Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016 - 10:00am - 11:00am - Topic: Ephemeral State Requirements

From: Susan Hares <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 08:24:34 -0400

:== is a symbol that translates to defines as.  

Left side :== (defines as) right side info
Cat:== animal small furry
Sue

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone-------- Original message --------From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]> Date: 6/1/2016  4:25 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Susan Hares <[email-masked]> Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], 'Benoit Claise' <[email-masked]>, 'Alia Atlas' <[email-masked]> Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016 - 10:00am - 11:00am -
  Topic: Ephemeral State Requirements 
On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 03:29:55PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> Juergen: 
> 
> 
> >I understand YANG validation rules and I understand YANG's notion of
> configuration datastores. I do not >think this matches your ephemeral
> configuration validation.
> 
> This does not provide a technical discussion of: 
> a) what you understand the ephemeral configuration validation rules to be, 
> b) why you do not the model matches the configuration validation rules. 
> 
> 1 Data Model is a great idea for NETCONF/NETMOD.  However, it should
> encompass 
> 
> Ephemeral data:== ephemeral state ::== Ephemeral configuration + Ephemeral
> operational state 
>

Unless you define what the terms mean and what ::== means I have no
clue what you are trying to convey here.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

---

From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:31:17 +0200

OK. So if ephemeral state is the same as ephemeral data, can we simply
get rid of one of the terms?

Still looking for a definition of 'ephemeral operational state' (since
I consider operational state by nature to be ephemeral). And without
it, I can't really resolve the 'defined as' relationships.

/js

---

From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 09:07:43 -0400

Juergen: 

The I2RS architecture document has passed to RFC editor.  Your time to
request the definitions in that document has long past.  If you are asking
for a definition of ephemeral state in the I2RS ephemeral requirements
document, this is a valid comment.  Is this what you are asking for? 

Sue  

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2016 8:31 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; [email-masked]; 'Benoit Claise'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016 - 10:00am - 11:00am
-? Topic: Ephemeral State Requirements

OK. So if ephemeral state is the same as ephemeral data, can we simply get
rid of one of the terms?

Still looking for a definition of 'ephemeral operational state' (since I
consider operational state by nature to be ephemeral). And without it, I
can't really resolve the 'defined as' relationships.

/js

On Wed, Jun 01, 2016 at 08:24:34AM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> Left side :== (defines as) right side info Cat:== animal small furry 
> Sue
> 
> 
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone--------
Original message --------From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
<[email-masked]> Date: 6/1/2016  4:25 AM  (GMT-05:00)
To: Susan Hares <[email-masked]> Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked], 'Benoit Claise' <[email-masked]>, 'Alia Atlas'
<[email-masked]> Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016
- 10:00am - 11:00am -
>   Topic: Ephemeral State Requirements On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 
> 03:29:55PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > Juergen: 
> > 
> > 
> > configuration datastores. I do not >think this matches your 
> > ephemeral configuration validation.
> > 
> > Ephemeral data:== ephemeral state ::== Ephemeral configuration + 
> > Ephemeral operational state
> >
>

---

From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 12:36:23 +0200

If a document uses a term like 'ephemeral operational state' then I
think it should be defined somewhere (and ideally there would be an
indication where the definition can be found).

/js

---

From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 06:53:42 -0400

Juergen:

Do you think this definition belongs in the ephemeral requirements?  If so,
we can add it.   But perhaps we should define both ephemeral configuration
and ephemeral operational state.  Joel point out at the I2RS interim that
ephemeral operational state is just like all other operational state - it
disappears upon reboot.   It is ephemeral configuration which is different
than normal configuration - since it disappears upon reboot where normal
configuration does not. 

Is this diagram close to your existing model where opstate and ephemeral
configuration are parallel?  

+--------------------+    +--------------------------+
|    opstate         |    | ephemeral config  |
+--------------------+    +--------------------------+

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:36 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; [email-masked]; 'Benoit Claise'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016 - 10:00am - 11:00am

If a document uses a term like 'ephemeral operational state' then I think it
should be defined somewhere (and ideally there would be an indication where
the definition can be found).

/js

On Wed, Jun 01, 2016 at 09:07:43AM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> request the definitions in that document has long past.  If you are 
> asking for a definition of ephemeral state in the I2RS ephemeral 
> requirements document, this is a valid comment.  Is this what you are
asking for?
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder 
> [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016 - 10:00am - 
> 11:00am -? Topic: Ephemeral State Requirements
> 
> > > 1 Data Model is a great idea for NETCONF/NETMOD.  However, it 
> > > should encompass
> > >

---

From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 13:04:49 +0200

> configuration are parallel?  

I see two boxes, I am unsure what you think these boxes drawn this way
mean. What is 'this definition' in your first sentence? I really have
problems to follow what is going on.

/js

---

From: "Susan Hares" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 07:15:34 -0400

Juergen: 

On first sentence, ... restated 

Do you believe the "ephemeral operational state" belongs in the ephemeral
requirements? If so, we can add it.  Perhaps we should also add a definition
for ephemeral configuration. 

On picture -- here is your picture: 

   +-------------+                  +-----------+

   | <candidate> |                  | <startup> |

   |  (ct, rw)   |<---+        +--->| (ct, rw)  |

   +-------------+    |        |    +-----------+

          |           |        |           |

          |         +------------+         |

          +-------->| <running>  |<--------+

                    | (ct, rw)   |

                    +------------+

                          |         // e.g., removal of 'inactive' nodes

                          v

                    +------------+

                    | <intended> |  // subject to validation

                    | (ct, ro)   |

                    +------------+

                          |         // e.g., missing resources or delays

                          v

                    +------------+

                    | <applied>  |

                    | (ct, ro)   |

                    +------------+

                          |         // e.g., autodiscovery of values

                          v

          +--------------------------------+

          | <operational-state>            |<-- control plane and

          | (ct + cf, ro)                  |    ephemeral datastores

          +--------------------------------+

Is this part of the picture 

          +--------------------------------+

          | <operational-state>            |<-- control plane and

          | (ct + cf, ro)                  |    ephemeral datastores

          +--------------------------------+

Really 

  +--------------------+    +--------------------------+
+-----------------------+

 |    opstate         |    | ephemeral config  |   | applied  config    |

 | (cf, ro)               |    |   (ct, ro, ephemeral|  | (ct, ro)
|

 +--------------------+    +---------------------------+
+-------------------------+

Or just 

  | (cf, ro)               |    |   (ct, ro, ephemeral 

  +--------------------+    +---------------------------+   

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 7:05 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; [email-masked]; 'Benoit Claise'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS Interim Meeting - June 1, 2016 - 10:00am - 11:00am

> and ephemeral operational state.  Joel point out at the I2RS interim 

> that ephemeral operational state is just like all other operational state
- it

> than normal configuration - since it disappears upon reboot where 

> normal configuration does not.

> Is this diagram close to your existing model where opstate and 

> ephemeral configuration are parallel?

I see two boxes, I am unsure what you think these boxes drawn this way mean.
What is 'this definition' in your first sentence? I really have problems to
follow what is going on.

/js

-- 

Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         < <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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---

From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 13:50:04 +0200

I might be able to answer the picture question once I know what is
really meant by 'ephemeral operational state'.

/js

---

From: "Joel M. Halpern" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:14:29 -0400

From where I sit, there is no such thing as "ephemeral operational 
state".  There is "operational state" that reflects the effect of 
"ephemeral configuration", but as far as I can tell, it is still just 
"operational state".

Putting aside the operational state aspects, we do need to work out the 
diagramming / positioning of the ephemeral configuration and its 
relationship to the other components in the base diagram.

Yours,
Joel

---

From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:46:12 +0200

On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 11:14:29AM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> From where I sit, there is no such thing as "ephemeral operational state".
> There is "operational state" that reflects the effect of "ephemeral
> configuration", but as far as I can tell, it is still just "operational
> state".

This matches my understanding.
 
> relationship to the other components in the base diagram.

Yes. And to what extend 'configuration' is the right term...

/js