From nobody Thu May 2 03:42:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74E212033A for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 03:42:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O3RMpX4uu-6S for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 03:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr20064.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.2.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0D0A120074 for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 03:42:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=c7wG3kdlOY0DlXBhP9s30JOj3/yE/GCWjwzS/cEqTRw=; b=CVIEpdRqt5pPIeof6nYwy4vcdjSQpEGAwEO2I+zcw7dNymA41WOHGI0bHFmYIpSkbdotwWPqaCKsu5DGG/KfaUJkaO3Y0co5/qAcVnuEGOHX2ejKtgRzTDM3RmX2PcddZuTNftITlC8m++RtLeyjHMSCgHxBW6S3k0tFTNMBk/g= Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.170.245.23) by HE1PR07MB4443.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.176.167.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1856.7; Thu, 2 May 2019 10:42:48 +0000 Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c999:f848:9abc:d321]) by HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c999:f848:9abc:d321%6]) with mapi id 15.20.1856.008; Thu, 2 May 2019 10:42:48 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: Justin Uberti CC: Roman Shpount , Nils Ohlmeier , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? 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Thu, 02 May 2019 09:57:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3A66B735-03C9-41FF-95AD-500B0D469C80@ericsson.com> <30518269-CA9D-4F50-8CE3-062A01DBCD7F@mozilla.com> <0AD3077C-74FA-4585-942A-375B83B3A7A0@ericsson.com> <46390078-DE3B-456B-87AC-61AE3C3DF035@ericsson.com> <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:57:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Roman Shpount , Nils Ohlmeier , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c531640587ea8676" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 16:57:20 -0000 --000000000000c531640587ea8676 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 3:42 AM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > >>>> Overall I think the Firefox approach makes the most sense - the PAC > timer > >>>> starts when you have either a local or remote candidate. > >>> > >>> That would mean that PAC becomes a the-maximum-time-to-run-ICE timer. > If that's what people want, fine. > >> > >> Maybe this is what you meant, but I think it's a > "minimum-time-to-run-ICE" timer. > > > > I guess so, yes. > > > > However, as I said before, I think an agent shall still be allowed to > stop earlier, and not be required to wait for peer reflexive candidates, = if > it already has working pairs. > > > > Sure, this is not a point of contention, but a SHOULD-level directive > may make sense here. > > If the agent does have working pairs, I think waiting for a additional > peer reflexive candidates should only be a MAY. Using working pairs doesn= 't > break anything, and waiting for peer reflexive candidates even if you hav= e > working pairs is just going to delay the nomination. But, if an agent onl= y > have "bad" working pairs (e.g., relayed) it MAY wait for additional peer > reflexive candidates. > > What we want to do is to prevent that an agent declares failure too early > if it does NOT have working candidates. > As stated earlier, I think that is only one part of the problem. But that's largely separate from the discussion here about when to start the timer. > > ... > > >> What about starting the timer after the agent has sent its last set of > candidates? That would cover both trickle and non-trickle: > >> in non-trickle there is only one set of candidates, and in trickle it > doesn't matter how long it takes to provide all candidates since > >> the timer doesn=E2=80=99t start until the last set of candidates have = been sent? > > > > That's basically the same thing I was proposing in 2), with the > clarification that the candidates were also actually transmitted. > > Correct. > > > I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad > server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates= ', > > which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions > we can take are: > > a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any > candidates. > > b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (This > is Nils' suggestion). > > c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). > > > > b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which > we want to explicitly allow. > > True. > > >I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we > mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the > agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we c= an > then map that to an SDP answer. > > Yes, good point. We can start ICE processing (sending checks) as soon as we have the remote username/password, so we could reframe it in those terms. --000000000000c531640587ea8676 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 3:42 AM Christ= er Holmberg <christer.= holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

>>>> Overall I think the Firefox approach makes the most sense = - the PAC timer=C2=A0
>>>> starts when you have either a local or remote candidate.= =C2=A0
>>>
>>> That would mean that PAC becomes a the-maximum-time-to-run-ICE= timer. If that's what people want, fine.
>>
>> Maybe this is what you meant, but I think it's a "minimum= -time-to-run-ICE" timer.=C2=A0
>
> I guess so, yes.
>
> However, as I said before, I think an agent shall still be allowed to = stop earlier, and not be required to wait for peer reflexive candidates, if= it already has working pairs.
>
> Sure, this is not a point of contention, but a SHOULD-level directive = may make sense here.

If the agent does have working pairs, I think waiting for a additional peer= reflexive candidates should only be a MAY. Using working pairs doesn't= break anything, and waiting for peer reflexive candidates even if you have= working pairs is just going to delay the nomination. But, if an agent only= have "bad" working pairs (e.g., relayed) it MAY wait for additio= nal peer reflexive candidates.

What we want to do is to prevent that an agent declares failure too early i= f it does NOT have working candidates.

= As stated earlier, I think that is only one part of the problem. But that&#= 39;s largely separate from the discussion here about when to start the time= r.=C2=A0

...

>> What about starting the timer after the agent has sent its last se= t of candidates? That would cover both trickle and non-trickle:
>> in non-trickle there is only one set of candidates, and in trickle= it doesn't matter how long it takes to provide all candidates since >> the timer doesn=E2=80=99t start until the last set of candidates h= ave been sent?
>
> That's basically the same thing I was proposing in 2), with the cl= arification that the candidates were also actually transmitted.

Correct.

> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad= server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candida= tes',
> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions= we can take are:
> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any can= didates.
> b) a)=C2=A0+ receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC).= (This is Nils' suggestion).
> c) a)=C2=A0+ sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).
>
> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, w= hich we want to explicitly allow.=C2=A0

True.

>I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.

Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we mean= by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes= the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp w= e can then map that to an SDP answer.


Yes, good point. We can start ICE processing (sending checks) as soon as= we have the remote username/password, so we could reframe it in those term= s.=C2=A0
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([2601:647:4600:3f31:2dab:9212:1aa4:b41a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b20sm42160722pff.118.2019.05.02.10.06.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 May 2019 10:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Nils Ohlmeier In-Reply-To: <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 10:06:56 -0700 Cc: Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0928C15F-E7F4-405B-BBBB-2ECD35BD621D@mozilla.com> References: <3A66B735-03C9-41FF-95AD-500B0D469C80@ericsson.com> <30518269-CA9D-4F50-8CE3-062A01DBCD7F@mozilla.com> <0AD3077C-74FA-4585-942A-375B83B3A7A0@ericsson.com> <46390078-DE3B-456B-87AC-61AE3C3DF035@ericsson.com> <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> To: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 17:07:07 -0000 >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad = server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of = candidates',=20 >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential = positions we can take are: >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any = candidates. >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion). >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us = with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) = providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option = c) would help in any of these scenarios. =46rom my point of view we should choose either a) or b). >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, = which we want to explicitly allow.=20 >=20 > True. Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in = the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates = but also does not send EOC. The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to = provide candidate to get the timer started soon. I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t = provide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates = take for ever because of slow servers. >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. >=20 > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we = mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes = the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp = we can then map that to an SDP answer. Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like = an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal = for that. I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra = signal like that. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from = an explicit begin signal. Best Nils= From nobody Thu May 2 12:13:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA48F120108 for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:13:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mg5OC3zpsygI for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9765120075 for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id m7so918965ioa.6 for ; Thu, 02 May 2019 12:13:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bchjM/XyeaIitwZCJY1HUb94JFo+ziJwB2dJPn/EEow=; b=lXmlmCP5QYxQdmqYuXcVIkGt7cY2IVF/QmDkjSCXEqgW1C0BjPGELvyj830y8x4og9 AabxhlOlOdWANbY+KBGgtcMkhKYPUEBo/E//kfg4B4vzWR4dxZzftb8duF6usP2rl5uj IR8QEhrjNufUGDx2IMVo5xg1BfAqii4C7mYBAxbOJu7odfyyKJWqQ+CtXBP8OhUeU2l/ 1IaJ1IocdifnhW2wtlrCDzxvKC6BlnDvZ4vHIdcPDmhls451WiGBzQJh9Ze6ly9IEw6p LJNZWayFgopw3z21lC0xoE3tBSsCLArPh7OIEzRYrFEWURBBMFx4jjAJdjByhYi6Hhl0 Fv/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bchjM/XyeaIitwZCJY1HUb94JFo+ziJwB2dJPn/EEow=; b=Q9rTSmfYJm1QEIcLDpSnIu9OZY36XqcsQYQc6SNn7t8L3gOJcTavbHeP5yu3g6gCiW bFJziEbVdlOl6avsG3AaKkUKaTN/047Oozosofqrhb/2YmtwSFyLWZfC8tI7PQ3yep7p Am6iWsprZ19MxddRza++8aqrPrIzbAc9PRl4m3Tb0srM9PMkE6+7nMLXygjutf44qqOX IK2UJQmVtmnhoJbw1KRyfMFrBAi68hftm6WIFQCJXii+16cr5OIaMT92ekYK0ab8EdYz 0NTz6ph5JWbrjTVxLjOH3GpwhdlJQWJFU4wu36CuRRsMgBr8rxQEJ8AFCNHtBnX3JbZm up5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVu5o3Qp6qxnIELGl3gXPNpSM1iO/flCrD94ktdIrNgCeUMDbD6 8RUp6ojKs6T2/dHHx+7sQuNKjpp/F+OOSEUjl9ENeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzEaywl/ZbpR1Cq2L8KYJrrvyZSTi/KR9WnEbDQlkWViDwkgDxL5EzkcXEdgdRTJqo/ARwEZwy7Vo0bWiIb1PQ= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b291:: with SMTP id b139mr3637965iof.181.1556824411667; Thu, 02 May 2019 12:13:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3A66B735-03C9-41FF-95AD-500B0D469C80@ericsson.com> <30518269-CA9D-4F50-8CE3-062A01DBCD7F@mozilla.com> <0AD3077C-74FA-4585-942A-375B83B3A7A0@ericsson.com> <46390078-DE3B-456B-87AC-61AE3C3DF035@ericsson.com> <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> <0928C15F-E7F4-405B-BBBB-2ECD35BD621D@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <0928C15F-E7F4-405B-BBBB-2ECD35BD621D@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 12:13:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nils Ohlmeier Cc: Christer Holmberg , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000095ed30587ec6e2c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 19:13:35 -0000 --000000000000095ed30587ec6e2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier wrote= : > > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad > server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates= ', > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions > we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any > candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (Thi= s > is Nils' suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). > > As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us wit= h > candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing u= s > with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help = in any of > these scenarios. > From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though. > > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which > we want to explicitly allow. > > > > True. > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in the > scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but al= so does > not send EOC. > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provid= e > candidate to get the timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t pr= ovide > host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for = ever > because of slow servers. > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility. > > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > > > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we > mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the > agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we c= an > then map that to an SDP answer. > > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like a= n > beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for th= at. I > think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. > Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin > signal. > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. --000000000000095ed30587ec6e2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils = Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com= > wrote:
=
>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't ex= pect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided the oth= er side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to st= art. I don't feel super strongly about this though.=C2=A0

>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0
Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in the = scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but also= does not send EOC.=C2=A0

The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

Correct= , but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So t= hat will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin = signal.

The answer in some ways is an e= xplicit begin signal, because it contains the username/password information= needed to start ICE checks.=C2=A0
--000000000000095ed30587ec6e2c-- From nobody Thu May 2 12:22:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6FD1200F8 for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHI7equvvu3x for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52603120075 for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id k19so1511427pgh.0 for ; Thu, 02 May 2019 12:22:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=IRvLwkEKBwl08nyZdBNPTUEwMMZVH6Szqfg1Wu/+Gqw=; b=ICVZN2KKl8Z5FssFJnhF/dAYA0IdsuDteQvla+iLB0+anOBZ58uZZNyLeaQhXHFRHd lcfUYx89He3uRAJWGm6wBg7Jnv04vAjQ+MAG06FhOAZ7pcA6HcZsZjEMK2stTfyJY18R LmF7ZtwEq/OUsLYZ+AAE3Szz1Xn5KQLCSgEGo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=IRvLwkEKBwl08nyZdBNPTUEwMMZVH6Szqfg1Wu/+Gqw=; b=ZZTKf8VNhNYPGtAjKFJhaD/xwl87F9DdA2PtCBKXtygEfSW3EWB4i0DB9BThOQ2cGA RYoAZBdFT/3/stPUpLy56ZW9MnfS8jTKsEfJwaBSDRaa7F+gEaYR+XqbpLwvZT8qwgR1 djUKSkXG0EDNfRaAW2hwZx4cTbUgKmFlPvlT8zlO63ZMKxh0JCJCjX3t2LIAmKYlZEzv YsQOSAwCjxBhGoyC3jMNo1Eo3Tt6JpNSZshYoEDqclIENJkmdCsmJJTHh+YfYg2lFR4J Ej2A14p7mPmdFOyG3yDiZi+HI/V9uej9H8V0hDyOAHQbB/8YF0SqZTnRKPX3BBnab59z aH0A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWldYPvHMjquPe04tc5/QdxCc+wBdRTozyXbAe/RHcDQNZQrmVD qh1UzQ3gdr1qcZ+Gzlqaim/+1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyHK/5EsdWdUjzeNBhzyoo2OUaUBkoKb1g/BpRnYR/o7NFuYGT/wC3Dkh/wEL3nnaFlE5kxFg== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9095:: with SMTP id i21mr6257574pfa.134.1556824925387; Thu, 02 May 2019 12:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4600:3f31:2dab:9212:1aa4:b41a? ([2601:647:4600:3f31:2dab:9212:1aa4:b41a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l4sm39466pgh.17.2019.05.02.12.22.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 May 2019 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Nils Ohlmeier Message-Id: <4F57FAE8-7E87-43D4-96CE-2AC21C239BEB@mozilla.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4554C891-62B6-4E87-BADB-C3A11C0E76DE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 12:22:02 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Christer Holmberg , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" To: Justin Uberti References: <3A66B735-03C9-41FF-95AD-500B0D469C80@ericsson.com> <30518269-CA9D-4F50-8CE3-062A01DBCD7F@mozilla.com> <0AD3077C-74FA-4585-942A-375B83B3A7A0@ericsson.com> <46390078-DE3B-456B-87AC-61AE3C3DF035@ericsson.com> <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> <0928C15F-E7F4-405B-BBBB-2ECD35BD621D@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 19:22:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4554C891-62B6-4E87-BADB-C3A11C0E76DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: >=20 > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad = server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of = candidates',=20 > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential = positions we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any = candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). >=20 > As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us = with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) = providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option = c) would help in any of these scenarios. > =46rom my point of view we should choose either a) or b). >=20 > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive = prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a = candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't = feel super strongly about this though.=20 Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a = stronger a) I guess it would be okay. I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because = it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop = problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either = b) or c)? >=20 > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, = which we want to explicitly allow.=20 > >=20 > > True.=20 > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in = the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates = but also does not send EOC.=20 >=20 > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to = provide candidate to get the timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t = provide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates = take for ever because of slow servers. >=20 > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or = not. So that will always be a possibility.=20 Fair enough. >=20 > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > >=20 > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what = we mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes = the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp = we can then map that to an SDP answer. >=20 > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something = like an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit = signal for that. I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an = extra signal like that. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit = from an explicit begin signal. >=20 > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it = contains the username/password information needed to start ICE checks.=20= Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using = the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating = function/signal. Best Nils --Apple-Mail=_4554C891-62B6-4E87-BADB-C3A11C0E76DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> = wrote:



On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils = Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:

>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a = bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of = candidates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential = positions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of = any candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote = EOC). (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us = with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) = providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option = c) would help in any of these scenarios.
=46rom my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to = receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side = with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. = I don't feel super strongly about this = though. 

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So = c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we = stopped doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind = would it cause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to = choose to implement either b) or c)?


>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any = candidates, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True. 
Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in = the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates = but also does not send EOC. 

The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to = provide candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t = provide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates = take for ever because of slow servers.

Correct, but we can't = control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So that will always = be a possibility. 

Fair enough.


>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what = we mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes = the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp = we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like = an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal = for that. I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra = signal like that. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from = an explicit begin signal.

The answer in some ways is an explicit = begin signal, because it contains the username/password information = needed to start ICE checks. 

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99= t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using the availability = sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signal.

Best
  Nils

= --Apple-Mail=_4554C891-62B6-4E87-BADB-C3A11C0E76DE-- From nobody Thu May 2 12:28:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD831120108 for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:28:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zVhyndHMMPGq for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2435312008F for ; Thu, 2 May 2019 12:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id j14so2722849ioj.4 for ; Thu, 02 May 2019 12:28:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fBW8g/HxlFw29X4XtdfE1jxWC3E+TcwxRR2YzbJozEA=; b=HCZD2MeXJlhZu1q2qNalUxlkZwovFQIyAf+x3kuePi9mx4ZBgNpxWPmwdDmT3vYdso osSuU+CneKjB3EWhxvtKG/7xtzkkD+qYIsLoNsLnQkYmh51aiaJhCxd1PxZO31BfUfsF FIIxqjFuMGQ3Kv4HPE45CpRA+xoCtG+buV8o7J7yp3TgLkHpy9WkxVgS7lMb66/43Kg/ bww4qxlsIiM64lq468icoUzDzjP7h+pkpm5SMwdha+hLtMf8KGtydwWOMaa1vCSlgUz0 AELPy1Si0D9MzFqcQqSDbuGNAdwyrR7IN7ybGe5oD/dMNsTNWVpiHkUBlAr0MFhcoN+J X2ZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fBW8g/HxlFw29X4XtdfE1jxWC3E+TcwxRR2YzbJozEA=; b=h3even4ZdzzNxqNNUlmwodN2rU8e2aN/7RB/pTi6ojuWAdjLqCBqyZs2bdsoTaTBit /9srf4g8hAcr55MrojTx0dw/jotF+zk+ilTonOVtFrY+lMQY2Z7N7y4mH4tmM73ejPRI 8bVOfh+HDwuc+G0UF0/hr5JDWoR1blz4HAodzP/Sn6v4KXPTBGCJPcnO46aDNeYrVH4G 3TeRLFZDUyLh1KkQRcaY/0cglYB+SpfdsU4rz4TkusxCgWb75wbgx5gmrYlaWgyeISkL El1kGKnU8593eA2xhubm5xmJJB6Ih4/vRA6vYmmK8OXeZcHpk1sM3f1JwN45ZiBQmOH4 hAeA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/hOM3L4TuVc/f7p8kMO7vEXwNPxbshr1DmbtBfpWvTA+U1UC6 9uA0FM0+EXZfQuMuNszQVXYBrqvbzsH4CkBiMP9Gow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwtPcDfYCQ8+L0foqSeWUm7ctKjUloCaUAMWy6u7zAoFOFuyZiBKOXU2Y7tDNhpZGbTt+r1E0/devzIey+gzzE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:55:: with SMTP id z21mr3847095ioz.101.1556825325012; Thu, 02 May 2019 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3A66B735-03C9-41FF-95AD-500B0D469C80@ericsson.com> <30518269-CA9D-4F50-8CE3-062A01DBCD7F@mozilla.com> <0AD3077C-74FA-4585-942A-375B83B3A7A0@ericsson.com> <46390078-DE3B-456B-87AC-61AE3C3DF035@ericsson.com> <156839B0-C680-4F8F-8D93-8F6B33FB8F01@ericsson.com> <0928C15F-E7F4-405B-BBBB-2ECD35BD621D@mozilla.com> <4F57FAE8-7E87-43D4-96CE-2AC21C239BEB@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <4F57FAE8-7E87-43D4-96CE-2AC21C239BEB@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 12:28:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nils Ohlmeier Cc: Christer Holmberg , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a06ac0587eca428" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 19:28:49 -0000 --0000000000007a06ac0587eca428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier wrote= : > > > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > >> >> >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad >> server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidate= s', >> >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential position= s >> we can take are: >> >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any >> candidates. >> >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). >> (This is Nils' suggestion). >> >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). >> >> As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us >> with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) >> providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option = c) would >> help in any of these scenarios. >> From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). >> > > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive > prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a > candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't > feel super strongly about this though. > > > Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronger= a) I > guess it would be okay. > > I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it > caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problem= s > if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)? > I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more? > > >> >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, whic= h >> we want to explicitly allow. >> > >> > True. >> > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in th= e >> scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but a= lso does >> not send EOC. > > >> The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provi= de >> candidate to get the timer started soon. >> I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t p= rovide >> host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for= ever >> because of slow servers. >> > > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. > So that will always be a possibility. > > > Fair enough. > > >> >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. >> > >> > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we >> mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes th= e >> agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we = can >> then map that to an SDP answer. >> >> Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like >> an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal fo= r that. I >> think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that= . >> Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin >> signal. >> > > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains > the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. > > > Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using t= he > availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signa= l. > > Best > Nils > > --0000000000007a06ac0587eca428 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils = Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com= > wrote:
=


On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:
=


On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Oh= lmeier <nohlm= eier@mozilla.com> wrote:

>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't ex= pect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided the oth= er side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to st= art. I don't feel super strongly about this though.=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it fro= m that angle. So c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing= a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause in= terop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement eit= her b) or c)?

I'd be fine w= ith that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Can you expla= in a bit more?=C2=A0


>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0
Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in the = scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but also= does not send EOC.=C2=A0

The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

Correct= , but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So t= hat will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

Fair enough.

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin = signal.

The answer in some ways is an e= xplicit begin signal, because it contains the username/password information= needed to start ICE checks.=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply befo= re hitting send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as = the minimum gating function/signal.

Best
=C2=A0 Nils

--0000000000007a06ac0587eca428-- From nobody Fri May 3 05:00:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD376120071 for ; Fri, 3 May 2019 05:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zf9r1yxFizn2 for ; Fri, 3 May 2019 05:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr130084.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.13.84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03C7C12004A for ; Fri, 3 May 2019 05:00:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2/tmEXjc9scRtQvDpeYuQIBZY0O0uUP8v10Wc5uC1Ak=; b=DefVOszNQUhpxUIqL+5LbjvlyurKoIjtV3HpC8oBQlpzvIIjFCF6V+bqKypOi83bFJoDQZfhkB3lvFsAPVMycwtYV7eZ8wUwvSykaGeBH2Z9qVog6riZ49gF7yazPudw9MuIVgFDIx1jfYZi38y+9yWfd/6F817SseE1SBo7OA0= Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.170.245.23) by HE1PR07MB3404.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.170.247.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1878.11; Fri, 3 May 2019 12:00:12 +0000 Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c999:f848:9abc:d321]) by HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c999:f848:9abc:d321%6]) with mapi id 15.20.1856.008; Fri, 3 May 2019 12:00:12 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: Justin Uberti , Nils Ohlmeier CC: Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? 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