From nobody Mon Jul 3 19:55:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34AAF1316EC for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 19:55:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NWRTij7lzWiw for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 19:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F1D1129AEA for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 19:55:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1548; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1499136954; x=1500346554; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=stHZxYw6jql/UF2LV/DqYNEXisPeTSQYNWCL8j395b8=; b=G3hEu6bx2Qawq41IAIMFZBsjPoc4NEI2L0mujHo1tUpbhLVUHdYDygvF o27ZlTM04X+4nV9mkLVaq7Q/gNJKrrNsEJ2x5c8nKiXlll6nKdU0IRr1z IGmcI9v03pQyb4gPfeLVhI3JFvgME65amB/0hPKYKPALfGRN2nXt2yO/J 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CYAADWAltZ/5BdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBg1ljgQ4HjX+ncIIRLoVuAoJ9PxgBAgEBAQEBAQFrHQuFGQMDOj0?= =?us-ascii?q?CEAIBCDYQMhsBBgMCBA4Fii8QsiOLSQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAR2DJ?= =?us-ascii?q?4NMgWGDJIMmhzgFkEiONwKHRIw6ggxWhHSKR5UvAR84gQp1FR+HP3YBh36BDQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.40,306,1496102400"; d="scan'208";a="449679830" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Jul 2017 02:55:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-016.cisco.com (xch-rtp-016.cisco.com [64.101.220.156]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v642trvn006484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:55:53 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-019.cisco.com (64.101.220.159) by XCH-RTP-016.cisco.com (64.101.220.156) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 22:55:52 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-019.cisco.com ([64.101.220.159]) by XCH-RTP-019.cisco.com ([64.101.220.159]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 3 Jul 2017 22:55:52 -0400 From: "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" To: "ice@ietf.org" CC: "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" , Varun Singh Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHS8U+Wig5GBNOOx0ifcFXwH4/eDKJDnrSA Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 02:55:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <149879272611.4630.2979282787670151200.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149879272611.4630.2979282787670151200.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.0.161029 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.196.120.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] FW: New Version Notification for draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 02:55:56 -0000 Hi WG, We have submitted a draft that talks about the different considerations of using MPRTP with DTLS-SRTP. Please have a look and provide your inputs. Thanks, Kaustubh On 6/30/17, 8:48 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: > >A new version of I-D, draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01.txt >has been successfully submitted by Kaustubh Inamdar and posted to the >IETF repository. > >Name: draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp >Revision: 01 >Title: Multipath RTP (MPRTP) with Secure Real-Time Transport (SRTP) >Document date: 2017-06-29 >Group: Individual Submission >Pages: 9 >URL: =20 >https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01.txt >Status: =20 >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp/ >Htmlized: =20 >https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01 >Htmlized: =20 >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01 >Diff: =20 >https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kaustubh-mprtp-dtls-srtp-01 > >Abstract: > This document describes the considerations when using Multipath RTP > (MPRTP) with Secure Real-time Transport (SRTP) security context set > up with the Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) protocol. > > =20 > =20 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >The IETF Secretariat > From nobody Tue Jul 4 08:01:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0033512706D for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 08:01:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67YAAtymLRHM for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 08:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9E451320CB for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 08:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-bea2a9c000001b2f-30-595badcf5ad5 Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.57]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E6.00.06959.FCDAB595; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:01:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.98]) by ESESSHC013.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.57]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:00:43 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre , Taylor Brandstetter CC: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHS7150t+qE8lQMSkOqjp9ccw86DKI4vNmAgAELVwCAAPxNgIAJCPqw Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 15:00:43 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC4C401@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <149857920657.31053.9792912095929561449@ietfa.amsl.com> <6c6dbeae-e204-5a58-a8a8-14be746fb40a@stpeter.im> <9ecc8e18-79d6-6d4b-ac90-3f87f939cdb8@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <9ecc8e18-79d6-6d4b-ac90-3f87f939cdb8@stpeter.im> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpkkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdUvf82uhIg5P3BCwur3jIavHtQq3F sT39zA7MHgs2lXosWfKTyWPunhfMAcxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBkLph1hKzjIUdG+uLaBcS1b FyMnh4SAicSTvzcZQWwhgSOMEjO6fbsYuYDsRYwSSxZ3AiU4ONgELCS6/2mD1IgIhEt8Pt4E FmYWUJR4uVcNJCwsYCPR0r6dFaLEVmLJi5fsICUiAm4SN35ZgYRZBFQkjl/ZDbaJV8BX4tDk b4wQmz4xSlxftZgFJMEpYCcx/fpzsDmMAmIS30+tYQKxmQXEJW49mc8EcbKAxJI955khbFGJ l4//sULYShKNS56wQtTrSCzY/YkNwtaWWLbwNTPEYkGJkzOfsExgFJ2FZOwsJC2zkLTMQtKy gJFlFaNocWpxcW66kZFealFmcnFxfp5eXmrJJkZgxBzc8ttqB+PB546HGAU4GJV4eN/PjI4U Yk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMI7eQ1QiDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0B4uSOK/DvgsRQgLpiSWp2amp BalFMFkmDk6pBkbNx8evzHPUzu7Ja1ad9NhRdOKiy83iHB9P5fKXTGnK1Yv87ThTcd2fvuSj s1weqTzyCtynsbHQ4aiHiPHnXwZ5eyX3KH/1VFnbNSli5adZAudSThy2uiTymYl5vQ+rwr7Q g7v9ZinaHmCrFeuKn16Xlmz5MWvaW5G7tv+/n/r9PHvrwW+xy4qVWIozEg21mIuKEwGNC9z1 lAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 15:01:42 -0000 Hi, ... >> ICE also specifies >> that, if all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation are >> unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 representing both componen= ts >> for the audio stream), then all of the candidate pairs in the ent= ire >> column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 3 and 4). >>=20 >>=20 >> This isn't true any more. RFC5245bis appears to only have two rules=20 >> about unfreezing now: >>=20 >> 1. If a pair succeeds, everything with the same foundation is unfrozen. >> 2. If Ta fires for a checklist, and its whole row is frozen, every cell >> that's part of a column that's completely frozen is unfrozen >> (enforced by section 5.1.4.2, step 2). This is still pretty weird, >> but at least not as complex as the "for each component" rule before. >>=20 >> #2 isn't called out. Should it be? > > I'll let you and Christer decide on what's right here. ;-) Well, YOU also need to understand the text in 5245bis. And, if something is= unclear, we need to fix it. Regards, Christer From nobody Tue Jul 4 12:46:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2F3131A25 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:46:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NpW_B_Qq30AS for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D96B131A1A for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-81bff70000001b2f-e8-595bf076efc2 Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.33]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 61.BA.06959.670FB595; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 21:45:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.98]) by ESESSHC005.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Tue, 4 Jul 2017 21:45:58 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: "ice@ietf.org" CC: Peter Thatcher Thread-Topic: [Ice] Agenda requests for ICE WG at IETF 99 Thread-Index: AQHS7oAnBIHx9g+AbkOiF7513c5pj6JD/ceA Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 19:45:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6B4FC4E1-63B8-46E9-8043-5B89DD44DB1A@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <6B4FC4E1-63B8-46E9-8043-5B89DD44DB1A@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <7E91D10BCDEAEE4AAC45942140543353@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupnkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbFdUbfsQ3SkwfXVqhbfLtRaXFv+mtWB yWPBplKPJUt+MgUwRXHZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlrP91h62gibGi72t5A2NiFyMnh4SAicSd99sY uxi5OIQEjjBKvLh8ihXCWcQoMa9xLyNIFZuAvcTkNR/BbBEBRYmZLc+YQWxmAU2J+ycXsoPY wgIWEg+vL2KCqLGUOPNvM1ANB5BtJLFmmTVImEVAReLi6resIGFeoJFz/yiDhIWAzPaLy9lA bE4BB4lzRxrBJjIKiEl8P7WGCWKTuMStJ/OZIG4WkFiy5zwzhC0q8fLxP1YIW0micckTVoh6 PYkbU6ewQdjWEp/a26DmaEssW/garJdXQFDi5MwnLBMYxWYhWTELSfssJO2zkLTPQtK+gJF1 FaNocWpxcW66kZFealFmcnFxfp5eXmrJJkZgNB3c8ttqB+PB546HGAU4GJV4eP0vRUcKsSaW FVfmHmKU4GBWEuHdeRsoxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGag0VJnNdh34UIIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQi mCwTB6dUA6Mg3w7LSf+/ltRkMZ3ays406znnKkvthWJmjd5dNV/FWNpd9XLvfeD69OveEdvG ZXsnCB9fKG3qPqss+N79h0cTtA99SWm43WniW3w53cLFwfdXRs2e/J01UZnb52Wx8eX/aGlg 2RprsmqdwL/4+RuXfHAI/iRZ9GUpx0GFspfyT1/fEmsv11diKc5INNRiLipOBACw3Q76ogIA AA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Agenda requests for ICE WG at IETF 99 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 19:46:02 -0000 Friendly reminder; if you have not requested session time yet but would lik= e to have it, now is the time. Thanks, Ari From nobody Wed Jul 5 13:48:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259EF126B7F for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9fRyrCobOK4D for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com (mail-qt0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1413C131DDA for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id b40so521688qtb.2 for ; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:48:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WI2lwf/d/de1BTQwp1MGBAalDgrn5Jt8nDDyQKOwVFU=; b=AXzZ04948TUt31BrhdtMal06FFN7KJRGPm59Lo8bnX4lN/XmTQEUODxAQ8FY/0vdxe eFSBnbhfeOfkCDmqHTpkeZJu7xqejQFZdLVC7nFRUPXzd+QPYRA6dbO0KtNfxzr6rSIp uC0dIl+4rIjT2fDa1F3R6NURclrZwf2Vi6Enz+SvE7RmUTDWAiIIAu2vQL5Bsoa53R6D ZGkRiVB/fJpwqhkYcKQeXrGQZSbSh27+siuw8N8Y5f4cn1JTJXVFNM5pAaTTPK2XkraA s1+yTJm7+ioQ4IpOk8iYLNRFxNpLllNk1xJ17efrn5qfOPqouEH2G+zHtPtg91khY0kq 6BgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WI2lwf/d/de1BTQwp1MGBAalDgrn5Jt8nDDyQKOwVFU=; b=oIFcVqzbqt8AQo6YQiZvkDZ5MRLCM7safduwOQFoXl0V1gi5RbmOPIVEkcMPxHijUe mronRRGjU7xAxHBWtT/PfGBlcT9lSAkoYMISeYxdVaNAKax2iFTmVUHEQoSiMWJhqAtH 7+JTB0MoQjmEBKh/Sjuq6rohqUDDJZu4T/dNQfrgV+CprcqVK1xqNANdw5Gl7LMdFlt7 6smAH5G7o4RupDmI5fdnNWDvMDKoL80HVQgTD4kq2j2sCAFqqZrJMAQhqDlIOYYPerwH ZHbEA8hYvnkM3mRjpVRRZwBtuxi9HsTmlEjbPgkKhr3zCKEUGNE62Syn2hzmEMHTauqT zrvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113lZu4NtueVdg0ROHB5hKU742YH5mBc9K0Nj42zA02br4BNbUOe zA0OO4tp5zhf7cNmCfKuKtRHvAYhWEdf X-Received: by 10.237.52.39 with SMTP id w36mr8517170qtd.142.1499287700123; Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:48:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.172.132 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:48:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC4C401@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <149857920657.31053.9792912095929561449@ietfa.amsl.com> <6c6dbeae-e204-5a58-a8a8-14be746fb40a@stpeter.im> <9ecc8e18-79d6-6d4b-ac90-3f87f939cdb8@stpeter.im> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC4C401@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> From: Taylor Brandstetter Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:48:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c124d46c8982e0553981e03" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 20:48:24 -0000 --94eb2c124d46c8982e0553981e03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Personally, I don't think trickle ICE needs to restate *all* the rules of 5245bis. The important piece of information to convey is that trickle ICE retains the 5245bis rules for how to update candidate pair states when "Ta" fires or when a connectivity check finishes, with the addition of the new rules called out in section 7.2 (Check List and Timer State Updates). So I'd suggest just deleting the "all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation" paragraph. On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > ... > > >> ICE also specifies > >> that, if all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation are > >> unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 representing both > components > >> for the audio stream), then all of the candidate pairs in the > entire > >> column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 3 and 4). > >> > >> > >> This isn't true any more. RFC5245bis appears to only have two rules > >> about unfreezing now: > >> > >> 1. If a pair succeeds, everything with the same foundation is unfrozen. > >> 2. If Ta fires for a checklist, and its whole row is frozen, every cell > >> that's part of a column that's completely frozen is unfrozen > >> (enforced by section 5.1.4.2, step 2). This is still pretty weird, > >> but at least not as complex as the "for each component" rule before. > >> > >> #2 isn't called out. Should it be? > > > > I'll let you and Christer decide on what's right here. ;-) > > Well, YOU also need to understand the text in 5245bis. And, if something > is unclear, we need to fix it. > > Regards, > > Christer > --94eb2c124d46c8982e0553981e03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Personally, I don't think trickle ICE needs to restate= all=C2=A0the rules of 5245bis. The important piece of information t= o convey is that trickle ICE retains the 5245bis rules for how to update ca= ndidate pair states when "Ta" fires or when a connectivity check = finishes, with the addition of the new rules called out in section 7.2 (Che= ck List and Timer State Updates). So I'd suggest just deleting the &quo= t;all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation" paragraph.
=

On Tue, Jul 4, 20= 17 at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.= com> wrote:
Hi,

...

>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ICE also specifies
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that, if all the pairs in a media strea= m for one foundation are
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 = representing both components
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the audio stream), then all of the = candidate pairs in the entire
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, ro= ws 3 and 4).
>>
>>
>> This isn't true any more. RFC5245bis appears to only have two = rules
>> about unfreezing now:
>>
>>=C2=A0 1. If a pair succeeds, everything with the same foundation i= s unfrozen.
>>=C2=A0 2. If Ta fires for a checklist, and its whole row is frozen,= every cell
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that's part of a column that's complete= ly frozen is unfrozen
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(enforced by section 5.1.4.2, step 2). This is = still pretty weird,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0but at least not as complex as the "for ea= ch component" rule before.
>>
>> #2 isn't called out. Should it be?
>
> I'll let you and Christer decide on what's right here. ;-)

Well, YOU also need to understand the text in 5245bis. And, if somet= hing is unclear, we need to fix it.

Regards,

Christer

--94eb2c124d46c8982e0553981e03-- From nobody Wed Jul 5 13:49:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709D2131844 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id phe76lA9B7oH for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91935131768 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-81bff70000001b2f-61-595d50f274a3 Received: from ESESSHC021.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.81]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 4F.EF.06959.2F05D595; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 22:49:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.98]) by ESESSHC021.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 22:49:54 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: ICE WG CC: Peter Thatcher Thread-Topic: ICE WG draft agenda for IETF #99 Thread-Index: AQHS9dBAv9AnvjwApE6ACwLnW9dunA== Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 20:49:53 +0000 Message-ID: <03714574-84CA-4040-86B9-C21C9641650C@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <3B0681BBF34D4645B861164B7F4D90C2@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7oO6ngNhIgzvHTSy+Xai1uLb8NasD k8eCTaUeS5b8ZApgiuKySUnNySxLLdK3S+DKOL9tNlvBK9aKrjfn2BsYH7F0MXJySAiYSLy5 0cPUxcjFISRwhFFi5ZIGZghnEaPEzzlLGEGq2ATsJSav+QhmiwhISrT82cgKYjMLaErcP7mQ HcQWBrI/b/3EClGjJ7Fi1gU4u+nyczYQm0VARWLRqj1g9bxAM68vfQtmMwqISXw/tYYJYqa4 xK0n85kgrhOQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/VghbSWLR7c9Q9XoSN6ZOYYOwrSUmz3oBFdeWWLbwNTPE LkGJkzOfsExgFJmFZMUsJO2zkLTPQtI+C0n7AkbWVYyixanFxbnpRkZ6qUWZycXF+Xl6eakl mxiBUXJwy2+rHYwHnzseYhTgYFTi4WWziY0UYk0sK67MPcQowcGsJMI7VQ8oxJuSWFmVWpQf X1Sak1p8iFGag0VJnNdh34UIIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dUA6Nx1EKNn+Ub1OqmFaqZCNmd vPysPnpd8C3/gLgcu9CV9h1WxXf5z9+/G3n3+mzjdbmPV95UDmuJnpj8oVT1UeemXI3PBwwX 5qgmaSaLa8l9nexysux244mHkZmNzdwPf8YEuEVv7n7qxbRM68rq6vfhszjYbhvN+LTt3d3K GxYiUsseRj3mfqfEUpyRaKjFXFScCACyAsr3jgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] ICE WG draft agenda for IETF #99 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 20:49:58 -0000 Draft agenda for the ICE WG meeting in Prague IETF is now available: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-99-ice/ The focus of this meeting will be finalising our last WG items. ICE-bis has= no longer major technical open issues but set of editorial changes need re= view. Please have a look at the latest draft and the pull-requests in Githu= b: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-10 https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls Also note that Trickle ICE concluded the WGLC and we are now preparing for = publication request. Now is the final moment to raise issues and have a cha= nce to discuss them in f2f meeting. Please let us know if you have any questions or comments. Thanks, Ari & Peter= From nobody Wed Jul 5 13:52:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D624A129B43 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=stpeter.im header.b=geIRYwWG; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=f0xwBPiH Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytYjqMfi27pL for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E904126B7F for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BFFD20701; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 05 Jul 2017 16:52:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stpeter.im; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ssYRH61Pf0UOKlcBUF 8+hPR1pD+OV1lpYGJT6/TeXro=; b=geIRYwWGMkI8Pd1AToBb44DmxIDkInli4C IpzNFDU8A4KWOO6oh4rjMNphXv1Ixi1FD2YNHz4799gQfygj51gawV5ua0mXErEk KntCksqrbuREnc3qN5F4HVht9wru36wszALMcs+ns58lCb94Pn2BVtfLNab3cMa3 +rOnktWQ4F3Hdq7LJ4R3VPVkVxyIH5tjPDHKhkjSwA1Dau1om/IHLsPuELf7Y5Qt cgzubulsnEDYNNFLBHyk2YGGKef+MvoiW4eec1EBlVT32S1cSLjshJt4H7moL0Fo vOOPT+hBD994wPYJMdOfm5SfH2+4WNr02PLLuPLh1tE1W7L9fdOQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=ssYRH61Pf0UOKlcBUF8+hPR1pD+OV1lpYGJT6/TeXro=; b=f0xwBPiH bNzkpitwNSE3uGELCr4vXa+SA2rjuOl4DVrXPEiHtqGhnt0gmlHqSgwlNJOW2LEw Pqa8HO0XzISDYOy7bftIhM7UBeORHThXEpJSU5Q1G+RDtF4lp3MZ8Y9PXbT8W4q1 1487BgwZUJUJjEzXrr2Yn524vR+0+UvJep6LTFWi34CZjezmn/D+DHAvo7BfhoXq 14bmtiLxPWx0q0S4qDjcabpcHmRmzmjZrRHIUKrbh/Wioe1LNjUqKsGdIEKP6Xdt HkOSnlIRrlFn1oWsnZE1AOnY27lkwTD5vZcFHpWdQ/Dx/RXmDM2a9tC0Kf4pjzkV JQ5aEHmnbjzIhw== X-ME-Sender: X-Sasl-enc: lwYe1QA37iaIlwSdb0kpiC1aI9FjKxO2DBD5ybQyF/WZ 1499287930 Received: from aither.local (c-98-245-40-52.hsd1.co.comcast.net [98.245.40.52]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EA57E7E6EE; Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:52:09 -0400 (EDT) To: Taylor Brandstetter , Christer Holmberg References: <149857920657.31053.9792912095929561449@ietfa.amsl.com> <6c6dbeae-e204-5a58-a8a8-14be746fb40a@stpeter.im> <9ecc8e18-79d6-6d4b-ac90-3f87f939cdb8@stpeter.im> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC4C401@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Cc: "ice@ietf.org" From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: <60aa86c3-05b4-ca4c-20c5-2c38498e338f@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 14:52:09 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2017 20:52:13 -0000 WFM - it's never a great idea to restate things because they might change in the original and there is the possiblity of misunderstanding. On 7/5/17 2:48 PM, Taylor Brandstetter wrote: > Personally, I don't think trickle ICE needs to restate /all/ the rules > of 5245bis. The important piece of information to convey is that trickle > ICE retains the 5245bis rules for how to update candidate pair states > when "Ta" fires or when a connectivity check finishes, with the addition > of the new rules called out in section 7.2 (Check List and Timer State > Updates). So I'd suggest just deleting the "all the pairs in a media > stream for one foundation" paragraph. > > On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg > > > wrote: > > Hi, > > ... > > >> ICE also specifies > >> that, if all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation are > >> unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 representing both components > >> for the audio stream), then all of the candidate pairs in the entire > >> column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 3 and 4). > >> > >> > >> This isn't true any more. RFC5245bis appears to only have two rules > >> about unfreezing now: > >> > >> 1. If a pair succeeds, everything with the same foundation is unfrozen. > >> 2. If Ta fires for a checklist, and its whole row is frozen, every cell > >> that's part of a column that's completely frozen is unfrozen > >> (enforced by section 5.1.4.2, step 2). This is still pretty weird, > >> but at least not as complex as the "for each component" rule before. > >> > >> #2 isn't called out. Should it be? > > > > I'll let you and Christer decide on what's right here. ;-) > > Well, YOU also need to understand the text in 5245bis. And, if > something is unclear, we need to fix it. > > Regards, > > Christer > > From nobody Tue Jul 11 22:28:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25591292F5 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yuqbF1J1QLx3 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22f.google.com (mail-pg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB7BD12706D for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id j186so7205229pge.2 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=p8Wp9qhWgn9B9sbMca4fXxUuueLA6tlCuraN8VYB6RE=; b=Yy0Q9hszVQkeQDYGpJ9K5x24ybgyjh2BnGCEOY/HZKReJhmi0UuM/KLkwnRXHFfV5O qrF3CksQ35IFr5FWuemP8BAUF1/cQ6kOcM656f6QzltlFBo/SWecC1g0viwEcLN+Tz8/ ON3Aioz1Rd2ARa0LoVYCNh1L0/BB7PFqtAFyY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=p8Wp9qhWgn9B9sbMca4fXxUuueLA6tlCuraN8VYB6RE=; b=PYx7g4lImPWLm8AQ7GBRuSnsWz9uG5v5fWztTb8xTr+ELYqcWrXwH0u2iGGQ9E9iVO uVY0jF11XwTY1Kfvbk5T8KkUqUFzUXngsrnCkb4bZ+T1xtevg7FqBs+NtizXGUip4CHZ ZulRg5SVBUTDC8eNUqxdhYi9AMLyL0dJXzaO2gFvsBV+xGx6MnTEVLam6pe5Cbkmi4CJ tj/Eb/h5/N8RUaw1pt8bevuk+rwzn3JyU9wZMxcP3yEVHlMxm0qWTCsFBmw9mWfNk8rJ 5kUcK3jTSJCbe14bTOLEaiwg/iyJPm2/p+oYru4oiIno4Zs8iOYA6p0z8wcq0ifTybUV /JRA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111Q0R2Ox6IYpvMxKb9M7iDB7Qvt1mfFyifX+xxu+SY6BeO0OK/b JCEVsbdkt65tNjDyBeMTiw== X-Received: by 10.101.76.140 with SMTP id m12mr2059958pgt.159.1499837312900; Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4601:6487:a197:d274:ff1e:1d24? ([2601:647:4601:6487:a197:d274:ff1e:1d24]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t11sm2188180pfi.66.2017.07.11.22.28.31 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Nils Ohlmeier Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_17C8D177-B928-4E11-BFEE-AEC87C4433E9"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Message-Id: <18FCFE8D-272A-4927-8899-8B2698C43C65@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:28:28 -0700 To: "ice@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Review of draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 05:28:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_17C8D177-B928-4E11-BFEE-AEC87C4433E9 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2283B61B-6B13-49A9-A532-49BFC09B5523" --Apple-Mail=_2283B61B-6B13-49A9-A532-49BFC09B5523 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello, I reviewed draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12 and have the following comments. Section 5.2: "After the initiator and responder exchange ICE descriptions, =E2=80=A6" This sounds to me like both agents can only start after ICE descriptions = have been exchanged. But in fact especially the initiator can start receiving check requests = without having received the responders ICE description, learn remote candidates from these requests. = I guess 5245-bis covers that the ICE initiator needs to ready to receive incoming check = requests any time. But it might help to make this sound a little less strict. "Under Trickle ICE, check lists can be empty until candidate pairs are conveyed or received." I thought that Trickle ICE conveys or receives candidates, which then = get turned into candidate pairs once they are paired up. So I think this =E2=80=9Ccandidates = pairs=E2=80=9D should be replaced with =E2=80=9Ccandidates=E2=80=9D here. Section 8.1.1, 4th paragraph below figure 2: "Then, as the checks proceed (see Section 6.2.5.4 of [rfc5245bis]), for each pair that enters the Succeeded state (denoted here by "S"), the agent will unfreeze all pairs for all media streams with the same foundation (e.g., if the pair in column 1, row 1 succeeds then the agent will unfreeze the pair in column 1, row 2)." This sentence, up to the last brackets with the example, got me to = expect that the agent will unfreeze rows 2-4. So I was surprised that only row 2 in the example gets = unfrozen. "ICE also specifies that, if all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 representing both components for the audio stream), then all of the candidate pairs in the entire column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 3 and 4)." After this next sentences I think either of these two sentences needs to = be updated. Based on the example data in the brackets I guess the first sentence here should be =E2=80=9CTh= en, as the checks proceed, for each pair that enters the Succeeded state, the agent will unfreeze all pairs with = the same foundation for the same media stream as the succeeded pair.=E2=80=9D Or is the first sentence right, and the example data is wrong and the = second sentence not needed? In all there paragraphs for Case 1-3 I would suggest to replace =E2=80=9Ci= n this column=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cin it=E2=80=99s column=E2=80=9D. Section 8.2 I think the end-of-candidates indication is missing an indication for = the generation it applies to, for example by adding the ufrag. Because without it I=E2=80=99m not sure how = the receiving ICE agent knows to which ICE session to apply the end-of-candidates in case of an ICE = restart. Appendix A The numeric list for the first example should state explicitly what kind = of ICE agents Alice and Bob are having/using here, similar to the second example where 1. and 2. = explicitly describe the assumptions. --Apple-Mail=_2283B61B-6B13-49A9-A532-49BFC09B5523 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello,

I reviewed draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12 and have = the following comments.

Section 5.2:

"After the initiator and responder exchange ICE = descriptions,
=E2=80=A6"

This sounds to me like both agents can only start after ICE = descriptions have been exchanged. 
But in fact = especially the initiator can start receiving check requests without = having received the 
responders ICE description, = learn remote candidates from these requests. I guess 5245-bis
covers that the ICE initiator needs to ready to receive = incoming check requests any time.
But it might help = to make this sound a little less strict.

=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 
"Under Trickle ICE, check lists can =
be empty until candidate pairs are
conveyed or received."


					

				

			

		
I thought that Trickle ICE =
conveys or receives candidates, which then get turned into =
candidate 
pairs once they are paired up. So I =
think this =E2=80=9Ccandidates pairs=E2=80=9D should be replaced =
with 
=E2=80=9Ccandidates=E2=80=9D =
here.

Section =
8.1.1, 4th paragraph below figure 2:


=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
		

			

				

					

						=

"Then, as the checks proceed (see =
Section 6.2.5.4 of [rfc5245bis]),
   for each pair that enters the Succeeded state (denoted here by "S"),
   the agent will unfreeze all pairs for all media streams with the same
   foundation (e.g., if the pair in column 1, row 1 succeeds then the
   agent will unfreeze the pair in column 1, row 2)."


					

				

			

		
This sentence, up to the last =
brackets with the example, got me to expect that the agent will =
unfreeze
rows 2-4. So I was surprised that only row =
2 in the example gets unfrozen.



=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
		

			

				

					

						=

"ICE also specifies
   that, if all the pairs in a media stream for one foundation are
   unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 representing both components
   for the audio stream), then all of the candidate pairs in the entire
   column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 3 and 4)."


					

				

			

		
After this next =
sentences I think either of these two sentences needs to be updated. =
Based on the example
data in the brackets I guess =
the first sentence here should be =E2=80=9CThen, as the checks proceed, =
for each pair
that enters the Succeeded state, the =
agent will unfreeze all pairs with the same foundation for the =
same 
media stream as the succeeded =
pair.=E2=80=9D
Or is the first sentence right, and =
the example data is wrong and the second sentence not needed?

In all there paragraphs =
for Case 1-3 I would suggest to replace =E2=80=9Cin this column=E2=80=9D =
with =E2=80=9Cin it=E2=80=99s column=E2=80=9D.

Section 8.2

I think the end-of-candidates =
indication is missing an indication for the generation it applies to, =
for
example by adding the ufrag. Because without it =
I=E2=80=99m not sure how the receiving ICE agent knows
to which ICE session to apply the end-of-candidates in case =
of an ICE restart.

Appendix A

The numeric list for the first example should state =
explicitly what kind of ICE agents Alice and Bob
are =
having/using here, similar to the second example where 1. and 2. =
explicitly describe the assumptions.



=

--Apple-Mail=_2283B61B-6B13-49A9-A532-49BFC09B5523--

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Hi Nils,

Thanks for the review. Comments inline.

On 7/11/17 11:28 PM, Nils Ohlmeier wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I reviewed draft-ietf-ice-trickle-12 and have the following comments.
> 
> Section 5.2:
> 
> "After the initiator and responder exchange ICE descriptions,
> …"
> 
> This sounds to me like both agents can only start after ICE descriptions
> have been exchanged. 
> But in fact especially the initiator can start receiving check requests
> without having received the 
> responders ICE description, learn remote candidates from these requests.
> I guess 5245-bis
> covers that the ICE initiator needs to ready to receive incoming check
> requests any time.
> But it might help to make this sound a little less strict.

I suggest that we remove the first clause, so that the paragraph starts
like this:

   As soon as the agents have obtained local and remote candidates,...

> "Under Trickle ICE, check lists can be empty until candidate pairs are
> conveyed or received."
> 
> I thought that Trickle ICE conveys or receives candidates, which then
> get turned into candidate 
> pairs once they are paired up. So I think this “candidates pairs” should
> be replaced with 
> “candidates” here.

Agreed.

> Section 8.1.1, 4th paragraph below figure 2:
> 
> "Then, as the checks proceed (see Section 6.2.5.4 of [rfc5245bis]), for
> each pair that enters the Succeeded state (denoted here by "S"), the
> agent will unfreeze all pairs for all media streams with the same
> foundation (e.g., if the pair in column 1, row 1 succeeds then the agent
> will unfreeze the pair in column 1, row 2)."
> This sentence, up to the last brackets with the example, got me to
> expect that the agent will unfreeze
> rows 2-4. So I was surprised that only row 2 in the example gets unfrozen.

Yes, Taylor pointed this out, too. It's already fixed in source control:

https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/commit/d122941c1079be45013e1721cdbb07657f98a186#diff-f7ced034e08b14404c7832d8f5f19567

> "ICE also specifies that, if all the pairs in a media stream for one
> foundation are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 1 and 2 representing both
> components for the audio stream), then all of the candidate pairs in the
> entire column are unfrozen (e.g., column 1, rows 3 and 4)."
> After this next sentences I think either of these two sentences needs to
> be updated. Based on the example
> data in the brackets I guess the first sentence here should be “Then, as
> the checks proceed, for each pair
> that enters the Succeeded state, the agent will unfreeze all pairs with
> the same foundation for the same 
> media stream as the succeeded pair.”
> Or is the first sentence right, and the example data is wrong and the
> second sentence not needed?

We determined that the second sentence is not needed:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00804.html

> In all there paragraphs for Case 1-3 I would suggest to replace “in this
> column” with “in it’s column”.

That is indeed clearer.

> Section 8.2
> 
> I think the end-of-candidates indication is missing an indication for
> the generation it applies to, for
> example by adding the ufrag. Because without it I’m not sure how the
> receiving ICE agent knows
> to which ICE session to apply the end-of-candidates in case of an ICE
> restart.

I think that's right. For example, in Section 8 the spec states:

   Also, candidate trickling needs to be correlated to a specific ICE
   session, so that if there is an ICE restart, any delayed updates for
   a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the
   receiving party.

Thus we need to specify this "binding" in Secton 8.2, as well. I suggest
the following text change.

OLD

   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for a specific
   media stream, the agent will generate an "end-of-candidates"
   indication for that stream and convey it to the remote agent via the
   signaling channel.  The exact form of the indication depends on the
   application protocol.

NEW

   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for an ICE
   session associated with a specific media stream, the agent will
   generate an "end-of-candidates" indication for that session and
   convey it to the remote agent via the signaling channel.  Although
   the exact form of the indication depends on the application protocol,
   the indication MUST specify the generation (ufrag/pwd combination) so
   that an agent can correlate the end-of-candidates indication with a
   particular ICE session.

> Appendix A
> 
> The numeric list for the first example should state explicitly what kind
> of ICE agents Alice and Bob
> are having/using here, similar to the second example where 1. and 2.
> explicitly describe the assumptions.

I don't think the spec is explaining anything specific to trickle in the
first example (e.g., in step 2 of the first example, Alice could convey
the candidate to Bob in an initial ICE description or in a trickled
candidate - it doesn't make any difference.

However, I suggest that we might want to add a clause to the end of the
following paragraph:

OLD

   At this point the check list only contains Failed candidates and the
   valid list is empty.  This causes the media stream and potentially
   all ICE processing to fail.

NEW

   At this point the check list only contains Failed candidates and the
   valid list is empty.  This causes the media stream and potentially
   all ICE processing to fail, even though if trickle agents could
   subsequently convey candidates that would cause previously empty
   check lists to become non-empty.

Peter


From nobody Fri Jul 14 13:40:32 2017
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Subject: [Ice] Clarifying the scope of candidate priority uniqueness in ICEbis
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--001a113cc1603580af05544d0f2e
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FYI, I created an issue for ICEbis to clarify the scope of candidate
priority uniqueness:
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/issues/39

Basically, it says that the priority has to be unique, but isn't very
explicit about what the scope of that uniqueness is, and I'd like to see it
be more explicit.  Kind of boring stuff :).

--001a113cc1603580af05544d0f2e
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FYI, I created an issue for ICEbis to clarify the sco=
pe of candidate priority uniqueness:

Basically, it says that the priority ha=
s to be unique, but isn't very explicit about what the scope of that un=
iqueness is, and I'd like to see it be more explicit.=C2=A0 Kind of bor=
ing stuff :).


--001a113cc1603580af05544d0f2e--


From nobody Sun Jul 16 16:19:54 2017
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Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF.

        Title           : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol
        Authors         : Emil Ivov
                          Eric Rescorla
                          Justin Uberti
                          Peter Saint-Andre
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2017-07-16

Abstract:
   This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the
   Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables
   ICE agents to send and receive candidates incrementally rather than
   exchanging complete lists.  With such incremental provisioning, ICE
   agents can begin connectivity checks while they are still gathering
   candidates and considerably shorten the time necessary for ICE
   processing to complete.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13.txt
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This version addresses WGLC feedback from Nils Ohlmeier.

On 7/16/17 5:19 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment of the IETF.
> 
>         Title           : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol
>         Authors         : Emil Ivov
>                           Eric Rescorla
>                           Justin Uberti
>                           Peter Saint-Andre
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13.txt
> 	Pages           : 31
> 	Date            : 2017-07-16
> 
> Abstract:
>    This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the
>    Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables
>    ICE agents to send and receive candidates incrementally rather than
>    exchanging complete lists.  With such incremental provisioning, ICE
>    agents can begin connectivity checks while they are still gathering
>    candidates and considerably shorten the time necessary for ICE
>    processing to complete.
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/
> 
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-13
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
> 


From nobody Mon Jul 17 06:13:09 2017
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= 
To: ICE WG 
CC: Flemming Andreasen , Peter Thatcher 
Thread-Topic: ICE session at Prague IETF
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Subject: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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Hi all,

Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve remain=
ing comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the meeting.

The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in the Gith=
ub:
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
(note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)

Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the meeting. I=
ssues that seem to require more review / hammering for consensus, we'll tak=
e during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes that have a risk of uni=
ntentionally changing behavior. For this session, it would be important to =
have people joining who are familiar with the specification and can comment=
 whether the proposed fixes cause unintentional side effects.=20

Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but Flemming =
Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you Flemming!


Cheers,
Ari=


From nobody Mon Jul 17 08:27:50 2017
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To: "ice@ietf.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:27:33 -0600
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Subject: [Ice] change to trickle section 8.2
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Based on the review from Nils, in version -13 of the trickle I-D we made
one substantive change to the first paragraph of section 8.2, including
addition of a MUST-level requirement.

OLD

   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for a specific
   media stream, the agent will generate an "end-of-candidates"
   indication for that stream and convey it to the remote agent via the
   signaling channel.  The exact form of the indication depends on the
   application protocol.

NEW

   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for an ICE
   session associated with a specific media stream, the agent will
   generate an "end-of-candidates" indication for that session and
   convey it to the remote agent via the signaling channel.  Although
   the exact form of the indication depends on the application protocol,
   the indication MUST specify the generation (ufrag/pwd combination) so
   that an agent can correlate the end-of-candidates indication with a
   particular ICE session.

I didn't want this to slip by without notice. Please comment on the list
if you have concerns.

Peter


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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= , ICE WG 
References: <5238F43A-CA05-4BE3-ACA6-A8A58DDF21BC@ericsson.com>
Cc: Flemming Andreasen , Peter Thatcher 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Message-ID: <0f167fa9-66b7-9616-b28f-a74d336b7e7d@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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On 7/17/17 7:13 AM, Ari Keränen wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve
> remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after
> the meeting.
> 
> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in
> the Github: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls (note that PR
> #38 is a subset of #35)

The editorial changes looked fine to me. It was difficult at times to
review the more substantive changes because they were all mixed into a
large diff.

Peter


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To: ICE WG 
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From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
CC: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= , ICE WG , "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" , "Peter Thatcher" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
Thread-Index: AQHS/v5r1BW+NK3gSEO56hrtfuZNVqJYbxuAgAMB03I=
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:50:07 +0000
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References: <5238F43A-CA05-4BE3-ACA6-A8A58DDF21BC@ericsson.com>, <0f167fa9-66b7-9616-b28f-a74d336b7e7d@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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Hi,=20

Sorry, away from any decent keyboard. Camping with the family..=20

I do not have any concerns at this stage. I promise to do a thorough review=
 when I return.=20

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Jul 2017, at 17:55, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>=20
>> On 7/17/17 7:13 AM, Ari Ker=E4nen wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve
>> remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after
>> the meeting.
>>=20
>> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in
>> the Github: https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls (note that PR
>> #38 is a subset of #35)
>=20
> The editorial changes looked fine to me. It was difficult at times to
> review the more substantive changes because they were all mixed into a
> large diff.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


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From: Peter Thatcher 
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 01:11:57 +0000
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To: =?UTF-8?B?QXJpIEtlcsOkbmVu?= ,  ICE WG 
Cc: Flemming Andreasen 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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I left some comments on them.  I agree that a few could use a double check
to make sure they are equivalent.  And a few are somewhat non-editorial and
should get confirmation.

But the "offline?" one I don't understand.  It seems like I didn't change
anything except make it shorter.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 8:47 AM Ari Ker=C3=A4nen 
wrote:

> I marked set of changes in the P38 with "for IETF 99 session":
> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files
>
> I believe these changes in particular would benefit from few extra pair o=
f
> eyes to see that we did not cause unintentional side effects with these
> changes.
>
> In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for "Need to take
> off-line?" comment).
>
>
> Cheers,
> Ari
>
> > On 17 Jul 2017, at 15.13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen  w=
rote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve
> remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the
> meeting.
> >
> > The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in the
> Github:
> > https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
> > (note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)
> >
> > Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the
> meeting. Issues that seem to require more review / hammering for consensu=
s,
> we'll take during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes that have a
> risk of unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, it would be
> important to have people joining who are familiar with the specification
> and can comment whether the proposed fixes cause unintentional side effec=
ts.
> >
> > Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but
> Flemming Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you
> Flemming!
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ari
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ice mailing list
> > Ice@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

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I left some comments on them.=C2=A0 I agree that a few cou=
ld use a double check to make sure they are equivalent.=C2=A0 And a few are=
 somewhat non-editorial and should get confirmation.

But=
 the "offline?" one I don't understand.=C2=A0 It seems like I=
 didn't change anything except make it shorter.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 8:47 AM Ari Ker=C3=A4ne=
n <ari.keranen@ericsson.com<=
/a>> wrote:
I marked set of chan=
ges in the P38 with "for IETF 99 session":

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files=




I believe these changes in particular would benefit from few extra pair of =
eyes to see that we did not cause unintentional side effects with these cha=
nges.



In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for "Need to take=
 off-line?" comment).





Cheers,

Ari



> On 17 Jul 2017, at 15.13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> wro=
te:

>

> Hi all,

>

> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve r=
emaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the mee=
ting.

>

> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in the=
 Github:

> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls

> (note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)

>

> Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the meeti=
ng. Issues that seem to require more review / hammering for consensus, we&#=
39;ll take during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes that have a ri=
sk of unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, it would be impo=
rtant to have people joining who are familiar with the specification and ca=
n comment whether the proposed fixes cause unintentional side effects.

>

> Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but Flem=
ming Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you Flemmi=
ng!

>

>

> Cheers,

> Ari

> _______________________________________________

> Ice mailing list

> Ice@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice






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Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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From nobody Thu Jul 20 03:28:46 2017
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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" 
In-Reply-To: <8641BF7F-BF00-4944-88D6-BC8426AFEB79@ericsson.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:28:39 +0200
Cc: ICE WG , Flemming Andreasen , Peter Thatcher 
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To: =?utf-8?Q?Ari_Ker=C3=A4nen?= 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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I really appreciate the work Thatcher and others put in to trying to =
clarify this but the mix of editorial and technical stuff all together =
in here make it very hard to review. I tired to review it and no idea if =
I agree with it or not. I know that's not really useful but that's where =
i am.=20


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen =
 wrote:
>=20
> I marked set of changes in the P38 with "for IETF 99 session":
> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files
>=20
> I believe these changes in particular would benefit from few extra =
pair of eyes to see that we did not cause unintentional side effects =
with these changes.=20
>=20
> In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for "Need to take =
off-line?" comment).
>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> Ari
>=20
>> On 17 Jul 2017, at 15.13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen  =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve =
remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the =
meeting.
>>=20
>> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in =
the Github:
>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
>> (note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)
>>=20
>> Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the =
meeting. Issues that seem to require more review / hammering for =
consensus, we'll take during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes =
that have a risk of unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, =
it would be important to have people joining who are familiar with the =
specification and can comment whether the proposed fixes cause =
unintentional side effects.=20
>>=20
>> Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but =
Flemming Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you =
Flemming!
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Ari
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


From nobody Thu Jul 20 03:29:54 2017
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From: Cullen Jennings 
In-Reply-To: <3de21874-e64c-d280-8beb-ab422ee33d94@stpeter.im>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:29:47 +0200
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" 
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To: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] change to trickle section 8.2
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I think this change is needed and I like the text. 

> On Jul 17, 2017, at 5:27 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
> 
> Based on the review from Nils, in version -13 of the trickle I-D we made
> one substantive change to the first paragraph of section 8.2, including
> addition of a MUST-level requirement.
> 
> OLD
> 
>   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for a specific
>   media stream, the agent will generate an "end-of-candidates"
>   indication for that stream and convey it to the remote agent via the
>   signaling channel.  The exact form of the indication depends on the
>   application protocol.
> 
> NEW
> 
>   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for an ICE
>   session associated with a specific media stream, the agent will
>   generate an "end-of-candidates" indication for that session and
>   convey it to the remote agent via the signaling channel.  Although
>   the exact form of the indication depends on the application protocol,
>   the indication MUST specify the generation (ufrag/pwd combination) so
>   that an agent can correlate the end-of-candidates indication with a
>   particular ICE session.
> 
> I didn't want this to slip by without notice. Please comment on the list
> if you have concerns.
> 
> Peter
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


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From: Nils Ohlmeier 
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Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Ari_Ker=C3=A4nen?= , Flemming Andreasen , Peter Thatcher , ICE WG 
To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" 
References: <5238F43A-CA05-4BE3-ACA6-A8A58DDF21BC@ericsson.com> <8641BF7F-BF00-4944-88D6-BC8426AFEB79@ericsson.com> <90711D4D-1608-42EF-A46D-970998305901@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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I must admit that I agree with that as well. I started reviewing it, but =
gave up at some point, because the mix of minor editorial changes with =
bigger deletion of potentially important paragraphs was getting to =
complicated.

Best
  Nils

> On Jul 20, 2017, at 12:28, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I really appreciate the work Thatcher and others put in to trying to =
clarify this but the mix of editorial and technical stuff all together =
in here make it very hard to review. I tired to review it and no idea if =
I agree with it or not. I know that's not really useful but that's where =
i am.
>=20
>=20
>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> I marked set of changes in the P38 with "for IETF 99 session":
>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files
>>=20
>> I believe these changes in particular would benefit from few extra =
pair of eyes to see that we did not cause unintentional side effects =
with these changes.
>>=20
>> In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for "Need to =
take off-line?" comment).
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Ari
>>=20
>>> On 17 Jul 2017, at 15.13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen =
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve =
remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the =
meeting.
>>>=20
>>> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in =
the Github:
>>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
>>> (note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)
>>>=20
>>> Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the =
meeting. Issues that seem to require more review / hammering for =
consensus, we'll take during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes =
that have a risk of unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, =
it would be important to have people joining who are familiar with the =
specification and can comment whether the proposed fixes cause =
unintentional side effects.
>>>=20
>>> Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but =
Flemming Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you =
Flemming!
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ari
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ice mailing list
>>> Ice@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


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Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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From: Nils Ohlmeier 
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:35:16 +0200
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Cc: "ice@ietf.org" 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] change to trickle section 8.2
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Looks good to me.

  Nils

> On Jul 17, 2017, at 17:27, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
> 
> Based on the review from Nils, in version -13 of the trickle I-D we made
> one substantive change to the first paragraph of section 8.2, including
> addition of a MUST-level requirement.
> 
> OLD
> 
>   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for a specific
>   media stream, the agent will generate an "end-of-candidates"
>   indication for that stream and convey it to the remote agent via the
>   signaling channel.  The exact form of the indication depends on the
>   application protocol.
> 
> NEW
> 
>   Once all candidate gathering is completed or expires for an ICE
>   session associated with a specific media stream, the agent will
>   generate an "end-of-candidates" indication for that session and
>   convey it to the remote agent via the signaling channel.  Although
>   the exact form of the indication depends on the application protocol,
>   the indication MUST specify the generation (ufrag/pwd combination) so
>   that an agent can correlate the end-of-candidates indication with a
>   particular ICE session.
> 
> I didn't want this to slip by without notice. Please comment on the list
> if you have concerns.
> 
> Peter
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


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From: Bernard Aboba 
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To: ice@ietf.org
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Subject: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of whether RFC5245bis
should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs (proposed by
Peter), or whether it is possible to switch from one interface to another
(Cullen).  While these capabilities are desirable, attempting to add them
to RFC 5245bis without negotiation has the potential to break
interoperability with existing RFC 5245 implementations.

In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have very
different interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones
that did not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs after
nomination. These implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in
previous product releases) cannot be assumed to change their behavior after
RFC 5245bis is published.  This raises the possibility that that
interoperability could be impacted.

Since in practice the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are
most likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle
ICE, my recommendation is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trickle
ICE capability.   Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications
relating to candidate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation.

This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential
interoperability issues.  For example, if text on candidate-pair switching
is to be added to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the text
could say that support for these behaviors can only be assumed if they are
explicitly negotiated. The Trickle-ICE document could then create normative
requirements for support of the new behaviors by stating that support for
them is mandatory when supporting full-Trickle.

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During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of w=
hether RFC5245bis should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs =
(proposed by Peter), or whether it is possible to switch from one interface=
 to another (Cullen).=C2=A0 While these capabilities are desirable, attempt=
ing to add them to RFC 5245bis without negotiation has the potential to bre=
ak interoperability with existing RFC 5245 implementations.

<=
div>In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have v=
ery different interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones=
 that did not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs afte=
r nomination. These implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in pre=
vious product releases) cannot be assumed to change their behavior after RF=
C 5245bis is published.=C2=A0 This raises the possibility that that interop=
erability could be impacted.=C2=A0

Since in practi=
ce the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are most likely to be =
supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle ICE, my recommendati=
on is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trickle ICE capability. =C2=
=A0 Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications relating to can=
didate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation. =C2=A0
<=
br>
This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential=
 interoperability issues.=C2=A0 For example, if text on candidate-pair swit=
ching is to be added to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the tex=
t could say that support for these behaviors can only be assumed if they ar=
e explicitly negotiated. The Trickle-ICE document could then create normati=
ve requirements for support of the new behaviors by stating that support fo=
r them is mandatory when supporting full-Trickle.=C2=A0




--94eb2c191efc6d5c560554beccf7--


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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= , Nils Ohlmeier , Cullen Jennings 
References: <5238F43A-CA05-4BE3-ACA6-A8A58DDF21BC@ericsson.com> <8641BF7F-BF00-4944-88D6-BC8426AFEB79@ericsson.com> <90711D4D-1608-42EF-A46D-970998305901@cisco.com> <8727336B-8A23-40A5-BCCC-07041BCE0D58@mozilla.com> 
Cc: Flemming Andreasen , Peter Thatcher , ICE WG 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:24:32 -0600
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>From a process standpoint, this seems rather messy (I had the same
experience that Cullen and Nils did). Perhaps the authors can bring the
substantive issues to the list (one issue per thread, with clear
demarcation of old and new text) so that we can have a clearer view of
proposed changes? Of course, we're going to have a revised I-D at some
point and that will help, but in the meantime it's hard to follow the
conversation.

Peter

On 7/20/17 5:02 AM, Ari Keränen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Everything in PR38 should be editorial (i.e., not changing behaviour). But I agree it's a lot of changes. I reviewed them all and marked with "IETF 99" the ones that were bit more substantial, about 20 of them. If you focus on those, you should be fine.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Ari
> 
>> On 20 Jul 2017, at 12.30, Nils Ohlmeier  wrote:
>>
>> I must admit that I agree with that as well. I started reviewing it, but gave up at some point, because the mix of minor editorial changes with bigger deletion of potentially important paragraphs was getting to complicated.
>>
>> Best
>>  Nils
>>
>>> On Jul 20, 2017, at 12:28, Cullen Jennings (fluffy)  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I really appreciate the work Thatcher and others put in to trying to clarify this but the mix of editorial and technical stuff all together in here make it very hard to review. I tired to review it and no idea if I agree with it or not. I know that's not really useful but that's where i am.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Ari Keränen  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I marked set of changes in the P38 with "for IETF 99 session":
>>>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files
>>>>
>>>> I believe these changes in particular would benefit from few extra pair of eyes to see that we did not cause unintentional side effects with these changes.
>>>>
>>>> In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for "Need to take off-line?" comment).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ari
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Jul 2017, at 15.13, Ari Keränen  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs in the Github:
>>>>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
>>>>> (note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)
>>>>>
>>>>> Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the meeting. Issues that seem to require more review / hammering for consensus, we'll take during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes that have a risk of unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, it would be important to have people joining who are familiar with the specification and can comment whether the proposed fixes cause unintentional side effects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but Flemming Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you Flemming!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ari


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From: Nils Ohlmeier 
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To: Peter Saint-Andre 
References: <5238F43A-CA05-4BE3-ACA6-A8A58DDF21BC@ericsson.com> <8641BF7F-BF00-4944-88D6-BC8426AFEB79@ericsson.com> <90711D4D-1608-42EF-A46D-970998305901@cisco.com> <8727336B-8A23-40A5-BCCC-07041BCE0D58@mozilla.com>  
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Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE session at Prague IETF
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Peter,

We did today discuss during the ICE meeting all 20 items which Ari =
marked in the GitHub PR with =E2=80=9Cietf 99=E2=80=9D (if you use =
Firefox to search in the side by side view of the PR you should be able =
find them).
I don=E2=80=99t see the recordings yet on the IETF 99 page.
But I think Ari made notes in the PR and I just dumped my meeting notes =
into the Etherpad here =
https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-99-ice?useMonospaceFont=3Dtru=
e =
 so you can get an idea what we decided.

I think it would have helped if the PR would have had a git commit per =
change.
That would have allowed to look at each change separately and (after =
rebasing) only merge the one which got accepted without changes.

  Nils

> On Jul 21, 2017, at 00:24, Peter Saint-Andre  =
wrote:
>=20
> =46rom a process standpoint, this seems rather messy (I had the same
> experience that Cullen and Nils did). Perhaps the authors can bring =
the
> substantive issues to the list (one issue per thread, with clear
> demarcation of old and new text) so that we can have a clearer view of
> proposed changes? Of course, we're going to have a revised I-D at some
> point and that will help, but in the meantime it's hard to follow the
> conversation.
>=20
> Peter
>=20
> On 7/20/17 5:02 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> Everything in PR38 should be editorial (i.e., not changing =
behaviour). But I agree it's a lot of changes. I reviewed them all and =
marked with "IETF 99" the ones that were bit more substantial, about 20 =
of them. If you focus on those, you should be fine.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Ari
>>=20
>>> On 20 Jul 2017, at 12.30, Nils Ohlmeier  =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I must admit that I agree with that as well. I started reviewing it, =
but gave up at some point, because the mix of minor editorial changes =
with bigger deletion of potentially important paragraphs was getting to =
complicated.
>>>=20
>>> Best
>>> Nils
>>>=20
>>>> On Jul 20, 2017, at 12:28, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) =
 wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I really appreciate the work Thatcher and others put in to trying =
to clarify this but the mix of editorial and technical stuff all =
together in here make it very hard to review. I tired to review it and =
no idea if I agree with it or not. I know that's not really useful but =
that's where i am.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 5:46 PM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen =
 wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I marked set of changes in the P38 with "for IETF 99 session":
>>>>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I believe these changes in particular would benefit from few extra =
pair of eyes to see that we did not cause unintentional side effects =
with these changes.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for "Need to =
take off-line?" comment).
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ari
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 17 Jul 2017, at 15.13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen =
 wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Our goal for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to =
resolve remaining comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC =
after the meeting.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The plan is to get consensus on the changes proposed in the PRs =
in the Github:
>>>>>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
>>>>>> (note that PR #38 is a subset of #35)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Would be great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the =
meeting. Issues that seem to require more review / hammering for =
consensus, we'll take during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes =
that have a risk of unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, =
it would be important to have people joining who are familiar with the =
specification and can comment whether the proposed fixes cause =
unintentional side effects.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Peter Thatcher will unfortunately not be in Prague in person, but =
Flemming Andreasen volunteered to co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you =
Flemming!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ari
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_76967946-5288-48EB-87FD-757AEFD35FDE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Peter,

We =
did today discuss during the ICE meeting all 20 items which Ari marked =
in the GitHub PR with =E2=80=9Cietf 99=E2=80=9D (if you use Firefox to =
search in the side by side view of the PR you should be able find =
them).
I don=E2=80=99t see the recordings yet on =
the IETF 99 page.
But I think Ari made notes in the =
PR and I just dumped my meeting notes into the Etherpad here https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-99-ice?useMonospac=
eFont=3Dtrue so you can get an idea what we decided.

I think it would have =
helped if the PR would have had a git commit per change.
That would have allowed to look at each change separately and =
(after rebasing) only merge the one which got accepted without =
changes.

  =
Nils

On Jul 21, 2017, at 00:24, Peter Saint-Andre =
<stpeter@stpeter.im> wrote:

=46rom=
 a process standpoint, this seems rather messy (I had the same
experience that Cullen and Nils did). Perhaps the authors can =
bring the
substantive issues to the list (one issue per =
thread, with clear
demarcation of old and new text) so =
that we can have a clearer view of
proposed changes? Of =
course, we're going to have a revised I-D at some
point =
and that will help, but in the meantime it's hard to follow the
conversation.

Peter

On 7/20/17 5:02 AM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen wrote:
Hi,

Everything in PR38 should be editorial (i.e., not changing =
behaviour). But I agree it's a lot of changes. I reviewed them all and =
marked with "IETF 99" the ones that were bit more substantial, about 20 =
of them. If you focus on those, you should be fine.


Cheers,
Ari

On 20 Jul 2017, at =
12.30, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:

I must admit that I agree with that as well. I started =
reviewing it, but gave up at some point, because the mix of minor =
editorial changes with bigger deletion of potentially important =
paragraphs was getting to complicated.

Best
 Nils

On Jul 20, 2017, at =
12:28, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:


I really appreciate the work Thatcher and =
others put in to trying to clarify this but the mix of editorial and =
technical stuff all together in here make it very hard to review. I =
tired to review it and no idea if I agree with it or not. I know that's =
not really useful but that's where i am.


On Jul 19, 2017, at 5:46 =
PM, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> wrote:

I marked set of changes in the P38 with "for IETF 99 =
session":
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/38/files

I believe these changes in particular would =
benefit from few extra pair of eyes to see that we did not cause =
unintentional side effects with these changes.

In particular one of them is quite substantial (look for =
"Need to take off-line?" comment).


Cheers,
Ari

On 17 Jul 2017, at =
15.13, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen <ari.keranen@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi all,

Our goal =
for the ICE WG session in Prague IETF meeting is to resolve remaining =
comments on ICE-bis to extent that we can start WGLC after the =
meeting.

The plan is to get consensus on =
the changes proposed in the PRs in the Github:
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pulls
(note =
that PR #38 is a subset of #35)

Would be =
great if you can have a look and comment PRs before the meeting. Issues =
that seem to require more review / hammering for consensus, we'll take =
during the f2f meeting. Including editorial fixes that have a risk of =
unintentionally changing behavior. For this session, it would be =
important to have people joining who are familiar with the specification =
and can comment whether the proposed fixes cause unintentional side =
effects.

Peter Thatcher will unfortunately =
not be in Prague in person, but Flemming Andreasen volunteered to =
co-chair the ICE WG session. Thank you Flemming!


Cheers,
Ari


=

--Apple-Mail=_76967946-5288-48EB-87FD-757AEFD35FDE--

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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Bernard Aboba , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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To: "ice@ietf.org" 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 08:48:39 -0600
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Subject: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
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Apparently it was decided at IETF 99 to remove the terms "active check
list" and "frozen check list" from the core spec. These terms are used
in the trickle spec. For example:

###

A Trickle ICE agent initially considers all check lists to be frozen.
It then inspects the first check list and attempts to unfreeze all
candidate pairs it has received so far that belong to the first
component on the first media stream (i.e., the first media stream
that was reported to the ICE implementation from the using
application). If that first component of the first media stream does
not contain candidates for one or more of the currently known pair
foundations, and if candidate pairs already exist for that foundation
in one of the following components or media streams, then the agent
unfreezes the first of those candidate pairs.

###

The ICE specification [rfc5245bis], Section 5.1.4, requires that an
agent will terminate the timer for a triggered check in relation to
an active check list once the agent has exhausted all frozen pairs in
the check list. This will not work with Trickle ICE, because more
pairs will be added to the check list incrementally.

###

When a check list is set to Failed as described above, regular ICE
requires the agent to update all other check lists, placing one pair
from each check list into the Waiting state - effectively unfreezing
all remaining check lists. However, under Trickle ICE other check
lists might still be empty at this point (because candidates have not
yet been received), and following only the rules from regular ICE
would prevent the agent from unfreezing those check lists (because
the state of a check list depends on the state of the candidate pairs
in that check list, but there are none yet). Therefore a Trickle ICE
agent needs to monitor whether a check list is active or frozen
independently of the state of the candidate pairs in the check list
(since there might not be any pairs yet). With regard to empty check
lists, by default a Trickle ICE agent MAY consider an empty check
list to be either active or frozen. When a Trickle ICE agent
considers an empty check list to be frozen, during the candidate
checking process it SHOULD change the check list to active if
checking of another check list is completely finished (i.e., if every
pair in the other check list is either Successful or Failed), if
another check list has a valid candidate pair for all components, or
if it adds a candidate pair to the check list (because, in accordance
with Section 8.1.1, when inserting a new candidate pair into an empty
check list, the agent sets the pair to a state of Waiting).

###

If we decide to continue with this approach, we'll need to look more
closely at the text in the trickle spec and make the necessary wording
changes.

Peter


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
Thread-Index: AQHTBIv1FnorAdiCkEa0RCcMSD3UV6JjETlg
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 15:11:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
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Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input! Please see inline.

>Apparently it was decided at IETF 99 to remove the terms "active check lis=
t" and "frozen check list" from the core spec.=20
>These terms are used in the trickle spec. For example:
>
>###
>
>A Trickle ICE agent initially considers all check lists to be frozen.
>It then inspects the first check list and attempts to unfreeze all candida=
te pairs it has received so far that belong to=20
>the first component on the first media stream (i.e., the first media strea=
m that was reported to the ICE implementation=20
>from the using application). If that first component of the first media st=
ream does not contain candidates for one or more=20
>of the currently known pair foundations, and if candidate pairs already ex=
ist for that foundation in one of the following=20
>components or media streams, then the agent unfreezes the first of those c=
andidate pairs.

How would this change if we removed "frozen check list"?

We obviously would have to remove the term also from trickle, but would it =
affect the procedures?

###

>The ICE specification [rfc5245bis], Section 5.1.4, requires that an agent =
will terminate the timer for a triggered check=20
>in relation to an active check list once the agent has exhausted all froze=
n pairs in the check list. This will not work with=20
>Trickle ICE, because more pairs will be added to the check list incrementa=
lly.

Do you refer to bullet 4) in section 5.1.4.2?

It is true that the non-trickle agent will eventually cease checking the ch=
eck lists, but what does that have to do with the "active/frozen check list=
" terms?


###

>When a check list is set to Failed as described above, regular ICE require=
s the agent to update all other check lists, placing one pair from each che=
ck list into the Waiting >state - effectively unfreezing all remaining chec=
k lists. However, under Trickle ICE other check lists might still be empty =
at this point (because candidates have not yet been >received), and followi=
ng only the rules from regular ICE would prevent the agent from unfreezing =
those check lists (because the state of a check list depends on the state o=
f >the candidate pairs in that check list, but there are none yet). Therefo=
re a Trickle ICE agent needs to monitor whether a check list is active or f=
rozen independently of the >state of the candidate pairs in the check list =
(since there might not be any pairs yet). With regard to empty check lists,=
 by default a Trickle ICE agent MAY consider an empty >check list to be eit=
her active or frozen. When a Trickle ICE agent considers an empty check lis=
t to be frozen, during the candidate checking process it SHOULD change the =
>check list to active if checking of another check list is completely finis=
hed (i.e., if every pair in the other check list is either Successful or Fa=
iled), if another check list has a >valid candidate pair for all components=
, or if it adds a candidate pair to the check list (because, in accordance =
with Section 8.1.1, when inserting a new candidate pair into an >empty chec=
k list, the agent sets the pair to a state of Waiting).

Why would an agent need to consider an empty list active or frozen? Can't t=
he agent simply put the list in RUNNING state, even if it's empty, and when=
ever Ta triggers for that list the agent will check whether there are any c=
andidates, and process them accordingly.

###

>If we decide to continue with this approach, we'll need to look more close=
ly at the text in the trickle spec and make the necessary wording changes.

Absolutely. But, based on your input, I don't identity any technical change=
s. Or have I missed them?

Regards,

Christer


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To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
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On 7/24/17 9:11 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> Thanks for your input! Please see inline.
> 
>> Apparently it was decided at IETF 99 to remove the terms "active
>> check list" and "frozen check list" from the core spec. These terms
>> are used in the trickle spec. For example:
>> 
>> ###
>> 
>> A Trickle ICE agent initially considers all check lists to be
>> frozen. It then inspects the first check list and attempts to
>> unfreeze all candidate pairs it has received so far that belong to
>>  the first component on the first media stream (i.e., the first
>> media stream that was reported to the ICE implementation from the
>> using application). If that first component of the first media
>> stream does not contain candidates for one or more of the currently
>> known pair foundations, and if candidate pairs already exist for
>> that foundation in one of the following components or media
>> streams, then the agent unfreezes the first of those candidate
>> pairs.
> 
> How would this change if we removed "frozen check list"?

We'd probably need to create a circumlocation such as "considers all
candidate pairs in all check lists to be frozen".

> We obviously would have to remove the term also from trickle, but
> would it affect the procedures?

I don't think so, just the terminology and text.

> ###
> 
>> The ICE specification [rfc5245bis], Section 5.1.4, requires that an
>> agent will terminate the timer for a triggered check in relation to
>> an active check list once the agent has exhausted all frozen pairs
>> in the check list. This will not work with Trickle ICE, because
>> more pairs will be added to the check list incrementally.
> 
> Do you refer to bullet 4) in section 5.1.4.2?
> 
> It is true that the non-trickle agent will eventually cease checking
> the check lists, but what does that have to do with the
> "active/frozen check list" terms?

Not much, I think. Later this week I will look at the text in detail.

> ###
> 
>> When a check list is set to Failed as described above, regular ICE
>> requires the agent to update all other check lists, placing one
>> pair from each check list into the Waiting >state - effectively
>> unfreezing all remaining check lists. However, under Trickle ICE
>> other check lists might still be empty at this point (because
>> candidates have not yet been >received), and following only the
>> rules from regular ICE would prevent the agent from unfreezing
>> those check lists (because the state of a check list depends on the
>> state of >the candidate pairs in that check list, but there are
>> none yet). Therefore a Trickle ICE agent needs to monitor whether a
>> check list is active or frozen independently of the >state of the
>> candidate pairs in the check list (since there might not be any
>> pairs yet). With regard to empty check lists, by default a Trickle
>> ICE agent MAY consider an empty >check list to be either active or
>> frozen. When a Trickle ICE agent considers an empty check list to
>> be frozen, during the candidate checking process it SHOULD change
>> the >check list to active if checking of another check list is
>> completely finished (i.e., if every pair in the other check list is
>> either Successful or Failed), if another check list has a >valid
>> candidate pair for all components, or if it adds a candidate pair
>> to the check list (because, in accordance with Section 8.1.1, when
>> inserting a new candidate pair into an >empty check list, the agent
>> sets the pair to a state of Waiting).
> 
> Why would an agent need to consider an empty list active or frozen?
> Can't the agent simply put the list in RUNNING state, even if it's
> empty, and whenever Ta triggers for that list the agent will check
> whether there are any candidates, and process them accordingly.

I will look at this later this week, as well.

> ###
> 
>> If we decide to continue with this approach, we'll need to look
>> more closely at the text in the trickle spec and make the necessary
>> wording changes.
> 
> Absolutely. But, based on your input, I don't identity any technical
> changes. Or have I missed them?

Agreed.

Peter


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From: Taylor Brandstetter 
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 16:19:03 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Saint-Andre 
Cc: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
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Trickle ICE doesn't need to use the "active"/"frozen" state any more. I
brought this up in my review of draft-08:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ice/eiAyekLr4aTvFoDzUGhK3gyIsmY

Also, the reference to section 5.1.4 is just slightly outdated; section
5.1.4 previously referred to the "active" state, and now it doesn't.

So I don't think we have a problem. I agree with Christer's points.

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Peter Saint-Andre 
wrote:

> On 7/24/17 9:11 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Thanks for your input! Please see inline.
> >
> >> Apparently it was decided at IETF 99 to remove the terms "active
> >> check list" and "frozen check list" from the core spec. These terms
> >> are used in the trickle spec. For example:
> >>
> >> ###
> >>
> >> A Trickle ICE agent initially considers all check lists to be
> >> frozen. It then inspects the first check list and attempts to
> >> unfreeze all candidate pairs it has received so far that belong to
> >>  the first component on the first media stream (i.e., the first
> >> media stream that was reported to the ICE implementation from the
> >> using application). If that first component of the first media
> >> stream does not contain candidates for one or more of the currently
> >> known pair foundations, and if candidate pairs already exist for
> >> that foundation in one of the following components or media
> >> streams, then the agent unfreezes the first of those candidate
> >> pairs.
> >
> > How would this change if we removed "frozen check list"?
>
> We'd probably need to create a circumlocation such as "considers all
> candidate pairs in all check lists to be frozen".
>
> > We obviously would have to remove the term also from trickle, but
> > would it affect the procedures?
>
> I don't think so, just the terminology and text.
>
> > ###
> >
> >> The ICE specification [rfc5245bis], Section 5.1.4, requires that an
> >> agent will terminate the timer for a triggered check in relation to
> >> an active check list once the agent has exhausted all frozen pairs
> >> in the check list. This will not work with Trickle ICE, because
> >> more pairs will be added to the check list incrementally.
> >
> > Do you refer to bullet 4) in section 5.1.4.2?
> >
> > It is true that the non-trickle agent will eventually cease checking
> > the check lists, but what does that have to do with the
> > "active/frozen check list" terms?
>
> Not much, I think. Later this week I will look at the text in detail.
>
> > ###
> >
> >> When a check list is set to Failed as described above, regular ICE
> >> requires the agent to update all other check lists, placing one
> >> pair from each check list into the Waiting >state - effectively
> >> unfreezing all remaining check lists. However, under Trickle ICE
> >> other check lists might still be empty at this point (because
> >> candidates have not yet been >received), and following only the
> >> rules from regular ICE would prevent the agent from unfreezing
> >> those check lists (because the state of a check list depends on the
> >> state of >the candidate pairs in that check list, but there are
> >> none yet). Therefore a Trickle ICE agent needs to monitor whether a
> >> check list is active or frozen independently of the >state of the
> >> candidate pairs in the check list (since there might not be any
> >> pairs yet). With regard to empty check lists, by default a Trickle
> >> ICE agent MAY consider an empty >check list to be either active or
> >> frozen. When a Trickle ICE agent considers an empty check list to
> >> be frozen, during the candidate checking process it SHOULD change
> >> the >check list to active if checking of another check list is
> >> completely finished (i.e., if every pair in the other check list is
> >> either Successful or Failed), if another check list has a >valid
> >> candidate pair for all components, or if it adds a candidate pair
> >> to the check list (because, in accordance with Section 8.1.1, when
> >> inserting a new candidate pair into an >empty check list, the agent
> >> sets the pair to a state of Waiting).
> >
> > Why would an agent need to consider an empty list active or frozen?
> > Can't the agent simply put the list in RUNNING state, even if it's
> > empty, and whenever Ta triggers for that list the agent will check
> > whether there are any candidates, and process them accordingly.
>
> I will look at this later this week, as well.
>
> > ###
> >
> >> If we decide to continue with this approach, we'll need to look
> >> more closely at the text in the trickle spec and make the necessary
> >> wording changes.
> >
> > Absolutely. But, based on your input, I don't identity any technical
> > changes. Or have I missed them?
>
> Agreed.
>
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>

--001a11c00fd8d620e30555187088
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Trickle ICE doesn't need to use the "active"=
/"frozen" state any more. I brought this up in my review of draft=
-08:=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ice/eiAyekLr4aTvFoDz=
UGhK3gyIsmY

Also, the reference to section 5.1.4 is =
just slightly outdated; section 5.1.4 previously referred to the "acti=
ve" state, and now it doesn't.

So I don&#=
39;t think we have a problem. I agree with Christer's points.

On Mon, Jul 24,=
 2017 at 9:27 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> wr=
ote:
On 7/24/17 9:11 AM,=
 Christer Holmberg wrote:

> Hi Peter,

>

> Thanks for your input! Please see inline.

>

>> Apparently it was decided at IETF 99 to remove the terms "act=
ive

>> check list" and "frozen check list" from the core s=
pec. These terms

>> are used in the trickle spec. For example:

>>

>> ###

>>

>> A Trickle ICE agent initially considers all check lists to be

>> frozen. It then inspects the first check list and attempts to

>> unfreeze all candidate pairs it has received so far that belong to=


>>=C2=A0 the first component on the first media stream (i.e., the fir=
st

>> media stream that was reported to the ICE implementation from the<=
br>
>> using application). If that first component of the first media

>> stream does not contain candidates for one or more of the currentl=
y

>> known pair foundations, and if candidate pairs already exist for
>> that foundation in one of the following components or media

>> streams, then the agent unfreezes the first of those candidate

>> pairs.

>

> How would this change if we removed "frozen check list"?



We'd probably need to create a circumlocation such as "cons=
iders all

candidate pairs in all check lists to be frozen".



> We obviously would have to remove the term also from trickle, but

> would it affect the procedures?



I don't think so, just the terminology and text.



> ###

>

>> The ICE specification [rfc5245bis], Section 5.1.4, requires that a=
n

>> agent will terminate the timer for a triggered check in relation t=
o

>> an active check list once the agent has exhausted all frozen pairs=


>> in the check list. This will not work with Trickle ICE, because
>> more pairs will be added to the check list incrementally.

>

> Do you refer to bullet 4) in section 5.1.4.2?

>

> It is true that the non-trickle agent will eventually cease checking
> the check lists, but what does that have to do with the

> "active/frozen check list" terms?



Not much, I think. Later this week I will look at the text in detail=
.




> ###

>

>> When a check list is set to Failed as described above, regular ICE=


>> requires the agent to update all other check lists, placing one
>> pair from each check list into the Waiting >state - effectively=


>> unfreezing all remaining check lists. However, under Trickle ICE
>> other check lists might still be empty at this point (because

>> candidates have not yet been >received), and following only the=


>> rules from regular ICE would prevent the agent from unfreezing

>> those check lists (because the state of a check list depends on th=
e

>> state of >the candidate pairs in that check list, but there are=


>> none yet). Therefore a Trickle ICE agent needs to monitor whether =
a

>> check list is active or frozen independently of the >state of t=
he

>> candidate pairs in the check list (since there might not be any
>> pairs yet). With regard to empty check lists, by default a Trickle=


>> ICE agent MAY consider an empty >check list to be either active=
 or

>> frozen. When a Trickle ICE agent considers an empty check list to<=
br>
>> be frozen, during the candidate checking process it SHOULD change<=
br>
>> the >check list to active if checking of another check list is<=
br>
>> completely finished (i.e., if every pair in the other check list i=
s

>> either Successful or Failed), if another check list has a >vali=
d

>> candidate pair for all components, or if it adds a candidate pair<=
br>
>> to the check list (because, in accordance with Section 8.1.1, when=


>> inserting a new candidate pair into an >empty check list, the a=
gent

>> sets the pair to a state of Waiting).

>

> Why would an agent need to consider an empty list active or frozen?
> Can't the agent simply put the list in RUNNING state, even if it&#=
39;s

> empty, and whenever Ta triggers for that list the agent will check

> whether there are any candidates, and process them accordingly.




I will look at this later this week, as well.



> ###

>

>> If we decide to continue with this approach, we'll need to loo=
k

>> more closely at the text in the trickle spec and make the necessar=
y

>> wording changes.

>

> Absolutely. But, based on your input, I don't identity any technic=
al

> changes. Or have I missed them?



Agreed.



Peter




_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice





--001a11c00fd8d620e30555187088--


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References:  <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC942F3@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>
From: Bernard Aboba 
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 16:20:53 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045ea5ce8dc52405551878d8"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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--f403045ea5ce8dc52405551878d8
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Christer said:


"Support of 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D IC=
E option."


[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair:


   Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in the VALID
   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK LIST is set to
   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending and
   receiving media for that component.


Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.g.
unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the "ice2" ICE option
doesn't address potential interoperability issues resulting from different
resource release behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support
for aggressive nomination):


   NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this specification
   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245
) might nominate more
   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggressive
   nomination in RFC 5245 .  The
usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.


Christer also said:


"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might
maintain consent on pairs currently not used for media, in order to be able
to re-nominate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires.
However, RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."


[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:


   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245
].  An
   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
   enters the Succeeded ICE state.


Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send to

multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,

there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant

consent for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis

Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke

consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the

selected pair.


On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Bernard,
>
>
>
> Support of 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D I=
CE option.
>
>
>
> Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might
> maintain consent on pairs currently not used for media, in order to be ab=
le
> to re-nominate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires.
> However, RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Christer
>
>
>
> *From:* Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Bernard Aboba
> *Sent:* 20 July 2017 14:22
> *To:* ice@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bi=
s
>
>
>
> During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of whether
> RFC5245bis should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs
> (proposed by Peter), or whether it is possible to switch from one interfa=
ce
> to another (Cullen).  While these capabilities are desirable, attempting =
to
> add them to RFC 5245bis without negotiation has the potential to break
> interoperability with existing RFC 5245 implementations.
>
>
>
> In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have ver=
y
> different interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones
> that did not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs aft=
er
> nomination. These implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in
> previous product releases) cannot be assumed to change their behavior aft=
er
> RFC 5245bis is published.  This raises the possibility that that
> interoperability could be impacted.
>
>
>
> Since in practice the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are
> most likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle
> ICE, my recommendation is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trick=
le
> ICE capability.   Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications
> relating to candidate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation.
>
>
>
> This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential
> interoperability issues.  For example, if text on candidate-pair switchin=
g
> is to be added to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the text
> could say that support for these behaviors can only be assumed if they ar=
e
> explicitly negotiated. The Trickle-ICE document could then create normati=
ve
> requirements for support of the new behaviors by stating that support for
> them is mandatory when supporting full-Trickle.
>
>
>
>
>

--f403045ea5ce8dc52405551878d8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Christer said:=C2=A0<=
/span>

"Support of=
 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D ICE option.&q=
uot;

[BA=
] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair:=C2=
=A0
   Eventuall=
y, there will be only a single nominated pair in the VALID
   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK LIST is set to
   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending and
   receiving media for that component.

Based on that text, an implementation might =
still release resources (e.g. unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Give=
n this, the=C2=A0"ice2" ICE option doesn't add=
ress potential interoperability issues resulting from different resource re=
lease behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support for aggres=
sive nomination):=C2=A0

   NOTE: =
A controlling agent that does not support this specification
   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nominate more
   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggressive
   nomination in RFC 5245.  The usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.

Christer also said:=C2=A0

"Also, my understanding was that endpoints s=
upporting RFC 7675 might maintain consent on pairs currently not used for m=
edia, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for the currently =
nominated pair expires. However, RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything =
about that."

[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:=C2=A0

   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245].  An
   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
   enters the Succeeded ICE state.
=

Given this, an RFC 5245bis impl=
ementation might request consent to send to
multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,=

there is nothing in RFC 7675 that r=
equires the responder to grant
conse=
nt for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might we=
ll revoke
consent on local candidate=
s other than the local candidate in the
selected pair.  

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:











Hi Bernard,


=C2=A0


Support of 5245bis is also negotiated=
, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D ICE option.


=C2=A0


Also, my understanding was that endpo=
ints supporting RFC 7675 might maintain consent on pairs currently not used=
 for media, in order
 to be able to re-nominate in case consent for the currently nominated pair=
 expires. However, RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that.=



=C2=A0


Regards,


=C2=A0


Christer


<=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c=
olor:#1f497d">=C2=A0


From: =
Ice [mailto:ice-b=
ounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba

Sent: 20 July 2017 14:22

To: ice@ietf.org

Subject: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 524=
5bis


=C2=A0




During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussio=
n of whether RFC5245bis should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate =
pairs (proposed by Peter), or whether it is possible to switch from one int=
erface to another (Cullen).=C2=A0 While
 these capabilities are desirable, attempting to add them to RFC 5245bis wi=
thout negotiation has the potential to break interoperability with existing=
 RFC 5245 implementations.




=C2=A0






In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 imp=
lementations have very different interpretations. For example, some impleme=
ntations (e.g. ones that did not support aggressive) discard non-selected c=
andidate pairs after nomination. These
 implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in previous product relea=
ses) cannot be assumed to change their behavior after RFC 5245bis is publis=
hed.=C2=A0 This raises the possibility that that interoperability could be =
impacted.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






Since in practice the desired candidate pair switchi=
ng capabilities are most likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations s=
upporting Trickle ICE, my recommendation is to think of candidate pair swit=
ching as a Trickle ICE capability.
 =C2=A0 Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications relating to=
 candidate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation. =C2=A0<=
u>






=C2=A0






This provides a potential way forward that bypasses =
potential interoperability issues.=C2=A0 For example, if text on candidate-=
pair switching is to be added to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) the=
n the text could say that support for these
 behaviors can only be assumed if they are explicitly negotiated. The Trick=
le-ICE document could then create normative requirements for support of the=
 new behaviors by stating that support for them is mandatory when supportin=
g full-Trickle.=C2=A0






=C2=A0






=C2=A0














--f403045ea5ce8dc52405551878d8--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
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Subject: Re: [Ice] active / frozen check lists
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Hi,

>>> Apparently it was decided at IETF 99 to remove the terms "active=20
>>> check list" and "frozen check list" from the core spec. These terms=20
>>> are used in the trickle spec. For example:
=20
###
=20
>>> A Trickle ICE agent initially considers all check lists to be frozen.=20
>>> It then inspects the first check list and attempts to unfreeze all=20
>>> candidate pairs it has received so far that belong to  the first=20
>>> component on the first media stream (i.e., the first media stream=20
>>> that was reported to the ICE implementation from the using=20
>>> application). If that first component of the first media stream does=20
>>> not contain candidates for one or more of the currently known pair=20
>>> foundations, and if candidate pairs already exist for that foundation=20
>>> in one of the following components or media streams, then the agent=20
>>> unfreezes the first of those candidate pairs.
>>=20
>> How would this change if we removed "frozen check list"?
>
> We'd probably need to create a circumlocation such as "considers all cand=
idate pairs in all check lists to be frozen".

5245bis already says that all pairs are initially set to frozen. I don't th=
ink you need to re-define it in trickle.

(We'll deal with the rest, if needed, once you've had time to look at it)

Regards,

Christer


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Bernard Aboba 
CC: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
Thread-Index: AQHTAVLWZKFTuK8SBEu+L6K9B+u4LqJenhrQgATktoCAACH0gA==
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 23:33:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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From: Bernard Aboba 
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 17:28:34 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114edc289a34210555196aee"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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Christer said:

"The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above
should be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change
after a pair has been selected.

But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to
clarify THAT instead :)"

[BA] Currently, use of the "ice2" ICE option forestalls use of aggressive
nomination (e.g. setting the nominated flag on more than one pair).  Since
only the selected pair can be used to send media, that would seem to rule
out changing the pair used for media after a pair has been selected:

   Once a candidate pair has been selected
   only that candidate pair (referred to as selected pair) is used for
   sending media.


What about changing the pair used for media prior to selection?  On this
point, the text seems less clear than it could be.

Prior to nomination, the specification allows the sending of media on a
successful pair:

   o  Once there is at least one nominated pair in the VALID LIST for
      every component of at least one media stream and the state of the
      CHECK LIST is Running:


...

      *  The agent MUST continue to respond to any checks it may still
         receive for that media stream, and MUST perform triggered
         checks if required by the processing of Section 6.3
.

      *  The agent MAY begin transmitting media for this media stream as

         described in Section 11.1
.

However, the specification is not clear enough about the receiving side;
while it recommends that implementations be prepared to receive prior to
nomination, it does not require this. From Section 11.2:

   ICE implementations SHOULD by default be
   prepared to receive media on any of the candidates provided in the
   most recent candidate exchange with the peer.


What happens if an implementation is NOT prepared to receive media?

In WebRTC, an implementation cannot send without consent, which

suggests that perhaps an unwilling receiver could use consent to

influence the potential sender.


However, the specification does not even reference RFC 7675,

so it is left unclear about how this is to be done.

For example, a receiver might not reply to a consent

request if the inability to receive is temporary ("I'm not ready yet"),

but that might cause consent to time out prior to nomination and

might even influence pair selection inappropriately.


Another choice might be to revoke consent (which would

invalidate the pair).  But that's pretty drastic unless the

pair is truly unacceptable.
















>[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair:
>
>   Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in the VALID
>   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK LIST is set to
>   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending and
>   receiving media for that component.
>
>Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.g.
unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the "ice2" ICE option
doesn't address >potential interoperability issues resulting from different
resource release behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support
for aggressive nomination):

The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above
should be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change
after a pair has been selected.

But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to
clarify THAT instead :)

>   NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this specification
>   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nominate more
>   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggressive
>   nomination in RFC 5245.  The usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
>   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
>   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.
>
>Christer also said:
>
>"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might
maintain consent on pairs currently not
>used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for the
currently nominated pair expires. However,
>RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."
>
>[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:
>
>   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245].  An
>   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
>   enters the Succeeded ICE state.
>
>Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send to
>multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,
>there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant
>consent for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
>Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke
>consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the
>selected pair.

Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple
candidates after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there
(unless I've understood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so would
be possible re-nomination.

Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do need to
make it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.

Regards,

Christer

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi
> ,
> >[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair=
:
> >
> >   Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in the VALID
> >   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK LIST is set to
> >   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending and
> >   receiving media for that component.
> >
> >Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.g=
.
> unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the "ice2" ICE optio=
n
> doesn't address >potential interoperability issues resulting from differe=
nt
> resource release behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of suppo=
rt
> for aggressive nomination):
>
> The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above
> should be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change
> after a pair has been selected.
>
> But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to
> clarify THAT instead :)
>
> >   NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this specification
> >   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nominate more
> >   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggressive
> >   nomination in RFC 5245.  The usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
> >   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
> >   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.
> >
> >Christer also said:
> >
> >"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might
> maintain consent on pairs currently not
> >used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for
> the currently nominated pair expires. However,
> >RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."
> >
> >[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:
> >
> >   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245].  An
> >   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
> >   enters the Succeeded ICE state.
> >
> >Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send =
to
> >multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,
> >there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant
> >consent for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
> >Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke
> >consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the
> >selected pair.
>
> Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple
> candidates after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there
> (unless I've understood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so woul=
d
> be possible re-nomination.
>
> Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do need
> to make it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <
> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
>
> Support of 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D I=
CE option.
>
> Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might
> maintain consent on pairs currently not used for media, in order to be ab=
le
> to re-nominate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires.
> However, RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: 20 July 2017 14:22
> To: ice@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
>
> During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of whether
> RFC5245bis should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs
> (proposed by Peter), or whether it is possible to switch from one interfa=
ce
> to another (Cullen).  While these capabilities are desirable, attempting =
to
> add them to RFC 5245bis without negotiation has the potential to break
> interoperability with existing RFC 5245 implementations.
>
> In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have ver=
y
> different interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones
> that did not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs aft=
er
> nomination. These implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in
> previous product releases) cannot be assumed to change their behavior aft=
er
> RFC 5245bis is published.  This raises the possibility that that
> interoperability could be impacted.
>
> Since in practice the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are
> most likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle
> ICE, my recommendation is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trick=
le
> ICE capability.   Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications
> relating to candidate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation.
>
> This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential
> interoperability issues.  For example, if text on candidate-pair switchin=
g
> is to be added to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the text
> could say that support for these behaviors can only be assumed if they ar=
e
> explicitly negotiated. The Trickle-ICE document could then create normati=
ve
> requirements for support of the new behaviors by stating that support for
> them is mandatory when supporting full-Trickle.
>
>
>
>

--001a114edc289a34210555196aee
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Christer said:=C2=A0

"The whole discussion began when I was given a comment =
that the text above should be modified, to clarify that the pair used for m=
edia can change after a pair has been selected.

B=
ut, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clarif=
y THAT instead :)"=C2=A0

[BA]=C2=A0=
Currently, use of the "ice2" ICE option forestalls use of ag=
gressive nomination (e.g. setting the nominated flag on more than one pair)=
.=C2=A0 Since only the selected pair can be used to send media, that would =
seem to rule out changing the pair used for media after a pair has been sel=
ected:=C2=A0

   Once a candidate pair has been selected
   only that candidate pair (referred to as selected pair) is used for
   sending media.

What about changing =
the pair used for media prior to selection?=C2=A0 On this point, the text s=
eems less clear than it could be.=C2=A0

Prior to nom=
ination, the specification allows t=
he sending of media on a successful pair:

=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Section 11.1.

However, the specification is not=
 clear enough about the receiving side; while it recommends that implementa=
tions be prepared to receive prior to nomination, it does not require this.=
=C2=A0From Section 11.2:=C2=A0

   ICE implementations SHOULD by default be
   prepared to receive media on any of the candidates provided in the
   most recent candidate exchange with the peer.

What happens if an=
 implementation is NOT prepared to receive media?
In WebRTC, an implementation cannot send without consent, whi=
ch 
suggests that perhaps an unwilli=
ng receiver could use consent to
inf=
luence the potential sender. 

However, the specification does not e=
ven reference RFC 7675,
so it is lef=
t unclear about how this is to be done.
For example, a receiver might not reply to a consent
request if the inability to receive is temporary (&quo=
t;I'm not ready yet"),
but =
that might cause consent to time out prior to nomination and
might even influence pair selection inappropriatel=
y.

Another choice might be to revoke consent (which would
invalidate the pair).  But that's pretty =
drastic unless the
pair is truly una=
cceptable. 




=












>[BA] RFC 52=
45bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair:=C2=A0
>=
;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pai=
r in the VALID
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0LIST for each component.=C2=A0 Once the =
state of the CHECK LIST is set to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Completed, that exact=
 pair is selected by ICE for sending and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0receiving medi=
a for that component.
>
>Based on that text, an implementation =
might still release resources (e.g. unused TURN candidates) post-nomination=
. Given this, the=C2=A0"ice2" ICE option doesn't address >=
potential interoperability issues resulting from different resource release=
 behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support for aggressive =
nomination):=C2=A0

The whole=
 discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above should be =
modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change after a pair h=
as been selected.

But, if the outcome is that the=
 pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clarify THAT instead :)

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this=
 specification
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(i.e. it is implemented according to RFC=
 5245) might nominate more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0than one candidate pair.=C2=
=A0 This was referred to as aggressive
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0nomination in RF=
C 5245.=C2=A0 The usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.
>
&=
gt;Christer also said:=C2=A0
>
>"Also, my understanding wa=
s that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might maintain consent on pairs curren=
tly not
>used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case c=
onsent for the currently nominated pair expires. However,
>RFC 7675 d=
oes not explicitly say anything about that."
>
>[BA] RFC 7=
675 Section 5 says:=C2=A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Initial consent to se=
nd traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245].=C2=A0 An
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0en=
dpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0enters the Succeeded ICE state.
>
>Given this, an RFC=
 5245bis implementation might request consent to send to
>multiple re=
mote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,
>there is no=
thing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant
>consent for t=
hat.=C2=A0 For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
>Section 7.1=
.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke
>consent on local c=
andidates other than the local candidate in the
>selected pair.
Sure - the responder is not manda=
ted to grant consent to multiple candidates after nomination. But, the opti=
on to do seems to be there (unless I've understood the RFC wrong), and =
the only reason to do so would be possible re-nomination.

Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, bu=
t we do need to make it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed =
or not.

Regards,

Christ=
er

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <c=
hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi

,

>[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a si=
ngle selected pair:=C2=A0

>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in =
the VALID

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0LIST for each component.=C2=A0 Once the state of the CHECK=
 LIST is set to

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending =
and

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0receiving media for that component.

>

>Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.=
g. unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the=C2=A0"ice2=
" ICE option doesn't address >potential interoperability issues=
 resulting from different resource release behaviors (although it does clea=
r indicate lack of support for aggressive nomination):=C2=A0



The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text =
above should be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can chang=
e after a pair has been selected.



But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clari=
fy THAT instead :)



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this speci=
fication

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nomin=
ate more

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0than one candidate pair.=C2=A0 This was referred to as agg=
ressive

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0nomination in RFC 5245.=C2=A0 The usage of the 'ice2&#=
39; ice option by

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such=


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.

>

>Christer also said:=C2=A0

>

>"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 mig=
ht maintain consent on pairs currently not

>used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for =
the currently nominated pair expires. However,

>RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."

>

>[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:=C2=A0

>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC=
5245].=C2=A0 An

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when th=
e pair

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0enters the Succeeded ICE state.

>

>Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send=
 to

>multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,

>there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant

>consent for that.=C2=A0 For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
>Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke

>consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the

>selected pair.



Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple ca=
ndidates after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there (unless =
I've understood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so would be p=
ossible re-nomination.



Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do nee=
d to make it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.



Regards,



Christer










On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> =
wrote:

Hi Bernard,

=C2=A0

Support of 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D ICE=
 option.

=C2=A0

Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might maintai=
n consent on pairs currently not used for media, in order to be able to re-=
nominate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires. However,=
 RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.=
org] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba

Sent: 20 July 2017 14:22

To: ice@ietf.org

Subject: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
=C2=A0

During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of whether RFC5245bis=
 should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs (proposed by Pete=
r), or whether it is possible to switch from one interface to another (Cull=
en).=C2=A0 While these capabilities are desirable, attempting to add them t=
o RFC 5245bis without negotiation has the potential to break interoperabili=
ty with existing RFC 5245 implementations.

=C2=A0

In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have very =
different interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones tha=
t did not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs after no=
mination. These implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in previou=
s product releases) cannot be assumed to change their behavior after RFC 52=
45bis is published.=C2=A0 This raises the possibility that that interoperab=
ility could be impacted.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Since in practice the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are mos=
t likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle ICE, =
my recommendation is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trickle ICE =
capability. =C2=A0 Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications =
relating to candidate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation. =C2=
=A0

=C2=A0

This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential interoperabil=
ity issues.=C2=A0 For example, if text on candidate-pair switching is to be=
 added to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the text could say th=
at support for these behaviors can only be assumed if they are explicitly n=
egotiated. The Trickle-ICE document could then create normative requirement=
s for support of the new behaviors by stating that support for them is mand=
atory when supporting full-Trickle.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0







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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Bernard Aboba 
CC: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Christer Holmberg , Bernard Aboba 
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Thread-Topic: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis - PROPOSAL
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis - PROPOSAL
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From: Bernard Aboba 
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In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B4CC9ED94@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 06:47:06 -0700
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To: Christer Holmberg 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis - PROPOSAL
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I believe that 1) was implied by removing agressive, but making it more clea=
r is fine.  2) is what is in the current draft.

With respect to 3) it is OK to leave sending a MAY but the ability to receiv=
e should be required, not just recommended, so that the sender can assume th=
is when "ice2" is indicated.

> On Jul 27, 2017, at 4:01 AM, Christer Holmberg  wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> Would anyone disagree with the following:
> =20
> 1)      explicitly indicating that re-nomination is *NOT* allowed without I=
CE restart; and
> 2)      once a pair has been selected, agents need to be able to send *AND=
* receive media using that pair =E2=80=93 but not using any other pair (read=
: resources associated with other pairs may be released); and
> 3)      PRIOR to selection, agents need to be able to send *AND* receive m=
edia on any valid pair (RFC 7675 adds restrictions, but that=E2=80=99s outsi=
de the scope of 5245bis)
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
> Sent: 25 July 2017 10:17
> To: Bernard Aboba 
> Cc: ice@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245b=
is
> =20
> Hi Bernard,
> =20
> Regarding sending media PRIOR to nomination, we have previously agreed tha=
t any valid pair can be used for that. Perhaps it needs more clarification.
> =20
> Regarding receiving media after nomination, it was discussed in Prague, as=
 it is covered by Peter=E2=80=99s PR. I don=E2=80=99t have access to the PR/=
minutes right now, but I think the outcome was that an agent is only expecte=
d to receive media on the nominated pair (otherwise it cannot free resources=
).
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> From: Bernard Aboba [mailto:bernard.aboba@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: 25 July 2017 02:29
> To: Christer Holmberg 
> Cc: ice@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245b=
is
> =20
> Christer said:=20
> =20
> "The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above=
 should be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change afte=
r a pair has been selected.
>=20
> But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clar=
ify THAT instead :)"=20
> =20
> [BA] Currently, use of the "ice2" ICE option forestalls use of aggressive n=
omination (e.g. setting the nominated flag on more than one pair).  Since on=
ly the selected pair can be used to send media, that would seem to rule out c=
hanging the pair used for media after a pair has been selected:=20
> =20
>    Once a candidate pair has been selected
>    only that candidate pair (referred to as selected pair) is used for
>    sending media.
> =20
> What about changing the pair used for media prior to selection?  On this p=
oint, the text seems less clear than it could be.=20
> =20
> Prior to nomination, the specification allows the sending of media on a su=
ccessful pair:
> =20
>    o  Once there is at least one nominated pair in the VALID LIST for
>       every component of at least one media stream and the state of the
>       CHECK LIST is Running:
> =20
> ...
>  =20
>       *  The agent MUST continue to respond to any checks it may still
>          receive for that media stream, and MUST perform triggered
>          checks if required by the processing of Section 6.3.
> =20
>       *  The agent MAY begin transmitting media for this media stream as=20=

>          described in Section 11.1.
> =20
> However, the specification is not clear enough about the receiving side; w=
hile it recommends that implementations be prepared to receive prior to nomi=
nation, it does not require this. =46rom Section 11.2:=20
> =20
>    ICE implementations SHOULD by default be
>    prepared to receive media on any of the candidates provided in the
>    most recent candidate exchange with the peer.
> =20
> What happens if an implementation is NOT prepared to receive media?
> In WebRTC, an implementation cannot send without consent, which=20
> suggests that perhaps an unwilling receiver could use consent to
> influence the potential sender.=20
> =20
> However, the specification does not even reference RFC 7675,
> so it is left unclear about how this is to be done.
> For example, a receiver might not reply to a consent
> request if the inability to receive is temporary ("I'm not ready yet"),
> but that might cause consent to time out prior to nomination and
> might even influence pair selection inappropriately.
> =20
> Another choice might be to revoke consent (which would
> invalidate the pair).  But that's pretty drastic unless the
> pair is truly unacceptable.=20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> >[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair:=
=20
> >
> >   Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in the VALID
> >   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK LIST is set to
> >   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending and
> >   receiving media for that component.
> >
> >Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.g.=
 unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the "ice2" ICE option d=
oesn't address >potential interoperability issues resulting from different r=
esource release behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support f=
or aggressive nomination):=20
>=20
> The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above s=
hould be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change after a=
 pair has been selected.
>=20
> But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clar=
ify THAT instead :)
>=20
> >   NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this specification
> >   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nominate more
> >   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggressive
> >   nomination in RFC 5245.  The usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
> >   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
> >   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.
> >
> >Christer also said:=20
> >
> >"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might main=
tain consent on pairs currently not
> >used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for th=
e currently nominated pair expires. However,
> >RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."
> >
> >[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:=20
> >
> >   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245].  An
> >   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
> >   enters the Succeeded ICE state.
> >
> >Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send t=
o
> >multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,
> >there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant
> >consent for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
> >Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke
> >consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the
> >selected pair.
>=20
> Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple candidat=
es after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there (unless I've un=
derstood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so would be possible re-n=
omination.
>=20
> Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do need t=
o make it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
> =20
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Christer Holmberg  wrote:
> Hi
> ,
> >[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair:=
=20
> >
> >   Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in the VALID
> >   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK LIST is set to
> >   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending and
> >   receiving media for that component.
> >
> >Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.g.=
 unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the "ice2" ICE option d=
oesn't address >potential interoperability issues resulting from different r=
esource release behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support f=
or aggressive nomination):=20
>=20
> The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above s=
hould be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change after a=
 pair has been selected.
>=20
> But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clar=
ify THAT instead :)
>=20
> >   NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this specification
> >   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nominate more
> >   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggressive
> >   nomination in RFC 5245.  The usage of the 'ice2' ice option by
> >   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such
> >   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.
> >
> >Christer also said:=20
> >
> >"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might main=
tain consent on pairs currently not
> >used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for th=
e currently nominated pair expires. However,
> >RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."
> >
> >[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says:=20
> >
> >   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5245].  An
> >   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the pair
> >   enters the Succeeded ICE state.
> >
> >Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send t=
o
> >multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,
> >there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant
> >consent for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
> >Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke
> >consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the
> >selected pair.
>=20
> Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple candidat=
es after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there (unless I've un=
derstood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so would be possible re-n=
omination.
>=20
> Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do need t=
o make it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Christer Holmberg  wrote:
> Hi Bernard,
> =20
> Support of 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D IC=
E option.
> =20
> Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might mainta=
in consent on pairs currently not used for media, in order to be able to re-=
nominate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires. However, R=
FC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba
> Sent: 20 July 2017 14:22
> To: ice@ietf.org
> Subject: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
> =20
> During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of whether RFC5245bi=
s should indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs (proposed by Pete=
r), or whether it is possible to switch from one interface to another (Culle=
n).  While these capabilities are desirable, attempting to add them to RFC 5=
245bis without negotiation has the potential to break interoperability with e=
xisting RFC 5245 implementations.
> =20
> In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have very=
 different interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones tha=
t did not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs after nom=
ination. These implementations (e.g. particularly ones included in previous p=
roduct releases) cannot be assumed to change their behavior after RFC 5245bi=
s is published.  This raises the possibility that that interoperability coul=
d be impacted.=20
> =20
> Since in practice the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are mo=
st likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle ICE, m=
y recommendation is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trickle ICE ca=
pability.   Since Trickle-ICE support is negotiated, clarifications relating=
 to candidate-pair switching can be linked to that negotiation. =20
> =20
> This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential interoperabi=
lity issues.  For example, if text on candidate-pair switching is to be adde=
d to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the text could say that sup=
port for these behaviors can only be assumed if they are explicitly negotiat=
ed. The Trickle-ICE document could then create normative requirements for su=
pport of the new behaviors by stating that support for them is mandatory whe=
n supporting full-Trickle.=20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20

--Apple-Mail-4E2E5060-9CC1-479D-983E-A9D56B8EBF4C
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I believe that 1) was impli=
ed by removing agressive, but making it more clear is fine.  2) is what=
 is in the current draft.

With respect to 3) it is O=
K to leave sending a MAY but the ability to receive should be required, not j=
ust recommended, so that the sender can assume this when "ice2" is indicated=
.

On Jul 27, 2017, at 4:01 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com&g=
t; wrote:











Hi,


 <=
/o:p>


Would anyone=
 disagree with the following:


 <=
/o:p>


1)     
=
explicitly indicating that re-nomination is *NOT* allowed without ICE=
 restart; and


2)     
=
once a pair has been selected, agents need to be able to send *AND* r=
eceive media using that pair =E2=80=93 but not using
 any other pair (read: resources associated with other pairs may be released=
); and


3)     
=
PRIOR to selection, agents need to be able to send *AND* receive medi=
a on any valid pair (RFC 7675 adds restrictions,
 but that=E2=80=99s outside the scope of 5245bis)


 <=
/o:p>


Regards,


 <=
/o:p>


Christer


 






From: Ice=
 [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg

Sent: 25 July 2017 10:17

To: Bernard Aboba <bern=
ard.aboba@gmail.com>

Cc: ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5=
245bis






 


Hi Bernard,<=
o:p>


 <=
/o:p>


Regarding se=
nding media PRIOR to nomination, we have previously agreed that any valid pa=
ir can be used for that. Perhaps it needs more
 clarification.


 <=
/o:p>


Regarding re=
ceiving media after nomination, it was discussed in Prague, as it is covered=
 by Peter=E2=80=99s PR. I don=E2=80=99t have access to the
 PR/minutes right now, but I think the outcome was that an agent is only exp=
ected to receive media on the nominated pair (otherwise it cannot free resou=
rces).


 <=
/o:p>


Regards,


 <=
/o:p>


Christer


 <=
/o:p>


From: Ber=
nard Aboba [mailto:bernard.aboba@gmail.com]


Sent: 25 July 2017 02:29

To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>

Cc: ice@ietf.or=
g

Subject: Re: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5=
245bis


 




Christer said: 




 






"The whole discussion=
 began when I was given a comment that the text above should be modified, to=
 clarify that the pair used for media can change after a pair has been selec=
ted.



But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clarif=
y THAT instead :)" 






 








[BA] Currently, u=
se of the "ice2" ICE option forestalls use of aggressive nomination (e.g. se=
tting the nominated flag on more than one pair).  Since only the select=
ed pair can be used to send media, that would
 seem to rule out changing the pair used for media after a pair has been sel=
ected: 






 






   Once a candidate pair has been=
 selected


   only that candidate pair (refe=
rred to as selected pair) is used for


   sending media.








 






What about changing the pair used for media prior to s=
election?  On this point, the text seems less clear than it could be.&n=
bsp;






 






Prior to nomination, t=
he specification allows the sending of media on a successful pair:






 






   o  Once there is at least=
 one nominated pair in the VALID LIST for


      every compon=
ent of at least one media stream and the state of the

      CHECK LIST i=
s Running:


 


...


  


      * =
 The agent MUST continue to respond to any checks it may still


       &=
nbsp; receive for that media stream, and MUST perform triggered


       &=
nbsp; checks if required by the processing of Section 6.3.


 


      *  The a=
gent MAY begin transmitting media for this media stream as <=
/span>






  &=
nbsp;      described in
Section 11.1.






 






However, the specific=
ation is not clear enough about the receiving side; while it recommends that=
 implementations be prepared to receive prior to nomination, it does not req=
uire this. =46rom Section 11.2: 






 






   ICE implementations SHOULD by d=
efault be


   prepared to receive media on a=
ny of the candidates provided in the


   most recent candidate exchange=
 with the peer.


 


What happens if an implementation is NOT pr=
epared to receive media?


In WebRTC, an implementation cannot send wi=
thout consent, which 


suggests that perhaps an unwilling receiver=
 could use consent to


influence the potential sender. =



 


However, the specification does not even re=
ference RFC 7675,


so it is left unclear about how this is to b=
e done.


For example, a receiver might not reply to a=
 consent


request if the inability to receive is temp=
orary ("I'm not ready yet"),


but that might cause consent to time out pr=
ior to nomination and


might even influence pair selection inappro=
priately.


 


Another choice might be to revoke consent (=
which would


invalidate the pair).  But that's pret=
ty drastic unless the


pair is truly unacceptable. 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






 






>[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected p=
air: 

>

>   Eventually, there will be only a s=
ingle nominated pair in the VALID

>   LIST for each component.  Onc=
e the state of the CHECK LIST is set to

>   Completed, that exact pair is sele=
cted by ICE for sending and

>   receiving media for that component=
.

>

>Based on that text, an implementation might sti=
ll release resources (e.g. unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given th=
is, the "ice2" ICE option doesn't address >potential interoperabilit=
y issues resulting from different resource
 release behaviors (although it does clear indicate lack of support for aggr=
essive nomination): 



The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above sh=
ould be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change after a=
 pair has been selected.



But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clarif=
y THAT instead :)



>   NOTE: A controlling agent that doe=
s not support this specification

>   (i.e. it is implemented according t=
o RFC 5245) might nominate more

>   than one candidate pair.  Thi=
s was referred to as aggressive

>   nomination in RFC 5245.  The u=
sage of the 'ice2' ice option by

>   endpoints supporting this specifca=
tion should prevent such

>   controlling agents from using aggr=
essive nomination.

>

>Christer also said: 

>

>"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supp=
orting RFC 7675 might maintain consent on pairs currently not

>used for media, in order to be able to re-nomin=
ate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires. However,

>RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about=
 that."

>

>[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says: 

>

>   Initial consent to send traffic is=
 obtained using ICE [RFC5245].  An

>   endpoint gains consent to send on a=
 candidate pair when the pair

>   enters the Succeeded ICE state.

>

>Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might=
 request consent to send to

>multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep t=
hem alive. However,

>there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the r=
esponder to grant

>consent for that.  For example, based on t=
he text in RFC 5245bis

>Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation migh=
t well revoke

>consent on local candidates other than the loca=
l candidate in the

>selected pair.



Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple candidates=
 after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there (unless I've unde=
rstood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so would be possible re-nom=
ination.



Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do need to m=
ake it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.



Regards,



Christer








 




On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Christer Holmberg &l=
t;christ=
er.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:




Hi

,

>[BA] RFC 5245bis Section 7.1.1 continues to imply a single selected pair=
: 

>

>   Eventually, there will be only a single nominated pair in t=
he VALID

>   LIST for each component.  Once the state of the CHECK L=
IST is set to

>   Completed, that exact pair is selected by ICE for sending a=
nd

>   receiving media for that component.

>

>Based on that text, an implementation might still release resources (e.g=
. unused TURN candidates) post-nomination. Given this, the "ice2" ICE o=
ption doesn't address >potential interoperability issues resulting from d=
ifferent resource release behaviors (although
 it does clear indicate lack of support for aggressive nomination): 


The whole discussion began when I was given a comment that the text above sh=
ould be modified, to clarify that the pair used for media can change after a=
 pair has been selected.



But, if the outcome is that the pair can NOT change, maybe we need to clarif=
y THAT instead :)



>   NOTE: A controlling agent that does not support this specif=
ication

>   (i.e. it is implemented according to RFC 5245) might nomina=
te more

>   than one candidate pair.  This was referred to as aggr=
essive

>   nomination in RFC 5245.  The usage of the 'ice2' ice o=
ption by

>   endpoints supporting this specifcation should prevent such<=
br>
>   controlling agents from using aggressive nomination.

>

>Christer also said: 

>

>"Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might mai=
ntain consent on pairs currently not

>used for media, in order to be able to re-nominate in case consent for t=
he currently nominated pair expires. However,

>RFC 7675 does not explicitly say anything about that."

>

>[BA] RFC 7675 Section 5 says: 

>

>   Initial consent to send traffic is obtained using ICE [RFC5=
245].  An

>   endpoint gains consent to send on a candidate pair when the=
 pair

>   enters the Succeeded ICE state.

>

>Given this, an RFC 5245bis implementation might request consent to send t=
o

>multiple remote peer candidates, so as to keep them alive. However,

>there is nothing in RFC 7675 that requires the responder to grant

>consent for that.  For example, based on the text in RFC 5245bis
>Section 7.1.1, a conforming implementation might well revoke

>consent on local candidates other than the local candidate in the

>selected pair.



Sure - the responder is not mandated to grant consent to multiple candidates=
 after nomination. But, the option to do seems to be there (unless I've unde=
rstood the RFC wrong), and the only reason to do so would be possible re-nom=
ination.



Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings which way we go, but we do need to m=
ake it clear in the spec whether re-nomination is allowed or not.



Regards,



Christer














On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:<=
br>
Hi Bernard,

 

Support of 5245bis is also negotiated, using the =E2=80=9Cice2=E2=80=9D ICE o=
ption.

 

Also, my understanding was that endpoints supporting RFC 7675 might maintain=
 consent on pairs currently not used for media, in order to be able to re-no=
minate in case consent for the currently nominated pair expires. However, RFC=
 7675 does not explicitly say
 anything about that.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.o=
rg] On Behalf Of Bernard Aboba

Sent: 20 July 2017 14:22

To: ice@ietf.org

Subject: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis
=

 

During the ICE WG meeting today, there was discussion of whether RFC5245bis s=
hould indicate that it is possible to re-nominate pairs (proposed by Peter),=
 or whether it is possible to switch from one interface to another (Cullen).=
  While these capabilities are
 desirable, attempting to add them to RFC 5245bis without negotiation has th=
e potential to break interoperability with existing RFC 5245 implementations=
.

 

In my experience, this is an area where RFC 5245 implementations have very d=
ifferent interpretations. For example, some implementations (e.g. ones that d=
id not support aggressive) discard non-selected candidate pairs after nomina=
tion. These implementations
 (e.g. particularly ones included in previous product releases) cannot be as=
sumed to change their behavior after RFC 5245bis is published.  This ra=
ises the possibility that that interoperability could be impacted. 
=

 

Since in practice the desired candidate pair switching capabilities are most=
 likely to be supported in WebRTC implementations supporting Trickle ICE, my=
 recommendation is to think of candidate pair switching as a Trickle ICE cap=
ability.   Since Trickle-ICE
 support is negotiated, clarifications relating to candidate-pair switching c=
an be linked to that negotiation.  

 

This provides a potential way forward that bypasses potential interoperabili=
ty issues.  For example, if text on candidate-pair switching is to be a=
dded to (either to RFC 5245bis or Trickle-ICE) then the text could say that s=
upport for these behaviors can only
 be assumed if they are explicitly negotiated. The Trickle-ICE document coul=
d then create normative requirements for support of the new behaviors by sta=
ting that support for them is mandatory when supporting full-Trickle. <=
br>
 

 










 








=

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To: Bernard Aboba 
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Thread-Topic: [Ice] Re-nomination and candidate pair switching in RFC 5245bis - PROPOSAL
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