From nobody Mon Apr 2 15:14:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DB11241FC; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 15:14:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Rescorla To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, nohlmeier@mozilla.com, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 15:14:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 22:14:40 -0000 Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Comments in context: https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.net/D3650 I'm a listed author on this document, but I haven't worked on it in quite some time, so this is read with mostly fresh eyes. Important comments: agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate unless it is peer reflexive. IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then re-sorting the check list. IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is already running. What is the rationale for this? Other comments: Generation: All of the candidates conveyed within an ICE session (as defined in [rfc5245bis]). Note that "generation" isn't a 5245 term, so this text could be clearer. ICE Description: Any session-related (as opposed to candidate- related) attributes required to configure an ICE agent. These It might be helpful to say "ICE session" to distinguish from session-level attributes in SDP for instance, the encoding for the Session Description Protocol (SDP) [RFC4566] is defined in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip]. Note that this has the side effect of precluding agressive nomination consider the overall session to be under active negotiation as soon as possible.) As noted in Section 3, in application protocols that use SDP the Why is this a benefit, actually? I see why it is in the offer so that you can parallelize the gathering on both sides, but why here? (rather than as a part of the initial ICE description or a response thereto), it is the responsibility of the using protocol to define methods for associating the indication with one or more specific data I see here you say "using protocol" as opposed to "application" o A signaling protocol SHOULD provide a way for parties to advertise and discover support for Trickle ICE before an ICE session begins And here you use "signaling protocol" rather than "using protocl" To achieve this, when trickling candidates, agents MUST respect the order of components as reflected by their component IDs; that is, I'm surprised to see a MUST paired with "While not crucial" From nobody Mon Apr 2 17:15:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3CB12DA24 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 17:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Mon, 02 Apr 2018 17:15:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 18:15:40 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Hjx06BnApKaymI3J5m2343A3j2NDLmNDF" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 00:15:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Hjx06BnApKaymI3J5m2343A3j2NDLmNDF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="7Nwvgd2Cjza26y3rvHPK1Q5VAONW2IEqy"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --7Nwvgd2Cjza26y3rvHPK1Q5VAONW2IEqy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/2/18 4:14 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection Should this be "Recuse"? > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this= > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > Comments in context: https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.net/D3650 >=20 > I'm a listed author on this document, but I haven't worked on it in qui= te > some time, so this is read with mostly fresh eyes. You left early and I joined late. Hopefully we have enough overlap... > Important comments: > agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidat= e > unless it is peer reflexive. >=20 > IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you > follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the > connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. > Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx > candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. This text was in the spec when I joined the author team. I am not sure of the rationale. The only difference with Trickle ICE is handling candidate pairs that come in later. Section 13 notes that it's possible for a server reflexive candidate to be perceived as peer reflexive if the STUN connectivity check arrives before signaling of the trickled candidate, however it also notes that this "does not require any change in processing". See also below. > maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per > [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. >=20 > IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? > This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check would indeed make more sense. > new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then= > re-sorting the check list. > IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is > already running. What is the rationale for this? Good point. This is the same issue with prflx in another guise. I'm not sure of the rationale. The only thing I can come up with is that we're trying to work around the fact that some server reflexive candidates could be perceived initially as peer reflexive. Throwing out the earlier "peer reflexive" candidate in favor of the later candidate (which might be server reflexive) might be a workaround. I'll ask Emil to clarify this for us. > Other comments: >=20 > Generation: All of the candidates conveyed within an ICE session (a= s > defined in [rfc5245bis]). >=20 > Note that "generation" isn't a 5245 term, so this text could be clearer= =2E Let's remove "(as defined in [rfc5245bis])". > ICE Description: Any session-related (as opposed to candidate- > related) attributes required to configure an ICE agent. These >=20 > It might be helpful to say "ICE session" to distinguish from session-le= vel > attributes in SDP Agreed. > for instance, the encoding for the Session Description Protocol (SDP= ) > [RFC4566] is defined in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip]. >=20 > Note that this has the side effect of precluding agressive nomination IIRC that was a feature. Should we call it out? > consider the overall session to be under active negotiation as soon > as possible.) > As noted in Section 3, in application protocols that use SDP the >=20 > Why is this a benefit, actually? I see why it is in the offer so that y= ou can > parallelize the gathering on both sides, but why here? It seems this could help the initiator learn whether the responder supports trickle if no discovery mechanism exist in the using protocol. Although in that case the initiator probably would have sent a full or at least adequate generation of candidates with the offer (half trickle), as mentioned in Section 12 the initiator could trickle more candidates after receiving the response. > (rather than as a part of the initial ICE description or a response > thereto), it is the responsibility of the using protocol to define > methods for associating the indication with one or more specific dat= a >=20 > I see here you say "using protocol" as opposed to "application" 5245bis uses the terms "using protocol" and "ICE usage", which seem preferable (to me an application sounds like a user agent). Will fix throughout. > o A signaling protocol SHOULD provide a way for parties to advertis= e > and discover support for Trickle ICE before an ICE session begins= >=20 > And here you use "signaling protocol" rather than "using protocl" Will change these to "using protocol" too. > To achieve this, when trickling candidates, agents MUST respect the > order of components as reflected by their component IDs; that is, >=20 > I'm surprised to see a MUST paired with "While not crucial" That's been bothering me, too. At the least, I'd change MUST to SHOULD. Peter --7Nwvgd2Cjza26y3rvHPK1Q5VAONW2IEqy-- --Hjx06BnApKaymI3J5m2343A3j2NDLmNDF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlrCx6wACgkQZWGMGH9o FKln8BAAixETZCw9vb2zfwoR6cBXtiIEg9KbMgABOOhK7ney9gbpSq0l7gKVOwUC QrTu4lp7jM0v9SA6+PAXF0BUXwAHw+RsCBs8m5+6tl4Z1EvVZlRYVk+T/qxYLXaI SZAkfClCDe+hyWKuRVuyX35M0bj8J49hf1YiOrm0kZJXdugmjo4fTKYM+7btUv5f 7ZQG/pO547IUaBENhkkDGoVMwC+5sOmPIBpxwdyUzH8lWZ5+jPHnYSalIcjvaJ1q 1iNWyTuXRfK6fusIW9oIe8i8cQqxD/ZWHzbnGE3x3qgU3zFbvrjYPgfQibOHut/K /OrpNE8ZYzPhBK3ECKrdm6InuI7C/+8/T54IZeDtfjDwrZdoYcZGfhDlVrsf7J0X LOzSFdjjCtjsmD35EcACuXy+FC1+2nCsKpezTuGCvrlNdxhNM4JfvPdFB99HKiRx oMIshYSAmjyEo4GBj9iryePwcgkuP3VNrac7dx0vUnZWKCSrbjGsXGEZAoSYnLK7 GoZL0+T4NYWMJBS92cDvWQwTqB6vIe6FyHYQoM3wmqG0LYmMdl+LvcLyTbgZBuGo Nsmt5f9/lzPgbOaePyw5ovRRr4X4boa8AAGzTc4gm01mmow+yaAP3bOY5yMaT/Mj 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ZCBieSB0aGVpciBjb21wb25lbnQgSURzOyB0aGF0IGlzLA0KPiANCj4gSSdtIHN1cnByaXNlZCB0 byBzZWUgYSBNVVNUIHBhaXJlZCB3aXRoICJXaGlsZSBub3QgY3J1Y2lhbCINCg0KVGhhdCdzIGJl ZW4gYm90aGVyaW5nIG1lLCB0b28uIEF0IHRoZSBsZWFzdCwgSSdkIGNoYW5nZSBNVVNUIHRvIFNI T1VMRC4NCg0KUGV0ZXINCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Apr 3 00:40:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9842127275; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 00:40:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Roach To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, nohlmeier@mozilla.com, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152274123290.13967.12162296717595957714.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 00:40:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 07:40:33 -0000 Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I haven't yet reviewed this document, but it is part of the multi-document problem I flag in my DISCUSS on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip, and needs to block on finding a solution to that issue. From nobody Tue Apr 3 03:21:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16D04120726; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 03:21:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, nohlmeier@mozilla.com, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152275090004.14028.12432526304206496576.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 03:21:40 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-ice-trickle-18=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:21:40 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the well written doc! On minor comment on the use of normative language: Section 8: "Also, candidate trickling needs to be correlated to a specific ICE session, so that if there is an ICE restart, any delayed updates for a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the receiving party. " Maybe use normative language here: "Also, candidate trickling MUST be correlated to a specific ICE session, so that if there is an ICE restart, any delayed updates for a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the receiving party. " I assume this is not using normative language because there is a normative requirement in sec 14. However, not using normative language in both cases seems rather confusing to me. Alternatively , I would suggest to add a forward reference. From nobody Tue Apr 3 06:40:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E73126BF7; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=NWLm3PhS; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=noyxX7n0 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FCOKN8sJvthY; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 06:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93D8112025C; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 06:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95FB721196; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 09:39:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=C9pFkRqPj84qKYFfSb3H97MVnTdK3 NtL0hQmdYkiZCU=; b=NWLm3PhSgfFR/xeFKw62iam/CMrzoR6hlROChg5UztRnz 5TYAauBrnkVPu9jvL1Y35tf42KGhdVFBUGW4qRCPkLV8nZy1c41eyGvbLH4UObW1 Vo6GCxD4uG1RIO2crxTce0cBsFEUaFKCNClqy1QsxZPQ/OM/IPbKb8rVc8duXKi+ n9LR6BZZieoRw7EOFj1BLT+vJkKjeFCZNpqMs3jSvjaB2y8Uy57km+UJ73eG04EJ ALrM/T0GI0a9Fqcen3HacLKmqIFkuHuqLgXlTj2uPr11AqWLneMoEQAl7CUwPNZB 6KO/5mBzWhQyVrJUP8mAytWRQDt70caZOr0fj3cxA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=C9pFkR qPj84qKYFfSb3H97MVnTdK3NtL0hQmdYkiZCU=; b=noyxX7n0zPioSgOTh+EPQN mjNNF0cZh6JWxriIcso07ZfJAiEkuTp17zDAmbJ58FFYTpPtlXEbSG31Kj/AG+Kt NyMdvSyrr+oSLs7V/2d+NDZiATax+Y3ocBzH2JBasnFRlsQ5M1PzgiuoPqM3bqoG CqIArPAiFV7J0Ve8A07y4W2fCvdMH82FO+OEMK970zxXDvib0tKkraUaBB8QLBqz h2sFkYT1Gz+qVHmBLY4HpESzr14zDhEEzsyBumDmgz301TfI5Gzsqdb16N1RWbeY G5Z41Whg9q+EUXqQXI0HYJvEJUK2wqbUgB+94Ly5hIl2pbXCWTWZXRTlXOdiuIcQ == X-ME-Sender: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro3.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.78]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1ED8EE5096; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <7485ad71-d2f1-6f93-6a25-0872e38fcc30@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:39:41 -0400 Cc: Roni Even , gen-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ice-trickle.all@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <85323327-E1F3-4A7D-B6F6-1A296488ECAB@cooperw.in> References: <151835365522.17100.3382413286251834508@ietfa.amsl.com> <7485ad71-d2f1-6f93-6a25-0872e38fcc30@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ice-trickle-16 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:39:54 -0000 Roni, thanks for your review. Peter, thanks for your response. I have = entered a Yes ballot. Alissa > On Feb 12, 2018, at 1:39 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 2/11/18 5:54 AM, Roni Even wrote: >> Reviewer: Roni Even >> Review result: Ready with Nits >>=20 >> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area >> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed >> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just >> like any other last call comments. >>=20 >> For more information, please see the FAQ at >>=20 >> . >>=20 >> Document: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-?? >> Reviewer: Roni Even >> Review Date: 2018-02-11 >> IETF LC End Date: 2018-02-22 >> IESG Telechat date: 2018-03-08 >>=20 >> Summary: >> The document is ready for publication as a standard track RFC >> Major issues: >>=20 >> Minor issues: >>=20 >> Nits/editorial comments: >> In appendix B third paragraph "When performing full trickle, a full = ICE >> implementation could conveying the initial ICE description or = response thereto >> ..." change to "convey" >=20 > Noted and fixed under source control: >=20 > = https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/commit/3c86705bd211e1b5bc2c8f7fc199ec2c2= db7595d#diff-f7ced034e08b14404c7832d8f5f19567 >=20 > Thanks for the review! >=20 > Peter >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Tue Apr 3 08:38:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E159112EA24 for ; 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Tue, 03 Apr 2018 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w9-v6sm641911itc.2.2018.04.03.08.38.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 08:38:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:38:32 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="piLcEiqEighP6YIuOOIKQH3X8xEdnIW2R" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:38:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --piLcEiqEighP6YIuOOIKQH3X8xEdnIW2R Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="pdVp3o7iGJcnGRzPV6Gmq3WSF2mDqImL1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> --pdVp3o7iGJcnGRzPV6Gmq3WSF2mDqImL1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/2/18 11:13 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, >=20 > A couple of comments: >=20 >>> agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candid= ate >>> unless it is peer reflexive. >>> >>> IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you= =20 >>> follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the=20 >>> connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? >> >> Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. > ... >>> Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? >>> This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. >> >> Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check w= ould indeed make more sense. >=20 > What if the pruning would result in a pair that e.g., is already in the= Succeeded state to be removed? Is that what you want to do? I don't think so. I'm on a call right now but will reply again. Peter --pdVp3o7iGJcnGRzPV6Gmq3WSF2mDqImL1-- --piLcEiqEighP6YIuOOIKQH3X8xEdnIW2R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlrDn/kACgkQZWGMGH9o FKmq8hAAoKQu3hDPtEynPiYIACgf2g45JB1cDe5c5rj68QTwZpLLf12zZZnJ7C5n FT93jBKZKZRGImt8g9xOvI/7t4X+ttOzADSuTAIoPuZvNLMYNPIn7IEDL3+e+Wy9 O/792L05YZXXInrGHfXewXlnohhsdrsSbKeDMGld8hEofLie+XpRXGsVjGmQWXlO Jud3HVZAmRS/NA97MKa+Z/jJ7A6Pk2TqCJ0yGrY0MEx8SQCuIHWIV5V36UWsqcHP eAddeiPMFW3WAUQgN3yrMS53jT7I7Ozyxk/fNnoe/nRzXAOG9kGihK0YwyaPzU6R Alhuqp1YzqIjYPDIvXCGrMAnEpi93RfBbz3vkjn8itlpp5cvy8XeXkezynnQhPI4 vfJVoN56w5afY/koNtb7BXLMMK9ixxgjvO012bA4Ltc1yL2qL6/EgGbNlClTrGdW Jy6iZMB8JGWKD0c8YEH0LadXOXwDXw6mVv47l351RcMfLKZnsy2twN061RxNsGDi 6FNm4eUU7KHss/U6AHRkFiHfiwVANjLG/0Orx2jqfJ/CvHj0qt9fDhqvGRouwFRy YXLxFZmha/HHmejg+4bniq/amHHP4b3uoS4VpGL5J6tF1CReVpJceC9XdY6XXupc hE08KzNDiILgA+q+6IjlADbBQVh9DlYphHbK0uTCC8Q7GLnC8z8= =4fjU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --piLcEiqEighP6YIuOOIKQH3X8xEdnIW2R-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 09:00:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674C1127909 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152275090004.14028.12432526304206496576.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OAxl8qOt4tzwRbaBcSvxUsFUOE2YgO3qt" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-ice-trickle-18=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 16:00:14 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --OAxl8qOt4tzwRbaBcSvxUsFUOE2YgO3qt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="NrtN2GNZre8iAy3SyuTrAA4b5A6VMqHcE"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org Message-ID: <9fbf619a-389b-6305-e628-800d8e094c6b@mozilla.com> Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind's_No_Objection_on_draft-ietf-ice?= =?UTF-8?Q?-trickle-18:_=28with_COMMENT=29?= References: <152275090004.14028.12432526304206496576.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <152275090004.14028.12432526304206496576.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --NrtN2GNZre8iAy3SyuTrAA4b5A6VMqHcE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/3/18 4:21 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote: > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this= > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Thanks for the well written doc! On minor comment on the use of normati= ve > language: >=20 > Section 8: "Also, candidate trickling needs to be correlated to a speci= fic ICE > session, so that if there is an ICE restart, any delayed updates for= > a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the > receiving party. " > Maybe use normative language here: "Also, candidate trickling MUST be > correlated to a specific ICE > session, so that if there is an ICE restart, any delayed updates for= > a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the > receiving party. " > I assume this is not using normative language because there is a normat= ive > requirement in sec 14. However, not using normative language in both ca= ses > seems rather confusing to me. Alternatively , I would suggest to add a = forward > reference. Good catch. I suggest: Also, the using protocol MUST ensure that each trickled candidate is associated with a specific ICE session, so that if there is an ICE restart any delayed updates for a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the receiving party (see Section 10). I also suggest that we move the following sentence from Section 8.2 ("Announcing End of Candidates") to Section 10 ("Receiving an End-Of-Candidates Indication") because it's out of place where it is now:= After an agent has received an end-of-candidates indication, it MUST also ignore any newly received candidates for that data stream or data session. Peter --NrtN2GNZre8iAy3SyuTrAA4b5A6VMqHcE-- --OAxl8qOt4tzwRbaBcSvxUsFUOE2YgO3qt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlrDpQcACgkQZWGMGH9o FKlOAxAA7hf9OJihILat3xitIWXLg9JTcvrPJuqY1hl4zBQnRdg9fwlgnzcM9uZ0 rwSEmUcLkzz/VjDUvmHkdPlxj/UdfnwynpGKBfeghaVTuP6F3kF/w3Us5/0T7ReN RNQZ2ACRYhWzZK74WP6akHTsn0+nqSrBR5FGfySA27eJY4KfPV9C3y59Ut9W1Q9d Ab4jWtkB99b9BLK6FN9TsOrL02WP4EUR/xDE/4WdIE5ax16BEuuLCbP5D1Zt4ei6 ghz907rLZ/iVG+KS1kXzPzF+xI5/2H9ck9BFZx5TeGwq+yC9jhaP/HRGVDaqDBru V4LtK4PTaB5n4Y99rcGsBx0CUKy8R3t6821iBFklOSVR6mc1V2WBrRiUo2ZcVYIw rbSbeuVuMiIfi0L9p8EDp2NWzsMuavSU2MsVOcZKciRK8Gcr8jM/kf9CgRrrqoOU u9ATvLKAGHmf+xYJJkEltR10lFDfsCHeS2IXnJwYjyU0QxichNNXIzUbRFsc8lpI 8O2vT/kLJ21CdBDJQSiV3yygXnCSpKW4WkHUIa8Zyak4MhDBVz1iZ7Jjj94VnTFe panYPZVdlBmuD0v5kkf67CMaoD/j04O2Ye5yA+NrnxPxku4fK++TbchY+EgxL2HT XMdaRCkMoPe5I1kpZtcY0Ju4btlOq/bj9e24xozm0BTn8Tra0h8= =v0rI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OAxl8qOt4tzwRbaBcSvxUsFUOE2YgO3qt-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 09:22:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909A012AAB6 for ; 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Tue, 03 Apr 2018 09:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a46-v6sm640573itj.1.2018.04.03.09.22.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 09:22:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Adam Roach , The IESG Cc: fandreas@cisco.com, mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:22:39 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DisIHne6WLUo46VsbP3d4kdsRSDnAQe7B" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 16:22:47 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --DisIHne6WLUo46VsbP3d4kdsRSDnAQe7B Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="zxolWByxpD9xuzxoLYSs9Ma01HhOq3Xi4"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Adam Roach , The IESG Cc: fandreas@cisco.com, mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --zxolWByxpD9xuzxoLYSs9Ma01HhOq3Xi4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + ICE WG to address the cross-document DISCUSS only. On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se as= much > as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle = (Trickle > ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and draft-ietf-rtcweb-js= ep > (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the ov= erall > result of how they're currently structured. >=20 > JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" SD= P attribute > as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point i= n time. > Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from th= ere > into this document. >=20 > There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >=20 > 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the Trickl= e ICE > draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any normative= SDP > behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use SDP = at all. >=20 > 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant f= rom the > perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general (for = both > SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax into= a > single document that is already necessary to reference from any docu= ment > that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't presen= tly > discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat awkwar= d > section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, the = syntax > for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >=20 > 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the > "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is extremely= > SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and RFC = 3264 > behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to normati= vely > depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax defi= nition > seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >=20 > I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 and= #3. > However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points to= a > document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under i= t -- is > clearly wrong. IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" definitio= n can be found there? Peter --zxolWByxpD9xuzxoLYSs9Ma01HhOq3Xi4-- --DisIHne6WLUo46VsbP3d4kdsRSDnAQe7B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlrDqk8ACgkQZWGMGH9o FKk5ng//SqMYOxzzFS9mN6QNykgWaa8EThSDwcU0y2uw1yxZL37qSVMOBjvntrBf mfkIGhNo2c0CLSyfCKY2CaoVopL8TauMeQkRNH4xKxmQheWhsIZWpaRfVeMJVWxA kOC/PjtQCmuP+x7GnB5b6rH+oFefWiMUVsCfZRmS9d0hmSAfi1eDKqkAi3jYsmAt 71DfSSs/0Vwj+HXPIxp4l8yUnCY66tGjL6FT/6w+Com2RxBXjb7Tarl2Mo5dUPmX 2CsrwKBFwnuSs0eCIaTQSnghPW5J3rYQj3vHeXEGmBHKUD2ykGO2NMsQcHG6PDZK qLvomBdChNp4sDXAd65YYcBbWgIYsgl1Qe/Up/wg+7vu7CeFZEjV8/epAeLdVw9I 2kk3w7kX/O+oEiUvzEyZSyk4cTpAPalmhxrE5lhxpfOmnUvNccsmeHlvul25PsK4 TX3aGpnSrlZTxTINGo41njyOAjJT54ADrdfbrfLdabU1SPT0osOwseX4b6fyoBMO Hseg6BwoYtFJpf/64r3g20bzpE4scmXj8y+Vl2YZ8JdNE42hlV2trjO/BsthkpxM 5Lfy5H8Glru9YOxMoulxnrDEdqkWDlv2Wow3Q+DhPQHjX8WsbFz4Ycn9hZp1ATFw hTelQjdwzgzAQ19uSEpTlXflr8w2zqDydTOd7tgdQaIO/AUlMVs= =iujG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DisIHne6WLUo46VsbP3d4kdsRSDnAQe7B-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 09:55:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B211F12D7E6; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:55:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GqOvQfQcemku; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5A65126BFD; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 09:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33GtSH6081558 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:55:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BACB3D2F-C7CB-497A-A9F9-30DEF0AE0003"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:55:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Adam Roach , The IESG , Flemming Andreasen , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 16:55:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BACB3D2F-C7CB-497A-A9F9-30DEF0AE0003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > + ICE WG to address the cross-document DISCUSS only. >=20 > On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > >=20 >> The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se = as much >> as it does the interaction among this document, = draft-ietf-ice-trickle (Trickle >> ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep >> (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the = overall >> result of how they're currently structured. >>=20 >> JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" = SDP attribute >> as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point = in time. >> Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from = there >> into this document. >>=20 >> There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >>=20 >> 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the = Trickle ICE >> draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any = normative SDP >> behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use SDP = at all. >>=20 >> 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant = from the >> perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general (for = both >> SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax = into a >> single document that is already necessary to reference from any = document >> that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't = presently >> discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat = awkward >> section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, the = syntax >> for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >>=20 >> 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the >> "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is = extremely >> SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and RFC = 3264 >> behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to = normatively >> depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax = definition >> seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >>=20 >> I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 = and #3. >> However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points = to a >> document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under = it -- is >> clearly wrong. >=20 > IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references > from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in > draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of > document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" = definition > can be found there? I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99s. I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly = reverses that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which = case 3 requires the least amount of structural change. If there was an = option that required no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with = the RFC editor), but IIUC, none of the choices allow for that. Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_BACB3D2F-C7CB-497A-A9F9-30DEF0AE0003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrDsf8ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A24fQ//QXFkHY/yNQJeiQnjRF08h68nsx8U8GLBZ1621BkphIGCCtN7zM9FHzai dGj0jSyLCYGzhI3AJSOGCcc38BIQCYsbvIV1aTFzpH57Sa7rEMQHYqH4Ey0PaupW lHIgclGXgy75RpgU5Zgrwv6VYioASHc1sWo2sNfoihNPukDdFdvbhJJYSux1GJ2p LUcaebFUqLi6wRQ9ovgfoMmjFqrdG0HNQSAvTPBpksvLFle7kQPy3I9t3u/3/fGm RMzinNHcaTnjfO1yx2D339TcxyLgJNWBqJuQT+6GWF2vkLqq36MMSvYaZ2I7FglC m3XTAJQJ2IHR7tsrz/lvdwYpVxmj5mgvqVD5hQo7yhzBnKaKDXbjW6th9a6souMt ZB1q0vIjAGVTLqFwtGB+Pdqctn/M95F6Z3hT93TbNHak1b9VohMDLQ4dxf/PxY6c Uay0IOxtxUd//1X28d9ffu7GFn/v3TMO9nt6yWxrJwZAWUr54EMboMHEmh8iN8y2 OkmM2HMyYc0+ej3wfphHNecuVtntWhe0uoZlj3tzauzKyBE5kx9PZfX4qhTopKod o6s30LHjWFR3H7SN8GRL1i+VQncMLSbDhcjkXYZ+WJNf5n/Pzr934OjX6iVmTGPG xuuhHgG0hnM3vLKhjXf6A5bAHHY2wNVG4v8wJ0KGNip9rIZGi8M= =LMu0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BACB3D2F-C7CB-497A-A9F9-30DEF0AE0003-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 10:24:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BA912D7E8; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtkOJ9MPvr4j; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A17D124239; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33HONFv086318 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:24:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Ben Campbell , Peter Saint-Andre Cc: The IESG , Flemming Andreasen , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:24:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:24:30 -0000 +rtcweb. This is a three-WG situation, and I suspect rtcweb participants have an opinion on the topic. /a On 4/3/18 11:55 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >> + ICE WG to address the cross-document DISCUSS only. >> >> On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >> >> >> >>> The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se as much >>> as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle (Trickle >>> ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep >>> (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the overall >>> result of how they're currently structured. >>> >>> JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=end-of-candidates" SDP attribute >>> as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point in time. >>> Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from there >>> into this document. >>> >>> There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >>> >>> 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=end-of-candidates" back into the Trickle ICE >>> draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any normative SDP >>> behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use SDP at all. >>> >>> 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant from the >>> perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general (for both >>> SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax into a >>> single document that is already necessary to reference from any document >>> that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't presently >>> discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat awkward >>> section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, the syntax >>> for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >>> >>> 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the >>> "a=end-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is extremely >>> SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and RFC 3264 >>> behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to normatively >>> depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax definition >>> seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >>> >>> I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 and #3. >>> However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points to a >>> document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under it -- is >>> clearly wrong. >> IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references >> from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in >> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of >> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=end-of-candidates" definition >> can be found there? > I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter’s. > > I see Adam’s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly reverses that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 requires the least amount of structural change. If there was an option that required no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC editor), but IIUC, none of the choices allow for that. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:53:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C3512D7E5 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:27:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uSaJzSN_Skqk for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CA5E12D7E4 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x230.google.com with SMTP id x9-v6so16695811oig.7 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:27:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G1O9nTQ4sadQaByb4/ey+xHWYMSBZAQ4eH3tlOAnrgU=; b=zxs+IRIGNShwuDXo/bhCiGPdCmXx411cc0biRt0in8w7mnyF3fpiJ+TnwIq29vHZsD 1EaJ8/7ZOdklB4inz5V4lMx+1Jyrqi7r6jRJzAgzTKtJbHm1uN2iLbO7CZsgIEeybvrs 8BSWYB27KdMHim4ZBEK/RMcOYrtyVXC1GqAifCn0CMdSONFFhZZLkWpnSA1VqOngdjvU 93/hNnAqdJV4498cWuerD3kFutuA7cWM8lkJZ9M/U3xw9ClBHnWTGVJIcbkZet+v8tfq 5BU78D0M1zCQuCCEYBcLHf34AMMJV7bwT+FrvSGpbfanLxA6aDUba8rMiuvQd6GwOz2Q EyJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G1O9nTQ4sadQaByb4/ey+xHWYMSBZAQ4eH3tlOAnrgU=; b=k5fHrymGhq9sDQjPcwq76JyFdAgradJLf4RAMju1gnjJmUs78fxn7JLaVRxN+dCdQt mesjZEWXZLl4ozUvxlZd4RfbMp/+UApaQmhl2PoCLCUYACxMpfE8PWYVXMp7iMUNkauz krpnRnCOkYFDP+z9KHAnwRQ1G/h7NpxPiq0Yd0Vz05XlVmwu2SzTYKLd9124+3Qjoahh 4VBlf2+gXsVK7ONae1uayN2puMBZD338H9HA2LwS3Z/nEW3FbEBIdX5/EJunmpL414Y8 Ng9DwFTEGIY+MH1oO8ZHEYpwD5gF6ajeoyViYiiaVjE5bdtolEw81fJA9mSdcgQFIcp8 qSeA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCMTRCPuJMvsbRZh0YfYOXymlvayMCaqvTI4Z5k5an5lNiltHFW 8s3Z8sN0WacV25bhpUZnI++CfAM/JHKiLM8GUUP2+w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+Un7e+7Va9JzAIHX1EWkvd2b/zoro/1EhceaibBYa5mpKhI4NxSnwz0Rrda1ry9rYHma+vRckImraVLyuRE4Y= X-Received: by 2002:aca:cc53:: with SMTP id c80-v6mr8207674oig.174.1522776439907; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:27:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.138.18.130 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:26:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:26:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Ben Campbell , Peter Saint-Andre , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, mmusic WG , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c601cc0568f504b6" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:27:24 -0000 --000000000000c601cc0568f504b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > +rtcweb. This is a three-WG situation, and I suspect rtcweb participants > have an opinion on the topic. > > /a > > > On 4/3/18 11:55 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >>> wrote: >>> >>> + ICE WG to address the cross-document DISCUSS only. >>> >>> On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se as >>>> much >>>> as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle >>>> (Trickle >>>> ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep >>>> (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the >>>> overall >>>> result of how they're currently structured. >>>> >>>> JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" S= DP >>>> attribute >>>> as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point >>>> in time. >>>> Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from >>>> there >>>> into this document. >>>> >>>> There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >>>> >>>> 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the Trick= le >>>> ICE >>>> draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any normativ= e >>>> SDP >>>> behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use SDP >>>> at all. >>>> >>>> 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant >>>> from the >>>> perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general (for >>>> both >>>> SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax int= o >>>> a >>>> single document that is already necessary to reference from any >>>> document >>>> that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't >>>> presently >>>> discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat awkwa= rd >>>> section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, the >>>> syntax >>>> for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >>>> >>>> 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the >>>> "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is extremel= y >>>> SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and RFC >>>> 3264 >>>> behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to >>>> normatively >>>> depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax >>>> definition >>>> seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >>>> >>>> I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 an= d >>>> #3. >>>> However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points t= o >>>> a >>>> document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under >>>> it -- is >>>> clearly wrong. >>>> >>> IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references >>> from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of >>> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" definit= ion >>> can be found there? >>> >> I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99s= . >> >> I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly rever= ses that >> consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 requires >> the least amount of structural change. If there was an option that requi= red >> no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC editor), but >> IIUC, none of the choices allow for that. >> > I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. -Ekr >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> > --000000000000c601cc0568f504b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
+rtcweb. This is a three-WG = situation, and I suspect rtcweb participants have an opinion on the topic.<= span class=3D"HOEnZb">

/a


On 4/3/18 11:55 AM, Ben Campbell wrote:

On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:22 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

+ ICE WG to address the cross-document DISCUSS only.

On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote:

<snip/>

The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se as= much
as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle (Tri= ckle
ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the ov= erall
result of how they're currently structured.

JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates&qu= ot; SDP attribute
as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point in ti= me.
Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from th= ere
into this document.

There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks:

1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the = Trickle ICE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any nor= mative SDP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn'= t use SDP at all.

2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant from = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general= (for both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP synta= x into a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0single document that is already necessary to reference from an= y document
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn= 9;t presently
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat = awkward
=C2=A0 =C2=A0section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] wit= h SDP, the syntax
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the end-of-candidate marker is..."

3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This docum= ent is extremely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax an= d RFC 3264
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior, independent of any SIP semantics.=C2=A0 Forcing JSEP= to normatively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute synta= x definition
=C2=A0 =C2=A0seems to be letting the tail wag the dog.

I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 and= #3.
However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points to a document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under it --= is
clearly wrong.
IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references
from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in
draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of<= br> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" d= efinition
can be found there?
I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99s.
I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly reverses= that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 requi= res the least amount of structural change. If there was an option that requ= ired no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC editor), b= ut IIUC, none of the choices allow for that.

I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JS= EP has no other dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awk= ward, lets do #2.

-Ekr


Thanks!

Ben.



--000000000000c601cc0568f504b6-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:53:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E489F12D7E8; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:35:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SB27yzaLq0yu; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0611012D7E5; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33HZrU7088315 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:35:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B408C13E-FC4A-41CD-9814-E8C43E6D6732"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:35:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , Peter Saint-Andre , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org To: Eric Rescorla References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:35:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B408C13E-FC4A-41CD-9814-E8C43E6D6732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies = on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. >=20 I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for = readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less = effort.). If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate = trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99s= the past of most effort. But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer to = WG consensus. Ben. --Apple-Mail=_B408C13E-FC4A-41CD-9814-E8C43E6D6732 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrDu3gACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0c4A/+Jje2dM1gnZrawy5A+JrKVqHwZ2oDQT59NU6u8B1tjSbB9Dg4DSMvJq9V bEFfzf68UqQBbtT82qdxtYsrCnYLqHmwfP6NxDBhIyRPCYaumoXEAnHdRuV4iWCL oYpnqmRpxWa1S7odvvF5bsoo3DCsePedxvMGI/Y88xp7QA2nX1ULu5HZhZ6GxHR2 KoAZAqbX+sB3Te4pOh3FG8HVH79D4KLkkFca+nSPQTJiK1r4SY1bbA4VcYeOmvCa 1/3+b9Hrk6FZTXxj3cs8EEAHNI0KzC4up64QmkuGU9leu6DvOiR2rZx0AOzoIEHs RnziWWWVvYBIn084KmsvxyzPmG/fYJcnrHyggct1r6U8Dl+ZJPbKn/TLT8LDDJU1 kUW/RZYaRONiKWnZU/zUOfNY+y1x+XhEvUAsxxcFyr8eLXE9Pqndu/JaQQDm/CGQ dM95sWz5WcB6x5GraMz3YAVzWqPpE0lG79uD41PrL/AR7ZR+WeKCYnobgNEBTGks xoZh55nYIwz5uq1YVacdJpcnb9n4pL6mem1htbn5wIqzKtCaE68h9ERGqK8IEddw pJfH5tPm/qCiL/KAz01Uoe/unLMp1bpdKKnl198HB9wAb3gtkbVgRayTlwY36/3O Dr8kp3XxNjBujE5H7hG8hgroQGpQWmy/srGjk700e741p88seoQ= =vtUO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B408C13E-FC4A-41CD-9814-E8C43E6D6732-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:53:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1668012EB1A for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:38:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G98CAvxH1kUR for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22a.google.com (mail-pl0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A0712EAD0 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v18-v6so7848994ply.12 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:38:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=r0jnHAg/mfl7AF7pE4yFS9tRKui789opIZmUZylMp2Q=; b=ogI3rVhbqRR7FEOXvkLHM+rIBXcIPAxI7EKOkCEQLGoJDwn9Cn05OyoVVgAWcN/p16 x5R5AsxXiTKnKltb1EmkNPzZm5yZ9iwVKNQekdScg+Yey9nEeDqxtYNtT0MoFquFinK1 7sCIw+YBnna2SRKbfnGkB4HXzNsHIkhPWDFNB+iK1tdGIiR8MALjjSjkTd53I4gZRU5J 0xP+d+bYBkgXjQF3lBwncilbjRlFHrCm+e+V8bzW5mN9e5y7Ksu0hGYWq7nFXiCYZEor Iijz3TJnoNbm+k/+wFxPAtjZfchogwpvqRpmhElxHbeJY5bkF3dq1U+DXxh4j9sXOoJh /qpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r0jnHAg/mfl7AF7pE4yFS9tRKui789opIZmUZylMp2Q=; b=b9r/f4k8K7fiXRjwvYY6LLuZEHQ8kEyDR2bDPpepPyTxk5Kj5Is5xVq+eR2jVSCfsj 7nyEJ4EI19sgQro4IZAGPYglRtlq1Xo9C6xZr5sk8QTrSF0iddaiBNY2WNlcy3uQSgQ/ VzrgL8jLl24mTypVh4hihyqwMtkuHfBaV9JxgNrgjVbDGd+mFvU/SY0OKtL4IgvF19D5 Bo4zhGnwT8/+mwArw+GzgNV6SrWt237c+cFDN6+sxP1Z4/rxgaRm0BIxFAT71270idoN SkScmQ7AYyeTyi1v8rHUZXZ+KvuRnU+cxDlzjGSlG1pdUzGcnNaf3N5Aio2Uxwm684io oLJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7H283hVOvi7tpK83MBc6a0scaCwe7zGm9wzhlMrr7CchM2Eb7PE eT0A9zC+spM8lNs1WqLhym8/WA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx498FnUeZ4XCg7hdEq1PKhaP+zWG4f44HZsYgATHlLFb7En1FHOmZPAj1xsTUPVyfJrKQx53QQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:566:: with SMTP id 93-v6mr14653900plf.327.1522777122694; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-f54.google.com (mail-pl0-f54.google.com. [209.85.160.54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f86sm6183078pfk.153.2018.04.03.10.38.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-f54.google.com with SMTP id b6-v6so7846326pla.11; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:38:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8d84:: with SMTP id v4-v6mr14819021plo.215.1522777121234; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:38:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.182.102 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:38:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:38:39 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Adam Roach , Ben Campbell , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000062241f0568f52d24" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:38:55 -0000 --00000000000062241f0568f52d24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > >> On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se a= s >>>>> much >>>>> as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickl= e >>>>> (Trickle >>>>> ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep >>>>> (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the >>>>> overall >>>>> result of how they're currently structured. >>>>> >>>>> JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" = SDP >>>>> attribute >>>>> as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point >>>>> in time. >>>>> Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from >>>>> there >>>>> into this document. >>>>> >>>>> There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the Tric= kle >>>>> ICE >>>>> draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any >>>>> normative SDP >>>>> behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use SD= P >>>>> at all. >>>>> >>>>> 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant >>>>> from the >>>>> perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general (fo= r >>>>> both >>>>> SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax >>>>> into a >>>>> single document that is already necessary to reference from any >>>>> document >>>>> that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't >>>>> presently >>>>> discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat >>>>> awkward >>>>> section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, th= e >>>>> syntax >>>>> for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >>>>> >>>>> 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the >>>>> "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is extreme= ly >>>>> SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and RF= C >>>>> 3264 >>>>> behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to >>>>> normatively >>>>> depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax >>>>> definition >>>>> seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >>>>> >>>>> I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 >>>>> and #3. >>>>> However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points >>>>> to a >>>>> document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under >>>>> it -- is >>>>> clearly wrong. >>>>> >>>> IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references >>>> from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in >>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of >>>> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" defini= tion >>>> can be found there? >>>> >>> I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99= s. >>> >>> I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly reve= rses that >>> consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 require= s >>> the least amount of structural change. If there was an option that requ= ired >>> no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC editor), bu= t >>> IIUC, none of the choices allow for that. >>> >> > I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on > SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. > > Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes from draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=3D0.0.0.0 in offer= s, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As it stands, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --00000000000062241f0568f52d24 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla= <ek= r@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach <adam@nostru= m.com> wrote:
On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, = Adam Roach wrote:

<snip/>

The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se as= much
as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle (Tri= ckle
ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the ov= erall
result of how they're currently structured.

JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates&qu= ot; SDP attribute
as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point in ti= me.
Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from th= ere
into this document.

There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks:

1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the = Trickle ICE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any nor= mative SDP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn'= t use SDP at all.

2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant from = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general= (for both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP synta= x into a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0single document that is already necessary to reference from an= y document
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn= 9;t presently
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat = awkward
=C2=A0 =C2=A0section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] wit= h SDP, the syntax
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the end-of-candidate marker is..."

3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This docum= ent is extremely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax an= d RFC 3264
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior, independent of any SIP semantics.=C2=A0 Forcing JSEP= to normatively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute synta= x definition
=C2=A0 =C2=A0seems to be letting the tail wag the dog.

I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 and= #3.
However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points to a document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under it --= is
clearly wrong.
IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references
from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in
draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of<= br> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" d= efinition
can be found there?
I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99s.
I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly reverses= that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 requi= res the least amount of structural change. If there was an option that requ= ired no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC editor), b= ut IIUC, none of the choices allow for that.

I don't think #3 is acceptab= le. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are= equally awkward, lets do #2.


Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific= SDP related changes from =C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-= ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp?

It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c= =3D0.0.0.0 in offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch= rules. As it stands,=C2=A0 draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip=C2=A0cha= nges how=C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp=C2=A0works when trickle ICE is used.

=
Regards,
<= div class=3D"gmail_signature">_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
--00000000000062241f0568f52d24-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F4112E88F for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxDFs1bo5oHk for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x22e.google.com (mail-ot0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEFA412D7E5 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id i28-v6so20327801otf.8 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tE9HlUbly+CiDnlEaCOYfi08zdkA8PkOcCK6gnWiEmI=; b=pISTsTrVmvTrgfo+xknkhFWxX5XOslVKnF6G0lTMhKqkX7fgyWlpCTjXPmHiK0Oz0O Ob/7J7ZghHJKdwQclILRit1DUU2MQuTGXMxvcQUts+7+3we69onY8sRgkSuIREqZk4OW AfeiFRHX36oRVXS1YkxxwL6ChCLDHfnQfpup1ozRyLzKP+6MHnRSkEuCmXpm18A4wgGh EFsemtdJ7xB5WSxFf16nyez4u5e7882l3zZFcFkHZxr2t5L7zLHw8BNjDH0e7HD1/zcN QOBlI24t2Hrv2Z4dF0HiQ3WpoewufPbfDCafLb+2PWC814lTEdkuDnn7lcfEEEmf8gAj tjpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tE9HlUbly+CiDnlEaCOYfi08zdkA8PkOcCK6gnWiEmI=; b=qjBpSOS0SUoDcSi/Ahyr03MyKgyOiGfFpyT9yfQfBlv550fexQLxVaVmY9Ntz60L6g yQjP3TL7xiiSURnVfYVMuOMJkOF3xkLCc3Pdt3sChWf3PzFizM3q7jMjlu6055Rtkyqb I5S3bvKWuMNqT0FmvlNxK+0WQa6MYJikA1QoSRQeSbIhblT1bzFM0cwcu8DcdJW6Qd5r 5dCog+iFB8Hsgeucd5VIbBbbp8JM7xOP2ttkpBy84YBlAyVFXv3Zk8NgHFD/OfEru3dh ldrkPO5bHmjWNwrSXbMa9XZm9vUdjT21lHB+5LVJgOFxQ5bUxuHyyMA6kI8+ApQ4lM7i xxTw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAyCAQd92uk5nrPbP6vZrQLLrSF/+wdqIkljCbJa3yA1qsxGg2n rIRN4a3Gz9gxFfDzXnq4gqyaqfd9Mc7Y4xbj/py7Zw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49170UyZZP306Vxy3u3NlPB1qF1gIJiVcfDff6NEc4zyRumGbc327wYOdU7nr5O5rwnXezRuletSRAR/cUskcg= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4289:: with SMTP id r9-v6mr9192797ote.44.1522777422318; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.138.18.130 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: Adam Roach , Ben Campbell , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005467310568f53f55" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:43:46 -0000 --0000000000005467310568f53f55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Roman Shpount wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >> >>> On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se >>>>>> as much >>>>>> as it does the interaction among this document, >>>>>> draft-ietf-ice-trickle (Trickle >>>>>> ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and >>>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep >>>>>> (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the >>>>>> overall >>>>>> result of how they're currently structured. >>>>>> >>>>>> JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" >>>>>> SDP attribute >>>>>> as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one poin= t >>>>>> in time. >>>>>> Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from >>>>>> there >>>>>> into this document. >>>>>> >>>>>> There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the >>>>>> Trickle ICE >>>>>> draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any >>>>>> normative SDP >>>>>> behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use >>>>>> SDP at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegan= t >>>>>> from the >>>>>> perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general >>>>>> (for both >>>>>> SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax >>>>>> into a >>>>>> single document that is already necessary to reference from any >>>>>> document >>>>>> that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't >>>>>> presently >>>>>> discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat >>>>>> awkward >>>>>> section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, >>>>>> the syntax >>>>>> for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the >>>>>> "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is extrem= ely >>>>>> SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and >>>>>> RFC 3264 >>>>>> behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to >>>>>> normatively >>>>>> depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax >>>>>> definition >>>>>> seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 >>>>>> and #3. >>>>>> However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points >>>>>> to a >>>>>> document from which the text is cites has been removed out from unde= r >>>>>> it -- is >>>>>> clearly wrong. >>>>>> >>>>> IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references >>>>> from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in >>>>> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of >>>>> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" >>>>> definition >>>>> can be found there? >>>>> >>>> I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80= =99s. >>>> >>>> I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly rev= erses >>>> that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 >>>> requires the least amount of structural change. If there was an option= that >>>> required no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC >>>> editor), but IIUC, none of the choices allow for that. >>>> >>> >> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on >> SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. >> >> > Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes > from draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? > > It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=3D0.0.0.0 in > offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As i= t > stands, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how > draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used. > I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the normative dependency from JSEP to SIP -Ekr > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > --0000000000005467310568f53f55 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com&= gt; wrote:



On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM= , Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>= wrote:
On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote= :

<snip/>

The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se as= much
as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle (Tri= ckle
ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the ov= erall
result of how they're currently structured.

JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates&qu= ot; SDP attribute
as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point in ti= me.
Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from th= ere
into this document.

There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks:

1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the = Trickle ICE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any nor= mative SDP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn'= t use SDP at all.

2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant from = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general= (for both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP synta= x into a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0single document that is already necessary to reference from an= y document
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn= 9;t presently
=C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat = awkward
=C2=A0 =C2=A0section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] wit= h SDP, the syntax
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the end-of-candidate marker is..."

3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This docum= ent is extremely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax an= d RFC 3264
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior, independent of any SIP semantics.=C2=A0 Forcing JSEP= to normatively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute synta= x definition
=C2=A0 =C2=A0seems to be letting the tail wag the dog.

I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 and= #3.
However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points to a document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under it --= is
clearly wrong.
IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references
from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in
draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of<= br> document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" d= efinition
can be found there?
I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99s.
I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly reverses= that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which case 3 requi= res the least amount of structural change. If there was an option that requ= ired no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with the RFC editor), b= ut IIUC, none of the choices allow for that.

I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies= on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2.
<= div>

Do = you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes from = =C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-s= dp?

It= is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=3D0.0.0.0 in offers,= SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As it stands,= =C2=A0 draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip=C2= =A0changes how=C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp=C2=A0works when trickle ICE is used.

I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the n= ormative dependency from JSEP to SIP

-Ekr


Regards,
<= div class=3D"m_3143575829003259321gmail_signature">_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0

--0000000000005467310568f53f55-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB16912EAEE for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:44:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t3GEFQfiSE76 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x231.google.com (mail-ot0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6368D12EAD5 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x231.google.com with SMTP id j8-v6so12788146ota.7 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TUjegsqoiwL3SLwaBbImu0Oi+scGVMqqQEs2rJdTsW0=; b=EescMfCDFtKo7INuYz4kThZWiNlkpsgG1yWyu7bYc47vJmnCiadY4UaIN7vyHwtc3n NzyvCktJ9HiAeV8ynw7CoN3LYotumnMVXYu0BKbnJ05ImRR+Ho6EC3BwJAZoy1a7Eoqc 5OGMW6iFgVF25Dhh25rn+iaSLiesPaAgjLC5bmSlu+VZ2kHDjfGMTJagXyrb1MIFG06R Vf5F/isYQlJVV1sH1+VPLz87nIlTQn1TO1ehNWn4WlYh6qdk4UzHC/emLK4qDOeFbbKw rSNpZT09krJLijoLK8keha/713KuSEOP6F8M3wxjEoBuhg7Leqsled8tyeLw7eOjmPJy B5Lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TUjegsqoiwL3SLwaBbImu0Oi+scGVMqqQEs2rJdTsW0=; b=ZiMl0yXqVmKVuNKeUPuDaHsUyEGQljj4mW6owkSWq62s9Woa6G+pKEXikIfpGaxWRu wtZPw6tLLGkp9td9q6Tu1xh0Kqee4sd9aeI7/+v/yNiWeKfa6y0vsplYjrfUPwbS/2Z7 3uG79BKf/E+uNrG1d1/ocWuPd4NcX6tnd7bk3UVfEuLASi5mrKzOpON8NYhvNA7fDrf2 K+R0W7Eb5+AHenHpsvWG1nt36k0GxNxskXDW2GghtOzJQKGdd0RmY8iQtK+ul5OBNtRE jZO+OnDsBvpW2DBPQ5SS9ak6zs6mTPxpo0bOPE9rJ9huD6qEAFR+DgfCS9NtOJg5WIht 1SxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDDP/l7rwocptIPGo5sLa8b0/FpMPCgOO6eNXAf1oTJulIHpEYS rrk9U4Jnj0Xr9ugoPoYiJ+2rsXSWTUglmH/dk+xUkg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx486VRFRKB5/jYqC7qll4imVq7HhQTlnE/gquSaL6erpJArF2wfg5g9vLnhKhixWUN2QcdjCOjQfGM9MWLxMvsA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2a09:: with SMTP id t9-v6mr347200ota.392.1522777478799; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 10:44:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.138.18.130 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:43:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , Peter Saint-Andre , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b2373e0568f54261" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:44:43 -0000 --000000000000b2373e0568f54261 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on > SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. > > > > I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for > readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less > effort.). > > If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate > trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99= s the past > of most effort. > > But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer to W= G > consensus. > Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved document= . -Ekr > Ben. > --000000000000b2373e0568f54261 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:


> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependenci= es on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2.
>

I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for= readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less ef= fort.).

If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate trickle-= ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99s the past= of most effort.

But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer to WG = consensus.

Which WG? As I understand it= , this would require a change to JSEP, which would also require WG consensu= s, plus a change to an IESG-approved document.

-Ek= r


Ben.

--000000000000b2373e0568f54261-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B69812D7F8; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4yXcPuXF7gTa; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC4D21243F6; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33HmQar090499 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:48:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Roman Shpount , Eric Rescorla Cc: Ben Campbell , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:48:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6539FF7135EF8D048AB08991" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:48:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6539FF7135EF8D048AB08991 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/3/18 12:38 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes > from  draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? > > It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=0.0.0.0 in > offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. > As it stands, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how > draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used. To be clear, the other changes you cite are specific to SIP, as evidenced by the fact that JSEP does not need to make use of them. I don't see a major problem with moving them (other than it being make-work), but I also don't see any value in doing so. /a --------------6539FF7135EF8D048AB08991 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 4/3/18 12:38 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:
Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes from  draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp?

It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=0.0.0.0 in offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As it stands,  draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used.

To be clear, the other changes you cite are specific to SIP, as evidenced by the fact that JSEP does not need to make use of them. I don't see a major problem with moving them (other than it being make-work), but I also don't see any value in doing so.

/a
--------------6539FF7135EF8D048AB08991-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0831412D778; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:49:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nAfZgc1zd411; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A4A61243F6; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33HnZ43090702 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:49:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4D4B2462-31B0-44E2-8B9D-2C50238E69A7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:49:34 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Roman Shpount , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org To: Eric Rescorla References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:49:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4D4B2462-31B0-44E2-8B9D-2C50238E69A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Roman Shpount = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 4/3/18 1:29 AM, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > >=20 > The second issue doesn't necessarily pertain to this document per se = as much > as it does the interaction among this document, draft-ietf-ice-trickle = (Trickle > ICE), draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp (ICE SDP), and = draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep > (JSEP). The problem doesn't lie with any single document, but in the = overall > result of how they're currently structured. >=20 > JSEP (in the RFC editor queue) refers to the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" = SDP attribute > as appearing in Trickle ICE, section 9.3, which was true at one point = in time. > Somewhere along the line, this attribute's definition was moved from = there > into this document. >=20 > There are several ways to fix this, each with their own drawbacks: >=20 > 1. Move the SDP syntax for "a=3Dend-of-candidates" back into the = Trickle ICE > draft. Drawback: Trickle ICE does not currently define any = normative SDP > behavior; and, in fact, could work in a system that doesn't use SDP = at all. >=20 > 2. Move the SDP syntax into the ICE SDP draft. This is pretty elegant = from the > perspective that ICE SDP defines SDP syntax for ICE in general (for = both > SIP and JSEP), and such a move aggregates all of the SDP syntax = into a > single document that is already necessary to reference from any = document > that uses SDP for Trickle ICE. Drawback: the document doesn't = presently > discuss Trickle ICE at all, and this would require a somewhat = awkward > section that basically says "If you use [Trickle ICE] with SDP, the = syntax > for the end-of-candidate marker is..." >=20 > 3. Change JSEP to normatively depend on this document for the > "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax. Drawback: This document is = extremely > SIP-specific, while JSEP is based solely on RFC 4566 syntax and RFC = 3264 > behavior, independent of any SIP semantics. Forcing JSEP to = normatively > depend on a SIP specific document for a simple attribute syntax = definition > seems to be letting the tail wag the dog. >=20 > I believe that #2 is the least inelegant option, but I'm open to #1 = and #3. > However, The *current* situation -- in which JSEP normatively points = to a > document from which the text is cites has been removed out from under = it -- is > clearly wrong. > IMHO the ICE WG had consensus to remove all normative SDP references > from draft-ietf-ice-trickle and place them in > draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip. Does it really matter what kind of > document JSEP points to, as long as the "a=3Dend-of-candidates" = definition > can be found there? > I was working on a comment to the same effect when I saw Peter=E2=80=99s= . >=20 > I see Adam=E2=80=99s option 1 as a non-starter since it explicitly = reverses that consensus. I see 2 and 3 to be equally awkward, in which = case 3 requires the least amount of structural change. If there was an = option that required no change to jsep at all(since it is currently with = the RFC editor), but IIUC, none of the choices allow for that. >=20 > I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies = on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. >=20 >=20 > Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes = from draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to = draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? >=20 > It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=3D0.0.0.0 in = offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As = it stands, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how = draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used. >=20 > I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the normative dependency = from JSEP to SIP We do references to =E2=80=9Csection XXX of RFC YYYY=E2=80=9D all the = time to refer to specific points in an RFC of larger scope. I agree = it=E2=80=99s not ideal, but =E2=80=9Cnot done=E2=80=9D is also not = ideal. Ben. --Apple-Mail=_4D4B2462-31B0-44E2-8B9D-2C50238E69A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrDvq4ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A32oQ/9ELqhvYrRgIsPJYvpWe1hEOygoyRTHuQDYlZYkwJtqbdf6kit1bb1dwyI TmWP0LwPhJrbdYjhKhGFv9hfml6JoAYPmy6uvmqTjGy0aZSD0va1LEa6dfo25Bd7 +0shDQ93gki+aRK1AaH+xxrMGMUBAYGHFfuGZ669AkBZpCnVBb31/JBsEzOguNGE Gn4w/OxmoiDsL+rjHM3YNBdNg4ZGOVhOYOn2eOaH45BeRgRvDnzcewxFAom/496F o/vVNgzzYQk6ig4RG/5wamHftc2+7hVQEIEBmJQi5uLMmIyRwy//+TWRFideYfVB F2hpncRXCKPkcMcv/QGoOUcM3Nkf07bXkqYS+/+do0ObyZ95bRCJDSRo17DfFblW N6bIW7/G9AAHLWpWt9m7C3/3BDH4YC8oCP+qJd7spff9Pf8TX99dw4+b7wbIfr+A mEcfGbARV9bO/ek2wCXLuR6auoO4Zj0cS5bwr0OAtKgl1Gy+705E2AepHHKUC7N3 mkj3hXcUwSj6k/t4p87P5QqcJiDUuEjeKPUc04lTmKP1ZsmTPxy1qiasYOBrhozJ SFJzfdHNesaMY718yboELjekW5E8r9X0PQmd5NxVKfKS0LfSUF0XrQ60ghbIl5jY NYwwXT3CGg3ey3gdM3LdmQPUUZO2xwJ4jI92MbtwwuGPM1DingU= =Vjx/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4D4B2462-31B0-44E2-8B9D-2C50238E69A7-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD566126D85; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4yZue13ztZg; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9EA5126C83; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 10:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33HsKvk091488 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:54:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_356BC256-487E-4960-9F0C-D1C83B302531"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:54:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , Peter Saint-Andre , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org To: Eric Rescorla References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:54:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_356BC256-487E-4960-9F0C-D1C83B302531 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies = on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. > > >=20 > I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for = readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less = effort.). >=20 > If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate = trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99s= the past of most effort. >=20 > But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer = to WG consensus. >=20 > Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, = which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved = document. I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it=E2=80=99s quite = reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don=E2=80=99t = think a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus. Ben. --Apple-Mail=_356BC256-487E-4960-9F0C-D1C83B302531 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrDv8sACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0w/g/9Hwquq5N2mTLwnJjZi9HJvFeTAao2SfZmb3qGmvRb364h5tA7IxAS46ZU KKxUvPwMNY27rhromHvbkFLYpZS6xdet+hBxMDwhbcA7kK/FO1Hhf28emdCtXsob wCDUUwGmAeViVFztZhYy4kHiQIRw84oLP/bLXF1knEVVnHL3WHlxtW/WVcLMBszW yeA6SEafDQvu7pptq3ilEeAw4ytsp+TmwmsQfDz5kGZzxCPnS9I6uqmRI31uZUjz hT2d3rgVseiSO3Dh6ECSh+XNdDErA3kDai2iuwGHa9+HwllDZJLmSlK15Km32zz+ VOSvyp8Js05mND6VWRJFGAkTmAVhF3kz93ejBSRwP6a5t6s9o9szX+5VRNjRD0ce XjGp7d5l/jh2wmWtovjp7JR+u43ttFhtmMJ72KS72BsxCgkyI3JkOATGi4QroyiV QSEnXy/I0ULol1hDG5Cs5qZq9qJTEfwvOh04tOyANDW5cSDH6+9gK2iKhsvY9R8q tcm8vITjnTfVaRelaWORkUjxu1bUpUFYYotB3cAohFGIg1wcvVKH1HbXtuoHVG86 vXfXzDg4m3ghGISG77q9d48gzpjIVL3cAaYLVIIbGcKk/dXOuSxD+B4/eYORY/OJ e2gDmI8ywnqkPeC21odNOZlHT7y0O3F4klLv5cXTRwdu1YejmzE= =i+EF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_356BC256-487E-4960-9F0C-D1C83B302531-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A37312EAD6 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:00:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKPjjqGqWng0 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22b.google.com (mail-pl0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEE0E12EAE9 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id b6-v6so7931118pla.11 for ; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=i6LuCc25YMYr+Q2zGRJr1vtPUSAl8OoFlkMt1XF4bzg=; b=GIm4wPBheeBE6SlPNCd6sKIwKo7tRZLTl2qKY6/ByymFbmtZS8vvMmI8A/+5ZGPAky 67Qxe+FQVlOvAiBxnGV3Exfu8qHgvbumlQCPg5LEcd5zAr3nZxWVdVQojWYd9fVWmFX9 /+SUxwDknVA0My+E9FeXRluyyz1xxJsAU6opo7EduA2SKzV3L6AvNm83L5vZW+assOKc U334mLDj/GA9eI4ZK8VluBBLD6uKfnQF/2+FZpWrcVV+GvEAe6m3v1C6VsTYXxZo/cqk aWuut9J5Om8fWrpzhIpZ5xaDZ4tv8Rt0DCElJtSoDjBicTUOIh/+ARSGKOinoJ2+s3Vu nSEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=i6LuCc25YMYr+Q2zGRJr1vtPUSAl8OoFlkMt1XF4bzg=; b=tKDpwMHxwMAWFCKsZB4EYQwVGFvLnsRtJJiFsho1uFMt6FxPrNKDGAb/AF02k55XNb 26naLDWIZqmsdOqalEu6omA67AGuJOaxM5MCYcy3E1A19rhx9IRCRpiYOr2CqlDiTCr9 XC+mCzW8iJEpVNHuMzyYkD/XI0t1EgJkfZd4BLCAs5N7YhPOuAxIk4iJnS9gSku7DILV lgkCuCkg/5P2mauQ8aBKln8xOJS3f3FksgqaRrWqYEy73h7dgp0P/MfeG7iOzH4cer6I ihJaqUxs4AvP2U1FcUgX8DaGmOAoYHmfs/ZaxnZwPLFnsIW9mw+plrvSbBJKjG0wtBII CTeA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HEGBzKi8uptkg3rAm7ig5XU6aEfT6US11eFGWzCLVHmKYKrBMr mUa2xogR5ReSG9eZpcDVIxo9s4mI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+zMAosxmlEf8IfhtdIj0DsuFrXZrKODEAVNXwKiSt0WBcAMeDYLPkTi7ITWQHWZ43Jl63qjw== X-Received: by 10.98.80.145 with SMTP id g17mr11361581pfj.71.1522778436576; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-f54.google.com (mail-pl0-f54.google.com. [209.85.160.54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 86sm7805956pfh.93.2018.04.03.11.00.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-f54.google.com with SMTP id g20-v6so9890785plo.9; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:00:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8548:: with SMTP id d8-v6mr15506600plo.241.1522778435567; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:00:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.185.79 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:00:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:00:34 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Eric Rescorla , Ben Campbell , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b948dd0568f57b39" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:01:00 -0000 --000000000000b948dd0568f57b39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 4/3/18 12:38 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > > Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes > from draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? > > It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=0.0.0.0 in > offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As it > stands, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how > draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used. > > > To be clear, the other changes you cite are specific to SIP, as evidenced > by the fact that JSEP does not need to make use of them. I don't see a > major problem with moving them (other than it being make-work), but I also > don't see any value in doing so. > All the things I have referenced are being used by JSEP. For instance current in draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-24 ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-24#section-5.2.1): If the m= section is marked as bundle-only, then the port value MUST be set to 0. Otherwise, the port value is set to the port of the default ICE candidate for this m= section, but given that no candidates are available yet, the "dummy" port value of 9 (Discard) MUST be used, as indicated in [I-D.ietf-ice-trickle], Section 5.1. I am fairly sure this is no longer in ietf-ice-trickle and was moved to draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14#section-4.1.1 ). Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000b948dd0568f57b39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 4/3/18 12= :38 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:
Do you want to move all other trickle ICE specific SDP related changes from =C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-s= ip to draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp?

It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=3D0.0.0.0 in offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As it stands,=C2=A0 draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-si= p=C2=A0changes how=C2=A0draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp=C2=A0works when trickle ICE is used.

 To be clear, the other changes you cite are specific to SIP, as evidenced by the fact that JSEP does not need to make use of them. I don't see a major problem with moving them (other than it being make-work), but I also don't see any value in doing so.

All the things I have referenced are being used = by JSEP.

For instance current in draft-ietf-rtcweb= -jsep-24 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-24#sectio= n-5.2.1):

If the m=3D section is marked as bundle-only, then the port value MUST be s= et to 0.=C2=A0 Otherwise, the port value is set to the port of the default = ICE candidate for this m=3D section, but given that no candidates are avail= able yet, the "dummy" port value of 9 (Discard) MUST be used, as = indicated in [I-D.ietf-ice-trickle], Section 5.1. =C2=A0

I am fairly sure this i= s no longer in=20 ietf-ice-trickle=C2=A0 and was moved to dr= aft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip (https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14#section-4.1.1).

Regards,
<= div class=3D"gmail_signature">_____________
Roman Shpount

--000000000000b948dd0568f57b39-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E4612D7F9; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:04:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CyqCrLtLjaDo; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35A2812EA42; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33I3XsT093111 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:03:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Ben Campbell , Eric Rescorla Cc: mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , Peter Saint-Andre , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:03:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:04:21 -0000 On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> >>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. >>> >> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less effort.). >> >> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that’s the past of most effort. >> >> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer to WG consensus. >> >> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved document. > > I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it’s quite reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don’t think a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus. I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined the "a=end-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSIC and ICE had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having finished first -- that they should define the syntax and have the trickle-ice-sip document reference JSEP? I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first is a nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you're proposing. I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather than the three working groups. /a From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:54:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF46012E8A4; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:22:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01xH36K864T8; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x22c.google.com (mail-ua0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29ECB12D80E; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id l21so11627968uak.1; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:22:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Jk7EvySYIjrC1R635lzoIDDuJcckB/u7zCl84MxPMic=; b=RH5wwDnBXZg+PXJexS9ZDuzHybId2y0guLUXGW9xVbQTWj52+2jJB7j9AGhLXARVXk yH0f23x+eV9cZlGuulxEjWT+NrFes20dC0bzo/HPv40FmLncT6GDPcT/74HsQbE7wRGE dPc3B1iVUiAj/QeoGuc3rNkmVNiP1NU+AKtlZ8QYAB9LEE0diNOTZ2nAeOOLC6LTQGv1 kKeQsgLDUr7Qr/KBc6Pk4mqpPx4IjE2tPTBhmiipe7i1DB1RiyFd/8NIYd6V5lEzW1/b v5Vt4FmBddXSNWVFrvnd4r6kedE6wCkpMR0Jm+qQ2kj1GgwVK8hAsx/nxaYt0mX52/uk f2Vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Jk7EvySYIjrC1R635lzoIDDuJcckB/u7zCl84MxPMic=; b=HxXKAZcPNppqQYmyUc/76e3MQq3GOY2n0T3VXQqUVcTGkZrzyPpmupu4Dbf9yuoAUN fph+c3068/69gFOQoQGWDwokI+i5lkOvhpldp52mmKPm3tRm79lG7qf2MnB1selODYKE RtlLu6rGOPGk4KpBPk2JzRFH0QONRgGoxV11iu+PHx7wLCX0b6DRHSLPZq/px1IXJhL9 Vl7uBo4mrhPdDaf/fxxlmHbKPNGIV2wR/2O77yDg2XGe1VCiri+PJFRMxRwwgJOSLpfB kgshensN4o/hlwAhvMKii/kweNX/9p/6UVqSspQMZ4FHzwJl4cQr4cPy9KYEBXNxP9Ro 240w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAdLwrLMtMMChTOzXRVPOlcPMKyNPR3+dmVDp5w2i6fD9axw7ry eTgujyCMZJWZrtlUW2EccjTeqfkNaFUKMFSjvpI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49LVGOYABrhIKSHIbUgv+7WT4uTh5z1B88dNHPoIEk3IxRukhqacXCMUhuRIr+YJKJmYW2lP//irgdHepKUl+A= X-Received: by 10.159.55.104 with SMTP id a37mr9002406uae.11.1522779730112; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:22:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:21:59 +0000 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Ben Campbell , Eric Rescorla , Flemming Andreasen , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114067bee275610568f5c854" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:22:15 -0000 --001a114067bee275610568f5c854 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adding a data point Icebis doesn=E2=80=99t talk about trickle ice and hence ice-sip-SDP doesn= =E2=80=99t either. In the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-sip-SDP focussing on trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ? Does that work ? On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach wrote: > On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >>> > >>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies > on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. > >>> > >> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for > readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less > effort.). > >> > >> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate > trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99= s the past > of most effort. > >> > >> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer t= o > WG consensus. > >> > >> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, > which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved > document. > > > > I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it=E2=80=99s quite > reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don=E2=80=99t thin= k a > dependent WG gets to just override that consensus. > > I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined the > "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSIC and IC= E > had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both > documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical > meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having finished > first -- that they should define the syntax and have the trickle-ice-sip > document reference JSEP? > > I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first is a > nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you're > proposing. > > I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather > than the three working groups. > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > --001a114067bee275610568f5c854 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Adding a data point=C2=A0
Icebis doesn=E2=80=99t talk about trickle ice and = hence ice-sip-SDP doesn=E2=80=99t either.

=
In the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-si= p-SDP focussing on trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ?


Does that work ?=C2=A0


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other de= pendencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2.<= br> >>>
>> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward f= or readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less = effort.).
>>
>> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate= trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99s= the past of most effort.
>>
>> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should def= er to WG consensus.
>>
>> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP,= which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved d= ocument.
>
> I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it=E2=80=99s quit= e reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don=E2=80=99t thin= k a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus.

I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined th= e
"a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSI= C and ICE
had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical
meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having finished first -- that they should define the syntax and have the trickle-ice-sip document reference JSEP?

I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first is = a
nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you'= re
proposing.

I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather than the three working groups.

/a

_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
--001a114067bee275610568f5c854-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:55:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071612D7F7; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:28:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvAiV84Dx8hM; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 405E7124BE8; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n64so7626343vkf.12; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:28:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mysX+mSoNWlATAiKXpXaPKWd5hqPtiQnD7wj1XB4yo4=; b=an2bBKk0BRZFAy2/roizruZOrQjOCgyQjdZe+BDPSVJ4bg7g/K9zv7AFtdYm1xg7yZ XcLfLzCOg5wnt7ycFNyGPMfUv/R+/90x4z4V25x698LJujOf1xXHIFSgWi9xYAp7BX/Y bQW3CoG3JZGp7jn8bhOXmq+u52tAai2z3CGd2JSjc9iPzexQrw0llTOJrFpRcY+yMIh7 AyNVKzicGOXlu+u1ujx1+Hf9Ra9L5VpQgKev1yxE5CfYKiwIj5EefUOmvR+TGJlsmmY3 XDfKLwFORcVK4Y3HQruXGnL+d6AJYVMMmV0yxWMQ9yEeN13wiHfQ3Qi4nb4RHzqCyNZc WZhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mysX+mSoNWlATAiKXpXaPKWd5hqPtiQnD7wj1XB4yo4=; b=LjWLMJ6QFqtMWoY8t+aungW56Qe01I/GJ9ojO5GDp7LYFG8xgjjZjsFgSxcI4hnAN6 PUsqeCzhz/2Crj8sLR4K+FQdbslIuadZG/3btb5JE79Q6BIir2CXS2eKbrfKJ/Ho5aLE dZzgybVAPI7kXr2Ec7f5ItBmBMlZNXmEk1neBS0TxejUTWBXhvZh73I5WYqrUchgDzzP 7zD1gVNhVsRZqZlf18hpp6I6CDoYqJOZd+jLN258MbbAgsPstEWsY2S129esQ/I3o7Mr zw3zrzwHCCk0CSQpzfScZLStoFAdi1vKj7w/dkJK0+ExWD6lx/58QH6kCb0imzQEFGcu NY4A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDxz95Oi6V9DGRUIxJIly6IDFZYn+C3S3bap7JLociyRcbR06fp xFZVw06ryz/KXBFRxnspV8Jt5tTdGHBl3pTb/P0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49u6PwQ36oLkpL2BOo+NXAZBUoNiSBFCaTpNPMhY6fLL3HBeoXNBdXH/dlAPXqiFfMw6ATPlyrWuaHLPIrcz4U= X-Received: by 10.31.174.80 with SMTP id x77mr8595019vke.101.1522780089273; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 11:28:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:27:58 +0000 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: Ben Campbell , Eric Rescorla , Flemming Andreasen , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1143fa3a4ad2460568f5de4e" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:28:13 -0000 --001a1143fa3a4ad2460568f5de4e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=E2=80=99t normatively reference ice-sip-SDP= draft when it moved to using =E2=80=9Cusages =E2=80=9C indirections for signaling= protocols. Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as usage for trickle. Thanks Suhas On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:21 AM Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > Adding a data point > > Icebis doesn=E2=80=99t talk about trickle ice and hence ice-sip-SDP doesn= =E2=80=99t either. > > In the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-sip-SDP focussing > on trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ? > > > Does that work ? > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach wrote: > >> On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> > >> >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell wrote= : >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies >> on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2. >> >>> >> >> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for >> readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less >> effort.). >> >> >> >> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate >> trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80= =99s the past >> of most effort. >> >> >> >> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer >> to WG consensus. >> >> >> >> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, >> which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved >> document. >> > >> > I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it=E2=80=99s quit= e >> reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don=E2=80=99t thi= nk a >> dependent WG gets to just override that consensus. >> >> I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined the >> "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSIC and I= CE >> had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both >> documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical >> meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having finished >> first -- that they should define the syntax and have the trickle-ice-sip >> document reference JSEP? >> >> I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first is a >> nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you're >> proposing. >> >> I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather >> than the three working groups. >> >> /a >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >> > --001a1143fa3a4ad2460568f5de4e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=E2=80=99t normativel= y reference ice-sip-SDP draft when it moved to using =E2=80=9Cusages =E2=80= =9C indirections for signaling protocols.

=

Trickle ice can use similar a= pproach and refer to trickle-sip as usage for trickle.

Thanks
Suhas=C2=A0
On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:21 AM Suha= s Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com= > wrote:
Adding a data point=C2=A0

Icebis doesn=E2=80=99t talk about trickle ice and hence ice-sip-SDP d= oesn=E2=80=99t either.

I= n the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-sip-SDP focussing on = trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ?


Does that work ?= =C2=A0


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:<= br> >
>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other de= pendencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2.<= br> >>>
>> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward f= or readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less = effort.).
>>
>> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate= trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99s= the past of most effort.
>>
>> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should def= er to WG consensus.
>>
>> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP,= which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved d= ocument.
>
> I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it=E2=80=99s quit= e reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don=E2=80=99t thin= k a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus.

I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined th= e
"a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSI= C and ICE
had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical
meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having finished first -- that they should define the syntax and have the trickle-ice-sip document reference JSEP?

I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first is = a
nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you'= re
proposing.

I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather than the three working groups.

/a

_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
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--001a1143fa3a4ad2460568f5de4e-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:55:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F008612EA5A; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:29:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B2mgxobLuAWH; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 092AD12EA87; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 11:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33IT1bn097356 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:29:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Suhas Nandakumar Cc: Ben Campbell , Eric Rescorla , Flemming Andreasen , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <0503b397-787a-a0de-15aa-dc6dee57a4f8@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:28:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F126C25807B9208D48B05CB1" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:29:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F126C25807B9208D48B05CB1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Like I said originally, none of these are particularly clean. Your proposal points towards either #1 or #3, and I highlighted their drawbacks in my original message. Fundamentally, the suggestion Ben made is the only clean one: split trickle-ice-sip into two documents: one deals with SIP (think a parallel to RFC 3261) while the other deals with SDP (think a parallel to RFC 3264). But I also agree with him that sending the document back to the WG for such a split would introduce a significant amount of work. Absent that, we need to pick which wart we're going to accept. /a On 4/3/18 1:21 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > Adding a data point > > Icebis doesn’t talk about trickle ice and hence ice-sip-SDP doesn’t > either. > > In the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-sip-SDP > focussing on trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ? > > > Does that work ? > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach > wrote: > > On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell > wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: > >>> > >>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other > dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, > lets do #2. > >>> > >> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally > awkward for readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer > changes (that is, less effort.). > >> > >> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a > separate trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. > But that’s the past of most effort. > >> > >> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should > defer to WG consensus. > >> > >> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to > JSEP, which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an > IESG-approved document. > > > > I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it’s quite > reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don’t think > a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus. > > I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined the > "a=end-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSIC > and ICE > had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both > documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical > meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having > finished > first -- that they should define the syntax and have the > trickle-ice-sip > document reference JSEP? > > I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the > first is a > nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you're > proposing. > > I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather > than the three working groups. > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > --------------F126C25807B9208D48B05CB1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Like I said originally, none of these are particularly clean. Your proposal points towards either #1 or #3, and I highlighted their drawbacks in my original message.

Fundamentally, the suggestion Ben made is the only clean one: split trickle-ice-sip into two documents: one deals with SIP (think a parallel to RFC 3261) while the other deals with SDP (think a parallel to RFC 3264). But I also agree with him that sending the document back to the WG for such a split would introduce a significant amount of work.

Absent that, we need to pick which wart we're going to accept.

/a

On 4/3/18 1:21 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:
Adding a data point 

Icebis doesn’t talk about trickle ice and hence ice-sip-SDP doesn’t either.

In the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-sip-SDP focussing on trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ?


Does that work ? 


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do #2.
>>>
>> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward for readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, less effort.).
>>
>> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that’s the past of most effort.
>>
>> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should defer to WG consensus.
>>
>> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved document.
>
> I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it’s quite reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don’t think a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus.

I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined the
"a=end-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSIC and ICE
had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both
documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical
meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having finished
first -- that they should define the syntax and have the trickle-ice-sip
document reference JSEP?

I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first is a
nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you're
proposing.

I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather
than the three working groups.

/a

_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic


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ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.63]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 81.FB.21035.56BC3CA5; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 20:43:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.115]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 20:43:09 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Adam Roach , Suhas Nandakumar CC: Ben Campbell , Eric Rescorla , "Flemming Andreasen" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTy2yX73Ehi4UWF02QdXKK9x8zEKPvKNAAgAAAqICAAAKUAIAAAkMAgAAC5ICAAAKPAIAABSyAgAAB8QCAACT40A== Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 18:43:09 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E43E90@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> 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smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 194-v6sm862143itm.15.2018.04.03.12.20.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 12:20:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach Cc: Ben Campbell , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 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Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 19:20:16 -0000 On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > Just to complete, ice-bis doesn’t normatively reference ice-sip-SDP > draft when it moved to using “usages “ indirections for signaling protocols. > > > Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as usage > for trickle. It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of draft-ietf-ice-trickle. Peter From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:55:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D2612D868; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:22:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q5LrD4cLvM7m; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61B671242F7; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33JM7P6006475 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:22:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F245D20C-39E2-4BD0-9212-91B2FF7723BE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:22:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> Cc: Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 19:22:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F245D20C-39E2-4BD0-9212-91B2FF7723BE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=E2=80=99t normatively reference = ice-sip-SDP >> draft when it moved to using =E2=80=9Cusages =E2=80=9C indirections = for signaling protocols. >>=20 >>=20 >> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as = usage >> for trickle. >=20 > It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of > draft-ietf-ice-trickle. I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I = also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) Thanks, Ben. --Apple-Mail=_F245D20C-39E2-4BD0-9212-91B2FF7723BE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrD1F8ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A2Iqw//WgI389gyLqsJz5beKg5/rdC5MHTRXbQg0qxCGI32jhmKqmootFjmT4lK Dx3BZB5yJBT/Ny7v3aXcbD7pz8UWFFXKYtn0svO0M4tk8VBRW6ti8H6zq1it6H+8 6nAvaSVj5e1+H++4CrrBmzxrnxmjSFSIDFtBqiByickXiaKzTDRtJCWriwhCQRgf Q4xWXo81WmD6RTuPlvusr3PtQykzhxsQSe+buprrGvrAL+eQuic96ZKvwTsWS2HY gimFCENGifQ3oW8UrUtJcwnBVAN70PMjmZxqL4FfTolTTNjTpFxvCsktoNr18985 QsPynmxWOEgQjcryZZht6KU0S9UNeIf957S6/n+JVOizSgvx7xCMU4R9m8B2YT4o JxMlWy7x1PL7gHNou0UAEhug8XM0fnR+Bp6XyLfhh4CYTTMpnEV71Q9O0CbDhwlV qumq7VVLUr95x+Vd6OnIqZY2QyUROsV0T+fZMm1uawgLbBKARPvBbCoE2v8FbdM5 ut0PvFbg6Jvj951NrIl4acLkbn7EAYGYsECcGKR6s2xUpNXOUEvCDl6u77vXjk2w ETDP+NLlJdbgsxP2pFMDgG/5/I3ayUYKo6VQkzTwGTWLz/dCU98nG9AH96hWsATh q2DhRin1i9TeiF6KbgDcvLrB/JEHsVojnQx6n6eXGpyWn7mOp+I= =D3vU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F245D20C-39E2-4BD0-9212-91B2FF7723BE-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 14:55:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E3112EA64; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:34:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rgZIR5PTDs_M; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 834B312D864; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 12:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w33JYLsL008394 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:34:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <9AE05B60-9E8E-42C8-B114-3A92A0186604@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ED5E25F7-8FAC-49FF-92D7-180512CF7808"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 14:34:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: <0503b397-787a-a0de-15aa-dc6dee57a4f8@nostrum.com> Cc: Suhas Nandakumar , Eric Rescorla , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org To: Adam Roach , Roman Shpount , Peter Saint-Andre References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <0503b397-787a-a0de-15aa-dc6dee57a4f8@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 19:34:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ED5E25F7-8FAC-49FF-92D7-180512CF7808 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 3, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > Like I said originally, none of these are particularly clean. Your = proposal points towards either #1 or #3, and I highlighted their = drawbacks in my original message. >=20 > Fundamentally, the suggestion Ben made is the only clean one: split = trickle-ice-sip into two documents: one deals with SIP (think a parallel = to RFC 3261) while the other deals with SDP (think a parallel to RFC = 3264). But I also agree with him that sending the document back to the = WG for such a split would introduce a significant amount of work. >=20 > Absent that, we need to pick which wart we're going to accept. Roman suggested in s separate thread branch that there is more to this = than just "a=3Dend-of-candidates=E2=80=9D. Roman said: > It is not just end-of-candidates, but also support for c=3D0.0.0.0 in = offers, SDP offers without the candidates, different mismatch rules. As = it stands, draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip changes how = draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp works when trickle ICE is used. >=20 =E2=80=A6 and also =E2=80=A6 > For instance current in draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-24 = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-24#section-5.2.1): >=20 > If the m=3D section is marked as bundle-only, then the port value MUST = be set to 0. Otherwise, the port value is set to the port of the = default ICE candidate for this m=3D section, but given that no = candidates are available yet, the "dummy" port value of 9 (Discard) MUST = be used, as indicated in [I-D.ietf-ice-trickle], Section 5.1. >=20 > I am fairly sure this is no longer in ietf-ice-trickle and was moved = to draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip = (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14#section-= 4.1.1). I think maybe we need a sweep of jsep to get a definitive list of = references that need to change due the current document structure. = Without that list, it=E2=80=99s hard to really assess the amount of work = implied by each proposed fix. (Note that we will need such a list one = way or another before JSEP can be published=E2=80=94so this does not add = new work per se.) Roman and Peter: Can you compile a list? Perhaps with the assistance of = a JSEP author? (I=E2=80=99d suggest Ekr, but I know that as an AD his = time is scarce this week.) Thanks! Ben. >=20 > /a >=20 > On 4/3/18 1:21 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >> Adding a data point >>=20 >> Icebis doesn=E2=80=99t talk about trickle ice and hence ice-sip-SDP = doesn=E2=80=99t either. >>=20 >> In the same context, would ice trickle and ice-trickle-sip-SDP = focussing on trickle ice only procedures and usages makes sense ? >>=20 >>=20 >> Does that work ? >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 11:04 AM Adam Roach wrote: >> On 4/3/18 12:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> > >> >> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:35 AM, Ben Campbell = wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 12:26 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I don't think #3 is acceptable. AFAIK JSEP has no other = dependencies on SIP. If you think #2 and #3 are equally awkward, lets do = #2. >> >>> >> >> I said they are equally awkward (by which I mean equally awkward = for readers after publication), but 3 requires fewer changes (that is, = less effort.). >> >> >> >> If we want to go for least awkward, that probably means a separate = trickle-ice-sdp draft in parallel to the ice sdp draft. But that=E2=80=99s= the past of most effort. >> >> >> >> But honestly, I think this is the sort of point that we should = defer to WG consensus. >> >> >> >> Which WG? As I understand it, this would require a change to JSEP, = which would also require WG consensus, plus a change to an IESG-approved = document. >> > >> > I mean consensus of the WGs producing the documents. it=E2=80=99s = quite reasonable for a dependent WG to offer feedback, but I don=E2=80=99t= think a dependent WG gets to just override that consensus. >>=20 >> I don't think it's as clean cut as that. JSEP could have defined the >> "a=3Dend-of-candidates" syntax, and certainly would have if MMUSIC = and ICE >> had pulled it out of their documents. But I don't think we want both >> documents independently registering identical syntaxes with identical >> meanings, right? Or I suppose JSEP could have decided -- having = finished >> first -- that they should define the syntax and have the = trickle-ice-sip >> document reference JSEP? >>=20 >> I'm offering those up as examples, not proposals. I think the first = is a >> nonstarter, and the second is... well, it's as awkward as what you're >> proposing. >>=20 >> I'm beginning to think we need to to take the question to ART rather >> than the three working groups. >>=20 >> /a >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >=20 --Apple-Mail=_ED5E25F7-8FAC-49FF-92D7-180512CF7808 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrD1zwACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0K9w//R89RIGaomYmvm/2UeSPSunfm3nMeOkEDmqGFgMlZrIg2orHim+DOvWXF a4skwAnf18KnC0GncSup5V6T7DFUBtWL73mgBpuwhJugCCLdZFekL9mNeuyVbWAt MyZDROE11Q+WI4XneCX6Fguv0DSxVglsMtvyfSYYvsYH7fAqVngYjhDnzA5uf2BW 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h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=baPLodCsgz6QszvzwuHZczTKUetnJbc3AxyHV8MXy0M=; b=fP9Y8ipinDs8xzDFQ2Wpnbl/WebmQ0UD65w0eDbikEd0in5UFMA/lb60jfJDnggg Ce/lraPXZ9cgvGq/affFnfZ4QP8KNTmUf5gssQ+H2uPniWq5BjsmAZxoB2G+TZWF xmiWdX3twNJ/x9dz2RAzARTPy5Sx0JoIBi2LJtLLU9I=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-e19ff700000073d9-62-5ac3e02c68c6 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.39]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B5.6D.29657.C20E3CA5; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 22:12:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.115]) by ESESSHC007.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 22:12:27 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Ben Campbell , Adam Roach , "Roman Shpount" , Peter Saint-Andre CC: Suhas Nandakumar , Eric Rescorla , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTy2yX73Ehi4UWF02QdXKK9x8zEKPvKNAAgAAAqICAAAKUAIAAAkMAgAAC5ICAAAKPAIAABSyAgAAB8QCAABJGAIAAJ6xw Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 20:12:27 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4424B@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <0503b397-787a-a0de-15aa-dc6dee57a4f8@nostrum.com> <9AE05B60-9E8E-42C8-B114-3A92A0186604@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <9AE05B60-9E8E-42C8-B114-3A92A0186604@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.162] 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<3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:41:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1142637829567c0568f7bb27" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 14:53:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 20:41:33 -0000 --001a1142637829567c0568f7bb27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > > > On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > >> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=E2=80=99t normatively reference ice-si= p-SDP > >> draft when it moved to using =E2=80=9Cusages =E2=80=9C indirections fo= r signaling > protocols. > >> > >> > >> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as usage > >> for trickle. > > > > It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of > > draft-ietf-ice-trickle. > > I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I also > assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) > > That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes (thus small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, trickle-sip to refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for these drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we pick, there is some work that needs to be done and we should do it. > Thanks, > > Ben. > > --001a1142637829567c0568f7bb27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:


> On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:
>
> On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:
>> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=E2=80=99t normatively reference ic= e-sip-SDP
>> draft when it moved to using =E2=80=9Cusages =E2=80=9C indirection= s for signaling protocols.
>>
>>
>> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as u= sage
>> for trickle.
>
> It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of=
> draft-ietf-ice-trickle.

I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I= also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.)


That's right Ben .. I was just thi= nking minimal localized changes (thus small time to get new draft done) and= then asking trickle, trickle-sip to=C2=A0
refer to the new one. = (work done to refer is much smaller for these drafts that are at the very e= nd of approval journey)

I do agree with Adam, no m= atter what version of the proposal we pick, there is some work that needs t= o be done and we
should do it.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0<= /div>
Thanks,

Ben.


--001a1142637829567c0568f7bb27-- From nobody Tue Apr 3 17:55:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 921BC127775; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 17:54:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Adam Roach To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, nohlmeier@mozilla.com, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152280329955.24043.8508558299835263130.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 17:54:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 00:55:00 -0000 Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This document is part of the multi-document problem I flag in my DISCUSS on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip, and needs to block on finding a solution to that issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This document appears to generally be in good shape. I have some fairly minor comments. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §11: > signaling protocol in use. When this happens, agents will use > [rfc5245bis] semantics to determine whether or not the new candidate > information require an ICE restart. nit: "require" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §12: > 12. Unilateral Use of Trickle ICE (Half Trickle) I find the use of the word "Unilateral" here to be confusing: the offering party indicates support, and the answering party takes advantage of that support. I would suggest using a different term ("Asymmetrical" maybe?); or, even more simply, just replacing the entire section title with "Half Trickle". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §12: The following passage indicates that the offer in a half-trickle situation might not contain a full generation of candidates: > The initial ICE > description for half trickle would typically contain an end-of- > candidates indication, although this is not mandatory because if > trickle support is confirmed then the initiator can choose to trickle > additional candidates before it conveys an end-of-candidates > indication. But then, two sentences later: > Because the initial ICE description contain a full > generation of candidates... ...which seems to contradict that indication. (also, nit: "contains" rather than "contain") --------------------------------------------------------------------------- §15: > a=candidate:2 1 UDP 1694498815 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::3 5000 typ srflx > raddr 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::1 rport 8998 > a=candidate:2 2 UDP 1694498815 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::3 5001 typ srflx > raddr 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::1 rport 8998 [repeating a comment from draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip] Thanks for the IPv6 example; however, I have a *lot* of heartburn with the selection of an example that demonstrates IPv6 NAT behavior. Since ICE's srflx behavior is fundamentally tied to IPv4 NATs (and should not be an issue with IPv6, as NATs are unnecessary), I think it's okay for the srflx examples to go ahead and show IPv4 addresses. I *really* don't want to publish an RFC that demonstrates NATting of IPv6. 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Wed, 04 Apr 2018 09:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q13sm3468502ioh.83.2018.04.04.09.32.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org References: <152235718235.4397.6159667533096871849.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180329220203.GA80088@kduck.kaduk.org> <20180331175225.GE80088@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <503697bf-9b02-1585-9506-50f38aac8346@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:32:30 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180331175225.GE80088@kduck.kaduk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 16:32:35 -0000 On 3/31/18 11:52 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 05:15:45PM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 3/29/18 4:02 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 03:36:13PM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> On 3/29/18 2:59 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >>>>> Section 13 says that trickled candidate information may cause an ICE >>>>> restart using the 5245bis semantics, but I don't see anywhere in >>>>> 5245bis that would have additional candidate information induce a >>>>> restart. Is this the right reference? >>>> >>>> 5245bis states: >>>> >>>> To restart ICE, an agent MUST change both the password and the >>>> username fragment for the data stream(s) being restarted. >>>> >>>> Such a change could be included when sending candidate information. >>> >>> Thanks for the clarification. There is perhaps some subtle >>> state-keeping requirement on implementations, then, as section 8 (of >>> -18) notes: >>> >>> Also, candidate trickling needs to be correlated to a specific ICE >>> session, so that if there is an ICE restart, any delayed updates for >>> a previous session can be recognized as such and ignored by the >>> receiving party. >>> >>> In that one needs to keep state in order to tell between ignoring >>> delayed updates from a previous session and detecting a desire to >>> start a new session. >> >> Yes, this is handled by ICE agents by tracking which ICE session is in >> force (through the combination of Username Fragment and Password). I'm >> not sure it's all so subtle, though. > > I think it's a question of do you only keep one ufrag+password as > state ("the current sesion"), or some level of history. In the > former case, you can't tell between a delayed packet coming in from > an old session and a request to start a new one, IIUC. So the > subtlety would be if there is actually a requirement to track more > history than just the current session. Yes, this is something implementations need to handle (e.g., in order to discard candidates from an old ICE session), but it seems to me they could do so by knowing which ICE session is currently in force, not by keeping a history of old sessions. In any case, this feels like an implementation detail. 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XURoD15bcBbX9oI10UjLrHe0noB2Nr0Gn" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 16:45:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XURoD15bcBbX9oI10UjLrHe0noB2Nr0Gn Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MYVYo2jWri9M0naPv32payRpvZVDr6K4z"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1e31eef8-da5c-8d19-0caa-4f8f9b82d407@mozilla.com> Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: --MYVYo2jWri9M0naPv32payRpvZVDr6K4z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/3/18 9:38 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 4/2/18 11:13 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> Hi, >> >> A couple of comments: >> >>>> agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candi= date >>>> unless it is peer reflexive. >>>> >>>> IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, yo= u=20 >>>> follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the=20 >>>> connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? >>> >>> Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. >> ... >>>> Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? >>>> This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. >>> >>> Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check = would indeed make more sense. >> >> What if the pruning would result in a pair that e.g., is already in th= e Succeeded state to be removed? Is that what you want to do? >=20 > I don't think so. I'm on a call right now but will reply again. That was a long call. ;-) It seems to me that when a new candidate pair is received, we'd want to remove a duplicate pair only if it is in the Waiting or Frozen state. Peter --MYVYo2jWri9M0naPv32payRpvZVDr6K4z-- --XURoD15bcBbX9oI10UjLrHe0noB2Nr0Gn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlrFAQ4ACgkQZWGMGH9o FKn4gBAA3Vq/CF2vUHF6I4ls3+SQUWRYviDUiPFpest/in69rCADHuWa506E10Zb Gyn7wHtIMuEQGXDRMmh3PojHsiMq6i66aDCk3rtUhCEcA5HBUAmcu+O5ZWMYDV1F wS3rxpOAwATon66GQPrL1TDIr2XOq37mOeUpSaeO+Uqnx0z5hkgcCnTZkGyuILDq TyZKfhFOo7+BSoxHsc9Ip1PQBDVZ+VA48H87Qvg61cM5q+XfnkaSzwMLdgTU/wiX 8D01QcD4+XNXjzZ7Q0/QZZtHt7lE9ORkVEDpg9jcD22iCFUVEppubPuf+N8ezKrb wyU/I4wQ574T/3Ut6qkGlWMgCqflX+Bv5wXctXdKK9tCdw0gDPBdRDUwwENxrCDA q181p+nj2J8cBaeK0VCjYqB82JhtuGEyU0zB6qedfS8xMEzqnXEYCIlsKj08OuBG XhpnMNdcicHCpb4LaGENe4QDKwUNSopGAqpIMmiv1rtoKQq2OFYk4OI5S/IV1C+Y ibKEJevj9LKebQ2M623ehcNw5zdHgBgho4xsjEGrIo9DPKqdfpvf8jc3m/1tWWtt tFDaO0DgL+hLH1Nzz4JIxz0lQcKQbPG7wtzpt1m49p0NommClzPjn4v86tcyST0C l3eZwwElhSdlMZe6pzdQPQ/+zGZUANqd8HNrhjnmFJCq+cs/ACA= =y6Ym -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XURoD15bcBbX9oI10UjLrHe0noB2Nr0Gn-- From nobody Wed Apr 4 09:58:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DE1129C5D for ; 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Wed, 04 Apr 2018 09:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z89-v6sm2587783ita.24.2018.04.04.09.57.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 09:57:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <1e31eef8-da5c-8d19-0caa-4f8f9b82d407@mozilla.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <895a5f8f-1eaf-378c-0c04-fe6ecd498b3a@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:57:59 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e31eef8-da5c-8d19-0caa-4f8f9b82d407@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 16:58:11 -0000 On 4/4/18 10:45 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 4/3/18 9:38 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 4/2/18 11:13 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> A couple of comments: >>> >>>>> agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate >>>>> unless it is peer reflexive. >>>>> >>>>> IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you >>>>> follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the >>>>> connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? >>>> >>>> Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. >>> ... >>>>> Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? >>>>> This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. >>>> >>>> Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check would indeed make more sense. >>> >>> What if the pruning would result in a pair that e.g., is already in the Succeeded state to be removed? Is that what you want to do? >> >> I don't think so. I'm on a call right now but will reply again. > > That was a long call. ;-) > > It seems to me that when a new candidate pair is received, we'd want to > remove a duplicate pair only if it is in the Waiting or Frozen state. > Specifically, I suggest the following revised text for Section 8.1: ### 8.1. Pairing Newly Learned Candidates and Updating Check Lists Forming candidate pairs works as described in the ICE specification [rfc5245bis]. However, adding the new pair to a check list happens according to the following rules: 1. If the new pair's local candidate is server reflexive, the agent MUST replace the candidate with its base before completing the redundancy check in step 2. 2. The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in Section 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity checks have already yielded a definitive result). 3. If after the foregoing redundancy test the check list where the pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard the new pair. 4. Otherwise, add the new pair to the check list. ### Peter From nobody Wed Apr 4 10:21:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56BA512D7F6 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8SBtH0vhVBk9 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEB0D12D775 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152280329955.24043.8508558299835263130.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:21:55 -0000 Hi Adam, thanks for the review. Comments inline. On 4/3/18 6:54 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This document is part of the multi-document problem I flag in my DISCUSS on > draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip, and needs to block on finding a solution to > that issue. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This document appears to generally be in good shape. I have some fairly minor > comments. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > §11: > >> signaling protocol in use. When this happens, agents will use >> [rfc5245bis] semantics to determine whether or not the new candidate >> information require an ICE restart. > > nit: "require" Fixed in working copy. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > §12: > >> 12. Unilateral Use of Trickle ICE (Half Trickle) > > I find the use of the word "Unilateral" here to be confusing: the offering party > indicates support, and the answering party takes advantage of that support. I > would suggest using a different term ("Asymmetrical" maybe?); or, even more > simply, just replacing the entire section title with "Half Trickle". Just replacing is good. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > §12: > > The following passage indicates that the offer in a half-trickle situation might > not contain a full generation of candidates: > >> The initial ICE >> description for half trickle would typically contain an end-of- >> candidates indication, although this is not mandatory because if >> trickle support is confirmed then the initiator can choose to trickle >> additional candidates before it conveys an end-of-candidates >> indication. > > But then, two sentences later: > >> Because the initial ICE description contain a full >> generation of candidates... > > ...which seems to contradict that indication. Good catch. I suggest: In half trickle, the initiator conveys the initial ICE description with a usable (but not necessarily full) generation of candidates. This ensures that the ICE description can be processed by a regular ICE responder and is mostly meant for use in cases where support for Trickle ICE cannot be confirmed prior to conveying the initial ICE description. The initial ICE description indicates support for Trickle ICE, so that the responder can respond with something less than a full generation of candidates and then trickle the rest. The initial ICE description for half trickle can contain an end-of-candidates indication, although this is not mandatory because if trickle support is confirmed then the initiator can choose to trickle additional candidates before it conveys an end-of-candidates indication. > (also, nit: "contains" rather than "contain") > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > §15: > >> a=candidate:2 1 UDP 1694498815 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::3 5000 typ srflx >> raddr 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::1 rport 8998 >> a=candidate:2 2 UDP 1694498815 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::3 5001 typ srflx >> raddr 2001:db8:a0b:12f0::1 rport 8998 > > [repeating a comment from draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip] > > Thanks for the IPv6 example; however, I have a *lot* of heartburn with the > selection of an example that demonstrates IPv6 NAT behavior. Since ICE's srflx > behavior is fundamentally tied to IPv4 NATs (and should not be an issue with > IPv6, as NATs are unnecessary), I think it's okay for the srflx examples to go > ahead and show IPv4 addresses. > > I *really* don't want to publish an RFC that demonstrates NATting of IPv6. I feel your pain and would prefer IPv4 addresses here, too. Peter From nobody Wed Apr 4 11:45:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B061D129C5D; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RyDJ3mfpGmur; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C16AE120724; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 09:47:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2707; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1522860452; x=1524070052; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=CVGDyZk8+h7fHipLl8NjZBJdmUDeJOLp3CPEr0rjGj4=; b=I4eahyy6kCdgc+2ssoVWVUnR85LqbwBKhkjiBIjFayh9ZQLsbvBPMCZf QfNpYcO9jfnIu11qw/9loM+vhCL0US4v0o7oFANSACqenXq91RorKNCCj Q/cgXK57jWN9RLHnUMeSYb/dblbl10HQoU47QyiYuY2uisU4A+R4sEC++ w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AWAgCAAMVa/5RdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJNdYFQKAqYXYMDjXGEZIF6C4UDAoRAITYWAQIBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CbCiFIwZ5EAIBCAQKLQQHMhQRAgQOBRSEFWSuH4hCgiWHYoITgQwigmKIH4I?= =?us-ascii?q?kApc+CAKOL4w8j1YCERMBgSQBIwYrgVJwFWQBghiCSI4Gb4xXgRcBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.48,407,1517875200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="93647902" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 04 Apr 2018 16:47:31 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (xch-rtp-001.cisco.com [64.101.220.141]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w34GlUtF022110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 4 Apr 2018 16:47:30 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-004.cisco.com (64.101.220.144) by XCH-RTP-001.cisco.com (64.101.220.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:47:30 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-004.cisco.com ([64.101.220.144]) by XCH-RTP-004.cisco.com ([64.101.220.144]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:47:30 -0400 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: Eric Rescorla CC: Roman Shpount , Ben Campbell , "Adam Roach" , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" , "RTCWeb IETF" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTy2gFmEK6jl7hIUqOkWqvx/vbz6PvhV+AgAAIEACAAAg0m////QaAgAGC0AA= Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 16:47:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2B936029-9DC7-491C-893F-AE6D05723E4B@cisco.com> References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.228.210] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2B9360299DC7491C893FAE6D05723E4Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 11:45:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 16:47:34 -0000 --_000_2B9360299DC7491C893FAE6D05723E4Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the normative dependency from = JSEP to SIP -Ekr I think a big part of the RTCWeb/WebRTC community would strongly object to = JSEP normatively depending on SIP. --_000_2B9360299DC7491C893FAE6D05723E4Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <929464B6EA23234BB72F61487F45C971@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the normative dependency from = JSEP to SIP

-Ekr


I think a big part of the RTCWeb/WebRTC community would str= ongly object to JSEP normatively depending on SIP. 
--_000_2B9360299DC7491C893FAE6D05723E4Bciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Apr 4 11:45:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A5D9129C6D for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:06:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vATPfHzaZ6LJ for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x235.google.com (mail-pl0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41CEB127978 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 59-v6so12212279plc.13 for ; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C6loMDHa8scYgqYof7mziGVsZau/p22LZWGmKOM1gOI=; b=TFTK2+ap0548gFGpjVT+s7j/8rLM+K/7SST/b2+aKn1NbF7Fc+xPV4OYqRPeNYdyhx AEuZbHkauKK+AQ9UjOBFEUv1Dflq7eCrb5J0Jbi0aRWAmQM4DlPg5ns1OCCkdjYQSTPz D0kVA3HgscF7RakPY4z9horgDkDdAS4ceaf+F7lHRC3M+94yAfwiAV4Lo7ZkdSCKbhAS hdukphl83Jyezd2cTac/zgtcRrKVjn+ApngAVAR43bY8XvvvdfE2cSKJnLww+EUczatX 9KcNAInsQ1hjQ6fJ65VGKfKz36ygh3YhXGFLogsnyiuQur6+BqgiKClV8+GlSW2ndaTs FKGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C6loMDHa8scYgqYof7mziGVsZau/p22LZWGmKOM1gOI=; b=PtqQAft1n1hxttnkY+TKv2tv+cDUVqN4OAVAVVrXXdy+JIVMGhmEZo6hJ8m6I553P2 wK+ltWzqZQDCmrSqvaM7a3NIkifRGxAvSsldTihgH4bEq492xc64r9kXZ+DwL5a+Lbif Xp4ll4bcgrW8rKKFfazL/6yI2u0zqbuYFQpBJuPuCrhdOMjHqZrj9K1GDvG4dRhmBZGZ 5Iwid9d+5RtNm17Li7l+r8MDp+mWtQySbW4OFm331JiX6Z8LEaloZvIgiGNpFgEdQ4M9 ovH5zM/I/NGRGj6SK72fMqdqZT4HJ2gEsZNy28mxXP8CAeYRTTKa1wym5SfuWxgiEouc zXsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Gvwkqs3RTtEdsvPoi2lQyCMtxArcORLRfzGavmlOCWDwKbiuWQ FHA+vXPL39q0IE4WnlEur8CTyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48j9yQmvKSfN3T72wPsoZZZHlUi8xtnMgQMXzrCYJhFAZcyswcz4uTlx7OMQsZ89JFcZjE5OQ== X-Received: by 10.99.114.1 with SMTP id n1mr12510209pgc.107.1522861555922; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-f48.google.com (mail-pl0-f48.google.com. [209.85.160.48]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm4209785pfa.125.2018.04.04.10.05.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-f48.google.com with SMTP id c21-v6so11297593plz.10; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7185:: with SMTP id b5-v6mr19348304pll.221.1522861554782; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.185.79 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2B936029-9DC7-491C-893F-AE6D05723E4B@cisco.com> References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2B936029-9DC7-491C-893F-AE6D05723E4B@cisco.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:05:54 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Cc: Eric Rescorla , Ben Campbell , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , "Flemming Andreasen (fandreas)" , RTCWeb IETF , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003d981056908d6c2" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 11:45:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:06:06 -0000 --00000000000003d981056908d6c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the normative dependency from > JSEP to SIP > > > I think a big part of the RTCWeb/WebRTC community would strongly object to > JSEP normatively depending on SIP. > Do you have any issues with dependency on RFC5245 and the portion of it which went into draft-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? Both define SIP procedures in addition to offer/answer. We are kind of dealing with the same thing here. Other drafts, like mmusic-dtls-sdp have SIP consideration sections in them. It did not seem to cause any issues either. As I have mentioned earlier, I think, trickle-ice-sip should internally clearly identify generic offer/answer SDP procedures and SIP specific considerations. Once it is done it would be no different then all the other offer/answer drafts we put together recently. _____________ Roman Shpount --00000000000003d981056908d6c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Cu= llen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I want to do whatever is necessary to remove the normative dependency from = JSEP to SIP

I think a big part of the RTCWeb/WebRTC community would strongl= y object to JSEP normatively depending on SIP.=C2=A0

Do you have any iss= ues with dependency on=20 RFC5245 and the portion of i= t which went into draft-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp? Both define SIP procedures in addition to offer/a= nswer. We are kind of dealing with the same thing here. Other drafts, like = mmusic-dtls-sdp have SIP consideration sections in them. It did not seem to= cause any issues either.

As I ha= ve mentioned earlier, I think,=C2=A0 trickle-ice-sip should internally clea= rly identify generic offer/answer SDP procedures and SIP specific considera= tions. Once it is done it would be no different then all the other offer/an= swer drafts we put together recently.
<= div class=3D"gmail_signature">_____________
Roman Shpount

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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 11:45:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 16:07:47 -0000 On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: > > > > > On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > > > On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > >> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn’t normatively reference ice-sip-SDP > >> draft when it moved to using “usages “ indirections for signaling protocols. > >> > >> > >> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as usage > >> for trickle. > > > > It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of > > draft-ietf-ice-trickle. > > I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I > also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) > > > That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes (thus > small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, trickle-sip to  > refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for these > drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) > > I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we pick, > there is some work that needs to be done and we > should do it. These documents are on the telechat tomorrow. Are we proposing to delay consideration by the IESG while we get this mess sorted out? ;-) Peter From nobody Wed Apr 4 11:45:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A73D126C22; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0pgBW-Ku13g9; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D3F112D775; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w34HN5U0025759 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:23:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6382D4F8-A6C7-47D0-BE19-DAA943570D77"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 12:23:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , mmusic-chairs@ietf.org, "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 11:45:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:23:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6382D4F8-A6C7-47D0-BE19-DAA943570D77 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell > > wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=E2=80=99t normatively reference = ice-sip-SDP >>>> draft when it moved to using =E2=80=9Cusages =E2=80=9C indirections = for signaling protocols. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as = usage >>>> for trickle. >>>=20 >>> It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of >>> draft-ietf-ice-trickle. >>=20 >> I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. = (I >> also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) >>=20 >>=20 >> That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes = (thus >> small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, = trickle-sip to >> refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for these >> drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) >>=20 >> I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we pick, >> there is some work that needs to be done and we >> should do it. >=20 > These documents are on the telechat tomorrow. Are we proposing to = delay > consideration by the IESG while we get this mess sorted out? ;-) Hi Peter, I currently plan to leave it on. We may discuss a way forward on the = telechat. Also, I=E2=80=99d like to get feedback on the rest of the = draft(s) from the other ADs sooner than later. Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_6382D4F8-A6C7-47D0-BE19-DAA943570D77 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrFCfgACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3/VBAAqDvaaL3WVTzh4ooufivb/cH+C7BHR6W3v1FcnQAVsfQR8XT4WysJIm38 Ks7llDVLN3XtybXBrGeTM6VALocI/XuYS2Rqyr5q34WnQhcdJA5RDvKIrV+qBMrU sPFmjX85NzRwJv3zGlXUsjdSjMysrdySqyBqr686g/pLMufUXmgAxoKppyNQWHBs lhSCXjvoJKdDxLvnny34e7hIM2/IQvrA01R1ThZsbg0a3ppSnc1aUbpxtHA41Pq3 EINCTjT4idSMi1MijCCGg29yITaLizAGbZi+gwIG0AeVJcguOYDK0u5XsSkBCD5F QML8MOZri0OjM5ss3vNr9NspcrUYxc3MJcyP1KN7IgAljP258ygTuwksgwcUZqU4 NnG3UguWfxYNDsUUM6vnap6g3oYIQHrk4r6XKEwOKkFjs19Owu0PZc4Ipn0RTmzn 7ZRiR5Qsme9RPZeFwsteiYLtxPtciplvMny0QdlvdSojVEwAK+5Be7T52oovx8tS NzcVOzQZI5/Q10OZoQ0iiWEojvHWQNsbGkSDxiGy+LSbgeBEJos3PbAbFox5b/zd gvNyhKMNIIp/rTT+xrn/GNFGk79vIIbHMJGqOqKIspX9x48jwJO1FSZVFHNeApYV SQkn3/s+i7RWNFckWL/tvE09dC6MGLZbE3nHX8V9IXpx4sn1lZU= =sfbx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6382D4F8-A6C7-47D0-BE19-DAA943570D77-- From nobody Wed Apr 4 13:39:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5AD1241F8; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:39:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sarah Banks To: Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152287434396.24068.13184936471569396212@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 13:39:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 20:39:04 -0000 Reviewer: Sarah Banks Review result: Ready I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. My apologies for the late review. However, I found this document extremely well written, and clear, and concise. Often I'll see docs that call out an issue where something isn't possible, but don't give an example that underscores that point. This document was extremely well rounded. Thanks for that. All in all, it was a good read, and it's ready for publication. From nobody Wed Apr 4 13:46:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5726712DA68 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:46:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dpVXo59k1Mmj for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C58E912DFE0 for ; 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Wed, 04 Apr 2018 13:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l16sm3658335ioc.60.2018.04.04.13.46.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 13:46:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Sarah Banks , ops-dir@ietf.org Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org References: <152287434396.24068.13184936471569396212@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <2c2fbd16-7003-bb3e-be98-13164da1071c@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 14:46:07 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152287434396.24068.13184936471569396212@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 20:46:13 -0000 Hi Sara, Thank you for the feedback and for reviewing this document! Peter On 4/4/18 2:39 PM, Sarah Banks wrote: > Reviewer: Sarah Banks > Review result: Ready > > I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These > comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of > the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included > in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should > treat these comments just like any other last call comments. > > My apologies for the late review. > However, I found this document extremely well written, and clear, and concise. > Often I'll see docs that call out an issue where something isn't possible, but > don't give an example that underscores that point. This document was extremely > well rounded. Thanks for that. All in all, it was a good read, and it's ready > for publication. > > From nobody Wed Apr 4 14:47:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290C3120454; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 14:47:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Suresh Krishnan To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, nohlmeier@mozilla.com, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152287844712.24068.1915096195037926228.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 14:47:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 21:47:27 -0000 Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Even though I am happy to see IPv6 examples, I share Adam's concern about using IPv6 with srflx being seen as an implicit endorsement of IPv6 NATs. From nobody Wed Apr 4 15:14:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9084D126FDC; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Rescorla To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, nohlmeier@mozilla.com, ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152288004656.25892.11562415308033550928.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:14:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's Recuse on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 22:14:06 -0000 Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: Recuse When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- UPDATED: I am recusing as I am an author. As the below are comments, feel free to do whatever with them. Comments in context: https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.net/D3650 I'm a listed author on this document, but I haven't worked on it in quite some time, so this is read with mostly fresh eyes. Important comments: agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate unless it is peer reflexive. IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then re-sorting the check list. IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is already running. What is the rationale for this? Other comments: Generation: All of the candidates conveyed within an ICE session (as defined in [rfc5245bis]). Note that "generation" isn't a 5245 term, so this text could be clearer. ICE Description: Any session-related (as opposed to candidate- related) attributes required to configure an ICE agent. These It might be helpful to say "ICE session" to distinguish from session-level attributes in SDP for instance, the encoding for the Session Description Protocol (SDP) [RFC4566] is defined in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip]. Note that this has the side effect of precluding agressive nomination consider the overall session to be under active negotiation as soon as possible.) As noted in Section 3, in application protocols that use SDP the Why is this a benefit, actually? I see why it is in the offer so that you can parallelize the gathering on both sides, but why here? (rather than as a part of the initial ICE description or a response thereto), it is the responsibility of the using protocol to define methods for associating the indication with one or more specific data I see here you say "using protocol" as opposed to "application" o A signaling protocol SHOULD provide a way for parties to advertise and discover support for Trickle ICE before an ICE session begins And here you use "signaling protocol" rather than "using protocl" To achieve this, when trickling candidates, agents MUST respect the order of components as reflected by their component IDs; that is, I'm surprised to see a MUST paired with "While not crucial" From nobody Wed Apr 4 15:17:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B7212D86C for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 15:17:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:16:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org References: <152288004656.25892.11562415308033550928.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 16:16:54 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152288004656.25892.11562415308033550928.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's Recuse on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 22:17:03 -0000 The intent is to address your comments in -19, which will be submitted as soon as the responsible AD tells me to. On 4/4/18 4:14 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: Recuse > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > UPDATED: I am recusing as I am an author. As the below are comments, > feel free to do whatever with them. > > Comments in context: https://mozphab-ietf.devsvcdev.mozaws.net/D3650 > > I'm a listed author on this document, but I haven't worked on it in quite > some time, so this is read with mostly fresh eyes. > > Important comments: > agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate > unless it is peer reflexive. > > IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you > follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the > connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? > > Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx > candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. > > maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per > [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. > > IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? > This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. > > new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then > re-sorting the check list. > IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is > already running. What is the rationale for this? > > Other comments: > > Generation: All of the candidates conveyed within an ICE session (as > defined in [rfc5245bis]). > > Note that "generation" isn't a 5245 term, so this text could be clearer. > > ICE Description: Any session-related (as opposed to candidate- > related) attributes required to configure an ICE agent. These > > It might be helpful to say "ICE session" to distinguish from session-level > attributes in SDP > > for instance, the encoding for the Session Description Protocol (SDP) > [RFC4566] is defined in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip]. > > Note that this has the side effect of precluding agressive nomination > > consider the overall session to be under active negotiation as soon > as possible.) > As noted in Section 3, in application protocols that use SDP the > > Why is this a benefit, actually? I see why it is in the offer so that you can > parallelize the gathering on both sides, but why here? > > (rather than as a part of the initial ICE description or a response > thereto), it is the responsibility of the using protocol to define > methods for associating the indication with one or more specific data > > I see here you say "using protocol" as opposed to "application" > > o A signaling protocol SHOULD provide a way for parties to advertise > and discover support for Trickle ICE before an ICE session begins > > And here you use "signaling protocol" rather than "using protocl" > > To achieve this, when trickling candidates, agents MUST respect the > order of components as reflected by their component IDs; that is, > > I'm surprised to see a MUST paired with "While not crucial" > > From nobody Wed Apr 4 15:18:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 516CC12D86C for ; 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Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p19sm3947516iod.0.2018.04.04.15.18.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 15:18:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Suresh Krishnan , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org References: <152287844712.24068.1915096195037926228.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <5cb5f871-c079-a5fb-844f-f2f26d856b13@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 16:18:45 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152287844712.24068.1915096195037926228.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 22:18:52 -0000 On 4/4/18 3:47 PM, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Even though I am happy to see IPv6 examples, I share Adam's concern about using > IPv6 with srflx being seen as an implicit endorsement of IPv6 NATs. Already fixed in our working copy :-) https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/commit/bbf2b2eaac900c06cbd08005be73bd576041b007#diff-f7ced034e08b14404c7832d8f5f19567 Peter From nobody Wed Apr 4 17:17:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3531242F7; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:17:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OrB5GxW7pXCP; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu [18.9.25.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 983BE129C6C; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1209190c-2b1ff70000004399-a4-5ac56b324b8b Received: from mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.35]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id BE.98.17305.23B65CA5; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 20:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH-1.MIT.EDU [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id w350HqKK022041; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 20:17:53 -0400 Received: from mit.edu (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w350HlkB017008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 4 Apr 2018 20:17:50 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 19:17:47 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG , Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180405001747.GG80088@mit.edu> References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <1e31eef8-da5c-8d19-0caa-4f8f9b82d407@mozilla.com> <895a5f8f-1eaf-378c-0c04-fe6ecd498b3a@mozilla.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <895a5f8f-1eaf-378c-0c04-fe6ecd498b3a@mozilla.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02Sb0gTYRzHfe725zZ38Xgqe5zNaPZKnWUUHBb9JRjhC6k3NWJ1udMttyl3 U9RM9kKjJszFxHJGuDKmNiIUSgLTphLKEG3YH0jsjxWuMigKFqndbai9+/J8nu/n+cOPwCmf VENYHU6WczA2nUwpoRSZufrdlRPGXauP9PRM5xigY7EWQPd+mZbTs36fjP49c4m+8fcaTr+8 5QP0p74pcIgw/Pk1JzP09MQxg2fULTX4PlzGSyVG5X4za7PWstzOA+eUlpWxm/Lqt6l13mAA c4FnhBsoCAT3oNbBSYkbKAkK3sHQ545vUhFQ8AFAkVlnEkQwNNjfgolAAnegrqUXuJhlQna1 RhM5A+aj1+HhhAmHUQzNj3pkIkiHJtQz605YSViAmid/ypLWjxgamn4vT4I0NNm5KBEzDvPQ q9Ul4TRCyNkouJq4qgIeRLGVQOKwTJiLhj1huRdA/39t/39t/2a7G+D9QGu2N+jtjNXGs2V6 voxxOFhOX1RotzoLWXPNAEj8fZZqCES+Hg8DSACdiryyMm6kpEwtX28PgywC02WSiwvC0pbz VeZ6C8NbznI1NpYPA0TgugzycemEkSLNTH0Dy1Wto2xColOTt0eGjRSsYJxsJctWs9w63UoQ OkSeuiAU0zi2gq0rt9qcmxgjFKJcJciPintIvpqx89aKJJ8C2zVq8qpVAFAElhrHRlecJVQ5 0hgDauEp6aRXrKuESdtoxwQxJoi9zLgodjKbSOMCTduC5Xnqw9PaUKjd7u4KtbVTA56h5RMz JU/PcPFISlrTj2Bb5z47P19FYsre0ZyoPHDdVPy8WHN6+f7CWH78u6lprzbn3ZrbNTjinIND JvrYvaJgR/eRVMqT0hd4crH8TUpdqi3WYDvZHIp1x++WrC32lWkbC3hP9CFfq5PwFqYoD+d4 5h9E9+rXJgMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 00:17:57 -0000 On Wed, Apr 04, 2018 at 10:57:59AM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > Specifically, I suggest the following revised text for Section 8.1: > > ### > > 8.1. Pairing Newly Learned Candidates and Updating Check Lists > > Forming candidate pairs works as described in the ICE specification > [rfc5245bis]. However, adding the new pair to a check list happens > according to the following rules: > > 1. If the new pair's local candidate is server reflexive, the agent > MUST replace the candidate with its base before completing the > redundancy check in step 2. > > 2. The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in > Section 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a I wonder if "old" is ambiguous here. -Benjamin > state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for > which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity > checks have already yielded a definitive result). > > 3. If after the foregoing redundancy test the check list where the > pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of > candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent > SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the > new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard > the new pair. > > 4. Otherwise, add the new pair to the check list. > > ### > > Peter > From nobody Wed Apr 4 17:26:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E7912D87B for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gsH-2jXdeb9R for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4818512D87F for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id e79so28491703ioi.7 for ; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=w5O2yX4OEgUr1lhoTtWpvjGdzU3t9KnUzT24+j5BZzE=; b=AJNtbEcc6XEj1YKJQTXU+PgBKryMcp3HfPZ30c7KJi+EN5xAa7SAq6VunAsXLQU+EY yXMRuSr4yjQ+tA/UPUm+7ObVhB3NcNr1hPsjj2NMPjNSE0RS/xV/oma8B3loSvrrtLr0 xW1cTP0In7RAlVt+rgyUmAtipGOqestW/tsSQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=w5O2yX4OEgUr1lhoTtWpvjGdzU3t9KnUzT24+j5BZzE=; b=pe0i2MQuu8bjP3hFUn+hsv/uzhYuYNBBjEYgncehgL25aIxW2wJ+age6U5Qk4223vY WNjyWTIyD+pnf5sMV7QZTnTi8SeSa1WWKduw6Zh9iK1R9hplRDDdb0zjRNSuVeraRwGp 3HFIZZEwGD8bSdBBN8gl8IwBdrXTYDrgu/bGztXbBLHe/ZNoBSoOY/LMYhlViPoYvBqv rRHMXfgTuD4QEoqE131M/RgftCvIxBGKBioFZW12uI23Gmdaucs/hEboQSTxJ9x3oXlq meuLlQMSAMYTcBsrqzGXuCjWnrnsDcEPSIWN399Km1IGvdES7D3AaxIUIbx0NIxPNNxr bhvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tB5qxCwWKHSOJ7n+E7ZKP6KNWs2YPZzPn7C1Q5heLyChRcR2LrW SruInN4EpJnGU+oCSgAtoGGHe8A5SnA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/rMgbq09YXMeyFuMxNcNFDMN/C0J8iFD8c2n7B68C/JJjnL4IteqPI0CbNUnczq5MXe+I05A== X-Received: by 10.107.135.82 with SMTP id j79mr18320523iod.14.1522887982450; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.6] ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n142-v6sm3109100itn.38.2018.04.04.17.26.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15D100) In-Reply-To: <20180405001747.GG80088@mit.edu> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 18:26:20 -0600 Cc: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG , Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E40DB4@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <1e31eef8-da5c-8d19-0caa-4f8f9b82d407@mozilla.com> <895a5f8f-1eaf-378c-0c04-fe6ecd498b3a@mozilla.com> <20180405001747.GG80088@mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 00:26:26 -0000 Right, =E2=80=9Cexisting pair=E2=80=9D would be better. Sent from mobile, might be terse=20 > On Apr 4, 2018, at 6:17 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 >> On Wed, Apr 04, 2018 at 10:57:59AM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>=20 >> Specifically, I suggest the following revised text for Section 8.1: >>=20 >> ### >>=20 >> 8.1. Pairing Newly Learned Candidates and Updating Check Lists >>=20 >> Forming candidate pairs works as described in the ICE specification >> [rfc5245bis]. However, adding the new pair to a check list happens >> according to the following rules: >>=20 >> 1. If the new pair's local candidate is server reflexive, the agent >> MUST replace the candidate with its base before completing the >> redundancy check in step 2. >>=20 >> 2. The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in >> Section 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a >=20 > I wonder if "old" is ambiguous here. >=20 > -Benjamin >=20 >> state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for >> which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity >> checks have already yielded a definitive result). >>=20 >> 3. If after the foregoing redundancy test the check list where the >> pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of >> candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent >> SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the >> new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard >> the new pair. >>=20 >> 4. Otherwise, add the new pair to the check list. >>=20 >> ### >>=20 >> Peter >>=20 From nobody Wed Apr 4 20:00:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6E312783A; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 20:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=kaloom.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NzJ_LZzLRuxd; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 20:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CAN01-QB1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr660139.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.66.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 784CD127369; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <5DE0A53F5DB60748A7A52C155C536055@CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: kaloom.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 39165720-1e1f-4930-14bc-08d59aa1697f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Apr 2018 03:00:39.1891 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 47d58e26-f796-48e8-ac40-1c365c204513 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: YQXPR0101MB1511 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 03:00:44 -0000 > On Apr 4, 2018, at 6:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote= : >=20 > On 4/4/18 3:47 PM, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >> Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Even though I am happy to see IPv6 examples, I share Adam's concern abou= t using >> IPv6 with srflx being seen as an implicit endorsement of IPv6 NATs. >=20 > Already fixed in our working copy :-) >=20 > https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/commit/bbf2b2eaac900c06cbd08005be73bd57= 6041b007#diff-f7ced034e08b14404c7832d8f5f19567 Thanks Peter.=20 Regards Suresh From nobody Thu Apr 5 10:29:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5701271DF; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 10:29:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152294934091.25921.10530377448316012094@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 10:29:00 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 17:29:01 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol Authors : Emil Ivov Eric Rescorla Justin Uberti Peter Saint-Andre Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2018-04-05 Abstract: This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still gathering candidates, by incrementally "trickling" candidates over time. This method can considerably accelerate the process of establishing a communication session. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Apr 5 10:31:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AED12DA48 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iSCXaeKnqtdi for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22c.google.com (mail-io0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B23C7124D6C for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152294934091.25921.10530377448316012094@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 17:31:42 -0000 This version addresses IESG feedback. On 4/5/18 11:29 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. > > Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol > Authors : Emil Ivov > Eric Rescorla > Justin Uberti > Peter Saint-Andre > Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt > Pages : 32 > Date : 2018-04-05 > > Abstract: > This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables > ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still > gathering candidates, by incrementally "trickling" candidates over > time. This method can considerably accelerate the process of > establishing a communication session. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > From nobody Thu Apr 5 11:59:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E01126BFD for ; 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Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:58:44 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt Thread-Index: AQHTzQOfCKJgJePi7US1u8Loo3rkkKPyTFeAgAA2enA= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 18:58:44 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4A6BD@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <152294934091.25921.10530377448316012094@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.162] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7ui5P0bEog9472hbfLtRaPFt5itGB yWPJkp9MHn0HulgDmKK4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Ms4dO8xYsEeyYuuy88wNjM+Fuxg5OSQETCQ+ fZvF2MXIxSEkcIRRYu7Hx0wQzmJGiT8TzzB3MXJwsAlYSHT/0wZpEBHwkpi55z4TiC0sYCOx 58xnZoi4rcSxjlNMELaVxLzT91hAbBYBFYl1DTvB4rwCvhJ/lm1kBLGFBCol9jXMYgWxOQXs JRrf/QSzGQXEJL6fWgNWzywgLnHryXwmiEMFJJbsOc8MYYtKvHz8jxXCVpJ4+n8JVL2OxILd n9ggbG2JZQtfM0PsFZQ4OfMJywRGkVlIxs5C0jILScssJC0LGFlWMYoWpxYX56YbGeulFmUm Fxfn5+nlpZZsYgRGw8Etv3V3MK5+7XiIUYCDUYmH91f6sSgh1sSy4srcQ4wSHMxKIrzOYUAh 3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjNIcLErivHqr9kQJCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGJefZL58PjA2 8XzW0aNSUidF8g/JV8/L0Ngm1FvKnyL79/L3gBV7eVqXfNAx7n0bl/ZoF9PE+p599e4Knuzq eVcZdkx4u3KVpJ3ghHabP1L/4xW/8iyZKbTfYIpU9+nOs69f7Zp6y0z9BefE4ijhzye1Hla0 XtdPf3jn+5LVEhmTzhwMqMt+UaXEUpyRaKjFXFScCABniXDVggIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 18:59:29 -0000 Hi, Still a few questions: The text in section 7.1 says: "With regard to pruning of duplicate candidate pairs, a Trickle ICE agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate unless it is peer reflexive." Wasn't there a question on the "unless it is peer reflexive" part? --- The text in section 8.1 says: "2. The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in Section 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity checks have already yielded a definitive result)." I realized that Section 5.1.3 of 5245bis does not talk about eliminating of= pairs - it only talks about eliminating of redundant candidates. So, shoul= dn't the eliminating of pairs be covered in section 7.1? Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre Sent: 05 April 2018 19:32 To: ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt This version addresses IESG feedback. On 4/5/18 11:29 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment W= G of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candid= ates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol > Authors : Emil Ivov > Eric Rescorla > Justin Uberti > Peter Saint-Andre > Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt > Pages : 32 > Date : 2018-04-05 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables > ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still > gathering candidates, by incrementally "trickling" candidates over > time. This method can considerably accelerate the process of > establishing a communication session. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ice-trickle-19 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet= f.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >=20 _______________________________________________ Ice mailing list Ice@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Thu Apr 5 13:08:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB82012D77B for ; 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Thu, 05 Apr 2018 13:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s142-v6sm4662374itb.4.2018.04.05.13.08.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Apr 2018 13:08:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" References: <152294934091.25921.10530377448316012094@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4A6BD@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <22036e60-ec76-9454-ad37-cd150aa1c151@mozilla.com> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:08:38 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4A6BD@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 20:08:43 -0000 On 4/5/18 12:58 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > Still a few questions: Thanks for the continued review. > The text in section 7.1 says: > > "With regard to pruning of duplicate candidate pairs, a Trickle ICE > agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate > unless it is peer reflexive." > > Wasn't there a question on the "unless it is peer reflexive" part? Ah, I thought I had removed that. It was in two places, and I missed this one. > --- > > The text in section 8.1 says: > > "2. The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in > Section 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a > state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for > which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity > checks have already yielded a definitive result)." > > I realized that Section 5.1.3 of 5245bis does not talk about eliminating of pairs - it only talks about eliminating of redundant candidates. So, shouldn't the eliminating of pairs be covered in section 7.1? IMHO §8.1 (of draft-ietf-ice-trickle) is the right place for this text, because it's about how to handle new candidates/pairs. But we need to clear up the distinction between candidates and pairs in §8 and §8.1. I'll look at this more closely and post to the list again. Peter From nobody Thu Apr 5 20:17:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E044C12E87D for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:17:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocmk29Vo_mE6 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDC0B12E87C for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:17:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1522984658; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=H++BS/xGTNMLvfrk7lnAuem8yb8q++uRYhULnPKVAEY=; b=RHnmShA/QMteolcu9Tn1fwPPQA55AsYum4UsuIkiHuceHHmkTUw2vz9lth7XIvtZ 3JgquDeCzNPaPoU00sSQ3Y1Fmgi+JWHN5ajaxg6sTMMIxkYgV1jwBAS8/agqaT1I GL9v/MLtrLYGSQqGopuvfEw1l9HOSulsutPq6WvWNe0=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-a99ff70000005e22-50-5ac6e6d2abca Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.24]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F5.9D.24098.2D6E6CA5; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:17:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.115]) by ESESSHC002.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:17:38 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre CC: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt Thread-Index: AQHTzQOfCKJgJePi7US1u8Loo3rkkKPyTFeAgAA2enD///VlAIAAmWLp Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 03:17:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4D6CCAB5-BD6C-469E-AEAA-4887554E0E23@ericsson.com> References: <152294934091.25921.10530377448316012094@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4A6BD@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se>, <22036e60-ec76-9454-ad37-cd150aa1c151@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <22036e60-ec76-9454-ad37-cd150aa1c151@mozilla.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D6CCAB5BD6C469EAEAA4887554E0E23ericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbFdQvfSs2NRBv8vmFl8u1Br8WzlKUYH Jo8lS34yefQd6GINYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyvg45RB7wR2Dik87f7M3MK7T7GLk5JAQMJFo vHGTqYuRi0NI4AijxJsdP1ghnMWMEq8ONLJ0MXJwsAlYSHT/0wZpEBHQlrh5aC9YmFlAUeLl XjUQU1jARuL5z0KICluJYx2nmCBsN4nHDzvYQWwWARWJb9Pngdm8AvYSfUt3Q236wCjx8f1T RpA5nECJ1e9NQWoYBcQkvp9aAzaHWUBc4taT+UwQJwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK0RNssTczVuY IeYLSpyc+YRlAqPwLCTts5CUzUJSBhHXk7gxdQobhK0tsWzha2YIW1dixr9DLMjiCxjZVzGK FqcWJ+WmGxnppRZlJhcX5+fp5aWWbGIERs7BLb8NdjC+fO54iFGAg1GJh/fXw2NRQqyJZcWV uYcYJTiYlUR4ncOAQrwpiZVVqUX58UWlOanFhxilOViUxHkt/DZHCQmkJ5akZqemFqQWwWSZ ODilGhjtM0VV14TdelDstmRq9eaLLstSv83XzBe6Vy/sKDp9wnO7xaHKHSJRk5QX7DKs3J+s c2yeGHPHNllz5d1vfbs5E3+GBOkfWvTgttt0Z/VlTnGZ0v2zZ36vaxfvfsrFExD/6HiYXzKH SXbmdfXk8P2hR59ctGbQvrFml16msPHF6LVXrZfwSSqxFGckGmoxFxUnAgAkSf+XmAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-19.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 03:17:43 -0000 --_000_4D6CCAB5BD6C469EAEAA4887554E0E23ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. If the procedures in section 7 only happens when the check lists are initia= lly created, maybe that needs to be more explicit. Also, regarding the pruning text, if you remove the text about peer reflexi= ve I guess you could simply reference 5245bis for the pruning procedure - n= o need to copy/paste the procedure text. Regards, Christer Sent from my iPhone On 5 Apr 2018, at 23.08, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: On 4/5/18 12:58 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: Hi, Still a few questions: Thanks for the continued review. The text in section 7.1 says: "With regard to pruning of duplicate candidate pairs, a Trickle ICE agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate unless it is peer reflexive." Wasn't there a question on the "unless it is peer reflexive" part? Ah, I thought I had removed that. It was in two places, and I missed this one. --- The text in section 8.1 says: "2. The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in Section 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity checks have already yielded a definitive result)." I realized that Section 5.1.3 of 5245bis does not talk about eliminating of= pairs - it only talks about eliminating of redundant candidates. So, shoul= dn't the eliminating of pairs be covered in section 7.1? IMHO =A78.1 (of draft-ietf-ice-trickle) is the right place for this text, because it's about how to handle new candidates/pairs. But we need to clear up the distinction between candidates and pairs in =A78 and =A78.1. I'll look at this more closely and post to the list again. Peter --_000_4D6CCAB5BD6C469EAEAA4887554E0E23ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi.

If the procedures in section 7 only happens when the check lists are i= nitially created, maybe that needs to be more explicit.

Also, regarding the pruning text, if you remove the text about peer re= flexive I guess you could simply reference 5245bis for the pruning procedur= e - no need to copy/paste the procedure text.

Regards,

Christer

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Apr 2018, at 23.08, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

On 4/5/18 12:58 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
Hi,

Still a few questions:

Thanks for the continued review.

The text in section 7.1 says:

  "With regard to pruning of= duplicate candidate pairs, a Trickle ICE
  agent SHOULD follow a policy of= keeping the higher priority candidate
  unless it is peer reflexive.&qu= ot;

Wasn't there a question on the "unless= it is peer reflexive" part?

Ah, I thought I had removed that. It was in two places, and I missed<= /span>
this one.

---

The text in section 8.1 says:

     "2. &nbs= p;The agent eliminates redundant pairs by following the rules in
      Section= 5.1.3 of [rfc5245bis], but only if the old pair has a
      state o= f Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for
      which c= onnectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity
      checks = have already yielded a definitive result)."

I realized that Section 5.1.3 of 5245bis do= es not talk about eliminating of pairs - it only talks about eliminating of= redundant candidates. So, shouldn't the eliminating of pairs be covered in= section 7.1?

IMHO =A78.1 (of draft-ietf-ice-trickle) is the right place for this t= ext,
because it's about how to handle new candidates/pairs. But we need to=
clear up the distinction between candidates and pairs in =A78 and =A7= 8.1.
I'll look at this more closely and post to the list again.

Peter

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Fri, 06 Apr 2018 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 129-v6sm6377350itk.20.2018.04.06.09.56.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Apr 2018 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org, Nils Ohlmeier , ice-chairs@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 10:56:14 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 16:56:20 -0000 A follow-up on peer reflexive candidates... On 4/2/18 6:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 4/2/18 4:14 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: No Objection >> Important comments: >> agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate >> unless it is peer reflexive. >> >> IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you >> follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the >> connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? > > Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. > >> Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx >> candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. > > This text was in the spec when I joined the author team. I am not sure > of the rationale. The only difference with Trickle ICE is handling > candidate pairs that come in later. Section 13 notes that it's possible > for a server reflexive candidate to be perceived as peer reflexive if > the STUN connectivity check arrives before signaling of the trickled > candidate, however it also notes that this "does not require any change > in processing". See also below. > >> maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per >> [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. >> >> IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? >> This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. > > Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check > would indeed make more sense. > >> new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then >> re-sorting the check list. >> IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is >> already running. What is the rationale for this? > > Good point. This is the same issue with prflx in another guise. I'm not > sure of the rationale. The only thing I can come up with is that we're > trying to work around the fact that some server reflexive candidates > could be perceived initially as peer reflexive. Throwing out the earlier > "peer reflexive" candidate in favor of the later candidate (which might > be server reflexive) might be a workaround. > > I'll ask Emil to clarify this for us. Emil and I synced up just now. Right after IETF 95, Taylor Brandstetter raised an issue about the handling of peer reflexive candidates during de-duplication, quoted here for convenience from the mail archive (see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00304.html): ### It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply because a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate as peer reflexive while the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have different ideas of which candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nomination. So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. ### Looking back at the text we recently removed in -19, I'm not convinced that we ever captured Taylor's feedback properly. I will look into it more carefully later today or over the weekend and propose a further text adjustment. Peter From nobody Sun Apr 8 12:58:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA17B12D7ED for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 12:58:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 94F_G85mq_s8 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 12:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F48B12D7EF for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1523217482; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ACkKUGJ3JPw2XEWPRS0p5L8GgC4OqxLCx+1ujf2sZM0=; b=c9MVPiPYA0ts7HvNE9TByxcJ0ucE6A+gKD6vVrRpYcvBd2+KXQfBTLO/EMVVPFxR 1DZMWh9nlOSLvJ4BEtg9uQusG2c0/mzAjA/JiRof7KLG41u3aqSkaIMnOF8BJLMx w5ctoU/Fh4VUC6x09jzTWtCi8mN/xBsuq7Srb6QiDNI=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-e39ff70000005d56-4c-5aca744a1ff7 Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.33]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F4.8D.23894.A447ACA5; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 21:58:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.115]) by ESESSHC005.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 21:58:01 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , "The IESG" CC: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTytABZKU7ELteOU2BBEv5KGPpgKPuCqQAgAXOjQCAA3bpgA== Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 19:58:01 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4F88F@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.163] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7oq5XyakogxU3FSxevWpltFjx+hy7 xcVZk9ksvl2otZjxZyKzxfV5kxktnq08xejA7rFkyU8mj74DXawekx+3MQcwR3HZpKTmZJal FunbJXBlTPv8kLXgh0LF3iPr2BoYb0h1MXJySAiYSKyb8Ympi5GLQ0jgCKPEtrmToZzFjBJL 9z0Gcjg42AQsJLr/aYOYIgLpEnva2EFKmAX2MUpc3zSDEWSQsECcxITPi8FsEYF4iRlNJ6Fs J4ktnYtZQWwWARWJhmNHwGxeAV+Jf3ffs0Ls2s4ocbhlPztIglPAXqLxxhswm1FATOL7qTVM IDazgLjErSfzmSCuFpBYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T9WCFtJYvm0LewQ9ToSC3Z/YoOwtSWWLXzNDLFY UOLkzCcsExhFZyEZOwtJyywkLbOQtCxgZFnFKFqcWlycm25kpJdalJlcXJyfp5eXWrKJERhj B7f8ttrBePC54yFGAQ5GJR7e7rRTUUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeA95A4V4UxIrq1KL8uOLSnNS iw8xSnOwKInzOqVZRAkJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoYsxa+iMsv4/19QufnnVNhQXpPXktz 3lg2K/RFsxJX/0fH9JL2RQodJ1o4HSZ7Ndj/3rPAQsbmQk3Ahw8by8N+LvNqPyy2VInN8Z5E xU79xT1R93bUhF5rnhEgwx9XvMnaqSw7JFexWlp8M0daxZdHJ90r5DR5eVmuWs7ptpy63CVo +gNli51KLMUZiYZazEXFiQAjst0ErQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 19:58:09 -0000 Hi, >>> Important comments: >>> agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidat= e >>> unless it is peer reflexive. >>> >>> IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you=20 >>>> follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the=20 >>> connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? >>=20 >> Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. >>=20 >>>> Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx=20 >>> candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. >>=20 >> This text was in the spec when I joined the author team. I am not sure=20 >> of the rationale. The only difference with Trickle ICE is handling=20 >> candidate pairs that come in later. Section 13 notes that it's=20 >> possible for a server reflexive candidate to be perceived as peer=20 >> reflexive if the STUN connectivity check arrives before signaling of=20 >> the trickled candidate, however it also notes that this "does not=20 >> require any change in processing". See also below. >>=20 >>> maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per >>> [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. >>> >>> IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? >>> This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. >>=20 >> Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check=20 >> would indeed make more sense. >>=20 >>> new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then >>> re-sorting the check list. >>> IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is=20 >>> already running. What is the rationale for this? >>=20 >> Good point. This is the same issue with prflx in another guise. I'm=20 >> not sure of the rationale. The only thing I can come up with is that=20 >> we're trying to work around the fact that some server reflexive=20 >> candidates could be perceived initially as peer reflexive. Throwing=20 >> out the earlier "peer reflexive" candidate in favor of the later=20 >> candidate (which might be server reflexive) might be a workaround. >>=20 >> I'll ask Emil to clarify this for us. > > Emil and I synced up just now. > > Right after IETF 95, Taylor Brandstetter raised an issue about the handli= ng of peer reflexive candidates=20 > during de-duplication, quoted here for convenience from the mail archive = (see > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00304.html): > > ### > > It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply = because a binding request was received=20 > before the candidate was signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer= reflexive candidate would not be replaced=20 > by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer re= flexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. > > As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair differ= ently, because one endpoint sees the candidate=20 > as peer reflexive while the other sees it as something else. This means t= he endpoints could have different ideas of which=20 > candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result in sub-optimal= selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection=20 > if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nom= ination. > > So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates= are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. > > ### > > Looking back at the text we recently removed in -19, I'm not convinced th= at we ever captured Taylor's feedback properly. I will=20 > look into it more carefully later today or over the weekend and propose a= further text adjustment. Not sure I follow. Is this a binding-request-was-received-before-the-candid= ate-was-signaled case specific to trickle? Are we talking about trickled ca= ndidates? If so, does it below to section 7? In another email I asked for clarificati= on whether section 7 only applies to the initial check list (as section 8 s= eems to cover the case when candidates are later trickled). Regards, Christer From nobody Mon Apr 9 10:59:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38ED11200FC for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HBseZFMvPA3h for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 10:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0585E12D94E for ; 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Mon, 09 Apr 2018 10:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 134-v6sm672273itl.34.2018.04.09.10.58.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Apr 2018 10:58:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4F88F@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <1678fa72-5968-a95a-86fa-936d6f8c445d@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:58:47 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4F88F@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 17:58:58 -0000 On 4/8/18 1:58 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > >>>> Important comments: >>>> agent SHOULD follow a policy of keeping the higher priority candidate >>>> unless it is peer reflexive. >>>> >>>> IMPORTANT: This section is confusing wrt how pruning works. AIUI, you >>>>> follow ordinary 5245 pruning procedures at the beginning of the >>>> connection for whatever candidates you have. Is that incorrect? >>> >>> Right, there's no reason to override normal pruning procedures. >>> >>>>> Also, why are you proposing prioritizing other candidates over prflx >>>> candidates? That's not the procedure in 5245. >>> >>> This text was in the spec when I joined the author team. I am not sure >>> of the rationale. The only difference with Trickle ICE is handling >>> candidate pairs that come in later. Section 13 notes that it's >>> possible for a server reflexive candidate to be perceived as peer >>> reflexive if the STUN connectivity check arrives before signaling of >>> the trickled candidate, however it also notes that this "does not >>> require any change in processing". See also below. >>> >>>> maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per >>>> [rfc5245bis]), the new pair is discarded. >>>> >>>> IMPORTANT: Why are you discarding before you check for redundancy? >>>> This seems like it evicts the wrong pair. >>> >>> Hmm, it could. Checking the max-pair rule after the redundancy check >>> would indeed make more sense. >>> >>>> new candidate to the priority of the pre-existing candidate and then >>>> re-sorting the check list. >>>> IMPORTANT: This seems to slow down checks if the existing check is >>>> already running. What is the rationale for this? >>> >>> Good point. This is the same issue with prflx in another guise. I'm >>> not sure of the rationale. The only thing I can come up with is that >>> we're trying to work around the fact that some server reflexive >>> candidates could be perceived initially as peer reflexive. Throwing >>> out the earlier "peer reflexive" candidate in favor of the later >>> candidate (which might be server reflexive) might be a workaround. >>> >>> I'll ask Emil to clarify this for us. >> >> Emil and I synced up just now. >> >> Right after IETF 95, Taylor Brandstetter raised an issue about the handling of peer reflexive candidates >> during de-duplication, quoted here for convenience from the mail archive (see >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00304.html): >> >> ### >> >> It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply because a binding request was received >> before the candidate was signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be replaced >> by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. >> >> As a result, the endpoints will prioritize the same candidate pair differently, because one endpoint sees the candidate >> as peer reflexive while the other sees it as something else. This means the endpoints could have different ideas of which >> candidate pair is the highest priority, which could result in sub-optimal selection of a candidate pair, or asymmetric selection >> if the controlling agent is an RFC 5245 endpoint that uses aggressive nomination. >> >> So, I suggest a minor modification to the rule: peer reflexive candidates are always replaced by other types of candidates, regardless of priority. >> >> ### >> >> Looking back at the text we recently removed in -19, I'm not convinced that we ever captured Taylor's feedback properly. I will >> look into it more carefully later today or over the weekend and propose a further text adjustment. > > Not sure I follow. Is this a binding-request-was-received-before-the-candidate-was-signaled case specific to trickle? Are we talking about trickled candidates? My reading of Taylor's original email is that this is about receiving duplicate candidates through the trickling process: At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the higher priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a potential issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive candidates. And specifically about receiving a binding request before receiving any signaling of the candidate: It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created simply because a binding request was received before the candidate was signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive candidate would not be replaced by the server reflexive candidate when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is guaranteed to have a higher priority. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00304.html > If so, does it below to section 7? In another email I asked for clarification whether section 7 only applies to the initial check list (as section 8 seems to cover the case when candidates are later trickled). Yes, I read all of your email messages. :-) I agree that the exact roles of Section 7 and Section are slightly murky, and will propose better text today. Peter From nobody Mon Apr 9 11:22:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB6112D778 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h1gEWbYNHqav for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3E33129C51 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1523298143; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=PueOwNVuzPygqUIZM5xjMThNZYs/94CjcZMIfvLIC24=; b=REoecG9gr9yGAHWPpyyEI1dW7AS0bY2zN5Yjvrv2H5WnfL+fjn3YTdvPaDugG/eq MRnH2P/0SGP+ZMBBvCIP89wu6HF5YVRE4ZL3JJDl74lGQHwqmMCXLsPdthgTf7hm aa/GTDH8bhoACBAQ1Rt3h3AUKUPfIFfPfXXwDxDQdBg=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-e21ff70000005d56-26-5acbaf5f1d5d Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.84]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 65.B8.23894.F5FABCA5; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.115]) by ESESSHC022.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:22:23 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre , Eric Rescorla , "The IESG" CC: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTytABZKU7ELteOU2BBEv5KGPpgKPuCqQAgAXOjQCAA3bpgIABUY+AgAAkRtA= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:22:22 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E51C4E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4F88F@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <1678fa72-5968-a95a-86fa-936d6f8c445d@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <1678fa72-5968-a95a-86fa-936d6f8c445d@mozilla.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.166] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7iG78+tNRBpMfaFi8etXKaLHi9Tl2 i4uzJrNZfLtQazHjz0Rmi+vzJjNaPFt5itGB3WPJkp9MHn0Hulg9Jj9uYw5gjuKySUnNySxL LdK3S+DK6Ju8ir1gnnjFoWe/mRoYL4h1MXJySAiYSJza+Yali5GLQ0jgCKPEw1WXoJzFjBLH 715g62Lk4GATsJDo/qcNYooIpEvsaWMHKWEW2McocX3TDEaQQcICcRITPi8Gs0UE4iVmNJ2E sv0kGi9/ZgGxWQRUJP7t2gIW5xXwlbi04h0bxK4NTBIbz08AK+IUsJc49fgXK4jNKCAm8f3U GiYQm1lAXOLWk/lMEFcLSCzZc54ZwhaVePn4HyuErSRx9PQlVpBDmQU0Jdbv0odoVZSY0v2Q HWKvoMTJmU9YJjCKzkIydRZCxywkHbOQdCxgZFnFKFqcWlycm25kpJdalJlcXJyfp5eXWrKJ ERhfB7f8ttrBePC54yFGAQ5GJR5ejlmno4RYE8uKK3MPMUpwMCuJ8B5cDBTiTUmsrEotyo8v Ks1JLT7EKM3BoiTO65RmESUkkJ5YkpqdmlqQWgSTZeLglGpgjJ401XtKm5H0weW3vwYqvz9n uTb4JeOyQ4//vlnJUdTNevDHzQevXq2YkzXpUsJaxf6OnSXC/xOmS0vuTBB6csNYx+zZzN7D 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+Tr0nPEY5k5MVKDXqtYYWNEAyVTTJGqeWO0UbouB1iahghhqpxNsZzOGjAWZdqjjcHsVa2NQ== X-Received: by 10.107.139.70 with SMTP id n67mr872035iod.109.1523314347104; Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 199-v6sm228724itl.26.2018.04.09.15.52.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Apr 2018 15:52:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Christer Holmberg , Eric Rescorla , The IESG Cc: Nils Ohlmeier , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ice-trickle@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" References: <152270727955.17756.6220965046370005057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E4F88F@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <1678fa72-5968-a95a-86fa-936d6f8c445d@mozilla.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E51C4E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= 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Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:52:24 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E51C4E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-ice-trickle-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 22:52:31 -0000 On 4/9/18 12:22 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > ... > >>>> Looking back at the text we recently removed in -19, I'm not >>>> convinced that we ever captured Taylor's feedback properly. I will look into it more carefully later today or over the weekend and propose a further text adjustment. >>> >>> Not sure I follow. Is this a binding-request-was-received-before-the-candidate-was-signaled case specific to trickle? Are we talking about trickled candidates? >> >> My reading of Taylor's original email is that this is about receiving duplicate candidates through the trickling process: >> >> At IETF 95, the decision was made to choose the candidate with the >> higher priority if duplicate candidates are received (see: >> https://github.com/ice-wg/trickle/issues/6). However, I see a >> potential issue with this, specifically regarding peer reflexive >> candidates. >> >> And specifically about receiving a binding request before receiving any signaling of the candidate: >> >> It's possible for a remote peer reflexive candidate to be created >> simply because a binding request was received before the candidate >> was signaled. Then, according to this rule, the peer reflexive >> candidate would not be replaced by the server reflexive candidate >> when it's signaled, because the peer reflexive candidate is >> guaranteed to have a higher priority. >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ice/current/msg00304.html > > I just try to figure out how it is specific to trickle, and/or why normal 5245bis procedures don't apply. > >>> If so, does it below to section 7? In another email I asked for clarification whether section 7 only applies to >>> the initial check list (as section 8 seems to cover the case when candidates are later trickled). >> >> Yes, I read all of your email messages. :-) >> >> I agree that the exact roles of Section 7 and Section are slightly murky, and will propose better text today. > > My suggestion would be to place sections 7.1 and 7.3 into a separate main section, and call it "Forming Initial Check List", or something like that. Sections 7.2 and 7.4 would then be part of a "Performing Connectivity Checks" section. Yes, I've made a bunch of changes like that. I'll publish -20 shortly (whose diff appears larger than it really is because I've also renamed some sections, made some sections no longer sub-sections, etc.). Peter From nobody Mon Apr 9 16:42:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietf.org Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C601243F6; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:42:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ice@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 16:42:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:42:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol Authors : Emil Ivov Eric Rescorla Justin Uberti Peter Saint-Andre Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt Pages : 33 Date : 2018-04-09 Abstract: This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still gathering candidates, by incrementally exchanging candidates over time instead of all at once. This method can considerably accelerate the process of establishing a communication session. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Apr 9 16:43:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047861243F6 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:43:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g6AwgwwXpP5L for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A3571200C1 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:43:31 -0000 Some further edits along the lines discussed on list... On 4/9/18 5:42 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. > > Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol > Authors : Emil Ivov > Eric Rescorla > Justin Uberti > Peter Saint-Andre > Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt > Pages : 33 > Date : 2018-04-09 > > Abstract: > This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables > ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still > gathering candidates, by incrementally exchanging candidates over > time instead of all at once. This method can considerably accelerate > the process of establishing a communication session. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > From nobody Wed Apr 11 14:28:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D91D12895E for ; 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Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 72-v6sm1137490itg.36.2018.04.11.14.27.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:27:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Saint-Andre To: ice@ietf.org References: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> <14262ab0-2247-4938-7d66-4dc28ad37474@mozilla.com> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABzSdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT7CwZQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekM7BTQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAcLBfAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:27:46 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14262ab0-2247-4938-7d66-4dc28ad37474@mozilla.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 21:28:21 -0000 Ekr and I looked at the peer reflexive text and found two things that are easily fixed with some wordsmithing: * In §11, the order of points 4 and 5 could be interpreted to mean that a Trickle ICE agent aapplies the redundancy checking rules from 5245bis and only then applies the rule in point 5 about pairs with peer reflexive candidates. * Also in §11 (and §10 too), point 6 says: 6. If after the relevant redundancy tests the check list where the pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard the new pair. Discarding the new pair is not consistent with §6.1.2.5 of 5245bis; instead, we should discard lower-priority pairs to prune things down to the maximum number of candidate pairs. Peter On 4/9/18 5:43 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Some further edits along the lines discussed on list... > > On 4/9/18 5:42 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. >> >> Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol >> Authors : Emil Ivov >> Eric Rescorla >> Justin Uberti >> Peter Saint-Andre >> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt >> Pages : 33 >> Date : 2018-04-09 >> >> Abstract: >> This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the >> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables >> ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still >> gathering candidates, by incrementally exchanging candidates over >> time instead of all at once. This method can considerably accelerate >> the process of establishing a communication session. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> From nobody Wed Apr 11 19:51:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com 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sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 3B.94.24098.0A83FCA5; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:44:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.115]) by ESESSHC016.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.66]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:44:48 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt Thread-Index: AQHT0FxykGJyvcuBZU2kFPjVPCB3lKP49tsAgAL+wgCAARF2gA== Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 10:44:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> <14262ab0-2247-4938-7d66-4dc28ad37474@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.7.170905 x-originating-ip: [131.160.50.130] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <442F15A559556448B8A51FECFA334AB0@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 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Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 10:44:53 -0000 Hi, I had a look at this, and I think there are another issues regarding referencing section 5.1.3 (in addition to the fact that section 5.1.3 of 5245bis talks about candidates - not candidates pairs- as I mentioned in another reply). Section 5.1.3 defines procedures when gathering local candidates - NOT when receiving remote candidates. And, as far as I remember, 5245bis does not talk about eliminating of remote candidates (it does talk about check list pruning, but that=B9s a separate thing). So, I think the text in bullet 4 of section 11 is wrong - it should not reference section 5.1.3 of 5245bis. Instead it should say something like: 4. The agent prunes the updated check list by following the rules in Section 6.1.2.4 of [rfc5245bis], but only checks existing pairs if they have a state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity checks have already yielded a definitive result). In general, when we talk about removing redundant pairs, I think we should use =B3prune=B2 terminology. Also, I don=B9t think =B3in flight checks=B2 is terminology defined in ICE,= or STUN in general. >* In =A711, the order of points 4 and 5 could be interpreted to mean that >a Trickle ICE agent aapplies the redundancy checking rules from 5245bis >and only then applies the rule in point 5 about pairs with peer >reflexive candidates. So, what change do you suggest? >* Also in =A711 (and =A710 too), point 6 says: > > 6. If after the relevant redundancy tests the check list where the > pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of > candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent > SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the > new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard > the new pair. > >Discarding the new pair is not consistent with =A76.1.2.5 of 5245bis; >instead, we should discard lower-priority pairs to prune things down to >the maximum number of candidate pairs. Do we want to discard lower-priority pairs even if they are in =B3Succeeded= =B2 or =B3In-Progress=B2 state? Regards, Christer >On 4/9/18 5:43 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Some further edits along the lines discussed on list... >>=20 >> On 4/9/18 5:42 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>directories. >>> This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity >>>Establishment WG of the IETF. >>> >>> Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of >>>Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol >>> Authors : Emil Ivov >>> Eric Rescorla >>> Justin Uberti >>> Peter Saint-Andre >>> Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt >>> Pages : 33 >>> Date : 2018-04-09 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables >>> ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still >>> gathering candidates, by incrementally exchanging candidates over >>> time instead of all at once. This method can considerably >>>accelerate >>> the process of establishing a communication session. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ >>> >>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 >>> >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ice-trickle-20 >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>> > >_______________________________________________ >Ice mailing list >Ice@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Fri Apr 13 05:18:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAE41242F5 for ; 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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:06:53 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Ben Campbell , Peter Saint-Andre CC: Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTy2yX73Ehi4UWF02QdXKK9x8zEKPvKNAAgAAAqICAAAKUAIAAAkMAgAAC5ICAAAKPAIAABSyAgAABrACAAA6TAIAAAI6AgAAWLYCAAUXTgIAAFRIAgA3/bYA= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:06:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.7.170905 x-originating-ip: [131.160.50.130] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <4B39094A9B29F742988D260CF0620309@ericsson.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2J7iG763AtRBv3b5C32/F3EbjG/8zS7 xY+1y5kt3l/Qtfh2odZixp+JzBbnd65nspi6/DGLxdp/7ewWz1aeYrTYObeD2YHbY8rvjawe O2fdZfdYsuQnk0ffgS5Wj1k7n7AEsEZx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZWx7/oK9YCl/xfzP/UwNjLN5 uhg5OSQETCQWT5jM3sXIxSEkcIRR4uyp02wQzhJGifMTZjF3MXJwsAlYSHT/0wZpEBHwlpjZ 8hGshlmglVni7YQbbCAJYYECiZ69+1kgigol1u54BFYkItDFKDFl3RSwIhYBVYmz9/8yg9i8 AtYS7Qf+sUJsO8Qu8fr6QVaQBKeAvcTDyS/ZQWxGATGJ76fWMIHYzALiEreezGeCuFtAYsme 88wQtqjEy8f/wHpFBfQkNpy4zQ5ytYSAksTtDU4QrXoSN6ZC3MAMtLf75UZ2CFtbYtnC11D3 CEqcnPmEZQKj+Cwk22YhaZ+FpH0WkvZZSNoXMLKuYhQtTi0uzk03MtZLLcpMLi7Oz9PLSy3Z xAiM84NbfuvuYFz92vEQowAHoxIP7+qaC1FCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHhvFgCFeFMSK6tSi/Lj i0pzUosPMUpzsCiJ8+qt2hMlJJCeWJKanZpakFoEk2Xi4JRqYKwwXPL3g8CpCMGgkk07o6Ks SvkqZL0+ZNwsvlO3cMWBd0pS5sFXD/RVql27FbO9/+LyTja17COFu0VOm7Et6Shd4vh+SuKM 1E1iRz5t7ko66CLNGaXMffenzOopxzO4whfneJo9DPteKhrm9aPgW2PY9E9+MREpFtnHYoLN NopsZefct7bLV4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRACma4wfvAgAA Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:18:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:07:10 -0000 Hi, >>On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >>wrote: >>=20 >> On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell >> > wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>>> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=B9t normatively reference ice-sip-SDP >>>>> draft when it moved to using =B3usages =B3 indirections for signaling >>>>>protocols. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as >>>>>usage >>>>> for trickle. >>>>=20 >>>> It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of >>>> draft-ietf-ice-trickle. >>>=20 >>> I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I >>> also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes (thus >>> small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, trickle-sip >>>to >>> refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for these >>> drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) >>>=20 >>> I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we pick, >>> there is some work that needs to be done and we >>> should do it. >>=20 >> These documents are on the telechat tomorrow. Are we proposing to delay >> consideration by the IESG while we get this mess sorted out? ;-) > >Hi Peter, > >I currently plan to leave it on. We may discuss a way forward on the >telechat. Also, I=B9d like to get feedback on the rest of the draft(s) fro= m >the other ADs sooner than later. Did you discuss this at the telechat? Any other discussions on how to move forward with this? Regards, Christer From nobody Fri Apr 13 08:18:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90492124BE8; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 07:56:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EudqZ1Z56x-b; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 07:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09765120721; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 07:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w3DEu4tV048275 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:56:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BD6D9F6-B063-4141-9B42-5338EDFAFB33"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:56:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" To: Christer Holmberg References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 08:18:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:56:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8BD6D9F6-B063-4141-9B42-5338EDFAFB33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 13, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 >>> On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Peter Saint-Andre >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell >>> > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre >>>> > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>>>> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=C4=85t normatively reference = ice-sip-SDP >>>>>> draft when it moved to using =C5=82usages =C5=82 indirections for = signaling >>>>>> protocols. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as >>>>>> usage >>>>>> for trickle. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of >>>>> draft-ietf-ice-trickle. >>>>=20 >>>> I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. = (I >>>> also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes = (thus >>>> small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, = trickle-sip >>>> to >>>> refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for these >>>> drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) >>>>=20 >>>> I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we = pick, >>>> there is some work that needs to be done and we >>>> should do it. >>>=20 >>> These documents are on the telechat tomorrow. Are we proposing to = delay >>> consideration by the IESG while we get this mess sorted out? ;-) >>=20 >> Hi Peter, >>=20 >> I currently plan to leave it on. We may discuss a way forward on the >> telechat. Also, I=C4=85d like to get feedback on the rest of the = draft(s) from >> the other ADs sooner than later. >=20 > Did you discuss this at the telechat? >=20 > Any other discussions on how to move forward with this? Yes, Adam and I have been discussing this with the RTCWEB chairs. = We=E2=80=99ve since discovered that this is not the only JSEP normative = reference chain back to SIP. The RTCWEB chairs are currently discussing = whether they can live with that. They may decide to just reference = things as they stand. If their answer involves a request to restructure = anything, I will pull in the authors and MMUSIC/ICE chairs. Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_8BD6D9F6-B063-4141-9B42-5338EDFAFB33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrQxQIACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1ddw//d1NHWF9kYk4y2EeYSz+WOdJnNYexOzBxS1RWzV0hbUOWVxq/D83xG/zA JNOEUHaHNP0tdWfYzS7McTqmzR1Vy+Y/zGytXOj+NMJDNwmMmQnFl1l7IHU1rl1X OcbQjXjBN86cqAldKfVpLZvKDYnx3ZLviwY590dOG1K1ppJGu0VykEljwab73HuH J68AOQWztYqn/M5bRtv8Vnt/gzTVswQS4NSIIVChqbifPqztwDt7vOY/y/nO6wTX MBsbWpR0GvNKAWen19MjZbjTccg6fgP7AcdNDMVyqnm1UvMQVm1so/93Rb/j9aOY 2f35jI4M45g/YHh+IXD8djOFogsmkrVb8T3tBC+KXz+Vz3HY3ha2bR3Oth6yMWuo XRRuvUu4Im62mKGcWCWCFjiYOv40pDqfnnHjHww8ZiGYzQ+65S+CElM2N+pwG+82 CkLB1Zo+x5M+maDOJvbPvREV5kuU9rPF7DkjG6DTCmpVBosbXlcRkfELvzFm2b5z cepdgkoCuJZvYc6lIdOGWz36EQXZ6/1niegZ2dZZWwa8IxD8losz+tZHVa5Gjb7o Oyit9aWLRyJcvtxoVXtiPLKnGzrI41/Nsuhh8aIUGQrX4NTojIweaF6IvkoGnr4b rnKJcFOhePi9pbcnTy3mR5jqNFnCBoOD8FbEIDOuHVeDsY/VgLg= =lJ2X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8BD6D9F6-B063-4141-9B42-5338EDFAFB33-- From nobody Fri Apr 13 15:43:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1337712AF83 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AbqwK7F2V7veHcR6vx02jTYus4NSBx3Mi" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 22:43:18 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --AbqwK7F2V7veHcR6vx02jTYus4NSBx3Mi Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="OT1g5IFhh5tZSMvrrrUDQvaJEMdoWmoFA"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Christer Holmberg , "ice@ietf.org" Message-ID: <9f4b0044-a872-1604-b82d-a65b5166c3b1@mozilla.com> Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt References: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> <14262ab0-2247-4938-7d66-4dc28ad37474@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: --OT1g5IFhh5tZSMvrrrUDQvaJEMdoWmoFA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/12/18 4:44 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I had a look at this, and I think there are another issues regarding > referencing section 5.1.3 (in addition to the fact that section 5.1.3 o= f > 5245bis talks about candidates - not candidates pairs- as I mentioned i= n > another reply). >=20 > Section 5.1.3 defines procedures when gathering local candidates - NOT > when receiving remote candidates. And, as far as I remember, 5245bis do= es > not talk about eliminating of remote candidates (it does talk about che= ck > list pruning, but that=C2=B9s a separate thing). >=20 > So, I think the text in bullet 4 of section 11 is wrong - it should not= > reference section 5.1.3 of 5245bis. Instead it should say something lik= e: >=20 > 4. The agent prunes the updated check list by following the rules > in Section 6.1.2.4 of [rfc5245bis], but only checks existing pairs > if they have a state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of= > pairs for which connectivity checks are in flight or for which > connectivity checks have already yielded a definitive result). Agreed, this shouldn't reference 5.1.3 at all. > In general, when we talk about removing redundant pairs, I think we sho= uld > use =C2=B3prune=C2=B2 terminology. Agreed. > Also, I don=C2=B9t think =C2=B3in flight checks=C2=B2 is terminology de= fined in ICE, or > STUN in general. Does that matter? >> * In =C2=A711, the order of points 4 and 5 could be interpreted to mea= n that >> a Trickle ICE agent aapplies the redundancy checking rules from 5245bi= s >> and only then applies the rule in point 5 about pairs with peer >> reflexive candidates. >=20 > So, what change do you suggest? Most likely swap the order of 4 and 5, with some slight wordsmithing. >> * Also in =C2=A711 (and =C2=A710 too), point 6 says: >> >> 6. If after the relevant redundancy tests the check list where the >> pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of >> candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent >> SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for th= e >> new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard >> the new pair. >> >> Discarding the new pair is not consistent with =C2=A76.1.2.5 of 5245bi= s; >> instead, we should discard lower-priority pairs to prune things down t= o >> the maximum number of candidate pairs. >=20 > Do we want to discard lower-priority pairs even if they are in =C2=B3Su= cceeded=C2=B2 > or =C2=B3In-Progress=C2=B2 state? No, those pairs are already carved out by the rule that the agent "only checks existing pairs if they have a state of Waiting or Frozen". I'll work on specific text and perhaps publish -21 over the weekend. Peter --OT1g5IFhh5tZSMvrrrUDQvaJEMdoWmoFA-- --AbqwK7F2V7veHcR6vx02jTYus4NSBx3Mi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlrRMoEACgkQZWGMGH9o FKnmPw//auo7nsaBtkHtXf6Zr2ON0pvoKgEjOYlsccuKd5scRvrhtMG1kLErzK2e gdtj8chnpKpOQX+OlNlLPsCrL3gU8uOTnVEVW0bcIBX5OGnqPwl4IM3W9bQu8Fqq XXU+1sU9KJxSLp4t/LzwciISocS6h3qkqA5xwxO+JhcenJ3fxDDMkRe6lPHLg8mb pvy4dhCMEYal0nW2UH0+InSlplUzkhxybTALnR+cYpNSm0E3FfZ7mBgDIwCeEQQm xsgZy4zbKMK9NNS9uAswWgpHrUmuoyHXVEJm+XGPS6gLJ7IDPx/gsR5XKvh4kzmY 18RWOONBGsXM3YgeQA8qRqT5r/vZFKFKSa0yCGWggv8O87lEvP8RALxIujr1Lerk nhrVk+hjC5DupIZgf7MYcxmU7nQx+XS87Bk+RUYpeN5SWf/bQaUOYaiPitX2WDbf 2PVyyUyq/eTxr6Leol/WZIGjD4xg+aEo0clsL5UfqpiQ3252eu+lPencefxjiMhZ ckClronbi5OHim6M8CeQWMouGqG5TT4hJkwba0i8vyyZMrm9v50FFPh4dblaB4m4 eGeUQyB3ZFLJjS2fSlsrvnVZaj/LLz11+WN4wH9Q/kFANE/lrNjIY8mWh98Kr57I ADlFtHteolgv/0gl27KLnnoXE7i9lw6rz1V0fdClj99YM6QdYkA= =EikS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AbqwK7F2V7veHcR6vx02jTYus4NSBx3Mi-- From nobody Fri Apr 13 23:51:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156E3126DFF for ; 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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 08:51:27 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre CC: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt Thread-Index: AQHT0FxykGJyvcuBZU2kFPjVPCB3lKP49tsAgAL+wgCAARF2gIACKEcAgACp8Vs= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 06:51:26 +0000 Message-ID: <258159C1-72E1-4DFF-8415-FE451E3807E0@ericsson.com> References: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> <14262ab0-2247-4938-7d66-4dc28ad37474@mozilla.com> , <9f4b0044-a872-1604-b82d-a65b5166c3b1@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <9f4b0044-a872-1604-b82d-a65b5166c3b1@mozilla.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_258159C172E14DFF8415FE451E3807E0ericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmplkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbHdQPfDkotRBvcms1l8u1Br8WzlKUYH Jo8lS34yefQd6GINYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyrjV0c9UMDO04sT2hewNjGc9uhg5OSQETCTO 7PvO2sXIxSEkcIRR4s/dKawgCSGBxYwSq96GdTFycLAJWEh0/9MGCYsIaEvcPLSXBSTMLKAo 8XKvGkhYWMBG4tHaJYwQJbYSX5sWs0LYfhJHbvezgNgsAqoSXz9dAYvzCthLbFh6mQ1i7WQm iXMP/rOBzOQESrxeDTaTUUBM4vupNUwgNrOAuMStJ/OZIE4WkFiy5zwzhC0q8fLxP1aImmSJ pW132CHmC0qcnPmEZQKj8Cwk7bOQlM1CUgYRN5B4f24+M4StLbFs4WsoW19i45ezjMjiCxjZ VzGKFqcWJ+WmGxnrpRZlJhcX5+fp5aWWbGIERs7BLb9VdzBefuN4iFGAg1GJh3fZrItRQqyJ ZcWVuYcYJTiYlUR4V6UChXhTEiurUovy44tKc1KLDzFKc7AoifM+NN8cJSSQnliSmp2aWpBa BJNl4uCUamCU2u+Txr63M9LYVaCUk6vEYm6oy5kPx/bsDfXvW7FcRj/4oewleX8J41l5Vv5a Bz157a+/XSC4iy9Psvxx517F4/zG+Y95byc/dYqYtnXm/U49g2/6S4Ty/064+qR8c+X8JVkR H26rdG55nne7UdPwerCcgciRpCt7Ys9KiB2e7MUX4+RUoKzEUpyRaKjFXFScCABDL6p2mAIA AA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 06:51:32 -0000 --_000_258159C172E14DFF8415FE451E3807E0ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Peter, It=92s up to you how to handle the administrative, but I think it would be = useful to be able to see your suggested changes (e.g., using a pull request= , or an email describing the changes) before submitting a new version of th= e draft. Regards, Christer Sent from my iPhone On 14 Apr 2018, at 1.43, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: On 4/12/18 4:44 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote: Hi, I had a look at this, and I think there are another issues regarding referencing section 5.1.3 (in addition to the fact that section 5.1.3 of 5245bis talks about candidates - not candidates pairs- as I mentioned in another reply). Section 5.1.3 defines procedures when gathering local candidates - NOT when receiving remote candidates. And, as far as I remember, 5245bis does not talk about eliminating of remote candidates (it does talk about check list pruning, but that=B9s a separate thing). So, I think the text in bullet 4 of section 11 is wrong - it should not reference section 5.1.3 of 5245bis. Instead it should say something like: 4. The agent prunes the updated check list by following the rules in Section 6.1.2.4 of [rfc5245bis], but only checks existing pairs if they have a state of Waiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of pairs for which connectivity checks are in flight or for which connectivity checks have already yielded a definitive result). Agreed, this shouldn't reference 5.1.3 at all. In general, when we talk about removing redundant pairs, I think we should use =B3prune=B2 terminology. Agreed. Also, I don=B9t think =B3in flight checks=B2 is terminology defined in ICE,= or STUN in general. Does that matter? * In =A711, the order of points 4 and 5 could be interpreted to mean that a Trickle ICE agent aapplies the redundancy checking rules from 5245bis and only then applies the rule in point 5 about pairs with peer reflexive candidates. So, what change do you suggest? Most likely swap the order of 4 and 5, with some slight wordsmithing. * Also in =A711 (and =A710 too), point 6 says: 6. If after the relevant redundancy tests the check list where the pair is to be added already contains the maximum number of candidate pairs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent SHOULD discard any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the new pair. If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard the new pair. Discarding the new pair is not consistent with =A76.1.2.5 of 5245bis; instead, we should discard lower-priority pairs to prune things down to the maximum number of candidate pairs. Do we want to discard lower-priority pairs even if they are in =B3Succeeded= =B2 or =B3In-Progress=B2 state? No, those pairs are already carved out by the rule that the agent "only checks existing pairs if they have a state of Waiting or Frozen". I'll work on specific text and perhaps publish -21 over the weekend. Peter --_000_258159C172E14DFF8415FE451E3807E0ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Peter,

It=92s up to you how to handle the administrative, but I think it woul= d be useful to be able to see your suggested changes (e.g., using a pull re= quest, or an email describing the changes) before submitting a new version = of the draft.

Regards,

Christer 


Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Apr 2018, at 1.43, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

On 4/12/18 4:44 AM, Christer Holmberg wrote:

Hi,

I had a look at this, and I think there are= another issues regarding
referencing section 5.1.3 (in addition to t= he fact that section 5.1.3 of
5245bis talks about candidates - not candid= ates pairs- as I mentioned in
another reply).

Section 5.1.3 defines procedures when gathe= ring local candidates - NOT
when receiving remote candidates. And, as f= ar as I remember, 5245bis does
not talk about eliminating of remote candid= ates (it does talk about check
list pruning, but that=B9s a separate thing= ).

So, I think the text in bullet 4 of section= 11 is wrong - it should not
reference section 5.1.3 of 5245bis. Instead= it should say something like:

   4. The agent prunes the u= pdated check list by following the rules
   in Section 6.1.2.4 of [rf= c5245bis], but only checks existing pairs
   if they have a state of W= aiting or Frozen (thus avoiding removal of
   pairs for which connectiv= ity checks are in flight or for which
   connectivity checks have = already yielded a definitive result).

Agreed, this shouldn't reference 5.1.3 at all.

In general, when we talk about removing red= undant pairs, I think we should
use =B3prune=B2 terminology.

Agreed.

Also, I don=B9t think =B3in flight checks= =B2 is terminology defined in ICE, or
STUN in general.

Does that matter?

* In =A711, the order of points 4 and 5 cou= ld be interpreted to mean that
a Trickle ICE agent aapplies the redundancy= checking rules from 5245bis
and only then applies the rule in point 5 a= bout pairs with peer
reflexive candidates.

So, what change do you suggest?

Most likely swap the order of 4 and 5, with some slight wordsmithing.=

* Also in =A711 (and =A710 too), point 6 sa= ys:

 6.  If after the relevant redund= ancy tests the check list where the
     pair is to be= added already contains the maximum number of
     candidate pai= rs (100 by default as per [rfc5245bis]), the agent
     SHOULD discar= d any pairs in the Failed state to make room for the
     new pair. &nb= sp;If there are no such pairs, the agent SHOULD discard
     the new pair.=

Discarding the new pair is not consistent w= ith =A76.1.2.5 of 5245bis;
instead, we should discard lower-priority p= airs to prune things down to
the maximum number of candidate pairs.

Do we want to discard lower-priority pairs = even if they are in =B3Succeeded=B2
or =B3In-Progress=B2 state?

No, those pairs are already carved out by the rule that the agent &qu= ot;only
checks existing pairs if they have a state of Waiting or Frozen"= .

I'll work on specific text and perhaps publish -21 over the weekend.<= /span>

Peter

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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 09:54:25 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt Thread-Index: AQHT0FxykGJyvcuBZU2kFPjVPCB3lKP49tsAgAL+wgCAARF2gIACKEcAgAC43rA= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 07:54:25 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B72E6BF40@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> References: <152331734608.13396.14003423726113423470@ietfa.amsl.com> <14262ab0-2247-4938-7d66-4dc28ad37474@mozilla.com> <9f4b0044-a872-1604-b82d-a65b5166c3b1@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <9f4b0044-a872-1604-b82d-a65b5166c3b1@mozilla.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.170] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7h+62zRejDObe07L4dqHW4tnKU4wO TB5Llvxk8ug70MUawBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlTH9/ArWggf8FXM2f2FpYFzD38XIySEhYCIx 6fs99i5GLg4hgSOMEhuen2cCSQgJLGaUmDvFtIuRg4NNwEKi+582SFhEwEti5p77YCXCAjYS 7y5vYoGI20p8bVrMCmH7SSy9vZMRxGYRUJWYdOAiWA2vgK/E6+97oMZPZZL4dYMJZDyngL3E 69VqIGFGATGJ76fWgJUwC4hL3HoynwniTAGJJXvOM0PYohIvH/9jhbCVJM5ses4CMoZZQFNi /S59iFZFiSndD9khtgpKnJz5hGUCo8gsJFNnIXTMQtIxC0nHAkaWVYyixanFSbnpRkZ6qUWZ ycXF+Xl6eaklmxiBUXBwy2+DHYwvnzseYhTgYFTi4XWaczFKiDWxrLgy9xCjBAezkgjvqlSg EG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIUZpDhYlcV4Lv81RQgLpiSWp2ampBalFMFkmDk6pBsZ8EedHD84o b1SZwlUetLbOrWlxbAXHi3PL2OfVxx43SUw2VnnD094cuU3peE9PTvtEZQVN45+Gl5PnPr/2 yHkG8w+Z27H7M7bbbTqypv1xdrXS9Yl7NplvXyrrJ7LileKCeXMVfA1XKZf+u3VNdNnE4jMC phE1RUGBs0prVc427XzwYau9/EclluKMREMt5qLiRAC2MB/TfgIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-20.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 07:54:35 -0000 SGksDQoNCi4uLg0KDQo+PiBBbHNvLCBJIGRvbsK5dCB0aGluayAiaW4gZmxpZ2h0IGNoZWNrcyIg aXMgdGVybWlub2xvZ3kgZGVmaW5lZCBpbiBJQ0UsIA0KPj4gb3IgU1RVTiBpbiBnZW5lcmFsLg0K Pg0KPiBEb2VzIHRoYXQgbWF0dGVyPw0KDQpXaHkgbm90IHVzZSBleGlzdGluZyB0ZXJtaW5vbG9n eT8gSSBhc3N1bWUgeW91IG1lYW4gcGFpcnMgaW4gIkluLVByb2dyZXNzIiBzdGF0ZT8NCg0KU29t ZXRoaW5nIGxpa2U6DQoNCiAgICAgICAiKHRodXMgYXZvaWRpbmcgcmVtb3ZhbCBvZiBwYWlycyB0 aGF0IGhhdmUgYSBzdGF0ZSBvZiBJbi1Qcm9ncmVzcywgYW5kIHBhaXJzIGZvciB3aGljaA0KICAg ICAgICAgY29ubmVjdGl2aXR5IGNoZWNrcyBoYXZlIGFscmVhZHkgeWllbGRlZCBhIGRlZmluaXRp dmUgU3VjZXNzZnVsIG9yIEZhaWxlZCByZXN1bHQpLiINCg0KLi4uDQoNCj4+PiAqIEFsc28gaW4g wqcxMSAoYW5kIMKnMTAgdG9vKSwgcG9pbnQgNiBzYXlzOg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gICA2LiAgSWYgYWZ0 ZXIgdGhlIHJlbGV2YW50IHJlZHVuZGFuY3kgdGVzdHMgdGhlIGNoZWNrIGxpc3Qgd2hlcmUgdGhl DQo+Pj4gICAgICAgcGFpciBpcyB0byBiZSBhZGRlZCBhbHJlYWR5IGNvbnRhaW5zIHRoZSBtYXhp bXVtIG51bWJlciBvZg0KPj4+ICAgICAgIGNhbmRpZGF0ZSBwYWlycyAoMTAwIGJ5IGRlZmF1bHQg YXMgcGVyIFtyZmM1MjQ1YmlzXSksIHRoZSBhZ2VudA0KPj4+ICAgICAgIFNIT1VMRCBkaXNjYXJk IGFueSBwYWlycyBpbiB0aGUgRmFpbGVkIHN0YXRlIHRvIG1ha2Ugcm9vbSBmb3IgdGhlDQo+Pj4g ICAgICAgbmV3IHBhaXIuICBJZiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgbm8gc3VjaCBwYWlycywgdGhlIGFnZW50IFNI T1VMRCBkaXNjYXJkDQo+Pj4gICAgICAgdGhlIG5ldyBwYWlyLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gRGlzY2FyZGlu ZyB0aGUgbmV3IHBhaXIgaXMgbm90IGNvbnNpc3RlbnQgd2l0aCDCpzYuMS4yLjUgb2YgNTI0NWJp czsgDQo+Pj4gaW5zdGVhZCwgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGRpc2NhcmQgbG93ZXItcHJpb3JpdHkgcGFpcnMg dG8gcHJ1bmUgdGhpbmdzIGRvd24gDQo+Pj4gdG8gdGhlIG1heGltdW0gbnVtYmVyIG9mIGNhbmRp ZGF0ZSBwYWlycy4NCj4+IA0KPj4gRG8gd2Ugd2FudCB0byBkaXNjYXJkIGxvd2VyLXByaW9yaXR5 IHBhaXJzIGV2ZW4gaWYgdGhleSBhcmUgaW4gDQo+PiAiU3VjY2VlZGVkIiBvciAiSW4tUHJvZ3Jl c3MiIHN0YXRlPw0KPg0KPiBObywgdGhvc2UgcGFpcnMgYXJlIGFscmVhZHkgY2FydmVkIG91dCBi eSB0aGUgcnVsZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBhZ2VudCAib25seSBjaGVja3MgZXhpc3RpbmcgDQo+IHBhaXJz IGlmIHRoZXkgaGF2ZSBhIHN0YXRlIG9mIFdhaXRpbmcgb3IgRnJvemVuIi4NCg0KVHJ1ZS4gSSBn b3QgY29uZnVzZWQgZHVlIHRvIHRoZSByZWZlcmVuY2UgaXNzdWUgaW4gYnVsbGV0IDUuIEkgd2l0 aGRyYXcgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpDaHJpc3Rlcg0KDQo= From nobody Sun Apr 15 00:23:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CBC126C0F for ; 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15 Apr 2018 07:22:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51C818A04B3; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:22:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra003.verygoodemail.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id maBFJt62cK91; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:22:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (cable-82-119-15-228.cust.telecolumbus.net [82.119.15.228]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23F9F18A049B; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:22:58 +0100 (BST) From: westhawk Message-Id: <251716DB-7292-4D75-8FD9-ABF2182302A1@westhawk.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7E54B455-3B2B-4CC5-B564-E76F3B84FF4D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:22:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christer Holmberg , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , mmusic WG , "ice@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" To: Ben Campbell References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 07:23:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7E54B455-3B2B-4CC5-B564-E76F3B84FF4D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 13 Apr 2018, at 16:56, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Yes, Adam and I have been discussing this with the RTCWEB chairs. = We=E2=80=99ve since discovered that this is not the only JSEP normative = reference chain back to SIP. The RTCWEB chairs are currently discussing = whether they can live with that. They may decide to just reference = things as they stand. If their answer involves a request to restructure = anything, I will pull in the authors and MMUSIC/ICE chairs. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. For what it is worth, I=E2=80=99d argue we can live with it. My thinking is that having a reference chain back to SIP in the = documents reflects the reality of RTCWeb 1.0 implementations. The SDP is there because it = was believed that using it would make interop with other (typically SIP based) = systems easier. Much of the actual implementations grew out of SIP heritage codebases. I think it is only reasonable that the documents reflect this reality. T. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb = --Apple-Mail=_7E54B455-3B2B-4CC5-B564-E76F3B84FF4D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 13 Apr 2018, at 16:56, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> = wrote:

Yes, Adam and I have been discussing this with the RTCWEB = chairs. We=E2=80=99ve since discovered that this is not the only JSEP = normative reference chain back to SIP. The RTCWEB chairs are currently = discussing whether they can live with that. They may decide to just = reference things as they stand. If their answer involves a request to = restructure anything, I will pull in the authors and MMUSIC/ICE = chairs.

Thanks!

Ben.

For what it is worth, I=E2=80=99d argue we can = live with it.
My thinking is that having a reference chain = back to SIP in the documents reflects
the reality of RTCWeb = 1.0 implementations. The SDP is there because it was = believed
that using it would make interop with other = (typically SIP based) systems easier.

Much of the actual implementations grew out of SIP = heritage codebases.

I think it is = only reasonable that the documents reflect this reality.

T.


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

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19:35:23 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 02:35:24 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol Authors : Emil Ivov Eric Rescorla Justin Uberti Peter Saint-Andre Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21.txt Pages : 33 Date : 2018-04-15 Abstract: This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still gathering candidates, by incrementally exchanging candidates over time instead of all at once. This method can considerably accelerate the process of establishing a communication session. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Apr 15 19:37:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F37A12D77C for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e2Mt0osemdZ7 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x235.google.com (mail-it0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E23D12D77A for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x235.google.com with SMTP id h143-v6so9580518ita.4 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:37:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=subject:references:to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NOhOKZv8j8CL61ji53y5UoKWkA4kTwP+u6I7xbNOBdA=; b=CdzTP7bSICcyGDSjX3qOWMG5MBNSPYp7dOsxWRVC4m9IRnVOFF7Z6cOw8bGhJTk9+k s2WfWMVh1/PkgXGMLdTNbekODAGmY2O4EhNMLS4LwjcUtgIZ+ZJsnKS0yjfACApEL07a NCv10g/vos6XcSlji5dUA9me1gp3EN0Dm+46k= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:to:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NOhOKZv8j8CL61ji53y5UoKWkA4kTwP+u6I7xbNOBdA=; b=YTyzNhZ33cQv2C9lwhExGkYvb2D9N2PVHSRbGh45UGcymJ5FUmKlrgA+ejb2pGCx5V mRoOsCPZdkda/kxtdkK63ExP15Z2zCTZJJzycGNpvUdciJGuBZwsSqrW7SG3hd7U0Mum mEeB7vLbo43hD+95dGT/xW9B7kV/GaNhq0t2cR8eoXFbKh/T9SG8G0sFvG12HMErzrOB tJGR8/viQN236FoXvCkrpwIXzBDPtxOGNBVe33WIO5TGSnQGAOL1+DuC1schrLb0xaCq GNC4MAKMpW5+nIf5Pdo3h4VMhU7M/90l5ZGgn4Hz0ClVvwcUTO47jvshmKJLKyZXE+ki 17Gg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAdbU/2H9z7YR2s7TvvdACvfXp4uxrDUxmCxO6iEy3+p8R4ZSOX KGvKxPHeHSTO3YmoyMtRhRrfdw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49CB/jys1fwcx7jCeRO/fLaEIwh60LjpwymAFo29fY5QGFtiFcPgmyQAYVEnYIIgEtrXDEvBQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:33d3:: with SMTP id k202-v6mr13626267itk.16.1523846238806; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b187-v6sm4098592ita.5.2018.04.15.19.37.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:37:18 -0700 (PDT) References: <152384612369.20878.2699935431881674302@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ice@ietf.org From: Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:37:17 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <152384612369.20878.2699935431881674302@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 02:37:21 -0000 As discussed on list, some slight corrections to handling of peer reflexive candidates, and a bit of wordsmithing here and there. On 4/15/18 8:35 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. > > Title : Trickle ICE: Incremental Provisioning of Candidates for the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) Protocol > Authors : Emil Ivov > Eric Rescorla > Justin Uberti > Peter Saint-Andre > Filename : draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21.txt > Pages : 33 > Date : 2018-04-15 > > Abstract: > This document describes "Trickle ICE", an extension to the > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) protocol that enables > ICE agents to begin connectivity checks while they are still > gathering candidates, by incrementally exchanging candidates over > time instead of all at once. This method can considerably accelerate > the process of establishing a communication session. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-trickle/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-trickle-21 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > From nobody Sun Apr 15 20:50:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D439E12D873 for ; 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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 20:29:08 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Ben Campbell CC: Peter Saint-Andre , Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTy2yX73Ehi4UWF02QdXKK9x8zEKPvKNAAgAAAqICAAAKUAIAAAkMAgAAC5ICAAAKPAIAABSyAgAABrACAAA6TAIAAAI6AgAAWLYCAAUXTgIAAFRIAgA3/bYD///x6AIAAXRFN Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 18:29:08 +0000 Message-ID: <7B683890-F38A-4D78-BEAC-02F6F90025D1@ericsson.com> References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7B683890F38A4D78BEAC02F6F90025D1ericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7ui7T9wtRBlN36Vvs+buI3WJ+52l2 ix9rlzNbvL+ga/HtQq3FjD8TmS3O71zPZDF1+WMWi7X/2tktnq08xWixc24HswO3x5TfG1k9 ds66y+6xZMlPJo++A12sHrN2PmEJYI3isklJzcksSy3St0vgytiyw7ngXANjxZq9h9kaGH/m dzFyckgImEi0v37ICmILCRxhlFjawN7FyAVkL2GU+DrvHZDDwcEmYCHR/U8bpEZEQEniefNW FpAaZoENzBIrW6+BNQsLFEj07N3PAlFUKLF2xyM2kCIRgWmMEv83vgUrYhFQlXi4eSsjiM0r YC9x4M8lVohtyzkkFkxrBktwAiUWPFnDDmIzCohJfD+1hgnEZhYQl7j1ZD4TxNkCEkv2nGeG sEUlXj7+xwpRkyzxrwniHV4BQYmTM5+wTGAUnoWkfRaSsllIymYBPcosYCDxaJ83RIm2xLKF r5khwvoSt69lIgsvYGRfxShanFqclJtuZKyXWpSZXFycn6eXl1qyiREYswe3/FbdwXj5jeMh RgEORiUe3ukfL0QJsSaWFVfmHmKU4GBWEuGNvQEU4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzvvQ fHOUkEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgTF/za1c1adHfM1rV94uuf3IdbnzbK49Dd3a4g/nH5i2 iaFdXvdoRfo+3wfGP64d5tDouStsfjHu5JNrR1/lVJk4RAQK7RA5+G1l3tT0kP+3t5k4qJd0 LTLtXXn9x+ryZPM+tzj+DQ1ussuu//T9yrhtddvDJIVXm5r4Xm+zFD7WFM7+Z6pi1T4lluKM REMt5qLiRADJDvM+1QIAAA== Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:50:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 18:29:30 -0000 --_000_7B683890F38A4D78BEAC02F6F90025D1ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, In addition, as I mentioned earlier, there are cases where JSEP references = draft-ice-trickle for things and procedures that don=92t exist in draft-ice= -trickle. Instead those references should be to draft-mmusic-trickle. Regards, Christer Sent from my iPhone On 13 Apr 2018, at 17.56, Ben Campbell > wrote: On Apr 13, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Christer Holmberg > wrote: Hi, On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=B9t normatively reference ice-sip-SDP draft when it moved to using =B3usages =B3 indirections for signaling protocols. Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip as usage for trickle. It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out of draft-ietf-ice-trickle. I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes (thus small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, trickle-sip to refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for these drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we pick, there is some work that needs to be done and we should do it. These documents are on the telechat tomorrow. Are we proposing to delay consideration by the IESG while we get this mess sorted out? ;-) Hi Peter, I currently plan to leave it on. We may discuss a way forward on the telechat. Also, I=B9d like to get feedback on the rest of the draft(s) from the other ADs sooner than later. Did you discuss this at the telechat? Any other discussions on how to move forward with this? Yes, Adam and I have been discussing this with the RTCWEB chairs. We=92ve s= ince discovered that this is not the only JSEP normative reference chain ba= ck to SIP. The RTCWEB chairs are currently discussing whether they can live= with that. They may decide to just reference things as they stand. If thei= r answer involves a request to restructure anything, I will pull in the aut= hors and MMUSIC/ICE chairs. Thanks! Ben. --_000_7B683890F38A4D78BEAC02F6F90025D1ericssoncom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,

In addition, as I mentioned earlier, there are cases where JSEP refere= nces draft-ice-trickle for things and procedures that don=92t exist in draf= t-ice-trickle. Instead those references should be to draft-mmusic-trickle.<= /div>

Regards,

Christer 

Sent from my iPhone

On 13 Apr 2018, at 17.56, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:



On Apr 13, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Christer Holmb= erg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Peter Saint-An= dre <stpeter@mozilla.com><= /span>
wrote:

On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:<= /span>


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbe= ll <ben@nostrum.com
<mail= to:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:



On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-And= re <stpeter@mozilla.com
<= mailto:stpeter@mozilla.com>> wrote:

On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote:=
Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=B9t normati= vely reference ice-sip-SDP
draft when it moved to using =B3usages =B3 = indirections for signaling
protocols.


Trickle ice can use similar approach and re= fer to trickle-sip as
usage
for trickle.

It already does. That's why we pulled all t= he SDP/SIP stuff out of
draft-ietf-ice-trickle.

 I assume Suhas meant separating the S= DP stuff from the SIP stuff. (I
 also assume he will correct me if I a= m wrong.)


That's right Ben .. I was just thinking min= imal localized changes (thus
small time to get new draft done) and then = asking trickle, trickle-sip
to
refer to the new one. (work done to refer i= s much smaller for these
drafts that are at the very end of approval= journey)

I do agree with Adam, no matter what versio= n of the proposal we pick,
there is some work that needs to be done an= d we
should do it.

These documents are on the telechat tomorro= w. Are we proposing to delay
consideration by the IESG while we get this= mess sorted out? ;-)

Hi Peter,

I currently plan to leave it on. We may dis= cuss a way forward on the
telechat. Also, I=B9d like to get feedback = on the rest of the draft(s) from
the other ADs sooner than later.

Did you discuss this at the telechat?

Any other discussions on how to move forwar= d with this?

Yes, Adam and I have been discussing this with the RTCWEB chairs. We= =92ve since discovered that this is not the only JSEP normative reference c= hain back to SIP. The RTCWEB chairs are currently discussing whether they c= an live with that. They may decide to just reference things as they stand. If their answer involves a request= to restructure anything, I will pull in the authors and MMUSIC/ICE chairs.=

Thanks!

Ben.

--_000_7B683890F38A4D78BEAC02F6F90025D1ericssoncom_-- From nobody Sun Apr 15 20:50:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5680127978; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:56:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GfK14ufvrUby; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1683127AD4; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.91] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w3DJu08a097300 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:56:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.91] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <14DA7FB6-2F60-4106-BC80-8F43CA621740@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_019D8A7C-D803-4A66-9249-3D5C4AE90557"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 14:55:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: <7B683890-F38A-4D78-BEAC-02F6F90025D1@ericsson.com> Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" To: Christer Holmberg References: <152274059303.13991.7963954297164952826.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <6b2e132d-88ee-9274-b19d-c24937e46ad2@nostrum.com> <07de7983-293d-f97e-8ca9-08713ce48e1c@mozilla.com> <3E157C5A-A2CD-4361-9BFE-B87EA71D8FFD@nostrum.com> <8BBC3434-DEA2-437B-AB32-DA113AE085AA@nostrum.com> <7B683890-F38A-4D78-BEAC-02F6F90025D1@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 20:50:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 19:56:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_019D8A7C-D803-4A66-9249-3D5C4AE90557 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Yes. The question is whether to just move the references in JSEP to = point to mmusic-trickle-sip, or do something different. > On Apr 13, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > In addition, as I mentioned earlier, there are cases where JSEP = references draft-ice-trickle for things and procedures that don=E2=80=99t = exist in draft-ice-trickle. Instead those references should be to = draft-mmusic-trickle. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On 13 Apr 2018, at 17.56, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Apr 13, 2018, at 7:06 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>>>> On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Peter Saint-Andre = >>>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 4/3/18 2:41 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:22 PM, Ben Campbell >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 4/3/18 12:27 PM, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >>>>>>>> Just to complete, ice-bis doesn=C4=85t normatively reference = ice-sip-SDP >>>>>>>> draft when it moved to using =C5=82usages =C5=82 indirections = for signaling >>>>>>>> protocols. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Trickle ice can use similar approach and refer to trickle-sip = as >>>>>>>> usage >>>>>>>> for trickle. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> It already does. That's why we pulled all the SDP/SIP stuff out = of >>>>>>> draft-ietf-ice-trickle. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I assume Suhas meant separating the SDP stuff from the SIP = stuff. (I >>>>>> also assume he will correct me if I am wrong.) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> That's right Ben .. I was just thinking minimal localized changes = (thus >>>>>> small time to get new draft done) and then asking trickle, = trickle-sip >>>>>> to >>>>>> refer to the new one. (work done to refer is much smaller for = these >>>>>> drafts that are at the very end of approval journey) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I do agree with Adam, no matter what version of the proposal we = pick, >>>>>> there is some work that needs to be done and we >>>>>> should do it. >>>>>=20 >>>>> These documents are on the telechat tomorrow. Are we proposing to = delay >>>>> consideration by the IESG while we get this mess sorted out? ;-) >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Peter, >>>>=20 >>>> I currently plan to leave it on. We may discuss a way forward on = the >>>> telechat. Also, I=C4=85d like to get feedback on the rest of the = draft(s) from >>>> the other ADs sooner than later. >>>=20 >>> Did you discuss this at the telechat? >>>=20 >>> Any other discussions on how to move forward with this? >>=20 >> Yes, Adam and I have been discussing this with the RTCWEB chairs. = We=E2=80=99ve since discovered that this is not the only JSEP normative = reference chain back to SIP. The RTCWEB chairs are currently discussing = whether they can live with that. They may decide to just reference = things as they stand. If their answer involves a request to restructure = anything, I will pull in the authors and MMUSIC/ICE chairs. >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Ben. >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_019D8A7C-D803-4A66-9249-3D5C4AE90557 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlrRC08ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A2hiA/9HWxY+Sx4AS7gQv8QvWVmlnixvhco+MEMklzIjhooTOfm+Ejf0V5QN+bN 20rqSCPgBImwWRfE1Ob8+Vtpdmj9L2WR52zzbNuPAYZuqRt6R+1Hur4a8JmokLzh zeWoJM9pHBFrTAWx2kZVaaLvmDYW2ZL1glTZwydzzckYqX9AZWZanAkwOW51kfSQ 7uiM82WE0fymik9Ngmo9K8nG4mnVPBbxQ2WUJG1Wi5/zvEkXBtmcC4vX3vnvdgLz unLGEXZ6E030GMYAHp2J4D5ADktwg4y+EsMW49gxbuE+pMaBaDQ+eXlg6jWryDl3 JO6rEODqzL3ikiGCPRLkgBiOsc30bKhSjSDynOboAfS+6YudxkP9AVVHLgcBwi3w ILqGvdyb0HbqAtwxoBgNPyYyF37O2T8yAI7RBp56KmIH4lPzxIN5Y+yZx2cJw/Y3 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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pg3pyzbBlVAS for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 00:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D13F7126C0F for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 00:16:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=ericsson.com; s=mailgw201801; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@ericsson.com; t=1523776610; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:CC:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ScDIy4cAoVJ6ynkQZLSQ4QpubT8ryhvVFR8IFfTtWJI=; b=DJiMUCc8+gav6KOPmoH1fQQzVWnJt/fnveWkYqHV1jiV6XzXKaUzxJc9K8ns4xTB 85VJtJdoX7iobRziDwWGSe6gTCZTGG5sdYK3LWI234GzCDCQsUYlJWPT8jEPUKAl 9wMuuOjLyXFzMQTttDeCMW4gY9obp+PZQG+ryObWlxI=; X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-82dff70000003563-2a-5ad2fc616201 Received: from ESESSHC016.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.66]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 24.D7.13667.16CF2DA5; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:16:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.34]) by ESESSHC016.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.66]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:16:49 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Ben Campbell CC: Peter Saint-Andre , Suhas Nandakumar , Adam Roach , mmusic WG , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" , Flemming Andreasen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) 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Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 07:16:55 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gWWVzLiBUaGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gaXMgd2hldGhlciB0byBqdXN0IG1vdmUgdGhlIHJl ZmVyZW5jZXMgaW4gSlNFUCB0byBwb2ludCB0byBtbXVzaWMtdHJpY2tsZS1zaXAsIG9yIGRvIHNv bWV0aGluZyBkaWZmZXJlbnQuDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgaXQgd291bGQgYmUgZ29vZCB0byBoYXZlIGEg bGlzdCBvZiBhbGwgdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBpbnN0YW5jZXMgdGhhdCBuZWVkIHRvIGJlIG1vZGlm aWVkLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpDaHJpc3Rlcg0KDQo+IE9uIEFwciAxMywgMjAxOCwgYXQgMToy OSBQTSwgQ2hyaXN0ZXIgSG9sbWJlcmcgPGNocmlzdGVyLmhvbG1iZXJnQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4g d3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBIaSwNCj4gDQo+IEluIGFkZGl0aW9uLCBhcyBJIG1lbnRpb25lZCBlYXJs aWVyLCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgY2FzZXMgd2hlcmUgSlNFUCByZWZlcmVuY2VzIGRyYWZ0LWljZS10cmlj 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