From nobody Wed Jun 1 07:40:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47EC12D53A for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:40:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3bfEDNnrM5K4 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x235.google.com (mail-qk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F26CA12D50F for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id c140so14003455qke.2 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 07:40:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7ygOaFAT7hl5wOQI5OsNmqY2Huc18XyoGyHLw2rRH4M=; b=Mtos69KTslfmEUh5DADrrrz2VCO8NyXtbJ35vV8C/3sxbVTqeYWwDS9ISz42xT3DUW ClbTtiFL1v5CIKH2GTMyjgO3dAdP2xsYlAGMXvcOlnlexwJRL2O660ePpegeSJVYRHBL xX0QBfA9p2AL/WH2GCDb7dCcYOTjrg8UNEN+d8HbzCVcWpglAo63jywd0hj3wk0sM5bg cz9Tc1UdymuEDtcmN0WGDD1YymUdZbSSjQga2GGXC8SwEL/bxiXcKIUJFN591lIIIovv wxGBZJzJRF05rHT1g7RZGEefbSGu2R4XKTRwpfmZCL6gJo8CoZ2YDi/kCfFGyecCOLY+ 82Tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7ygOaFAT7hl5wOQI5OsNmqY2Huc18XyoGyHLw2rRH4M=; b=VIxyn2qFdT4AxagpNdcd3kzTrP52MwVIhK8r8YbHJ1WGjpgTjRLbHytl37VT0bE0YJ 1T7Avo8rDAqI68XIZKpAtkewuDFZk7iiQJZ4zfhv71Orh+95Z/Qaflk7VrUWRy43g6J8 X32DDyRAdNO3WJPIpz9str3G8T8JFlAj6pTwZIG24b3STXSTSBxPIC4Tq0EKDqJh3PTc obPj7zc6CJVExi/5qhRUvv4dRtFfSAslFujNZR6oX5a5gIeguZh1xtanHVtGdVVhQN2z ifanvnQvh73EfVVEHrvu5nvMojT0lND8DSo9Y2yR25CgN26HsffajTjgY2/WtDxKJJ1q A67Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKtlp3LBkmPjHa+ULkOAMFPIpNQEX9l3R2OBRtKVB9rVJgqO9hsEuR+oXwgfTgaBZcyk84Coqsy/WTpQWZV X-Received: by 10.237.45.165 with SMTP id i34mr4028472qtd.3.1464792006923; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 07:40:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.189.195 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Thatcher Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:39:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c06bf923e815805343877bb Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fairness X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 14:40:09 -0000 --94eb2c06bf923e815805343877bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 In discussion around the dual-stack-fairness document, we have have concluded that the the dual-stack-fairness document should be published as Best Current Practice (BCP) instead of Informative. This allows it to be a normative reference for other documents. Also, earlier the WG has decided that dual-stack-fairness should be a separate document, not part of ICE-bis. Recently, arguments have been raised supporting both approaches, but based on earlier discussions, keeping the split appears to be more favored option. This email is to confirm consensus with these decisions. If you have any concerns with these decisions, please let it be known now. If no one objects, we will proceed with these decisions. Thanks, Peter --94eb2c06bf923e815805343877bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In discussion around the dual-stack-fairness document, we have have = concluded that the the dual-stack-fairness document should be published as = Best Current Practice (BCP) instead of Informative. This allows it to be a = normative reference for other documents.

Also, earlier the WG has decided that dual-stack-fairness should be a s= eparate document, not part of ICE-bis. Recently, arguments have been raised= supporting both approaches, but based on earlier discussions, keeping the = split appears to be more favored option.

This email is to confirm consensus with these decisions. If you have an= y concerns with these decisions, please let it be known now. If no one obje= cts, we will proceed with these decisions.

= Thanks,
Peter
--94eb2c06bf923e815805343877bb-- From nobody Wed Jun 1 07:59:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2BC12D5AA for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BL4MwwK1nsPh for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78B0212D549 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:59:05 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-bb-574ef8370afb Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.66]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 23.A3.27088.738FE475; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:59:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC016.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.66]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 16:59:03 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fairness Thread-Index: AQHRvBOCGRWgrwXFDkC1AgJg1p1pv5/UtB1d Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:59:02 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpgkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdSdf8h1+4wdzH5hbfLtRaXFv+mtWB yWPBplKPJUt+MgUwRXHZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlrD+tWvBYteL/ovgGxi8KXYwcHBICJhL/lvF3 MXICmWISF+6tZwOxhQSOMEq8XZHYxcgFZC9mlNiy6gAzSD2bgIVE9z9tkBoRAQ+JzW+Wg9UL C4RKrHz2hg2kREQgTOLg03SIEiOJHU9WsIPYLAIqEmd6n7GAlPAK+Eqs/2wAsSlAYsPd74wg NqdAoMSf/ytZQWxGoGu+n1rDBGIzC4hLNH2BiEsICEgs2XOeGcIWlXj5+B8rRE2+xIU/c8Hq eQUEJU7OfMIygVF4FpL2WUjKZiEpg4gbSHx5fxvK1pZYtvA1M4StL9H9/jQTsvgCRvZVjKLF qcVJuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWbGIHxcnDLb4MdjC+fOx5iFOBgVOLhTeD0CxdiTSwrrsw9 xCjBwawkwvviK1CINyWxsiq1KD++qDQntfgQozQHi5I4r/9LxXAhgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYLBMH p1QDY0HAdSGzZpX9muXtZ6ZnmB2ezHzEMih7uldVUkE054sWO8N1qxteZ/3uOOAwSyptelJV ovhi1i9PgzIy9aYqfPbcdbds62Umg9y/TznnKl5ROS+08UmFS8WqFQz3erpTtxyzmpT11KUl ZNUNDQvpqj02u6wv9h500vN7WFweuqtZzOT+2YJJSizFGYmGWsxFxYkAerKrHJMCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fairness X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 14:59:08 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, If the community wants a separate draft, I will not object. However, as I wrote in another e-mail, the DuFa draft needs some editorial = work. It is unclear exactly what it does, and exactly how we would referenc= e if from 5245bis. Regards, Christer Sent from my Windows Phone ________________________________ From: Peter Thatcher Sent: =FD01/=FD06/=FD2016 17:40 To: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fair= ness In discussion around the dual-stack-fairness document, we have have conclud= ed that the the dual-stack-fairness document should be published as Best Cu= rrent Practice (BCP) instead of Informative. This allows it to be a normati= ve reference for other documents. Also, earlier the WG has decided that dual-stack-fairness should be a separ= ate document, not part of ICE-bis. Recently, arguments have been raised sup= porting both approaches, but based on earlier discussions, keeping the spli= t appears to be more favored option. This email is to confirm consensus with these decisions. If you have any co= ncerns with these decisions, please let it be known now. If no one objects,= we will proceed with these decisions. Thanks, Peter --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

If the community wants a separate draft, I will not object.

However, as I wrote in another e-mail, the DuFa draft needs some editorial = work. It is unclear exactly what it does, and exactly how we would referenc= e if from 5245bis.

Regards,

Christer

Sent from my Windows Phone
From: Peter Thatcher
Sent: =FD01= /=FD06/=FD2016 17:40
To: ice@ietf.org
Subject: [Ice]= Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fairness
In discus= sion around the dual-stack-fairness document, we have have concluded that t= he the dual-stack-fairness document should be published as Best Current Practice (BCP) instead of Informative. This a= llows it to be a normative reference for other documents.

Also, earlie= r the WG has decided that dual-stack-fairness should be a separate document= , not part of ICE-bis. Recently, arguments have been raised supporting both= approaches, but based on earlier discussions, keeping the split appears to be more favored option.
This email i= s to confirm consensus with these decisions. If you have any concerns with = these decisions, please let it be known now. If no one objects, we will pro= ceed with these decisions.

Thanks,
Peter
--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Thu Jun 2 04:03:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A660212D110 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 04:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b_Y5CxL4p6KY for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 04:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B89EE12D6C1 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 04:02:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11000; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1464865368; x=1466074968; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=oSd3ccE7YkcsGgbHl7+mSf3oaEtuhzuSKJpH4jzOEho=; b=aeplDXo0igIMJZl8CdLi22UXKbt/BmGNxHB9Zm+RhRHYRF46qkikjExn ZAI8EzUcIrwhhQq51bdg9DNQXaYTM42LY6r5D2KnIr2LtmDdge07ChgmJ FdOELDDD2Uu8XDY5MfmMWRA05MP9AC5HolE0fNRsJOUOVVZ8hUHWezbtj Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DIBQC7EVBX/5JdJa1egm1NVn0GtTCGc?= =?us-ascii?q?hcBCoVvAhyBGDwQAQEBAQEBAWUnhEUBAQEEAQEBIEsLEAIBCBEEAQEoAwICAiU?= 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Holmberg Thread-Topic: [Ice] Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fairness Thread-Index: AQHRvBYp8LQk40uLNEqmk/PK/vcIWp/WR3aA Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 11:02:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3802BCA9@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.249.111] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C295E5AD78204F509FA41AB1F6A43299ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Confirmation of consensus of 2 decisions for dual-stack-fairness X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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--_000_C295E5AD78204F509FA41AB1F6A43299ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 6 11:42:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A01512D526; Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:42:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160606184217.20891.43538.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 11:42:17 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-02.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:42:17 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF. Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol Authors : Emil Ivov Eric Rescorla Justin Uberti Peter Saint-Andre Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-02.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2016-06-06 Abstract: This document describes an extension to the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables ICE agents to send and receive candidates incrementally rather than exchanging complete lists. With such incremental provisioning, ICE agents can begin connectivity checks while they are still gathering candidates and considerably shorten the time necessary for ICE processing to complete. This mechanism is called "trickle ICE". The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 6 11:58:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2567212D590 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lmszAjJXMRYU for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F2A12D0B2 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (unknown [98.245.40.52]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6EEC7E8206; Mon, 6 Jun 2016 13:10:46 -0600 (MDT) References: <20160606184217.20891.43538.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ice@ietf.org From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <43f3ba66-0cfb-9030-c081-0bc533c2a243@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:58:51 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160606184217.20891.43538.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-02.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 18:58:54 -0000 On 6/6/16 12:42 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF. > > Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol > Authors : Emil Ivov > Eric Rescorla > Justin Uberti > Peter Saint-Andre > Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-02.txt Just a small update to use IPv6 examples... Peter From nobody Tue Jun 7 08:22:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E136D12D787 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ynhrVBHbc-j5 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22c.google.com (mail-qg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72CF312D786 for ; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id q32so59930574qgq.3 for ; Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:22:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bvbqcVCj/h1byqK0sSLmYag2SJf0eqrDEJn8ERu0Ze4=; b=eDKmT1NjYfpxURcQB7qCo7gvQmOQBony0qFbnSrThGVD02MiFjQfpnJ5JOP3wKK3Dk U+J6VG+8LAykZ3//pjefDQZSnwwPnvzsFcNt8G5wo03R/tNVaojPo9DVj6CFpuqQLhcI 79ggWrlfJfXmyoDl1PtcC3/XtvhkUUD9owgFcnXbT6Q+76rkz3h3qlQC0/gFonZ12erE rDv28e7Ck+zppBbCDgkZSA40v9s4g3taBvaI81V0q35ixRqNz4xOzwIcfrhfeGn0usfo H5Yn3DjRQHPMcnxuQjcBBucEBYGX28xqYveMDW8v458Fj0YKNv6EdPi5GNcFPZD0W2kz xQLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bvbqcVCj/h1byqK0sSLmYag2SJf0eqrDEJn8ERu0Ze4=; b=Qlq9GH9EEWX2xVRffd/BMHh/dNRO/ljcaMiD4C2OfjMgM1s70Ls5OlziZAW0hQT/d6 8gq8WYw3eyoKGCvA17nl/ADWa59xDTBWeF7nJGM+eiO2fTZQ88nFjXzoWHkGpfs+R79Q /wh5GNg/tl70WugcAcI1VJKontYGNBreR/3kNMY6QiyQspyJqRpwTiKmy96NwUK8yt/9 OK4gjrgSnIiiyZTUZfC7f1j3qGkx5JiCQqN2uKaY8fMmu5E8+6UG8AeMaIWF6VWRkLaT FKLZP8vjjywaz3VujeJJI61k53vMiNjkHwKCyGh2w9kEbNsSqLpCrYABLCsVX+dfrs81 7VlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIUxJ8y1xnAhDH3cp3osn845uhfQBauAvKwFhCzPxVZfYhQ7xcDlH9HSjYRBqI7R1ugfBou5e4DaADUu7lP X-Received: by 10.140.43.166 with SMTP id e35mr21106633qga.72.1465312921302; Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:22:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.189.195 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:21:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Thatcher Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 08:21:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a9be8294e580534b1c0f6 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Agenda requests for ICE WG at IETF 96 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 15:22:04 -0000 --001a113a9be8294e580534b1c0f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello ICE WG, We requested a 2.5-hour session for IETF 96 in Berlin. If you would like to have a presentation slot at the ICE WG meeting, please let us (the chairs) know as soon as possible, and at the latest by June 24th. We will prioritize work that has been already discussed on the mailing list, so please raise open issues on the ICE list already well before the meeting. In your agenda request e-mail please specify the following: - name of the draft and the presenter - how much time you would like to have - outline of major open issues; what needs to be discussed at the meeting - dependencies to your draft (if any) Thanks, Ari & Peter (ICE WG co-chairs) --001a113a9be8294e580534b1c0f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello ICE WG,

We requested a 2= .5-hour session for IETF 96 in Berlin.

If you would like to have a presentation slot at the ICE WG meeting, plea= se let us (the chairs) know as soon as possible, and at the latest by June = 24th. =C2=A0

We will prioritize work = that has been already discussed on the mailing list, so please raise open i= ssues on the ICE list already well before the meeting.

In your=C2=A0agenda=C2=A0request e-mail please spe= cify the following:
- = name of the draft and the presenter
- how much=C2=A0time=C2=A0you would like to have
- outline of major open iss= ues; what needs to be discussed at the meeting
- dependencies to your draft (if any)


Thanks,
Ari= & Peter
(ICE WG c= o-chairs)
--001a113a9be8294e580534b1c0f6-- From nobody Tue Jun 7 15:23:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA13F12D83D; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34Qg9d2tfKnB; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DC5F12D6B2; Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id u57MNbCk070575 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 7 Jun 2016 17:23:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.4] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 17:23:40 -0500 Message-ID: <85EF893C-936D-4368-83DF-12A26D74C47C@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: References: <86559E67-6412-4971-AB74-6680D079CAC8@cisco.com> <12099752-1FB6-4BB6-A9E7-1CC74871234C@ericsson.com> <5FB58FA2-75F4-4A13-8D0D-B83370278344@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: Ari =?utf-8?q?Ker=C3=A4nen?= , "draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness.all@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2016 22:23:46 -0000 Hi, IIUC, the ball is in the authors court to submit a new revision. Can people offer an estimate of when that might happen? Thanks! Ben. On 23 May 2016, at 9:25, Ben Campbell wrote: > I'm okay with this approach in general. Some comments inline: > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > On 23 May 2016, at 5:58, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > >> On 22 May 2016, at 22:34, Ari Keränen >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Regarding the split to different drafts, our goal with the ICEbis >>> work was to fix errors and make sure we have the right hooks and >>> text for the extensions that we need. And we decided that everything >>> else, such as new features/extra functionality, would go to >>> different document(s). Of course the DS draft is a borderline case, >>> but given how much material (e.g., the algorithm) there is, to me >>> (chair hat off) separate document sounds still like a better idea. >>> >>> But yes, the current text in ICEbis about RFC6724 needs to be >>> updated and point to the dual-stack document. Having text there >>> about the general procedure makes sense. >>> >>> Regarding BCP or Informational for the DS draft status, I don't >>> think we considered the BCP option. Now thinking about it, BCP seems >>> reasonable option. >>> >> >> >> +1 BCP Seems like a better option. >> >> The current proposal for progressing this draft: >> - Move from Informational to BCP > > I think that makes sense, if we keep it separate from ICEBis. As an > individual, I think merging it into ICEBis would be the best long-term > choice, but as AD I'm ok with progressing things as is for > "historical" reasons. (read: Because we've gotten this far separately, > merging them would create a fair amount of re-work.) But do not be > surprised if this comes up again during IESG review. > >> - ICEbis will have a normative reference to ICE-Dualstack fairness. >> (So this can potentially hold up ICEbis, but probably not) >> - Text can be shortened a lot if we assume readers are more familiar >> with ICE and only reference the appropriate ICE sections. I prefer >> the current text as it saves readers familiar with ICE but without >> fresh memories of details some time looking up the appropriate ICE >> section. > > The big issue here is, since ICEBis is still in play, do we expect the > explanatory text to stay "current"? Otherwise, it's just a matter of > making being clear that whatever explanatory material exists makes it > clear that it is not authoritative. > > I'll leave this to the authors an chairs to decide. My personal advice > would be to keep some explanatory text, but shorten it quite a bit. > It's reasonable to have enough to give a reader a sense of what is > going on, but it's also reasonable to expect people to understand ICE > to fully understand this. > >> - Normative references to ICEbis instead of ICE. Work with ICEbis to >> remove current ambiguity of SHOULD wording regarding 6724 (Will hold >> publication of draft until ICEbis is complete). > > +1 > >> >> Not sure if this requires a new WGLC. The chairs will decide that. > > Things like changing to BCP, changing normative references, etc need > to be confirmed with the working group. It might make sense to > reconfirm the split draft approach, but I will leave that to the > chairs to decide. I don't think these things need a full WGLC, but if > that's the easiest way forward it doesn't hurt. 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AQHRmgXS7VKNGBrK2EGvlNTtCBMZmp+RbqUAgBZiDACAGky7gIADxGQAgADxW4CAADmygIAYGKEAgAJ2d4A= Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 13:37:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <86559E67-6412-4971-AB74-6680D079CAC8@cisco.com> <12099752-1FB6-4BB6-A9E7-1CC74871234C@ericsson.com> <5FB58FA2-75F4-4A13-8D0D-B83370278344@cisco.com> <85EF893C-936D-4368-83DF-12A26D74C47C@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <85EF893C-936D-4368-83DF-12A26D74C47C@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.232.122] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FABB84E12F414AF68124779B21EF9CE1ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: =?utf-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= , "draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness.all@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 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--_000_FABB84E12F414AF68124779B21EF9CE1ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 9 18:15:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E75512D826 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMaOCdhEI94H for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.live555.com (ns.live555.com [4.79.217.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 418F212D863 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.live555.com [127.0.0.1]) by ns.live555.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTP id u5A1FIub046513 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from finlayson@live555.com) X-Authentication-Warning: ns.live555.com: Host localhost.live555.com [127.0.0.1] claimed to be [127.0.0.1] From: Ross Finlayson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 18:15:18 -0700 To: ice@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] STUN attribute 0xC057 - What is this? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 01:15:23 -0000 (Apologies in advance for the slightly off-topic question) I=E2=80=99ve found that my STUN server (in my WebRTC server = implementation) often receives STUN Binding Requests that contain an = unknown attribute type 0xC057. This attribute is always 4-bytes long, = with each of the four bytes being zero. This unknown attribute is sent by Chrome (and Opera) browsers, but = apparently never by Firefox. According to RFC 5389 (and IANA), STUN attribute 0xC057 is unassigned, = but is in the 'Designated Expert=E2=80=99 Comprehension-Optional range. Does anyone know what this is? Ross Finlayson Live Networks, Inc. http://www.live555.com/ From nobody Thu Jun 9 19:10:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F52C12D68D for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:10:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B1ej6Qkp7wPD for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D13B1128874 for ; Thu, 9 Jun 2016 19:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id u5A2ARxt019160 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 9 Jun 2016 21:10:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Ross Finlayson , ice@ietf.org References: From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <14d29af6-91f1-e782-c64c-9dfc29e5676c@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 21:10:27 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] draft-thatcher-ice-network-cost (was Re: STUN attribute 0xC057 - What is this?) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 02:10:30 -0000 On 6/9/16 8:15 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote: > (Apologies in advance for the slightly off-topic question) > > I’ve found that my STUN server (in my WebRTC server implementation) often receives STUN Binding Requests that contain an unknown attribute type 0xC057. This attribute is always 4-bytes long, with each of the four bytes being zero. > > This unknown attribute is sent by Chrome (and Opera) browsers, but apparently never by Firefox. > > According to RFC 5389 (and IANA), STUN attribute 0xC057 is unassigned, but is in the 'Designated Expert’ Comprehension-Optional range. > > Does anyone know what this is? Yep, it's part of the webrtc.org code: https://chromium.googlesource.com/external/webrtc/+/6ab3db249b075e0e820a263d54804f521e7bc24b/webrtc/p2p/base/stun.h#611 It appears to have been introduced here: https://codereview.webrtc.org/1815473002 And it seems to be described, at least at a high level, here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thatcher-ice-network-cost-00 Maybe Peter will explain his draft further? I would suggest that the IANA section, at least, is incorrect. /a From nobody Fri Jun 10 04:53:03 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EDA12B008; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 04:53:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 04:53:02 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 11:53:02 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF. Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack Fairness Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen Tirumaleswar Reddy Prashanth Patil Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2016-06-10 Abstract: This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE specification. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jun 10 05:07:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708BA12D18D for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 05:07:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mu0fL3n3x0WY for 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"ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6oLZawCbGodE+XQzAhOWc3XJ/i3isA Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:07:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.232.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <14094C1D49F4FD479E855B11D0EDC2E9@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:07:29 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpUaGlzIHZlcnNpb24gdHJpZXMgdG8gYWRkcmVzcyBpc3N1ZXMgZHVyaW5nIElF U0cgcmV2aWV3Lg0KDQotIENoYW5nZWQgSW50ZW5kZWQgU3RhdHVzIHRvIEJlc3QgQ3VycmVudCBQ cmFjdGljZXMNCi0gQWxsIHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgYXJlIG5vdyB0byBJQ0ViaXMgbm90IElDRS4gDQot IENoYW5nZXMgdG8gcmVmbGVjdCBwcm9wb3NlZCBuZXcgdGV4dCBpbiBJQ0ViaXMNCi0gQm90aCBJ Q0ViaXMgYW5kIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgY3Jvc3MgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGVhY2ggb3RoZXIuDQoNClByb3Bv c2VkIGNoYW5nZXMgdG8gSUNFYmlzDQoNClNlY3Rpb24gNC4xLjIuMQ0KDQpPbGQgdGV4dDogDQpJ ZiBhIGhvc3QgaXMgbXVsdGlob21lZCBiZWNhdXNlIGl0IGlzIGR1YWwtc3RhY2ssIHRoZSBsb2Nh bCBwcmVmZXJlbmNlDQpTSE9VTEQgYmUgc2V0IGVxdWFsIHRvIHRoZSBwcmVjZWRlbmNlIHZhbHVl IGZvciBJUCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgZGVzY3JpYmVkDQppbiBSRkMgNjcyNCBbUkZDNjcyNF0uIElmIHRo ZSBob3N0IG9wZXJhdGluZyBzeXN0ZW0gcHJvdmlkZXMgYW4gQVBJDQpmb3IgZGlzY292ZXJpbmcg cHJlZmVyZW5jZSBhbW9uZyBkaWZmZXJlbnQgYWRkcmVzc2VzLCB0aG9zZQ0KcHJlZmVyZW5jZXMg U0hPVUxEIGJlIHVzZWQgZm9yIHRoZSBsb2NhbCBwcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRvIHByaW9yaXRpemUNCmFk 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bHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQo+IA0KPiBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdHMgYXJlIGFsc28gYXZhaWxhYmxlIGJ5 IGFub255bW91cyBGVFAgYXQ6DQo+IGZ0cDovL2Z0cC5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMv DQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K PiBJY2UgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEljZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ljZQ0KDQo= From nobody Fri Jun 10 05:33:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1F612D99E for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 05:33:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zdj5Wrp0AnWV for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 05:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5823212D911 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 05:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-cc-575ab395b7d2 Received: from ESESSHC019.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.75]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id DA.11.12516.593BA575; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:33:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC019.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:33:24 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6nJ/0ewn6wGki81dDJBOldUp/ieZkAgAA6h4A= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:33:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <5BBCDFFE45186B4AA98E03AF63A96D8A@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7t+7UzVHhBpcP8lt8u1Br8f76ShYH Jo8pvzeyeixZ8pMpgCmKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK+Pql1MsBVfMKk619bM1ME7V6WLk5JAQMJGY 93wNK4QtJnHh3nq2LkYuDiGBI4wSf/dPZANJCAksYZSY9dSpi5GDg03AQqL7nzZIWEQgROLX 2XlgvcIC7hJvZ3aygJSICHhI9B/NhCixkrg/5S0zSJhFQFViWxc/SJgXKPyq7Q8LxPASiQ2f HrKD2JwCthK73u8Hm8gIdM33U2uYQGxmAXGJW0/mM0FcKSCxZM95ZghbVOLl439g9aICehJf 7s1jhIgrSnx8tY8RoldP4sbUKWwQtrXEmgsnWCBsbYllC18zQ9wjKHFy5hOWCYzis5Csm4Wk fRaS9llI2mchaV/AyLqKUbQ4tbg4N93IWC+1KDO5uDg/Ty8vtWQTIzDODm75rbuDcfVrx0OM AhyMSjy8D55FhguxJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4ZVfHxUuxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGag0VJnNf/ pWK4kEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgbGbwSJGSlXpdnFQx6bX88yjK0JX/JzFGBHc+DvFcUHV wV1HOEtLXvuv8Pn/88a/u/1f9h6J+a5vdPX02jUp/zfErzH49e/zx/cKt/zPi2ULR+22yIw6 s/DnpPjYC5Oelk9c/X9S0bxZh70WbLrn5Cc1kc22PKu36OalX35xO9ay5fPwZGtwmu5XYinO SDTUYi4qTgQA9Pb6868CAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:33:30 -0000 Hi, The suggested text says that, if a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the guidelines in ice-dualstack-fairness should be followed. However, section 3 of ice-dualstack-fairness seems to be about multihoming in general (not necessarily due to dual-stack). And, as the name of section 3 contains =B3Improving=B2, shouldn=B9t all multihoming hosts use ice-dualstack-fairness? Regards, Christer On 10/06/16 15:07, "Ice on behalf of Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" wrote: >Hi all, > >This version tries to address issues during IESG review. > >- Changed Intended Status to Best Current Practices >- All references are now to ICEbis not ICE. >- Changes to reflect proposed new text in ICEbis >- Both ICEbis and this draft cross reference each other. > >Proposed changes to ICEbis > >Section 4.1.2.1 > >Old text:=20 >If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference >SHOULD be set equal to the precedence value for IP addresses described >in RFC 6724 [RFC6724]. If the host operating system provides an API >for discovering preference among different addresses, those >preferences SHOULD be used for the local preference to prioritize >addresses indicated as preferred by the operating system. > >New text: >If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference >should be set acording to the current best practice described in >RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness]. > >Open Issues: >- No capital SHOULD when referring to a BCP? >- Fairness draft updated to mention RFC6724 so we can avoid referring it >in ICEbis? >- Make ICEbis as simple as possible and let people read the fairness BCP >for details? At least avoid having the same information in both RFCs. > > >Section 4.1.2.2 > >New text: >One criterion for selection of the type and local preference values is >the use of a media intermediary, such as a TURN server, a tunnel >service such as VPN server, or NAT. With a media intermediary, if >media is sent to that candidate, it will first transit the media >intermediary before being received. Relayed candidates are one type >of candidate that involves a media intermediary. Another are host >candidates obtained from a VPN interface. When media is transited >through a media intermediary, it can increase the latency between >transmission and reception. It may or may not increase the packet >losses, because of the additional router hops that may be taken. It >may increase the cost of providing service, since media will be routed >in and right back out of a media intermediary run by a provider. If >these concerns are important, the type preference for relayed >candidates SHOULD be lower than host candidates. The RECOMMENDED >values are 126 for host candidates, 100 for server reflexive >candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed >candidates. > >Furthermore, if an agent is multihomed and has multiple IP addresses, >the recomandation in RFCXXXX [dual-stack fairnes] should be followed. >If multiple TURN servers are used, local priorities for the candidates >obtained from the TURN servers are chosen in a similar fashion as for >multihomed local candidates: the local preference value is used to >indicate preference among different servers but the preference MUST be >unique for each one. > >Another criterion for selection of preferences is IP address family. >ICE works with both IPv4 and IPv6. It therefore provides a transition >mechanism that allows dual-stack hosts to prefer connectivity over >IPv6, but to fall back to IPv4 in case the v6 networks are >disconnected. Implementation should follow the gudlines from RFCXXX >[dualstack-fairnes] to avoid ecessive dealys in the connectivity check >phase if broken paths exists. > >Another criterion for selecting preferences might be security or >privacy. If a user is a telecommuter, and therefore connected to a >corporate network and a local home network, the user may prefer their >voice traffic to be routed over the VPN or similar tunnel in order to >keep it on the corporate network when communicating within the >enterprise, but use the local network when communicating with users >outside of the enterprise. In such a case, a VPN address would have a >higher local preference than any other address. > >Open Issues: >- Relaxing language that indicates bad bad things happen if a relay is >involved. >- Removed Text regarding 6to4. Anyone using it?(NAT64 and DNS64 is the >- way to go?) Can add text to the > fairness draft to simplify ICEbis. 6to4 is a tunnel and the fairness > draft talks about tunnels. (None mentioned for the far of calling > out the bad ones..) >- Added privacy to as a VPN example as well. >- I feel more text is needed if we want to keep the VPN text there. We > need to explain split tunneling and how that migh or might not be > available. Some wording regarding IP adreess leakege would also be > beneficial. =20 > > > >.-. >P=E5l-Erik > >> On 10 Jun 2016, at 13:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment >>of the IETF. >>=20 >> Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack >>Fairness >> Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen >> Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Prashanth Patil >> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt >> Pages : 10 >> Date : 2016-06-10 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive >> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and >> IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The >> provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE >> specification. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ >>=20 >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > >_______________________________________________ >Ice mailing list >Ice@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Fri Jun 10 06:28:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C837D12D0B2 for ; 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Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:28:16 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-019.cisco.com (64.101.220.159) by XCH-RTP-018.cisco.com (64.101.220.158) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:28:15 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-019.cisco.com ([64.101.220.159]) by XCH-RTP-019.cisco.com ([64.101.220.159]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:28:15 -0400 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6oLZawCbGodE+XQzAhOWc3XJ/i3isAgAAHVICAAA9UgA== Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:28:15 +0000 Message-ID: <6544C38E-B16B-445E-A23C-E2D14D540667@cisco.com> References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.93.84] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <47A27B336316DE418589C4DBB01FCD89@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:28:20 -0000 > On 10 Jun 2016, at 14:33, Christer Holmberg wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > The suggested text says that, if a host is multihomed because it is > dual-stack, the guidelines in ice-dualstack-fairness should be followed. >=20 > However, section 3 of ice-dualstack-fairness seems to be about multihomin= g > in general (not necessarily due to dual-stack). >=20 > And, as the name of section 3 contains =B3Improving=B2, shouldn=B9t all > multihoming hosts use ice-dualstack-fairness? >=20 So would: If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference should be set acording to the current best practice described in RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness] section 4. be better? ICEBis section 4.1.2.2. talks about multihoming in more generic terms so th= at can reference without any specific sections. We can collapse section 3 and 4 in the fairness draft and be more explicit = that dual-stack really is a special case of multihoming. But I think people= are used to have a distinction between multihoming and dual-stack.=20 .-. P=E5l-Erik > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 >=20 > On 10/06/16 15:07, "Ice on behalf of Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" > wrote: >=20 >> Hi all, >>=20 >> This version tries to address issues during IESG review. >>=20 >> - Changed Intended Status to Best Current Practices >> - All references are now to ICEbis not ICE. >> - Changes to reflect proposed new text in ICEbis >> - Both ICEbis and this draft cross reference each other. >>=20 >> Proposed changes to ICEbis >>=20 >> Section 4.1.2.1 >>=20 >> Old text:=20 >> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference >> SHOULD be set equal to the precedence value for IP addresses described >> in RFC 6724 [RFC6724]. If the host operating system provides an API >> for discovering preference among different addresses, those >> preferences SHOULD be used for the local preference to prioritize >> addresses indicated as preferred by the operating system. >>=20 >> New text: >> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference >> should be set acording to the current best practice described in >> RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness]. >>=20 >> Open Issues: >> - No capital SHOULD when referring to a BCP? >> - Fairness draft updated to mention RFC6724 so we can avoid referring it >> in ICEbis? >> - Make ICEbis as simple as possible and let people read the fairness BCP >> for details? At least avoid having the same information in both RFCs. >>=20 >>=20 >> Section 4.1.2.2 >>=20 >> New text: >> One criterion for selection of the type and local preference values is >> the use of a media intermediary, such as a TURN server, a tunnel >> service such as VPN server, or NAT. With a media intermediary, if >> media is sent to that candidate, it will first transit the media >> intermediary before being received. Relayed candidates are one type >> of candidate that involves a media intermediary. Another are host >> candidates obtained from a VPN interface. When media is transited >> through a media intermediary, it can increase the latency between >> transmission and reception. It may or may not increase the packet >> losses, because of the additional router hops that may be taken. It >> may increase the cost of providing service, since media will be routed >> in and right back out of a media intermediary run by a provider. If >> these concerns are important, the type preference for relayed >> candidates SHOULD be lower than host candidates. The RECOMMENDED >> values are 126 for host candidates, 100 for server reflexive >> candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed >> candidates. >>=20 >> Furthermore, if an agent is multihomed and has multiple IP addresses, >> the recomandation in RFCXXXX [dual-stack fairnes] should be followed. >> If multiple TURN servers are used, local priorities for the candidates >> obtained from the TURN servers are chosen in a similar fashion as for >> multihomed local candidates: the local preference value is used to >> indicate preference among different servers but the preference MUST be >> unique for each one. >>=20 >> Another criterion for selection of preferences is IP address family. >> ICE works with both IPv4 and IPv6. It therefore provides a transition >> mechanism that allows dual-stack hosts to prefer connectivity over >> IPv6, but to fall back to IPv4 in case the v6 networks are >> disconnected. Implementation should follow the gudlines from RFCXXX >> [dualstack-fairnes] to avoid ecessive dealys in the connectivity check >> phase if broken paths exists. >>=20 >> Another criterion for selecting preferences might be security or >> privacy. If a user is a telecommuter, and therefore connected to a >> corporate network and a local home network, the user may prefer their >> voice traffic to be routed over the VPN or similar tunnel in order to >> keep it on the corporate network when communicating within the >> enterprise, but use the local network when communicating with users >> outside of the enterprise. In such a case, a VPN address would have a >> higher local preference than any other address. >>=20 >> Open Issues: >> - Relaxing language that indicates bad bad things happen if a relay is >> involved. >> - Removed Text regarding 6to4. Anyone using it?(NAT64 and DNS64 is the >> - way to go?) Can add text to the >> fairness draft to simplify ICEbis. 6to4 is a tunnel and the fairness >> draft talks about tunnels. (None mentioned for the far of calling >> out the bad ones..) >> - Added privacy to as a VPN example as well. >> - I feel more text is needed if we want to keep the VPN text there. We >> need to explain split tunneling and how that migh or might not be >> available. Some wording regarding IP adreess leakege would also be >> beneficial. =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> .-. >> P=E5l-Erik >>=20 >>> On 10 Jun 2016, at 13:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>> directories. >>> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment >>> of the IETF. >>>=20 >>> Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack >>> Fairness >>> Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen >>> Tirumaleswar Reddy >>> Prashanth Patil >>> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt >>> Pages : 10 >>> Date : 2016-06-10 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: >>> This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive >>> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and >>> IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The >>> provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE >>> specification. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ >>>=20 >>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>>=20 >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-0= 3 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>> submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >=20 From nobody Fri Jun 10 07:02:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4D6012D53B for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OUjTEV9i3KD for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E66A812D0B1 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-f2-575ac86592c6 Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.36]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B9.11.12516.568CA575; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:02:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC006.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 16:01:49 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6nJ/0ewn6wGki81dDJBOldUp/ieZkAgAA6h4D//9wegIAAKuho Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 14:01:49 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804A3E0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> , <6544C38E-B16B-445E-A23C-E2D14D540667@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <6544C38E-B16B-445E-A23C-E2D14D540667@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804A3E0ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprMIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7im7qiahwg5tPhSy+Xai1eH99JYsD k8eU3xtZPZYs+ckUwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlbH7djNbwbSXjBVz5l9naWBseczYxcjJISFg InHkbC8LhC0mceHeerYuRi4OIYEjjBKnnx5lgnCWMEq87O0DynBwsAlYSHT/0wZpEBEwlmg+ cpQdJMwsoCjxcq8aSFhYwF3ixqprzCBhEQEPif6jmRDVbhKXVuxgB7FZBFQldh3vBbN5BXwl vl/fAbXpGqPEplVHwG7jFLCVeDtzLZjNCHTb91NrmEBsZgFxiaYvK1khbhaQWLLnPDOELSrx 8vE/VoiafIlHW/6yQSwQlDg58wnLBEaRWUjaZyEpm4WkbBbYN5oS63fpQ5QoSkzpfsgOYWtI tM6Zy44svoCRfRWjaHFqcXFuupGxXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZGYFQd3PJbdwfj6teOhxgFOBiV eHgfPIsMF2JNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTCu+RYVLgQb0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVxXv+XiuFC AumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYOTqkGRi39FzfmrmSurpPauaY/eOfPZJGyQ7knlTiuHJ3AEqnrkXIs 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boundary=001a11491644eceaef0534efbc14 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] STUN attribute 0xC057 - What is this? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 17:19:18 -0000 --001a11491644eceaef0534efbc14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not off-topic at all, actually. We're using 0xC057 for an experimental "network cost" attribute, which is described in this draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thatcher-ice-network-cost-00 This is used in order to communicate an endpoint's preference for different networks (if the endpoint is using multiple network interfaces), so that the controlling ICE endpoint can select the preferred one based on certain criteria. We can't just use the ICE candidate priority, because the "type preference" part of the priority (local, stun, relay) takes precedence over the "local preference". There are other reasons as well, which are discussed in the draft. On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote: > (Apologies in advance for the slightly off-topic question) > > I=E2=80=99ve found that my STUN server (in my WebRTC server implementatio= n) often > receives STUN Binding Requests that contain an unknown attribute type > 0xC057. This attribute is always 4-bytes long, with each of the four byt= es > being zero. > > This unknown attribute is sent by Chrome (and Opera) browsers, but > apparently never by Firefox. > > According to RFC 5389 (and IANA), STUN attribute 0xC057 is unassigned, bu= t > is in the 'Designated Expert=E2=80=99 Comprehension-Optional range. > > Does anyone know what this is? > > > Ross Finlayson > Live Networks, Inc. > http://www.live555.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --001a11491644eceaef0534efbc14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not off-topic at all, actually. We're using 0xC057 for= an experimental "network cost" attribute, which is described in = this draft:=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thatcher-ice-network-cos= t-00

This is used in order to communicate an endpoin= t's preference for different networks (if the endpoint is using multipl= e network interfaces), so that the controlling ICE endpoint can select the = preferred one based on certain criteria. We can't just use the ICE cand= idate priority, because the "type preference" part of the priorit= y (local, stun, relay) takes precedence over the "local preference&quo= t;. There are other reasons as well, which are discussed in the draft.

On Thu, Ju= n 9, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wrote:
(Apologies in advance for the= slightly off-topic question)

I=E2=80=99ve found that my STUN server (in my WebRTC server implementation)= often receives STUN Binding Requests that contain an unknown attribute typ= e 0xC057.=C2=A0 This attribute is always 4-bytes long, with each of the fou= r bytes being zero.

This unknown attribute is sent by Chrome (and Opera) browsers, but apparent= ly never by Firefox.

According to RFC 5389 (and IANA), STUN attribute 0xC057 is unassigned, but = is in the 'Designated Expert=E2=80=99 Comprehension-Optional range.

Does anyone know what this is?


Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/

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draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6oLZawCbGodE+XQzAhOWc3XJ/i3isAgAAHVICAAA9UgIAACWGAgABL1oA= Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2016 18:33:09 +0000 Message-ID: <5B5CF18D-3721-49C7-ADBA-EF5F82498DF6@cisco.com> References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6544C38E-B16B-445E-A23C-E2D14D540667@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804A3E0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804A3E0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.249.254] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5B5CF18D372149C7ADBAEF5F82498DF6ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive 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<6544C38E-B16B-445E-A23C-E2D14D540667@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804A3E0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5B5CF18D-3721-49C7-ADBA-EF5F82498DF6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5B5CF18D-3721-49C7-ADBA-EF5F82498DF6@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804AABAESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7t265YHS4wd/pTBbfLtRavL++ksWB yWPK742sHkuW/GQKYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyvjx/RN7waWnTBUXTpxga2BccYepi5GDQ0LA RGLtDrEuRk4gU0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcYJWbdf8EK4SxhlPhw5xpYA5uAhUT3P22QBhEBY4nm I0fZQcLMAooSL/eqgYSFBdwlbqy6xgwSFhHwkOg/mglRHSax+P1vNhCbRUBVouHLSUYQm1fA V+LM2iOMEJvOM0ns2fyDHSTBKWArce76ThYQmxHotu+n1jCB2MwC4hK3nsxngrhZQGLJnvPM ELaoxMvH/1ghbCWJxiVPWCFOy5fYd4kLYpegxMmZT1gmMIrOQjJpFkLVLCRVEGFNifW79CGq 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nobody Mon Jun 13 02:13:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CAD212B00F; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:13:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160613091300.12454.45121.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:13:00 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:13:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF. Title : Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Authors : Ari Keranen Christer Holmberg Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02.txt Pages : 93 Date : 2016-06-13 Abstract: This document describes a protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal for UDP-based multimedia. This protocol is called Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE). ICE makes use of the Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) protocol and its extension, Traversal Using Relay NAT (TURN). This document obsoletes RFC 5245. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 13 02:36:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B249612D1CB for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:36:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8VOhOXkBbPwW for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36F2F12D1C8 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 02:36:22 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-21-575e7e9405da Received: from ESESSHC009.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.45]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D8.57.27088.49E7E575; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:36:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC009.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.45]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:36:20 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 Thread-Index: AQHRxVcKjKpNL7Bca0SUf7N8YGV+3w== Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:36:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3845A12AA40christerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbFdV3dqXVy4wdtfghbfLtQ6MHosWfKT KYAxissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvj7odXjAW7uSoe3L/E1sDYxNnFyMkhIWAisebBfzYIW0ziwr31 QDYXh5DAEUaJiZ+62EESQgJLGCX+dMZ0MXJwsAlYSHT/0wYJiwgoSsxsecYMYgsDhSe8f8IK EbeV+HtvGjtIuYiAnsSsthCQMIuAqsSB/k1gq3gFrCTer/4F1soItPb7qTVMIDazgLjErSfz mSDOEZBYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T+w8aJAI7/cm8cIMl4C6ITl/XIQrfES8x/MZoYYLyhxcuYTlgmM wrOQTJ2FpGwWkjKIuIHE+3PzmSFsbYllC19D2foSG7+cZZwFtI1ZwFpiY0MAspIFjByrGEWL U4uTctONjPRSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQIj5+CW3wY7GF8+dzzEKMDBqMTDm3A7NlyINbGsuDL3 EKMEB7OSCO/1mrhwId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4rz+LxXDhQTSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJM HJxSDYyqClGiC05JXbuUMV8y8t8FVenLPr5VdVYFi/bdFLKXTzTQkbeVu+DfFhY/Ofm9bHX8 HdPrhjJfL/n7qK4zSJ/Odzeg7YdxcuG8H8EPuafVdHz+kNPNx5OzoEgx59X/c7mRDAdYins3 H2Gr+2EhZpB2VSByscmKv5M4Osrurd+wbf7/CUt/symxFGckGmoxFxUnAgCixM8kmAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 09:36:25 -0000 --_000_D3845A12AA40christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I=92ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02. The main changes are: * The definition of the =91ice2=92 ice option has been added * Aggressive nomination has been removed Regards, Christer --_000_D3845A12AA40christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I=92ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02.

The main changes are:

  • The definition of the =91ice2=92 ice option has been added
  • Aggr= essive nomination has been removed
Regards,

Christer
--_000_D3845A12AA40christerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 13 21:58:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9513112D103 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:58:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDdlyIaQtjx9 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56C3D12B054 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:58:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4088; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1465880314; x=1467089914; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=Mcg2EiZvTyDXeZYQrzKueX8gtMeAlIkV8ia6fECzSSY=; b=k53Ndbr2cslJZjKKCPArD17iJ2xKqdfhTf44zfGSJRf0kWWNXWkNvDvd dVkWWmiQ0nNK1YPWabMgrIKjcn5eEe2NxS6eU5Zq6kg24EIenj5KgsU35 BkLC0pvJspMyNebhmhG2Xd9YYfuWiiIza7uDVeDCQT5Dl5+uxpcSrRZQM 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BzBQC+jV9X/5pdJa1cgnBOVn0Gti6FA?= =?us-ascii?q?YF5JIVzgTU5EwEBAQEBAQFlJ4RLAQEFgQsBCAQNAwECKDkUCQoEARKIMA66dgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEGAQEBAQEBHAWKdIRghTsFjiiKOQIBhgOIJI8hj3EBHwE0g25uiQl/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,470,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="285365161" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Jun 2016 04:58:33 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5E4wXii010623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 14 Jun 2016 04:58:33 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:58:32 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-002.cisco.com ([173.37.102.12]) by XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com ([173.37.102.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:58:32 -0500 From: "Wilson Chen (weichen2)" To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 Thread-Index: AQHRxflmZ0i+9LjTqkOX99TF2UR/Vg== Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 04:58:32 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.1.160122 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.140.48.213] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D385AFB4DE8Aweichen2ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 04:58:35 -0000 --_000_D385AFB4DE8Aweichen2ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I think after removed aggressive nomination, the fast media can be achieved= through "early media", am I right? Then, shall we mention that DTLS can be "early media" as well? Like discuss= ed in this thread: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mmusic/Y19yzDAZKnS5u1yQLIpcNSX_EMA DTLS should be bound to a virtual connection instead of a real transportati= on. I think we should also add these 2 outlines to the section 20. Thanks, Wilson Chen From: Ice > on behalf of = Christer Holmberg > Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:36 PM To: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 Hi, I've submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02. The main changes are: * The definition of the 'ice2' ice option has been added * Aggressive nomination has been removed Regards, Christer --_000_D385AFB4DE8Aweichen2ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <96A3A9A5722190409723252285DAEC5E@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I think after removed aggressive nomination, the fast media can be ach= ieved through “early media”, am I right?
Then, shall we mention that DTLS can be "early media” as we= ll? Like discussed in this thread:
DTLS should be bound to a virtual connection instead of a real transpo= rtation.

I think we should also add these 2 outlines to the section 20.

Thanks,
Wilson Chen

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmb= erg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com>
Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:36= PM
To: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.= org>
Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: d= raft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02

Hi,

I’ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02.=

The main changes are:

  • The definition of the ‘ice2’ ice option has been added
    • =
  • Aggressive nomination has been removed
Regards,

Christer
 --_000_D385AFB4DE8Aweichen2ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 13 23:00:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681EB12DA3E for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:00:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oqp5PeRtcRVo for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 012FA12DA1B for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 23:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-fa-575f9d6a7ea9 Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.69]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id A6.7A.27088.A6D9F575; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 08:00:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 08:00:09 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "Wilson Chen (weichen2)" , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 Thread-Index: AQHRxflmZ0i+9LjTqkOX99TF2UR/Vp/oicuA Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 06:00:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.146] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38577ADAB15christerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7q27W3Phwg/uzRS2+Xai1OHpnMYsD k8eU3xtZPZYs+ckUwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlTH14m22gqfqFb+/7WBqYLyi1MXIwSEhYCLx 9oJPFyMnkCkmceHeejYQW0jgCKPE03OMXYxcQPYSRomrd3YxgdSzCVhIdP/TBqkREQiS2Lvo ESuILSzgJPF6+VI2iLizxNqtGxkhbCOJc1dXsYPYLAKqEheWHQOzeQWsJF703mKC2KUn8ec0 hM0poC+x5dgksF5GoHu+n1oDFmcWEJe49WQ+E8SdAhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/gd2gyjQnC/35jFC xJUkfmy4xALRGy+xuP0cI8ReQYmTM5+wTGAUnYVk7CwkZbOQlEHEDSTen5vPDGFrSyxb+BrK 1pfY+OUsUD0HkG0tcaxHGVnJAkaOVYyixanFSbnpRkZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiB8Xdwy2+D HYwvnzseYhTgYFTi4X2gEx8uxJpYVlyZe4hRgoNZSYS3YDZQiDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0 B4uSOK//S8VwIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dUA6NMnHi2yRnP8wZuPVk/fh97+Siq49iyiWlr 5qQ4Kk0qlp/isbVkD1uhYuWDyI0pPj85Us+U+xTsyPpSyqwQIjBzwWTHecGHV1/p/LpU5usX FwHPM/4NYvv5H4htsbbcPWFyZ++rPzJT1lyZun2yiLlPcqfElQM61x64/dU4422qaLSi1+5s epsSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgAmprfkuwIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 06:00:14 -0000 --_000_D38577ADAB15christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, >I think after removed aggressive nomination, the fast media can be achieve= d through =93early media=94, am I right? >Then, shall we mention that DTLS can be "early media=94 as well? Like disc= ussed in this thread: >https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mmusic/Y19yzDAZKnS5u1yQLIpcNSX_EMA >DTLS should be bound to a virtual connection instead of a real transportat= ion. > >I think we should also add these 2 outlines to the section 20. Please see section 6 of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp-13. Regards, Christer From: Ice > on behalf of = Christer Holmberg > Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:36 PM To: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 Hi, I=92ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02. The main changes are: * The definition of the =91ice2=92 ice option has been added * Aggressive nomination has been removed Regards, Christer --_000_D38577ADAB15christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <6BCD8EA784622C40911FAC6DEECCC049@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

>I think after removed aggressive nomination, the fast media can be= achieved through =93early media=94, am I right?
>Then, shall we mention that DTLS can be "early media=94 as we= ll? Like discussed in this thread:
>DTLS should be bound to a virtual connection instead of a real tra= nsportation.
>
>I think we should also add these 2 outlines to the section 20.

Please see section 6 of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp-13.

Regards,

Christer


From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmb= erg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com>
Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:36= PM
To: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.= org>
Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: d= raft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02

Hi,

I=92ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02.

The main changes are:

  • The definition of the =91ice2=92 ice option has been added
  • Aggr= essive nomination has been removed
Regards,

Christer
--_000_D38577ADAB15christerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Tue Jun 14 11:28:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F9F12D8B3 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:28:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-hp67PckNX1 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B26912D8B7 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id s186so93455372qkc.1 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:28:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JHJVeQhhkzDmPUibZ2x1ysdmdSoZXfW4SAVxvmair68=; b=GK9yWcstGUvjU2jbXqOOcrXcQ96InRjlT7/tLbBJ7xRAjSWFtUY0TrB8tIFD/bflbH q2qbyVxK1+gKiT+ueKKYWpQOicXoo74Cb0R75WrkO31Ay+VBV1NIO+2y+znto41LwGXV Rd25x98e3O9Y+AcYLkJQ7BtEnyVRplhrfhRleGw7Kn6m2RX2lXU/pKnLz0kpDKR9hr81 Qj7mAYmgaBYjHy8bP6PL2eHlSzgsw6mi+ERn/jwIc8PPKucdg1ZvO0u0QMlZDr2Gpwww bPt2m6iECuXX/3dpBpPySwAHBgUwA5Nv7bCHaIAb6j3TBXD85ASpfwOHVLbYeUNSdJuW YqCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JHJVeQhhkzDmPUibZ2x1ysdmdSoZXfW4SAVxvmair68=; b=Nt6fGolUwvWgZNgrK2UPYfNLwwxO/tiVZjTJxIpkwkA45OSyuO1Zf+psimQkWyR3jF SwmEXTSDBE8/Z2Ag/3eVuYnYSlxk1X2lbRNWydJEH0ncrfAn2EjSkTo2EB15m89ctBaJ /YyYicm4GR4+6tS6h+MslPHrf+T/ftCjMi7zNjvzULnGo9slxUheE7ENso8mPjGiOBKN S7XFPxpJjhXSgC+nqDzwAbWFSMIRKEyA0FoWxH2GyWrf1JOOjDdCkBgfCQLqvHz3IBHt hKU3cXKx105WO01xREGtInW9Uy5Sd4+EtWfVtL2yZldGcpXqMOUWCUXhK6zk9SWA0YyG v9LQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJqiXG9muAbq4MdY/fZ1JkkCWwKnstPFiXAeaYnHNAqHPkZvZuBihwV0nyj/7Lvf4XznbOVyoyJugC/6fup X-Received: by 10.233.221.130 with SMTP id r124mr16459777qkf.19.1465928914999; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:28:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.189.195 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 11:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Wilson Chen (weichen2)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0438983efa270535412c1e Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 18:28:38 -0000 --94eb2c0438983efa270535412c1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think the ICE spec needs to specify what kind of "media" can be run on top of it. It just needs a generic enough definition of "media" to allow anything. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Wilson Chen (weichen2) wrote: > Hi, > > I think after removed aggressive nomination, the fast media can be > achieved through =E2=80=9Cearly media=E2=80=9D, am I right? > Then, shall we mention that DTLS can be "early media=E2=80=9D as well? Li= ke > discussed in this thread: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mmusic/Y19yzDAZKnS5u1yQLIpcNSX_EMA > DTLS should be bound to a virtual connection instead of a real > transportation. > > I think we should also add these 2 outlines to the section 20. > > Thanks, > Wilson Chen > > From: Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> > Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:36 PM > To: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02 > > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-02. > > The main changes are: > > > - The definition of the =E2=80=98ice2=E2=80=99 ice option has been add= ed > - Aggressive nomination has been removed > > Regards, > > Christer > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --94eb2c0438983efa270535412c1e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think the ICE spec needs to specify what ki= nd of "media" can be run on top of it.=C2=A0 It just needs a gene= ric enough definition of "media" to allow anything. =C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Mon, Jun 13, 20= 16 at 9:58 PM, Wilson Chen (weichen2) <weichen2@cisco.com> = wrote:
Hi,

I think after removed aggressive nomination, the fast media can be ach= ieved through =E2=80=9Cearly media=E2=80=9D, am I right?
Then, shall we mention that DTLS can be "early media=E2=80=9D as = well? Like discussed in this thread:
DTLS should be bound to a virtual connection instead of a real transpo= rtation.

I think we should also add these 2 outlines to the section 20.

Thanks,
Wilson Chen

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf= of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 5:36= PM
To: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: d= raft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02

Hi,

I=E2=80=99ve submitted a new version (-02) of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245-0= 2.

The main changes are:

  • The definition of the =E2=80=98ice2=E2=80=99 ice option has been added<= /li>
  • Aggressive nomination has been removed
Regards,

Christer

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


--94eb2c0438983efa270535412c1e-- From nobody Wed Jun 15 23:29:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F5312D58E for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gC0nH1IIRO94 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0E2C12D1B1 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 23:28:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-0c-5762472581b3 Received: from ESESSHC018.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.72]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 31.9E.12516.62742675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:28:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC018.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:28:53 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Setting of Ta and RTP values Thread-Index: AQHRx5haGCpSoAuZRkWTELhtRrfJyA== Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:28:53 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38822AAAD7Echristerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupgkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdQ1fNPSncYOpiXotvF2odGD2WLPnJ FMAYxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVx6O8U5oIr/BVL9x1ibGBcxNvFyMkhIWAicWZxKwuELSZx4d56 ti5GLg4hgSOMEo++9bFDOEsYJR6sncLcxcjBwSZgIdH9TxukQURAUWJmyzNmEFtYQE/i6qNH TBBxY4muHaeYIWw9ibXfzzCC2CwCqhJv710Ai/MKWEmc3DYZbDEj0OLvp9aA9TILiEvcejKf CeIgAYkle84zQ9iiEi8f/2MFsUWBZn65N48R5BwJASWJaVvTIFrjJV6/+8YKMV5Q4uTMJywT GIVnIZk6C0nZLCRlEHEdiQW7P7FB2NoSyxa+Zoaxzxx4DNVrLbH8Uh8zspoFjByrGEWLU4uL c9ONjPVSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQLj5+CW37o7GFe/djzEKMDBqMTD++B8YrgQa2JZcWXuIUYJ DmYlEd4H9knhQrwpiZVVqUX58UWlOanFhxilOViUxHn9XyqGCwmkJ5akZqemFqQWwWSZODil GhgLtmXN3KTRO2VzdM91uWU3s8plz/5qvVDQxGL1xl9Ev9TXUT3m2kees+zrSm5t1/i6mbvu c11ou0DqHuFVU0T3Le2++/CgabvCC7dd24+w3fhT7nO9wjrn65Ejb5a+Lfy5yXHSrCr+FXK7 2vMuPQ3r0xLfrTXtwK3E5beXzNQKZJ46he3Jtn5uJZbijERDLeai4kQAMZqAtpsCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Setting of Ta and RTP values X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:28:59 -0000 --_000_D38822AAAD7Echristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Some time ago, we agreed to define the same procedures for setting the Ta a= nd RTO values no matter if a media is real-time or not, still allowing peop= le to use different values if they have a good reason to do so (e.g. based = on the characteristics of the media). I have created a pull request where this change has been implemented: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/5 In addition, the pull request adds a new Appendix, with figures provided by= Justin, as agreed. Regards, Christer --_000_D38822AAAD7Echristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9B7244F381B24148AECDE08511A80FFC@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Some time ago, we agreed to define the same procedures for setting the= Ta and RTO values no matter if a media is real-time or not, still allowing= people to use different values if they have a good reason to do so (e.g. b= ased on the characteristics of the media).

I have created a pull request where this change has been implemented:<= /div>


In addition, the pull request adds a new Appendix, with figures provid= ed by Justin, as agreed.

Regards,

Christer
--_000_D38822AAAD7Echristerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 00:50:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A51FE12B027 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q1Gk02nHRNaZ for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B413F12D090 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f26d00000327e-80-57625a349c35 Received: from ESESSHC018.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.72]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 90.78.12926.43A52675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:50:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC018.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:50:12 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Taylor Brandstetter , Peter Thatcher Thread-Topic: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts Thread-Index: AQHRsrMPW+cUSE0OREq9RLjfNQmSUJ/LioaAgAFQTgD///GtAIAAR2MAgB7f44A= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:50:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.146] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:50:21 -0000 --_000_D388347EAE64christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCklmIEkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCBjb3JyZWN0bHksIGZvcmtpbmcgY2FuIG9ubHkgdHJpZ2dl ciBhIHJvbGUgY2hhbmdlIHdoZW4gdGhlIG9mZmVyZXIgaXMgSUNFIGxpdGUsIGFuZCB0aGUgcmVt b3RlIHBlZXJzIGFyZSBmdWxsIGFuZCBsaXRlLg0KDQpCZWNhdXNlLCBpZiB0aGUgb2ZmZXJlciBp cyBmdWxsIElDRSwgaXQgTVVTVCB0YWtlIHRoZSBjb250cm9sbGluZyByb2xlLCBubyBtYXR0ZXIg aWYgdGhlIHJlbW90ZSBwZWVycyBhcmUgZnVsbCBvciBsaXRlLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpDaHJp c3Rlcg0KDQoNCkZyb206IFRheWxvciBCcmFuZHN0ZXR0ZXIgPGRlYWRiZWVmQGdvb2dsZS5jb208 bWFpbHRvOmRlYWRiZWVmQGdvb2dsZS5jb20+Pg0KRGF0ZTogRnJpZGF5IDI3IE1heSAyMDE2IGF0 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ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:22:54 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUQ== Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:22:53 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38875A3AF5Bchristerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupkkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbFdS1dpVlK4wa9T8hbfLtQ6MHosWfKT KYAxissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStj0dcfbAUrNCuW7j3A0sA4R6mLkZNDQsBE4tbUFawQtpjEhXvr 2boYuTiEBI4wSjRe/M8K4SxhlJjU+BvI4eBgE7CQ6P6nDdIgIqAoMbPlGTOILSygIvH7wxs2 iLimxM3jq5ggbD2JW1/fg8VZBFQlHt5bxg5i8wpYSTR83MgIYjMCLf5+ag1YPbOAuMStJ/OZ IA4SkFiy5zwzhC0q8fLxP7BDRYFmfrk3jxEiriix82w7M0RvvMSdjkVQ8wUlTs58wjKBUXgW krGzkJTNQlIGETeQeH9uPjOErS2xbOFrKFtfYuOXs4wQtrXE1SWXWJHVLGDkWMUoWpxanJSb bmSsl1qUmVxcnJ+nl5dasokRGEEHt/xW3cF4+Y3jIUYBDkYlHt4H5xPDhVgTy4orcw8xSnAw K4nw6s1MChfiTUmsrEotyo8vKs1JLT7EKM3BoiTO6/9SMVxIID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXA mD/P99oHd88LLIYmK89bvQpNXK9TmZUd7p/jopnEmG4RIKwWemNlUFaWuPuu2Pv5ju679ryf 7uxREHI03WjNRpaLz25kylqI3FhSfvFb7ASl2PmLYn7LhVcballEbTnenBDPtbT/6Y49vAJf n3D+6LocbzCbZ4mLudKHNZHFtVF5OT/kLlxSYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAg4OwM5wCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:23:02 -0000 --_000_D38875A3AF5Bchristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I=92ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know the tie-br= eaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let me know = if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draf= t needs some clarifications. Q1: The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker value=94 terminology is used throughou= t the document, but there is no clear =93tie-breaker=94 definition. Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the following = text: "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network by= te order, which contains a random number used for tie- breaking of role conflicts.=94 =85but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following text exists= in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis: =93=85, each agent MUST select a random number, called the tie-breake= r, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1 (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)." Q2: Section 6.1.2.3 says: =93The content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was determined in Section 5.1.2.=94 However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie-brea= ker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245. Q3: It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole ICE s= ession, i.e. all binding requests for all media. There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it was = indicated that this will be clarified in bis: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09708.html I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make sure = that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the tie-= breaker value is used to determine the role. Regards, Christer --_000_D38875A3AF5Bchristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <365E3480DF37104998DFD41C04A7C69B@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I=92ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know the t= ie-breaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let me = know if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis= -draft needs some clarifications.


Q1: 

The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker value=94 terminology is used thro= ughout the document, but there is no clear =93tie-breaker=94 definition.

Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the follo= wing text:

   "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned i= nteger in network byte order, which contains a random number used for tie-<= /div>
   breaking of role conflicts.=94

=85but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following text e= xists in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis:

      =93=85, each agent MUST select a random number, c= alled the tie-breaker, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1
      (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)."


Q2:

Section 6.1.2.3 says:

   =93The content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breake= r that was
   determined in Section 5.1.2.=94

However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie= -breaker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245.


Q3:

It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole = ICE session, i.e. all binding requests for all media.

There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it= was indicated that this will be clarified in bis:


I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make = sure that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the= tie-breaker value is used to determine the role.


Regards,

Christer

--_000_D38875A3AF5Bchristerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:34:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8663C12D108 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:34:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ul7rrtTuFWP2 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BBF512D0FC for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f26d00000327e-28-5762aae794e9 Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.87]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 44.75.12926.7EAA2675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:34:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:34:08 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Emil Ivov , Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: [Ice] Check lists and trickling Thread-Index: AQHRlHXdfFJuTRJlt0yvJ21guJrCJJ+Fp7uAgAFDp4CAABD9gIAAPR4AgD/0XICAJWKBgA== Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:34:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-ID: <233874D3CC73994D9D593D7B1D8F3BA3@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7uO7zVUnhBq8XSVis2TmBxeLbhVqL rVOFHJg9Fmwq9Viy5CeTx/83gQHMUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZM3fuZy84ZFbx5Mlx1gbGQ+pd jJwcEgImEu27+pkhbDGJC/fWs3UxcnEICRxhlLi78T6Us4RRYun8AyxdjBwcbAIWEt3/tEEa RAScJa5M+MEGEmYWUJR4uVcNJCwsoCPR8m49M0SJrsTZzfPZIewwiaXty9lAbBYBVYmnfa8Y QWxeASuJs9Nns0Ksms8sMXflZBaQBKeArcTa089YQWxGoOO+n1rDBGIzC4hL3HoynwniaAGJ JXvOQz0gKvHy8T+welEBPYkv9+YxQsQVJa5OX84EcaeBxL8NzBBjrCUezNnJDmFrSyxb+JoZ 4h5BiZMzn7BMYJSYhWTbLITuWUi6ZyHpnoWkewEj6ypG0eLU4qTcdCNjvdSizOTi4vw8vbzU kk2MwHg8uOW36g7Gy28cDzEKcDAq8fA+OJ8YLsSaWFZcmXuIUYKDWUmEN3x5UrgQb0piZVVq UX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVxXv+XiuFCAumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYOTqkGRtnfD4+udt1/4xGvy59m q+35+hbsL97+yuBL0Xbflz2J+7imfrpt046Xe6YwZhxmf5y1+VF76KZZ+zh+xF/+mB+1ouq1 o8HiRd7SDEYssU7OYVoWn9XkbnnMTv7jWBa1xJc54MadoCslhl845NzWnih95Wkdd6Zbfu7p s7Zb3+tcd0pQurt3vhJLcUaioRZzUXEiAOleiY3DAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Check lists and trickling X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:34:36 -0000 Hi, Just to clarify: I assume the referenced sections are in RFC 5245, right? Because, they don=92t exist in draft-5245bis :) Regards, Christer On 24/05/16 00:43, "Ice on behalf of Emil Ivov" wrote: >Hey Justin, > >Many apologies for missing this one! I hadn't seen it until I explicitly >went to check my mailbox for updates on this thread. > >So, I've gone over the text again and I can see what you mean. I think >however that this is a contradiction in 5245 and that it goes against >the intention of the freezing algorithm so we should probably fix it in >5245bis. > >Specifically, I think that section 5.7.4 and later section 7... are more >accurate in the description of the freezing algorithm. > >5.7.4 describes the initial situation: > > >The agent examines the check list for the first media stream. >For that media stream: > * For all pairs with the same foundation, it sets the >state of the pair with the lowest component ID to Waiting. > > >(note how this only unfreezes a single pair per foundation) > >Then in 7.1.3.2.3 as we progress and update states we have the same >foundation-based reasoning. Specifically as we validate pairs we will >unfreeze certain foundations (and only foundations) of other frozen >checklists: > > >7.1.3.2.3. >subpoint 1. The agent changes the states for all other Frozen pairs for >the same media stream *and same foundation* to Waiting. > > >Then once we validate an entire foundation of a given stream we will >only unfreeze the same foundation (and only that foundation) of other >streams: > > >7.1.3.2.3. >subpoint 2. If there is a pair in the valid list for every component of > this media stream. The agent examines the check list for each > other media stream in turn : > * the state of all pairs in the check list whose foundation > matches a pair in the valid list under consideration is set to > Waiting > > >This also complies with the non-normative text in 2.4: > > > The > other candidate pairs are marked "frozen". When the connectivity > checks for a candidate pair succeed, the other candidate pairs with > *the same foundation are unfrozen*. > > >And then: > > > This *avoids* (Emil: not delays) repeated checking of > components that are superficially more attractive but in fact are > likely to fail. > > >So, as incredibly convoluted as this all may sound I do think that it >makes more sense than the generic statement in 5.8. > >If we were to accept the statement in 5.8 it would create race >conditions that might even get candidates that should be frozen to be >checked before unfrozen ones ... it would be a mess. > >Do you see what I mean? > >Emil > > > >On 13.04.16 =E3. 0:04, Justin Uberti wrote: >> reading 5.8, the algo indicates that for an active checklist, you check >> the highest-prio pair in the waiting state, and if there is none, you >> check the highest-prio frozen pair, thereby unfreezing it. This repeats >> on each timer tick. >> >> Basically, once a checklist is active, you will soon end up checking all >> of its pairs. What am I missing? >> >> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Emil Ivov > > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, Justin Uberti > > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Emil Ivov >>wrote: >> >> Hey Justin, >> >> On Monday, 11 April 2016, Justin Uberti >> wrote: >> >> In BA, I noted that unfreezing the candidate pairs >> associated with a candidate that arrives for a media >> stream other than the first one will cause all of that >> stream's candidate pairs to unfreeze, due to the rules >> in S 5.8 >>(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.8). >> >> >> I may be missing your point but I don't think there's >> anything in 5245 (5.8 or elsewhere) that ever unfreezes all >> the pairs in a checklist in one go. >> >> >> It's not that the checklist unfreezes all at once - it's that >> once you unfreeze any pair in a checklist, the algo in 5.8 will >> necessarily unfreeze the entire checklist in short order. That >> defeats the purpose of a frozen checklist (i.e., you'll end up >> checking both streams in parallel). >> >> >> I really don't think that's the case (and if you are saying what I >> think you are saying then freezing would have been pointless even in >> vanilla ice) >> >> Could you please point to the specific text that's bothering you? >> >> The whole idea about unfreezing is that it happens along a >> foundation and across lists. There are many cases where you >> would unfreeze some candidates in a checklist (either because it was >> their turn or because their entire foundation got unfrozen) but >> other pairs in the same check list would remain frozen till ICE >> completes. >> >> Emil >> >> >> >> There's text that talks about activating a check list and >> there's text that unfreezes an entire foundation actoss all >> check lists but neither of them should be an issue with >> Peter's suggestion >> >> I do agree with the rest of the mail here ... I just don't >> think any of it is a problem. >> >> Emil >> >> >> Someone mentioned that there was only a single check >> list, which would make this a non-issue. However, I >> checked and indeed each stream is supposed to have its >> own check list (ignoring bundle), as described in S 5.7 >> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.7). >> >> >> >> >> >> Therefore, while this concern of prematurely unfreezing >> check lists isn't an issue for candidates that arrive >> for a different component (since they share a check >> list), I think it is an issue for candidates that arrive >> for different m=3D lines, and as such I'm not sure this >> new unfreezing behavior is the correct solution in these >> cases. >> >> >> >> -- >> sent from my mobile >> >> >> >> >> -- >> sent from my mobile >> >> > >--=20 >https://jitsi.org > >_______________________________________________ >Ice mailing list >Ice@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:59:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA4612D625 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOgkzoAlDIVE for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22f.google.com (mail-yw0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B099012D66A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id c72so43284109ywb.1 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cZ/y4acqYSQArhmshzL84HWgnpM/WH9DKtQewOPfdeM=; b=nMcq3j/cnv3BKFWMWbLw3pMEKlR/lF4qCghFAp3LDDJdXGx3+AdAtXLRO0X/Bmwb9l ef/FPkUrI8sX6x/vuz3rdJz5K9LM0yHV9JG7SE7wkCcATcDygg3TzEMGaPmknhONb+iN wcdEB3sgcDb2fvHnl/vh9iXRT8AIcZPWkNzCt1oOSKZ7My+HsOv8WJ7wxNcX+O5v2vVA 9FLr4TaOCbmNwAYHPCkzin1Tj5tmejZTC3Eb5mtiV1kuJHRulh/sbUSzYZSb0dtaRszB sp8rsIiOmh/ksDmFNEZzabHm9kIwzjuol1Sz40Vp/1YNK5maUGV3nr1Nf+C68RRvVlvo 47fw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cZ/y4acqYSQArhmshzL84HWgnpM/WH9DKtQewOPfdeM=; b=U/7jkNicqFrjqE5SbzgeXhfaD2dyVNe/Ej7nBKHC9ztPV/b5KN7CHtwX/HPET3vt1o DDEFBLZpjMmpxnYUH5I6pJC7tLp4WZWZgcsvrgilOfcasFBRmBbtKquIQXDs4d9RuWBs 9+arjPgG2jyW5qTl1M1Xh3kfsqiDFqQVHUnQLpBeaFD/FRon9h+xyvuMaJX7rcqoO8su zzDKeWD3Td/cdlv4nt6iFbO6dNY+jmwEYUb1zW6T4s4jTSDB7p6AVr+AAebsDUjP/osx kZSxDuQ4tlBFCyN5R8KszxLjGzGtzAeR3+k4e00XbVF51DVlXMdMErmHGNu6uxV5D5CJ zqdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI3/J4EG+3Bo4wLOFqNxKjmI88fzT8CA20UP92bDqgi/eyv1aM3ZhM/R/l0e+olkQ== X-Received: by 10.37.36.65 with SMTP id k62mr2656679ybk.42.1466085589749; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f181.google.com (mail-yw0-f181.google.com. [209.85.161.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i129sm21771922ywd.35.2016.06.16.06.59.49 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-f181.google.com with SMTP id g20so43573019ywb.0 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.13.198.5 with SMTP id i5mr2784889ywd.263.1466085589253; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.83.35.205 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Emil Ivov Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:59:29 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Justin Uberti Subject: Re: [Ice] Check lists and trickling X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:59:53 -0000 Hey Christer, Yes they are! Emil On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > Just to clarify: I assume the referenced sections are in RFC 5245, right? > Because, they don=E2=80=99t exist in draft-5245bis :) > > Regards, > > Christer > > On 24/05/16 00:43, "Ice on behalf of Emil Ivov" behalf of emcho@jitsi.org> wrote: > >>Hey Justin, >> >>Many apologies for missing this one! I hadn't seen it until I explicitly >>went to check my mailbox for updates on this thread. >> >>So, I've gone over the text again and I can see what you mean. I think >>however that this is a contradiction in 5245 and that it goes against >>the intention of the freezing algorithm so we should probably fix it in >>5245bis. >> >>Specifically, I think that section 5.7.4 and later section 7... are more >>accurate in the description of the freezing algorithm. >> >>5.7.4 describes the initial situation: >> >> >>The agent examines the check list for the first media stream. >>For that media stream: >> * For all pairs with the same foundation, it sets the >>state of the pair with the lowest component ID to Waiting. >> >> >>(note how this only unfreezes a single pair per foundation) >> >>Then in 7.1.3.2.3 as we progress and update states we have the same >>foundation-based reasoning. Specifically as we validate pairs we will >>unfreeze certain foundations (and only foundations) of other frozen >>checklists: >> >> >>7.1.3.2.3. >>subpoint 1. The agent changes the states for all other Frozen pairs for >>the same media stream *and same foundation* to Waiting. >> >> >>Then once we validate an entire foundation of a given stream we will >>only unfreeze the same foundation (and only that foundation) of other >>streams: >> >> >>7.1.3.2.3. >>subpoint 2. If there is a pair in the valid list for every component of >> this media stream. The agent examines the check list for each >> other media stream in turn : >> * the state of all pairs in the check list whose foundation >> matches a pair in the valid list under consideration is set to >> Waiting >> >> >>This also complies with the non-normative text in 2.4: >> >> >> The >> other candidate pairs are marked "frozen". When the connectivity >> checks for a candidate pair succeed, the other candidate pairs with >> *the same foundation are unfrozen*. >> >> >>And then: >> >> >> This *avoids* (Emil: not delays) repeated checking of >> components that are superficially more attractive but in fact are >> likely to fail. >> >> >>So, as incredibly convoluted as this all may sound I do think that it >>makes more sense than the generic statement in 5.8. >> >>If we were to accept the statement in 5.8 it would create race >>conditions that might even get candidates that should be frozen to be >>checked before unfrozen ones ... it would be a mess. >> >>Do you see what I mean? >> >>Emil >> >> >> >>On 13.04.16 =D0=B3. 0:04, Justin Uberti wrote: >>> reading 5.8, the algo indicates that for an active checklist, you check >>> the highest-prio pair in the waiting state, and if there is none, you >>> check the highest-prio frozen pair, thereby unfreezing it. This repeats >>> on each timer tick. >>> >>> Basically, once a checklist is active, you will soon end up checking al= l >>> of its pairs. What am I missing? >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Emil Ivov >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, Justin Uberti >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Emil Ivov >>>wrote: >>> >>> Hey Justin, >>> >>> On Monday, 11 April 2016, Justin Uberti >>> wrote: >>> >>> In BA, I noted that unfreezing the candidate pairs >>> associated with a candidate that arrives for a media >>> stream other than the first one will cause all of that >>> stream's candidate pairs to unfreeze, due to the rules >>> in S 5.8 >>>(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.8). >>> >>> >>> I may be missing your point but I don't think there's >>> anything in 5245 (5.8 or elsewhere) that ever unfreezes all >>> the pairs in a checklist in one go. >>> >>> >>> It's not that the checklist unfreezes all at once - it's that >>> once you unfreeze any pair in a checklist, the algo in 5.8 will >>> necessarily unfreeze the entire checklist in short order. That >>> defeats the purpose of a frozen checklist (i.e., you'll end up >>> checking both streams in parallel). >>> >>> >>> I really don't think that's the case (and if you are saying what I >>> think you are saying then freezing would have been pointless even i= n >>> vanilla ice) >>> >>> Could you please point to the specific text that's bothering you? >>> >>> The whole idea about unfreezing is that it happens along a >>> foundation and across lists. There are many cases where you >>> would unfreeze some candidates in a checklist (either because it wa= s >>> their turn or because their entire foundation got unfrozen) but >>> other pairs in the same check list would remain frozen till ICE >>> completes. >>> >>> Emil >>> >>> >>> >>> There's text that talks about activating a check list and >>> there's text that unfreezes an entire foundation actoss all >>> check lists but neither of them should be an issue with >>> Peter's suggestion >>> >>> I do agree with the rest of the mail here ... I just don't >>> think any of it is a problem. >>> >>> Emil >>> >>> >>> Someone mentioned that there was only a single check >>> list, which would make this a non-issue. However, I >>> checked and indeed each stream is supposed to have its >>> own check list (ignoring bundle), as described in S 5.7 >>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.7). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Therefore, while this concern of prematurely unfreezing >>> check lists isn't an issue for candidates that arrive >>> for a different component (since they share a check >>> list), I think it is an issue for candidates that arriv= e >>> for different m=3D lines, and as such I'm not sure this >>> new unfreezing behavior is the correct solution in thes= e >>> cases. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> sent from my mobile >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> sent from my mobile >>> >>> >> >>-- >>https://jitsi.org >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Ice mailing list >>Ice@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --=20 https://jitsi.org From nobody Thu Jun 16 07:03:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE86412D0CE for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:03:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZzRyocYmUbP for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22A4712B020 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-b5-5762b1bf5edc Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.30]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B2.A3.12516.FB1B2675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC004.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.30]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:03:42 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Emil Ivov Thread-Topic: [Ice] Check lists and trickling Thread-Index: AQHRlHXdfFJuTRJlt0yvJ21guJrCJJ+Fp7uAgAFDp4CAABD9gIAAPR4AgD/0XICAJWKBgP//08yAgAA0doA= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:03:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.146] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-ID: <64C8CD871C49D748899033E1CDDE3991@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrIIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7nO7+jUnhBs/3yFus2TmBxeLbhVqL rVOFHJg9Fmwq9Viy5CeTx/83gQHMUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZUx9MYCp4aVOx/vMFlgbGLt0u Rk4OCQETicZlPewQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4wSuz5dZMVwlnCKPHm6HegDAcHm4CFRPc/bZAG EQF5ie62RUwgNrOAq8SXfTeZQWxhAR2JlnfrmSFqdCXObp7PDmEnSXw78xEsziKgKnHh/CMW EJtXwEpi1dvrUIuns0jsuHQBrIhTIFCi6cQSVhCbEei676fWQC0Tl7j1ZD4TxNUCEkv2nGeG sEUlXj7+B1YvKqAn8eXePEaIuJLEjw2XWEDuZxYwkPi3gRlijLXE40N7oGxtiWULXzND3CMo cXLmE5YJjBKzkGybhdA9C0n3LCTds5B0L2BkXcUoWpxaXJybbmSsl1qUmVxcnJ+nl5dasokR GJEHt/zW3cG4+rXjIUYBDkYlHt4H5xPDhVgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwHtiQFC7Em5JYWZValB9f VJqTWnyIUZqDRUmc1/+lYriQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qBMSPjmjrn1bDA9qd6knlb5uyR r3jtJXll7iEv81VTzT58XZub9G9KZzubmGr/6zXPgz6dO8rxKruiIzYxxmLDpuV3H0qxa5zq ndj17pPE8ZBkEQm1fJvdnt5/s6u5w/f5hG3YPMuYRb7vfW3ZNYM30g8Npn0JyfB+1xdf//H7 +SDv/D1H5xRuVWIpzkg01GIuKk4EAEbiQmTEAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Justin Uberti Subject: Re: [Ice] Check lists and trickling X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:03:49 -0000 So, what are the corresponding 5245bis sections? :) Regards, Christer On 16/06/16 16:59, "Emil Ivov" wrote: >Hey Christer, > >Yes they are! > >Emil > >On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Just to clarify: I assume the referenced sections are in RFC 5245, >>right? >> Because, they don=92t exist in draft-5245bis :) >> >> Regards, >> >> Christer >> >> On 24/05/16 00:43, "Ice on behalf of Emil Ivov" > behalf of emcho@jitsi.org> wrote: >> >>>Hey Justin, >>> >>>Many apologies for missing this one! I hadn't seen it until I explicitly >>>went to check my mailbox for updates on this thread. >>> >>>So, I've gone over the text again and I can see what you mean. I think >>>however that this is a contradiction in 5245 and that it goes against >>>the intention of the freezing algorithm so we should probably fix it in >>>5245bis. >>> >>>Specifically, I think that section 5.7.4 and later section 7... are more >>>accurate in the description of the freezing algorithm. >>> >>>5.7.4 describes the initial situation: >>> >>> >>>The agent examines the check list for the first media stream. >>>For that media stream: >>> * For all pairs with the same foundation, it sets the >>>state of the pair with the lowest component ID to Waiting. >>> >>> >>>(note how this only unfreezes a single pair per foundation) >>> >>>Then in 7.1.3.2.3 as we progress and update states we have the same >>>foundation-based reasoning. Specifically as we validate pairs we will >>>unfreeze certain foundations (and only foundations) of other frozen >>>checklists: >>> >>> >>>7.1.3.2.3. >>>subpoint 1. The agent changes the states for all other Frozen pairs for >>>the same media stream *and same foundation* to Waiting. >>> >>> >>>Then once we validate an entire foundation of a given stream we will >>>only unfreeze the same foundation (and only that foundation) of other >>>streams: >>> >>> >>>7.1.3.2.3. >>>subpoint 2. If there is a pair in the valid list for every component of >>> this media stream. The agent examines the check list for each >>> other media stream in turn : >>> * the state of all pairs in the check list whose foundation >>> matches a pair in the valid list under consideration is set to >>> Waiting >>> >>> >>>This also complies with the non-normative text in 2.4: >>> >>> >>> The >>> other candidate pairs are marked "frozen". When the connectivity >>> checks for a candidate pair succeed, the other candidate pairs with >>> *the same foundation are unfrozen*. >>> >>> >>>And then: >>> >>> >>> This *avoids* (Emil: not delays) repeated checking of >>> components that are superficially more attractive but in fact are >>> likely to fail. >>> >>> >>>So, as incredibly convoluted as this all may sound I do think that it >>>makes more sense than the generic statement in 5.8. >>> >>>If we were to accept the statement in 5.8 it would create race >>>conditions that might even get candidates that should be frozen to be >>>checked before unfrozen ones ... it would be a mess. >>> >>>Do you see what I mean? >>> >>>Emil >>> >>> >>> >>>On 13.04.16 =E3. 0:04, Justin Uberti wrote: >>>> reading 5.8, the algo indicates that for an active checklist, you >>>>check >>>> the highest-prio pair in the waiting state, and if there is none, you >>>> check the highest-prio frozen pair, thereby unfreezing it. This >>>>repeats >>>> on each timer tick. >>>> >>>> Basically, once a checklist is active, you will soon end up checking >>>>all >>>> of its pairs. What am I missing? >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Emil Ivov >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, Justin Uberti >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Emil Ivov >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>> Hey Justin, >>>> >>>> On Monday, 11 April 2016, Justin Uberti >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> In BA, I noted that unfreezing the candidate pairs >>>> associated with a candidate that arrives for a media >>>> stream other than the first one will cause all of that >>>> stream's candidate pairs to unfreeze, due to the rules >>>> in S 5.8 >>>>(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.8). >>>> >>>> >>>> I may be missing your point but I don't think there's >>>> anything in 5245 (5.8 or elsewhere) that ever unfreezes >>>>all >>>> the pairs in a checklist in one go. >>>> >>>> >>>> It's not that the checklist unfreezes all at once - it's that >>>> once you unfreeze any pair in a checklist, the algo in 5.8 >>>>will >>>> necessarily unfreeze the entire checklist in short order. That >>>> defeats the purpose of a frozen checklist (i.e., you'll end up >>>> checking both streams in parallel). >>>> >>>> >>>> I really don't think that's the case (and if you are saying what I >>>> think you are saying then freezing would have been pointless even >>>>in >>>> vanilla ice) >>>> >>>> Could you please point to the specific text that's bothering you? >>>> >>>> The whole idea about unfreezing is that it happens along a >>>> foundation and across lists. There are many cases where you >>>> would unfreeze some candidates in a checklist (either because it >>>>was >>>> their turn or because their entire foundation got unfrozen) but >>>> other pairs in the same check list would remain frozen till ICE >>>> completes. >>>> >>>> Emil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There's text that talks about activating a check list and >>>> there's text that unfreezes an entire foundation actoss >>>>all >>>> check lists but neither of them should be an issue with >>>> Peter's suggestion >>>> >>>> I do agree with the rest of the mail here ... I just don't >>>> think any of it is a problem. >>>> >>>> Emil >>>> >>>> >>>> Someone mentioned that there was only a single check >>>> list, which would make this a non-issue. However, I >>>> checked and indeed each stream is supposed to have its >>>> own check list (ignoring bundle), as described in S >>>>5.7 >>>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.7). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Therefore, while this concern of prematurely >>>>unfreezing >>>> check lists isn't an issue for candidates that arrive >>>> for a different component (since they share a check >>>> list), I think it is an issue for candidates that >>>>arrive >>>> for different m=3D lines, and as such I'm not sure thi= s >>>> new unfreezing behavior is the correct solution in >>>>these >>>> cases. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> sent from my mobile >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> sent from my mobile >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>https://jitsi.org >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Ice mailing list >>>Ice@ietf.org >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> > > > >--=20 >https://jitsi.org From nobody Thu Jun 16 09:28:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C986712D56D for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ChG98JXijI7j for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x232.google.com (mail-yw0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0145B12B040 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x232.google.com with SMTP id c72so47550284ywb.1 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GwKLOJ0TdTCfp+0H98ZigHxOdXOdXYyUMlVM/DNJW6w=; b=HFGIkHCLZd8lM14IotdQH+HUMNVlf9rLMSn/lSHOtUIpnT6PpsoHHRPISS+BaCeDFz Zutf9e0be9sJ1zKEn4niJXC0bvrzpFbe1x7VK3zdX2gIXSBIY9BeA7oQ4a3UiTJ0Eedk UQVA995vro+WgH2CC7nRDwAbWA/reqHF0W/kA7nQ8AiWtESsdOcHilC/lIaRySNBbn+D X0g53WMeiIKGGVzZ061Z60+syvXyMWANtxtxLs+W5QXUCr2vCulLeADE3Ll6cUmoMDZG JPbczbnozYZnL3hnGIbs1rZEmbqQnWfXRZMhHJgg4oYDTR6dG3wI+kpLmx+0em+j+hzb ZVVw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GwKLOJ0TdTCfp+0H98ZigHxOdXOdXYyUMlVM/DNJW6w=; b=nKhQ2Tj0kMMn3XfHjh/gxRFHb26jJr+ip1VAoumn0UMh/23JWsgYU0lO3DpMoJ6Xcu FzUUaFhw6zBQFMwVzQjOioyue4pRAcPtjMfnsoOa5PjLBw36bkFnFbOLRi0nky8wcguI DY4VcxEUIbvDCeZjKpM/2ouyXBqSAjigiCi26ds98svhU7kHMk3l9Dwo0ytlNWYcIrQf wiokfXjb1OBvo3uFqXzO32pPLlVQxarhcEUA5SB+OiHz4A1+6dHegNF9WsepNXzXz7dL 57d4xenw15N+rV9SZA3l3cQkvCvxShIof260k3YtloSaISUy9RF+nuOQS3pc7ZrCk94w vraA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLU7i1NQcRRGPNgGVi1GC2rBdFq9z9kXA4uJ7MOQW3a3O8sEm8YcogWX2UlESlNQ02gVyOTljlOY17MJ4MU X-Received: by 10.37.98.141 with SMTP id w135mr3131490ybb.9.1466094502925; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.233.194 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:28:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142847e0e5648053567ba5f Archived-At: Cc: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:28:27 -0000 --001a1142847e0e5648053567ba5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I understand correctly, your point is that changing from "full -> full" to "full -> lite" would not require a role change, because the offering endpoint would already have the "controlling" role? However, there are still situations where the "full" peer could end up with a "controlled" role, such as: 1. The full peer being transferred to the lite peer was the answerer initially. 2. Both endpoints in the initial offer/answer exchange believed themselves to be the offerer (or answerer), leaving the initial role decision up to the tie-breaker. 3. The offer->answer direction is reversed in the second exchange. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > If I understand correctly, forking can only trigger a role change when th= e > offerer is ICE lite, and the remote peers are full and lite. > > Because, if the offerer is full ICE, it MUST take the controlling role, n= o > matter if the remote peers are full or lite. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > From: Taylor Brandstetter > Date: Friday 27 May 2016 at 22:24 > To: "pthatcher@google.com" > Cc: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" < > ice@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts > > Yes, sequential forking is the main use case. Specifically, it seems that > the ability to switch ICE roles was intended for the third-party call > control use cases described here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725 > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Peter Thatcher > wrote: > >> Sequential forking, I believe. >> >> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> What use-cases are there for a full->lite switch? When an endpoint >>> realises that it=E2=80=99s no longer behind a NAT, and doesn=E2=80=99t = want to use full ICE? >>> >>> As far as I understand, ICE-lite is meant for =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D = network boxes >>> (gateways etc) that are not located behind a NAT. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Ice on behalf of "pthatcher@google.com" < >>> pthatcher@google.com> >>> Date: Thursday 26 May 2016 at 22:56 >>> To: Taylor Brandstetter >>> Cc: "ice@ietf.org" >>> Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter < >>> deadbeef@google.com> wrote: >>> >>>> While investigating a WebRTC issue related to ICE role conflicts, I >>>> noticed what seem to be some minor oddities with the rules surrounding= ICE >>>> role determination. I'd like to hear what people think about these iss= ues, >>>> and find out if I'm overlooking any motivations for the current rules. >>>> >>>> 1. Section 5.1.2, Determining Role states "An ICE restart causes a >>>> new selection of roles and tiebreakers". The only time this is nece= ssary, >>>> as far as I can tell, is when an agent is changing its implementati= on level >>>> (such as "full -> lite") and one agent *needs* to take up the >>>> controlling role. So it would be ideal if this was the only situati= on that >>>> caused new role selection. Otherwise, in a third-party call control= use >>>> case that resulted in a role conflict initially, *every* ICE >>>> restart will probably result in another role conflict, as the agent= s >>>> re-select their initial conflicting roles. Also, what happens if IC= E is >>>> restarting for only one media stream and the role changes according= to this >>>> rule? From the perspective of the non-restarting media streams, the= role >>>> would be switching in the middle of ICE processing. >>>> >>>> =E2=80=8BI think that the two rules in the spec of "must change role" = and "role >>> must be the same for all media streams" is bad combination, and I assum= e a >>> mistake in RFC5245 that no one noticed before. Changing the role of th= e >>> non-restarted media streams is unnecessary and can only lead to problem= s. >>> But rather than have to have per-media-stream roles (relaxing the secon= d >>> rule), I think it would be easier to not change the role with an ICE >>> restart (in other words, relax the first rule). As you point out, ther= e >>> really isn't any reason to except if the remote side moves from full to >>> lite, which can be handled with a specific rule rather than a general "= must >>> always change" rule. >>> >>> So, I agree with changing the rule from "always change the role for all >>> media streams when any stream is restarted" to "never change the role >>> except when the remote implementation level switches to a lite >>> implementation".=E2=80=8B >>> >>> >>>> >>>> 1. Also, why select a new tiebreaker? I don't see any real issue >>>> with this, but it seems pointless. >>>> >>>> I also don't see a point, and would be in favor of not requiring it to >>> change, if we can't think of a good reason to require it to change. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> 1. There's nothing that says "when changing implementation level, >>>> you MUST restart ICE for *all* media streams". This requirement >>>> existed in draft 13 of ICE, but then there was a bunch of restructu= ring and >>>> I think it may have been removed accidentally. Regardless, I believ= e this >>>> condition should be added back, because changing implementation lev= el in >>>> the middle of ICE processing for a media stream doesn't make much s= ense. >>>> >>>> If the implementation level must be the same for all media streams (an= d >>> it must be, right?), then I think you're right that we should require a= n >>> ICE restart for all the media streams when the implementation level >>> changes. Otherwise, as you say, a given media stream will have the rem= ote >>> implementation level change without a restart, which seems problematic. >>> And I don't see any reason why you wouldn't restart all media streams w= hen >>> you change the implementation level (presumably you're talking to a >>> different endpoint anyway). >>> >>> >>>> >>>> 1. Section 6.1.3.1, Failure Cases states that when receiving a >>>> "role conflict" error response, "the agent MUST switch to the >>>> (controlling|controlled) role if it has not already done so". The c= ondition >>>> "if it has not already done so", if interpreted literally, means th= at the >>>> agent can only switch to a role once. I don't think this was the in= tention, >>>> so the condition can probably be removed. It's worth noting that th= is >>>> condition doesn't exist in Section 6.2.1.1, Detecting and Repairing= Role >>>> Conflicts. >>>> >>>> =E2=80=8BI agree that it should be more clear, and would be with your = suggested >>> text change. >>> =E2=80=8B >>> >>>> >>>> 1. Starting to really stretch here, but in the rare situation where >>>> there's a role conflict and the tie-breakers are equal, the peers c= ould >>>> continue flipping between roles ad infinitum. Why not just generate= a new >>>> tie-breaker? I saw that this was once brought up on the MMUSIC mail= ing list >>>> but I couldn't find a response. >>>> >>>> =E2=80=8BIt seems so rare as to not matter. But if it would make you = and >>> others feel more comfortable, I'd be fine with that logic.=E2=80=8B >>> >>> >>> >>>> If there's general agreement about these points, I'll happily write >>>> some pull requests for ICEbis. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ice mailing list >>>> Ice@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>> >>> >> > --001a1142847e0e5648053567ba5f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If I understand correctly, your point is that changing fro= m "full -> full" to "full -> lite" would not requ= ire a role change, because the offering endpoint would already have the &qu= ot;controlling" role?

However, there are still situ= ations where the "full" peer could end up with a "controlled= " role, such as:
  1. The full peer being transferred to = the lite peer was the answerer initially.
  2. Both endpoints in the ini= tial offer/answer exchange believed themselves to be the offerer (or answer= er), leaving the initial role decision up to the tie-breaker.
  3. The o= ffer->answer direction is reversed in the second exchange.

On Thu, J= un 16, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

If I understand correctly, forking can only trigger a role change when= the offerer is ICE lite, and the remote peers are full and lite.

Because, if the offerer is full ICE, it MUST take the controlling role= , no matter if the remote peers are full or lite.

Regards,

Christer


From: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com= >
Date: Friday 27 May 2016 at 22:24 To: "pthatcher@google.com" <pthatcher@google.com= >
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmb= erg@ericsson.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related t= o ICE role switching and conflicts

Yes, sequential forking is the main use case. Specifically= , it seems that the ability to switch ICE roles was intended for the third-= party call control use cases described here: https://t= ools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Peter Thatcher = <pthatcher@goo= gle.com> wrote:
Sequential forking, I believe.

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Christer Holmbe= rg <chr= ister.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

What use-cases are there for a full->lite switch? When an endpoint = realises that it=E2=80=99s no longer behind a NAT, and doesn=E2=80=99t want= to use full ICE?

As far as I understand, ICE-lite is meant for =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D= network boxes (gateways etc) that are not located behind a NAT.

Regards,

Christer



From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf= of "pthatch= er@google.com" <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Thursday 26 May 2016 at 22:56=
To: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com&g= t;
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related t= o ICE role switching and conflicts



On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Taylor Brandste= tter <deadbeef@googl= e.com> wrote:
While investigating a WebRTC issue related to ICE role con= flicts, I noticed what seem to be some minor oddities with the rules surrou= nding ICE role determination. I'd like to hear what people think about = these issues, and find out if I'm overlooking any motivations for the current rules.
  1. Section 5.1.2, Determining Role states "An ICE restart causes a ne= w selection of roles and tiebreakers". The only time this is necessary= , as far as I can tell, is when an agent is changing its implementation lev= el (such as "full -> lite") and one agent needs=C2=A0to take up the controlling role.=C2=A0So it would be idea= l if this was the only situation that caused new role selection. Otherwise,= in a third-party call control use case that resulted in a role conflict in= itially, every=C2=A0ICE restart will probably result in another role conflict= , as the agents re-select their initial conflicting roles. Also, what happe= ns if ICE is restarting for only one media stream and the role changes acco= rding to this rule? From the perspective of the non-restarting media streams, the role would be switching in the mi= ddle of ICE processing.
=E2=80=8BI think that the two rules in the spec of "must change rol= e" and "role must be the same for all media streams" is bad = combination, and I assume a mistake in RFC5245 that no one noticed before.=C2=A0 Changing the role of the non-restarted media streams is unne= cessary and can only lead to problems. =C2=A0 But rather than have to have = per-media-stream roles (relaxing the second rule), I think it would be easi= er to not change the role with an ICE restart (in other words, relax the first rule).=C2=A0 As you point out, there real= ly isn't any reason to except if the remote side moves from full to lit= e, which can be handled with a specific rule rather than a general "mu= st always change" rule.

So, I agree with changing the rule from "always change the role for= all media streams when any stream is restarted" to "never change= the role except when the remote implementation level switches to a lite implementation".=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
  1. Also, why select a new tiebreaker? I don't see any real issue with = this, but it seems pointless.
I also don't see a point, and would be in favor of not requiring it = to change, if we can't think of a good reason to require it to change.<= /div>
=C2=A0
  1. There's nothing that says "when changing implementation level,= you MUST restart ICE for all media streams". This requirement existed in draft 13 of ICE= , but then there was a bunch of restructuring and I think it may have been = removed accidentally. Regardless, I believe this condition should be added = back, because changing implementation level in the middle of ICE processing for a media stream doesn't make = much sense.
If the implementation level must be the same for all media streams (and = it must be, right?), then I think you're right that we should require a= n ICE restart for all the media streams when the implementation level changes.=C2=A0 Otherwise, as you say, a give= n media stream will have the remote implementation level change without a r= estart, which seems problematic.=C2=A0 And I don't see any reason why y= ou wouldn't restart all media streams when you change the implementation level (presumably you're talking to a differ= ent endpoint anyway).
=C2=A0
  1. Section 6.1.3.1, Failure Cases states that when receiving a "role = conflict" error response, "the agent MUST switch to the (controll= ing|controlled) role if it has not already done so". The condition &qu= ot;if it has not already done so", if interpreted literally, means that the agent can only switch to a role once. I don't think thi= s was the intention, so the condition can probably be removed. It's wor= th noting that this condition doesn't exist in Section 6.2.1.1, Detecti= ng and Repairing Role Conflicts.
=E2=80=8BI agree that it should be more clear, and would be with your su= ggested text change. =C2=A0
=E2=80=8B
  1. Starting to really stretch here, but in the rare situation where there&= #39;s a role conflict and the tie-breakers are equal, the peers could conti= nue flipping between roles ad infinitum. Why not just generate a new tie-br= eaker? I saw that this was once brought up on the MMUSIC mailing list but I couldn't find a response.
=E2=80=8BIt seems so rare as to not matter.=C2=A0 But if it would make y= ou and others feel more comfortable, I'd be fine with that logic.=E2=80= =8B

=C2=A0
If there's general agreement about these points, I'll happily = write some pull requests for ICEbis.

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localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB7312D67B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yL6ENWTMCYfS for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x230.google.com (mail-yw0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADA1912D1B8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x230.google.com with SMTP id c72so47854026ywb.1 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DO4rT2WwQPR3oIATTwZv/g970CkQENDEg8dHx/PCPso=; b=j0J/kiCPg1ZfdPYpBii9jY7l/jXjXLOdBpeUV0HaujUCxHEhcTWRkAb+dqDFg1NscQ 2FOhb42UzLXm6EirDf2u5454b3j20d8/S2by3BlBv0HBrINgE+SQmn2XIVdxR3lVxq4B F/4nTFg7s7PgUPnAAt8h0oLQQ34rKiM0VMvXpV4Og0HEy3r3ovDmj+AdUztVLsDPHuLp +9USvdid7O0C9hsRmdiJPPtShTYtyI73ALwwNBz3HJ6WXbpw0s8s2v4ZprbnePIZq721 bPAiYlqxZrcHODWoGw5sOeKXusvP73zgkBsP872tAUNO2pgQog1oGPgp1pXElWtao2f6 4noA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DO4rT2WwQPR3oIATTwZv/g970CkQENDEg8dHx/PCPso=; b=VBSq59992N/Xr3LoBvXWDaKkH4riwAvzgnhioV/DUzn7ntKiqrQgPndciDX8j5IC4S sojsfTtE5pBcymwW0spVD2WbN+zJrbXQ1R09whFxRoiwLnXXW9hyyqE0LXHNaNIm9ftt BRsD0+oh4hrUl0KSqouFEi0qqSGiVbAHZeGkm56B0Zp6OLoyadYTy1Hvg4FOKy40/zpb 480tG10vbs6+CLO7Z96SAUooDpAhlfOiDFBqW/y+astO1dhWVwV7DLa+ti5JzM245mk2 SRdXfwI/9DK16t49Ipb0cLPQhq+qseQKF9O4nODUQrXrGxaV1QauGoXHfXbgCCLljchU wVCg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tINKAStgc8bz5m1vJcPHdBbTHgTcOz4X5DneIcSTUBjyIgBYxqcEHGEtIQiq7+iuhLfnBiyVnAg7oEXQU8y X-Received: by 10.37.66.17 with SMTP id p17mr3166250yba.77.1466095186794; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.233.194 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:39:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11451860d140ed053567e23b Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:39:49 -0000 --001a11451860d140ed053567e23b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE role for the entire session, it only makes sense to use a single tie-breaker value for the entire session as well. Of course, if the ICE role were re-defined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per-media-stream as well. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know th= e > tie-breaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let = me > know if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the > bis-draft needs some clarifications. > > > Q1: > > The =E2=80=9Ctie-breaker=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Ctie-breaker value=E2=80=9D ter= minology is used throughout the > document, but there is no clear =E2=80=9Ctie-breaker=E2=80=9D definition. > > Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the followin= g > text: > > "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network > byte order, which contains a random number used for tie- > breaking of role conflicts.=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=A6but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following tex= t exists > in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis: > > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6, each agent MUST select a random number, called = the tie-breaker, > uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1 > (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)." > > > Q2: > > Section 6.1.2.3 says: > > =E2=80=9CThe content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breaker that = was > determined in Section 5.1.2.=E2=80=9D > > However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the > tie-breaker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245. > > > Q3: > > It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole ICE > session, i.e. all binding requests for all media. > > There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it wa= s > indicated that this will be clarified in bis: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09708.html > > I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make sur= e > that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the > tie-breaker value is used to determine the role. > > > Regards, > > Christer > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --001a11451860d140ed053567e23b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent u= ses a single ICE role for the entire session, it only makes sense to use a = single tie-breaker value for the entire session as well. Of course, if the = ICE role were re-defined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be p= er-media-stream as well.

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

I=E2=80=99ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know= the tie-breaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please l= et me know if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we t= he bis-draft needs some clarifications.


Q1:=C2=A0

The =E2=80=9Ctie-breaker=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Ctie-breaker value=E2=80=9D = terminology is used throughout the document, but there is no clear =E2=80= =9Ctie-breaker=E2=80=9D definition.

Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the follo= wing text:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned i= nteger in network byte order, which contains a random number used for tie-<= /div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0breaking of role conflicts.=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=A6but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following = text exists in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis:<= /div>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6, each agent MUST select a rand= om number, called the tie-breaker, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**= 64) - 1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)."


Q2:

Section 6.1.2.3 says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CThe content of either attribute MUST be the tie-= breaker that was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0determined in Section 5.1.2.=E2=80=9D

However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie= -breaker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245.


Q3:

It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole = ICE session, i.e. all binding requests for all media.

There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it= was indicated that this will be clarified in bis:


I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make = sure that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the= tie-breaker value is used to determine the role.


Regards,

Christer


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


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with ESMTPS id 4EF3C12DA22 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-5c-5762e048287f Received: from ESESSHC014.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.60]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 23.8F.12516.840E2675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC014.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.60]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:22:16 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LA= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:22:15 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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10:38:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i3PJpI923mMp for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com (mail-yw0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A04F612D7D8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id v137so49591031ywa.3 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ErFAsGCoPwD5BIwyDr+sC406bIS6ky3ZyabW2ArDW+A=; b=ERz6xAcxRctLyeMWuUJgp9t8J5b8coujH+TlDIN7Ibt9yhSJ45+lfzkRoay+5K/GZY KqSym/wKk8vPMB2gB9Psu13OR8hWbkHRVE6JqJxRxPWqw8QE0bINNnzePvrtnhtutIri gxW+XZZ+yLho/z8jld6h6GgXSOn2iyDqAi37cIFOby6f+CVBZv80IM+561BP4Cfx1QmJ o05NODn8iqLYM5DbAW50n2G2kzRngqAKhjZzY+h+gmZaEEiNG8warhUVaST4699Jkd0H QuxK5OiyeCWDcXRTOmcxd1OzTeq/dg2qSylacOLbBEjBsUyhR1LRz/VegxrrUaVQPs2P ku7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ErFAsGCoPwD5BIwyDr+sC406bIS6ky3ZyabW2ArDW+A=; b=JT04+KLxRPcA83doWa103Go5VyqUzTWQwRL7+yMegnfdfgL5UEgSkqKqE3IeJaCnMx CrWY0QokiwwG6gDLz5wBIjdzoKFN+/HrNNMAVf4hhdcsKz28uaCpo5AH2Qyed/zIumKc eus/6qHImnH7erSg4CeyB6Cre4VS2mHzNMB2dZm4d5ALNBKOrR9hNfSLVjO5x0bWRCdv xnCYWZNdY6wOOZVFXmRDysoYHo4u87/krq0PAHTzrxIzI+09x0ZbhPrEiMhMzDCOBE3N erOaXgLMgKSdEwUubuaTSLKwlH9RQW5oQh63nICakY/uQmhdfkKH0cOvlwgqo2A6qmm2 qCfA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLRNxaOELNUSeeoLjHW4j387DY/jFMGNdcOidK83npX8O0nd9C57/BAmkqqmm/5L5hvCl/toXQTmk7V9P9w X-Received: by 10.37.214.2 with SMTP id n2mr3120882ybg.161.1466098729530; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:38:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.233.194 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:38:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057872@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057872@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 10:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c068682fb2d73053568b5ca Archived-At: Cc: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:38:56 -0000 --94eb2c068682fb2d73053568b5ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know whether it's an offerer or answerer. If an endpoint always knows whether it's an offerer or an answerer, there would be no point in having a tie-breaker. One example of how this is possible: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725#section-4.2 In short, the third-party call control system acts as the offerer for each of the endpoints it's connecting. This was apparently brought up at IETF 68. See slide 15: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/68/slides/mmusic-0.pdf > So, we need to work on text which says that, once the roles have been determined, endpoints should not change them during an ICE restart - unless they have to. Agreed. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > >If I understand correctly, your point is that changing from "full -> > full" to "full -> lite" would not require a role > >change, because the offering endpoint would already have the > "controlling" role? > > Correct. Note, though, that my comment was only on the initial offer, whe= n > forking can occur. > > >However, there are still situations where the "full" peer could end up > with a "controlled" role, such as: > > > >1. The full peer being transferred to the lite peer was the answerer > initially. > > Correct. > > >2. Both endpoints in the initial offer/answer exchange believed > themselves to be the offerer (or answerer), leaving the initial role > decision up to the tie-breaker. > > I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know whether it's > an offerer or answerer. > > >3. The offer->answer direction is reversed in the second exchange. > > Correct. > > So, we need to work on text which says that, once the roles have been > determined, endpoints should not change them during an ICE restart - unle= ss > they have to. > > In offer/answer terminology that means that, when a subsequent offer is > sent - for whatever reason (including, but not limited to, an ICE restart= ) > - the roles should not change. > > In 5245bis we don't talk about offers and answers, so we have to write > similar text using more generic language. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > If I understand correctly, forking can only trigger a role change when th= e > offerer is ICE lite, and the remote peers are full and lite. > > Because, if the offerer is full ICE, it MUST take the controlling role, n= o > matter if the remote peers are full or lite. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > From: Taylor Brandstetter > Date: Friday 27 May 2016 at 22:24 > To: "pthatcher@google.com" > Cc: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" < > ice@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts > > Yes, sequential forking is the main use case. Specifically, it seems that > the ability to switch ICE roles was intended for the third-party call > control use cases described here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725 > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Peter Thatcher > wrote: > Sequential forking, I believe. > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > What use-cases are there for a full->lite switch? When an endpoint > realises that it=E2=80=99s no longer behind a NAT, and doesn=E2=80=99t wa= nt to use full ICE? > > As far as I understand, ICE-lite is meant for =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D ne= twork boxes > (gateways etc) that are not located behind a NAT. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > From: Ice on behalf of "pthatcher@google.com" < > pthatcher@google.com> > Date: Thursday 26 May 2016 at 22:56 > To: Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts > > > > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter > wrote: > While investigating a WebRTC issue related to ICE role conflicts, I > noticed what seem to be some minor oddities with the rules surrounding IC= E > role determination. I'd like to hear what people think about these issues= , > and find out if I'm overlooking any motivations for the current rules. > 1. Section 5.1.2, Determining Role states "An ICE restart causes a new > selection of roles and tiebreakers". The only time this is necessary, as > far as I can tell, is when an agent is changing its implementation level > (such as "full -> lite") and one agent needs to take up the controlling > role. So it would be ideal if this was the only situation that caused new > role selection. Otherwise, in a third-party call control use case that > resulted in a role conflict initially, every ICE restart will probably > result in another role conflict, as the agents re-select their initial > conflicting roles. Also, what happens if ICE is restarting for only one > media stream and the role changes according to this rule? From the > perspective of the non-restarting media streams, the role would be > switching in the middle of ICE processing. > =E2=80=8BI think that the two rules in the spec of "must change role" and= "role > must be the same for all media streams" is bad combination, and I assume = a > mistake in RFC5245 that no one noticed before. Changing the role of the > non-restarted media streams is unnecessary and can only lead to problems. > But rather than have to have per-media-stream roles (relaxing the second > rule), I think it would be easier to not change the role with an ICE > restart (in other words, relax the first rule). As you point out, there > really isn't any reason to except if the remote side moves from full to > lite, which can be handled with a specific rule rather than a general "mu= st > always change" rule. > > So, I agree with changing the rule from "always change the role for all > media streams when any stream is restarted" to "never change the role > except when the remote implementation level switches to a lite > implementation".=E2=80=8B > > 1. Also, why select a new tiebreaker? I don't see any real issue with > this, but it seems pointless. > I also don't see a point, and would be in favor of not requiring it to > change, if we can't think of a good reason to require it to change. > > 1. There's nothing that says "when changing implementation level, you MUS= T > restart ICE for all media streams". This requirement existed in draft 13 = of > ICE, but then there was a bunch of restructuring and I think it may have > been removed accidentally. Regardless, I believe this condition should be > added back, because changing implementation level in the middle of ICE > processing for a media stream doesn't make much sense. > If the implementation level must be the same for all media streams (and i= t > must be, right?), then I think you're right that we should require an ICE > restart for all the media streams when the implementation level changes. > Otherwise, as you say, a given media stream will have the remote > implementation level change without a restart, which seems problematic. > And I don't see any reason why you wouldn't restart all media streams whe= n > you change the implementation level (presumably you're talking to a > different endpoint anyway). > > 1. Section 6.1.3.1, Failure Cases states that when receiving a "role > conflict" error response, "the agent MUST switch to the > (controlling|controlled) role if it has not already done so". The conditi= on > "if it has not already done so", if interpreted literally, means that the > agent can only switch to a role once. I don't think this was the intentio= n, > so the condition can probably be removed. It's worth noting that this > condition doesn't exist in Section 6.2.1.1, Detecting and Repairing Role > Conflicts. > =E2=80=8BI agree that it should be more clear, and would be with your sug= gested > text change. > =E2=80=8B > 1. Starting to really stretch here, but in the rare situation where > there's a role conflict and the tie-breakers are equal, the peers could > continue flipping between roles ad infinitum. Why not just generate a new > tie-breaker? I saw that this was once brought up on the MMUSIC mailing li= st > but I couldn't find a response. > =E2=80=8BIt seems so rare as to not matter. But if it would make you and= others > feel more comfortable, I'd be fine with that logic.=E2=80=8B > > > If there's general agreement about these points, I'll happily write some > pull requests for ICEbis. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > --94eb2c068682fb2d73053568b5ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0I am not sure h= ow that would occur: an endpoint always know whether it's an offerer or= answerer.

If an endpoint always knows whether it&#= 39;s an offerer or an answerer, there would be no point in having a tie-bre= aker.

One example of how this is possible:=C2= =A0https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/rfc3725#section-4.2
In short, the third-party= call control system acts as the offerer for each of the endpoints it's= connecting.

This was apparently brought up at IET= F 68. See slide 15:=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/68/slides/mmusic-0.pdf

On Thu, Jun 16= , 2016 at 9:38 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@erics= son.com> wrote:
Hi,

>If I understand correctly, your point is that changing from "full = -> full" to "full -> lite" would not require a role >change, because the offering endpoint would already have the "cont= rolling" role?

Correct. Note, though, that my comment was only on the initial offer= , when forking can occur.

>However, there are still situations where the "full" peer cou= ld end up with a "controlled" role, such as:
>
>1. The full peer being transferred to the lite peer was the answ= erer initially.

Correct.

>2. Both endpoints in the initial offer/answer exchange believed themsel= ves to be the offerer (or answerer), leaving the initial role decision up t= o the tie-breaker.

I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know whether it'= s an offerer or answerer.

>3. The offer->answer direction is reversed in the second exchange.
Correct.

So, we need to work on text which says that, once the roles have been deter= mined, endpoints should not change them during an ICE restart - unless they= have to.

In offer/answer terminology that means that, when a subsequent offer is sen= t - for whatever reason (including, but not limited to, an ICE restart) - t= he roles should not change.

In 5245bis we don't talk about offers and answers, so we have to write = similar text using more generic language.

Regards,

Christer



On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote= :
Hi,

If I understand correctly, forking can only trigger a role change when the = offerer is ICE lite, and the remote peers are full and lite.

Because, if the offerer is full ICE, it MUST take the controlling role, no = matter if the remote peers are full or lite.

Regards,

Christer


From: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbe= ef@google.com>
Date: Friday 27 May 2016 at 22:24
To: "pthatcher@google.com&= quot; <pthatcher@google.com&= gt;
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org= >

Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts

Yes, sequential forking is the main use case. Specifically, it seems that t= he ability to switch ICE roles was intended for the third-party call contro= l use cases described here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
Sequential forking, I believe.

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:=

Hi,

What use-cases are there for a full->lite switch? When an endpoint reali= ses that it=E2=80=99s no longer behind a NAT, and doesn=E2=80=99t want to u= se full ICE?

As far as I understand, ICE-lite is meant for =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D netw= ork boxes (gateways etc) that are not located behind a NAT.

Regards,

Christer



From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of "pthatche= r@google.com" <pthatche= r@google.com>
Date: Thursday 26 May 2016 at 22:56
To: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef= @google.com>
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts



On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com> wrote:
While investigating a WebRTC issue related to ICE role conflicts, I noticed= what seem to be some minor oddities with the rules surrounding ICE role de= termination. I'd like to hear what people think about these issues, and= find out if I'm overlooking any motivations for the current rules.
1. Section 5.1.2, Determining Role states "An ICE restart = causes a new selection of roles and tiebreakers". The only time this i= s necessary, as far as I can tell, is when an agent is changing its impleme= ntation level (such as "full -> lite") and one agent needs=C2= =A0to take up the controlling role.=C2=A0So it would be ideal if this was t= he only situation that caused new role selection. Otherwise, in a third-par= ty call control use case that resulted in a role conflict initially, every= =C2=A0ICE restart will probably result in another role conflict, as the age= nts re-select their initial conflicting roles. Also, what happens if ICE is= restarting for only one media stream and the role changes according to thi= s rule? From the perspective of the non-restarting media streams, the role = would be switching in the middle of ICE processing.
=E2=80=8BI think that the two rules in the spec of "m= ust change role" and "role must be the same for all media streams= " is bad combination, and I assume a mistake in RFC5245 that no one no= ticed before.=C2=A0 Changing the role of the non-restarted media streams is= unnecessary and can only lead to problems. =C2=A0 But rather than have to = have per-media-stream roles (relaxing the second rule), I think it would be= easier to not change the role with an ICE restart (in other words, relax t= he first rule).=C2=A0 As you point out, there really isn't any reason t= o except if the remote side moves from full to lite, which can be handled w= ith a specific rule rather than a general "must always change" ru= le.

So, I agree with changing the rule from "always change the role for al= l media streams when any stream is restarted" to "never change th= e role except when the remote implementation level switches to a lite imple= mentation".=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
1. Also, why select a new tiebreaker? I don't see any real issue= with this, but it seems pointless.
I also don't see a point, and would be in favor of not= requiring it to change, if we can't think of a good reason to require = it to change.
=C2=A0
1. There's nothing that says "when changing implementation = level, you MUST restart ICE for all media streams". This requirement e= xisted in draft 13 of ICE, but then there was a bunch of restructuring and = I think it may have been removed accidentally. Regardless, I believe this c= ondition should be added back, because changing implementation level in the= middle of ICE processing for a media stream doesn't make much sense. If the implementation level must be the same for all media= streams (and it must be, right?), then I think you're right that we sh= ould require an ICE restart for all the media streams when the implementati= on level changes.=C2=A0 Otherwise, as you say, a given media stream will ha= ve the remote implementation level change without a restart, which seems pr= oblematic.=C2=A0 And I don't see any reason why you wouldn't restar= t all media streams when you change the implementation level (presumably yo= u're talking to a different endpoint anyway).
=C2=A0
1. Section 6.1.3.1, Failure Cases states that when receiving a "= ;role conflict" error response, "the agent MUST switch to the (co= ntrolling|controlled) role if it has not already done so". The conditi= on "if it has not already done so", if interpreted literally, mea= ns that the agent can only switch to a role once. I don't think this wa= s the intention, so the condition can probably be removed. It's worth n= oting that this condition doesn't exist in Section 6.2.1.1, Detecting a= nd Repairing Role Conflicts.
=E2=80=8BI agree that it should be more clear, and would b= e with your suggested text change. =C2=A0
=E2=80=8B
1. Starting to really stretch here, but in the rare situation where = there's a role conflict and the tie-breakers are equal, the peers could= continue flipping between roles ad infinitum. Why not just generate a new = tie-breaker? I saw that this was once brought up on the MMUSIC mailing list= but I couldn't find a response.
=E2=80=8BIt seems so rare as to not= matter.=C2=A0 But if it would make you and others feel more comfortable, I= 'd be fine with that logic.=E2=80=8B

=C2=A0
If there's general agreement about these points, I'll happily write= some pull requests for ICEbis.

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice




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<7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057872@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B380579BD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:33:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07f3b2fa875c0535697848 Archived-At: Cc: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 18:33:27 -0000 --94eb2c07f3b2fa875c0535697848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > However, I don't think the issue is that the endpoints don=E2=80=99t know= whether they are an offerer or and answerer - I think they case is that they both act as offerer. Yes, sorry if my wording was poor. The case I'm talking about is when the endpoints performing ICE both acted as offerer (or answerer). Or in RFC5245bis terminology, both acted as the initiator or responder. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725#section-4.2, which I linked earlier, shows an example of this. The flow is, in essence: 1. Controller sends offer to Alice. 2. Alice sends an answer to Controller, taking controlled role. 3. Controller sends offer to Bob using information from Alice's answer. 4. Bob sends answer to Controller, taking controlled role. 5. Now Alice is performing ICE with Bob, and they both have the controlled role. Hence the tie-breaker is needed. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > >> I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know whether > it's an offerer or answerer. > > > > If an endpoint always knows whether it's an offerer or an answerer, > there would be no point in having a tie-breaker. > > > > One example of how this is possible: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725#section-4.2 > > In short, the third-party call control system acts as the offerer for > each of the endpoints it's connecting. > > > > This was apparently brought up at IETF 68. See slide 15: > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/68/slides/mmusic-0.pdf > > People talk about these 3pcc cases, but it would be really nice to see an > example :) > > However, I don't think the issue is that the endpoints don=E2=80=99t know= whether > they are an offerer or and answerer - I think they case is that they both > act as offerer. > > Example: > > - A establishes a session with B. A is the controller. > > - C (3pcc controller) sends an offer to A, in order to transfer A to D. > > - C takes the role as controller. A is the controller from the initial > negotiation with B. > > - Now, it needs to be decided whether A or C is controller. I guess the > tie-breaker could be used to determine that - but A could also simply sen= d > an answer and change its role to CONTROLLED. > > But, again, I have no idea whether this is the 3pcc case people have had > in mind :) > > Since we define the tie-breaker, I really think we should have an example > where it's needed, instead of only saying "in certain 3pcc cases". > > Regards, > > Christer > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > >If I understand correctly, your point is that changing from "full -> > full" to "full -> lite" would not require a role > >change, because the offering endpoint would already have the > "controlling" role? > > Correct. Note, though, that my comment was only on the initial offer, whe= n > forking can occur. > > >However, there are still situations where the "full" peer could end up > with a "controlled" role, such as: > > > >1. The full peer being transferred to the lite peer was the answerer > initially. > > Correct. > > >2. Both endpoints in the initial offer/answer exchange believed > themselves to be the offerer (or answerer), leaving the initial role > decision up to the tie-breaker. > > I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know whether it's > an offerer or answerer. > > >3. The offer->answer direction is reversed in the second exchange. > > Correct. > > So, we need to work on text which says that, once the roles have been > determined, endpoints should not change them during an ICE restart - unle= ss > they have to. > > In offer/answer terminology that means that, when a subsequent offer is > sent - for whatever reason (including, but not limited to, an ICE restart= ) > - the roles should not change. > > In 5245bis we don't talk about offers and answers, so we have to write > similar text using more generic language. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > If I understand correctly, forking can only trigger a role change when th= e > offerer is ICE lite, and the remote peers are full and lite. > > Because, if the offerer is full ICE, it MUST take the controlling role, n= o > matter if the remote peers are full or lite. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > From: Taylor Brandstetter > Date: Friday 27 May 2016 at 22:24 > To: "pthatcher@google.com" > Cc: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" < > ice@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts > > Yes, sequential forking is the main use case. Specifically, it seems that > the ability to switch ICE roles was intended for the third-party call > control use cases described here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725 > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Peter Thatcher > wrote: > Sequential forking, I believe. > > On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > What use-cases are there for a full->lite switch? When an endpoint > realises that it=E2=80=99s no longer behind a NAT, and doesn=E2=80=99t wa= nt to use full ICE? > > As far as I understand, ICE-lite is meant for =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D ne= twork boxes > (gateways etc) that are not located behind a NAT. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > From: Ice on behalf of "pthatcher@google.com" < > pthatcher@google.com> > Date: Thursday 26 May 2016 at 22:56 > To: Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts > > > > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter > wrote: > While investigating a WebRTC issue related to ICE role conflicts, I > noticed what seem to be some minor oddities with the rules surrounding IC= E > role determination. I'd like to hear what people think about these issues= , > and find out if I'm overlooking any motivations for the current rules. > 1. Section 5.1.2, Determining Role states "An ICE restart causes a new > selection of roles and tiebreakers". The only time this is necessary, as > far as I can tell, is when an agent is changing its implementation level > (such as "full -> lite") and one agent needs to take up the controlling > role. So it would be ideal if this was the only situation that caused new > role selection. Otherwise, in a third-party call control use case that > resulted in a role conflict initially, every ICE restart will probably > result in another role conflict, as the agents re-select their initial > conflicting roles. Also, what happens if ICE is restarting for only one > media stream and the role changes according to this rule? From the > perspective of the non-restarting media streams, the role would be > switching in the middle of ICE processing. > =E2=80=8BI think that the two rules in the spec of "must change role" and= "role > must be the same for all media streams" is bad combination, and I assume = a > mistake in RFC5245 that no one noticed before. Changing the role of the > non-restarted media streams is unnecessary and can only lead to problems. > But rather than have to have per-media-stream roles (relaxing the second > rule), I think it would be easier to not change the role with an ICE > restart (in other words, relax the first rule). As you point out, there > really isn't any reason to except if the remote side moves from full to > lite, which can be handled with a specific rule rather than a general "mu= st > always change" rule. > > So, I agree with changing the rule from "always change the role for all > media streams when any stream is restarted" to "never change the role > except when the remote implementation level switches to a lite > implementation".=E2=80=8B > > 1. Also, why select a new tiebreaker? I don't see any real issue with > this, but it seems pointless. > I also don't see a point, and would be in favor of not requiring it to > change, if we can't think of a good reason to require it to change. > > 1. There's nothing that says "when changing implementation level, you MUS= T > restart ICE for all media streams". This requirement existed in draft 13 = of > ICE, but then there was a bunch of restructuring and I think it may have > been removed accidentally. Regardless, I believe this condition should be > added back, because changing implementation level in the middle of ICE > processing for a media stream doesn't make much sense. > If the implementation level must be the same for all media streams (and i= t > must be, right?), then I think you're right that we should require an ICE > restart for all the media streams when the implementation level changes. > Otherwise, as you say, a given media stream will have the remote > implementation level change without a restart, which seems problematic. > And I don't see any reason why you wouldn't restart all media streams whe= n > you change the implementation level (presumably you're talking to a > different endpoint anyway). > > 1. Section 6.1.3.1, Failure Cases states that when receiving a "role > conflict" error response, "the agent MUST switch to the > (controlling|controlled) role if it has not already done so". The conditi= on > "if it has not already done so", if interpreted literally, means that the > agent can only switch to a role once. I don't think this was the intentio= n, > so the condition can probably be removed. It's worth noting that this > condition doesn't exist in Section 6.2.1.1, Detecting and Repairing Role > Conflicts. > =E2=80=8BI agree that it should be more clear, and would be with your sug= gested > text change. > =E2=80=8B > 1. Starting to really stretch here, but in the rare situation where > there's a role conflict and the tie-breakers are equal, the peers could > continue flipping between roles ad infinitum. Why not just generate a new > tie-breaker? I saw that this was once brought up on the MMUSIC mailing li= st > but I couldn't find a response. > =E2=80=8BIt seems so rare as to not matter. But if it would make you and= others > feel more comfortable, I'd be fine with that logic.=E2=80=8B > > > If there's general agreement about these points, I'll happily write some > pull requests for ICEbis. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > --94eb2c07f3b2fa875c0535697848 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0However, I= don't think the issue is that the endpoints don=E2=80=99t know whether= they are an offerer or and answerer - I think they case is that they both = act as offerer.

Yes, sorry if my wording was poo= r. The case I'm talking about is when the endpoints performing ICE both= acted as offerer (or answerer). Or in RFC5245bis terminology, both acted a= s the initiator or responder.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725#secti= on-4.2, which I linked earlier, shows an example of this. The flow is, = in essence:

1. Controller sends offer to Alice= .
2. Alice sends an answer to Controller, taking controlled role.=
3. Controller sends offer to Bob using information from Alice= 9;s answer.
4. Bob sends answer to Controller, taking controlled = role.
5. Now Alice is performing ICE with Bob, and they both have= the controlled role. Hence the tie-breaker is needed.

=

On Thu, Jun= 16, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@e= ricsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

>>=C2=A0I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know w= hether it's an offerer or answerer.
>
> If an endpoint always knows whether it's an offerer or an answerer= , there would be no point in having a tie-breaker.
>
> One example of how this is possible:=C2=A0https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725#section-4.2
> In short, the third-party call control system acts as the offerer for = each of the endpoints it's connecting.
>
> This was apparently brought up at IETF 68. See slide 15:=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/68/slides/mmusic-0.= pdf

People talk about these 3pcc cases, but it would be really nice to s= ee an example :)

However, I don't think the issue is that the endpoints don=E2=80=99t kn= ow whether they are an offerer or and answerer - I think they case is that = they both act as offerer.

Example:

- A establishes a session with B. A is the controller.

- C (3pcc controller) sends an offer to A, in order to transfer A to D.

- C takes the role as controller. A is the controller from the initial nego= tiation with B.

- Now, it needs to be decided whether A or C is controller. I guess the tie= -breaker could be used to determine that - but A could also simply send an = answer and change its role to CONTROLLED.

But,=C2=A0 again, I have no idea whether this is the 3pcc case people have = had in mind :)

Since we define the tie-breaker, I really think we should have an example w= here it's needed, instead of only saying "in certain 3pcc cases&qu= ot;.

Regards,

Christer


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:=
Hi,

>If I understand correctly, your point is that changing from "full = -> full" to "full -> lite" would not require a role >change, because the offering endpoint would already have the "cont= rolling" role?

Correct. Note, though, that my comment was only on the initial offer, when = forking can occur.

>However, there are still situations where the "full" peer cou= ld end up with a "controlled" role, such as:
>
>1. The full peer being transferred to the lite peer was the answerer in= itially.

Correct.

>2. Both endpoints in the initial offer/answer exchange believed themsel= ves to be the offerer (or answerer), leaving the initial role decision up t= o the tie-breaker.

I am not sure how that would occur: an endpoint always know whether it'= s an offerer or answerer.

>3. The offer->answer direction is reversed in the second exchange.
Correct.

So, we need to work on text which says that, once the roles have been deter= mined, endpoints should not change them during an ICE restart - unless they= have to.

In offer/answer terminology that means that, when a subsequent offer is sen= t - for whatever reason (including, but not limited to, an ICE restart) - t= he roles should not change.

In 5245bis we don't talk about offers and answers, so we have to write = similar text using more generic language.

Regards,

Christer



On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote= :
Hi,

If I understand correctly, forking can only trigger a role change when the = offerer is ICE lite, and the remote peers are full and lite.

Because, if the offerer is full ICE, it MUST take the controlling role, no = matter if the remote peers are full or lite.

Regards,

Christer


From: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbe= ef@google.com>
Date: Friday 27 May 2016 at 22:24
To: "pthatcher@google.com&= quot; <pthatcher@google.com&= gt;
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org= >

Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts

Yes, sequential forking is the main use case. Specifically, it seems that t= he ability to switch ICE roles was intended for the third-party call contro= l use cases described here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3725

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
Sequential forking, I believe.

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 5:57 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:=

Hi,

What use-cases are there for a full->lite switch? When an endpoint reali= ses that it=E2=80=99s no longer behind a NAT, and doesn=E2=80=99t want to u= se full ICE?

As far as I understand, ICE-lite is meant for =E2=80=9Cstatic=E2=80=9D netw= ork boxes (gateways etc) that are not located behind a NAT.

Regards,

Christer



From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of "pthatche= r@google.com" <pthatche= r@google.com>
Date: Thursday 26 May 2016 at 22:56
To: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef= @google.com>
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts



On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com> wrote:
While investigating a WebRTC issue related to ICE role conflicts, I noticed= what seem to be some minor oddities with the rules surrounding ICE role de= termination. I'd like to hear what people think about these issues, and= find out if I'm overlooking any motivations for the current rules.
1. Section 5.1.2, Determining Role states "An ICE restart causes a new= selection of roles and tiebreakers". The only time this is necessary,= as far as I can tell, is when an agent is changing its implementation leve= l (such as "full -> lite") and one agent needs=C2=A0to take up= the controlling role.=C2=A0So it would be ideal if this was the only situa= tion that caused new role selection. Otherwise, in a third-party call contr= ol use case that resulted in a role conflict initially, every=C2=A0ICE rest= art will probably result in another role conflict, as the agents re-select = their initial conflicting roles. Also, what happens if ICE is restarting fo= r only one media stream and the role changes according to this rule? From t= he perspective of the non-restarting media streams, the role would be switc= hing in the middle of ICE processing.
=E2=80=8BI think that the two rules in the spec of "must change role&q= uot; and "role must be the same for all media streams" is bad com= bination, and I assume a mistake in RFC5245 that no one noticed before.=C2= =A0 Changing the role of the non-restarted media streams is unnecessary and= can only lead to problems. =C2=A0 But rather than have to have per-media-s= tream roles (relaxing the second rule), I think it would be easier to not c= hange the role with an ICE restart (in other words, relax the first rule).= =C2=A0 As you point out, there really isn't any reason to except if the= remote side moves from full to lite, which can be handled with a specific = rule rather than a general "must always change" rule.

So, I agree with changing the rule from "always change the role for al= l media streams when any stream is restarted" to "never change th= e role except when the remote implementation level switches to a lite imple= mentation".=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0
1. Also, why select a new tiebreaker? I don't see any real issue with t= his, but it seems pointless.
I also don't see a point, and would be in favor of not requiring it to = change, if we can't think of a good reason to require it to change.
=C2=A0
1. There's nothing that says "when changing implementation level, = you MUST restart ICE for all media streams". This requirement existed = in draft 13 of ICE, but then there was a bunch of restructuring and I think= it may have been removed accidentally. Regardless, I believe this conditio= n should be added back, because changing implementation level in the middle= of ICE processing for a media stream doesn't make much sense.
If the implementation level must be the same for all media streams (and it = must be, right?), then I think you're right that we should require an I= CE restart for all the media streams when the implementation level changes.= =C2=A0 Otherwise, as you say, a given media stream will have the remote imp= lementation level change without a restart, which seems problematic.=C2=A0 = And I don't see any reason why you wouldn't restart all media strea= ms when you change the implementation level (presumably you're talking = to a different endpoint anyway).
=C2=A0
1. Section 6.1.3.1, Failure Cases states that when receiving a "role c= onflict" error response, "the agent MUST switch to the (controlli= ng|controlled) role if it has not already done so". The condition &quo= t;if it has not already done so", if interpreted literally, means that= the agent can only switch to a role once. I don't think this was the i= ntention, so the condition can probably be removed. It's worth noting t= hat this condition doesn't exist in Section 6.2.1.1, Detecting and Repa= iring Role Conflicts.
=E2=80=8BI agree that it should be more clear, and would be with your sugge= sted text change. =C2=A0
=E2=80=8B
1. Starting to really stretch here, but in the rare situation where there&#= 39;s a role conflict and the tie-breakers are equal, the peers could contin= ue flipping between roles ad infinitum. Why not just generate a new tie-bre= aker? I saw that this was once brought up on the MMUSIC mailing list but I = couldn't find a response.
=E2=80=8BIt seems so rare as to not matter.=C2=A0 But if it would make you = and others feel more comfortable, I'd be fine with that logic.=E2=80=8B=

=C2=A0
If there's general agreement about these points, I'll happily write= some pull requests for ICEbis.

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Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


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Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice




--94eb2c07f3b2fa875c0535697848-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 12:03:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B4C12DAF8 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GtE7neGQJ5X for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D944012DAED for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:03:01 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-fc-5762f7e38048 Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.87]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 94.46.27088.3E7F2675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:03:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:02:59 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts Thread-Index: AQHRsrMPW+cUSE0OREq9RLjfNQmSUJ/LioaAgAFQTgD///GtAIAAR2MAgB7f44CAAF1+AIAAIiog///xhACAACOAsP//67wAAAUS9yA= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:02:59 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057AC6@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057872@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B380579BD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057AC6ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7uO6T70nhBnfX8VtcXvGQ1eLbhVqL a8tfszoweyzYVOqxZMlPpgCmKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6M9s/HWQrebWGq6N67g6mB8ckapi5G Tg4JAROJRa8XsUPYYhIX7q1n62Lk4hASOMIo0XJnJzOEs4RR4sGE9YxdjBwcbAIWEt3/tEEa RAR0JW5+XcgGYjMLeEh82dIINkhYwFXi//x+VogaN4lnd18zQ9hlEr9W/mUEsVkEVCV2tZxn AxnJK+ArcXOyF8SqJ6wSb5uWgc3kFAiUmP5yC9hMRqDjvp+COJpZQFzi1pP5UA8ISCzZc54Z whaVePn4HyuErSTRuOQJK0R9vsS0Y4fA9vIKCEqcnPmEZQKj6Cwko2YhKZuFpGwW0HnMApoS 63fpQ5QoSkzpfsgOYWtItM6Zy44svoCRfRWjaHFqcVJuupGRXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZGYNwd 3PLbYAfjy+eOhxgFOBiVeHgfnE8MF2JNLCuuzD3EKMHBrCTC2/opKVyINyWxsiq1KD++qDQn tfgQozQHi5I4r/9LxXAhgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYLBMHp1QDo0yEU+Eni7Y4x+w1392k5uy9wOt4 8F5/TvCyl6dn/vpu6WCRcXXqskS/izo3KpmN0xuKqyLW8PpVH1r70Gj2/E3K/Efm7Lc3FgxW kPF9qrrEbfOnC+uXPV0i5HKft9Au7Fun+p5FByUNFrPZmC04bXFqtqiwygRdJxZPkddr6q8K Cs6fFL6gR4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRAEPry8m3AgAA Archived-At: Cc: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issues related to ICE role switching and conflicts X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:03:06 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057AC6ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCj4+IEhvd2V2ZXIsIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGlzc3VlIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGVu ZHBvaW50cyBkb27igJl0IGtub3cgd2hldGhlciB0aGV5IGFyZSBhbiBvZmZlcmVyIG9yIGFuZCBh bnN3ZXJlciAtIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhleSBjYXNlIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhleSBib3RoIGFjdCBhcyBvZmZl cmVyLg0KPg0KPiBZZXMsIHNvcnJ5IGlmIG15IHdvcmRpbmcgd2FzIHBvb3IuIFRoZSBjYXNlIEkn 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g8mQdcue4xDq for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C29D612DAE2 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:06:48 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f26d00000327e-de-5762f8c6246a Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.84]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2B.12.12926.6C8F2675; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.112]) by ESESSHC022.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 21:06:46 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: Setting of Ta and RTP values Thread-Index: AQHRx5haGCpSoAuZRkWTELhtRrfJyJ/sU7uA Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:06:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprCIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7iO7xH0nhBsf2cVl8u1DrwOixZMlP pgDGKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6Mu82/WQv62Cse3tjP2sB4i7WLkZNDQsBE4sKBTihbTOLCvfVs XYxcHEICRxglZjbdgXKWMEpsenOVEaSKTcBeYvKaj2C2iICZxPXPvUxdjBwczAKKEi/3qoGE hQUsJCbcXMYOUWIp8XbFFlaQEhEBI4nZDZYgYRYBVYm1x3aA7eUFmrjr+jYmEFtIwEpi6adT YK2cAtYSk/5OB7MZgW77fmoNWA2zgLjErSfzmSBuFpBYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T+oX5QkFt3+DFWv J3Fj6hQ2CNtaoqfhNFRcW2LZwtfMEDcISpyc+YRlAqP4LCQrZiFpn4WkfRaS9llI2hcwsq5i FC1OLU7KTTcy1kstykwuLs7P08tLLdnECIyrg1t+q+5gvPzG8RCjAAejEg/vg/OJ4UKsiWXF lbmHGCU4mJVEeBO/J4UL8aYkVlalFuXHF5XmpBYfYpTmYFES5/V/qRguJJCeWJKanZpakFoE k2Xi4JRqYGz41/ysJ75i4QnD/XMznxRuLtmyqfQAo5vZrkvPfSdkzNDV8mxe4P0tiWXBqoL5 d7reF/75cWPztb+siRKKjiWzJrw7ODm8VVzyq/QjlwPumXMvbE3Q/px4dzuL568PGoH1bm9k Emo62xX/nF7HZpN8K7zoP5e2rZ2+7DEx/i9rFKO+mHTxKimxFGckGmoxFxUnAgDnS+KvpwIA AA== Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: Setting of Ta and RTP values X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 19:06:50 -0000 Hi, The pull request looked good to me. Spotted couple of typos though (comment= ed on pr). Cheers, Ari > On 16 Jun 2016, at 09:28, Christer Holmberg wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Some time ago, we agreed to define the same procedures for setting the Ta= and RTO values no matter if a media is real-time or not, still allowing pe= ople to use different values if they have a good reason to do so (e.g. base= d on the characteristics of the media). >=20 > I have created a pull request where this change has been implemented: >=20 > https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/5 >=20 > In addition, the pull request adds a new Appendix, with figures provided = by Justin, as agreed. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Thu Jun 16 23:28:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E29F12D17B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VA_2xnzTS-rL for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F82D12B024 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:28:25 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-49-57639887c852 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.42]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C6.4A.12516.78893675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:28:23 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Removal of no-op and RTP comfort noise for keepalives Thread-Index: AdHIYCCIubgl7k3JQ66C6ibBZd28Rg== Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:28:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805828A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805828AESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7lm77jORwg60HJS2+Xah1YPRYsuQn UwBjFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfG6idOBV2SFXO7jjM3MC4V62Lk5JAQMJG48mkpM4QtJnHh3nq2 LkYuDiGBI4wSBy8fZoVwljBK7Pn5nKWLkYODTcBCovufNkiDiICixMyWZ2DNwgLuEq8b/rFC xH0keu61M0HYehIPr61iBWllEVCVuLcgBiTMK+ArMeXiZLByRqC930+tAStnFhCXuPVkPhPE PQISS/ach7pNVOLlY4jxEgJKEotuf4aqz5c49+ADM8RMQYmTM5+wTGAUmoVk1CwkZbOQlEHE dSQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZxj5z4DETsvgCRvZVjKLFqcXFuelGxnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWbGIHR cHDLb90djKtfOx5iFOBgVOLhTVBMDhdiTSwrrsw9xCjBwawkwqs5HSjEm5JYWZValB9fVJqT WnyIUZqDRUmc1/+lYriQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qBkTdF+U7kykW9P298C79tlDGZ4UcD W6Vx/lqHiSy2D/ovaB6tFZ4XJsPV+C0y9W7U58Zt1ULl/4/fnLfq0l7xxbY2rAK5dtbcXzjv H1j1IvhgytlCq18RtidTu8xKnx7PuSkW9mRTrBxT3JZmsZOzJu+V2qP6lu3p3otrXs24f3ia ooJDWySTnxJLcUaioRZzUXEiAF1vZvWCAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Removal of no-op and RTP comfort noise for keepalives X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:28:27 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805828AESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Based on the agreement in Buenos Aires, I've removed the text regarding usa= ge of RTP no-op and comfort noise for ICE keepalives, and the text regardin= g keepalives in non-ICE usages. The pull request: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/6 Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805828AESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Based on the agreement in Buenos Aires, I’ve r= emoved the text regarding usage of RTP no-op and comfort noise for ICE keep= alives, and the text regarding keepalives in non-ICE usages.

 

The pull request:

 

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/6

 

Regards,

 

Christer

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805828AESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 23:55:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C94312B024 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SGn3NzUgvAcd for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78E8112B019 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 23:55:00 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-6c-57639ec26b52 Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.90]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id CA.9F.12516.2CE93675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:54:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC024.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 08:54:57 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" , "ice-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Author's status update (17th June 2016) Thread-Index: AdHIZTWCexFsGjLMRlyAMkPH//gWOA== Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:54:57 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805837B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805837BESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupmkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbE9SvfQvORwg+c9yhZ7rt1ms5jdNZfV 4tuFWgdmjyVLfjJ5fLn8mS2AKYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4/GhZ2wFa2wrrrbOYmtgfGvWxcjJ ISFgInH97W12CFtM4sK99WwgtpDAEUaJvr1FXYxcQPYSRokza0+xdDFycLAJWEh0/9MGqRER iJH4f+wSM4jNLJAt8WHSdkYQW1jAUuLD5k52iBo7iWMLl0DZehLLG36C1bMIqEp8eX2WBcTm FfCV2HvlM5jNCHTD91NrmCBmikvcejKfCeI2AYkle84zQ9iiEi8f/2OFsJUkFt3+DFWfL9HW dANqpqDEyZlPWCYwCs9CMmoWkrJZSMog4joSC3Z/YoOwtSWWLXzNDGOfOfCYCVl8ASP7KkbR 4tTi4tx0I2O91KLM5OLi/Dy9vNSSTYzAKDq45bfuDsbVrx0PMQpwMCrx8CYoJocLsSaWFVfm HmKU4GBWEuF9MBsoxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGag0VJnNf/pWK4kEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJ g1OqgXFpVOiMW/ZfdjHeVW379nCOxUHFTvGgCx1H+1rV4/7ONFt8UDppXr7yBAnF/xyPb7G2 nFS99dbLs/3Xol+pB042dgr96dbUdDnwkDH1XdLDl4U8XQWlCt7aefMWTzZ3yl3qc0vq6nLR Gkf9JMHbr7a2dYk3yHX6zn3tezXg0J/+YEu12jMWkUosxRmJhlrMRcWJAOKvIIieAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp.all@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Author's status update (17th June 2016) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:55:02 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805837BESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi ICE lovers, Some status regarding draft-5245bis: For all issue decisions made in Buenos Aires (https://www.ietf.org/proceedi= ngs/95/minutes/minutes-95-ice.htm), there now exist test. Some decisions ha= ve already been implemented in the previously released -02 version of draft= -5245bis. ISSUE: Keep-alives Text: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/6 ISSUE: Connectivity Check Pacing Text: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/5 ISSUE: Aggressive nomination Text: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02.txt At least the removal of aggressive nomination will also have impact on draf= t-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp, so I encourage the authors and the MMUSIC commun= ity to start looking into that. Currently open issues: ------------------------------ ISSUE: Any changes needs in order to reference draft-dual-fairness Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00242.html ISSUE: Change of ICE roles due to ICE restart Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00208.html ISSUE: Tie-breaker clarification Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00257.html ISSUES: Check lists and trickling Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00187.html Anything else? I hope that we will be able to close the open issues no later than Berlin, = so please contribute with suggestions, text and passion. Also, if you find some major issues with how the solved issues have been im= plemented, please let the community know asap, so we can discuss it in Berl= in if needed. Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805837BESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi ICE lovers,

 

Some status regarding draft-5245bis:

 

For all issue decisions made in Buenos Aires (https:= //www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-ice.htm), there now exist = test. Some decisions have already been implemented in the previously releas= ed -02 version of draft-5245bis.

 

ISSUE: Keep-alives<= /o:p>

Text: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/6

 

ISSUE: Connectivity Check Pacin= g

Text: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/5

 

ISSUE: Aggressive nomination

Text: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-02.txt

 

 

At least the removal of aggressive nomination will a= lso have impact on draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp, so I encourage the author= s and the MMUSIC community to start looking into that.

 

 

Currently open issues:

------------------------------

 

ISSUE: Any changes needs in order to reference draft= -dual-fairness

Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00242.html

 

ISSUE: Change of ICE roles due to ICE restart <= /o:p>

Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00208.html

 

ISSUE: Tie-breaker clarification

Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00257.html

 

ISSUES: Check lists and trickling

Discussion: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00187.html

 

Anything else?

 

I hope that we will be able to close the open issues= no later than Berlin, so please contribute with suggestions, text and pass= ion.

 

Also, if you find some major issues with how the sol= ved issues have been implemented, please let the community know asap, so we= can discuss it in Berlin if needed.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3805837BESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 02:46:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D476F12B04C for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:46:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mp4jPzQU25ac for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24E4D12B027 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:46:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f26d00000327e-70-5763c700107a Received: from ESESSHC023.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.87]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 85.10.12926.007C3675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:46:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC023.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:46:39 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christer Holmberg , Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgA== Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:46:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.19] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D389A1B7B054christerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7uC7D8eRwg7/dShaXVzxktfh2odaB yWPBplKPJUt+MgUwRXHZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlnF/1iKXg/FrGilmvlBsYn8xg7GLk5JAQMJG4 M/U3G4QtJnHh3nogm4tDSOAIo8T2SdvYQRJCAksYJfYsYupi5OBgE7CQ6P6nDRIWEUiWuDLx FRtImFlAUeLlXjWQsLCAnkTDlclg1SIC+hKHP+lAVDtJXF+9hwnEZhFQlbi3ewMriM0rYCVx ceFvVoitRxklXm1azwyS4BTwk3hzdAqYzQh02vdTa8CamQXEJW49mc8EcbKAxJI955khbFGJ l4//gQ0VBbrhy715UC8qSrQ/bWCEODNe4uayeoi9ghInZz5hmcAoNgvJ1FkIVbOQVEGUGEi8 PzefGcLWlli28DWUrS+x8ctZRgjbWqJ//SM2ZDULGDlWMYoWpxYn5aYbGeulFmUmFxfn5+nl pZZsYgRG5cEtv1V3MF5+43iIUYCDUYmHN0ExOVyINbGsuDL3EKMEB7OSCK/8MaAQb0piZVVq UX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVxXv+XiuFCAumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYOTqkGxrA3/xpnHyp1tT8nkf/r aMimORs3vWLZKnZkTeyT9O03xLiqZK5xcTjfn7pV7YQjK5+RV7W25W/F2W8Lyx37O7eLmsdn ehdsY92RLvDIYrL5PO7+c1tXP9mVcf766boahsk//VqTSltyt3+Yu+r7KYav6i5rU579cJW7 ks1nW3Xc/PlOsdXT/JRYijMSDbWYi4oTAdPOUFjGAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:46:45 -0000 --_000_D389A1B7B054christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLING de= finitions. Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used for al= l streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT chan= ge the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Are we = ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value? Regards, Christer ----- The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are re-negotiated. The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are re-negotiated. ----- From: Ice > on behalf of = Christer Holmberg > Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:22 To: Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Hi, >I agree with your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE= role for the entire >session, it only makes sense to use a single tie-brea= ker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role were = re-defined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-stre= am as well. Sure. But, unless it=92s already clear, we will clarify that the ICE role i= s also for the whole session (which is related to the discussion about ICE = roles and restart). Regards, Christer On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote: Hi, I=92ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know the tie-br= eaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let me know = if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draf= t needs some clarifications. Q1: The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker value=94 terminology is used throughou= t the document, but there is no clear =93tie-breaker=94 definition. Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the following = text: "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network by= te order, which contains a random number used for tie- breaking of role conflicts.=94 =85but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following text exists= in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis: =93=85, each agent MUST select a random number, called the tie-breake= r, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1 (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)." Q2: Section 6.1.2.3 says: =93The content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was determined in Section 5.1.2.=94 However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie-brea= ker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245. Q3: It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole ICE s= ession, i.e. all binding requests for all media. There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it was = indicated that this will be clarified in bis: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09708.html I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make sure = that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the tie-= breaker value is used to determine the role. Regards, Christer _______________________________________________ Ice mailing list Ice@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice --_000_D389A1B7B054christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <921ED5C8779741468F918323B636B612@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLI= NG definitions.

Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used f= or all streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT= change the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Ar= e we ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value?

Regards,

Christer

-----

<t>
The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and
indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled
role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in
network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used=
for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker<= /div>
value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,&= nbsp;
for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change&= nbsp;
the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are =
re-negotiated.
</t>

<t>
The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and
indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling<= /div>
role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in
network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used=
for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker<= /div>
value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,<= /div>
for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change&= nbsp;
the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are =
re-negotiated.
</t>

-----

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmb= erg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com>
Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:2= 2
To: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com>
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.= org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-bre= aker issues

Hi,

 

>I agree wit= h your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE role for th= e entire >session, it only makes sense to us= e a single tie-breaker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role were re-de= fined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-stream as well.

 

Sure. But, unless it=92s already clea= r, we will clarify that the ICE role is also for the whole session (which i= s related to the discussion about ICE roles and restart).

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

I=92ve found some issues regarding the = tie-breaker value. I know the tie-breaker has been discussed in e-mails and= /or meetings, so please let me know if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draft needs some = clarifications.

 

 

Q1: 

 

The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker va= lue=94 terminology is used throughout the document, but there is no clear = =93tie-breaker=94 definition.

 

Section 16.1, defining the new STUN att= ributes, does contain the following text:

 

   "The content of the a= ttribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains= a random number used for tie-

   breaking of role conflicts= .=94

 

=85but I think a more clear definition = is needed. The following text exists in RFC 5245, but for some reason it ha= s been removed from bis:

 

      =93=85, each agent= MUST select a random number, called the tie-breaker, uniformly distributed= between 0 and (2**64) - 1

      (that is, a 64-bit= positive integer)."

 

 

Q2:

 

Section 6.1.2.3 says:=

 

   =93The content of either a= ttribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was

   determined in Section 5.1.= 2.=94

 

However, section 5.1.2 does not say any= thing about determining the tie-breaker. This is probably a left-over from = RFC 5245.

 

 

Q3:

 

It is unclear whether a single tie-brea= ker value applies to the whole ICE session, i.e. all binding requests for a= ll media.

 

There was an e-mail discussion related = to this, back in 2012, where it was indicated that this will be clarified i= n bis:

 

 

I ASSUME we want to use the same value = for the whole session, to make sure that an agent takes the same ICE role f= or all media in cases where the tie-breaker value is used to determine the role.

 

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 


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 --_000_D389A1B7B054christerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 02:53:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC6612B012 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wwfTDYw0Vg-V for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A21C912B010 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 02:53:26 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-18-5763c894a6b1 Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.51]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B4.87.12516.498C3675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:53:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC011.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 11:53:21 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christer Holmberg , Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEA Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:53:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.147] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D389A3B2B05Echristerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7se6UE8nhBr936FtcXvGQ1eLbhVoH Jo8Fm0o9liz5yRTAFMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVMfvfGeaCe4cZK17//8fawNi8hrGLkZNDQsBE omf3dSYIW0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcYJY52bmOCcJYwSqxYNZW5i5GDg03AQqL7nzZIg4hAssSV ia/YQMLMAooSL/eqgYSFBfQkGq5MZgIJiwjoSxz+pANR7Sbx5XgP2FoWAVWJqf1n2EFsXgEr ifc3l0Nt+sYosfv5HrB7OAWsJb4eXMUMYjMC3fb91BqwOLOAuMStJ/OhbhaQWLLnPDOELSrx 8vE/VhBbFOiGL/fmMYLcICGgJDFtaxpEa7zEi3VdTBB7BSVOznzCMoFRbBaSqbOQlM1CUgYR N5B4f24+M4StLbFs4WsoW19i45ezjBC2tcSeZc9ZkdUsYORYxShanFpcnJtuZKyXWpSZXFyc n6eXl1qyiREYmwe3/Nbdwbj6teMhRgEORiUe3gTF5HAh1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIrzyx4BCvCmJ lVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTEef1fKoYLCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGPV/63c2T1qR3Loi 20ft3q97c4Qn3L2ppT11HmON9ZJ70dpzvese5s9m1D/6WXAzP5/ClUd7Z58XfS2vXqJ8+uF6 jafcRjN+32qzMdOYWhE48ar6+4THdvNlD946uPq7kqrnrzep5b0THfvl3ht6txZEP17fEftT +MJaCaavO5Tsj58RSinLXafEUpyRaKjFXFScCAAC15cJyQIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 09:53:29 -0000 --_000_D389A3B2B05Echristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Note, though, that the draft contains the following text: "Once roles are determined for a session, they persist unless ICE is restarted. An ICE restart causes a new selection of roles and tie-breakers.=94 =85which indicates that we DO allow new selection of tie-breaker values dur= ing an ICE restart. But, is there really a need to assign new values? Regards, Christer From: Christer Holmberg > Date: Friday 17 June 2016 at 12:46 To: Christer Holmberg >, Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Hi, What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLING de= finitions. Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used for al= l streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT chan= ge the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Are we = ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value? Regards, Christer ----- The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are re-negotiated. The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are re-negotiated. ----- From: Ice > on behalf of = Christer Holmberg > Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:22 To: Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Hi, >I agree with your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE= role for the entire >session, it only makes sense to use a single tie-brea= ker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role were = re-defined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-stre= am as well. Sure. But, unless it=92s already clear, we will clarify that the ICE role i= s also for the whole session (which is related to the discussion about ICE = roles and restart). Regards, Christer On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote: Hi, I=92ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know the tie-br= eaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let me know = if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draf= t needs some clarifications. Q1: The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker value=94 terminology is used throughou= t the document, but there is no clear =93tie-breaker=94 definition. Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the following = text: "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network by= te order, which contains a random number used for tie- breaking of role conflicts.=94 =85but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following text exists= in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis: =93=85, each agent MUST select a random number, called the tie-breake= r, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1 (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)." Q2: Section 6.1.2.3 says: =93The content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was determined in Section 5.1.2.=94 However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie-brea= ker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245. Q3: It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole ICE s= ession, i.e. all binding requests for all media. There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it was = indicated that this will be clarified in bis: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09708.html I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make sure = that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the tie-= breaker value is used to determine the role. Regards, Christer _______________________________________________ Ice mailing list Ice@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice --_000_D389A3B2B05Echristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <6E6BBDB6A815964BA8303FB4D1B53D6D@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Note, though, that the draft contains the following text:

  "Once roles are determined for a session, they persist unl= ess ICE is
   restarted. An ICE restart causes a new selection of roles= and
   tie-breakers.=94

=85which indicates that we DO allow new selection of tie-breaker value= s during an ICE restart. But, is there really a need to assign new values?&= nbsp;

Regards,

Christer


Hi,

What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLI= NG definitions.

Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used f= or all streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT= change the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Ar= e we ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value?

Regards,

Christer

-----

<t>
The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and
indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled
role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in
network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used=
for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker<= /div>
value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,&= nbsp;
for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change&= nbsp;
the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are =
re-negotiated.
</t>

<t>
The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and
indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling<= /div>
role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in
network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used=
for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker<= /div>
value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,<= /div>
for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change&= nbsp;
the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are =
re-negotiated.
</t>

-----

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmb= erg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com>
Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:2= 2
To: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com>
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.= org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-bre= aker issues

Hi,

 

>I agree wit= h your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE role for th= e entire >session, it only makes sense to us= e a single tie-breaker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role were re-de= fined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-stream as well.

 

Sure. But, unless it=92s already clea= r, we will clarify that the ICE role is also for the whole session (which i= s related to the discussion about ICE roles and restart).

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

I=92ve found some issues regarding the = tie-breaker value. I know the tie-breaker has been discussed in e-mails and= /or meetings, so please let me know if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draft needs some = clarifications.

 

 

Q1: 

 

The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker va= lue=94 terminology is used throughout the document, but there is no clear = =93tie-breaker=94 definition.

 

Section 16.1, defining the new STUN att= ributes, does contain the following text:

 

   "The content of the a= ttribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains= a random number used for tie-

   breaking of role conflicts= .=94

 

=85but I think a more clear definition = is needed. The following text exists in RFC 5245, but for some reason it ha= s been removed from bis:

 

      =93=85, each agent= MUST select a random number, called the tie-breaker, uniformly distributed= between 0 and (2**64) - 1

      (that is, a 64-bit= positive integer)."

 

 

Q2:

 

Section 6.1.2.3 says:=

 

   =93The content of either a= ttribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was

   determined in Section 5.1.= 2.=94

 

However, section 5.1.2 does not say any= thing about determining the tie-breaker. This is probably a left-over from = RFC 5245.

 

 

Q3:

 

It is unclear whether a single tie-brea= ker value applies to the whole ICE session, i.e. all binding requests for a= ll media.

 

There was an e-mail discussion related = to this, back in 2012, where it was indicated that this will be clarified i= n bis:

 

 

I ASSUME we want to use the same value = for the whole session, to make sure that an agent takes the same ICE role f= or all media in cases where the tie-breaker value is used to determine the role.

 

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
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--_000_D389A3B2B05Echristerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 03:08:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67D0E12B027 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 03:08:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_JTy5IR7DBe for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 03:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03A4412B01C for ; 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Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:39:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC024.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:39:06 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christer Holmberg , Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEAgAAMxoA= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:39:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D389AE6BB078christerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7lK7X5eRwgyeHbCwur3jIavHtQq0D k8eCTaUeS5b8ZApgiuKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DK2Li9vKDvFmPFhwenmRsYT+9n7GLk5JAQMJHo anjADmGLSVy4t54NxBYSOMIo0fmirIuRC8hewiix6shsoCIODjYBC4nuf9ogNSICyRJXJr5i AwkzCyhKvNyrBhIWFtCTaLgymQkkLCKgL3H4kw5EtZ/Eu0vrwDaxCKhKHF61HWwTr4CVxNN7 P1ghNi1nklh16R8LSIJTwFri/uoNYDYj0GnfT61hArGZBcQlbj2ZzwRxsoDEkj3nmSFsUYmX j/+xgtiiQDd8uTcP6kVFiZ1n25kheuMlJvw4wwKxWFDi5MwnLBMYxWYhGTsLSdksJGUQcQOJ 9+fmM0PY2hLLFr6GsvUlNn45ywhhW0t0fl7ChKxmASPHKkbR4tTipNx0I2O91KLM5OLi/Dy9 vNSSTYzAyDy45bfqDsbLbxwPMQpwMCrx8CYoJocLsSaWFVfmHmKU4GBWEuGtPw8U4k1JrKxK LcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzuv/UjFcSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUIJsvEwSnVwKjmaRMksDxGZGlRm+D0 4yfLW28xCBYVrti9sOL59Kc8Z5erxOyrfdHwauvl3W+TrgjoLXqVw6TWWiZ/lU910qRPq65d 5H6/2E2qICs79GZPQNA8x7aGL/mX/zX8mXrGtVM6zCgjSspj9b+FgcW/94Ve3rjq1Z2Xf4vu tqjfVPEO6nvYtlRzSo8SS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCZJSnzyAIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:39:12 -0000 --_000_D389AE6BB078christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I=92ve created a pull request with a suggestion how to clarify the tie-brea= ker. Note that there is an open issue whether an ICE agent is allowed/required t= o change the tie-breaker value during an ICE restart, or during a tie-break= er role conflict. The current text seems to say that an ICE agent MUST choo= se new values in both cases. https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/7 Regards, Christer From: Christer Holmberg > Date: Friday 17 June 2016 at 12:53 To: Christer Holmberg >, Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Hi, Note, though, that the draft contains the following text: "Once roles are determined for a session, they persist unless ICE is restarted. An ICE restart causes a new selection of roles and tie-breakers.=94 =85which indicates that we DO allow new selection of tie-breaker values dur= ing an ICE restart. But, is there really a need to assign new values? Regards, Christer From: Christer Holmberg > Date: Friday 17 June 2016 at 12:46 To: Christer Holmberg >, Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Hi, What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLING de= finitions. Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used for al= l streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT chan= ge the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Are we = ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value? Regards, Christer ----- The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are re-negotiated. The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are re-negotiated. ----- From: Ice > on behalf of = Christer Holmberg > Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:22 To: Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Hi, >I agree with your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE= role for the entire >session, it only makes sense to use a single tie-brea= ker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role were = re-defined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-stre= am as well. Sure. But, unless it=92s already clear, we will clarify that the ICE role i= s also for the whole session (which is related to the discussion about ICE = roles and restart). Regards, Christer On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote: Hi, I=92ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know the tie-br= eaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let me know = if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draf= t needs some clarifications. Q1: The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker value=94 terminology is used throughou= t the document, but there is no clear =93tie-breaker=94 definition. Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the following = text: "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network by= te order, which contains a random number used for tie- breaking of role conflicts.=94 =85but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following text exists= in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis: =93=85, each agent MUST select a random number, called the tie-breake= r, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1 (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)." Q2: Section 6.1.2.3 says: =93The content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was determined in Section 5.1.2.=94 However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie-brea= ker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245. Q3: It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole ICE s= ession, i.e. all binding requests for all media. There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it was = indicated that this will be clarified in bis: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09708.html I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make sure = that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the tie-= breaker value is used to determine the role. Regards, Christer _______________________________________________ Ice mailing list Ice@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice --_000_D389AE6BB078christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <5ADB771A26C88B4BA3DCF9DAEB4C6167@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I=92ve created a pull request with a suggestion how to clarify the tie= -breaker.

Note that there is an open issue whether an ICE agent is allowed/requi= red to change the tie-breaker value during an ICE restart, or during a tie-= breaker role conflict. The current text seems to say that an ICE agent MUST= choose new values in both cases.


Regards,

Christer


Hi,

Note, though, that the draft contains the following text:

  "Once roles are determined for a session, they persist unl= ess ICE is
   restarted. An ICE restart causes a new selection of roles= and
   tie-breakers.=94

=85which indicates that we DO allow new selection of tie-breaker value= s during an ICE restart. But, is there really a need to assign new values?&= nbsp;

Regards,

Christer


Hi,

What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLI= NG definitions.

Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used f= or all streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT= change the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Ar= e we ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value?

Regards,

Christer

-----

<t>
The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and
indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled
role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in
network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used=
for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker<= /div>
value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,&= nbsp;
for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change&= nbsp;
the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are =
re-negotiated.
</t>

<t>
The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and
indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling<= /div>
role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in
network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used=
for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker<= /div>
value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,<= /div>
for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change&= nbsp;
the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are =
re-negotiated.
</t>

-----

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmb= erg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com>
Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:2= 2
To: Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com>
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.= org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-bre= aker issues

Hi,

 

>I agree wit= h your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single ICE role for th= e entire >session, it only makes sense to us= e a single tie-breaker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role were re-de= fined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-stream as well.

 

Sure. But, unless it=92s already clea= r, we will clarify that the ICE role is also for the whole session (which i= s related to the discussion about ICE roles and restart).

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

 

I=92ve found some issues regarding the = tie-breaker value. I know the tie-breaker has been discussed in e-mails and= /or meetings, so please let me know if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-draft needs some = clarifications.

 

 

Q1: 

 

The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker va= lue=94 terminology is used throughout the document, but there is no clear = =93tie-breaker=94 definition.

 

Section 16.1, defining the new STUN att= ributes, does contain the following text:

 

   "The content of the a= ttribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network byte order, which contains= a random number used for tie-

   breaking of role conflicts= .=94

 

=85but I think a more clear definition = is needed. The following text exists in RFC 5245, but for some reason it ha= s been removed from bis:

 

      =93=85, each agent= MUST select a random number, called the tie-breaker, uniformly distributed= between 0 and (2**64) - 1

      (that is, a 64-bit= positive integer)."

 

 

Q2:

 

Section 6.1.2.3 says:=

 

   =93The content of either a= ttribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was

   determined in Section 5.1.= 2.=94

 

However, section 5.1.2 does not say any= thing about determining the tie-breaker. This is probably a left-over from = RFC 5245.

 

 

Q3:

 

It is unclear whether a single tie-brea= ker value applies to the whole ICE session, i.e. all binding requests for a= ll media.

 

There was an e-mail discussion related = to this, back in 2012, where it was indicated that this will be clarified i= n bis:

 

 

I ASSUME we want to use the same value = for the whole session, to make sure that an agent takes the same ICE role f= or all media in cases where the tie-breaker value is used to determine the role.

 

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

 

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Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6oLZawCbGodE+XQzAhOWc3XJ/i3isAgAAHVICAAA9UgIAACWGAgABL1oCAAAtfgIAKkumA Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:42:23 +0000 Message-ID: <160240D5-F554-49BD-9C98-CBBC987FF095@cisco.com> References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6544C38E-B16B-445E-A23C-E2D14D540667@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804A3E0@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <5B5CF18D-3721-49C7-ADBA-EF5F82498DF6@cisco.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804AABA@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B3804AABA@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.253.67] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_160240D5F55449BD9C98CBBC987FF095ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:49:25 -0000 --_000_160240D5F55449BD9C98CBBC987FF095ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCk9uIDEwIEp1biAyMDE2LCBhdCAyMToxMywgQ2hyaXN0ZXIgSG9sbWJlcmcgPGNocmlz dGVyLmhvbG1iZXJnQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbTxtYWlsdG86Y2hyaXN0ZXIuaG9sbWJlcmdAZXJpY3Nz b24uY29tPj4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCkhpLA0KDQo+NTI0NWJpcyBTZWN0aW9uIDQuMS4yLjEgZXhwbGlj aXRseSBtZW50aW9uIGR1YWwtc3RhY2sgYXMgYSB0eXBlIG9mIG11bHRpaG9taW5nLiBJbiB0aGF0 IHNlY3Rpb24gPml0IG1ha2Ugc2Vuc2UgdG8gcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRoZSBzcGVjaWZpYyBwYXJ0IGlu IGRzZiB0aGF0IGRpc2N1c3NlcyB0aGF0IChTZWN0aW9uIDQpLg0KDQpZZXMuDQoNCj5TZWN0aW9u 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[153.88.183.81]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2C.FB.12516.852F3675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:51:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.112]) by ESESSHC021.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:50:56 +0200 From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEAgAAMxoD///HeAA== Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:50:56 +0000 Message-ID: <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <9BEF6477AA792F48AF7DEB9224A63CFE@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7oG7Ep+Rwg4cXjCwur3jIavHtQq0D k8eCTaUeS5b8ZApgiuKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKWLr3GnvBJrOKrtZzbA2M57W7GDk4JARMJD7s quhi5AQyxSQu3FvPBmILCRxhlGju0Oli5AKylzBKHFv6gREkwSbgKHHq4VpWEFtEwEzi+ude JhCbWcBH4sq7rewgtrCAnkTDlclMIPNFBPQlDn/SgSgPk+je1QY2n0VAVWJH2z0WEJtXwF7i /qzbzBB7bzBJLO2NArE5BawlWvddBVvFCHTb91NroFaJS9x6Mp8J4mYBiSV7zjND2KISLx// Y4WwlSRWbL/ECFFvIPH+3HxmCNtaYuKKRihbW2LZwtfMEDcISpyc+YRlAqP4LCQrZiFpn4Wk fRaS9llI2hcwsq5iFC1OLS7OTTcy1kstykwuLs7P08tLLdnECIyzg1t+6+5gXP3a8RCjAAej Eg9vgmJyuBBrYllxZe4hRgkOZiUR3rgPQCHelMTKqtSi/Pii0pzU4kOM0hwsSuK8/i8Vw4UE 0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2MZYrT/p4oNN7EWDZpZt+Wtyrvbuedijt0oEnjXNnkVZ8Mnh5e IxL09WGQhPupM+kshntezth4UnHpzFW/JM4IXLDPEAvOkDbq6E1byHyprqrunfjnfOnGxWfU FjJ+OOWftmzOlWqtZxvX7rN9c3viI0lRxtI84/wprm6fpe1SNsmcPTPzqWfCdyWW4oxEQy3m ouJEAH1B+aqvAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Taylor Brandstetter Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:51:42 -0000 Hi, I think we should align the non-broker functionality in bis as well as poss= ible with 5245. Since 5245 says that ICE restart allows for tie-breaker cha= nge, we should not change that in bis. For Q1, clarifying sound reasonable. For Q3, same tie-breaker value for whole sessions seems right to me. Cheers, Ari > On 17 Jun 2016, at 13:39, Christer Holmberg wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I=92ve created a pull request with a suggestion how to clarify the tie-br= eaker. >=20 > Note that there is an open issue whether an ICE agent is allowed/required= to change the tie-breaker value during an ICE restart, or during a tie-bre= aker role conflict. The current text seems to say that an ICE agent MUST ch= oose new values in both cases. >=20 > https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/7 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 > From: Christer Holmberg > Date: Friday 17 June 2016 at 12:53 > To: Christer Holmberg , Taylor Brandstett= er > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Note, though, that the draft contains the following text: >=20 > "Once roles are determined for a session, they persist unless ICE is > restarted. An ICE restart causes a new selection of roles and > tie-breakers.=94 >=20 > =85which indicates that we DO allow new selection of tie-breaker values d= uring an ICE restart. But, is there really a need to assign new values?=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 > From: Christer Holmberg > Date: Friday 17 June 2016 at 12:46 > To: Christer Holmberg , Taylor Brandstett= er > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues >=20 > Hi, >=20 > What about the following test for the ICE-CONTROLLED and ICE-CONTROLLING = definitions. >=20 > Note that, in addition to mandating that the same value must be used for = all streams associated with the ICE session, the test also says MUST NOT ch= ange the value during the session =96 not even during an ICE restart. Are w= e ok with that, or do we want to be able to change the value? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 > ----- >=20 > > The ICE-CONTROLLED attribute is present in a Binding request and > indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlled > role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in > network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used > for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker > value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests,=20 > for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change=20 > the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are=20 > re-negotiated. > >=20 > > The ICE-CONTROLLING attribute is present in a Binding request and > indicates that the client believes it is currently in the controlling > role. The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in > network byte order, which contains a random number. The number is used > for solving role conflicts, when it is referred to as the tie-breaker > value. An ICE agent MUST use the same number for all Bining requests, > for all streams, within an ICE session. The ICE agent MUST NOT change=20 > the number when an ICE restart occurs, even if the ICE roles are=20 > re-negotiated. > >=20 > ----- >=20 > From: Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg > Date: Thursday 16 June 2016 at 20:22 > To: Taylor Brandstetter > Cc: "ice@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues >=20 > Hi, > =20 > >I agree with your conclusion to Q3. Since each ICE agent uses a single I= CE role for the entire >session, it only makes sense to use a single tie-br= eaker value for the entire session as well. Of >course, if the ICE role wer= e re-defined to be per-media-stream, the tie-breaker could be per->media-st= ream as well. > =20 > Sure. But, unless it=92s already clear, we will clarify that the ICE role= is also for the whole session (which is related to the discussion about IC= E roles and restart). > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer > =20 > =20 > On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> Hi, >> =20 >> I=92ve found some issues regarding the tie-breaker value. I know the tie= -breaker has been discussed in e-mails and/or meetings, so please let me kn= ow if the issues have been resolved. But, in any case, I think we the bis-d= raft needs some clarifications. >> =20 >> =20 >> Q1:=20 >> =20 >> The =93tie-breaker=94/=93tie-breaker value=94 terminology is used throug= hout the document, but there is no clear =93tie-breaker=94 definition. >> =20 >> Section 16.1, defining the new STUN attributes, does contain the followi= ng text: >> =20 >> "The content of the attribute is a 64-bit unsigned integer in network= byte order, which contains a random number used for tie- >> breaking of role conflicts.=94 >> =20 >> =85but I think a more clear definition is needed. The following text exi= sts in RFC 5245, but for some reason it has been removed from bis: >> =20 >> =93=85, each agent MUST select a random number, called the tie-bre= aker, uniformly distributed between 0 and (2**64) - 1 >> (that is, a 64-bit positive integer)." >> =20 >> =20 >> Q2: >> =20 >> Section 6.1.2.3 says: >> =20 >> =93The content of either attribute MUST be the tie-breaker that was >> determined in Section 5.1.2.=94 >> =20 >> However, section 5.1.2 does not say anything about determining the tie-b= reaker. This is probably a left-over from RFC 5245. >> =20 >> =20 >> Q3: >> =20 >> It is unclear whether a single tie-breaker value applies to the whole IC= E session, i.e. all binding requests for all media. >> =20 >> There was an e-mail discussion related to this, back in 2012, where it w= as indicated that this will be clarified in bis: >> =20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg09708.html >> =20 >> I ASSUME we want to use the same value for the whole session, to make su= re that an agent takes the same ICE role for all media in cases where the t= ie-breaker value is used to determine the role. >> =20 >> =20 >> Regards, >> =20 >> Christer >> =20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>=20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Fri Jun 17 05:52:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F4812D5FC for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id so1pPabbmMwV for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C1AB12D08E for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-81-5763f2846a86 Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.33]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 6F.58.27088.482F3675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:52:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.112]) by ESESSHC005.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 14:52:20 +0200 From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: Christer Holmberg Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEAgAAMxoD///HeAIAAAGQA Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:52:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprLIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7om7Lp+Rwg0XzdSwur3jIavHtQq0D k8eCTaUeS5b8ZApgiuKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKOPPmC2vBa8aK+atfMTUw7mbsYuTkkBAwkXhz sYUdwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMARRon7194ygSSEBJYwSrx8Fgpiswk4Spx6uJYVxBYRMJO4/rkX rIZZwEfiyrutYIOEBfQkGq5MBopzANXoSxz+pANRHiXx5f0yNhCbRUBVYlbPRLBWXgF7iVe3 1rBCrOpjlvi+uB7E5hRwkNj8+xpYPSPQbd9PrYFaJS5x68l8JoibBSSW7DnPDGGLSrx8/I8V wlaSWLH9EiNEvYHE+3PzmSFsa4m3K/6xQdjaEssWvmaGuEFQ4uTMJywTGMVnIVkxC0n7LCTt s5C0z0LSvoCRdRWjaHFqcVJuupGRXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZGYKQd3PLbYAfjy+eOhxgFOBiV eHgTFZPDhVgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwxn0ACvGmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREuf1f6kYLiSQ nliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCUamBUNv99pGnaypkPTCTuirw5eWiTj+WR4Jdztlh5Gm6MYGaZ1CN3 pJ1TzFvjdYP0mjCRS0tvnRc/X8TvXVwoUPQ/98W8U/apUl9X1L+9KPHxeH7Gpvarby89NzrX 5VGUHKjulutkOX992f0gEf5PScsl7fUnxYQ58uRtkPo/t3nvKtMbD+sfKiQosRRnJBpqMRcV JwIAcNOnKLACAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Taylor Brandstetter Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:52:24 -0000 > On 17 Jun 2016, at 15:52, Ari Ker=E4nen wrote: >=20 > I think we should align the non-broker functionality in bis as well as po= ssible with 5245. s/non-broker/non-broken/ (DYAC) Cheers, Ari= From nobody Fri Jun 17 10:16:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E281012D8D8 for ; 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Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.233.194 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:16:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:16:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1477d2b885ae05357c841a Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:16:45 -0000 --94eb2c1477d2b885ae05357c841a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The "ICE restart must change tie-breaker" rule is something I also noticed and brought up here . It seems pointless, but it also doesn't do any harm. So I don't have any objection to keeping it in. Also, just an editorial comment: It may make more sense to define the tie-breaker in its own section. Perhaps after "Determining ICE Role". On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote: > > > On 17 Jun 2016, at 15:52, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen w= rote: > > > > I think we should align the non-broker functionality in bis as well as > possible with 5245. > > s/non-broker/non-broken/ > (DYAC) > > > Cheers, > Ari --94eb2c1477d2b885ae05357c841a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The "ICE restart must change tie-breaker" rule i= s something I also noticed and brought up here.
It seems pointless= , but it also doesn't do any harm. So I don't have any objection to= keeping it in.

Also, just an editorial comment: I= t may make more sense to define the tie-breaker in its own section. Perhaps= after "Determining ICE Role".

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Ari Ker= =C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> wrote:

> On 17 Jun 2016, at 15:52, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I think we should align the non-broker functionality in bis as well as= possible with 5245.

s/non-broker/non-broken/
(DYAC)


Cheers,
Ari

--94eb2c1477d2b885ae05357c841a-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 10:38:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9121512D8E6 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csv6VFpwCAw1 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CC7D12D8F2 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id v48so41039258qgd.2 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZYPQov4Oxp8O5o6zA7HUquDBkN45vbyvU/lD2SAwNKA=; b=JbbtdCfi1gFG+cVJiWpnroDt8OJk2qSVuSdoss/cP5k/f1At4WPth3bEGghvc1K8lp GxFqUVgRuXdeyUAugAKXg++wmN/vogZ5FYxgrE2tptCw3PX+l5nXsaql5/TlkWbvn4Mi uPbPiZBb+Ug2ejKSjq1xX0VhQ1NiLPXVppZUGJgLBAsc4KHFqKlanXHTFuJtAxzgSGJF QzA7qQsIPOs7SwXpEEm+Q6DM+IG5xwW7ak4SFhyn+rfSDVxg9sC6PYYJ4h7xlSGP5zIb HN6fvDNBgGIrg45k4JLaC2M+VyPaLSXfOJJDZl2dT8O6Sw0gaRPstDpCZB5FNVV/Kdmz W6hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZYPQov4Oxp8O5o6zA7HUquDBkN45vbyvU/lD2SAwNKA=; b=KbRsKlbjDj6Uti2OvkrWpjuR+FUuU3mCwOQDzywZ21+gCFAt8HwU5qhaEtMGIXd3Hw V4QuW119umroNqLIU8Sx1EEzVycdCb823UJN0ktbou+Mj8rd++4P4l3vtVei/3ViRzqo vGTebCZRJlzRoaOp5IzK+3a5FaK5b7UEATHN+nRifgTbn9tfnhnh7fiNtcBmucwEtoay Eg13cfi6PM5XdA8/Rr85WQN9lmMjzTnaFwNEpAB0JHVDIGMTqumWP56zyM1CLmLILDq7 J1VghFbsziid6YAIpioKonk5y5y1bbTntrJUWeRq96W+PZbZBg0GObMrl6piTx+2CcX/ Dxeg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL5+yB51RpxBn8OTDZsHZBdKK9sBxD+kAtikAEuw76+8ZRn6Ovx8iNpVetPAlvHbKI7bV91hKbXGXJZl/DX X-Received: by 10.140.100.240 with SMTP id s103mr3671630qge.39.1466185098183; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.189.195 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> From: Peter Thatcher Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:37:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Taylor Brandstetter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c16cccf4343805357cd1e6 Archived-At: Cc: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= , Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:38:23 -0000 --001a11c16cccf4343805357cd1e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it doesn't matter whether or not an implementation does something (such as changing the ICE breaker), then =E2=80=8BI'd suggest to just remove it f= rom the spec: a shorter spec, and less to worry about. If it must stay, then at least make it a SHOULD instead of a MUST so implementations don't have to do something pointless. On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter wrote: > The "ICE restart must change tie-breaker" rule is something I also notice= d > and brought up here > . > It seems pointless, but it also doesn't do any harm. So I don't have any > objection to keeping it in. > > Also, just an editorial comment: It may make more sense to define the > tie-breaker in its own section. Perhaps after "Determining ICE Role". > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen > wrote: > >> >> > On 17 Jun 2016, at 15:52, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen = wrote: >> > >> > I think we should align the non-broker functionality in bis as well as >> possible with 5245. >> >> s/non-broker/non-broken/ >> (DYAC) >> >> >> Cheers, >> Ari > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --001a11c16cccf4343805357cd1e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If it doesn't matter whether or not an implementati= on does something (such as changing the ICE breaker), then =E2=80=8BI'd= suggest to just remove it from the spec: =C2=A0a shorter spec, and less to= worry about.=C2=A0 If it must stay, then at least make it a SHOULD instead= of a MUST so implementations don't have to do something pointless.

On Fri, J= un 17, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com&g= t; wrote:
The &qu= ot;ICE restart must change tie-breaker" rule is something I also notic= ed and brought up here.
It seems pointless, but = it also doesn't do any harm. So I don't have any objection to keepi= ng it in.

Also, just an editorial comment: It may = make more sense to define the tie-breaker in its own section. Perhaps after= "Determining ICE Role".

On Fri= , Jun 17, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson= .com> wrote:

> On 17 Jun 2016, at 15:52, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> wro= te:
>
> I think we should align the non-broker functionality in bis as well as= possible with 5245.

s/non-broker/non-broken/
(DYAC)


Cheers,
Ari


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


--001a11c16cccf4343805357cd1e6-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 13:21:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B1112DA70 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TsB7BPYeSumH for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CF1912D1ED for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:21:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79386d00000467b-33-57645bba0594 Received: from ESESSHC019.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.75]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 8C.51.18043.ABB54675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:21:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC019.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:21:14 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Thatcher , Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEAgAAMxoD///HeAIAAAGQAgABJiICAAAXaAIAATd3w Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:21:14 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059C0A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US 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RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s3O15-Zxz4i2 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9B5512D887 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 13:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79386d00000467b-c8-57645caf6764 Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.69]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E5.91.18043.FAC54675; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:25:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.154]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:25:19 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Thatcher , Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEAgAAMxoD///HeAIAAAGQAgABJiICAAAXaAIAATd3wgAACXwA= Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 20:25:18 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059CB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059C0A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059C0A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059CB4ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7q+6GmJRwg7ffGC0ur3jIavHtQq3F 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dGYub3JnIj5JY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmc8L2E+PGJyPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pY2UiIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ljZTwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90 ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+DQo8 L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059CB4ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Fri Jun 17 15:31:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5213D12DBFB for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ILkHJfNlCo8 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F26012DBF8 for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 15:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id u5HMVPem093396 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:31:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.4] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:31:27 -0500 Message-ID: <7EF56049-A57F-4009-B470-7F1B9B0C5022@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 22:31:31 -0000 Hi, In your opinion, is this version ready to move to IETF last call? Or do you plan other updates. I note that section 5, paragraph 3 has one remaining upper-case MUST. We can deal with that after IETF last call (but don't be surprised if people comment on it.) Thanks! Ben. On 10 Jun 2016, at 7:07, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > Hi all, > > This version tries to address issues during IESG review. > > - Changed Intended Status to Best Current Practices > - All references are now to ICEbis not ICE. > - Changes to reflect proposed new text in ICEbis > - Both ICEbis and this draft cross reference each other. > > Proposed changes to ICEbis > > Section 4.1.2.1 > > Old text: > If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference > SHOULD be set equal to the precedence value for IP addresses described > in RFC 6724 [RFC6724]. If the host operating system provides an API > for discovering preference among different addresses, those > preferences SHOULD be used for the local preference to prioritize > addresses indicated as preferred by the operating system. > > New text: > If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local preference > should be set acording to the current best practice described in > RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness]. > > Open Issues: > - No capital SHOULD when referring to a BCP? > - Fairness draft updated to mention RFC6724 so we can avoid referring > it > in ICEbis? > - Make ICEbis as simple as possible and let people read the fairness > BCP for details? At least avoid having the same information in both > RFCs. > > > Section 4.1.2.2 > > New text: > One criterion for selection of the type and local preference values is > the use of a media intermediary, such as a TURN server, a tunnel > service such as VPN server, or NAT. With a media intermediary, if > media is sent to that candidate, it will first transit the media > intermediary before being received. Relayed candidates are one type > of candidate that involves a media intermediary. Another are host > candidates obtained from a VPN interface. When media is transited > through a media intermediary, it can increase the latency between > transmission and reception. It may or may not increase the packet > losses, because of the additional router hops that may be taken. It > may increase the cost of providing service, since media will be routed > in and right back out of a media intermediary run by a provider. If > these concerns are important, the type preference for relayed > candidates SHOULD be lower than host candidates. The RECOMMENDED > values are 126 for host candidates, 100 for server reflexive > candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed > candidates. > > Furthermore, if an agent is multihomed and has multiple IP addresses, > the recomandation in RFCXXXX [dual-stack fairnes] should be followed. > If multiple TURN servers are used, local priorities for the candidates > obtained from the TURN servers are chosen in a similar fashion as for > multihomed local candidates: the local preference value is used to > indicate preference among different servers but the preference MUST be > unique for each one. > > Another criterion for selection of preferences is IP address family. > ICE works with both IPv4 and IPv6. It therefore provides a transition > mechanism that allows dual-stack hosts to prefer connectivity over > IPv6, but to fall back to IPv4 in case the v6 networks are > disconnected. Implementation should follow the gudlines from RFCXXX > [dualstack-fairnes] to avoid ecessive dealys in the connectivity check > phase if broken paths exists. > > Another criterion for selecting preferences might be security or > privacy. If a user is a telecommuter, and therefore connected to a > corporate network and a local home network, the user may prefer their > voice traffic to be routed over the VPN or similar tunnel in order to > keep it on the corporate network when communicating within the > enterprise, but use the local network when communicating with users > outside of the enterprise. In such a case, a VPN address would have a > higher local preference than any other address. > > Open Issues: > - Relaxing language that indicates bad bad things happen if a relay is > involved. > - Removed Text regarding 6to4. Anyone using it?(NAT64 and DNS64 is the > - way to go?) Can add text to the > fairness draft to simplify ICEbis. 6to4 is a tunnel and the fairness > draft talks about tunnels. (None mentioned for the far of calling > out the bad ones..) > - Added privacy to as a VPN example as well. > - I feel more text is needed if we want to keep the VPN text there. We > need to explain split tunneling and how that migh or might not be > available. Some wording regarding IP adreess leakege would also be > beneficial. > > > > .-. > PÃ¥l-Erik > >> On 10 Jun 2016, at 13:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity >> Establishment of the IETF. >> >> Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack >> Fairness >> Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen >> Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Prashanth Patil >> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt >> Pages : 10 >> Date : 2016-06-10 >> >> Abstract: >> This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive >> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and >> IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The >> provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE >> specification. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Mon Jun 20 04:01:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0053812D53C; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:01:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160620110118.30202.67008.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:01:18 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:01:19 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF. Title : Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Authors : Ari Keranen Christer Holmberg Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-03.txt Pages : 93 Date : 2016-06-20 Abstract: This document describes a protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal for UDP-based multimedia. This protocol is called Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE). ICE makes use of the Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) protocol and its extension, Traversal Using Relay NAT (TURN). This document obsoletes RFC 5245. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jun 20 04:05:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A36612D0B0 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vwUC3HoOznPw for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2F4212D0AA for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 04:05:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-79-5767ce038b24 Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.66]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 45.20.12516.30EC7675; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:05:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.241]) by ESESSHC016.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.66]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:05:39 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-03 Thread-Index: AQHRyuOt2s2dTQngEkW/wBkpJQhndQ== Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:05:39 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38DA995B1C1christerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdSZf5XHq4wbklxhbfLtQ6MHosWfKT KYAxissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStjxZ6nbAX/eSvWPLnM3MD4nruLkZNDQsBEYu+xw4wQtpjEhXvr 2boYuTiEBI4wSrR/PskKkhASWMIosWS+SBcjBwebgIVE9z9tkLCIgKLEzJZnzCC2MFC4/8cT doi4rcSc45dYIGw9iY5FN5lAbBYBVYntB/tZQMbwClhJzPqdDRJmBFr7/dQasBJmAXGJW0/m M0GcIyCxZM95ZghbVOLl439g14gCjfxybx7UyYoSO8+2M4OMZBaIl5j5MwAkzCsgKHFy5hOW CYzCs5BMnYVQNQtJFUSJgcT7c/OZIWxtiWULX0PZ+hIbv5xlhLCtJfp23kJRs4CRYxWjaHFq cXFuupGxXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZGYOQc3PJbdwfj6teOhxgFOBiVeHgX3E0LF2JNLCuuzD3E KMHBrCTCe/V0ergQb0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVxXv+XiuFCAumJJanZqakFqUUwWSYO TqkGxp6FSfcZ9xze9WHvmjAWQ8aSzsNxJxRLH85JfGoyu0xQ+XJAxWbOvSFsLGtOuVzYWcAu lvA+Jb1U5LrwJBGZR32f6tbfXCHF8+G7yvRXyduN/qhuOr36d/kn5WUpx31ubtsVp+1UHiG5 9YmTxfpOY5s3j5YsXrukii/T6lJqKA93zde39Zb/1yuxFGckGmoxFxUnAgAFNd/QmAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-03 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 11:05:43 -0000 --_000_D38DA995B1C1christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I=92ve submitted a new version (-03) of draft-5245bis. Based on the agreements in Buenos Aires, the following changes have been im= plemented: * The same Ta/RTO formula is used for RTP-based and non-RTP-based media * The default Ta value has changed * Usage of RTP no-op and comfort noise has been removed from the keepal= ives section All agreements in Buenos Aires have now been implemented. Regards, Christer --_000_D38DA995B1C1christerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <662FF498FB6CAA4E8FC96D91CB9CF240@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I=92ve submitted a new version (-03) of draft-5245bis.

Based on the agreements in Buenos Aires, the following changes have be= en implemented:

  • The same Ta/RTO formula is used for RTP-based and non-RTP-based media
  • The default Ta value has changed
  • Usage of RTP no-op and comf= ort noise has been removed from the keepalives section
All agreements in Buenos Aires have now been implemented.

Regards,

Christer
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Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6oLZawCbGodE+XQzAhOWc3XJ/i3isAgAuuvoCABBiRgA== Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:04:27 +0000 Message-ID: <0292C38D-7869-4635-8B24-0A1E97C679C3@cisco.com> References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7EF56049-A57F-4009-B470-7F1B9B0C5022@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <7EF56049-A57F-4009-B470-7F1B9B0C5022@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.250.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <01E3132BD34BF34EA453193566A76FF2@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity 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claimed to be [10.0.1.4] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:45:16 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0292C38D-7869-4635-8B24-0A1E97C679C3@cisco.com> References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7EF56049-A57F-4009-B470-7F1B9B0C5022@nostrum.com> <0292C38D-7869-4635-8B24-0A1E97C679C3@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:45:21 -0000 On 20 Jun 2016, at 8:04, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> On 18 Jun 2016, at 00:31, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> In your opinion, is this version ready to move to IETF last call? Or >> do >> you plan other updates. >> > No plans for updating the dualstack-fairness draft. Probably some nits > remaining in 5245bis to properly reference and clean up surrounding > text. > > If something significant changes in rfc 5245bis the dualstack fairness > draft might need to be updated. With the normative reference, this won't be published until 5245bis is published. We can progress this draft now and let it wait in the RFC editors queue, where we could make a last minute change if necessary. Or we could hold this draft back in the working group and progress them together. I favor the former. Does anyone think otherwise? > >> I note that section 5, paragraph 3 has one remaining upper-case MUST. >> We >> can deal with that after IETF last call (but don't be surprised if >> people comment on it.) >> > That MUST is part of a quote from rfc5245bis section 4.1.2. (Actually > it should be section 4.1.2.1 to be more precise, can submit a new > version to fix that, but waiting to see if any more changes are > necessary if ICEBis changes.) > > So hopefully it is ok to quote text from another RFC containing > uppercase MUST without needing to have the standard MUST, SHOULD etc > boilerplate? Ah, on closer inspection the quote is fine as is. > > .-. > PÃ¥l-Erik > >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On 10 Jun 2016, at 7:07, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This version tries to address issues during IESG review. >>> >>> - Changed Intended Status to Best Current Practices >>> - All references are now to ICEbis not ICE. >>> - Changes to reflect proposed new text in ICEbis >>> - Both ICEbis and this draft cross reference each other. >>> >>> Proposed changes to ICEbis >>> >>> Section 4.1.2.1 >>> >>> Old text: >>> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local >>> preference >>> SHOULD be set equal to the precedence value for IP addresses >>> described >>> in RFC 6724 [RFC6724]. If the host operating system provides an API >>> for discovering preference among different addresses, those >>> preferences SHOULD be used for the local preference to prioritize >>> addresses indicated as preferred by the operating system. >>> >>> New text: >>> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local >>> preference >>> should be set acording to the current best practice described in >>> RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness]. >>> >>> Open Issues: >>> - No capital SHOULD when referring to a BCP? >>> - Fairness draft updated to mention RFC6724 so we can avoid >>> referring >>> it >>> in ICEbis? >>> - Make ICEbis as simple as possible and let people read the fairness >>> BCP for details? At least avoid having the same information in both >>> RFCs. >>> >>> >>> Section 4.1.2.2 >>> >>> New text: >>> One criterion for selection of the type and local preference values >>> is >>> the use of a media intermediary, such as a TURN server, a tunnel >>> service such as VPN server, or NAT. With a media intermediary, if >>> media is sent to that candidate, it will first transit the media >>> intermediary before being received. Relayed candidates are one type >>> of candidate that involves a media intermediary. Another are host >>> candidates obtained from a VPN interface. When media is transited >>> through a media intermediary, it can increase the latency between >>> transmission and reception. It may or may not increase the packet >>> losses, because of the additional router hops that may be taken. It >>> may increase the cost of providing service, since media will be >>> routed >>> in and right back out of a media intermediary run by a provider. If >>> these concerns are important, the type preference for relayed >>> candidates SHOULD be lower than host candidates. The RECOMMENDED >>> values are 126 for host candidates, 100 for server reflexive >>> candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed >>> candidates. >>> >>> Furthermore, if an agent is multihomed and has multiple IP >>> addresses, >>> the recomandation in RFCXXXX [dual-stack fairnes] should be >>> followed. >>> If multiple TURN servers are used, local priorities for the >>> candidates >>> obtained from the TURN servers are chosen in a similar fashion as >>> for >>> multihomed local candidates: the local preference value is used to >>> indicate preference among different servers but the preference MUST >>> be >>> unique for each one. >>> >>> Another criterion for selection of preferences is IP address family. >>> ICE works with both IPv4 and IPv6. It therefore provides a >>> transition >>> mechanism that allows dual-stack hosts to prefer connectivity over >>> IPv6, but to fall back to IPv4 in case the v6 networks are >>> disconnected. Implementation should follow the gudlines from RFCXXX >>> [dualstack-fairnes] to avoid ecessive dealys in the connectivity >>> check >>> phase if broken paths exists. >>> >>> Another criterion for selecting preferences might be security or >>> privacy. If a user is a telecommuter, and therefore connected to a >>> corporate network and a local home network, the user may prefer >>> their >>> voice traffic to be routed over the VPN or similar tunnel in order >>> to >>> keep it on the corporate network when communicating within the >>> enterprise, but use the local network when communicating with users >>> outside of the enterprise. In such a case, a VPN address would have >>> a >>> higher local preference than any other address. >>> >>> Open Issues: >>> - Relaxing language that indicates bad bad things happen if a relay >>> is >>> involved. >>> - Removed Text regarding 6to4. Anyone using it?(NAT64 and DNS64 is >>> the >>> - way to go?) Can add text to the >>> fairness draft to simplify ICEbis. 6to4 is a tunnel and the >>> fairness >>> draft talks about tunnels. (None mentioned for the far of calling >>> out the bad ones..) >>> - Added privacy to as a VPN example as well. >>> - I feel more text is needed if we want to keep the VPN text there. >>> We >>> need to explain split tunneling and how that migh or might not be >>> available. Some wording regarding IP adreess leakege would also be >>> beneficial. >>> >>> >>> >>> .-. >>> PÃ¥l-Erik >>> >>>> On 10 Jun 2016, at 13:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>> directories. >>>> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity >>>> Establishment of the IETF. >>>> >>>> Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack >>>> Fairness >>>> Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen >>>> Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>> Prashanth Patil >>>> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt >>>> Pages : 10 >>>> Date : 2016-06-10 >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive >>>> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and >>>> IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The >>>> provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE >>>> specification. >>>> >>>> >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ >>>> >>>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>>> >>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>> submission >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at >>>> tools.ietf.org. >>>> >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ice mailing list >>>> Ice@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Tue Jun 21 04:42:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554D312D561 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:42:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y8ojEGSI-20T for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C719D12D54D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-fb-57692814ff94 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.42]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 21.95.12516.41829675; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:42:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.241]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:41:37 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Christer Holmberg , Peter Thatcher , Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: tie-breaker issues Thread-Index: AQHRx8nOJ+HGKwIIY0+x/UxagK/WUZ/sKkcAgAAs5LCAASVQgIAAAeEAgAAMxoD///HeAIAAAGQAgABJiICAAAXaAIAATd3wgAACXwCABcj6gA== Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:41:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38057919@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7547CF86-5198-48D2-8969-E479805B959E@ericsson.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059C0A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059CB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38059CB4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38F0314B329christerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrNIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7lq6IRma4wcLPehaXVzxktfh2odbi 2vLXrA7MHgs2lXosWfKTKYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStjwuzrTAXd8xkrdr9ex9zA+GoWYxcj J4eEgInEuqavbBC2mMSFe+vBbCGBI4wS89qUIewljBI7vrt3MXJwsAlYSHT/0+5i5OIQEehi lNi8axILSA2zQIzEmV0n2UFsYQE9iYYrk5lA6kUE9CUOf9IBCYsI1EksuPsbbC2LgKrEz/2H wFbxClhJ7FkO0soFtOoWq8TeT//B5nAK+Enc/9EEZjMC3fb91BomiF3iEreezGeCuFlAYsme 88wQtqjEy8f/WEFsUaAbvtybB/WjosTHV/sYIXrjJe5Muc8OsVhQ4uTMJywTGMVmIRk7C0nZ 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ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB7A12B00A for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pMluYenP5tmd for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9138C12B00B for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-17-57692acabb1c Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.33]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EB.F7.12516.ACA29675; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:53:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.241]) by ESESSHC005.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:53:43 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Ben Campbell , Pal Martinsen Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRww6nJ/0ewn6wGki81dDJBOldUp/ieZkAgAuuu4CABBiUgIAAHCsAgAGVvwA= Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:53:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7EF56049-A57F-4009-B470-7F1B9B0C5022@nostrum.com> <0292C38D-7869-4635-8B24-0A1E97C679C3@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.4.160422 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.16] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <2EB2BB6E0A3ACB4DBE975BE97DE5138D@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7ou4prcxwgwkzrC3md55mt/h2odbi /fWVLA7MHlN+b2T1WLLkJ5PHrJ1PWAKYo7hsUlJzMstSi/TtErgy3tx5yV7wzLNiyd45bA2M m6y7GDk5JARMJBZ8bmKCsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCEUWLBsalQzhJGiT+/z7J3MXJwsAlYSHT/ 0wZpEBFwk1jUNYkVJMwsoCjxcq8aSFhYwF3i7cxOFpCwiICHRP/RTIhqP4nOVXsYQcIsAqoS n89EgoR5Bawknj38zwSxaCKTxLJvHxhBEpwC9hJf5uxlBrEZgU77fmoN2JnMAuISt57MhzpZ QGLJnvPMELaoxMvH/1hBbFEBPYkv9+YxQsQVJXaebWeG6NWTuDF1ChuEbS3R+mQNVFxbYtnC 18wQBwlKnJz5hGUCo8QsJOtmIWmfhaR9FpL2WUjaFzCyrmIULU4tLs5NNzLWSy3KTC4uzs/T y0st2cQIjMqDW37r7mBc/drxEKMAB6MSD6+Cfka4EGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRFeK43McCHelMTK qtSi/Pii0pzU4kOM0hwsSuK8/i8Vw4UE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2MjhHXSh1z+K99//+c +YnFrsD5Cff+vkr+cGBfrbLmLO3T78oZEq/veeN7VuHsh9a2D6sqWJM/ufVsDP8az2ysstkk S9c3Ymr7noWMUftZw95PSfHZLpfe3bBzp3VCbofY2R2J9pJPpt09/Om/gYrLtwOSJ90Wx33U 8HqgHn383oPm+PKVwcdjlFiKMxINtZiLihMBRO8SCMYCAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:53:52 -0000 Hi, I agree that we should progress the draft, if the community considers that it=B9s ready. There is a long list of drafts coming up, so let=B9s move forward whatever we can. I also ask people to take a look at the 5245bis pull request that P=E5l has created for this: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/8 I intend to merge it, and submit a new version of draft-5245bis, relatively soon. Regards, Christer On 20/06/16 17:45, "Ice on behalf of Ben Campbell" wrote: >On 20 Jun 2016, at 8:04, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > >>> On 18 Jun 2016, at 00:31, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> In your opinion, is this version ready to move to IETF last call? Or >>> do >>> you plan other updates. >>> >> No plans for updating the dualstack-fairness draft. Probably some nits >> remaining in 5245bis to properly reference and clean up surrounding >> text. >> >> If something significant changes in rfc 5245bis the dualstack fairness >> draft might need to be updated. > >With the normative reference, this won't be published until 5245bis is >published. We can progress this draft now and let it wait in the RFC >editors queue, where we could make a last minute change if necessary. Or >we could hold this draft back in the working group and progress them >together. > >I favor the former. Does anyone think otherwise? > >> >>> I note that section 5, paragraph 3 has one remaining upper-case MUST. >>> We >>> can deal with that after IETF last call (but don't be surprised if >>> people comment on it.) >>> >> That MUST is part of a quote from rfc5245bis section 4.1.2. (Actually >> it should be section 4.1.2.1 to be more precise, can submit a new >> version to fix that, but waiting to see if any more changes are >> necessary if ICEBis changes.) >> >> So hopefully it is ok to quote text from another RFC containing >> uppercase MUST without needing to have the standard MUST, SHOULD etc >> boilerplate? > >Ah, on closer inspection the quote is fine as is. > >> >> .-. >> P=E5l-Erik >> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Ben. >>> >>> On 10 Jun 2016, at 7:07, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> This version tries to address issues during IESG review. >>>> >>>> - Changed Intended Status to Best Current Practices >>>> - All references are now to ICEbis not ICE. >>>> - Changes to reflect proposed new text in ICEbis >>>> - Both ICEbis and this draft cross reference each other. >>>> >>>> Proposed changes to ICEbis >>>> >>>> Section 4.1.2.1 >>>> >>>> Old text: >>>> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local >>>> preference >>>> SHOULD be set equal to the precedence value for IP addresses >>>> described >>>> in RFC 6724 [RFC6724]. If the host operating system provides an API >>>> for discovering preference among different addresses, those >>>> preferences SHOULD be used for the local preference to prioritize >>>> addresses indicated as preferred by the operating system. >>>> >>>> New text: >>>> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local >>>> preference >>>> should be set acording to the current best practice described in >>>> RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness]. >>>> >>>> Open Issues: >>>> - No capital SHOULD when referring to a BCP? >>>> - Fairness draft updated to mention RFC6724 so we can avoid >>>> referring >>>> it >>>> in ICEbis? >>>> - Make ICEbis as simple as possible and let people read the fairness >>>> BCP for details? At least avoid having the same information in both >>>> RFCs. >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 4.1.2.2 >>>> >>>> New text: >>>> One criterion for selection of the type and local preference values >>>> is >>>> the use of a media intermediary, such as a TURN server, a tunnel >>>> service such as VPN server, or NAT. With a media intermediary, if >>>> media is sent to that candidate, it will first transit the media >>>> intermediary before being received. Relayed candidates are one type >>>> of candidate that involves a media intermediary. Another are host >>>> candidates obtained from a VPN interface. When media is transited >>>> through a media intermediary, it can increase the latency between >>>> transmission and reception. It may or may not increase the packet >>>> losses, because of the additional router hops that may be taken. It >>>> may increase the cost of providing service, since media will be >>>> routed >>>> in and right back out of a media intermediary run by a provider. If >>>> these concerns are important, the type preference for relayed >>>> candidates SHOULD be lower than host candidates. The RECOMMENDED >>>> values are 126 for host candidates, 100 for server reflexive >>>> candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed >>>> candidates. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, if an agent is multihomed and has multiple IP >>>> addresses, >>>> the recomandation in RFCXXXX [dual-stack fairnes] should be >>>> followed. >>>> If multiple TURN servers are used, local priorities for the >>>> candidates >>>> obtained from the TURN servers are chosen in a similar fashion as >>>> for >>>> multihomed local candidates: the local preference value is used to >>>> indicate preference among different servers but the preference MUST >>>> be >>>> unique for each one. >>>> >>>> Another criterion for selection of preferences is IP address family. >>>> ICE works with both IPv4 and IPv6. It therefore provides a >>>> transition >>>> mechanism that allows dual-stack hosts to prefer connectivity over >>>> IPv6, but to fall back to IPv4 in case the v6 networks are >>>> disconnected. Implementation should follow the gudlines from RFCXXX >>>> [dualstack-fairnes] to avoid ecessive dealys in the connectivity >>>> check >>>> phase if broken paths exists. >>>> >>>> Another criterion for selecting preferences might be security or >>>> privacy. If a user is a telecommuter, and therefore connected to a >>>> corporate network and a local home network, the user may prefer >>>> their >>>> voice traffic to be routed over the VPN or similar tunnel in order >>>> to >>>> keep it on the corporate network when communicating within the >>>> enterprise, but use the local network when communicating with users >>>> outside of the enterprise. In such a case, a VPN address would have >>>> a >>>> higher local preference than any other address. >>>> >>>> Open Issues: >>>> - Relaxing language that indicates bad bad things happen if a relay >>>> is >>>> involved. >>>> - Removed Text regarding 6to4. Anyone using it?(NAT64 and DNS64 is >>>> the >>>> - way to go?) Can add text to the >>>> fairness draft to simplify ICEbis. 6to4 is a tunnel and the >>>> fairness >>>> draft talks about tunnels. (None mentioned for the far of calling >>>> out the bad ones..) >>>> - Added privacy to as a VPN example as well. >>>> - I feel more text is needed if we want to keep the VPN text there. >>>> We >>>> need to explain split tunneling and how that migh or might not be >>>> available. Some wording regarding IP adreess leakege would also be >>>> beneficial. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> .-. >>>> P=E5l-Erik >>>> >>>>> On 10 Jun 2016, at 13:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>>> directories. >>>>> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity >>>>> Establishment of the IETF. >>>>> >>>>> Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack >>>>> Fairness >>>>> Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen >>>>> Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>> Prashanth Patil >>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt >>>>> Pages : 10 >>>>> Date : 2016-06-10 >>>>> >>>>> Abstract: >>>>> This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive >>>>> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and >>>>> IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The >>>>> provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE >>>>> specification. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ >>>>> >>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>>>> >>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>>>=20 >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-= 03 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>>> submission >>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at >>>>> tools.ietf.org. >>>>> >>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Ice mailing list >>>>> Ice@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ice mailing list >>>> Ice@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > >_______________________________________________ >Ice mailing list >Ice@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Tue Jun 21 21:02:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF12512D8B8 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:02:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kMTWM18v8JOl for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DFA12D1AD for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (unknown [73.34.202.214]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 09C60E8288; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:15:19 -0600 (MDT) To: Peter Thatcher , ice@ietf.org References: From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <8c823265-fdce-f7a1-2c6e-10030155fb97@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:02:21 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] One more idea for how to resolve trickle ICE freezing behavior X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:02:25 -0000 On 4/5/16 2:26 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > (With chair hat off) > > We still haven't figured out how to handle the freezing algorithm for > trickle ICE. I'd be happy with saying "freezing is an optimization left > to the implementation" and leave it out of the spec, which avoids the > issue altogether. But if that doesn't work, here's another idea: > > Change the rule from > > "attempts to unfreeze all candidates belonging to the first component on > the first media stream" > > to > > "attempts to unfreeze all candidates belonging to the first component on > the first media stream /of the candidates received so far/" Is that equivalent to the following? "attempts to unfreeze all candidates it has received so far that belong to the first component on the first media stream" > This means that if you receive a trickled candidate out of order > according to the "stream/component order", then its unfrozen. When you > receive a trickled candidate later that is earlier in that order, then > its unfrozen also. This avoids candidates being frozen indefinitely > and at worse leads to some candidates being unfrozen prematurely. That seems reasonable. > This has solves our problem with little downside. I propose we use it > and remove the requirement that candidates be signaled in > "media/component order". The trickle spec makes a kind of "nesting" assumption (inherited from 5245 and 5245bis): a candidate exists within the context of a component, which in turn exists within the context of a media stream. I think this is what you mean by an "order". However, the trickle spec uses the term "media stream" (not "media" vs. "stream"), so I'm not sure how you understand the difference between "stream/component order" and "media/component order". If you could clarify that, I'd be most grateful. Thanks! Peter From nobody Wed Jun 22 10:19:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589F812D1EB for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:19:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qFOKYwKUahP6 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEFFB12B05D for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:19:12 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79386d00000467b-a2-576ac88f4126 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.42]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C4.8D.18043.F88CA675; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:19:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.140]) by ESESSHC008.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:18:50 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@tools.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-ice-trickle outdated reference Thread-Index: AQHRzKok4ngNX3uvTEiITkGbfDbHuQ== Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:18:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <348670A3546C064493B19FEEB3757EE4@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbFdS7f/RFa4wcM9vBb9PzpZLb5dqHVg 8liy5CeTx5fLn9kCmKK4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mh5MDyn4y1qx99Ny1gbG2yxdjJwcEgImEnef 9DJC2GISF+6tZ+ti5OIQEjjCKNH28QQLhLOEUeLg4VnMIFVsAvYSk9d8BOsQEQiVOPN+L5jN LCApsfbzUnYQW1jASOLNuRVsEDXmElO372SCsPUkLs9dzApiswioSrxfuAbM5gWa+WLSZrD5 jEBXfD+1hgliprjErSfzmSCuE5BYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T9WCFtJYtHtz1D1ehI3pk5hg7CtJd58 2AN1m7bEsoWvmSF2CUqcnPmEZQKj6CwkK2YhaZ+FpH0WkvZZSNoXMLKuYhQtTi0uzk03MtJL LcpMLi7Oz9PLSy3ZxAiMnoNbflvtYDz43PEQowAHoxIP74MdmeFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHgD jmWFC/GmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KU5mBREuf1f6kYLiSQnliSmp2aWpBaBJNl4uCUamBMuOqy mOlBaMCCmXyszVNeX/a89/BTftq1p5yLlmv731gRuiUp7vDXF9vzs1r2/V7AvmzP3kxZ9y/t 3zZLNZss3xoYm2t5s1Fp48I7KteyLasWM2XfWXJg95xdwW5J4qdb1h91rPyg2+8kOqP7dfRK Ezt79wP3UvmSZzw5cm5Hl/mPt+rHjA59V2Ipzkg01GIuKk4EAFmR8f2aAgAA Archived-At: Cc: ICE WG Subject: [Ice] draft-ietf-ice-trickle outdated reference X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:19:14 -0000 Hi, (chair hat off) The Trickle ICE draft has still an informative reference to a draft that ha= s expired long ago and will not go forward since it became part of ICE-bis: > A similar race condition would occur if the initial offer from Alice > only contains candidates that can be determined as unreachable (per > [I-D.keranen-mmusic-ice-address-selection]) from any of the > candidates that Bob has gathered.=20 While this will not hold back publication of the Trickle draft since it's o= nly informative reference in appendix, I was thinking that the reference do= es not provide much value here so if could as well be removed. If needed, s= entence or two of the issue could be copy-pasted from the draft here. Cheers, Ari= From nobody Wed Jun 22 10:33:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70D1812D98F for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:33:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ikb2ufigldPd for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E0D12D78B for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (unknown [73.34.202.214]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DD8940FC8; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:46:40 -0600 (MDT) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@tools.ietf.org" References: From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <8e9abd17-49c5-02b8-14b0-f729b7dc1b20@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:33:39 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: ICE WG Subject: Re: [Ice] draft-ietf-ice-trickle outdated reference X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:33:42 -0000 On 6/22/16 11:18 AM, Ari Keränen wrote: > Hi, (chair hat off) > > The Trickle ICE draft has still an informative reference to a draft > that has expired long ago and will not go forward since it became > part of ICE-bis: > >> A similar race condition would occur if the initial offer from >> Alice only contains candidates that can be determined as >> unreachable (per [I-D.keranen-mmusic-ice-address-selection]) from >> any of the candidates that Bob has gathered. > > While this will not hold back publication of the Trickle draft since > it's only informative reference in appendix, I was thinking that the > reference does not provide much value here so if could as well be > removed. If needed, sentence or two of the issue could be copy-pasted > from the draft here. It seems to me that we can safely remove the reference. If there is specific text in 5245bis that's relevant, we can point to that. Peter From nobody Wed Jun 22 19:43:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721B212DED8 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:43:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXhZl72nvxh4 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1144612DED7 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (unknown [73.34.202.214]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7127741694; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:56:50 -0600 (MDT) To: Christer Holmberg , Emil Ivov References: From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <93335a6b-0c57-a677-9cc1-548278347e12@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:43:48 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Justin Uberti , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Check lists and trickling X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 02:43:52 -0000 On 6/16/16 8:03 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > So, what are the corresponding 5245bis sections? :) Seems easy to determine: 5245 ===> 5245bis 2.4 2.4 5.7.4 5.1.3.4 5.8 5.1.4 7.1.3.2.3 6.1.3.2.3 I haven't checked every line of text but it does appear that the text that Emil cites here has been copied across from 5245 to 5245bis. /psa > > Regards, > > Christer > > > On 16/06/16 16:59, "Emil Ivov" wrote: > >> Hey Christer, >> >> Yes they are! >> >> Emil >> >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Christer Holmberg >> wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Just to clarify: I assume the referenced sections are in RFC 5245, >>> right? >>> Because, they don’t exist in draft-5245bis :) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> On 24/05/16 00:43, "Ice on behalf of Emil Ivov" >> behalf of emcho@jitsi.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Justin, >>>> >>>> Many apologies for missing this one! I hadn't seen it until I explicitly >>>> went to check my mailbox for updates on this thread. >>>> >>>> So, I've gone over the text again and I can see what you mean. I think >>>> however that this is a contradiction in 5245 and that it goes against >>>> the intention of the freezing algorithm so we should probably fix it in >>>> 5245bis. >>>> >>>> Specifically, I think that section 5.7.4 and later section 7... are more >>>> accurate in the description of the freezing algorithm. >>>> >>>> 5.7.4 describes the initial situation: >>>> >>>> >>>> The agent examines the check list for the first media stream. >>>> For that media stream: >>>> * For all pairs with the same foundation, it sets the >>>> state of the pair with the lowest component ID to Waiting. >>>> >>>> >>>> (note how this only unfreezes a single pair per foundation) >>>> >>>> Then in 7.1.3.2.3 as we progress and update states we have the same >>>> foundation-based reasoning. Specifically as we validate pairs we will >>>> unfreeze certain foundations (and only foundations) of other frozen >>>> checklists: >>>> >>>> >>>> 7.1.3.2.3. >>>> subpoint 1. The agent changes the states for all other Frozen pairs for >>>> the same media stream *and same foundation* to Waiting. >>>> >>>> >>>> Then once we validate an entire foundation of a given stream we will >>>> only unfreeze the same foundation (and only that foundation) of other >>>> streams: >>>> >>>> >>>> 7.1.3.2.3. >>>> subpoint 2. If there is a pair in the valid list for every component of >>>> this media stream. The agent examines the check list for each >>>> other media stream in turn : >>>> * the state of all pairs in the check list whose foundation >>>> matches a pair in the valid list under consideration is set to >>>> Waiting >>>> >>>> >>>> This also complies with the non-normative text in 2.4: >>>> >>>> >>>> The >>>> other candidate pairs are marked "frozen". When the connectivity >>>> checks for a candidate pair succeed, the other candidate pairs with >>>> *the same foundation are unfrozen*. >>>> >>>> >>>> And then: >>>> >>>> >>>> This *avoids* (Emil: not delays) repeated checking of >>>> components that are superficially more attractive but in fact are >>>> likely to fail. >>>> >>>> >>>> So, as incredibly convoluted as this all may sound I do think that it >>>> makes more sense than the generic statement in 5.8. >>>> >>>> If we were to accept the statement in 5.8 it would create race >>>> conditions that might even get candidates that should be frozen to be >>>> checked before unfrozen ones ... it would be a mess. >>>> >>>> Do you see what I mean? >>>> >>>> Emil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13.04.16 ã. 0:04, Justin Uberti wrote: >>>>> reading 5.8, the algo indicates that for an active checklist, you >>>>> check >>>>> the highest-prio pair in the waiting state, and if there is none, you >>>>> check the highest-prio frozen pair, thereby unfreezing it. This >>>>> repeats >>>>> on each timer tick. >>>>> >>>>> Basically, once a checklist is active, you will soon end up checking >>>>> all >>>>> of its pairs. What am I missing? >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Emil Ivov >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, Justin Uberti >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Emil Ivov >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey Justin, >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, 11 April 2016, Justin Uberti >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In BA, I noted that unfreezing the candidate pairs >>>>> associated with a candidate that arrives for a media >>>>> stream other than the first one will cause all of that >>>>> stream's candidate pairs to unfreeze, due to the rules >>>>> in S 5.8 >>>>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.8). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I may be missing your point but I don't think there's >>>>> anything in 5245 (5.8 or elsewhere) that ever unfreezes >>>>> all >>>>> the pairs in a checklist in one go. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's not that the checklist unfreezes all at once - it's that >>>>> once you unfreeze any pair in a checklist, the algo in 5.8 >>>>> will >>>>> necessarily unfreeze the entire checklist in short order. That >>>>> defeats the purpose of a frozen checklist (i.e., you'll end up >>>>> checking both streams in parallel). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I really don't think that's the case (and if you are saying what I >>>>> think you are saying then freezing would have been pointless even >>>>> in >>>>> vanilla ice) >>>>> >>>>> Could you please point to the specific text that's bothering you? >>>>> >>>>> The whole idea about unfreezing is that it happens along a >>>>> foundation and across lists. There are many cases where you >>>>> would unfreeze some candidates in a checklist (either because it >>>>> was >>>>> their turn or because their entire foundation got unfrozen) but >>>>> other pairs in the same check list would remain frozen till ICE >>>>> completes. >>>>> >>>>> Emil >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There's text that talks about activating a check list and >>>>> there's text that unfreezes an entire foundation actoss >>>>> all >>>>> check lists but neither of them should be an issue with >>>>> Peter's suggestion >>>>> >>>>> I do agree with the rest of the mail here ... I just don't >>>>> think any of it is a problem. >>>>> >>>>> Emil >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Someone mentioned that there was only a single check >>>>> list, which would make this a non-issue. However, I >>>>> checked and indeed each stream is supposed to have its >>>>> own check list (ignoring bundle), as described in S >>>>> 5.7 >>>>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5245#section-5.7). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Therefore, while this concern of prematurely >>>>> unfreezing >>>>> check lists isn't an issue for candidates that arrive >>>>> for a different component (since they share a check >>>>> list), I think it is an issue for candidates that >>>>> arrive >>>>> for different m= lines, and as such I'm not sure this >>>>> new unfreezing behavior is the correct solution in >>>>> these >>>>> cases. >>>>> >>>>> From nobody Wed Jun 22 19:47:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D733412DEE5 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:47:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sQ8PdreEsPTU for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3997012DEE9 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (unknown [73.34.202.214]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE2F941694; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:00:34 -0600 (MDT) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= , "ice@ietf.org" References: <56CBE148.9050100@stpeter.im> <56E383FC.6090504@stpeter.im> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF6CD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF9E2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <1F541F0A-F666-4A10-AFD7-76E6974C8291@ericsson.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <371618c7-869e-6724-37c5-dd9392dc782c@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:47:31 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1F541F0A-F666-4A10-AFD7-76E6974C8291@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Peter Thatcher , Christer Holmberg Subject: Re: [Ice] Removing ICE frozen algorithm X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 02:47:36 -0000 On 4/1/16 12:26 PM, Ari Keränen wrote: > All, > > What do you think about removing requirement for implementing frozen > algorithm altogether from ICE-bis? Hi Ari, do you mean removing the definition of the frozen algorithm, or saying that it is no longer mandatory-to-implement? Peter > > This would obviously be a bigger change than what we originally > planned for ICE-bis work, but based on the discussion so far there > could be merit to it. > > Frozen algorithm is essentially an optimisation that allows one to > not check high-priority candidate pairs that are likely not to work > (e.g., host-host candidate for more than one stream/component). If > agent has only one one stream and component, or uses RTCP-mux and > Bundles all streams, frozen algorithm is not even used today. And > current draft says you don't have to implement it for usages with > only one stream and component. However, with multiple streams and/or > components, it makes a difference. > > Apparently even if one endpoint does not implement the frozen > algorithm, it would still interoperate with one that does. The checks > would be slightly out of sync (one endpoint is doing checks for the > candidate pairs that are frozen on the other), but if we reduce the > STUN pacing value, this will be less of a problem since the NAT > bindings should be alive and the whole process is likely to end in > reasonable time. And if one cares about minimising amount of sent > checks, one could still implement the algorithm. > > What is your opinion? Should we keep or remove the frozen algorithm > requirement from ICE bis? > > > Cheers, Ari > >> On 17 Mar 2016, at 16:32, Peter Thatcher >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Christer Holmberg >> wrote: Hi, >> >>>> I was thinking that we wouldn't care if candidates share the >>>> same foundation or not - we deal with all candidates in the >>>> same way. >>> >>> For trickle ICE specifically or for 5245bis? ​ >>> >>> I'm all for simplification and removing things we don't need. I >>> just want to understand the scope of which you are proposing we >>> do so. >> >> I was thinking 5245bis: remove everything that talks about frozen >> candidates. >> >> >> Sounds good to me, if we feel like the downsides of not having >> freezing are such that we can simply say "if you care about these >> downsides, use rtcp-mux". I'd like to hear from everyone else if >> feels the same.​​ >> From nobody Wed Jun 22 20:04:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9660512DE2F for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0EkVJ1I7ibDd for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7687412DEE6 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (unknown [73.34.202.214]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 57AF441694; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:17:15 -0600 (MDT) To: Peter Thatcher , Emil Ivov References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EDB483@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EF8E18@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <56FC513A.7080100@jitsi.org> <56FC85BD.7090002@jitsi.org> <56FC9AFE.1090002@jitsi.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <8e98608f-50b5-5828-b44a-d5a57c865fd2@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:04:12 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Some thoughts on trickling the ufrag X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:04:17 -0000 On 3/31/16 11:33 AM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Emil Ivov > wrote: > > On 30.03.16 г. 21:58, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 7:04 PM, Emil Ivov > >> wrote: > > On 30.03.16 г. 18:15, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Emil Ivov > > > > > >>>wrote: > > My concern is that Trickle ICE is supposed to be > signalling > agnostic. > > The whole part with the a= lines was only meant to be a > convenience > but addressing over the wire issues are supposed to be > handled by > other specs like Trickle ICE for SIP. > > Whether or not the generation needs to be signalled > depends > entirely > on the transport. > > > ​I agree that generation doesn't need to be signalled, > but the ufrag > does, as I'll explain further down. > > SIP for example does allow for out of order > messages so it > absolutely needs it and that's why that draft says: > > All INFO requests MUST carry the "a=ice-pwd:" and > "a=ice-ufrag:" > attributes that would allow mapping them to a > specific ICE > generation. > > A WebRTC browser, when signalling candidates > through the > API does > NOT need that at all because it can guarantee that > candidates it > trickles will be mappable to an SLD/SRD round. > > > ​If there are multiple candidate gathering phases > happening at > the same > time right after an ICE restart, > > > I am not sure I understand what this means -> "multiple > candidate > gathering phases happening at the same time" > > > ​A timeline like this: > > 1. ufrag = X > 2. candidate 1 (tied to ufrag = X) > 3. restart to ufrag = Y > 4. candidate 2 (tied to ufrag = X) > 5. candidate 3 (tied to ufrag = Y) > > When you receive candidate 2, how do you know which ufrag it's > supposed > to have?​ > > This is the issue Lennox brought up in Yokohama. And since then > we have > observed it in production systems as well. Either you disallow > trickling candidate 2 or you indicate somehow that its ufrag is > X, not > Y. But you can't trickle it without indicating that it has ufrag X. > Otherwise, you'd think it was Y and be wrong. > > > I think the confusion persists. I never said you shouldn't signal > it. In fact in many cases, like SIP, you must or otherwise you get > in ambiguous situations. That's why we added this to trickle ICE for > SIP. > > > ​Now I am confused. ​ > ​ > ​ ​ > You already adde > ​d what to trickle ICE for SIP? Trickling candidate 2 or including the > ufrag (I'm guessing the former)? > > > > What I did say is that signalling is not always necessary, and I > pointed out that the WebRTC API is one case where it is not. > > > > Do you mean something like several PeerConnection-s restarting > simultaneously? Or some ICE concurrent phases that have not been > defined yet? > > the WebRTC API does need to tell the > application ​which ufrag the candidate applies to so > that the > application can signal that (via whatever signalling, > not just > SDP), so > that the remote side can know which pwd/ufrag to use when > sending STUN > messages. Either that or you say that after an ICE > restart, you > can't > gather any more candidates from the previous ufrag/pwd, > which I > don't > think is reasonable. Assuming you do allow more > candidates to be > gathered after an ICE restart, then you need to be able > to tell > if the > candidate is for the ufrag/pwd before or after the restart. > > > ICE restarts can obviously yield new candidates and they all > have a > new ufrag/pwd that a WebRTC client will learn the same way it > learned the first one: by getting the offer/answer from the > browser. > > > In other words, during an ice restart, all checks have the same > ufrag and password even if some or all the candidates are > the same > as before. > > > ​You're assuming you can only send checks to one set of > candidates at > the same time. > > > I am assuming no such thing. I think what might have led you to > believe I did is my WebRTC example in which I said the browser > didn't need to signal ufrag on a per-candidate level. And it > doesn't. It should simply signal them in the offer or answer because > they are the same for all candidates. > > > > But if ICE wasn't complete when you restarted ICE, then > you have two sets of candidates you can send checks to: the ones > from > before the restart, and the ones for after > > > You absolutely do. There is no argument here. > > This is how 5245 works and there is no reason for trickle ICE to > break that rule. In fact it strives to be backward > compatible so ... > > > ​Except that if you are sending checks to two different sets of > candidates at the same time, you need to know which set a candidate > belongs to. > > > Totally. > > So you either say 5245 disallows sending checks to more > than one set of candidates at the same time (which I don't > believe it > does, and shouldn't), or you disallow trickling candidates to the > pre-restart set of candidates (which would be suboptimal) or you > indicate which set of candidates the candidate applies to (its > ufrag). > > > I am saying neither of those two things. Could it be that you > somehow assume that a candidate can only operate with one > ufrag/password? > > That is not the case. > > After a restart, all of your candidates get a new ufrag. Including > the ones that haven't changed at all. In WebRTC that ufrag and > password get reported via the offer or answer and *all* candidates > the browser reports beyond this point will implicitly have the new > ufrag/password. > > There won't be any need to indicate ufrags. > > > ​So you're suggesting that (using my example), ​candidate 2 would accept > ICE checks from with either ufrag/pwd X or ufrag/pwd Y? Or just > ufrag/pwd Y? > > I had not considered that possibility. It goes counter to what my > understanding of "make before break" ICE restart means. My mental model > of a candidate is that it's tied to a ufrag/pwd, not that it can change > during an ICE restart. My mental model, too. > Is there text in the RFCs/drafts that clarifies > this, or are we just reading our own different meanings into ambiguous text? IMHO restarts are underspecified (certainly with respect to trickling), which is why we're having this conversation. > If this is true, what local ufrag would it use to send ICE checks on the > candidate pairs that existed before the ICE restart? Would those > suddenly change from ufrag X to ufrag Y as well? If so, when does that > happen? After sending the local offer to restart or receiving a remote > answer acknowledging the restart? I'd think it would be the latter. > In other words, this isn't just a matter of message > ordering or > signalling transport. > > In a WebRTC 1.0 API, that means putting something like > "ufrag > foo" on > the a=candidate line. In an ORTC-ish API, that means > putting a > .ufrag > on the IceCandidate object. > > So, as I said, a recommendation for extending specs and > implementors > sounds like the best path here. Normative language > sounds > like going > out of scope for this draft. > > ​ > ​I think this doc should at least say "the ufrag of the > candidate MUST > be signalled if the ufrag of the trickled candidate does > match > the ufrag > since the last ICE restart" or something along those lines.​ > > > The point is that it would never match the ufrag from before the > restart, > > > First: why not match the ufrag from before? > > > Why not? Because it creates the very problem you are trying to solve > here. > > It also makes it impossible for the receiving agent to understand > that a specific check belongs to a certain ICE session and that will > break a lot of stuff. > > Are you suggesting is > forbidden by the spec or allowed but not a good idea? > > > Yes, as per 5245, ICE restarts mean all candidates get reported > again and they *all* have the same/new ufrag and password. > > Secondly: production applications are already matching the ufrag > from > before the restart. > > > I have yet to see an application that does that. Even if we did find > one, we simply can't write specs to match buggy stuff out > there.Especially in disruptive cases like this one. If they are > reusing ufrag-s they should fix it. > > That's why Lennox brought it up, and that's what > Chrome (and any mobile app using Chrome's ICE stack) does. > That's why > we're proposing adding ufrag to the candidate: it's a simple fix > to a > production problem. > > > Wait ... what? I think I am losing you here. Are you implying that, > after an ICE restart, Chrome somehow reports the old ufrag/pwd in > the offer/answer but then uses a new one for newly discovered > candidates? > > > ​The other way around. It signals the new ufrag/pwd in offer/answer, > and then it signals the ufrag of the candidate, which may be the old > ufrag or the new, depending on if it's a candidate that applies to the > set of candidates before or after the ICE restart. I think that makes sense. How exactly does it signal the ufrag of the candidate? Let's say that before the restart it signalled 5 candidates. Does it resend all of those candidates after the restart and include the old ufrag? Peter From nobody Thu Jun 23 03:52:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC6112E29D for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81uRO-ZKtNrK for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB20712E0FF for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 03:52:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-d2-576bbf6cb66d Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.63]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 98.2E.27088.C6FBB675; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:52:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB205.ericsson.se ([169.254.5.140]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:52:27 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= To: Peter Saint-Andre Thread-Topic: [Ice] Removing ICE frozen algorithm Thread-Index: AQHRjEP7NlQlLWmqpE6zKeFyz2CXZZ/2uR2AgACHfAA= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:52:27 +0000 Message-ID: <512A41D4-2D00-404B-ACAF-CE84920A92B0@ericsson.com> References: <56CBE148.9050100@stpeter.im> <56E383FC.6090504@stpeter.im> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF6CD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF9E2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <1F541F0A-F666-4A10-AFD7-76E6974C8291@ericsson.com> <371618c7-869e-6724-37c5-dd9392dc782c@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <371618c7-869e-6724-37c5-dd9392dc782c@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5E2DC2A3B8641F499DC4122C996A1E84@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7vW7O/uxwg9UzxSy+Xai1uLb8NavF sT39zA7MHgs2lXosWfKTyWPunhfMAcxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBmTzp5kKlimUPGz/StbA+Me +S5GTg4JAROJIw07mCFsMYkL99azdTFycQgJHGGU+HT0HxOEs4RRYv+iz0wgVWwCthJPWvex gtgiAloSl671sYPYzAJ1ElOanwPZHBzCAgYSy55qQpQYSjz/tgSq3Eriyq7VYOUsAqoS0883 MoGU8wrYS3T+LYJYdZ5V4ubRW2AHcQrYScxf9QbMZgQ67vupNUwQq8Qlbj2ZzwRxtIDEkj3n oR4QlXj5+B8rhK0k0bjkCSvIfGYBTYn1u/QhWq0lDs3cxAJhK0pM6X4Idg6vgKDEyZlPWCYw is9CsmEWQvcsJN2zkHTPQtK9gJF1FaNocWpxUm66kZFealFmcnFxfp5eXmrJJkZg7B3c8ttg B+PL546HGAU4GJV4eBUuZYULsSaWFVfmHmKU4GBWEuH9sCs7XIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCj 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PiBGb3IgdHJpY2tsZSBJQ0Ugc3BlY2lmaWNhbGx5IG9yIGZvciA1MjQ1YmlzPyAg4oCLDQo+Pj4+ IA0KPj4+PiBJJ20gYWxsIGZvciBzaW1wbGlmaWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgcmVtb3ZpbmcgdGhpbmdzIHdl IGRvbid0IG5lZWQuICBJDQo+Pj4+IGp1c3Qgd2FudCB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHRoZSBzY29wZSBv ZiB3aGljaCB5b3UgYXJlIHByb3Bvc2luZyB3ZQ0KPj4+PiBkbyBzby4NCj4+PiANCj4+PiBJIHdh cyB0aGlua2luZyA1MjQ1YmlzOiByZW1vdmUgZXZlcnl0aGluZyB0aGF0IHRhbGtzIGFib3V0IGZy b3plbg0KPj4+IGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMuDQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gU291bmRzIGdvb2QgdG8gbWUs IGlmIHdlIGZlZWwgbGlrZSB0aGUgZG93bnNpZGVzIG9mIG5vdCBoYXZpbmcNCj4+PiBmcmVlemlu ZyBhcmUgc3VjaCB0aGF0IHdlIGNhbiBzaW1wbHkgc2F5ICJpZiB5b3UgY2FyZSBhYm91dCB0aGVz ZQ0KPj4+IGRvd25zaWRlcywgdXNlIHJ0Y3AtbXV4Ii4gIEknZCBsaWtlIHRvIGhlYXIgZnJvbSBl dmVyeW9uZSBlbHNlIGlmDQo+Pj4gZmVlbHMgdGhlIHNhbWUu4oCL4oCLDQo+Pj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Thu Jun 23 05:10:39 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D77912E301; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:10:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160623121038.31156.44966.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:10:38 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-04.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:10:38 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF. Title : Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal Authors : Ari Keranen Christer Holmberg Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-04.txt Pages : 94 Date : 2016-06-23 Abstract: This document describes a protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal for UDP-based multimedia. This protocol is called Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE). ICE makes use of the Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) protocol and its extension, Traversal Using Relay NAT (TURN). This document obsoletes RFC 5245. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jun 23 05:20:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D3E812D0F3 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:20:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UHYJcEkb2M52 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E13B3126D74 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:20:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79936d0000030e4-07-576bd3fe03b7 Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.48]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E5.7F.12516.EF3DB675; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:20:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.241]) by ESESSHC010.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.48]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:20:14 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-04 Thread-Index: AQHRzUmY3gv1UpVJuEWTMSgy3yO3Mg== Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:20:14 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.5.160527 x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.19] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D391AF98B72Cchristerholmbergericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdQPff5exwg0mTrSy+Xah1YPRYsuQn UwBjFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfG9y6rghe8FRe2LmRvYHzI3cXIySEhYCLxfsp1JghbTOLCvfVs XYxcHEICRxglVvXfZYJwljBKPLp2nbWLkYODTcBCovufNkiDiICixMyWZ8wgtjBQ+O2Em2wQ cVuJCUseQ9l6Eo8WTAKrYRFQlTg9uQvM5hWwkvj89A4LiM0ItPj7qTVgRzALiEvcejIf6iAB iSV7zjND2KISLx//YwWxRYFmfv86GyquKNH+tIERojdeYv+9y2wQ8wUlTs58wjKBUXgWkrGz kJTNQlIGETeQeH9uPjOErS2xbOFrKFtfYuOXs4yzgL5nFrCWWHrOHlnJAkaOVYyixanFxbnp RsZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eaklmxiB0XNwy2/dHYyrXzseYhTgYFTi4VW4lBUuxJpYVlyZe4hRgoNZ SYS3+lJ2uBBvSmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXFe/5eK4UIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQbG BQLvXv3pe/198c/J5rzzmAKdfyh1Jz7a9tNw77d3vJN6JvoFnLI/vkAi6o4DV2PT+oy/UXUP Z2w5sNR89zm/BQ9qvqbP/CnRMWP5+6jA4smrHy38zLPt4zzN9Q/zlpfL+niFWe7pvt3EpTVn 4myNNT1ti9O0y78KtDUt1EgP2VP26+L1xuBf95VYijMSDbWYi4oTAe4AfHSaAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-04 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 12:20:19 -0000 --_000_D391AF98B72Cchristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I=92ve submitted a new version (-04) of draft-5245bis. The draft now contains a reference to draft-dualstack-fairness. It also con= tains the tie-breaker clarifications, and text saying that the roles can on= ly be changed during an ICE restart in certain situations. I do not intend to submit any further versions before Berlin, so this is wh= at you need to read in order to prepare for the f2f session :) Regards, Christer --_000_D391AF98B72Cchristerholmbergericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <78C2764C5844624B92F46082094B67AF@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I=92ve submitted a new version (-04) of draft-5245bis.

The draft now contains a reference to draft-dualstack-fairness. It als= o contains the tie-breaker clarifications, and text saying that the roles c= an only be changed during an ICE restart in certain situations.

I do not intend to submit any further versions before Berlin, so this = is what you need to read in order to prepare for the f2f session :)

Regards,

Christer
--_000_D391AF98B72Cchristerholmbergericssoncom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 07:02:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260D712B074 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Q1YrO7fTph2 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22b.google.com (mail-vk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DCC212B03F for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id d185so107267866vkg.0 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nxORh3YdFXbfeM3VtbSWe/mfBUOLPcK2mDCjmxlraTE=; b=fjxh8ZPj/XDk3aN9Ae5/1rkKn9+WioiZM8dUGXtgRTi8CriOhNhyBkoEtYOLilE7kO NNbu19mc1SnNT/24A8A+F/u8Q1l4vA59MUw8/2U3RydWR6tij2rY6PhIcl353WPM2SGY JiPX3VYhtRn3u0SwENojwYmyff5UFpnGuZSA1KeTKErqWeQDG5kEcV7UJ5+qyrByCu4g B3a9/JLZof2Ln34SCKDn0NCrHcmUfUDzcRu/pcbMWAcvPt9eoS8g6zp0uYxmhsbmBG80 xOMe3pTHxdXCdTLwctY4fYRvmUO3zavXSpO0LoccDPZiLE9Y4nPQaAvkhzuJ/E51XTHJ wzYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nxORh3YdFXbfeM3VtbSWe/mfBUOLPcK2mDCjmxlraTE=; b=WH5EcTda/sTtu5f8wbZyUgyWxLamgzNur2k0Iwfs2gZTw9FGeuCWi97B4DRwqp+4hF S6RVKJfoNgtiPok4g14bmb0gRAaQ07GOgAbCZrDWtkYPcsPmitqP39mCtRxeRcj5padk nDzKRLRfR/fv9/3gA51OVG4sSk+BTC6Yw0P4IxBHNEj9kHHVlqPTaqbdy6Ac+a1jq3IX b6fOhMl149/iDE9vpNYYaVjVZxTTnQvH+uvzA25aAnMhtrR4C+XwRVqNJjGiat9S1qBO mDSJVRR2Bt75REFM9DYZPyjiBcei3mCaA0IxuVNZOoGDHJ6nMrGaym6H0RKIH4DfMt2/ E+yg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJIhn7tmhqUS0ZfJhHbplKg7JklvoTLDVHAqPfX1yo4QNtTZ7MFb2N6NW2dvytMayRUBdb8ohrXXTko+g== X-Received: by 10.31.137.68 with SMTP id l65mr16238969vkd.103.1466690529098; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.41.198 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:01:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1F541F0A-F666-4A10-AFD7-76E6974C8291@ericsson.com> References: <56CBE148.9050100@stpeter.im> <56E383FC.6090504@stpeter.im> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF6CD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF9E2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <1F541F0A-F666-4A10-AFD7-76E6974C8291@ericsson.com> From: Bernard Aboba Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:01:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11441656fb83de0535f27f2d Archived-At: Cc: Christer Holmberg , Peter Thatcher , Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Removing ICE frozen algorithm X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:02:17 -0000 --001a11441656fb83de0535f27f2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would support moving the algorithm to an Appendix and making it non-mandatory to implement. As you say, with BUNDLE/MUX becoming so widely used, it is not needed in common situations. Plus, it is possible to not implement it and still interoperate. On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote: > All, > > What do you think about removing requirement for implementing frozen > algorithm altogether from ICE-bis? > > This would obviously be a bigger change than what we originally planned > for ICE-bis work, but based on the discussion so far there could be merit > to it. > > Frozen algorithm is essentially an optimisation that allows one to not > check high-priority candidate pairs that are likely not to work (e.g., > host-host candidate for more than one stream/component). If agent has onl= y > one one stream and component, or uses RTCP-mux and Bundles all streams, > frozen algorithm is not even used today. And current draft says you don't > have to implement it for usages with only one stream and component. > However, with multiple streams and/or components, it makes a difference. > > Apparently even if one endpoint does not implement the frozen algorithm, > it would still interoperate with one that does. The checks would be > slightly out of sync (one endpoint is doing checks for the candidate pair= s > that are frozen on the other), but if we reduce the STUN pacing value, th= is > will be less of a problem since the NAT bindings should be alive and the > whole process is likely to end in reasonable time. And if one cares about > minimising amount of sent checks, one could still implement the algorithm= . > > What is your opinion? Should we keep or remove the frozen algorithm > requirement from ICE bis? > > > Cheers, > Ari > > > On 17 Mar 2016, at 16:32, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > >> I was thinking that we wouldn't care if candidates share the same > foundation or not - we deal with all candidates in the same way. > > > > > > For trickle ICE specifically or for 5245bis? =E2=80=8B > > > > > > I'm all for simplification and removing things we don't need. I just > want to understand the scope of which you are proposing we do so. > > > > I was thinking 5245bis: remove everything that talks about frozen > candidates. > > > > > > Sounds good to me, if we feel like the downsides of not having freezing > are such that we can simply say "if you care about these downsides, use > rtcp-mux". I'd like to hear from everyone else if feels the same.=E2=80= =8B=E2=80=8B > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --001a11441656fb83de0535f27f2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would support moving the algorithm to an Appendix and ma= king it non-mandatory to implement.=C2=A0 As you say, with BUNDLE/MUX becom= ing so widely used, it is not needed in common situations.=C2=A0 Plus, it i= s possible to not implement it and still interoperate. =C2=A0

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 11= :26 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> w= rote:
All,

What do you think about removing requirement for implementing frozen algori= thm altogether from ICE-bis?

This would obviously be a bigger change than what we originally planned for= ICE-bis work, but based on the discussion so far there could be merit to i= t.

Frozen algorithm is essentially an optimisation that allows one to not chec= k high-priority candidate pairs that are likely not to work (e.g., host-hos= t candidate for more than one stream/component). If agent has only one one = stream and component, or uses RTCP-mux and Bundles all streams, frozen algo= rithm is not even used today. And current draft says you don't have to = implement it for usages with only one stream and component. However, with m= ultiple streams and/or components, it makes a difference.

Apparently even if one endpoint does not implement the frozen algorithm, it= would still interoperate with one that does. The checks would be slightly = out of sync (one endpoint is doing checks for the candidate pairs that are = frozen on the other), but if we reduce the STUN pacing value, this will be = less of a problem since the NAT bindings should be alive and the whole proc= ess is likely to end in reasonable time. And if one cares about minimising = amount of sent checks, one could still implement the algorithm.

What is your opinion? Should we keep or remove the frozen algorithm require= ment from ICE bis?


Cheers,
Ari

> On 17 Mar 2016, at 16:32, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> = wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >> I was thinking that we wouldn't care if candidates share = the same foundation or not - we deal with all candidates in the same way. > >
> > For trickle ICE specifically or for 5245bis?=C2=A0 =E2=80=8B
> >
> > I'm all for simplification and removing things we don't n= eed.=C2=A0 I just want to understand the scope of which you are proposing w= e do so.
>
> I was thinking 5245bis: remove everything that talks about frozen cand= idates.
>
>
> Sounds good to me, if we feel like the downsides of not having freezin= g are such that we can simply say "if you care about these downsides, = use rtcp-mux".=C2=A0 I'd like to hear from everyone else if feels = the same.=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
>
>

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--001a11441656fb83de0535f27f2d-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 17:49:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B3A12D16F for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 17:49:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePpZ6t_60HxD for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 17:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCF0712D0C0 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 17:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id u5O0nTHN031159 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:49:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.4] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:49:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20160610115302.15435.33439.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7EF56049-A57F-4009-B470-7F1B9B0C5022@nostrum.com> <0292C38D-7869-4635-8B24-0A1E97C679C3@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.4r5234) Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 00:49:35 -0000 I requested IETF last call. Thanks! Ben. On 20 Jun 2016, at 9:45, Ben Campbell wrote: > On 20 Jun 2016, at 8:04, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > >>> On 18 Jun 2016, at 00:31, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> In your opinion, is this version ready to move to IETF last call? Or >>> do >>> you plan other updates. >>> >> No plans for updating the dualstack-fairness draft. Probably some >> nits remaining in 5245bis to properly reference and clean up >> surrounding text. >> >> If something significant changes in rfc 5245bis the dualstack >> fairness draft might need to be updated. > > With the normative reference, this won't be published until 5245bis is > published. We can progress this draft now and let it wait in the RFC > editors queue, where we could make a last minute change if necessary. > Or we could hold this draft back in the working group and progress > them together. > > I favor the former. Does anyone think otherwise? > >> >>> I note that section 5, paragraph 3 has one remaining upper-case >>> MUST. We >>> can deal with that after IETF last call (but don't be surprised if >>> people comment on it.) >>> >> That MUST is part of a quote from rfc5245bis section 4.1.2. (Actually >> it should be section 4.1.2.1 to be more precise, can submit a new >> version to fix that, but waiting to see if any more changes are >> necessary if ICEBis changes.) >> >> So hopefully it is ok to quote text from another RFC containing >> uppercase MUST without needing to have the standard MUST, SHOULD etc >> boilerplate? > > Ah, on closer inspection the quote is fine as is. > >> >> .-. >> PÃ¥l-Erik >> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Ben. >>> >>> On 10 Jun 2016, at 7:07, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> This version tries to address issues during IESG review. >>>> >>>> - Changed Intended Status to Best Current Practices >>>> - All references are now to ICEbis not ICE. >>>> - Changes to reflect proposed new text in ICEbis >>>> - Both ICEbis and this draft cross reference each other. >>>> >>>> Proposed changes to ICEbis >>>> >>>> Section 4.1.2.1 >>>> >>>> Old text: >>>> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local >>>> preference >>>> SHOULD be set equal to the precedence value for IP addresses >>>> described >>>> in RFC 6724 [RFC6724]. If the host operating system provides an API >>>> for discovering preference among different addresses, those >>>> preferences SHOULD be used for the local preference to prioritize >>>> addresses indicated as preferred by the operating system. >>>> >>>> New text: >>>> If a host is multihomed because it is dual-stack, the local >>>> preference >>>> should be set acording to the current best practice described in >>>> RFC XXXX [ice-dualstack-fairness]. >>>> >>>> Open Issues: >>>> - No capital SHOULD when referring to a BCP? >>>> - Fairness draft updated to mention RFC6724 so we can avoid >>>> referring >>>> it >>>> in ICEbis? >>>> - Make ICEbis as simple as possible and let people read the >>>> fairness >>>> BCP for details? At least avoid having the same information in both >>>> RFCs. >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 4.1.2.2 >>>> >>>> New text: >>>> One criterion for selection of the type and local preference values >>>> is >>>> the use of a media intermediary, such as a TURN server, a tunnel >>>> service such as VPN server, or NAT. With a media intermediary, if >>>> media is sent to that candidate, it will first transit the media >>>> intermediary before being received. Relayed candidates are one >>>> type >>>> of candidate that involves a media intermediary. Another are host >>>> candidates obtained from a VPN interface. When media is transited >>>> through a media intermediary, it can increase the latency between >>>> transmission and reception. It may or may not increase the packet >>>> losses, because of the additional router hops that may be taken. >>>> It >>>> may increase the cost of providing service, since media will be >>>> routed >>>> in and right back out of a media intermediary run by a provider. >>>> If >>>> these concerns are important, the type preference for relayed >>>> candidates SHOULD be lower than host candidates. The RECOMMENDED >>>> values are 126 for host candidates, 100 for server reflexive >>>> candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed >>>> candidates. >>>> >>>> Furthermore, if an agent is multihomed and has multiple IP >>>> addresses, >>>> the recomandation in RFCXXXX [dual-stack fairnes] should be >>>> followed. >>>> If multiple TURN servers are used, local priorities for the >>>> candidates >>>> obtained from the TURN servers are chosen in a similar fashion as >>>> for >>>> multihomed local candidates: the local preference value is used to >>>> indicate preference among different servers but the preference MUST >>>> be >>>> unique for each one. >>>> >>>> Another criterion for selection of preferences is IP address >>>> family. >>>> ICE works with both IPv4 and IPv6. It therefore provides a >>>> transition >>>> mechanism that allows dual-stack hosts to prefer connectivity over >>>> IPv6, but to fall back to IPv4 in case the v6 networks are >>>> disconnected. Implementation should follow the gudlines from RFCXXX >>>> [dualstack-fairnes] to avoid ecessive dealys in the connectivity >>>> check >>>> phase if broken paths exists. >>>> >>>> Another criterion for selecting preferences might be security or >>>> privacy. If a user is a telecommuter, and therefore connected to a >>>> corporate network and a local home network, the user may prefer >>>> their >>>> voice traffic to be routed over the VPN or similar tunnel in order >>>> to >>>> keep it on the corporate network when communicating within the >>>> enterprise, but use the local network when communicating with users >>>> outside of the enterprise. In such a case, a VPN address would >>>> have a >>>> higher local preference than any other address. >>>> >>>> Open Issues: >>>> - Relaxing language that indicates bad bad things happen if a relay >>>> is >>>> involved. >>>> - Removed Text regarding 6to4. Anyone using it?(NAT64 and DNS64 is >>>> the >>>> - way to go?) Can add text to the >>>> fairness draft to simplify ICEbis. 6to4 is a tunnel and the >>>> fairness >>>> draft talks about tunnels. (None mentioned for the far of calling >>>> out the bad ones..) >>>> - Added privacy to as a VPN example as well. >>>> - I feel more text is needed if we want to keep the VPN text there. >>>> We >>>> need to explain split tunneling and how that migh or might not be >>>> available. Some wording regarding IP adreess leakege would also be >>>> beneficial. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> .-. >>>> PÃ¥l-Erik >>>> >>>>> On 10 Jun 2016, at 13:53, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>>> directories. >>>>> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity >>>>> Establishment of the IETF. >>>>> >>>>> Title : ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack >>>>> Fairness >>>>> Authors : Paal-Erik Martinsen >>>>> Tirumaleswar Reddy >>>>> Prashanth Patil >>>>> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03.txt >>>>> Pages : 10 >>>>> Date : 2016-06-10 >>>>> >>>>> Abstract: >>>>> This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive >>>>> Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed >>>>> and >>>>> IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The >>>>> provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original >>>>> ICE >>>>> specification. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ >>>>> >>>>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>>>> >>>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness-03 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>>> submission >>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at >>>>> tools.ietf.org. >>>>> >>>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Ice mailing list >>>>> Ice@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ice mailing list >>>> Ice@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Fri Jun 24 07:00:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CF212DB1A for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:00:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dA6hAJDItL4Y for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBBDD12DB29 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79f26d00000327e-20-576d3cf1e3bd Received: from ESESSHC017.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.69]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 27.36.12926.1FC3D675; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:00:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.241]) by ESESSHC017.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.69]) with mapi id 14.03.0294.000; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:00:17 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Bernard Aboba , =?utf-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= Thread-Topic: [Ice] Removing ICE frozen algorithm Thread-Index: AQHRjEP7AhNDcrcC7EegNJyYwRJxK5/3dYOAgAGy2pA= Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 14:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38107DF4@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <56CBE148.9050100@stpeter.im> <56E383FC.6090504@stpeter.im> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF6CD@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37EBF9E2@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <1F541F0A-F666-4A10-AFD7-76E6974C8291@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38107DF4ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrPIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7q+4nm9xwgyftnBYb9v1ntvh2odbi 2vLXrBbH9vQzO7B47Jx1l91jwaZSjyVLfjJ5zN3zgjmAJYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr49bMTywF 38orppz9w9zAeKOki5GDQ0LARGLZRqsuRk4gU0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcYJQ53LWGEcJYwSlyc uIcFpIFNwEKi+582SIOIQJrEw6ZfbCA2s0CRRN+pXcwgtrCAgcTCC29ZIWoMJZ5/WwJlW0k8 W/WJCWQMi4CqxO+ZMSBhXgFfiQurWsBahQQesUo8mWsCYnMKBEqc3DGJHcRmBLrt+6k1TBCr 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CjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B38107DF4ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Fri Jun 24 07:41:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541C212D0DC; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Sender: Message-ID: <20160624144149.10812.98044.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 07:41:49 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org, ben@nostrum.com, Ari Keranen , draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness@ietf.org, ice-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] Last Call: (ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack Fairness) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 14:41:49 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG (ice) to consider the following document: - 'ICE Multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 Dual Stack Fairness' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2016-07-08. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document provides guidelines on how to make Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) conclude faster in multihomed and IPv4/IPv6 dual-stack scenarios where broken paths exist. The provided guidelines are backwards compatible with the original ICE specification. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Fri Jun 24 09:10:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C37412DCC2; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:01:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160624160103.10933.32016.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:01:03 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ben@nostrum.com, ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] ice - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 96 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:01:03 -0000 Dear Peter Thatcher, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. ice Session 1 (2:30:00) Thursday, Morning Session I 1000-1230 Room Name: Schoeneberg size: 100 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Interactive Connectivity Establishment Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Peter Thatcher Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 45 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: payload core rtcweb avtext avtcore t2trg tls tsvarea tsvwg tram mmusic dispatch Second Priority: netvc rmcat httpbis perc Third Priority: ace 6lo lwig clue xrblock sipcore Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jun 27 11:45:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD0B12D78A for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CAg4Ek7l9yU0 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 335E212D76F for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id t127so220486465qkf.1 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ep+xdGqZU8TLVo/PpmmODiAVzglVrn7W+YIT0QsI7+o=; b=k8MNvgUwrC6RHWNA0psbaC8P1K3n8vE+l+Of9VKThjB4kh7hfm7xaPEeIBsAejxT0N HvjX0IcWqe/tebexpvE4PSNLXt/w258vforbH7/8DPpzAhHmoHw3KucuTaqnbkM3u2MF frrYpGCoQSGxngpDQ2OxO2oDlDjZYgswyJR/nGw/M9Z6mhCtLWRSZq183MKDrMaNPi8U Uhxef4hrFjJXiJjv39NkVkFOObDnibmBv2A8rQxnyTJtGDVfXKlSEFHllEqgfU7Sgtzz DDMK/PGYQPEiYFnEPRVLpOjA5oxFLep7I+hXLidKL1buJGInC1dVMS6WaaoYpQzMAW2H ELhQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ep+xdGqZU8TLVo/PpmmODiAVzglVrn7W+YIT0QsI7+o=; b=GgeOHZoN0tlKLQIUOzhpWIoMXiIdhB55dZJ307PLXTf7c6B5MkAA3HTWjumff8hM1F YbVWIqglEyDMwWmnP40cAiREqoNiQz2+fjgkN2NPvxgyWRzGizprvHxayf0zRG7C5bC/ WBE5HR66Ae0aLNa2npMCgosTeXsWFOpYFxIozr+xyeZUY5PTSqeF3+u+YVqdKrIP4S07 3e19IMTqBaqbqI6NMaem/lRg9bXxJ9ANPmNaUf06u6HtHCi5iCgpENVUQGhpGPuykxQs /t12i1p0VTmztjbGMC9Dpyaf1l0OxxqsIJ+leDl1iDPVTAzN5r3+u13BF+FhePPxDesP T9YQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJYUG0lTlawakrPFwJJLk/f9gL0YCFRI7fNKgDXk9DaAsSe7c8WBBw7qAFK4Os7LM9/R2wANfm1CH34f/DE X-Received: by 10.129.70.194 with SMTP id t185mr4118118ywa.34.1467053130096; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.233.194 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 11:45:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e8758b01283053646ec2b Archived-At: Cc: jonathan@vidyo.com Subject: [Ice] Issue with candidate deduplication rule X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:45:33 -0000 --001a114e8758b01283053646ec2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the higher priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates. It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply because a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive while the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nomination. So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. --001a114e8758b01283053646ec2b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate = with the higher priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: https://github.com/ice-wg/t= rickle/issues/6).=C2=A0However, I see a potential issue with this, spec= ifically regarding peer reflexive candidates.

It's p= ossible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply because = a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. Then, acc= ording to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be replaced by = the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer ref= lexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority.

As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair = differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive whil= e the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have = different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which coul= d result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric select= ion if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive n= omination.

So, I suggest a minor modification to t= he rule: peer reflexive candidates are always replaced by other types of ca= ndidates, regardless of priority.
--001a114e8758b01283053646ec2b-- From nobody Mon Jun 27 12:35:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A59D12D7B4 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:35:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LXu-dzyji_Ko for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96EBB12D0B2 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id t127so222977996qkf.1 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R+839x3R9tbyMVIvBMZagljDSU0xjpDNqb3fpkWv6OE=; b=oCXvldOhqmPGPro51kOnk+4/BCoQNVcMBTiUcocBLSJePTSr6dRTrYmLMWbowzTP8e mT44ulwk0bFNIEOCgk+SYeFGywQLnmtSmAQSBDXvNwMfmz7FBSdbs7hsv+yc2q3CdySb X+R2+UpM/ENkHssUhZpRpSQsie8qo1CWRjUK0kiAVW7WRlEZ/3QUSpmNGsf6qHEuTxbE ritElXEC9hpbMpqzSpslURspbNw2ugfRAjwQGNvihJkv+zMXXLAY5Q817WUSj2fj43Zk iRv7exmmsWgXcAH8bow2HdFR+ZXeMJsbnGyZiTJIHcu9bMCnva+vIyrbsBcCXAC2VXcK SPzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R+839x3R9tbyMVIvBMZagljDSU0xjpDNqb3fpkWv6OE=; b=AX/RfntYx91k23mAJRhDjvUTm5EuLDJrf91vndnRvlkvUjunNKnDjY/2Aera249Q6j MhHXbpDGxjSGow1pWb47nkqR5N37NKB3NGtri+ZHgMrwu2lWIuHIEblXKqaaMzZRIbB2 ruGLtfkFi5eq7xcFrOgSIyRNAdfO7uesGRtQSfvKWQWmrZW4QzhWZbKQDyHcgNt3fFpL DObSCuZmKqDyoaMXZDcT27Go4tyUQgL/cM/g2tr8iM3f1HM39rHQbG71w+Ca0A7kIZ7+ c8d/GGiYL0Y+m7WJJcOdyOiiCb6KZEpkx/uV2PrEo9jiQe0ZxpfifIyK9CJHg/m+aT38 w1eQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tICaiekgbceaNx8QppA/3Tt4yhXKslSAMx5by5ok/GrxvrV9wu8/RSSXyjFV3Pb/gnjxewVm1b3j/kxQ7bs X-Received: by 10.233.239.87 with SMTP id d84mr4426034qkg.68.1467056131591; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:35:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.140.198 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:34:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <14d29af6-91f1-e782-c64c-9dfc29e5676c@nostrum.com> References: <14d29af6-91f1-e782-c64c-9dfc29e5676c@nostrum.com> From: Peter Thatcher Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:34:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b821a97255a0536479ff3 Archived-At: Cc: Ross Finlayson , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] draft-thatcher-ice-network-cost (was Re: STUN attribute 0xC057 - What is this?) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:35:36 -0000 --94eb2c0b821a97255a0536479ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 6/9/16 8:15 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote: > >> (Apologies in advance for the slightly off-topic question) >> >> I=E2=80=99ve found that my STUN server (in my WebRTC server implementati= on) often >> receives STUN Binding Requests that contain an unknown attribute type >> 0xC057. This attribute is always 4-bytes long, with each of the four by= tes >> being zero. >> >> This unknown attribute is sent by Chrome (and Opera) browsers, but >> apparently never by Firefox. >> >> According to RFC 5389 (and IANA), STUN attribute 0xC057 is unassigned, >> but is in the 'Designated Expert=E2=80=99 Comprehension-Optional range. >> >> Does anyone know what this is? >> > > Yep, it's part of the webrtc.org code: > > > https://chromium.googlesource.com/external/webrtc/+/6ab3db249b075e0e820a2= 63d54804f521e7bc24b/webrtc/p2p/base/stun.h#611 > > It appears to have been introduced here: > > https://codereview.webrtc.org/1815473002 =E2=80=8B > > And it seems to be described, at least at a high level, here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thatcher-ice-network-cost-00 > > =E2=80=8B Yes, that's what it is. =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B It's our implementation of the draft whereby an ICE endpoint can indicate how much it thinks a network interface will cost to use (wifi vs cell, for example).=E2=80=8B > Maybe Peter will explain his draft further? I would suggest that the IANA > section, at least, is incorrect. > > =E2=80=8BI don't know what to say other than read the draft. It's quite sh= ort. I will hopefully be presenting about it at IETF 96. You are correct that I should update the IANA section of the draft to indicate we'll need to register a STUN attribute (instead of the temporary 0xC057). > /a > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --94eb2c0b821a97255a0536479ff3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Adam Roach &= lt;adam@nostrum.com> wrot= e:
On 6/9/16 8:15 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
(Apologies in advance for the slightly off-topic question)

I=E2=80=99ve found that my STUN server (in my WebRTC server implementation)= often receives STUN Binding Requests that contain an unknown attribute typ= e 0xC057.=C2=A0 This attribute is always 4-bytes long, with each of the fou= r bytes being zero.

This unknown attribute is sent by Chrome (and Opera) browsers, but apparent= ly never by Firefox.

According to RFC 5389 (and IANA), STUN attribute 0xC057 is unassigned, but = is in the 'Designated Expert=E2=80=99 Comprehension-Optional range.

Does anyone know what this is?

Yep, it's part of the = webrtc.org code:

https://chromium.googlesource.com/external/webrtc/+/6ab3db249b075e0e820a26= 3d54804f521e7bc24b/webrtc/p2p/base/stun.h#611

It appears to have been introduced here:

htt= ps://codereview.webrtc.org/1815473002
=E2=80=8B

And it seems to be described, at least at a high level, here:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thatcher-ice-network-c= ost-00

=E2=80=8B
Yes, that's what it is. =C2=A0=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B= =C2=A0It's our implementation of the draft whereby an ICE endpoint can= indicate how much it thinks a network interface will cost to use (wifi vs = cell, for example).=E2=80=8B


=C2=A0
Maybe Peter will explain his draft further? I would suggest that the IANA s= ection, at least, is incorrect.


=E2=80=8BI don't know what to s= ay other than read the draft.=C2=A0 It's quite short.=C2=A0 I will hope= fully be presenting about it at IETF 96. =C2=A0

You ar= e correct that I should update the IANA section of the draft to indicate we= 'll need to register a STUN attribute (instead of the temporary 0xC057)= . =C2=A0

=C2=A0
/a

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

--94eb2c0b821a97255a0536479ff3-- From nobody Mon Jun 27 12:48:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4D012B044 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.83 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.83 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-J5lHJN2_ss for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32BCB12D7D1 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0073110.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id u5RJjaG9022492; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 15:48:15 -0400 Received: from mail.vidyo.com ([162.209.16.214]) by mx0b-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 23kfmh7sv7-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Jun 2016 15:48:15 -0400 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:48:13 -0500 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Taylor Brandstetter Thread-Topic: Issue with candidate deduplication rule Thread-Index: AQHR0KQVH55f8jEv6k+A6QUy4MwItZ/+DDeA Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:48:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D219746C8F19464F9B036855B1D8D93Avidyocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.15.96, 1.0.3, 0.0.0000 definitions=2016-06-27_13:2016-06-27,2016-06-27,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1603290000 definitions=main-1606270199 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issue with candidate deduplication rule X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:48:20 -0000 --_000_D219746C8F19464F9B036855B1D8D93Avidyocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter > wrote: At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the higher p= riority if duplicate candidates are received (see: https://github.com/ice-w= g/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential issue with this, specifical= ly regarding peer reflexive candidates. It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply be= cause a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. The= n, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be replac= ed by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer r= eflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair differen= tly, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive while the ot= her sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have differen= t ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result= in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection if t= he controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nominatio= n. So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates a= re always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. This makes sense to me. --_000_D219746C8F19464F9B036855B1D8D93Avidyocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com> wro= te:

At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the= candidate with the higher priority if duplicate candidates are received (s= ee: https://g= ithub.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential iss= ue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates.

It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be c= reated simply because a binding request was received before the candidate w= as signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate wou= ld not be replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is guar= anteed to have a higher priority.

As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candida= te pair differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflex= ive while the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints cou= ld have different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result in sub-optimal selection = of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection if the controlling agent is an= RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nomination.

So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflex= ive candidates are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless= of priority.

This makes sense to me.
--_000_D219746C8F19464F9B036855B1D8D93Avidyocom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 27 18:28:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D58B12DAD1 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MdB26Im6_xWa for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5843412DAD8 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id p10so3773523qke.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:28:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7Z42BoVeOIgmzKrugxnMjFt0c8QhIuIOdKqF0k4blDo=; b=C/H57k287CobN3idMub5G9zAAL4ZcMonFK9RSZvYANVW/BfWfYx9cKstZvvjGXf4tf vV72y8i883GKQdNQJA/76XtPhm7RhvYewY/eN85z//VJ3kZxyX9BOoF0aBpmOdFQUVOX chGrB9MQtLJRogPY8rtyjmqw3+8S37165PsH6DKS8GqksOOPsuqfqzwBTrEx/htSFhk9 RigoboiksPAL6sQjGcyCyTs17lWGhZpMozEH8/d+N7gkdrYBxaXZ//EApbjr2V9oC82g 9zTE4rPX1Vjm6CsdPdo0/PmOBYWTANK5sV5kpdC1iXzCeg7PGwpxSE3p3UJDTjoUoIEh /NyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7Z42BoVeOIgmzKrugxnMjFt0c8QhIuIOdKqF0k4blDo=; b=ZhpLoR3Scw0/7w9kMyxHlPf3oc7IBjV16MSkgbifS+yBPKpmrHrqNV20HMOBmuRBYr C/7v3nGAQDjsmbIp52RzlIfaXiAYx+eo+aarzEma+UOqhtQQ4w8NPSWRGz9exYrNCopA Nh/cK3eod9CluuxdEkFvM31vLQkzdNHHTwEcXVOVg+76Z1pLMksX//6WCPVi8dK8kkpz 4wAd7x/qxKkB66ctqqdrlXz6aY7vqb4pBn7Rco/E3OjwH8Btc6Y6Wn5utYcqK0PaaCQN TcJvlEUzHf5gZ8701QsxNl2j1l25umGurO9OvQxhmonE25wgayMrGr+OEiC1ndB1mbZ2 ygSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJj6A2DDtieF8hmzdiOEreKerhTAZcERyS2vqCEba02peWCMcGvFpzmzhsCuOVCi9PPmz/S/n0xNlonMefk X-Received: by 10.233.221.130 with SMTP id r124mr474477qkf.19.1467077318420; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:28:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.55.140.198 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 18:27:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Lennox Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0438986c72bf05364c8ec4 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , Taylor Brandstetter Subject: Re: [Ice] Issue with candidate deduplication rule X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 01:28:42 -0000 --94eb2c0438986c72bf05364c8ec4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think Taylor is correct, and I think that small change should fix it. I suggest we update the doc to represent this change and then bring it up in Berlin. On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Jonathan Lennox wrote: > > On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter > wrote: > > At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the higher > priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: > https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential > issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates. > > It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply > because a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. > Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be > replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the > peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. > > As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair > differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive > while the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could > have different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which > could result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric > selection if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses > aggressive nomination. > > So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates > are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. > > > This makes sense to me. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --94eb2c0438986c72bf05364c8ec4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think Taylor is correct, and I think that small chang= e should fix it.=C2=A0 I suggest we update the doc to represent this change= and then bring it up in Berlin.

=
On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Jonathan Lenno= x <jonathan@vidyo.com> wrote:

On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com> wrote:<= /div>
At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate = with the higher priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: ht= tps://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6).=C2=A0However, I see a potent= ial issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates.

It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created = simply because a binding request was received before the candidate was sign= aled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not = be replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is = guaranteed to have a higher priority.

As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair dif= ferently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive while t= he other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have dif= ferent ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result in sub-optimal selection = of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection if the controlling agent is an= RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nomination.

So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candida= tes are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priorit= y.

This makes sense to me.

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


--94eb2c0438986c72bf05364c8ec4-- From nobody Mon Jun 27 19:59:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291B212D567 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WNK6moZNg0X6 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9602212DADC for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id p10so6434721qke.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9xr3QTmg2vBOAm9Iqv5gVzpyHuYq/2J0Hll6ooirMNY=; b=lRtfYXWwpZ0Z8QVMWv+UyvqnvlmSssTfrYif5wXH2lfdRM/B6vUJ6UYU02JIAOJsMB ZF6suNk8Jqf2gfMCRpnGJydIsbvwIgBH+myk8/UmdBv8xuJHsX6sHf7rVJWOffvypdxF BHQZzZ9P28Y5cA5gkrYq/FHr0rCI4rOIhhqv7QxDhj5jixRgzWP9XAsrw7Z48EHlNhvy 3Yqn0AaniB6mSz4Fv+dnJ5HcPMCqPW57Yqo5/RpvOISoCECVGrLm2f+8UOxqs6mk2wXr gFkTM3oONPBpBTUHk8aH21Pqmo1Pru1fWFvUvlsmDhSO/ID/WqoXf/PxkJQQGT1z+XFH zGqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9xr3QTmg2vBOAm9Iqv5gVzpyHuYq/2J0Hll6ooirMNY=; b=PhS8oDNKGyP1SrJIEf0uMUjiOYvYOHbVp98GIlcovOcnqELaBo+MwM/lajHJGK8cxf NaKOE5IS5Fran1dYdP6BT8iVTzDyQqVSIKXHhasG6nhyyDGmJqM1GFuUr54AmCYF/2No i7TxhVSNXx+qVFbZP5ZsFWXYV7rW40zB3Lb23X1yQLi+yxVx4iznInZ/fUy3Imt04DSo 4aU/RM1qhq4drp0mNbihHyoiopuS3PLl3KYZ7Lsy7yZEpdz3luNCuFrq8UEmT10RDLTp 9TMNJel1iZ/Sx3S2d4lEIYcx6nmYtk70q/NF2WaTGL+92glGZWSXHNDYx8V3BbIMHQA1 i0KA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKLGhLMlDhuJ1PIEC/DyBfd02/rmjQvCgvtOJSLzAOy42rEBCN55QqN2Yd0oukTvQ== X-Received: by 10.55.175.134 with SMTP id y128mr961004qke.67.1467082734594; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-f172.google.com (mail-qk0-f172.google.com. [209.85.220.172]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e41sm819433qta.37.2016.06.27.19.58.54 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-f172.google.com with SMTP id p10so6434309qke.3 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.37.230.65 with SMTP id d62mr143937ybh.111.1467082733982; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.83.35.205 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 19:58:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Emil Ivov Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 21:58:34 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Peter Thatcher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Jonathan Lennox , Taylor Brandstetter , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issue with candidate deduplication rule X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 02:59:02 -0000 That's a pretty good catch! (Darned aggressive nomination!!!) I wonder if the fix-rule should mention PR candidates at all though. Are there cases where the priority should not be overwritten? Emil On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > I think Taylor is correct, and I think that small change should fix it. I > suggest we update the doc to represent this change and then bring it up in > Berlin. > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Jonathan Lennox > wrote: >> >> >> On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter >> wrote: >> >> At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the higher >> priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: >> https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential >> issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates. >> >> It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply >> because a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. >> Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be >> replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the >> peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. >> >> As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair >> differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive while >> the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have >> different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which could >> result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection >> if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive >> nomination. >> >> So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates >> are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. >> >> >> This makes sense to me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > -- https://jitsi.org From nobody Tue Jun 28 06:20:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50EA12B054; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 06:20:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TrMgxFX-4MnU; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 06:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDA6112DBF6; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 06:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79486d0000069d0-25-577275edbd1e Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.30]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EA.22.27088.DE572775; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:04:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.294.0; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:04:44 +0200 To: IETF AVTCore WG , "tram@ietf.org" , , "tls@ietf.org" , "mmusic (E-mail)" , "draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes@ietf.org" From: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:04:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7nO7b0qJwg/55ghYve1ayWxz4OJXZ 4tuFWoupyx+zWHw638Vo8WHtBTYHNo8lS34yBTBGcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGXMWPSEreA4V8Wt 3dINjKc5uhg5OSQETCSOtX1gh7DFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwhFHi2LFGVghnOaPEh197GEEcEYF/ jBIfN95kAWlhE7CQuPmjkQ3EFhZwlTj89jojiM0rYC/RvnILmM0ioCqxfspVsBWiAjESjbcP s0PUCEqcnPkEaA4HBzNQ/YOtZSBhZgF5ieats5lBbCEBbYmGpg7WCYx8s5B0zELomIWkYwEj 8ypG0eLU4qTcdCMjvdSizOTi4vw8vbzUkk2MwAA8uOW3wQ7Gl88dDzEKcDAq8fA+WFgYLsSa WFZcmXuIUYKDWUmEd2NxUbgQb0piZVVqUX58UWlOavEhRmkOFiVxXv+XiuFCAumJJanZqakF qUUwWSYOTqkGxjXpU/u8j22docrEXHgla4/f1bANt81yhb2iAr4rZbps3Pb4qMmluVEKUtPt Wc64OO+60LN8zfPGiV6Hfh/bVfZdUfDp1+A/fI6Tjf53zpKpnutiuWIeozgz/0/NoNVTI4Me uT1OCGx+GndKWJdhygfH7/NF+R4539xhu96P2+tx37/auXGLViixFGckGmoxFxUnAgCr17fD PAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Confirmation call on draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes-09 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:20:09 -0000 WGs, I as WG chair earlier made a mistake in failing to include the relevant WGs in our previous WG last call. Thus I would like to make a one week confirmation call on the content of draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes-09 prior to publication request. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes/ TRAM WG: Please check that you are okay with the restrictions and updates to the TURN channel allocations as well as STUN Method restrictions. TLS WG: I believe you are satisfied with the impact on the TLS IANA registry after previous discussions, but you are welcome to confirm this. ICE: For your information as this impacts protocol mechanism your are dependent on. MMUSIC: For your information due to some notes in regards to BUNDLE and RFC7345. Please provide any feedback by 5th of July. cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jun 28 07:35:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240B912D1A6; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:35:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IC2OEfy-XCii; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01E4D12D1B9; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 07:35:08 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79386d00000467b-73-57728b1a87e4 Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.33]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E9.6B.18043.A1B82775; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 16:35:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.294.0; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 16:35:06 +0200 To: IETF AVTCore WG , "tram@ietf.org" , , "tls@ietf.org" , "mmusic (E-mail)" , "draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes@ietf.org" References: From: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <10a73efe-2e50-77ed-e78f-298d388efb47@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 16:35:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7oq5Ud1G4waPthhYve1ayWxz4OJXZ 4tuFWoupyx+zWHw638Vo8WHtBTYHNo8lS34yBTBGcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGVsWbuTveCdRMWK td2MDYwPhLsYOTkkBEwkPszYzgphi0lcuLeeDcQWEjjCKPFpXX0XIxeQvZxR4s3VtcxdjBwc wgIhEsf3J4HERQT+MUp83HiTBaLBXuLXzkZmEJtNwELi5o9GsEG8QPETb74zgvSyCKhK3Pge CxIWFYiRaLx9mB2iRFDi5MwnYGM4BRwkjv/cwAJSzgzU+mBrGUiYWUBeonnrbGaITdoSDU0d rBMYBWYh6Z6F0DELSccCRuZVjKLFqcXFuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWbGIHBenDLb6sdjAef Ox5iFOBgVOLhfbCwMFyINbGsuDL3EKMEB7OSCK9nV1G4EG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYl cV7/l4rhQgLpiSWp2ampBalFMFkmDk6pBsYIVu65q/fbrOl8Y5aWzliVlNs27diE1suTYqw5 n0zP+im5f/U6tSjjCPZzWrNSDLYF9R32nda0ojqsYNvfCbN5VxQd31Gqlm7WYG948ZHo2Udz X4gcVwpbn+A7u+Lk829sTheLGT7ZRgTn6qUxfVrtEsq9um6Ly13Vd49EpxtmOXi5HGqY7q/E UpyRaKjFXFScCADk8d++UgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Confirmation call on draft-ietf-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes-09 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:35:12 -0000 Authors and WGs, In my review for the publication writeup I did spot some issues in the draft. Please consider the following issues: 1. Abstract: With the addition of the ZRTP the abstract should benefit from being updated. The ZRTP protocol being possible to multiplex is missing as well as that there are now 4 issues. 2. Abstract contains [ref] to RFC 5764. This is an ID nit. 3. Section 1. The introduction is not explicitly saying that it updates RFC 5764. I think that can be put as a sentence after: This is achieved by modifying the IANA registries with instructions for coordination between the protocols at risk. 4. Reference ID-nits: == Outdated reference: A later version (-31) exists of draft-ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation-23 5. Section 2: ID-nits complains about the modified boilerplate for the RFC2119 text. First of all one usually don't cut down the list to only the used ones. The requirement on all caps ones I am very divided about. I do have a preference for unmodified boilerplate, this as I otherwise have to explain in the write-up the ID-nit. 6. Section 6: In order to prevent future documents from assigning values from the unused range to a new protocol, this document modifies the RFC 5764 demultiplexing algorithm to properly account for TURN channels by allocating the values from 64 to 79 for this purpose. I think this text fails to be explicit about that this restricts the TURN Channel space to a more limited set of possible channels when the TURN client does the channel binding request. Thus affecting the TURN channel allocation algorithm in the client implementations, at least when used in combination of muxing. Based on this and the fact that this specification changes the IANA registrations performed by RFC5766, I think this document to have "Updates" for RFC5766 also. So please add that in header, abstract and introduction. 7. Updates RFC5389: Looking at the impact also on the STUN protocol I would also think that this requires and "Updates" also for RFC 5389. 8. Section 10.3: The IANA registry name is not the correct one. The IANA page says that the registry name is: Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) Channel Numbers http://www.iana.org/assignments/stun-parameters/stun-parameters.xhtml#turn-channel Please update. 9. Section 12.2: The reference to ZRTP [RFC6189] is likely in the wrong category, at the same time moving this to a normative one creates a downref. I guess it one that has to be accepted in this case. I suggest that you move it to the normative references. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jun 28 10:16:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245FD12B02B for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SZ5T_OG5cDNR for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9841A12D592 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id a125so41927847qkc.2 for ; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=L9gAFOz1O1WyZhkdLoRYe//j/5Uf4yRMtW6vEbdMHLw=; b=NC2QaH11zULL2VrMKLAdo2BfmqadxX59PI33lQ1fjd3tkYfWil4rC1Pl3n4k+yAAUr ZgT+xafwebgNwKT8EO0L1mzGdTUv07iwmb18b8+jxpoSTFEZgdZ8p/+N2MYm73mZACKM uR4boMbSc2lrirWYFW1Y1JgqVXdCuEwgM88jkiYO5BUNmwyBvTXnkScLdUzQpaqz14w8 jPvZecmIK6wZ6I0Zyn2H6BGg29H5M68C8khsWojv3RAZwgc+p48UrPxB3QhEjYmmgz3M BZ8zWT39bkC0Hjl+56KJWbRkeRrfCR/niQIuDKQ4Opir+LScwoiruI/kVBPMnLruKr9/ olww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L9gAFOz1O1WyZhkdLoRYe//j/5Uf4yRMtW6vEbdMHLw=; b=DB7M5NpUfzpcnURBFnrzCTQSmVZq5JvS62OiK63LjtPoPQDZhTG2T1La8q5+LOAgHS MaR51FJTF5RGMwfKWa6+UbRvxa5KzAX12FttZFb0fKVyQpai0T8LA9c/6lahL6ckjdgc zwuN0JiLiezzCzrtv9DnRojcj9uKxko7vR/2p5ZrZt3Oc/lLYvQJQ9A/HCnzMdWH1xOh GFnXg9puJgdXEx4iPBQtRIxDHnsQ3yIC8Q1qZ+qwYr6vOPusnA4Dy+1CxQBHGfmtd2x3 aHLv51+PjTeu29hziHgoFCOEzckp4t2V2p3wmpq8AJhn2Sv49oWNuAaPMR+C62EsxffB Gxag== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIdADse9xzNEfgPupqrK+6Ci/0YC4jdJCtIK8Woz2y+hiJEu7r5UUiyRMWelUdymHFiQaNBof202qd6kOfa X-Received: by 10.13.228.133 with SMTP id n127mr1416573ywe.131.1467134177294; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.233.194 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:16:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Emil Ivov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c034fcc7a1e46053659cbef Archived-At: Cc: Jonathan Lennox , Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Issue with candidate deduplication rule X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:16:21 -0000 --94eb2c034fcc7a1e46053659cbef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well, if a host candidate is signaled first, and then a server reflexive candidate is signaled with the same address, I wouldn't expect the host candidate to be replaced. I think PR candidates are the only candidates that should be replaced regardless of priority. On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: > That's a pretty good catch! (Darned aggressive nomination!!!) > > I wonder if the fix-rule should mention PR candidates at all though. > Are there cases where the priority should not be overwritten? > > Emil > > > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Peter Thatcher > wrote: > > I think Taylor is correct, and I think that small change should fix it. > I > > suggest we update the doc to represent this change and then bring it up > in > > Berlin. > > > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Jonathan Lennox > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter > >> wrote: > >> > >> At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the > higher > >> priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: > >> https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential > >> issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates. > >> > >> It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply > >> because a binding request was received before the candidate was > signaled. > >> Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be > >> replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because > the > >> peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. > >> > >> As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair > >> differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive > while > >> the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have > >> different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which > could > >> result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric > selection > >> if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive > >> nomination. > >> > >> So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive > candidates > >> are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of > priority. > >> > >> > >> This makes sense to me. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ice mailing list > >> Ice@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ice mailing list > > Ice@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > > > -- > https://jitsi.org > --94eb2c034fcc7a1e46053659cbef Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, if a host candidate is signaled first, and then a se= rver reflexive candidate is signaled with the same address, I wouldn't = expect the host candidate to be replaced. I think PR candidates are the onl= y candidates that should be replaced regardless of priority.

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 7:= 58 PM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:
That's a pretty good catch!=C2=A0 (Darned aggressive nomi= nation!!!)

I wonder if the fix-rule should mention PR candidates at all though.
Are there cases where the priority should not be overwritten?

Emil



On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
> I think Taylor is correct, and I think that small change should fix it= .=C2=A0 I
> suggest we update the doc to represent this change and then bring it u= p in
> Berlin.
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Taylor Brandstetter <deadbeef@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the= higher
>> priority if duplicate candidates are received (see:
>> https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). = However, I see a potential
>> issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates.=
>>
>> It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be crea= ted simply
>> because a binding request was received before the candidate was si= gnaled.
>> Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would n= ot be
>> replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled,= because the
>> peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority.<= br> >>
>> As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair=
>> differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer refle= xive while
>> the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints coul= d have
>> different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, w= hich could
>> result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric= selection
>> if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggress= ive
>> nomination.
>>
>> So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive can= didates
>> are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of pr= iority.
>>
>>
>> This makes sense to me.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>



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