From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 2 12:27:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB33821F885E for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:27:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.625, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SmNuVqhg9itO for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A99E21F8871 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 17so17486164iea.30 for ; Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:27:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Ey88laZdcbVm731jZurotpbMn66w5cyvjbXw/kqISbU=; b=0CQFzWIx3vF+T/wPnzTHic2wm5XiFDeDyPRi0k584OCItaMIQJRWeEiBYztqZId6FI nCYO5BFgtmHA2m3N/NAQ5Wdf949VHvi+5nVemPj4Bc9oNAQ47vVWqEyVj9xvhG88EKGj FH0QlPbOq+fH5nWNEs5vJ9gaKHB4oS2Gnv5UqB+Q5zmMU51Eh5IvcMgBrQz2c7SuPcGe 8/JWZ7+vknYUYFGYN6K8q2H5sn5t7uJK3aEZKa37oO58dWqKzBrJlNccbnlqdGbeW0af okJV3gEUGhVSXHFmc0RmhHGcOixVfegxovheI9AuhyTDbPBdGvxChrfDFMURYaRDJTkH bkNg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.178.106 with SMTP id cx10mr42320066igc.24.1357158452895; Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:27:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:27:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f5036c87d209c04d25413e6 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 20:27:35 -0000 --e89a8f5036c87d209c04d25413e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Adrian, I have a few belated comments on the proposed charter, from what is today at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/, - as follows: " A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a routing network may be a single router or a collection of routers. The routing system may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is forwarded, or a collection of such interfaces. The routing system also includes the control plane protocols that operate the routers." I think this is trying to describe what we mean by "a routing system" - but I feel like it is missing most of the point and details - we're not concerned about the data-forwarding interfaces, except in as much as they are part of the forwarding plane to be programmed and provide the outgoing interfaces to be used in a route or path. Feel free, of course, to bash it, but I'd like to propose replacing the entire paragraph with the following: "In a routing network, the routing system is responsible for determining how data packets should be forwarded and communicating that to the relevant forwarding or data plane. The dispersal of both the relevant information for this determination and the resulting routes or paths is part of the routing system. The relevant forwarding or data plane need not be co-located with the portion of the routing system that determines the routes. However, a routing system is frequently co-located in a network element with a forwarding or data plane that contains one or more interface over which data traffic is forwarded. Thus, the routing system includes control plane protocols that compute routes and paths for data packets." The second paragraph starts with: "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system through a collection of control or management interfaces." While the type of interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, I'd like to jump further on it by suggesting adding "protocol-based" to the list of possible descriptors. That would make it: "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system through a collection of control or management protocol-based interfaces." Then, in the third paragraph, we can refer back to those protocol-based interfaces - changing from: "The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of theinformational models and requirements for encodings and protocols." to "The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of theinformational models and requirements for encodings and protocols of the control and management protocol-based interfaces." I think that the latter two changes help connect the charter more clearly with a bit of the clarity around interfaces that was desired. Thoughts and opinions? Alia On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > I have ploughed through the emails discussing the charter and come up with > some > minor tweaks. > > 1. "Interface" > There was a strong desire to separate the two meanings of "interface". > However, > the solutions suggested were all rather variable. In fact, the word is > only used > in the first paragraph of the charter, so it seems best to be long-winded > for > the sake of clarity. This leads to: > > == > A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a routing > network may be a single router or a collection of routers. The routing > system > may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is > forwarded, > or a collection of such interfaces. > > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing > system > through a collection of control or management interfaces. These allow > information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and > retrieved (as read or notification) from the routing system while > retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, > and > between multiple interactions with the routing system. > == > > 2. Include Control Plane Protocols > This got immediate support and leads to: > > == > A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a routing > network may be a single router or a collection of routers. The routing > system > may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is > forwarded, > or a collection of such interfaces. The routing system also includes the > control plane protocols that operate the routers. > > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing > system > through a collection of control or management interfaces. These allow > information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and > retrieved (as read or notification) from the routing system while > retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, > and > between multiple interactions with the routing system. > == > > 3. Rationalise the Use Cases > There was good support in theory (at the BoF) for reducing / focussing the > use > cases., but as I predicted, the rule of thumb is "Cut out other people's > use > cases. Leave mine in." > There were some emails of a generally supportive nature for focussing the > use > cases a bit better, and some suggestions for additional (but focussed) use > cases. > Here is my suggestion based on: > draft-atlas-irs-problem-statement section 3 > draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases > draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 2 > draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 3 > draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 4 > draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases > == > OLD > - Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS. These use > cases will > include at least: > o Interactions with the RIB. > o Association of routing policies with routing state. > o The ability to extract information about topology from the > network. Injection and creation of topology will not be > considered as an initial work item. > > Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only after > milestones > have been added to the charter page. > NEW > - Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS. These use > cases will > include at least: > o Interactions with the RIB. Allowing read and write access to the RIB > and to > the policies used to construct the FIB, but no direct access to the FIB. > o Control and analysis of the operation of BGP including the setting and > activation of policies related to the protocol. > o Control, optimization, and choice of traffic exit points from networks > based on more information than provided by the dynamic control plane. > o Distributed reaction to network-based attacks through quickly > modification > of the control plane behavior to reroute traffic for one destination while > leaving a standard mechanisms (filters, metrics, and policy) in place for > other > routes. > o Service layer routing to improve on existing hub-and-spoke traffic > o The ability to extract information about topology from the network. > Injection and creation of topology will not be considered as an initial > work > item. > > Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only after > milestones > have been added to the charter page. > END > == > > 4. Rationalise milestones > There was concern that each and every document did not need to be listed > in the > milestones. And it was noted that the chairs (once the WG is running) can > add > milestones as they consider useful. > Additionally, we need to have some proposed dates against the milestones. > That leads to: > > == > Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the > problem > statement > Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the > architecture framework > Aug 2013 : Request publication of Informational documents describing use > cases > Sep 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the > protocol requirements > Sep 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining > encoding > language requirements > Nov 2013 : Request publication of Standards Track documents specifying > information models > Nov 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document providing an > analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding languages > against the > requirements > Dec 2013 : Consider re-chartering > == > > I have made these changes and updated the draft charter at > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/ > > It is my intention to put this charter to the IESG early in the New Year. > So > please review and comment heartily. > > Thanks, > Adrian > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > --e89a8f5036c87d209c04d25413e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian,

I have a few belated comments on the proposed= charter, from what is today at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/, - as follows:

" A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part = of a routing network may be=A0
 a single router or a collectio=
n of routers. The routing system may be further divided to 
 be an inter=
face over which data traffic is forwarded, or a collection of such interfac=
es. 

 The routing system also includes the control plane protocols that operate =
the routers."

I think this is trying to des= cribe what we mean by "a routing system" - but I feel like it is = missing most of the point and details - we're not concerned about the d= ata-forwarding interfaces, except in as much as they are part of the forwar= ding plane to be programmed and provide the outgoing interfaces to be used = in a route or path. =A0Feel free, of course, to bash it, but I'd like t= o propose replacing the entire paragraph with the following:

"In a routing network, the routing system is respo= nsible for
determining how data packets should be forwarded and communi= cating
that to the relevant forwarding or data plane. =A0The disp= ersal of both
the relevant information for this determination and the resulting
routes or paths is part of the routing system. =A0The relevant
<= div>forwarding or data plane need not be co-located with the portion of
the routing system that determines the routes. =A0However, a routing
system is frequently co-located in a network element with a forwar= ding
or data plane that contains one or more interface over which= data
traffic is forwarded. =A0Thus, the routing system includes control pla= ne
protocols that compute routes and paths for data packets."= ;

The second paragraph starts with:

"I2RS faci= litates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system throu= gh a
 collection of control or manag=
ement interfaces."

=

While the type of = interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, I'd like to jump furt= her on it=A0
by suggesting adding "protocol-based" to the list of possibl= e descriptors. =A0That would make it:

"I2RS facilitates real-time or ev= ent driven interaction with the routing system through a
 collection of control or management pro=
tocol-based interfaces."

Then, in the = third paragraph, we can refer back to those protocol-based interfaces - cha= nging from:

"The I2RS working group works to develop a f=
ramework and architecture=A0
that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of theinf=
ormational models and requirements for encodings and protocols."
= 

to

"The I2RS working group works to dev=
elop a framework and architecture=A0
that will enable spe=
cific use cases, and lead to an understanding of theinformational models an=
d requirements for encodings and protocols of the control and management pr=
otocol-based interfaces."

I think that the latter two changes help connect= the charter more clearly with a bit of the clarity around interfaces that = was desired.

Thoughts and opinions?
Alia


On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Adrian Farrel <a= drian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

I have ploughed through the emails discussing the charter and come up with = some
minor tweaks.

1. "Interface"
There was a strong desire to separate the two meanings of "interface&q= uot;. However,
the solutions suggested were all rather variable. In fact, the word is only= used
in the first paragraph of the charter, so it seems best to be long-winded f= or
the sake of clarity. This leads to:

=3D=3D
A routing system is all or part of a routing network. =A0A part of a routin= g
network may be a =A0single router or a collection of routers. =A0The routin= g system
may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is forwar= ded,
or a collection of such interfaces.

I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing sys= tem
through a collection of control or management interfaces. =A0These allow information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or notification) from the routing system while retaining= data
consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, an= d
between multiple interactions with the routing system.
=3D=3D

2. Include Control Plane Protocols
This got immediate support and leads to:

=3D=3D
A routing system is all or part of a routing network. =A0A part of a routin= g
network may be a =A0single router or a collection of routers. =A0The routin= g system
may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is forwar= ded,
or a collection of such interfaces. =A0The routing system also includes the=
control plane protocols that operate the routers.

I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing sys= tem
through a collection of control or management interfaces. =A0These allow information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or notification) from the routing system while retaining= data
consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, an= d
between multiple interactions with the routing system.
=3D=3D

3. Rationalise the Use Cases
There was good support in theory (at the BoF) for reducing / focussing the = use
cases., but as I predicted, the rule of thumb is "Cut out other people= 's use
cases. Leave mine in."
There were some emails of a generally supportive nature for focussing the u= se
cases a bit better, and some suggestions for additional (but focussed) use<= br> cases.
Here is my suggestion based on:
=A0 draft-atlas-irs-problem-statement section 3
=A0 draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases
=A0 draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 2
=A0 draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 3
=A0 draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 4
=A0 draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases
=3D=3D
OLD
- Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS. These use cases= will
include at least:
=A0 =A0o Interactions with the RIB.
=A0 =A0o Association of routing policies with routing state.
=A0 =A0o The ability to extract information about topology from the
=A0 =A0 =A0network. Injection and creation of topology will not be
=A0 =A0 =A0considered as an initial work item.

=A0 =A0Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only after miles= tones
have been added to the charter page.
NEW
- Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS. These use cases= will
include at least:
=A0 =A0o Interactions with the RIB. Allowing read and write access to the R= IB and to
the policies used to construct the FIB, but no direct access to the FIB. =A0 =A0o Control and analysis of the operation of BGP including the setting= and
activation of policies related to the protocol.
=A0 =A0o Control, optimization, and choice of traffic exit points from netw= orks
based on more information than provided by the dynamic control plane.
=A0 =A0o Distributed reaction to network-based attacks through quickly modi= fication
of the control plane behavior to reroute traffic for one destination while<= br> leaving a standard mechanisms (filters, metrics, and policy) in place for o= ther
routes.
=A0 =A0o Service layer routing to improve on existing hub-and-spoke traffic=
=A0 =A0o The ability to extract information about topology from the network= .
Injection and creation of topology will not be considered as an initial wor= k
item.

=A0 =A0Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only after miles= tones
have been added to the charter page.
END
=3D=3D

4. Rationalise milestones
There was concern that each and every document did not need to be listed in= the
milestones. =A0And it was noted that the chairs (once the WG is running) ca= n add
milestones as they consider useful.
Additionally, we need to have some proposed dates against the milestones. That leads to:

=3D=3D
Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the pr= oblem
statement
Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the architecture framework
Aug 2013 : Request publication of Informational documents describing use ca= ses
Sep 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the protocol requirements
Sep 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining encodi= ng
language requirements
Nov 2013 : Request publication of Standards Track documents specifying
information models
Nov 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document providing an analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding languages agains= t the
requirements
Dec 2013 : Consider re-chartering
=3D=3D

I have made these changes and updated the draft charter at
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/

It is my intention to put this charter to the IESG early in the New Year. S= o
please review and comment heartily.

Thanks,
Adrian








_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

--e89a8f5036c87d209c04d25413e6-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 3 13:53:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CA721F8D68 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:53:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZLnz+BMxCyh for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f52.google.com (mail-vb0-f52.google.com [209.85.212.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968EB21F8D44 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id ez10so15959944vbb.11 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:53:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=JtEo1NKZwBg+jqDSunLXKKSC+g/DblwiQMRnQORDrtY=; b=NzEMaVgz6MPqp28kzhnQdqS8CDIDmVtG/f3AYqowqQ266dBuYYShYwvHXHzuWoPcIq rE5Xo97i0DmyOzHM9sm99rv3BHfvqsowf7toSxqn9j3L6LIspjhMjhMBVPSO8MxjybjQ dsqlu9anGD3tJIlyluMNyyHHK47T55zw9PwNtzD7r9jgkFivNVILZrBf/Z4lfwJ5p6Id i9NeMo4hVH70lRtTqRle95SwCW6MgN8Na+UpVZ8us0pwtjPzZQyaC5WGBKGiJL7vVh4s PTdxnFYKH/gBETrH0m84f2rmzZXstwj0wmCyaVF4uvkii7Zrp7+sJsAGjLn0GcRY8l8F 2lww== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.198.135 with SMTP id jc7mr75989929vec.51.1357250016692; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:53:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 22:53:36 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:53:42 -0000 I agree with your concerns and suggestions. also my opinion is that we're still interested to more opinions and discuss the charter because it is important but also interested to submit the charter not later than this month, furthermore, my concerns are that we define/agree apon some objectives and terminologies of this group's documents and discussions, as some one mentioned *we are in danger of biting off more than we can chew*. The charter gives us aim and objectives and think it covers them and to includ Ali's suggestions to make them more clear or easy to read. AB On 1/2/13, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > I have a few belated comments on the proposed charter, from what is today > at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/, - as follows: > > " A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a routing > network may be > > a single router or a collection of routers. The routing system may be > further divided to > be an interface over which data traffic is forwarded, or a collection > of such interfaces. > The routing system also includes the control plane protocols that > operate the routers." > > > I think this is trying to describe what we mean by "a routing system" - but > I feel like it is missing most of the point and details - we're not > concerned about the data-forwarding interfaces, except in as much as they > are part of the forwarding plane to be programmed and provide the outgoing > interfaces to be used in a route or path. Feel free, of course, to bash > it, but I'd like to propose replacing the entire paragraph with the > following: > > "In a routing network, the routing system is responsible for > determining how data packets should be forwarded and communicating > that to the relevant forwarding or data plane. The dispersal of both > the relevant information for this determination and the resulting > routes or paths is part of the routing system. The relevant > forwarding or data plane need not be co-located with the portion of > the routing system that determines the routes. However, a routing > system is frequently co-located in a network element with a forwarding > or data plane that contains one or more interface over which data > traffic is forwarded. Thus, the routing system includes control plane > protocols that compute routes and paths for data packets." > > The second paragraph starts with: > > "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing > system through a > > collection of control or management interfaces." > > > > While the type of interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, I'd > like to jump further on it > by suggesting adding "protocol-based" to the list of possible descriptors. > That would make it: > > "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing > system through a > > collection of control or management protocol-based interfaces." > > > Then, in the third paragraph, we can refer back to those protocol-based > interfaces - changing from: > > "The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture > > that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of > theinformational models and requirements for encodings and protocols." > > > to > > > "The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture > > that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of > theinformational models and requirements for encodings and protocols > of the control and management protocol-based interfaces." > > > I think that the latter two changes help connect the charter more clearly > with a bit of the clarity around interfaces that was desired. > > Thoughts and opinions? > Alia > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I have ploughed through the emails discussing the charter and come up >> with >> some >> minor tweaks. >> >> 1. "Interface" >> There was a strong desire to separate the two meanings of "interface". >> However, >> the solutions suggested were all rather variable. In fact, the word is >> only used >> in the first paragraph of the charter, so it seems best to be long-winded >> for >> the sake of clarity. This leads to: >> >> == >> A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a >> routing >> network may be a single router or a collection of routers. The routing >> system >> may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is >> forwarded, >> or a collection of such interfaces. >> >> I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing >> system >> through a collection of control or management interfaces. These allow >> information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and >> retrieved (as read or notification) from the routing system while >> retaining data >> consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, >> and >> between multiple interactions with the routing system. >> == >> >> 2. Include Control Plane Protocols >> This got immediate support and leads to: >> >> == >> A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a >> routing >> network may be a single router or a collection of routers. The routing >> system >> may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is >> forwarded, >> or a collection of such interfaces. The routing system also includes the >> control plane protocols that operate the routers. >> >> I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing >> system >> through a collection of control or management interfaces. These allow >> information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and >> retrieved (as read or notification) from the routing system while >> retaining data >> consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, >> and >> between multiple interactions with the routing system. >> == >> >> 3. Rationalise the Use Cases >> There was good support in theory (at the BoF) for reducing / focussing >> the >> use >> cases., but as I predicted, the rule of thumb is "Cut out other people's >> use >> cases. Leave mine in." >> There were some emails of a generally supportive nature for focussing the >> use >> cases a bit better, and some suggestions for additional (but focussed) >> use >> cases. >> Here is my suggestion based on: >> draft-atlas-irs-problem-statement section 3 >> draft-keyupate-irs-bgp-usecases >> draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 2 >> draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 3 >> draft-white-irs-use-case-00.txt section 4 >> draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases >> == >> OLD >> - Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS. These use >> cases will >> include at least: >> o Interactions with the RIB. >> o Association of routing policies with routing state. >> o The ability to extract information about topology from the >> network. Injection and creation of topology will not be >> considered as an initial work item. >> >> Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only after >> milestones >> have been added to the charter page. >> NEW >> - Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS. These use >> cases will >> include at least: >> o Interactions with the RIB. Allowing read and write access to the RIB >> and to >> the policies used to construct the FIB, but no direct access to the FIB. >> o Control and analysis of the operation of BGP including the setting >> and >> activation of policies related to the protocol. >> o Control, optimization, and choice of traffic exit points from >> networks >> based on more information than provided by the dynamic control plane. >> o Distributed reaction to network-based attacks through quickly >> modification >> of the control plane behavior to reroute traffic for one destination >> while >> leaving a standard mechanisms (filters, metrics, and policy) in place for >> other >> routes. >> o Service layer routing to improve on existing hub-and-spoke traffic >> o The ability to extract information about topology from the network. >> Injection and creation of topology will not be considered as an initial >> work >> item. >> >> Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only after >> milestones >> have been added to the charter page. >> END >> == >> >> 4. Rationalise milestones >> There was concern that each and every document did not need to be listed >> in the >> milestones. And it was noted that the chairs (once the WG is running) >> can >> add >> milestones as they consider useful. >> Additionally, we need to have some proposed dates against the milestones. >> That leads to: >> >> == >> Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the >> problem >> statement >> Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the >> architecture framework >> Aug 2013 : Request publication of Informational documents describing use >> cases >> Sep 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the >> protocol requirements >> Sep 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining >> encoding >> language requirements >> Nov 2013 : Request publication of Standards Track documents specifying >> information models >> Nov 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document providing an >> analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding languages >> against the >> requirements >> Dec 2013 : Consider re-chartering >> == >> >> I have made these changes and updated the draft charter at >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/ >> >> It is my intention to put this charter to the IESG early in the New Year. >> So >> please review and comment heartily. >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > From narten@us.ibm.com Thu Jan 3 14:15:02 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44F121F8D77 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:15:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uzqVGeojb1nJ for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from e38.co.us.ibm.com (e38.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C668821F8D75 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from /spool/local by e38.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:14:56 -0700 Received: from d03relay01.boulder.ibm.com (d03relay01.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.226]) by d03dlp03.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8C119D8048 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:14:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.168]) by d03relay01.boulder.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id r03MEtd4258146 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:14:55 -0700 Received: from d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id r03MEsrc026258 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:14:55 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-65-255-108.mts.ibm.com [9.65.255.108]) by d03av02.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id r03MEoQa026046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:14:52 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id r03MEnvP005016; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:14:49 -0500 Message-Id: <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Alia Atlas In-reply-to: References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> Comments: In-reply-to Alia Atlas message dated "Wed, 02 Jan 2013 15:27:32 -0500." Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:14:49 -0500 From: Thomas Narten X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 13010322-5518-0000-0000-00000A74A00B Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 22:15:02 -0000 Alia Atlas writes: > I have a few belated comments on the proposed charter, from what is today > at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/, - as follows: > " A routing system is all or part of a routing network. A part of a > routing network may be a single router or a collection of > routers. The routing system may be further divided to be an > interface over which data traffic is forwarded, or a collection of > such interfaces. The routing system also includes the control plane > protocols that operate the routers." I also find the above text unclear/confusing. Alia and I had an offline exchange, which resulted in the following suggestion: In a network, the routing system is the collection of entities, protocols and processes that collectively build the forwarding tables that are exported into the entities that constitute the network's fowarding plane. This attempts to say what the "routing system" in general terms while also being clear about the separation of the data/forwarding plane from the routing system. I2RS is presumably focussed on the latter. I also don't think its helpful to talk about "The routing system may be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is forwarded". That doesn't seem accurate, as network interfaces typically just process packets, and I have a hard time seeing a single interface being considered a "routing system". > The second paragraph starts with: > "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > interfaces." > While the type of interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, > I'd like to jump further on it by suggesting adding "protocol-based" > to the list of possible descriptors. That would make it: > "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > protocol-based interfaces." I'm OK with this change, but the bigger question I have when reading the charter (at a general level), is how this "management interface" differs from what we already have today. E.g., config files. I suspect one answer is "you can't do what we want to do through the existing config file mechanisms", but that's only partly helpful and begs the question of just what is something this effort is intended to do that can't already be done today. The charter itself doesn't say anything like that. It's just silent about why what I2RS is trying to do can't be done today. Indeed, there is no hint at all about how this might be done (and the BOF had lots of questions along the lines of "why can't you use to do this today?" I'm not sure what to suggest here, but my own sense is that an outside reader looking at this charter will have a hard time understanding just what the scope of this effort is and what problem it is trying to solve. Thomas From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 3 23:24:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72BF221F88CC for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:24:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gmM2cX3EYMiv for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC98421F8518 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id n11so16126028vch.16 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:24:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=NvzmBlO+dSNnlYztVij+TAbZUoerHrUWoNE6cDfB8yM=; b=XlT0n5r64zSEF7dGjG3wzrO/8wwL0Sdn9ccQMyuDHJisl4GWTmcTS7MHlcRoBlM8Xq m+Xkd34G1tb2UsS8/qNdOcplJ0oyb7VqEsstCJPzJwfclZbodY9KP9fs3MFK8em/xEqA EDstQGdpOAmB6q/6o0Sfy1BmJjOcgFfmmrp84RiW3leN8oaoNLri0hpPAm0vR+xQrxf7 i0nVnA3zcPFdE+D4QsuPgk32BNJmgWaRFoDglt6H+BFrgn3i+JOKuLGhFLAIkWwhEYnw WhSX2ISJXoHsQSG1dBEuZ4UqiT+KyAY9ZDF0Gb4aaEKI4Z2BPaC4EQwHTaJvVPM5DLQC Imxw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.76.73 with SMTP id i9mr65764643vdw.25.1357284285947; Thu, 03 Jan 2013 23:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:24:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:24:45 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Thomas Narten Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org, Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 07:24:47 -0000 I don't think the questions are needed or amendments are necessary. Your right that is seemed to me the same if I forgoten the documents, however, some comment in line :) On 1/3/13, Thomas Narten wrote: > I also find the above text unclear/confusing. Alia and I had an > offline exchange, which resulted in the following suggestion: > > In a network, the routing system is the collection of entities, > protocols and processes that collectively build the forwarding > tables that are exported into the entities that constitute the > network's fowarding plane. > > This attempts to say what the "routing system" in general terms while > also being clear about the separation of the data/forwarding plane > from the routing system. I2RS is presumably focussed on the latter. I don't think the charter should explain much about I2RS definitions, I prefered not to define but to state the charter aim and objectives. > > I also don't think its helpful to talk about "The routing system may > be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is > forwarded". That doesn't seem accurate, as network interfaces > typically just process packets, and I have a hard time seeing a single > interface being considered a "routing system". You misunderstood because you did not read the documents, all explained there. >> "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the >> routing system through a collection of control or management >> protocol-based interfaces." > > I'm OK with this change, but the bigger question I have when reading > the charter (at a general level), is how this "management interface" > differs from what we already have today. E.g., config files. I suspect > one answer is "you can't do what we want to do through the existing > config file mechanisms", but that's only partly helpful and begs the > question of just what is something this effort is intended to do that > can't already be done today. We know every thing could/can be done in past/present/future, but the question is was it standard by IETF, if not then I think it answers your question and the effort should be done. > The charter itself doesn't say anything > like that. It's just silent about why what I2RS is trying to do can't > be done today. Indeed, there is no hint at all about how this might be > done (and the BOF had lots of questions along the lines of "why can't > you use to do this today?" we cannot do any thing without a WG and we need a charter to have authorisation. > > I'm not sure what to suggest here, but my own sense is that an outside > reader looking at this charter will have a hard time understanding > just what the scope of this effort is and what problem it is trying to > solve. I think I like your idea that *what problem trying to solve* which is a good to mention in the charter. May be some times there is no problem but there is ideas to make better services. The case problems are in ID started as work-in-progress. However, I think the scope is there clear but note mentioned as *scope* (i.e. I named it the charter aim) please read: I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system through a collection of control or management interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by notification) from the routing system while retaining data consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing system. Maybe it will be nice to indicate that as: I2RS scope is ......etc. AB From narten@us.ibm.com Fri Jan 4 06:03:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAFA21F87FB for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 06:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LIKCNSZOghVk for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 06:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from e8.ny.us.ibm.com (e8.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.138]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AA621F8775 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 06:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from /spool/local by e8.ny.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted for from ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:03:52 -0500 Received: from d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (9.56.250.166) by e8.ny.us.ibm.com (192.168.1.108) with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! Violators will be prosecuted; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:03:44 -0500 Received: from d01relay06.pok.ibm.com (d01relay06.pok.ibm.com [9.56.227.116]) by d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66DD38C803B for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (d01av04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.64]) by d01relay06.pok.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id r04E3gku26214636 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:03:43 -0500 Received: from d01av04.pok.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id r04E3eZV024993 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:03:42 -0500 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (sig-9-76-153-78.mts.ibm.com [9.76.153.78]) by d01av04.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.13.1/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id r04E2sl1019725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:02:54 -0500 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id r04E2nRM014704; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:02:49 -0500 Message-Id: <201301041402.r04E2nRM014704@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> To: Abdussalam Baryun In-reply-to: References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Comments: In-reply-to Abdussalam Baryun message dated "Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:24:45 +0100." Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 09:02:49 -0500 From: Thomas Narten X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 13010414-9360-0000-0000-00000EC18D2B Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, Alia Atlas , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 14:03:55 -0000 Abdussalam Baryun writes: > I don't think the questions are needed or amendments are necessary. > Your right that is seemed to me the same if I forgoten the documents, > however, some comment in line :) > On 1/3/13, Thomas Narten wrote: > > I also find the above text unclear/confusing. Alia and I had an > > offline exchange, which resulted in the following suggestion: > > > > In a network, the routing system is the collection of entities, > > protocols and processes that collectively build the forwarding > > tables that are exported into the entities that constitute the > > network's fowarding plane. > > > > This attempts to say what the "routing system" in general terms while > > also being clear about the separation of the data/forwarding plane > > from the routing system. I2RS is presumably focussed on the latter. > I don't think the charter should explain much about I2RS definitions, > I prefered not to define but to state the charter aim and > objectives. But the proposed charter already has such definitions. The above is an attempt at clarifying that terminology. > > I also don't think its helpful to talk about "The routing system may > > be further divided to be an interface over which data traffic is > > forwarded". That doesn't seem accurate, as network interfaces > > typically just process packets, and I have a hard time seeing a single > > interface being considered a "routing system". > You misunderstood because you did not read the documents, all > explained there. Well, if you have to go read documents to understand the charter, that is not ideal. Other charters that depend on documents then tend to at least cite what those documents are. Exactly which of the dozen+ documents with -irs- in the title contain the relevant text? And are they consistent with each other? (Rather doubtful.) > > The charter itself doesn't say anything > > like that. It's just silent about why what I2RS is trying to do can't > > be done today. Indeed, there is no hint at all about how this might be > > done (and the BOF had lots of questions along the lines of "why can't > > you use to do this today?" > we cannot do any thing without a WG and we need a charter to have > authorisation. My comments are not about objecting to the formation of a WG, but in making the charter clear. > > I'm not sure what to suggest here, but my own sense is that an outside > > reader looking at this charter will have a hard time understanding > > just what the scope of this effort is and what problem it is trying to > > solve. > I think I like your idea that *what problem trying to solve* which is > a good to mention in the charter. May be some times there is no > problem but there is ideas to make better services. The case problems > are in ID started as work-in-progress. > However, I think the scope is there clear but note mentioned as > *scope* (i.e. I named it the charter aim) please read: > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing > system. The part about "retaining data consistency and coherency" is pretty vague and open ended to me. Just what is this supposed to mean? What might help is to had a couple of "for example" type statements, so folk reading the charter have an idea of what sorts of things people have in mind. And note an example is only an example. Mentioning an example doesn't restrict the charter to just that example, but examples can help give people a more concrete idea of what is envisioned. As it is now, the reader pretty much has to guess. Thomas From akatlas@gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:48:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F6A21F88B4 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:48:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AMi3msmJTOg3 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3605121F88AE for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 17so19821813iea.2 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 07:48:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qoqS2beAFEwRYBTvBJnRyQnW4eRwNvpx3wiB3VLxVjg=; b=G/5cDFnpqVlvPyElUFgTntEJ4QgK4Y/KZI0gTuZ3x1FJyqgCJlpv8NvIQstOKKzwEF uOHEC/bjOwOw0oI34XjPVqgnWzCHHJvn7O9aWj1baWib/b17Qk0SSlWJeKVJGuBGDgit +GAEFZI/3n8f+72d3I6Y3gUd5Pzsz3HVERNAtoSAPL8bhPpPtRsB7PdX00YO5G2ShSbv LMzoEkLEq5J+OR3/P5+pMQpRww+uL4q/S4sSBXN0Lw4SckGEmsl6A47WR3cxc04UQJo5 VM1n0HBV9J0FvrJIlVdohr2CHGnqFwefGaxLFsuGq+PcAS9+5H0170N/tCKfaUrjOW9S sgHQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.163.104 with SMTP id yh8mr8841542igb.112.1357314507837; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 07:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:48:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:48:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Thomas Narten Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f646c9716901804d278693a Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:48:29 -0000 --e89a8f646c9716901804d278693a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thomas, Responses in-line On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > Alia Atlas writes: > ... > > > The second paragraph starts with: > > > "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > > routing system through a collection of control or management > > interfaces." > > > While the type of interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, > > I'd like to jump further on it by suggesting adding "protocol-based" > > to the list of possible descriptors. That would make it: > > > "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > > routing system through a collection of control or management > > protocol-based interfaces." > > I'm OK with this change, but the bigger question I have when reading > the charter (at a general level), is how this "management interface" > differs from what we already have today. E.g., config files. I suspect > one answer is "you can't do what we want to do through the existing > config file mechanisms", but that's only partly helpful and begs the > question of just what is something this effort is intended to do that > can't already be done today. The charter itself doesn't say anything > like that. It's just silent about why what I2RS is trying to do can't > be done today. Indeed, there is no hint at all about how this might be > done (and the BOF had lots of questions along the lines of "why can't > you use to do this today?" > > I'm not sure what to suggest here, but my own sense is that an outside > reader looking at this charter will have a hard time understanding > just what the scope of this effort is and what problem it is trying to > solve. > There are a couple things going on here. First, it is entirely possible that the needs of I2RS could be met by extending ; however, we don't want to pre-judge whether that will be the case before the requirements and use-cases are clearly agreed upon. Second, the type of programmatic interface we are looking for is: a) "streaming" or "asynchronous" - it is possible to have many different operations simultaneously being worked upon - from the same and different clients. b) bi-directional: clients can register for significant events and request information. There is the possibility that an I2RS agent may solicit work/direction from one or more clients as well. c) low-overhead and fast: An I2RS client may have hundreds or thousands of IRS agents that need to be occasionally communicated with - and similarly an IRS agent may get operations from many I2RS clients. In such a situation, there's little need to keep alive a communication channel. Avoiding capability negotiation/learning every time a client reconnects is preferable. d) multi-channel: Let's acknowledge that routing elements are multi-processor - whether that means the control plane or the forwarding plane - and have an interface that easily allows transmission of lots of data from multiple processors without having to go through a particular bottleneck. For instance, if an I2RS client requests counter data - potentially lots - it'd be better to have that deliverable directly from the local line processor. But those are my initial ideas - and what we resolve to depends on the use-cases and WG. So, I don't see them as belonging in the charter. So - there are multiple aspects that I2RS is looking to handle: a) "application-friendly" or "machine-to-machine focused" programmatic interfaces b) address the feedback loop - so that an IRS client easily has the information to make decisions c) standard data models to ease application development If you have thoughts on how to fairly describe that in the charter, they'd certainly be welcome. Alia --e89a8f646c9716901804d278693a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas,

Responses in-line

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com&g= t; wrote:
Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> writes:
...=A0
=A0
> The second paragraph starts with:

> "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the<= br> > routing system through a collection of control or management
> interfaces."

> While the type of interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, > I'd like to jump further on it by suggesting adding "protocol= -based"
> to the list of possible descriptors. =A0That would make it:

> "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the<= br> > routing system through a collection of control or management
> protocol-based interfaces."

I'm OK with this change, but the bigger question I have when read= ing
the charter (at a general level), is how this "management interface&qu= ot;
differs from what we already have today. E.g., config files. I suspect
one answer is "you can't do what we want to do through the existin= g
config file mechanisms", but that's only partly helpful and begs t= he
question of just what is something this effort is intended to do that
can't already be done today. The charter itself doesn't say anythin= g
like that. It's just silent about why what I2RS is trying to do can'= ;t
be done today. Indeed, there is no hint at all about how this might be
done (and the BOF had lots of questions along the lines of "why can= 9;t
you use <insert favorite protocol> to do this today?"

I'm not sure what to suggest here, but my own sense is that an outside<= br> reader looking at this charter will have a hard time understanding
just what the scope of this effort is and what problem it is trying to
solve.

=A0There are a couple things goi= ng on here. =A0 First, it is entirely possible that
the needs of = I2RS could be met by extending <pick your favorite protocol
an= d data model language>; however, we don't want to pre-judge whether = that
will be the case before the requirements and use-cases are clearly agr= eed upon.

Second, the type of programmatic interfa= ce we are looking for is:
=A0 =A0a) "streaming" or &quo= t;asynchronous" - it is possible to have many different operations sim= ultaneously being worked upon - from the same and different clients.
=A0 =A0b) =A0bi-directional: =A0clients can register for significant e= vents and request information. =A0There is the possibility that an I2RS age= nt may solicit work/direction from one or more clients as well.
= =A0 =A0c) low-overhead and fast: =A0An I2RS client may have hundreds or tho= usands of IRS agents that need to be occasionally communicated with - and s= imilarly an IRS agent may get operations from many I2RS clients. =A0In such= a situation, there's little need to keep alive a communication channel= . =A0Avoiding capability negotiation/learning every time a client reconnect= s is preferable.
=A0 d) multi-channel: =A0Let's acknowledge that routing elements a= re multi-processor - whether that means the =A0control plane or the forward= ing plane - and have an interface that easily allows transmission of lots o= f data from multiple processors without having to go through a particular b= ottleneck. =A0For instance, if an I2RS client requests counter data - poten= tially lots - it'd be better to have that deliverable directly from the= local line processor.

But those are my initial ideas - and what we resolve to= depends on the use-cases and WG. =A0So, I don't see them as belonging = in the charter.

So - there are multiple aspects th= at I2RS is looking to handle:
=A0 =A0a) "application-friendly" or "machine-to-machine= focused" programmatic interfaces
=A0 =A0b) address the feed= back loop - so that an IRS client easily has the information to make decisi= ons
=A0 =A0c) standard data models to ease application development

If you have thoughts on how to fairly describe that in th= e charter, they'd certainly be welcome.

Alia
--e89a8f646c9716901804d278693a-- From akatlas@gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:58:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D206D21F8830 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:58:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6FIBpskfmwUD for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-f181.google.com (mail-ia0-f181.google.com [209.85.210.181]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B8E21F8837 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f181.google.com with SMTP id s32so13752568iak.26 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ATKyXNgo8yONuSNzuE1lN/3unTeuZsZ2jDyFcOkpHvI=; b=B1wLXXonpao7FoVCUo3m6mqBrvw++QIJgJ8eKZVVeeBC4v1I15UAkQiiBUJ/Dsq4Qq upaQtYW4r9iZyC4DITosBCYVztb/++SO9ZyH7dT8iFB7/pgQ7e1CCzsySescg64uLrQ0 jjT9QfxiAnf1sHgOgEYNQUCMP4BN6qPofCEcyCrtIaAZBSgDPI3/i77IowRZk1arDfA2 6/riuPr99emfXqUjq0gSLsIGh9i8RrxjgMLuOxdqvGmkjHQeOJAJFYMTau0dybnFNRoW oFxrgDuEyeQSszzWrYiOS/1KoGz4nC5wqpE86o2z29tQwyjzfCPi9xxwIOjCVBrs1nvQ ahsw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.56.232 with SMTP id d8mr41175585igq.112.1357315110665; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:58:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201301041402.r04E2nRM014704@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <201301041402.r04E2nRM014704@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:58:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Thomas Narten Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0402df8804fe6c04d2788d4c Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org, Abdussalam Baryun Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 15:58:31 -0000 --f46d0402df8804fe6c04d2788d4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Thomas, On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Thomas Narten wrote: > Abdussalam Baryun writes: > ... > > You misunderstood because you did not read the documents, all > > explained there. > > Well, if you have to go read documents to understand the charter, that > is not ideal. Other charters that depend on documents then tend to at > least cite what those documents are. Exactly which of the dozen+ > documents with -irs- in the title contain the relevant text? And are > they consistent with each other? (Rather doubtful.) [Alia] We did try for consistency & start from the same general idea and the problem-statement & framework drafts - but the work is just starting... ... > > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > > routing system through a collection of control or management > > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > > notification) from the routing system while retaining data > > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing > > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing > > system. > > The part about "retaining data consistency and coherency" is pretty > vague and open ended to me. Just what is this supposed to mean? > [Alia] I read it as "don't break routing" while allowing multiple inputs from different applications. > What might help is to had a couple of "for example" type statements, > so folk reading the charter have an idea of what sorts of things > people have in mind. And note an example is only an > example. Mentioning an example doesn't restrict the charter to just > that example, but examples can help give people a more concrete idea > of what is envisioned. As it is now, the reader pretty much has to > guess. [Alia] The list of use-cases mentioned in the charter is intended to give some more concrete ideas as well as guide/constrain the WG. Alia --f46d0402df8804fe6c04d2788d4c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas,

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 9:02 AM, T= homas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:
Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> writes:
...=A0
> You misunderstood because you did not read the documents, all
> =A0explained there.

Well, if you have to go read documents to understand the charter, tha= t
is not ideal. Other charters that depend on documents then tend to at
least cite what those documents are. Exactly which of the dozen+
documents with -irs- in the title contain the relevant text? And are
they consistent with each other? (Rather doubtful.)

[Alia] =A0We did try for consistency & start from the same gen= eral idea and the
problem-statement & framework drafts - but = the work is just starting...
=A0...
> I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the
> routing system through a collection of control or management
> interfaces. These allow information, policies, and =A0operational
> parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by
> notification) =A0from the routing system while retaining data
> consistency and coherency across the routers and routing
> infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing
> system.

The part about "retaining data consistency and coherency" i= s pretty
vague and open ended to me. Just what is this supposed to mean?

[Alia] I read it as "don't break routing&= quot; while allowing multiple inputs from
different applications.= =A0
=A0
What might help is to had a couple of "for example" type statemen= ts,
so folk reading the charter have an idea of what sorts of things
people have in mind. And note an example is only an
example. Mentioning an example doesn't restrict the charter to just
that example, but examples can help give people a more concrete idea
of what is envisioned. As it is now, the reader pretty much has to
guess.

[Alia] =A0The list of use-cases ment= ioned in the charter is intended to give some more
concrete ideas= as well as guide/constrain the WG.

Alia=A0
--f46d0402df8804fe6c04d2788d4c-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Fri Jan 4 08:02:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B102221F8464 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:02:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUuheQ6BFlcB for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C925D21F84E8 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p16so16519024vcq.39 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:01:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=K70XF6F0tp+dEZl5ESQ4fqFm1kYwhZ3SHF47LvASfKI=; b=BFEUTAPGgFuK/6+C8MxhggqafEgo+9sg98vBKlOS5Q2bypvtjj+y0dqVDngO8eygTA c2K4d0WFdi34TAleAJ+k+94OzMJdXQJQkJhTc0KJbtcV8KCtCHq5RtGPrq4+VDXC5UJD AVFynZ5xPT2Iw97phERpTziboAwZedHXqyzsls4WE1amBKvM24lmzWuWpLRccBQsXTZ9 DSW8P8uWMBnP+CyC6XcNVQVddHw0gN8aPQtDBbxUum9mwvx3+fQdH+pM4UAdYPk+ePdL RTAfe35ueAC4NWQLt5PW4jbRXExn0xpwWF5FlHwbMu7bbBK+VxlHkBtWYXDrUxpnn1k/ S4jQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.198.135 with SMTP id jc7mr77760053vec.51.1357315315155; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:01:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201301041402.r04E2nRM014704@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <201301041402.r04E2nRM014704@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:01:55 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Thomas Narten Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, Alia Atlas , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:02:03 -0000 Hi Thomas, I agree that your suggestion of examples in charter will help and make it clear to others, AB On 1/4/13, Thomas Narten wrote: > What might help is to had a couple of "for example" type statements, > so folk reading the charter have an idea of what sorts of things > people have in mind. And note an example is only an > example. Mentioning an example doesn't restrict the charter to just > that example, but examples can help give people a more concrete idea > of what is envisioned. As it is now, the reader pretty much has to > guess. > > Thomas > > From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Fri Jan 4 08:15:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9E721F88AC for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pDCG-7JGgp1Q for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f176.google.com (mail-vc0-f176.google.com [209.85.220.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE4E21F88A3 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id fo13so16528137vcb.21 for ; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:15:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=D1UCHVKdspO/h3ticz1sMoBJFxylCa9QgP5tuhsTGLk=; b=t3o5OJRt81HlZ7PzOG4qG8ToidsTVFJL8TDMzvmGFUL3irYnd3vX8/JuWCBqiafhz4 cTIEhmjfCiU4GZAyrX6dXHffLBgRHrZ/BfoBme6XZ47k66/xhkT83gnB1w01kGalV+Jh ZauL3OLMqJ2PIXgMqCGLrzHiMUir3G9DsZXuL/k2Nz4VtqmowOiHqDgEHYsfrj3n+RIW HmZuLxByQuD7BFiworVziKR7X0Prbp08UQS7BZPOO8mEhefWWxAT7cykQ6g/p4uzuYfu PoMZt9Z2+ZdFkabUPhvwv8pb6LIsliC+uDKIwVVQaRaqoJDcghRhcUQcuTEp3sFff0VL 7hFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.8.18 with SMTP id f18mr74834295vcf.14.1357316146317; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:15:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 08:15:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> <201301032214.r03MEnvP005016@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <201301041402.r04E2nRM014704@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:15:45 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Thomas Narten , adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:15:47 -0000 Hi Alia and Adrian, I agree with Thomas that the I2RS scope should be clear to any reader, comment in line; On 1/4/13, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the >> > routing system through a collection of control or management >> > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational >> > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by >> > notification) from the routing system while retaining data >> > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing >> > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing >> > system. >> >> The part about "retaining data consistency and coherency" is pretty >> vague and open ended to me. Just what is this supposed to mean? >> > > [Alia] I read it as "don't break routing" while allowing multiple inputs > from > different applications. exactly, I recommend to add in paragraph your reading to explain the last items in scope paragraph, AB From adrian@olddog.co.uk Sun Jan 6 06:48:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CB621F8765; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:48:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7k+ja23KHJ-n; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54EAD21F8703; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r06EmRZW031831; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 14:48:27 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192189.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.189]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r06EmPqj031810; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 14:48:27 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 14:48:24 -0000 Message-ID: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3sHNNP6DhU6iuoRcijty1jE0yRgg== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: iesg@ietf.org Subject: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:48:30 -0000 Hi, Barry has entered the following comments on the proposed charter. Your comments please. Adrian === Block (2012-12-27) The second paragraph says this: I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system through a collection of control or management interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by notification) from the routing system while retaining data consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing system. Nowhere that I can see does it give me any idea what the target of these interfaces is: what is it that you want having interaction with the routing system? What is it that will inject information, policies, and operational parameters, that can't do so now? Comment (2012-12-27) Especially because charters, including this one, don't have the sorts of citations and references that we have in RFCs, it would be helpful to expand "RIB" and "FIB" (and, for completeness, "BGP") on first use. I know that routing people know those terms cold... but some of us don't (Wikipedia taught be that they're "Routing Information Base" and "Forwarding Information Base", so I'm now better informed). From russw@riw.us Sun Jan 6 06:48:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B35D21F878F for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:48:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uMG-OF-+EwPc for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from da31.namelessnet.net (da31.namelessnet.net [74.124.205.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB3321F8703 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-065-190-156-032.nc.res.rr.com ([65.190.156.32] helo=[192.168.100.51]) by da31.namelessnet.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1TrrWp-00080x-8Z for i2rs@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 06:48:47 -0800 Message-ID: <50E98ED9.90507@riw.us> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 09:48:57 -0500 From: Russ White User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: i2rs@ietf.org References: <047801cddfb2$59f14810$0dd3d830$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Seems clean. You should still use an Antivirus Scanner Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:48:48 -0000 > "In a routing network, the routing system is responsible for > determining how data packets should be forwarded and communicating > that to the relevant forwarding or data plane. The dispersal of both > the relevant information for this determination and the resulting > routes or paths is part of the routing system. The relevant > forwarding or data plane need not be co-located with the portion of > the routing system that determines the routes. However, a routing > system is frequently co-located in a network element with a forwarding > or data plane that contains one or more interface over which data > traffic is forwarded. Thus, the routing system includes control plane > protocols that compute routes and paths for data packets." I would propose putting this in a bulleted list, rather than in paragraph form --it would make for easier reading. == In a routed network, the routing system: - Distributes topology and other state (network metadata) - Uses this network metadata to determine the best path to each given reachable destination attached to the network - Communicates these decisions to the forwarding plane of each forwarding device in the network While processes participating in the routing system are often colocated with the with local forwarding elements, this isn't a necessary condition. Thus, the routing system includes control plane protocols that compute routes and paths for data packets, wherever the processes implementing those protocols may be running. == Does this help clarify any? > While the type of interface is, I think, clear and beaten to death, I'd > like to jump further on it > by suggesting adding "protocol-based" to the list of possible > descriptors. That would make it: Hmmm... Are you trying to further the distance between forwarding and control interfaces here? > "The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture > that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of theinformational models and requirements for encodings and protocols of the control and management protocol-based interfaces." This does help connect the charter to the work at hand better... :-) Russ -- <>< riwhite@verisign.com russw@riw.us From russw@riw.us Sun Jan 6 06:53:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF84121F8765 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:53:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sJvpJim-9tp9 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from da31.namelessnet.net (da31.namelessnet.net [74.124.205.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDC221F8731 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 06:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-065-190-156-032.nc.res.rr.com ([65.190.156.32] helo=[192.168.100.51]) by da31.namelessnet.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Trrav-0008AA-0H for i2rs@ietf.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 06:53:01 -0800 Message-ID: <50E98FD7.4020400@riw.us> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 09:53:11 -0500 From: Russ White User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: i2rs@ietf.org References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Seems clean. You should still use an Antivirus Scanner Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:53:01 -0000 > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing > system. > > Nowhere that I can see does it give me any idea what the target of these > interfaces is: what is it that you want having interaction with the routing > system? What is it that will inject information, policies, and operational > parameters, that can't do so now? I think defining this would be out of scope... ?? We're not trying to define what it is that wants to interact with the control plane in this way, only to provide an interface for any such processes. The use cases point us to examples where these interactions are defined without identifying what the off-board processes actually look like. Or maybe I misunderstand the comment? > Especially because charters, including this one, don't have the sorts of > citations and references that we have in RFCs, it would be helpful to expand > "RIB" and "FIB" (and, for completeness, "BGP") on first use. I know that > routing people know those terms cold... but some of us don't (Wikipedia taught > be that they're "Routing Information Base" and "Forwarding Information Base", > so I'm now better informed). I would agree with this one. :-) Russ -- <>< riwhite@verisign.com russw@riw.us From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Sun Jan 6 12:59:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F13A21F851E; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:59:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ad6P5Yv6iiNL; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f44.google.com (mail-vb0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DEA21F84F9; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id fc26so18488964vbb.17 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=hMj5zjgLU+p6dcwo4Yv2maMaygUj1yKGhNA9oIMzDWQ=; b=FbU0S7Dfn3klQve6Uem3RO14lJ4xZJk2sknBnZpFJRIu1f44d4Bsj4kqR38ROdUzc/ OEbk6yKIVXju3cQQM7qSU1JwloYNfLq30aWgud6IJCHNjvg+4lTDKjbD51GYjmEaE1BY /L9RcBH/JbwaQHlKO1o70bARBvI3JgbTt97da3cQHgqUVMbvoi2uejuvypK0Y8sSWCqg q9ZnBdIxcWM57ddKuM/fr4rfHhOqsEtPR2QMHxOqoMf8WsjzlzLut9Qb/a+MxJkHyCIC n5wvqPLdrfRD1hIzl2tS/2XC8qDI8Ecpa3cjBLhvWQaA1W+YGrEnOT9m2UXrsqPRLOBg eNcg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.149.69 with SMTP id s5mr81465783vcv.23.1357505961039; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:59:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 21:59:20 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 20:59:22 -0000 I totally agree with Barry Leiba's comment. I mentioned before that charter SHOULD be clear to all readers, as he mentioned not only routing expert participants. It will be helpful to make references as he mentioned, as I think the documents in the charter already a good reference but no objection to add others. However, I think giving work-examples and referencing initial I2RS work in progress will be a good start for people to know what it is all about. If the RIB and FIB is not described abreviation in the charter it SHOULD do, but it can be defined more in the documents terminology. Thanks for comments, AB On 1/6/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > Barry has entered the following comments on the proposed charter. > > Your comments please. > > Adrian > > === > > Block (2012-12-27) > > The second paragraph says this: > > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing > system. > > Nowhere that I can see does it give me any idea what the target of these > interfaces is: what is it that you want having interaction with the routing > system? What is it that will inject information, policies, and operational > parameters, that can't do so now? > > > Comment (2012-12-27) > > Especially because charters, including this one, don't have the sorts of > citations and references that we have in RFCs, it would be helpful to > expand > "RIB" and "FIB" (and, for completeness, "BGP") on first use. I know that > routing people know those terms cold... but some of us don't (Wikipedia > taught > be that they're "Routing Information Base" and "Forwarding Information > Base", > so I'm now better informed). > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Sun Jan 6 19:03:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598B021F8550; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 19:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id moaRo6BXz+Li; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 19:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f47.google.com (mail-vb0-f47.google.com [209.85.212.47]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13B821F853A; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 19:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id e21so18532170vbm.20 for ; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 19:03:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=YKM6j9ucsvy/S7ZdNrkwtbQ1+kHwVQ2Rn5+X6i8oyKE=; b=J8hoF2wd6lCPW2ILa/XbV8BgmrxC5jGxNM1B0tG/H2gpE0JLcfhNIR5KeVRI/UiS87 Dn+ogdpoLFXwNfR6JYoR0grcX33fYP8YGRAX0SRp12l3zjSuEBVZVEWMMYF+0YXjtJCj mv9vcwOvp01APQtDdmSCyvh+E+tSeoJMqzWdb3Q2RFw59WF20/J4zMjjDkS2ybb7xfUV 4PLVsFnKoq533/q5QGFcyFtVQElhHqWSv3OdKlPcZN1DogcIA5Qc7bS+iT8ViBJro5Fh /UraEumYY5wNslq3zd5H4ofrWoW9CeWkz4jFxOrfWl6cLOPwav/YUjwvNwxwemYDsoZR pPOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.115.20 with SMTP id g20mr81988748vcq.31.1357527810820; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 19:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 19:03:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 04:03:30 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 03:03:32 -0000 > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing > system. > > Nowhere that I can see does it give me any idea what the target of these > interfaces is: what is it that you want having interaction with the routing > system? I want a protocol/user or multi protocols having that relation with RSs. Why not having interaction? IMO, we let the Use-Case for each document to answer, and others to answer why not. > What is it that will inject information, policies, and operational > parameters, that can't do so now? > Q) Does the RS not need external information?, and does the RS can do every thing for users without help? IF the Q answer is yes, THEN , we can *do so now* and lets close I2RS, ELSE, we need I2RS protocol(s). Abdussalam Baryun University of Glamorgan, UK From adrian@olddog.co.uk Wed Jan 9 14:06:59 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FEB621F844C; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:06:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ECdI91tXsJ3h; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF7521F844A; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09M6ut8018135; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:56 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192150.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09M6sfu018123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:56 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:56 -0000 Message-ID: <018801cdeeb5$a4ee3be0$eecab3a0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3utVVa+eRi6ZlPROuil/8Wj+yYrQ== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: iesg@ietf.org Subject: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:06:59 -0000 http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/ I made some changes to reflect recent discussions... - Expanded RIB and FIB (thanks Barry Leiba). - Expanded BGP (per Barry Leiba) - Replace first paragraph with a clearer statement of what the routing system is and what it does using a bullet list (per Alia Atlas, Thomas Narten, and Russ White) - In (old) second paragraph, add "protocol-based" to the description of the interfaces that are being built as part of the I2RS work (per Alia Atlas). - In (old) third paragraph, clarify that the encodings and protocols are for the I2RS interfaces (per Alia Atlas) - Changed the intro to the use cases to be specific rather than open-ended (per Russ White) - Delete "and to the policies used to construct the Forwarding Information Base (FIB)" from the first use case as this basically covers the other use cases (which are more detailed). Retain the use case of access to the RIB (per Russ White) I hope we have some form of stability and don't need to flog the poor old horse too much more. Cheers, Adrian From adrian@olddog.co.uk Wed Jan 9 14:07:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBE221F8610; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.513 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.513 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ChWuOVgwjdN; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766D121F85D0; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09M6uct018129; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:56 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192150.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09M6sft018123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:55 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Barry Leiba'" References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:56 -0000 Message-ID: <018701cdeeb5$a468df40$ed3a9dc0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFh95HEIW8BavmSKLCswlltHNR9qpkZb8pA Content-Language: en-gb Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:07:03 -0000 Hi Barry, The discussion of your review comments went on on the I2RS list without fully copying you on the responses. Let me try to summarise where we got to and add some detail myself. > Block (2012-12-27) > > The second paragraph says this: > > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the > routing system through a collection of control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data > consistency and coherency across the routers and routing > infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing > system. > > Nowhere that I can see does it give me any idea what the target of these > interfaces is: what is it that you want having interaction with the routing > system? What is it that will inject information, policies, and operational > parameters, that can't do so now? I having a little difficulty parsing your questions, so let me give some broad-scope answers. The object of the interfaces is the routing system. I think this is clear in the second paragraph of the draft charter. The purpose of the interactions at the interfaces are, I think, captured in the second sentence of the second paragraph and (perhaps more importantly) in the use cases. The subject of the interfaces is some lump of stuff that decides to poke the routing system. In the architecture (I-D) the subject end of the interface is called the I2RS Client and serves one or more "applications". We got a bit hung up about what constitutes an application: is it, for example, a P2P streaming application, or is it a tool that is responsible for shaping the network? In the end, the answer appeared to be "yes". Now, on the list it was suggested that this is and should be deliberately out of scope... | We're not trying to define what it is that wants to interact with the | control plane in this way, only to provide an interface for any such | processes. The use cases point us to examples where these interactions | are defined without identifying what the off-board processes actually | look like. That leaves us with your last part of the question which I will invert to read: what can be done today? The problem here is that there is a feeling that the existing standardised protocols and encoding languages are missing features to provide the necessary functions. There is a lot of debate on this, which is why it is necessary to do requirements work. Additionally, we need information models for the things that are to be injected/retrieved. Of course, it is likely that in a number of vendors' router quite a few of the things can be injected or retrieved using CLI, proprietary protocols, proprietary extensions to existing protocols, or proprietary schemas for existing encoding languages. But that is not a standard solution. > Comment (2012-12-27) > > Especially because charters, including this one, don't have the sorts of > citations and references that we have in RFCs, it would be helpful to expand > "RIB" and "FIB" (and, for completeness, "BGP") on first use. I know that > routing people know those terms cold... but some of us don't (Wikipedia taught > be that they're "Routing Information Base" and "Forwarding Information Base", > so I'm now better informed). OK, we can do that. Hoping this clears your issues. Cheers, Adrian From adrian@olddog.co.uk Wed Jan 9 14:07:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 739F621F845E; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:07:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dlVsGFRyPmnT; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3769621F844C; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09M70wD018169; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:07:00 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192150.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09M6sg0018123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:59 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:06:56 -0000 Message-ID: <019501cdeeb5$a6fea550$f4fbeff0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3usiL1+WDmA5HCRMiLG8FryKhExQ== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: [i2rs] Stephen Farrell's Comment on the I2RS Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:07:09 -0000 Stephen wrote > None of these are blocking for me, but I'd appreciate answers, > especially to the first. > > - I'm confused about the single ADMD thing - how does that > square with mitigating DoS? I'd have thought that many DDoS > mitigations might require co-operation between at least two > domains. A solution that fits this charter might be too > limited to be useful. Agree, but let's not boil the ocean on day one. Just because a solution is only applicable in a single domain does not preclude extending it in the future. In fact, the control structure in I2RS is an application talking to 1 or more I2RS clients talking to one or more I2RS agents. The limitation in the charter basically precludes the I2RS client being in a different admin domain from the I2RS agent - going there would make for interesting trust and security relationships. Architecturally, there is nothing to preclude an application talking to I2RS clients in different admin domains, or an application talking to another application in another domain - however, these interactions do not form part of the work of the WG and so do not need to be in scope. > - I'm confused about why this WG is needed - is there a real > prospect of not picking openflow for this or are we talking > about some other API? Many questions arise: 1. What makes you so sure that anyone would pick OpenFlow? 2. Don't you consider NetFlow (which is how I read your question first time!), ForCES, or any other IETF protocol might not be a real candidate? 3. If OpenFlow was picked where would the work to model IP routers be best carried out (this is NOT the forwarding plane that is being modelled)? 4. If IETF protocol X was picked would the work be in this WG or an existing WG? 5. Where do we do the work on requirements and (abstract) information models? > - Shouldn't this recognise the SDN term/fad somehow so that > buzzword compliant people end up on the right mailing list? I've never heard the term "SDN" before. Could you clearly and concisely explain it to me? Actually, I think that the term "SDN" is so last year. Quite possibly, I2RS fits into part of the SDN problem space. Quite possibly, calling it SDN just derails everyone into thinking this is a shiny thing and not something that people really want to build and deploy in IP networks. > - What's the relationship between this and the putative SDNRG > in the IRTF? Has that been discussed with e.g. Lars? AFAIK, IETF WGs produce protocol specs for stuff people want to build and deploy soon. The valuable work done by the IRTF RGs investigates longer-term research-based issues. The usual suspects (e.g. Dave Meyer who has been chairing the SDNRG work) are on the I2RS list and are (I think) supportive. Lars, of course, sees all proposals for new WGs and can comment. > - A nit: "A routing system is all or part of a routing > network. A part of a routing network may be a single router > or a collection of routers" reads oddly to me. Are you > including non-routing hosts or not? What about switches? > What about the wires? Oh, gods, how we thrashed on this text! And we're not done yet. Yes, I believe we are excluding non-routing hosts as they have no routing components that we can influence. We are definitely excluding switches - they do not route. AFAIK wires cannot be configured (I might be wrong on this, I don't keep up-to-date with my Physics). Anyway, they don't play a part in the routing system, although the interfaces that may be on the end of wires or groups of wires do play a part. Others may like to comment. Cheers, Adrian From stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Wed Jan 9 14:37:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C419221F84B2; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:37:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t+4-Sk-lD1Rg; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70C221F8499; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B8CBE3B; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:37:06 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fn09in3-miF4; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:37:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.87.48.11] (unknown [86.44.78.176]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8FB07BE33; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:37:05 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <50EDF111.20509@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:37:05 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/17.0 Thunderbird/17.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <019501cdeeb5$a6fea550$f4fbeff0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <019501cdeeb5$a6fea550$f4fbeff0$@olddog.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Stephen Farrell's Comment on the I2RS Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:37:29 -0000 Hiya, On 01/09/2013 10:06 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Stephen wrote > >> None of these are blocking for me, but I'd appreciate answers, >> especially to the first. >> >> - I'm confused about the single ADMD thing - how does that >> square with mitigating DoS? I'd have thought that many DDoS >> mitigations might require co-operation between at least two >> domains. A solution that fits this charter might be too >> limited to be useful. > > Agree, but let's not boil the ocean on day one. > Just because a solution is only applicable in a single domain does not preclude > extending it in the future. > In fact, the control structure in I2RS is an application talking to 1 or more > I2RS clients talking to one or more I2RS agents. The limitation in the charter > basically precludes the I2RS client being in a different admin domain from the > I2RS agent - going there would make for interesting trust and security > relationships. Architecturally, there is nothing to preclude an application > talking to I2RS clients in different admin domains, or an application talking to > another application in another domain - however, these interactions do not form > part of the work of the WG and so do not need to be in scope. Fair enough. I guess I don't know myself how this might fit with DDoS mitigation (nor do I know much about DDoS mitigation as it happens;-) but if the scope allows the kind of discussion above then that seems fine. >> - I'm confused about why this WG is needed - is there a real >> prospect of not picking openflow for this or are we talking >> about some other API? > > Many questions arise: > 1. What makes you so sure that anyone would pick OpenFlow? I'm not sure of anything. I was asking. I'll take your answer as being "yes, there is":-) And that's an ok answer as far as I'm concerned. > 2. Don't you consider NetFlow (which is how I read your question > first time!), ForCES, or any other IETF protocol might not be a > real candidate? > 3. If OpenFlow was picked where would the work to model IP > routers be best carried out (this is NOT the forwarding plane > that is being modelled)? > 4. If IETF protocol X was picked would the work be in this WG or > an existing WG? > 5. Where do we do the work on requirements and (abstract) > information models? > >> - Shouldn't this recognise the SDN term/fad somehow so that >> buzzword compliant people end up on the right mailing list? > > I've never heard the term "SDN" before. Could you clearly and concisely explain > it to me? Sure. Its a recent buzz-acronym. :-) > Actually, I think that the term "SDN" is so last year. Quite possibly, I2RS fits > into part of the SDN problem space. Quite possibly, calling it SDN just derails > everyone into thinking this is a shiny thing and not something that people > really want to build and deploy in IP networks. > >> - What's the relationship between this and the putative SDNRG >> in the IRTF? Has that been discussed with e.g. Lars? > > AFAIK, IETF WGs produce protocol specs for stuff people want to build and deploy > soon. The valuable work done by the IRTF RGs investigates longer-term > research-based issues. > > The usual suspects (e.g. Dave Meyer who has been chairing the SDNRG work) are on > the I2RS list and are (I think) supportive. Lars, of course, sees all proposals > for new WGs and can comment. Yep. That all seems good. >> - A nit: "A routing system is all or part of a routing >> network. A part of a routing network may be a single router >> or a collection of routers" reads oddly to me. Are you >> including non-routing hosts or not? What about switches? >> What about the wires? > > Oh, gods, how we thrashed on this text! And we're not done yet. My sympathies. Hard thing to get right. Cheers, S. > Yes, I believe we are excluding non-routing hosts as they have no routing > components that we can influence. > We are definitely excluding switches - they do not route. > AFAIK wires cannot be configured (I might be wrong on this, I don't keep > up-to-date with my Physics). Anyway, they don't play a part in the routing > system, although the interfaces that may be on the end of wires or groups of > wires do play a part. > > Others may like to comment. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > From adrian@olddog.co.uk Wed Jan 9 14:51:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5E021F871C; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:51:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHuHGUv5GGPL; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEE221F8843; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09MpPYL030417; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:51:25 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192140.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.140]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r09MpMxZ030399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:51:24 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Stephen Farrell'" References: <019501cdeeb5$a6fea550$f4fbeff0$@olddog.co.uk> <50EDF111.20509@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <50EDF111.20509@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 22:51:24 -0000 Message-ID: <01c101cdeebb$db912530$92b36f90$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFrYmOECOvCnWGoCl5fST3G4PXakQIqcbnjmPVfO9A= Content-Language: en-gb Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Stephen Farrell's Comment on the I2RS Proposed Charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 22:51:35 -0000 Thanks Stephen, > > I've never heard the term "SDN" before. Could you clearly and concisely explain > > it to me? > > Sure. Its a recent buzz-acronym. :-) Ah, that would be an RBA. A From barryleiba@gmail.com Wed Jan 9 15:40:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72C411E809B; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:40:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.191 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.191 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.214, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NTjsaqhaR2Mq; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f41.google.com (mail-la0-f41.google.com [209.85.215.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9424521F8431; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f41.google.com with SMTP id em20so2503307lab.14 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:40:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=gN1xGK5Sj20i6eSfyjdbMGEx0Mmrb/JyEjAGyKNjFh8=; b=e912rvaBvp2JHoC9ZYyZwo0ZmHmRUX3Ajf4Sfs1bNaeFXTW9R75HRa54URI8gYxZQx Dmtk9MQC3Qi9rw3SuH0wh2WKkfSWKxUPloeyBNM1M5QXtRqn+agYcNuATnJ3MOZfiZpZ RARdX9dOnzGMh57lOCaG3bDWCQtHPx1wEkxKaDd9dfKFdrNrpII/g2aTGRrP4zrKsxSe sFBJeF+IWMp9pNMTXNYzEfe+eUJ7FZfMmockC1OG0Qls+MfcW4Vxp1+saEt2mNjYj2J6 Ou2sxxRW7RmpXZRefppIdr+pOn0Re38dsBkZdrAu10s4ps0wJ1SGd7I76+lBa7lXKD53 Pmbg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.47.75 with SMTP id b11mr65573359lan.14.1357774814220; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:40:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.81.194 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:40:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <018701cdeeb5$a468df40$ed3a9dc0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> <018701cdeeb5$a468df40$ed3a9dc0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 18:40:14 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _asAAqAeQoULbhHhQ8-Q0ce1Um4 Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Adrian Farrel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, IESG Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 23:40:16 -0000 Hi, Adrian (and i2rs gang), and thanks for the response. > The subject of the interfaces Yes, that's what I was asking about. > is some lump of stuff that decides to poke the > routing system. In the architecture (I-D) the subject end of the interface is > called the I2RS Client and serves one or more "applications". We got a bit hung > up about what constitutes an application: is it, for example, a P2P streaming > application, or is it a tool that is responsible for shaping the network? In the > end, the answer appeared to be "yes". I would feel happier if some sense of that could be in the charter (but see below). In general, when we propose creating an interface to X, we have some idea of who or what we want to be using that interface (the subject, as you say). I understand the use cases document will go into that in much more detail, but I'd be happier if the charter said *something* about it. I don't know whether you're talking about having a data center's operation & management system using the interface, having a web server that sits in a customer's office using the interface, or having a web browser that runs in an end-user's iPad using the interface. If the answer really is, "Yes, all of those," then a few words in the charter should be possible, no? "This interface is expected to be used by systems as diverse as a data center's operation/management system, a web server, and a peer-to-peer streaming application. The working group will provide details of these and other applications as it develops its use cases." Perhaps something like that could be added to the paragraph that begins "I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system"? > | We're not trying to define what it is that wants to interact with the > | control plane in this way, only to provide an interface for any such > | processes. The use cases point us to examples where these interactions > | are defined without identifying what the off-board processes actually > | look like. I won't block this further, but I really think that leaving out *all* explanation of this makes for a charter that will be hard for people who are not already familiar with what you're doing to read and understand. The point here isn't to rein in the use cases (I'm not asking for that and wouldn't want that), but to make things clear to someone reading the charter. I'll clear the block and put what remains into a comment. Barry From barryleiba@gmail.com Wed Jan 9 15:47:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B671F0CF5; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:47:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.186 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.186 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.209, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EwsVFqZzxBSL; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f44.google.com (mail-la0-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBED41F0C6A; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f44.google.com with SMTP id fr10so2505279lab.3 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:47:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Q7TPbz1s6ks6/Zk25c7bOsNHFkmqBoIdnuLu7NJq20Q=; b=w16rSrqCDvXJBzfVDzIiG2YKU0ao3S4tCpiZ0gaFjUD38qBYf3zvbtSZniIWIoloE1 JXxygiCXoDLKHAhReVnDc1woX2NgLa0ahL2lntpm4g2hoY5rfkoRzLVDX+U+AkJR/whO uPd9wjFkZA6PJjMjvtUINeI5zMYz4eVjXOKmsIogBDJmwUbLQFpA0JHGopMY2YpA9G5k GzHnmutSQ4gclzndTnyt8UGZg0/bJmKYtyZxvF7FyS1kvF+YgYAlaZfxotbGqE2cCu1K Um4AM+YuQXDLL7E+7fMUso2lguSej0O5/pyd1+eKESuTcuLfb1FCCLj4ZeDxkea9kNGN aRbg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.50.205 with SMTP id e13mr28535072lbo.57.1357775262514; Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:47:42 -0800 (PST) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.81.194 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 15:47:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <018801cdeeb5$a4ee3be0$eecab3a0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <018801cdeeb5$a4ee3be0$eecab3a0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 18:47:42 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3TUPMqN4Q01J83yQ7d9fmlec3ec Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Adrian Farrel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, IESG Subject: Re: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 23:47:45 -0000 > - Expanded RIB and FIB (thanks Barry Leiba). But, he-he-he, ... > - Delete "and to the policies used to construct the Forwarding Information > Base (FIB)" from the first use case as this basically covers the other use > cases (which are more detailed). Retain the use case of access to the RIB > (per Russ White) ...this one removed the expansion of "FIB", don't'cha know. > I hope we have some form of stability and don't need to flog the poor old horse > too much more. Modulo my response to the other note, yeh. Barry From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 10 03:18:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A1821F892E; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFCr-YXZCcTw; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B65021F8910; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ABI4V6022950; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:04 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192140.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.140]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ABI2HD022938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:04 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Barry Leiba'" References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> <018701cdeeb5$a468df40$ed3a9dc0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <027201cdef24$29be4950$7d3adbf0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFh95HEIW8BavmSKLCswlltHNR9qgFhs+PqAhF4mtWY/r624A== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, 'IESG' Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:12 -0000 It's a bit vague, but how about we added... "It is envisioned that users of the I2RS interfaces will be management applications, network controllers, and user applications that make specific demands on the network." IMHO this covers all bases, but in doing so doesn't say much. OTOH, if it helps to bring sunshine to an otherwise gray world... Cheers, Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: barryleiba@gmail.com [mailto:barryleiba@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Barry > Leiba > Sent: 09 January 2013 23:40 > To: Adrian Farrel > Cc: IESG; i2rs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter > > Hi, Adrian (and i2rs gang), and thanks for the response. > > > The subject of the interfaces > > Yes, that's what I was asking about. > > > is some lump of stuff that decides to poke the > > routing system. In the architecture (I-D) the subject end of the interface is > > called the I2RS Client and serves one or more "applications". We got a bit hung > > up about what constitutes an application: is it, for example, a P2P streaming > > application, or is it a tool that is responsible for shaping the network? In the > > end, the answer appeared to be "yes". > > I would feel happier if some sense of that could be in the charter > (but see below). In general, when we propose creating an interface to > X, we have some idea of who or what we want to be using that interface > (the subject, as you say). I understand the use cases document will > go into that in much more detail, but I'd be happier if the charter > said *something* about it. I don't know whether you're talking about > having a data center's operation & management system using the > interface, having a web server that sits in a customer's office using > the interface, or having a web browser that runs in an end-user's iPad > using the interface. > > If the answer really is, "Yes, all of those," then a few words in the > charter should be possible, no? "This interface is expected to be > used by systems as diverse as a data center's operation/management > system, a web server, and a peer-to-peer streaming application. The > working group will provide details of these and other applications as > it develops its use cases." Perhaps something like that could be > added to the paragraph that begins "I2RS facilitates real-time or > event driven interaction with the routing system"? > > > | We're not trying to define what it is that wants to interact with the > > | control plane in this way, only to provide an interface for any such > > | processes. The use cases point us to examples where these interactions > > | are defined without identifying what the off-board processes actually > > | look like. > > I won't block this further, but I really think that leaving out *all* > explanation of this makes for a charter that will be hard for people > who are not already familiar with what you're doing to read and > understand. The point here isn't to rein in the use cases (I'm not > asking for that and wouldn't want that), but to make things clear to > someone reading the charter. > > I'll clear the block and put what remains into a comment. > > Barry From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 10 03:18:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2112121F8967; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6R6SPqupzzd; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F60221F8931; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ABIAP2022988; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:10 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192140.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.140]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ABI2HH022938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:09 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Benoit Claise'" , "'The IESG'" Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <027901cdef24$2cde26f0$869a74d0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3vIv6rbDrnoEMORIaSiIA3kdSuQQ== Content-Language: en-gb Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Benoit Claise's Block on charter-ietf-i2rs-00-05: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:15 -0000 Hi Benoit, > BLOCK: >=20 > Three points I want to discuss. >=20 > 1. >=20 > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the = routing > system through a collection of protocol-based control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data = consistency > and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, and = among > multiple interactions with the routing system >=20 > You mentioned multiple management interfaces. Good, because that's a > fact, and will be a fact for many years to come. > Now, I was really after some text taking into account the data > consistency and coherency across the different management interfaces. > Maybe this is covered by the "among multiple interactions with the > routing system", I read multiple times and I'm not sure: I would like = to > have clearly spell out. Basically, don't break any existing management > interface. > The problem I want to solve is: a set of API that will be THE way to > interact with the routing system without any consistency with the CLI, > the show commands, a read MIB table, a YANG module. > Note: I'm not dreaming, I actually had this specific discussion. OK. Added to the end of the paragraph you quoted... The I2RS interfaces will co-exist with existing configuration and=20 management systems and interfaces. > 2. > Same old discussion about framework versus architecture. > So you included the two terms to make me happy? ;-) >=20 > The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture > that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of = the > informational models and requirements for encodings and protocols for > the I2RS interfaces. > > And now, we have a new term: architecture framework >=20 > Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining = the > architecture framework >=20 > I don't understand how you could have this "architecture framework" > before the use cases? > IMHO, the framework and architecture terms are not suitable. What = you're > after is the explanation of the required building blocks in the use = case > document(s). >=20 > And then, the framework or architecture (pick up the term you want) = will > explain: > to solve the use cases A, B, C, we need the building blocks D, E, F, = with > the interfaces G, H, I, the data model J, K, L, and the protocol M. > However, that document will only exist in the next charter We discussed this at some length on voice and agreed to disagree a = little. However, to ease this I am adding clarification that the = architecture/framework is "high-level" and "describes the basic = building-blocks." > 3; > During the BoF, many use cases were discussed. > You asked: do we want to limit the use cases? Answer: yes > You asked: is 3 a reasonable number? Answer: yes > So how many do you have? It's not clear from the bullet points below " = - > Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS as follows:" As we discussed, the length of the list of use cases has increased, but = the breadth of scope has narrowed. This is because we have replaced a = few large and wide use cases each with several more narrow cases. We agree that the whole point of making such a list is that it will keep = us away from ocean-boiling. We also agreed that I-Ds for other use cases = would not be considered by the WG under this charter.=20 Lastly we discussed how many RFCs might result from this list. My answer = was that the worst case is 6 (one for each use case), but that it is = possible (even likely) that authors would combine their work. It is too = early to tell definitively which use cases might end up in a combined = document (maybe all, maybe none), and there is nothing to say in the = charter except for the existing statement about not adding to the use = cases without rechartering. > COMMENT: >=20 > EDITORIAL: >=20 > "Collocated" and "with the with" in >=20 > While processes participating in the routing system are often = colocated > with the with local forwarding elements, this isn't a necessary = condition. Yup. Thanks. Adrian From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 10 03:18:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F053921F8960; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id su9VZmN-3nMZ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D19321F8941; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 03:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ABI8ws022974; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:08 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192140.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.140]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ABI2HF022938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:07 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Barry Leiba'" References: <018801cdeeb5$a4ee3be0$eecab3a0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <027701cdef24$2bb49b10$831dd130$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQK+dxWw/oR3lhtKxzyeoCRZMuKRnwHdVxCTllJthlA= Content-Language: en-gb Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, 'IESG' Subject: Re: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:18:15 -0000 > > - Expanded RIB and FIB (thanks Barry Leiba). > > But, he-he-he, ... > > > - Delete "and to the policies used to construct the Forwarding Information > > Base (FIB)" from the first use case as this basically covers the other use > > cases (which are more detailed). Retain the use case of access to the RIB > > (per Russ White) > > ...this one removed the expansion of "FIB", don't'cha know. Duh-oh! Fixed in the next revision. A From barryleiba@gmail.com Thu Jan 10 05:18:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4924D21F868E; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:18:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.176 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.176 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XX3ar5E9TMWv; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f50.google.com (mail-la0-f50.google.com [209.85.215.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B16721F84C2; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f50.google.com with SMTP id fs13so561337lab.9 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:18:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=yFPtmqfsIymXEtIVpaN4WSG3K4f2u7rK8ART+yEmXSE=; b=MzaoTroWMtHSErGhXi6TJqZ3T6gh2k6zrBvdIL6whW4b6DlDvmmx3ieUX57OG1rETy pNf1cdth3xbKUItdzL34vctWNvuCmAf0TAyFB5jpUuB3mppc5ht1kGii/427aM1hiosp CpR037jQy5Zoh5JnJZgEYPP+aUdiRDJZD0KViovqEja65OpU9xzwoShwxNN+vYfZLam5 5g8vyXljnWa148vQehmXvjmY6zHScZmno7hkQG/dkUrJDq4p2bjli6mwbD7NnCZGjg4L 2b7fo2wOhJ5cRefwfrgqW/V09RNNc3RZNxmchWeSEzOuzz5Z/xkq4fYIcYP0TPLTo0W9 PAJA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.134.243 with SMTP id pn19mr68258469lab.11.1357823884723; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:18:04 -0800 (PST) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.81.194 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:18:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <027201cdef24$29be4950$7d3adbf0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> <018701cdeeb5$a468df40$ed3a9dc0$@olddog.co.uk> <027201cdef24$29be4950$7d3adbf0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:18:04 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: GUE6OAi9x3pVlVJ7mgA0zv6hO-s Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442724851047204d2ef024a Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" , IESG Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:18:07 -0000 --f46d0442724851047204d2ef024a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thursday, January 10, 2013, Adrian Farrel wrote: > It's a bit vague, but how about we added... > > "It is envisioned that users of the I2RS interfaces will be management > applications, network controllers, and user applications that make specific > demands on the network." > Yeh, fine with me; carry on. Barry --f46d0442724851047204d2ef024a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thursday, January 10, 2013, Adrian Farrel wrote:
It's a bit vague, but how about we added...
"It is envisioned that users of the I2RS interfaces will be management=
applications, network controllers, and user applications that make specific=
demands on the network."

Yeh, fine with me; carry on.
Barry=A0
--f46d0442724851047204d2ef024a-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 10 05:26:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F9C21F85D7; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:26:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TEDZdas3IXJ9; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C4A21F8432; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id fw7so445441vcb.3 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:26:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=H/Jx3GWPym5/LZ5IcMdTp6rg2fP3I9YPgq5pRSy4u4w=; b=0QoSTsUn9tmX1U5xI2Xo5u8BQObE/Mqj/0wsphUuRx86MlUYSgSEMrUN/PvfViS4AD ePyVVhSRYMowzQMU8lkxpizJqOAyCJV1vaHE8Y4fdIWRxIv5iHhWpZw3Oa8VV2CDndBb /AWdxKJZ79mVcMTr3yv/C+LHtYQZFx/5mutdBH+O4yUtGZkp+dTwNqUrsPBR+3EvYo/x DzlYOQ5H04yyoLYK7arz31h8JrEWJyp4TimFXHAc/1IXKLjLzUCyA+I6+oY6UHbfpGPD bFXRpcccvdid53K1DLfytLm4gkbKjpLS97C0mAOWHP6ZHtnkgIWo5VL5GLf4SeEzUOMw xZrg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.149.69 with SMTP id s5mr91044140vcv.23.1357824401736; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:26:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <014a01cdec1c$e3609710$aa21c530$@olddog.co.uk> <018701cdeeb5$a468df40$ed3a9dc0$@olddog.co.uk> <027201cdef24$29be4950$7d3adbf0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:26:41 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "i2rs@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , IESG Subject: Re: [i2rs] Barry Leiba's comments on proposed I2RS charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:26:45 -0000 >> It's a bit vague, but how about we added... >> >> "It is envisioned that users of the I2RS interfaces will be management >> applications, network controllers, and user applications that make >> specific >> demands on the network." Yes that will be best and clear, AB From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 10 05:38:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F64521F87F3 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:38:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oa61CgvHgI2z for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vc0-f174.google.com (mail-vc0-f174.google.com [209.85.220.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE4521F845E for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id d16so440229vcd.33 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:38:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+emyyFPcxc+eahaYE/nNfYHSnHA36wyfuGdwMElFtQ8=; b=00SXTr8+7tVDU4pM8jhQJNyMBLkE0lydMlxC263NNYyto3TAFqVpH7sskJn9Ulp2qe F3oo6nBaXlCWWBXcW+BsR1fLTGWnKFFk5272VC4qpXC0Fs1xsPkr25EaLcOpndUSSOI3 6QYF+moIsjWFAIwUoED5w9EvJI6WZQ2VpH0bGmyyDMQGWHQOAuSE8Av3EH7kjQUjGVM3 NEHSxknNTsBkYiV7iOw9/DseXmQn2CA1SwC31spol5NnegU4wu9ndKrV9txq5aKZqpsz ZwBQiitngu5WLnTVeYeGAyOJUOEsyHP72kDBdGUX6gB5FxdVpBgaHjgwmbejMy0AIgD6 34zA== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.76.73 with SMTP id i9mr78623773vdw.25.1357825107863; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 05:38:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <027901cdef24$2cde26f0$869a74d0$@olddog.co.uk> References: <027901cdef24$2cde26f0$869a74d0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:38:27 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: "i2rs@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [i2rs] Benoit Claise's Block on charter-ietf-i2rs-00-05: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:38:29 -0000 Hi my comments in line, >> Same old discussion about framework versus architecture. >> So you included the two terms to make me happy? ;-) >> >> The I2RS working group works to develop a framework and architecture >> that will enable specific use cases, and lead to an understanding of the >> informational models and requirements for encodings and protocols for >> the I2RS interfaces. >> >> And now, we have a new term: architecture framework >> >> Jul 2013 : Request publication of an Informational document defining the >> architecture framework >> >> I don't understand how you could have this "architecture framework" >> before the use cases? >> IMHO, the framework and architecture terms are not suitable. What you're >> after is the explanation of the required building blocks in the use case >> document(s). I agree the use case should be clear in the doc before the framework, >> >> And then, the framework or architecture (pick up the term you want) will >> explain: >> to solve the use cases A, B, C, we need the building blocks D, E, F, with >> the interfaces G, H, I, the data model J, K, L, and the protocol M. >> However, that document will only exist in the next charter I tried to explain that we should not follow documents in charter, but follow approaches, however, the group wanted another way, >> 3; >> During the BoF, many use cases were discussed. >> You asked: do we want to limit the use cases? Answer: yes >> You asked: is 3 a reasonable number? Answer: yes >> So how many do you have? It's not clear from the bullet points below " - >> Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS as follows:" > I agree to have 3 clear main use cases that can start the works' flow for this year, > We agree that the whole point of making such a list is that it will keep us > away from ocean-boiling. We also agreed that I-Ds for other use cases would > not be considered by the WG under this charter. > > Lastly we discussed how many RFCs might result from this list. My answer was > that the worst case is 6 (one for each use case), but that it is possible > (even likely) that authors would combine their work. It is too early to tell > definitively which use cases might end up in a combined document (maybe all, > maybe none), and there is nothing to say in the charter except for the > existing statement about not adding to the use cases without rechartering. If that is the situation then we need to specify those 6 or so cases, or rechartering is a good idea in future, AB > >> COMMENT: >> >> EDITORIAL: >> >> "Collocated" and "with the with" in >> >> While processes participating in the routing system are often colocated >> with the with local forwarding elements, this isn't a necessary >> condition. > > Yup. > Thanks. > > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 10 09:47:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FF221F8A2F for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:47:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tlLl2AjB0PBD for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (asmtp3.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C92521F8A1E for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0AHlkEc025109 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:47:46 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192150.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0AHliHK025092 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:47:46 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:47:46 -0000 Message-ID: <001e01cdef5a$9a42da20$cec88e60$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3vWpAGCtOYkIoQR1WPANRgroon3A== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [i2rs] IESG seems to be happy with the charter X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:47:50 -0000 Hi, The IESG just OK'ed the draft charter to go for IETF review and be posted on the New Work list for comment by other SDOs. Expect an announcement soon. We're currently at the -07 revision. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-i2rs/ Cheers, Adrian From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Jan 11 03:50:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4366521F87B6 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 03:50:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id II-0z8jwKKBW for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 03:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A41621F87AD for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 03:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0BBoHUm021292 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:50:17 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192060.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0BBoFC8021280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:50:16 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:50:15 -0000 Message-ID: <012701cdeff1$d44a0530$7cde0f90$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3v8cVFR5aU8FWSQfeAESCrwcbtew== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [i2rs] I2RS in Orlando X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:50:20 -0000 Folks, It looks like we have a good chance of meeting in Orlando. I have submitted a BoF request (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki#) Note, however, that this is a backstop. It is my intention that we will be chartered before Orlando and will meet as a normal WG. Thanks, Adrian From russw@riw.us Fri Jan 11 06:29:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A7D21F866D for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 06:29:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XLWiJeNUQYBH for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 06:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from da31.namelessnet.net (da31.namelessnet.net [74.124.205.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A6E21F8629 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 06:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-065-190-156-032.nc.res.rr.com ([65.190.156.32] helo=[192.168.100.51]) by da31.namelessnet.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1TtfbV-0004Wv-7J for i2rs@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 06:29:06 -0800 Message-ID: <50F021B3.5010609@riw.us> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:29:07 -0500 From: Russ White User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: i2rs@ietf.org References: <012701cdeff1$d44a0530$7cde0f90$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <012701cdeff1$d44a0530$7cde0f90$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Seems clean. You should still use an Antivirus Scanner Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS in Orlando X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:29:08 -0000 Great! Thanks for all the work on this! :-) Russ On 1/11/2013 6:50 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Folks, > > It looks like we have a good chance of meeting in Orlando. > > I have submitted a BoF request (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki#) > Note, however, that this is a backstop. It is my intention that we will be > chartered before Orlando and will meet as a normal WG. > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > -- <>< riwhite@verisign.com russw@riw.us From akatlas@gmail.com Fri Jan 11 08:48:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B437721F8838 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:48:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qvE0f4nBgcHL for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-f182.google.com (mail-ia0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7D921F8809 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f182.google.com with SMTP id x2so1706498iad.41 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wI7e1pABxGNaSkhD/51MU7atwxeJFFF9s9Aq7IfJI0Y=; b=jqLLPXqmqWnLyq9PxSClJih6vzJEERHWB8H8pA1b5+agNVDsy0gaF9KhlEV3X/KhHF vGsg3jFvRaD+XsxsLbG05m5ohzx67nFoqc+EJKlyBmscxRI01iFS6MdcAgkEVt46SMQL FbZckeYrqnotTXLzIroZzbXfm3ciKatIcdRmug592HygMyL5DdY8HzaQR1USdKS31920 9P6SBdgpptjQl1fe6P2zKB++5Wg4wyMKy2eJVpjc56yqG2u2NAKgBSI3Afl2cHAe7fya bOKCMXAhZMB9WbpWnCSgnxyftxZD+wMWsflTiGvS5JGNOadiD7R2VlokXv/ZBAK/H5gY CEaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.56.232 with SMTP id d8mr9585233igq.112.1357922915880; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:48:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0402df88088da904d306118d Subject: [i2rs] time to revise/get drafts in: deadline is Feb 18 for 00 drafts X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:48:38 -0000 --f46d0402df88088da904d306118d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'd just like to remind everyone that internet-draft deadlines are coming up - only 5 weeks away. New versions will also give us something more than the charter to discuss :-) Alia --f46d0402df88088da904d306118d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'd just like to remind everyone that internet-draft deadlines are coming up - only 5 weeks away.
New versions will also give us something more than the charter to discuss :-)

Alia
--f46d0402df88088da904d306118d-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Fri Jan 11 13:31:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D868721F894D for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yXDQ17IJYSun for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1603C21F892C for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id l1so1894340vba.13 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:31:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=TJxNMDtXIaugbZrw7Glwp5+xEvGfWmUKV9cpfAMi1p0=; b=ZEfQ/IDQagN6rAkja5gNAIhF2ByD4a7iVYPaNz6VKXrUKWv4UtkFyqNJN9ULb4ZnbR 2cfS/k91LLW3dit2OF+iiOdgq1p1u2Scs8ILEvHsQdKgyFqcKsHDlphWA+L2z4mYFL/T PC8z6TEBEJe7N+PNl6yqG0FiM32xxU9ZrllZ/m8kjhzu08QHJsEd4s5cogwYqF3ttWFp aXZgNyJhaNOOxpZZ4TL3gXcmOHQqIUPXtQfOoWpbU+O1AJ9AR5TN6iatMfhSbOJyXrOv tknaBzIwJJbFZMrM/xs7WAKBX9xBeoBYKlBzqSd70zvhG/CcpsWM3HoPpvRF6tivoIDp LyYg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.149.69 with SMTP id s5mr95646525vcv.23.1357939878455; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:31:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <012701cdeff1$d44a0530$7cde0f90$@olddog.co.uk> References: <012701cdeff1$d44a0530$7cde0f90$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:31:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS in Orlando X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 21:31:20 -0000 Thanks AB On 1/11/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Folks, > > It looks like we have a good chance of meeting in Orlando. > > I have submitted a BoF request (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki#) > Note, however, that this is a backstop. It is my intention that we will be > chartered before Orlando and will meet as a normal WG. > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From adrian@olddog.co.uk Tue Jan 15 04:35:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C523521F88CC for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 04:35:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fVH4eOu42oeR for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 04:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1255921F88A6 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 04:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0FCZ6xr021295 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:35:06 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192153.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.153]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0FCYwPA021256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:35:04 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:34:57 -0000 Message-ID: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac3zF+iRdaGr4axeQpu+zmPvOJrMkA== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [i2rs] Revising I-Ds and discussing stuff X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:35:09 -0000 Hi, Authors: Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't be driven purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway. Authors: Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds that were draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mark draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar Everyone: Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for. Thanks, Adrian From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Jan 15 05:06:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537D721F86D4 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:06:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3-CUUlcWtWG for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f48.google.com (mail-vb0-f48.google.com [209.85.212.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2465821F86FD for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id fc21so64597vbb.21 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:06:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=asEDU3Q9dCZDKfRFk3Asnk39/NYDXsNGK7xwFEwa1Io=; b=qO6Y3iV5HqDR5luLjASwBAtSWebicxUBdPWBGi6qZIbTzXmWNP4nSkRq4Iw525CKD/ ag6HZBiMocgI9E5366rPQ9PYU+gwkCj2zM98n9F6yMp7nJTKN+4E9z9HMMC/J6088Kta 5+w2hHgGXbhI2h8T/CS5ZVthBCWXc41WOwGDjhv3MmBEY2mCGi6qnOreRgZECfkl64aX 4DjL2JSSYsIj8dSyz9GUawaCi2nqeKLYnfJQBlxY0rM8tkugzLYGBFCUhk6ELdMkjabO uWbqrmbeNiSiX3GqseuUcrJ+CGpL5LZ+O1f7vC4eDdu3wNIlcj155qNOIhb9MZfMoy2u S2hw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.252.72 with SMTP id zq8mr109128554vec.20.1358255197091; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:06:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> References: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:06:36 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Revising I-Ds and discussing stuff X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:06:43 -0000 Hi Adrian, I did not get replies on the list for my two below input, last year, hope that doesn't continue, (maybe my posts were stupid input !!) , if does then how can we have discussions while authors don't respond even after 3 months, or maybe I should think some have a private list of who to respond to and who not. I will try to continue participating any way, posted on 28 Sep 2012 [irs-discuss] draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework-00 [irs-discuss] draft-ward-irs-framework-00 including addreses sent to: akatlas@juniper.net shares@ndzh.com Best regards AB ++++++++++ On 1/15/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > Authors: > Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't be driven > purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway. > > Authors: > Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds that > were > draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar > Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mark > draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar > > Everyone: > Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for. > > Thanks, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From akatlas@gmail.com Tue Jan 15 05:11:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB6621F8799 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:11:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HmSZwyypAPrH for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com (mail-ie0-f172.google.com [209.85.223.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839C021F8763 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f172.google.com with SMTP id c13so106416ieb.17 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:11:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kN9WrHxqxdAYJ3BmG8FhY9uzsOHWCTmaFP19WAiwtWA=; b=0WujRn1PUL5wKNF20kVGeaLRRn5YIlYlGmchiQkOPyea+ii+G5Ue8SxeTHFYU266V5 L/IaQP15KRCpZXQ13fqFeeBWlcTSysw+xYVirzQ39HaEp+1GVun4aa+UKj9qVjkdNwMM cdbJY+uX/hzh/VMPkDUGb3tJRLIJIjLdztSVXg1T4PTfesaMEYZwOg1nCistdURS04JN I0wW6B1ErcFy91gjaXEzAEaKNzvmowdtEg88PDt5mgwBCeaTa3fErRgs29GUSBmsuF7P vMERcXYDkcFrZEL3G1UTDDV2lFySyBuLyhLbpuUZRZ/gBSVN/5mAQVHdyf18MRyXfobj FNaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.222.201 with SMTP id qo9mr1525214igc.111.1358255471102; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:11:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:11:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Abdussalam Baryun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934112dde89f804d3537e42 Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Revising I-Ds and discussing stuff X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:11:23 -0000 --14dae934112dde89f804d3537e42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 hi Abdussalam, I'm afraid you sent that right when I'd gone out for maternity leave - so I wasn't focused on replying to i2rs email. Sue and I are planning on revising that draft very soon - and I'd be interested in your feedback now. Alia On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Abdussalam Baryun < abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > I did not get replies on the list for my two below input, last year, > hope that doesn't continue, (maybe my posts were stupid input !!) , if > does then how can we have discussions while authors don't respond even > after 3 months, or maybe I should think some have a private list of > who to respond to and who not. I will try to continue participating > any way, > > posted on 28 Sep 2012 > [irs-discuss] draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework-00 > [irs-discuss] draft-ward-irs-framework-00 > > including addreses sent to: > akatlas@juniper.net > shares@ndzh.com > > Best regards > AB > ++++++++++ > On 1/15/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Authors: > > Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't be > driven > > purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway. > > > > Authors: > > Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds that > > were > > draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar > > Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mark > > draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar > > > > Everyone: > > Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for. > > > > Thanks, > > Adrian > > > > _______________________________________________ > > i2rs mailing list > > i2rs@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > --14dae934112dde89f804d3537e42 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi Abdussalam,

I'm afraid you sent that right when I= 'd gone out for maternity leave - so I wasn't focused on
= replying to i2rs email. =A0Sue and I are planning on revising that draft ve= ry soon - and I'd be=A0
interested in your feedback now.

Alia

=
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Abdussalam Bary= un <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Adrian,

I did not get replies on the list for my two below input, last year,
hope that doesn't continue, (maybe my posts were stupid input !!) , if<= br> does then how can we have discussions while authors don't respond even<= br> after 3 months, or maybe I should think some have a private list of
who to respond to and who not. I will try to continue participating
any way,

posted on 28 Sep 2012
[irs-discuss] draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework-00
[irs-discuss] draft-ward-irs-framework-00

including addreses sent to:
akatlas@juniper.net
shares@ndzh.com

Best regards
AB
++++++++++
On 1/15/13, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Authors:
> Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't = be driven
> purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway.
>
> Authors:
> Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds t= hat
> were
> draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar
> Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mar= k
> draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar
>
> Everyone:
> Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for.
>
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

--14dae934112dde89f804d3537e42-- From stbryant@cisco.com Tue Jan 15 05:15:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1E021F86A3 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:15:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8vYefliLGq+n for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-3.cisco.com (ams-iport-3.cisco.com [144.254.224.146]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C65F21F865B for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:15:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1877; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1358255708; x=1359465308; h=message-id:date:from:reply-to:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3vz1CD477Ry3ueQZduTtg6Y6Er7baOS1iq0HqT00oyU=; b=AT/XcVYQvXc+S+i+d1MNrAJ3FpcPbcWV/6xjH8upyWQTmvHGh2J3yWcD p8+xrG96tEriN4exgBBF8XcGgiJankP4l3U9+yEKpiRLzg1L6qk46Q3mV mwYdhJwKHCPYb/2dojWOvOEyupkKfOV//+c4D/JJPGKOndFiENjQ44sQ5 w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AscFAA9V9VCQ/khN/2dsb2JhbABFgy63DYNHFnOCHgEBAQQBAQE1NgoBEAsYCRYPCQMCAQIBFTAGDQEFAgEBiBUMqDyOTIx1hEMDlgyFa4pegnU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,473,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="11092217" Received: from ams-core-4.cisco.com ([144.254.72.77]) by ams-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Jan 2013 13:15:05 +0000 Received: from cisco.com (mrwint.cisco.com [64.103.70.36]) by ams-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r0FDF5RR018532 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:15:05 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cisco.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id r0FDF48h004294; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:15:04 GMT Message-ID: <50F55658.3050607@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:15:04 +0000 From: Stewart Bryant User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Abdussalam Baryun References: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Revising I-Ds and discussing stuff X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: stbryant@cisco.com List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:15:09 -0000 AB I do completely understand what you are saying. I think that you are referring to some list comments. Perhaps you could point to the appropriate URLs in the list archive. - Stewart On 15/01/2013 13:06, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: > Hi Adrian, > > I did not get replies on the list for my two below input, last year, > hope that doesn't continue, (maybe my posts were stupid input !!) , if > does then how can we have discussions while authors don't respond even > after 3 months, or maybe I should think some have a private list of > who to respond to and who not. I will try to continue participating > any way, > > posted on 28 Sep 2012 > [irs-discuss] draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework-00 > [irs-discuss] draft-ward-irs-framework-00 > > including addreses sent to: > akatlas@juniper.net > shares@ndzh.com > > Best regards > AB > ++++++++++ > On 1/15/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Authors: >> Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't be driven >> purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway. >> >> Authors: >> Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds that >> were >> draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar >> Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mark >> draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar >> >> Everyone: >> Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for. >> >> Thanks, >> Adrian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > -- For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Jan 15 06:11:58 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4231621F889C for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NqUeRWWGD0FV for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f50.google.com (mail-vb0-f50.google.com [209.85.212.50]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B2321F87C8 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id ft2so138824vbb.9 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:11:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OusowCuFh6kb/5udaqNCem6PsG+/8Rf+M0gOWshOdtI=; b=xcwQz6GcUq1iQK6hxCB3Z8rSvixFPyWXK45aSNj8wXJOhjLZjFZSkIESLcfpt8NAEd OnY1cYXxrsgRkHkd6nzrU0qHx7xUtqHR51Tl0HlifkjgJzqcJbiRCkS6Jmz3k6G0zna0 rxE4btslruWkw0pR0iGlcluvZWcHbgT/v/hzWdwImnCzPGRVMtSbYfCs2fHpL55dYENy jLnzAwiJJJ9o+Yvq1kMQsAbfcu0K+DzTqs5aqNeX6XbNOp+xoFuyt1VGe/yUWkd37akP JwRGek8hyd47ZX6l6H7HT7detvSy+YDtLl1DBCbPVCccGXfE+H8gSzlQnnVxk9x4zjnb Un1w== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.76.73 with SMTP id i9mr91314431vdw.25.1358259116789; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:11:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:11:56 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Revising I-Ds and discussing stuff X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:11:58 -0000 Hi Alia, Thanks for reply, no problem, I will wait your new draft and will continue with a new input, Best Wishes, Abdussalam Baryun, University of Glamorgan, UK On 1/15/13, Alia Atlas wrote: > hi Abdussalam, > > I'm afraid you sent that right when I'd gone out for maternity leave - so I > wasn't focused on > replying to i2rs email. Sue and I are planning on revising that draft very > soon - and I'd be > interested in your feedback now. > > Alia > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Abdussalam Baryun < > abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Adrian, >> >> I did not get replies on the list for my two below input, last year, >> hope that doesn't continue, (maybe my posts were stupid input !!) , if >> does then how can we have discussions while authors don't respond even >> after 3 months, or maybe I should think some have a private list of >> who to respond to and who not. I will try to continue participating >> any way, >> >> posted on 28 Sep 2012 >> [irs-discuss] draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework-00 >> [irs-discuss] draft-ward-irs-framework-00 >> >> including addreses sent to: >> akatlas@juniper.net >> shares@ndzh.com >> >> Best regards >> AB >> ++++++++++ >> On 1/15/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > Authors: >> > Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't be >> driven >> > purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway. >> > >> > Authors: >> > Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds >> > that >> > were >> > draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar >> > Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mark >> > draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar >> > >> > Everyone: >> > Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Adrian >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > i2rs mailing list >> > i2rs@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Tue Jan 15 06:24:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DD221F85D2 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:24:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DAM9OE8srfRZ for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f54.google.com (mail-vb0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BE721F8634 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id l1so147633vba.41 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:24:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=SrNTJYSM56HRQsEz57lcQVOqeqtObLuxZus95flot18=; b=T9r1GRLVa9I+ym3Ks9SyCW3CAtNn065FWD1Z0cjPdy9R14oe3X9Dmb979g6E0dYPTZ n4zklTOtCMeq128brM7J2siAr2qhB5xS3fov0us/J8tb5qHgeH1sSZq6vMCoQcGB5lzq 5vJS8n6B5uo76PEW1WYtGlMpZjMNeVVXkfPRLI1SJAbMTOUmD7C0vKUJHv1qNuchGrBs gfmKy4evkYixdTFPrkhBPpBFeIGp35p516O0J7juVO81zU1q2JY3VhV2n8fZ7U2Qog9N MG/CNtnlQaZirBG7tsbpU4TOYIv82ehBKwf99Y3aDRiXfTbgmR/+X2WN2p4LP1S13vFk yF8A== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.76.73 with SMTP id i9mr91349151vdw.25.1358259854159; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.145.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:24:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <50F55658.3050607@cisco.com> References: <019e01cdf31c$bfcfe880$3f6fb980$@olddog.co.uk> <50F55658.3050607@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:24:14 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: stbryant@cisco.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Revising I-Ds and discussing stuff X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:24:15 -0000 Hi Stewart, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg00137.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg00097.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg00096.html Just my point is if a participant try to volunteer, on a work of a draft, how can he/she discuss with the author if they don't reply/respond. To be nice I always give three months wait. AB On 1/15/13, Stewart Bryant wrote: > > AB > > I do completely understand what you are saying. I think that > you are referring to some list comments. Perhaps you could > point to the appropriate URLs in the list archive. > > - Stewart > > On 15/01/2013 13:06, Abdussalam Baryun wrote: >> Hi Adrian, >> >> I did not get replies on the list for my two below input, last year, >> hope that doesn't continue, (maybe my posts were stupid input !!) , if >> does then how can we have discussions while authors don't respond even >> after 3 months, or maybe I should think some have a private list of >> who to respond to and who not. I will try to continue participating >> any way, >> >> posted on 28 Sep 2012 >> [irs-discuss] draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework-00 >> [irs-discuss] draft-ward-irs-framework-00 >> >> including addreses sent to: >> akatlas@juniper.net >> shares@ndzh.com >> >> Best regards >> AB >> ++++++++++ >> On 1/15/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Authors: >>> Please be aware of the I-D cut-offs for Orlando. And please don't be >>> driven >>> purely by the cut-off: advance your work anyway. >>> >>> Authors: >>> Please recall that it would be helpful if you could repost your I-Ds >>> that >>> were >>> draft-foo-irs-bar as draft-foo-i2rs-bar >>> Also, then please send the Secretariat a note requesting that they mark >>> draft-foo-irs-bar as replaced by draft-foo-i2rs-bar >>> >>> Everyone: >>> Discuss stuff! That's what the mailing list is for. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Adrian >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> i2rs mailing list >>> i2rs@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > > > -- > For corporate legal information go to: > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html > > From adrian@olddog.co.uk Wed Jan 16 08:22:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964C721F8B19 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:22:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3WyKQsNLOocr for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (asmtp4.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819F821F8B1A for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp4.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0GGM6cn027728 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:22:06 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192153.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.153]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp4.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0GGLqTH027661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:22:03 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: References: <20130115164317.19158.38315.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20130115164317.19158.38315.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:21:52 -0000 Message-ID: <00ac01cdf405$9eedf0a0$dcc9d1e0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQD0yAf0rC+0X2BpFjekKSQhiMk8EZn+dX1w Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [i2rs] FW: WG Review: Interface to the Routing System (i2rs) X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:22:08 -0000 FYI > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-announce- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of The IESG > Sent: 15 January 2013 16:43 > To: IETF-Announce > Subject: WG Review: Interface to the Routing System (i2rs) > > A new IETF working group has been proposed in the Routing Area. The IESG > has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was > submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send > your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg at ietf.org) by 2013-01-22. > > Interface to the Routing System (i2rs) > ------------------------------------------------ > Current Status: Proposed Working Group > > Assigned Area Director: > Adrian Farrel > > Mailing list > Address: i2rs@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > Archive: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/maillist.html > > Charter of Working Group: > > Working Group Name: > Interfaces to the Routing System (I2RS) > > IETF Area: > Routing Area > > Chair(s): > TBD > Routing Area Director(s): > Adrian Farrel > Routing Area Advisor: > Adrian Farrel > Operations Area Advisor: > TBD > > Mailing Lists: > General Discussion: i2rs@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > Archive: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/maillist.html > > Description of Working Group: > > In an IP routed network, the routing system: > > - Distributes topology and other state (network metadata) > - Uses this network metadata to determine the best path to each given > reachable destination attached to the network > - Communicates these decisions to the forwarding plane of each > forwarding device in the network. > > That is, the routing system is the collection of entities, protocols > and processes that collectively build the forwarding tables that are > exported into the entities that constitute the network's fowarding > plane. > > While processes participating in the routing system are often colocated > with the local forwarding elements, this isn't a necessary condition. > Thus, the routing system includes control plane protocols that compute > routes and paths for data packets, wherever the processes implementing > those protocols may be running. > > I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing > system through a collection of protocol-based control or management > interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational > parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by > notification) from the routing system while retaining data consistency > and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, and among > multiple interactions with the routing system. The I2RS interfaces will > co-exist with existing configuration and management systems and > interfaces. > > It is envisioned that users of the I2RS interfaces will be management > applications, network controllers, and user applications that make > specific demands on the network. > > The I2RS working group works to develop a high-level framework and > architecture that describes the basic building-blocks necessary to > enable the specific use cases, and that will lead to an understanding > of the abstract informational models and requirements for > encodings and protocols for the I2RS interfaces. Small and well-scoped > use cases are critical to constrain the scope of the work and achieve > sufficient focus for the working group to deliver successful outcomes. > Initial work within the working group will be limited to a single > administrative domain. > > The working group is chartered to work on the following items: > > - High-level architecture and framework for I2RS including > considerations of policy and security. > > - Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS as follows: > o Interactions with the Routing Information Base (RIB). Allowing > read and write access to the RIB, but no direct access to the > Forwarding Information Base (FIB). > o Control and analysis of the operation of the Border gateway > Protocol (BGP) including the setting and activation of policies > related to the protocol. > o Control, optimization, and choice of traffic exit points from > networks based on more information than provided by the dynamic > control plane. > o Distributed reaction to network-based attacks through quickly > modification of the control plane behavior to reroute traffic for > one destination while leaving a standard mechanisms (filters, > metrics, and policy) in place for other routes. > o Service layer routing to improve on existing hub-and-spoke > traffic. > o The ability to extract information about topology from the > network. Injection and creation of topology will not be considered > as an initial work item. > > Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only through > rechartering. > > - Abstract information models consistent with the use cases. > > - Requirements for I2RS protocols and encoding languages. > > - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding > languages against the requirements. > > The working group is not currently chartered to develop protocols, > encoding languages, or data models. The objective of this work effort > is to arrive at common standards for these items, but these items are > dependent on the progress of the topics listed above. Work for these > items will be conducted in this working group only after a re-charter, > and/or may be carried out in another working group with specific > responsibility for the protocol or encoding language. > > Goals and Milestones: > > Jul 2013: Request publication of an Informational document defining the > problem statement > Jul 2013: Request publication of an Informational document defining the > highlevel architecture and framework > Aug 2013: Request publication of Informational documents describing use > cases > Sep 2013: Request publication of an Informational document defining the > protocol requirements > Sep 2013: Request publication of an Informational document defining > encoding language requirements > Nov 2013: Request publication of Standards Track documents specifying > information models > Nov 2013: Request publication of an Informational document providing an > analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding > languages against the requirements > Dec 2013: Consider re-chartering > From ietfc@btconnect.com Fri Jan 18 02:20:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B66321F8447 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:20:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.089, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uIzgoxlnMC0d for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from co9outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (co9ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [207.46.163.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F50521F86BB for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail72-co9-R.bigfish.com (10.236.132.231) by CO9EHSOBE019.bigfish.com (10.236.130.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:21 +0000 Received: from mail72-co9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail72-co9-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CC31402C2; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.253.85; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:DB3PRD0710HT002.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -18 X-BigFish: PS-18(zz9371I542Izz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL17326ah8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839h947hd24hf0ah1177h1179h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah139eh13b6h1441h1504h1537h162dh1631h1758h17f1h184fh1898h304l1155h) Received: from mail72-co9 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail72-co9 (MessageSwitch) id 13585044191620_3911; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO9EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (unknown [10.236.132.232]) by mail72-co9.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8323420059; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3PRD0710HT002.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.253.85) by CO9EHSMHS012.bigfish.com (10.236.130.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:18 +0000 Received: from DBXPRD0210HT001.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (157.56.253.181) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.255.75.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.257.4; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:18 +0000 Message-ID: <01cb01cdf565$0fb90c60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: , References: <018801cdeeb5$a4ee3be0$eecab3a0$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:17:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.253.181] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Subject: Re: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:20:22 -0000 Looking at the 15th January version of this, I think it would benefit from the sort of tweaking an RFC Editor might provide! 'determine the best path' path(s) would be better in this day and age /network's fowarding/network's forwarding / 'protocols that compute routes and paths' I see protocols exchanging data - computing seems a little odd, rather, for me, processes compute /Border gateway/Border Gateway/ 'through quickly modification' speedy? or rapid? ' a standard mechanisms ' mechanism? Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 10:06 PM Subject: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Fri Jan 18 03:35:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C7121F8793 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.563 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cx9bS9-ok+dP for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A8921F8786 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0IBZ1ge016005; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:35:01 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192047.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.47]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0IBYuFe015991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:34:59 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'t.petch'" , References: <018801cdeeb5$a4ee3be0$eecab3a0$@olddog.co.uk> <01cb01cdf565$0fb90c60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: <01cb01cdf565$0fb90c60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:34:56 -0000 Message-ID: <012701cdf56f$d99f4080$8cddc180$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQK+dxWw/oR3lhtKxzyeoCRZMuKRnwHNQtZXll+GzpA= Content-Language: en-gb Subject: Re: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:35:05 -0000 Hi Tom, > Looking at the 15th January version of this, I think it would benefit > from the sort of tweaking an RFC Editor might provide! Congratulations! You get the job :-) > 'determine the best path' path(s) would be better in this day and age This is the only one I disagree with. I hate the parenthetical 's' when using the plural to mean one or more is perfectly fine English. So I s/path/paths/ All other points agreed and changes made. Thanks, Adrian > /network's fowarding/network's forwarding / > > 'protocols that compute routes and paths' I see protocols exchanging > data - computing seems a little odd, rather, for me, processes compute > > /Border gateway/Border Gateway/ > > 'through quickly modification' speedy? or rapid? > > ' a standard mechanisms ' mechanism? > > Tom Petch > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Farrel" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 10:06 PM > Subject: [i2rs] Draft Charter Updates > > > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf- From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 13:44:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F7421F85D9 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:44:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KlMGSlohNN4t for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f46.google.com (mail-la0-f46.google.com [209.85.215.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D66021F8475 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f46.google.com with SMTP id fq12so6905297lab.19 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:44:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=/EqaoGUA6hxdNN3ZqlvjC12HaX5SGRskAH6OnEn1Sg4=; b=W3zqhPYxba4fCLhtKig8utZ0JxAVgR/zG+4ICdHnuwAHmzAWc/PbAOE4hike7Z5Hsb NhxplZKHkqZAr5VWUM/ov041ugny7z4TBmB9b5RessMUYbvTjmL5yIVnCgIw+lIyotAA nyR9/86SmLwKNFYjabwhnSjikzJzmHGB612QkBE8xJAGjVmWehAo2Rn0L6LSqbQ8En7r IL5sqS0aRetnGJEh60tfZmC1XuiKJyITKjfMLmWe1ggjezebv1WLWq78cxzuX4bjfYQn uQJ2o987pBtpUGuSHtfwqEJLeDUWsYXdt1S1mfyIrRNqXBcPDWekck/OB1FM1w6+sC1D 4oAQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.46.17 with SMTP id r17mr2738096lam.47.1358977458475; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.49.3 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:44:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:44:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5524106ab91f304d3fb9841 Subject: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 21:44:20 -0000 --bcaec5524106ab91f304d3fb9841 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As part of the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce information models. I know there's lots of interest in this and it would be great to agree on a format that we'd like to see the information models in. >From my perspective (learning all the time), an information model is to describe the information and purpose of the data needed in the model, without all the details that make the reasoning and structure hard to understand (and also take lots of time to develop). Of course, there's Wikipedia's definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model) and various RFCs that include information models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). Frequently, the information model can just be in English. Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if we can discuss and agree on a format to try for the information models. What I'd suggest is basically a data-tree (similar to the TreeOutput from pyang - seen at http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per data item. The required information would be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a reference (to where else the concept is defined). What do you all think? Any better/different ideas? Alia --bcaec5524106ab91f304d3fb9841 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As part of =A0the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce infor= mation models. =A0I know there's
lots of interest in this and it wo= uld be great to agree on a format that we'd like to see the information= models
in.

From my perspective (learning all the tim= e), an information model is to describe the information and purpose
of the data needed in the model, without all the details that make the r= easoning and structure hard to understand
(and also take lots of time to develop). =A0Of course, there's Wik= ipedia's definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model)
and = various RFCs that include information models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). =A0Freq= uently, the information model
can just be in English.

Based on some side co= nversations, I'd like to see if we can discuss and agree on a format to= try for the information
models. =A0What I'd suggest is basic= ally a data-tree (similar to the TreeOutput from pyang - seen at=A0
http://code= .google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per data item= . =A0The required information would=A0
be a description, a type, = and, if appropriate, a reference (to where else the concept is defined).

What do you all think? =A0Any better/different ideas?

Alia
--bcaec5524106ab91f304d3fb9841-- From alex@cisco.com Wed Jan 23 14:00:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E606821F84B2 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:00:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JI6mp6SeyWtx for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C7E921F84E4 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:00:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9034; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1358978421; x=1360188021; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=CMWzqeFvCGWZgr4vWVk8fWpknLytoWoI3qu7F7YIOJ8=; b=WF9BGt09dnPpdadmHNwCLMt2qKCuidGuspP79jh/bdPKd9OTpZ25jvv8 vPlV821BFgKkip6f7+oYVLTZP67VlzRUX1CIwDOPqwhAjRsdLxZFoLTmk iQGXq/6n5rimgcQXJ6NqdITRJzo6PHBn5gDj8JL07YHTk+dBxNh1xgCfE M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0FAERdAFGtJXG+/2dsb2JhbABEgkiyWQGJHhZzgh4BAQEELUAcAgEIDgMEAQELHQcyFAkIAgQBEggBiBEMvXiQUmEDlyiPLYJ1giQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,523,1355097600"; d="scan'208,217";a="167061631" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2013 22:00:20 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com [173.36.12.82]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r0NM0KTV028567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:00:20 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x05.cisco.com ([169.254.15.234]) by xhc-aln-x08.cisco.com ([173.36.12.82]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:00:20 -0600 From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" To: Alia Atlas , "i2rs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [i2rs] format for information models Thread-Index: AQHN+bLR5XG5TEWR4UeXSc0LBXDMB5hXcy8w Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:00:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.154.200.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B57183A297Dxmbrcdx05ciscoc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:00:23 -0000 --_000_DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B57183A297Dxmbrcdx05ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For an overview of information and data models (and the distinction between= them), there is also RFC 3444 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3444.txt Just as a comment, I like the pyang-ish data tree as a summary of the model= structure as well. A short-hand for some of the "cornerstones" of the mode= l, then more specifics can be found in the more formal definition. I would= think what is currently there should provide more or lesswhat is needed, h= ence I'd hope the group would be able to just reuse that (building any exte= nsions on top if and when needed, but not introducing a new variation). Kind regards --- Alex From: i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ali= a Atlas Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:44 PM To: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: [i2rs] format for information models As part of the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce informa= tion models. I know there's lots of interest in this and it would be great to agree on a format that we= 'd like to see the information models in. >From my perspective (learning all the time), an information model is to des= cribe the information and purpose of the data needed in the model, without all the details that make the reas= oning and structure hard to understand (and also take lots of time to develop). Of course, there's Wikipedia's de= finition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model) and various RFCs that include information models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). Fr= equently, the information model can just be in English. Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if we can discuss and agr= ee on a format to try for the information models. What I'd suggest is basically a data-tree (similar to the TreeOutp= ut from pyang - seen at http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per da= ta item. The required information would be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a reference (to where else t= he concept is defined). What do you all think? Any better/different ideas? Alia --_000_DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B57183A297Dxmbrcdx05ciscoc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For an overview of inform= ation and data models (and the distinction between them), there is also RFC= 3444 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc= 3444.txt

 <= /p>

Just as a comment, I like= the pyang-ish data tree as a summary of the model structure as well. A sho= rt-hand for some of the “cornerstones” of the model, then more specifics can be found in the more formal definition.  I would t= hink what is currently there should provide more or lesswhat is needed, hen= ce I’d hope the group would be able to just reuse that (building any = extensions on top if and when needed, but not introducing a new variation). 

 <= /p>

Kind regards

--- Alex

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: i2rs-bou= nces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:44 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: [i2rs] format for information models

 

As part of  the proposed i2rs charter, the WG w= ould need to produce information models.  I know there's

lots of interest in this and it would be great to ag= ree on a format that we'd like to see the information models

in.

 

From my perspective (learning all the time), an info= rmation model is to describe the information and purpose

of the data needed in the model, without all the det= ails that make the reasoning and structure hard to understand

(and also take lots of time to develop).  Of co= urse, there's Wikipedia's definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model)

and various RFCs that include information models (RF= C 5102, 3585, etc).  Frequently, the information model

can just be in English.

 

Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if= we can discuss and agree on a format to try for the information=

models.  What I'd suggest is basically a data-t= ree (similar to the TreeOutput from pyang - seen at 

http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then informa= tion per data item.  The required information would 

be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a ref= erence (to where else the concept is defined).

 

What do you all think?  Any better/different id= eas?

 

Alia

--_000_DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B57183A297Dxmbrcdx05ciscoc_-- From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 14:04:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1B921F8558 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:04:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n2F-58NJeueR for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f170.google.com (mail-lb0-f170.google.com [209.85.217.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5940221F8555 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id ge1so2927642lbb.29 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:04:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=YOTUls2CDSljJHUXIGmF6zKbdRxEuLERGCHz7odfmN8=; b=vMJZm1LcwgQdbcn5V6QuSPlXzLCxEWE4Mmc+lpHlHi0yPzJENCYEWB8uQvEfU/RhSx cdU8I1+TF+VHVf4FazLyy+NRGMkDMOkdiYdUxFjRj/HhEbqBw2ZSzOwTuCosCF2W+JJ8 2+DMowOW6RlE3ewFRG08rN9MpdhFxGYrOUzT42DCVCY67dQNgydvuqc7F6CUriNeeApN V+qFktT/MfbriWpCWxllL2AgJHa/mfVcfg2MCHxiKuM7Ha9n8vbfaLEJV6Q3+lwmZs3A Q59oxOnQShRTbAkvuy+DbfCCrO2becaeK17th4DuT9pQB9JTUCfUOsPKm/7FTkIXjoQk A1sg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.102.177 with SMTP id fp17mr2859892lab.0.1358978679250; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.49.3 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:04:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:04:39 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0408d69b6f1fee04d3fbe1c7 Subject: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:04:41 -0000 --f46d0408d69b6f1fee04d3fbe1c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases requiring multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. This is a rather different requirement, in terms of embedding the policy-enforcement into the routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. In those cases, the latest writing wins and installs its state. For i2rs, an idea proposed (in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework) is that different i2rs clients are decided between based upon precedence. Frequently, different services are "known" to not collide, based upon human-assigned policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic types, etc. To get things started with a use-case, consider that there are two different services that are using i2rs. a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: a service that installs policy-based routing filters to route specific traffic on predetermined paths. b) DDoS Detection: a service that detects traffic of interest and installs policy-based routing filters to route the suspicious traffic to an analysis box. In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to override the first service's installed filters when necessary. Any opinions? Thanks, Alia --f46d0408d69b6f1fee04d3fbe1c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases requir= ing
multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. = =A0This is a rather
different requirement, in terms of embedding = the policy-enforcement into the=A0
routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. =A0I= n those cases,
the latest writing wins and installs its state. = =A0For i2rs, an idea proposed (in
are decided between based upon precedence.

Fr= equently, different services are "known" to not collide, based up= on human-assigned
policy - such as different prefixes for differe= nt traffic types, etc.

To get things started with a use-case, consider that th= ere are two different services
that are using i2rs.
=A0= =A0 a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: =A0a service that installs policy-bas= ed routing filters to
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 route specific traffic on predetermined paths.
=A0 =A0 b) DDoS Detection: =A0a service that detects traffic of interest= and installs policy-based
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0routing filters to rout= e the suspicious traffic to an analysis box.
In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to ove= rride the first service's
installed filters when necessary.

Any opinions?

Thanks,
Alia
--f46d0408d69b6f1fee04d3fbe1c7-- From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 14:09:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62FF021F8598 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:09:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RHjurG3-ez4Q for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com [209.85.217.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E533C21F858C for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id q12so1446318lbc.25 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:09:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mu9gOAtu28PcURknxFaPNrCwsHqCzjmMRe7fSvo7EGA=; b=fK/XknnYw1S2jwr4xwGkUYCWdvUjRVl5hiaa6nlXTIQOrA0Q/VYmKKxDBLYuZOgcw3 KFcMYbf0ky5FYI8hQsh7k/nyYRz/t81BZ4nLtn4NDQoQdpZJ7wHDCrl+RS3D9fAHUx/+ YrygpvX9YBE6oXDR6k1lmxAsV+T3k4XWzUmCbpt2r/zsZNIENbMDxJhtrNzo+DxT83xu 8nlxyQbv+mwKDkTvO8mHjEyU93pdjYFYdYlN5KE7x+egocW2t/RI5cKR5aYX+82+iX/0 xGjT4w98OQfSV7hmvIOBdCF7wcZnqed2SceNIbnwu+1OwkyqIJ6GRSlp1HCCResYF3xd h5uw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.84.168 with SMTP id a8mr1329888lbz.75.1358978984619; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.49.3 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:09:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:09:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04016cada2b15104d3fbf326 Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 22:09:47 -0000 --f46d04016cada2b15104d3fbf326 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, Thanks for the pointer to RFC3444; I'd read it about 6 months ago to clarify in my own mind the difference between an information model and a data model. I think it's very useful. On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Alexander Clemm (alex) wro= te: > For an overview of information and data models (and the distinction > between them), there is also RFC 3444 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3444.txt > **** > > ** ** > > Just as a comment, I like the pyang-ish data tree as a summary of the > model structure as well. A short-hand for some of the =93cornerstones=94 = of the > model, then more specifics can be found in the more formal definition. I > would think what is currently there should provide more or lesswhat is > needed, hence I=92d hope the group would be able to just reuse that (buil= ding > any extensions on top if and when needed, but not introducing a new > variation). > Agreed - I'd prefer to avoid a variation. Alia > > Kind regards**** > > --- Alex**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Alia Atlas > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:44 PM > *To:* i2rs@ietf.org > *Subject:* [i2rs] format for information models**** > > ** ** > > As part of the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce > information models. I know there's**** > > lots of interest in this and it would be great to agree on a format that > we'd like to see the information models**** > > in.**** > > ** ** > > From my perspective (learning all the time), an information model is to > describe the information and purpose**** > > of the data needed in the model, without all the details that make the > reasoning and structure hard to understand**** > > (and also take lots of time to develop). Of course, there's Wikipedia's > definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model)**** > > and various RFCs that include information models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). > Frequently, the information model**** > > can just be in English.**** > > ** ** > > Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if we can discuss and > agree on a format to try for the information**** > > models. What I'd suggest is basically a data-tree (similar to the > TreeOutput from pyang - seen at **** > > http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per > data item. The required information would **** > > be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a reference (to where else > the concept is defined).**** > > ** ** > > What do you all think? Any better/different ideas?**** > > ** ** > > Alia**** > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > --f46d04016cada2b15104d3fbf326 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex,

Thanks for the pointer to RFC3444; I'd read it= about 6 months ago to clarify in my own mind the difference between an inf= ormation model and a data model. =A0I think it's very useful.

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Alexander Clemm (alex) &= lt;alex@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

For an overview of inform= ation and data models (and the distinction between them), there is also RFC= 3444 http://ww= w.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3444.txt

=A0<= /p>

Just as a comment, I like= the pyang-ish data tree as a summary of the model structure as well. A sho= rt-hand for some of the =93cornerstones=94 of the model, then more specifics can be found in the more formal definition.=A0 I would thin= k what is currently there should provide more or lesswhat is needed, hence = I=92d hope the group would be able to just reuse that (building any extensi= ons on top if and when needed, but not introducing a new variation).=A0

<= br>
Agreed - I'd prefer to avoid a variation.
=A0
Alia

=A0

Kind regards

--- Alex

=A0<= /p>

=A0<= /p>

From: i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:44 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org=
Subject: [i2rs] format for information models

=A0

As part of =A0the proposed i2rs charter, the WG woul= d need to produce information models. =A0I know there's

lots of interest in this and it would be great to ag= ree on a format that we'd like to see the information models<= /u>

in.

=A0

From my perspective (learning all the time), an info= rmation model is to describe the information and purpose

of the data needed in the model, without all the det= ails that make the reasoning and structure hard to understand=

(and also take lots of time to develop). =A0Of cours= e, there's Wikipedia's definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I= nformation_model)

and various RFCs that include information models (RF= C 5102, 3585, etc). =A0Frequently, the information model

can just be in English.

=A0

Based on some side conversations, I'd like to se= e if we can discuss and agree on a format to try for the information=

models. =A0What I'd suggest is basically a data-= tree (similar to the TreeOutput from pyang - seen at=A0

http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput= ) and then information per data item. =A0The required information would=A0<= u>

be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a ref= erence (to where else the concept is defined).

=A0

What do you all think? =A0Any better/different ideas= ?

=A0

Alia


_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


--f46d04016cada2b15104d3fbf326-- From jclarke@cisco.com Wed Jan 23 15:37:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5F821F84F5 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:37:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ez99PWMRjGMy for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-tac-rtp.cisco.com (av-tac-rtp.cisco.com [64.102.19.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1582C21F84E0 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:37:30 -0800 (PST) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from rooster.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-rtp.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0NNbTY9008429; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-vpn1-595.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-595.cisco.com [10.82.226.83]) by rooster.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0NNbQlT012255; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:37:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:37:26 -0500 From: Joe Marcus Clarke Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alia Atlas References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 23:37:32 -0000 On 1/23/13 5:04 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases requiring > multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. This > is a rather > different requirement, in terms of embedding the policy-enforcement into > the > routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. In > those cases, > the latest writing wins and installs its state. For i2rs, an idea > proposed (in > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework) is that > different i2rs clients > are decided between based upon precedence. > > Frequently, different services are "known" to not collide, based upon > human-assigned > policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic types, etc. > > To get things started with a use-case, consider that there are two > different services > that are using i2rs. > a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: a service that installs > policy-based routing filters to > route specific traffic on predetermined paths. > b) DDoS Detection: a service that detects traffic of interest and > installs policy-based > routing filters to route the suspicious traffic to an analysis box. > In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to > override the first service's > installed filters when necessary. > > Any opinions? More like a thought. In the use case you describe, couldn't both coexist? Meaning you could simply have two PBR "actions," one that routes the traffic and the other that copies the interesting traffic to the DDoS sniffer. So the precedence may be the same and both can coexist. Now, if the DDoS service finds a problem in the copied traffic, it can install an overlapping policy that would preempt the original. As to the flow in the draft, if the new, higher-precedence service is transient and the store-if-not-best bit is set, then the previous state will be restored (if it has the next best precedence). Shouldn't the commissioner be notified again that its state is active again? Joe -- Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, | | SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP ||||| ||||| Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:.. Phone: +1 (919) 392-2867 c i s c o S y s t e m s Email: jclarke@cisco.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:08:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C907421F84D0 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:08:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ByjL0YjwEgG for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f180.google.com (mail-lb0-f180.google.com [209.85.217.180]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A7921F84D8 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id q12so1514382lbc.25 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:08:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=AXIsdfSce1IS22eBPifnQS9Q6KVXpy0++JgAdpD1c94=; b=NuTNSctMo6a+efjYMzEhrqvHydIBrAkmZB7lQZkBX+aVHOxUArdBIC9yfiCXhERLfJ 6FyOTcPMNF0fRZsCHitTM/Wq9rXY+bolD9yE61erUVa4nDl8yLJfKJfkWzv0uVlydSJc ITFCPP8w9nKcP44vx/Hqfc2H2cYm9kHaIKd7R8aYrRo3XJ/OMFvkl3lL4WtYiMNHfzFV baWww1wfXH+ppYu2V22gjblwb0G8O4tzav8kwG4fWWrAcV62YF61aIdELPgRdW4Q9b5j yJVYTo0lb4Dpz/8U+JQtKPYYL9od4gzl4TjJ/USQWbzhyVwg70HudIwOSZt5ewMCByJf CWEQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.16.42 with SMTP id c10mr5424lbd.94.1358986098052; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.49.3 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:08:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> References: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:08:17 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Joe Marcus Clarke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401fbbba10deb04d3fd9bcc Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:08:36 -0000 --f46d0401fbbba10deb04d3fd9bcc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joe Marcus Clarke wrote: > On 1/23/13 5:04 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases > requiring > > multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. This > > is a rather > > different requirement, in terms of embedding the policy-enforcement into > > the > > routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. In > > those cases, > > the latest writing wins and installs its state. For i2rs, an idea > > proposed (in > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework) is that > > different i2rs clients > > are decided between based upon precedence. > > > > Frequently, different services are "known" to not collide, based upon > > human-assigned > > policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic types, etc. > > > > To get things started with a use-case, consider that there are two > > different services > > that are using i2rs. > > a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: a service that installs > > policy-based routing filters to > > route specific traffic on predetermined paths. > > b) DDoS Detection: a service that detects traffic of interest and > > installs policy-based > > routing filters to route the suspicious traffic to an analysis > box. > > In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to > > override the first service's > > installed filters when necessary. > > > > Any opinions? > > More like a thought. In the use case you describe, couldn't both > coexist? Meaning you could simply have two PBR "actions," one that > routes the traffic and the other that copies the interesting traffic to > the DDoS sniffer. So the precedence may be the same and both can > coexist. Now, if the DDoS service finds a problem in the copied > traffic, it can install an overlapping policy that would preempt the > original. > Exactly - both could exist unless the DDoS service finds a problem with a flow being routed by the first service. > As to the flow in the draft, if the new, higher-precedence service is > transient and the store-if-not-best bit is set, then the previous state > will be restored (if it has the next best precedence). Shouldn't the > commissioner be notified again that its state is active again? > Absolutely - I'll double-check to be sure that's in there when we revise the draft. Regards, Alia > > Joe > > -- > Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, | | > SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP ||||| ||||| > Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:.. > Phone: +1 (919) 392-2867 c i s c o S y s t e m s > Email: jclarke@cisco.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --f46d0401fbbba10deb04d3fd9bcc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joe Mar= cus Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com> wrote:
On 1/23/13 5:04 PM, Alia Atlas wrot= e:
> I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases r= equiring
> multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. =A0= This
> is a rather
> different requirement, in terms of embedding the policy-enforcement in= to
> the
> routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. =A0I= n
> those cases,
> the latest writing wins and installs its state. =A0For i2rs, an idea > proposed (in
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs-policy-frame= work) is that
> different i2rs clients
> are decided between based upon precedence.
>
> Frequently, different services are "known" to not collide, b= ased upon
> human-assigned
> policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic types, etc.<= br> >
> To get things started with a use-case, consider that there are two
> different services
> that are using i2rs.
> =A0 =A0 a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: =A0a service that installs > policy-based routing filters to
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 route specific traffic on predetermined paths.
> =A0 =A0 b) DDoS Detection: =A0a service that detects traffic of intere= st and
> installs policy-based
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0routing filters to route the suspicious traffic to an a= nalysis box.
> In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to
> override the first service's
> installed filters when necessary.
>
> Any opinions?

More like a thought. =A0In the use case you describe, couldn= 9;t both
coexist? =A0Meaning you could simply have two PBR "actions," one = that
routes the traffic and the other that copies the interesting traffic to
the DDoS sniffer. =A0So the precedence may be the same and both can
coexist. =A0Now, if the DDoS service finds a problem in the copied
traffic, it can install an overlapping policy that would preempt the
original.

Exactly - both could exist un= less the DDoS service finds a problem with
a flow being routed by= the first service.
=A0
As to the flow in the draft, if the new, higher-precedence service is
transient and the store-if-not-best bit is set, then the previous state
will be restored (if it has the next best precedence). =A0Shouldn't the=
commissioner be notified again that its state is active again?

Absolutely - I'll double-check to be sure that&= #39;s in there when we revise
the draft.

Regards,
Alia
=A0

Joe

--
Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0||||| =A0 =A0 =A0|||||
Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:..
Phone: += 1 (919) 392-2867 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 c i s c o =A0S y s t e m s
Email: jclarke@cisco.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -

--f46d0401fbbba10deb04d3fd9bcc-- From jclarke@cisco.com Wed Jan 23 16:17:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1975F21F8700 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:17:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RMnnasQeJEI9 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-tac-rtp.cisco.com (av-tac-rtp.cisco.com [64.102.19.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587A321F876E for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:16:59 -0800 (PST) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from rooster.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-rtp.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0O0Gohc012994; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-vpn1-595.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-595.cisco.com [10.82.226.83]) by rooster.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0O0Go4t022787; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:16:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <51007D71.2010505@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:16:49 -0500 From: Joe Marcus Clarke Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alia Atlas References: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:17:00 -0000 On 1/23/13 7:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joe Marcus Clarke > wrote: > > On 1/23/13 5:04 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases > requiring > > multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. > This > > is a rather > > different requirement, in terms of embedding the > policy-enforcement into > > the > > routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. In > > those cases, > > the latest writing wins and installs its state. For i2rs, an idea > > proposed (in > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework) is that > > different i2rs clients > > are decided between based upon precedence. > > > > Frequently, different services are "known" to not collide, based upon > > human-assigned > > policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic types, etc. > > > > To get things started with a use-case, consider that there are two > > different services > > that are using i2rs. > > a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: a service that installs > > policy-based routing filters to > > route specific traffic on predetermined paths. > > b) DDoS Detection: a service that detects traffic of interest and > > installs policy-based > > routing filters to route the suspicious traffic to an > analysis box. > > In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to > > override the first service's > > installed filters when necessary. > > > > Any opinions? > > More like a thought. In the use case you describe, couldn't both > coexist? Meaning you could simply have two PBR "actions," one that > routes the traffic and the other that copies the interesting traffic to > the DDoS sniffer. So the precedence may be the same and both can > coexist. Now, if the DDoS service finds a problem in the copied > traffic, it can install an overlapping policy that would preempt the > original. > > > Exactly - both could exist unless the DDoS service finds a problem with > a flow being routed by the first service. That coexist wasn't clear (at least to me) in the draft or your description here. But maybe this wouldn't be considered overlap in the precedence sense? > > > As to the flow in the draft, if the new, higher-precedence service is > transient and the store-if-not-best bit is set, then the previous state > will be restored (if it has the next best precedence). Shouldn't the > commissioner be notified again that its state is active again? > > > Absolutely - I'll double-check to be sure that's in there when we revise > the draft. Thanks. Joe -- Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, | | SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP ||||| ||||| Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:.. Phone: +1 (919) 392-2867 c i s c o S y s t e m s Email: jclarke@cisco.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:20:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5C121F84F5 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:20:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySM1A3UsotIf for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f44.google.com (mail-la0-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B83621F8497 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f44.google.com with SMTP id eb20so8414424lab.17 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:19:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=8BbH3uYMA80z05FWr/rvdibdMtToRlbL5ntClNDQofc=; b=twdewxyQIScuxNLZianXTeJDOK3h4kz+BTs0eR0DlCBxytwrsSkK/hqKpGQ8pWrm6t ofXmxL4pWlmJyQ4EC/BnxlGYK7cpdY7fJvtzGFWq5rclCzKzaG5HcQuQ15F2RXK8Oyzg lhG2in+PdOS8ltOQ+gNAYAdUO95mVnDg51YvTZwMsFLX4WhD4dGdwei3O9wJzUrFwJFp +62O0zHCFJfULFd/wcN3z3HLnRZ79UoRolk7yTbF6B50h0y3V4v0ncSqgp7A+iVcw3Cr 8OglxchTqXqwRW4m9wMqQ/DNbWWY3a+hYyn7kkAV8iu1uEyrUkfwhl8qsDi256b/ORwK 4NCA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.43.161 with SMTP id x1mr18095lbl.89.1358986797900; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.49.3 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:19:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <51007D71.2010505@cisco.com> References: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> <51007D71.2010505@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:19:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Joe Marcus Clarke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe2b2a57e38004d3fdc518 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:20:11 -0000 --e0cb4efe2b2a57e38004d3fdc518 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Joe Marcus Clarke wrote: > On 1/23/13 7:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joe Marcus Clarke > > wrote: > > > > On 1/23/13 5:04 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > > I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on the use-cases > > requiring > > > multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as meaning. > > This > > > is a rather > > > different requirement, in terms of embedding the > > policy-enforcement into > > > the > > > routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetConf/SNMP. > In > > > those cases, > > > the latest writing wins and installs its state. For i2rs, an idea > > > proposed (in > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs-policy-framework) is > that > > > different i2rs clients > > > are decided between based upon precedence. > > > > > > Frequently, different services are "known" to not collide, based > upon > > > human-assigned > > > policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic types, > etc. > > > > > > To get things started with a use-case, consider that there are two > > > different services > > > that are using i2rs. > > > a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: a service that installs > > > policy-based routing filters to > > > route specific traffic on predetermined paths. > > > b) DDoS Detection: a service that detects traffic of interest > and > > > installs policy-based > > > routing filters to route the suspicious traffic to an > > analysis box. > > > In this case, the second service could have a higher precedence to > > > override the first service's > > > installed filters when necessary. > > > > > > Any opinions? > > > > More like a thought. In the use case you describe, couldn't both > > coexist? Meaning you could simply have two PBR "actions," one that > > routes the traffic and the other that copies the interesting traffic > to > > the DDoS sniffer. So the precedence may be the same and both can > > coexist. Now, if the DDoS service finds a problem in the copied > > traffic, it can install an overlapping policy that would preempt the > > original. > > > > > > Exactly - both could exist unless the DDoS service finds a problem with > > a flow being routed by the first service. > > That coexist wasn't clear (at least to me) in the draft or your > description here. But maybe this wouldn't be considered overlap in the > precedence sense? > > Yes, I wasn't considering it overlap - just like two routes in the RIB aren't overlapping if they're not the same prefix. > > > > > > As to the flow in the draft, if the new, higher-precedence service is > > transient and the store-if-not-best bit is set, then the previous > state > > will be restored (if it has the next best precedence). Shouldn't the > > commissioner be notified again that its state is active again? > > > > > > Absolutely - I'll double-check to be sure that's in there when we revise > > the draft. > > Thanks. > > Joe > > -- > Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, | | > SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP ||||| ||||| > Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:.. > Phone: +1 (919) 392-2867 c i s c o S y s t e m s > Email: jclarke@cisco.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --e0cb4efe2b2a57e38004d3fdc518 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Joe Mar= cus Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com> wrote:
On 1/23/13 7:08 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joe Marcus Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com
> <mailto:jclarke@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 On 1/23/13 5:04 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> =A0 =A0 > I'd be interested in hearing others perspective on th= e use-cases
> =A0 =A0 requiring
> =A0 =A0 > multi-headed control and what you see this requirement as= meaning.
> =A0 =A0 =A0This
> =A0 =A0 > is a rather
> =A0 =A0 > different requirement, in terms of embedding the
> =A0 =A0 policy-enforcement into
> =A0 =A0 > the
> =A0 =A0 > routing system, from what is currently done for CLI/NetCo= nf/SNMP. =A0In
> =A0 =A0 > those cases,
> =A0 =A0 > the latest writing wins and installs its state. =A0For i2= rs, an idea
> =A0 =A0 > proposed (in
> =A0 =A0 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-irs= -policy-framework) is that
> =A0 =A0 > different i2rs clients
> =A0 =A0 > are decided between based upon precedence.
> =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 > Frequently, different services are "known" to n= ot collide, based upon
> =A0 =A0 > human-assigned
> =A0 =A0 > policy - such as different prefixes for different traffic= types, etc.
> =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 > To get things started with a use-case, consider that ther= e are two
> =A0 =A0 > different services
> =A0 =A0 > that are using i2rs.
> =A0 =A0 > =A0 =A0 a) Special Traffic Flow Routing: =A0a service tha= t installs
> =A0 =A0 > policy-based routing filters to
> =A0 =A0 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 route specific traffic on predetermined p= aths.
> =A0 =A0 > =A0 =A0 b) DDoS Detection: =A0a service that detects traf= fic of interest and
> =A0 =A0 > installs policy-based
> =A0 =A0 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0routing filters to route the suspicious tr= affic to an
> =A0 =A0 analysis box.
> =A0 =A0 > In this case, the second service could have a higher prec= edence to
> =A0 =A0 > override the first service's
> =A0 =A0 > installed filters when necessary.
> =A0 =A0 >
> =A0 =A0 > Any opinions?
>
> =A0 =A0 More like a thought. =A0In the use case you describe, couldn&#= 39;t both
> =A0 =A0 coexist? =A0Meaning you could simply have two PBR "action= s," one that
> =A0 =A0 routes the traffic and the other that copies the interesting t= raffic to
> =A0 =A0 the DDoS sniffer. =A0So the precedence may be the same and bot= h can
> =A0 =A0 coexist. =A0Now, if the DDoS service finds a problem in the co= pied
> =A0 =A0 traffic, it can install an overlapping policy that would preem= pt the
> =A0 =A0 original.
>
>
> Exactly - both could exist unless the DDoS service finds a problem wit= h
> a flow being routed by the first service.

That coexist wasn't clear (at least to me) in the draft or = your
description here. =A0But maybe this wouldn't be considered overlap in t= he
precedence sense?

Yes, I wasn't considering= it overlap - just like two routes in the RIB aren't
overlapp= ing if they're not the same prefix.=A0
>
>
> =A0 =A0 As to the flow in the draft, if the new, higher-precedence ser= vice is
> =A0 =A0 transient and the store-if-not-best bit is set, then the previ= ous state
> =A0 =A0 will be restored (if it has the next best precedence). =A0Shou= ldn't the
> =A0 =A0 commissioner be notified again that its state is active again?=
>
>
> Absolutely - I'll double-check to be sure that's in there when= we revise
> the draft.

Thanks.

Joe

--
Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0||||| =A0 =A0 =A0|||||
Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:..
Phone: += 1 (919) 392-2867 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 c i s c o =A0S y s t e m s
Email: jclarke@cisco.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -

--e0cb4efe2b2a57e38004d3fdc518-- From jclarke@cisco.com Wed Jan 23 16:26:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C4921F857D for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5D4LI3V5laf for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-tac-rtp.cisco.com (av-tac-rtp.cisco.com [64.102.19.209]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 520BC21F844A for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-TACSUNS: Virus Scanned Received: from rooster.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by av-tac-rtp.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0O0QSg5013972; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtp-vpn1-595.cisco.com (rtp-vpn1-595.cisco.com [10.82.226.83]) by rooster.cisco.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0O0QRQk003524; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:26:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <51007FB3.7050603@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:26:27 -0500 From: Joe Marcus Clarke Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alia Atlas References: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> <51007D71.2010505@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:26:32 -0000 On 1/23/13 7:19 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Yes, I wasn't considering it overlap - just like two routes in the RIB > aren't > overlapping if they're not the same prefix. Got you. So maybe the use case should make it clear that the DDoS Service has already deemed a problem is seen (via some pre-programmed copy op) and it is now overriding the pre-existing state with a higher precedence state vs. simply inspecting traffic. In general, I think there is value to this, especially in the notification piece. This may help management systems suspend polling while a certain state is known not to exist. Joe -- Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, | | SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP ||||| ||||| Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:.. Phone: +1 (919) 392-2867 c i s c o S y s t e m s Email: jclarke@cisco.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From akatlas@gmail.com Wed Jan 23 16:29:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E747D21F8472 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XMIZSIVI+oPW for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF1C21F8B20 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id s4so3421724lbc.21 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dptKoxG899btWpJmssUom0/dEI3fJCFYHx1fl69EMh8=; b=L94o+XCAJo9r0VhTdShRkx9s703dhXwopebwiQE+Ua+IjrTfRN1+uwN/U+K0KIoAag Z0fBSv/B+C9wrSsf3GgRq8jjIBlusUSDWUt2qYDMRgtPglMUVNGmEDRlyiTNwuBoQmcc zUagqAlEsP5J53CW6i4+Yk2/uvXcadWRgHuYbpAfACRihtY7bLKTYEdcEyumpPBxFgGh fW6tgJNfNDOGDXFHrxI2/kLxW8Pp41DY7m8KhbXR//hEBbvXwQgB9S/LnPxGF6J6BH+7 ipEiYPhV+Ugm0hEYdiOMP3fqJPpmz0zqWxrNh8HrbB8iuaem+8avgT/ybGvHT4yRfgLW A9cw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.104.199 with SMTP id gg7mr95324lab.14.1358987374061; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.112.49.3 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:29:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <51007FB3.7050603@cisco.com> References: <51007436.1000201@cisco.com> <51007D71.2010505@cisco.com> <51007FB3.7050603@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:29:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Joe Marcus Clarke Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d040890c1af6a6104d3fde7d3 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] multi-headed control X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:29:36 -0000 --f46d040890c1af6a6104d3fde7d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Joe Marcus Clarke wrote: > On 1/23/13 7:19 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > > Yes, I wasn't considering it overlap - just like two routes in the RIB > > aren't > > overlapping if they're not the same prefix. > > Got you. So maybe the use case should make it clear that the DDoS > Service has already deemed a problem is seen (via some pre-programmed > copy op) and it is now overriding the pre-existing state with a higher > precedence state vs. simply inspecting traffic. > Yes, the peril of not writing down assumptions. > > In general, I think there is value to this, especially in the > notification piece. This may help management systems suspend polling > while a certain state is known not to exist. > Good to hear. Providing good notifications seems critical to making good control loops and having i2rs scale. Alia > > Joe > > -- > Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, | | > SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP ||||| ||||| > Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:.. > Phone: +1 (919) 392-2867 c i s c o S y s t e m s > Email: jclarke@cisco.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --f46d040890c1af6a6104d3fde7d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Joe Mar= cus Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com> wrote:
On 1/23/13 7:19 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Yes, I wasn't considering it overlap - just like two routes in the= RIB
> aren't
> overlapping if they're not the same prefix.

Got you. =A0So maybe the use case should make it clear that the DDoS<= br> Service has already deemed a problem is seen (via some pre-programmed
copy op) and it is now overriding the pre-existing state with a higher
precedence state vs. simply inspecting traffic.

Yes, the peril of not writing down assumptions.=A0

In general, I think there is value to this, especially in the
notification piece. =A0This may help management systems suspend polling
while a certain state is known not to exist.

Good to hear.
Providing good notifications seems critical t= o making good control loops
and having i2rs scale.

Alia
=A0

Joe

--
Joe Marcus Clarke, CCIE #5384, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
SCJP, SCSA, SCNA, SCSECA, VCP =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0||||| =A0 =A0 =A0|||||
Distinguished Services Engineer ..:|||||||||::|||||||||:..
Phone: += 1 (919) 392-2867 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 c i s c o =A0S y s t e m s
Email: jclarke@cisco.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -

--f46d040890c1af6a6104d3fde7d3-- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 24 04:58:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674A821F8A0C for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V+f4uInjxdyx for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (asmtp1.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.248]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E753021F89EE for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp1.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0OCwcpF001155; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:58:38 GMT Received: from 950129200 (83-215-186-5.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at [83.215.186.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp1.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0OCwLU8000895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:58:22 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Alia Atlas'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:58:19 -0000 Message-ID: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AC_01CDFA32.7E75F1A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHJ+Xb5kK5mOPz7F7PRfFqN9ZY8lJhgZmWQ Content-Language: en-gb Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:58:42 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01CDFA32.7E75F1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information provided without comment... draft-ietf-ipfix-information-model-rfc5102bis has approached the problem of an information model without a modelling language. I think the problem it is solving is simpler than in I2RS. You might ask the Ops ADs for input on this topic. A From: i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas Sent: 23 January 2013 21:44 To: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: [i2rs] format for information models As part of the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce information models. I know there's lots of interest in this and it would be great to agree on a format that we'd like to see the information models in. >From my perspective (learning all the time), an information model is to describe the information and purpose of the data needed in the model, without all the details that make the reasoning and structure hard to understand (and also take lots of time to develop). Of course, there's Wikipedia's definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model) and various RFCs that include information models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). Frequently, the information model can just be in English. Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if we can discuss and agree on a format to try for the information models. What I'd suggest is basically a data-tree (similar to the TreeOutput from pyang - seen at http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per data item. The required information would be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a reference (to where else the concept is defined). What do you all think? Any better/different ideas? Alia ------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01CDFA32.7E75F1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Information provided without = comment...

 

draft-ietf-ipfix-information-model-rfc5102bis has = approached the problem of an information model without a modelling = language. I think the problem it is solving is simpler than in = I2RS.

 

You might ask the Ops ADs for = input on this topic.

 

A

 

From: = i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Alia Atlas
Sent: 23 January 2013 21:44
To: = i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: [i2rs] format for information = models

 

As part of =  the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce = information models.  I know there's

lots of interest in this and it would be great to = agree on a format that we'd like to see the information = models

in.

 

From my perspective (learning all the time), an = information model is to describe the information and = purpose

of the data needed = in the model, without all the details that make the reasoning and = structure hard to understand

(and also take lots of time to develop).  Of = course, there's Wikipedia's definition (http://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/Information_model)

and various RFCs that include information models (RFC = 5102, 3585, etc).  Frequently, the information = model

can just be in = English.

 

Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if = we can discuss and agree on a format to try for the = information

models. =  What I'd suggest is basically a data-tree (similar to the = TreeOutput from pyang - seen at 

http://code.googl= e.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per data item. =  The required information would 

be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a = reference (to where else the concept is = defined).

 

What do you all think?  Any better/different = ideas?

 

Alia

------=_NextPart_000_00AC_01CDFA32.7E75F1A0-- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 24 05:18:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FCC21F8947 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:18:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id be+uQKWu20Mm for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1DE21F8949 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ODIQRD016937 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:18:26 GMT Received: from 950129200 (83-215-186-5.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at [83.215.186.5]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0ODGIOs016063 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:18:17 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:16:13 -0000 Message-ID: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac36NPkpxmCJ5isGR3KeQz/X5F8xfQ== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:18:29 -0000 Hi, One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling with the difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. In response to a previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture could be written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level". He now says... > You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture and framework". > That's a step in the right direction. > Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and > framework" to "High-level architecture" Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only like "architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of "Is this an architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make his change without feeling too depressed. Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? Adrian From tnadeau@juniper.net Thu Jan 24 05:21:41 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D33D21F8A45 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:21:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XGRy33OlEZMy for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og117.obsmtp.com (exprod7og117.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAFE21F8A35 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob117.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUQE1Y00nHxE79V27uq9Q3vve8bVO/cQQ@postini.com; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:21:39 PST Received: from P-CLDFE02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.60) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:20:17 -0800 Received: from o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.224) by o365mail.juniper.net (172.24.192.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.355.2; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:20:16 -0800 Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (213.199.154.205) by o365mail.juniper.net (207.17.137.224) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:28:16 -0800 Received: from mail98-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.252) by AM1EHSOBE005.bigfish.com (10.3.204.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:14 +0000 Received: from mail98-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail98-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E893C0204 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.245.197; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); (null); H:CH1PRD0511HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -22 X-BigFish: PS-22(zz98dI9371I1432Izz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahz31iz1033IL8275dhz2dh2a8h668h839h944hd25he5bhf0ah1220h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h18e1h1155h) Received: from mail98-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail98-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1359033612793111_29769; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS019.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.248]) by mail98-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE78E2A0050; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0511HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.197) by AM1EHSMHS019.bigfish.com (10.3.207.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:12 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0511MB420.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.9.167]) by CH1PRD0511HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.159.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0257.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:08 +0000 From: Thomas Nadeau To: "" Thread-Topic: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak Thread-Index: Ac36NPkpxmCJ5isGR3KeQz/X5F8xfQAAI5gI Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:20:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3EC4EAFA-D3B6-4502-8224-20140269B7FC@juniper.net> References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [72.71.250.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%OLDDOG.CO.UK$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:21:41 -0000 I agree with you; that doesn't seem to make much of a difference except th= at it should be reflected explicitly in the work items at the end. --Tom On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:18 AM, "Adrian Farrel" wrote: > Hi, >=20 > One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling wi= th the > difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. In response= to a > previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture coul= d be > written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level". He n= ow > says... >=20 >> You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture and framework". >> That's a step in the right direction. >> Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and >> framework" to "High-level architecture" >=20 > Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only like > "architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of "Is this = an > architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make his= change > without feeling too depressed. >=20 > Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? >=20 > Adrian >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >=20 From eosborne@cisco.com Thu Jan 24 06:12:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E85221F8552 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:12:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OfbX9owJhsIY for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CBC21F85A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:12:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1630; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1359036746; x=1360246346; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=IW6Ni1jqgApOsJutLBxN7Hb3EdkIWEOWvS6DySmtRDY=; b=jXA0ikH4lIWZ59qOGki9CiBfYSKrOmG21esQCycSEPzKJDzv3O/RTSGM MFT+gZzN+QBq6+PVBDKW6SEk8dAVprExbeG+0j/P3HP4XzopGvPMUpaAU FDzkzj8ZLDrQMBAe+EG0Yyg8WTaTDsZJt9pD5beMKTUV2oee7mtyEMzZo U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAFAB4/AVGtJV2a/2dsb2JhbABEvkgWc4IeAQEBBAEBATc0FwQCAQgRAQMBAQsUCQcnCxQDBggBAQQBEggTh38MvWwEkBphA6ZUgniCJA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,529,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="167414145" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jan 2013 14:12:25 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com [173.36.12.76]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r0OECPEL024662 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:12:25 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([169.254.9.149]) by xhc-aln-x02.cisco.com ([173.36.12.76]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:12:25 -0600 From: "Eric Osborne (eosborne)" To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "i2rs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak Thread-Index: Ac36NPkpxmCJ5isGR3KeQz/X5F8xfQAB5YRw Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:12:24 +0000 Message-ID: <20ECF67871905846A80F77F8F4A27572100B00B3@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.86.254.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:12:26 -0000 Are you proposing that 'architecture' and 'high-level architecture' mean tw= o separate things? If yes, I think that's going to make it awkward to discuss. =20 If no, I'm not sure why the qualifier 'high-level' is needed. I'll go back and hide under my bridge now.... eric > -----Original Message----- > From: i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Adrian Farrel > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:16 AM > To: i2rs@ietf.org > Subject: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak >=20 > Hi, >=20 > One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling wi= th the > difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. In response= to a > previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture coul= d > be written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level". H= e now > says... >=20 > > You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture and framework". > > That's a step in the right direction. > > Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architecture > > and framework" to "High-level architecture" >=20 > Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only like > "architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of "Is this = an > architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make his > change without feeling too depressed. >=20 > Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? >=20 > Adrian >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs From jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 24 06:51:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F7F21F8A42 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:50:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKhpj5Uf8oXl for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:50:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.lcs.mit.edu (mercury.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B8D21F8A1C for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 06:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 11178) id 6EB3518C13D; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:50:51 -0500 (EST) To: i2rs@ietf.org Message-Id: <20130124145051.6EB3518C13D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:50:51 -0500 (EST) From: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Cc: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:51:00 -0000 > From: "Adrian Farrel" > One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling > with the difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. >> I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and >> framework" to "High-level architecture" > Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? To me, "high-level architecture" is beyond utterly redundant. (If it's not high-level, it's not architecture.) If 'architecture and framework' doesn't fly (it doesn't bother me that much, and I see your point about avoiding the question, although I too am not sure I see much of a distinction), just flip a coin (literally) and pick one. Noel From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 07:47:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0349721F87FD for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:47:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id srgiU4IrDiAu for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-x22c.google.com (ia-in-x022c.1e100.net [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E5D21F87B2 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f172.google.com with SMTP id u8so5070327iag.31 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=98l71etrHunyQhC4XbKPy+Bj53rDdVE8+WFDvK1w4o8=; b=pNGdD7bdV9fKsxq/BKK2o0j/hpUodsNE3QWpFIqJTXT6oCGeTldIUxSY9W/NRXtVoT MHsedlKATweh30l07Tk5QNxwkw96OMtXzOtoX78RzthQZDDX5XNcc7R6wbYGIB2pKH5b 7JBknd6bLwRV/TD1Lr6MjY5sKFafBDjmfsMrj1ur0XL+yZPTJX9wjAkko1ZFyiXof1g4 muJDOAcyPmfPvSD2VVxFguP9cky7dW8SK7yt1Wd8GvrjHVTWy8IuLCFIrdJhCXMEDW2O uJvTzOyL+MV0TAvCf3sIcnOFuuqPofNWMXkVPgUpi0vmgo/N8Pm8+ntcvSlzcscTTaQe e9Uw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.56.232 with SMTP id d8mr1587626igq.112.1359042431354; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:47:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, bclaise@cisco.com, Ron Bonica Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0402df885b07bd04d40ab9ab Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:47:13 -0000 --f46d0402df885b07bd04d40ab9ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sure - I'd, of course, be interested in their suggestions. Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Information provided without comment...**** > > ** ** > > draft-ietf-ipfix-information-model-rfc5102bis has approached the problem > of an information model without a modelling language. I think the problem > it is solving is simpler than in I2RS.**** > > ** ** > > You might ask the Ops ADs for input on this topic.**** > > ** ** > > A**** > > ** ** > > *From:* i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Alia Atlas > *Sent:* 23 January 2013 21:44 > > *To:* i2rs@ietf.org > *Subject:* [i2rs] format for information models**** > > ** ** > > As part of the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce > information models. I know there's**** > > lots of interest in this and it would be great to agree on a format that > we'd like to see the information models**** > > in.**** > > ** ** > > From my perspective (learning all the time), an information model is to > describe the information and purpose**** > > of the data needed in the model, without all the details that make the > reasoning and structure hard to understand**** > > (and also take lots of time to develop). Of course, there's Wikipedia's > definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_model)**** > > and various RFCs that include information models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). > Frequently, the information model**** > > can just be in English.**** > > ** ** > > Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if we can discuss and > agree on a format to try for the information**** > > models. What I'd suggest is basically a data-tree (similar to the > TreeOutput from pyang - seen at **** > > http://code.google.com/p/pyang/wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per > data item. The required information would **** > > be a description, a type, and, if appropriate, a reference (to where else > the concept is defined).**** > > ** ** > > What do you all think? Any better/different ideas?**** > > ** ** > > Alia**** > --f46d0402df885b07bd04d40ab9ab Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure - I'd, of course, be interested in their suggestions.

Alia

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 7:58 = AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

Information p= rovided without comment...

=A0<= /p>

draft-ietf-ipfix-infor= mation-model-rfc5102bis has approached the problem of an information model = without a modelling language. I think the problem it is solving is simpler = than in I2RS.

=A0<= /p>

You might ask the Ops = ADs for input on this topic.

=A0<= /p>

A=

=A0<= /p>

From: i2rs-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Beha= lf Of Alia Atlas
Sent: 23 January 2013 21:44


To: i2rs@ietf.org
= Subject: [i2rs] format for information models

=

=A0

As part of =A0the proposed i2rs charter, the WG would need to produce i= nformation models. =A0I know there's

lots of interest in this and it would be great to ag= ree on a format that we'd like to see the information models<= /u>

in.

=A0

From my perspective = (learning all the time), an information model is to describe the informatio= n and purpose

of the dat= a needed in the model, without all the details that make the reasoning and = structure hard to understand

(and also take lots of time to develop). = =A0Of course, there's Wikipedia's definition (http://en.wikipedia= .org/wiki/Information_model)

and various RFCs that include information= models (RFC 5102, 3585, etc). =A0Frequently, the information model<= u>

can just be in English.<= u>

=A0

Based on some side conversations, I'd like to see if we = can discuss and agree on a format to try for the information<= /p>

models. =A0What I'd suggest is basica= lly a data-tree (similar to the TreeOutput from pyang - seen at=A0

http://code.google.com/p/pyang= /wiki/TreeOutput) and then information per data item. =A0The required i= nformation would=A0

be a description, a type, and, if appropr= iate, a reference (to where else the concept is defined).

=

=A0

What do you all think? =A0Any better/different ideas?

=A0

Alia


--f46d0402df885b07bd04d40ab9ab-- From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 07:52:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A25021F8956 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:52:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TBc+gOv9Khoj for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f49.google.com (mail-oa0-f49.google.com [209.85.219.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5FC21F8584 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id l10so9892747oag.22 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:52:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=dSyC0DuuXAVZv01bYzW3rzl069RV+JCzcxzyZz79Ssg=; b=N8RThsmkbSGLFBEOJ6VAld+BSRUOtvwm4bJHXfWzlXp2DVFMQ/MoO+SDdlKf6Gf/6R ZJA5SLzEjAl8WoOJT1R3wAet706YAo7zhvOd7xa8rpEMRNU0ozS+x/Wr8HIMA0Iw7AaG YM0yLSnwoxCDT5ihbd+r2cPac1dpIS1D6VA7Ga14pd5tXB2AdyNmdpYF0uGCgJHZnbjQ uMS9GOOvuZEvJxdOTIEq9SfnORIKLDz5Ju51lA0SYMThQg09t1s3W51Cgw9QTbG7/y7e nGeWf0GB0kGYKXv4aNjk01s4T/0o35N+fTtZvUg+xHXoPAMIvX6jOXPGM1MZFaqQ0ItI BLLw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.163.104 with SMTP id yh8mr1714646igb.112.1359042727037; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 07:52:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:52:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f646c97facb0004d40aca02 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:52:10 -0000 --e89a8f646c97facb0004d40aca02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, It wouldn't make me apoplectic - but I think we have some understanding of what is meant by "architecture" and "framework" in the context of i2rs. The individual framework draft talks about desired aspects of the i2rs solution and the scope of interfaces that are intended. An architecture draft, to my mind, would talk about the different entities using i2rs, the interactions with different protocols, and how i2rs can be used in different, well, architectures - so that Dmitri's draft is a very preliminary step in that direction. Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is desired and required in i2rs, giving the scope and reasoning. Perhaps it should turn into a requirements draft? Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling > with the > difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. In response > to a > previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture could > be > written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level". He now > says... > > > You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture and framework". > > That's a step in the right direction. > > Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and > > framework" to "High-level architecture" > > Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only like > "architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of "Is this an > architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make his > change > without feeling too depressed. > > Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? > > Adrian > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > --e89a8f646c97facb0004d40aca02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

It wouldn't make me apoplectic - but I think we = have some understanding of what=A0
is meant by "architecture= " and "framework" in the context of i2rs.

The individual framework draft talks about desired aspects of the i2rs= solution and the
scope of interfaces that are intended. =A0An ar= chitecture draft, to my mind, would
talk about the different enti= ties using i2rs, the interactions with different protocols,
and how i2rs can be used in different, well, architectures - so that D= mitri's draft
is a very preliminary step in that direction.

Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is des= ired and required in i2rs, giving the
scope and reasoning. =A0 Perhaps it should turn into a requirements dr= aft?

Alia

On Thu= , Jan 24, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling with= the
difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'= ;. In response to a
previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture could = be
written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level&quo= t;. He now
says...

> You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture = and framework".
> That's a step in the right direction.
> Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architect= ure and
> framework" to "High-level architecture"

Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only lik= e
"architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of &= quot;Is this an
architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make = his change
without feeling too depressed.

Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer?

Adrian


_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

--e89a8f646c97facb0004d40aca02-- From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Thu Jan 24 08:00:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D3E21F8942 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:00:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9q4qqWvLmEal for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C7B21F8855 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.49]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B92620BF1; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:00:48 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius4.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tw6PZS56Fi65; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:00:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A77220BD8; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:00:48 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id E434D2427D82; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:00:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:00:50 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Adrian Farrel Message-ID: <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Farrel , 'Alia Atlas' , i2rs@ietf.org References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, 'Alia Atlas' Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:00:50 -0000 On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:58:19PM +0000, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Information provided without comment... > > draft-ietf-ipfix-information-model-rfc5102bis has approached the problem of an > information model without a modelling language. I think the problem it is > solving is simpler than in I2RS. > RFC 5102 and RFC 5102bis are in my view not good example for information models. They essentially defines some core data types and the mechanisms to define derived data types, called 'Information Elements' in IPFIX. The core of IPFIX does not even know about structured data types (RFC 6313 added this capability). So yes, the problem IPFIX initially addressed was rather simple. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 08:13:45 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1EB21F8A74 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:13:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ln4GU5v+rrvn for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-x22c.google.com (mail-ia0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F3721F8A72 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f172.google.com with SMTP id u8so4976355iag.17 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=lmVHJLCmDnnviKNgGbbu3B+/0lxUmF0L9doFD6NavOI=; b=wc2Vi5Fyxo4LWSkg6ez4+7LHmyXdHIc6Cf5FzMz8YCcCaz/hCV2Ca/CmwNpcL5Srxs VaR0aH+Go3oc54TQOiBU6GRh3/5Vdclxc81mzViJ2FIFKVM/yDkOLnjl59S7DpAnYT39 Vs3UHyx/jvDQ2me74d6K1+xtxPp932cU1jEgOUO254xmKZI5NjL02T+9BvnZuBnrzbNF oYN6KYKQ3sCfAA+ipC9HJmrksP6V5BM4/7XvPDZenFT7uZhBG4Oroaknmz59/ydQoAXc 04HliJ7XMstt5nwcqEiaMwZhqhu39lFLl1SKZrVayzJnKRU7ScEkSFNpz+m82kkQ8S3G tneQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.222.201 with SMTP id qo9mr1743314igc.111.1359044024293; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:13:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:13:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Adrian Farrel , Alia Atlas , i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934112d4d5aff04d40b182d Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:13:45 -0000 --14dae934112d4d5aff04d40b182d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Juergen, What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:58:19PM +0000, Adrian Farrel wrote: > > Information provided without comment... > > > > draft-ietf-ipfix-information-model-rfc5102bis has approached the problem > of an > > information model without a modelling language. I think the problem it is > > solving is simpler than in I2RS. > > > > RFC 5102 and RFC 5102bis are in my view not good example for > information models. They essentially defines some core data types and > the mechanisms to define derived data types, called 'Information > Elements' in IPFIX. The core of IPFIX does not even know about > structured data types (RFC 6313 added this capability). So yes, the > problem IPFIX initially addressed was rather simple. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --14dae934112d4d5aff04d40b182d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Juergen,

What would you recommend for an information mod= el for i2rs?

Alia

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12= :58:19PM +0000, Adrian Farrel wrote:
> Information provided without comment...
>
> draft-ietf-ipfix-information-model-rfc5102bis has approached the probl= em of an
> information model without a modelling language. I think the problem it= is
> solving is simpler than in I2RS.
>

RFC 5102 and RFC 5102bis are in my view not good example for
information models. They essentially defines some core data types and
the mechanisms to define derived data types, called 'Information
Elements' in IPFIX. The core of IPFIX does not even know about
structured data types (RFC 6313 added this capability). So yes, the
problem IPFIX initially addressed was rather simple.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49= 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax: =A0 += 49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--14dae934112d4d5aff04d40b182d-- From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de Thu Jan 24 08:26:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1325B21F84F6 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:26:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.123 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.123 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.126, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMLlSJFtJQST for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B87121F857D for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4503B20A01; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:26:04 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_kwzGYYxT_g; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:26:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from elstar.local (elstar.jacobs.jacobs-university.de [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCD232090B; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:26:03 +0100 (CET) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id C0A3A2427EBC; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:26:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:26:07 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Alia Atlas Message-ID: <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Mail-Followup-To: Alia Atlas , Adrian Farrel , i2rs@ietf.org References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Adrian Farrel , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:26:11 -0000 On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > Juergen, > > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are involved - then you need additional diagrams. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From edc@google.com Thu Jan 24 08:29:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DE821F8732 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:29:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lIg69WCCwze6 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-f41.google.com (mail-qa0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2845721F84F6 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id o19so475739qap.14 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:29:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=x1aul0Q64b6CSAM8v3M9Kuo7vvsKnus+viSQU+eynSU=; b=MZyky1ckvrmXl+Xo+1Ld1EdZIH/MhkBQRJSxWrSfpw0d5HLE6zcMT9OnzTeDq8D9rW HXWPbuobsZFS5odKem1ZquZwZ2nRGVgW+PC1w6qxhPfPHvo1QltKjAtgWejbYZFwhT0+ npl8J5fMTGOHQP3XBvtdc77TXq+3aqna82Y3Tn10IfYOUhcTQb8+PsHUxdtMK+m8rxom 6SIc/hdwbGv0xghiDMXjz5KOCZwALhYS5xCS3R8KHrkkqMpeq8SWAkrJ4HtqqabfLCmE 7Gy3XtB5sk7PHo6FL8loaSO7wX02zKatR3oMXHYcUTohIFjVaQJxePLZrgbezV9q7k8R LtnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=x1aul0Q64b6CSAM8v3M9Kuo7vvsKnus+viSQU+eynSU=; b=L3pygmdAvs5AHPQ2phKodQBJGSyVw4VOwoMXXnq1AvXN7McKHdojAuWljqk91UkNap XzOFMet3/jbLsrwRDrHig2ulJHp2taT6cxDC5AHeUXa0egHxEuPBf6cKAlKUpY3fmyeX ATw2Y8t1rnlmKYzL6lKBULLhqJBbNqW4Mh5IIpbvxB2vvl++UyTifoRppDM5ILEVZucH VbuEu/rjALmHL12MffLgTlJwJfAIIbZAobCm03VkQcGreOxsVv8HvSOvgDW/fqQEBe2B mcI8MyEd/DmiHeT3GMmVFZY1MSa1ftf9LUjLp1q6CPHEVSX/hmyWQUAfX4QTUpHl02VA 1mGA== X-Received: by 10.224.17.198 with SMTP id t6mr2646048qaa.84.1359044949555; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:29:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.49.2.74 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:28:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> From: Edward Crabbe Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:28:29 -0800 Message-ID: To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51dd8f173b8f104d40b4f84 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkAzifJshIsj0YzFgvE/pOXXV09W6GOqqG5y+U8aZvzRrTTzINRkxq9VZq8x8EKeR57DqTEr08QgiBBiIfznVzPJtn5zLuBZptDNB2BJVFljtUx2oaNFQiyrNRT3IRsjtrNgEaTMZkpXCOA2jXtQHrT5X5KH8JPMVUUmOw9fl5QAokRUGf/RC1luPi/+4wSE8UMEfCM Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:29:19 -0000 --bcaec51dd8f173b8f104d40b4f84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Alia; I tend to think of what you've described as applicability and requirements. A framework would, IMO, include some set of underlying primitives, mechanisms or structures that would form the basis for an extensible architecture. Having said that, there's clearly a lot of variation in the way these terms are used; I'm ok with 'high level architecture', although I agree with Noel that it's a bit tautological. On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi, > > It wouldn't make me apoplectic - but I think we have some understanding of > what > is meant by "architecture" and "framework" in the context of i2rs. > > The individual framework draft talks about desired aspects of the i2rs > solution and the > scope of interfaces that are intended. An architecture draft, to my mind, > would > talk about the different entities using i2rs, the interactions with > different protocols, > and how i2rs can be used in different, well, architectures - so that > Dmitri's draft > is a very preliminary step in that direction. > > Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is desired and required in > i2rs, giving the > scope and reasoning. Perhaps it should turn into a requirements draft? > > Alia > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling >> with the >> difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. In response >> to a >> previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture >> could be >> written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level". He >> now >> says... >> >> > You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture and framework". >> > That's a step in the right direction. >> > Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and >> > framework" to "High-level architecture" >> >> Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only like >> "architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of "Is this >> an >> architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make his >> change >> without feeling too depressed. >> >> Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? >> >> Adrian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > --bcaec51dd8f173b8f104d40b4f84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alia; =A0I tend to think of what you've described as a= pplicability=A0and requirements. =A0A framework would, IMO, include some se= t of underlying primitives, mechanisms or structures that would form the ba= sis for an extensible architecture. =A0

Having said that, there's clearly a lot of variati= on in the way these terms are used; =A0I'm ok with 'high level arch= itecture', although I agree with Noel that it's a bit tautological.= =A0


On Thu,= Jan 24, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wro= te:
Hi,

It wouldn't make = me apoplectic - but I think we have some understanding of what=A0
is meant by "architecture" and "framework" in the conte= xt of i2rs.

The individual framework draft talks about desired aspects of the i2rs= solution and the
scope of interfaces that are intended. =A0An ar= chitecture draft, to my mind, would
talk about the different enti= ties using i2rs, the interactions with different protocols,
and how i2rs can be used in different, well, architectures - so that D= mitri's draft
is a very preliminary step in that direction.

Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is des= ired and required in i2rs, giving the
scope and reasoning. =A0 Perhaps it should turn into a requirements dr= aft?

Alia<= /span>


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 a= t 8:16 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
Hi,

One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling with= the
difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'= ;. In response to a
previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture could = be
written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level&quo= t;. He now
says...

> You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture = and framework".
> That's a step in the right direction.
> Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architect= ure and
> framework" to "High-level architecture"

Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only lik= e
"architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of &= quot;Is this an
architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make = his change
without feeling too depressed.

Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer?

Adrian


_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


--bcaec51dd8f173b8f104d40b4f84-- From jmedved@cisco.com Thu Jan 24 08:31:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C66B21F8A1C for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4KHUfCcLn1eJ for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9D121F8A06 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:31:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1046; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1359045072; x=1360254672; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=6WTdSGN2PFkwIB27sPJB37L1mAzEYMwSe9f3IsDrkQw=; b=RrCe2mZLrPxWOO4GEirgetOGn2hg0JYx3GE4rPpL90W4PnprA00BUL+Z Gi30qbI5J84t9URToYFQNoqzNOYQQmN8A0fHkxNyZAievf6LxR5qydB2x hwDVbs6VdrQuRaIf4Ia2UvmilRolifckEO0GCdO5J8Dh9K0tYApF2YxdP 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAIthAVGtJXHB/2dsb2JhbABBA75IFnOCHgEBAQQBAQE3NAsOBAEIDgIIChQrDAslAgQBDQUIiBIMvhkEjUmCTWEDplSCeIIk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,530,1355097600"; d="scan'208";a="167512801" Received: from rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com ([173.37.113.193]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jan 2013 16:31:11 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com [173.36.12.84]) by rcdn-core2-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r0OGVB7T009318 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:31:11 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.5.78]) by xhc-aln-x10.cisco.com ([173.36.12.84]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:31:11 -0600 From: "Jan Medved (jmedved)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [i2rs] format for information models Thread-Index: AQHN+bLRN7mrhmS6RUOZISSP6xdev5hY1iaAgAAy/wCAAAOaAIAAA3aA//97TQA= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:31:11 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.4.120824 x-originating-ip: [10.27.7.170] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Adrian Farrel , "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:31:16 -0000 +1 for YANG tree diagrams to start with. On 1/24/13 8:26 AM, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" wrote: >On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> Juergen, >>=20 >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >>=20 > >Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >involved - then you need additional diagrams. > >/js > >--=20 >Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >_______________________________________________ >i2rs mailing list >i2rs@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs From lhotka@nic.cz Thu Jan 24 08:37:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E8AB21F89CB for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.461, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OEETk4jpULen for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14E321F8834 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.29.2.202] (nat-5.bravonet.cz [77.48.224.5]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5093140400; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:36:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1359045417; bh=XT47G+OpneSwCsb6KxlEdjvcmPvMh4mh71wGjqLejZk=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=Va/YIHhbxTH/b9omYK4qr2f6BGDJajuvgmoe21w2CcRZQ4ofZsbE56uMwEyioDKxr E/RqlXxJIwNshAmFs8c78ODs77KzzFHij3CqDxPw6pZGB7kKJHz81lgWHd8kzSYCZq ZL7d0Eo0buXyKq17vydI/pFA0TS5LxGQZUAqSCz8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:36:55 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2426A28B-D662-4F74-BA35-E79DB91E5DE4@nic.cz> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.5 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Adrian Farrel , i2rs@ietf.org, Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:37:00 -0000 On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder = wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> Juergen, >>=20 >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >>=20 >=20 > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > involved - then you need additional diagrams. I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG. Lada=20 >=20 > /js >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 08:41:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E77221F8801 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:41:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ajFD3-Qm9GF for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-x232.google.com (mail-ia0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FAE21F8956 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:41:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f178.google.com with SMTP id y26so5180142iab.9 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=A8vGStcYQd7StVHEpHZY1PqDYwlR6DHCNZCsHvr6MqM=; b=qmQg7pcD65JVLf26cV34yPdK5epCKcIFlwhEi+F8YteJkgOSL8ez30wt0pJAzN2Ksr 9E4YkjCbIMtKEZCl86F5wbQ9mxqOxvAa4X7nrBMyXz/iPvVXhk0qteEfoG9GQmWqUCCl IK2cRxMiGsrC80vGFZgFcFT1iXP8sMksdL6DvIt0zlbbn8VK64cEgLwR5NVbLFfY51Gs R2hiA2MWkRdzIGxgUVXyUaRZv1qzp3aNgbkWZf+x3wPN6JYEczthxTay8R/VnW7ashoc zy+NgJ07E1np9LKkhIi/nyiOctEbAUBcta401OItM/0I2a0F7tKdTWKfbuNT3ie/E8jb YCDg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.163.104 with SMTP id yh8mr1852805igb.112.1359045676737; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:41:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2426A28B-D662-4F74-BA35-E79DB91E5DE4@nic.cz> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> <2426A28B-D662-4F74-BA35-E79DB91E5DE4@nic.cz> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:41:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Ladislav Lhotka Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f646c97cba6e604d40b7a63 Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:41:19 -0000 --e89a8f646c97cba6e604d40b7a63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was just thinking that UML might be good to show the interrelationships, if those get complex. I'll take a look at RFC 6728. Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > >> Juergen, > >> > >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > >> > > > > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > > involved - then you need additional diagrams. > > I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG. > > Lada > > > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > > i2rs mailing list > > i2rs@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C > > > > > --e89a8f646c97cba6e604d40b7a63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was just thinking that UML might be good to show the interrelationships, = if=A0
those get complex. =A0I'll take a look at RFC 6728.

Alia

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013= at 11:36 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:

On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
>> Juergen,
>>
>> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>>
>
> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of=
> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick<= br> > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool = if
> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
> involved - then you need additional diagrams.

I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG.

Lada

>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGm= bH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany=
> Fax: =A0 +49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> ______________________________________________= _
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





--e89a8f646c97cba6e604d40b7a63-- From tnadeau@juniper.net Thu Jan 24 08:44:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAF221F897A for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:44:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldGqMQlp5N0Y for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og107.obsmtp.com (exprod7og107.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.167]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4544421F8503 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB02-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob107.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUQFk/Iu0TjH0SqlhkGiLUb6sIHz0W8BX@postini.com; 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R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -18 X-BigFish: PS-18(z426fnzbb2dI98dI9371I1432Izz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL17326ah8275dh8275bhz2dh2a8h668h839h944hd25hf0ah1220h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah13b6h1441h1504h1537h153bh15d0h162dh1631h1758h18e1h1155h) Received: from mail10-co1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail10-co1 (MessageSwitch) id 1359045753522493_11616; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:42:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CO1EHSMHS028.bigfish.com (unknown [10.243.78.196]) by mail10-co1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A2C4A0048; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:42:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0511HT003.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.197) by CO1EHSMHS028.bigfish.com (10.243.66.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:42:31 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0511MB420.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.9.167]) by CH1PRD0511HT003.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.159.38]) with mapi id 14.16.0257.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:42:30 +0000 From: Thomas Nadeau To: "Jan Medved (jmedved)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [i2rs] format for information models Thread-Index: AQHN+bLV6Y3KBr0GQ0+aOQHBraurt5hYcZGAgAAy/gCAAAObAIAAA3aAgAABaoD//69SgA== Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:42:30 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 x-originating-ip: [10.255.159.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%CISCO.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%JACOBS-UNIVERSITY.DE$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%GMAIL.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%OLDDOG.CO.UK$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Cc: Adrian Farrel , "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:44:46 -0000 +2 On 1/24/13 11:31 AM, "Jan Medved (jmedved)" wrote: >+1 for YANG tree diagrams to start with. > >On 1/24/13 8:26 AM, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > wrote: > >>On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >>> Juergen, >>>=20 >>> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >>>=20 >> >>Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >>i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >>something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >>overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >>many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >>involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >>/js >> >>--=20 >>Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >>Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >>Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >>_______________________________________________ >>i2rs mailing list >>i2rs@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > >_______________________________________________ >i2rs mailing list >i2rs@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From adrian@olddog.co.uk Thu Jan 24 09:32:48 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2682E21F878F for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P-PYcrV2eepV for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (asmtp2.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.249]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5253921F8635 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0OHWjOR019126 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:32:45 GMT Received: from 950129200 (089144192091.atnat0001.highway.a1.net [89.144.192.91]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0OHWh48019113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:32:44 GMT From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:32:43 -0000 Message-ID: <004a01cdfa58$d1df70c0$759e5240$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac36WJeN253fM9mVRaWGHDZ1ZZpADw== Content-Language: en-gb Subject: [i2rs] IESG Approves formation of I2RS working group X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:32:48 -0000 Hello, Break out the lemonade! The IESG has approved the creation of I2RS based on revision 0-10 of the charter. There are two pending actions: 1. The tweak for "high-level architecture and framework". I am hearing that we all think this is a bit of a pointless discussion, but that no-one is depressed by the change. I will go ahead and do it. 2. Appointment of chairs. I am pleased to say that Alia Atlas and Ed Crabbe have agreed to serve as chairs. Thanks to them for being willing to take this on. Please give them your full support. Expect the formal announcement soon. Cheers, Adrian From edc@google.com Thu Jan 24 10:28:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E2E11E80A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D91il97+P4Nq for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qe0-f51.google.com (mail-qe0-f51.google.com [209.85.128.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2DC21F8596 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qe0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 6so981670qea.10 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=gv2c0VDNnQg6QQCwcdJwSuoYvNMjP61Uu7LEYeDcwNU=; b=VnYho+NQRy43vlmcNWfId+k2H8Hj40BE6emmSzCks5IZiWjCHtShaQatzUaLU4xkEi ytwxWwDwDijxyO4lTFEZGXKltZxagYCgS20KjVr1QrAIyx9qc4GsxqnrOByl8Ylw4cNc fLEXNf7lXDoBCNDPe+9+ETjYk0wZkO805AznuEA5WJH5e1MabqBUa5brhg+B03OuNlXF tkQWaGKXeO0GFslcCRCQw0w1FVtpkBaxb2g81pmfjcVuQdn2LInQnjVwSVtAjmnoDrjL EnphD5AoOdHc8fgNmHpr8s4qzI4IAQqdCFjYBpqvh5zGgPco32vAS9ZnDZsY9JlM8LQW WKzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=gv2c0VDNnQg6QQCwcdJwSuoYvNMjP61Uu7LEYeDcwNU=; b=W7uZv2iJceNn8FdcRd7FZwh3U2SDeAhGLADXxyBseJfgHBakYYmfj+BrrYyf/6LGbK xweaccu8oVFMaJrgnHJ33ZmwxJ9ceKVxYRv3Fi6nBxx7t89ItIQoDX+ua9SZ5OK8abHW xl/pl1L7ZWUrNxfEPcbHr3V8fXNk3KsXtuD9BMyCGKj5NlHOqV9NZBwZ6LIH/D3UwvVk U9+SQF+ADKB2RYeeOu2ehCVq21pJqRCdgfjP6PXevrg4xQlVEkF+iWrUy0GUcwIjoOny V4OStEZKuSlwYavccMGXaqCmI17FPbKfEPvg3HvYlGI9Cs0dawEtVCH264KU8nfuYwhn Q8zA== X-Received: by 10.224.185.78 with SMTP id cn14mr3089037qab.30.1359052135951; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.49.2.74 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> From: Edward Crabbe Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:28:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas , Adrian Farrel , i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf302efa84cb6c4904d40cfbb1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlSAml0gRpEXaPBxWAMz9ONVUY52VagbPFKNCY3/z3HKut7yBSXk2sfh3xN7d3JTQKvnJwRDZ0JjS8zUcJio6AeXUMFgHkaxxLmqt/oY4XKGUfA/ro/fyj/WRWkDe6RVqP9QcxllZAP6CJx4PM3b1DnqNpA/ir/qMV9jG7M5tTaDCSgjyJuUcs5AIvI52I5f9H9msKr Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:28:57 -0000 --20cf302efa84cb6c4904d40cfbb1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would be a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > > Juergen, > > > > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > > > > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > involved - then you need additional diagrams. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > --20cf302efa84cb6c4904d40cfbb1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 here. =A0If the relationships are hierarchical / acycli= c then YANG would be a good choice /but/ =A0we also have=A0draft-amante-irs-topology= -use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming;= =A0if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships = and the physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives.=A0

I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit= premature to settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use= case set, *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. = =A0


On Thu,= Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.scho= enwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11= :13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity o= f
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49= 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax: =A0 += 49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_____________________________= __________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

--20cf302efa84cb6c4904d40cfbb1-- From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:33:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5A921F8589 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:33:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1yDgIzD+Tseu for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (ie-in-x0231.1e100.net [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF40F21F84F3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id k13so3949iea.22 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:33:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ll7v0uaZkYorixoC09RoGo+VZS5G9bTsbXgJskwODEE=; b=cV8lqGe62m2GBAnGtccy2JAh6TY0jPPary9Mhqu5/KB1Ol8oHBDQjJwziAnwz6VqTG 6XpYhuc9p9lAjW7F3Z/kmlhivfGSWhPZvyuRPzd8c1CXrlODrDspWxS376N5qp2LK6gX NgXqCSkaL+KgH+GldA0ZwP67/Pv2+CAtO06UHQuqX59zZtP1fWI1JfsYTA5UfYlakdgH crRGawETaBsvqqlp8sm/jIbEPO8+jGNstesqkA/dM8m3f9gf2PgKyN2fs+mXDgvZN/cI fjL7mBOMatiQwbFvqbxusMPg50AksRGP11MN2oOA3PxgnaKuBUfrhZL7jCbOWxObXZ6Q +PcA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.222.201 with SMTP id qo9mr2115791igc.111.1359052429496; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:33:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:33:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:33:49 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Edward Crabbe Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934112d4a93b004d40d0d4b Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:33:50 -0000 --14dae934112d4a93b004d40d0d4b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm hearing that a combination of YANG (treeOutput) for hierarchical and UML for relationships would be good. It is early to discuss this, but since I've heard of drafts in progress and have had the question about info-model vs. data-model asked, I think it is useful to discuss and agree on the basic way to write-up an info model for i2rs. Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: > +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would > be a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 > on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these > efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the > physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. > > I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to > settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, > *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > Juergen, >> > >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> > >> >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >> /js >> >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > > --14dae934112d4a93b004d40d0d4b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm hearing that a combination of YANG (treeOutput) for hierarchical an= d UML for relationships would be good.
It is early to discuss this, but= since I've heard of drafts in progress and have had the question about= info-model vs.
data-model asked, I think it is useful to discuss and agree on the bas= ic way to write-up an info model for i2rs.

Alia
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Edward Cra= bbe <edc@google.com> wrote:
+1 here. =A0If the relation= ships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would be a good choice /but/ =A0= we also have=A0draft-amant= e-irs-topology-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related docum= ents incoming; =A0if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer = relationships and the physical plant) we may want to look at other alternat= ives.=A0

I think this is an interesting= discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on a solution given= the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's almost never t= oo early to start experimenting. =A0


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:=
On T= hu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity o= f
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Br= emen, Germany
Fax: =A0 +49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.= de/>
_____________________________= __________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


--14dae934112d4a93b004d40d0d4b-- From tnadeau@juniper.net Thu Jan 24 10:35:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D2521F8652 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:35:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5PpyTks9OGgb for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from exprod7og126.obsmtp.com (exprod7og126.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.206]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B7E21F8613 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob126.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUQF+2s2jMRe/K9uzh137TdBF6gmVIjh4@postini.com; 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R:internal; EFV:INT X-SpamScore: -17 X-BigFish: PS-17(z426fnz98dI9371Ic85fh1432Izz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL17326ah8275dh18c673h8275bhz2dh2a8h668h839hd25hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h1504h1537h153bh15d0h162dh1631h1758h18e1h1155h) Received: from mail115-db3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail115-db3 (MessageSwitch) id 1359052440303959_23129; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:34:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from DB3EHSMHS005.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.81.232]) by mail115-db3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4639E3E02EF; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:34:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from CH1PRD0511HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.245.197) by DB3EHSMHS005.bigfish.com (10.3.87.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:34:00 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0511MB420.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.9.167]) by CH1PRD0511HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.159.40]) with mapi id 14.16.0257.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:33:58 +0000 From: Thomas Nadeau To: Edward Crabbe , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas , Adrian Farrel , "i2rs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [i2rs] format for information models Thread-Index: AQHN+bLV6Y3KBr0GQ0+aOQHBraurt5hYcZGAgAAy/gCAAAObAIAAA3aAgAAiH4D//63DAA== Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:33:57 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 x-originating-ip: [10.255.159.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64852CH1PRD0511MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%GOOGLE.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%JACOBS-UNIVERSITY.DE$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%GMAIL.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%OLDDOG.CO.UK$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:35:08 -0000 --_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64852CH1PRD0511MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Edward Crabbe > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:28 PM To: Juergen Schoenwaelder >, Alia Atlas >, Adrian Farrel >, "i2rs@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would b= e a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 o= n the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these eff= orts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the physical= plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to = settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *bu= t* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. That is my (implied) point for supporting the Yang approach. Specifically, = to me it is about picking an approach (that seems to have a lot of support)= and just working with it until someone finds something better to use. At= this point we need to stop talking about which hammer to pick, and instead= pick one and build something. Call it experimental or exploratory, but I w= ould like us to start building some examples. We can tear them down later,= but its clear we won't get anywhere until we start somewhere. --Tom On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder > wrote: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > Juergen, > > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are involved - then you need additional diagrams. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1= , 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 _______________________________________________ i2rs mailing list i2rs@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs --_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64852CH1PRD0511MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


From: Edward Crabbe <edc@google.com>
Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:= 28 PM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-u= niversity.de>, Alia Atlas <a= katlas@gmail.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for info= rmation models

+1 here.  If the relationships are hierarchical /= acyclic then YANG would be a good choice /but/  we also have draft-amante= -irs-topology-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming;  if these efforts move forward (ie: = modelling inter layer relationships and the physical plant) we may want to = look at other alternatives. 

I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premat= ure to settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case s= et, *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting.  

That i= s my (implied) point for supporting the Yang approach. Specifically, to me = it is about picking an approach (that seems to have a lot of support) and j= ust working with it until someone finds something better to use.   At this point we need to stop talking abou= t which hammer to pick, and instead pick one and build something. Call it e= xperimental or exploratory, but I would like us to start building some exam= ples.  We can tear them down later, but its clear we won't get anywhere until we start somewhere. 

--Tom<= /div>


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenw= aelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrot= e:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if
many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University = Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 = Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-univer= sity.de/>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

 --_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64852CH1PRD0511MB420_-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:53:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F45711E80BF for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:53:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QktZBvrqc1A1 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-da0-f53.google.com (mail-da0-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8352711E80AD for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-da0-f53.google.com with SMTP id x6so4377498dac.12 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:53:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=A/R69R6yjvUktX+xIbJd9PVDEgxVyupsxWIPxjYAWx8=; b=UnazP4qjhEsIYx4nkrvBsb+F8KRJWFsQr9sKtyeBfFPkYwsM3ROw/d0jW9wqaF497e eYazRgunzRvXmsGnddsQLOYNkUmchGe2/YhcHiCN7pmKAQ/oExtlaL6rk5WLIS7RxiEY PnfLGY29qzZQLnTLG8c00QQ1EQbrHv+k+pQoFGUziNYm+DY9aXloxBO73Js6Zcv02Eqf cd8I8vBw0qx9ougVic80JT8Xx1cF7iB7O8tdd5qtp+mY/8AKnOi/WNdNNYii/gxTDC8/ nNSu1QzqP7XZnMKoln1sZfjMcj24G8HvsuE+eipNMAEzanNrS4nfP7yGy4Io+mA66Ib7 xhyQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.136.73 with SMTP id py9mr7710242pbb.43.1359053610419; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:53:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:53:30 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: i2rs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:53:33 -0000 On 1/24/13, Alia Atlas wrote: > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? I would want that we do new model for the i2rs, because these models are different only if they have different purposes, and the i2rs has different purposes I think. I usually don't start with the IM or DM before the functions. I need to understand the functions then the information. So the question that I need to answer first is; What functions of I2RS do you have necessary or optional? after answering this I will be able to find my best information model. I hope this input has a good point, if not please ignore it, it was my thoughts to answer, AB From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 10:56:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BAA11E809A for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLBnQVa6uh90 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f41.google.com (mail-pa0-f41.google.com [209.85.220.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E4921F8464 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id bj3so5677314pad.14 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=cT3ZZZt0XOcqv8wwWQc77vptogPULZnwXwZRGnuzCQE=; b=CcbVPSXcnTqTeREHKJEbmTbpaVhRpxrXIwMjHCyh9ZfaecaHkcepB238KFfuhtnHka tRlHL9fmcVomYgf5SmCUkQPToS7k39hAxUK6CebRYrobHZfMqt8Hfe5C6CHG7LYobVpt SrPQNiyNkAODBbjz/yr/ck866H73BvNleqW+JsUf2xi6f9D9KsA7cKmXJLI5HGJvcpx+ HCjcz9MBDfYipL0TVJo8bgZj3+rovsQRe+tEbA72qDYNV/zZDxOfikhTrkLNhdzE7XUm TeiUZRAx75mXYMcG+2OD/98Vzq9LWKVf9e0POOBWTdnVFEEvH0DpqLgOab9Nn3IGpr/h ZO9g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.136.132 with SMTP id qa4mr7417463pbb.166.1359053776539; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <004a01cdfa58$d1df70c0$759e5240$@olddog.co.uk> References: <004a01cdfa58$d1df70c0$759e5240$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:56:16 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] IESG Approves formation of I2RS working group X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:56:18 -0000 That is a good news, thanks alot, and we will do our best, AB On 1/24/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hello, > > Break out the lemonade! > > The IESG has approved the creation of I2RS based on revision 0-10 of the > charter. > > There are two pending actions: > > 1. The tweak for "high-level architecture and framework". > I am hearing that we all think this is a bit of a pointless discussion, but > that > no-one is depressed by the change. > I will go ahead and do it. > > 2. Appointment of chairs. > I am pleased to say that Alia Atlas and Ed Crabbe have agreed to serve as > chairs. Thanks to them for being willing to take this on. Please give them > your > full support. > > Expect the formal announcement soon. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From swhyte@google.com Thu Jan 24 10:56:35 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CACB11E80BA for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XX-o33r026Gr for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-x234.google.com (ia-in-x0234.1e100.net [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2F7411E80AE for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f180.google.com with SMTP id f27so5182981iae.39 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ert/2ZZIOpQpiwzPYfGflsxIjHGLhWZpR1bXoSUkWFA=; b=AX142Qi2ozy8mKKRef0KLW09KfJcICGal/90FFoMQBLH3afDUVh7Z/ayMnQG6a2FNE rcpvUD+JGOfsNyLeK5tMLmTF8bSYZN2l/5nDM+06GYoaKN46f/zYSxkJdoOTAN285MQV iJw8A8iu8sMnTjGv+aSVtFUrfwcRrBN80dTXdAgncjNP8/WQSWzG+NnJmosRNdROC6oY V0qO6MOTenhODwTiZFY6LvwYxv91eTrfagLa9pWdJdXzfg2C2lL/1a3WcXPe7ZbaGG64 4ea97ePLaowkzQIS1o3s8mJlN5qE9gvL875Qn8whLmWCxrUF0KDiYTvDW1ZJmBOAKAtY uk4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=Ert/2ZZIOpQpiwzPYfGflsxIjHGLhWZpR1bXoSUkWFA=; b=SmHl4ecMQ8HOR6sm6R6IfCEME4HwOMvwUaslswa7G0rWn/D8CDLofCAhv6xax8AhR+ PtpTlViPSL/tWGNM7oE5zbh4fuhD6fgHTG68gxYRq4VxS4+6syqqofmg91puCLCwqeLs DImnFEB1TfdyS/Ia9MMrQfm4hOgjEE0T1z3Ld/f0LX6Xoc1ch3rv0hd8xC6JflGkTSgs Y17TMjIiERLLPBArDsnls56ygvOEoG/GzalLIx4+EUlrEZ7wNYkZDiX9lwWS1WvOgjMB 6soQxxyZrrD8bQ21+imEKelsAXh0SoUKUqPWpvmqkXDrvekwv3sDNpKi5JAWH/KeoySp ZXHA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.94.134 with SMTP id dc6mr2072098igb.80.1359053794173; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.43.70.74 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <004a01cdfa58$d1df70c0$759e5240$@olddog.co.uk> References: <004a01cdfa58$d1df70c0$759e5240$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 10:56:34 -0800 Message-ID: From: Scott Whyte To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlMoFxKDMtyRiBK4bt9XaliwVj+RGFrf2hFsH8LKF69qTHRBA9/cKsqxHj9NB0iWGiL1yRdVDp2SLReVZaXqIO4EXnmxIJIEiZ7aLM1FrKc6JVtuB5mkxwBQ68qlB4TNMLmsCwwadj3MPaLwKnahmY99beqScjHCOaPNzGuI91K6fBVRjmpgGuVDzBRWxKTaPKUyVsy Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] IESG Approves formation of I2RS working group X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:56:35 -0000 On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hello, > > Break out the lemonade! > > The IESG has approved the creation of I2RS based on revision 0-10 of the > charter. > > There are two pending actions: > > 1. The tweak for "high-level architecture and framework". > I am hearing that we all think this is a bit of a pointless discussion, but that > no-one is depressed by the change. > I will go ahead and do it. > > 2. Appointment of chairs. > I am pleased to say that Alia Atlas and Ed Crabbe have agreed to serve as > chairs. Thanks to them for being willing to take this on. Please give them your > full support. Congrats to them both! And thanks as well. -Scott > > Expect the formal announcement soon. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs -- panem et circenses - a winning strategy for over 2000 years! From n.milovanov@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:00:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A5011E80A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:00:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LMsPeSuCLbDc for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-f41.google.com (mail-bk0-f41.google.com [209.85.214.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD1C21F8506 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f41.google.com with SMTP id jg9so5507422bkc.0 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:00:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=HQNu2JESeIyggm9RiIPaP55S/yPz+sb/7X7qPUK7qD0=; b=V2hmsTsDMNP8WTOCT+/HDS4hQMV81zR+YC+rCuDvX1ApT0MoM04aqkmYc0axa3qrfa pO0Rsg3oP64c8NmR59j5diAcBkh8Y41L4/mDpKkqVRMYU/y5UUbLre44glgOiycQswaF URWpa5kbGW1QXZyI0aQX//ol0aDB7QZN8+ftzsAUz+rRhDt2lexBNLgCWK/+7c4R9xxh /bZ+F1dpo+R5kRAjCvthGCbkGhjT7dDIybTeKXMfFLkarDwt9ZK7OlchIQ2r48GpmSZ/ tLZbT1aje7EQHZVpxU/MI5+Eclk/Jgd9nRocY+nEfN8f6mBap5xl2LPHUy5nEhP2nGjI vxgQ== X-Received: by 10.204.129.68 with SMTP id n4mr1139528bks.102.1359054015786; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.34] ([93.155.231.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f24sm433659bkw.4.2013.01.24.11.00.13 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:00:14 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A4E51083-44B4-4A00-ABC9-7953521B2CF3" From: Nikolay Milovanov In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:00:50 +0200 Message-Id: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> To: Edward Crabbe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , i2rs@ietf.org, Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:00:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A4E51083-44B4-4A00-ABC9-7953521B2CF3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi,=20 I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal = is architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane = control of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to = model the hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely = there might be a need to model the topology of the network or even the = topology on different network layers.=20 Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and = if I understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the = model. I would like to make a bridge between the network architecture = modeling and software architecture modeling.=20 So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture = modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like = UML) and informal for example visio drawings.=20 =46rom those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It = based on the idea that the topology consists of components and = connectors and each component has ports and each connector roles. Acme = is also good for modeling the properties of different components, = connectors, ports and roles. I find it good compared to other languages = including UML because it allows definition of families of systems and = more importantly putting constrains on them. For example connector X, = with roles Y can't go in Component Z with Port H. I find ACME quite nice = for modeling systems and even system of systems. The good part of it is = that it also comes with a tool that is handy for modeling.=20 ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are good = for modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive systems. I = am not sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won't comment = on that.=20 Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on the = TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is based = on UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model network = resources and network services. Personally (as a network engineer) I = find SID and UML a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for = example the developers from my team find it nice and easy to = understand).=20 The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different = stakeholders that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from = software community and network engineers) and it might be good if the = working group produces views of the models that will allow different = stakeholders to reason about them.=20 BR,=20 Nikolay Milovanov=20 New Bulgarian University=20 n.milovanov@gmail.com=20 On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: > +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG = would be a good choice /but/ we also have = draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some = related documents incoming; if these efforts move forward (ie: = modelling inter layer relationships and the physical plant) we may want = to look at other alternatives.=20 >=20 > I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit = premature to settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the = use case set, *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. =20= >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder = wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > > Juergen, > > > > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > > >=20 > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > involved - then you need additional diagrams. >=20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >=20 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs --Apple-Mail=_A4E51083-44B4-4A00-ABC9-7953521B2CF3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 n.milovanov@gmail.com 


On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward = Crabbe wrote:

+1 here.  If the relationships are hierarchical / = acyclic then YANG would be a good choice /but/  we also = have draft-amante-i= rs-topology-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related = documents incoming;  if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling = inter layer relationships and the physical plant) we may want to look at = other alternatives. 

I think this = is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on = a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's = almost never too early to start experimenting.  


On = Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> = wrote:
On = Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the = scope/complexity of
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a = quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if
many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         = Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         = <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing = list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/i2rs

= --Apple-Mail=_A4E51083-44B4-4A00-ABC9-7953521B2CF3-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:03:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB6A21F84ED for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:03:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tG6A2rJmp6iP for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f42.google.com (mail-pb0-f42.google.com [209.85.160.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C66721F84DE for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id rp2so5635192pbb.29 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:03:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=0ude6FEMB4PfUA/sipaPYRieIH5Gj8qSp9Umu0l12zc=; b=Sh1/AsKKRhIFVsy/i6HHoXn3sNQF1TcF+/wj8vQ8xEpCWhbCw4/nFO+GS4zWhvVaxa f/XwaSrxmWFCuyeFxTZIA7k07WY2lQaj+w6hoUD5S6B+Fyvj9cDLfraDM08BNqtI0Rww 8mC+/Q6ZIW2MSBrLCDvtHFay64Jk0iDIf7DKVCmc8cZs1VCB1G1iz5ziHrnsG7CukXyZ KBr3dtj9A98B8mrBiaSV0Pqcg5L9VF5oxKXhjfsRJeMVgc9p7hZfox70uFBS+xKUarBZ K6md7r9WHn0CQRv7NBhcrUQeLZ35RPTq+DBhFR3O2jOnLs+KZkfQijPqf7j9OVslTflr vDHg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.79.168 with SMTP id k8mr7270662pax.22.1359054189737; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:03:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:03:09 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: adrian@olddog.co.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:03:14 -0000 It is minor issue, so I don't mind, or no objection, AB On 1/24/13, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi, > > One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling with > the > difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. In response to > a > previous comment from him (saying he did not see how an architecture could > be > written before the solution specs) I inserted the term "high-level". He now > says... > >> You mentioned "high-level" in "High-level architecture and framework". >> That's a step in the right direction. >> Personally, I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and >> framework" to "High-level architecture" > > Personally, I can't see that this would make any difference. I only like > "architecture and framework" because it kills the discussion of "Is this an > architecture document or is it a framework document?" So I could make his > change > without feeling too depressed. > > Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? > > Adrian > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From edc@google.com Thu Jan 24 11:10:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC3121F87C5 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stZgjx6s1Lxf for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qe0-f51.google.com (mail-qe0-f51.google.com [209.85.128.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B37E21F87A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qe0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 6so985390qea.38 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=QS0ceay6DlFefmJaDjfeko4MDCoZoCIwqyf9M7vbQKY=; b=IgBkizxyVVPLxPKijMgLQVHDdftOxfTodxYvaUJJUMd7d59w9KkVe1JGz0t1GTCtMt 5b9vi4h0HFbXCybz70UGj7VLGJjCRDEXurLgAiDRZIp4HJ7So/Uz9vIdYjw2bjtD3wbK SkXczxMqsHXsVWX1aR5uaI3ftGuVKBfPSAMjUHhczChtg/tmEhQPpMCjiwJf/5IELikX SD0D00Kjc4FUO9oqgKc+w4dvWsd9kdHXupix1Ftfe1cQxcDoZyaiMA00ukENvST2ku9k gfuMUloFwMQFVkbK5aWuDYW4CyfTaRVyO6aiinWquCQhjrDmrkGveew9ymWA5FDy4R48 I7tw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=QS0ceay6DlFefmJaDjfeko4MDCoZoCIwqyf9M7vbQKY=; b=Zq0KmzvIt6svqNi3/21lnW7bdqv7StmFpYZlrrt67UgCCPa+lUj6A3wpgTjdk4KntU abjvGQUg6akioNxIxuGWx1BCg6arAsYgt2798cYMJH4/l90K4DxPoXdN5es0aYFelfua b00uRwN5ovi9Yro5D5Sjc1AIDqdrCEHqlqiakJuNpn8/r2n4WXpFHmBlTmASnfwVSWrj dnE5tFGl9PCs2Fn0teQ+j0NNNrB8qpLoc9Gp2N0bxBrxs3O4GLo1cgGlT9xLgRSF/spj U1HBPtWNe9tncT3nkJcOsTbuPSRBPAyLfcqwULC5BqPDqL5B9ILRnTYhN6AsqtiwjRsO o1SQ== X-Received: by 10.49.131.67 with SMTP id ok3mr3716329qeb.42.1359054586045; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.49.2.74 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Edward Crabbe Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:04 -0800 Message-ID: To: Thomas Nadeau Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc06f0d4e7cc04d40d8d65 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnQ6CAq0D4SgBQova2o+65EWG5F0pklfDZSPjudgpKYT9if4j/mYMxDFV/Opipf299chjQQg88NjUT89CHxmwtYo8/QtwtiPVQRq4zyRCuXWO/X+KW3F5Kd4jPeUcmoaA/4eoyxrsbGpm5VSLBwb3agTGRgyOOQwvlECDxPO6ACUTNlhv0Rap0sfaja8pxuPKAi2h7P Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "i2rs@ietf.org" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:10:06 -0000 --047d7bdc06f0d4e7cc04d40d8d65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I could not agree with your agreeing with me more. ;) On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Thomas Nadeau wrote: > > > From: Edward Crabbe > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:28 PM > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia > Atlas , Adrian Farrel , " > i2rs@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models > > +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG > would be a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 > on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these > efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the > physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. > > I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature > to settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, > *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. > > > That is my (implied) point for supporting the Yang approach. > Specifically, to me it is about picking an approach (that seems to have a > lot of support) and just working with it until someone finds something > better to use. At this point we need to stop talking about which hammer > to pick, and instead pick one and build something. Call it experimental or > exploratory, but I would like us to start building some examples. We can > tear them down later, but its clear we won't get anywhere until we start > somewhere. > > --Tom > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > Juergen, >> > >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> > >> >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >> /js >> >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > --047d7bdc06f0d4e7cc04d40d8d65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I could not agree with your agreeing with me more. =A0;)


On Thu, J= an 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@juniper.net> wrote:


From: Edward Crabbe <edc@google.com>
Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:= 28 PM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.scho= enwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Adrian Farrel= <adrian@olddog= .co.uk>, "i2rs@ietf.org= " <i2rs@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for info= rmation models

+1 here. =A0If the relationships are hierarchical / acycli= c then YANG would be a good choice /but/ =A0we also have=A0draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 on t= he table, and potentially some related documents incoming; =A0if these efforts move forward (ie: mod= elling inter layer relationships and the physical plant) we may want to loo= k at other alternatives.=A0

I think this is an in= teresting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on a solut= ion given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's almos= t never too early to start experimenting. =A0

That is my (implied) point= for supporting the Yang approach. Specifically, to me it is about picking = an approach (that seems to have a lot of support) and just working with it = until someone finds something better to use. =A0 At this point we need to stop talking about w= hich hammer to pick, and instead pick one and build something. Call it expe= rimental or exploratory, but I would like us to start building some example= s. =A0We can tear them down later, but its clear we won't get anywhere until we start somewhere.=A0

--Tom


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenw= aelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Br= emen, Germany
Fax: =A0 +49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.= de/>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


--047d7bdc06f0d4e7cc04d40d8d65-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:10:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A96C21F87D5 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ULm1Lbys55W for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com (mail-pa0-f43.google.com [209.85.220.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E95F721F87B2 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id fb10so5676432pad.2 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ngDaXvUOCER91juVyRIpOtydF29SWchVZjnAoZqq2QU=; b=JGH/HU0PPvrotNMNIOEsaRNmd2mW2Zp52n0HEQjwWtqoACRzom6Q4DT1IXe2PwK1xE IKfeAt97LbowAhmUqGrp681NV9Jf5ErI6jZRrccNYuLsPWSxSrUc8quG+AuyOlWT1tSq EynGtu9UetHGo03ON6cIuuphKUHb8CqXcCGR1AQE+7VBrWFY8HkbVCtb7yvbqvU399pz aL+ey/Fb/wLh3rj0OUEakQT/ncdgiIv4UT/+ySbKvrmX9n9YOkhRcSvhClqb8l5ul3OO oZcgzkl6XUGJKl0Us5jCVHQCm4F9wGwLGDAVXlyW8E6Gxr6a1Ml+aD46OZ3zcok60sxb AGbw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.136.132 with SMTP id qa4mr7517300pbb.166.1359054597065; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:09:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:09:56 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Nikolay Milovanov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Alia Atlas , Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Edward Crabbe , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:10:06 -0000 >From your text I think I don't understand it. IMO, we don't need modeling software or hardware, just define architecture, because it is all about that. I think we will have one architecture and framework not many, so one IM AB On 1/24/13, Nikolay Milovanov wrote: > Hi, > > I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal is > architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane control > of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to model the > hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely there might be a > need to model the topology of the network or even the topology on different > network layers. > > Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and if I > understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the model. I > would like to make a bridge between the network architecture modeling and > software architecture modeling. > So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture > modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like UML) > and informal for example visio drawings. > From those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It based > on the idea that the topology consists of components and connectors and each > component has ports and each connector roles. Acme is also good for modeling > the properties of different components, connectors, ports and roles. I find > it good compared to other languages including UML because it allows > definition of families of systems and more importantly putting constrains on > them. For example connector X, with roles Y can't go in Component Z with > Port H. I find ACME quite nice for modeling systems and even system of > systems. The good part of it is that it also comes with a tool that is handy > for modeling. > > ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are good for > modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive systems. I am not > sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won't comment on that. > > Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on the > TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is based on > UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model network resources > and network services. Personally (as a network engineer) I find SID and UML > a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for example the developers from > my team find it nice and easy to understand). > > The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different stakeholders > that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from software community > and network engineers) and it might be good if the working group produces > views of the models that will allow different stakeholders to reason about > them. > > BR, > Nikolay Milovanov > New Bulgarian University > n.milovanov@gmail.com > > > On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: > >> +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would >> be a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 >> on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these >> efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the >> physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. >> >> I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to >> settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, >> *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder >> wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > Juergen, >> > >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> > >> >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >> /js >> >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > From tnadeau@juniper.net Thu Jan 24 11:15:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B5E21F87A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE=3.132] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WBjuddNr7X5S for ; 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Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:12:34 +0000 Received: from CH1PRD0511MB420.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.9.167]) by CH1PRD0511HT003.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.255.159.38]) with mapi id 14.16.0257.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:12:26 +0000 From: Thomas Nadeau To: Edward Crabbe Thread-Topic: [i2rs] format for information models Thread-Index: AQHN+bLV6Y3KBr0GQ0+aOQHBraurt5hYcZGAgAAy/gCAAAObAIAAA3aAgAAiH4D//63DAIAAXaUA//+tGgA= Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:12:26 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 x-originating-ip: [10.255.159.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64BE2CH1PRD0511MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%GOOGLE.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%JACOBS-UNIVERSITY.DE$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%GMAIL.COM$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%OLDDOG.CO.UK$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%12219$Dn%IETF.ORG$RO%2$TLS%5$FQDN%onpremiseedge-1018244.customer.frontbridge.com$TlsDn%o365mail.juniper.net Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "i2rs@ietf.org" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:15:14 -0000 --_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64BE2CH1PRD0511MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LoL! From: Edward Crabbe > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 2:09 PM To: Thomas Nadeau > Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder >, Alia Atlas >, Adrian Farrel >, "i2rs@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models I could not agree with your agreeing with me more. ;) On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Thomas Nadeau > wrote: From: Edward Crabbe > Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:28 PM To: Juergen Schoenwaelder >, Alia Atlas >, Adrian Farrel >, "i2rs@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would b= e a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 o= n the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these eff= orts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the physical= plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to = settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *bu= t* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. That is my (implied) point for supporting the Yang approach. Specifically, = to me it is about picking an approach (that seems to have a lot of support)= and just working with it until someone finds something better to use. At= this point we need to stop talking about which hammer to pick, and instead= pick one and build something. Call it experimental or exploratory, but I w= ould like us to start building some examples. We can tear them down later,= but its clear we won't get anywhere until we start somewhere. --Tom On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder > wrote: On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > Juergen, > > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are involved - then you need additional diagrams. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1= , 28759 Bremen, Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 _______________________________________________ i2rs mailing list i2rs@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs _______________________________________________ i2rs mailing list i2rs@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs --_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64BE2CH1PRD0511MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <954C0717677CC74E876F174448D83335@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LoL!

From: Edward Crabbe <edc@google.com>
Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 2:= 09 PM
To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@juniper.net>
Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-u= niversity.de>, Alia Atlas <a= katlas@gmail.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for info= rmation models

I could not agree with your agreeing with me more.  ;= )


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Thomas Nadeau = <tnadeau@junipe= r.net> wrote:


From: Edward Crabbe <edc@google.com>
Date: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:= 28 PM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.scho= enwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for info= rmation models

+1 here.  If the relationships are hierarchical /= acyclic then YANG would be a good choice /but/  we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use= -cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming;  if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer r= elationships and the physical plant) we may want to look at other alternati= ves. 

I think this is an in= teresting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on a solution = given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's almost never = too early to start experimenting.  

That is my (implied) point= for supporting the Yang approach. Specifically, to me it is about picking = an approach (that seems to have a lot of support) and just working with it = until someone finds something better to use.   At this point we need to stop talking about which hammer to= pick, and instead pick one and build something. Call it experimental or ex= ploratory, but I would like us to start building some examples.  We ca= n tear them down later, but its clear we won't get anywhere until we start somewhere. 

--Tom


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenw= aelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if
many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University = Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 B= remen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.d= e/>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


 --_000_F97700DB9B52414E8662360198681C8D22C64BE2CH1PRD0511MB420_-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:15:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBA321F87B2 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4NgEXHhc0GpW for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-da0-f42.google.com (mail-da0-f42.google.com [209.85.210.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4836C21F87A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-da0-f42.google.com with SMTP id z17so4424718dal.29 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=mWi+VPaYnSj49m5U+cZuttrPNLyM07fTwUVEo5XFDbk=; b=g++v/vfjKr/AtuT0arGnipRcB7lagap4AaOgZU3WQUj/pCKXEOubHDY/lxUPbBiQqN k8OYklDvaccB/vigSO6OBQ+P/OgJ2DrM48yX/ajTw2AyN7CCYq1W+IEg1eG9SnfqJTX4 P750YwOZF2qNfiF3antWhrHAcNJ2V33zaDjczHNGXfYRg4QGFien4603xtDD8bCBmfKN qJtpVEkZ20iXv9I9C9mgq13MxpBfpNlmTlehdGBKig949r58LFQ+TnlipGNUISqbkog1 N5WGmkEBMTRpvy/iChPmwtbyK5pcn9XF3K/pu4n1d0o13YIRTHK1T6j+2WeoW1bZj6DZ 2s5g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.76.97 with SMTP id j1mr7233831paw.70.1359054943068; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:15:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:15:42 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Edward Crabbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , i2rs@ietf.org, Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:15:43 -0000 On 1/24/13, Edward Crabbe wrote: > +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would > be a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 > on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these > efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the > physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. Thoes documents are still not done yet just thoughts written, so the condition is still not clear, yes they are on the table for work and changes, I don't think they are even agreed on, AB From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:35:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EDF11E8097 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:35:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WnO8HMVXo1H3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f178.google.com (mail-ob0-f178.google.com [209.85.214.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02D521F84CC for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id eh20so10029947obb.23 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=qUUqLncO3ir8y9g1r6hZOr3Kcj7lZjjBT21INwFoNIU=; b=b/pHMzFOAu+e6XWMAoG7iBE8wM6FXtmVQIg2BOO25hO+EEgtzs5hynTCUgn32eoACM tIcPH71lD4+aB61BbcyunahL4e21h32WgOIJbHWaHerPG25eTtEuW8eHc9bVSbfwb2tx y6UrWO8PxjDVK/3QMKv0yJZgiSEb1d10iAA6jr+kIrujFCPUSEZV/mDcwBKW+LZklYMO 1oif+utdvS7FGC+6I6tKu+E70DNdXVPGm6vqRwiVT58135oCi0yZG+HC++A1eTDddXSn edH9ToAKvK3V31VEsydB8d/ZiCeHYEdQmmtJNBmctP3KLA3nTLo5mdidPud5xm9jELEl Clfg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.6.169 with SMTP id c9mr2311537iga.24.1359056111353; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:35:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Abdussalam Baryun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f646717bf3da704d40de8e7 Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Edward Crabbe , Nikolay Milovanov , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:35:14 -0000 --e89a8f646717bf3da704d40de8e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The information models are to describe what needs to be modeled in terms of data that can be specified, read, notifications, etc. The architecture and framework are about the role and functionality of i2rs - so a bit different. Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Abdussalam Baryun < abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > From your text I think I don't understand it. IMO, we don't need > modeling software or hardware, just define architecture, because it is > all about that. I think we will have one architecture and framework > not many, so one IM > > AB > > On 1/24/13, Nikolay Milovanov wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal > is > > architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane > control > > of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to model the > > hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely there might > be a > > need to model the topology of the network or even the topology on > different > > network layers. > > > > Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and > if I > > understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the model. I > > would like to make a bridge between the network architecture modeling and > > software architecture modeling. > > So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture > > modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like > UML) > > and informal for example visio drawings. > > From those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It > based > > on the idea that the topology consists of components and connectors and > each > > component has ports and each connector roles. Acme is also good for > modeling > > the properties of different components, connectors, ports and roles. I > find > > it good compared to other languages including UML because it allows > > definition of families of systems and more importantly putting > constrains on > > them. For example connector X, with roles Y can't go in Component Z with > > Port H. I find ACME quite nice for modeling systems and even system of > > systems. The good part of it is that it also comes with a tool that is > handy > > for modeling. > > > > ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are good > for > > modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive systems. I am not > > sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won't comment on that. > > > > Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on the > > TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is based on > > UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model network > resources > > and network services. Personally (as a network engineer) I find SID and > UML > > a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for example the developers > from > > my team find it nice and easy to understand). > > > > The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different > stakeholders > > that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from software > community > > and network engineers) and it might be good if the working group produces > > views of the models that will allow different stakeholders to reason > about > > them. > > > > BR, > > Nikolay Milovanov > > New Bulgarian University > > n.milovanov@gmail.com > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: > > > >> +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG > would > >> be a good choice /but/ we also have > draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 > >> on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these > >> efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the > >> physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. > >> > >> I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature > to > >> settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, > >> *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder > >> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > >> > Juergen, > >> > > >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > >> > > >> > >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. > >> > >> /js > >> > >> -- > >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> i2rs mailing list > >> i2rs@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> i2rs mailing list > >> i2rs@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > > > > --e89a8f646717bf3da704d40de8e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The information models are to describe what needs to be modeled in terms of= data
that can be specified, read, notifications, etc.

The architecture and framework are about the role and functionalit= y of i2rs - so a bit=A0
different.

Alia

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Abdussalam Baryun &= lt;abdussal= ambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:
From your text I think I don't understan= d it. IMO, we don't need
modeling software or hardware, just define architecture, because it is
all about that. I think we will have one architecture and framework
not many, so one IM

AB

On 1/24/13, Nikolay Milovanov <= n.milovanov@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the= goal is
> architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane con= trol
> of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to model the=
> hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely there might= be a
> need to model the topology of the network or even the topology on diff= erent
> network layers.
>
> Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and= if I
> understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the model. = I
> would like to make a bridge between the network architecture modeling = and
> software architecture modeling.
> So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture > modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like= UML)
> and informal for example visio drawings.
> From those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It b= ased
> on the idea that the topology consists of components and connectors an= d each
> component has ports and each connector roles. Acme is also good for mo= deling
> the properties of different components, connectors, ports and roles. I= find
> it good compared to other languages including UML because it allows > definition of families of systems and more importantly putting constra= ins on
> them. For example connector X, with roles Y can't go in Component = Z with
> Port H. I find ACME quite nice for modeling systems and even system of=
> systems. The good part of it is that it also comes with a tool that is= handy
> for modeling.
>
> ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are go= od for
> modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive systems. I am = not
> sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won't comment on= that.
>
> Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on t= he
> TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is based= on
> UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model network res= ources
> and network services. Personally (as a network engineer) I find SID an= d UML
> a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for example the developer= s from
> my team find it nice and easy to understand).
>
> The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different stakeh= olders
> that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from software commu= nity
> and network engineers) and it might be good if the working group produ= ces
> views of the models =A0that will allow different stakeholders to reaso= n about
> them.
>
> BR,
> Nikolay Milovanov
> New Bulgarian University
> n.milovanov@gmail.com
>
>
> On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote:
>
>> +1 here. =A0If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then Y= ANG would
>> be a good choice /but/ =A0we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-u= se-cases-0
>> on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; =A0= if these
>> efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and = the
>> physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives.
>>
>> I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit = premature to
>> settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case= set,
>> *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder
>> <j.scho= enwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
>> > Juergen,
>> >
>> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> >
>>
>> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexit= y of
>> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
>> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a qu= ick
>> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right t= ool if
>> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are<= br> >> involved - then you need additional diagrams.
>>
>> /js
>>
>> --
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen= gGmbH
>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Ger= many
>> Fax: =A0 +49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/= >
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
>

--e89a8f646717bf3da704d40de8e7-- From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:37:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABAB11E8097 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:37:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfANTw3qoN+T for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:37:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F2711E809B for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id uo13so5448870obb.13 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:37:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=54m7Jl0D9cycjI9X21H5DMwzylFWt0PCnOL1OCWF9Lc=; b=Nk9XjqFaMci+Pp0nBCrQRoe/QpATI7/2jDk+ZFBblJc4m3ua4NFtgP5b7+/ZXTYpQ/ cyXq/3zsBpzHoRrI1IWlmoDj5NJtx4ofcFTMMf7ENzpKvOhQoKii/msCCj7PhVvgCy2k ljtSzemJndQAgn0l/ZOxwa6fvDNJrAlZSAohu8CsLNUjYkYLHrwfU9Lo/dNg2qBP+qKx XTIBCf1JDNb0KMBXkMXGNOLHDdqr4Yzmr/cCeH4mU4CLiFmNSnIClwJlugGmDb8+JLlH Huec3mTl/M2pODLz1okUIym/DcFK+yMwwhAts659CCQV/kZDXquTJ8sJf85bJlSnq3YH zMQw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.191.164 with SMTP id gz4mr2440159igc.24.1359056222653; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:37:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:37:02 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Abdussalam Baryun Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93405c7618b4e04d40def03 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, Juergen Schoenwaelder , Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:37:08 -0000 --14dae93405c7618b4e04d40def03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 AB, What belongs in the IMs will be driven by the use-cases. I believe we're discussing how to document them. Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Abdussalam Baryun < abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1/24/13, Alia Atlas wrote: > > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > > I would want that we do new model for the i2rs, because these models > are different only if they have different purposes, and the i2rs has > different purposes I think. > > I usually don't start with the IM or DM before the functions. I need > to understand the functions then the information. So the question that > I need to answer first is; > > What functions of I2RS do you have necessary or optional? > after answering this I will be able to find my best information model. > > I hope this input has a good point, if not please ignore it, it was my > thoughts to answer, > > AB > --14dae93405c7618b4e04d40def03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AB,

What belongs in the IMs will be driven by the use-ca= ses. =A0I believe we're
discussing how to document them. =A0<= /div>

Alia

On Thu, Jan= 24, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.c= om> wrote:
On 1/24/13, Alia Atlas <= ;akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?

I would want that we do new model for the i2rs, because these models<= br> are different only if they have different purposes, and the i2rs has
different purposes I think.

I usually don't start with the IM or DM before the functions. I need to understand the functions then the information. So the question that
I need to answer first is;

What functions of I2RS do you have necessary or optional?
after answering this I will be able to find my best information model.

I hope this input has a good point, if not please ignore it, it was my
thoughts to answer,

AB

--14dae93405c7618b4e04d40def03-- From akatlas@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 11:42:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D6C21F84ED for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:42:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id thi7Tp9GRvqB for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oa0-f42.google.com (mail-oa0-f42.google.com [209.85.219.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F0521F84E4 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id j1so10632142oag.29 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=/p9LnjHS0FCy2dDugv4RolM5pSyUNl1EvFy0DteBDjM=; b=M7OSl50uD+mgsXmUbeyXOtFK8tMZoiUFv+GdCCKoKFy6C6/sbL0EhL9g9UXifA1G8o PnAVFSXx175rPaTLXK4+k11nPK3ziUzz4rBPT3tBdaNWOurA4iOMoxtys5367FHg1dx3 qnhl4QRNbrXAuEywWt1wDVMp3TtWZ020N3ISOFcPb0F0s68FPXl7pjz1KDL2BkbmMI/d Z8tEk8EO/S5euO1DI8n8Yzfc7gumOFmnsfZ+euAhLcDir4PduX7YS2bwLUIjLtQ1LuM7 rBFjDmvBlymsfKDcJW3nZs2s8pThth0lFH15V6L0dXxD+l+YF6pNmoyg6BLfViDbunqX 1vng== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.191.164 with SMTP id gz4mr2452755igc.24.1359056524209; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:42:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Nikolay Milovanov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93405c75aecb004d40e0107 Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Edward Crabbe , i2rs@ietf.org, Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:42:06 -0000 --14dae93405c75aecb004d40e0107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Nikolay, I wouldn't describe the difference between an IM and a DM as simply formality, but also details and potentially abstraction layer. It sounds like you have a few different ideas from YANG and UML. Can you write-up something giving more insight into the pros & cons of each? And pointers to them so we can learn more independently. I don't think we are trying for behavior modeling here. Nor do I think we're looking for excessive formality, but something that can be less ambiguously understood and easily turned into a data-model (or derived from one as has been suggested) and is consistent would be good. Alia On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Nikolay Milovanov wrote: > Hi, > > I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal is > architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane control > of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to model the > hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely there might be a > need to model the topology of the network or even the topology on different > network layers. > > Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and if > I understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the model. I > would like to make a bridge between the network architecture modeling and > software architecture modeling. > So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture > modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like UML) > and informal for example visio drawings. > From those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It based > on the idea that the topology consists of components and connectors and > each component has ports and each connector roles. Acme is also good for > modeling the properties of different components, connectors, ports and > roles. I find it good compared to other languages including UML because it > allows definition of families of systems and more importantly putting > constrains on them. For example connector X, with roles Y can't go in > Component Z with Port H. I find ACME quite nice for modeling systems and > even system of systems. The good part of it is that it also comes with a > tool that is handy for modeling. > > ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are good > for modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive systems. I am > not sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won't comment on > that. > > Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on the > TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is based on > UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model network > resources and network services. Personally (as a network engineer) I find > SID and UML a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for example the > developers from my team find it nice and easy to understand). > > The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different > stakeholders that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from > software community and network engineers) and it might be good if the > working group produces views of the models that will allow different > stakeholders to reason about them. > > BR, > Nikolay Milovanov > New Bulgarian University > n.milovanov@gmail.com > > > On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: > > +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG would > be a good choice /but/ we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 > on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if these > efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the > physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. > > I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to > settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, > *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > Juergen, >> > >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> > >> >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >> /js >> >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > > > --14dae93405c75aecb004d40e0107 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nikolay,

I wouldn't describe the difference betwe= en an IM and a DM as simply formality, but also details and potentially
abstraction layer.

It sounds like you have = a few different ideas from YANG and UML. =A0Can you write-up something givi= ng more
insight into the pros & cons of each? =A0And pointers to them so w= e can learn more independently.

I don't think = we are trying for behavior modeling here. =A0Nor do I think we're looki= ng for excessive formality,
but something that can be less ambiguously understood and easily turne= d into a data-model (or derived from
one as has been suggested) a= nd is consistent would be good.

Alia

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Nikolay Milovanov <n.milovanov@gmail.= com> wrote:
Hi,=A0

I also agree = with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal is architect= ure of a framework for application based forwarding plane control of routin= g systems. In that sense there will be some work to model the hierarchical = structure of the devices but also most likely there might be a need to mode= l the topology of the network or even the topology on different network lay= ers.=A0

Obviously there is a difference between data and inform= ation model and if I understood correctly the difference is in the formalit= y of the model. I would like to make a bridge between the network architect= ure modeling and software architecture modeling.=A0
So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture m= odeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like UML) = and informal for example visio drawings.=A0
From those ACME might= be interesting for topology based modeling. It based on the idea that the = topology consists of components and connectors and each component has ports= and each connector roles. Acme is also good for modeling the properties of= different components, connectors, ports and roles. I find it good compared= to other languages including UML because it allows definition of families = of systems and more importantly putting constrains on them. For example con= nector X, with roles Y can't go in Component Z with Port H. I find ACME= quite nice for modeling systems and even system of systems. The good part = of it is that it also comes with a tool that is handy for modeling.=A0

ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languag= es) that are good for modeling the behavior of the certain software intensi= ve systems. I am not sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won&= #39;t comment on that.=A0

Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based mode= ling based on the TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry= . It is based on UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model= network resources and network services. Personally (as a network engineer)= I find SID and UML a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for exampl= e the developers from my team find it nice and easy to understand).=A0

The last sentence reminds me also that there might be d= ifferent stakeholders that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers fr= om software community and network engineers) and it might be good if the wo= rking group produces views of the models =A0that will allow different stake= holders to reason about them.=A0

BR,=A0
Nikolay Milovanov=A0
New Bulgarian University=A0
n.milovanov@g= mail.com=A0


On = Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote:

+1 here. =A0If the relationships are hier= archical / acyclic then YANG would be a good choice /but/ =A0we also have= =A0draft-amante-irs-topolo= gy-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some related documents incomin= g; =A0if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationship= s and the physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives.=A0

I think this is an interesting= discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on a solution given= the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's almost never t= oo early to start experimenting. =A0


On Thu,= Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.scho= enwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -050= 0, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity o= f
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Br= emen, Germany
Fax: =A0 +49 421 200 3103 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <http://www.jacobs-university.= de/>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


--14dae93405c75aecb004d40e0107-- From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 12:14:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6172321F868E for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:14:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AlU0nnkRQMyU for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f48.google.com (mail-pb0-f48.google.com [209.85.160.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB52821F84C6 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f48.google.com with SMTP id wy12so4280071pbc.21 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=M4mPlszcOeLXPMTk5Bj4yqD/LFuiId42bjlmUoCto0s=; b=CZ7sqzOxfvvdAR5fyxK3YRVvW+RdJsGs8MA9Ciiov9acOpvk9LlA2krrhFm1wPXt/V WXeSaByMNfXz2FJsPPZFHLhN+q9Dbs6quWMYg4sxXBAEkAIB+WSKi+wVo89www2iJHIb Ntmn0cVzzvmlgln2YvjVH+DOL3O1zIBz059t+Bw1PjPRVawVUEK46046kjBgFgzK4yFk ntD9y861+eS/sCEQTYYJW8R9U4qcSnY+5VpwLz8Oo4deNzcC14Exz2RcJAq5Whfo11DL UppdueD/lgUnJ1LUB85dYKaA1gLjC0OPNxh56sPrV8wkFCBmkTit5FqrznY7Z38Q4kej Hhxg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.227.33 with SMTP id rx1mr8353904pbc.67.1359058491796; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:14:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:14:51 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, Juergen Schoenwaelder , Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:14:52 -0000 Hi Alia, I think driven not only the use case, but also the i2rs functions AB On 1/24/13, Alia Atlas wrote: > AB, > > What belongs in the IMs will be driven by the use-cases. I believe we're > discussing how to document them. > > Alia > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Abdussalam Baryun < > abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 1/24/13, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> >> I would want that we do new model for the i2rs, because these models >> are different only if they have different purposes, and the i2rs has >> different purposes I think. >> >> I usually don't start with the IM or DM before the functions. I need >> to understand the functions then the information. So the question that >> I need to answer first is; >> >> What functions of I2RS do you have necessary or optional? >> after answering this I will be able to find my best information model. >> >> I hope this input has a good point, if not please ignore it, it was my >> thoughts to answer, >> >> AB >> > From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 12:28:26 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEA411E80A3 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:28:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-z6orD5YFlC for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CFB111E809B for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id uo1so5635420pbc.31 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:28:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=SWCgNT3F0o3emJOhIrGySdYju2hyf+U7R3n9fczaVM0=; b=CmZrra61cfOkhZLSvqPPZ3z2chftU/ZkE5YOLBiQeo6rwaC9d4fvZiT+Qio8fyC0uQ CTldcmA/f0/fZVaXsotRLCZTDOdnDo6kz9Mxk6m7ITgfDWfp7/rMPSBptxQQSDe4Axdv S/F6vAk0hCiSvZVLWZF0tgN3MQUfiSLHyjnPWeufZZVYUhvUq+8kC5J/RbQhALkB/Gf5 xJXgzJFxkYDnn7a1zCz6pjdNKa93JTe0iQY9BL7gFPsv8yqNmNQRYHtd+50XqotQEaz+ Xz0+DWv1XsH1fzdT44110PuOSguoJSszzT3TR+vVxUIYvGlk+//pQX31itW9vdi0qAtf /IhA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.222.196 with SMTP id qo4mr8151570pbc.140.1359059305371; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:28:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:28:25 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Alia Atlas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Adrian Farrel , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Edward Crabbe , Nikolay Milovanov , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: [i2rs] Structure for I2RS communication information models (was Re: format for information models) X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:28:26 -0000 Hi Ali, IMHO, I will amend to my understandning The information models are to describe what needs to be modeled in terms of data that can be specified by i2rs procedures, read by the i2rs client and servers, notifications of the i2rs. Thoes are all related to the i2rs The i2rs architecture and framework are about the interactions, service, role and functions i2rs. The information model can be designed after completing that, because it is serving that purpose. I never compare between archeticture model and IM, they are both for i2rs,because IM is language of communication within the i2rs architecture model, AB On 1/24/13, Alia Atlas wrote: > The information models are to describe what needs to be modeled in terms of > data > that can be specified, read, notifications, etc. > > The architecture and framework are about the role and functionality of i2rs > - so a bit > different. > > Alia > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Abdussalam Baryun < > abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote: > >> From your text I think I don't understand it. IMO, we don't need >> modeling software or hardware, just define architecture, because it is >> all about that. I think we will have one architecture and framework >> not many, so one IM >> >> AB >> >> On 1/24/13, Nikolay Milovanov wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal >> is >> > architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane >> control >> > of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to model the >> > hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely there might >> be a >> > need to model the topology of the network or even the topology on >> different >> > network layers. >> > >> > Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and >> if I >> > understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the model. I >> > would like to make a bridge between the network architecture modeling >> > and >> > software architecture modeling. >> > So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture >> > modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like >> UML) >> > and informal for example visio drawings. >> > From those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It >> based >> > on the idea that the topology consists of components and connectors and >> each >> > component has ports and each connector roles. Acme is also good for >> modeling >> > the properties of different components, connectors, ports and roles. I >> find >> > it good compared to other languages including UML because it allows >> > definition of families of systems and more importantly putting >> constrains on >> > them. For example connector X, with roles Y can't go in Component Z >> > with >> > Port H. I find ACME quite nice for modeling systems and even system of >> > systems. The good part of it is that it also comes with a tool that is >> handy >> > for modeling. >> > >> > ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are >> > good >> for >> > modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive systems. I am >> > not >> > sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so won't comment on >> > that. >> > >> > Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on >> > the >> > TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is based >> > on >> > UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model network >> resources >> > and network services. Personally (as a network engineer) I find SID and >> UML >> > a bit horrible but this is personal opinion (for example the developers >> from >> > my team find it nice and easy to understand). >> > >> > The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different >> stakeholders >> > that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from software >> community >> > and network engineers) and it might be good if the working group >> > produces >> > views of the models that will allow different stakeholders to reason >> about >> > them. >> > >> > BR, >> > Nikolay Milovanov >> > New Bulgarian University >> > n.milovanov@gmail.com >> > >> > >> > On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: >> > >> >> +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG >> would >> >> be a good choice /but/ we also have >> draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 >> >> on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; if >> >> these >> >> efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer relationships and the >> >> physical plant) we may want to look at other alternatives. >> >> >> >> I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit >> >> premature >> to >> >> settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the use case >> >> set, >> >> *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder >> >> wrote: >> >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> >> > Juergen, >> >> > >> >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> >> > >> >> >> >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >> >> >> /js >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> i2rs mailing list >> >> i2rs@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> i2rs mailing list >> >> i2rs@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >> > >> > >> > From n.milovanov@gmail.com Thu Jan 24 15:01:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6AB21F853D for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:01:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fw27oRqh8wp for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-bk0-f53.google.com (mail-bk0-f53.google.com [209.85.214.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEBF21F84D7 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-bk0-f53.google.com with SMTP id j10so593988bkw.12 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:01:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date :cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=R6IyVifY9K07DeEfw0Kj/fDecTCYVsga6D2YOj6Uxec=; b=wzKjYnbV4r9w5lhY4ba1qaFJkCz1SknwwZmRUDlUhdKnyF0Pdj5Obj19qGEo0gXj5y 5YEjPhtfIZkK1T9lhbCel9W6C37rl4F2ooClsNAcF/pfQDnuZTAfw653R+rjud2LriZr DZ75tZG2/RmV0VgY7XCN+ihqtLcvFqNrSVjwGZkuGvdkCZX+n4vFiGlfQhb5x5IWcL45 9TgLFVbMxn+/gmnrF+wRwt9atwvMBb+by+HAanV0X0lBS1kVzjEdnSfDWFZcmnMLRPIP Td1oip/SebFzfteeDX8DTgVCOi+Ij2/K+UxNruWCkIE0hVAQBRx2wuMK1iKtpBppQ1Tf pvHA== X-Received: by 10.204.148.145 with SMTP id p17mr1303987bkv.136.1359068506490; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.2.34] ([93.155.231.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ho6sm2776411bkc.0.2013.01.24.15.01.41 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:01:44 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E8E50F76-C0A2-42A7-BBF4-F0C3C1734795" From: Nikolay Milovanov In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:02:17 +0200 Message-Id: <16EC14A1-7738-4892-925E-0AEB06C19D1B@gmail.com> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> To: Alia Atlas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:01:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E8E50F76-C0A2-42A7-BBF4-F0C3C1734795 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Alia,=20 Regarding the abstraction and formality. I guess when somebody defines = an architecture of something in general one of the difficulties is to = determine the level of abstraction. Regarding formality it is good but = comes on a price. Usually that price is complexity.=20 In my initial post I have used incorrectly the term AML. It is better to = change it with Architecture Description Languages (ADLs). So some time = ago I was exposed to an ADL called ACME.=20 ACME is a language and a also a tool defined by prof. David Garlan (and = by his Phd students) from CMU. I guess this is one of the initial = publications regarding ACME. = http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/able/ftp/acme-fcbs/acme-fcbs.pdf So ACME allows you to define a component and connector models of = different systems. It was done for defining software architecture not = for defining network architecture. However one of the good definitions = of Software Architecture is "A software architecture of computing system = is the set of structures needed to reason about the system, which = comprise elements, relationships among them and properties of both" = [*Documenting Software Architecture: Views and Beyond, 2nd Ed. Clements = et al. 2010.] To me this sounds like a network isn't it...=20 As a visiting faculty member in CMU I spent some months with David's = group and start wondering where are the differences between Network and = Software Architecture and can't we (I still consider myself more of a = network engineer than a software one) use also languages as ACME. What I = found in particular interesting is the fact that ADLs allows you to = create a style. A good definition of a style is "An architectural style = is a coordinated set of architectural constraints that restricts the = roles/features of architectural elements and the allowed relationships = among those elements within any architecture that conforms to that = style." =20 This sounds fancy but in fact an architectural style in software is the = same as in building architecture. When you see certain building somehow = in your mind comes that this follows that style. For example when you = see Guggenheim museum in New york and some other building of Frank Lloyd = Wright you will instantly recognize the style.=20 As a good reading on those I consider Roy T. Fielding dissertation. = http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/software_arch.htm =20 In ACME the style is expressed as a family. The family allows you to = instantiate a number of similar systems that comply to the style e.g = comply with constrains. So having those in my head and reading the initial discussions on i2rs I = wondered won't something like this be useful also here. For example we = might put some models in the framework but also to define certain = constrains on how it should be used and implemented.=20 Just to finish for ACME I did a relatively simple model of a 3 host = network (2 end hosts and a router). To highlight the approach I also = defined a simple family. My system complies to my family.=20 I have attached the sources. The constraints are expressed as rules in = IPfamily. Attached is also a screenshot from ACME. =20 Finally as PROS: I would say that it is formal. It allows integration between the = information model and constraints. It is good for dynamic perspective of = the systems (e.g systems or network that are up and running). In = particular I liked the idea behind the styles and constraints. =20 As a CONS: Information/data model relates more to a static perspective/view of the = system/network and a YANG or UML class diagram will be better. Also from = UML or YANG might be easier to generate an exact data model. An example = is TM-FORUM SID model used widely in OSS/BSS industry = [http://www.tmforum.org/InformationFramework/1684/home.html].=20 I would say that it is definitely not popular among networking society.=20= It is not that easy to get used to it and get it working. In fact = software society is using much more UML which is considered as = semi-formal.=20 However I guess despite that ACME is not common for regular developers = but it has influenced many scientists including people such a Roy = Fiedling and the people that has invented UML.=20 Nikolay =20 PS: Congrats for the i2rs working group initiation! =20 On Jan 24, 2013, at 9:42 PM, Alia Atlas wrote: > Hi Nikolay, >=20 > I wouldn't describe the difference between an IM and a DM as simply = formality, but also details and potentially > abstraction layer. >=20 > It sounds like you have a few different ideas from YANG and UML. Can = you write-up something giving more > insight into the pros & cons of each? And pointers to them so we can = learn more independently. >=20 > I don't think we are trying for behavior modeling here. Nor do I = think we're looking for excessive formality, > but something that can be less ambiguously understood and easily = turned into a data-model (or derived from > one as has been suggested) and is consistent would be good. >=20 > Alia >=20 > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Nikolay Milovanov = wrote: > Hi,=20 >=20 > I also agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the = goal is architecture of a framework for application based forwarding = plane control of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work = to model the hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely = there might be a need to model the topology of the network or even the = topology on different network layers.=20 >=20 > Obviously there is a difference between data and information model and = if I understood correctly the difference is in the formality of the = model. I would like to make a bridge between the network architecture = modeling and software architecture modeling.=20 > So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal architecture = modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), semi-formal (Like = UML) and informal for example visio drawings.=20 > =46rom those ACME might be interesting for topology based modeling. It = based on the idea that the topology consists of components and = connectors and each component has ports and each connector roles. Acme = is also good for modeling the properties of different components, = connectors, ports and roles. I find it good compared to other languages = including UML because it allows definition of families of systems and = more importantly putting constrains on them. For example connector X, = with roles Y can't go in Component Z with Port H. I find ACME quite nice = for modeling systems and even system of systems. The good part of it is = that it also comes with a tool that is handy for modeling.=20 >=20 > ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling Languages) that are = good for modeling the behavior of the certain software intensive = systems. I am not sure is behavior modeling among the i2rs goals so = won't comment on that.=20 >=20 > Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based modeling based on = the TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom industry. It is = based on UML class diagrams and already contains classes that model = network resources and network services. Personally (as a network = engineer) I find SID and UML a bit horrible but this is personal opinion = (for example the developers from my team find it nice and easy to = understand).=20 >=20 > The last sentence reminds me also that there might be different = stakeholders that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g engineers from = software community and network engineers) and it might be good if the = working group produces views of the models that will allow different = stakeholders to reason about them.=20 >=20 > BR,=20 > Nikolay Milovanov=20 > New Bulgarian University=20 > n.milovanov@gmail.com=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe wrote: >=20 >> +1 here. If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG = would be a good choice /but/ we also have = draft-amante-irs-topology-use-cases-0 on the table, and potentially some = related documents incoming; if these efforts move forward (ie: = modelling inter layer relationships and the physical plant) we may want = to look at other alternatives.=20 >>=20 >> I think this is an interesting discussion to have; it's a bit = premature to settle on a solution given the current uncertainty in the = use case set, *but* it's almost never too early to start experimenting. =20= >>=20 >>=20 >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder = wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> > Juergen, >> > >> > What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> > >>=20 >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity = of >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >>=20 >> /js >>=20 >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_E8E50F76-C0A2-42A7-BBF4-F0C3C1734795 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9" --Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi = Alia, 

Regarding the abstraction and formality. = I guess when somebody defines an architecture of something in general = one of the difficulties is to determine the level of abstraction. = Regarding formality it is good but comes on a price. Usually that price = is complexity. 

In my initial post I have = used incorrectly the term AML. It is better to change it = with Architecture Description Languages (ADLs). So some time ago I = was exposed to an ADL called ACME. 
ACME is a language = and a also a tool defined by prof. David Garlan (and by his Phd = students) from CMU. I guess this is one of the initial publications = regarding ACME. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/able/ftp/acme-fcbs/acme-fcbs.pdf=

So ACME allows you to define a component = and connector models of different systems.  It was done for = defining software architecture not for defining network architecture. = However one of the good definitions of Software Architecture is "A = software architecture of computing system is the set = of structures needed to reason about the system, which = comprise elements, relationships among them and = properties of both" [*Documenting Software Architecture: Views and = Beyond, 2nd Ed. Clements et al. 2010.] To me this sounds like a network = isn't it... 

As a visiting faculty member = in CMU I spent some months with David's group and start wondering where = are the differences between Network and Software Architecture and can't = we (I still consider myself more of a network engineer than a software = one) use also languages as ACME. What I found in particular interesting = is the fact that  ADLs allows you to create a style. A good = definition of a style is "An architectural style is a = coordinated set of=20 architectural constraints that restricts the roles/features of=20 architectural elements and the allowed relationships among those=20 elements within any architecture that conforms to that = style."  

This sounds fancy but in = fact an architectural style in software is the same as in building = architecture. When you see certain building somehow in your mind comes = that this follows that style. For example when you see Guggenheim museum = in New york and some other building of Frank Lloyd Wright you will = instantly recognize the style. 
As a good reading on = those I consider Roy T. Fielding dissertation. http://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/software_arch.htm  






= --Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=ipv4OnlyNetwork.acme Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ipv4OnlyNetwork.acme" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit import families/IPfamily.acme; System ipv4Network : IPfamily = new IPfamily extended with { Component Host0 : Host = new Host extended with { Port ipPortA = { Property aName = "eth0"; Property ipv4Forwarding = true; Property IPv4Address = "87.111.112.2/24"; } Port ipv4TCPSocket : ipv4Socket = new ipv4Socket extended with { Property ipv4Address = "87.111.112.2/24"; Property upperLayerPort = "1521"; Property protocol = "TCP"; } Property hostName = "A"; Property ipv4StackEnabled = true; Property ipv6StackEnabled = false; Property ipv4Route0 : string = "0.0.0.0/0 87.111.112.1"; } Component Router0 : Router = new Router extended with { Port ipPortA = { Property aName = "E0/0"; Property IPv4Address = "87.111.112.1/24"; Property ipv4Forwarding = true; } Port ipPortB = { Property aName = "E0/1"; Property IPv4Address = "87.111.113.1/24"; Property ipv4Forwarding = true; } Property hostName = "R1"; Property ipv4Forwarding = true; Property ipv4StackEnabled = true; Property ipv6Forwarding = false; Property ipv6StackEnabled = false; Property ipv4Route0 : string = "87.111.113.0/24 ipPortB"; Property ipv4Route1 : string = "87.111.112.0/24 ipPortA"; } Component Host1 : Host = new Host extended with { Port ipPortA = { Property aName = "eth0"; Property IPv4Address = "87.111.113.2/24"; Property ipv4Forwarding = true; } Port ipv4TCPSocket : ipv4Socket = new ipv4Socket extended with { Property ipv4Address = "87.111.113.2/24"; Property upperLayerPort = "1521"; Property protocol = "TCP"; } Property hostName = "B"; Property ipv4StackEnabled = true; Property ipv6StackEnabled = false; Property ipv4Route0 : string = "0.0.0.0/0 87.111.113.1"; } Connector p2pLink0 : ipP2pLink = new ipP2pLink extended with { Role pointA = { } Role pointB = { } Property linkName = "HostA-R1"; } Connector p2pLink1 : ipP2pLink = new ipP2pLink extended with { Role pointA = { } Role pointB = { } Property linkName = "R1-HostB"; } Connector tcpLink : ipv4SocketLink = new ipv4SocketLink extended with { Role source = { } Role receiver = { } } Attachment Host0.ipPortA to p2pLink0.pointA; Attachment Router0.ipPortA to p2pLink0.pointB; Attachment Router0.ipPortB to p2pLink1.pointA; Attachment Host1.ipPortA to p2pLink1.pointB; Attachment Host0.ipv4TCPSocket to ipv4SocketLink.source; Attachment Host1.ipv4TCPSocket to ipv4SocketLink.receiver; } --Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
--Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=IPfamily.acme Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="IPfamily.acme" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Family IPfamily = { Port Type ethernetPortType extends PortType with { Property mediaType : string = "Ethernet"; rule rule1 = invariant forall a in self.ATTACHEDROLES | declaresType(a, ethernetLinkRoleType); } Port Type Socket extends PortType with { Property upperLayerPort : int; Property protocol : string; } Port Type ipEthernetPortType extends PortType with { Property aName : string; Property ipv4Forwarding : boolean; Property ipv6Forwarding : boolean; Property IPv6Address : string; Property IPv4Address : string; rule rule1 = invariant forall a in self.ATTACHEDROLES | declaresType(a, ipEthernetLinkRoleType); } Port Type ipv4Socket extends Socket with { Property ipv4Address : string; Property mediaType : string = "IPv4"; } Port Type ipv6Socket extends Socket with { Property ipv6Address : string; Property mediaType : string = "IPv6"; } Port Type PortType = { Property aName : string; Property mediaType : string; rule portHasAttachment = invariant size(self.ATTACHEDROLES) >= 1 OR (size(self.ATTACHEDROLES) == 0 AND attachedOrBound(self)); } Component Type Host = { Port ipPortA : ipEthernetPortType = new ipEthernetPortType extended with { } Property hostName : string; Property ipv4StackEnabled : boolean; Property ipv6StackEnabled : boolean; rule rule0 = invariant size(self.PORTS) > 0 << label : string = "Host has to have at least one port"; errMsg : string = "Hosts should have at least one port"; >> ; } Component Type Router extends Host with { Port ipPortB : ipEthernetPortType = new ipEthernetPortType extended with { } Property ipv6Forwarding : boolean; Property ipv4Forwarding : boolean; } Role Type ipv4SocketRole = { Property mediaType : string = "IPv4"; rule rule0 = invariant forall a in self.ATTACHEDPORTS | declaresType(a, ipv4Socket); } Role Type ipEthernetLinkRoleType extends ethernetLinkRoleType with { rule rule0 = invariant forall a in self.ATTACHEDPORTS | declaresType(a, ipEthernetPortType); } Role Type ipv6SocketRole = { Property protocol : string = "TCP"; rule rule0 = invariant forall a in self.ATTACHEDPORTS | declaresType(a, ipv6Socket); } Role Type LinkRoleType = { Property mediaType : string; Property linkName : string; rule roleHasAttachment = invariant size(self.ATTACHEDPORTS) >= 1 OR (size(self.ATTACHEDPORTS) == 0 AND attachedOrBound(self)); } Role Type ethernetLinkRoleType extends LinkRoleType with { Property mediaType : string = "Ethernet"; rule rule0 = invariant forall a in self.ATTACHEDPORTS | declaresType(a, ethernetPortType); } Connector Type ipv4SocketLink = { Role source : ipv4SocketRole = new ipv4SocketRole extended with { } Role receiver : ipv4SocketRole = new ipv4SocketRole extended with { } Property linkName : string; rule hasTwoRoles = invariant size(self.ROLES) >= 2; rule rule1 = invariant forall e in self.ROLES | declaresType(e, ipv4SocketRole); } Connector Type ipv6SocketLink = { Role source : ipv6SocketRole = new ipv6SocketRole extended with { } Role receiver : ipv6SocketRole = new ipv6SocketRole extended with { } Property linkName : string; rule hasTwoRoles = invariant size(self.ROLES) >= 2; rule rule1 = invariant forall e in self.ROLES | declaresType(e, ipv6SocketRole); } Connector Type ipP2mpLink = { Role source : ipEthernetLinkRoleType = new ipEthernetLinkRoleType extended with { } Role receiver : ipEthernetLinkRoleType = new ipEthernetLinkRoleType extended with { } Property linkName : string; rule hasTwoRoles = invariant size(self.ROLES) >= 2; rule rule1 = invariant forall e in self.ROLES | declaresType(e, ipEthernetLinkRoleType); } Connector Type ipP2pLink = { Role pointA : ipEthernetLinkRoleType = new ipEthernetLinkRoleType extended with { } Role pointB : ipEthernetLinkRoleType = new ipEthernetLinkRoleType extended with { } Property linkName : string; rule hasTwoRoles = invariant size(self.ROLES) == 2 << label : string = "point2point Links can have exactly two rolws"; errMsg : string = "point2point Links can have exactly two rolws"; >>; rule rule1 = invariant forall e in self.ROLES | declaresType(e, ipEthernetLinkRoleType) << label : string = "ipEthernet Links can have only IP Ethernet roles"; errMsg : string = "ipEthernet Links can have only IP Ethernet roles"; >>; } } --Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
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I would say that it is definitely not popular among networking = society. 
It is not that easy to get used to it and get = it working. In fact software society is using much more UML which is = considered as semi-formal. 
However I guess despite that =  ACME  is not common for regular developers but it has = influenced many scientists including people such a Roy Fiedling and the = people that has invented = UML. 


Nikolay =   

PS: Congrats for the i2rs =  working group initiation! =  

On Jan 24, 2013, at 9:42 PM, = Alia Atlas wrote:

Hi Nikolay,

I wouldn't describe the = difference between an IM and a DM as simply formality, but also details = and potentially
abstraction layer.

It = sounds like you have a few different ideas from YANG and UML.  Can = you write-up something giving more
insight into the pros & cons of each?  And pointers to = them so we can learn more independently.

I = don't think we are trying for behavior modeling here.  Nor do I = think we're looking for excessive formality,
but something that can be less ambiguously understood and easily = turned into a data-model (or derived from
one as has been = suggested) and is consistent would be = good.

Alia

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Nikolay Milovanov <n.milovanov@gmail.com> = wrote:
Hi, 

I also = agree with Edward's position. If I understood correctly the goal is = architecture of a framework for application based forwarding plane = control of routing systems. In that sense there will be some work to = model the hierarchical structure of the devices but also most likely = there might be a need to model the topology of the network or even the = topology on different network layers. 

Obviously there is a difference between data and = information model and if I understood correctly the difference is in the = formality of the model. I would like to make a bridge between the = network architecture modeling and software architecture = modeling. 
So in Software Architecture there could be quite formal = architecture modeling languages (for example ACME, ALLOY,WRIGHT), = semi-formal (Like UML) and informal for example visio = drawings. 
=46rom those ACME might be interesting for = topology based modeling. It based on the idea that the topology consists = of components and connectors and each component has ports and each = connector roles. Acme is also good for modeling the properties of = different components, connectors, ports and roles. I find it good = compared to other languages including UML because it allows definition = of families of systems and more importantly putting constrains on them. = For example connector X, with roles Y can't go in Component Z with Port = H. I find ACME quite nice for modeling systems and even system of = systems. The good part of it is that it also comes with a tool that is = handy for modeling. 

ALLOW and WRIGHT are AMLs(Architecture Modeling = Languages) that are good for modeling the behavior of the certain = software intensive systems. I am not sure is behavior modeling among the = i2rs goals so won't comment on that. 

Regarding UML what about the typical OSS/BSS based = modeling based on the TMForm SID model? SID is quite common in telecom = industry. It is based on UML class diagrams and already contains classes = that model network resources and network services. Personally (as a = network engineer) I find SID and UML a bit horrible but this is personal = opinion (for example the developers from my team find it nice and easy = to understand). 

The last sentence reminds me also that there might = be different stakeholders that will benefit from i2rs results (e.g = engineers from software community and network engineers) and it might be = good if the working group produces views of the models  that will = allow different stakeholders to reason about them. 

BR, 
Nikolay Milovanov 
New Bulgarian = University 


On= Jan 24, 2013, at 8:28 PM, Edward Crabbe = wrote:

+1 = here.  If the relationships are hierarchical / acyclic then YANG = would be a good choice /but/  we also have draft-amante-irs-topology-use-c= ases-0 on the table, and potentially some related documents incoming; =  if these efforts move forward (ie: modelling inter layer = relationships and the physical plant) we may want to look at other = alternatives. 

I think this is an = interesting discussion to have; it's a bit premature to settle on a = solution given the current uncertainty in the use case set, *but* it's = almost never too early to start experimenting.  


On = Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> = wrote:
On Thu, Jan 24, = 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Juergen,
>
> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>

Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the = scope/complexity of
i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a = quick
overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if
many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
involved - then you need additional diagrams.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         = Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103   =       <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing = list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
=



= --Apple-Mail=_3E476988-6828-4421-B18C-C14434A3E4A9-- --Apple-Mail=_E8E50F76-C0A2-42A7-BBF4-F0C3C1734795-- From dmm@1-4-5.net Thu Jan 24 17:20:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B89311E80DC for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:20:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z4hDnqFHd-RR for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-da0-f42.google.com (mail-da0-f42.google.com [209.85.210.42]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B455211E80BF for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-da0-f42.google.com with SMTP id z17so4555882dal.1 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from :subject:date:to:x-gm-message-state; bh=DpaFBrUUNsOOL3zBY6qFbeeRS2UeabTQppCqY+EnsLk=; b=PQEYvRGFdC512tiXY8DBKr3k8T8arCkqmZ5h55IebfVnTFD7wCua4Y19UiFC0ccUfP gpfSQfbd473ssevI96zRylgnlzTXAR41vBFT/DCSo1Sx5LNoHE1xtIKFa90mfrLju+ZB VzcT+CYklpqmKk2EcbYBuhwUVSWP8OzB84WiPmoQKaxgF3mS8XU83uo8sMvPZ1FvBZtK O/DDdxuH1w53koVHsvQoh7HIEPljtwnhHU74Vpdtz5RArN63pIUvrJJXGsN6ElM/au3/ IUov9hQdjDcPWMIW8rLvATeBxENxBPxNsikUIIUOzZ2GoEF2KF2MKmGwZxjT9wlMjupm ASZw== X-Received: by 10.68.132.10 with SMTP id oq10mr10233395pbb.18.1359076803329; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:20:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.38.129] (mobile-166-137-186-036.mycingular.net. [166.137.186.36]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ug6sm15810800pbc.4.2013.01.24.17.19.56 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:20:01 -0800 (PST) References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> In-Reply-To: <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <860520F5-C848-443F-B62D-7E2D63D78E35@1-4-5.net> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A551) From: David Meyer Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:19:54 -0800 To: Juergen Schoenwaelder X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnDbTBfvlsbXciQY4qXJOSMR3oeV8ASfSnZZDXaWWj3EvtbIE+315XDFACDPdZTFwvGY0U8 Cc: Adrian Farrel , "i2rs@ietf.org" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:20:04 -0000 Agreed that YANG seems a reasonable place to start. --dmm Sent from my iPhone On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:26, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> Juergen, >>=20 >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >=20 > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > involved - then you need additional diagrams. >=20 > /js >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs From jeff.tantsura@ericsson.com Thu Jan 24 17:28:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E7211E80E1 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:28:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BqrBXqTizNy2 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg20.ericsson.net (usevmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9679B11E80D9 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:28:08 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-b7fcb6d000007ada-9a-5101dfa75ce8 Received: from EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.75]) by usevmg20.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 1E.63.31450.7AFD1015; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 02:28:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB109.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.126]) by EUSAAHC001.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.75]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:28:07 -0500 From: Jeff Tantsura To: David Meyer Thread-Topic: [i2rs] format for information models Thread-Index: AQHN+bLRnIQa/eHkRU2/Z4kJoh43N5hYxWKAgAAy/wCAAAObAIAAA3WAgACVJAD//6550g== Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:28:06 +0000 Message-ID: <2D6B5C37-E7BF-4F9B-9FDC-7D75CC1BE69E@ericsson.com> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local>, <860520F5-C848-443F-B62D-7E2D63D78E35@1-4-5.net> In-Reply-To: <860520F5-C848-443F-B62D-7E2D63D78E35@1-4-5.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrHLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+6K+4yBBrt+cFj86LnBbPHp4SVm i0NdG9kt1s34wGJxdeNPRgdWjzV7j7F47Jx1l91jyZKfTB4bDnh6rNi8kjGANYrLJiU1J7Ms tUjfLoEr48mDXraCo9wVr/Z0szcwLubsYuTkkBAwkfjW8o8ZwhaTuHBvPRuILSRwhFHiwY3K LkYuIHs5o8SqXY8YQRJsAgYS/78dZwGxRQTkJQ5eWMQEUsQssIZRYvLf92AJYQFDiRkn/rF3 MXIAFRlJvLinAlEfJvHn5TpWEJtFQFVi5/O7YMt4BewlHk/tZoNYdpJJ4ldHHytIL6eArcT1 E/YgNYxAx30/tYYJxGYWEJe49WQ+E8TRAhJL9pyHekBU4uXjf6wQNToSC3Z/YoOwtSWWLXzN DLFLUOLkzCcsExhFZyEZNQtJyywkLbOQtCxgZFnFyFFanFqWm25ksIkRGEfHJNh0dzDueWl5 iFGag0VJnDfI9UKAkEB6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmrxIUYmDk6pBkaeWz/qn7ItevX62bzITxqd v9KM/7XckbZ83TZ3ylHX1FjPBP9N84rXxCx98zzcc26b9dvgvNq0uym7C26Klersfvx4pvsE 85m/o6cUCekZu9vyL5xoqZ59Y9a18INTrL/8ueGdo9Da9blZNPzqv5pdb01rLC8qRDVUCDv/ Ku7Urg8IUFfVeqnEUpyRaKjFXFScCAAFZTaRcQIAAA== Cc: Adrian Farrel , Alia Atlas , Juergen Schoenwaelder , "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 01:28:15 -0000 Agree with David, at least we are not reinventing the wheel and using well = defined data model.=20 Regards, Jeff On Jan 24, 2013, at 17:20, "David Meyer" wrote: > Agreed that YANG seems a reasonable place to start. --dmm >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:26, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >>> Juergen, >>>=20 >>> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >>=20 >> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >>=20 >> /js >>=20 >> --=20 >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> _______________________________________________ >> i2rs mailing list >> i2rs@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs From ietfc@btconnect.com Fri Jan 25 07:29:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E79A21F88CB for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4B84RkF4FGWj for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A989121F88BD for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail100-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.230) by AM1EHSOBE001.bigfish.com (10.3.204.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:54 +0000 Received: from mail100-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail100-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDFB3601A2; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.250.181; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:AMSPRD0711HT002.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -19 X-BigFish: PS-19(zz9371I542I1432Izz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahzz1033IL8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839h947hd24hf0ah1177h1179h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah139eh13b6h1441h1504h1537h162dh1631h1758h17f1h184fh1898h18e1h304l1155h) Received: from mail100-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail100-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1359127792747382_416; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS006.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.254]) by mail100-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34AF34006D; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AMSPRD0711HT002.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.250.181) by AM1EHSMHS006.bigfish.com (10.3.207.106) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:51 +0000 Received: from DB3PRD0210HT004.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (157.56.253.69) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.242.14.163) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.257.4; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:50 +0000 Message-ID: <001a01cdfb10$6fd9b6c0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: , Noel Chiappa References: <20130124145051.6EB3518C13D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:59:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.253.69] X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Cc: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:56 -0000 I am used to a clear distinction between architecture and framework, a framework being Informational while an architecture is close to if not actually a Standard. Designs MUST then conform to the architecture. That said, most IETF work goes straight into detailed design, sometimes not even pausing for requirements:-( I liked 'architecture and framework' as covering most, if not all, the bases. Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Chiappa" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak > > From: "Adrian Farrel" > > > One of the ADs doing a final review of the draft charter is struggling > > with the difference or overlap between 'architecture' and 'framework'. > > >> I would change all instances of "High-level architecture and > >> framework" to "High-level architecture" > > > Would this cause anyone a peptic ulcer? > > To me, "high-level architecture" is beyond utterly redundant. (If it's not > high-level, it's not architecture.) > > > If 'architecture and framework' doesn't fly (it doesn't bother me that much, > and I see your point about avoiding the question, although I too am not sure > I see much of a distinction), just flip a coin (literally) and pick one. > > Noel > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From ietfc@btconnect.com Fri Jan 25 07:29:56 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1CD21F8896 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.349 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SBFMtsfU-d6o for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from am1outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (am1ehsobe004.messaging.microsoft.com [213.199.154.207]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75F821F88CA for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail97-am1-R.bigfish.com (10.3.201.231) by AM1EHSOBE018.bigfish.com (10.3.207.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:54 +0000 Received: from mail97-am1 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail97-am1-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34D238014D; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.250.181; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:AMSPRD0711HT002.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -15 X-BigFish: PS-15(z426fnzbb2dI98dI9371I542I1432Izz1ee6h1de0h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ahzz8275ch1033IL17326ah8275bh8275dhz2dh2a8h5a9h668h839h947hd24hf0ah1177h1179h1288h12a5h12a9h12bdh137ah139eh13b6h1441h1504h1537h162dh1631h1758h17f1h184fh1898h18e1h304l1155h) Received: from mail97-am1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail97-am1 (MessageSwitch) id 1359127792926852_6564; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AM1EHSMHS006.bigfish.com (unknown [10.3.201.246]) by mail97-am1.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7563A01AD; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from AMSPRD0711HT002.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (157.56.250.181) by AM1EHSMHS006.bigfish.com (10.3.207.106) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.225.23; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:51 +0000 Received: from DB3PRD0210HT004.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (157.56.253.69) by pod51017.outlook.com (10.242.14.163) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.257.4; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:51 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01cdfb10$70460d20$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Thomas Nadeau , "Jan Medved (jmedved)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas References: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:26:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [157.56.253.69] X-FOPE-CRA-Verdict: 157.56.250.181$juniper.net%12218%4%btconnect.com%False%False%0$ X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com Cc: Adrian Farrel , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:29:57 -0000 ... although we do get posts on the Netmod WG list saying what on earth are all these strange characters, so the format of YANG tree diagrams is not intuitive to all; there is probably an assumption of some (arcane?) piece of computer science in there somewhere. Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Nadeau" To: "Jan Medved (jmedved)" ; "Juergen Schoenwaelder" ; "Alia Atlas" Cc: "Adrian Farrel" ; Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models > +2 > > On 1/24/13 11:31 AM, "Jan Medved (jmedved)" wrote: > > >+1 for YANG tree diagrams to start with. > > > >On 1/24/13 8:26 AM, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" > > wrote: > > > >>On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > >>> Juergen, > >>> > >>> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > >>> > >> > >>Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > >>i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > >>something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > >>overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > >>many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > >>involved - then you need additional diagrams. > >> > >>/js > >> > >>-- > >>Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > >>Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany > >>Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > >>_______________________________________________ From lhotka@nic.cz Fri Jan 25 07:50:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3985F21F88BE for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:50:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.354 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsthzsRTkiWR for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39B521F8873 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (nat-5.bravonet.cz [77.48.224.5]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08F3213FAA4; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:50:14 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1359129014; bh=aq3Yq2hxH5bD7DiDyU5cpmaofnyF97fzd59jZY5GvhQ=; h=Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=R0xCx/OeR2JIPfOh5c4vpu3ZDE1ONEggAe4q6RDafUEGdHWe/JOBqurffxh3SWtrJ DctlRnIox/kUZCra/MhO3L7Q2W9lkBIMF1ER6l1imQJ3cOQST+9u28OXqr2unkVvPZ GH6vhf6r8xuwRdMYagLNJwLX/XiqeTthwu+c+yfU= Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ladislav Lhotka X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <001b01cdfb10$70460d20$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:50:13 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <13AF2173-B0C0-488C-92AF-AECF529187CF@nic.cz> References: <001b01cdfb10$70460d20$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> To: t.petch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.5 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: i2rs@ietf.org, Juergen Schoenwaelder , Alia Atlas , Thomas Nadeau , "Jan Medved \(jmedved\)" , Adrian Farrel Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:50:19 -0000 On Jan 25, 2013, at 4:26 PM, t.petch wrote: > ... although we do get posts on the Netmod WG list saying what on = earth > are all these strange characters, so the format of YANG tree diagrams = is > not intuitive to all; there is probably an assumption of some = (arcane?) > piece of computer science in there somewhere. It is certainly advisable to accompany such diagrams with some kind of = caption. In any case, I find these diagrams pretty useful and see = nothing really arcane, let alone computer science, in the output of pyang --tree-help Lada >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Nadeau" > To: "Jan Medved (jmedved)" ; "Juergen = Schoenwaelder" > ; "Alia Atlas" = > Cc: "Adrian Farrel" ; > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models >=20 >=20 >> +2 >>=20 >> On 1/24/13 11:31 AM, "Jan Medved (jmedved)" = wrote: >>=20 >>> +1 for YANG tree diagrams to start with. >>>=20 >>> On 1/24/13 8:26 AM, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >>>>> Juergen, >>>>>=20 >>>>> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity > of >>>> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >>>> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a > quick >>>> overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool = if >>>> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >>>> involved - then you need additional diagrams. >>>>=20 >>>> /js >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >>>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, = Germany >>>> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >>>> _______________________________________________ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From andy@yumaworks.com Fri Jan 25 09:16:52 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC4621F88A5 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fjoOb1UhQAYC for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vb0-f53.google.com (mail-vb0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4CB21F8899 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vb0-f53.google.com with SMTP id b23so432387vbz.26 for ; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=FrFxDIbSLfL6Xhs2FAN2pTxaLWHfPVHWq2QHeiIWTYA=; b=UNsV1skQsnj1pbLjYMe/UNbQ6ewJC8J9e7ctGcwZ9yr2u/6fHBNnp4kDwdvcwZIdSA 5VYd216iWb07atjlfVDzQyhLEUmH0Km6JD9xwyTiFpwMM/j/iF9HVp0m7C/7++JBso5k Krv6OT1JLw+YPa0qyK0j9SrST8cF3hMT3LqNDievSYnlxydS9C1CHNIsdKzViw2J3pDJ GSndANmTfaEl2ecFi7/SMeiNfPkpqKGPuR/RyDLCE+jhMh16IIgEgdtf20xj6gmju55X QeK4B7YxNNr3tqG8zMrgzbccsnprQ9VPo8RH5aMdaZW+4aiI3nph1Xy4Pm6uXL0DoN1J Z9yw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.108.2 with SMTP id d2mr6678108vcp.60.1359134210603; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.58.33.67 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2426A28B-D662-4F74-BA35-E79DB91E5DE4@nic.cz> References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> <2426A28B-D662-4F74-BA35-E79DB91E5DE4@nic.cz> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:16:50 -0800 Message-ID: From: Andy Bierman To: Ladislav Lhotka Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c7d60d33a7404d4201715 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnpAwNVWUP4pIhX7qylyBotqV2MPTFa5VWGlobWBKAzUC4Vlkgk/G5LVY/tH0R2CUaIzn/D Cc: Adrian Farrel , Alia Atlas , Juergen Schoenwaelder , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:16:52 -0000 --f46d043c7d60d33a7404d4201715 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > > On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: > >> Juergen, > >> > >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? > >> > > > > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of > > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick > > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick > > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if > > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are > > involved - then you need additional diagrams. > > I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG. > > How about both?. The first step is to understand the data structures at a high level and how they relate to each other. The IPFIX approach is best for that. The next step is understanding each data structure in more detail and YANG tree diagrams are good for that. I agree with Tom that the syntax is not completely intuitive. > Lada > > Andy --f46d043c7d60d33a7404d4201715 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Ladisla= v Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote:
>> Juergen,
>>
>> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs?
>>
>
> Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of=
> i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick
> something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick<= br> > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool = if
> many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are
> involved - then you need additional diagrams.

I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG.


How about both?. The first step is to = understand the data structures
at a high level and how they relat= e to each other. The IPFIX approach
is best for that. The next st= ep is understanding each data structure
in more detail and YANG tree diagrams are good for that. I agree with = Tom
that the syntax is not completely intuitive.

=C2=A0
Lada


Andy
=C2=A0
--f46d043c7d60d33a7404d4201715-- From lhotka@nic.cz Sat Jan 26 01:21:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EC321F841A for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTXCfT3bMSFo for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from trail.lhotka.name (nat-5.bravonet.cz [77.48.224.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33C021F8235 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 01:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198D1540745; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:20:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from trail.lhotka.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (trail.lhotka.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3EFnCmndqGVf; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:20:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (unknown [172.29.2.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by trail.lhotka.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D746540062; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:20:37 +0100 (CET) From: Ladislav Lhotka To: Andy Bierman In-Reply-To: References: <00ab01cdfa32$7e73a7b0$7b5af710$@olddog.co.uk> <20130124160050.GA53459@elstar.local> <20130124162607.GA53528@elstar.local> <2426A28B-D662-4F74-BA35-E79DB91E5DE4@nic.cz> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.14+243~g18d79d1 (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/23.3.50.1 (i386-apple-darwin9.8.0) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 10:20:38 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Adrian Farrel , Alia Atlas , Juergen Schoenwaelder , i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] format for information models X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 09:21:05 -0000 Andy Bierman writes: > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > >> >> On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < >> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >> >> Juergen, >> >> >> >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >> >> >> > >> > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >> > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >> > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >> > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >> > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >> > involved - then you need additional diagrams. >> >> I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG. >> >> > How about both?. The first step is to understand the data structures > at a high level and how they relate to each other. The IPFIX approach > is best for that. The next step is understanding each data structure I agree. The authors of 6728 use a semi-formal procedure for mapping UML diagrams to YANG structures: object properties are represented as YANG groupings, aggregated components as subordinate nodes and unidirectional associations as leafrefs. And then they fill in the details in YANG. Lada > in more detail and YANG tree diagrams are good for that. I agree with Tom > that the syntax is not completely intuitive. > > > >> Lada >> >> > Andy -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Sat Jan 26 07:04:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B5821F85AE for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:04:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.291 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.291 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.292, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S2i3-j4mp1Yi for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-da0-f53.google.com (mail-da0-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C3621F8596 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-da0-f53.google.com with SMTP id x6so592836dac.26 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:04:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9c723ZGfD128DWrAxQysvyLBDB5TpcI83cN2LvGRKGw=; b=t8NWBSc5kWq6A213cRqgLctlp7EaDTnk8rXJONetuFl+X/tSllJmJmrve1cMR43dRJ cyRpIeP3i2RGQCYoETpDLVEGWl9uYfZY/k6vmxPEMa+OMuWqn7IJ0N9vZf1eNEUBdyNk VoMwA1af73LLU/e4xETQ3fx2hnwPGF78DfqlxZ6p72eqeI4lxF4NhvkV1pMNslFzbXEi Atyy/hLXABNFnTImMCFkn404tM9g/xX7Un/7GFaShKtPSZF2XVqnw4kAbuUTuhXr1N0P B1OcSB8H0USxoIEy3xntE/2j7iQkBpQBfsbfBWClUriSasDf3ctZSJheGJ40Q5gIzqCQ Yygg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.136.132 with SMTP id qa4mr22663979pbb.166.1359212692221; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Sat, 26 Jan 2013 07:04:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:04:52 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: lhotka@nic.cz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [i2rs] Structure for I2RS communication information models (was Re: format for information models) X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 15:04:53 -0000 >> How about both?. The first step is to understand the data structures >> at a high level and how they relate to each other. The IPFIX approach >> is best for that. The next step is understanding each data structure Maybe *understand* at both levels high and low, then *model* each separate, > > I agree. The authors of 6728 use a semi-formal procedure for mapping UML > diagrams to YANG structures: object properties are represented as YANG > groupings, aggregated components as > subordinate nodes and unidirectional associations as leafrefs. And then they > fill in the details in YANG. I agree with the design approaches (i.e. RFC6728, UML, YANG, etc.) as well, but I think that i2rs has different purpose and so it will need a different structure and model definitions, AB On 1/26/13, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Andy Bierman writes: > >> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >> >>> >>> On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < >>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: >>> >>> > On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:13:44AM -0500, Alia Atlas wrote: >>> >> Juergen, >>> >> >>> >> What would you recommend for an information model for i2rs? >>> >> >>> > >>> > Frankly, I do not know. I am still unsure what the scope/complexity of >>> > i2rs really is. To find out, I guess people just have to pick >>> > something and get started. YANG tree diagrams are fine to get a quick >>> > overview of YANG data models, they likely won't be the right tool if >>> > many of data model items with more complex interrelationships are >>> > involved - then you need additional diagrams. >>> >>> I like the approach of RFC 6728 which combines UML with YANG. >>> >>> >> How about both?. The first step is to understand the data structures >> at a high level and how they relate to each other. The IPFIX approach >> is best for that. The next step is understanding each data structure > > I agree. The authors of 6728 use a semi-formal procedure for mapping UML > diagrams to YANG structures: object properties are represented as YANG > groupings, aggregated components as > subordinate nodes and unidirectional associations as leafrefs. And then they > fill in the details in YANG. > > Lada > >> in more detail and YANG tree diagrams are good for that. I agree with Tom >> that the syntax is not completely intuitive. >> >> >> >>> Lada >>> >>> >> Andy > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From russw@riw.us Mon Jan 28 10:29:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACEFE21F85D7 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:29:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s2oJIXrt8q0Y for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from da31.namelessnet.net (da31.namelessnet.net [74.124.205.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A7321F84F9 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-24-199-145-66.midsouth.biz.rr.com ([24.199.145.66] helo=[192.168.3.115]) by da31.namelessnet.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1TztSO-0005sh-DK for i2rs@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:29:24 -0800 Message-ID: <5106C380.3040102@riw.us> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:29:20 -0500 From: Russ White User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130107 Thunderbird/17.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: i2rs@ietf.org References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Seems clean. You should still use an Antivirus Scanner Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:29:25 -0000 > Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is desired and required in > i2rs, giving the > scope and reasoning. Perhaps it should turn into a requirements draft? IMHO, this hits the nail on the head. :-) Russ -- <>< riwhite@verisign.com russw@riw.us From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Mon Jan 28 11:55:14 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821D321F88B9 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:55:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.009, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uonPglHFzGIB for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com (mail-pb0-f54.google.com [209.85.160.54]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F72E21F87FA for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id rr4so1672541pbb.27 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ywyNWt4EWyU33kHRUyAp6WtizUB/9xM/c4Gt4KNJHCo=; b=AoqwF702iw36xahfpJhZupOrZzQNYjR8JNEvVwTDERVj9Q2T+y12shE0s1PA4MFaEg fQ+Xy0gfSvxdqpUszipD1sR/rNrkbBV96cf5tAFgZc/nGtUrRbwawXoB+7AelFOHlfcR YTG0hsuQB6iWy0P/HkXYc1CmYbdoLLZdKX2eJyQNvt7GXUN+/bl133zJMWwR7l4WHVNl SP4cLWSHVn4YEkPBSgMeC6JEHmLQP67mmYvrbfJAoOhvSPy7E4ep5uiLixN7v0St+BXv M/s3q+Xn2nM4F+HPdytK3OwR9YISyElTiKqjYdVBTWYwC8QSiLlpLNGyMvVGaZjHvh/W gO+A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.232.195 with SMTP id tq3mr40279089pbc.70.1359402912199; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.68.218.134 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5106C380.3040102@riw.us> References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> <5106C380.3040102@riw.us> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:55:12 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Russ White Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:55:14 -0000 +1 AB On 1/28/13, Russ White wrote: > >> Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is desired and required in >> i2rs, giving the >> scope and reasoning. Perhaps it should turn into a requirements draft? > > IMHO, this hits the nail on the head. > > :-) > > Russ > > > > -- > <>< > riwhite@verisign.com > russw@riw.us > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > From akatlas@gmail.com Mon Jan 28 12:12:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1B621F85EE for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJ84XyO8hFmH for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-x235.google.com (ia-in-x0235.1e100.net [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c02::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F206221F854E for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ia0-f181.google.com with SMTP id k25so4722340iah.40 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=FYAn915z53w1C++JvRTPeJzAXjgomkxfIUIsycuQsag=; b=RDX2FrerwJY3PMvjJvanFUASVzFpBEGl7yiPj45PY0U3bcNhyG2g4CC+kqwiBCjlqB bECfhKdykY3CQcC/RQsuKKtxqMnbw3yeHaQ7IBxMd1/bEi/21ogOHr4qHbiNnkcuqYZ7 AnHnz70NqgENVujHCI3Oe6RWh6zLbzM7DGBG/qo5jtvrahtIyEQHiAAdCIG28h4b7fsJ 9j/yZ/RP4q73Io0vQisCaC4o0Gaci+jkloe7FEPNvN00oe9s9V+Op8D4gV5wR9CZ9oTr hcd+p9783OqITMN6hyAwT+GT9x6XOjitJOjEypejHYjNMKQmgYop7thRCySTlr2x9Pe+ TvpQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.6.169 with SMTP id c9mr6140868iga.24.1359403950541; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.23.144 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5106C380.3040102@riw.us> References: <00bc01cdfa35$4ad62010$e0826030$@olddog.co.uk> <5106C380.3040102@riw.us> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 15:12:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Russ White Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f646717940acb04d45ee53d Cc: i2rs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [i2rs] Potential charter tweak X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:12:32 -0000 --e89a8f646717940acb04d45ee53d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We can work on that, but it does list things that aren't in the more tightly bound use-cases. Alia P S. I'm sick with a bad case of the flu so my input and draft-revising is pretty limited for a bit. On Jan 28, 2013 1:29 PM, "Russ White" wrote: > > > Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is desired and required in > > i2rs, giving the > > scope and reasoning. Perhaps it should turn into a requirements draft? > > IMHO, this hits the nail on the head. > > :-) > > Russ > > > > -- > <>< > riwhite@verisign.com > russw@riw.us > _______________________________________________ > i2rs mailing list > i2rs@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs > --e89a8f646717940acb04d45ee53d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We can work on that,=A0 but it does list things that aren= 9;t in the more tightly bound use-cases.

Alia
P S.=A0 I'm sick with a bad case of the flu so my input and draft-revis= ing is pretty limited for a bit.

On Jan 28, 2013 1:29 PM, "Russ White" = <russw@riw.us> wrote:

> Thus - the framework is the skeleton of what is desired and required i= n
> i2rs, giving the
> scope and reasoning. =A0 Perhaps it should turn into a requirements dr= aft?

IMHO, this hits the nail on the head.

:-)

Russ



--
<><
riwhite@verisign.com
russw@riw.us
_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
--e89a8f646717940acb04d45ee53d-- From iesg-secretary@ietf.org Tue Jan 29 09:50:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: i2rs@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D26221F8A8B; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:50:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NV6i+aQuF3Rh; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15A821F8A9B; Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:50:47 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.37 Message-ID: <20130129175047.25962.23331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:50:47 -0800 Cc: i2rs WG Subject: [i2rs] WG Action: Formed Interface to the Routing System (i2rs) X-BeenThere: i2rs@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interface to The Internet Routing System \(IRS\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:50:49 -0000 A new IETF working group has been formed in the Routing Area. For additional information please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Interface to the Routing System (i2rs) ------------------------------------------------ Current Status: Proposed Working Group Chairs: Alia Atlas Edward Crabbe Assigned Area Director: Adrian Farrel Mailing list Address: i2rs@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/maillist.html Charter of Working Group: In an IP routed network, the routing system: - Distributes topology and other state (network metadata) - Uses this network metadata to determine the best paths to each given reachable destination attached to the network - Communicates these decisions to the forwarding plane of each forwarding device in the network. That is, the routing system is the collection of entities, protocols and processes that collectively build the forwarding tables that are exported into the entities that constitute the network's forwarding plane. While processes participating in the routing system are often colocated with the local forwarding elements, this isn't a necessary condition. Thus, the routing system includes control plane protocols and processes that compute routes and paths for data packets, wherever the processes implementing those protocols and processes may be running. I2RS facilitates real-time or event driven interaction with the routing system through a collection of protocol-based control or management interfaces. These allow information, policies, and operational parameters to be injected into and retrieved (as read or by notification) from the routing system while retaining data consistency and coherency across the routers and routing infrastructure, and among multiple interactions with the routing system. The I2RS interfaces will co-exist with existing configuration and management systems and interfaces. It is envisioned that users of the I2RS interfaces will be management applications, network controllers, and user applications that make specific demands on the network. The I2RS working group works to develop a high-level architecture that describes the basic building-blocks necessary to enable the specific use cases, and that will lead to an understanding of the abstract informational models and requirements for encodings and protocols for the I2RS interfaces. Small and well-scoped use cases are critical to constrain the scope of the work and achieve sufficient focus for the working group to deliver successful outcomes. Initial work within the working group will be limited to a single administrative domain. The working group is chartered to work on the following items: - High-level architecture for I2RS including considerations of policy and security. - Tightly scoped key use cases for operational use of I2RS as follows: o Interactions with the Routing Information Base (RIB). Allowing read and write access to the RIB, but no direct access to the Forwarding Information Base (FIB). o Control and analysis of the operation of the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) including the setting and activation of policies related to the protocol. o Control, optimization, and choice of traffic exit points from networks based on more information than provided by the dynamic control plane. o Distributed reaction to network-based attacks through rapid modification of the control plane behavior to reroute traffic for one destination while leaving standard mechanisms (filters, metrics, and policy) in place for other routes. o Service layer routing to improve on existing hub-and-spoke traffic. o The ability to extract information about topology from the network. Injection and creation of topology will not be considered as an initial work item. Other use cases may be adopted by the working group only through rechartering. - Abstract information models consistent with the use cases. - Requirements for I2RS protocols and encoding languages. - An analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding languages against the requirements. The working group is not currently chartered to develop protocols, encoding languages, or data models. The objective of this work effort is to arrive at common standards for these items, but these items are dependent on the progress of the topics listed above. Work for these items will be conducted in this working group only after a re-charter, and/or may be carried out in another working group with specific responsibility for the protocol or encoding language. Milestones: Jul 2013 - Request publication of an Informational document defining the problem statement Jul 2013 - Request publication of an Informational document defining the high-level architecture Aug 2013 - Request publication of Informational documents describing use cases Sep 2013 - Request publication of an Informational document defining the protocol requirements Sep 2013 - Request publication of an Informational document defining encoding language requirements Feb 2014 - Request publication of Standards Track documents specifying information models Feb 2014 - Request publication of an Informational document providing an analysis of existing IETF and other protocols and encoding languages against the requirements Feb 2014 - Consider re-chartering