From nobody Mon Oct 2 15:44:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C1013422F for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eezHgEUrFP4H for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu (linzer.ki.iif.hu [IPv6:2001:738:0:600:216:3eff:fe02:b1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9107B134900 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.182]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D872D40635F for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 00:44:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.224.163.7]) by cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4S1fJGJX1Xc for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 00:44:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [100.80.189.152] (254C4EC6.nat.pool.telekom.hu [37.76.78.198]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3A624060F0 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 00:44:05 +0200 (CEST) To: ice@ietf.org From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 00:44:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:44:13 -0000 Hi, Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it. (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.) IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relayin= g, and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it as relayed type. I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32) Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured. My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in UK.... :-( If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also considered as relayed candidate.. If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO relay= =2E Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered as host address, ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN. All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an exception for this case. Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on the host interface, as relay and not as host. Please comment/correct my thoughts. Thanks, Misi From nobody Mon Oct 2 15:49:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8545132D51 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:49:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PACOudcq9ZjR for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32514134239 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id e195so9664255wma.5 for ; Mon, 02 Oct 2017 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bogUkAv6scFHmr7LL7Xka+fFbKv75zTPVK9dgUtD2rA=; b=oCQrfOfl8ZJ6rbsZuoQPh2ojcieddROXt34WJWSUE6Cbq4GO3Q1Yxcl0XWrN6DYZ98 +sCpwReTB0YFCbtCbwPjJ42g6o9g34VqI3mVJClpQRNMGhOblN8ffO4BJIT/71NCvBQ/ 1UolvOgZDHX/DgOs82izLmoDdruvBiAzEqd6R9CPnHgev3UpWTmVsMnB1Xku5tT/49L+ k2NAJdHhi3fJ501+1fvF0JAdMBM1YqUQOkDNBXzT6sSeB2rZXy10C1+AmkzVOwg29com 7u6MZyfWnqpzEz2g5L4m/amMlOIq3jBuT6Orz6JgjpwshAt1qUf4shWDWfl9Wqxcpq04 +mvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bogUkAv6scFHmr7LL7Xka+fFbKv75zTPVK9dgUtD2rA=; b=nIi5oEiWfehIqRhTdLawlgdMQ2OL5f8lyoTi0CCyan04xLIvP/Co61UhoO4urjCvN/ T6vLtXkaDRjnGgkL+APdF5J56Ob0iNBqQC2vqcO91r4fi4pXL/JjfkzwirSILpP9J7yI m1fkXvjNbz18yQ0lXyUeBAdYko17Xr8D7dAnk1YeENyR3zElnvG5bmn+aFqiI2gBj3sg uvj52kmFTu8VmY4wn5ossyp2pcntRrfCCiVwVamb6rUxYQeP2ZSyts3ZCQdWceILBLFL 2mgSec2kWkTq3LHwNq7zFtVI+XX77Uin71YiA5mCPTf8J4HDVwcWYaznPWd15Q0RTDbQ 4ojQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUhG8cBRPPcs0u3cCRvG1FQBk7Nsxl6GDHiKN8dxivTQ/8IAc03 qr3bIvEy/ms44gmC7ngY+drrnn3Sjvz/56nI9ggm8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QDElMe94WG28zgH35D8R1aE58GrOo0MeFzDjI+4Q0fd1kSMtNR09Mgu1z7r+8QDiqyQ2tcCx+drkZsALWtuAsM= X-Received: by 10.28.165.212 with SMTP id o203mr6222882wme.68.1506984562553; Mon, 02 Oct 2017 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:49:10 +0000 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= , ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b41a888fc7e055a982fe7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:49:27 -0000 --001a114b41a888fc7e055a982fe7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise? Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly wrote: > Hi, > > Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but > > AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and > according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it. > > (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.) > > > IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relayin= g, > and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it > as relayed type. > > I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other > hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, > because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32) > > Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. > On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users > with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured. > > My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very > close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in > UK.... :-( > > If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also > considered as relayed candidate.. > > If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the > communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO relay= . > > Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered > as host address, > ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also > relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN. > > > All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and > because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an > exception for this case. > Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on > the host interface, as relay and not as host. > > Please comment/correct my thoughts. > > Thanks, > > Misi > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --001a114b41a888fc7e055a982fe7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates = are relayed if they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this need to be in = the ICE spec?

On Mon, = Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu> wrote:
Hi,

Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but

AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.

(That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)


IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relaying,=
and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
as relayed type.

I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.

My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very
close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in
UK.... :-(

If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
considered as relayed candidate..

If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO rel= ay.

Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered as host address,
ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.


All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
exception for this case.
Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
the host interface, as relay and not as host.

Please comment/correct my thoughts.

Thanks,

Misi


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
--001a114b41a888fc7e055a982fe7-- From nobody Mon Oct 2 21:57:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF89133071 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 21:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OGo83c1AlK-R for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 21:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu (linzer.ki.iif.hu [IPv6:2001:738:0:600:216:3eff:fe02:b1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69B1413304D for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 21:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolha.lvs.iif.hu (bolha.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.181]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9714060D6; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 06:57:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at bolha.lvs.iif.hu Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.224.163.7]) by bolha.lvs.iif.hu (bolha.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DfCrQUvwbtII; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 06:57:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (host-178-21-48-170.comunique.hu [178.21.48.170]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96D2D4060C4; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 06:57:28 +0200 (CEST) To: Peter Thatcher , ice@ietf.org References: From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= Message-ID: <25383ed9-e932-b192-6573-31071946f71d@niif.hu> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 06:57:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------717F2BAFA23ED5A87FF8AECE" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 04:57:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------717F2BAFA23ED5A87FF8AECE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Peter et al. > Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if > they think it's wise? > I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client". Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local adapter/interface with IPv6 address. ICE will detect it as host candidate. It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be treated as relayed. e.g. Chrome: 57.0.2987.133 sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 21= 2225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 u= frag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50 > Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects, but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal. ICE spec defines: * host candidates =C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP ad= dress =C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN= =C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host. * type preferences. 4.1.2.2. Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates. The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate". According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" with the highest type preference. VS. Relayed with type preference 0. IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed. Thanks, Misi On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote: > Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if > they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly > wrote: > > Hi, > > Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but > > AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and > according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.= > > (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.) > > > IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also > relaying, > and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider= it > as relayed type. > > I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the ot= her > hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, > because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP > 2001::/32) > > Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. > On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home us= ers > with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured. > > My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a > very > close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO > relay in > UK.... :-( > > If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should als= o > considered as relayed candidate.. > > If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close > to the > communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the > TEREDO relay. > > Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo > considered > as host address, > ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will > be also > relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN. > > > All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, = and > because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text= an > exception for this case. > Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered = on > the host interface, as relay and not as host. > > Please comment/correct my thoughts. > > Thanks, > > Misi > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --------------717F2BAFA23ED5A87FF8AECE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter et al.


Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?

I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client".
Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address
It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local adapter/interface with IPv6 address.

ICE will detect it as host candidate.
It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be treated as relayed.

e.g.
Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50
Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
but it is  treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.

ICE spec defines:
  • host candidates
   Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address
   attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN
   interfaces) on the host.
  • type preferences.
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" with the highest type preference.
VS.
Relayed with type preference 0.

IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.


Thanks,
Misi

On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?  Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM Mészáros Mihály <misi@niif.hu> wrote:
Hi,

Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but

AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.

(That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)


IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relaying,
and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
as relayed type.

I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.

My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very
close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in
UK.... :-(

If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
considered as relayed candidate..

If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the
communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered
as host address,
ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also
relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.


All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
exception for this case.
Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
the host interface, as relay and not as host.

Please comment/correct my thoughts.

Thanks,

Misi


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

--------------717F2BAFA23ED5A87FF8AECE-- From nobody Mon Oct 2 22:06:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1444A13304D for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 22:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yN04xEkfuyL2 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 22:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x233.google.com (mail-wr0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9261313301B for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2017 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x233.google.com with SMTP id k62so5432219wrc.9 for ; Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:06:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PS5XynKi6BTM5EG3ln9O7+xmUhK+mLHxdfKNoRS4bbY=; b=VnhU6lMt04C4h1+hbvdY69k9c7LyL0SOXDSpetmcmSopT1pxVXGjw5vGlfJqmBIj5T eZPc5z1wZOKqgFVErrCEQzKzOTRQyoJU+rFAQjM0dBmkMz3xzoZZygtUKjF/OQaoWeYm FyvblSEQ0tiAaRm1Pv+HormzybwudFJPScVt0mbyTUCBgCT7D839oeoirdZwYsjb0e7O 1ffGWer3TM84ybtTFbZQiZmudQgQF+OvzTE/sPHGojpVgJ/50u9WJN3W7kNWKUIbRtpI v2IMqTgapN9ytPtwFAKT0PlH7mB19cd/uAQX+6d1FOQAc3OottIISCx/zyN/LZycctAJ 2cwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=PS5XynKi6BTM5EG3ln9O7+xmUhK+mLHxdfKNoRS4bbY=; b=eVRkpbA9USDQweetBcqpn8zvpq07O5JFdFLnPis87iWRaDFuRLxcLcaoqaICRZFJ+O 8ksItOOf58xqUuYF4py2w9hw4CXM89D3TF9LQ7Loeif6Bnm/Kn3Q8OvsxyieQxmqdB9r yob+iOMDB8vLtbusVKLReimDQTwI/8xmvu39Kuatz8prvPy1kRnNN8GViYuAed8RTLLH P6SfwE1GodIlf3cDTB1+bLRJqWvZw+MAxPXuIxRRGE40ljyYEgRGJYAxhyBrQXm/bd3q hTvY3TvmttDcemrinu5yFG2amczBy/a+UzZnoJsKPkQaphZcPrnQaoItxaje5rbEmqEU Lr3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWmkCOPLN6mkrj6os31sfQZLIH1E72usK3KnI2ccjBetwUiOFDw EdQR/v1WWWwn6v3+FOr82dxm7gRDHXtxNi+cg7ZyeHmz X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QB7UwKu8rxLvp7TD23IzgN8wtTMNdBQuFdBVYLLHOnKVQh3U7sEaftl2JbPaeTBDlrXGnKe0JSsSL9JB5MeeGk= X-Received: by 10.223.173.97 with SMTP id p88mr4962911wrc.280.1507007160946; Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:06:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25383ed9-e932-b192-6573-31071946f71d@niif.hu> In-Reply-To: <25383ed9-e932-b192-6573-31071946f71d@niif.hu> From: Peter Thatcher Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 05:05:48 +0000 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= , ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045cf558810c0f055a9d726d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 05:06:05 -0000 --f403045cf558810c0f055a9d726d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO. I thought you were saying that there was a server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just mark it's candidates as relay). It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface. Is that correct? On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly wrote: > Hi Peter et al. > > > > Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they > think it's wise? > > I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client". > Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) > on windows with an IPv6 address > It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local adapter/interfac= e > with IPv6 address. > > ICE will detect it as host candidate. > It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my > opinion it should be treated as relayed. > > e.g. > Chrome: 57.0.2987.133 > > sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 <(312)%2= 0395-8951> 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ ho= st generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50 > > > > > Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? > > TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and rela= y > very similarly to TURN in many aspects, > but it is treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal. > > ICE spec defines: > > - host candidates > > Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address > attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN > interfaces) on the host. > > - type preferences. > > 4.1.2.2. Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences > > The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host > candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server > reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates. > > > The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO > according current spec definition is a "host candidate". > According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host > candidate" with the highest type preference. > VS. > Relayed with type preference 0. > > IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host > candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed. > > > Thanks, > Misi > > > On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote: > > Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they > think it's wise? Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but >> >> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and >> according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it. >> >> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.) >> >> >> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also >> relaying, >> and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it >> as relayed type. >> >> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other >> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, >> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32) >> >> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. >> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users >> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured. >> >> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very >> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in >> UK.... :-( >> >> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also >> considered as relayed candidate.. >> >> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the >> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO rela= y. >> >> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered >> as host address, >> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also >> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN. >> >> >> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and >> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an >> exception for this case. >> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on >> the host interface, as relay and not as host. >> >> Please comment/correct my thoughts. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Misi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> > > --f403045cf558810c0f055a9d726d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought you were sayin= g that there was a server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it= could just mark it's candidates as relay).

It sound= s like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.= =C2=A0 Is that correct?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <= misi@niif.hu> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Hi Peter et al.



Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?

I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "T= eredo client".
Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address
It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local adapter/interface with IPv6 address.

ICE will detect it as host candidate.
It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be treated as relayed.

e.g.
Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
sdpMid: audio, sdpML=
ineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:=
79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id =
1 network-cost 50
Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.

ICE spec defines:
  • host candidates
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an= IP address
=C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (physical or virtual, in= cluding VPN
=C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host.
  • type preferences.
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" with the highest type preference.
VS.
Relayed with type preference 0.

IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.


Thanks,
Misi


On 2017-10-03 00:49= , Peter Thatcher wrote:
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does = this need to be in the ICE spec?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros = Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.h= u> wrote:
Hi,

Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but

AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.

(That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)


IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relaying,
and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
as relayed type.

I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.

My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very
close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in
UK.... :-(

If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
considered as relayed candidate..

If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the
communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered
as host address,
ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also
relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.


All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
exception for this case.
Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
the host interface, as relay and not as host.

Please comment/correct my thoughts.

Thanks,

Misi


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

--f403045cf558810c0f055a9d726d-- From nobody Tue Oct 3 09:09:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FC613422B for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 09:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VmJlrQUb6ibu for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29454134EBA for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id d12so4877004vkf.1 for ; Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FiA/C6giikrLDsW0wU2LB/CVi8WYwaUPAU31oMyEXpI=; b=DdgGEde8wxIwBqGCiOiMi3pQ1Fk68qQ6toVgWXsoPofZSf/xpaBYcTnhQpuT3dhk/1 ql4AVvwLefp8lvslHf1Wt3H2SDYRaF2j3ca74uu4PgUo1KHLxSzaH0RaSEpB8jnoklVG vI36AIp52kHW4z3mE+6/qEK8cOiGVE+1S9Y4dw3SC4vTt8j5YVX4sFo71oyRJroCtkt/ 9aj4guq7fojey3A3NfCEqnFsof6ueUEZmPMZ9f9J+81r8lXHVdDzcNAWJzUpqac42ZNA wV2hhfbPJGW5KjdGiP+fTdl8YBRpENttbLxVFrphCjJ5PcWkV8U7LWvtjwud41WqNVB/ S3xQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FiA/C6giikrLDsW0wU2LB/CVi8WYwaUPAU31oMyEXpI=; b=jMYyeJiEBX6Zd7GvzlWVLENaAohioGk176xs8iMyFt9VX4R8cPeGyFWHbQtpP41BIr lM3kaAJ2DWwrPxSeuoPql6+lRVV1UpswmkLPPZcGBnwosq2C70wNhfttcKSaLJxuW5H7 6+A2rWyNRz5ZiyRuHqUBVO176rTj2kJlJAwRF82eyKANjuLnTQVd+Q3HdlnhyeVrl8zu GmjBz914sqzkanY5CagB5Lp53HJRXuc1iS7YMQtSRlzsKF2yapjNqWsUXt2AkVIQ/L5l nJlYOL1PMllqc/5tCIoGWXurhMFHUdlamnrmlig8zFVwKzAU+R9b1R3nGS7q8tVVBjtZ uV7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVc5o0hUBoFNaok0+PBAD7FT6K3YXYK0ok6nLtSk3u+XvesFwcr XuGIb54/hpoo7q29ZrUS8WuSKsjfy3pdGwWQQvU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QCu7jhCp6bFg33+bUvNnK2MDyp9jxJMajKX+R7ySWykyRSJq3RteRL5wGah6xUjCB0DW9q7KCXoPPYpl6DjDc4= X-Received: by 10.31.62.76 with SMTP id l73mr3916381vka.107.1507046961974; Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:09:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.32.76 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 09:09:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <25383ed9-e932-b192-6573-31071946f71d@niif.hu> From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 09:09:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Peter Thatcher Cc: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= , ICE WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114476c2d41f0a055aa6b696" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 16:09:26 -0000 --001a114476c2d41f0a055aa6b696 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter said: "It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface. Is that correct?" [BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so the following snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness apply: Applications should take special care to deprioritize network interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in a multihomed environment. For example, certain tunnel services might provide unreliable connectivity. Doing so will ensure a more fair distribution of the connectivity checks across available network interfaces on the device. The simple guidelines presented here describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to provide unreliable connectivity... Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the dual-stack candidates. On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO. I thought you were saying that there was a > server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just mark > it's candidates as relay). > > It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network > interface. Is that correct? > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly wrote: > >> Hi Peter et al. >> >> >> >> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if the= y >> think it's wise? >> >> I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client". >> Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) >> on windows with an IPv6 address >> It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local >> adapter/interface with IPv6 address. >> >> ICE will detect it as host candidate. >> It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my >> opinion it should be treated as relayed. >> >> e.g. >> Chrome: 57.0.2987.133 >> >> sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 <(312)%= 20395-8951> 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ h= ost generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50 >> >> >> >> >> Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? >> >> TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and >> relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects, >> but it is treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal. >> >> ICE spec defines: >> >> - host candidates >> >> Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address >> attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN >> interfaces) on the host. >> >> - type preferences. >> >> 4.1.2.2. Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences >> >> The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host >> candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server >> reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates. >> >> >> The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO >> according current spec definition is a "host candidate". >> According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host >> candidate" with the highest type preference. >> VS. >> Relayed with type preference 0. >> >> IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host >> candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed. >> >> >> Thanks, >> Misi >> >> >> On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote: >> >> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if the= y >> think it's wise? Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? >> >> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but >>> >>> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and >>> according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it. >>> >>> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.) >>> >>> >>> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also >>> relaying, >>> and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it >>> as relayed type. >>> >>> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other >>> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, >>> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32) >>> >>> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. >>> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users >>> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured. >>> >>> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very >>> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in >>> UK.... :-( >>> >>> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also >>> considered as relayed candidate.. >>> >>> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to th= e >>> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO >>> relay. >>> >>> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considere= d >>> as host address, >>> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be als= o >>> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN. >>> >>> >>> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and >>> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an >>> exception for this case. >>> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on >>> the host interface, as relay and not as host. >>> >>> Please comment/correct my thoughts. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Misi >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --001a114476c2d41f0a055aa6b696 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter said:=C2=A0

"It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on= a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correct?"

[BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so t= he following snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualst= ack-fairness apply:
<= br>
   Applications shou=
ld take special care to deprioritize network
   interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
   a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
   provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
   distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
   interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
   describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
   provide unreliable connectivity...

   Candidate=
s with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be
   ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
   dual-stack candidates.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter That= cher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought = you were saying that there was a server giving out candidates (in which cas= e I thought it could just mark it's candidates as relay).

It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN netwo= rk interface.=C2=A0 Is that correct?

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M= =C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu> wrote:
Hi Peter et al.



Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?

I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "T= eredo client".
Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address
It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local adapter/interface with IPv6 address.

ICE will detect it as host candidate.
It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be treated as relayed.

e.g.
Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
sdpMid: audio, sdpML=
ineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:=
79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B networ=
k-id 1 network-cost 50
Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.

ICE spec defines:
  • host candidates
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an= IP address
=C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (physical or virtual, in= cluding VPN
=C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host.
  • type preferences.
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" with the highest type preference.
VS.
Relayed with type preference 0.

IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.


Thanks,
Misi


On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does = this need to be in the ICE spec?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros = Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.h= u> wrote:
Hi,

Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but

AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.

(That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)


IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relaying,
and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
as relayed type.

I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.

My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very
close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in
UK.... :-(

If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
considered as relayed candidate..

If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the
communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered
as host address,
ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also
relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.


All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
exception for this case.
Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
the host interface, as relay and not as host.

Please comment/correct my thoughts.

Thanks,

Misi


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


--001a114476c2d41f0a055aa6b696-- From nobody Tue Oct 3 20:54:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E932613304E for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 20:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2s4y0uCVv6QT for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 20:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu (linzer.ki.iif.hu [IPv6:2001:738:0:600:216:3eff:fe02:b1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F724126B71 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 20:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.182]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6740B4060C4; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 05:54:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.224.163.7]) by cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqEuX9xS39dX; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 05:54:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (host-178-21-48-170.comunique.hu [178.21.48.170]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D9F14060C3; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 05:54:28 +0200 (CEST) To: Peter Thatcher , ice@ietf.org References: <25383ed9-e932-b192-6573-31071946f71d@niif.hu> From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= Message-ID: <1b6427ef-43fa-7a5e-99d1-84e821b444bb@niif.hu> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 05:54:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D7E7D4DCDD2703A5E4D3EE01" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 03:54:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D7E7D4DCDD2703A5E4D3EE01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN > network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correct? Yes, exactly, with some implementation differences. TEREDO is autmatic.. e.g. To have a VPN the user need to setup VPN connection, but on windows TEREDO is enabled by default. On 2017-10-03 07:05, Peter Thatcher wrote: > Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought you were saying that there = was > a server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just > mark it's candidates as relay). > > It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN > network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correct? > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly > wrote: > > Hi Peter et al. > > > >> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed >> if they think it's wise? >> > I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo clien= t". > Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling > Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address > It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local > adapter/interface with IPv6 address. > > ICE will detect it as host candidate. > It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in > my opinion it should be treated as relayed. > > e.g. > Chrome: 57.0.2987.133 > > sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c= 8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50 > > > >> Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? > TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel > and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects, > but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.= > > ICE spec defines: > > * host candidates > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an= IP address > =C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (physical or virtual, includi= ng VPN > =C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host. > > * type preferences. > > 4.1.2.2. Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences > > The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host > candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server > reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates. > > > The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and > TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate". > According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a > "host candidate" with the highest type preference. > VS. > Relayed with type preference 0. > > IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host > candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed. > > > Thanks, > Misi > > > On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote: >> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed >> if they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this need to be in the ICE= spec? >> >> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, bu= t >> >> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate a= nd >> according it, we have to use the host local type preference >> for it. >> >> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.= ) >> >> >> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing >> also relaying, >> and should be not considered as host candidate type rather >> consider it >> as relayed type. >> >> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in >> the other >> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, >> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP >> 2001::/32) >> >> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. >> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such >> home users >> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured. >> >> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I >> set a very >> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use >> TEREDO relay in >> UK.... :-( >> >> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO >> should also >> considered as relayed candidate.. >> >> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is >> close to the >> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the >> TEREDO relay. >> >> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo >> considered >> as host address, >> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it >> will be also >> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TUR= N. >> >> >> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this >> case, and >> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in >> the text an >> exception for this case. >> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is >> discovered on >> the host interface, as relay and not as host. >> >> Please comment/correct my thoughts. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Misi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> > --------------D7E7D4DCDD2703A5E4D3EE01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.  Is that correct?

Yes, exactly, with some implementation differences.
TEREDO is autmatic..
e.g. To have a VPN the user need to setup VPN connection, but on windows TEREDO is enabled by default.


On 2017-10-03 07:05, Peter Thatcher wrote:
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.  I thought you were saying that there was a server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just mark it's candidates as relay).

It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.  Is that correct?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM Mészáros Mihály <misi@niif.hu> wrote:
Hi Peter et al.



Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?

I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client".
Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address
It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local adapter/interface with IPv6 address.

ICE will detect it as host candidate.
It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be treated as relayed.

e.g.
Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50
Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
but it is  treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.

ICE spec defines:
  • host candidates
   Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address
   attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN
   interfaces) on the host.
  • type preferences.
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" with the highest type preference.
VS.
Relayed with type preference 0.

IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.


Thanks,
Misi


On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if they think it's wise?  Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM Mészáros Mihály <misi@niif.hu> wrote:
Hi,

Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but

AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.

(That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)


IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also relaying,
and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
as relayed type.

I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.

My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very
close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in
UK.... :-(

If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
considered as relayed candidate..

If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to the
communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considered
as host address,
ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be also
relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.


All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
exception for this case.
Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
the host interface, as relay and not as host.

Please comment/correct my thoughts.

Thanks,

Misi


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


--------------D7E7D4DCDD2703A5E4D3EE01-- From nobody Tue Oct 3 21:08:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9292D132D17 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 21:08:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 560AbwhD_caR for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 21:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu (linzer.ki.iif.hu [193.224.163.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8EA21323F7 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2017 21:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolha.lvs.iif.hu (bolha.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.181]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1CD4060C4; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:08:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at bolha.lvs.iif.hu Received: from linzer.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.224.163.7]) by bolha.lvs.iif.hu (bolha.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eae4eDh-plsb; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:08:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (host-178-21-48-170.comunique.hu [178.21.48.170]) by linzer.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0BF04060C3; Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:08:23 +0200 (CEST) To: Bernard Aboba , Peter Thatcher Cc: ICE WG References: <25383ed9-e932-b192-6573-31071946f71d@niif.hu> From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOpc3rDoXJvcyBNaWjDoWx5?= Message-ID: <81cd71c2-f1b0-dbab-8b1c-eb726d3c847d@niif.hu> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 06:08:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------30B5CA2D570152C34E7C809F" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 04:08:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------30B5CA2D570152C34E7C809F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So you mean the application should take care about it and detect it, and after candidate gathering set the "type priority" to 0 in case they detect=C2=A0 "unreliable connectivity"? The application should make decision based on the gathered IP address, and if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO address and so "unreliable connectivity"? Am I understand you correctly? On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Peter said:=C2=A0 > > "It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN > network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correct?" > > [BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so the > following snippets from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness apply: > > Applications should take special care to deprioritize network > interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating i= n > a multihomed environment. For example, certain tunnel services migh= t > provide unreliable connectivity. Doing so will ensure a more fair > distribution of the connectivity checks across available network > interfaces on the device. The simple guidelines presented here > describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to > provide unreliable connectivity... > Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be > ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the > dual-stack candidates. > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter Thatcher > wrote: > > Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought you were saying that th= ere > was a server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it > could just mark it's candidates as relay). > > It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN > network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correct? > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly > wrote: > > Hi Peter et al. > > > >> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are >> relayed if they think it's wise? >> > I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo > client". > Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling > Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address > It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local > adapter/interface with IPv6 address. > > ICE will detect it as host candidate. > It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and > so in my opinion it should be treated as relayed. > > e.g. > Chrome: 57.0.2987.133 > > sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:312395895= 1 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e= 1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost = 50 > > > >> Why does this need to be in the ICE spec? > TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a > tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects, > but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO that is not opti= mal. > > ICE spec defines: > > * host candidates > > =C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports o= n an IP > address > =C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (physical or virtual, inc= luding VPN > =C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host. > > * type preferences. > > 4.1.2.2. Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences > > The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host= > candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for serve= r > reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates. > > > The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and > TEREDO according current spec definition is a "host candidate".= > According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it > is a "host candidate" with the highest type preference. > VS. > Relayed with type preference 0. > > IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be > host candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed. > > > Thanks, > Misi > > > On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote: >> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are >> relayed if they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this need to b= e in >> the ICE spec? >> >> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly = > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the >> situation, but >> >> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host >> candidate and >> according it, we have to use the host local type >> preference for it. >> >> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host >> interface.) >> >> >> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is >> doing also relaying, >> and should be not considered as host candidate type >> rather consider it >> as relayed type. >> >> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but >> in the other >> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location, >> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast >> BGP 2001::/32) >> >> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO. >> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all >> such home users >> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configure= d. >> >> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary >> and I set a very >> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use >> TEREDO relay in >> UK.... :-( >> >> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO >> should also >> considered as relayed candidate.. >> >> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that >> is close to the >> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much >> the TEREDO relay. >> >> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because >> Teredo considered >> as host address, >> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if >> it will be also >> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than >> the TURN. >> >> >> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify >> this case, and >> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define >> in the text an >> exception for this case. >> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is >> discovered on >> the host interface, as relay and not as host. >> >> Please comment/correct my thoughts. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Misi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > --------------30B5CA2D570152C34E7C809F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

So you mean the application should take care about it and detect it,
and after candidate gathering set the "type priority" to 0 in case they detect  "unreliable connectivity"?
The application should make decision based on the gathered IP address, and if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO address and so "unreliable connectivity"?

Am I understand you correctly?

On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba wrote:
Peter said: 

"It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.  Is that correct?"

[BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so the following snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness apply:

   Applications should take special care to deprioritize network
   interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
   a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
   provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
   distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
   interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
   describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
   provide unreliable connectivity...

          
   Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be
   ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
   dual-stack candidates.

        

      

      


        
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter
          Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
          wrote:

          

            
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.  I thought you
              were saying that there was a server giving out candidates
              (in which case I thought it could just mark it's
              candidates as relay).
              


              

              
It sounds like this is more similar to host
                candidates on a VPN network interface.  Is that correct?

              

                

                  


                    

                      
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM
                        Mészáros Mihály <misi@niif.hu>
                        wrote:

                      

                      

                        
 Hi Peter
                          et al.

                        


                          

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say
                              the candidates are relayed if they think
                              it's wise?

                          

                        

                        
 I assume
                          "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the
                          "Teredo client".

                          Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo
                          Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an
                          IPv6 address 

                          It seems to be a host candidate, because it
                          setups local adapter/interface with IPv6
                          address.

                          

                          ICE will detect it as host candidate.

                          It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled
                          and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be
                          treated as relayed.

                          

                          e.g.

                          Chrome: 57.0.2987.133

                          
sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50





                        

                        

                          
Why does this need to
                            be in the ICE spec?

                          

                        

                        
 TEREDO is
                          an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is
                          a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in
                          many aspects, 

                          but it is  treated as host candidate IMHO that
                          is not optimal.

                          

                          ICE spec defines:

                          
    
                            
  • host candidates 
    • 
                          

                             Host candidates are obtained by binding
                            to ports on an IP address

                             attached to an interface (physical
                            or virtual, including VPN

                             interfaces) on the host.

                          
                          
    
                            
  • type preferences.
    • 
                          

                          
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

                          

                          The Spec recommends, type preference for host
                          candidates, and TEREDO according current spec
                          definition is a "host candidate".

                          According these, Teredo as it is local host
                          IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" with
                          the highest type preference.

                          VS.

                          Relayed with type preference 0.

                          

                          IMHO spec should address this edge case where
                          it seems to be host candidate but it is more
                          related to tunneled/relayed.

                          

                          

                          Thanks,

                          Misi

                        


                          

                          
On
                            2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints
                              just say the candidates are relayed if
                              they think it's wise?  Why does this need
                              to be in the ICE spec?

                            

                            

                              
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44
                                PM Mészáros Mihály <misi@niif.hu>
                                wrote:

                              

                              
Hi,

                                

                                Please correct me if I totally
                                misunderstand the situation, but

                                

                                AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE
                                as a host candidate and

                                according it, we have to use the host
                                local type preference for it.

                                

                                (That seems to be logical because it is
                                on the host interface.)

                                

                                

                                IMHO that is not the right behavior,
                                because TEREDO is doing also relaying,

                                and should be not considered as host
                                candidate type rather consider it

                                as relayed type.

                                

                                I can configure a very close TURN relay
                                in WebRTC UA, but in the other

                                hand I can not set the TEREDO relay
                                location,

                                because it depends on the network
                                provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

                                

                                Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.

                                On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by
                                default, and all such home users

                                with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6
                                address configured.

                                

                                My experience was that my peers are
                                located in Hungary and I set a very

                                close Hungarian TURN server,
                                surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay
                                in

                                UK.... :-(

                                

                                If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying,
                                then I think TEREDO should also

                                considered as relayed candidate..

                                

                                If I have very close nice low latency
                                TURN service, that is close to the

                                communication peers, than I don't want
                                to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

                                

                                Actually according to the actual ICE
                                behavior, because Teredo considered

                                as host address,

                                ICE will definitely choose and use
                                TEREDO relay, even if it will be also

                                relayed like TURN, and may even adds
                                more latency than the TURN.

                                

                                

                                All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc
                                should clarify this case, and

                                because TEREDO is also relaying, so I
                                propose to define in the text an

                                exception for this case.

                                Consider TEREDO candidate type
                                preference even if it is discovered on

                                the host interface, as relay and not as
                                host.

                                

                                Please comment/correct my thoughts.

                                

                                Thanks,

                                

                                Misi

                                

                                

                                _______________________________________________

                                Ice mailing list

                                Ice@ietf.org

                                https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

                              

                            

                          

                          

                        

                      

                    

                  

                

              

            

            

            _______________________________________________

            Ice mailing list

            Ice@ietf.org

            https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

            

          

        

        

      

    

    

  


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From: Bernard Aboba 
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:55:50 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host?
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We have found that Teredo candidates are rarely optimal, and often have
high failure rates on checks, so that the "unreliable  connectiv
ity" advice in the dual stack document applies well to them.

On Oct 3, 2017 9:08 PM, "M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly"  wro=
te:

The application should make decision based on the gathered IP address, and
if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO address and so
"unreliable connectivity"?

Am I understand you correctly?
On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba wrote:

Peter said:

"It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network
interface.  Is that correct?"

[BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so the
following snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/
draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness apply:

   Applications should take special care to deprioritize network
   interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
   a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
   provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
   distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
   interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
   describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
   provide unreliable connectivity...

   Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be
   ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
   dual-stack candidates.


On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter Thatcher 
wrote:

> Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.  I thought you were saying that there was a
> server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just mark
> it's candidates as relay).
>
> It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network
> interface.  Is that correct?
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly  wrote:
>
>> Hi Peter et al.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if the=
y
>> think it's wise?
>>
>> I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client".
>> Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface)
>> on windows with an IPv6 address
>> It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local
>> adapter/interface with IPv6 address.
>>
>> ICE will detect it as host candidate.
>> It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my
>> opinion it should be treated as relayed.
>>
>> e.g.
>> Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
>>
>> sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 <%28312=
%29%20395-8951> 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 t=
yp host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
>>
>> TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and
>> relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
>> but it is  treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.
>>
>> ICE spec defines:
>>
>>    - host candidates
>>
>>    Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address
>>    attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN
>>    interfaces) on the host.
>>
>>    - type preferences.
>>
>> 4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences
>>
>>    The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
>>    candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
>>    reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.
>>
>>
>> The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO
>> according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
>> According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host
>> candidate" with the highest type preference.
>> VS.
>> Relayed with type preference 0.
>>
>> IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host
>> candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Misi
>>
>>
>> On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>>
>> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if the=
y
>> think it's wise?  Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but
>>>
>>> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
>>> according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.
>>>
>>> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)
>>>
>>>
>>> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also
>>> relaying,
>>> and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
>>> as relayed type.
>>>
>>> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
>>> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
>>> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)
>>>
>>> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
>>> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
>>> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.
>>>
>>> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a very
>>> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay in
>>> UK.... :-(
>>>
>>> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
>>> considered as relayed candidate..
>>>
>>> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to th=
e
>>> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO
>>> relay.
>>>
>>> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo considere=
d
>>> as host address,
>>> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be als=
o
>>> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.
>>>
>>>
>>> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
>>> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
>>> exception for this case.
>>> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
>>> the host interface, as relay and not as host.
>>>
>>> Please comment/correct my thoughts.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Misi
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ice mailing list
>>> Ice@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

--001a114476c2cba314055abfab27
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


We have found that Teredo candidates are rarely opti=
mal, and often have high failure rates on checks, so that the "unrelia=
ble=C2=A0 connectiv
ity" advice in the dual sta=
ck document applies well to them.

On Oct 3, 2017 9:08 PM, "M=C3=A9sz=C3=
=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly" <misi@niif.hu> wrote:

      The application should make decision based on the gathered IP
      address, and if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO
      address and so "unreliable connectivity"?

    
Am I understand you correctly? 

    

    
On 2017-10-03 18:09=
, Bernard Aboba
      wrote:

    

    

      
Peter said:=C2=A0
        


        

        
"It sounds like this is =
more
            similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is
            that correct?"

        


          

        
        


          

        

          
   Applica=
tions should take special care to deprioritize network
   interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
   a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
   provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
   distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
   interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
   describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
   provide unreliable connectivity...

          

          
   Candidates with IP addresses from an unrelia=
ble interface should be
   ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
   dual-stack candidates.

        

      

      


        
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter
          Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
          wrote:

          

            
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought yo=
u
              were saying that there was a server giving out candidates
              (in which case I thought it could just mark it's
              candidates as relay).
              


              

              
It sounds like this is more similar to host
                candidates on a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correc=
t?

              

                

                  


                    

                      
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM
                        M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu>
                        wrote:

                      

                      

                        
 Hi Peter
                          et al.

                        


                          

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say
                              the candidates are relayed if they think
                              it's wise?

                          

                        

                        
 I assume
                          "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology i=
s the
                          "Teredo client".

                          Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo
                          Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an
                          IPv6 address 

                          It seems to be a host candidate, because it
                          setups local adapter/interface with IPv6
                          address.

                          

                          ICE will detect it as host candidate.

                          It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled
                          and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be
                          treated as relayed.

                          

                          e.g.

                          Chrome: 57.0.2987.133=


                          
3123958951 1=
 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host gene=
ration 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50





                        

                        

                          
Why does this need to
                            be in the ICE spec?

                          

                        

                        
 TEREDO i=
s
                          an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is
                          a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in
                          many aspects, 

                          but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO th=
at
                          is not optimal.

                          

                          ICE spec defines:

                          
    
                            
  • host candidates 
    • 
                          

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by =
binding
                            to ports on an IP address

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (p=
hysical
                            or virtual, including VPN

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host.

                          
                          
    
                            
  • type preferences.
    • 
                          

                          
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and L=
ocal Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

                          

                          The Spec recommends, type preference for host
                          candidates, and TEREDO according current spec
                          definition is a "host candidate".

                          According these, Teredo as it is local host
                          IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" =
with
                          the highest type preference.

                          VS.

                          Relayed with type preference 0.

                          

                          IMHO spec should address this edge case where
                          it seems to be host candidate but it is more
                          related to tunneled/relayed.

                          

                          

                          Thanks,

                          Misi

                        


                          

                          
On
                            2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoi=
nts
                              just say the candidates are relayed if
                              they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this=
 need
                              to be in the ICE spec?

                            

                            

                              
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44
                                PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu>
                                wrote:

                              

                              
Hi,

                                

                                Please correct me if I totally
                                misunderstand the situation, but

                                

                                AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE
                                as a host candidate and

                                according it, we have to use the host
                                local type preference for it.

                                

                                (That seems to be logical because it is
                                on the host interface.)

                                

                                

                                IMHO that is not the right behavior,
                                because TEREDO is doing also relaying,

                                and should be not considered as host
                                candidate type rather consider it

                                as relayed type.

                                

                                I can configure a very close TURN relay
                                in WebRTC UA, but in the other

                                hand I can not set the TEREDO relay
                                location,

                                because it depends on the network
                                provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

                                

                                Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.

                                On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by
                                default, and all such home users

                                with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6
                                address configured.

                                

                                My experience was that my peers are
                                located in Hungary and I set a very

                                close Hungarian TURN server,
                                surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay
                                in

                                UK.... :-(

                                

                                If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying,
                                then I think TEREDO should also

                                considered as relayed candidate..

                                

                                If I have very close nice low latency
                                TURN service, that is close to the

                                communication peers, than I don't want
                                to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

                                

                                Actually according to the actual ICE
                                behavior, because Teredo considered

                                as host address,

                                ICE will definitely choose and use
                                TEREDO relay, even if it will be also

                                relayed like TURN, and may even adds
                                more latency than the TURN.

                                

                                

                                All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc
                                should clarify this case, and

                                because TEREDO is also relaying, so I
                                propose to define in the text an

                                exception for this case.

                                Consider TEREDO candidate type
                                preference even if it is discovered on

                                the host interface, as relay and not as
                                host.

                                

                                Please comment/correct my thoughts.

                                

                                Thanks,

                                

                                Misi

                                

                                

                                ______________________________________=
_________

                                Ice mailing list

                                Ice@ietf.org

                                https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/ice

                              

                            

                          

                          

                        

                      

                    

                  

                

              

            

            

            _______________________________________________

            Ice mailing list

            Ice@ietf.org<=
/a>

            https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice<=
/a>

            

          

        

        

      

    

    

  






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To: ICE WG 
References: 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
Message-ID: <8c513dde-b8a2-f382-8ebd-5e2d63ac4b71@stpeter.im>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 20:00:13 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: ICE WG 
Message-ID: <8c513dde-b8a2-f382-8ebd-5e2d63ac4b71@stpeter.im>
Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
References: 
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On 10/1/17 12:02 AM, Peter Thatcher wrote:
> (in case you ignore the last once because of the erroneous title)
>=20
>=20
> We are starting a 3-week Working Group Last Call for ICE bis:
>=20
> =C2=A0
>=20
> _https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12_
>=20
>=20
> =C2=A0Please review the draft and provide any comments you may have on =
the
> document by Oct 21, 2017.

I've sent a number of editorial suggestions to the authors. I have only
a few technical comments.

=C2=A74.3 says:

   The exchange of parameters is symmetric; both agents need to send the
   same set of attributes as defined above.

What happens if the agents don't follow that advice? Do they need to
terminate ICE processing or return an error?

=C2=A74.4 says:

   Certain middleboxes, such as ALGs, may alter the ICE candidate
   information that breaks ICE.  If the using protocol is vulnerable to
   this kind of changes, called ICE mismatch, the responding agent needs
   to detect this and signal this back to the initiating agent.  The
   details on whether this is needed and how it is done is defined by
   the usage specifications.  One exception to the above is that an
   initiating agent would never indicate ICE mismatch.

In general, how can the responding agent determine that such breakage
has occurred if it doesn't know what the initiating agent sent? And why
wouldn't the initiating agent also have some responsibility for
detecting ICE mismatch in the other direction (i.e., from the responding
agent to the initiating agent)?

=C2=A76.1.3 says:

   The controlling ICE agent MUST include the ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
   in a Binding request.  The controlled ICE agent MUST include the ICE-
   CONTROLLING attribute in a Binding request.

However, =C2=A76.2.5.1 says:

   If the Binding request generates a 487 (Role Conflict) error
   response, and if the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
   in the request, the agent MUST switch to the controlling role.  If
   the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in the request,
   the agent MUST switch to the controlled role.

The combination of these two paragraphs seems to say that the
controlling agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute in its
Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlling
agent must switch to the controlling role [sic] - likewise, that the
controlled agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in its
Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlled
agent must switch to the controlled role [sic]. Am I missing something
obvious? Is there an error in =C2=A76.1.3?

Peter


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From nobody Thu Oct  5 00:35:14 2017
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , ICE WG 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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Hi Peter,

Thanks for your comments! Please see inline.

>I've sent a number of editorial suggestions to the authors. I have only
>a few technical comments.
>
>=A74.3 says:
>
>   The exchange of parameters is symmetric; both agents need to send the
>   same set of attributes as defined above.
>
>What happens if the agents don't follow that advice? Do they need to
>terminate ICE processing or return an error?

I am not even sure the text above is true. Why would both agents need to
send the same set? An ICE lite implementation for sure won=B9t do it.

----

>=A74.4 says:
>
>   Certain middleboxes, such as ALGs, may alter the ICE candidate
>   information that breaks ICE.  If the using protocol is vulnerable to
>   this kind of changes, called ICE mismatch, the responding agent needs
>   to detect this and signal this back to the initiating agent.  The
>   details on whether this is needed and how it is done is defined by
>   the usage specifications.  One exception to the above is that an
>   initiating agent would never indicate ICE mismatch.
>
>In general, how can the responding agent determine that such breakage
>has occurred if it doesn't know what the initiating agent sent? And why
>wouldn't the initiating agent also have some responsibility for
>detecting ICE mismatch in the other direction (i.e., from the responding
>agent to the initiating agent)?

First, I think the section title is misleading. It=B9s not about verifying
ICE support.

Could we simply remove the whole section?

Then, if we do that, we should also remove the 3(?) other occurrences of
=B3ICE mismatch=B2.

----

>=A76.1.3 says:
>
>   The controlling ICE agent MUST include the ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
>   in a Binding request.  The controlled ICE agent MUST include the ICE-
>   CONTROLLING attribute in a Binding request.
>
>However, =A76.2.5.1 says:
>
>   If the Binding request generates a 487 (Role Conflict) error
>   response, and if the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
>   in the request, the agent MUST switch to the controlling role.  If
>   the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in the request,
>   the agent MUST switch to the controlled role.
>
>The combination of these two paragraphs seems to say that the
>controlling agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute in its
>Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlling
>agent must switch to the controlling role [sic] - likewise, that the
>controlled agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in its
>Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlled
>agent must switch to the controlled role [sic]. Am I missing something
>obvious? Is there an error in =A76.1.3?

Not sure I follow. Need to read more.

Regards,

Christer


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To: Christer Holmberg , ICE WG 
References: 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 08:34:28 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Christer Holmberg , ICE WG 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical
 comments
References: 
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On 10/5/17 1:35 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>=20
> Thanks for your comments! Please see inline.
>=20
>> I've sent a number of editorial suggestions to the authors. I have onl=
y
>> a few technical comments.
>>
>> =C2=A74.3 says:
>>
>>   The exchange of parameters is symmetric; both agents need to send th=
e
>>   same set of attributes as defined above.
>>
>> What happens if the agents don't follow that advice? Do they need to
>> terminate ICE processing or return an error?
>=20
> I am not even sure the text above is true. Why would both agents need t=
o
> send the same set? An ICE lite implementation for sure won=C2=B9t do it=
=2E

Good point. In fact, the text also says:

      Related Address and Port:  The related IP address and port of the
         candidate.  These MAY be omitted or set to invalid values if
         the agent does not want to reveal them, e.g., for privacy
         reasons.

So I'd agree that we can remove the symmetric requirement.

>> =C2=A74.4 says:
>>
>>   Certain middleboxes, such as ALGs, may alter the ICE candidate
>>   information that breaks ICE.  If the using protocol is vulnerable to=

>>   this kind of changes, called ICE mismatch, the responding agent need=
s
>>   to detect this and signal this back to the initiating agent.  The
>>   details on whether this is needed and how it is done is defined by
>>   the usage specifications.  One exception to the above is that an
>>   initiating agent would never indicate ICE mismatch.
>>
>> In general, how can the responding agent determine that such breakage
>> has occurred if it doesn't know what the initiating agent sent? And wh=
y
>> wouldn't the initiating agent also have some responsibility for
>> detecting ICE mismatch in the other direction (i.e., from the respondi=
ng
>> agent to the initiating agent)?
>=20
> First, I think the section title is misleading. It=C2=B9s not about ver=
ifying
> ICE support.
>=20
> Could we simply remove the whole section?

That seems fine.

> Then, if we do that, we should also remove the 3(?) other occurrences o=
f
> =C2=B3ICE mismatch=C2=B2.
>=20
> ----
>=20
>> =C2=A76.1.3 says:
>>
>>   The controlling ICE agent MUST include the ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
>>   in a Binding request.  The controlled ICE agent MUST include the ICE=
-
>>   CONTROLLING attribute in a Binding request.
>>
>> However, =C2=A76.2.5.1 says:
>>
>>   If the Binding request generates a 487 (Role Conflict) error
>>   response, and if the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
>>   in the request, the agent MUST switch to the controlling role.  If
>>   the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in the request,
>>   the agent MUST switch to the controlled role.
>>
>> The combination of these two paragraphs seems to say that the
>> controlling agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute in i=
ts
>> Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlling
>> agent must switch to the controlling role [sic] - likewise, that the
>> controlled agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in i=
ts
>> Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlled
>> agent must switch to the controlled role [sic]. Am I missing something=

>> obvious? Is there an error in =C2=A76.1.3?
>=20
> Not sure I follow. Need to read more.

Unless I'm missing something obvious, I think that ICE-CONTROLLED and
ICE-CONTROLLING need to be swapped in =C2=A76.1.3. That is, it should say=
:

   The controlling ICE agent MUST include the ICE-CONTROLLING attribute
   in a Binding request.  The controlled ICE agent MUST include the ICE-
   CONTROLLED attribute in a Binding request.

Peter


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , ICE WG 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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Hi,

=8A

>>=20
>>> =A76.1.3 says:
>>>
>>>   The controlling ICE agent MUST include the ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
>>>   in a Binding request.  The controlled ICE agent MUST include the ICE-
>>>   CONTROLLING attribute in a Binding request.
>>>
>>> However, =A76.2.5.1 says:
>>>
>>>   If the Binding request generates a 487 (Role Conflict) error
>>>   response, and if the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute
>>>   in the request, the agent MUST switch to the controlling role.  If
>>>   the ICE agent included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in the request,
>>>   the agent MUST switch to the controlled role.
>>>
>>> The combination of these two paragraphs seems to say that the
>>> controlling agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLED attribute in
>>>its
>>> Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlling
>>> agent must switch to the controlling role [sic] - likewise, that the
>>> controlled agent would have included an ICE-CONTROLLING attribute in
>>>its
>>> Binding request, and if there is a role conflict then the controlled
>>> agent must switch to the controlled role [sic]. Am I missing something
>>> obvious? Is there an error in =A76.1.3?
>>=20
>> Not sure I follow. Need to read more.
>
>Unless I'm missing something obvious, I think that ICE-CONTROLLED and
>ICE-CONTROLLING need to be swapped in =A76.1.3. That is, it should say:
>
>   The controlling ICE agent MUST include the ICE-CONTROLLING attribute
>   in a Binding request.  The controlled ICE agent MUST include the ICE-
>   CONTROLLED attribute in a Binding request.


Aaah, now I see it. Of course :)

Regards,

Christer


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Thatcher , ICE WG 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - How to select a candidate pair
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - How to select a candidate pair
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--_000_D5FD33E423602christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi ICE lovers,

Every now and then there has been discussions on what the difference betwee=
n "nominated candidate pair" and =93selected candidate pair" it, who select=
s etc.

The draft currently contains the following definition for selected pair:

   "Selected Pair, Selected Candidate Pair:  The candidate pair selected
         by an ICE agent for sending media.  Each of its candidates is
         called the selected candidate.  Before a pair has been selected,
         any valid candidate pair can be used for sending and receiving
         media."
That definition looks ok to me. However, what is unclear is exactly how the=
 selection is done.

The draft contains e.g., following wording:

"selected by ICE=94 - it is unclear what this means.

"If the peer is a full agent, the lite agent selects a candidate pair when =
the full agent nominates it.=94 - this make it sound like the controlled ag=
ent does the selection.


My suggestion for the definition of how the selection is done:

=93Once the controlling agent has nominated a candidate pair, and the contr=
olled agent has accepted the nomination (by sending a successful response t=
o the
binding request with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute) the candidate pair become=
s the selected candidate pair.=94

In addition, the draft (especially section 5.1.4.2) uses =91select candidat=
e=92 wording with another meaning, which is confusing, so we may want to ch=
ange to something else. Peter=92s PR did such changes, but we may need more=
.

Regards,

Christer


From: Ice > on behalf of =
"pthatcher@google.com" >
Date: Sunday 1 October 2017 at 09:02
To: "ice@ietf.org" >
Subject: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12


(in case you ignore the last once because of the erroneous title)


We are starting a 3-week Working Group Last Call for ICE bis:



https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12


 Please review the draft and provide any comments you may have on the docum=
ent by Oct 21, 2017.



Comments should be sent to the document authors and to the ICE WG list. If =
you review the document but do not have any comments, please send a note to=
 that effect as well.

--_000_D5FD33E423602christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi ICE lo=
vers,







Every now=
 and then there has been discussions on what the difference between "n=
ominated candidate pair" and =93selected candidate pair" it, who =
selects etc.







The draft=
 currently contains the following definition for selected pair:







 &nb=
sp; "Selected Pair, Selected Candidate Pair:  The candidate =
pair selected


 &nb=
sp;       by an ICE agent for sending media.&=
nbsp; Each of its candidates is


 &nb=
sp;       called the selected candidate. =
; Before a pair has been selected,


 &nb=
sp;       any valid candidate pair can be use=
d for sending and receiving


 &nb=
sp;       media."


That defi=
nition looks ok to me. However, what is unclear is exactly how the selectio=
n is done.







The draft=
 contains e.g., following wording:







"sel=
ected by ICE=94 - it is unclear what this means.







"If =
the peer is a full agent, the lite agent selects a candidate pair when the =
full agent nominates it.=94 - this make it sound like the controlled agent =
does the selection.












My sugges=
tion for the definition of how the selection is done:







=93Once t=
he controlling agent has nominated a candidate pair, and the controlled age=
nt has accepted the nomination (by sending a successful response to the

binding r=
equest with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute) the candidate pair becomes the sel=
ected candidate pair.=94







In additi=
on, the draft (especially section 5.1.4.2) uses =91select candidate=92 word=
ing with another meaning, which is confusing, so we may want to change to s=
omething else. Peter=92s PR did such changes,
 but we may need more.







Regards,<=
/div>






Christer<=
/div>















From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "pthatcher@google.com" <pthatcher@google.com>

Date: Sunday 1 October 2017 at 09:0=
2

To: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.=
org>

Subject: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-=
ice-rfc5245bis-12
















(in c=
ase you ignore the last once because of the erroneous title)









We ar=
e starting a 3-week Working Group Last Call for ICE bis:





 



https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-ice-rfc5245bis-12











 Please review the draft and provide any comments you may have on the docum=
ent by Oct 21, 2017.




 



Comments should be sent to the document authors and to t=
he ICE WG list. If you review the document but do not have any comments, pl=
ease send a note to that effect as
 well. 











--_000_D5FD33E423602christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Harald Alvestrand 
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Subject: [Ice] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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I have read through draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - both as a generic
reviewer and with the perspective of "does this do what RTCWEB requires".

I believe this document is good enough to publish, but could be improved
somewhat (usually, all documents can).

Most important points:

* The protocol has been designed and revised to be usable with non-media
data, but the introduction and abstract do not reflect this. Expunging
the media bias from the body of the document is probably not worth it,
but the intro and abstract should mention it.
* Security considerations should mention the problem that ICE reveals
addresses that might otherwise remain hidden, and that this is a privacy
concern.
* The document has removed all the SDP specific parts (good), but the
requirements it places on the negotiation mechanism aren’t collectively
documented anywhere. A section describing this would help comprehension
for people developing signalling protocols for use with ICE.
* The definition of “component” talks about a component having one
address. I believe that in current usage, it should be defined to have
an address pair. (non-symmetric RTP is dead).

The rest of my suggested changes are nits, I think.

I enclose the full text of my review as PDF; apart from the stuff above,
I don't think those comments needs much WG discussion. Editor: Please
raise issues if you think some do need it!

Hope this is helpful.

Harald

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From: Christer Holmberg 
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CC: "ice@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Pull Request - Peter Saint-Andre's WGLC comments
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Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Pull Request - Peter Saint-Andre's WGLC comments
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--_000_D605322723B9Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

I=92ve started to implement the changes based on the WGLC comments.

The following PR implement the changes based on Peter Saint-Andre=92s comme=
nt:

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/45

Regards,

Christer

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Hi,







I=92ve started to implement the changes based on the WGLC comments.






The following PR implement the changes based on Peter Saint-Andre=92s =
comment:













Regards,







Christer




--_000_D605322723B9Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Selected pair clarification
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Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Selected pair clarification
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--_000_D606426D23C27christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

I am working on a PR to clarify =93selected pair=94.

Previously my assumption was that a candidate pair becomes selected once th=
e nomination binding request succeeds.

However, when looking closer at the text, it seems like pairs becomes selec=
ted once a pair for every component associated with a media stream has been=
 successfully nominated.

So, in case you have components for both RTP and RTCP, you need to successf=
ully nominate pairs for both before they become selected.

My assumption above is based on the following text in section 7.1.1:

   "Eventually, if the nominations succeed, there will be only a single
   nominated pair in the VALID LIST for each component.  Once the state
   of the CHECK LIST is set to Completed, that exact pair is selected by
   ICE for sending and receiving media for that component.=94

And, as described in section 7.1.2, the state of the check list is set to C=
ompleted once there is a nominated pair for each component.

Do people share the understanding above?

Regards,

Christer



--_000_D606426D23C27christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,







I am working on a PR to clarify =93selected pair=94.







Previously my assumption was that a candidate pair becomes selected on=
ce the nomination binding request succeeds.







However, when looking closer at the text, it seems like pairs becomes =
selected once a pair for every component associated with a media stream has=
 been successfully nominated.







So, in case you have components for both RTP and RTCP, you need to suc=
cessfully nominate pairs for both before they become selected.







My assumption above is based on the following text in section 7.1.1:








   "Eventually, if the nominations succeed, there will =
be only a single


   nominated pair in the VALID LIST for each component. &nbs=
p;Once the state


   of the CHECK LIST is set to Completed, that exact pair is=
 selected by


   ICE for sending and receiving media for that component.=
=94









And, as described in section 7.1.2, the state of the check list is set=
 to Completed once there is a nominated pair for each component.







Do people share the understanding above?







Regards,







Christer














--_000_D606426D23C27christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Taylor Brandstetter 
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 15:14:55 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Peter Thatcher 
Cc: ICE WG 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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I reviewed, and mostly only found minor editorial issues:

   - Section 4.1 is called "f Implementation"; is this meant to say "Full
   Implementation Procedures", like the corresponding "Lite Implementation
   Procedures" section?
   - The full/lite sections have some duplication; for example, defining
   "component ID" and "foundation". Maybe the duplicated parts could be moved
   to their own section.
   - "Foundation" is defined as "a sequence of up to 32 characters". Do we
   define what characters are allowed (or is that not necessary)?
   - Would be nice to elaborate a bit more on the 3PCC scenarios that
   involve role conflict. "For example, both endpoints may believe themselves
   to be the initiator, because the 3PCC entity acts as the responding agent,
   relaying ICE parameters between the endpoints."
   - "a check list with at least one pair in the Waiting state is called
   "active", while a check list with all pairs in the frozen state is called
   "Frozen"." The rest of the document never refers to check lists being
   "active" or "Frozen", so this sentence should be removed. I think I've
   pointed this out in the past.

The only somewhat significant issue I found (which is what Christer's
recent email is about) is the definition of "selected pair":

   The selected pair for a component of a media stream is:
>
>    o  empty if the state of the CHECK LIST for that media stream is
>       Running, and there is no previous selected pair for that component
>       due to an ICE restart
>
>    o  equal to the previous selected pair for a component of a media
>       stream if the state of the CHECK LIST for that media stream is
>
>       Running, and there was a previous selected pair for that component
>       due to an ICE restart
>
>
This defines when the selected pair is empty, but not how it ends up
non-empty. I think the intention is "if check list is Completed, the
selected pairs are the nominated pairs," but this should be stated
explicitly.

Lastly, one issue that was brought up in the past and never resolved (to my
knowledge): what happens if there's a role conflict, and the tiebreakers
are the same? Right now it looks like both endpoints end up stuck in the
controlling role. I'd suggest just saying "pick a new tiebreaker value". It
may be a corner case, but it doesn't seem like it would take more than one
sentence to fix it.

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Peter Thatcher 
wrote:

> (in case you ignore the last once because of the erroneous title)
>
>
> We are starting a 3-week Working Group Last Call for ICE bis:
>
>
>
> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
> *
>
>
>  Please review the draft and provide any comments you may have on the
> document by Oct 21, 2017.
>
>
>
> Comments should be sent to the document authors and to the ICE WG list. If
> you review the document but do not have any comments, please send a note to
> that effect as well.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

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I reviewed, and mostly only found minor editorial issues:<=
div>
  • Section 4.1 is called "f Implementation"; is this mea=
nt to say "Full Implementation Procedures", like the correspondin=
g "Lite Implementation Procedures" section?
  • The full/lite=
 sections have some duplication; for example, defining "component ID&q=
uot; and "foundation". Maybe the duplicated parts could be moved =
to their own section.
  • "Foundation" is defined as "a =
sequence of up to 32 characters". Do we define what characters are all=
owed (or is that not necessary)?
  • Would be nice to elaborate a bit m=
ore on the 3PCC scenarios that involve role conflict. "For example, bo=
th endpoints may believe themselves to be the initiator, because the 3PCC e=
ntity acts as the responding agent, relaying ICE parameters between the end=
points."
  • "a check list with at least one pair in the Wait=
ing state is called "active", while a check list with all pairs i=
n the frozen state is called "Frozen"." The rest of the docu=
ment never refers to check lists being "active" or "Frozen&q=
uot;, so this sentence should be removed. I think I've pointed this out=
 in the past.
The only somewhat significant issue I found (wh=
ich is what Christer's recent email is about) is the definition of &quo=
t;selected pair":

   The selected pair for a component of a media s=
tream is:

   o  empty if the state of the CHECK LIST for that media stream is
      Running, and there is no previous selected pair for that component
      due to an ICE restart

   o  equal to the previous selected pair for a component of a media
      stream if the state of the CHECK LIST for that media stream is

      Running, and there was a previous selected pair for tha=
t component
      due to an ICE restart

This defi=
nes when the selected pair is empty, but not how it ends up non-empty. I th=
ink the intention is "if check list is Completed, the selected pairs a=
re the nominated pairs," but this should be stated explicitly.

Lastly, one issue that was brought up in the past and nev=
er resolved (to my knowledge): what happens if there's a role conflict,=
 and the tiebreakers are the same? Right now it looks like both endpoints e=
nd up stuck in the controlling role. I'd suggest just saying "pick=
 a new tiebreaker value". It may be a corner case, but it doesn't =
seem like it would take more than one sentence to fix it.
=


On Sat, Sep 30, 2=
017 at 11:02 PM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wr=
ote:
(in case you ignore the last once because of the erroneous t=
itle)

We are starting a 3-week Wo=
rking Group Last Call for ICE bis:
=C2=A0
https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12

=C2=A0Please review the draft and provide any comments you ma=
y have on the document by Oct 21, 2017. 
=C2=A0
Comments should be sent to the document aut=
hors and to the ICE WG list. If you review the document but do not have any=
 comments, please send a note to that effect as well. 


_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice





--001a114dacdc84ca78055b891a65--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
CC: "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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Hi Harald,

Some feedback on your comments.

>Most important points:
>
>* The protocol has been designed and revised to be usable with non-media
>data, but the introduction and abstract do not reflect this. Expunging
>the media bias from the body of the document is probably not worth it,
>but the intro and abstract should mention it.

We COULD do a search/replace operation, and replace =B3media=B2 with =B3dat=
a=B2.
We would end up with terms like =B3data stream=B2, =B3data packets=B2 etc, =
but I
guess that it would be ok.

In the =B3data definition=B2 we would then describe that data includes both
RTP and non-RTP data.

>* Security considerations should mention the problem that ICE reveals
>addresses that might otherwise remain hidden, and that this is a privacy
>concern.

I would be glad if someone could provide text for that, to make sure we
get it right.

>* The document has removed all the SDP specific parts (good), but the
>requirements it places on the negotiation mechanism aren=B9t collectively
>documented anywhere. A section describing this would help comprehension
>for people developing signalling protocols for use with ICE.

I can think of the following requirements:

REQ: There MUST be a mechanism for ICE agents to determine whether the
remote peer supports ICE


REQ: There MUST be a mechanism for ICE agents to exchange candidate
information

REQ: There MUST be a mechanism for ICE agents to indicate an ICE restart
to the remote peer


>* The definition of =B3component=B2 talks about a component having one
>address. I believe that in current usage, it should be defined to have
>an address pair. (non-symmetric RTP is dead).

Or, should we say =B3having one candidate pair=B2?

 A component is a piece of a data stream
requiring a candidate pair; a data stream may require
multiple components, each of which has to work for the data stream as
a whole to work.  For media streams based on RTP, unless RTP and RTCP
are multiplexed in the same port, there are two components per media
stream -- one for RTP, and one for RTCP.


Regarding non-symmetric RTP, the spec says that the selected candidate
pair MUST be used for sending and receiving media, so I guess that means
symmetric RTP. Perhaps it would be good to point that out.

Regards,

Christer


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To: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Harald's PDF comments
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--_002_D60A616223E6Dchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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(RTCWEB list removed, to avoid cross-posting)

Hi Harald,

Below are my replies to the comments you provided in the PDF document:

---

Abstract
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>Is   it   really   correct   to   cite   this   protocol   as   being
>only   for   multimedia?   Suggestion:   replace
>=B3multimedia=B2   with   =B3communication=B2.   This   is   in   line   w=
ith
>bullet   1   of   section   21   -   =B3generalized=B2.

---

Section   1   -   Introduction
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>Similar   to   the   above:   In   order   to   reduce   the   scope   of
>  changes,   suggest   adding   to   the   end   of
>the   introduction:
>=B3This   specification   may   be   used   both   for   multimedia
>sessions   and   other   types   of
>communication.=B2

I suggest to replace =B3multimedia=B2 with =B3communication=B2 (there are o=
nly 5
instances of =B3multimedia=B2), and to add the sentence above to the end of
the Introduction.

---

Section   3   -   Terminology
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>Terminology:   =B3Component=B2:   =B3A   component   is   a   piece   of  =
 a
>media   stream   requiring   a   single
>transport   address=B2   -   I   think   this   should   be   =B3a   singl=
e
>pair   of   transport   addresses=B2,   or   perhaps
>even   use   the   defined   term   =B3candidate   pair=B2.
>
			=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
>Suggested   reformulation:   =B3A   component   is   a   piece   of   a
>media   stream   that   has   to   be
>assigned   a   single   candidate   pair,   which   can   be   used   by
> no   other   component,   before   being
>used   for   transmitting   part   of   a   media   stream=B2.

Looks ok. Of course, if we make the =B3media=B2/=B3data=B2 change that you
suggested, it would say =B3a piece of a data stream=B2.


>=B3User=B2,   as   used   in   section   4.1.1   =B3prior   to   alerting =
  the
>  user=B2,   is   not   defined.

I suggest that we say =B3prior to alerting the user of the application
associated with the ICE session=B2.

				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09


			=09
		=09
	=09
=09
---


=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   4   -   ICE   candidate   gathering   and   exchange
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>4.1   -   part   of   this   section   title   is   missing.   It   may
>have   been   intended   to   be   =B3Full
>Implementation=B2,   since   4.2   is   =B3Lite=B2.

It shall be =B3Full=B2. Will be fixed.


>4.1.1   -   nit:   =B3Every   candidate   is   a   transport   address=B2
>->   =B3has   a   transport   address=B2.

Will be fixed as suggested.


>4.1.1   -   should   one   mention   that   candidates   don=B9t   live
>forever?   (NAT   timeout,   interfaces   going
>up   or   down,   network   mobility)

Does it belong here, or could we add something to section 10?


>4.1.1.1   -   should   =B3Host   candidates   corresponding   to   IPv6
>link-local   addresses   MUST   NOT   be
>gathered=B2   be   its   own   bullet,   possibly   placed   last   with
>a   condition   that   these   are   only   gathered
>if   there   is   no   global   IPv6   address   on   the   same
>interface?   Or   is   this   strictly   in   order   to   prevent
>location   tracking?

I will place it in its own bullet.

I am not an expert on IP addressing, but I don=B9t see how a local-link
address could be used for location tracking more than other types of
addresses. My understanding is that we don=B9t want to include them because
they are not globally unique.


>4.1.1.1   -   temporary   and   permanent   IPv6   addresses   are   not
> mentioned.
>Draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports   section   3.3   recommends   discarding
>permanent   addresses,   as
>per   RFC   6724.   Should   this   advice   be   added   to   this
>section?

I guess we could copy the following sentence to the end of the section,
saying:

 "The IPv6 default address selection specification [RFC6724] specifies
  that temporary addresses [RFC4941] are to be preferred over permanent
  addresses."



>4.1.1.2   -   paragraph   3   ends   =B3Allocate   requests   SHOULD   be
>authenticated   using   a=B2   -
>something=B9s   missing.   RFC   5245   had   =B3 long-term   credential
>obtained   by   the   client   through   some
>other   means.=B2

I can=B9t remember that we would have decided to remove that, so I=B9ll put
the 5245 text back.


>Paragraph   4   -   first   occurence   of   =B3Ta=B2.   Please   expand.
>(Suggest   adding   a   paragraph:   The
>gathering   process   is   controlled   using   a   timer   called
>=B3Ta=B2).

I will fixed as suggested.


>4.1.1.4   -   host   candidates   die   too.   Suggest   adding   a
>paragraph:   =B3Host   candidates   don=B9t   time
>out,   but   the   addresses   may   change   or   disappear   for   a
>number   of   reasons.   The   agent
>SHOULD   monitor   the   interfaces   it   uses,   invalidate
>candidates   whose   base   has   gone   away,
>and   acquire   new   candidates   as   appropriate   when   new
>interfaces   appear.=B2

I will add the suggested text.


>4.1.2   grammar   nit   -   =B3since   both   agents   will   not   be
>coordinated   in   their   checks=B2   ->   =B3since   the
>agents   will   not   be   coordinated   in   their   checks=B2.

I will fix as suggested.


>4.1.2.1   obsolete   reference   to   RFC   3484   for   =B3precedence
>value   for   IP   addresses=B2.   Note   that
>the   default   precedence   table   in   6724   section   2.1   is
>quite   different   from   the   one   in   3484,   so
				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
>switching   the   reference   will   give   different   candidate
>orderings.   (Also,   6724   is   referenced   by
>section   4.2,   so   this   is   likely   an   oversight.)

I don=B9t find the references to RFC 3483.


>4.1.2.2   should   the   paragraph   mention   that   VPN   candidates
>and   local   LAN   candidates   can
>have   different   local   preferences   too?   I   think   their   order
>  is   application   (or   even   user)
>dependent,   but   the   user=B9s   preference   is   likely   to   be
>quite   strong   (when   using   VPN   for
>corp-LAN   connectivity:   don=B9t   use   VPN   when   LAN   connection
>is   available   -   when   using   VPN
>for   location   hiding:   don=B9t   use   host   at   all   when   VPN
>is   available   -   but   details   are   out   of   scope
>for   this   specification)

I have no input on this. Feel free to suggest text, and if no-one else has
an issue I will add it.


>4.3   nit:   Since   the   section   says   that   encoding   is   out
>of   scope,   the   title   should   be   changed   to
>=B3Exchanging   the   Candidate   Information=B2.

I will fix as suggested.


>4.3   =B3Related   Address=B2   is   not   defined   previously.   A
>pointer   to   section   B.3   would   be
>appropriate.   (It   seems   equally   undefined   there   what   is
>supposed   to   be   sent.   This   seems
>doubtful   for   interoperability.   Should   it   be   punted   to   a
>higher   layer,   as   in   =B3Use   or   non-use   of
>the   Related   Address   is   defined   by   the   ICE   usage=B2?)

I don=B9t think we should reference an appendix for a definition.


>4.4   Grammar   nit   -   =B3may   alter   the   ICE   candidate
>information   that   breaks   ICE=B2   ->   =B3may   alter
>the   ICE   candidate   information   in   ways   that   break   ICE=B2.

It was suggested that we should remove the whole section. However, it has
later been suggested off-line that we should keep the section, but rename
the title.

				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09
But, if we keep the section, I will fix the text as suggested.



---

=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   5.   ICE   Candidate   Processing

>5.1.1   determining   role   -   the   =B3Both   lite=B2   bullet   is   t=
he
> only   one   that   mentions   that   both   agents
>will   believe   they   are   controlled   or   controlling.   I   think
> this   is   true   for   both   case   1   and   3.
>
>I   believe   this   paragraph   belongs   at   a   higher   level,   and
>  should   be   reformulated   as:
>
>=B3The   signaling   protocol   enabling   the   candidate   exchange
>MUST   allow   the   agents   to
>determine   which   of   the   agents   is   the   Initiating   Agent,
>and   whether   or   not   the   peer   agent   is
>Full   or   Lite=B2.   This   can   also   replace   the   second   NOTE,
>and   avoids   reference   to   =B3glare=B2   (that=B9s
>the   signalling   protocol=B9s   problem).
>(I   don=B9t   see   why   one   shouldn=B9t   allow   the   6.3.1.1
>procedure   to   apply   in   this   case   too,   in   which
>case   the   signalling   protocol   requirement   can   be   a   SHOULD,
>  with   fallback   to   6.3.1.1,   which
>removes   the   need   to   call   out   3pcc   as   a   separate   case.
>  But   that   may   be   a   too   large   change   at
>this   stage.)

I want to separate the high-level procedures and the signalling protocol
requirements.

My suggestion would be to move the text out of the bullet list. We can
then reference the section that talks about role conflicts for more
information.


>5.1.2.1   grammar   nit:   =B3is   neither   Completed   yet   nor   Faile=
d
>  yet=B2   -   remove   the   first   =B3yet=B2.

I will fix as suggested.


>5.1.2.2   spell:   para   1   -   educed   ->   reduced

I will fix as suggested.


>5.1.2.6   state   procedure,   bullet   5:   =B3in   the   first   list
>(ordered   by   the   check   list   set)=B2   doesn=B9t   make
>sense.   =B3In   the   first   list   according   to   the   usage-defined
> check   list   set   order=B2   would   make
>sense.   The   order   is   ICE   usage   controlled   per   bullet   2
>of   the   same   list.

I will fix as suggested.

>5.1.4.1   This   paragraph   would   be   clearer   if   it   added   the
>  words   =B3The   queue   is   initially   empty,
>and   will   have   candidates   entered   as   part   of   the
>procedures   in   section   6.=B2

I will fix as suggested.


				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
>5.2   Grammar   nit   =B3On   determining   ....   means   ...=B2   is
>ungrammatical.   Suggested   rephrasing:   =B3If
>the   lite   implementation   is   the   controlling   agent   (which
>will   only   happen   if   the   peer   agent   is
>also   a   lite   implementation),   it   selects   .....   and   then
>updates   =8A.=B2

I will fix as suggested.


---

=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   6.   Performing   connectivity   checks
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


>Nit:   Intro   paragraph:   doubled   =B3to   to=B2.

Will remove.


>6.2.3.   Diffserv   treatment   -   doesn=B9t   address   the   case   of
>media   wishing   to   utilize   multiple
>DSCP   markings   in   its   media   stream
>(draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos,   table   1).   Suggest   adding   =B3If
>multiple   DSCP   markings   are   used   on   the   media   packets,
>the   agent   SHOULD   choose   one   of
>them   for   use   with   the   connectivity   check.=B2

I will add the suggested sentence.


> 6.2.5.2.   Failure   -   nit:   =B3as   a   result   a   connectivity
>check=B2   -   missing   =B3of=B2

Will fix as suggested.


>Sections   6.3.1.3   =B3Learning   Peer   Reflexive   Candidates=B2   and
>section   6.3.1.4   =B3Triggered
>checks=B2   don=B9t   form   separate   procedures,   the   way   the   ot=
her
>  subsections   of   6.3.1   do.   I   suggest
>they   be   merged.

I THINK I see your point, but I am not sure I fully get it. What would you
call the merged section?


>6.2.5.2.2   describes   processing   ICMP   errors   for   connectivity
>checks.   ICMP   errors   are
>unauthenticated   and   easily   spoofable;   using   them   for
>shutting   down   communication   is   a   well
>known   vulnerability.

So, what do you suggest? That we remote the section, or that we keep the
section and say that ICMP errors shall not be processed for connectivity
check purposed?

>Timeout   would   seem   to   be   the   normal   outcome   of   a
>connectivity   check;   it   seems   strange   to
>hide   this   most   common   case   under   =B3Unrecoverable   STUN
>response=B2.   Suggest   raising   it   to   its
>own   section.

So, we should have the sections: =B3Unrecoverable STUN response=B2 and =B3S=
TUN
request timeout=B2.


>6.2.5.3   Success   doesn=B9t   say   =B3The   following   sections
>(6.2.5.3.1   to   6.2.5.3.4)   are   performed   in
>order=B2.   I   think   it   should,   since   other   sections   have
>subsections   (6.2.5   is   an   example)   where
>only   one   is   chosen   based   on   some   criteria.

I will add text.

>Section   6.2.5.3.2   introduces   the   =B3valid   list=B2,   which   is
>one   list   for   the   whole   check   list   set.

The intention is to say that there is one valid list for each media stream.

>Section   6.3.2   introduces   the   =B3valid   list=B2   as   if   it   w=
as
> a   new   concept.   There   should   be   only   one,
>and   its   definition   probably   needs   to   be   lifted   higher   -
>  it=B9s   also   referenced   from   section   7.

				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09
I agree with you. I see what I can do.



---

=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   7   -   Concluding   ICE   processing
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>Section   7.1.1   starts   using   CHECK   LIST   and   VALID   LIST   in
>  uppercase,   but   inconsistently.
>
>Inconsistency   is   bad;   consider   lowercasing   them   all.

Peter T did a PR that was supposed to lowercase all, but the fix was not
complete. Will fix it.


>Nit:   nomiation   ->   nomination   (para   4).   Need   a   comma
>before   =B3and   for   selecting   a   pair=B2.

Will fix as suggested.


				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						=B3Ice2=B2   ice   option   needs   a   forward   reference,   since
this   is   the   first   mention,   and   definition
comes   later.

Will add a reference.


---

=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   10   -   Keepalives
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>The   text   is   unclear   about   whether   =B3An   agent   MAY   use
>another   value   for   Tr=B2   is   allowed   to
>override   the   =B3MUST   NOT   use   a   Tr   value   smaller   than   1=
5
>  seconds=B2.   I   think   it   doesn=B9t   (has   to
>be   more   than   15),   but   I=B9m   not   100%   that=B9s   the
>intended   meaning.

Would the following be more clear:

Agents SHOULD use a Tr value of 15 seconds. Agents MAY use a bigger value,
but MUST NOT use a value smaller than 15 seconds.

>This   spec   says   that   all   endpoints   MUST   send   keepalives,
>but   doesn=B9t   say   which   ones.

The text does say:

"ICE endpoints allow for STUN-based keepalives for UDP streams, and as
such, STUN keepalives MUST be used when an
   agent is a full ICE implementation and is communicating with a peer
that supports ICE (lite or full).=B2

>Draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness specifies a 30-second usage of
>STUN bind
>requests, for instance, but it=B9s not clear whether it uses STUN
>keepalives or not. Should this
>document say explicitly that the ICE Usage specifies which keepalives are
>used?

Well, I don=B9t think that would clarify whether consent-freshness uses STU=
N
keepalives or not, would it? :)


Perhaps we could say something like:

=B3ICE agents MUST by default use STUN keepalives. Individual ICE usages an=
d
ICE extensions MAY specify usage/extension-specific keepalives.=B2

---

=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   12   -   Receiving   media
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D

>=B3....   if   there   is   a   change   in   source   transport   address=
,
>  but   the   media   packets   come   from   the
>same   peer   agent,   this   SHOULD   NOT   be   treated   as   an
>SSRC   collision=B2.   Why   not   MUST
>NOT?

I have no idea. This is Magnus/Colin/Jonathan/Roni territory :)

---
				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09



=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
Section   14   setting   Ta   and   RTO
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D

>14.2   Ta   -   =B3the   agent   MUST   indicate   the   proposed   value
>to   its   peer   during   the   ICE   exchange=B2.
>The   term   =B3ICE   exchange=B2   is   never   defined;   I   think   it
>refers   to   the   exchange   of   candidates   via
>the   signalling   protocol.   Please   define   the   term.

I think =B3ICE exchange=B2 sounds strange, so I think we should use another
term. Perhaps we could say:

=B3during the establishment of the ICE session.=B2

---
				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09


=09
	=09
	=09
=09
=09
	=09
		=09
			=09
				=09
						Section   16   -   Security   Considerations:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>There   is   no   privacy   consideration   -   in   particular,   the
>privacy   impact   of   exposing   host-specific
>addresses   together   with   VPN   addresses   is   not   mentioned   or
>  addressed.
>
>Suggestion:   Add   a   section   saying   =B3The   process   of   probing
> for   candidates   reveals   the   source
>addresses   of   the   client   and   its   peer   to   any   on-network
> listening   attacker,   and   the   process   of
>exchanging   candidates   reveals   the   addresses   to   any   attacker
>  that   is   able   to   see   the
>negotiation.   Some   addresses,   such   as   the   server   reflexive
>addresses   gathered   through   the
>local   interface   of   VPN   users,   may   be   sensitive
>information.   If   these   potential   attacks   can=B9t   be
>mitigated,   the   implementation   may   want   to   institute
>controls   for   which   addresses   are
>revealed   to   the   negotiation   and/or   probing   process.   Such
>controls   need   to   be   specified   as
>part   of   the   ICE   usage.=B2

I will add the suggested text.

Again, Thank You very much for the review! :)

Regards,

Christer
				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09






				=09
			=09
		=09
	=09
=09











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From nobody Mon Oct 16 11:17:38 2017
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , ICE WG 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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To: Christer Holmberg , ICE WG 
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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Christer Holmberg , ICE WG 
Message-ID: <1c13cfb5-c08e-4394-1457-fed1b32b0c01@stpeter.im>
Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical
 comments
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On 10/16/17 12:17 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> ...
>=20
>>>> =C2=A74.4 says:
>>>>
>>>>   Certain middleboxes, such as ALGs, may alter the ICE candidate
>>>>   information that breaks ICE.  If the using protocol is vulnerable =
to
>>>>   this kind of changes, called ICE mismatch, the responding agent ne=
eds
>>>>   to detect this and signal this back to the initiating agent.  The
>>>>   details on whether this is needed and how it is done is defined by=

>>>>   the usage specifications.  One exception to the above is that an
>>>>   initiating agent would never indicate ICE mismatch.
>>>>
>>>> In general, how can the responding agent determine that such breakag=
e=20
>>>> has occurred if it doesn't know what the initiating agent sent? And =

>>>> why wouldn't the initiating agent also have some responsibility for =

>>>> detecting ICE mismatch in the other direction (i.e., from the=20
>>>> responding agent to the initiating agent)?
>>>
>>> First, I think the section title is misleading. It=C2=B9s not about=20
>>> verifying ICE support.
>>>
>>> Could we simply remove the whole section?
>>
>> That seems fine.
>=20
> I had a chat with Ari today, and he does not think we should remove it.=
 Perhaps we should change the title or something, but we should keep the =
text.
>=20
> However, then your question would still apply.=20
>=20
> In draft-ice-sip-sdp, the determination is done by comparing the c/m-li=
ne address:port with the candidate attributes, and if there is no match t=
hen it is assumed that an intermediary has modified the c/m-line without =
doing the corresponding attribute changes.

OK. So I guess we should at least say that mechanisms for determining
ICE mismatch are the responsibility of the using protocol.

Peter



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Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , ICE WG 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 12:34:44 +0000
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From nobody Tue Oct 17 07:36:24 2017
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To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" 
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References: <66220024-e08b-aa61-ffe2-3c279c377a34@alvestrand.no> 
From: Harald Alvestrand 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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Den 16. okt. 2017 12:02, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> Hi Harald,
> 
> Some feedback on your comments.
> 
>> Most important points:
>>
>> * The protocol has been designed and revised to be usable with non-media
>> data, but the introduction and abstract do not reflect this. Expunging
>> the media bias from the body of the document is probably not worth it,
>> but the intro and abstract should mention it.
> 
> We COULD do a search/replace operation, and replace ³media² with ³data².
> We would end up with terms like ³data stream², ³data packets² etc, but I
> guess that it would be ok.
> 
> In the ³data definition² we would then describe that data includes both
> RTP and non-RTP data.

I would like that! I was proposing a smaller change because it's so late
in the cycle, but better is better!

> 
>> * Security considerations should mention the problem that ICE reveals
>> addresses that might otherwise remain hidden, and that this is a privacy
>> concern.
> 
> I would be glad if someone could provide text for that, to make sure we
> get it right.

The paragraph I suggested in the PDF was:

“The process of probing for candidates reveals the source addresses of
the client and its peer to any on-network listening attacker, and the
process of exchanging candidates reveals the addresses to any attacker
that is able to see the negotiation. Some addresses, such as the server
reflexive addresses gathered through the local interface of VPN users,
may be sensitive information. If these potential attacks can’t be
mitigated, the implementation may want to institute controls for which
addresses are revealed to the negotiation and/or probing process. Such
controls need to be specified as part of the ICE usage.”

Of course, that's only my suggestion.

> 
>> * The document has removed all the SDP specific parts (good), but the
>> requirements it places on the negotiation mechanism aren¹t collectively
>> documented anywhere. A section describing this would help comprehension
>> for people developing signalling protocols for use with ICE.
> 
> I can think of the following requirements:
> 
> REQ: There MUST be a mechanism for ICE agents to determine whether the
> remote peer supports ICE
> 
> 
> REQ: There MUST be a mechanism for ICE agents to exchange candidate
> information
> 
> REQ: There MUST be a mechanism for ICE agents to indicate an ICE restart
> to the remote peer

I was thinking of something like:

The exchange of information MUST result in the following information
being available to the ICE agent:

- Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
- What ICE options, if any, are supported
- Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
- Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
- What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
- Whether an ICE restart is desired

> 
> 
>> * The definition of ³component² talks about a component having one
>> address. I believe that in current usage, it should be defined to have
>> an address pair. (non-symmetric RTP is dead).
> 
> Or, should we say ³having one candidate pair²?
> 
>  A component is a piece of a data stream
> requiring a candidate pair; a data stream may require
> multiple components, each of which has to work for the data stream as
> a whole to work.  For media streams based on RTP, unless RTP and RTCP
> are multiplexed in the same port, there are two components per media
> stream -- one for RTP, and one for RTCP.

This works for me!

> 
> 
> Regarding non-symmetric RTP, the spec says that the selected candidate
> pair MUST be used for sending and receiving media, so I guess that means
> symmetric RTP. Perhaps it would be good to point that out.

Can't harm.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christer
> 


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
CC: "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" 
Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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Leaving in only the one with something left to write...

Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>> I was thinking of something like:
>>
>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following information being available to the ICE agent:
>>
>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
> 
> 

The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role
if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are
Lite implementations. This means that it has to know that it's the
initiating agent.

In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which one
is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called
for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or
protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the decision on
which side has the Initiator role.

I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange
of information should give back the information to each about whether
they should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger
rewrite.


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: Selected pair clarification - Pull Request
Thread-Index: AQHTR+bwGfhPARp/T0+MqogIgm7SyQ==
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 07:58:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: Selected pair clarification - Pull Request
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--_000_D60CE5BA24302christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

I have created a PR which is meant to clean up the =93selected pair=94 conc=
ept.

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48

Regards,

Christer


From: Ice > on behalf of =
Christer Holmberg >
Date: Friday 13 October 2017 at 10:07
To: "ice@ietf.org" >
Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Selected pair clarification

Hi,

I am working on a PR to clarify =93selected pair=94.

Previously my assumption was that a candidate pair becomes selected once th=
e nomination binding request succeeds.

However, when looking closer at the text, it seems like pairs becomes selec=
ted once a pair for every component associated with a media stream has been=
 successfully nominated.

So, in case you have components for both RTP and RTCP, you need to successf=
ully nominate pairs for both before they become selected.

My assumption above is based on the following text in section 7.1.1:

   "Eventually, if the nominations succeed, there will be only a single
   nominated pair in the VALID LIST for each component.  Once the state
   of the CHECK LIST is set to Completed, that exact pair is selected by
   ICE for sending and receiving media for that component.=94

And, as described in section 7.1.2, the state of the check list is set to C=
ompleted once there is a nominated pair for each component.

Do people share the understanding above?

Regards,

Christer



--_000_D60CE5BA24302christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,







I have created a PR which is meant to clean up the =93selected pair=94=
 concept.













Regards,







Christer














From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmb=
erg <christer.holmberg=
@ericsson.com>

Date: Friday 13 October 2017 at 10:=
07

To: "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.=
org>

Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Selected pa=
ir clarification













Hi,







I am working on a PR to clarify =93selected pair=94.







Previously my assumption was that a candidate pair becomes selected on=
ce the nomination binding request succeeds.







However, when looking closer at the text, it seems like pairs becomes =
selected once a pair for every component associated with a media stream has=
 been successfully nominated.







So, in case you have components for both RTP and RTCP, you need to suc=
cessfully nominate pairs for both before they become selected.







My assumption above is based on the following text in section 7.1.1:








   "Eventually, if the nominations succeed, there will =
be only a single


   nominated pair in the VALID LIST for each component. &nbs=
p;Once the state


   of the CHECK LIST is set to Completed, that exact pair is=
 selected by


   ICE for sending and receiving media for that component.=
=94









And, as described in section 7.1.2, the state of the check list is set=
 to Completed once there is a nominated pair for each component.







Do people share the understanding above?







Regards,







Christer



















--_000_D60CE5BA24302christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: To pair or not to pair peer reflexive candidates?
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Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: To pair or not to pair peer reflexive candidates?
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Hi,

Section 6.3.1.3. (Learning Peer Reflexive Candidates) of 5245bis says:

   "This candidate is added to the list of remote candidates.  However,
   the agent does not pair this candidate with any local candidates."

However, section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks) says:

   "Next, the agent constructs a pair whose local candidate is equal to
   the transport address on which the STUN request was received, and a
   remote candidate equal to the source transport address where the
   request came from (which may be the peer reflexive remote candidate
   that was just learned)."

This seems to be conflicting. Does the agent pair local candidates with rem=
ote peer reflexive candidates or not?

Regards,

Christer

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Hi,







Section 6.3.1.3. (Learning Peer Reflexive Candidates) of 5245bis s=
ays:




   "This candidate is added t=
o the list of remote candidates.  However,
   the agent does not pair this candidate with any local candidates."<=
/pre>



However, section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks)
says:




   "Next, the agent construct=
s a pair whose local candidate is equal to
   the transport address on which the STUN request was received, and a
   remote candidate equal to the source transport address where the
   request came from (which may be the peer reflexive remote candidate
   that was just learned)."




This seems to be conflicting. Does the agent pair local candidates wit=
h remote peer reflexive candidates or not?







Regards,







Christer




--_000_D60CF6712431Achristerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Source transport address clarification
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Section  of 5245bis says:

        "and a remote candidate equal to the source transport address where=
 the request came from"

It may be obvious, but would it be useful to clarify that it is the source =
transport address AS SEEN BY THE AGENT =96 i.e., it may not be the source t=
ransport address of the remote peer?

Regards,

Christer


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Section  of 5245bis says:




	"and a remote candidate equal to the so=
urce transport address where the request came from" 




It may be obvious, but would it be useful to clarify that it is the so=
urce transport address AS SEEN BY THE AGENT =96 i.e., it may not be the sou=
rce transport address of the remote peer?







Regards,







Christer






--_000_D60CF78624320christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: To cancel or not to cancel an In-Progress transaction
Thread-Index: AQHTR/Zl5FkDPMZBnEGqpvbkSDfWWQ==
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Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: To cancel or not to cancel an In-Progress transaction
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--_000_D60CFFF024337christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

Section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks) of 5245bis says:

       "If the state of that pair is In-Progress, the agent cancels the
        in-progress transaction.  In addition, the agent
        MUST create a new connectivity check for that pair"

Section 6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag) says:

      "If the state of this pair is In-Progress, and if its check
      produces a successful result, the resulting valid pair has its
      nominated flag set when the response arrives."

First, I think the text is conflicting, because section 6.3.1.5 doesn=92t s=
ay anything about cancelling in ongoing (In-Progress) transaction.

Second, Regarding 6.3.1.4, why does one have to cancel the transaction and =
create a new one?

Regards,

Christer

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Hi,







Section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks)
of 5245bis says:




       "If the state of that =
pair is In-Progress, the agent cancels the
        in-progress transaction. <snap> In addition, the agent
        MUST create a new connectivity check for that pair"




Section 6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag)
says:




      "If the state of this p=
air is In-Progress, and if its check
      produces a successful result, the resulting valid pair has its
      nominated flag set when the response arrives."




First, I think the text is conflicting, because section 6.3.1.5 doesn=
=92t say anything about cancelling in ongoing (In-Progress) transaction.






Second, Regarding 6.3.1.4, why does one have to cancel the transaction=
 and create a new one? 







Regards,







Christer




--_000_D60CFFF024337christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Receiving of connectivity check with USE-CANDIDATE attribute set
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Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Receiving of connectivity check with USE-CANDIDATE attribute set
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Hi,

Section  6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag) describes the STUN server p=
rocedures when a connectivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute set is=
 received.

However, it only covers pairs in Succeeded and In-Progress state.

What about pairs in Waiting, Frozen or Failed state?

According to section 6.3.1.4 a check will be generated for pairs in those s=
tates, but there is no work on setting the nominated flag when the response=
 to such checks arrives.

In my opinion, when a connectivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute s=
et is receive, the agent creates a connectivity check in case of ANY non-Su=
cceeded state, and sets to nominated flag if the check succeeds.

Regards,

Christer

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Hi,









Section  6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag)
describes the STUN server procedures when a connectivity check with =
the USE-=
CANDIDATE
attrib=
ute set is received.









However, it o=
nly covers pairs in Succeeded and In-Progress state. 









What about pa=
irs in Waiting, Frozen or Failed state?








According to section 6.3.1.4 a ch=
eck will be generated for pairs in those states, but there is no work on se=
tting the nominated flag when the response
 to such checks arrives.







In my opinion, when
a connectivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE
attribute set is receive, the a=
gent creates a connectivity check in case of ANY non-Succeeded state, and s=
ets to nominated flag if the check succeeds.







Regards,






Christer



--_000_D60D020D24349christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Controlled agent connectivity check failure
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Hi,

Section describes how the controlled agent, when it receives a connectivity=
 check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute, generates a connectivity check, an=
d when the response arrives sets the nominated flag.

The text seems to assume that the connectivity check will succeed.

In my opinion, it should be stated that if the check fails, the controlled =
agent shall set the check list state to Failed (in the same way the control=
ling agent does if the nomination connectivity check request fails).

Regards,

Christer

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Hi,







Section describes how the controlled agent, when it receives a connect=
ivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute, generates a connectivity chec=
k, and when the response arrives sets the nominated flag.







The text seems to assume that the connectivity check will succeed.






In my opinion, it should be stated that if the check fails, the contro=
lled agent shall set the check list state to Failed (in the same way the co=
ntrolling agent does if the nomination connectivity check request fails).






Regards,







Christer




--_000_D60D066524366christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Peter Saint-Andre , ICE WG 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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From nobody Wed Oct 18 05:37:40 2017
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
CC: "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Security Considerations Pull Request
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Security Considerations Pull Request
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Hi,

...

>>=20
>>> * Security considerations should mention the problem that ICE reveals
>>> addresses that might otherwise remain hidden, and that this is a
>>>privacy
>>> concern.
>>=20
>> I would be glad if someone could provide text for that, to make sure we
>> get it right.
>
>The paragraph I suggested in the PDF was:
>
>=B3The process of probing for candidates reveals the source addresses of
>the client and its peer to any on-network listening attacker, and the
>process of exchanging candidates reveals the addresses to any attacker
>that is able to see the negotiation. Some addresses, such as the server
>reflexive addresses gathered through the local interface of VPN users,
>may be sensitive information. If these potential attacks can=B9t be
>mitigated, the implementation may want to institute controls for which
>addresses are revealed to the negotiation and/or probing process. Such
>controls need to be specified as part of the ICE usage.=B2
>
>Of course, that's only my suggestion.

Pull request created:

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/49


Regards,

Christer


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From: Taylor Brandstetter 
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:23:35 -0700
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To: Christer Holmberg 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: To pair or not to pair peer reflexive candidates?
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--001a114dd0a656e634055bd4a92d
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The point is that the peer reflexive candidate isn't paired with
*other* candidates;
it's only used to generate a triggered check. In the common case where a
peer reflexive candidate is produced by a symmetric NAT, it wouldn't make
sense to send binding requests to this address from other local candidates,
because they'd just be filtered by the NAT and waste Ta cycles.

This could use some slight rewording though; "does not pair" technically is
at odds with "constructs a pair". Perhaps "this candidate is not used to
add any new candidate pairs to the check list". Or "the agent does not pair
this candidate with any local candidates, aside from the one that generated
it, for the purposes of sending a triggered check."

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Section 6.3.1.3. (Learning Peer Reflexive Candidates) of 5245bis says:
>
>    "This candidate is added to the list of remote candidates.  However,
>    the agent does not pair this candidate with any local candidates."
>
> However, section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks) says:
>
>    "Next, the agent constructs a pair whose local candidate is equal to
>    the transport address on which the STUN request was received, and a
>    remote candidate equal to the source transport address where the
>    request came from (*which may be the peer reflexive remote candidate
>    that was just learned*)."
>
> This seems to be conflicting. Does the agent pair local candidates with
> remote peer reflexive candidates or not?
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

--001a114dd0a656e634055bd4a92d
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The point is that the peer reflexive candidate isn't p=
aired with other=C2=A0candidates; it's only used to generate a t=
riggered check. In the common case where a peer reflexive candidate is prod=
uced by a symmetric NAT, it wouldn't make sense to send binding request=
s to this address from other local candidates, because they'd just be f=
iltered by the NAT and waste Ta cycles.

This could use s=
ome slight rewording though; "does not pair" technically is at od=
ds with "constructs a pair". Perhaps "this candidate is not =
used to add any new candidate pairs to the check list". Or "the a=
gent does not pair this candidate with any local candidates, aside from the=
 one that generated it, for the purposes of sending a triggered check."=
;

On W=
ed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:09 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holm=
berg@ericsson.com> wrote:







Hi,







Section=C2=A06.3.1.3. (Learning P=
eer Reflexive Candidates)=C2=A0of 5245bis says:




   "This candidate is added to the list of remote candidat=
es.  However,
   the agent does not pair this candidate with any local candidates."<=
/pre>



However, section=C2=A06.3.1.4. (T=
riggered Checks)
says:




   "Next, the agent constructs a pair whose local candidat=
e is equal to
   the transport address on which the STUN request was received, and a
   remote candidate equal to the source transport address where the
   request came from (which may be the peer reflexive remote candidate
   that was just learned)."




This seems to be conflicting. Does the agent pair local candidates wit=
h remote peer reflexive candidates or not?







Regards,







Christer





_______________________________________________

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 09:35:12 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: To cancel or not to cancel an In-Progress transaction
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I don't see how these are at odds. 6.3.1.5 doesn't have to say anything
about canceling transactions because 6.3.1.4 already does. And you left out
an important part of 6.3.1.4:

         Cancellation means that the agent
>          will not retransmit the request, will not treat the lack of
>          response to be a failure, but will wait the duration of the
>          transaction timeout for a response.


The point of canceling the request and generating a new one is (I'm
assuming) to refresh the exponentially increasing retransmission timeout.
If the peer just punched a hole in its NAT, you want to send another
connectivity check as soon as possible to take advantage of this. But it's
still possible to receive a response for the connectivity check that was
canceled, and this is treated as success.

It would be nice if this were explained a bit more. The explanation in the
spec is not very helpful:

   These steps are done to facilitate rapid completion of ICE when both
>    agents are behind NAT.



On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks) of 5245bis says:
>
>        "If the state of that pair is In-Progress, the agent cancels the
>         in-progress transaction.  In addition, the agent
>         MUST create a new connectivity check for that pair"
>
> Section 6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag) says:
>
>       "If the state of this pair is In-Progress, and if its check
>       produces a successful result, the resulting valid pair has its
>       nominated flag set when the response arrives."
>
> First, I think the text is conflicting, because section 6.3.1.5 doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> say anything about cancelling in ongoing (In-Progress) transaction.
>
> Second, Regarding 6.3.1.4, why does one have to cancel the transaction an=
d
> create a new one?
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

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I don't see how these are at odds. 6.3.1.5 doesn't=
 have to say anything about canceling transactions because 6.3.1.4 already =
does. And you left out an important part of 6.3.=
1.4:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cancellation means that the agent
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will not retransmit the request, will not=
 treat the lack of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0response to be a fa=
ilure, but will wait the duration of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0transaction timeout for a response.

The =
point of canceling the request and generating a new one is (I'm assumin=
g) to refresh the exponentially increasing retransmission timeout. If the p=
eer just punched a hole in its NAT, you want to send another connectivity c=
heck as soon as possible to take advantage of this. But it's still poss=
ible to receive a response for the connectivity check that was canceled, an=
d this is treated as success.

It would be nice if =
this were explained a bit more. The explanation in the spec is not very hel=
pful:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0These steps are done to facilitate rapid completio=
n of ICE when both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0agents are behind NAT.


On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Christer Holmberg &=
lt;chri=
ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:







Hi,







Section=C2=A06.3.1.4. (Triggered =
Checks)
of 5245bis says:




       "If the state of that pair is In-Progress, the agen=
t cancels the
        in-progress transaction. <snap> In addition, the agent
        MUST create a new connectivity check for that pair"




Section=C2=A06.3.1.5. (Updating t=
he Nominated Flag)
says:




      "If the state of this pair is In-Progress, and if it=
s check
      produces a successful result, the resulting valid pair has its
      nominated flag set when the response arrives."




First, I think the text is conflicting, because section 6.3.1.5 doesn=
=E2=80=99t say anything about cancelling in ongoing (In-Progress) transacti=
on.







Second, Regarding 6.3.1.4, why does one have to cancel the transaction=
 and create a new one?=C2=A0







Regards,







Christer





_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice





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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: Receiving of connectivity check with USE-CANDIDATE attribute set
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I agree section 6.3.1.5 is lacking. If the state of a pair is "Frozen" and
a check is received, a triggered check will be generated but the state
won't be changed.

We could probably just change the bullets to "if the state is Succeeded"
and "If the state is not Succeeded", as opposed to "if the state is
In-Progress". The point of this section is to say "if the state is
*already* Succeeded,
set the nominated flag. Otherwise wait for it to become Succeeded before
setting the nominated flag".

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:58 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Section  6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag) describes the STUN server
> procedures when a connectivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute set
> is received.
>
> However, it only covers pairs in Succeeded and In-Progress state.
>
> What about pairs in Waiting, Frozen or Failed state?
>
> According to section 6.3.1.4 a check will be generated for pairs in those
> states, but there is no work on setting the nominated flag when the
> response to such checks arrives.
>
> In my opinion, when a connectivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute
> set is receive, the agent creates a connectivity check in case of ANY
> non-Succeeded state, and sets to nominated flag if the check succeeds.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

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I agree section 6.3.1.5 is lacking. If the state of a pair=
 is "Frozen" and a check is received, a triggered check will be g=
enerated but the state won't be changed.

We could pr=
obably just change the bullets to "if the state is Succeeded" and=
 "If the state is not Succeeded", as opposed to "if the stat=
e is In-Progress". The point of this section is to say "if the st=
ate is already=C2=A0Succeeded, set the nominated flag. Otherwise wai=
t for it to become Succeeded before setting the nominated flag".
=


On Wed, Oct=
 18, 2017 at 2:58 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@er=
icsson.com> wrote:








Hi,









Section =C2=A06.3.1.5. (Updating the N=
ominated Flag)
describes the STUN server procedures when a connectivity check with =
the=C2=A0USE-CANDIDATE
attribute set is received.









However, it only covers pairs in Succe=
eded and In-Progress state.=C2=A0









What about pairs in Waiting, Frozen or=
 Failed state?








According to section 6.3.1.4 a check will be generated for pairs in =
those states, but there is no work on setting the nominated flag when the r=
esponse
 to such checks arrives.







In my opinion, when
a connectivity check with the=C2=A0USE-CANDIDATE
attribute set is receive, the agent creates a connectivity check i=
n case of ANY non-Succeeded state, and sets to nominated flag if the check =
succeeds.







Regards,







Christer





_______________________________________________

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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: Controlled agent connectivity check failure
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I assume you're talking about section 6.3.1.5, "Updating the Nominated
Flag"? But isn't connectivity check failure covered by Section 6.2.5.2, for
both controlling and controlled agents? 6.3.1.5 describes when the
nominated flag is set to "true", but I don't think it needs to describe
when it's *not* set to true; that's implied by omission.

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Section describes how the controlled agent, when it receives a
> connectivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute, generates a
> connectivity check, and when the response arrives sets the nominated flag.
>
> The text seems to assume that the connectivity check will succeed.
>
> In my opinion, it should be stated that if the check fails, the controlled
> agent shall set the check list state to Failed (in the same way the
> controlling agent does if the nomination connectivity check request fails).
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

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I assume you're talking about section 6.3.1.5, "U=
pdating the Nominated Flag"? But isn't connectivity check failure =
covered by Section 6.2.5.2, for both controlling and controlled agents? 6.3=
.1.5 describes when the nominated flag is set to "true", but I do=
n't think it needs to describe when it's not=C2=A0set to tru=
e; that's implied by omission.

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Christer Holmberg <=
span dir=3D"ltr"><christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:







Hi,







Section describes how the controlled agent, when it receives a connect=
ivity check with the USE-CANDIDATE attribute, generates a connectivity chec=
k, and when the response arrives sets the nominated flag.







The text seems to assume that the connectivity check will succeed.






In my opinion, it should be stated that if the check fails, the contro=
lled agent shall set the check list state to Failed (in the same way the co=
ntrolling agent does if the nomination connectivity check request fails).






Regards,







Christer





_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice





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From nobody Wed Oct 18 11:26:22 2017
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= 
To: ICE WG 
CC: "" 
Thread-Topic: WGLC on draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-14
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Subject: [Ice] Fwd: WGLC on draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-14
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Hi all,

Note that the ice-sip-sdp draft is in WGLC at the MMUSIC WG. See details be=
low.

Please have a look and send your comments to the MMUSIC list. In particular=
 it's important to make sure the document is consistent with the latest dra=
fts from ICE WG.


Thanks,
Ari

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Flemming Andreasen 
> Subject: WGLC on draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-14
> Date: 17 October 2017 at 3.18.48 GMT+2
> To: mmusic 
> Cc: "draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp@ietf.org" 
>=20
> Greetings MMUSIC
>=20
> This is to announce a 2 week WGLC on the draft:
>=20
>     https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-14.txt
>=20
> as Proposed Standard. Please review and provide any comments you may have=
 on the document by Monday, October 30, 2017. Comments should be sent to th=
e document authors and the MMUSIC WG list. If you review the document but d=
o not have any comments, please send a note to that effect as well.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> -- Flemming (MMUSIC co-chair)


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Taylor Brandstetter 
CC: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: Receiving of connectivity check with USE-CANDIDATE attribute set
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From: Christer Holmberg 
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Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: To cancel or not to cancel an In-Progress transaction
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From: Taylor Brandstetter 
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:13:57 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: To cancel or not to cancel an In-Progress transaction
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>
> Which check is the text talking about? A or B?


Either one. Would this be clear enough if "its check" was changed to "one
of its checks"? Or the whole sentence could be reworded to something like:

"If the state of this pair is not yet Succeeded, then the nominated flag
will be set on the valid pair generated if and when it does become
Succeeded."

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> >I don't see how these are at odds. 6.3.1.5 doesn't have to say anything
> about canceling transactions because 6.3.1.4 already does. And you left o=
ut
> an
> >important part of 6.3.1.4:
> >
> >         Cancellation means that the agent
> >         will not retransmit the request, will not treat the lack of
> >         response to be a failure, but will wait the duration of the
> >         transaction timeout for a response.
> >
> >The point of canceling the request and generating a new one is (I'm
> assuming) to refresh the exponentially increasing retransmission
> >timeout. If the peer just punched a hole in its NAT, you want to send
> another connectivity check as soon as possible to take advantage
> >of this. But it's still possible to receive a response for the
> connectivity check that was canceled, and this is treated as success.
>
> Let's assume I have a pair in In-Progress state (ongoing check A).
>
> I receive a connectivity check with USE-CANDIDATE.
>
> I trigger a new check (check B), according to the text in 6.1.3.4.
>
> Now, the text in 6.1.3.5 says "and if its check produces a successful
> result,".
>
> Which check is the text talking about? A or B? As one may fail (at least
> in theory), I need to know which one has to succeed.
>
> Perhaps the text should say "and if its MOST RECENT check produces a
> successful result,".
>
> Regards.
>
> Christer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It would be nice if this were explained a bit more. The explanation in th=
e
> spec is not very helpful:
>
>    These steps are done to facilitate rapid completion of ICE when both
>    agents are behind NAT.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Christer Holmberg <
> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Section 6.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks) of 5245bis says:
>        "If the state of that pair is In-Progress, the agent cancels the
>         in-progress transaction.  In addition, the agent
>         MUST create a new connectivity check for that pair"
> Section 6.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag) says:
>       "If the state of this pair is In-Progress, and if its check
>       produces a successful result, the resulting valid pair has its
>       nominated flag set when the response arrives."
> First, I think the text is conflicting, because section 6.3.1.5 doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> say anything about cancelling in ongoing (In-Progress) transaction.
>
> Second, Regarding 6.3.1.4, why does one have to cancel the transaction an=
d
> create a new one?
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
>

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Which check is the text talking about? A or B?

Either one. Would this be clear enough =
if "its check" was changed to "one of its checks"? Or t=
he whole sentence could be reworded to something like:

=

"If the state of this pair is not yet Succeeded, then the nominat=
ed flag will be set on the valid pair generated if and when it does become =
Succeeded."

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,



>I don't see how these are at odds. 6.3.1.5 doesn't have to say =
anything about canceling transactions because 6.3.1.4 already does. And you=
 left out an

>important part of 6.3.1.4:

>

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cancellation means that the agent

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will not retransmit the request, will=
 not treat the lack of

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0response to be a failure, but will wa=
it the duration of the

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transaction timeout for a response.
>

>The point of canceling the request and generating a new one is (I'm=
 assuming) to refresh the exponentially increasing retransmission

>timeout. If the peer just punched a hole in its NAT, you want to send a=
nother connectivity check as soon as possible to take advantage

>of this. But it's still possible to receive a response for the conn=
ectivity check that was canceled, and this is treated as success.



Let's assume I have a pair in In-Progress state (ongoing check A=
).



I receive a connectivity check with USE-CANDIDATE.



I trigger a new check (check B), according to the text in 6.1.3.4.



Now, the text in 6.1.3.5 says "and if its check produces a successful =
result,".



Which check is the text talking about? A or B? As one may fail (at least in=
 theory), I need to know which one has to succeed.



Perhaps the text should say "and if its MOST RECENT check produces a s=
uccessful result,".



Regards.



Christer














It would be nice if this were explained a bit more. The explanation in the =
spec is not very helpful:



=C2=A0 =C2=A0These steps are done to facilitate rapid completion of ICE whe=
n both

=C2=A0 =C2=A0agents are behind NAT.





On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> w=
rote:

Hi,



Section=C2=A06.3.1.4. (Triggered Checks) of 5245bis says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"If the state of that pair is In-Progress, =
the agent cancels the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in-progress transaction. <snap> In additi=
on, the agent

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST create a new connectivity check for that p=
air"

Section=C2=A06.3.1.5. (Updating the Nominated Flag) says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "If the state of this pair is In-Progress, and if=
 its check

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 produces a successful result, the resulting valid pair=
 has its

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 nominated flag set when the response arrives."
First, I think the text is conflicting, because section 6.3.1.5 doesn=E2=80=
=99t say anything about cancelling in ongoing (In-Progress) transaction.


Second, Regarding 6.3.1.4, why does one have to cancel the transaction and =
create a new one?=C2=A0



Regards,



Christer



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice







--f403045e6190cdc6b9055bd8b7de--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
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Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5245bis: Controlled agent connectivity check failure
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Do we need "Updating the nomination flag" sections?
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Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Do we need "Updating the nomination flag" sections?
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Hi,

Do we really need sections 6.2.5.3.4 and 6.3.1.5.? Couldn't the procedures =
be covered by section 7?

Currently the section 6.X sections describe how the nomination flag is upda=
ted, while section 7 describes how the nomination takes place.

Regards,

Christer

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56363C1EESESSMB109erics_
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Hi,


 


Do we really need sections 6.2.5.3.4 and 6.3.1.5.? C=
ouldn’t the procedures be covered by section 7?



 


Currently the section 6.X sections describe how the =
nomination flag is updated, while section 7 describes how the nomination ta=
kes place.


 


Regards,


 


Christer






--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56363C1EESESSMB109erics_--


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Christer Holmberg , Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
CC: "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Security Considerations Pull Request
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Hi,

The PR has been merged.

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmber=
g
Sent: 18 October 2017 14:37
To: Harald Alvestrand ; ice@ietf.org
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Securit=
y Considerations Pull Request

Hi,

...

>>=20
>>> * Security considerations should mention the problem that ICE=20
>>>reveals  addresses that might otherwise remain hidden, and that this=20
>>>is a privacy  concern.
>>=20
>> I would be glad if someone could provide text for that, to make sure=20
>> we get it right.
>
>The paragraph I suggested in the PDF was:
>
>=B3The process of probing for candidates reveals the source addresses of=20
>the client and its peer to any on-network listening attacker, and the=20
>process of exchanging candidates reveals the addresses to any attacker=20
>that is able to see the negotiation. Some addresses, such as the server=20
>reflexive addresses gathered through the local interface of VPN users,=20
>may be sensitive information. If these potential attacks can=B9t be=20
>mitigated, the implementation may want to institute controls for which=20
>addresses are revealed to the negotiation and/or probing process. Such=20
>controls need to be specified as part of the ICE usage.=B2
>
>Of course, that's only my suggestion.

Pull request created:

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/49


Regards,

Christer

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
CC: Taylor Brandstetter 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: Do we need "Updating the nomination flag" sections?
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Subject: Re: [Ice] 5245bis: Do we need "Updating the nomination flag" sections?
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Hi,

I updated the "selected pair clarification" PR with some nomination clean-u=
ps and clarifications:

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48

(I also did fixes based on Taylor's comments in GitHub)

Regards,

Christer

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 19 October 2017 06:44
To: ice@ietf.org
Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Do we need "Updating the nomination flag" sections?

Hi,

Do we really need sections 6.2.5.3.4 and 6.3.1.5.? Couldn't the procedures =
be covered by section 7?

Currently the section 6.X sections describe how the nomination flag is upda=
ted, while section 7 describes how the nomination takes place.

Regards,

Christer

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56364C3BESESSMB109erics_
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Hi,<=
/p>

 


I updated the “s=
elected pair clarification” PR with some nomination clean-ups and cla=
rifications:


 


https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pul=
l/48


 


(I also did fixes base=
d on Taylor’s comments in GitHub)


 


Regards,


 


Christer


 






From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg

Sent: 19 October 2017 06:44

To: ice@ietf.org

Subject: [Ice] 5245bis: Do we need "Updating the nomination fla=
g" sections?






 


Hi,


 


Do we really need sections 6.2.5.3.4 and 6.3.1.5.? C=
ouldn’t the procedures be covered by section 7?



 


Currently the section 6.X sections describe how the =
nomination flag is updated, while section 7 describes how the nomination ta=
kes place.


 


Regards,


 


Christer






--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56364C3BESESSMB109erics_--


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Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
CC: "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):

Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to exchange the=
 following information:
-	Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
-	What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
-	Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE implementation.
-	Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the Initiating Agent.
-	The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make available.
-	Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmber=
g
Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
To: Harald Alvestrand ; ice@ietf.org
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Informa=
tion exchange requirements

Hi Harald (and others),

Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol requirements"=
, or something), or do you think the text fits in an existing section?

Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding candidate exchange=
 (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the other requirements fi=
t there.

Regards,

Christer



Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>> I was thinking of something like:
>>
>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following information bei=
ng available to the ICE agent:
>>
>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking it's=
 the initiating agent or not.
>=20
>=20

The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role if b=
oth parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are Lite imple=
mentations. This means that it has to know that it's the initiating agent.

In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which one is=
 initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called for s=
etup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or protocols where =
glare is possible, something has to make the decision on which side has the=
 Initiator role.

I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange of i=
nformation should give back the information to each about whether they shou=
ld try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger rewrite.

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


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From: Roman Shpount 
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 17:23:36 -0400
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To: Christer Holmberg 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
>
> Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to exchange
> the following information:
> -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
> -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
> -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE implementation.
> -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the Initiating
> Agent.
> -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make available.
> -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer
> Holmberg
> Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
> To: Harald Alvestrand ; ice@ietf.org
> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
> Information exchange requirements
>
> Hi Harald (and others),
>
> Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
> requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an existing
> section?
>
> Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding candidate
> exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the other
> requirements fit there.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>
> Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> >> I was thinking of something like:
> >>
> >> The exchange of information MUST result in the following information
> being available to the ICE agent:
> >>
> >> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
> >> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
> >> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
> >> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
> >> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
> >> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
> > Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking
> it's the initiating agent or not.
> >
> >
>
> The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role if
> both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are Lite
> implementations. This means that it has to know that it's the initiating
> agent.
>
> In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which one
> is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called for
> setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or protocols where
> glare is possible, something has to make the decision on which side has the
> Initiator role.
>
> I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange of
> information should give back the information to each about whether they
> should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger rewrite.
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>

--001a114673b2287bc1055becf80f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and=C2=A0remote-candidates?
Regards,

_____________
Roman Shp=
ount


On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Ho=
lmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:<=
br>
I suggest to add the following text to se=
ction 2.8 (Usages of ICE):



Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to exchange the=
 following information:

-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.</t><=
br>
-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents suppor=
t.</t>

-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE =
implementation.</t>

-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of =
the Initiating Agent.</t>

-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to =
make available.</t>

-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE re=
start.</t>



Regards,



Christer



-----Original Message-----

From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-boun=
ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg

Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30

To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@al=
vestrand.no>; ice@ietf.org

Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Informa=
tion exchange requirements



Hi Harald (and others),



Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol requirem=
ents", or something), or do you think the text fits in an existing sec=
tion?



Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding candidate exchange=
 (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the other requirement=
s fit there.



Regards,



Christer







Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:

>> I was thinking of something like:

>>

>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following informati=
on being available to the ICE agent:

>>

>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all

>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported

>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full

>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or =
not

>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available

>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired

> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking i=
t's the initiating agent or not.

>

>



The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role if b=
oth parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are Lite imple=
mentations. This means that it has to know that it's the initiating age=
nt.



In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which on=
e is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called f=
or setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or protocols wh=
ere glare is possible, something has to make the decision on which side has=
 the Initiator role.



I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange =
of information should give back the information to each about whether they =
should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger rewrite.<=
br>


_______________________________________________

rtcweb mailing list

rtcweb@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice





--001a114673b2287bc1055becf80f--


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To: Roman Shpount , Christer Holmberg 
Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" 
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56364D2A@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56365198@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> 
From: Harald Alvestrand 
Message-ID: <3b325a91-f676-1e6e-c0f4-ff08ad08f634@alvestrand.no>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 06:56:16 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:
> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?

Yes.

(candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
> 
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg
> >
> wrote:
> 
>     I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
> 
>     Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to
>     exchange the following information:
>     -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
>     -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
>     -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE
>     implementation.
>     -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the
>     Initiating Agent.
>     -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make
>     available.
>     -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
> 
>     Regards,
> 
>     Christer
> 
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
>     ] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>     Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
>     To: Harald Alvestrand      >; ice@ietf.org 
>     Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org 
>     Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
>     Information exchange requirements
> 
>     Hi Harald (and others),
> 
>     Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
>     requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an
>     existing section?
> 
>     Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding candidate
>     exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the other
>     requirements fit there.
> 
>     Regards,
> 
>     Christer
> 
> 
> 
>     Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>     >> I was thinking of something like:
>     >>
>     >> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
>     information being available to the ICE agent:
>     >>
>     >> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>     >> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>     >> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>     >> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>     >> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>     >> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
>     > Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
>     thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
>     >
>     >
> 
>     The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
>     role if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both
>     parties are Lite implementations. This means that it has to know
>     that it's the initiating agent.
> 
>     In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which
>     one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get
>     called for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join)
>     or protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the
>     decision on which side has the Initiator role.
> 
>     I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
>     exchange of information should give back the information to each
>     about whether they should try to take the Controlling role, but that
>     may be a larger rewrite.
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     rtcweb mailing list
>     rtcweb@ietf.org 
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>     
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Ice mailing list
>     Ice@ietf.org 
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>     
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
> 


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand 
CC: Roman Shpount , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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Hi,

Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think we coul=
d simply reference that section.

Regards,

Christer=20


Sent from my iPhone

> On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand  wrote:
>=20
> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:
>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?
>=20
> Yes.
>=20
> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> _____________
>> Roman Shpount
>>=20
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg
>> >
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>    I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
>>=20
>>    Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to
>>    exchange the following information:
>>    -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
>>    -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
>>    -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE
>>    implementation.
>>    -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the
>>    Initiating Agent.
>>    -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make
>>    available.
>>    -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
>>=20
>>    Regards,
>>=20
>>    Christer
>>=20
>>    -----Original Message-----
>>    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
>>    ] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>    Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
>>    To: Harald Alvestrand >    >; ice@ietf.org 
>>    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org 
>>    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
>>    Information exchange requirements
>>=20
>>    Hi Harald (and others),
>>=20
>>    Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
>>    requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an
>>    existing section?
>>=20
>>    Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding candidate
>>    exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the other
>>    requirements fit there.
>>=20
>>    Regards,
>>=20
>>    Christer
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>>>> I was thinking of something like:
>>>>=20
>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
>>    information being available to the ICE agent:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
>>    thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>    The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
>>    role if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both
>>    parties are Lite implementations. This means that it has to know
>>    that it's the initiating agent.
>>=20
>>    In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which
>>    one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get
>>    called for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join)
>>    or protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the
>>    decision on which side has the Initiator role.
>>=20
>>    I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
>>    exchange of information should give back the information to each
>>    about whether they should try to take the Controlling role, but that
>>    may be a larger rewrite.
>>=20
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    rtcweb mailing list
>>    rtcweb@ietf.org 
>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>    
>>=20
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Ice mailing list
>>    Ice@ietf.org 
>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>    
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>=20
>=20

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To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" 
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56364D2A@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56365198@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>  <3b325a91-f676-1e6e-c0f4-ff08ad08f634@alvestrand.no> <6AD93BC3-C2ED-4724-9106-E208F0478ECE@ericsson.com>
From: Harald Alvestrand 
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 10:07:42 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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(removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)

Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> Hi,
> 
> Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think we
> could simply reference that section.

Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So
retitling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the
easiest fix to this issue.

ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged through the ICE
Usage", and changing "How this information is encoded or exchanged is
out of scope for this specification" to "How this information is encoded
or exchanged has to be specified as part of each ICE usage, and is out
of scope for this specification".

That would work for me, and is a smaller change.

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christer 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand  > wrote:
> 
>> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:
>>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> _____________
>>> Roman Shpount
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg
>>> >> 
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
>>>
>>>    Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to
>>>    exchange the following information:
>>>    -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
>>>    -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
>>>    -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE
>>>    implementation.
>>>    -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the
>>>    Initiating Agent.
>>>    -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make
>>>    available.
>>>    -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
>>>
>>>    Regards,
>>>
>>>    Christer
>>>
>>>    -----Original Message-----
>>>    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
>>>    ] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>    Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
>>>    To: Harald Alvestrand >> 
>>>    >; ice@ietf.org 
>>> 
>>>    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org  
>>>    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
>>>    Information exchange requirements
>>>
>>>    Hi Harald (and others),
>>>
>>>    Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
>>>    requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an
>>>    existing section?
>>>
>>>    Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding candidate
>>>    exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the other
>>>    requirements fit there.
>>>
>>>    Regards,
>>>
>>>    Christer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>>>>> I was thinking of something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
>>>    information being available to the ICE agent:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
>>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
>>>    thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>    The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
>>>    role if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both
>>>    parties are Lite implementations. This means that it has to know
>>>    that it's the initiating agent.
>>>
>>>    In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which
>>>    one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get
>>>    called for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join)
>>>    or protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the
>>>    decision on which side has the Initiator role.
>>>
>>>    I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
>>>    exchange of information should give back the information to each
>>>    about whether they should try to take the Controlling role, but that
>>>    may be a larger rewrite.
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    rtcweb mailing list
>>>    rtcweb@ietf.org  
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>    
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    Ice mailing list
>>>    Ice@ietf.org  
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>    
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ice mailing list
>>> Ice@ietf.org 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>
>>


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand 
CC: Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5345bis: Too much overview
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Hi,

One of the problems with the many ICE tutorials I've seen over the years is=
 that they are too detailed: they contain stuff that is not relevant in ord=
er to teach someone the basics of ICE.

I think we have the same problem in section 2 of 5245bis.

Section 2 is (in my opinion) MORE than an Overview - it's 10(!) pages. Sect=
ion 2.4 (Frozen Candidates) is not needed at all in an Overview, in my opin=
ion. Same applies to Section 2.5.

Section 2.8 belongs in the Introduction section.

Regards,

Christer


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Hi,


 


One of the problems with the many ICE tutorials I=
217;ve seen over the years is that they are too detailed: they contain stuf=
f that is not relevant in order to teach someone the basics of ICE.


 


I think we have the same problem in section 2 of 524=
5bis. 



 


Section 2 is (in my opinion) MORE than an Overview &=
#8211; it’s 10(!) pages. Section 2.4 (Frozen Candidates) is not neede=
d at all in an Overview, in my opinion. Same applies to Section 2.5.


 


Section 2.8 belongs in the Introduction section.


 


Regards,


 


Christer


 






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To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" 
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56366D4E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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 "ice@ietf.org" 
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On 10/20/17 8:24 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> =A0
>=20
> One of the problems with the many ICE tutorials I=92ve seen over the ye=
ars
> is that they are too detailed: they contain stuff that is not relevant
> in order to teach someone the basics of ICE.
>=20
> =A0
>=20
> I think we have the same problem in section 2 of 5245bis.

Agreed!

Peter




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From: Roman Shpount 
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:50:50 -0400
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To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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I just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand that
"remote-candidates" SDP attribute described in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-12#appendix-B does
not actually affect ICE agents. It is only needed to control offer/answer
exchange, so that the information provided in this attribute does not need
to be mentioned. in draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis.

Besides this, the change looks good.

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have added the change to the "selected clarification" PR:
>
> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
> Sent: 20 October 2017 10:19
> To: Harald Alvestrand 
> Cc: Roman Shpount ; ice@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
> Information exchange requirements
>
> Hi,
>
> I am ok with just fixing 4.3, as suggested by Harald.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no]
> Sent: 20 October 2017 10:08
> To: Christer Holmberg 
> Cc: Roman Shpount ; ice@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
> Information exchange requirements
>
> (removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)
>
> Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think
> > we could simply reference that section.
>
> Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So
> retitling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the
> easiest fix to this issue.
>
> ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged through the ICE
> Usage", and changing "How this information is encoded or exchanged is out
> of scope for this specification" to "How this information is encoded or
> exchanged has to be specified as part of each ICE usage, and is out of
> scope for this specification".
>
> That would work for me, and is a smaller change.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Christer
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand  > > wrote:
> >
> >> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:
> >>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> _____________
> >>> Roman Shpount
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg
> >>>  >>> 
> >>> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>    I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
> >>>
> >>>    Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to
> >>>    exchange the following information:
> >>>    -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
> >>>    -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
> >>>    -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE
> >>>    implementation.
> >>>    -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the
> >>>    Initiating Agent.
> >>>    -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make
> >>>    available.
> >>>    -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
> >>>
> >>>    Regards,
> >>>
> >>>    Christer
> >>>
> >>>    -----Original Message-----
> >>>    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
> >>>    ] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
> >>>    Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
> >>>    To: Harald Alvestrand  >>> 
> >>>    >; ice@ietf.org
> >>>  
> >>>    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org 
> >>> 
> >>>    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
> >>> -
> >>>    Information exchange requirements
> >>>
> >>>    Hi Harald (and others),
> >>>
> >>>    Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
> >>>    requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an
> >>>    existing section?
> >>>
> >>>    Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding
> >>> candidate
> >>>    exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the
> >>> other
> >>>    requirements fit there.
> >>>
> >>>    Regards,
> >>>
> >>>    Christer
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> >>>>> I was thinking of something like:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
> >>>    information being available to the ICE agent:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
> >>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
> >>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
> >>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
> >>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
> >>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
> >>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
> >>>    thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>    The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
> >>>    role if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both
> >>>    parties are Lite implementations. This means that it has to know
> >>>    that it's the initiating agent.
> >>>
> >>>    In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see
> >>> which
> >>>    one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties
> >>> get
> >>>    called for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a
> >>> join)
> >>>    or protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the
> >>>    decision on which side has the Initiator role.
> >>>
> >>>    I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
> >>>    exchange of information should give back the information to each
> >>>    about whether they should try to take the Controlling role, but
> >>> that
> >>>    may be a larger rewrite.
> >>>
> >>>    _______________________________________________
> >>>    rtcweb mailing list
> >>>    rtcweb@ietf.org  
> >>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >>>    
> >>>
> >>>    _______________________________________________
> >>>    Ice mailing list
> >>>    Ice@ietf.org  
> >>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
> >>>    
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ice mailing list
> >>> Ice@ietf.org 
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
> >>>
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>

--94eb2c11a66ca76429055bfef310
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand tha=
t "remote-candidates" SDP attribute described in https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-12#appendix-B=C2=A0d=
oes not actually affect ICE agents. It is only needed to control offer/answ=
er exchange, so that the information provided in this attribute does not ne=
ed to be mentioned. in draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis.

Beside=
s this, the change looks good.

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount


On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Christer Ho=
lmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:<=
br>
Hi,



I have added the change to the "selected clarification" PR:



https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48


Regards,



Christer




-----Original Message-----

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.=
org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg

Sent: 20 October 2017 10:19

To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@al=
vestrand.no>

Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.co=
m>; ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements



Hi,



I am ok with just fixing 4.3, as suggested by Harald.



Regards,



Christer



-----Original Message-----

From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:har=
ald@alvestrand.no]

Sent: 20 October 2017 10:08

To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>

Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.co=
m>; ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements



(removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)



Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:

> Hi,

>

> Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think
> we could simply reference that section.



Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So retit=
ling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the easiest fi=
x to this issue.



ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged th=
rough the ICE Usage", and changing "How this information is encod=
ed or exchanged is out of scope for this specification" to "How t=
his information is encoded or exchanged has to be specified as part of each=
 ICE usage, and is out of scope for this specification".



That would work for me, and is a smaller change.



>

> Regards,

>

> Christer

>

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no

> <mailto:harald@alvestrand.n=
o>> wrote:

>

>> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:

>>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and=C2=A0remote-ca=
ndidates?

>>

>> Yes.

>>

>> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> _____________

>>> Roman Shpount

>>>

>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg

>>> <christer=
.holmberg@ericsson.com

>>> <mailto:c=
hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com>

>>> <mailto:c=
hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com>>

>>> wrote:

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I suggest to add the following text to secti=
on 2.8 (Usages of ICE):

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for=
 the ICE agents to

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0exchange the following information:

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether the ICE =
agents supports ICE.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What ICE options=
, if any, the ICE agents support.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether an agent=
 represents a Lite or Full ICE

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0implementation.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether an agent=
 assumes it is has the role of the

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Initiating Agent.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ICE candidat=
es that the ICE agent wants to make

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0available.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether the ICE =
agent want to trigger an ICE restart.</t>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Regards,

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Christer

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-----Original Message-----

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Christer Holmb=
erg

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no

>>> <mailto:harald@alve=
strand.no>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>>; ice@ietf.org

>>> <mailto:ice@ietf.org>=
; <mailto:ice@ietf.org>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Cc: rtcwe=
b@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.or=
g>

>>> <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org<=
/a>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-i=
etf-ice-rfc5245bis-12

>>> -

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Information exchange requirements

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Harald (and others),

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Do you think we should add a new section (&q=
uot;ICE using protocol

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0requirements", or something), or do you=
 think the text fits in an

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0existing section?

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Section 4.3 already contains some requiremen=
ts regarding

>>> candidate

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but =
I don't think the

>>> other

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0requirements fit there.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Regards,

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Christer

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holm=
berg:

>>>>> I was thinking of something like:

>>>>>

>>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the followi=
ng

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0information being available to the ICE agent=
:

>>>>>

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all

>>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiati=
ng Agent or not

>>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make avail=
able

>>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired

>>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regardin=
g

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0thinking it's the initiating agent or no=
t.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The spec says that the initiating agent will=
 take the CONTROLLING

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0role if both parties are Full ICE implementa=
tions, or if both

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0parties are Lite implementations. This means=
 that it has to know

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0that it's the initiating agent.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), =
it's simple to see

>>> which

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party c=
ontrol (both parties

>>> get

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0called for setup), chat-line systems (both p=
arties initiate a

>>> join)

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0or protocols where glare is possible, someth=
ing has to make the

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0decision on which side has the Initiator rol=
e.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator conc=
ept, and say that the

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0exchange of information should give back the=
 information to each

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0about whether they should try to take the Co=
ntrolling role, but

>>> that

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0may be a larger rewrite.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________=
________

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0rtcweb mailing list

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0rtcweb@ie=
tf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>=


>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________=
________

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ice mailing list

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ice@ietf.org=
 <mailto:Ice@ietf.org> <ma=
ilto:Ice@ietf.org>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ice

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Ice mailing list

>>> Ice@ietf.org <mailto:Ice@ietf.org>

>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice=


>>>

>>



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice<=
/a>





--94eb2c11a66ca76429055bfef310--


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Dear Ari Keränen,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

ice Session 1 (1:00:00)
    Thursday, Afternoon Session II 1550-1750
    Room Name: VIP A size: 100
    ---------------------------------------------
    

Special Note: 1550-1650


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Interactive Connectivity Establishment
Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area
Session Requester: Ari Keränen

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1 Hour
Number of Attendees: 35
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: payload core rtcweb avtcore t2trg tls tsvarea tsvwg tram mmusic dispatch tcpm quic
 Second Priority: perc httpbis rmcat netvc sipbrandy stir
 Third Priority: ace 6lo lwig clue xrblock sipcore cbor


People who must be present:
  Ben Campbell
  Ari Keranen
  Peter Thatcher

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Roman Shpount 
CC: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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--_000_D613912A2475Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi Roman,

Is the attribute listed in 5245bis? I did not find it.

Regards,

Christer

From: Roman Shpount >
Date: Friday 20 October 2017 at 21:50
To: Christer Holmberg >
Cc: Harald Alvestrand >, =
"ice@ietf.org" >
Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements

I just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand that "remote-candida=
tes" SDP attribute described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmus=
ic-ice-sip-sdp-12#appendix-B does not actually affect ICE agents. It is onl=
y needed to control offer/answer exchange, so that the information provided=
 in this attribute does not need to be mentioned. in draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245=
bis.

Besides this, the change looks good.

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote:
Hi,

I have added the change to the "selected clarification" PR:

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh=
alf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 20 October 2017 10:19
To: Harald Alvestrand >
Cc: Roman Shpount >; ice@ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements

Hi,

I am ok with just fixing 4.3, as suggested by Harald.

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no]
Sent: 20 October 2017 10:08
To: Christer Holmberg >
Cc: Roman Shpount >; ice@ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements

(removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)

Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> Hi,
>
> Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think
> we could simply reference that section.

Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So retit=
ling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the easiest fi=
x to this issue.

ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged through the ICE Usag=
e", and changing "How this information is encoded or exchanged is out of sc=
ope for this specification" to "How this information is encoded or exchange=
d has to be specified as part of each ICE usage, and is out of scope for th=
is specification".

That would work for me, and is a smaller change.

>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand 
> >> wrote:
>
>> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:
>>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> _____________
>>> Roman Shpount
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg
>>> 
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
>>>
>>>    Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to
>>>    exchange the following information:
>>>    -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
>>>    -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
>>>    -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE
>>>    implementation.
>>>    -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the
>>>    Initiating Agent.
>>>    -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make
>>>    available.
>>>    -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
>>>
>>>    Regards,
>>>
>>>    Christer
>>>
>>>    -----Original Message-----
>>>    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
>>>    >] On=
 Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>>    Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
>>>    To: Harald Alvestrand 
>>> >
>>>    >>; ice@iet=
f.org
>>> > >
>>>    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org >
>>> >
>>>    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
>>> -
>>>    Information exchange requirements
>>>
>>>    Hi Harald (and others),
>>>
>>>    Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
>>>    requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an
>>>    existing section?
>>>
>>>    Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding
>>> candidate
>>>    exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the
>>> other
>>>    requirements fit there.
>>>
>>>    Regards,
>>>
>>>    Christer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>>>>> I was thinking of something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
>>>    information being available to the ICE agent:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
>>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
>>>    thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>    The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
>>>    role if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both
>>>    parties are Lite implementations. This means that it has to know
>>>    that it's the initiating agent.
>>>
>>>    In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see
>>> which
>>>    one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties
>>> get
>>>    called for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a
>>> join)
>>>    or protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the
>>>    decision on which side has the Initiator role.
>>>
>>>    I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
>>>    exchange of information should give back the information to each
>>>    about whether they should try to take the Controlling role, but
>>> that
>>>    may be a larger rewrite.
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    rtcweb mailing list
>>>    rtcweb@ietf.org > >
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>>    
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    Ice mailing list
>>>    Ice@ietf.org > >
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>    
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ice mailing list
>>> Ice@ietf.org >
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>
>>

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice


--_000_D613912A2475Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Hi Roman,







Is the attribute listed in 5245bis? I did not find it.







Regards,







Christer









From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>

Date: Friday 20 October 2017 at 21:=
50

To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>

Cc: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Re=
view of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements












I just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand tha=
t "remote-candidates" SDP attribute described in

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-12#appendix-B=
 does not actually affect ICE agents. It is only needed to control off=
er/answer exchange, so that the information provided in this attribute does=
 not need to be mentioned. in draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis.






Besides this, the change looks good.







Regards,









_________=
____

Roman Shpount






On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Christer Holmbe=
rg 
<chr=
ister.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:



Hi,



I have added the change to the "selected clarification" PR:



https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48


Regards,



Christer






-----Original Message-----

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.=
org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg

Sent: 20 October 2017 10:19

To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@al=
vestrand.no>

Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.co=
m>; 
ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements



Hi,



I am ok with just fixing 4.3, as suggested by Harald.



Regards,



Christer



-----Original Message-----

From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:har=
ald@alvestrand.no]

Sent: 20 October 2017 10:08

To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>

Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.co=
m>; 
ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements



(removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)



Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:

> Hi,

>

> Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think
> we could simply reference that section.



Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So retit=
ling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the easiest fi=
x to this issue.



ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged th=
rough the ICE Usage", and changing "How this information is encod=
ed or exchanged is out of scope for this specification" to "How t=
his information is encoded or exchanged has to be specified as part of
 each ICE usage, and is out of scope for this specification".



That would work for me, and is a smaller change.



>

> Regards,

>

> Christer

>

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no

> <mailto:harald@alvestrand.n=
o>> wrote:

>

>> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:

>>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-ca=
ndidates?

>>

>> Yes.

>>

>> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> _____________

>>> Roman Shpount

>>>

>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg

>>> <christer=
.holmberg@ericsson.com

>>> <mailto:c=
hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com>

>>> <mailto:c=
hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com>>

>>> wrote:

>>>

>>>    I suggest to add the following text to secti=
on 2.8 (Usages of ICE):

>>>

>>>    Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for=
 the ICE agents to

>>>    exchange the following information:

>>>    -       Whether the ICE =
agents supports ICE.</t>

>>>    -       What ICE options=
, if any, the ICE agents support.</t>

>>>    -       Whether an agent=
 represents a Lite or Full ICE

>>>    implementation.</t>

>>>    -       Whether an agent=
 assumes it is has the role of the

>>>    Initiating Agent.</t>

>>>    -       The ICE candidat=
es that the ICE agent wants to make

>>>    available.</t>

>>>    -       Whether the ICE =
agent want to trigger an ICE restart.</t>

>>>

>>>    Regards,

>>>

>>>    Christer

>>>

>>>    -----Original Message-----

>>>    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org

>>>    <mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Christer Holmb=
erg

>>>    Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30

>>>    To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no

>>> <mailto:harald@alve=
strand.no>

>>>    <mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>>;
ice@ietf.org

>>> <mailto:ice@ietf.org>=
; <mailto:ice@ietf.org>

>>>    Cc: rtcwe=
b@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.or=
g>

>>> <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org<=
/a>>

>>>    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-i=
etf-ice-rfc5245bis-12

>>> -

>>>    Information exchange requirements

>>>

>>>    Hi Harald (and others),

>>>

>>>    Do you think we should add a new section (&q=
uot;ICE using protocol

>>>    requirements", or something), or do you=
 think the text fits in an

>>>    existing section?

>>>

>>>    Section 4.3 already contains some requiremen=
ts regarding

>>> candidate

>>>    exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but =
I don't think the

>>> other

>>>    requirements fit there.

>>>

>>>    Regards,

>>>

>>>    Christer

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>    Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holm=
berg:

>>>>> I was thinking of something like:

>>>>>

>>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the followi=
ng

>>>    information being available to the ICE agent=
:

>>>>>

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all

>>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating A=
gent or not

>>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make avail=
able

>>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired

>>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regardin=
g

>>>    thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>    The spec says that the initiating agent will=
 take the CONTROLLING

>>>    role if both parties are Full ICE implementa=
tions, or if both

>>>    parties are Lite implementations. This means=
 that it has to know

>>>    that it's the initiating agent.

>>>

>>>    In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), =
it's simple to see

>>> which

>>>    one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party c=
ontrol (both parties

>>> get

>>>    called for setup), chat-line systems (both p=
arties initiate a

>>> join)

>>>    or protocols where glare is possible, someth=
ing has to make the

>>>    decision on which side has the Initiator rol=
e.

>>>

>>>    I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept,=
 and say that the

>>>    exchange of information should give back the=
 information to each

>>>    about whether they should try to take the Co=
ntrolling role, but

>>> that

>>>    may be a larger rewrite.

>>>

>>>    _______________________________________=
________

>>>    rtcweb mailing list

>>>    rtcweb@ie=
tf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>=


>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

>>>    <https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>

>>>

>>>    _______________________________________=
________

>>>    Ice mailing list

>>>    Ice@ietf.org=
 <mailto:Ice@ietf.org> <ma=
ilto:Ice@ietf.org>

>>>    https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ice

>>>    <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Ice mailing list

>>> Ice@ietf.org <mailto:Ice@ietf.org>

>>> 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

>>>

>>



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org





https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

















--_000_D613912A2475Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_--


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To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: 5245bis: PR #48 merged
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--_000_D613935824764christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

The following PR has been merged:

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48

Regards,

Christer


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Hi,







The following PR has been merged:













Regards,







Christer









--_000_D613935824764christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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Thread-Topic: [Ice] 5345bis: Too much overview - Pull request to clean-up/shorten the overview
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Hi,

I have created a PR, which tries to clean-up/shorten the overview.

I think there is still too much text, but doing a bigger clean-up would
require more time, so I=B9ll leave it for now.

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/50


Regards,

Christer


On 20/10/17 17:28, "Peter Saint-Andre"  wrote:

>On 10/20/17 8:24 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> One of the problems with the many ICE tutorials I=B9ve seen over the yea=
rs
>> is that they are too detailed: they contain stuff that is not relevant
>> in order to teach someone the basics of ICE.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I think we have the same problem in section 2 of 5245bis.
>
>Agreed!
>
>Peter
>
>
>


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Harald's PDF comments - Pull Request (#51)
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Hi,

I have created a pull request, based on the comments Harald provided in a
PDF file.

https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/51


Regards,

Christer


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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56364D2A@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56365198@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>  <3b325a91-f676-1e6e-c0f4-ff08ad08f634@alvestrand.no> <6AD93BC3-C2ED-4724-9106-E208F0478ECE@ericsson.com> <3a05e45f-f3af-7d05-fbf1-cd7e5ec971fd@alvestrand.no> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B563660B8@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B56366B77@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>  
From: Roman Shpount 
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:32:25 -0400
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Message-ID: 
To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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Christer,

The "remote-candidates" SDP attribute is not listed in 5245bis, but it was
listed in 5345 and it is listed in draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp. I just
wanted to confirm that data in this attribute does not affect ICE
negotiation and is only used to delay offer/answer response before ICE
nomination process completes. My main concern here is that something from
5245 did no get lost. As far as I can see it did not, but I might be
missing something. From what I have seen. "remote-candidates" SDP attribute
is inserted by implementations but its value is generally ignored.

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Roman,
>
> Is the attribute listed in 5245bis? I did not find it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> From: Roman Shpount 
> Date: Friday 20 October 2017 at 21:50
> To: Christer Holmberg 
> Cc: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org"  >
>
> Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
> Information exchange requirements
>
> I just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand that
> "remote-candidates" SDP attribute described in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-12#appendix-B does
> not actually affect ICE agents. It is only needed to control offer/answer
> exchange, so that the information provided in this attribute does not need
> to be mentioned. in draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis.
>
> Besides this, the change looks good.
>
> Regards,
>
> _____________
> Roman Shpount
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Christer Holmberg <
> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have added the change to the "selected clarification" PR:
>>
>> https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>> Sent: 20 October 2017 10:19
>> To: Harald Alvestrand 
>> Cc: Roman Shpount ; ice@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
>> Information exchange requirements
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am ok with just fixing 4.3, as suggested by Harald.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christer
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no]
>> Sent: 20 October 2017 10:08
>> To: Christer Holmberg 
>> Cc: Roman Shpount ; ice@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 -
>> Information exchange requirements
>>
>> (removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)
>>
>> Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think
>> > we could simply reference that section.
>>
>> Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So
>> retitling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the
>> easiest fix to this issue.
>>
>> ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged through the ICE
>> Usage", and changing "How this information is encoded or exchanged is out
>> of scope for this specification" to "How this information is encoded or
>> exchanged has to be specified as part of each ICE usage, and is out of
>> scope for this specification".
>>
>> That would work for me, and is a smaller change.
>>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Christer
>> >
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand > > > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:
>> >>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and remote-candidates?
>> >>
>> >> Yes.
>> >>
>> >> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> _____________
>> >>> Roman Shpount
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg
>> >>> > >>> 
>> >>> >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>    I suggest to add the following text to section 2.8 (Usages of ICE):
>> >>>
>> >>>    Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for the ICE agents to
>> >>>    exchange the following information:
>> >>>    -       Whether the ICE agents supports ICE.
>> >>>    -       What ICE options, if any, the ICE agents support.
>> >>>    -       Whether an agent represents a Lite or Full ICE
>> >>>    implementation.
>> >>>    -       Whether an agent assumes it is has the role of the
>> >>>    Initiating Agent.
>> >>>    -       The ICE candidates that the ICE agent wants to make
>> >>>    available.
>> >>>    -       Whether the ICE agent want to trigger an ICE restart.
>> >>>
>> >>>    Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>>    Christer
>> >>>
>> >>>    -----Original Message-----
>> >>>    From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org
>> >>>    ] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>> >>>    Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30
>> >>>    To: Harald Alvestrand > >>> 
>> >>>    >; ice@ietf.org
>> >>>  
>> >>>    Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org 
>> >>> 
>> >>>    Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
>> >>> -
>> >>>    Information exchange requirements
>> >>>
>> >>>    Hi Harald (and others),
>> >>>
>> >>>    Do you think we should add a new section ("ICE using protocol
>> >>>    requirements", or something), or do you think the text fits in an
>> >>>    existing section?
>> >>>
>> >>>    Section 4.3 already contains some requirements regarding
>> >>> candidate
>> >>>    exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but I don't think the
>> >>> other
>> >>>    requirements fit there.
>> >>>
>> >>>    Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>>    Christer
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>    Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>> >>>>> I was thinking of something like:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
>> >>>    information being available to the ICE agent:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>> >>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>> >>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>> >>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>> >>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>> >>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
>> >>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
>> >>>    thinking it's the initiating agent or not.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>    The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
>> >>>    role if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both
>> >>>    parties are Lite implementations. This means that it has to know
>> >>>    that it's the initiating agent.
>> >>>
>> >>>    In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see
>> >>> which
>> >>>    one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties
>> >>> get
>> >>>    called for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a
>> >>> join)
>> >>>    or protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the
>> >>>    decision on which side has the Initiator role.
>> >>>
>> >>>    I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
>> >>>    exchange of information should give back the information to each
>> >>>    about whether they should try to take the Controlling role, but
>> >>> that
>> >>>    may be a larger rewrite.
>> >>>
>> >>>    _______________________________________________
>> >>>    rtcweb mailing list
>> >>>    rtcweb@ietf.org  
>> >>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>> >>>    
>> >>>
>> >>>    _______________________________________________
>> >>>    Ice mailing list
>> >>>    Ice@ietf.org  
>> >>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>> >>>    
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Ice mailing list
>> >>> Ice@ietf.org 
>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>
>
>

--089e08253e34c3fd65055c3a3494
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Christer,

The=C2=A0"remote-candidates" SDP attribute=C2=A0<=
/span>is not listed in 5245bis, but it was listed in 5345 and it is listed =
in draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp. I just wanted to confirm that data in thi=
s attribute does not affect ICE negotiation and is only used to delay offer=
/answer response before ICE nomination process completes. My main concern h=
ere is that something from 5245 did no get lost. As far as I can see it did=
 not, but I might be missing something. From what I have seen. "remote=
-candidates" SDP attribute is inserted by implementations but its valu=
e is generally ignored.

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount


On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Christer Ho=
lmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:<=
br>







Hi Roman,







Is the attribute listed in 5245bis? I did not find it.







Regards,







Christer









From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>

Date: Friday 20 October 2017 at 21:=
50

To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmb=
erg@ericsson.com>

Cc: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no=
>, "ice@ietf.org<=
/a>" <ice@ietf.or=
g>


Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Re=
view of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements












I just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand tha=
t "remote-candidates" SDP attribute described in

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp-12#appe=
ndix-B=C2=A0does not actually affect ICE agents. It is only needed to c=
ontrol offer/answer exchange, so that the information provided in this attr=
ibute does not need to be mentioned. in draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis.






Besides this, the change looks good.







Regards,









_____________

Roman Shpount






On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Christer Holmbe=
rg 
<chr=
ister.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:



Hi,



I have added the change to the "selected clarification" PR:



https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/48


Regards,



Christer






-----Original Message-----

From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg

Sent: 20 October 2017 10:19

To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>

Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>; 
ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements



Hi,



I am ok with just fixing 4.3, as suggested by Harald.



Regards,



Christer



-----Original Message-----

From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no]

Sent: 20 October 2017 10:08

To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>

Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>; 
ice@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - I=
nformation exchange requirements



(removing rtcweb - this discussion is too detailed by now)



Den 20. okt. 2017 08:24, skrev Christer Holmberg:

> Hi,

>

> Detailed candidate requirements can be found in section 4.3. I think
> we could simply reference that section.



Hm. The list in #4.3 is actually the list that I suggested to add. So retit=
ling the section (as I suggested in detailed edits) might be the easiest fi=
x to this issue.



ie "Encoding the candidates" -> "Information exchanged th=
rough the ICE Usage", and changing "How this information is encod=
ed or exchanged is out of scope for this specification" to "How t=
his information is encoded or exchanged has to be specified as part of
 each ICE usage, and is out of scope for this specification".



That would work for me, and is a smaller change.



>

> Regards,

>

> Christer

>

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On 20 Oct 2017, at 6.56, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no

> <mailto:h=
arald@alvestrand.no>> wrote:

>

>> Den 19. okt. 2017 23:23, skrev Roman Shpount:

>>> Should this also include ice-ufrag, ice-pwd and=C2=A0remote-ca=
ndidates?

>>

>> Yes.

>>

>> (candidates are in bullet #4, I'd forgotten the others)

>>>

>>> Regards,

>>>

>>> _____________

>>> Roman Shpount

>>>

>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Christer Holmberg

>>> <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com

>>> <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>

>>> <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>

>>> wrote:

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I suggest to add the following text to secti=
on 2.8 (Usages of ICE):

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Each usage of ICE MUST define mechanisms for=
 the ICE agents to

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0exchange the following information:

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether the ICE =
agents supports ICE.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What ICE options=
, if any, the ICE agents support.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether an agent=
 represents a Lite or Full ICE

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0implementation.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether an agent=
 assumes it is has the role of the

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Initiating Agent.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The ICE candidat=
es that the ICE agent wants to make

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0available.</t>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Whether the ICE =
agent want to trigger an ICE restart.</t>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Regards,

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Christer

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-----Original Message-----

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf=
 Of Christer Holmberg

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Sent: 19 October 2017 17:30

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no

>>> <mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<mailto:harald@alvestrand.no>>;
ice@ietf.org

>>> <mailto:i=
ce@ietf.org> <mailto:ice@ietf.org>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

>>> <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-i=
etf-ice-rfc5245bis-12

>>> -

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Information exchange requirements

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Hi Harald (and others),

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Do you think we should add a new section (&q=
uot;ICE using protocol

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0requirements", or something), or do you=
 think the text fits in an

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0existing section?

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Section 4.3 already contains some requiremen=
ts regarding

>>> candidate

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0exchange (the 5th bullet in your list), but =
I don't think the

>>> other

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0requirements fit there.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Regards,

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Christer

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holm=
berg:

>>>>> I was thinking of something like:

>>>>>

>>>>> The exchange of information MUST result in the followi=
ng

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0information being available to the ICE agent=
:

>>>>>

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all

>>>>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full

>>>>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiati=
ng Agent or not

>>>>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make avail=
able

>>>>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired

>>>> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regardin=
g

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0thinking it's the initiating agent or no=
t.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The spec says that the initiating agent will=
 take the CONTROLLING

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0role if both parties are Full ICE implementa=
tions, or if both

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0parties are Lite implementations. This means=
 that it has to know

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0that it's the initiating agent.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), =
it's simple to see

>>> which

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0one is initiating. In cases with 3rd party c=
ontrol (both parties

>>> get

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0called for setup), chat-line systems (both p=
arties initiate a

>>> join)

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0or protocols where glare is possible, someth=
ing has to make the

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0decision on which side has the Initiator rol=
e.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator conc=
ept, and say that the

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0exchange of information should give back the=
 information to each

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0about whether they should try to take the Co=
ntrolling role, but

>>> that

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0may be a larger rewrite.

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________=
________

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0rtcweb mailing list

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0rtcweb@ietf.org <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org> <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/rtcweb

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>

>>>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________________________________=
________

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ice mailing list

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ice@ietf.org <mailto:Ice@ietf.org> <mailto:Ice@ietf.org>

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailma<=
wbr>n/listinfo/ice

>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/ice>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> Ice mailing list

>>> Ice@ietf.org=
 <mailto:Ice@ietf.=
org>

>>> 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

>>>

>>



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org





https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice






















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From: Christer Holmberg 
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CC: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Information exchange requirements
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal
        Authors         : Ari Keranen
                          Christer Holmberg
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-13.txt
	Pages           : 93
	Date            : 2017-10-24

Abstract:
   This document describes a protocol for Network Address Translator
   (NAT) traversal for UDP-based communication.  This protocol is called
   Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE).  ICE makes use of the
   Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) protocol and its
   extension, Traversal Using Relay NAT (TURN).

   This document obsoletes RFC 5245.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-13
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,

Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of draft-5=
245bis.

The last change I did, before submission, was the s/media/data change reque=
sted by Harald. There was no PR for that.

I suggest that the chairs give people a few days to check that their commen=
ts/issues have been properly implemented (most things have been done using =
PRs).

IF you still find something that you think is broken, or extremely unclear,=
 please let me know.

Also, I have added some names to the Acknowledgement section. If you think =
someone is missing, please let me know, and I will add him/her.

After that, I suggest that the chairs do the publication request.

Thanks!

Regards,

Christer



--_000_D614F827247E5christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,







Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of dr=
aft-5245bis.







The last change I did, before submission, was the s/media/data change =
requested by Harald. There was no PR for that.







I suggest that the chairs give people a few days to check that their c=
omments/issues have been properly implemented (most things have been done u=
sing PRs).







IF you still find something that you think is broken, or extremely unc=
lear, please let me know.







Also, I have added some names to the Acknowledgement section. If you t=
hink someone is missing, please let me know, and I will add him/her.







After that, I suggest that the chairs do the publication request.






Thanks!







Regards,







Christer














--_000_D614F827247E5christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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References: 
From: Peter Saint-Andre 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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On 10/24/17 4:54 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,
>=20
> Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of
> draft-5245bis.

Those changes look fine to me. Onward to WGLC! ;-)

Peter



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In-Reply-To: 
From: Peter Thatcher 
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 15:36:51 +0000
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To: Bernard Aboba 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Should teredo type preference be relayed or host?
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Seems like we've reached the conclusion that the reference to dual stack is
sufficient and we don't need to make any changes to the draft.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:55 PM Bernard Aboba 
wrote:

> We have found that Teredo candidates are rarely optimal, and often have
> high failure rates on checks, so that the "unreliable  connectiv
> ity" advice in the dual stack document applies well to them.
>
>
> On Oct 3, 2017 9:08 PM, "M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly"  w=
rote:
>
> The application should make decision based on the gathered IP address, an=
d
> if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO address and so
> "unreliable connectivity"?
>
> Am I understand you correctly?
> On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>
> Peter said:
>
> "It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network
> interface.  Is that correct?"
>
> [BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so the
> following snippets from
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness apply:
>
>    Applications should take special care to deprioritize network
>    interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
>    a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
>    provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
>    distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
>    interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
>    describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
>    provide unreliable connectivity...
>
>    Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be
>    ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
>    dual-stack candidates.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter Thatcher 
> wrote:
>
>> Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.  I thought you were saying that there was a
>> server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just mark
>> it's candidates as relay).
>>
>> It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network
>> interface.  Is that correct?
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Peter et al.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if
>>> they think it's wise?
>>>
>>> I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client".
>>> Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface=
)
>>> on windows with an IPv6 address
>>> It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local
>>> adapter/interface with IPv6 address.
>>>
>>> ICE will detect it as host candidate.
>>> It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my
>>> opinion it should be treated as relayed.
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>> Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
>>>
>>> sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 <%2831=
2%29%20395-8951> 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 =
typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
>>>
>>> TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and
>>> relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
>>> but it is  treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.
>>>
>>> ICE spec defines:
>>>
>>>    - host candidates
>>>
>>>    Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address
>>>    attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN
>>>    interfaces) on the host.
>>>
>>>    - type preferences.
>>>
>>> 4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences
>>>
>>>    The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
>>>    candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
>>>    reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.
>>>
>>>
>>> The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO
>>> according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
>>> According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "host
>>> candidate" with the highest type preference.
>>> VS.
>>> Relayed with type preference 0.
>>>
>>> IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host
>>> candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Misi
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>>>
>>> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if
>>> they think it's wise?  Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but
>>>>
>>>> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
>>>> according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.
>>>>
>>>> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also
>>>> relaying,
>>>> and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider it
>>>> as relayed type.
>>>>
>>>> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the other
>>>> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
>>>> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32=
)
>>>>
>>>> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
>>>> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home users
>>>> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.
>>>>
>>>> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a ver=
y
>>>> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay i=
n
>>>> UK.... :-(
>>>>
>>>> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
>>>> considered as relayed candidate..
>>>>
>>>> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to t=
he
>>>> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO
>>>> relay.
>>>>
>>>> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo consider=
ed
>>>> as host address,
>>>> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be al=
so
>>>> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, and
>>>> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text an
>>>> exception for this case.
>>>> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
>>>> the host interface, as relay and not as host.
>>>>
>>>> Please comment/correct my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Misi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ice mailing list
>>>> Ice@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>
>>
>
>
>

--f403045f2b0e7a63b8055c890f38
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Seems like we've reached the conclusion that the =
reference to dual stack is sufficient and we don't need to make any cha=
nges to the draft.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:55 PM Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> wrote:
<=
/div>
We have found th=
at Teredo candidates are rarely optimal, and often have high failure rates =
on checks, so that the "unreliable=C2=A0 connectiv
ity" advice in the dual stack document applies well to them.
=



On Oct 3, 2017 9:08 PM, "M=
=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly" <misi@niif.hu> wrote:

      The application should make decision based on the gathered IP
      address, and if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO
      address and so "unreliable connectivity"?

    
Am I understand you correctly? 

    

    
On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba
      wrote:

    

    

      
Peter said:=C2=A0
        


        

        
"It sounds like this is =
more
            similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is
            that correct?"

        


          

        
[BA] There have been
            problems with Teredo relay routability, so the following
            snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness
            apply:

        


          

        

          
   Applications should take special care to deprioritize networ=
k
   interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
   a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
   provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
   distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
   interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
   describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
   provide unreliable connectivity...

          

          
   =
Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be
   ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
   dual-stack candidates.

        

      

      


        
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter
          Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
          wrote:

          

            
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought yo=
u
              were saying that there was a server giving out candidates
              (in which case I thought it could just mark it's
              candidates as relay).
              


              

              
It sounds like this is more similar to host
                candidates on a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correc=
t?

              

                

                  


                    

                      
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM
                        M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu>
                        wrote:

                      

                      

                        
 Hi Peter
                          et al.

                        


                          

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say
                              the candidates are relayed if they think
                              it's wise?

                          

                        

                        
 I assume
                          "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology i=
s the
                          "Teredo client".

                          Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo
                          Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an
                          IPv6 address 

                          It seems to be a host candidate, because it
                          setups local adapter/interface with IPv6
                          address.

                          

                          ICE will detect it as host candidate.

                          It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled
                          and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be
                          treated as relayed.

                          

                          e.g.

                          Chrome: 57.0.2987.133=


                          
3123958951 1=
 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host generatio=
n 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50





                        

                        

                          
Why does this need to
                            be in the ICE spec?

                          

                        

                        
 TEREDO i=
s
                          an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is
                          a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in
                          many aspects, 

                          but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO th=
at
                          is not optimal.

                          

                          ICE spec defines:

                          
    
                            
  • host candidates 
    • 
                          

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by =
binding
                            to ports on an IP address

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (p=
hysical
                            or virtual, including VPN

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host.

                          
                          
    
                            
  • type preferences.
    • 
                          

                          
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and L=
ocal Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

                          

                          The Spec recommends, type preference for host
                          candidates, and TEREDO according current spec
                          definition is a "host candidate".

                          According these, Teredo as it is local host
                          IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" =
with
                          the highest type preference.

                          VS.

                          Relayed with type preference 0.

                          

                          IMHO spec should address this edge case where
                          it seems to be host candidate but it is more
                          related to tunneled/relayed.

                          

                          

                          Thanks,

                          Misi

                        


                          

                          
On
                            2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoi=
nts
                              just say the candidates are relayed if
                              they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this=
 need
                              to be in the ICE spec?

                            

                            

                              
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44
                                PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu>
                                wrote:

                              

                              
Hi,

                                

                                Please correct me if I totally
                                misunderstand the situation, but

                                

                                AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE
                                as a host candidate and

                                according it, we have to use the host
                                local type preference for it.

                                

                                (That seems to be logical because it is
                                on the host interface.)

                                

                                

                                IMHO that is not the right behavior,
                                because TEREDO is doing also relaying,

                                and should be not considered as host
                                candidate type rather consider it

                                as relayed type.

                                

                                I can configure a very close TURN relay
                                in WebRTC UA, but in the other

                                hand I can not set the TEREDO relay
                                location,

                                because it depends on the network
                                provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

                                

                                Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.

                                On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by
                                default, and all such home users

                                with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6
                                address configured.

                                

                                My experience was that my peers are
                                located in Hungary and I set a very

                                close Hungarian TURN server,
                                surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay
                                in

                                UK.... :-(

                                

                                If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying,
                                then I think TEREDO should also

                                considered as relayed candidate..

                                

                                If I have very close nice low latency
                                TURN service, that is close to the

                                communication peers, than I don't want
                                to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

                                

                                Actually according to the actual ICE
                                behavior, because Teredo considered

                                as host address,

                                ICE will definitely choose and use
                                TEREDO relay, even if it will be also

                                relayed like TURN, and may even adds
                                more latency than the TURN.

                                

                                

                                All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc
                                should clarify this case, and

                                because TEREDO is also relaying, so I
                                propose to define in the text an

                                exception for this case.

                                Consider TEREDO candidate type
                                preference even if it is discovered on

                                the host interface, as relay and not as
                                host.

                                

                                Please comment/correct my thoughts.

                                

                                Thanks,

                                

                                Misi

                                

                                

                                ___________________________________________=
____

                                Ice mailing list

                                Ice@ietf.org

                                https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/ice

                              

                            

                          

                          

                        

                      

                    

                  

                

              

            

            

            _______________________________________________

            Ice mailing list

            Ice@ietf.org<=
/a>

            https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
            

          

        

        

      

    

    

  






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From: Bernard Aboba 
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:25:09 -0700
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Agreed.

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Peter Thatcher 
wrote:

> Seems like we've reached the conclusion that the reference to dual stack
> is sufficient and we don't need to make any changes to the draft.
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:55 PM Bernard Aboba 
> wrote:
>
>> We have found that Teredo candidates are rarely optimal, and often have
>> high failure rates on checks, so that the "unreliable  connectiv
>> ity" advice in the dual stack document applies well to them.
>>
>>
>> On Oct 3, 2017 9:08 PM, "M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly"  =
wrote:
>>
>> The application should make decision based on the gathered IP address,
>> and if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO address and so
>> "unreliable connectivity"?
>>
>> Am I understand you correctly?
>> On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>
>> Peter said:
>>
>> "It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network
>> interface.  Is that correct?"
>>
>> [BA] There have been problems with Teredo relay routability, so the
>> following snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/
>> draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness apply:
>>
>>    Applications should take special care to deprioritize network
>>    interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
>>    a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
>>    provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
>>    distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
>>    interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
>>    describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
>>    provide unreliable connectivity...
>>
>>    Candidates with IP addresses from an unreliable interface should be
>>    ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
>>    dual-stack candidates.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter Thatcher 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.  I thought you were saying that there was a
>>> server giving out candidates (in which case I thought it could just mar=
k
>>> it's candidates as relay).
>>>
>>> It sounds like this is more similar to host candidates on a VPN network
>>> interface.  Is that correct?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Peter et al.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if
>>>> they think it's wise?
>>>>
>>>> I assume "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology is the "Teredo client".
>>>> Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo Tunneling
>>>> Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an IPv6 address
>>>> It seems to be a host candidate, because it setups local
>>>> adapter/interface with IPv6 address.
>>>>
>>>> ICE will detect it as host candidate.
>>>> It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled and relayed, and so in my
>>>> opinion it should be treated as relayed.
>>>>
>>>> e.g.
>>>> Chrome: 57.0.2987.133
>>>>
>>>> sdpMid: audio, sdpMLineIndex: 0, candidate: candidate:3123958951 <%283=
12%29%20395-8951> 1 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819=
 typ host generation 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
>>>>
>>>> TEREDO is an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is a tunnel and
>>>> relay very similarly to TURN in many aspects,
>>>> but it is  treated as host candidate IMHO that is not optimal.
>>>>
>>>> ICE spec defines:
>>>>
>>>>    - host candidates
>>>>
>>>>    Host candidates are obtained by binding to ports on an IP address
>>>>    attached to an interface (physical or virtual, including VPN
>>>>    interfaces) on the host.
>>>>
>>>>    - type preferences.
>>>>
>>>> 4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and Local Preferences
>>>>
>>>>    The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
>>>>    candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
>>>>    reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Spec recommends, type preference for host candidates, and TEREDO
>>>> according current spec definition is a "host candidate".
>>>> According these, Teredo as it is local host IPv6 address, it is a "hos=
t
>>>> candidate" with the highest type preference.
>>>> VS.
>>>> Relayed with type preference 0.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO spec should address this edge case where it seems to be host
>>>> candidate but it is more related to tunneled/relayed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Misi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say the candidates are relayed if
>>>> they think it's wise?  Why does this need to be in the ICE spec?
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44 PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please correct me if I totally misunderstand the situation, but
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE as a host candidate and
>>>>> according it, we have to use the host local type preference for it.
>>>>>
>>>>> (That seems to be logical because it is on the host interface.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO that is not the right behavior, because TEREDO is doing also
>>>>> relaying,
>>>>> and should be not considered as host candidate type rather consider i=
t
>>>>> as relayed type.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can configure a very close TURN relay in WebRTC UA, but in the othe=
r
>>>>> hand I can not set the TEREDO relay location,
>>>>> because it depends on the network provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/3=
2)
>>>>>
>>>>> Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.
>>>>> On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by default, and all such home user=
s
>>>>> with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6 address configured.
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience was that my peers are located in Hungary and I set a ve=
ry
>>>>> close Hungarian TURN server, surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay =
in
>>>>> UK.... :-(
>>>>>
>>>>> If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying, then I think TEREDO should also
>>>>> considered as relayed candidate..
>>>>>
>>>>> If I have very close nice low latency TURN service, that is close to
>>>>> the
>>>>> communication peers, than I don't want to prefer so much the TEREDO
>>>>> relay.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually according to the actual ICE behavior, because Teredo
>>>>> considered
>>>>> as host address,
>>>>> ICE will definitely choose and use TEREDO relay, even if it will be
>>>>> also
>>>>> relayed like TURN, and may even adds more latency than the TURN.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc should clarify this case, an=
d
>>>>> because TEREDO is also relaying, so I propose to define in the text a=
n
>>>>> exception for this case.
>>>>> Consider TEREDO candidate type preference even if it is discovered on
>>>>> the host interface, as relay and not as host.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please comment/correct my thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Misi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ice mailing list
>>>>> Ice@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ice mailing list
>>> Ice@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>

--001a114f76c44d9582055c8a93c9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Agreed.

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher=
@google.com> wrote:
Seems like we've reached the conclusion that the referen=
ce to dual stack is sufficient and we don't need to make any changes to=
 the draft.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:55=
 PM Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> wrote:
We have found that Teredo candidates a=
re rarely optimal, and often have high failure rates on checks, so that the=
 "unreliable=C2=A0 connectiv
ity" advice i=
n the dual stack document applies well to them.


On Oct 3, 2017 9:08 PM, "M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=
=A1ly" <misi@niif=
.hu> wrote:

      The application should make decision based on the gathered IP
      address, and if it has prefix 2001::/32 then consider it as TEREDO
      address and so "unreliable connectivity"?

    
Am I understand you correctly? 

    

    
On 2017-10-03 18:09, Bernard Aboba
      wrote:

    

    

      
Peter said:=C2=A0
        


        

        
"It sounds like this is =
more
            similar to host candidates on a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is
            that correct?"

        


          

        
[BA] There have been
            problems with Teredo relay routability, so the following
            snippets from https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-dualstack-fairness
            apply:

        


          

        

          
   Applications should take special care =
to deprioritize network
   interfaces known to provide unreliable connectivity when operating in
   a multihomed environment.  For example, certain tunnel services might
   provide unreliable connectivity.  Doing so will ensure a more fair
   distribution of the connectivity checks across available network
   interfaces on the device.  The simple guidelines presented here
   describe how to deprioritize interfaces known by the application to
   provide unreliable connectivity...

          

          
   Candidates with IP addresses fr=
om an unreliable interface should be
   ordered at the end of the checklist, i.e., not intermingled as the
   dual-stack candidates.

        

      

      


        
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 10:05 PM, Peter
          Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
          wrote:

          

            
Ah, I misunderstood TEREDO.=C2=A0 I thought yo=
u
              were saying that there was a server giving out candidates
              (in which case I thought it could just mark it's
              candidates as relay).
              


              

              
It sounds like this is more similar to host
                candidates on a VPN network interface.=C2=A0 Is that correc=
t?

              

                

                  


                    

                      
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 9:57 PM
                        M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu>
                        wrote:

                      

                      

                        
 Hi Peter
                          et al.

                        


                          

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoints just say
                              the candidates are relayed if they think
                              it's wise?

                          

                        

                        
 I assume
                          "TEREDO endpoint" in your terminology i=
s the
                          "Teredo client".

                          Teredo Client setups a new interface (Teredo
                          Tunneling Pseudo-Interface) on windows with an
                          IPv6 address 

                          It seems to be a host candidate, because it
                          setups local adapter/interface with IPv6
                          address.

                          

                          ICE will detect it as host candidate.

                          It seems host candidate, but it is tunneled
                          and relayed, and so in my opinion it should be
                          treated as relayed.

                          

                          e.g.

                          Chrome: 57.0.2987.133=


                          
3123958951 1=
 udp 212225510 2001::5ef5:79fd:2c57:21fb:3e1e:c8bb 54819 typ host gene=
ration 1 ufrag D02B network-id 1 network-cost 50





                        

                        

                          
Why does this need to
                            be in the ICE spec?

                          

                        

                        
 TEREDO i=
s
                          an IPv6 smooth transition technology, that is
                          a tunnel and relay very similarly to TURN in
                          many aspects, 

                          but it is=C2=A0 treated as host candidate IMHO th=
at
                          is not optimal.

                          

                          ICE spec defines:

                          
    
                            
  • host candidates 
    • 
                          

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 Host candidates are obtained by =
binding
                            to ports on an IP address

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 attached to an interface (p=
hysical
                            or virtual, including VPN

                          =C2=A0=C2=A0 interfaces) on the host.

                          
                          
    
                            
  • type preferences.
    • 
                          

                          
4.1.2.2.  Guidelines for Choosing Type and L=
ocal Preferences

   The RECOMMENDED values for type preferences are 126 for host
   candidates, 110 for peer reflexive candidates, 100 for server
   reflexive candidates, and 0 for relayed candidates.

                          

                          The Spec recommends, type preference for host
                          candidates, and TEREDO according current spec
                          definition is a "host candidate".

                          According these, Teredo as it is local host
                          IPv6 address, it is a "host candidate" =
with
                          the highest type preference.

                          VS.

                          Relayed with type preference 0.

                          

                          IMHO spec should address this edge case where
                          it seems to be host candidate but it is more
                          related to tunneled/relayed.

                          

                          

                          Thanks,

                          Misi

                        


                          

                          
On
                            2017-10-03 00:49, Peter Thatcher wrote:

                          

                          

                            
Why wouldn't TEREDO endpoi=
nts
                              just say the candidates are relayed if
                              they think it's wise?=C2=A0 Why does this=
 need
                              to be in the ICE spec?

                            

                            

                              
On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:44
                                PM M=C3=A9sz=C3=A1ros Mih=C3=A1ly <misi@niif.hu>
                                wrote:

                              

                              
Hi,

                                

                                Please correct me if I totally
                                misunderstand the situation, but

                                

                                AFAIU Teredo is considered according ICE
                                as a host candidate and

                                according it, we have to use the host
                                local type preference for it.

                                

                                (That seems to be logical because it is
                                on the host interface.)

                                

                                

                                IMHO that is not the right behavior,
                                because TEREDO is doing also relaying,

                                and should be not considered as host
                                candidate type rather consider it

                                as relayed type.

                                

                                I can configure a very close TURN relay
                                in WebRTC UA, but in the other

                                hand I can not set the TEREDO relay
                                location,

                                because it depends on the network
                                provider BGP. (anycast BGP 2001::/32)

                                

                                Many endpoints is doing TEREDO.

                                On Windows AFAIK TEREDO is enabled by
                                default, and all such home users

                                with ipv4 only + nat box has TEREDO IPv6
                                address configured.

                                

                                My experience was that my peers are
                                located in Hungary and I set a very

                                close Hungarian TURN server,
                                surprisingly the media use TEREDO relay
                                in

                                UK.... :-(

                                

                                If TURN and TEREDO both do relaying,
                                then I think TEREDO should also

                                considered as relayed candidate..

                                

                                If I have very close nice low latency
                                TURN service, that is close to the

                                communication peers, than I don't want
                                to prefer so much the TEREDO relay.

                                

                                Actually according to the actual ICE
                                behavior, because Teredo considered

                                as host address,

                                ICE will definitely choose and use
                                TEREDO relay, even if it will be also

                                relayed like TURN, and may even adds
                                more latency than the TURN.

                                

                                

                                All in all, I think the new 5254-bis rfc
                                should clarify this case, and

                                because TEREDO is also relaying, so I
                                propose to define in the text an

                                exception for this case.

                                Consider TEREDO candidate type
                                preference even if it is discovered on

                                the host interface, as relay and not as
                                host.

                                

                                Please comment/correct my thoughts.

                                

                                Thanks,

                                

                                Misi

                                

                                

                                ______________________________________=
_________

                                Ice mailing list

                                Ice@ietf.org

                                https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/ice

                              

                            

                          

                          

                        

                      

                    

                  

                

              

            

            

            _______________________________________________

            Ice mailing list

            Ice@ietf.org<=
/a>

            https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice<=
/a>

            

          

        

        

      

    

    

  









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From: Peter Thatcher 
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 17:47:53 +0000
Message-ID: 
To: Harald Alvestrand 
Cc: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" 
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I looked through all of Harald's suggestions and I reviewed the PRs since
then, and it appears to me that most, if not all, of Harald's suggestions
have been incorporated into the doc.

Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missing that we need
to do?

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:32 PM Harald Alvestrand 
wrote:

> Leaving in only the one with something left to write...
>
> Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
> >> I was thinking of something like:
> >>
> >> The exchange of information MUST result in the following information
> being available to the ICE agent:
> >>
> >> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
> >> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
> >> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
> >> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
> >> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
> >> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
> > Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking
> it's the initiating agent or not.
> >
> >
>
> The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role
> if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are
> Lite implementations. This means that it has to know that it's the
> initiating agent.
>
> In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which one
> is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called
> for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or
> protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the decision on
> which side has the Initiator role.
>
> I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange
> of information should give back the information to each about whether
> they should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger
> rewrite.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>

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I looked through all of Harald's suggestions and I rev=
iewed the PRs since then, and it appears to me that most, if not all, of Ha=
rald's suggestions have been incorporated into the doc.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missin=
g that we need to do?=C2=A0=C2=A0

Leaving in only the one with somethi=
ng left to write...



Den 17. okt. 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:

>> I was thinking of something like:

>>

>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following informati=
on being available to the ICE agent:

>>

>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all

>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported

>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full

>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or =
not

>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available

>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired

> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking i=
t's the initiating agent or not.

>

>



The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role

if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are

Lite implementations. This means that it has to know that it's the

initiating agent.



In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which on=
e

is initiating. In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called

for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or

protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the decision on
which side has the Initiator role.



I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange<=
br>
of information should give back the information to each about whether

they should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger

rewrite.



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice




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From: Peter Thatcher 
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 18:17:52 +0000
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Looking through Peter's suggestions and reviewing the PR and email thread,
it appears to me that most, if not all, of Peter's suggestions have been
resolved.

Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missing that we need
to do?

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 4:01 AM Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> The PR has been merged.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
> On 17/10/17 15:34, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>  wrote:
>
> >New PR (I messed up the previous one :)
> >
> >https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/47
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Christer
> >
> >On 17/10/17 15:11, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
> > wrote=
:
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>Is there a reason why we couldn=E2=80=99t simply re-name the section to=
 "ICE
> >>mismatch"? Because, that=E2=80=99s what it=E2=80=99s all about, and tha=
t=E2=80=99s also the
> >>wording used elsewhere in the document to reference it.
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>
> >>Christer
> >>
> >>On 16/10/17 21:55, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
> >>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hi,
> >>>
> >>>>>>>> =C2=A74.4 says:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   Certain middleboxes, such as ALGs, may alter the ICE candidate
> >>>>>>>>   information that breaks ICE.  If the using protocol is
> >>>>>>>>vulnerable
> >>>>>>>>to
> >>>>>>>>   this kind of changes, called ICE mismatch, the responding agen=
t
> >>>>>>>>needs
> >>>>>>>>   to detect this and signal this back to the initiating agent.
> >>>>>>>>The
> >>>>>>>>   details on whether this is needed and how it is done is define=
d
> >>>>>>>>by
> >>>>>>>>   the usage specifications.  One exception to the above is that =
an
> >>>>>>>>   initiating agent would never indicate ICE mismatch.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In general, how can the responding agent determine that such
> >>>>>>>> breakage has occurred if it doesn't know what the initiating age=
nt
> >>>>>>>> sent? And why wouldn't the initiating agent also have some
> >>>>>>>> responsibility for detecting ICE mismatch in the other direction
> >>>>>>>> (i.e., from the responding agent to the initiating agent)?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> First, I think the section title is misleading. It=C2=B9s not abo=
ut
> >>>>>>> verifying ICE support.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Could we simply remove the whole section?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That seems fine.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had a chat with Ari today, and he does not think we should remove
> >>>>>it. Perhaps we should change the title
> >>>>> or something, but we should keep the text.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, then your question would still apply.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In draft-ice-sip-sdp, the determination is done by comparing the
> >>>>>c/m-line address:port with the candidate
> >>>>> attributes, and if there is no match then it is assumed that an
> >>>>>intermediary has modified the c/m-line without doing the correspondi=
ng
> >>>>>attribute changes.
> >>>>
> >>>> OK. So I guess we should at least say that mechanisms for determinin=
g
> >>>>ICE mismatch are the responsibility of the using protocol.
> >>>
> >>>Yes.
> >>>
> >>>Also, instead of saying "may alter the ICE candidate information that
> >>>breaks ICE " I would say something more generic, e.g., "may alter
> >>>information that breaks ICE".
> >>>
> >>>Because, in the case of ice-sip-sdp, the problem is that the ALG does
> >>>NOT
> >>>alter the candidate information :)
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Christer
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Ice mailing list
> >>>Ice@ietf.org
> >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Ice mailing list
> >>Ice@ietf.org
> >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Ice mailing list
> >Ice@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ice mailing list
> Ice@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>

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Looking through Peter&=
#39;s suggestions and reviewing the PR and email thread, it appears to me t=
hat most, if not all, of Peter's suggestions have been resolved.=


Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missing that we n=
eed to do?=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 4:01 AM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>=
; wrote:
The PR has been merged.


Regards,



Christer





On 17/10/17 15:34, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"

<ice-bounces@i=
etf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:



>New PR (I messed up the previous one :)

>

>https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/47

>

>

>Regards,

>

>Christer

>

>On 17/10/17 15:11, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"

><ice-bounc=
es@ietf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

>

>>Hi,

>>

>>Is there a reason why we couldn=E2=80=99t simply re-name the sectio=
n to "ICE

>>mismatch"? Because, that=E2=80=99s what it=E2=80=99s all about=
, and that=E2=80=99s also the

>>wording used elsewhere in the document to reference it.

>>

>>Regards,

>>

>>Christer

>>

>>On 16/10/17 21:55, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>><ice-b=
ounces@ietf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

>>

>>>Hi,

>>>

>>>>>>>> =C2=A74.4 says:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Certain middleboxes, such as A=
LGs, may alter the ICE candidate

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0information that breaks ICE.=
=C2=A0 If the using protocol is

>>>>>>>>vulnerable

>>>>>>>>to

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0this kind of changes, called I=
CE mismatch, the responding agent

>>>>>>>>needs

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0to detect this and signal this=
 back to the initiating agent.

>>>>>>>>The

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0details on whether this is nee=
ded and how it is done is defined

>>>>>>>>by

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the usage specifications.=C2=
=A0 One exception to the above is that an

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0initiating agent would never i=
ndicate ICE mismatch.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> In general, how can the responding agent d=
etermine that such

>>>>>>>> breakage has occurred if it doesn't kn=
ow what the initiating agent

>>>>>>>> sent? And why wouldn't the initiating =
agent also have some

>>>>>>>> responsibility for detecting ICE mismatch =
in the other direction

>>>>>>>> (i.e., from the responding agent to the in=
itiating agent)?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> First, I think the section title is misleading=
. It=C2=B9s not about

>>>>>>> verifying ICE support.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Could we simply remove the whole section?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> That seems fine.

>>>>>

>>>>> I had a chat with Ari today, and he does not think we =
should remove

>>>>>it. Perhaps we should change the title

>>>>> or something, but we should keep the text.

>>>>>

>>>>> However, then your question would still apply.

>>>>>

>>>>> In draft-ice-sip-sdp, the determination is done by com=
paring the

>>>>>c/m-line address:port with the candidate

>>>>> attributes, and if there is no match then it is assume=
d that an

>>>>>intermediary has modified the c/m-line without doing th=
e corresponding

>>>>>attribute changes.

>>>>

>>>> OK. So I guess we should at least say that mechanisms for =
determining

>>>>ICE mismatch are the responsibility of the using protocol.<=
br>
>>>

>>>Yes.

>>>

>>>Also, instead of saying "may alter the ICE candidate infor=
mation that

>>>breaks ICE " I would say something more generic, e.g., &qu=
ot;may alter

>>>information that breaks ICE".

>>>

>>>Because, in the case of ice-sip-sdp, the problem is that the AL=
G does

>>>NOT

>>>alter the candidate information :)

>>>

>>>Regards,

>>>

>>>Christer

>>>

>>>_______________________________________________

>>>Ice mailing list

>>>Ice@ietf.org<=
/a>

>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>

>>_______________________________________________

>>Ice mailing list

>>Ice@ietf.org<=
br>
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

>

>_______________________________________________

>Ice mailing list

>Ice@ietf.org

>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice




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To: Peter Thatcher 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12 - Peter S-A technical comments
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I think we're good!

Peter

> On Oct 28, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Peter Thatcher  wrote:=

>=20
> Looking through Peter's suggestions and reviewing the PR and email thread,=
 it appears to me that most, if not all, of Peter's suggestions have been re=
solved.
>=20
> Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missing that we need t=
o do? =20
>=20
>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 4:01 AM Christer Holmberg  wrote:
>> The PR has been merged.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Christer
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 17/10/17 15:34, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>>  wrote:=

>>=20
>> >New PR (I messed up the previous one :)
>> >
>> >https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/47
>> >
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Christer
>> >
>> >On 17/10/17 15:11, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>> > wrote=
:
>> >
>> >>Hi,
>> >>
>> >>Is there a reason why we couldn=E2=80=99t simply re-name the section to=
 "ICE
>> >>mismatch"? Because, that=E2=80=99s what it=E2=80=99s all about, and tha=
t=E2=80=99s also the
>> >>wording used elsewhere in the document to reference it.
>> >>
>> >>Regards,
>> >>
>> >>Christer
>> >>
>> >>On 16/10/17 21:55, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>> >> wrot=
e:
>> >>
>> >>>Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>>> =C2=A74.4 says:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>   Certain middleboxes, such as ALGs, may alter the ICE candidate=

>> >>>>>>>>   information that breaks ICE.  If the using protocol is
>> >>>>>>>>vulnerable
>> >>>>>>>>to
>> >>>>>>>>   this kind of changes, called ICE mismatch, the responding agen=
t
>> >>>>>>>>needs
>> >>>>>>>>   to detect this and signal this back to the initiating agent.
>> >>>>>>>>The
>> >>>>>>>>   details on whether this is needed and how it is done is define=
d
>> >>>>>>>>by
>> >>>>>>>>   the usage specifications.  One exception to the above is that a=
n
>> >>>>>>>>   initiating agent would never indicate ICE mismatch.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> In general, how can the responding agent determine that such
>> >>>>>>>> breakage has occurred if it doesn't know what the initiating age=
nt
>> >>>>>>>> sent? And why wouldn't the initiating agent also have some
>> >>>>>>>> responsibility for detecting ICE mismatch in the other direction=

>> >>>>>>>> (i.e., from the responding agent to the initiating agent)?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> First, I think the section title is misleading. It=C2=B9s not abo=
ut
>> >>>>>>> verifying ICE support.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Could we simply remove the whole section?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> That seems fine.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I had a chat with Ari today, and he does not think we should remove=

>> >>>>>it. Perhaps we should change the title
>> >>>>> or something, but we should keep the text.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> However, then your question would still apply.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In draft-ice-sip-sdp, the determination is done by comparing the
>> >>>>>c/m-line address:port with the candidate
>> >>>>> attributes, and if there is no match then it is assumed that an
>> >>>>>intermediary has modified the c/m-line without doing the correspondi=
ng
>> >>>>>attribute changes.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OK. So I guess we should at least say that mechanisms for determinin=
g
>> >>>>ICE mismatch are the responsibility of the using protocol.
>> >>>
>> >>>Yes.
>> >>>
>> >>>Also, instead of saying "may alter the ICE candidate information that
>> >>>breaks ICE " I would say something more generic, e.g., "may alter
>> >>>information that breaks ICE".
>> >>>
>> >>>Because, in the case of ice-sip-sdp, the problem is that the ALG does
>> >>>NOT
>> >>>alter the candidate information :)
>> >>>
>> >>>Regards,
>> >>>
>> >>>Christer
>> >>>
>> >>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>Ice mailing list
>> >>>Ice@ietf.org
>> >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Ice mailing list
>> >>Ice@ietf.org
>> >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Ice mailing list
>> >Ice@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

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I think we're good!

Peter
=


On Oct 28, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com> wrote:

Looking through Peter's suggestions and reviewing the PR and email thread=
, it appears to me that most, if not all, of Peter's suggestions have been r=
esolved.

Do the two of you agree, or is there something still miss=
ing that we need to do?  

On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 4:01 AM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com=
> wrote:
The PR has been merge=
d.



Regards,



Christer





On 17/10/17 15:34, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"

<ice-bounces@ie=
tf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:



>New PR (I messed up the previous one :)

>

>https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/47

>

>

>Regards,

>

>Christer

>

>On 17/10/17 15:11, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"

><ice-bounce=
s@ietf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

>

>>Hi,

>>

>>Is there a reason why we couldn=E2=80=99t simply re-name the section=
 to "ICE

>>mismatch"? Because, that=E2=80=99s what it=E2=80=99s all about, and t=
hat=E2=80=99s also the

>>wording used elsewhere in the document to reference it.

>>

>>Regards,

>>

>>Christer

>>

>>On 16/10/17 21:55, "Ice on behalf of Christer Holmberg"

>><ice-bo=
unces@ietf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

>>

>>>Hi,

>>>

>>>>>>>> =C2=A74.4 says:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>   Certain middleboxes, such as AL=
Gs, may alter the ICE candidate

>>>>>>>>   information that breaks ICE.&nb=
sp; If the using protocol is

>>>>>>>>vulnerable

>>>>>>>>to

>>>>>>>>   this kind of changes, called IC=
E mismatch, the responding agent

>>>>>>>>needs

>>>>>>>>   to detect this and signal this b=
ack to the initiating agent.

>>>>>>>>The

>>>>>>>>   details on whether this is need=
ed and how it is done is defined

>>>>>>>>by

>>>>>>>>   the usage specifications. =
 One exception to the above is that an

>>>>>>>>   initiating agent would never in=
dicate ICE mismatch.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> In general, how can the responding agent de=
termine that such

>>>>>>>> breakage has occurred if it doesn't know wh=
at the initiating agent

>>>>>>>> sent? And why wouldn't the initiating agent=
 also have some

>>>>>>>> responsibility for detecting ICE mismatch i=
n the other direction

>>>>>>>> (i.e., from the responding agent to the ini=
tiating agent)?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> First, I think the section title is misleading.=
 It=C2=B9s not about

>>>>>>> verifying ICE support.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Could we simply remove the whole section?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> That seems fine.

>>>>>

>>>>> I had a chat with Ari today, and he does not think we s=
hould remove

>>>>>it. Perhaps we should change the title

>>>>> or something, but we should keep the text.

>>>>>

>>>>> However, then your question would still apply.

>>>>>

>>>>> In draft-ice-sip-sdp, the determination is done by comp=
aring the

>>>>>c/m-line address:port with the candidate

>>>>> attributes, and if there is no match then it is assumed=
 that an

>>>>>intermediary has modified the c/m-line without doing the=
 corresponding

>>>>>attribute changes.

>>>>

>>>> OK. So I guess we should at least say that mechanisms for d=
etermining

>>>>ICE mismatch are the responsibility of the using protocol.
>>>

>>>Yes.

>>>

>>>Also, instead of saying "may alter the ICE candidate information=
 that

>>>breaks ICE " I would say something more generic, e.g., "may alte=
r

>>>information that breaks ICE".

>>>

>>>Because, in the case of ice-sip-sdp, the problem is that the ALG=
 does

>>>NOT

>>>alter the candidate information :)

>>>

>>>Regards,

>>>

>>>Christer

>>>

>>>_______________________________________________

>>>Ice mailing list

>>>Ice@ietf.org

>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
=

>>

>>_______________________________________________

>>Ice mailing list

>>Ice@ietf.org
>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

>

>_______________________________________________

>Ice mailing list

>Ice@ietf.org

>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice




=

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To: ice@ietf.org,Peter Thatcher 
CC: "ice@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Christer Holmberg 
From: Harald Alvestrand 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] WGLC Review of draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-12
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I think the rewrites done are entirely satisfactory=2E There's always thing=
s one can quibble about, but finishing is valuable=2E On to IETF Last Call!

Den 28=2E oktober 2017 19:47:53 CEST, skrev Peter Thatcher :
>I looked through all of Harald's suggestions and I reviewed the PRs
>since
>then, and it appears to me that most, if not all, of Harald's
>suggestions
>have been incorporated into the doc=2E
>
>Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missing that we
>need
>to do?
>
>On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:32 PM Harald Alvestrand
>
>wrote:
>
>> Leaving in only the one with something left to write=2E=2E=2E
>>
>> Den 17=2E okt=2E 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:
>> >> I was thinking of something like:
>> >>
>> >> The exchange of information MUST result in the following
>information
>> being available to the ICE agent:
>> >>
>> >> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all
>> >> - What ICE options, if any, are supported
>> >> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full
>> >> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not
>> >> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available
>> >> - Whether an ICE restart is desired
>> > Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding
>thinking
>> it's the initiating agent or not=2E
>> >
>> >
>>
>> The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING
>role
>> if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are
>> Lite implementations=2E This means that it has to know that it's the
>> initiating agent=2E
>>
>> In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which
>one
>> is initiating=2E In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get
>called
>> for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or
>> protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the decision
>on
>> which side has the Initiator role=2E
>>
>> I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the
>exchange
>> of information should give back the information to each about whether
>> they should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a
>larger
>> rewrite=2E
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ice mailing list
>> Ice@ietf=2Eorg
>> https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/ice
>>

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------T44WE4HWJ5P2D1FWX7O25QPQMTHE2X
Content-Type: text/html;
 charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think the rewrites done are entirely satisfactor=
y=2E There's always things one can quibble about, but finishing is valu=
able=2E On to IETF Last Call!

Den 28=2E o=
ktober 2017 19:47:53 CEST, skrev Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google=2Ecom&=
gt;:


I looked through all of Harald's suggestions and I review=
ed the PRs since then, and it appears to me that most, if not all, of Haral=
d's suggestions have been incorporated into the doc=2E  

Do the two of you agree, or is there something still missing t=
hat we need to do?  

=

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 12:32 PM Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand=2Eno> wrote=
:
Leaving in only the one with =
something left to write=2E=2E=2E



Den 17=2E okt=2E 2017 21:26, skrev Christer Holmberg:

>> I was thinking of something like:

>>

>> The exchange of information MUST result in the following informat=
ion being available to the ICE agent:

>>

>> - Whether the remote peer supports ICE at all

>> - What ICE options, if any, are supported

>> - Whether the remote peer is Lite or Full

>> - Whether the remote peer thinks it's the Initiating Agent or not=


>> - What candidates the remote peer wishes to make available

>> - Whether an ICE restart is desired

> Looks ok, but I am not sure what mean by the 4th, regarding thinking =
it's the initiating agent or not=2E

>

>



The spec says that the initiating agent will take the CONTROLLING role

if both parties are Full ICE implementations, or if both parties are

Lite implementations=2E This means that it has to know that it's the

initiating agent=2E



In cases like Offer/Answer (without glare), it's simple to see which one
is initiating=2E In cases with 3rd party control (both parties get called<=
br />
for setup), chat-line systems (both parties initiate a join) or

protocols where glare is possible, something has to make the decision on
which side has the Initiator role=2E



I'd prefer to abandon the Initiator concept, and say that the exchange

of information should give back the information to each about whether

they should try to take the Controlling role, but that may be a larger

rewrite=2E



_______________________________________________

Ice mailing list

Ice@ietf=2Eorg

https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/ice






-- 

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------T44WE4HWJ5P2D1FWX7O25QPQMTHE2X--


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Peter Thatcher 
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 19:48:03 +0000
Message-ID: 
To: Christer Holmberg 
Cc: "ice@ietf.org" , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , Ben Campbell 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114073269b9828055ca0af8b"
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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We'll give everyone a little more time, until 11/1, which will give them a
week total from when you published the new draft.

If you made comments during the WGLC, please verify that they have been
addressed and you are OK with us requesting publication.  I believe PSA and
Harald have already done so.  I have also reviewed all of the PRs since my
last review, and I'm happy with them (although I found a few minor
spelling/grammar/wording things which I fixed in
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/52/).

Assuming everything is resolved, we'll proceed on 11/1.

Thank you Christer!



On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:54 AM Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,
>
> Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of
> draft-5245bis.
>
> The last change I did, before submission, was the s/media/data change
> requested by Harald. There was no PR for that.
>
> I suggest that the chairs give people a few days to check that their
> comments/issues have been properly implemented (most things have been done
> using PRs).
>
> IF you still find something that you think is broken, or extremely
> unclear, please let me know.
>
> Also, I have added some names to the Acknowledgement section. If you think
> someone is missing, please let me know, and I will add him/her.
>
> After that, I suggest that the chairs do the publication request.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
>
>

--001a114073269b9828055ca0af8b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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We'll give everyone a little more time, until 11/=
1, which will give them a week total from when you published the new draft.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0

If you made comments during the W=
GLC, please verify that they have been addressed and you are OK with us req=
uesting publication.=C2=A0 I believe PSA and Harald have already done so.=
=C2=A0 I have also reviewed all of the PRs since my last review, and I'=
m happy with them (although I found a few minor spelling/grammar/wording th=
ings which I fixed in=C2=A0https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/52/).

Assuming everything is resolved, we'll proceed on 11/1.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0

Thank you Christer!


On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:54 AM Christer =
Holmberg <christer.hol=
mberg@ericsson.com> wrote:







Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,







Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of dr=
aft-5245bis.







The last change I did, before submission, was the s/media/data change =
requested by Harald. There was no PR for that.







I suggest that the chairs give people a few days to check that their c=
omments/issues have been properly implemented (most things have been done u=
sing PRs).







IF you still find something that you think is broken, or extremely unc=
lear, please let me know.







Also, I have added some names to the Acknowledgement section. If you t=
hink someone is missing, please let me know, and I will add him/her.







After that, I suggest that the chairs do the publication request.






Thanks!







Regards,







Christer

















--001a114073269b9828055ca0af8b--


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Cc: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" 
To: Christer Holmberg 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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> On Oct 29, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Christer Holmberg =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> >We'll give everyone a little more time, until 11/1, which will give =
them a week total from when you published the new draft.
> >
> >If you made comments during the WGLC, please verify that they have =
been addressed and you are OK with us requesting publication.  I believe =
PSA and >Harald have already done so.  I have also reviewed all of the =
PRs since my last review, and I'm happy with them (although I found a =
few minor >spelling/grammar/wording things which I fixed in =
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/52/).
> >
> >Assuming everything is resolved, we'll proceed on 11/1.
>=20
> Note that the draft submission window for Singapore closes on Monday =
10/30, but I assume Ben(?) can accept a new version 11/1 (I assume it =
would at least contain the changes based on Peter=E2=80=99s PR).

Yes, I can=E2=80=94but I would suggest publishing a version on 10/30 =
that has everything you know about by then. If you still need another =
revision during the embargo, I will approve the exception, but I=E2=80=99d=
 rather that not be Plan A.

Thanks!

Ben.


>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:54 AM Christer Holmberg =
 wrote:
> Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,
>=20
> Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of =
draft-5245bis.
>=20
> The last change I did, before submission, was the s/media/data change =
requested by Harald. There was no PR for that.
>=20
> I suggest that the chairs give people a few days to check that their =
comments/issues have been properly implemented (most things have been =
done using PRs).
>=20
> IF you still find something that you think is broken, or extremely =
unclear, please let me know.
>=20
> Also, I have added some names to the Acknowledgement section. If you =
think someone is missing, please let me know, and I will add him/her.
>=20
> After that, I suggest that the chairs do the publication request.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer


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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: Ben Campbell 
CC: Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:37:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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From: Peter Saint-Andre 
To: Christer Holmberg ,
 Ben Campbell 
Cc: "ice-chairs@ietf.org" ,
 Peter Thatcher , "ice@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Ice] Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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On 10/29/17 11:37 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> I had a look at Peter's PR. It is very minor, and pure editorial, so if=
 we can agree to not do any other changes I will be able to submit it by =
10/30.
>=20
> I am pretty sure there will be changes based on the gen-art and IESG re=
views, so I really think we should move ahead.

Go for it! :-)





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> On Oct 29, 2017, at 12:37 PM, Christer Holmberg =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I had a look at Peter's PR. It is very minor, and pure editorial, so =
if we can agree to not do any other changes I will be able to submit it =
by 10/30.
>=20
> I am pretty sure there will be changes based on the gen-art and IESG =
reviews, so I really think we should move ahead.

+1 that post-pubreq changes are highly likely. At some point it=E2=80=99s =
reasonable to decide to treat further comments as IETF LC comments.

(On the other hand, new versions are cheap.)

Ben.

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com]
> Sent: 29 October 2017 19:27
> To: Christer Holmberg 
> Cc: Peter Thatcher ; ice@ietf.org; =
ice-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Christer Holmberg =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>>> We'll give everyone a little more time, until 11/1, which will give =
them a week total from when you published the new draft.
>>>=20
>>> If you made comments during the WGLC, please verify that they have =
been addressed and you are OK with us requesting publication.  I believe =
PSA and >Harald have already done so.  I have also reviewed all of the =
PRs since my last review, and I'm happy with them (although I found a =
few minor >spelling/grammar/wording things which I fixed in =
https://github.com/ice-wg/rfc5245bis/pull/52/).
>>>=20
>>> Assuming everything is resolved, we'll proceed on 11/1.
>>=20
>> Note that the draft submission window for Singapore closes on Monday =
10/30, but I assume Ben(?) can accept a new version 11/1 (I assume it =
would at least contain the changes based on Peter=E2=80=99s PR).
>=20
> Yes, I can=E2=80=94but I would suggest publishing a version on 10/30 =
that has everything you know about by then. If you still need another =
revision during the embargo, I will approve the exception, but I=E2=80=99d=
 rather that not be Plan A.
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Ben.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Christer
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 3:54 AM Christer Holmberg =
 wrote:
>> Ladies, Gentlemen and Linux users,
>>=20
>> Based on the WGLC comments, I have submitted a new version (-13) of =
draft-5245bis.
>>=20
>> The last change I did, before submission, was the s/media/data change =
requested by Harald. There was no PR for that.
>>=20
>> I suggest that the chairs give people a few days to check that their =
comments/issues have been properly implemented (most things have been =
done using PRs).
>>=20
>> IF you still find something that you think is broken, or extremely =
unclear, please let me know.
>>=20
>> Also, I have added some names to the Acknowledgement section. If you =
think someone is missing, please let me know, and I will add him/her.
>>=20
>> After that, I suggest that the chairs do the publication request.
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Christer
>=20


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From: Christer Holmberg 
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Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-ice-5245bis-13
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From nobody Mon Oct 30 02:00:48 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal
        Authors         : Ari Keranen
                          Christer Holmberg
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-14.txt
	Pages           : 93
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document describes a protocol for Network Address Translator
   (NAT) traversal for UDP-based communication.  This protocol is called
   Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE).  ICE makes use of the
   Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) protocol and its
   extension, Traversal Using Relay NAT (TURN).

   This document obsoletes RFC 5245.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-14
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-14

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-rfc5245bis-14


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Oct 30 02:04:33 2017
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From: Christer Holmberg 
To: "ice@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-5245bis-14
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--_000_D61CB95C24FB6christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

I have submitted a new version (-14) of 5245bis.

I merged Peter=92s PR, and removed the active/passive check list definition=
.

=85and I think we are ready to go :)

Regards,

Christer

--_000_D61CB95C24FB6christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,







I have submitted a new version (-14) of 5245bis.







I merged Peter=92s PR, and removed the active/passive check list defin=
ition.







=85and I think we are ready to go :)







Regards,







Christer




--_000_D61CB95C24FB6christerholmbergericssoncom_--