #349 via cab1cc50ac7a12644555b34a864ac0ad8124fef3.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/349" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/349" data-id="230588489" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#349</a> via <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/cab1cc50ac7a12644555b34a864ac0ad8124fef3" class="commit-link"><tt>cab1cc5</tt></a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Expectations of Origin Set Size (#369)
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Closed #369 via 8b3b56bd17dccec24386a1916f6e7975b0bc3da3.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/369" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/369" data-id="243698823" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#369</a> via <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/8b3b56bd17dccec24386a1916f6e7975b0bc3da3" class="commit-link"><tt>8b3b56b</tt></a>.</p>

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Are you going to take another go at this?

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<p>Are you going to take another go at this?</p>

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Sorry, I let this one drop because I missed your suggest, which is good.

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<p>Sorry, I let this one drop because I missed your suggest, which is good.</p>

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@martinthomson pushed 1 commit.

b6c50a9  Use the actual reference


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<p><a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/b6c50a9" class="commit-link">b6c50a9</a>  Use the actual reference</li>
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mnot commented on this pull request.



> @@ -144,12 +144,12 @@ See {{algo}} for an illustrative algorithm for processing ORIGIN frames.
 The set of origins (as per {{!RFC6454}}) that a given connection might be used for is known in this
 specification as the Origin Set.
 
-By default, a connection's Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received and
-successfully processed by a client, the connection's Origin Set is defined to contain a single
-origin, composed from:
+By default, a connections's Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received

connections's?

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<p><b>@mnot</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/348#discussion_r130273577">draft-ietf-httpbis-origin-frame.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -144,12 +144,12 @@ See {{algo}} for an illustrative algorithm for processing ORIGIN frames.
 The set of origins (as per {{!RFC6454}}) that a given connection might be used for is known in this
 specification as the Origin Set.
 
-By default, a connection&#39;s Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received and
-successfully processed by a client, the connection&#39;s Origin Set is defined to contain a single
-origin, composed from:
+By default, a connections&#39;s Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received
</pre>
<p>connections's?</p>

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martinthomson commented on this pull request.



> @@ -144,12 +144,12 @@ See {{algo}} for an illustrative algorithm for processing ORIGIN frames.
 The set of origins (as per {{!RFC6454}}) that a given connection might be used for is known in this
 specification as the Origin Set.
 
-By default, a connection's Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received and
-successfully processed by a client, the connection's Origin Set is defined to contain a single
-origin, composed from:
+By default, a connections's Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received

Your text, not mine, but I'll fix it.

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<p><b>@martinthomson</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/348#discussion_r130274444">draft-ietf-httpbis-origin-frame.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -144,12 +144,12 @@ See {{algo}} for an illustrative algorithm for processing ORIGIN frames.
 The set of origins (as per {{!RFC6454}}) that a given connection might be used for is known in this
 specification as the Origin Set.
 
-By default, a connection&#39;s Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received and
-successfully processed by a client, the connection&#39;s Origin Set is defined to contain a single
-origin, composed from:
+By default, a connections&#39;s Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received
</pre>
<p>Your text, not mine, but I'll fix it.</p>

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@martinthomson pushed 1 commit.

73c9519  connections's


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<p><a href="https://github.com/martinthomson" class="user-mention">@martinthomson</a> pushed 1 commit.</p>

<ul>
  <li><a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/commit/73c9519" class="commit-link">73c9519</a>  connections&#39;s</li>
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martinthomson commented on this pull request.



> @@ -144,12 +144,12 @@ See {{algo}} for an illustrative algorithm for processing ORIGIN frames.
 The set of origins (as per {{!RFC6454}}) that a given connection might be used for is known in this
 specification as the Origin Set.
 
-By default, a connection's Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received and
-successfully processed by a client, the connection's Origin Set is defined to contain a single
-origin, composed from:
+By default, a connections's Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received

OK, it's mine apparently

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<p><b>@martinthomson</b> commented on this pull request.</p>

<hr>

<p>In <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/348#discussion_r130274517">draft-ietf-httpbis-origin-frame.md</a>:</p>
<pre style='color:#555'>&gt; @@ -144,12 +144,12 @@ See {{algo}} for an illustrative algorithm for processing ORIGIN frames.
 The set of origins (as per {{!RFC6454}}) that a given connection might be used for is known in this
 specification as the Origin Set.
 
-By default, a connection&#39;s Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received and
-successfully processed by a client, the connection&#39;s Origin Set is defined to contain a single
-origin, composed from:
+By default, a connections&#39;s Origin Set is uninitialised. When an ORIGIN frame is first received
</pre>
<p>OK, it's mine apparently</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Explain interactions with Alt-Svc (#348)
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Merged #348.

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<p>Merged <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/pull/348" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/348" data-id="230587884" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#348</a>.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Explain interactions with Alt-Svc (#348)
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Thanks!

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<p>Thanks!</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Origin set definition (and port interaction with Alt-Svc) (#331)
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That worked out well - thx mt.

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<p>That worked out well - thx mt.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Origin set definition (and port interaction with Alt-Svc) (#331)
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Closed #331.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/331" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/331" data-id="223504720" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#331</a>.</p>

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The early hints document has completed both WG and IETF last call so it should not be re-opened for new features.

It sounds like you're suggesting new work - and httpbis is open to taking on new work. You should suggest that, even better with a draft, on the mailing list.

Thanks.


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<p>The early hints document has completed both WG and IETF last call so it =
should not be re-opened for new features.</p>
<p>It sounds like you're suggesting new work - and httpbis is open to takin=
g on new work. You should suggest that, even better with a draft, on the ma=
iling list.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>

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Closed #374.

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<p>Closed <a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/374" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http-extensions/issues/374" data-id="246587251" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">#374</a>.</p>

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I see the associated suggestions in the Security Considerations, but I thought the discussion on the list led toward putting a "MAY skip, but SHOULD use something else instead"?  Even if the concrete suggestions of what the "something else" could be still live in Security Considerations....

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<p>I see the associated suggestions in the Security Considerations, but I=
 thought the discussion on the list led toward putting a "MAY skip, but S=
HOULD use something else instead"?  Even if the concrete suggestions of w=
hat the "something else" could be still live in Security Considerations..=
..</p>

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I don't see how I can put "SHOULD use something else" in an RFC with a straight face. If someone can suggest appropriate wording here, I'd be ever so grateful. 

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<p>I don't see how I can put "SHOULD use something else" in an RFC with a straight face. If someone can suggest appropriate wording here, I'd be ever so grateful.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] Consulting the DNS on expanding ORIGIN set? (#330)
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On the thread, "Clients opting not to check DNS SHOULD employ some alternative means to increase confidence that the certificate is legitimate, such as Certificate Transparency or revocation checks" got +1s from Ryan and @enygren.  Since you have a mention elsewhere, you could adapt that to "such as those discussed in Section 4" reasonably enough.

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<p>On the thread, "Clients opting not to check DNS SHOULD employ some alt=
ernative means to increase confidence that the certificate is legitimate,=
 such as Certificate Transparency or revocation checks" got +1s from Ryan=
 and <a href=3D"https://github.com/enygren" class=3D"user-mention">@enygr=
en</a>.  Since you have a mention elsewhere, you could adapt that to "suc=
h as those discussed in Section 4" reasonably enough.</p>

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Hmm. I suspect a requirement that's so vague won't get through IESG, but I guess we can try it.

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<p>Hmm. I suspect a requirement that's so vague won't get through IESG, but I guess we can try it.</p>

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Subject: Re: [httpwg/http-extensions] multiple 103s are cumulating or overwriting headers? (#371)
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Also, this is a general problem with the HTTP caching model, not specific to 103. See:
  https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/29

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<p>Also, this is a general problem with the HTTP caching model, not specific to 103. See:<br>
<a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/29" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/29" data-id="238710045" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">httpwg/http11bis#29</a></p>

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Also, this is a general problem with the HTTP caching model, not specific to 103. See:
httpwg/http11bis#29

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<p>Also, this is a general problem with the HTTP caching model, not specific to 103. See:<br>
<a href="https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/29" class="issue-link js-issue-link" data-url="https://github.com/httpwg/http11bis/issues/29" data-id="238710045" data-error-text="Failed to load issue title" data-permission-text="Issue title is private">httpwg/http11bis#29</a></p>

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