From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Tue Sep 21 15:42:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id E6C643A69B1; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Secretariat To: IETF Announcement list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100921224245.E6C643A69B1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org, zongning@huawei.com Subject: [httpstreaming] New Non-WG Mailing List: httpstreaming -- Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:42:46 -0000 A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. List address: httpstreaming@ietf.org Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/ To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming Description: This list is for discussion related to the possibility to standardize the network based HTTP Streaming protocol, which offers more efficient transport and better network capability for real time streaming media and allows interoperability with other streaming techniques and existing Progressive dowloaded based HTTP streaming implementation. Standardization related to this work is carried out joint by IETF Hybi Working Group and W3C HTML Working Group. Overlapping work and efforts will be contributed to and synchronized with these other relevant groups. For additional information, please contact the list administrators. From sunseawq@huawei.com Tue Sep 21 16:58:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223913A6A83 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:58:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.92 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HR3d1ZVAz9wi for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001AF3A687D for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L940013NFY31P@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 07:58:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9400I2RFY3AL@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 07:58:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from C863D63E94E7457 ([115.173.9.96]) by szxml02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L94006JXFY2CK@szxml02-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2010 07:58:51 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 07:58:53 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <000601cb59e8$f27af420$ff5afea9@C863D63E94E7457> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_j1FmXvRfboVEvqtMdfRDbQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [httpstreaming] Test Message X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:58:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_j1FmXvRfboVEvqtMdfRDbQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This is a test message to verify that this list is functioning properly. I will send an introductory note at the end of this week. Regards! -Qin --Boundary_(ID_j1FmXvRfboVEvqtMdfRDbQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
This is a test message to verify that this list is functioning properly.  I will send an introductory note at the end of this week.
 
Regards!
-Qin
--Boundary_(ID_j1FmXvRfboVEvqtMdfRDbQ)-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Fri Sep 24 20:56:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0844A3A68BB; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.903 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.854, BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ikt21VlZRjc; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga05-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D72603A6886; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 20:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9A009RJAY2GO@szxga05-in.huawei.com>; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:56:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9A00BWDAY1CE@szxga05-in.huawei.com>; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:56:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9A001HTAY1A3@szxml04-in.huawei.com>; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:56:25 +0800 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 11:56:24 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <02ed01cb5c65$a003d890$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_yssMswj13iWO0rUw1Lckkg)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <000601cb59e8$f27af420$ff5afea9@C863D63E94E7457> Cc: dispatch@ietf.org Subject: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 03:56:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_yssMswj13iWO0rUw1Lckkg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, folks: Glad to see this discussion list has been created with the support of all of you. Summarized what we discussed in the DISPATCH mailing list on HTTP Streaming, couples of things were well discussed: 1. Does this work worth being done? Most of people speaked up on the list answer Yes since HTTP streaming is becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet Traffic today has been possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct Download. 2. Is there any existing related work ongoing in IETF and other SDO? This questions haven't been explicitly discussed. But I think it is necessary to bring out on the table since we need more input from these existing work and coordination between different group on the same topic is requried. So,Yes, we have lots of related work listed as follows: (a).IETF: HTTP Streaming Problem Statement discuss the issues when delivering high quality contents to browser users. The related draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-00 Apples' HTTP live streaming: well known for quite some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes use of a M3U playlist file which serves as manifest and each media file must be formatted as an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio elementary stream. Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly proprietary. However, it works with common media players. The related work is avaiable at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 (b). IETF: Websocket protocol Focus on browsing acceleration, devloped by Hybi WG,As one complementary work, W3C standardize websocket API (c).W3C' focus on client implentation bulit into browser,e.g., video playback support using script and html, push notification support using API, video support using Media fragments URI. (d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming (AHS): introduced recently which defines a Media Presentation Description (MDP) and extensions to the well known ISO Base Media File Format. (e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF): has been published on Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive Streaming" which adopts 3GPP AHS and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. The related work is available at: (f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media : MPEG has published Uses Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and Requirements on HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to standardize a solution that addresses the need on how to employ HTTP Streaming to support MPEG MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for proposals on HTTP streaming of MPEG media. Therefore Standardiztion related to this work needs to be carried out joint by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work and efforts will be contributed to and synchronized with these other relevant groups. 3. Given various onging work in other SDOs than IETF and vairous different implementations developed by industries (e.g.,Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, RealNetwork), what contribution IETF could make?What's the potential work item? what kind of problem do we need to solve? Yes, it is clear IETF folks has expertise to do this work. The potential problems and issues the IETF folks are interested to look at and discuss are: (a). Issues involving real-time considerations and interoperability with other streaming techniques (b). Consideration of transportissues (fairness, delay, etc.) (c). Tweaking HTTP to improve streaming performance (d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a network-friendly way. (e). Coordination with other protocols developed by IETF. (f). Offer better transport better than TCP (like SCTP), better tailored for the needs for streaming over http. (g). how to work in environments that may use a combination of RTP multicast and HTTP unicast. (h). How to deliver streaming contents to the client on any device with the same TV Quality of Experience. As for playlist format and streaming file format, these works have been specified by 3GPP, followed by MPEG/OIPF,probably not the interesting piece for the IETFers If I miss something or you have any further inputs and suggestions/comments, please speak up on the list. Based on these inputs and proposals, I would like to share our thoughts thus far on what a new charter might look like and will post in a separate email to this discussion list. The feedback would be highly useful at this point. BTW: Since we have created separated mailing list for this topic, if you have any comments/ideas/proposals to share, please post them to the new discussion list. Regards! -Qin --Boundary_(ID_yssMswj13iWO0rUw1Lckkg) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgY29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PWdi MjMxMiIgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGU+DQo8TUVUQSBuYW1lPUdFTkVSQVRPUiBjb250 ZW50PSJNU0hUTUwgOC4wMC42MDAxLjE4OTI4Ij4NCjxTVFlMRT48L1NUWUxFPg0KPC9IRUFEPg0K PEJPRFkgYmdDb2xvcj0jZmZmZmZmPjxGT05UIHNpemU9Mj48L0ZPTlQ+PEZPTlQgDQpmYWNlPSJU aW1lcyBOZXcgUm9tYW4iPjwvRk9OVD48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJUaW1lcyBOZXcgUm9tYW4iPjwvRk9O VD4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iVGltZXMgTmV3IFJvbWFuIj5IaSwgZm9sa3M6PC9GT05UPjwv RElWPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBmYWNlPSJUaW1lcyBOZXcgUm9tYW4iPkdsYWQgdG8gc2VlIHRoaXMg ZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBsaXN0Jm5ic3A7aGFzIA0KYmVlbiZuYnNwO2NyZWF0ZWQgd2l0aCB0aGUgc3Vw cG9ydCBvZiBhbGwgb2YgeW91LjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PEZPTlQgZmFjZT0iVGltZXMg TmV3IFJvbWFuIj5TdW1tYXJpemVkIHdoYXQgd2UgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGluIHRoZSBESVNQQVRDSCAN 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HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11cI5u-Aqppu for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D747A3A68D9 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 2010 21:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9A00IF9BCHIK@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:05:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9A00GMDBCHA6@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:05:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9A003B6BCH5X@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:05:05 +0800 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 12:05:05 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <02f501cb5c66$d61b15f0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_fc7v+0hkr/dxwb7mZdo9ag)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [httpstreaming] Charter Skeleton draft- Your thoughts are requested X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 04:04:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. 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2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AF43A6A4D for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.954 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.954 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.644, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvpC2IoDSw6I for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392BA3A6A49 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn3 with SMTP id 3so3512846iwn.31 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:33:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: 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<02ed01cb5c65$a003d890$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> References: <000601cb59e8$f27af420$ff5afea9@C863D63E94E7457> <02ed01cb5c65$a003d890$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 16:33:42 +0900 Message-ID: From: Daniel Park To: Qin Wu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e644df0abaf6780491108394 Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 07:33:20 -0000 --0016e644df0abaf6780491108394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Good to see this activity within IETF and highly welcome. As you described below, there are already several SDO activities, and particularly they have their own direction and schedule toward the market. http-adaptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are already implemented in the commercial level. I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordination among the existing activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for each in order not to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will be very confused in the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the train too late unfortunately. For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is the first, then we will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF based on the results of analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to me. Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly. Daniel -- Soohong Daniel Park http://www.soohongp.com 2010/9/25 Qin Wu > Hi, folks: > Glad to see this discussion list has been created with the support of all > of you. > Summarized what we discussed in the DISPATCH mailing list on HTTP > Streaming, couples of things were well discussed: > 1. Does this work worth being done? > Most of people speaked up on the list answer Yes since HTTP streaming is > becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet Traffic today has been > possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct Download. > > 2. Is there any existing related work ongoing in IETF and other SDO? > This questions haven't been explicitly discussed. But I think it is > necessary to bring out on the table since we need more input from these > existing work > and coordination between different group on the same topic is requried. > > So,Yes, we have lots of related work listed as follows: > > (a).IETF: > > HTTP Streaming Problem Statement > discuss the issues when delivering high quality contents to browser users. > The related draft is available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-00 > > Apples' HTTP live streaming: > well known for quite some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes use > of a M3U playlist file which serves as manifest and each media file must be > formatted as an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio elementary > stream. > Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly proprietary. However, it > works with common media players. > The related work is avaiable at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 > > > (b). IETF: Websocket protocol > Focus on browsing acceleration, devloped by Hybi WG,As one complementary > work, W3C standardize websocket API > > (c).W3C' focus on client implentation bulit into browser,e.g., video > playback support using script and html, push notification support using API, > video support using Media fragments URI. > > (d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming (AHS): > introduced recently which defines a Media Presentation Description (MDP) > and extensions to the well known ISO Base Media File Format. > > (e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF): > has been published on Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive Streaming" > which adopts 3GPP AHS and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. The > related work is available at: > > (f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media : > MPEG has published Uses Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and > Requirements on HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to > standardize a solution that addresses the need on how to employ HTTP > Streaming to support MPEG MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for proposals > on HTTP streaming of MPEG media. > Therefore Standardiztion related to this work needs to be carried out joint > by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work and efforts will be contributed to and > synchronized > with these other relevant groups. > > > 3. Given various onging work in other SDOs than IETF and vairous different > implementations developed by industries (e.g.,Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, > RealNetwork), what contribution IETF could make?What's the potential work > item? what kind of problem do we need to solve? > > Yes, it is clear IETF folks has expertise to do this work. The potential > problems and issues the IETF folks are interested to look at and discuss > are: > (a). Issues involving real-time considerations and interoperability with > other streaming techniques > (b). Consideration of transportissues (fairness, delay, etc.) > (c). Tweaking HTTP to improve streaming performance > (d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a network-friendly way. > (e). Coordination with other protocols developed by IETF. > (f). Offer better transport better than TCP (like SCTP), better tailored > for the needs for streaming over http. > (g). how to work in environments that may use a combination of RTP > multicast and HTTP unicast. > (h). How to deliver streaming contents to the client on any device with the > same TV Quality of Experience. > As for playlist format and streaming file format, these works have been > specified by 3GPP, followed by MPEG/OIPF,probably not the interesting piece > for the IETFers > > If I miss something or you have any further inputs and > suggestions/comments, please speak up on the list. > Based on these inputs and proposals, I would like to share our thoughts > thus far on what a new charter might > look like and will post in a separate email to this discussion list. The > feedback would be highly useful at this point. > > BTW: > Since we have created separated mailing list for this topic, if you have > any comments/ideas/proposals to share, please post > them to the new discussion list. > > Regards! > -Qin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > > --0016e644df0abaf6780491108394 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good to see this activity within IETF and highly welcome.

As you described below, there are already several SDO acti= vities, and particularly they have their own direction and schedule toward = the market. http-adaptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) ar= e already implemented in the commercial level.=A0

I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordinatio= n among the existing activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the rol= e for each in order not to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity wil= l be very confused in the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the tra= in too late unfortunately.

For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is= the first, then we will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF = based on the results of analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to m= e.=A0

Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly.=


Daniel
--
Soohong Daniel Pa= rk
http://www.soohongp.com


2010/9/25 Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com>= ;
Hi, folks:
Glad to see this discussion list=A0has= =20 been=A0created with the support of all of you.
Summarized what we discussed in the DIS= PATCH=20 mailing list on HTTP Streaming, couples of things=A0were well=20 discussed:
1. Does this work worth being=20 done?
Most of people speaked up on the list a= nswer=20 Yes since HTTP streaming is becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet= =20 Traffic today has been=A0 possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct=20 Download.
=A0
2. Is there any existing related work o= ngoing=20 in IETF and other SDO?
This questions haven't been explici= tly=20 discussed. But I think it is necessary to bring out on the table since we n= eed=20 more input from these existing work
and coordination between different grou= p on=20 the same topic is requried.
=A0
So,Yes, we have lots of related work li= sted as=20 follows:
=A0
(a).IETF:
=A0
HTTP Streaming Problem=20 Statement
discuss the issues when deli= vering high=20 quality contents to browser users.
The related draft is available=20 at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-00=
=A0
Apples' HTTP live stream= ing:
well=20 known for quite some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes use of a = M3U=20 playlist file which serves as manifest and each media file must be formatte= d as=20 an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio elementary stream.=20
Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly proprietary. However,= it=20 works with common media players.
The related work is avaiable=20 at:
h= ttp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04
=A0
=A0
(b). IETF: Websocket protocol=20
Focus on browsing accelerati= on,=20 devloped by Hybi WG,As one complementary work, W3C standardize websocket=20 API
=A0
(c).W3C' focus on client implentation bulit into browser,e.g., vid= eo=20 playback support using script and html, push notification support using API= ,=20 video support using Media fragments URI.
=A0
(d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming = (AHS):=20
introduced recently which defines a Media Presentation Description (MDP= )=20
and extensions to the well known ISO Base Media File Format.
=A0
(e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF):
has bee= n=20 published on Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive Streaming" wh= ich adopts 3GPP=20 AHS and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. The related work is avail= able=20 at:
=A0
(f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Me= dia :=20
MPEG has published Uses Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and=20 Requirements on HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to standardi= ze a=20 solution that addresses the need on how to employ HTTP Streaming to support= MPEG=20 MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for proposals on HTTP streaming of MPEG= =20 media.
Therefore Standardiztion related to thi= s=20 work=A0needs to be=A0carried out joint by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work= =20 and efforts will be contributed to and synchronized
with these other=20 relevant groups.
=A0
=A0
3. Given various onging work in other S= DOs=20 than IETF=A0and vairous different implementations developed by industries= =20 (e.g.,Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, RealNetwork), what contribution IETF could= =20 make?What's the potential work it= em? what=20 kind of problem do we need to solve?
=A0
Yes, it is clear IETF folks has experti= se to=20 do this work. The potential problems and issues=A0the IETF folks are=20 interested to look at and discuss are:
(a). Issues involving real-time conside= rations=20 and interoperability with other streaming techniques
(b). Consideration of transportissues= =20 (fairness, delay, etc.)
(c). Tweaking HTTP to improve streaming= =20 performance
(d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a=20 network-friendly way.
(e). Coordination with other protocols= =20 developed by IETF.
(f). Offer better transport better than= TCP=20 (like SCTP), better tailored for the needs for streaming over http.<= /div>
(g). how to work in environments that m= ay use=20 a combination of RTP multicast and HTTP unicast.
(h). How to deliver=20 streaming contents to the client on any device with the same TV Quality of= =20 Experience.
As for playlist format and streaming fi= le=20 format, these works have been specified by 3GPP, followed by MPEG/OIPF,prob= ably=20 not the interesting piece for the IETFers
=A0
If I miss something or you have any fur= ther=20 inputs and suggestions/comments, please speak up on the list.
Based on these inputs and proposals, I = would=20 like to share our thoughts thus far on what=A0 a new charter=20 might
look like and will post in a separate e= mail to=20 this discussion list. The feedback would be highly useful at this=20 point.
=A0
BTW:
Since we have created separated mailing= list=20 for this topic, if you have any comments/ideas/proposals to share, please= =20 post
them to the new discussion=A0=20 list.
=A0
Regards!
-Qin
=A0
=A0
=A0

_______________________________________________
httpstreaming mailing list
httpstreaming@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming




--0016e644df0abaf6780491108394-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Sat Sep 25 06:09:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97CB3A6AE9 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 06:09:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.055 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.055 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.440, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0k1C+RvJqXw0 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 06:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga05-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4D43A6B1D for ; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 06:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9B001L80JP20@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:09:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9B002AM0JPZ6@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:09:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9B00LQI0JPYU@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:09:25 +0800 (CST) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:09:25 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <006d01cb5cb2$e10f9520$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6aJzdfRHc3Fi4y8WaplAPA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [httpstreaming] Fw: I-D Action:draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 13:09:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_6aJzdfRHc3Fi4y8WaplAPA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, folks: The new version of draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01 is available at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt which outline couples of challenging issues when delivering high quality real time streaming contents to the clients with the common QoE. Your comments and suggestions are welcome! Regards! -Qin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:00 PM Subject: I-D Action:draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : Problem Statement for HTTP Streaming > Author(s) : Q. Wu > Filename : draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt > Pages : 18 > Date : 2010-09-25 > > HTTP Streaming allows breaking the live contents or stored contents > into several chunks/fragments and supplying them in order to the > client. However streaming long duration and high quality media over > the internet has several Challenges when we require the client to > access the same media content with the common Quality experience at > any device, anytime, anywhere. This document explores problem > inherent in HTTP streaming. Several issues regarding network support > for HTTP Streaming have been raised, which include QoS guarantee > offering to streaming video over Internet, efficient delivery, > network control adaptive and real time streaming media > synchronization support. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > --Boundary_(ID_6aJzdfRHc3Fi4y8WaplAPA) Content-type: text/plain; name=draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2010-09-25055759.I-D@ietf.org> --Boundary_(ID_6aJzdfRHc3Fi4y8WaplAPA)-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Sun Sep 26 18:20:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5EC13A6C1B for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.232 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.232 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.874, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7oGEmWxdN72 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0593A6A58 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 18:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9D00DE1T25NX@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:20:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9D00C2ET25G0@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:20:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9D00JV8T24K5@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:20:29 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:20:26 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_fRpvY6N5nJoJ7KX2t9G79Q)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 01:20:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_fRpvY6N5nJoJ7KX2t9G79Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, folks: We have planned to have a BarBOF in time for Beijing IETF meeting. The primary goal of this BarBOF is to making sure that people agree on what problem (or problems) need to be solved; Some of these problems or interesting issues are summarized in my previous email available at (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html) which was raised by people who are interested in HTTP Streaming in the DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this new discussion list. The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement draft which I have updated recently (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt). Another goal is to make sure we have not any overlapping with other SDO. In order to stimulate the discussion toward these two goals, I have crafted intial charter skeleton. http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00003.html I would like us to center around these problems we listed and the intial charter skeleton I drafted to figure out (a) what kind of use cases can we have (b) and how many problems are worth being discussed (c) Is there any challenging issues we missed or neglected? (d) and what kind of concrete protocol/mechanism/scheme can we come up with? Also I would like to point out some related works in IETF for your references. Curretly what we have on the table includes: Apples' HTTP live streaming http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 HTTP Streaming Problem Statement http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-001 Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-http-fullduplex-01 If there is any related work missing or wrong, please let me know. Also I would like to encourage people to bring your contributions and thoughts in draft to this discussion list. Regards! -Qin --Boundary_(ID_fRpvY6N5nJoJ7KX2t9G79Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hi, folks:
We have planned to have a BarBOF in time for Beijing IETF meeting.
 
The primary goal of this BarBOF is to making sure that people agree on what problem (or problems) need to be solved;
Some of these problems or interesting issues are summarized in my previous email available at
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html) which was raised by people who are interested
in HTTP Streaming in the  DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this new discussion list.
The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement
draft which I have updated recently
 
Another goal is to make sure we have not any overlapping with other SDO.
 
In order to stimulate the discussion toward these two goals, I have crafted intial charter skeleton.
 
I would like us to center around these problems we listed and the intial charter skeleton I drafted to figure out
(a) what kind of use cases can we  have
(b) and how many problems are worth being discussed
(c) Is there any challenging issues we missed or neglected?
(d) and what kind of concrete protocol/mechanism/scheme can we  come up with?
 
Also I would like to point out some related works in IETF for your references. Curretly what we have on the table includes:
Apples' HTTP live streaming
HTTP Streaming Problem Statement
Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP
If there is any related work missing or wrong, please let me know. Also I would like to encourage people to bring your contributions
and thoughts in draft to this discussion list.
 
Regards!
-Qin

 --Boundary_(ID_fRpvY6N5nJoJ7KX2t9G79Q)-- From abegen@cisco.com Sun Sep 26 19:41:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F4D3A6A90 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:41:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N41DDJjU9aBf for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sj-iport-1.cisco.com (sj-iport-1.cisco.com [171.71.176.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546193A6A64 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAGOhn0yrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACDG58WcasdigIIkU2BHoMueASEUIhu X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,241,1283731200"; d="scan'208";a="365462201" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2010 02:42:15 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8R2gF7M016022; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 02:42:15 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.169]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:42:15 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:41:38 -0700 Message-ID: <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540D39F0AD@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal Thread-Index: Actd4jb0w1w2oCPwToub2/cWdroNWgACPRUw References: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: "Qin Wu" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2010 02:42:15.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[982CB450:01CB5DED] Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 02:41:38 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 9:20 PM > To: httpstreaming@ietf.org > Subject: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal >=20 > Hi, folks: > We have planned to have a BarBOF in time for Beijing IETF meeting. Could we get this scheduled for earlier in the week if possible? =20 > The primary goal of this BarBOF is to making sure that people agree on = what problem (or problems) need to be solved; > Some of these problems or interesting issues are summarized in my = previous email available at > = (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html= ) which was raised by people who are > interested > in HTTP Streaming in the DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this = new discussion list. > The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement > draft which I have updated recently > = (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization= -ps-01.txt). I have two major comments on this draft: 1- There is an acronym pollution which results from referring to several = different specifications at the same time. I strongly suggest to have a = definitions section and simply adopt the definitions from the most = mature spec, which is the 3gpp spec as of now. 2- There are many strong claims which (mostly) favor HTTP streaming = compared to other approaches. I can understand the bias, however, I = would recommend staying away from making claims without proper proof or = citation. This will help us have a more fair problem statement document. =20 > Another goal is to make sure we have not any overlapping with other = SDO. We *can* certainly have an overlapping goal, why should not we if we = decide to move forward? If we think we have a better solution for a = problem, we should propose and document it. There is indeed a timing = issue since other groups have started working on this long before. But, = if needed, we can catch up quickly. > In order to stimulate the discussion toward these two goals, I have = crafted intial charter skeleton. > = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00003.html That is a pretty loaded charter. I hope the mailing list discussion will = get us to a better position before the meeting. =20 > I would like us to center around these problems we listed and the = intial charter skeleton I drafted to figure out > (a) what kind of use cases can we have > (b) and how many problems are worth being discussed > (c) Is there any challenging issues we missed or neglected? > (d) and what kind of concrete protocol/mechanism/scheme can we come = up with? >=20 > Also I would like to point out some related works in IETF for your = references. Curretly what we have on the table includes: > Apples' HTTP live streaming > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 > HTTP Streaming Problem Statement > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-001 > Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-http-fullduplex-01 > If there is any related work missing or wrong, please let me know. = Also I would like to encourage people to bring your > contributions > and thoughts in draft to this discussion list. Cheers, acbegen. =20 > Regards! > -Qin From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 09:24:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B133A6B4C for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:24:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.998, BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R6cdSDAR6Dta for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6E03A6BB7 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fxm6 with SMTP id 6so3574780fxm.31 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:24:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:user-agent:date:subject:from :to:cc:message-id:thread-topic:thread-index:mime-version :content-type; bh=yvooGByOIAr6CoJofYuwsNKOgraQEGHEOAyapDp2/+o=; b=cem0m2sY7gLyEu86IzfEHEhmipQY9hjo2ycM3MGU/Dx73IpaeV1RfTQfYKitY10VHu WLmNS0HAYPuTj7U1NlhIdcJ22yFtZ5hEg76K7vLNuoLCJYEU/e8UtfUMeXHEoOAZuBvq ChLmRI7EGo86yvTziyEwBDJYXENmFXPnSub6Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :thread-index:mime-version:content-type; b=xWksvV9EsCr7cOzpCOwMcqKIpS6YLdS6DOudl4mEPf1KHfH6r4A1gDVuspSgh/LW3V nvf0hZ8eOCmRMqnD51KZyLdYaumErBKkGW/NvRa7tYyUeom/ZsoN09X2vee51xqoAHvo PxmI4BfCf5dDR/RwJIPxX1hioVaka7iPgMBjs= Received: by 10.239.168.65 with SMTP id j1mr625911hbe.114.1285604698888; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.34] (cpe-76-184-249-116.tx.res.rr.com [76.184.249.116]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a15sm1500046vci.13.2010.09.27.09.24.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:24:57 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.26.0.100708 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:24:53 -0500 From: Henry Sinnreich To: Daniel Park , Qin Wu Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? Thread-Index: ActeYIO4vLMB5SvksUS7ektJvr3vHg== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3368431497_12519432" Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:24:28 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3368431497_12519432 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Given the rapid rollout of HDTV over streaming HTTP in the market and the huge traffic it generates, an IETF standard is highly desirable. Most large content providers state their HTDV and other content (such as SW distribution) is delivered over standard HTTP 1.1. * So is there anything to standardize at all? * If yes concretely what items? * Examples of usage scenarios that require a new protocol or extensions, specifically such as...? Arguments for if/why/how to impact the huge infrastructure that has been proven to work well and is clearly accepted =8Cas is=B9 by the application developers - the critical stakeholders. This infrastructure is very expensive and hard to change. This is the reaso= n the added value has moved up into the application layer, where developers are not constrained by the infrastructure: Web browsers (admittedly a movin= g target) Web servers and CDN. At the cost of peering bandwidth... The I-D: draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization is a good start and could actually also address the issues =B3what is the problem=B2 in way that speaks t= o CDN operators, browser and application developers and ISPs. Should it be extended to also provide a gap analysis? Or just a table for now, to discus= s during the coming BOF? To stay focused on the real world, to attract the players in the industry (and less the habitual RFC writers) and to make the proposed WG successful, input is required IMO first and foremost from: 1. Streaming media browser and application developers 2. CDN operators =20 3. Other stakeholders such as ISPs concerned about interconnect bandwidth, proliferating CDN servers and network equipment providers. As mentioned on the list, closed network folks are better served in other SDO=20 (IP works so well in a context: the Internet. It is the missing word from s= o many of their documents). Last, but not least, observing the admirable flexibility of the hybi WG in redirecting their work, this future WG may also have to be flexible and if so warranted to refocus, leave HTTP alone (it is handled in the httpbis WG)= , see what would be more helpful to standardize in the application layer, in the HTTP payload, such as metadata. A whole list for the required expertise to do this work comes to mind: * From the Web industry and from experts that have made streaming HTTP happen * From ISPs that worry about peering bandwidth and co-locating so many different edge CDN servers Scheduling two successive BOFs seems to be a good idea. Get all these folks together on how to best coordinate the combined effort. Henry=20 Freshly inspired by the new http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D On 9/25/10 2:33 AM, "Daniel Park" wrote: > Good to see this activity within IETF and highly welcome. >=20 > As you described below, there are already several SDO activities, and > particularly they have their own direction and schedule toward the market= . > http-adaptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are already > implemented in the commercial level.=A0 >=20 > I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordination among the existi= ng > activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for each in order= not > to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will be very confused in = the > market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the train too late unfortunatel= y. >=20 > For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is the first, then w= e > will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF based on the resul= ts of > analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to me.=A0 >=20 > Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly. >=20 >=20 > Daniel --B_3368431497_12519432 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? Given the rapid rollout of HDTV over streaming HTTP in the = market and the huge traffic it generates, an IETF standard is highly desirab= le.

Most large content providers state their HTDV and other content (such as SW= distribution) is delivered over standard HTTP 1.1.
* So is there anything to standardize at all?
* If yes concretely what items?
* Examples of usage scenarios that require a new protocol or extensions, sp= ecifically such as...?

Arguments for if/why/how to impact the huge infrastructure that has been pr= oven to work well and is clearly accepted ‘as is’ by the applica= tion developers - the critical stakeholders.
This infrastructure is very expensive and hard to change. This is the reaso= n the added value has moved up into the application layer, where developers = are not constrained by the infrastructure: Web browsers (admittedly a moving= target) Web servers and CDN. At the cost of peering bandwidth...

The I-D: draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization is a good start and could act= ually also address the issues “what is the problem” in way that = speaks to CDN operators, browser and application developers and ISPs. Should= it be extended to also provide a gap analysis? Or just a table for now, to = discuss during the coming BOF?

To stay focused on the real world, to attract the players in the industry (= and less the habitual RFC writers) and to make the proposed WG successful, i= nput is required IMO first and foremost from:

  1. Streaming media browser and ap= plication developers=20
  2. CDN operators  
  3. Other stakeholders such as ISPs co= ncerned about interconnect bandwidth, proliferating CDN servers and network = equipment providers.

As mentioned on the list, closed network folks are better served in other S= DO
(IP works so well in a context: the Internet. It is the missing word from s= o many of their documents).

Last, but not least, observing the admirable flexibility of the hybi WG in = redirecting their work, this future WG may also have to be flexible and if s= o warranted to refocus, leave HTTP alone (it is handled in the httpbis WG), = see what would be more helpful to standardize in the application layer, in t= he HTTP payload, such as metadata.

A whole list for the required expertise to do this work comes to mind:
* From the Web industry and from experts that have made streaming HTTP happ= en
* From ISPs that worry about peering bandwidth and co-locating so many diff= erent edge CDN servers

Scheduling two successive BOFs seems to be a good idea.
Get all these folks together on how to best coordinate the combined effort.=

Henry

Freshly inspired by the new http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= hybi-thewebsocketprotocol/

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


On 9/25/10 2:33 AM, "Daniel Park" <soohongp@gmail.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt'>Good to see this activity within IETF and highly= welcome.

As you described below, there are already several SDO activities, and parti= cularly they have their own direction and schedule toward the market. http-a= daptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are already implement= ed in the commercial level.=A0

I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordination among the existing= activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for each in order n= ot to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will be very confused in = the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the train too late unfortunate= ly.

For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is the first, then we = will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF based on the results = of analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to me.=A0

Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly.


Daniel
=






--B_3368431497_12519432-- From luby@qualcomm.com Mon Sep 27 13:34:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D20F3A6B5B for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:34:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2GfGB7HQKOv for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE113A6AFA for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:34:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=luby@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1285619696; x=1317155696; h=from:to:cc:date:subject:thread-topic:thread-index: message-id:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language: x-ms-has-attach:x-ms-tnef-correlator:user-agent: acceptlanguage:content-type:mime-version; z=From:=20"Luby,=20Michael"=20|To:=20"h ttpstreaming@ietf.org"=20|CC:=20" Luby,=20Michael"=20|Date:=20Mon,=2027 =20Sep=202010=2013:34:51=20-0700|Subject:=20[httpstreamin g]=20Why=20a=20new=20standard=20for=20streaming=20HTTP? |Thread-Topic:=20[httpstreaming]=20Why=20a=20new=20standa rd=20for=20streaming=20HTTP?|Thread-Index:=20ActedoYknOR/ 8PjHQbi3vQUrdgGyBAADOkWE|Message-ID:=20|In-Reply-To:=20|Accept-Language:=20en-US |Content-Language:=20en-US|X-MS-Has-Attach: |X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:|user-agent:=20Microsoft-Entourage/ 13.6.0.100712|acceptlanguage:=20en-US|Content-Type:=20mul tipart/alternative=3B=0D=0A=09boundary=3D"_000_C8C64DFB4E 3Alubyqualcommcom_"|MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=NOVg+PUMLxEShBiBGf8wkUU59gc1nuf4VppsjFAFQLU=; b=HqO6WxEmlvCpLk3RYsYrLJou23uJwRT2gJXj98PBjUr8VxSleFhUnDmT DZlSqriuVAJzMmkccJI6jhbT+MyVLleXVcjvoj+1Haevw0S2d/NxNSks2 phnDNPhvkJkF4ADPx0lLPid/n+2ympw7xH+XsAtrAqaLWWVeLQPxL4SKS 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6119"; a="55886030" Received: from ironmsg04-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.19]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2010 13:34:55 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,243,1283756400"; d="scan'208,217";a="17560843" Received: from nasanexhub01.na.qualcomm.com ([10.46.93.121]) by Ironmsg04-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 27 Sep 2010 13:34:55 -0700 Received: from nasclexhc02.na.qualcomm.com (10.227.147.13) by nasanexhub01.na.qualcomm.com (10.46.93.121) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:34:55 -0700 Received: from NASCLEXMB02.na.qualcomm.com ([10.227.144.113]) by nasclexhc02.na.qualcomm.com ([10.227.147.13]) with mapi; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:34:44 -0700 From: "Luby, Michael" To: "httpstreaming@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:34:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? Thread-Index: ActedoYknOR/8PjHQbi3vQUrdgGyBAADOkWE Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.6.0.100712 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C8C64DFB4E3Alubyqualcommcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "Luby, Michael" Subject: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:34:17 -0000 --_000_C8C64DFB4E3Alubyqualcommcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few comments/thoughts. (1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT HTTP str= eaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF. There is = a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on HTTP streaming= (DASH =97 dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of the people involv= ed are working across these organizations, and liaisons are being sent back= and forth to coordinate, etc. For example, they have all adopted the same= baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, and features that were devel= oped by MPEG are being rolled back into 3GPP, etc. It is not clear what th= e IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps may subtract?) The attempt is to cre= ate one standard across the different organizations, and not disparate comp= eting standards. (2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good to al= ign with the goal of one common standard. If there is fragmentation, it wi= ll not be good for deployment. For example, I=92ve seen emails on this lis= t that suggest that the IETF might go in a different direction and use a di= fferent basis other than HTTP, or do something that is based on HTTP but is= contrary to these other standards, and it seems that these directions will= only confuse/slow down any adoption. (3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use HTTP= 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not to cal= l this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is suitable= for whatever is being standardized. Mike Luby On 9/27/10 12:00 PM, "httpstreaming-request@ietf.org" wrote: If you have received this digest without all the individual message attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list subscription. To do so, go to https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. Send httpstreaming mailing list submissions to httpstreaming@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to httpstreaming-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at httpstreaming-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of httpstreaming digest..." --_000_C8C64DFB4E3Alubyqualcommcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? A few comments/thoughts.

(1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT HTTP str= eaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF.  Ther= e is a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on HTTP stre= aming (DASH =97 dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of the people i= nvolved are working across these organizations, and liaisons are being sent= back and forth to coordinate, etc.  For example, they have all adopte= d the same baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, and features that = were developed by MPEG are being rolled back into 3GPP, etc.  It is no= t clear what the IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps may subtract?)  T= he attempt is to create one standard across the different organizations, an= d not disparate competing standards.

(2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good to al= ign with the goal of one common standard.  If there is fragmentation, = it will not be good for deployment.  For example, I=92ve seen emails o= n this list that suggest that the IETF might go in a different direction an= d use a different basis other than HTTP, or do something that is based on H= TTP but is contrary to these other standards, and it seems that these direc= tions will only confuse/slow down any adoption.

(3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use HTTP= 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not to cal= l this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is suitable= for whatever is being standardized.

Mike Luby



On 9/27/10 12:00 PM, "https= treaming-request@ietf.org" <httpstreaming-request@ietf.org> wrote:

If you have received this dige= st without all the individual message
attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list
subscription.  To do so, go to

https://www= .ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming

Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME.  You can set this option globally for all the list digests you receive at this point.



Send httpstreaming mailing list submissions to
 httpstreaming@ietf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 https= ://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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--_000_C8C64DFB4E3Alubyqualcommcom_-- From tme@americafree.tv Mon Sep 27 13:37:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90553A6B5B for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:37:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xmas0jfqvuj6 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.americafree.tv (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89203A6AFA for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (rossini.americafree.tv [63.105.122.34]) by mail.americafree.tv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BEC08EE9D74; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Marshall Eubanks In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:38:20 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Luby, Michael" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: "httpstreaming@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:37:44 -0000 On Sep 27, 2010, at 4:34 PM, Luby, Michael wrote: > A few comments/thoughts. >=20 > (1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT = HTTP streaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF. = There is a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on = HTTP streaming (DASH =97 dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of = the people involved are working across these organizations, and liaisons = are being sent back and forth to coordinate, etc. For example, they = have all adopted the same baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, = and features that were developed by MPEG are being rolled back into = 3GPP, etc. It is not clear what the IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps = may subtract?) The attempt is to create one standard across the = different organizations, and not disparate competing standards. >=20 Dear Michael; How aligned is this work with what Apple is doing ? Regards Marshall > (2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good = to align with the goal of one common standard. If there is = fragmentation, it will not be good for deployment. For example, I=92ve = seen emails on this list that suggest that the IETF might go in a = different direction and use a different basis other than HTTP, or do = something that is based on HTTP but is contrary to these other = standards, and it seems that these directions will only confuse/slow = down any adoption. >=20 > (3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use = HTTP 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not = to call this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is = suitable for whatever is being standardized. >=20 > Mike Luby >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 9/27/10 12:00 PM, "httpstreaming-request@ietf.org" = wrote: >=20 >> If you have received this digest without all the individual message >> attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list >> subscription. To do so, go to=20 >>=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming >>=20 >> Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get >> MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option >> globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Send httpstreaming mailing list submissions to >> httpstreaming@ietf.org >>=20 >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> httpstreaming-request@ietf.org >>=20 >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> httpstreaming-owner@ietf.org >>=20 >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of httpstreaming digest..." > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming From versteb@cisco.com Mon Sep 27 14:20:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4941E3A6DC7 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:20:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.252, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aceySVW1EWvW for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com (rtp-iport-2.cisco.com [64.102.122.149]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD633A6D9D for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmQFAC6noEytJV2b/2dsb2JhbACBRKBTca0hnHOFRASEUIhv X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,244,1283731200"; d="scan'208,217";a="164283135" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Sep 2010 21:21:21 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com [72.163.63.9]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o8RLLLon029267; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:21:21 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-213.cisco.com ([72.163.62.220]) by xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:20 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB5E89.EDE44825" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:21:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? Thread-Index: ActedoYknOR/8PjHQbi3vQUrdgGyBAADOkWEAAF1RVA= References: From: "Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)" To: "Luby, Michael" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2010 21:21:20.0858 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE1CB3A0:01CB5E89] Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:20:50 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB5E89.EDE44825 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike- =20 Excellent points. IMHO, IETF should take the other SDO's work as a baseline. Then, and only the, should the IETF determine if there is anything we can contribute.=20 =20 One area that may be productive is in how a high-concurrency stream (think World Cup Finals) could be efficiently delivered. The current unicast caching methods are all fine and good, but if we try to extend them to cover very high concurrency cases for rate adaptive flows, I suspect that we will be out of bandwidth, particularly in the last mile. I suspect that a multicast solution would have some merit. There is a small bit of work being done in this area at the other SDOs, but I suspect that some of the subject matter experts are at the IETF. I further suspect that the other SDOs recognize that this is an important area that needs to be done properly, and would welcome some good ideas from the IETF. =20 There may be other areas, but let's be real sure that we pick our spots judiciously. We have enough on our plates without making work for ourselves. =20 Bill VerSteeg =20 =20 From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Luby, Michael Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:35 PM To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Cc: Luby, Michael Subject: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? =20 A few comments/thoughts. (1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT HTTP streaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF. There is a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on HTTP streaming (DASH - dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of the people involved are working across these organizations, and liaisons are being sent back and forth to coordinate, etc. For example, they have all adopted the same baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, and features that were developed by MPEG are being rolled back into 3GPP, etc. It is not clear what the IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps may subtract?) The attempt is to create one standard across the different organizations, and not disparate competing standards. (2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good to align with the goal of one common standard. If there is fragmentation, it will not be good for deployment. For example, I've seen emails on this list that suggest that the IETF might go in a different direction and use a different basis other than HTTP, or do something that is based on HTTP but is contrary to these other standards, and it seems that these directions will only confuse/slow down any adoption. (3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use HTTP 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not to call this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is suitable for whatever is being standardized. Mike Luby On 9/27/10 12:00 PM, "httpstreaming-request@ietf.org" wrote: If you have received this digest without all the individual message attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list subscription. To do so, go to=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. Send httpstreaming mailing list submissions to httpstreaming@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to httpstreaming-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at httpstreaming-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of httpstreaming digest..." ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB5E89.EDE44825 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP?

Mike-

 

Excellent points. IMHO, IETF should take the other = SDO’s work as a baseline. Then, and only the, should the IETF determine if there is = anything we can contribute.

 

One area that may be productive is in how a = high-concurrency stream (think World Cup Finals) could be efficiently delivered. The = current unicast caching methods are all fine and good, but if we try to extend them to = cover very high concurrency cases for rate adaptive flows, I suspect that we = will be out of bandwidth, particularly in the last mile. I suspect that a = multicast solution would have some merit. There is a small bit of work being done = in this area at the other SDOs, but I suspect that some of the subject matter = experts are at the IETF. I further suspect that the other SDOs recognize that = this is an important area that needs to be done properly, and would welcome some = good ideas from the IETF.

 

There may be other areas, but let’s be real sure = that we pick our spots judiciously. We have enough on our plates without making work = for ourselves.

 

Bill VerSteeg

 

 

From:= httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Luby, Michael
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:35 PM
To: httpstreaming@ietf.org
Cc: Luby, Michael
Subject: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming = HTTP?

 

A few comments/thoughts.

(1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT HTTP streaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF. =  There is a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on HTTP = streaming (DASH — dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of the people = involved are working across these organizations, and liaisons are being sent back and = forth to coordinate, etc.  For example, they have all adopted the same = baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, and features that were developed by = MPEG are being rolled back into 3GPP, etc.  It is not clear what the = IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps may subtract?)  The attempt is to create = one standard across the different organizations, and not disparate competing standards.

(2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good to = align with the goal of one common standard.  If there is fragmentation, = it will not be good for deployment.  For example, I’ve seen emails on = this list that suggest that the IETF might go in a different direction and use a different basis other than HTTP, or do something that is based on HTTP = but is contrary to these other standards, and it seems that these directions = will only confuse/slow down any adoption.

(3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use = HTTP 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not to call = this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is suitable for whatever is being standardized.

Mike Luby



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------_=_NextPart_001_01CB5E89.EDE44825-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Mon Sep 27 19:27:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF02D3A6C10 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.165 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.754, BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a1ADLcxKOYw3 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga05-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102373A6A80 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F00M87QUPZC@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:28:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F00GR3QUO6Z@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:28:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9F00M44QUO3S@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:28:00 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:28:00 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" , httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <01c801cb5eb4$c545eed0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> <04CAD96D4C5A3D48B1919248A8FE0D540D39F0AD@xmb-sjc-215.amer.cisco.com> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 02:27:33 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" To: "Qin Wu" ; Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 10:41 AM Subject: RE: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal > -----Original Message----- > From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Qin Wu > Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 9:20 PM > To: httpstreaming@ietf.org > Subject: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal > > Hi, folks: > We have planned to have a BarBOF in time for Beijing IETF meeting. Could we get this scheduled for earlier in the week if possible? [Qin]: Good idea. But is it too early to schedule this meeting? formerly I was planning to ask people to vote on the meeting time two or three weeks before Beijing IETF meeting. And we may take advantage of Doodle to do this. > The primary goal of this BarBOF is to making sure that people agree on what problem (or problems) need to be solved; > Some of these problems or interesting issues are summarized in my previous email available at > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html) which was raised by people who are > interested > in HTTP Streaming in the DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this new discussion list. > The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement > draft which I have updated recently > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt). I have two major comments on this draft: 1- There is an acronym pollution which results from referring to several different specifications at the same time. I strongly suggest to have a definitions section and simply adopt the definitions from the most mature spec, which is the 3gpp spec as of now. [Qin]: Yes, you are right. e.g.,"media fragments" specified in W3C takes the name of "media segments" in 3GPP, "playlist" specified in Apple's live streaming draft is referred to as "media description presentation",Also "medias description presentation" will be described as "manifest". Also we have different name for HTTP streaming, HTTP adaptive streaming, HTTP smooth streaming, HTTP live streaming, Dyanmic HTTP Streaming. It is very confusing what they are and what's their difference. Therefore we will clearup these acronym polution in the new version. 2- There are many strong claims which (mostly) favor HTTP streaming compared to other approaches. I can understand the bias, however, I would recommend staying away from making claims without proper proof or citation. This will help us have a more fair problem statement document. [Qin]: Thank for your suggestions, we will add some concrete citations to convince this in the new version. Yes, actually we have had proofs and statistics data.e.g., a. According to ATLAS Internet observatory 2009 annual report, P2P is the fastest shrinking, and mainly eclipsed by streaming, CDN and direct download. b. According to another report about Global Mobile Broadband Traffic Report from Allot communications, HTTP streaming is the fastest growing application with a rise of above 50% you might be interested in taking looking at this https://files.me.com/alexander.adolf/ib9f1x which has been become available recently. > Another goal is to make sure we have not any overlapping with other SDO. We *can* certainly have an overlapping goal, why should not we if we decide to move forward? If we think we have a better solution for a problem, we should propose and document it. There is indeed a timing issue since other groups have started working on this long before. But, if needed, we can catch up quickly. [Qin]: I would like to say it is better for us to take other SDO's work as basis and make gap analysis between what IETF is going to do and what other SDO has already done to make them comfortable. And I am pretty much sure there are too much room for IETF to delve into. e.g., Existing work more rely on Client to handle bandwidth and playout and require nothing from network side which is diffcicult to satisfy QoS/QoE requirement which Best effort Internet can not provide. > In order to stimulate the discussion toward these two goals, I have crafted intial charter skeleton. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00003.html That is a pretty loaded charter. I hope the mailing list discussion will get us to a better position before the meeting. [Qin]: yes, we definitely need to narrow the scope and gain an understanding of the directions forward through this list discussion. The charter text I proposed is just used for discussion basis. If you have any thoughts/ideas on our goal and scope of charter text, please speakup and share your thoughts. > I would like us to center around these problems we listed and the intial charter skeleton I drafted to figure out > (a) what kind of use cases can we have > (b) and how many problems are worth being discussed > (c) Is there any challenging issues we missed or neglected? > (d) and what kind of concrete protocol/mechanism/scheme can we come up with? > > Also I would like to point out some related works in IETF for your references. Curretly what we have on the table includes: > Apples' HTTP live streaming > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 > HTTP Streaming Problem Statement > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-001 > Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-http-fullduplex-01 > If there is any related work missing or wrong, please let me know. Also I would like to encourage people to bring your > contributions > and thoughts in draft to this discussion list. Cheers, acbegen. > Regards! > -Qin From sunseawq@huawei.com Mon Sep 27 19:59:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220AB3A6A87 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:59:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.014 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.014 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.560, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 69JkbbLMFsGL for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162BA3A6A64 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F00G1JSB4KU@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:59:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F004WOSB4OP@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:59:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9F002F8SB3HB@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:59:28 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:59:27 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)" , "Luby, Michael" , httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <026101cb5eb9$2a2e28e0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+wJsrGqmNuMsR82UwMoxrg)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 02:59:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+wJsrGqmNuMsR82UwMoxrg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP?Bill: You are absolutly right, with the rising usages, the quality of Internet media and network performance will be great challenged and more likely to degrade due to running out bandwdith. Nowdays HTTP streaming usage is forseen to increase more and more, somewhat due to Olympic Games, US president elections and World Cup Socer. With more and more network connections from millions of people, I am pretty much doubt how the network with existing approach can handle this, what about bottleneck for these network connections, what about bandwidth saturation? How to guarantee the quality of Experience when growing popularity of multiple screen service? Regards! -Qin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb) To: Luby, Michael ; httpstreaming@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? Mike- Excellent points. IMHO, IETF should take the other SDO's work as a baseline. Then, and only the, should the IETF determine if there is anything we can contribute. One area that may be productive is in how a high-concurrency stream (think World Cup Finals) could be efficiently delivered. The current unicast caching methods are all fine and good, but if we try to extend them to cover very high concurrency cases for rate adaptive flows, I suspect that we will be out of bandwidth, particularly in the last mile. I suspect that a multicast solution would have some merit. There is a small bit of work being done in this area at the other SDOs, but I suspect that some of the subject matter experts are at the IETF. I further suspect that the other SDOs recognize that this is an important area that needs to be done properly, and would welcome some good ideas from the IETF. There may be other areas, but let's be real sure that we pick our spots judiciously. We have enough on our plates without making work for ourselves. Bill VerSteeg From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Luby, Michael Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:35 PM To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Cc: Luby, Michael Subject: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? A few comments/thoughts. (1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT HTTP streaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF. There is a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on HTTP streaming (DASH - dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of the people involved are working across these organizations, and liaisons are being sent back and forth to coordinate, etc. For example, they have all adopted the same baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, and features that were developed by MPEG are being rolled back into 3GPP, etc. It is not clear what the IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps may subtract?) The attempt is to create one standard across the different organizations, and not disparate competing standards. (2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good to align with the goal of one common standard. If there is fragmentation, it will not be good for deployment. For example, I've seen emails on this list that suggest that the IETF might go in a different direction and use a different basis other than HTTP, or do something that is based on HTTP but is contrary to these other standards, and it seems that these directions will only confuse/slow down any adoption. (3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use HTTP 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not to call this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is suitable for whatever is being standardized. Mike Luby On 9/27/10 12:00 PM, "httpstreaming-request@ietf.org" wrote: If you have received this digest without all the individual message attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list subscription. To do so, go to https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. Send httpstreaming mailing list submissions to httpstreaming@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to httpstreaming-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at httpstreaming-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of httpstreaming digest..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ httpstreaming mailing list httpstreaming@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming --Boundary_(ID_+wJsrGqmNuMsR82UwMoxrg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MIHhtbG5zPSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LnczLm9yZy9UUi9SRUMtaHRtbDQwIiB4bWxu 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bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9odHRwc3RyZWFtaW5nPEJSPjwvQkxPQ0tRVU9URT48L0JPRFk+PC9I VE1MPg0K --Boundary_(ID_+wJsrGqmNuMsR82UwMoxrg)-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Mon Sep 27 20:12:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF99D3A6814 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:12:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.615 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.128, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sP5VbIw0DIK4 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga01-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7849A3A6C24 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 20:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F0040GSVC57@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:11:37 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F00DJ3SVCZQ@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:11:36 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9F00BNKSVCS7@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:11:36 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:11:35 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Bill Ver Steeg (versteb)" , "Luby, Michael" , httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <028301cb5eba$dc65faf0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_MIklZBkVyE3x3lJCCYF7fQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 03:12:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_MIklZBkVyE3x3lJCCYF7fQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP?Hi, Following the issues raised by Bill, in my memory, it seems some people raised one very similar problem in the DISPATCH mailing list when we discuss there, i.e,How to make HTTP streaming work in the environment that may use a combination of RTP multicast and HTTP unicast? I think this problem is very interesting, becos Multicast audio and video streams are today commonplace in certain parts of the Internet. The vast majority of Internet users, however, are not able to take part of multicast streams because they either lack multicast network connectivity, are located behind firewalls, or have insufficient network resources available. So how to solve this problem, one possible way is to build one RTP to HTTP gateway that makes it possible for an Internet user to take part of multicast video streams. WebSmile is one example of RTP to HTTP gateway which can be used to connect to a multicast capable network. You may be interested in taking a look at http://www10.org/cdrom/papers/pdf/p387.pdf. Any thoughts? Regards! -Qin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Ver Steeg (versteb) To: Luby, Michael ; httpstreaming@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? Mike- Excellent points. IMHO, IETF should take the other SDO's work as a baseline. Then, and only the, should the IETF determine if there is anything we can contribute. One area that may be productive is in how a high-concurrency stream (think World Cup Finals) could be efficiently delivered. The current unicast caching methods are all fine and good, but if we try to extend them to cover very high concurrency cases for rate adaptive flows, I suspect that we will be out of bandwidth, particularly in the last mile. I suspect that a multicast solution would have some merit. There is a small bit of work being done in this area at the other SDOs, but I suspect that some of the subject matter experts are at the IETF. I further suspect that the other SDOs recognize that this is an important area that needs to be done properly, and would welcome some good ideas from the IETF. There may be other areas, but let's be real sure that we pick our spots judiciously. We have enough on our plates without making work for ourselves. Bill VerSteeg From: httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:httpstreaming-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Luby, Michael Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:35 PM To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Cc: Luby, Michael Subject: [httpstreaming] Why a new standard for streaming HTTP? A few comments/thoughts. (1) The SDOs that are already deeply involved in standardizing OTT HTTP streaming have worked hard to stay aligned, e.g., 3GPP, MPEG, OIPF. There is a lot of ongoing coordination between these organizations on HTTP streaming (DASH - dynamic adaptive streaming over HTTP), many of the people involved are working across these organizations, and liaisons are being sent back and forth to coordinate, etc. For example, they have all adopted the same baseline standard that was initiated in 3GPP, and features that were developed by MPEG are being rolled back into 3GPP, etc. It is not clear what the IETF adds in this sense (or perhaps may subtract?) The attempt is to create one standard across the different organizations, and not disparate competing standards. (2) If there is any effort in this area by the IETF, it would be good to align with the goal of one common standard. If there is fragmentation, it will not be good for deployment. For example, I've seen emails on this list that suggest that the IETF might go in a different direction and use a different basis other than HTTP, or do something that is based on HTTP but is contrary to these other standards, and it seems that these directions will only confuse/slow down any adoption. (3) If the IETF decides to go off in a different direction and not use HTTP 1.1 as the basis, to avoid confusion it would be really helpful not to call this HTTP streaming, but instead call it some other name that is suitable for whatever is being standardized. Mike Luby On 9/27/10 12:00 PM, "httpstreaming-request@ietf.org" wrote: If you have received this digest without all the individual message attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list subscription. To do so, go to https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. 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cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9odHRwc3RyZWFtaW5nPEJSPjwvQkxP Q0tRVU9URT48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K --Boundary_(ID_MIklZBkVyE3x3lJCCYF7fQ)-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Mon Sep 27 22:23:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFF33A6C44 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:23:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.228 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.678, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AR4ozvyEMuwI for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409D13A6C3F for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F00HATYA39H@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:08:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9F00CTGYA33C@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:08:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9F00D40YA37G@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:08:27 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:08:26 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Daniel Park Message-id: <02bd01cb5ecb$2f3e86b0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ul8mH11TeIQhSrSN0dG+Jg)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <000601cb59e8$f27af420$ff5afea9@C863D63E94E7457> <02ed01cb5c65$a003d890$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:23:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Ul8mH11TeIQhSrSN0dG+Jg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, Daniel: I agree it is a good idea to craft one gap analysis to compare different works in various SDOs than IETF. Since we haven't done anything in IETF ,I am difficult to see any overlapping with other SDOs,:-). Also in order to stimulate some discussion on this, I would like to share some of my views. In my personal opinion, It seems what other SDOs have standardized is very few. e.g., 3GPP: The only two components developed by 3GPP are Media presentation Description and one streaming media file format. MPEG: MPEG hasn't specified any solution for how to employ HTTP streaming to support MPEG Media except publishing Uses Cases and requirements for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media OIPF: OIPF didn't specify anything except adoption of 3GPP approach. Look at these works in 3GPP/MPEG, it seems they more rely on Browser Client to do many things, e.g., load/reload media presentation description, control local playback, e.g., pause, resume by holding on segement request and reissuing segment request. What they require from network? Nothing. So what they are doing seems only to provide some component like Media presentation description and give some guideline on how to use this component in HTTP streaming to support limited adaptive capability? For the browser client behavior and implentation, I think W3C is right place to standardize browser behavior. Is it enough? Is it efficient? Is it sufficient to support real time streaming? In my opionin, these approaches developed by 3GPP more depend on existing infrastructure and pretty much easy to get some kind of service to market without any invest and effort from network provider and service provider. It works, But how to offer operators a more manageable and sustainable content services environment and, ultimately, lower costs is very painful and challenging. Regards! -Qin ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Park To: Qin Wu Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming Good to see this activity within IETF and highly welcome. As you described below, there are already several SDO activities, and particularly they have their own direction and schedule toward the market. http-adaptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are already implemented in the commercial level. I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordination among the existing activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for each in order not to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will be very confused in the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the train too late unfortunately. For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is the first, then we will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF based on the results of analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to me. Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly. Daniel -- Soohong Daniel Park http://www.soohongp.com 2010/9/25 Qin Wu Hi, folks: Glad to see this discussion list has been created with the support of all of you. Summarized what we discussed in the DISPATCH mailing list on HTTP Streaming, couples of things were well discussed: 1. Does this work worth being done? Most of people speaked up on the list answer Yes since HTTP streaming is becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet Traffic today has been possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct Download. 2. Is there any existing related work ongoing in IETF and other SDO? This questions haven't been explicitly discussed. But I think it is necessary to bring out on the table since we need more input from these existing work and coordination between different group on the same topic is requried. So,Yes, we have lots of related work listed as follows: (a).IETF: HTTP Streaming Problem Statement discuss the issues when delivering high quality contents to browser users. The related draft is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-00 Apples' HTTP live streaming: well known for quite some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes use of a M3U playlist file which serves as manifest and each media file must be formatted as an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio elementary stream. Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly proprietary. However, it works with common media players. The related work is avaiable at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 (b). IETF: Websocket protocol Focus on browsing acceleration, devloped by Hybi WG,As one complementary work, W3C standardize websocket API (c).W3C' focus on client implentation bulit into browser,e.g., video playback support using script and html, push notification support using API, video support using Media fragments URI. (d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming (AHS): introduced recently which defines a Media Presentation Description (MDP) and extensions to the well known ISO Base Media File Format. (e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF): has been published on Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive Streaming" which adopts 3GPP AHS and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. The related work is available at: (f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media : MPEG has published Uses Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and Requirements on HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to standardize a solution that addresses the need on how to employ HTTP Streaming to support MPEG MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for proposals on HTTP streaming of MPEG media. Therefore Standardiztion related to this work needs to be carried out joint by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work and efforts will be contributed to and synchronized with these other relevant groups. 3. Given various onging work in other SDOs than IETF and vairous different implementations developed by industries (e.g.,Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, RealNetwork), what contribution IETF could make?What's the potential work item? what kind of problem do we need to solve? Yes, it is clear IETF folks has expertise to do this work. The potential problems and issues the IETF folks are interested to look at and discuss are: (a). Issues involving real-time considerations and interoperability with other streaming techniques (b). Consideration of transportissues (fairness, delay, etc.) (c). Tweaking HTTP to improve streaming performance (d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a network-friendly way. (e). Coordination with other protocols developed by IETF. (f). Offer better transport better than TCP (like SCTP), better tailored for the needs for streaming over http. (g). how to work in environments that may use a combination of RTP multicast and HTTP unicast. (h). How to deliver streaming contents to the client on any device with the same TV Quality of Experience. As for playlist format and streaming file format, these works have been specified by 3GPP, followed by MPEG/OIPF,probably not the interesting piece for the IETFers If I miss something or you have any further inputs and suggestions/comments, please speak up on the list. Based on these inputs and proposals, I would like to share our thoughts thus far on what a new charter might look like and will post in a separate email to this discussion list. The feedback would be highly useful at this point. BTW: Since we have created separated mailing list for this topic, if you have any comments/ideas/proposals to share, please post them to the new discussion list. Regards! -Qin _______________________________________________ httpstreaming mailing list httpstreaming@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming --Boundary_(ID_Ul8mH11TeIQhSrSN0dG+Jg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hi, Daniel:
I agree it is a good idea to craft one gap analysis to compare different works in various SDOs than IETF.
Since we haven't done anything in IETF ,I am difficult to see any overlapping with other SDOs,:-).
Also in order to stimulate some discussion on this, I would like to share some of my views. In my personal opinion, It seems what other SDOs have standardized is very few. e.g.,
3GPP:
The only two components developed by 3GPP are Media presentation Description and one streaming media file format.
MPEG:
MPEG hasn't specified any solution for how to employ HTTP streaming to support MPEG Media except publishing Uses Cases and requirements for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media
OIPF:
OIPF didn't specify anything except adoption of 3GPP approach.
Look at these works in 3GPP/MPEG, it seems they more rely on Browser Client to do many things, e.g., load/reload media presentation  description, control local playback, e.g., pause, resume by holding on segement request and reissuing segment request. What they require from network? Nothing. So what they are doing seems only to provide some component like Media presentation description and give some guideline on how to use this component
in HTTP streaming to support limited adaptive capability? For the browser client behavior and implentation, I think W3C is right place to standardize browser behavior. Is it enough? Is it efficient? Is it sufficient to support real time streaming?
In my opionin, these approaches developed by 3GPP more depend on existing infrastructure and pretty much easy to get some kind of service to market without any invest and effort from network provider and service provider. It works, But how to offer operators a more manageable and sustainable content services environment and, ultimately, lower costs is very painful and challenging.
 
Regards!
-Qin
----- Original Message -----
To: Qin Wu
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming

Good to see this activity within IETF and highly welcome.

As you described below, there are already several SDO activities, and particularly they have their own direction and schedule toward the market. http-adaptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are already implemented in the commercial level. 

I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordination among the existing activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for each in order not to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will be very confused in the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the train too late unfortunately.

For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is the first, then we will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF based on the results of analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to me. 

Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly.


Daniel
--
Soohong Daniel Park
http://www.soohongp.com


2010/9/25 Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com>
Hi, folks:
Glad to see this discussion list has been created with the support of all of you.
Summarized what we discussed in the DISPATCH mailing list on HTTP Streaming, couples of things were well discussed:
1. Does this work worth being done?
Most of people speaked up on the list answer Yes since HTTP streaming is becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet Traffic today has been  possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct Download.
 
2. Is there any existing related work ongoing in IETF and other SDO?
This questions haven't been explicitly discussed. But I think it is necessary to bring out on the table since we need more input from these existing work
and coordination between different group on the same topic is requried.
 
So,Yes, we have lots of related work listed as follows:
 
(a).IETF:
 
HTTP Streaming Problem Statement
discuss the issues when delivering high quality contents to browser users.
The related draft is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-00
 
Apples' HTTP live streaming:
well known for quite some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes use of a M3U playlist file which serves as manifest and each media file must be formatted as an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio elementary stream.
Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly proprietary. However, it works with common media players.
The related work is avaiable at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04
 
 
(b). IETF: Websocket protocol
Focus on browsing acceleration, devloped by Hybi WG,As one complementary work, W3C standardize websocket API
 
(c).W3C' focus on client implentation bulit into browser,e.g., video playback support using script and html, push notification support using API, video support using Media fragments URI.
 
(d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming (AHS):
introduced recently which defines a Media Presentation Description (MDP)
and extensions to the well known ISO Base Media File Format.
 
(e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF):
has been published on Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive Streaming" which adopts 3GPP AHS and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. The related work is available at:
 
(f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media :
MPEG has published Uses Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and Requirements on HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to standardize a solution that addresses the need on how to employ HTTP Streaming to support MPEG MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for proposals on HTTP streaming of MPEG media.
Therefore Standardiztion related to this work needs to be carried out joint by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work and efforts will be contributed to and synchronized
with these other relevant groups.
 
 
3. Given various onging work in other SDOs than IETF and vairous different implementations developed by industries (e.g.,Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, RealNetwork), what contribution IETF could make?What's the potential work item? what kind of problem do we need to solve?
 
Yes, it is clear IETF folks has expertise to do this work. The potential problems and issues the IETF folks are interested to look at and discuss are:
(a). Issues involving real-time considerations and interoperability with other streaming techniques
(b). Consideration of transportissues (fairness, delay, etc.)
(c). Tweaking HTTP to improve streaming performance
(d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a network-friendly way.
(e). Coordination with other protocols developed by IETF.
(f). Offer better transport better than TCP (like SCTP), better tailored for the needs for streaming over http.
(g). how to work in environments that may use a combination of RTP multicast and HTTP unicast.
(h). How to deliver streaming contents to the client on any device with the same TV Quality of Experience.
As for playlist format and streaming file format, these works have been specified by 3GPP, followed by MPEG/OIPF,probably not the interesting piece for the IETFers
 
If I miss something or you have any further inputs and suggestions/comments, please speak up on the list.
Based on these inputs and proposals, I would like to share our thoughts thus far on what  a new charter might
look like and will post in a separate email to this discussion list. The feedback would be highly useful at this point.
 
BTW:
Since we have created separated mailing list for this topic, if you have any comments/ideas/proposals to share, please post
them to the new discussion  list.
 
Regards!
-Qin
 
 
 

_______________________________________________
httpstreaming mailing list
httpstreaming@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming




--Boundary_(ID_Ul8mH11TeIQhSrSN0dG+Jg)-- From stockhammer@nomor.de Mon Sep 27 22:58:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91CC3A6C25 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:58:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.548 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GMk3GZBThl6x for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mo-p00-ob.rzone.de (mo-p00-ob.rzone.de [81.169.146.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF75C3A6B23 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 22:58:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1285653539; l=30470; s=domk; d=nomor.de; h=To:References:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Content-Type:Mime-Version: Subject:X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH; bh=Zi3dYzL3Xn++oSeHnxB36TeaT/M=; b=g9v61WXSi+2Cij1ZPD8FxDfR98MZWdDMH8FpGGKXQ7gnIyHu3zhDTsfC29Z0RisJQZy fMHds3Bfrw4jKOI9qAh12ueEGw3QdbMpvOgpuGILts5JddLns3Saf0eEaUMzgHc08i/UI bGLXpkga3+Hx49ofCX8o7PQdBV5xfKNhWLk= X-RZG-AUTH: :P3gLdkugevKirJkjH/RoTtk5THWq6nlFgKpnuMPeiu1/+lsZduIVAtYpmXvffjo= X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Received: from [68.245.171.115] (ip-109-85-105-194.web.vodafone.de [109.85.105.194]) by post.strato.de (fruni mo9) (RZmta 23.5) with ESMTP id m02af1m8S4fL6p ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:58:54 +0200 (MEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-133-256172988 From: Thomas Stockhammer X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <02bd01cb5ecb$2f3e86b0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 07:58:54 +0200 Message-Id: <77C2CE3A-88BF-4199-BE32-D343D981FBDF@nomor.de> References: <000601cb59e8$f27af420$ff5afea9@C863D63E94E7457> <02ed01cb5c65$a003d890$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> <02bd01cb5ecb$2f3e86b0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> To: Qin Wu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:58:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail-133-256172988 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Dear Qin, you are absolutely right that 3GPP has exclusively and purposely focused = on formats, that can be delivered through standard HTTP infrastructures = (CDNs, HTTP servers, HTTP proxies, etc.). The specification focusses on = describing the relationship and formats of "segments" and segments are = resources that are made available to the client as http-URIs. This = enables service providers to use these formats together with existing = web cache infrastructures. There are many many good reasons for this and they had been discussed a = year ago on the AVT mailing list when Apple submitted their draft. There = were also opinions that RTP/UDP is good enough for streaming and = streaming over HTTP is not the way to go. However, there is always a simple answer to why Adaptive Streaming over = HTTP as today is justified and you have it in you e-mail below as well: = "It works!" And maybe even more important: "It is heavily used" The decoupling of the video streaming application from a dedicated = service and delivery infrastructure is what makes it so interesting.=20 If there is a general problem on how to massively scalable deliver data = through HTTP, then this problem seem to be non-specific to streaming, = isn't it? And please consider that there are ways to feed HTTP caches = with protocols other than HTTP/1.1, such as FLUTE. Best regards Thomas On Sep 28, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Qin Wu wrote: > Hi, Daniel: > I agree it is a good idea to craft one gap analysis to compare = different works in various SDOs than IETF. > Since we haven't done anything in IETF ,I am difficult to see any = overlapping with other SDOs,:-). > Also in order to stimulate some discussion on this, I would like to = share some of my views. In my personal opinion, It seems what other SDOs = have standardized is very few. e.g., > 3GPP: > The only two components developed by 3GPP are Media presentation = Description and one streaming media file format. > MPEG: > MPEG hasn't specified any solution for how to employ HTTP streaming to = support MPEG Media except publishing Uses Cases and requirements for = HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media > OIPF: > OIPF didn't specify anything except adoption of 3GPP approach. > Look at these works in 3GPP/MPEG, it seems they more rely on Browser = Client to do many things, e.g., load/reload media presentation = description, control local playback, e.g., pause, resume by holding on = segement request and reissuing segment request. What they require from = network? Nothing. So what they are doing seems only to provide some = component like Media presentation description and give some guideline on = how to use this component > in HTTP streaming to support limited adaptive capability? For the = browser client behavior and implentation, I think W3C is right place to = standardize browser behavior. Is it enough? Is it efficient? Is it = sufficient to support real time streaming? > In my opionin, these approaches developed by 3GPP more depend on = existing infrastructure and pretty much easy to get some kind of service = to market without any invest and effort from network provider and = service provider. It works, But how to offer operators a more manageable = and sustainable content services environment and, ultimately, lower = costs is very painful and challenging. > =20 > Regards! > -Qin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Daniel Park > To: Qin Wu > Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on = HTTP Streaming >=20 > Good to see this activity within IETF and highly welcome. >=20 > As you described below, there are already several SDO activities, and = particularly they have their own direction and schedule toward the = market. http-adaptive streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are = already implemented in the commercial level.=20 >=20 > I believe, IETF should pay attention to the coordination among the = existing activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for = each in order not to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will = be very confused in the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the = train too late unfortunately. >=20 > For doing that, gap analysis on the existing methods is the first, = then we will be able to see which areas should be done by IETF based on = the results of analysis. This direction seems very acceptable to me.=20 >=20 > Anyway, I support, and hope to move it forward quickly. >=20 >=20 > Daniel > --=20 > Soohong Daniel Park > http://www.soohongp.com >=20 >=20 > 2010/9/25 Qin Wu > Hi, folks: > Glad to see this discussion list has been created with the support of = all of you. > Summarized what we discussed in the DISPATCH mailing list on HTTP = Streaming, couples of things were well discussed: > 1. Does this work worth being done? > Most of people speaked up on the list answer Yes since HTTP streaming = is becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet Traffic today has = been possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct Download. > =20 > 2. Is there any existing related work ongoing in IETF and other SDO? > This questions haven't been explicitly discussed. But I think it is = necessary to bring out on the table since we need more input from these = existing work > and coordination between different group on the same topic is = requried. > =20 > So,Yes, we have lots of related work listed as follows: > =20 > (a).IETF: > =20 > HTTP Streaming Problem Statement > discuss the issues when delivering high quality contents to browser = users. > The related draft is available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-00 > =20 > Apples' HTTP live streaming:=20 > well known for quite some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes = use of a M3U playlist file which serves as manifest and each media file = must be formatted as an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio = elementary stream. > Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly proprietary. = However, it works with common media players.=20 > The related work is avaiable at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 > =20 > =20 > (b). IETF: Websocket protocol > Focus on browsing acceleration, devloped by Hybi WG,As one = complementary work, W3C standardize websocket API > =20 > (c).W3C' focus on client implentation bulit into browser,e.g., video = playback support using script and html, push notification support using = API, video support using Media fragments URI. > =20 > (d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming (AHS):=20 > introduced recently which defines a Media Presentation Description = (MDP)=20 > and extensions to the well known ISO Base Media File Format. > =20 > (e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF):=20 > has been published on Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive = Streaming" which adopts 3GPP AHS and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport = Stream. The related work is available at: > =20 > (f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media :=20 > MPEG has published Uses Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and = Requirements on HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to = standardize a solution that addresses the need on how to employ HTTP = Streaming to support MPEG MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for = proposals on HTTP streaming of MPEG media. > Therefore Standardiztion related to this work needs to be carried out = joint by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work and efforts will be = contributed to and synchronized=20 > with these other relevant groups. > =20 > =20 > 3. Given various onging work in other SDOs than IETF and vairous = different implementations developed by industries (e.g.,Apple, = Microsoft, Adobe, RealNetwork), what contribution IETF could make?What's = the potential work item? what kind of problem do we need to solve? > =20 > Yes, it is clear IETF folks has expertise to do this work. The = potential problems and issues the IETF folks are interested to look at = and discuss are: > (a). Issues involving real-time considerations and interoperability = with other streaming techniques > (b). Consideration of transportissues (fairness, delay, etc.) > (c). Tweaking HTTP to improve streaming performance > (d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a network-friendly way. > (e). Coordination with other protocols developed by IETF. > (f). Offer better transport better than TCP (like SCTP), better = tailored for the needs for streaming over http. > (g). how to work in environments that may use a combination of RTP = multicast and HTTP unicast. > (h). How to deliver streaming contents to the client on any device = with the same TV Quality of Experience. > As for playlist format and streaming file format, these works have = been specified by 3GPP, followed by MPEG/OIPF,probably not the = interesting piece for the IETFers > =20 > If I miss something or you have any further inputs and = suggestions/comments, please speak up on the list. > Based on these inputs and proposals, I would like to share our = thoughts thus far on what a new charter might > look like and will post in a separate email to this discussion list. = The feedback would be highly useful at this point. > =20 > BTW: > Since we have created separated mailing list for this topic, if you = have any comments/ideas/proposals to share, please post > them to the new discussion list. > =20 > Regards! > -Qin > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming --- Dr. Thomas Stockhammer (CEO) || stockhammer@nomor.de || phone +49 89 = 978980 02 || cell +491725702667 || http://www.nomor-research.com Nomor Research GmbH - Sitz der Gesellschaft: M=FCnchen - = Registergericht: M=FCnchen, HRB 165856 =96 Umsatzsteuer-ID: DE238047637 = - Gesch=E4ftsf=FChrer: Dr. Thomas Stockhammer, Dr. Ingo Viering. --Apple-Mail-133-256172988 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dear Qin,

you are absolutely = right that 3GPP has exclusively and purposely focused on formats, that = can be delivered through standard HTTP infrastructures (CDNs, HTTP = servers, HTTP proxies, etc.). The specification focusses on describing = the relationship and formats of "segments" and segments are resources = that are made available to the client as http-URIs. This enables service = providers to use these formats together with existing web cache = infrastructures.

There are many many good = reasons for this and they had been discussed a year ago on the AVT = mailing list when Apple submitted their draft. There were also opinions = that RTP/UDP is good enough for streaming and streaming over HTTP is not = the way to go.

However, there is always a = simple answer to why Adaptive Streaming over HTTP as today is justified = and you have it in you e-mail below as well: "It works!" And maybe even = more important: "It is heavily used"

The = decoupling of the video streaming application from a dedicated service = and delivery infrastructure is what makes it so = interesting. 

If there is a general = problem on how to massively scalable deliver data through HTTP, then = this problem seem to be non-specific to streaming, isn't it? And please = consider that there are ways to feed HTTP caches with protocols other = than HTTP/1.1, such as FLUTE.

Best = regards

Thomas




On Sep 28, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Qin Wu = wrote:

Hi, Daniel:
I agree it is a good idea = to craft one gap analysis to compare different works in various SDOs = than IETF.
Since we haven't done anything in IETF ,I am = difficult to see any overlapping with other SDOs,:-).
Also in = order to stimulate some discussion on this, I would like to share = some of my views. In my personal opinion, It seems what other = SDOs have standardized is very few. = e.g.,
3GPP:
The only two components developed by = 3GPP are Media presentation Description and one streaming media file = format.
MPEG:
MPEG hasn't specified any solution for = how to employ HTTP streaming to support MPEG Media except publishing = Uses Cases and requirements for HTTP Streaming of MPEG = Media
OIPF:
OIPF didn't specify anything except = adoption of 3GPP approach.
Look at these works in 3GPP/MPEG, = it seems they more rely on Browser Client to do many things, e.g., = load/reload media presentation  description, control local = playback, e.g., pause, resume by holding on segement request = and reissuing segment request. What they require from network? = Nothing. So what they are doing seems only to provide some component = like Media presentation description and give some guideline on how to = use this component
in HTTP streaming to support limited = adaptive capability? For the browser client behavior and implentation, I = think W3C is right place to standardize browser behavior. Is it enough? = Is it efficient? Is it sufficient to support real time = streaming?
In my opionin, these approaches developed by 3GPP = more depend on existing infrastructure and pretty much easy to = get some kind of service to market without any invest and = effort from network provider and service provider. It works, But = how to offer operators a more manageable and sustainable content = services environment and, ultimately, lower costs is very painful and = challenging.
 
Regards!
-Qin
----- Original Message = -----
Sent: Saturday,= September 25, 2010 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] = Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP = Streaming

Good to see this activity within IETF = and highly welcome.

As you described below, = there are already several SDO activities, and particularly they have = their own direction and schedule toward the market. http-adaptive = streaming (MS) and http-live streaming (Apple) are already implemented = in the commercial level. 

I believe, IETF = should pay attention to the coordination among the existing = activities/solutions, and particularly clarify the role for each in = order not to make a duplication. Otherwise, this activity will be very = confused in the market. Why ? It is because IETF rides in the train too = late unfortunately.

For doing that, gap = analysis on the existing methods is the first, then we will be able to = see which areas should be done by IETF based on the results of analysis. = This direction seems very acceptable to = me. 

Anyway, I support, and hope to move = it forward = quickly.


Daniel
-- 
Soohong Daniel = Park
http://www.soohongp.com

2010/9/25 Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com>
=
Hi, folks:
Glad to see this discussion list has been created with = the support of all of you.
Summarized what we discussed in the DISPATCH mailing list on HTTP = Streaming, couples of things were well = discussed:
1. Does this = work worth being done?
Most of people speaked up on the list answer Yes since HTTP = streaming is becoming more prevalent, large part of Internet Traffic = today has been  possessed by HTTP Streaming, CDN and Direct = Download.
 
2. Is there any existing related work ongoing in IETF and other = SDO?
This questions = haven't been explicitly discussed. But I think it is necessary to bring = out on the table since we need more input from these existing = work
and coordination = between different group on the same topic is = requried.
 
So,Yes, we have lots of related work listed as = follows:
 
(a).IETF:
 
HTTP Streaming Problem = Statement
discuss the issues when delivering high quality contents to = browser users.
The related draft is available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-= 00
 
Apples' HTTP live streaming: 
well known for quite = some time and implemented in the iPhone. It makes use of a M3U playlist = file which serves as manifest and each media file must be formatted as = an MPEG-2 Transport Stream or an MPEG-2 audio elementary = stream.
Movstreaming: is already deployed but also highly = proprietary. However, it works with common media players. 
The related work is = avaiable at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04
 
 
(b). IETF: Websocket = protocol
Focus on browsing = acceleration, devloped by Hybi WG,As one complementary work, W3C = standardize websocket = API
 
(c).W3C' focus on client = implentation bulit into browser,e.g., video playback support using = script and html, push notification support using API, video support = using Media fragments URI.
 
(d).3GPPs' Adaptive HTTP Streaming (AHS): 
introduced recently = which defines a Media Presentation Description (MDP) 
and extensions to the = well known ISO Base Media File = Format.
 
(e).Open IPTV Forum (OIPF): 
has been published on = Sep 7th, 2010 including "HTTP Adaptive Streaming" which adopts 3GPP AHS = and adds support for MPEG-2 Transport Stream. The related work is = available at:
 
(f).MPEG' HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media : 
MPEG has published Uses = Cases for HTTP Streaming of MPEG Media and Requirements on HTTP = Streaming of MPEG Media. The next stpe is to standardize a solution that = addresses the need on how to employ HTTP Streaming to support MPEG = MEdia.Therefore MPGE issued a call for proposals on HTTP streaming of = MPEG media.
Therefore Standardiztion related to this work needs to = be carried out joint by IETF/W3C/3GPP . Overlapping work and = efforts will be contributed to and synchronized 
with these other = relevant = groups.
 
 
3. Given various onging work in other SDOs than = IETF and vairous different implementations developed by industries = (e.g.,Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, RealNetwork), what contribution IETF = could make?What's the potential = work item? what kind of problem do we need to = solve?
 
Yes, it is clear IETF folks has expertise to do this work. The = potential problems and issues the IETF folks are interested to look = at and discuss are:
(a). = Issues involving real-time considerations and interoperability with = other streaming techniques
(b). Consideration of transportissues (fairness, delay, = etc.)
(c). Tweaking HTTP = to improve streaming performance
(d).Guidance on how to use HTTP in a network-friendly = way.
(e). Coordination = with other protocols developed by IETF.
(f). Offer better transport better than TCP = (like SCTP), better tailored for the needs for streaming over = http.
(g). how to work = in environments that may use a combination of RTP multicast and HTTP = unicast.
(h). How to deliver streaming contents to the client on any = device with the same TV Quality of Experience.
As for playlist format and streaming file = format, these works have been specified by 3GPP, followed by = MPEG/OIPF,probably not the interesting piece for the = IETFers
 
If I miss something or you have any further inputs and = suggestions/comments, please speak up on the = list.
Based on these = inputs and proposals, I would like to share our thoughts thus far on = what  a new charter might
look like and will post in a separate email to this discussion = list. The feedback would be highly useful at this = point.
 
BTW:
Since we = have created separated mailing list for this topic, if you have any = comments/ideas/proposals to share, please post
them to the new discussion  = list.
 
Regards!
-Qin
 
 
 

_______________________________________________
httpstreamin= g mailing list
httpstreaming@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming<= br>



___________________________________________= ____
httpstreaming mailing list
httpstreaming@ietf.org
https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming

stockhammer@nomor.de || = phone +49 89 978980 02 || cell +491725702667 || http://www.nomor-research.com
Nomor Research GmbH  -  Sitz = der Gesellschaft: M=C3=BCnchen - Registergericht: M=C3=BCnchen, HRB = 165856 =E2=80=93 Umsatzsteuer-ID: DE238047637 - Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer:= Dr. Thomas Stockhammer, Dr. Ingo Viering.



= --Apple-Mail-133-256172988-- From sunseawq@huawei.com Mon Sep 27 23:41:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A003A6B28 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:41:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.891 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.252, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_27=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ukP1FWE7sel0 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga03-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.66]) by core3.amsl.com 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Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ipiR2+ctidbT1Eg63ax97w)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <000601cb59e8$f27af420$ff5afea9@C863D63E94E7457> <02ed01cb5c65$a003d890$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> <02bd01cb5ecb$2f3e86b0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> <77C2CE3A-88BF-4199-BE32-D343D981FBDF@nomor.de> Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Discussion summarization in Dispatch on HTTP Streaming X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 06:41:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ipiR2+ctidbT1Eg63ax97w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 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ESMTP id A49473A6D78 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.643 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.643 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrqjSrGid3ih for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-out.google.com (smtp-out.google.com [74.125.121.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05FB93A6D5D for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.81]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o8S83wW3017531 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:58 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1285661039; bh=oIPHFDpr1yOrcUZCVavvxcqsbMQ=; 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fTtef3Vj8ZQ8+MTkPCzw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.27.2 with SMTP id a2mr6258706aga.56.1285661035531; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.213.18 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> References: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:03:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Wenbo Zhu To: httpstreaming@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6509cca530c6804914d4947 X-System-Of-Record: true Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:03:20 -0000 --0016e6509cca530c6804914d4947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thanks for putting all these together, and I definitely see the value in standardizing media streaming semantics on top of HTTP. A few meta-comments related to the subject of "HTTP streaming" 1. focus on HTTP and exclude any ambiguity that a different transport may be considered; 2. make it clear that this work is agnostic to emerging Web protocols/specs that are fundamentally browser-oriented; 3. avoid any attempt to extend the basic HTTP semantics (e.g. in conflict with httpbis) - Wenbo On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Qin Wu wrote: > Hi, folks: > We have planned to have a BarBOF in time for Beijing IETF meeting. > > The primary goal of this BarBOF is to making sure that people agree on what > problem (or problems) need to be solved; > Some of these problems or interesting issues are summarized in my previous > email available at > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html) > which was raised by people who are interested > in HTTP Streaming in the DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this new > discussion list. > The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement > draft which I have updated recently > ( > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-01.txt > ). > > Another goal is to make sure we have not any overlapping with other SDO. > > In order to stimulate the discussion toward these two goals, I have crafted > intial charter skeleton. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00003.html > > I would like us to center around these problems we listed and the intial > charter skeleton I drafted to figure out > (a) what kind of use cases can we have > (b) and how many problems are worth being discussed > (c) Is there any challenging issues we missed or neglected? > (d) and what kind of concrete protocol/mechanism/scheme can we come up > with? > > Also I would like to point out some related works in IETF for your > references. Curretly what we have on the table includes: > Apples' HTTP live streaming > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 > HTTP Streaming Problem Statement > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-001 > Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-http-fullduplex-01 > If there is any related work missing or wrong, please let me know. Also I > would like to encourage people to bring your contributions > and thoughts in draft to this discussion list. > > Regards! > -Qin > > > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > > --0016e6509cca530c6804914d4947 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for putting all these together, and I definitely see the value in st= andardizing media streaming semantics on top of HTTP.=A0

A few meta-comments related to the subject of "HTTP streaming"
1. focus on HTTP and exclude any ambiguity that a different transport = may be considered;
2. make it clear that this work is agnostic to= emerging Web protocols/specs that are=A0fundamentally=A0browser-oriented;<= /div>
3. avoid any attempt to extend the basic HTTP semantics (e.g. in confl= ict with httpbis)

- Wenbo

<= br>
On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Qin Wu <sunseawq@huawei.com= > wrote:
Hi, folks:
We have planned to have a BarBOF in tim= e for=20 Beijing IETF meeting.
=A0
The primary goal of this BarBOF is to m= aking=20 sure that people agree on what problem (or problems) need to be solved;=20
Some of these problems or interesting i= ssues=20 are summarized in my previous email available at
(http://www= .ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html)=20 which was=A0raised by people who are= =20 interested
in HTTP Streaming in the=A0 DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this new= =20 discussion list.
The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement
draft which I have updated recently=20
=A0
Another goal is to make sure we have no= t any=20 overlapping with other SDO.
=A0
In order to stimulate the discussion to= ward=20 these two=A0goals, I have crafted intial charter skeleton.
http://www.= ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00003.html
=A0
I would like us to center around these= =20 problems we listed and the intial charter skeleton I drafted to figure out= =20
(a) what kind of use cases can we=A0 ha= ve=20
(b) and how many problems are worth bei= ng=20 discussed
(c) Is there any challenging issues we = missed=20 or neglected?
(d) and what kind of concrete=20 protocol/mechanism/scheme can we=A0 come up with?
=A0
Also I would like to point out=A0some= =20 related works in IETF for your references. Curretly what we have on the tab= le=20 includes:
Apples' HTTP live streaming<= /div>
HTTP Streaming Problem Statement=
Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP=
If there is any related work missing or= wrong,=20 please let me know. Also I would like to encourage people to bring your=20 contributions
and thoughts in draft to this discussio= n=20 list.
=A0
Regards!
-Qin


_______________________________________________
httpstreaming mailing list
httpstreaming@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming


--0016e6509cca530c6804914d4947-- From ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk Tue Sep 28 10:25:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186A63A6CB9 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:25:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.707 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.707 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.308, BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ego8wJKglCOG for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailex.mailcore.me (mailex.mailcore.me [94.136.40.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F543A6B6C for ; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host1.cachelogic.com ([212.44.43.80] helo=dhcp-105-devlan.cachelogic.com) by mail11.atlas.pipex.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P0dwF-00021G-Ol; Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:26:00 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Ben Niven-Jenkins X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <02f501cb5c66$d61b15f0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:25:59 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <33C6E7E4-A986-479C-A2EE-C1A5D58A225E@niven-jenkins.co.uk> References: <02f501cb5c66$d61b15f0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> To: Qin Wu , httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Mailcore-Auth: 9600544 X-Mailcore-Domain: 172912 Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Charter Skeleton draft- Your thoughts are requested X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:25:22 -0000 Qin, Colleagues, Reading the draft charter below and = draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-02 it is not clear to me what = the intended purpose of a httpstreaming working group would be, in other = words what specific problems (or problem areas) would an httpstreaming = group address? Both the wu-http-streaming draft and the draft charter put forward a = number of perceived problems with 'HTTP Streaming' in general but it is = not clear which of them, if any, it is intended that a httpstreaming = group work on. For example, from the draft/charter I could take away the impression = that the intent is to: - Identify shortcoming in the HTTP protocol itself and improvements to = HTTP that could make HTTP based streaming "better" (for some definition = of "better") - Specify a different protocol to HTTP for streaming data - Specify a different transport layer for HTTP to avoid the problems = raised in wu-http-streaming caused by TCP - Specify how an application running over HTTP should operate in order = to be able to implement HTTP streaming and avoid certain = challenges/issues etc - all the above - something entirely different. I think the charter needs to be much more tightly focussed on what areas = will/will not be in scope. This should make it much easier to assess = whether the proposed work is something that is complementary to or = competing with other efforts in other bodies and where any = commonalities/synergies exist. Some specific comments of the draft charter text in-line On 25 Sep 2010, at 05:05, Qin Wu wrote: > -------- > Goal: > Focus on work which will address relevant issues facing the network = operator community today. > In particular an effort will be made to address gaps and issues in = currently understood best practices for > forwarding, control plane, and management plane and seek network = capability to control and manage HTTP Streaming. This is very vague. "forwarding, control plane, and management plane" at = which 'layer'? Is this talking about improving the actual network = routers/switches, interaction with application (e.g. HTTP) proxy caches, = how to provision & manage an actual Streaming service, etc. =20 > Background: > Streaming service is described as transmission of data over network as = a steady continuous stream, allowing playback > to proceed while subsequent data is being received, which may utilize = multiple transport protocols for data delivery. > HTTP streaming refers to the streaming service wherein the HTTP = protocol is used for basic transport of media data. > One example of HTTP streaming is progressive download streaming which = allows the user to access content using > existing infrastructure before the data transfer is complete. > =20 > Since HTTP streaming takes Existing HTTP as data transport (i.e., HTTP = 1.1) and HTTP is operated over TCP, it is > much more likely to cause major packet drop-outs and greater delay = due to TCP with the characteristic which keeps > TCP trying to resend the lost packet before sending anything further. "it is much more likely to cause major packet drop-outs and greater = delay" compared to what? Any problem here would appear not to lie with HTTP itself (except that = it has chosen TCP as its transport protocol), many other streaming = protocols such as RTMP, RTSP, MMS etc. support TCP based transport, do = these suffer from the same issues? If not what is special about the HTTP = case? > One way to reduce major packet drop-outs is to > introduce media segmentation capability in the network behind media = encoder, i.e., using segmenter to split the input > streaming media into a serial of small chunks and meanwhile creating = manifest file containing reference to each chunks. I don;t see how media segmentation reduces packet drops. I can see that = it may allow you to reduce the impact if you have multiple connections = in parallel as a packet drop would only block one of the open sockets = and the others could continue to receive data. > Allowing such streaming media segmentation can mitigate great delays = and breakups during streaming playout. Is it actually the media segmentation that mitigate the delays & = breakups or the fact it is being combined with adaptive bit rate = delivery? > =20 > Why HTTP Streaming: > As the HTTP protocol is widely used on the Internet as data transport, = it has since been employed extensively for the delivery of multimedia = content. A significant part of the > Internet traffic today formly generated by P2P application has been = eclipsed by streaming, CDN and direct download. > Another trend is the growing popularity of connected devices like = Smartphones, TVs, PCs and tablets is raising interest > in multi-screen services that enable consumers to access the same = media content and quality of experience (QoE) on any > device, anytime and anywhere. Since almost all the connected devices = have browser support, but not all of them can > afford high CPU load and batteries draining as TVs or PCs, it is = obviously a best choice to use HTTP streaming to > support multi-screen video delivery. > =20 > Problems: (The challenging of the existing work on HTTP streaming) > With media segmentation support, existing streaming technology (e.g., = progressive download streaming) > is characterized as client based pull schemes and more relies on = client to handle buffer and playback during > download. However streaming long duration and high quality media over = the internet has several unique Challenges: > =96 Client polling for each new data in chunks using HTTP requests = is not efficient to deliver high-quality video content across the = Internet I think it may be worthwhile to separate "efficient" from "good enough". = Polling may not be efficient in terms of the number of = requests/responses during playout but is it so inefficient that it = actually affects the performance of a client or the scale of a server = (e.g. because requests may become synchronised) performing HTTP = streaming? > =96 Segmentation capability requires over-utilizing CPU and = bandwidth resources, which may not be a desirable and effective way to = improve the quality of streaming media delivery I don't really understand why segmentation itself would lead to = over-utilized CPU or bandwidth resources. > =96 Lack of QoS guarantee on the packet switching based Internet , = the quality of Internet media streaming may significant degrade due to = rising usage This may be true but is the intent for an httpstreaming group to do = something about it? > =96 Experience burstiness or other dynamics changes due to = bandwidth fluctuations and heterogeneous handover. Is this not a generic issue not specific to HTTP streaming? > =96 Impossible to fast-forward through any part of a streaming = contents until it is stored on the user's device Is this really a problem with HTTP streaming or more with the currently = defined manifest & media file formats not supporting an equivalent of a = trick play file? > Given these challenges, the typical user experience can be limited by = delayed startups, poor quality, buffering delays, and inadequate = playback control. How much of these are down to HTTP specifically versus those shared by = most/all other streaming protocols? Does HTTP perform significantly = worse than other streaming protocols in these areas? > =20 > Scope: > a. Exploration of problem inherent in HTTP streaming. > =20 > b.Proposals for new approaches to operational challenges metioned = above. > In order to address those above challenges effectively , the group may = consider to design and specify =20 > network based HTTP Streaming schemes/protocol that will offer = efficient and network-friendly transport > with QoS/QoE guaranteed and the feedback on quality of data delivery. This may be somewhat premature until it is clearer where the real issues = with HTTP Streaming lie - i.e. do they require a new application = specification, a tweak to an existing application specification or are = they solvable in other ways - e.g. choice of a different transport = protocol. > HTTP Streaming applications can rely > on the server side to detect the user's connection speed and select = the streaming contents with the appropriate > encoding rate for smooth, uninterrupted playback. Also it can choose = to switch between push or pull using the > better transport. I am not sure why the server side should detect the user's connection. > As a simple example, the server keeps on pushing data chunks to the = client and the client communicates > with the server over a full-duplex TCP connection to convey feedback = on quality of data delivery. And then the server > tunes the parameters such as buffer size and bandwidth according to = QoS feedback and network load. In case of streaming > changes or failover, the server may send notification event to the = client. Though there are existing server push schemes > (e.g., Server Sent Event, XMLHttpRequest, iFrame,WebSocket), however = they might be lack capability for > providing feedback on quality of data delivery. I would not include an example solution in the charter - if definition = of a new application/protocol is in scope then state that, but giving = example solutions tends to confuse & distract during discussions/BoFs = more than it helps IME. >=20 > Non-Goal: > Playlist format and Streaming file format should be beyond scope of = this charter. It's not clear to me how this marries with Scope (b) that implies a new = HTTP streaming application may be specified by the group, but that the = companion manifest & media file formats won't be specified. Maybe this = split will become clearer as the other items I raise are addressed. Regards Ben From sunseawq@huawei.com Wed Sep 29 01:54:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092263A6C77 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:54:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.602 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.856, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EfM86V5+8kM7 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from szxga05-in.huawei.com (unknown [119.145.14.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A593A6B23 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 01:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9I00INX3GEO7@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:55:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L9I00I4G3GE8Y@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:55:26 +0800 (CST) Received: from w53375 ([10.138.84.79]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L9I00JVB3GDOE@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for httpstreaming@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:55:26 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 16:55:28 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Ben Niven-Jenkins , httpstreaming@ietf.org Message-id: <048601cb5fb4$10d4e1d0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3664 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3664 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <02f501cb5c66$d61b15f0$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> <33C6E7E4-A986-479C-A2EE-C1A5D58A225E@niven-jenkins.co.uk> Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Charter Skeleton draft- Your thoughts are requested X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 08:54:57 -0000 SGksIEJlbjoNClRoYW5rIGZvciB5b3VyIHZhbHVhYmxlIGlucHV0IGFuZCBjb21tZW50cy4gSW4g bXkgcGVyc29uYWwgb3Bpbmlvbiwgb3VyIGdvYWwgaXMgdG8gdGFsayBhYm91dCBob3cgdG8gZW5y aWNoIG5ldHdvcmsgY2FwYWJpbGl0eQ0KdG8gd2VsbCBjb250cm9sIGFuZCBtYW5hZ2UgSFRUUCBz dHJlYW1pbmcgYW5kIGhvdyB0byB1dGlsaXplIEhUVFAgc3RyZWFtaW5nIHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgbXVs dGlwbGUgc2NyZWVuIHNlcnZpY2UuIFRoZSBRb1MvUW9FIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50DQppcyBhIGJpZyBj 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ZmlsZSBmb3JtYXRzIGFzIG9uZSBleGlzdGluZyBjb21wb25lbnQuIFdlIGFyZSBub3QgaW50ZW5k aW5nIHRvIGJ1aWxkIGFueSBuZXcgY29tcG9uZW50IGxpa2UgbWFuaWZlc3QgJiBtZWRpYSBmaWxl IGZvcm1hdHMuDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMNCkJlbg0KDQo= From davidbryan@gmail.com Wed Sep 29 11:58:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900413A6901 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 11:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.604 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.604 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.373, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKV00IZ61RRY for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 11:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347F23A6C7B for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 11:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wyi11 with SMTP id 11so1241330wyi.31 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 11:59:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:sender:received :in-reply-to:references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=t8a9Ciuqebpn1fQy3MoHVeKroz8tNc8/8tfTBDrVG3E=; b=e39ACKY/0JCUW3d2zQQjE4pCmsg98yQOt0VJlqK8xOdFEELWpATjdyyhOEb7eSw/+L /prUUSNfpoxRDEN1UzLAGmrWlRVGIbJ9Atg7ISNAvBOh0px3ICQTlQfoyPjyUDrBxBgZ pm20LoWIGhnesbOchYcYMuXqdUV5+cY45H+Cw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=tAqyu5dyFZq7VrBzc+HgIeu0AXy4yNECWAUuSmJccaY6PMsV21o0mdtNX+paXi3D8V uSQ7qnHmbLV1jpPdgxT+QxGeJnRTgQGk4oKGMFF1Yn/MpPDCCJQdp4m9HW8MVdTiMb2i NQjffsDK/lJ2e0k6klVapD9VbIIrAPPcpK4fM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.23.4 with SMTP id u4mr1798515weu.96.1285786749447; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 11:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Sender: davidbryan@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.86.78 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Sep 2010 11:59:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> References: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 14:59:09 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: oEwY_DAcGd2G0G3Ta3U-gjC6MxU Message-ID: From: "David A. Bryan" To: Qin Wu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:58:27 -0000 So we have had a number of threads, some about possible work, some about details in the charter, etc. I think it is great to start thinking about a possible charter if this work turns into a WG, and some good reference drafts (thanks to Qin and the folks from Apple for putting these together), but I think another way to look at this might be to at least initially take a step back and see if the folks on the list can take a stab at some more basic questions. I think that was perhaps what Qin was getting at when we started this thread, but it is always good to refocus. I'll ask two really basic questions to the folks on list, and let's see what the opinions may be, and maybe we can move forward from there. Personally, I think that if we have a bar BoF, focusing just on these two basic questions (ok, one is a compound question, but one is basic!) might be a good way to move forward. I expect we'll have some VERY different answers. Remember that HTTP streaming may mean different things to people, and might even be the wrong term...but these are the things we need to try to figure out. So the two big questions: 1) On the topic of this list/HTTP streaming, what do you think is the problem/problems/scenario we should be looking at? 2) What other standards body work in this space are you aware of (including IETF work), and how do you think any new work would fit in (or not!) with the answer above? Yep, these are really broad, but to me, they seem to be at the heart of what we need to figure out to move forward. I think that at the beginning of this thread these were the basic questions Qin was looking to answer, and I think they are a great place to start. David 2010/9/26 Qin Wu : > Hi, folks: > We have planned to have a BarBOF in time for Beijing IETF meeting. > > The primary goal of this BarBOF is to making sure that people agree on wh= at > problem (or problems) need to be solved; > Some of these problems or interesting issues are summarized in my previou= s > email available at > (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00002.html= ) > which was=A0raised by people who are interested > in HTTP Streaming in the=A0 DISPATCH mailing list before we move to this = new > discussion list. > The other problems come from HTTP streaming Problem statement > draft which I have updated recently > (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization= -ps-01.txt). > > Another goal is to make sure we have not any overlapping with other SDO. > > In order to stimulate the discussion toward these two=A0goals, I have cra= fted > intial charter skeleton. > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpstreaming/current/msg00003.html > > I would like us to center around these problems we listed and the intial > charter skeleton I drafted to figure out > (a) what kind of use cases can we=A0 have > (b) and how many problems are worth being discussed > (c) Is there any challenging issues we missed or neglected? > (d) and what kind of concrete protocol/mechanism/scheme can we=A0 come up > with? > > Also I would like to point out=A0some related works in IETF for your > references. Curretly what we have on the table includes: > Apples' HTTP live streaming > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pantos-http-live-streaming-04 > HTTP Streaming Problem Statement > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wu-http-streaming-optimization-ps-001 > Implications of Full-Duplex HTTP > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhu-http-fullduplex-01 > If there is any related work missing or wrong, please let me know. Also I > would like to encourage people to bring your contributions > and thoughts in draft to this discussion list. > > Regards! > -Qin > > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > > From ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk Thu Sep 30 10:12:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8363A6E1A for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.245 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.245 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.354, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vhvWaAK-XjcG for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailex.mailcore.me (mailex.mailcore.me [94.136.40.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7835A3A6DFD for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host1.cachelogic.com ([212.44.43.80] helo=dhcp-105-devlan.cachelogic.com) by mail11.atlas.pipex.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P1Mgy-0001bs-Gd; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:13:12 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Niven-Jenkins In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:13:08 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <18429BFD-5C5F-4513-85B7-8B91F6D28C97@niven-jenkins.co.uk> References: <00df01cb5de2$2ac49730$4f548a0a@china.huawei.com> To: David A. Bryan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Mailcore-Auth: 9600544 X-Mailcore-Domain: 172912 Cc: httpstreaming@ietf.org Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:12:30 -0000 David, Colleagues, On 29 Sep 2010, at 19:59, David A. Bryan wrote: > So we have had a number of threads, some about possible work, some > about details in the charter, etc. I think it is great to start > thinking about a possible charter if this work turns into a WG, and > some good reference drafts (thanks to Qin and the folks from Apple for > putting these together), but I think another way to look at this might > be to at least initially take a step back and see if the folks on the > list can take a stab at some more basic questions. I think that was > perhaps what Qin was getting at when we started this thread, but it is > always good to refocus. >=20 Ah! I (wrongly) assumed that the areas of possible work were already = known to someone and the proposed charter was just an attempt to = articulate them. > I'll ask two really basic questions to the folks on list, and let's > see what the opinions may be, and maybe we can move forward from > there. Personally, I think that if we have a bar BoF, focusing just on > these two basic questions (ok, one is a compound question, but one is > basic!) might be a good way to move forward. I expect we'll have some > VERY different answers. Remember that HTTP streaming may mean > different things to people, and might even be the wrong term...but > these are the things we need to try to figure out. >=20 > So the two big questions: >=20 > 1) On the topic of this list/HTTP streaming, what do you think is the > problem/problems/scenario we should be looking at? >=20 I do not feel I am in a position just yet to start making statements = about what problems I think a HTTP streaming group (if formed) should = look at, however one area that I think may be interesting to study and = that I am not aware of other bodies looking at is "chunk hints". A lot of streaming media today is delivered via CDNs that operate as = more than just a dumb (inline) proxy cache. HTTP naturally supports the insertion of caches transparently to the end = points so one could argue that nothing more needs to be done for HTTP = streaming than for regular HTTP. As adaptive bit rate combined with HTTP delivery relies on throughput = measurements to determine the appropriate bit rate to download for = subsequent chunks, variation in latency (e.g. the difference between a = request for a chunk being a cache hit Vs a cache miss) is likely to = affect the throughput perceived by the client and therefore may cause = bit rate switch on a cache miss that wouldn't have occurred had the = request actually been a cache hit. If there was some way to provide a "hint" to the server/cache as to = which chunk the client is likely to request next then a CDN could elect = to retrieve that chunk ahead of it actually being requested to keep the = response latency (or some other factor) more consistent and avoid = additional bit rate switches. > 2) What other standards body work in this space are you aware of > (including IETF work), and how do you think any new work would fit in > (or not!) with the answer above? None that I am aware of. From luby@qualcomm.com Thu Sep 30 12:14:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65B43A6E6A for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:14:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w6uUlbEVlv43 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDB63A6DCA for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:14:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=luby@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1285874106; x=1317410106; h=from:to:date:subject:thread-topic:thread-index: message-id:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language: x-ms-has-attach:x-ms-tnef-correlator:user-agent: acceptlanguage:content-type:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; z=From:=20"Luby,=20Michael"=20|To:=20Be n=20Niven-Jenkins=20,=20David=20 A.Bryan=0D=0A=09,=20"httpstreaming@i etf.org"=20|Date:=20Thu,=2030=20S ep=202010=2012:15:03=20-0700|Subject:=20Re:=20[httpstream ing]=20Current=20Status=20and=20Our=20Goal|Thread-Topic: =20[httpstreaming]=20Current=20Status=20and=20Our=20Goal |Thread-Index:=20Actg0d+cTP0++OlTTBWyIUxfxdcWVgAAej8h |Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<18429BFD-5C5F-4513-85B7-8B91F6D28C97@niv en-jenkins.co.uk>|Accept-Language:=20en-US |Content-Language:=20en-US|X-MS-Has-Attach: |X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:|user-agent:=20Microsoft-Entourage/ 13.6.0.100712|acceptlanguage:=20en-US|Content-Type:=20tex t/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii" |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable |MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=yU8EhBFkXhh2vbbB/qeN8JTHF1MYf8dnIF9vscZ5kRo=; b=jto6+2PAYcN0V48uax1WBy1tBeyI60Xk4jLhTswCvNGEW4gyoUhUqt0C jQwo1OJOS04CZnEmtWZiu0Ar5dKO3v93UgcTNXuqlFQMBL4yd6JH+jSRS KFhbR5W21Xq5oYL8qQ5Vop8TvICmhNsj/INGqa72pEkt1EmlLDtxaEqXb k=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6122"; a="56265368" Received: from ironmsg03-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.18]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 30 Sep 2010 12:15:06 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.57,260,1283756400"; d="scan'208";a="10417059" Received: from nasanexhub02.na.qualcomm.com ([10.46.143.120]) by Ironmsg03-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 30 Sep 2010 12:15:06 -0700 Received: from nasclexhc01.na.qualcomm.com (10.227.147.14) by nasanexhub02.na.qualcomm.com (10.46.143.120) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:15:06 -0700 Received: from NASCLEXMB02.na.qualcomm.com ([10.227.144.113]) by nasclexhc01.na.qualcomm.com ([10.227.147.14]) with mapi; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:15:05 -0700 From: "Luby, Michael" To: Ben Niven-Jenkins , David A.Bryan , "httpstreaming@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:15:03 -0700 Thread-Topic: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal Thread-Index: Actg0d+cTP0++OlTTBWyIUxfxdcWVgAAej8h Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18429BFD-5C5F-4513-85B7-8B91F6D28C97@niven-jenkins.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.6.0.100712 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:14:24 -0000 One thing I suggest is that this group seriously study DASH standardization work in 3GPP and MPEG to understand what these standards do and do not address, preferably before deciding whether or not to start a group and definitely before establishing a charter if the decision is to start a group. On 9/30/10 10:13 AM, "Ben Niven-Jenkins" wrote: > David, Colleagues, >=20 > On 29 Sep 2010, at 19:59, David A. Bryan wrote: >=20 >> So we have had a number of threads, some about possible work, some >> about details in the charter, etc. I think it is great to start >> thinking about a possible charter if this work turns into a WG, and >> some good reference drafts (thanks to Qin and the folks from Apple for >> putting these together), but I think another way to look at this might >> be to at least initially take a step back and see if the folks on the >> list can take a stab at some more basic questions. I think that was >> perhaps what Qin was getting at when we started this thread, but it is >> always good to refocus. >>=20 >=20 > Ah! I (wrongly) assumed that the areas of possible work were already know= n to > someone and the proposed charter was just an attempt to articulate them. >=20 >> I'll ask two really basic questions to the folks on list, and let's >> see what the opinions may be, and maybe we can move forward from >> there. Personally, I think that if we have a bar BoF, focusing just on >> these two basic questions (ok, one is a compound question, but one is >> basic!) might be a good way to move forward. I expect we'll have some >> VERY different answers. Remember that HTTP streaming may mean >> different things to people, and might even be the wrong term...but >> these are the things we need to try to figure out. >>=20 >> So the two big questions: >>=20 >> 1) On the topic of this list/HTTP streaming, what do you think is the >> problem/problems/scenario we should be looking at? >>=20 >=20 > I do not feel I am in a position just yet to start making statements abou= t > what problems I think a HTTP streaming group (if formed) should look at, > however one area that I think may be interesting to study and that I am n= ot > aware of other bodies looking at is "chunk hints". >=20 > A lot of streaming media today is delivered via CDNs that operate as more= than > just a dumb (inline) proxy cache. >=20 > HTTP naturally supports the insertion of caches transparently to the end > points so one could argue that nothing more needs to be done for HTTP > streaming than for regular HTTP. >=20 > As adaptive bit rate combined with HTTP delivery relies on throughput > measurements to determine the appropriate bit rate to download for subseq= uent > chunks, variation in latency (e.g. the difference between a request for a > chunk being a cache hit Vs a cache miss) is likely to affect the throughp= ut > perceived by the client and therefore may cause bit rate switch on a cach= e > miss that wouldn't have occurred had the request actually been a cache hi= t. >=20 > If there was some way to provide a "hint" to the server/cache as to which > chunk the client is likely to request next then a CDN could elect to retr= ieve > that chunk ahead of it actually being requested to keep the response late= ncy > (or some other factor) more consistent and avoid additional bit rate swit= ches. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> 2) What other standards body work in this space are you aware of >> (including IETF work), and how do you think any new work would fit in >> (or not!) with the answer above? >=20 > None that I am aware of. >=20 >=20 >=20 From soohongp@gmail.com Thu Sep 30 19:02:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: httpstreaming@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354133A6E89 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:02:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.411, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2C+p8y7Sh62 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f172.google.com (mail-iw0-f172.google.com [209.85.214.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509593A6C59 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iwn3 with SMTP id 3so3841254iwn.31 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:03:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=hCVcw+djbgkxobJOULdYO1UuYSQtZlLEv9Dlj+fUZlo=; b=A5x89WLn1GlBG/+79yJ25OnDWjvDK2JoNJ2v4iuLc5QUsuhinMb6CHbQAs8Ch37uEc 6Upe1JVBZ6jiGEiZerF/COxmqH5ZuLlkT2UgZQljXN9nCrsgzBl6yOacwtsBzi9dk8BM Y7WPhs4kjq9OuTJMXNknMpKziMYSksjiPyAic= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=j9cCKSuZIOstUA7tlVat1K1izkEd8psJaCVOkYhBmHUUhZl/QNUv33+vjJC6xYK/nO L8FgjtqnYO03mOIJd9c9D/gAEK08b9fydPAdxqs4Tm+5v1m4e/Yyr+d+fZgLvaltSV/9 CrS3swETMERKL9vDN9zZ9K5/50mii16KF9Adk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.166.139 with SMTP id m11mr4793909iby.136.1285898593850; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.113.167 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Sep 2010 19:03:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <18429BFD-5C5F-4513-85B7-8B91F6D28C97@niven-jenkins.co.uk> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:03:13 +0900 Message-ID: From: Daniel Park To: "Luby, Michael" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=005045013c64e75a48049184980c Cc: "httpstreaming@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [httpstreaming] Current Status and Our Goal X-BeenThere: httpstreaming@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Network based HTTP Streaming discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:02:31 -0000 --005045013c64e75a48049184980c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 That's what I pointed out at the previous mail. "gap analysis among the existing approaches" For example, a new design team (or study team) can be formed together in this group. It's very general process within IETF to harmonize different voices. Daniel @ Samsung On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Luby, Michael wrote: > One thing I suggest is that this group seriously study DASH standardization > work in 3GPP and MPEG to understand what these standards do and do not > address, preferably before deciding whether or not to start a group and > definitely before establishing a charter if the decision is to start a > group. > > > On 9/30/10 10:13 AM, "Ben Niven-Jenkins" wrote: > > > David, Colleagues, > > > > On 29 Sep 2010, at 19:59, David A. Bryan wrote: > > > >> So we have had a number of threads, some about possible work, some > >> about details in the charter, etc. I think it is great to start > >> thinking about a possible charter if this work turns into a WG, and > >> some good reference drafts (thanks to Qin and the folks from Apple for > >> putting these together), but I think another way to look at this might > >> be to at least initially take a step back and see if the folks on the > >> list can take a stab at some more basic questions. I think that was > >> perhaps what Qin was getting at when we started this thread, but it is > >> always good to refocus. > >> > > > > Ah! I (wrongly) assumed that the areas of possible work were already > known to > > someone and the proposed charter was just an attempt to articulate them. > > > >> I'll ask two really basic questions to the folks on list, and let's > >> see what the opinions may be, and maybe we can move forward from > >> there. Personally, I think that if we have a bar BoF, focusing just on > >> these two basic questions (ok, one is a compound question, but one is > >> basic!) might be a good way to move forward. I expect we'll have some > >> VERY different answers. Remember that HTTP streaming may mean > >> different things to people, and might even be the wrong term...but > >> these are the things we need to try to figure out. > >> > >> So the two big questions: > >> > >> 1) On the topic of this list/HTTP streaming, what do you think is the > >> problem/problems/scenario we should be looking at? > >> > > > > I do not feel I am in a position just yet to start making statements > about > > what problems I think a HTTP streaming group (if formed) should look at, > > however one area that I think may be interesting to study and that I am > not > > aware of other bodies looking at is "chunk hints". > > > > A lot of streaming media today is delivered via CDNs that operate as more > than > > just a dumb (inline) proxy cache. > > > > HTTP naturally supports the insertion of caches transparently to the end > > points so one could argue that nothing more needs to be done for HTTP > > streaming than for regular HTTP. > > > > As adaptive bit rate combined with HTTP delivery relies on throughput > > measurements to determine the appropriate bit rate to download for > subsequent > > chunks, variation in latency (e.g. the difference between a request for a > > chunk being a cache hit Vs a cache miss) is likely to affect the > throughput > > perceived by the client and therefore may cause bit rate switch on a > cache > > miss that wouldn't have occurred had the request actually been a cache > hit. > > > > If there was some way to provide a "hint" to the server/cache as to which > > chunk the client is likely to request next then a CDN could elect to > retrieve > > that chunk ahead of it actually being requested to keep the response > latency > > (or some other factor) more consistent and avoid additional bit rate > switches. > > > > > > > >> 2) What other standards body work in this space are you aware of > >> (including IETF work), and how do you think any new work would fit in > >> (or not!) with the answer above? > > > > None that I am aware of. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > httpstreaming mailing list > httpstreaming@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming > -- Soohong Daniel Park Samsung Electronics, DMC R&D http://www.soohongp.com, twitter:@natpt --005045013c64e75a48049184980c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's what I pointed out at the previous mail.=A0

<= /div>
"gap analysis among the existing approaches"
<= div>
For example, a new design team (or study team) can be fo= rmed together in this group. It's very general process within IETF to h= armonize different voices.


Daniel @ Samsung

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Luby, Michael <= span dir=3D"ltr"><luby@qualcomm.com= > wrote:
One thing I suggest is that this group seri= ously study DASH standardization
work in 3GPP and MPEG to understand what these standards do and do not
address, preferably before deciding whether or not to start a group and
definitely before establishing a charter if the decision is to start a
group.


On 9/30/10 10:13 AM, "Ben Niven-Jenkins" <ben@niven-jenkins.co.uk> wrote:

> David, Colleagues,
>
> On 29 Sep 2010, at 19:59, David A. Bryan wrote:
>
>> So we have had a number of threads, some about possible work, some=
>> about details in the charter, etc. I think it is great to start >> thinking about a possible charter if this work turns into a WG, an= d
>> some good reference drafts (thanks to Qin and the folks from Apple= for
>> putting these together), but I think another way to look at this m= ight
>> be to at least initially take a step back and see if the folks on = the
>> list can take a stab at some more basic questions. I think that wa= s
>> perhaps what Qin was getting at when we started this thread, but i= t is
>> always good to refocus.
>>
>
> Ah! I (wrongly) assumed that the areas of possible work were already k= nown to
> someone and the proposed charter was just an attempt to articulate the= m.
>
>> I'll ask two really basic questions to the folks on list, and = let's
>> see what the opinions may be, and maybe we can move forward from >> there. Personally, I think that if we have a bar BoF, focusing jus= t on
>> these two basic questions (ok, one is a compound question, but one= is
>> basic!) might be a good way to move forward. I expect we'll ha= ve some
>> VERY different answers. Remember that HTTP streaming may mean
>> different things to people, and might even be the wrong term...but=
>> these are the things we need to try to figure out.
>>
>> So the two big questions:
>>
>> 1) On the topic of this list/HTTP streaming, what do you think is = the
>> problem/problems/scenario we should be looking at?
>>
>
> I do not feel I am in a position just yet to start making statements a= bout
> what problems I think a HTTP streaming group (if formed) should look a= t,
> however one area that I think may be interesting to study and that I a= m not
> aware of other bodies looking at is "chunk hints".
>
> A lot of streaming media today is delivered via CDNs that operate as m= ore than
> just a dumb (inline) proxy cache.
>
> HTTP naturally supports the insertion of caches transparently to the e= nd
> points so one could argue that nothing more needs to be done for HTTP<= br> > streaming than for regular HTTP.
>
> As adaptive bit rate combined with HTTP delivery relies on throughput<= br> > measurements to determine the appropriate bit rate to download for sub= sequent
> chunks, variation in latency (e.g. the difference between a request fo= r a
> chunk being a cache hit Vs a cache miss) is likely to affect the throu= ghput
> perceived by the client and therefore may cause bit rate switch on a c= ache
> miss that wouldn't have occurred had the request actually been a c= ache hit.
>
> If there was some way to provide a "hint" to the server/cach= e as to which
> chunk the client is likely to request next then a CDN could elect to r= etrieve
> that chunk ahead of it actually being requested to keep the response l= atency
> (or some other factor) more consistent and avoid additional bit rate s= witches.
>
>
>
>> 2) What other standards body work in this space are you aware of >> (including IETF work), and how do you think any new work would fit= in
>> (or not!) with the answer above?
>
> None that I am aware of.
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
httpstreaming mailing list
httpstreaming@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/httpstreaming



--
Soohon= g Daniel Park
Samsung Electronics, DMC R&D
http://www.soohongp.com, twitter:@natp= t

--005045013c64e75a48049184980c--