From nobody Mon Jul 1 17:56:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B521A1200CE for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:56:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPEDQ786ycTZ for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B13E12009C for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id r3so2292570vsr.13 for ; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 17:56:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6dJLJNoJ0Onuyv+JPUy6RPgQOLlZGOp9M1c9gHXNJq0=; b=NeoDpo/jt68v/JzM4/WiAcQrVsr3rTKe/VEWXxBn18z0RlG1NSJvj7lGOcaGAnjjD9 fh6YU/wXx6CE/l2KhkDp3KTxKbmdS/pGYVl0dcX3mqA9dtZe5/vPWmDAXnhtu+pMD6MD tUA5l/4fSTi5rFBAfoGjdte6WpcDIUPe9nhrv+FOJEiDtRLZthjhMQz4JteBwfNLB4IJ Eg26Kxp2dQnqJPEovXb3n+TBR9r7KGy9eZ8Uk+rGNaPYUTOc3S9CHWziHjRTcswVzbs7 bX9+0DLMbZ9kviAZOn/AiomqPux6VcwA1Tx55YjgtoElZr/BHw+bEfPdQJdDp3cc+D1K Whiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6dJLJNoJ0Onuyv+JPUy6RPgQOLlZGOp9M1c9gHXNJq0=; b=JZ6VLCBrIJtSbEkf3DeAep99/l2EPyJH85a4qWBMnto+JxOEC16M+9FlnbAEhNQ7YM rcR5RWhYdEHKW1G+SuiyXGh2bdWnN9hZj6NEpMVNKXNuqruzdzJC6cQjjreFJrqEZCyn 5QWHGjuZfP9B3XS6eBtLdwiK3+UhpVBQE1QUSHkfdReFwv1rt3NTZYrgkGJBHnMwNJiq j/HQFj/aMvpukeN6G/p91yuhyr5MMPoOeUEpAt66K6BFYoJIdW0v/xxPTMl9MejwiVcW pPOZkWDTdJBwhvz3SCeKLreNjqDWf5nSe78uc5O6wnh2QEy4pwEMIK0Ld7qF60PGZXDH d4hw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVF2jYI4dYco+C3LLcuJdzpKU/oNcfbIGiOl1j2WJcOA9+FSt1A iZ2MrwoHUzCxTyzzuiJjmB/qoUrN5Kr9WVFWrYHiXQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz9bxInr48c1W5TErJeJuLVWH6YxLGabHP9BlinFkJ4ouFWP2Nv4Ha3JNAuvx3a2tUZeW7mjTPue9LEt1WGP2s= X-Received: by 2002:a67:d48b:: with SMTP id g11mr16000149vsj.63.1562029011699; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 17:56:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> From: Peter Thatcher Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:56:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Harald Alvestrand Cc: Christer Holmberg , Justin Uberti , Nils Ohlmeier , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005f54d3058ca8387b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 00:56:58 -0000 --0000000000005f54d3058ca8387b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree. The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should move ahead with them. On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A > > I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage a > decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing! > > > > Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to start= the > timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it. > > > It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to act > when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined". > > That's my requirement :-) > > > > > Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the > duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc. > > I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number > that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer wh= en > adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started > will lead to hard-to-define behavior). > > > But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic time= r > mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now i= s > better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no > fundamental changes, 6 months from now. > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Harald Alvestrand > *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > , Justin Uberti > , Nils Ohlmeier > > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > We need to move forward with this. > > > > There are two main questions at the moment: > > > > 1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" > timer, based on previous discussions)? > 2. What is the duration of the timer? > > > > Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), > which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer) = at > least one local candidate (or EOC). > > > > > > Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same a= s > the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think that is > enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used? > > > > Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of > Christer Holmberg > > *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 > *To: *Justin Uberti , Nils > Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > Hi, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the e= nd of the > day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing > that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early. > > > > And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not, > it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as = possible, > depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending > candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for the= m. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti > *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 > *To: *Nils Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg > , Roman Shpount > , "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad > server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates= ', > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions > we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any > candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (Thi= s > is Nils' suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). > > As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us wit= h > candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing u= s > with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help = in any of > these scenarios. > From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). > > > > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive > prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a > candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't > feel super strongly about this though. > > > > Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronger= a) I > guess it would be okay. > > > > I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it > caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problem= s > if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)? > > > > I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Ca= n > you explain a bit more? > > > > > > > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which > we want to explicitly allow. > > > > True. > > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in th= e > scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but al= so does > not send EOC. > > > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provid= e > candidate to get the timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t pr= ovide > host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for = ever > because of slow servers. > > > > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. > So that will always be a possibility. > > > > Fair enough. > > > > > > > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > > > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we > mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the > agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we c= an > then map that to an SDP answer. > > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like a= n > beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for th= at. I > think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. > Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin > signal. > > > > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains > the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. > > > > Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using t= he > availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signa= l. > > > > Best > > Nils > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ice mailing list > > Ice@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --0000000000005f54d3058ca8387b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree.=C2=A0 The options you present seem reasonable and= I think we should move ahead with them.

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Har= ald Alvestrand <harald@alvestran= d.no> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 6/24/19 12= :06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hi,

=C2=A0

Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is = not a good thing!

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), eventhoug= h it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to start the timer when= the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it.


It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined".

That's my requirement :-)


=C2=A0

Regarding 2), however, = I would really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc.=

I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer when adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started will lead to hard-to-define behavior).


But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic timer mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no fundamental changes, 6 months from now.


=C2=A0

Regards,<= /span>

=C2=A0

Christer<= /span>

=C2=A0

From: Harald Alve= strand <harald@alvestra= nd.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <chris= ter.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.co= m>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozi= lla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

We need to move forward with this.

=C2=A0<= u>

There are two main questions at the moment:

=C2=A0<= u>

  1. When does an endpoint start the t= imer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previo= us discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer= ?

=C2=A0<= u>

Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

=C2=A0

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Regards,

=C2=A0<= u>

Christer

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

From: Ice &= lt;ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier = <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice= @ietf.org" <ice@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think= there will be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

=C2=A0<= u>

And, no matter whethe= r an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not, =C2=A0it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as = soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.

=C2=A0<= u>

Regards,

=C2=A0<= u>

Christer

=C2=A0<= u>

From: Justin Ub= erti <= ;juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>= ;, Roman Shpount <= roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:

=C2=A0





On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t= see how option c) would help in any of these scenarios.
From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

=C2=A0

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at i= t from that angle. So c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

=C2=A0

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?=

=C2=A0

I'd be fine with that, but I'= ;d want to describe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?=C2=A0






>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0

Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates bu= t also does not send EOC.=C2=A0=


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide candidate to get the timer started soon. I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t provide ho= st candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or r= elay candidates take for ever because of slow servers.

=C2=A0

Correct, but we can= 9;t control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fair enough.






>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we mean by "answer". I guess it mean= s some kind of indication that makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t = have an explicit signal for that. I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

=C2=A0

The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE checks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your r= eply before hitting send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signal.

=C2=A0

Best

=C2=A0 Nils

=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.o=
rg
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.


--=
=20
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
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[209.85.214.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v4sm3306459pff.45.2019.07.03.13.38.37 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Jul 2019 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id a93so1843811pla.7 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 13:38:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:20c8:: with SMTP id v8mr44697106plg.284.1562186316797; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 16:38:25 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand , Justin Uberti , Nils Ohlmeier , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c5c17058cccd892" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 20:38:49 -0000 --0000000000007c5c17058cccd892 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christer, All we are doing here is a solution which is better then existing situation but still not ideal. No matter how we set the timer or when we start it, there are going to be situations when ICE nomination fails when it should have succeeded if it waited longer. In practice it does not matter, if call setup does not complete in 39.5 seconds (default STUN BIND request timeout), caller would likely give up much earlier then that. So, to summarize, if ICE nomination does not fail for default STUN BIND request timeout from the time first candidate or EOC was received from the remote, solution will be good enough. If you do want something that works correctly with large signaling delays, long TURN server allocation times, and arbitrary number of candidates or streams, then what is needed is an additional signaling exchange that negotiates that ICE nomination is complete and unused candidate can be released. Something where controlling agent sends a signaling message asking if ICE nomination is done and controlled agent responding true or false. When response is true, ICE nomination is complete and unused candidates can be removed. This message can be sent on timer and can be combined with trickle ICE. However, I think we have decided previously that this was out of scope. Best Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 4:02 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > So, what timer value do people want? > > > > And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of > streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested all pai= rs > for all streams? I think we need to specify that. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Peter Thatcher > *Sent:* 02 July 2019 03:56 > *To:* Harald Alvestrand > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; Justin Uberti < > juberti@google.com>; Nils Ohlmeier ; Roman Shpount > ; ice@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > I agree. The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should > move ahead with them. > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand > wrote: > > On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A > > I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage a > decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing! > > > > Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to start= the > timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it. > > > > It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to act > when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined". > > That's my requirement :-) > > > > > > Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the > duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc. > > I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number > that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer wh= en > adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started > will lead to hard-to-define behavior). > > > > But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic time= r > mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now i= s > better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no > fundamental changes, 6 months from now. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Harald Alvestrand > *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > , Justin Uberti > , Nils Ohlmeier > > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > We need to move forward with this. > > > > There are two main questions at the moment: > > > > 1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" > timer, based on previous discussions)? > 2. What is the duration of the timer? > > > > Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), > which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer) = at > least one local candidate (or EOC). > > > > > > Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same a= s > the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think that is > enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used? > > > > Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of > Christer Holmberg > > *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 > *To: *Justin Uberti , Nils > Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > Hi, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the e= nd of the > day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing > that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early. > > > > And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not, > it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as = possible, > depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending > candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for the= m. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti > *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 > *To: *Nils Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg > , Roman Shpount > , "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > > > > > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad > server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates= ', > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions > we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any > candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (Thi= s > is Nils' suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). > > As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us wit= h > candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing u= s > with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help = in any of > these scenarios. > From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). > > > > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive > prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a > candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't > feel super strongly about this though. > > > > Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronger= a) I > guess it would be okay. > > > > I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it > caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problem= s > if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)? > > > > I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Ca= n > you explain a bit more? > > > > > > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which > we want to explicitly allow. > > > > True. > > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in th= e > scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but al= so does > not send EOC. > > > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provid= e > candidate to get the timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t pr= ovide > host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for = ever > because of slow servers. > > > > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. > So that will always be a possibility. > > > > Fair enough. > > > > > > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > > > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we > mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the > agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we c= an > then map that to an SDP answer. > > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like a= n > beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for th= at. I > think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. > Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin > signal. > > > > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains > the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. > > > > Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using t= he > availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signa= l. > > > > Best > > Nils > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ice mailing list > > Ice@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --0000000000007c5c17058cccd892 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christer,

All we are doing here is a so= lution which is better then existing situation but still not ideal. No matt= er how we set the timer or when we start it, there are going to be situatio= ns when ICE nomination fails when it should have succeeded if it waited lon= ger. In practice it does not matter, if call setup does not complete in 39.= 5 seconds (default STUN BIND request timeout), caller would likely give up = much earlier then that. So, to summarize, if ICE nomination does not fail f= or default STUN BIND request timeout from the time first candidate or EOC w= as received from the remote, solution will be good enough.

If you do want something that works correctly with large signaling= delays, long TURN server allocation times, and arbitrary number of candida= tes or streams, then what is needed is an additional signaling exchange tha= t negotiates that ICE nomination is complete and unused candidate can be re= leased. Something where controlling agent sends a signaling message asking = if ICE nomination is done and controlled agent responding true or false. Wh= en response is true, ICE nomination is complete and unused candidates can b= e removed. This message can be sent on timer and can be combined with trick= le ICE. However, I think we have decided previously that this was out of sc= ope.

Best Regards,
_____= ________
Roman Shpount


On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 4:02 = PM Christer Holmberg <= christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

So, what timer value do people want?=

=C2=A0

And, assuming the timer value is not going to = be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the timer expires befor= e we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Sent: 02 July 2019 03:56
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Justin Ub= erti <juberti@go= ogle.com>; Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>; Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>;= ice@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

I agree.=C2=A0 The options you present seem reasonab= le and I think we should move ahead with them.

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand &l= t;harald@alvestra= nd.no> wrote:

On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:=

Hi,

=C2=A0

Go for what? =F0=9F=98= =8A

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage = a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing= !

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2= =80=99s not my personal preference to start the timer when the first offer/= answer is sent, I could live with it.

=C2=A0

It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has t= o act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undef= ined".

That's my requirement :-)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), however, I would = really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the= number of streams, components etc.

I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number = that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer = when adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer starte= d will lead to hard-to-define behavior).

=C2=A0

But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic tim= er mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now = is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no = fundamental changes, 6 months from now.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:<= u>

Hi,

=C2=A0

We need to move forward with th= is.

=C2=A0

There are two main questions at= the moment:

=C2=A0

  1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-t= ime-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer?

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), my understanding = is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpo= int has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), it has been sugge= sted that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectiv= ity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

=C2=A0

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mo= zilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think there wil= l be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about h= ow long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

=C2=A0

And, no matter whether an agent= knows that the peer supports PAC or not, =C2=A0it should aim at sending it= =E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates = just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:

=C2=A0




On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>= wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

=C2=A0

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can= 9;t expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided t= he other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. S= o c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

=C2=A0

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stoppe= d doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it c= ause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?

=C2=A0

I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to descr= ibe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?=C2=A0<= /p>





>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0

Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is= only a problem in the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send = any candidates but also does not send EOC.=C2=A0


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

=C2=A0

Correct, but we can't control which endpoints wi= ll send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fair enough.





>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

=C2=A0

The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal,= because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE = checks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting = send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum= gating function/signal.

=C2=A0

Best

=C2=A0 Nils

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org<=
/u>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

--0000000000007c5c17058cccd892-- From nobody Wed Jul 3 21:22:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933801200F6 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 21:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0mE7IrwXbtPU for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 21:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 950991200C7 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 21:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id m17so373033vkl.2 for ; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 21:22:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=o2xRWiPQ4CdveTN/MYb8TJNq7HPBeaG1cHSqafgvetM=; b=Ygx8rd826MftbAfOVdKp2byNqrMEvAujz10oKq/iyS7vhriib0rtQv/8tHUnf2/7ti v2Dmv4B4iNmJ+HUqKU443tfCyVRcO4/4b8DBmFHl5hIIGbK139Txyj/ZxLJ0efmRZH0M piOdJH9mQsDQgZxfeLbCIhaxuYkHJQxHpJLyZ7OqORJUNhF+VxaR5PWsfNfAS9I+QlN4 SerkINqxn9kZbe/ywfslCDN90ncph6xzIZ8N24qkCvwRgVJjwKD+r2a6U9dCfYG9JWrf 2/WSsg0pxewy7cCbBwFkAr0FObyO7QK39jB0XegscQtCxBDzcW3pxG2Zku5F8qBqLUq/ MxEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=o2xRWiPQ4CdveTN/MYb8TJNq7HPBeaG1cHSqafgvetM=; b=EJuIUSfCoryyNspMErfdWHhEJJ/0zU2xwtUwsP/C5gwWR1I8JLFljPLTOpf/jIQp3l tgbFAk0KN4zH8Bc/MMDhtWCpCSChDDQ18Z6FtUcbUavolMgFrDhq7kA6f/P2b4xTK94k e6NM0iGVbZykwOdpjgU3senXvzA3fF1rGKafJL7Hz8o5rKUb3ywJSFFNcUcIPuKnOuXP uyyBgU5gg3WkoT5ItMuJC54cIMYcvYvEdO3C46bgpik3ShhRmFZD8+uJRJxM/1JuY/tk M4Spe9l7vMLOKYf9jENPEJwOyE1W8yHaRrMhjbHAlYQPdwCBTozzxzIvnY0uAA7I2ZJi BV7g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXX5HC0xK6b4k2O8PkP8ZqqXyLlD700z2EcPGIMPvj8xwL7Hs3E ADfBbpacr9FCfnOC8tlQ60/0C1DPB3HAtO5M4nvjjg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwwFlMVs9lSCT8YNSxjStSmv+pO9m9+CS+2/btqiBjhPrkH44y4wiAYzXqXJKe4S49L5l18Bc7V5oe+7+NozJo= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:144:: with SMTP id 65mr1591124vkb.53.1562214141995; Wed, 03 Jul 2019 21:22:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 21:22:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand , Nils Ohlmeier , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ffbc64058cd352e4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 04:22:27 -0000 --000000000000ffbc64058cd352e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For #1, I don't think the proposed solution is correct. The "alternative c)" that I proposed is to "Start the timer as soon as we have received a remote offer or answer and have also sent a local candidate to the remote side", which is different than what is mentioned in the OP. The rationale for this is: A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until we get a remote offer/answer with ICE credentials B) we can't receive an incoming check that could create a prflx candidate unless we sent a candidate to the remote side Tracking this issue in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/12. For #2, I agree we should use the "max duration of a connectivity check transaction". I think this value will work just fine in real world scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have tested all pairs (this can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no connectivity to each other), we just resume existing ICE processing, and fail when everything moves to the failed state (i.e., every pair has timed out). The timer is simply there to prevent premature failures. Tracking in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/13 On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > So, what timer value do people want? > > > > And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of > streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested all pai= rs > for all streams? I think we need to specify that. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Peter Thatcher > *Sent:* 02 July 2019 03:56 > *To:* Harald Alvestrand > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; Justin Uberti < > juberti@google.com>; Nils Ohlmeier ; Roman Shpount > ; ice@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > I agree. The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should > move ahead with them. > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand > wrote: > > On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A > > I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage a > decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing! > > > > Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to start= the > timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it. > > > > It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to act > when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined". > > That's my requirement :-) > > > > > > Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the > duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc. > > I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number > that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer wh= en > adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started > will lead to hard-to-define behavior). > > > > But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic time= r > mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now i= s > better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no > fundamental changes, 6 months from now. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Harald Alvestrand > *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > , Justin Uberti > , Nils Ohlmeier > > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > We need to move forward with this. > > > > There are two main questions at the moment: > > > > 1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" > timer, based on previous discussions)? > 2. What is the duration of the timer? > > > > Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), > which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer) = at > least one local candidate (or EOC). > > > > > > Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same a= s > the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think that is > enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used? > > > > Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of > Christer Holmberg > > *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 > *To: *Justin Uberti , Nils > Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > Hi, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the e= nd of the > day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing > that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early. > > > > And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not, > it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as = possible, > depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending > candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for the= m. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti > *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 > *To: *Nils Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg > , Roman Shpount > , "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > > > > > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad > server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates= ', > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions > we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any > candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (Thi= s > is Nils' suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). > > As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us wit= h > candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing u= s > with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help = in any of > these scenarios. > From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). > > > > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive > prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a > candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't > feel super strongly about this though. > > > > Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronger= a) I > guess it would be okay. > > > > I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it > caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problem= s > if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)? > > > > I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Ca= n > you explain a bit more? > > > > > > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which > we want to explicitly allow. > > > > True. > > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in th= e > scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but al= so does > not send EOC. > > > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provid= e > candidate to get the timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t pr= ovide > host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for = ever > because of slow servers. > > > > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. > So that will always be a possibility. > > > > Fair enough. > > > > > > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > > > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we > mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the > agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we c= an > then map that to an SDP answer. > > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like a= n > beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for th= at. I > think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. > Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin > signal. > > > > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains > the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. > > > > Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using t= he > availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signa= l. > > > > Best > > Nils > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ice mailing list > > Ice@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --000000000000ffbc64058cd352e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For #1, I don't think the proposed solution is co= rrect. The "alternative c)" that I proposed is to "Start the= timer as soon as we have received a remote offer or answer and have also s= ent a local candidate to the remote side", which is different than wha= t is mentioned in the OP.

The rationale for this i= s:
A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until we get= a remote offer/answer with ICE credentials
B) we can't recei= ve an incoming check that could create a prflx candidate unless we sent a c= andidate to the remote side


For #= 2, I agree we should use the "max duration of a connectivity check tra= nsaction". I think this value will work just fine in real world scenar= ios. And if the timer expires before we have tested all pairs (this can cer= tainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no connectivity to each other)= , we just resume existing ICE processing, and fail when everything moves to= the failed state (i.e., every pair has timed out). The timer is simply the= re to prevent premature failures.

=
On Wed= , Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

So, what timer value do people want?=

=C2=A0

And, assuming the timer value is not going to = be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the timer expires befor= e we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Sent: 02 July 2019 03:56
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Justin Ub= erti <juberti@go= ogle.com>; Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>; Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>;= ice@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

I agree.=C2=A0 The options you present seem reasonab= le and I think we should move ahead with them.

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand &l= t;harald@alvestra= nd.no> wrote:

On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:=

Hi,

=C2=A0

Go for what? =F0=9F=98= =8A

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage = a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing= !

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2= =80=99s not my personal preference to start the timer when the first offer/= answer is sent, I could live with it.

=C2=A0

It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has t= o act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undef= ined".

That's my requirement :-)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), however, I would = really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the= number of streams, components etc.

I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number = that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer = when adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer starte= d will lead to hard-to-define behavior).

=C2=A0

But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic tim= er mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now = is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no = fundamental changes, 6 months from now.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:<= u>

Hi,

=C2=A0

We need to move forward with th= is.

=C2=A0

There are two main questions at= the moment:

=C2=A0

  1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-t= ime-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer?

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), my understanding = is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpo= int has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), it has been sugge= sted that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectiv= ity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

=C2=A0

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mo= zilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think there wil= l be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about h= ow long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

=C2=A0

And, no matter whether an agent= knows that the peer supports PAC or not, =C2=A0it should aim at sending it= =E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates = just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:

=C2=A0




On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>= wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

=C2=A0

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can= 9;t expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided t= he other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. S= o c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

=C2=A0

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stoppe= d doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it c= ause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?

=C2=A0

I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to descr= ibe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?=C2=A0<= /p>





>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0

Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is= only a problem in the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send = any candidates but also does not send EOC.=C2=A0


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

=C2=A0

Correct, but we can't control which endpoints wi= ll send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fair enough.





>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

=C2=A0

The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal,= because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE = checks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting = send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum= gating function/signal.

=C2=A0

Best

=C2=A0 Nils

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org<=
/u>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

_______________________________________________
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htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------36F1C44D4D0DBA2244BE4AA2" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 07:28:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------36F1C44D4D0DBA2244BE4AA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/3/19 10:02 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > So, what timer value do people want? > Any number significantly larger than zero will improve the current situation. I think 30.5 seconds was mentioned - that's a fine number to me. >   > > And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number > of streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested > all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that. > Exactly what we do today. If I interpret the situation correctly, the timer is to catch the state when we don't have remote candidates to try, so if the timer expires while we have remote candidates to try, we will just go on trying them; if the timer expires when we have no remote candidates, we go to "failed" state, exactly as we do today. >   > > Regards, > >   > > Christer > >   > > *From:*Peter Thatcher > *Sent:* 02 July 2019 03:56 > *To:* Harald Alvestrand > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; Justin > Uberti ; Nils Ohlmeier ; > Roman Shpount ; ice@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > >   > > I agree.  The options you present seem reasonable and I think we > should move ahead with them. > >   > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand > > wrote: > > On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > >   > > Go for what? 😊 > > I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should > encoruage a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a > good thing! > >   > > Regarding 1), eventhough it’s not my personal preference to > start the timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could > live with it. > >   > > It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has > to act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than > "undefined". > > That's my requirement :-) > >   > >   > > Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on > whether the duration should be independent of the number of > streams, components etc. > > I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex > number that could change over time (for instance, if we don't > reset the timer when adding streams, then adding or removing > streams after the timer started will lead to hard-to-define behavior). > >   > > But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the > basic timer mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to > implement from now is better than having a spec that has had > slightly more discussion, but no fundamental changes, 6 months > from now. > >   > >   > > Regards, > >   > > Christer > >   > > *From: *Harald Alvestrand > > *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > , Justin Uberti > , Nils > Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Roman Shpount > , "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting > for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > >   > > On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > >   > > We need to move forward with this. > >   > > There are two main questions at the moment: > >   > > 1. When does an endpoint start the timer > ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous > discussions)? > 2. What is the duration of the timer? > >   > > Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest > alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpoint > has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local > candidate (or EOC). > >   > >   > > Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration > would be the same as the max duration of a connectivity > check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter > how many media streams and components are used? > >   > > Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. > >   > >   > > Regards, > >   > > Christer > >   > >   > >   > >   > >   > >   > >   > >   > >   > > *From: *Ice > on behalf of Christer > Holmberg > > *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 > *To: *Justin Uberti > , Nils Ohlmeier > > *Cc: *Roman Shpount > , "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer > waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? > >   > > Hi, > >   > > I don’t think there will be any interoperability issues. > At the end of the day PAC is only about how long to wait > for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than > an agent declares ICE failure too early. > >   > > And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer > supports PAC or not,  it should aim at sending it’s > candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on > whatever local policies. The agent should not delay > sending candidates just because it assumes that the peer > will anyway wait for them. > >   > > Regards, > >   > > Christer > >   > > *From: *Justin Uberti > > *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 > *To: *Nils Ohlmeier > > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg > , Roman Shpount > , > "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer > waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? > >   > >   > >   > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier > > wrote: > >   > > > > > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti > > > wrote: > >   > >   > >   > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > > wrote: > > > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, > i.e., if we have a bad server it will take a > very long time to decide on 'last set of > candidates', > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I > think the potential positions we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an > answer, regardless of any candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote > candidate (or remote EOC). (This is Nils' > suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local > candidate (or local EOC). > > As we are mostly concerned about the remote > side: 1) not providing us with candidates, or > 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) > providing us with candidates really late I > don’t see how option c) would help in any of > these scenarios. > From my point of view we should choose either > a) or b). > >   > > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you > can't expect to receive prflx candidates until > you've at least provided the other side with a > candidate, so that may be the right time for the > timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about > this though.  > >   > > Ok. I hadn’t looked at it from that angle. So c) being > a stronger a) I guess it would be okay. > >   > > I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped > doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that > in mind would it cause interop problems if we leave up > to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)? > >   > > I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to > watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?  > > > > > > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't > send any candidates, which we want to > explicitly allow. > > > > True.  > > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: > b) is only a problem in the scenario where the > remote side doesn’t send any candidates but > also does not send EOC.  > > > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly > don’t want to provide candidate to get the > timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where > the remote doesn’t provide host candidates, > and it’s reflexive or relay candidates take > for ever because of slow servers. > >   > > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will > send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a > possibility.  > >   > > Fair enough. > > > > > > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest > option. > > > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we > need to to define what we mean by "answer". I > guess it means some kind of indication that > makes the agent assume that the remote peer > has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we can then > map that to an SDP answer. > > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer > here to be something like an beginning of ICE, > because we don’t have an explicit signal for > that. I think in SDP based worlds there is no > need for an extra signal like that. Not sure > if other use cases of ICE would benefit from > an explicit begin signal. > >   > > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin > signal, because it contains the username/password > information needed to start ICE checks.  > >   > > Yeah I didn’t see your reply before hitting send on > mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea > as the minimum gating function/signal. > >   > > Best > >   Nils > >   > >   > > _______________________________________________ > > Ice mailing list > > Ice@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > >   > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > >   > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------36F1C44D4D0DBA2244BE4AA2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 7/3/19 10:02 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:

So, what timer value do people want?

Any number significantly larger than zero will improve the current situation. I think 30.5 seconds was mentioned - that's a fine number to me.

 

And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that.


Exactly what we do today.

If I interpret the situation correctly, the timer is to catch the state when we don't have remote candidates to try, so if the timer expires while we have remote candidates to try, we will just go on trying them; if the timer expires when we have no remote candidates, we go to "failed" state, exactly as we do today.


 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Sent: 02 July 2019 03:56
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>; Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>; Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>; ice@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

 

I agree.  The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should move ahead with them.

 

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:

On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:

Hi,

 

Go for what? 😊

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing!

 

Regarding 1), eventhough it’s not my personal preference to start the timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it.

 

It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined".

That's my requirement :-)

 

 

Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc.

I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer when adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started will lead to hard-to-define behavior).

 

But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic timer mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no fundamental changes, 6 months from now.

 

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

 

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:

Hi,

 

We need to move forward with this.

 

There are two main questions at the moment:

 

  1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer?

 

Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).

 

 

Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

 

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.

 

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates?

 

Hi,

 

I don’t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

 

And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not,  it should aim at sending it’s candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates?

 

 

 

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:

 




On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:

 

 

 

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us with candidates really late I don’t see how option c) would help in any of these scenarios.
From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

 

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though. 

 

Ok. I hadn’t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

 

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?

 

I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more? 





>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True. 

Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in the scenario where the remote side doesn’t send any candidates but also does not send EOC. 


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don’t want to provide candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn’t provide host candidates, and it’s reflexive or relay candidates take for ever because of slow servers.

 

Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility. 

 

Fair enough.





>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an beginning of ICE, because we don’t have an explicit signal for that. I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

 

The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. 

 

Yeah I didn’t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signal.

 

Best

  Nils

 

 

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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB3113 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 12:17:05 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4+U28sIHdoYXQgdGltZXIgdmFsdWUgZG8gcGVvcGxlIHdhbnQ/DQo+DQo+QW55IG51 bWJlciBzaWduaWZpY2FudGx5IGxhcmdlciB0aGFuIHplcm8gd2lsbCBpbXByb3ZlIHRoZSBjdXJy ZW50IHNpdHVhdGlvbi4gSSB0aGluayAzMC41IHNlY29uZHMgd2FzIG1lbnRpb25lZCAtIHRoYXQn cyBhIGZpbmUgbnVtYmVyIHRvIG1lLg0KwqANCkkgYW0gbm90IHN1cmUgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdo YXQgeW91IG1lYW4gYnkgImxhcmdlciB0aGFuIHplcm8iLiBOb2JvZHkgdG9kYXkgZGVjbGFyZXMg SUNFIGZhaWx1cmUgYXQgdGhlIHNhbWUgdGltZSBhcyB0aGUgYmVnaW4gSUNFLCBkbyB0aGV5Pw0K DQo+PiBBbmQsIGFzc3VtaW5nIHRoZSB0aW1lciB2YWx1ZSBpcyBub3QgZ29pbmcgdG8gYmUgYmFz 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[209.85.215.173]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x9sm4086156pfn.177.2019.07.06.11.13.19 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 06 Jul 2019 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-f173.google.com with SMTP id m4so5656353pgk.0 for ; Sat, 06 Jul 2019 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b104:: with SMTP id z4mr12901132pjq.102.1562436799184; Sat, 06 Jul 2019 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 14:13:08 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Harald Alvestrand , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066453e058d072a1c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 18:13:24 -0000 --00000000000066453e058d072a1c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 8:17 AM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > >>So, what timer value do people want? > > > >Any number significantly larger than zero will improve the current > situation. I think 30.5 seconds was mentioned - that's a fine number to me. > > I am not sure I understand what you mean by "larger than zero". Nobody > today declares ICE failure at the same time as the begin ICE, do they? > This is exactly what happens and this what we are trying to fix. > >> And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of > streams, what do we do if the timer expires before > >> we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify > that. > > > > Exactly what we do today. > > If I interpret the situation correctly, the timer is to catch the state > when we don't have remote candidates to try, so if the timer > > expires while we have remote candidates to try, we will just go on > trying them; if the timer expires when we have no remote candidates, > > we go to "failed" state, exactly as we do today. > > In that case, why can't we start the timer once we don't have any remote > candidates left? > > Because, ff we DO have remote candidates, the timer is meaningless, > because if the timer expires we will ignore it and go on testing them. > If there are remote candidates to check, then ICE should continue checking them. Part of the problem is that when ICE is starting, it is unclear if remote candidate have not been received yet, no usable remote candidates where received, or remote candidates are not going to be sent at all. Also, checking remote candidates can end very quickly if remote candidates are unreachable (fail immediately with ICMP remote address unreachable message). _____________ Roman Shpount --00000000000066453e058d072a1c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 8:17 AM Ch= rister Holmberg <chris= ter.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>So,= what timer value do people want?
>
>Any number significantly larger than zero will improve the current situ= ation. I think 30.5 seconds was mentioned - that's a fine number to me.=
=C2=A0
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "larger than zero". N= obody today declares ICE failure at the same time as the begin ICE, do they= ?

This is exactly what happens and this= what we are trying to fix.
=C2=A0
>> And, assuming the timer value is not goin= g to be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the timer expires = before
>> we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to speci= fy that.
>
> Exactly what we do today.
> If I interpret the situation correctly, the timer is to catch the stat= e when we don't have remote candidates to try, so if the timer
> expires while we have remote candidates to try, we will just go on try= ing them; if the timer expires when we have no remote candidates,
> we go to "failed" state, exactly as we do today.

In that case, why can't we start the timer once we don't have any r= emote candidates left?

Because, ff we DO have remote candidates, the timer is meaningless, because= if the timer expires we will ignore it and go on testing them.

If there are remote candidates to check, then ICE = should continue checking them. Part of the problem is that when ICE is star= ting, it is unclear if remote candidate have not been received yet, no usab= le remote candidates where received, or remote candidates are not going to = be sent at all.=C2=A0 Also, checking remote candidates can end very quickly= if remote candidates are unreachable (fail immediately with ICMP remote ad= dress unreachable message).=C2=A0

_____________
Roma= n Shpount
=C2=A0
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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 07:25:58 -0000 On 7/6/19 11:50 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > Hi, > > ... > >> If there are remote candidates to check, then ICE should continue chec= king them. Part of the problem is that when ICE is starting, it is unclea= r=20 >> if remote candidate have not been received yet, no usable remote candi= dates where received, or remote candidates are not going to be sent=20 >> at all.=C2=A0 Also, checking remote candidates can end very quickly if= remote candidates are unreachable (fail immediately with ICMP remote add= ress unreachable message).=C2=A0 > Ok, let's assume we DO have remote candidates, and the timer expires. W= e discard the fact that the timer expires, and go on checking the remote = candidates, as you suggested. > > Then, at some point we have checked all remote candidates, but we have = NOT found successful pairs for all streams. So, since the timer already e= xpired, we declare ICE failure. > > I thought the whole idea was to still wait for some time after we have = tried all remote candidates, in case we will receive peer reflexive candi= dates, before we declare ICE failure. The scenario that I saw starting this debate was: - Offer/answer happens - Either some candidate pairs are formed, or no candidate pair are formed= - All the candidate pairs formed can be discarded very quickly (because they are the wrong protocol, or non-routable addresses) - Failure is declared - ICE BIND requests from the other side arrive, giving peer-reflexive candidates, but ICE connection is already closed The arrival time of the ICE BIND requests from the other side is independent of the length of the local candidate pair list, it depends on the length of the remote candidate pair list, which is unknowable on the local side. The most likely time is "really fast". > > But, as I said earlier, I am fine doing as you and others suggest. All = I am saying is that the draft needs to describe what to do if the timer e= xpires while there are still untested remote candidates. If the solution = is to discard the timer expiration, then it needs to be documented. Saying that the timer and pair testing proceeds in parallel is all that needs to be said, I think. Declaring failure requires BOTH the timer to have expired AND testing of candidate pairs to complete. The timer is a hack that can be applied by one side to fix the problem for the 99% case. A more architectural approach would be a way to pass (over the signalling channel) a message saying "I have now sent all the BIND requests I intend to send, if you haven't received any of them, please give up now". But that requires both sides to update code and signalling paths to be redesigned. Let's deliver this document. > > Regards, > > Christer > > --=20 Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. 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APjAAAWrHKW7uNzG81WZZdxTUKqwa1mBKScXXznXpi2TUDXsovXjOBOl 7FZxA4kkHuVt4L5rsSv6fOrQ89Wk2Ea/aNnfl1i1Ug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy167l9e/Q4cD/4xrmiUcDfU+xskgtDzNs3b0OoCGgM+/2uUcKCA6pzray2Y/JGtXMpS85Vr9KMMVWmUCUj8yU= X-Received: by 2002:a67:eb19:: with SMTP id a25mr8662149vso.109.1562558214938; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 20:56:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> <1863af99-4a20-c9c0-f472-6bbca406c9ae@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 20:56:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Harald Alvestrand , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000581b55058d236fe5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 03:56:58 -0000 --000000000000581b55058d236fe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 2:53 AM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > >>> If there are remote candidates to check, then ICE should continue > >>> checking them. Part of the problem is that when ICE is starting, it > >>> is unclear if remote candidate have not been received yet, no usable > remote > >>> candidates where received, or remote candidates are not going to be > sent at all. > >>> Also, checking remote candidates can end very quickly if remote > candidates are > >>> unreachable (fail immediately with ICMP remote address unreachable > message). > >> Ok, let's assume we DO have remote candidates, and the timer expires. > We discard the fact that the timer expires, and go on checking the remote > candidates, as you suggested. > >> > >> Then, at some point we have checked all remote candidates, but we have > NOT found successful pairs for all streams. So, since the timer already > expired, we declare ICE failure. > >> > >> I thought the whole idea was to still wait for some time after we have > tried all remote candidates, in case we will receive peer reflexive > candidates, before we declare ICE failure. > > > > The scenario that I saw starting this debate was: > > > > - Offer/answer happens > > > > - Either some candidate pairs are formed, or no candidate pair are formed > > > > - All the candidate pairs formed can be discarded very quickly (because > they are the wrong protocol, or non-routable addresses) > > > > - Failure is declared > > > > - ICE BIND requests from the other side arrive, giving peer-reflexive > candidates, but ICE connection is already closed > > I agree that is a valid use-case. > > But, isn't that use-case just a version of the generic use-case: when we > have no more remote candidates, we start a timer in order to wait for > potential peer reflexive candidates? > Right, but that makes the waiting interval unnecessarily large. Really what the timer is doing is setting a minimum amount of time for ICE to run, with the idea that that minimum is as low as possible. > > > The arrival time of the ICE BIND requests from the other side is > independent of the length of the local candidate pair list, it depends on > the length > > of the remote candidate pair list, which is unknowable on the local > side. The most likely time is "really fast". > > > >> But, as I said earlier, I am fine doing as you and others suggest. All > I am saying is that the draft needs to describe what to do if the timer > expires > >> while there are still untested remote candidates. If the solution is to > discard the timer expiration, then it needs to be documented. > > > > Saying that the timer and pair testing proceeds in parallel is all that > needs to be said, I think. > > Declaring failure requires BOTH the timer to have expired AND testing of > candidate pairs to complete. > > No matter what solution we move forward with: we also need to define > whether this applies to trickle. > > For example, what if BOTH the timer has expired AND testing of currently > available candidate pairs are complete, but trickle is still ongoing? Do we > declare ICE failure, or do we discard the timer expiration? > As noted above, the timer is just a minimum amount of time to run. If we wouldn't have declared ICE failure without the timer, nothing changes that fact. --000000000000581b55058d236fe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 2:53 AM Christ= er Holmberg <christer.= holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

>>> If there are remote candidates to check, then ICE should conti= nue
>>> checking them. Part of the problem is that when ICE is startin= g, it
>>> is unclear if remote candidate have not been received yet, no = usable remote
>>> candidates where received, or remote candidates are not going = to be sent at all.=C2=A0
>>> Also, checking remote candidates can end very quickly if remot= e candidates are
>>> unreachable (fail immediately with ICMP remote address unreach= able message).
>> Ok, let's assume we DO have remote candidates, and the timer e= xpires. We discard the fact that the timer expires, and go on checking the = remote candidates, as you suggested.
>>
>> Then, at some point we have checked all remote candidates, but we = have NOT found successful pairs for all streams. So, since the timer alread= y expired, we declare ICE failure.
>>
>> I thought the whole idea was to still wait for some time after we = have tried all remote candidates, in case we will receive peer reflexive ca= ndidates, before we declare ICE failure.
>
> The scenario that I saw starting this debate was:
>
> - Offer/answer happens
>
> - Either some candidate pairs are formed, or no candidate pair are for= med
>
> - All the candidate pairs formed can be discarded very quickly (becaus= e they are the wrong protocol, or non-routable addresses)
>
> - Failure is declared
>
> - ICE BIND requests from the other side arrive, giving peer-reflexive = candidates, but ICE connection is already closed

I agree that is a valid use-case.

But, isn't that use-case just a version of the generic use-case: when w= e have no more remote candidates, we start a timer in order to wait for pot= ential peer reflexive candidates?

Righ= t, but that makes the waiting interval unnecessarily large. Really what the= timer is doing is setting a minimum amount of time for ICE to run, with th= e idea that that minimum is as low as possible.

> The arrival time of the ICE BIND requests from the other side is indep= endent of the length of the local candidate pair list, it depends on the le= ngth
> of the remote candidate pair list, which is unknowable on the local si= de. The most likely time is "really fast".
>
>> But, as I said earlier, I am fine doing as you and others suggest.= All I am saying is that the draft needs to describe what to do if the time= r expires
>> while there are still untested remote candidates. If the solution = is to discard the timer expiration, then it needs to be documented.
>
> Saying that the timer and pair testing proceeds in parallel is all tha= t needs to be said, I think.
> Declaring failure requires BOTH the timer to have expired AND testing = of candidate pairs to complete.

No matter what solution we move forward with: we also need to define whethe= r this applies to trickle.

For example, what if BOTH the timer has expired AND testing of currently av= ailable candidate pairs are complete, but trickle is still ongoing? Do we d= eclare ICE failure, or do we discard the timer expiration?
=

As noted above, the timer is just a minimum amount of t= ime to run. If we wouldn't have declared ICE failure without the timer,= nothing changes that fact.=C2=A0

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"Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 04:08:43 -0000 --00000000000028971e058d37b748 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It appears to me that nearly all of the issues with ICE-PAC have been discussed and reached a conclusion and solution with the following PRs: https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/15 https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/16 https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/17 Once we merge those PRs, nearly all of the issues of ICE-PAC will be resolved and we can likely move to WGLC. If so, then we don't have much to discuss in a f2f and we cancel the meeting currently scheduled for IETF 105. Does anyone see a need for a f2f in Montreal? So, please say so now. Otherwise, we will likely cancel it. --00000000000028971e058d37b748 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It appears to me that nearly all of the issues with I= CE-PAC have been discussed and reached a conclusion and solution with the f= ollowing PRs:

https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/15

Once we merge those PRs, nea= rly all of the issues of ICE-PAC will be resolved and we can likely move to= WGLC.=C2=A0

If so, then we don't have much to= discuss in a f2f and we cancel the meeting currently scheduled for IETF 10= 5.


Does anyone see a need for a f2f= in Montreal?=C2=A0 So, please say so now.=C2=A0 Otherwise, we will likely = cancel it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0



<= /div>


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Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:59:56 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: "ice@ietf.org" CC: "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: ICE-PAC: Small PR covering the case when the timer expires while ICE processing is still ongoing Thread-Index: AQHVNlY0+aPxkntaC0iBwNnvmTYR0w== Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:59:55 +0000 Message-ID: <608F1CD1-2EF4-44EB-A039-EE989D1485A4@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1a.0.190609 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=christer.holmberg@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [89.166.49.243] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c776cbbd-571e-4922-d260-08d7046d576f x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600148)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:HE1PR07MB3340; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UyjD9c6j4nXPlilI5RsOZHPfb2PfWcz+LFtW8V99O9E=; b=RqMAdNTl7ZXaG7s6rqhBrMHeTW2kKWbHe4MWDk3Ya6CYQz+/ouyyhDEhaEhx+8PJHE CKhOYoT3gu/Yg5L2SMtyX2ZdfebTQht3JUgVYsrji96EGKc2Y/U7SibR6sUTCq87EZ19 ZPJkrmf0ex8oKml7Y1Ric10hmwmh8AZN9nYAYpBgvGOcfhZlvQOvkpc+G85EUpAK55RR ThUzGAaaRdAxjfmGnIrpgJlDH0JOft7694fF81FoxK8NL8w6L/fG8gH31s5Z3F3k3wbX nLnfgLW9TVPJrSj9+iwk2asn1FjNe55WjYFjSdsk/Gesk6RZJhTiPWboVAC3m6OQ93/p 7xng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UyjD9c6j4nXPlilI5RsOZHPfb2PfWcz+LFtW8V99O9E=; b=DIUZ74HJyOnM8pf4K/AfcVRRBSS8COQqBND5wqFYEA4NyJ+wUz3nCWwPYanAnt82df 5D8QL227AsHgP7EkUf5wQhYHit9mK6esQeSaMjvgZ606XScIBMBVu+1K7q9A/SKlTSlz 0SqTMyCnCD9YuFS303nrdO54DYS+lTpOAVrDRq9o6Yw9upxKn9obKmVtaQhOk0jO8+Uh NXPtAvjEYaSfOV6XM63EfLmgISFb5dV681/yzOm3dKLCLqYhkWSl4+rSXVdBzxRzMpyI /t1gNL8j+s0EfuQ3EZtu2DMvav2ktmW3cdXUzgUvkLggLMqE+wk64Qg9txb2Cn/0EDFC rJ1w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU0FimfAacBul16suvGsHuMA6x2kBwtDWxNBWmBJggvHdBl7n7P f27oIFx1Ko7HkW6LKgkkfWhyfcXHp0QnuDqjUPFlbA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy18V84EukqfE5ED0tpcsSGUEVNtDjvKb+BuKgdTHeL6Hc5ko1e3azYjMklfUIk4PxGVwo3IbvXWD+FTLNi9CI= X-Received: by 2002:a67:eb19:: with SMTP id a25mr397161vso.109.1562800163697; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:09:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand , Nils Ohlmeier , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d2f1b058d5bc444" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:09:29 -0000 --0000000000009d2f1b058d5bc444 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you might want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any candidates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP from the remote side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a different IP). Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a candidate. On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:22 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > For #1, I don't think the proposed solution is correct. The "alternative > c)" that I proposed is to "Start the timer as soon as we have received a > remote offer or answer and have also sent a local candidate to the remote > side", which is different than what is mentioned in the OP. > > The rationale for this is: > A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until we get a remote > offer/answer with ICE credentials > B) we can't receive an incoming check that could create a prflx candidate > unless we sent a candidate to the remote side > > Tracking this issue in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/12. > > For #2, I agree we should use the "max duration of a connectivity check > transaction". I think this value will work just fine in real world > scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have tested all pairs (this > can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no connectivity to ea= ch > other), we just resume existing ICE processing, and fail when everything > moves to the failed state (i.e., every pair has timed out). The timer is > simply there to prevent premature failures. > > Tracking in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/13 > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> So, what timer value do people want? >> >> >> >> And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of >> streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested all pa= irs >> for all streams? I think we need to specify that. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From:* Peter Thatcher >> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 03:56 >> *To:* Harald Alvestrand >> *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; Justin Uberti = < >> juberti@google.com>; Nils Ohlmeier ; Roman >> Shpount ; ice@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >> possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart >> >> >> >> I agree. The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should >> move ahead with them. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand >> wrote: >> >> On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A >> >> I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage = a >> decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing! >> >> >> >> Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to star= t the >> timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it. >> >> >> >> It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to ac= t >> when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined". >> >> That's my requirement :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the >> duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc. >> >> I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number >> that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer w= hen >> adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started >> will lead to hard-to-define behavior). >> >> >> >> But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic >> timer mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement fro= m >> now is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, = but >> no fundamental changes, 6 months from now. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From: *Harald Alvestrand >> *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 >> *To: *Christer Holmberg >> , Justin Uberti >> , Nils Ohlmeier >> >> *Cc: *Roman Shpount , >> "ice@ietf.org" >> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >> possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart >> >> >> >> On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> We need to move forward with this. >> >> >> >> There are two main questions at the moment: >> >> >> >> 1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" >> timer, based on previous discussions)? >> 2. What is the duration of the timer? >> >> >> >> Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), >> which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer)= at >> least one local candidate (or EOC). >> >> >> >> >> >> Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same >> as the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think tha= t >> is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used? >> >> >> >> Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *Ice on behalf of >> Christer Holmberg >> >> *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 >> *To: *Justin Uberti , Nils >> Ohlmeier >> *Cc: *Roman Shpount , >> "ice@ietf.org" >> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >> possible peer reflexive candidates? >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the = end of >> the day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse >> thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early. >> >> >> >> And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not, >> it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as= possible, >> depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending >> candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for th= em. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From: *Justin Uberti >> *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 >> *To: *Nils Ohlmeier >> *Cc: *Christer Holmberg >> , Roman Shpount >> , "ice@ietf.org" >> >> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >> possible peer reflexive candidates? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad >> server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidate= s', >> >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential position= s >> we can take are: >> >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any >> candidates. >> >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). >> (This is Nils' suggestion). >> >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). >> >> As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us >> with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) >> providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option = c) would >> help in any of these scenarios. >> From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). >> >> >> >> c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive >> prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a >> candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't >> feel super strongly about this though. >> >> >> >> Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronge= r a) I >> guess it would be okay. >> >> >> >> I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because i= t >> caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop proble= ms >> if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)= ? >> >> >> >> I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. >> Can you explain a bit more? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, whic= h >> we want to explicitly allow. >> > >> > True. >> >> Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in >> the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates b= ut also >> does not send EOC. >> >> >> The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provi= de >> candidate to get the timer started soon. >> I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t p= rovide >> host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for= ever >> because of slow servers. >> >> >> >> Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not= . >> So that will always be a possibility. >> >> >> >> Fair enough. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. >> > >> > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we >> mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes th= e >> agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we = can >> then map that to an SDP answer. >> >> Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like >> an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal fo= r that. I >> think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that= . >> Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin >> signal. >> >> >> >> The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains >> the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. >> >> >> >> Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using = the >> availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/sign= al. >> >> >> >> Best >> >> Nils >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Ice mailing list >> >> Ice@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> >> --0000000000009d2f1b058d5bc444 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases= where=C2=A0you might want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn= 9;t send any candidates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a= single IP from the remote side, and when you check it, you get a response = back from a different IP).

Ergo, I think we should=C2=A0= start the timer as soon as we have local and remote ICE credentials, regard= less of whether or not we send a candidate.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:2= 2 PM Justin Uberti <juberti@google= .com> wrote:
For #1, I don't think the proposed solution i= s correct. The "alternative c)" that I proposed is to "Start= the timer as soon as we have received a remote offer or answer and have al= so sent a local candidate to the remote side", which is different than= what is mentioned in the OP.

The rationale for th= is is:
A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until we= get a remote offer/answer with ICE credentials
B) we can't r= eceive an incoming check that could create a prflx candidate unless we sent= a candidate to the remote side

Tracking this issu= e in=C2=A0https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/12.

For #2, I agree we should use the "max duration of a = connectivity check transaction". I think this value will work just fin= e in real world scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have tested a= ll pairs (this can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no conne= ctivity to each other), we just resume existing ICE processing, and fail wh= en everything moves to the failed state (i.e., every pair has timed out). T= he timer is simply there to prevent premature failures.


On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer H= olmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

So, what timer value do people want?=

=C2=A0

And, assuming the timer value is not going to = be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the timer expires befor= e we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Sent: 02 July 2019 03:56
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Justin Ub= erti <juberti@go= ogle.com>; Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>; Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>;= ice@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

I agree.=C2=A0 The options you present seem reasonab= le and I think we should move ahead with them.

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand &l= t;harald@alvestra= nd.no> wrote:

On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:=

Hi,

=C2=A0

Go for what? =F0=9F=98= =8A

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage = a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing= !

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2= =80=99s not my personal preference to start the timer when the first offer/= answer is sent, I could live with it.

=C2=A0

It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has t= o act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undef= ined".

That's my requirement :-)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), however, I would = really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the= number of streams, components etc.

I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number = that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer = when adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer starte= d will lead to hard-to-define behavior).

=C2=A0

But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic tim= er mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now = is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no = fundamental changes, 6 months from now.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:<= u>

Hi,

=C2=A0

We need to move forward with th= is.

=C2=A0

There are two main questions at= the moment:

=C2=A0

  1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-t= ime-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer?

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), my understanding = is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpo= int has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), it has been sugge= sted that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectiv= ity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

=C2=A0

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mo= zilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think there wil= l be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about h= ow long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

=C2=A0

And, no matter whether an agent= knows that the peer supports PAC or not, =C2=A0it should aim at sending it= =E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates = just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:

=C2=A0




On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>= wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

=C2=A0

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can= 9;t expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided t= he other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. S= o c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

=C2=A0

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stoppe= d doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it c= ause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?

=C2=A0

I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to descr= ibe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?=C2=A0<= /p>





>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0

Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is= only a problem in the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send = any candidates but also does not send EOC.=C2=A0


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

=C2=A0

Correct, but we can't control which endpoints wi= ll send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fair enough.





>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

=C2=A0

The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal,= because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE = checks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting = send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum= gating function/signal.

=C2=A0

Best

=C2=A0 Nils

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org<=
/u>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

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[209.85.210.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s11sm3390772pgv.13.2019.07.10.16.20.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-f180.google.com with SMTP id r1so1786772pfq.12 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b00b:: with SMTP id x11mr1039649pjq.120.1562800833414; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:20:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:20:25 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: Christer Holmberg , Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand , Nils Ohlmeier , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000087cf3a058d5becb0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:20:38 -0000 --00000000000087cf3a058d5becb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:09 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you might > want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any candidates > (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP from the remote > side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a different IP). > > Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and > remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a candidate. > Agreed. This makes perfect sense to me. _____________ Roman Shpount --00000000000087cf3a058d5becb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --00000000000087cf3a058d5becb0-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 17:51:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9B9120052 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:51:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.204 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.204 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YKjOwpQDmNqk for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa34.google.com (mail-vk1-xa34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD76D120024 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa34.google.com with SMTP id 9so856282vkw.4 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:51:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6OQqsclhYbQ9n0fEqIK2XOfjTHSCPZE6mDW9CbXFPkw=; b=NHJbS7hQz+OuvGA/0I3lkmTkaXBXj6k3OICIPFI5MfPmcQvIg51HvoK/8khspNkmaR t61XKz6+3MDWkcLUr+bEbANZqGf2IYz/Kt2OcQm4694GONMcvzGeuIkZ7OpQFMWPe4ii C42v0IfYtGfbnOmwLF+pdfQhVD3q0HrMHIHgB74+OMTFwfYGErNiepGx+7VqMECWLlwn +Klx4uLy79EzWNr6JfQQWaCOuLCuiXiq/3sS3ebsucrdCGBdOK+G+/T4U7WqwznwItHC I4MgIjKjMBFaAXRlEZzSQZ/zPrfw3zWpJyDEub+fZKL1SbtlMHRArVPz1gi/9towGOT3 v6VQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6OQqsclhYbQ9n0fEqIK2XOfjTHSCPZE6mDW9CbXFPkw=; b=uRaGBo3G8qe+eyuWVg9WozI4hkGSt5DlX7uKD3fFoYemPseqvDH15B0xW9CVGc5ZyC J0K6dWgcompYtfhfeAwBGNPocG03kWM4bhBaPU9jNtOMzPM5t+K84kQVJE87RD8W9G8/ Uj4fjnTIb5x3M+HVBy3qdqMvYMqGX6oCAZq1JLS8dncokdL7bxNUA0QQvzoTh7NOeIxG d6dyzfnnNGyH732u4iCz03yCuibNh3L1wlC5f4ZO3Eo5IgHWAdnYNWK0m/0K/7rpGOXc AeeJkZfkB1utEPOFsNKP6t7hskU+oF2HuL7SX3t1s9Nt7CePRerZWULDsGTZW6T5NHWT kBmw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUVOLlz6+w8W2qIelG5irvGdwS/CwuLuB/DRmUsuBLxJDuIEWNO IcYgO+gcDgc5mEiW7XIFBba0Iw1FzmQ4pTyqvutqKw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyBtaeDTV1BYQxq/Z0UyNrepS574QYCMTaLe2DeHCWmnmnp4sVefB3kH7ctbRAP7QUmLDONjQ7v+csvwBxJcys= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:180a:: with SMTP id 10mr314492vky.45.1562806305134; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:51:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:51:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: ICE WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac038e058d5d320b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Getting ICE-PAC to WGLC and whether or not we should meet at IETF 105 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 00:51:49 -0000 --000000000000ac038e058d5d320b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:50 AM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > >It appears to me that nearly all of the issues with ICE-PAC have been > discussed and reached a conclusion and >solution with the following PRs: > > > > > >https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/15 > > >https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/16 > > >https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/17 > > > > > >Once we merge those PRs, nearly all of the issues of ICE-PAC will be > resolved and we can likely move to WGLC. > > > > I am happy to work with the PRs above. However, unless I=E2=80=99ve misse= d it, > they do not cover what happens if the timer expires while ICE is still > ongoing. My PR covered that, but I can move it out to a separate PR. > > > I don't see a github issue for that. Can you make one? If a PR is necessary, then, yes, please make PR for just that (many smaller PRs is better than one big one). > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > --000000000000ac038e058d5d320b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:50 AM Chris= ter Holmberg <christer= .holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

>It appears to me that nearly all of the issues w= ith ICE-PAC have been discussed and reached a conclusion and >solution w= ith the following PRs:

>=C2=A0

>=C2=A0

>Once we merge those PRs, nearly all of the issue= s of ICE-PAC will be resolved and we can likely move to WGLC.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

I am happy to work with the PRs above. However, unle= ss I=E2=80=99ve missed it, they do not cover what happens if the timer expi= res while ICE is still ongoing. My PR covered that, but I can move it out t= o a separate PR.

=C2=A0


I don't see a github issue for that.=C2=A0 Can yo= u make one?=C2=A0 If a PR is necessary, then, yes, please make PR for just = that (many smaller PRs is better than one big one).
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--000000000000ac038e058d5d320b-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 17:56:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493F4120075 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:56:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.204 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.204 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UegNF681i7Lf for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92a.google.com (mail-ua1-x92a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13F2A120052 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92a.google.com with SMTP id c4so1657511uad.1 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:56:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Wn6mUHJv6ApnGtVNCTSxn231RAcKaOvz7I/NXCLhPBI=; b=JvPfKvuSe+BC2Earvb4pKcmuRLs+HTqWqsemeOVOLnyQjLOSI+Zlbb0Rk4vrBJS4X8 MFP2KxDSVs5Goj4IjdVkhF19OwNeg08ZJPXI+6/Fx9lZCEQWnE3FXXtCrwXmmv4TQcMZ z5gNdFYzp51AiLbeubgzar+lVD/JKqZtG3Nplr8122TINzbtjviRRVxRozQESQlF5Rfm Uc9JM6akwHN797d7wiVjdCJ4yRYAvIv8hmOX5Z8YPYS7trebjf8CDhp+YAKAgr11friK X1tub4WDbMkYdA+FtHng/1+WFYDyic/phJ97DC29EtHHCqSlL7FeK2bcTiMv3LjOaT9Y NBOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Wn6mUHJv6ApnGtVNCTSxn231RAcKaOvz7I/NXCLhPBI=; b=AR6LS2SMi+hOLnWndVoTA8JjS6e7bJ5tQSjfNlDNoImADF06D+k+288CYS+RdNQer8 vc6fhXrpT3v4VYhU+PaWEWdGlenvfzHtNqA+eJVn+owU9m/uIn5d/NF3VCtcvdY5g7+7 GXXaOhBQnPiksiTqxxHtt8azdWAtcU6Y6UGHDfJiJgqNEC/eApiatLuukzrsDB8Lsqw3 dSZz/IXewsxmANeXawp8upiOYD7Dr3lw4TXsL6mj4Hgke8gxqWdbmIzqqJfIJF6DVyM7 5kzgNcSwto14BpBMhrWQcUvsn4vvddwJntbflQehq+Uco7wcyHh1JgAB8EENiHNE4vG+ j8CQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXWa8RiYCb8gQjBtJgrA0KynhZWxY0G87wDURl5vXbE/XWOnSfr kbBzUc1U77ZOtLk5Gza8l4FMjSrlwe8ROPwaaJwoXwOBumaOdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwl20Wf13yTIx5LTooKJbgWAyKmKlZbsLQ694VW1v8TBFTfHFY/FD/fIw/CIHAEEe5maETJxLgHVwKWjYt3bR8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:1c2:: with SMTP id 60mr552795ual.78.1562806613372; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:56:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:56:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Peter Thatcher Cc: Christer Holmberg , ICE WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b5fcc058d5d45bf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Getting ICE-PAC to WGLC and whether or not we should meet at IETF 105 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 00:56:57 -0000 --0000000000000b5fcc058d5d45bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was fixed in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/18. On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Peter Thatcher wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:50 AM Christer Holmberg < > christer..holmberg@ericsson.com > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> >It appears to me that nearly all of the issues with ICE-PAC have been >> discussed and reached a conclusion and >solution with the following PRs: >> >> > >> >> >https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/15 >> >> >https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/16 >> >> >https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/pull/17 >> >> > >> >> >Once we merge those PRs, nearly all of the issues of ICE-PAC will be >> resolved and we can likely move to WGLC. >> >> >> >> I am happy to work with the PRs above. However, unless I=E2=80=99ve miss= ed it, >> they do not cover what happens if the timer expires while ICE is still >> ongoing. My PR covered that, but I can move it out to a separate PR. >> >> >> > > I don't see a github issue for that. Can you make one? If a PR is > necessary, then, yes, please make PR for just that (many smaller PRs is > better than one big one). > > >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --0000000000000b5fcc058d5d45bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
= On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Peter Thatcher <pthatcher=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrot= e:


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 12:50 AM Christer Holmberg = <chr= ister..holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

>It appears to me that nearly all of the issues w= ith ICE-PAC have been discussed and reached a conclusion and >solution w= ith the following PRs:

>=C2=A0

>=C2=A0

>Once we merge those PRs, nearly all of the issue= s of ICE-PAC will be resolved and we can likely move to WGLC.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

I am happy to work with the PRs above. However, unle= ss I=E2=80=99ve missed it, they do not cover what happens if the timer expi= res while ICE is still ongoing. My PR covered that, but I can move it out t= o a separate PR.

=C2=A0


I don't see a github issue for that.=C2=A0 Can yo= u make one?=C2=A0 If a PR is necessary, then, yes, please make PR for just = that (many smaller PRs is better than one big one).
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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--0000000000000b5fcc058d5d45bf-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 19:16:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33FC12009E for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.204 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.204 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uFewPneQ5hai for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x930.google.com (mail-ua1-x930.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::930]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4092A120098 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x930.google.com with SMTP id j21so1718349uap.2 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:16:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XG+HFUmPoQwu2z8KTDmBdB4apL59n4ymkTxfwRzg4G4=; b=IWffkQBqTpCjoyJe7xLRvL9Awz0zv3mCbvXfO61mBZEYq8BqJ80akj8kCW4sZw0SkU p+nXDODugg/lTioSVYsKl7lvbffwGQ2MoLHN2fcULpJP1lm8j0tB4QyIAS2zciLh91tS CFfhVzMi8n6NlinztP+CJdBeC35yZynNWbVh2wSgHJYB+3X1cArfygso0KNaE0wgrxTc pbArBDcAhKyaWx5umzys15vDpxYWNpYHU9LSJUrz2BE47z4Ffx6ZECTfZPbvxs0aRajr u5baTGGzLlKqTUGVnXfjUYth38OAOjl2ZJKjX9jYxpVWN1R4awzj0/nDG5xRjtvcTghw Ls2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XG+HFUmPoQwu2z8KTDmBdB4apL59n4ymkTxfwRzg4G4=; b=Eo5pcQhGB2Ck+v9VLPyjoy1dItEQy18xSUrspkq3173uyfxqX/htwgOCHetr0ER/wj iZiCVnuyi7m1FqxcwHymxaUSbhAjNYMVVW3MyaHyBjBdmKufZkOfDUInzFljls+lMj69 cLCoFcAvJgzJFIufWzskACecU/rBzl/XvhXjAf1auMK+3/SZH1gsz2XhQ5cBAkI7oz+n QzRLLkxYXKKyKjqM8qC8eUkcBE8cUb9IKCWV9Zwl4ib79ropR8UXJTb3/dc1jWPYvcU/ QgXnYepCvULxpOhSk2XfMoqP3exwIWeMwp1FuKx+fOaOJaybS7xmN2/xA5un9j1+4Z2g yKFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX3AKG4Q0fw7z0MEjIqcvBn85F/wcvTPgiEQa2IgGR7xHZgSRB9 JPh+wW75mxO0ntj/GkY1NMCFB8O/XIFZKxo2J/J0Hw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzmcyMKrq1FtJIsgucZzDNTyFvntH9ofZrViyXN2GdZpQe4SYgKpP8dL9DzuZYzvJIC7RbPvRdRCmhutREchj8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:1c2:: with SMTP id 60mr699900ual.78.1562811405717; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:16:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:16:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: Christer Holmberg , Harald Alvestrand , Nils Ohlmeier , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0bb51058d5e622b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 02:16:52 -0000 --000000000000b0bb51058d5e622b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, I was thinking of that edge case as well, which is why one version of my proposed text was "send a local candidate or EOC", but EOC depends on trickle-ice. I think just basing this on the candidate information exchange is sufficient and more simple, so I like it. On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 4:09 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you migh= t > want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any candidates > (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP from the remote > side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a different IP)= . > > Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and > remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a candidate. > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:22 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > >> For #1, I don't think the proposed solution is correct. The "alternative >> c)" that I proposed is to "Start the timer as soon as we have received a >> remote offer or answer and have also sent a local candidate to the remot= e >> side", which is different than what is mentioned in the OP. >> >> The rationale for this is: >> A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until we get a remote >> offer/answer with ICE credentials >> B) we can't receive an incoming check that could create a prflx candidat= e >> unless we sent a candidate to the remote side >> >> Tracking this issue in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/12. >> >> For #2, I agree we should use the "max duration of a connectivity check >> transaction". I think this value will work just fine in real world >> scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have tested all pairs (thi= s >> can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no connectivity to e= ach >> other), we just resume existing ICE processing, and fail when everything >> moves to the failed state (i.e., every pair has timed out). The timer is >> simply there to prevent premature failures. >> >> Tracking in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/13 >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >>> So, what timer value do people want? >>> >>> >>> >>> And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of >>> streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested all p= airs >>> for all streams? I think we need to specify that. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Peter Thatcher >>> *Sent:* 02 July 2019 03:56 >>> *To:* Harald Alvestrand >>> *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; Justin Uberti >>> ; Nils Ohlmeier ; Roman >>> Shpount ; ice@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >>> possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree. The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should >>> move ahead with them. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand >>> wrote: >>> >>> On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A >>> >>> I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage >>> a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing! >>> >>> >>> >>> Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to sta= rt the >>> timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it. >>> >>> >>> >>> It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to >>> act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefine= d". >>> >>> That's my requirement :-) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the >>> duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc= . >>> >>> I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number >>> that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer = when >>> adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started >>> will lead to hard-to-define behavior). >>> >>> >>> >>> But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic >>> timer mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement fr= om >>> now is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion,= but >>> no fundamental changes, 6 months from now. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Harald Alvestrand >>> *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 >>> *To: *Christer Holmberg >>> , Justin Uberti >>> , Nils Ohlmeier >>> >>> *Cc: *Roman Shpount , >>> "ice@ietf.org" >>> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >>> possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> We need to move forward with this. >>> >>> >>> >>> There are two main questions at the moment: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" >>> timer, based on previous discussions)? >>> 2. What is the duration of the timer? >>> >>> >>> >>> Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), >>> which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer= ) at >>> least one local candidate (or EOC). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same >>> as the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think th= at >>> is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used? >>> >>> >>> >>> Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Ice on behalf of >>> Christer Holmberg >>> >>> *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 >>> *To: *Justin Uberti , Nils >>> Ohlmeier >>> *Cc: *Roman Shpount , >>> "ice@ietf.org" >>> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >>> possible peer reflexive candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> I don=E2=80=99t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the= end of >>> the day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse >>> thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early. >>> >>> >>> >>> And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not= , >>> it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon a= s possible, >>> depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sendin= g >>> candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for t= hem. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Justin Uberti >>> *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 >>> *To: *Nils Ohlmeier >>> *Cc: *Christer Holmberg >>> , Roman Shpount >>> , "ice@ietf.org" >>> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for >>> possible peer reflexive candidates? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad >>> server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidat= es', >>> >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential >>> positions we can take are: >>> >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any >>> candidates. >>> >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). >>> (This is Nils' suggestion). >>> >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). >>> >>> As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us >>> with candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) >>> providing us with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option= c) would >>> help in any of these scenarios. >>> From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). >>> >>> >>> >>> c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive >>> prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a >>> candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don'= t >>> feel super strongly about this though. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a strong= er a) I >>> guess it would be okay. >>> >>> >>> >>> I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because >>> it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop >>> problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement eithe= r b) >>> or c)? >>> >>> >>> >>> I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. >>> Can you explain a bit more? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, >>> which we want to explicitly allow. >>> > >>> > True. >>> >>> Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in >>> the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates = but also >>> does not send EOC. >>> >>> >>> The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to prov= ide >>> candidate to get the timer started soon. >>> I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t = provide >>> host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever >>> because of slow servers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or >>> not. So that will always be a possibility. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fair enough. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. >>> > >>> > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what w= e >>> mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes t= he >>> agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we= can >>> then map that to an SDP answer. >>> >>> Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like >>> an beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal f= or that. I >>> think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. >>> Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin >>> signal. >>> >>> >>> >>> The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contain= s >>> the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using= the >>> availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/sig= nal. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Nils >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Ice mailing list >>> >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >>> >>> --000000000000b0bb51058d5e622b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yeah, I was thinking of that edge case as well, which is w= hy one version of my proposed text was "send a local candidate or EOC&= quot;, but EOC depends on trickle-ice.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I thi= nk just basing this on the candidate information exchange is sufficient and= more simple, so I like it.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 4:09 PM Justin Ube= rti <juberti@google.com> wr= ote:
When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where=C2= =A0you might want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send = any candidates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single I= P from the remote side, and when you check it, you get a response back from= a different IP).

Ergo, I think we should=C2=A0start the= timer as soon as we have local and remote ICE credentials, regardless of w= hether or not we send a candidate.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:22 PM Just= in Uberti <juber= ti@google.com> wrote:
For #1, I don't think the proposed s= olution is correct. The "alternative c)" that I proposed is to &q= uot;Start the timer as soon as we have received a remote offer or answer an= d have also sent a local candidate to the remote side", which is diffe= rent than what is mentioned in the OP.

The rationa= le for this is:
A) we can't start ICE processing (checks)= until we get a remote offer/answer with ICE credentials
B) we ca= n't receive an incoming check that could create a prflx candidate unles= s we sent a candidate to the remote side

Tracking = this issue in=C2=A0https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/12= .

For #2, I agree we should use the "max durat= ion of a connectivity check transaction". I think this value will work= just fine in real world scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have= tested all pairs (this can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with= no connectivity to each other), we just resume existing ICE processing, an= d fail when everything moves to the failed state (i.e., every pair has time= d out). The timer is simply there to prevent premature failures.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM C= hrister Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

So, what timer value do people want?=

=C2=A0

And, assuming the timer value is not going to = be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the timer expires befor= e we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that= .

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Sent: 02 July 2019 03:56
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Justin Ub= erti <juberti@go= ogle.com>; Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>; Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>;= ice@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

I agree.=C2=A0 The options you present seem reasonab= le and I think we should move ahead with them.

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand &l= t;harald@alvestra= nd.no> wrote:

On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:=

Hi,

=C2=A0

Go for what? =F0=9F=98= =8A

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage = a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing= !

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2= =80=99s not my personal preference to start the timer when the first offer/= answer is sent, I could live with it.

=C2=A0

It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has t= o act when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undef= ined".

That's my requirement :-)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), however, I would = really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the= number of streams, components etc.

I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number = that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer = when adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer starte= d will lead to hard-to-define behavior).

=C2=A0

But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic tim= er mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now = is better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no = fundamental changes, 6 months from now.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:<= u>

Hi,

=C2=A0

We need to move forward with th= is.

=C2=A0

There are two main questions at= the moment:

=C2=A0

  1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-t= ime-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer?

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), my understanding = is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpo= int has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), it has been sugge= sted that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectiv= ity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

=C2=A0

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mo= zilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think there wil= l be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about h= ow long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

=C2=A0

And, no matter whether an agent= knows that the peer supports PAC or not, =C2=A0it should aim at sending it= =E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates = just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:

=C2=A0




On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>= wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.= com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

=C2=A0

c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can= 9;t expect to receive prflx candidates until you've at least provided t= he other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super strongly about this though.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. S= o c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.

=C2=A0

I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stoppe= d doing a) because it caused to many problems. With that in mind would it c= ause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?

=C2=A0

I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to descr= ibe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?=C2=A0<= /p>





>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0

Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is= only a problem in the scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send = any candidates but also does not send EOC.=C2=A0


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

=C2=A0

Correct, but we can't control which endpoints wi= ll send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a possibility.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fair enough.





>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

=C2=A0

The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal,= because it contains the username/password information needed to start ICE = checks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting = send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum= gating function/signal.

=C2=A0

Best

=C2=A0 Nils

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org<=
/u>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
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htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

--000000000000b0bb51058d5e622b-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 20:34:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C805112008A for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.705 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.705 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NS-Bg-1v-3Lu for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52e.google.com (mail-pg1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F695120048 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id s27so2220279pgl.2 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8sV00xW4mhM8HW+G4FlfMtUUrIgTiIraO6J8fd0XtQs=; b=FDhC2fr98dDUVy5qtsPsdDuGm7k4ij4NqBiq7CmAdeKx8rRr2gAzLtcj5BMMzSs0a6 pcp6OHKca2tnOcE3/7uJhcBt3qyG28+OxIcGOzgHmJBooHdnpOXbMOiabjpoHnCx75nP qui22LmTTAAsUhC+2y64EEocWkRdO+28dwzb8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8sV00xW4mhM8HW+G4FlfMtUUrIgTiIraO6J8fd0XtQs=; b=EEJxI86z7oDrHwZ7FApMpPA0w0jcnT6odxlJW/+itpZoRygIisfMN/pYjGdXhTOPtK EyI8L6hhAMb5IuzMTVldAgHHzhIqvOt1qGpQRERQIB27A3kdtXiwTPiADm7oCy8F4vf9 4o2qOVdjcCb8eSdSMStXOjo4Aj/xa0wGdMLo5o/G23nZMOorvFlKMZ1qoGoU0DKLun0e khkBZ6PfmYVvETntXFnj1/cbNRIO3qYHrxeryYriXXL+f6JnHC/jsLxUeUh/9/+blTMS hbk8z5n1g7Y6h5/zr1RXe0jubK3S3y5fq1/dixxMokSy4xRHT5jGK9E7+pgThhQod6s7 2fbA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUZhGwCf8KsxFFpWN2uUQ6Yrjnpx2V0ZvhrALwBeS/EZg5DzYqf sDnduUIAmwe4BWTcGxXPu1iWCA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxf1YiiBndg9RfZqzYVvu8st7RcPn1XkJCWeMIy/qXWrjcaVARAKyfkb4DluXF9Ho8LB1DRsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:d0:: with SMTP id 199mr1937183pga.85.1562816059538; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4600:3f31:b0d2:ff:142e:34ee? ([2601:647:4600:3f31:b0d2:ff:142e:34ee]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q69sm5184879pjb.0.2019.07.10.20.34.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Nils Ohlmeier In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:34:17 -0700 Cc: Christer Holmberg , Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6AC08C9F-22F2-46CA-970C-65F54461D20E@mozilla.com> References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> To: Justin Uberti X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 03:34:22 -0000 > On 10Jul, 2019, at 16:09, Justin Uberti wrote: >=20 > When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you = might want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any = candidates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP = from the remote side, and when you check it, you get a response back = from a different IP). >=20 > Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and = remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a = candidate. Technically there is another edge case (for trickle only I believe): if = you hand out SDP, but then local gathering of host candidates fails for = some bizarre reason (e.g. application ran out of file descriptors or = something alike). In that scenario it would be pointless to start the = PAC timer, or at least you should end it early when you know that the = pairing table will stay empty forever. Unfortunately the other side will have to wait for the PAC timer to = expire before giving up, as we don=E2=80=99t have any means to indicate = that we are neither going to send candidates nor are able to check peers = candidates. Or to state it differently: the PAC timer should be started when at = least local host candidates exist and local and remote ICE credentials = have been exchanged. Best regards Nils Ohlmeier From nobody Wed Jul 10 20:42:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B245A120048 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:42:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.205 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.205 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZdzMFOVxEjb5 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2b.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F396C120090 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2b.google.com with SMTP id b64so898260vke.13 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:42:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pEEJpZOPX+NEOo+1c0BLYSavWAcExchCp5be+dg/R6k=; b=ZTUp10N5VEFAZFctwDissFlfNHkUbF03GFQiEI6fWyUrAxGODHJX1L4MOtdlf+ko+T WEVujy6RfKFacz6iuUwNuiCtPeLxfyTXRDfsPfPOTlTuHWWMKZG6QsyNalH5yFtCF9NI wXMnX0SMv1YlXln5H7KLkPyvW7e1xVKr/6rJOBqg+nl3v3DNqwiGW16Q4tZrCdaEVsnE WDp2zwLRBg3hWZOuDE8urhcfBDLSKnZNgu/EbHzIvfuoo6NFrmKn6sRTOUfqVtGOWWKO 7Ifw6IA4UASVeBr8PE3ifdR1PDX8Egdc+4QMMSfLQZWLe6VTIY0Z/mrsWae38ldSgFRF AQQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pEEJpZOPX+NEOo+1c0BLYSavWAcExchCp5be+dg/R6k=; b=ZwIUNIPoc/O9ZZ6DdEWEjapJ8ogC0sLzXzdbePFerisOiAoJKA7mHB7wdaQm0HV1Yu M+wREZp6ffiLP0XawPmGx+z1ZW73wTV2tbNOzWGbtXSI37GSXf85FTflcuesK+AJ4Y+z XBnWkSeYEXClZC5TTwhqxYo9s842dC/BF0FpXyMqOSFl1F0GSgOBR9KH6SOe1xz3OVkr ZY0HUYpbwCIwEHK0cJEgIVw0zHOvd1lnjtgLZeMzAbIpkP51X45EvSqLhsEJC72dWUFF XLqFt1FvIu4OWpD+5arFKxTOX7STHpriLZQ87w4gSaL8m/9SQ7tGPCPRrBRmO+FdWlI3 gvQg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVlW9B2Ix+7gB4UFBS7FTYwX4mZbbCv9ggOFsrtvbemntWEJEEb kSYWXUEok0Z76izkkuTVrbSdSUA8kIyiQ2GHWLSsbA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy0rGuU1muxlxMxtoXi/pKoR4wZFQCv0QFNdPvjt5+GlCt1YmReXyzKAihtQQSJaTnUqCBy/MG6FHf6+UlzmTE= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:9ad7:: with SMTP id c206mr442666vke.31.1562816565371; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:42:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1aa5aac7-af59-4e3b-8651-18f6e6431a2d@alvestrand.no> <66678ADA-7C02-4D9D-B9D2-308873BC0125@ericsson.com> <7a829bc0-d066-a3be-b7be-9b39ce799821@alvestrand.no> <6AC08C9F-22F2-46CA-970C-65F54461D20E@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <6AC08C9F-22F2-46CA-970C-65F54461D20E@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:42:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nils Ohlmeier Cc: Christer Holmberg , Peter Thatcher , Harald Alvestrand , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b151f058d5f96b0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 03:42:49 -0000 --0000000000003b151f058d5f96b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see your point, but I tend to think you could always encounter some sort of unrecoverable system error like this (even after seeing that local candidates exist), and the ICE agent could always blow up ICE in such a situation. On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:34 PM Nils Ohlmeier wrote= : > > > On 10Jul, 2019, at 16:09, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you > might want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any > candidates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP from > the remote side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a > different IP). > > > > Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and > remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a candidate. > > Technically there is another edge case (for trickle only I believe): if > you hand out SDP, but then local gathering of host candidates fails for > some bizarre reason (e.g. application ran out of file descriptors or > something alike). In that scenario it would be pointless to start the PAC > timer, or at least you should end it early when you know that the pairing > table will stay empty forever. > Unfortunately the other side will have to wait for the PAC timer to expir= e > before giving up, as we don=E2=80=99t have any means to indicate that we = are > neither going to send candidates nor are able to check peers candidates. > > Or to state it differently: the PAC timer should be started when at least > local host candidates exist and local and remote ICE credentials have bee= n > exchanged. > > Best regards > Nils Ohlmeier > > --0000000000003b151f058d5f96b0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I see your point, but I tend to think you could always enc= ounter some sort of unrecoverable system error like this (even after seeing= that local candidates exist), and the ICE agent could always blow up ICE i= n such a situation.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:34 PM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:
=

> On 10Jul, 2019, at 16:09, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:
>
> When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you m= ight want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any cand= idates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP from t= he remote side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a diffe= rent IP).
>
> Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and r= emote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a candidate.
Technically there is another edge case (for trickle only I believe): if you= hand out SDP, but then local gathering of host candidates fails for some b= izarre reason (e.g. application ran out of file descriptors or something al= ike). In that scenario it would be pointless to start the PAC timer, or at = least you should end it early when you know that the pairing table will sta= y empty forever.
Unfortunately the other side will have to wait for the PAC timer to expire = before giving up, as we don=E2=80=99t have any means to indicate that we ar= e neither going to send candidates nor are able to check peers candidates.<= br>
Or to state it differently: the PAC timer should be started when at least l= ocal host candidates exist and local and remote ICE credentials have been e= xchanged.

Best regards
=C2=A0 Nils Ohlmeier

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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fwjkGTRhYdavzvrzLiJZJqQ1HTdP2T/HhBBv6zCkgYc=; b=ruJCazSWA4uFPsX9iqnZ5rsDH/XhHNyYTznPoLc1pWs3lsLztrVHDLh/PwbDpuQliH 56Mx4iWRIMu6u9DZnZJA17cCqJF2LVRzW0Pm3eo2rdXjuSwit7SVcLsE7XglOqMIiuQo 8Pu5vShcujxme8yFc//hug7SDYhhDizn6zqgl3/+v/J7h4/G4o07ywga9yLN0u2x/DgZ h9DVL3QwOwoPTA/I6Z7zqQ7gYUPz0FaQhSlMXXMssxg/N+prZ5iyxtlJMEziQIfV2nln lHBSebt5NNVhly1sH5bUojJ0sVMNBgY41EOFT2tHk2pAVeQa2OpQbuzNRpUiM1GN66dR f8AQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fwjkGTRhYdavzvrzLiJZJqQ1HTdP2T/HhBBv6zCkgYc=; b=qZDht/o3saCmK5+EOLy5E2VgyiYjpEEnsgSZbNF8GOOHP+Ud9q9IQC1FBxLH5+OWCo jZMb6P0iIPW5/bHxPl6hF8Gnyf9lImSAQTZ1HQMR24XbjYMVpBz28trt19DaGLH6j4Bx 5df+v1VS3XTJHOcfFH8HaNA8fL53ZW6RX/wFo7Lm6hCZnKfPXXGFnQGqDTu6k8J9+KUN 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multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000356db7058d61db05" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:25:17 -0000 --000000000000356db7058d61db05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yes, a candidate On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 11:19 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > What do you mean by =E2=80=9Dsingle IP from the remote side=E2=80=9D? A c= andidate? > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti > *Date: *Thursday, 11 July 2019 at 2.09 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > *Cc: *"pthatcher@google.com" , Harald Alvestrand < > harald@alvestrand.no>, Nils Ohlmeier , Roman > Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > When writing up this text, I realized there are edge cases where you migh= t > want to discover prflx candidates even if you didn't send any candidates > (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you get a single IP from the remote > side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a different IP)= . > > > > Ergo, I think we should start the timer as soon as we have local and > remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not we send a candidate. > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:22 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > > For #1, I don't think the proposed solution is correct. The "alternative > c)" that I proposed is to "Start the timer as soon as we have received a > remote offer or answer and have also sent a local candidate to the remote > side", which is different than what is mentioned in the OP. > > > > The rationale for this is: > > A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until we get a remote > offer/answer with ICE credentials > > B) we can't receive an incoming check that could create a prflx candidate > unless we sent a candidate to the remote side > > > > Tracking this issue in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/12 > > . > > > > For #2, I agree we should use the "max duration of a connectivity check > transaction". I think this value will work just fine in real world > scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have tested all pairs (this > can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no connectivity to ea= ch > other), we just resume existing ICE processing, and fail when everything > moves to the failed state (i.e., every pair has timed out). The timer is > simply there to prevent premature failures. > > > > Tracking in https://github.com/cdh4u/draft-ice-pac/issues/13 > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > So, what timer value do people want? > > > > And, assuming the timer value is not going to be based on the number of > streams, what do we do if the timer expires before we have tested all pai= rs > for all streams? I think we need to specify that. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Peter Thatcher > *Sent:* 02 July 2019 03:56 > *To:* Harald Alvestrand > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; Justin Uberti < > juberti@google.com>; Nils Ohlmeier ; Roman Shpount > ; ice@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > I agree. The options you present seem reasonable and I think we should > move ahead with them. > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM Harald Alvestrand > wrote: > > On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A > > I was noting the month of silence, and thinking that I should encoruage a > decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis" is not a good thing! > > > > Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2=80=99s not my personal preference to start= the > timer when the first offer/answer is sent, I could live with it. > > > > It's a well defined time, and is observable by the entity that has to act > when the timer expires, so I think it is much better than "undefined". > > That's my requirement :-) > > > > > > Regarding 2), however, I would really like some input on whether the > duration should be independent of the number of streams, components etc. > > I think having a single number is preferable to having a complex number > that could change over time (for instance, if we don't reset the timer wh= en > adding streams, then adding or removing streams after the timer started > will lead to hard-to-define behavior). > > > > But my main concern is that we get this stuff done and get the basic time= r > mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec to implement from now i= s > better than having a spec that has had slightly more discussion, but no > fundamental changes, 6 months from now. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Harald Alvestrand > *Date: *Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > , Justin Uberti > , Nils Ohlmeier > > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart > > > > On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > > > We need to move forward with this. > > > > There are two main questions at the moment: > > > > 1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-time-to-run-ICE" > timer, based on previous discussions)? > 2. What is the duration of the timer? > > > > Regarding 1), my understanding is that people suggest alternative c), > which starts the timer when an endpoint has sent (in an offer or answer) = at > least one local candidate (or EOC). > > > > > > Regarding 2), it has been suggested that the duration would be the same a= s > the max duration of a connectivity check transaction. Do we think that is > enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used? > > > > Go for it. It is much better than having nothing. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of > Christer Holmberg > > *Date: *Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02 > *To: *Justin Uberti , Nils > Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , > "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > Hi, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think there will be any interoperability issues. At the e= nd of the > day PAC is only about how long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing > that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early. > > > > And, no matter whether an agent knows that the peer supports PAC or not, > it should aim at sending it=E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as = possible, > depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending > candidates just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for the= m. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti > *Date: *Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28 > *To: *Nils Ohlmeier > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg > , Roman Shpount > , "ice@ietf.org" > > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for > possible peer reflexive candidates? > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > > > > On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM Nils Ohlmeier > wrote: > > > >> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a bad > server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of candidates= ', > >> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential positions > we can take are: > >> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any > candidates. > >> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). (Thi= s > is Nils' suggestion). > >> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC). > > As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us wit= h > candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing u= s > with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help = in any of > these scenarios. > From my point of view we should choose either a) or b). > > > > c) is just a clarification of a), in that you can't expect to receive > prflx candidates until you've at least provided the other side with a > candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't > feel super strongly about this though. > > > > Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at it from that angle. So c) being a stronger= a) I > guess it would be okay. > > > > I guess my only concern is that in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it > caused to many problems. With that in mind would it cause interop problem= s > if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)? > > > > I'd be fine with that, but I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Ca= n > you explain a bit more? > > > > > >> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidates, which > we want to explicitly allow. > > > > True. > > Just to make sure we are all on the same page: b) is only a problem in th= e > scenario where the remote side doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but al= so does > not send EOC. > > > The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provid= e > candidate to get the timer started soon. > I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t pr= ovide > host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take for = ever > because of slow servers. > > > > Correct, but we can't control which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. > So that will always be a possibility. > > > > Fair enough. > > > > > >> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option. > > > > Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we > mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that makes the > agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-sdp we c= an > then map that to an SDP answer. > > Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like a= n > beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for th= at. I > think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like that. > Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin > signal. > > > > The answer in some ways is an explicit begin signal, because it contains > the username/password information needed to start ICE checks. > > > > Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your reply before hitting send on mine. Using t= he > availability sounds like a good idea as the minimum gating function/signa= l. > > > > Best > > Nils > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ice mailing list > > Ice@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > > -- > > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > --000000000000356db7058d61db05 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes, a candidate

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1= 1:19 PM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

What do you mean by =E2=80=9Dsi= ngle IP from the remote side=E2=80=9D? A candidate?

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com= >
Date: Thursday, 11 July 2019 at 2.09
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Cc: "= pthatcher@google.com" <pthatcher@google.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "<= a href=3D"mailto:ice@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ice@ietf.org" <= ;ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

When writing up this text, I realized there are edge= cases where=C2=A0you might want to discover prflx candidates even if you d= idn't send any candidates (e.g., you don't send any candidates, you= get a single IP from the remote side, and when you check it, you get a response back from a different IP). =

=C2=A0

Ergo, I think we should=C2=A0start the timer as soon= as we have local and remote ICE credentials, regardless of whether or not = we send a candidate.

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 9:22 PM Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com= > wrote:

For #1, I don't think the proposed solution is c= orrect. The "alternative c)" that I proposed is to "Start th= e timer as soon as we have received a remote offer or answer and have also = sent a local candidate to the remote side", which is different than what is mentioned in the OP.

=C2=A0

The rationale for this is:

A) we can't start ICE processing (checks) until = we get a remote offer/answer with ICE credentials

B) we can't receive an incoming check that could= create a prflx candidate unless we sent a candidate to the remote side<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For #2, I agree we should use the "max duration= of a connectivity check transaction". I think this value will work ju= st fine in real world scenarios. And if the timer expires before we have te= sted all pairs (this can certainly happen, in the case of two hosts with no connectivity to each other), we just resume = existing ICE processing, and fail when everything moves to the failed state= (i.e., every pair has timed out). The timer is simply there to prevent pre= mature failures.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 1:02 PM Christer Holmberg <= ;christ= er.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

So, what timer value do people = want?

=C2=A0

And, assuming the timer value i= s not going to be based on the number of streams, what do we do if the time= r expires before we have tested all pairs for all streams? I think we need to specify that.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Sent: 02 July 2019 03:56
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Justin Ub= erti <juberti@go= ogle.com>; Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>; Roman Shpount <r= oman@telurix.com>; ice@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

I agree.=C2=A0 The options you = present seem reasonable and I think we should move ahead with them.<= u>

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 6:20 AM= Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:

On 6/24/19 12:06 PM, Christer H= olmberg wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

Go for what? =F0=9F=98=8A

I was noting the month of silence, and thinking tha= t I should encoruage a decision to be taken - "analysis paralysis"= ; is not a good thing!

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), eventhough it=E2= =80=99s not my personal preference to start the timer when the first offer/= answer is sent, I could live with it.=

=C2=A0

It's a well defined time, and is observable by = the entity that has to act when the timer expires, so I think it is much be= tter than "undefined".

That's my requirement :-)<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), however, I would = really like some input on whether the duration should be independent of the= number of streams, components etc.

I think having a single number is preferable to hav= ing a complex number that could change over time (for instance, if we don&#= 39;t reset the timer when adding streams, then adding or removing streams a= fter the timer started will lead to hard-to-define behavior).

=C2=A0

But my main concern is that we get this stuff done = and get the basic timer mechanism into interoperable code - having a spec t= o implement from now is better than having a spec that has had slightly mor= e discussion, but no fundamental changes, 6 months from now.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Harald= Alvestrand <harald@alvest= rand.no>
Date: Sunday, 23 June 2019 at 9.08
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates? - discussion restart

=C2=A0

On 5/28/19 1:54 PM, Christer Ho= lmberg wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

We need to move forward with th= is.

=C2=A0

There are two main questions at= the moment:

=C2=A0

  1. When does an endpoint start the timer ("minimum-t= ime-to-run-ICE" timer, based on previous discussions)?
  2. What is the duration of the timer?

=C2=A0

Regarding 1), my understanding = is that people suggest alternative c), which starts the timer when an endpo= int has sent (in an offer or answer) at least one local candidate (or EOC).

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regarding 2), it has been sugge= sted that the duration would be the same as the max duration of a connectiv= ity check transaction. Do we think that is enough, no matter how many media streams and components are used?

=C2=A0

Go for it. It is much better than having nothing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, 3 May 2019 at 15.02
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mo= zilla.com>
Cc: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org"<= /a> <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think there wil= l be any interoperability issues. At the end of the day PAC is only about h= ow long to wait for candidates, so the worse thing that can happen is than an agent declares ICE failure too early.

=C2=A0

And, no matter whether an agent= knows that the peer supports PAC or not, =C2=A0it should aim at sending it= =E2=80=99s candidates to its peer as soon as possible, depending on whatever local policies. The agent should not delay sending candidates = just because it assumes that the peer will anyway wait for them.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Justin= Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 2 May 2019 at 22.28
To: Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE PAC: When to start the timer waiting for poss= ible peer reflexive candidates?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 12:22 PM= Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:

=C2=A0


On May 2, 2019, at 12:13, Justi= n Uberti <jubert= i@google.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:07 AM= Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmeier@mozilla.com> wrote:


>> I do think Nils' point is important though, i.e., if we have a= bad server it will take a very long time to decide on 'last set of can= didates',
>> which is probably not helpful. As such I think the potential posit= ions we can take are:
>> a) Start the timer as soon as we have an answer, regardless of any= candidates.
>> b) a) + receipt of at least one remote candidate (or remote EOC). = (This is Nils' suggestion).
>> c) a) + sending at least one local candidate (or local EOC).

As we are mostly concerned about the remote side: 1) not providing us with = candidates, or 2) providing us with unusable candidates or 3) providing us = with candidates really late I don=E2=80=99t see how option c) would help in= any of these scenarios.
>From my point of view we should choose either a) or b).

=C2=A0

c) is just a clarification of a= ), in that you can't expect to receive prflx candidates until you'v= e at least provided the other side with a candidate, so that may be the right time for the timer to start. I don't feel super stron= gly about this though.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ok. I hadn=E2=80=99t looked at = it from that angle. So c) being a stronger a) I guess it would be okay.<= /u>

=C2=A0

I guess my only concern is that= in Firefox we stopped doing a) because it caused to many problems. With th= at in mind would it cause interop problems if we leave up to the implementor to choose to implement either b) or c)?

=C2=A0

I'd be fine with that, but = I'd want to describe what to watch out for. Can you explain a bit more?= =C2=A0



>> b) has a problem if the remote side doesn't send any candidate= s, which we want to explicitly allow.
>
> True.=C2=A0

Just to make sure we are all on= the same page: b) is only a problem in the scenario where the remote side = doesn=E2=80=99t send any candidates but also does not send EOC.=C2=A0


The EOC should allow agents which explicitly don=E2=80=99t want to provide = candidate to get the timer started soon.
I think that leaves us with scenarios where the remote doesn=E2=80=99t prov= ide host candidates, and it=E2=80=99s reflexive or relay candidates take fo= r ever because of slow servers.

=C2=A0

Correct, but we can't contr= ol which endpoints will send us an EOC or not. So that will always be a pos= sibility.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Fair enough.



>> I tend to lean towards a) as the simplest option.
>
> Keep in mind that RFC 8445 is generic, so we need to to define what we= mean by "answer". I guess it means some kind of indication that = makes the agent assume that the remote peer has been contacted. In ice-sip-= sdp we can then map that to an SDP answer.

Good point. We basically treat the SDP answer here to be something like an = beginning of ICE, because we don=E2=80=99t have an explicit signal for that= . I think in SDP based worlds there is no need for an extra signal like tha= t. Not sure if other use cases of ICE would benefit from an explicit begin signal.

=C2=A0

The answer in some ways is an e= xplicit begin signal, because it contains the username/password information= needed to start ICE checks.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yeah I didn=E2=80=99t see your = reply before hitting send on mine. Using the availability sounds like a goo= d idea as the minimum gating function/signal.

=C2=A0

Best

=C2=A0 Nils

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice=

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.=

=C2=A0

-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.=

_______________________________= ________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

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Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ice@ietf.org Message-ID: <156395965649.14538.13689879845834344937@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:14:16 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ice-pac-02.txt X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:14:17 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Interactive Connectivity Establishment WG of the IETF. Title : Interactive Connectivity Establishment Patiently Awaiting Connectivity (ICE PAC) Authors : Christer Holmberg Justin Uberti Filename : draft-ietf-ice-pac-02.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2019-07-24 Abstract: During the process of establishing peer-to-peer connectivity, ICE agents can encounter situations where they have no candidate pairs to check, and, as a result, conclude that ICE processing has failed. However, because additional candidate pairs can be discovered during ICE processing, declaring failure at this point may be premature. This document discusses when these situations can occur and proposes a way to avoid premature failure. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ice-pac/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-pac-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ice-pac-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ice-pac-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 24 02:22:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D5A12012E; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihCDeCcZ4CUk; Wed, 24 Jul 2019 02:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFE0F120129; 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Wed, 24 Jul 2019 07:41:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Peter Thatcher Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:41:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: ICE WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ef103d058e6e4e78" Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] WGLC for draft-ietf-ice-pac-02 X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:41:50 -0000 --000000000000ef103d058e6e4e78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We are starting a 3-week Working Group Last Call for ICE PAC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-pac-02 Please review the draft and provide any comments you may have on the document by Aug 14th, 2019. Comments should be sent to the document authors and to the ICE WG list. If you review the document but do not have any comments, please send a note to that effect as well. --000000000000ef103d058e6e4e78 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We are start= ing a 3-week Working Group Last Call for ICE PAC:

=C2=A0

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ice-pac-02

<= p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:13px;color:rgb(33,33,33);line-height:1.38;= margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;margin-left:4pt">

Please review the draft and provide any commen= ts you may have on the document by Aug 14th, 2019.

=C2=A0

Comments should be sent to the d= ocument authors and to the ICE WG list. If you review the document but do n= ot have any comments, please send a note to that effect as well.

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